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View Full Version : Ali Curtis at TFC - on December 31, 2021



PizzaEatingYeti
08-31-2021, 07:14 AM
I'm a betting guy for the last 21 years, making now in sports betting on yearly average about the same as in my regular, 8 hour job, so I can't stop myself doing this post. :hide:

I am giving in this poll 2 odds (this is what I figured out) on what is the probability of Ali Curtis being in the same power position concerning TFC at 12 PM ET, on December 31, 2021 like he is right now, on August 31.

For non bettors, the owerwhelming majority of this forum:

-180 odds mean that if you bet (risk) $100, if your bet is a winner, you will be returned your $100 (your initial risk) + $55.55 (you winnings) = total $155.55
+160 odds mean that if you bet (risk) $100, if your bet is a winner, you will be returned your $100 (your initial risk) + $160 (you winnings) = total $260

So... post your bets!

:scarf:

PizzaEatingYeti
08-31-2021, 08:30 AM
Just curious, who voted on Curtis being still in same position - if you were serious or joking.
Sure it can happen, after all, this is MLS, and as an extra, this is MLSE. :facepalm:

ag futbol
08-31-2021, 09:05 AM
If Curtis is back next year I will be taking a break from following this team. There’s more than enough track record here to demonstrate he cannot do the job and is a poor fit for our market. It would be criminal to hand him the keys to this offseason with the flexibility we’ll have. I won’t waste my time watching a predictable and repeated failure.

Similarly, I am borderline on Manning. I would prefer he was cleaned out too but I will hesitantly watch if he remains in the fold.

jabbronies
08-31-2021, 09:16 AM
Just curious, who voted on Curtis being still in same position - if you were serious or joking.
Sure it can happen, after all, this is MLS, and as an extra, this is MLSE. :facepalm:


That was me. I was serious. I don't see TFC going out and trying to get both a GM and a manager at the same time. Focus on getting a great manager and if the Team situation doesn't improve, you can sack the GM after that and then focus your search on that

jloome
08-31-2021, 10:44 AM
I also voted in the same position but for the opposite reason to jabbronies; I just think they're all so archly incompetent that unless MLSE's board steps in, nothing will happen until they run out of COVID-related excuses for fans not showing up.

Leaving the GM in while we look for a manager is insane, because our GM is clearly an idiot. Any new GM is also going to want to hire people below him, not take on a new manager the prior guy hired.

We have serious, serious roster problems, from bad personnel choices to too much spending. We have a youth program that produces nothing for its cost, making the training center that much harder to justify. We have front office that ceased communicating with the public on any meaningful level four years ago.

It's a shit show from top to bottom, which likely means we'll either see the board pay attention and clean house, or assume they'll be late to act, because Manning won't fire the guy he just renewed (this isn't Houston; between their GM's renewal and his firing six months later, they got a new owner, who made the call) and the board does not pay attention to fine detail.

The board is probably not aware that even when he was rookie of the year and an LA DP, Omar was known to have shit positioning skills, evidenced by his continual decline since losing his partnership with Delagarza. LA fans CHEERED when he left for Mexico, and each club in Mexico cheered when he moved onto the next. The only two people in MLS who didn't know this, it seems, were Ali Curtis and Bill Manning, so I don't expect the people above them to know it. I would give odds Vanney didn't want to spend $1.3M a year on him.

If the board was actually paying attention, we'd have a communications department fighting hard day in and out to promote the team. Hell, just re-signing Zavaleta, despite his profligate incompetence, should've sent smoke signals towards anyone actually paying attention. And even under Mo there was less silence than now.

spe18
08-31-2021, 11:35 AM
I'm a betting guy for the last 21 years, making now in sports betting on yearly average about the same as in my regular, 8 hour job, so I can't stop myself doing this post. :hide:

I am giving in this poll 2 odds (this is what I figured out) on what is the probability of Ali Curtis being in the same power position concerning TFC at 12 PM ET, on December 31, 2021 like he is right now, on August 31.

