Wednesday September 22nd, 2021 Canadian Championship TFC vs York United FC...

[Rocket Robin]

Some audio thoughts from today's post game press conference after the York vs Halifax game including comments about how the players are waiting forward to play at BMO.
head coach Jimmy Brennan and defender Dominick Zator.




http://www.rocketrobinsoccerintoronto.com/reports21/21york058.htm

[MikeForbes]

This thread hasn't begun until I see OG's dog.

[OgtheDim]

Game starts at 7:38pm

Notes


A) FIRST game where proof of double vaccination + ID is required.


If you are going & have not already downloaded your second receipt, got to this website https://covid19.ontariohealth.ca/

Not sure about Iphones but people with Androids are by & large downloading the pdf to their phones & saving on their google drive in order to then save it as an icon link on home page.

B) CSA rules apply so likely Canadian content but darned if I can see the rules for the competition on the CSA website anywhere. Going to assume the same "3 players starting must be Canadian" rules but we will see.


C) Took a look at pricing for this. Seems to be priced like the lower tier home games. If you want a single ticket, you will be paying $44 right now for the corners. No single tickets left via SSH. If you want groups of 2, groups of two pay $21 each on the corners if SSH & $33 if not. There are groups of 2 available in the South for $33 each.
So the cheapest ticket for a SSH wanting to go by themselves is $42 for a pair in the corners.
For those wanting the experience, there are Field level seats available for the approximate price of a hotel stay ($177 each)



************************

If we play like we have the last week, we should win but the potential for there to be egos that think we can walk this might be an issue.

[MikeForbes]

I expect Perez is under strict orders to prioritize this tournament as it is our chance at winning anything this year. Also, this is on OneSoccer and not TSN which kind of sucks

[Red CB Toronto]

Having been to a few Blue Jays games now where proof of vaccination was required it went pretty smoothly. They had people down the lines going in checking for it.

The pricing for this game should have been lower, especially when you have to buy at least two tickets in most cases. I have a feeling BMO will be pretty empty, just looking at Ticketmaster. Just do not see a last minute run on tickets.

https://www.ticketmaster.ca/toronto-fc-vs-york-united-fc-toronto-ontario-09-22-2021/event/10005AE8F8EC13BE


Game starts at 7:38pm

Notes


A) FIRST game where proof of double vaccination + ID is required.


If you are going & have not already downloaded your second receipt, got to this website https://covid19.ontariohealth.ca/

Not sure about Iphones but people with Androids are by & large downloading the pdf to their phones & saving on their google drive in order to then save it as an icon link on home page.

B) CSA rules apply so likely Canadian content but darned if I can see the rules for the competition on the CSA website anywhere. Going to assume the same "3 players starting must be Canadian" rules but we will see.


C) Took a look at pricing for this. Seems to be priced like the lower tier home games. If you want a single ticket, you will be paying $44 right now for the corners. No single tickets left via SSH. If you want groups of 2, groups of two pay $21 each on the corners if SSH & $33 if not. There are groups of 2 available in the South for $33 each.
So the cheapest ticket for a SSH wanting to go by themselves is $42 for a pair in the corners.
For those wanting the experience, there are Field level seats available for the approximate price of a hotel stay ($177 each)



************************

If we play like we have the last week, we should win but the potential for there to be egos that think we can walk this might be an issue.

[Redcoe15]

The weather will be factored into all this. Wednesday, match day, there could be as much as 35mm of rain in the GTA!

[MightyDM]

OG I miss the flight tracker. Is there a TTC tracker or something suitable for this match that your Dog can accept?

[Red CB Toronto]

OG I miss the flight tracker. Is there a TTC tracker or something suitable for this match that your Dog can accept?

Someone GPS York's bus LOL, its a 36.7 KM trek from York Lions Stadium to BMO Field.

[OgtheDim]

OG I miss the flight tracker. Is there a TTC tracker or something suitable for this match that your Dog can accept?


TTC Trip planner exists but its not the same...


Dog not impressed

https://twitter.com/OgtheDim/status/1429615426456236033

[Kamp Berg]

It’s funny how things change. A week ago I was genuinely worried about this game and the impact on the club, now I’m expecting the boys to run roughshod over York. Best week all year!

[MightyDM]

It’s funny how things change. A week ago I was genuinely worried about this game and the impact on the club, now I’m expecting the boys to run roughshod over York. Best week all year!


So true!

[Yohan]

Tfc has this way of crushing our hopes.

I wouldn't be surprised if TFC plays too arrogantly and gets beaten by a motivated York.

[MightyDM]

Tfc has this way of crushing our hopes.

I wouldn't be surprised if TFC plays too arrogantly and gets beaten by a motivated York.

Thats also true!

[ag futbol]

If Pacific can beat Vancouver we can also be had. That said, if we take this seriously, we will win.

[jloome]

If Pacific can beat Vancouver we can also be had. That said, if we take this seriously, we will win.

Watching CPL, there’s a lot of individual skill and even decent interplay, but there’s zero intensity compared to MLS and no offensive consistency. Lots of shambolic goalkeeping and defending , too.

If we play with the same intensity as our last two, we should score three or four. If we try to revert to our old low tempo possession, we’ll risk being embarrassed.

[YYZ_Fan]

Anyone else wish this were an away game (plastic pitch and oval track notwithstanding).
I’d be more motivated to attend (and I live downtown).

[OgtheDim]

York U would be something I would consider attending as its way closer to my work & home.

[OgtheDim]

Molinaro confirming that Poz is out for this one.


3 Canadian rule has me thinking Ozo, Laryea & probably Singh. I would hope it would be Peruzza out there in attack but I don't think Perez trusts him enough.

[reggie]

Molinaro confirming that Poz is out for this one.


3 Canadian rule has me thinking Ozo, Laryea & probably Singh. I would hope it would be Peruzza out there in attack but I don't think Perez trusts him enough.
im thinking oso,lareya,shaff.they go full out for the win

[noxx98]

I believe MB is suspended for the next MLS game, so I’d expect him to start as well.

[Graeme]

Molinaro confirming that Poz is out for this one.
I feel like Altidore may end up playing more games than Poz this season...

[Red CB Toronto]

Will we see anyone called up from TFC II to fill out the roster as we have seen in the past in the Canadian Championship especially when playing a lower division team. Malik Johnson, Brian James, Mitch Taintor come to mind.

[jloome]

Will we see anyone called up from TFC II to fill out the roster as we have seen in the past in the Canadian Championship especially when playing a lower division team. Malik Johnson, Brian James, Mitch Taintor come to mind.

I mean.... that list is like the Star Trek away team red shirt when it comes to sticking with TFC, so I'm not sure it's something they'd want.

"I've been called up to TFC for the big Voyageurs Cup game, honey... start packing!"

[Redcoe15]

Anyone heading out to the match tonight, bring your umbrellas and raincoats, cuz it's gonna be a wet one with rain pouring hard at kickoff and continuing throughout the match!

https://www.theweathernetwork.com/ca/hourly-weather-forecast/ontario/toronto

[Auzzy]

Anyone heading out to the match tonight, bring your umbrellas and raincoats, cuz it's gonna be a wet one with rain pouring hard at kickoff and continuing throughout the match!

https://www.theweathernetwork.com/ca/hourly-weather-forecast/ontario/toronto

Do they let you bring in umbrellas?

[Chevy]

If someone gives me odds, I'll bet that we wont' be able to play the second half.

[rydermike]

Anyone heading out to the match tonight, bring your umbrellas and raincoats, cuz it's gonna be a wet one with rain pouring hard at kickoff and continuing throughout the match!

https://www.theweathernetwork.com/ca/hourly-weather-forecast/ontario/toronto

This game is going to end up like the 2011 Champions League match vs Dallas that had to be cancelled during the first half and replayed the next day

https://www.sportsnet.ca/soccer/tfc-delay/

[ag futbol]

If someone gives me odds, I'll bet that we wont' be able to play the second half.
They shouldn’t even bother. Field is going to get torn to shreds.