For non bettors, the owerwhelming majority of this forum:

-180 odds mean that if you bet (risk) $100, if your bet is a winner, you will be returned your $100 (your initial risk) + $55.55 (you winnings) = total $155.55
+160 odds mean that if you bet (risk) $100, if your bet is a winner, you will be returned your $100 (your initial risk) + $160 (you winnings) = total $260

So... post your bets!

:scarf:

I think some have suggested on these boards that Ali Curtis may not even have the same power anymore, especially after Chris Armas was let go. I just wonder if it's Bill Manning that's really calling all the shots now on the technical side of it, and Curtis is really just a puppet in there - i.e. making suggestions, looking over the final details of contracts, etc.

I feel what really needs to happen is for Manning to be removed altogether from the technical side of things (I do think though he's a great business person - so keep him on that side of it), and have setups similar to what they have in Montreal & Vancouver. Where Oliver Renard and Axel Schuster, their respective "sporting directors", seems to have done reasonably well, up to now at least, in bringing their teams to the middle of the pack in the league, after having literally bottomed out the past few seasons.

The problem though is that the MLSE board probably doesn't know any of this, whom I suspect is who Manning reports to.

Also, during half-time of the Van-RSL game on Sunday, I somewhat recall Schuster mentioning on TSN that for their next head coach, they expect someone that will be able to work with the team already in place, and also will act as a link between the first team and the academy - somewhere along those lines. If someone can point out a link to that interview, I'd love to rewatch it, as some of it could very much well be examples of what tfc should be doing it too.

Initial B
08-31-2021, 12:44 PM
Curtis has had my prerequisite 3 transfer windows to show what he can do, and the team has grown progressively worse during that period. I don't see how he can stay.

Oldtimer
08-31-2021, 01:11 PM
While Manning has some shared responsibility for the decisions that were made, he's said many times that decisions are made as a team. If that's true, and I believe him that it's true, the quality of the other team members is of prime importance. Since Manning is the one with the decision-making power to push the eject button, I expect Curtis to take the fall, not Manning.

https://cdn2.bulbagarden.net/upload/d/d9/Dream_Eject_Button_Sprite.png

ensco
08-31-2021, 08:28 PM
This already happened. Ali was functionally fired the day Jozy returned.

OgtheDim
09-01-2021, 05:57 AM
Just to pinpoint the exact moment

If its true that Manning first touched base with Jozy the Sunday evening after Armas was fired, then Ali was functionally let go at the point on the night after that DCU debacle when Manning said "We are done here" about Armas. The video announcement of the Armas firing on the Sunday pretty much indicated that had happened.

jloome
09-01-2021, 04:07 PM
This already happened. Ali was functionally fired the day Jozy returned.

If you use the transfer tacker tag on mlssoccer, we're literally the only club that hasn't made a move of any type -- loan, signing, release, transfer -- in three months.

Vancouver has loaned out three youth players to int'l clubs and signed Marcus Godinho on a free. Montreal has made multiple moves.

Either he's completely handcuffed, or the roster has zero flexibility or both. Either way, I'd say he's truly fucked at this point.

leedsandTFC
09-01-2021, 10:50 PM
If you use the transfer tacker tag on mlssoccer, we're literally the only club that hasn't made a move of any type -- loan, signing, release, transfer -- in three months.

Vancouver has loaned out three youth players to int'l clubs and signed Marcus Godinho on a free. Montreal has made multiple moves.

Either he's completely handcuffed, or the roster has zero flexibility or both. Either way, I'd say he's truly fucked at this point.

he's just useless, so lack of action could just be incompetence.

however, i reckon the jozy/ armas fiasco was the end of him functionally as a GM, will be moved on quietly after the season.

Canary10
09-11-2021, 08:42 AM
Just here to point out Patrick Vieira got his first Premier League win today. Crystal Palace with good and consistent performances so far this year. Not that Vieira was ever realistically in the running, but makes Curtis’ coaching decision look worse nonetheless.