[Red CB Toronto]

Do they let you bring in umbrellas?

You will not need one, just find a spot under the roof, that will be easy to find tonight.

[ElvistheEvilScotsman]

They shouldn’t even bother. Field is going to get torn to shreds.

I’m sure it already is. 🤣

[nfitz]

Do they let you bring in umbrellas?No.

Looks like we may be getting a bunch of lightening moving through sometime this evening too - probably not enough to cancel the game, but I wouldn't be surprised if there's a delay.

I don't remember a postponed MLS game - did I miss any? One previously in the Voyageurs Cup against, and one in the Champions League (Dallas?). Statistically odd.

[Red CB Toronto]

No.

Looks like we may be getting a bunch of lightening moving through sometime this evening too - probably not enough to cancel the game, but I wouldn't be surprised if there's a delay.

I don't remember a postponed MLS game - did I miss any? One previously in the Voyageurs Cup against, and one in the Champions League (Dallas?). Statistically odd.

Yes, the Vancouver and Dallas cup matches. The Dallas game was played in its entirety the next morning , a 10: 00 kickoff at BMO with maybe a 1,000 or so people in the stands. The Vancouver match was played later in the year as the field as no ready to be played on the next morning.

[Red CB Toronto]

Jim leads his York United side into BMO Field vs. the team where he was their first captain !
https://smartcdn.prod.postmedia.digital/torontosun/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/BRENNAN-e1632165490560.jpeg?quality=90&strip=all&w=564&type=webp

[nfitz]

Yes, the Vancouver and Dallas cup matches. The Dallas game was played in its entirety the next morning , a 10: 00 kickoff at BMO with maybe a 1,000 or so people in the stands. The Vancouver match was played later in the year as the field as no ready to be played on the next morning.I made the 10 AM match! 1,000 would be pushing it. Best match ever, and we all got great seats, and a good early lunch in the Food builing - too bad we lost!

Might not be too many tonight at the end of the game, tonight if the forecast holds.

[OgtheDim]

That is not a B team

[MikeForbes]

Only chance of getting into the CCL is to win this tournament. Go all out for the win. The league is too far gone now.

[portu]

I’m not even ashamed to want this to be a loss. Eventually MLSE has got to take action against this tire fire and beating a third-tier team is not going to help that.

That being said I expect that even this current iteration of the club is gonna run York over.

[rydermike]

CF Montreal just beat HFX Wanderers 3-1. Two of Montreal's goals came after the 89th minute.

[OgtheDim]

For the Boys ONNNN the Field :drinking:

[jloome]

For the Boys ONNNN the Field :drinking:
Tip that noble pint!

[boysblue]

Is this game available online or is OneSoccer the only option? Thx.

[jloome]

Is this game available online or is OneSoccer the only option? Thx.
OneSoccer only

[OgtheDim]

York is...not very good

[benito]

OneSoccer only

it’s also on FuboTv. They have a one week free trial.

[rydermike]

CPL salary cap is $750,000.

The following players on the field make more individually than their roster: Soteldo, Bradley, Gonzalez, Mavinga, Osorio

The following make at least 50-80% of York's entire team: Delgado, Bono, Auro

[alex andrew]

so it will be a tough game for our boys !

[OgtheDim]

Achara has issues making passes

[portu]

For CPL people: Is N’Sa normally this good?

[ensco]

The rain dripping on the mikes is something that plagued Rogers Cable 10.

Until 1978.

[jloome]

Losing this would be disgraceful.

Their winger Habsi (?)looks ok though

Right back N’sa (?) has done well too.

still, feels like we’re playing a usl 1 club.

[MightyDM]

Oso!!!!

[jloome]

Uh good goal. But man, that marking.

[rydermike]

There's 1 for Oso

[MightyDM]

Bradley a nice move to start that.

[rydermike]

I like how the Canadians made that goal. Laryea to Shaff to Osorio

[MightyDM]

Don’t get two yellows Marky…

[jloome]

I remember watching Petrasso look ok in an appearance for Queens Park Rangers. Surprised he didn’t do better. All terrier, i guess.

[jloome]

Lol,shaffs starting to love that curling run to beat the trap.

if he gets that down pat with his speed that boy is going to be dangerous.

[jloome]

Now that was lovely.

[OgtheDim]

Looks like we found our guy on the left who can cross the ball.

[rydermike]

That's 2. Another shaff cross. Another free man in the box

[jloome]

Never have smoke cannisters been so wasted.

[MikeForbes]

Shaff just lighting these scrubs up.

[jloome]

“Tackled fairly” is an interesting euphemism for “hip check”.

[jloome]

Lol, if they keep teeing it up the little guy will get one eventually.

[jloome]

If we get another we should get some subs in, give the starters a rest.

[benito]

The weather looks miserable.

[jloome]

“It’s that final pass that's missing for York” says the incredibly generous commentator.

[MightyDM]

I wish I was there. Missing BMO and the experience. The banter. And the pints

[OgtheDim]

“It’s that final pass that's missing for York” says the incredibly generous commentator.


Yeh, the final pass out of their half of the field.....

[MikeForbes]

“It’s that final pass that's missing for York” says the incredibly generous commentator.

Still better than Gareth Wheeler squeeling "PENALTY?!?!" every tackle in the box.

[jloome]

Yeh, the final pass out of their half of the field.....

In the Montreal Halifax game there was a sublimely silly moment when the Halifax winger dribbled into Montreal’s side of the field … and no teammates followed him, and for a moment Piette looked very confused about why there was a lone Halifax player thirty yards from his teammates, surrounded by impact players.

The CPL will never survive if they continue current spending levels. Pro clubs survive and thrive all over the world, iNcluding some top euro leagues, with crowds of 4,000 to 10,000. Back in the NASL days, Canadian clubs drew the upper end of that regularly.

They don’t have to spend at MLS levels,but they need SOME quality. The grassroots Canadian thing has been tried four times now between Canadian leagues and lower level Cross border leagues. And it just doesn’t work as a growth entity. People have sophisticated knowledge and expectations of football now.

[jloome]

I don’t think Soteldo has passed to Shaff once this whole game.

[jloome]

Also, the notion from some CPL fans that it is at the same level as USL-C is just delusional. It’s barely USL1.

[jloome]

Lol, marky determined to bury one from distance for the first time in history.

[portu]

JMR has (a) gotten taller, (b) hit the weight room, or (c) both

[portu]

JMR does not play like a kid who has sat on the bench all season with something to prove

[rydermike]

JMR has (a) gotten taller, (b) hit the weight room, or (c) both
Or just natural aging. He just turned 17.

[jloome]

JMR does not play like a kid who has sat on the bench all season with something to prove
Growth spurt maybe making him a bit awkward. Happens to the best of Em (Steven Gerard among others had a real tough spurt year).

[rydermike]

Wish they let JMR take it

[OgtheDim]

That'll do, Soteldo

That'll do

[portu]

Growth spurt maybe making him a bit awkward. Happens to the best of Em (Steven Gerard among others had a real tough spurt year).
I’m also desperate for him to turn out to be our Alphonso Davies who runs for days, so prob a harsh assessment anyway

[jloome]

Okello is freaking enormous.

[jloome]

That…looked a little late, that pass. Noble must’ve checked his run slightly

[MightyDM]

Soteldo had a big smile for JMR

[MightyDM]

Also, has Oso ever scored a header before? MB showed his quality tonight.

[MikeForbes]

Okello has enormous potential once everyone figures out what his best position is.

[jloome]

That was fun. Hope it doesn’t lower their focus for playing a team that can fight back.

[MightyDM]

OKello looks incredibly awkward. But I don’t think he is.