MikeForbes
09-11-2021, 08:49 PM
He gone.

portu
09-11-2021, 08:51 PM
I voted that he’ll still be here mainly because I don’t believe the incompetence stops with him. There’s some deep rot at the club right now.

PizzaEatingYeti
09-12-2021, 05:40 AM
I voted that he’ll still be here mainly because I don’t believe the incompetence stops with him. There’s some deep rot at the club right now.

You're perfectly right that the incompetence does not stop with him.

In my view the big problem is that it not stops even with Manning, because the deep rot is in the MLSE board as far as TFC is concerned - in the form of not caring enough about losing even $7-8 millions per season with this team, losing fans, etc.
Because together with the Argos, TFC are considered probably so insignificant compared to the Leafs and Raps, that the glorious MLSE board does not give a flying fart about them.

OK, maybe I'm too angry, but no way isn't a good chunk of truth in this...

Hala Hrvatska
09-12-2021, 08:38 AM
Can someone explain to me how red bulls reject Curtis still has a job this morning? How much more worse must we sink, how much more humiliation suffered...all while with the highest payroll in the MLS, before he is fired?

PS how does Manning still have a job also? He hired his incompetent buddy Curtis, why is he not accountable for this absolute s.hit show?

jloome
09-12-2021, 11:10 AM
Can someone explain to me how red bulls reject Curtis still has a job this morning? How much more worse must we sink, how much more humiliation suffered...all while with the highest payroll in the MLS, before he is fired?

PS how does Manning still have a job also? He hired his incompetent buddy Curtis, why is he not accountable for this absolute s.hit show?

Board of MLSE doesn't pay attention.

So, if not for Oso's five goals in all contests, our leading scorer this season would be... Ayo Akinola, with three. Despite the fact that he's been out for more than half the season.

It's a mockery of their fanbase, their paying customers, that these men are still in leadership roles.

The league has changed and grown rapidly over the last five years, but we've actually gotten progressively weaker for three seasons.

The reason we lose so much is that we're a bad team, with an uncompetitive roster. The old model of having one starter and then interchangeable MLS 1.0 backups, NCAA guys who weren't good enough to get a look in their teens, is basically dead.

Every good team in this league has multiple guys competing for each spot. We've NEVER had that.

We were a good team when a team in this league could win with the most expensive three DPs, period. Those days are over and we not only haven't adjusted, we've replaced strong depth with weaker, more expensive depth. It's a travesty.

Richard
09-13-2021, 10:17 AM
Board of MLSE doesn't pay attention.

So, if not for Oso's five goals in all contests, our leading scorer this season would be... Ayo Akinola, with three. Despite the fact that he's been out for more than half the season.

It's a mockery of their fanbase, their paying customers, that these men are still in leadership roles.

The league has changed and grown rapidly over the last five years, but we've actually gotten progressively weaker for three seasons.

The reason we lose so much is that we're a bad team, with an uncompetitive roster. The old model of having one starter and then interchangeable MLS 1.0 backups, NCAA guys who weren't good enough to get a look in their teens, is basically dead.

Every good team in this league has multiple guys competing for each spot. We've NEVER had that.

We were a good team when a team in this league could win with the most expensive three DPs, period. Those days are over and we not only haven't adjusted, we've replaced strong depth with weaker, more expensive depth. It's a travesty.

That goals scored stat is dire.

Thrillos
09-13-2021, 02:43 PM
Board of MLSE doesn't pay attention.

So, if not for Oso's five goals in all contests, our leading scorer this season would be... Ayo Akinola, with three. Despite the fact that he's been out for more than half the season.

It's a mockery of their fanbase, their paying customers, that these men are still in leadership roles.

The league has changed and grown rapidly over the last five years, but we've actually gotten progressively weaker for three seasons.

The reason we lose so much is that we're a bad team, with an uncompetitive roster. The old model of having one starter and then interchangeable MLS 1.0 backups, NCAA guys who weren't good enough to get a look in their teens, is basically dead.