[jloome]

Wheelers now upping himself for predicting this outcome. Shocker!

[MikeForbes]

Wheelers now upping himself for predicting this outcome. Shocker!

Lol. So smart for picking that team from a superior league that he also gets a cheque from.

[rydermike]

Semi-finals are supposed to be the 28th or 29th according to Wikipedia, but we play Cincinnati on the 29th (and Colorado on the 25th). Either it'll be different day, or we're going to have two separate lineups for back-to-back day games

[portu]

When you look at the young talent at the club it can only make you pissed that it’s taking so long to sort out a long-term solution for a manager. I want to say Okello will be a great player, but honestly I don’t trust this club to do him or any of our players right.

[Gringo Starr]

I just got back from the game and will say that as bad as this season was I will give this line up a lot of credit for showing up and taking it seriously. That rain sucked and having to run into it for the first half could not have been fun, would have been easy to take it easy or mailed it in but the effort was there. The rest was what it should have been, probably the most enjoyable game all season. We win when it rains!

[MightyDM]

I just got back from the game and will say that as bad as this season was I will give this line up a lot of credit for showing up and taking it seriously. That rain sucked and having to run into it for the first half could not have been fun, would have been easy to take it easy or mailed it in but the effort was there. The rest was what it should have been, probably the most enjoyable game all season. We win when it rains!

True supporter! Awesome

[James17930]

I just got back from the game and will say that as bad as this season was I will give this line up a lot of credit for showing up and taking it seriously. That rain sucked and having to run into it for the first half could not have been fun, would have been easy to take it easy or mailed it in but the effort was there. The rest was what it should have been, probably the most enjoyable game all season. We win when it rains!

:drum::flare::drum::flare::drum::flare::drum:

[jloome]

The one thing that worried me tonight was that our movement as a unit seemed a lot more loose. Against Nashville, they practically looked like the Radio City Rockettes at some points, they were moving so well together in a block.

I suppose that's natural when the team you're playing is full of defensive holes but it was a bit disconcerting. I know the MLS season is done, but it's good for the players' morale to get as many points as possible.

We're not getting the first draft pick anyway due to expansion, and if Manning keeps Curtis after the last two year, he'd be leaving soon himself , he'd be so lacking in judgement.

[Auzzy]

I just got back from the game and will say that as bad as this season was I will give this line up a lot of credit for showing up and taking it seriously. That rain sucked and having to run into it for the first half could not have been fun, would have been easy to take it easy or mailed it in but the effort was there. The rest was what it should have been, probably the most enjoyable game all season. We win when it rains!

Yup fun night at BMO Field tonight.

Yes the guys were working hard, even Soteldo sprinting all over the place to high-press.

[SteveM]

It was a miserable night at BMO weather wise..the rain just kept on falling...just wish we had a proper ground with a roof...great to see Bradley come to the south end to say thanks.....the imbretti did a great job lifting everyone's spirits.

[Red CB Toronto]

Semi-finals are supposed to be the 28th or 29th according to Wikipedia, but we play Cincinnati on the 29th (and Colorado on the 25th). Either it'll be different day, or we're going to have two separate lineups for back-to-back day games

It is not just on wikipedia, its on the schedule the CSA released. All three of TFC, Valour and Cavalry have league games on Wednesday, September 29th. I assume the CPL matches can easily be moved. It is the Reds Cincy one I wonder about. The Reds are off the international break but Cincinnati play on the 9th. BMO is booked for the Canada game on the 13th. I am sure their is a solution but I wonder what it is.

https://images.mlssoccer.com/image/private/t_keep-aspect-ratio-e-mobile/f_png/prd-league/zdfaulxlkbxugmhhyfrt.png

[Red CB Toronto]

3, 651, the lowest announced attendance for TFC match at BMO Field in club history. Not surprising considering the weather but also this match was not priced to sell in any way. The cheap seats for general sale were over $30. Just looking at Ticketmaster showed that.

[nfitz]

3, 651, the lowest announced attendance for TFC match at BMO Field in club history.They announced 500 at the Championship League against Dallas in 2011.

[Red CB Toronto]

They announced 500 at the Championship League against Dallas in 2011.

Did they actually announce an attendance for that match, which was played at 10 am in the morning. I was at it and they were not really taking tickets at the gate the next morning. They just opened the gate and everyone was in the lower east side of the stadium.

[Red CB Toronto]

Wednesday night reminded me of this rain soaked match that was eventually postponed vs. Vancouver back in the day.

https://toronto.citynews.ca/wp-content/blogs.dir/sites/10/2011/05/f6627d074355bdcaafa223b9db6a-1024x682.jpeg

[nfitz]

Did they actually announce an attendance for that match, which was played at 10 am in the morning. I was at it and they were not really taking tickets at the gate the next morning. They just opened the gate and everyone was in the lower east side of the stadium.That was my recollection, but it has been a decade.

The Toronto Star from the following day (page S8) says about 500. I tried to paste in the article, but I think I crashed the forum for a few minutes. :)

[Bushmancan]

3, 651, the lowest announced attendance for TFC match at BMO Field in club history. Not surprising considering the weather but also this match was not priced to sell in any way. The cheap seats for general sale were over $30. Just looking at Ticketmaster showed that.

Management are so arrogant. Two Toronto clubs and they cannot draw more. It wasn’t the weather, it wasn’t the pandemic. #fireCurtis #fireManning

The boys worked the entire game and I liked Soteldo in the middle.

[OgtheDim]

Management are so arrogant. Two Toronto clubs and they cannot draw more. It wasn’t the weather, it wasn’t the pandemic. #fireCurtis #fireManning

The boys worked the entire game and I liked Soteldo in the middle.


The weather, mid week & a crap TFC team during Covid.


Take look at the hardest of hard core in the South - 10% of what it was in the last few weeks - people didn't go.

This isn't on management. They could have made the seats $5 each & people still wouldn't have gone.

[ensco]

I didn’t go because of the pandemic. Vax passports will help but activities with groups need to be “worth it”. Watching our dreadful last place team isn’t exactly compelling.

[Bushmancan]

[QUOTE=OgtheDim;1945003]The weather, mid week & a crap TFC team during Covid.


Take look at the hardest of hard core in the South - 10% of what it was in the last few weeks - people didn't go.

This isn't on management. They could have made the seats $5 each & people still wouldn't have gone.[/]


I respectfully disagree sure it sucks out there… but

What did they do to promote this?

We got our first team and they played hard. With the game on OneSoccer, it was a perfect opportunity for SSHs to give out their seats (I bought a pair and gave it to my two Nieces) They had a ball! And will go again.

That is what I mean by arrogance. Manning and Curtis have been crickets trying to fly under the radar to live another day. Posting easy Social Media lob balls. We cannot let them escape this complete screw up. The team will play much better for the remainder of the season. That is not enough for Curtis at least to keep his job…. imho.

[reggie]

they should of given these tickets to the SSH that have kept there money iin there accounts,these donkeys have no clue.i was kinda hoping for a loss llast night just so there is no doubt to get rid of these clowns.

[jabbronies]

Also, has Oso ever scored a header before? MB showed his quality tonight.

He was playing behind a Delgao/Oso mid. This is an underrated/underused pairing.

[613reppingTFC]

I didn’t go because of the pandemic. Vax passports will help but activities with groups need to be “worth it”. Watching our dreadful last place team isn’t exactly compelling.

For anyone that did end up going. I realize it wasn't a large crowd but how was getting in with the new requirements of the Vax passport and ID and such?

[jabbronies]

I didn’t go because of the pandemic. Vax passports will help but activities with groups need to be “worth it”. Watching our dreadful last place team isn’t exactly compelling.

This.

[noxx98]

For anyone that did end up going. I realize it wasn't a large crowd but how was getting in with the new requirements of the Vax passport and ID and such?
It was fine, but is tough on the staff. You need to zoom in on your form so they can see your name and then scroll down to show that it says double vaxed. It may slow things down when it’s a full house. There really should be a better technology solution at this point.

[Yohan]

I live in Europe now.
I have a QR code with vaccine info.

Takes like 5 seconds to scan

[MightyDM]

I didn’t go because of the pandemic. Vax passports will help but activities with groups need to be “worth it”. Watching our dreadful last place team isn’t exactly compelling.

I went to the first Canada game, but became increasingly uncomfortable as the match progressed, and supporters got into it - many with masks off. I haven’t been back for Canada or TFC and won’t this year. Will use the money MLSE has in my account to renew seasons for next year.

[MightyDM]

I live in Europe now.
I have a QR code with vaccine info.

Takes like 5 seconds to scan

So does BC. Why doesn’t Ontario just use their app?

[Ultra & Proud]

So does BC. Why doesn’t Ontario just use their app?
Arrogance.

[wopchop]

Arrogance.
Ontario always needs to have a Made In Ontario solution.

[OgtheDim]

So does BC. Why doesn’t Ontario just use their app?


Because they decided to create a new one in Ontario - even though they had one in January.

Blue license plates come to mind...

[Gringo Starr]

For anyone that did end up going. I realize it wasn't a large crowd but how was getting in with the new requirements of the Vax passport and ID and such?

I had a photocopy of my vax receipts and DL in hand, took all of 10 seconds for the checker to verify, they had extra staff to do it, checked before getting to the metal detectors, not much of a hassle at all

[Gringo Starr]

The weather, mid week & a crap TFC team during Covid.


Take look at the hardest of hard core in the South - 10% of what it was in the last few weeks - people didn't go.

This isn't on management. They could have made the seats $5 each & people still wouldn't have gone.

People in the south seemed to migrate to 111 in the second half, the roof there works better than the spoiler over the south stand

[SoccMan2]

Something is happening here , yes the team is crap but my God 600 people at a TFC game ? Looking at the next home game less than what 1000 tickets sold it seems. This is getting beyond embarrassing and very concerning for the future of this club , forget about all the excuses. These are all excuses I’ve heard all before in my long history of following pro soccer here in Toronto. Excuses I heard before past teams went to that graveyard of pro soccer that many former Toronto pro soccer teams are now resting in that graveyard. Let’s hope I’m wrong and all these excuses are the reason that no one is showing up.

[nfitz]

For anyone that did end up going. I realize it wasn't a large crowd but how was getting in with the new requirements of the Vax passport and ID and such?Didn't really add any time. It just added a third sequential inspection, with extra staff doing it.

So instead of just the ticket check, there's now the ticket check, metal detector, and first the vaxx check. All by different staff.

[OgtheDim]

FWIW - announced crowd was 3651

[nfitz]

For anyone that did end up going. I realize it wasn't a large crowd but how was getting in with the new requirements of the Vax passport and ID and such?Didn't really add any time. It just added a third sequential inspection, with extra staff doing it.

So instead of just the ticket check, there's now the ticket check, metal detector, and first the vaxx check. All by different staff.


I didn’t go because of the pandemic. Vax passports will help but activities with groups need to be “worth it”. Watching our dreadful last place team isn’t exactly compelling.It wasn't a league game. This is a more exciting cup game. Win or go home.


People in the south seemed to migrate to 111 in the second half, the roof there works better than the spoiler over the south standFirst time the roof at the south end has failed so miserable. Depends which way the wind is blowing.

211 was bone dry!

[Redcoe15]

Something is happening here , yes the team is crap but my God 600 people at a TFC game ? Looking at the next home game less than what 1000 tickets sold it seems. This is getting beyond embarrassing and very concerning for the future of this club , forget about all the excuses. These are all excuses I’ve heard all before in my long history of following pro soccer here in Toronto. Excuses I heard before past teams went to that graveyard of pro soccer that many former Toronto pro soccer teams are now resting in that graveyard. Let’s hope I’m wrong and all these excuses are the reason that no one is showing up.
Our side was competing for the MLS Cup just two years ago, our third trip to the Cup in four years.

The weather was total crap yesterday, with rain coming down all day, and a chill in the air we hadn't felt since spring. Not to mention a lot of hesitancy out there with the pandemic still going on.

We'll be fine. This club ain't goin' nowhere!

[SirBobSaget]

Our side was competing for the MLS Cup just two years ago, our third trip to the Cup in four years.

The weather was total crap yesterday, with rain coming down all day, and a chill in the air we hadn't felt since spring. Not to mention a lot of hesitancy out there with the pandemic still going on.

We'll be fine. This club ain't goin' nowhere!

We have supported teams that were down but had potential. This current team, no one has faith in management, there's an interim coach that hasn't improved the results plus all the old veteran players keep getting trudged out so not exactly any hope for the future if the young players don't even play.

So whats the point? This management team that has crashed this team will continue to make mistakes while continuing to trot out the veteran lineup. They're not building to anything.

[Auzzy]

I had a photocopy of my vax receipts and DL in hand, took all of 10 seconds for the checker to verify, they had extra staff to do it, checked before getting to the metal detectors, not much of a hassle at all


Exactly, same for me, no problem & quick. Only minor issue was they didn't have enough light for the vax checkers when I came in to the main (north) gate, so he had a hard time reading my printed certificate. Hopefully they'll have better lighting for them if/when the crowd is bigger.

I plan to go to all games from now on. I enjoyed it last night, the weather made it an adventure. We were moving around the west side to stay dry as the wind shifted.

In terms of not going because of the pandemic, and activities with groups needing to be worth it: you're not going to find a better physically-distanced event! You could pick any seat you want, and sit 30 metres away from anyone else if you wanted to!

RE why don't we have anything useful for vax certificates yet, Ogthedim nailed it: they had something ready for that in January, part of the vaccine booking portal, but they killed it. Oh and concerning needing a "made in Ontario" solution, that's a new thing. For the vaccine booking portal they could have had a much better system, literally made in Ontario by an Ontario company. Nova Scotia used it and it was great. Instead Ontario opted for a crap system from the US which totally failed under load, was missing a ton of important features, and was bypassed by a significant portion of the Ontario vaccine bookings (pharmacies; hospitals; some public health units, etc.) leading to an uncoordinated mess.

Ottawa-designed vaccine system praised in N.S., envied in Ontario | Ottawa Citizen (https://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-news/ottawa-designed-vaccine-system-praised-in-nova-scotia-envied-in-chaotic-ontario)
https://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-news/ottawa-designed-vaccine-system-praised-in-nova-scotia-envied-in-chaotic-ontario

[OgtheDim]

I would say this - based on my experience with Ontario provincial bureaucracies over the last 20 years, the decision to say "no thank you, we will create our own" to an offered solution is endemic to the public service. They simply do not believe anything can be good unless they set the variables & protocols & guidelines for creation first.

[ag futbol]

I would say this - based on my experience with Ontario provincial bureaucracies over the last 20 years, the decision to say "no thank you, we will create our own" to an offered solution is endemic to the public service. They simply do not believe anything can be good unless they set the variables & protocols & guidelines for creation first.
I spent most of my pandemic days in Nova Scotia. I province I lived for most of my life before locating to Ontario.

For context, the healthcare system on the East Coast is paper thin and the government historically has been beyond myopic, budget strapped, unable to change, and beholden to a few wealthy families that dominate the region.

I am shocked how much better the NS government handled this whole process vs. Ontario. I could book my vaccine appointment online or over the phone through a single, centrally run database. I had full disclosure about which vaccine I would get and getting to a local location was very achievable. There were basically zero hiccups with booking and it didn’t take a lot of time or energy to do so. My vaccine record is available online and very easy to obtain.

How does Ontario, a much wealthier province, screw things up so royally? I can’t get over how disorganized it is here, now that I’ve moved back.