Every good team in this league has multiple guys competing for each spot. We've NEVER had that.

We were a good team when a team in this league could win with the most expensive three DPs, period. Those days are over and we not only haven't adjusted, we've replaced strong depth with weaker, more expensive depth. It's a travesty.


Out of curiosity, which teams have players competing for each and every spot. I don't know of a single one, and that includes Seattle and the Revs....

We need a goal scorer, centre back, and a real Manager. That would make us competitive overnight. Curtis brought in Omar to replace Moor, bad move. He didn't replace or bring in a suitable back-up for Jozy due to likely injuries, then he hired a brutal coach. This is how incompetence in the GM position can tank a championship caliber team in less than a season.

jabbronies
09-13-2021, 03:22 PM
Curtis brought in Omar to replace Moor, bad move.

I don't think it was a bad decision.

Omar was only 31 years old when he was brought in. We saw an instant difference in our game when he was brought in, and Vanney was able to continue that success for an additional season. When Omar was brought in - I said that this move bought us time to go and get a younger replacement. At least 2 years of solid work before we'd be back in the position we were in with Drew - and that's pretty much true.

The issue with Omar is that Curtis thought he was a longer term solution. He and Bradley have aged poorly these past 2 seasons and this really created a hole in the center of the defensive end. Curtis didn't plan well for this situation, which I think a lot of us saw coming. I blame Curtis for his lack of vision, not his selection on this one.

This wouldn't have been as bad if Vanney was still around. That guy knew how to plug holes with what he had. He would've found a way to make this work (Delgado/Oso double pivot)

MikeForbes
09-13-2021, 03:29 PM
Vanney was scared of benching Michael Bradley too.

jabbronies
09-13-2021, 03:31 PM
Vanney was scared of benching Michael Bradley too.

ya there's that.

Thrillos
09-13-2021, 03:52 PM
I don't think it was a bad decision.

Omar was only 31 years old when he was brought in. We saw an instant difference in our game when he was brought in, and Vanney was able to continue that success for an additional season. When Omar was brought in - I said that this move bought us time to go and get a younger replacement. At least 2 years of solid work before we'd be back in the position we were in with Drew - and that's pretty much true.

The issue with Omar is that Curtis thought he was a longer term solution. He and Bradley have aged poorly these past 2 seasons and this really created a hole in the center of the defensive end. Curtis didn't plan well for this situation, which I think a lot of us saw coming. I blame Curtis for his lack of vision, not his selection on this one.

This wouldn't have been as bad if Vanney was still around. That guy knew how to plug holes with what he had. He would've found a way to make this work (Delgado/Oso double pivot)

We saw an instant difference because there was no other starting caliber CB other than Mavinga... You say it wasn't a bad decision then went about explaining how he tapered off and was just a short term solution. If Curtis thought it was a short term solution he would have signed another CB, except that contract handicapped us in getting another CB until his contract ran out. Why not just go get someone for the longer term, why not give Drew Moor a good contract and actually keep him. Sorry, it was a bad decision. Decision or 'vision' is just semantics to poor performance as a GM.

Agree with Vanney being able to plug holes, he was a good coach. Coaches in MLS have to be able to plug holes because live in a salary cap world.

Also, Vanney not benching Bradley as negative..? really?

jloome
09-13-2021, 04:15 PM
Out of curiosity, which teams have players competing for each and every spot. I don't know of a single one, and that includes Seattle and the Revs....

We need a goal scorer, centre back, and a real Manager. That would make us competitive overnight. Curtis brought in Omar to replace Moor, bad move. He didn't replace or bring in a suitable back-up for Jozy due to likely injuries, then he hired a brutal coach. This is how incompetence in the GM position can tank a championship caliber team in less than a season.

Seattle had five starters out, including two DPs, their leading scorer and their goalkeeper, for nearly half the season. And they lost twice during that period. If that's not players competing for spots, I'm not sure what is.

I didn't mean players of equivalent value, I meant players competing for their spot.