[Canary10]

I would say this - based on my experience with Ontario provincial bureaucracies over the last 20 years, the decision to say "no thank you, we will create our own" to an offered solution is endemic to the public service. They simply do not believe anything can be good unless they set the variables & protocols & guidelines for creation first.

A big part of it is the rules around external procurement. You can't simply say, company XX already designed a great product, let's go with it. That would be an untendered contract, and other companies (often the public and opposition parties too) would go nuts. Basically any external contract has to go out for bids except in very very rare circumstances that are extremely difficult to justify. All the scrutiny on government spending from the last 20 years has, somewhat ironically, hamstrung governments from being able to make quick (and sensible) decisions.

[Kamp Berg]

I would say this - based on my experience with Ontario provincial bureaucracies over the last 20 years, the decision to say "no thank you, we will create our own" to an offered solution is endemic to the public service. They simply do not believe anything can be good unless they set the variables & protocols & guidelines for creation first.

My experience has shown the same, plus add in some nepotism and personal gain.

[ensco]

A big part of it is the rules around external procurement. You can't simply say, company XX already designed a great product, let's go with it. That would be an untendered contract, and other companies (often the public and opposition parties too) would go nuts. Basically any external contract has to go out for bids except in very very rare circumstances that are extremely difficult to justify. All the scrutiny on government spending from the last 20 years has, somewhat ironically, hamstrung governments from being able to make quick (and sensible) decisions.

I know something about federal procurement (not provincial). The feds have solved for this easily by having accelerated RFP processes and evaluation systems that give high marks to solutions that are already implemented in other jurisdictions.

[MightyDM]

Exactly, same for me, no problem & quick. Only minor issue was they didn't have enough light for the vax checkers when I came in to the main (north) gate, so he had a hard time reading my printed certificate. Hopefully they'll have better lighting for them if/when the crowd is bigger.

I plan to go to all games from now on. I enjoyed it last night, the weather made it an adventure. We were moving around the west side to stay dry as the wind shifted.

In terms of not going because of the pandemic, and activities with groups needing to be worth it: you're not going to find a better physically-distanced event! You could pick any seat you want, and sit 30 metres away from anyone else if you wanted to!

RE why don't we have anything useful for vax certificates yet, Ogthedim nailed it: they had something ready for that in January, part of the vaccine booking portal, but they killed it. Oh and concerning needing a "made in Ontario" solution, that's a new thing. For the vaccine booking portal they could have had a much better system, literally made in Ontario by an Ontario company. Nova Scotia used it and it was great. Instead Ontario opted for a crap system from the US which totally failed under load, was missing a ton of important features, and was bypassed by a significant portion of the Ontario vaccine bookings (pharmacies; hospitals; some public health units, etc.) leading to an uncoordinated mess.

Ottawa-designed vaccine system praised in N.S., envied in Ontario | Ottawa Citizen (https://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-news/ottawa-designed-vaccine-system-praised-in-nova-scotia-envied-in-chaotic-ontario)
https://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-news/ottawa-designed-vaccine-system-praised-in-nova-scotia-envied-in-chaotic-ontario

Love the sentiment Auzzy. I think that spirit is what we all have felt at BMO. And if we are back to “we only win in the rain” so be it.

I’m still missing out of an aubandance of caution but regret it for exactly that reason

[MightyDM]

A big part of it is the rules around external procurement. You can't simply say, company XX already designed a great product, let's go with it. That would be an untendered contract, and other companies (often the public and opposition parties too) would go nuts. Basically any external contract has to go out for bids except in very very rare circumstances that are extremely difficult to justify. All the scrutiny on government spending from the last 20 years has, somewhat ironically, hamstrung governments from being able to make quick (and sensible) decisions.

Add in that when you have an erratic premier like we do, the public service will do everything absolutely by the book so it doesn’t get hung out to dry in the event of a problem - they know they would be blamed and on the front page of the Sun, not him, if they find a way around the rules and something goes wrong.

[Canary10]

I know something about federal procurement (not provincial). The feds have solved for this easily by having accelerated RFP processes and evaluation systems that give high marks to solutions that are already implemented in other jurisdictions.

There are accelerated processes provincially as well. And something implemented in another jurisdiction is a common part of all evaluation. That alone wouldn't be enough to go to a sole source contract. I saw one where the technology was so specialized only one supplier in North America had ever produced it, it was working well in one jurisdiction, and the government still wouldn't go to a sole source contract.

[glaze]

The crowd issues this year are simply due to Toronto not socially recovering from Covid. Until the Leafs show up, no events are really in huge demand.
Remember, MLSE is charging full price for a team that arrived here in last place. The social aspect.of the pre game beers is not there. Some fans arent eager to jump on the TTC yet. And this game was midweek, vs a CCL club, in a downpour.
If renewals really drop off, then there will be cause for concern. But we also had seasons where we couldnt give tix away. As supporters, even we have not been engaged this season. Aside from gameday threads there's not much life on here. We didnt bother with a members scarf. This isn't a criticism, just naturally people are going to find it hard to be excited in the last 2 years.

[spe18]

The crowd issues this year are simply due to Toronto not socially recovering from Covid. Until the Leafs show up, no events are really in huge demand.
Remember, MLSE is charging full price for a team that arrived here in last place. The social aspect.of the pre game beers is not there. Some fans arent eager to jump on the TTC yet. And this game was midweek, vs a CCL club, in a downpour.
If renewals really drop off, then there will be cause for concern. But we also had seasons where we couldnt give tix away. As supporters, even we have not been engaged this season. Aside from gameday threads there's not much life on here. We didnt bother with a members scarf. This isn't a criticism, just naturally people are going to find it hard to be excited in the last 2 years.

Uhhh.....the Jays???

[Bushmancan]

The crowd issues this year are simply due to Toronto not socially recovering from Covid. Until the Leafs show up, no events are really in huge demand.
Remember, MLSE is charging full price for a team that arrived here in last place. The social aspect.of the pre game beers is not there. Some fans arent eager to jump on the TTC yet. And this game was midweek, vs a CCL club, in a downpour.
If renewals really drop off, then there will be cause for concern. But we also had seasons where we couldnt give tix away. As supporters, even we have not been engaged this season. Aside from gameday threads there's not much life on here. We didnt bother with a members scarf. This isn't a criticism, just naturally people are going to find it hard to be excited in the last 2 years.

I partially agree, the Canada v Panama game on the 13th is mid week and will be full, rain or shine. Capacity originally 15,000 and now 21,000, if the Reds were playing mildly competitive, more would have attended.

Back to the Canada game, which i actually have an issue with. With the new Vax status access rules, I got 8 seats for people i know well and are all double vaxed. I chose a spot that was somewhat distanced, no one to our left and no one behind in 118.

Adding the 6,000 additional people concerns me in that it wasn’t part of the things to consider when i bought my seats.

I am actually OK with expanding the capacity and still may have gone but dammit, they have to stop changing the rules in mid process.

You can’t teach stupid…

[Auzzy]

That's a good point about the higher demand for Canada games (and about changing rules mid process).

RE poor TFC attendance, in addition to many of the issues mentioned here (crap weather; crap team; mid-week extra game against unknown team; not everyone feeling comfortable going out)...

I think pricing is a major issue. I picked up a single ticket from TicketMaster shortly before the York United game, after other options fell through, then went in and sat with friends. I thought $30 for the upper west corner (section 219) for a single one-off ticket was OK but not great.

But where my friends were sitting (Section 121 dark grey) was $122 a ticket, even shortly before the game, and a ton were available. I mean, come on, that's ridiculous.

Actually I also have a question: for a season ticket holder who left their credit on their account, how much would they be paying per seat if they pick up tickets to a game via their account, take the dark grey for example? I'm hoping they wouldn't be paying the same as one-off purchases directly from Ticketmaster?

But even if those SSH prices are lower, that points to another massive issue: the fact that SSH aren't required to take tickets to every game, and just pick up and pay for seats from game to game. That removes most of the base SSH demand from a game, as people have to opt in. They will be more affected by all the other negative factors mentioned here than if they had already paid for the game anyway via their season seat. And that won't change until next season.

[ensco]

^This is core to why I voted that Manning will be gone at year end.

There is no way he can present a credible plan that doesn’t involve massive losses for 2022 and beyond. He either has to cut prices massively or see big SSH losses. (This is what ultimately got Anselmi in 2012 too btw.)

Manning may have been a “Moneyball” guy at the beginning but now he is the custodian of a high spend strategy that completely falls apart with this level of ineptitude.

[jabbronies]

But even if those SSH prices are lower, that points to another massive issue: the fact that SSH aren't required to take tickets to every game, and just pick up and pay for seats from game to game. That removes most of the base SSH demand from a game, as people have to opt in. They will be more affected by all the other negative factors mentioned here than if they had already paid for the game anyway via their season seat. And that won't change until next season.

Maybe I'm not following what you are saying.

Are you saying TFC should've forced X number of tickets on to SSH's this season? I guess if the SSH didn't accept, they would lose their SSH status?

[Ultra & Proud]

^This is core to why I voted that Manning will be gone at year end.

There is no way he can present a credible plan that doesn’t involve massive losses for 2022 and beyond. He either has to cut prices massively or see big SSH losses. (This is what ultimately got Anselmi in 2012 too btw.)

Or he could do what we did in years past; sign big names to sell memberships instead of selling them by winning. Giovinco was step one in seat selling without concern for whatever we plan on doing next season because he will sell seats no matter what. Next would be a manager like Pirlo. Some big name that looks good in promo material without any thought on how and if it would work.

[ag futbol]

^This is core to why I voted that Manning will be gone at year end.

There is no way he can present a credible plan that doesn’t involve massive losses for 2022 and beyond. He either has to cut prices massively or see big SSH losses. (This is what ultimately got Anselmi in 2012 too btw.)

Manning may have been a “Moneyball” guy at the beginning but now he is the custodian of a high spend strategy that completely falls apart with this level of ineptitude.
But does the board buy into a “pandemic” excuse enough to save his position?

He’s going to say he won everything in 2017 (not his work), went to MLS cup finals in 2019, and was in the supporters shield race in 2020 (i have never seen a team look so unimpressive and win so consistently).

Personally, I would say: look at Seattle, look at our team, you have an even larger budget and nowhere near the same results, get out.

[ensco]

Or he could do what we did in years past; sign big names to sell memberships instead of selling them by winning. Giovinco was step one in seat selling without concern for whatever we plan on doing next season because he will sell seats no matter what. Next would be a manager like Pirlo. Some big name that looks good in promo material without any thought on how and if it would work.

The name I have always wondered about returning in a much bigger position is Benoit Cheyrou.

[Ultra & Proud]

The name I have always wondered about returning in a much bigger position is Benoit Cheyrou.

But that one is sensible and not as big a splash maker in the mainstream. I bet they're all about PR regarding all upcoming moves.

[Kamp Berg]

The name I have always wondered about returning in a much bigger position is Benoit Cheyrou.

Unfortunately it seems as though that ship has sailed. He took a job to return home to France after already accepting a job with TFC. I doubt he returns here unless he doesn’t have any other options.

[ensco]

Unfortunately it seems as though that ship has sailed. He took a job to return home to France after already accepting a job with TFC. I doubt he returns here unless he doesn’t have any other options.

Not exactly. Cheyrou made millions, he doesn’t need options.

He always struck me as a future manager in terms of temperament, intellect etc.

TFC gave him a chance to work his way up from the bottom as an academy coach.

Cheyrou instead went back to France and became an occasional TV commentator there - that recently became a regular national gig on Amazon Prime, who broadcast Ligue 1 there.

If you think TV is a pathway to management, Benoit is doing it on a heck of a bigger stage than Caldwell or whomever.

[Kamp Berg]

Not exactly. Cheyrou made millions, he doesn’t need options.

He always struck me as a future manager in terms of temperament, intellect etc.

TFC gave him a chance to work his way up from the bottom as an academy coach.

Cheyrou instead went back to France and became an occasional TV commentator there - that recently became a regular national gig on Amazon Prime, who broadcast Ligue 1 there.

If you think TV is a pathway to management, Benoit is doing it on a heck of a bigger stage than Caldwell or whomever.

I wasn’t saying anything disparaging about Cheyrou, or the path he chose. My point was that I don’t think he wants to be in Toronto, and frankly I can’t blame him, I’d choose anywhere in France too, especially as a millionaire.

[reggie]

I wasn’t saying anything disparaging about Cheyrou, or the path he chose. My point was that I don’t think he wants to be in Toronto, and frankly I can’t blame him, I’d choose anywhere in France too, especially as a millionaire.

yes TORONTO is such a shit hole ...give me a break,there are alot of shit holes in france,

[nfitz]

The crowd issues this year are simply due to Toronto not socially recovering from Covid. Until the Leafs show up, no events are really in huge demand.Even when the Leafs are in last place with no hope, tickets become reasonable on the secondary market. And if not all pre-sold might actually start seeing games not sold out.

TFC is suffering because they didn't pre-sell many of the tickets a year ago, as usual (well they did, but then they cancelled it - which may be a bonanza for fickle fair-weather fans - and those quite reasonably discouraged by Covid. There's a lot of fully vaxxed people avoiding such events currently - especially for less essential stuff.

[Kamp Berg]

yes TORONTO is such a shit hole ...give me a break,there are alot of shit holes in france,

Lol, I never said Toronto is a shithole! I said I would choose anywhere in France over Toronto, mainly for lifestyle, but also the environment, especially as a millionaire. There are ‘shithole’ parts in every country and city, including France and Canada. So when I said anywhere, I meant anywhere that’s not a ‘shithole’ in France, compared to anywhere not a ‘shithole’ in Toronto. Some people don’t care about lifestyle or environment, some people do, some people just want to make lots of money, some don’t, it doesn’t make anywhere a shithole.

[ensco]

I wasn’t saying anything disparaging about Cheyrou, or the path he chose. My point was that I don’t think he wants to be in Toronto, and frankly I can’t blame him, I’d choose anywhere in France too, especially as a millionaire.

You may well be right

[nfitz]

So when I said anywhere, I meant anywhere that’s not a ‘shithole’ in France ...I thought 'shithole' in France was code for too many immigrants. I'd prefer Toronto.

[Kamp Berg]

I thought 'shithole' in France was code for too many immigrants. I'd prefer Toronto.

There is plenty of prejudice in Canada, don’t kid yourself. Slavery only ended here 30 years before the US and the racism has been continuous since then, and we continue to try to irradiate our native population, as well as plenty of anti-immigrant sentiment, hardly things to be proud of. Canada does have the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, I’ll give you that, but those rights and freedoms have only really started to be reflected in society en masse post gen-x, same as in France and most other Western European countries.

[Oldtimer]

I've lived in France, most French think Canada is a much preferable place to live than France. Of course things like family ties (very important for the French) can make living in France preferable for them individually.

Tourists tend to have a very idealized view of France that does not match reality, even though many things like the food are nice. Dealing with just the bureaucracy for example can be a frustrating experience that few Canadians can imagine how much harder it is than Canada.

[Kamp Berg]

I've lived in France, most French think Canada is a much preferable place to live than France. Of course things like family ties (very important for the French) can make living in France preferable for them individually.

Tourists tend to have a very idealized view of France that does not match reality, even though many things like the food are nice. Dealing with just the bureaucracy for example can be a frustrating experience that few Canadians can imagine how much harder it is than Canada.