Our second string is never going to be as strong as our first, because it isn't at any club on Earth. But the players behind the starters at least have to be able to play at a competitive enough level to keep the first team competitive. That's what competing for spots is, having relevant second string players. Not having two first teams.

New England lost a guy on pace to shatter the league assist record and didn't slow a whit. NYFC is as deep as Seattle, and almost every other team in the east at least has a few guys on the bench who could start at other clubs.

We have ZERO competitive depth. Every guy we bring in makes us inestimably weaker. That's what not having competing players means.

ag futbol
09-13-2021, 04:31 PM
I would say Omar has never been “great” only comparatively better than the void he filled at the time he was brought in.

He was being driven out of Mexico for being too slow and it wasn’t long before we saw signs of that here. When we played our toughest opponents in 2019, you could see teams begin to isolate him and his lumbering pace being an issue. He has only become more slow since then.

This was a criminally bad signing. He’s close to the highest paid CB in MLS and plays nothing like it. We waited 6 months just to bring him in.

I would call this “Exhibit A” of management’s USMNT beer goggles. Any other player with that track record and a different passport would have gotten $300k tops.

ag futbol
09-13-2021, 05:20 PM
We have ZERO competitive depth. Every guy we bring in makes us inestimably weaker. That's what not having competing players means.
To add to this, we seem to mostly dismiss the concept of playing for your place and generating competition in spots where we have the opportunity to.

Everyone needs to be taken down a peg and it’s legitimate “play-for-your-spot-next-year” time. I would put almost everyone on this team in the shop window, it’s time for a full rebuild.

MightyDM
09-13-2021, 07:32 PM
Board of MLSE doesn't pay attention.

So, if not for Oso's five goals in all contests, our leading scorer this season would be... Ayo Akinola, with three. Despite the fact that he's been out for more than half the season.

It's a mockery of their fanbase, their paying customers, that these men are still in leadership roles.

The league has changed and grown rapidly over the last five years, but we've actually gotten progressively weaker for three seasons.

The reason we lose so much is that we're a bad team, with an uncompetitive roster. The old model of having one starter and then interchangeable MLS 1.0 backups, NCAA guys who weren't good enough to get a look in their teens, is basically dead.

Every good team in this league has multiple guys competing for each spot. We've NEVER had that.

We were a good team when a team in this league could win with the most expensive three DPs, period. Those days are over and we not only haven't adjusted, we've replaced strong depth with weaker, more expensive depth. It's a travesty.

Sadly, and unfortunately, correct.

MightyDM
09-13-2021, 07:36 PM
I would say Omar has never been “great” only comparatively better than the void he filled at the time he was brought in.

He was being driven out of Mexico for being too slow and it wasn’t long before we saw signs of that here. When we played our toughest opponents in 2019, you could see teams begin to isolate him and his lumbering pace being an issue. He has only become more slow since then.

This was a criminally bad signing. He’s close to the highest paid CB in MLS and plays nothing like it. We waited 6 months just to bring him in.

I would call this “Exhibit A” of management’s USMNT beer goggles. Any other player with that track record and a different passport would have gotten $300k tops.

spot on

PizzaEatingYeti
09-14-2021, 03:49 AM
spot on

Spot on, seconded!

I would go even more far, saying that I never want to have any more USNMT former or actual players as TFC DP's!
In the US and Canada soccer world the USMNT is vastly overrated as far as their position in the World is considered, and probably will be for many more decades. But in fact on the World scene is a no name, average team. DP-s from USMNT will be IMO always a lot more overpaid at TFC than other nation's MNT players.

OgtheDim
09-14-2021, 06:10 AM
Anybody who would not take Walker Zimmerman or Sebastian Leigeit right now needs to take a step back. Yup, don't go for Sargent but the idea that no USMNT should be on this MLS team is an overreaction.