My opinion is based on my values and preferences, just like everyone else. There are lots of people who find somewhere other than where they were born more suitable to their temperament or lifestyle. Objectively speaking though, there is a reason why France is the most visited country in the world. Plus my experience living in Europe is that lifestyle is of paramount importance, I have not found that living in Canada or the US.

[Auzzy]

Maybe I'm not following what you are saying.

Are you saying TFC should've forced X number of tickets on to SSH's this season? I guess if the SSH didn't accept, they would lose their SSH status?

No I don't think they should have forced SSH to take a certain number of tickets, with all the uncertainty. I'm just saying the fact that we aren't forced to take tickets means that attendance is much more fickle this year than in a regular season. Bad weather, bad performance by TFC, uninteresting opponent, and/or concerns about getting downtown & home again on a weeknight (etc.) each lead to more impact on attendance than in a regular season when SSH have already paid no matter what. In a normal season more SSH will show up because they have paid anyway.

[nfitz]

There is plenty of prejudice in Canada, don’t kid yourself.There is - I never said otherwise. But the anti-Muslim prejudice in particular in France seems worse to me. Marine La Pen and the National Front got as much as 34% in a recent presidential election - that's more of the vote than Trudeau's party just got! The National Front has a long history of holocaust denial and Islamaphobia - there's nothing comparable in main-stream politics in Canada. It's disingenuous to imply Canada is as prejudiced as France! When was the last time you heard about racist chants at soccer games in Canada? Good grief, in this story the head of French Football Federation favours homophobic chants - https://www.reuters.com/article/us-soccer-france-homophobia-idUSKCN1VV1Z3


Slavery only ended here 30 years before the US and the racism has been continuous since then ...Not sure the relevance of that. In living memory France was still sending minorities to the gas chamber - sure, they weren't leading the effort - but no shortage of collaborators. France ended slavery in France in the 1840s, but it continued in French Africa into the 1900s!

Ontario was the first jurisdiction in the empire in 1797 to end the import of slaves and free children of slaves. There were never many here (most were brought by US loyalist refugees in the 1790s, leading to the law. There were very few at all left by 1833 when slavery was ended throughout the British Empire - over 70 years before all of the French empire!

[Kamp Berg]

There is - I never said otherwise. But the anti-Muslim prejudice in particular in France seems worse to me. Marine La Pen and the National Front got as much as 34% in a recent presidential election - that's more of the vote than Trudeau's party just got! The National Front has a long history of holocaust denial and Islamaphobia - there's nothing comparable in main-stream politics in Canada. It's disingenuous to imply Canada is as prejudiced as France! When was the last time you heard about racist chants at soccer games in Canada? Good grief, in this story the head of French Football Federation favours homophobic chants - https://www.reuters.com/article/us-soccer-france-homophobia-idUSKCN1VV1Z3

Not sure the relevance of that. In living memory France was still sending minorities to the gas chamber - sure, they weren't leading the effort - but no shortage of collaborators. France ended slavery in France in the 1840s, but it continued in French Africa into the 1900s!

Ontario was the first jurisdiction in the empire in 1797 to end the import of slaves and free children of slaves. There were never many here (most were brought by US loyalist refugees in the 1790s, leading to the law. There were very few at all left by 1833 when slavery was ended throughout the British Empire - over 70 years before all of the French empire!

If you want to believe that Canada, with its ongoing genocide/occupation is somehow better because you have some facts that support how you feel, then so be it, but I could easily argue that it’s purely exceptionalism. What I will say, is that all I said was I prefer Europe and could understand how someone else does too. If you want to take that statement as a challenge to your identity or believe in Nationalism, that has nothing to fo with me or my preferences. I’m here to talk about soccer, I’m really not interested in discussing anything else or being accused of expressing sentiments I never expressed.

[reggie]

If you want to believe that Canada, with its ongoing genocide/occupation is somehow better because you have some facts that support how you feel, then so be it, but I could easily argue that it’s purely exceptionalism. What I will say, is that all I said was I prefer Europe and could understand how someone else does too. If you want to take that statement as a challenge to your identity or believe in Nationalism, that has nothing to fo with me or my preferences. I’m here to talk about soccer, I’m really not interested in discussing anything else or being accused of expressing sentiments I never expressed.

yes lets talk futbol. cheyrou was offered a better job and he left,he actually liked it here and would prob still be here if we didnt have donkeys running the club

[jloome]

There is - I never said otherwise. But the anti-Muslim prejudice in particular in France seems worse to me.


Having lived extensively in Europe, Africa and Canada... it's incomparable. I mean, you literally can't compare anywhere, because attitudes to DISCUSSING personal beliefs and biases are radically different in north America to elsewhere.


People in N. America are taught to not discuss what they think and feel nearly as openly as in other countries. Most Americans, in particular, that I've met who spend any time in England or France think people are incredibly rude, incredibly biased and range from slightly annoying to overbearingly pretentious. But having grown up there, it's just that there is little to none of what they used to call "southern gentility", or "insincerity to be polite and preserve harmony." Political correctness, basically.


Having interviewed thousands upon thousands of Canadians over a quarter-century of journalism I can absolutely vouch that bigotry and racism is just as prevalent here. People just aren't open and honest about who they are.


Whether this is a vestige of religious culture, living with gun culture, survival during settlement or low population density, I couldn't say.


But I prefer, generally, the European model. At least you know fairly quickly, most of the time, who somebody really is. (Not that it isn't annoying. I consume mostly English TV and newspapers these days, and the level of snobbery and pretension, regardless of income class, is staggering compared to what it feels like here.)


Again, that changes in Canada when you really get to know somebody you don't like, which as a reporter I got to do a lot.


As someone autistic, I tend to have a fairly blank and difficult-to-read expression most of the time. As a reporter, this translated to people who'd never met me innately trusting me and telling me unbelievably personal shit. Between the ages of nineteen and thirty, I had three different women I'd never met before that night admit to me that they'd had abortions when younger, absolutely out of the blue in each case and apropos of nothing being discussed. One of them, the wife of a small city U.S. mayor, then tried to set me up with her daughter in Seattle, four states away.


This extended to interview subjects, who frequently confessed things they were ashamed of to me while being interviewed, often without any relation to the subject at hand. I got some good stories out of it, but some real hatred from the people who opened up (despite not saying 'off the record' or anything like that) after the fact.


In North America, people are only honest with people in their inner circle of trust, generally. They avoid confrontation at all costs. If they are loud and proud, it's because they're promoting a distinct political position that relates to themselves.


I suspect a lot of it stems from religious edicts. While there are plenty of religious people in most European nations, the general rate of secularism has been increasing far more quickly than here, because older cultures tend to try and abandon issues of faith more quickly.


French people aren't any ruder or more racist than anyone else. They're just more open about it.


The only solid measurement I've ever seen for hatred and fear of others -- whatever 'phobia' it falls under -- is the education level of the people who live there. The higher the education level, the more they travel and don't fear difference.

[Oldtimer]

French people aren't any ruder or more racist than anyone else. They're just more open about it.




That's untrue (as far as racism goes), as someone who has lived in France and had quite a few minority friends there, France is much worse than many places in actual attitudes, not just in how they express it (although you are correct that they are very open about it). Systemic racism there is much worse too. You have no idea.

Prejudice of all kinds exists in every society, including Canada, and we should not deny it. It's a real problem here and Canadians have a history of denial about it. But people who haven't actually lived in France have little idea how difficult it is for you if you are Black, Arab, or Roma in France. To bring it back to football, Zinedine Zidane spoke quite eloquently about it after the French Men's Nation Team won so many titles about how he is loved as a French footballer, but basically is not considered part of France when he is an ordinary citizen.

As far as rudeness goes, that's mostly Parisian not France as a whole.

[Kamp Berg]

That's untrue (as far as racism goes), as someone who has lived in France and had quite a few minority friends there, France is much worse than many places in actual attitudes, not just in how they express it (although you are correct that they are very open about it). Systemic racism there is much worse too. You have no idea.