We had Bradley & Jozy because they were available. Both have been immense for the club (we need to move on)

The only other USMNT person we got was Omar, who did well his first season but dropped off the precipice soon after, at a younger age then most CBs. (I wouldn't call Bono having a Klinsman call up for one session being drafted at the same time a USMNT pick)

Every other player who was USMNT while with us got called up due to TFC play - Morrow & Delgado

MikeForbes
09-14-2021, 06:42 AM
I cheer for the players who wear the kit, not the birth certificate of said players. This nationalist stuff is kind of lame. If you want TFC to be a CMNT developmental team, get used to this spot in the standings.

MightyDM
09-14-2021, 07:46 AM
I cheer for the players who wear the kit, not the birth certificate of said players. This nationalist stuff is kind of lame. If you want TFC to be a CMNT developmental team, get used to this spot in the standings.

I think the point being made is that it is lazy recruiting for our management to recruit USMNT players ie they are recruiting from repautation. I think it’s a fair criticism as Omar, Dwyer and Kemar Lawrence are all players who have been recently recruited apparently on reputation, Kemar the best of those but we didn’t need him as much as a CB - brining him in used up whatever $$$ we had.

Thrillos
09-14-2021, 08:25 AM
Seattle had five starters out, including two DPs, their leading scorer and their goalkeeper, for nearly half the season. And they lost twice during that period. If that's not players competing for spots, I'm not sure what is.

I didn't mean players of equivalent value, I meant players competing for their spot.

Our second string is never going to be as strong as our first, because it isn't at any club on Earth. But the players behind the starters at least have to be able to play at a competitive enough level to keep the first team competitive. That's what competing for spots is, having relevant second string players. Not having two first teams.

New England lost a guy on pace to shatter the league assist record and didn't slow a whit. NYFC is as deep as Seattle, and almost every other team in the east at least has a few guys on the bench who could start at other clubs.

We have ZERO competitive depth. Every guy we bring in makes us inestimably weaker. That's what not having competing players means.

I do agree with you on Seattle, they have depth. I am on the fence with NYCFC.

I never made the assumption that it meant two first strings and I am not sure why you are saying that.

I definitely disagree with the zero competition for spots.

We have three very capable full backs for two spots. Lareray, Morrow and auro. Any team would add them to their lineup

We have at CM in bradley, Delgado and Priso. Any team would add them to their lineup.

We have depth at CAM. Osorio, Deleon, and pozuelo. Any team would take them.

More arguable positions are wingers where soteldo, shaffelberg, achara, and endoh would likely make the 18 man lineup

We don’t have depth up top where only altidore and Akinola would make other rosters, no one would take Dwyer or Mullins.

CB again as stated we only have one that people would truly take. I MIGHT make the argument that gonazaelz might make the bench as the back up CB for most clubs. Similar to how Ciman was used by Vanney.

MightyDM
09-14-2021, 09:06 AM
We are less than the sum of our parts.

ag futbol
09-14-2021, 09:13 AM
I cheer for the players who wear the kit, not the birth certificate of said players. This nationalist stuff is kind of lame. If you want TFC to be a CMNT developmental team, get used to this spot in the standings.
Ehh we’ve drifted to extremes here. Not my intent with the original comment to say we need to fly the flag and become a CANMNT finishing school.

But people need to keep in mind this whole league was created with developing American Players and Managers in mind. They stick with their own more often than we’d like to otherwise believe as often modest, self-effacing Canadians. I’ll stand by my comment Omar’s contract was supported by his passport, not his actual level of play. A player who was the butt of jokes and had lost his spot on a league slightly better than MLS was given a million dollar deal. Does that not sound off?

Similarly, while I don’t think we should just walk every prospect into the first team, very clearly we are missing opportunities. If you’re to take the top 5 players (heck maybe 10) coming out of the GTA in the last 5 years, I bet none of those play for TFC. Our youth development has to get better and we sit in a market where it should be decent. And in no way to I mean that as let’s play the kids and become FCD. I mean let’s take the easy win here and actually use a small fraction of the talent that’s under our nose and actually do a good job developing it so it’s ready for the first team.