Prejudice of all kinds exists in every society, including Canada, and we should not deny it. It's a real problem here and Canadians have a history of denial about it. But people who haven't actually lived in France have little idea how difficult it is for you if you are Black, Arab, or Roma in France. To bring it back to football, Zinedine Zidane spoke quite eloquently about it after the French Men's Nation Team won so many titles about how he is loved as a French footballer, but basically is not considered part of France when he is an ordinary citizen.

As far as rudeness goes, that's mostly Parisian not France as a whole.

You are absolutely right that there are problems in France that don’t necessarily exist here in the same form. But before you make a definitive statement, consider that there are Indigenous parents(citizens) here afraid to seek medical help for their children because they believe if they do, they will be labelled as negligent parents and their child will be taken from them and given to a white family. Do you think immigrant parents in France have that fear? It doesn’t make either situation worse or better, in fact it seems reductive and extremely
insensitive to me to argue about it at all. Unfortunately there is hatred and discrimination in most, if not all countries, and none of it is any ‘better’.

[jloome]

That's untrue (as far as racism goes), as someone who has lived in France and had quite a few minority friends there, France is much worse than many places in actual attitudes, not just in how they express it (although you are correct that they are very open about it). Systemic racism there is much worse too. You have no idea.

Prejudice of all kinds exists in every society, including Canada, and we should not deny it. It's a real problem here and Canadians have a history of denial about it. But people who haven't actually lived in France have little idea how difficult it is for you if you are Black, Arab, or Roma in France. To bring it back to football, Zinedine Zidane spoke quite eloquently about it after the French Men's Nation Team won so many titles about how he is loved as a French footballer, but basically is not considered part of France when he is an ordinary citizen.

As far as rudeness goes, that's mostly Parisian not France as a whole.

As someone who has lived in Alberta, I think you need to spend a little time here.

As someone who has lived in rural Canada for eight of his adult years, I think you need to spend a little time there. Northwestern Ontario was as backward and racist as any place I've been in Europe. In Alberta, we've had cross burnings on lawns, racists assaults, gay bashing, all up and into this century.

In Northwestern Ontario and rural Alberta, many people still call cashew nuts "n--ger toes."

Canada viewed from southern Ontario is only seeing a fraction of this nation. As you say, we have racism here; and it's a lot more common than it is open.

ALL of that exists here, people just don't talk about it. But crimes based on race and ethnicity are a prevalent enough issue here that we've developed a separate criminal code category for them.

And even in places in Canada we see as tolerant, communities are often silo'd by the argument that maintaining distinct cultures in Canada is preferable to the "melting pot", so in large parts of this country, young people from various ethnic backgrounds are pressured to not associate outside their community.

That's not even getting into the native American situation, which is as bad or worse than most countries' aboriginal problems. Archbishop Desmond Tutu visited the Osnaburgh First Nation in the nineties (and it hasn't gotten much better on many reserves) and called it "Worse that Soweto."

Older cultures wear their bigotry openly and France more than most. But that's not the same as there being "more" of it. And maybe there is, marginally, more there than here. But in reality, we're pretty fucking bad too, and don't kid yourself that we're not. I've had East Indian friends who were born and raised here be beaten up on a Friday night and called dirty Pakis, so we're hardly immune.

The most prominent white supremacist website in the world was developed and run from Oliver, B.C. until about a decade ago. The interior of B.C. is INCREDIBLY racist. So is much of Saskatchewan. Ask an Asian person in Winnipeg how often they get pissed on because "there's too many Chinese."

I've lived all over this country, from PEI to the west, and it's fucking racist. Don't kid yourself.

(I once broke up my band after bringing in a black rhythm guitarist only to find out my drummer and vocalist were both entirely, utterly racist. That was literally two of five, people I thought I knew well. I can take multiple social occasions in Alberta where we've had about that many people around a table and, when they think you're safe and trustworthy, that sort of ratio saying something entirely racist is not uncommon).

And as you say, Paris and other large centers likes Marseille that have mass immigration are the worst there -- but they also take in FLOODS of refugees that we don't, so people are constantly facing a shifting demographic. Move to a similar place, like Fort Frances, Ont., in that they have a reserve of 3,000 first nations people next to a town of 8,000, and the racism is open and virulent. You cannot get through a Friday night of drinking without being lectured about shiftless, lazy Indians.

[jloome]

Maybe the best summation for this thread is that there is significant racism anywhere there are significant numbers of people. We are a sad, paranoid species.

[nfitz]

Move to a similar place, like Fort Frances, Ont., in that they have a reserve of 3,000 first nations people next to a town of 8,000, and the racism is open and virulent. You cannot get through a Friday night of drinking without being lectured about shiftless, lazy Indians.Good grief.

Hmm ... I wonder if this is related to the incessant need I've noticed - particularly out west, to compare themselves and diss Toronto ... that we aren't white enough for them.

[jloome]

Good grief.

Hmm ... I wonder if this is related to the incessant need I've noticed - particularly out west, to compare themselves and diss Toronto ... that we aren't white enough for them.
Given that all hatred is generally grounded in a sense or direct misperception of insecurity, I would guess that’s part of it. You’re just different, is all, and that’s part of it, to be sure.

[Oldtimer]

As someone who has lived in Alberta, I think you need to spend a little time here.



I've lived in Texas -- pretty similar to Alberta.

You are only seeing the Canadian side of the equation so you can't really compare. You are basing a popular stereotype of France with Alberta reality, I don't want to get into comparative horrible stories but you really have no idea what you are talking about. Sorry, no offense meant. Ask any black French footballer playing in North America if they prefer France. They'll tell you the truth.

[jloome]

I've lived in Texas -- pretty similar to Alberta.

You are only seeing the Canadian side of the equation so you can't really compare. You are basing a popular stereotype of France with Alberta reality, I don't want to get into comparative horrible stories but you really have no idea what you are talking about. Sorry, no offense meant. Ask any black French footballer playing in North America if they prefer France. They'll tell you the truth.

I grew up in England. I've spent weeks, on multiple occasions, in Paris, on route to Africa, where I was born and then later returned and lived for seven years. I know exactly what you're talking about. I've heard it from Africans living in France... and living in England. And in North Africa.

I just think it's worse everywhere else than you're aware of, not that it's great living in Saint-Denis.

I mean, it's probably statistically apples and oranges based on something like bureaucratic difficulties in reporting, but there were 2,400 hate crimes reported in France in 2020.

There were 2,600 in Canada and we have a population half theirs.

Again, the absurd disparity has to be down to more reporting here and probably a lower standard to qualify. But it illustrates the point that things here aren't rosy.

And in both countries, the number of incidents of hatred against people for their religion dwarfed that of crimes based on race.

Additionally, if you read the Wikipedia section on racism in France, you'll find 8% of French people when polled anonymously in 2016 have overtly racist beliefs about Africans. A Statistics Canada poll here last year found FIFTY PERCENT of Canadians thought it "okay to privately hold racist thoughts"
and nearly 25% thought it was okay to do so publicly.

https://globalnews.ca/news/5262461/canadian-racism-ipsos-poll/

Probably that's just more self-awareness on our part. Again, both polls were anonymous so while people there may be self-deluded by a sense of superiority, there's no overt reason for either side to have been lying.

In a similar poll in 2020, 76% expressed solidarity with the statement "there are too many Arabs in France," which when you drill down in the poll is clearly about Islam, not them being Arabic. That figure has been pretty stable since 1990, when they began polling those particular questions.

So your perception does not seem to be supported by the public record.

Also, when you say "I don't mean to offend, but you don't know what you're talking about," you're just saying you know you're being offensive. Perhaps a position with a modicum of humility would be "this is my perception, yours is clearly different," not "even though I clearly know nothing about you, I'm going to assume your life experience."