MightyDM
09-14-2021, 09:17 AM
And that’s on Management for getting too many of some parts and not enough of others; on Armas for being a disaster and possibly on Perez (jury still out there)

Canary10
09-14-2021, 09:26 AM
Anybody who would not take Walker Zimmerman or Sebastian Leigeit right now needs to take a step back. Yup, don't go for Sargent but the idea that no USMNT should be on this MLS team is an overreaction.


We had Bradley & Jozy because they were available. Both have been immense for the club (we need to move on)

The only other USMNT person we got was Omar, who did well his first season but dropped off the precipice soon after, at a younger age then most CBs. (I wouldn't call Bono having a Klinsman call up for one session being drafted at the same time a USMNT pick)

Every other player who was USMNT while with us got called up due to TFC play - Morrow & Delgado

What's wrong with Sargent?

Thrillos
09-14-2021, 09:58 AM
We are less than the sum of our parts.

I violently agree with this statement.

I put the blame on this squarely on Curtis for not creating too much depth in some positions (CM/CAM) and not enough in others (FW/CB). In addition, he replaced Vanney by someone who anyone other than him knew would not work out, and waited about 4 games too long to make the change. Lastly he replaced Armas with someone who clearly doesn't have the personality and motivational abilities a true manager needs. 2021 didn't have to a be write off, Curtis' bad decision making just kept making it worse and worse. Now i just hope i don't add another example of why Curtis needs to gone before he is actually gone...

MightyDM
09-14-2021, 10:28 AM
Ehh we’ve drifted to extremes here. Not my intent with the original comment to say we need to fly the flag and become a CANMNT finishing school.

But people need to keep in mind this whole league was created with developing American Players and Managers in mind. They stick with their own more often than we’d like to otherwise believe as often modest, self-effacing Canadians. I’ll stand by my comment Omar’s contract was supported by his passport, not his actual level of play. A player who was the butt of jokes and had lost his spot on a league slightly better than MLS was given a million dollar deal. Does that not sound off?

Similarly, while I don’t think we should just walk every prospect into the first team, very clearly we are missing opportunities. If you’re to take the top 5 players (heck maybe 10) coming out of the GTA in the last 5 years, I bet none of those play for TFC. Our youth development has to get better and we sit in a market where it should be decent. And in no way to I mean that as let’s play the kids and become FCD. I mean let’s take the easy win here and actually use a small fraction of the talent that’s under our nose and actually do a good job developing it so it’s ready for the first team.

Well written and spot on post.

Thrillos
09-14-2021, 12:06 PM
I just did some reading on the recent COL vs. LAG game, and I will say it just adds more fuel to the fire of our main issue being the coach and not the players overall. I still think Curtis has done us absolutely no favours with our squad as highlighted above, but where he royally screwed up was Armas. Arguably Perez as well, i know not everyone agrees with me on this one.

COL and LAG were both basement dwellers, they both were talked about having limited to no talent, and expensive players who were not performing as expected. Chicharito was considered a flop for example. Look at what two of our ex coaches have done with those two teams. COL is using Moor still in an incredibly stable defense, when we let him go because people thought he was too old.

I firmly believe that if we somehow had Vanney show back up when Armas was let go, we would be in a playoff spot right now. Not to say it isn't possible, more to say we really need a f'ing manager! ... and Curtis gone.

Kamp Berg
09-14-2021, 12:17 PM
I just did some reading on the recent COL vs. LAG game, and I will say it just adds more fuel to the fire of our main issue being the coach and not the players overall. I still think Curtis has done us absolutely no favours with our squad as highlighted above, but where he royally screwed up was Armas. Arguably Perez as well, i know not everyone agrees with me on this one.

COL and LAG were both basement dwellers, they both were talked about having limited to no talent, and expensive players who were not performing as expected. Chicharito was considered a flop for example. Look at what two of our ex coaches have done with those two teams. COL is using Moor still in an incredibly stable defense, when we let him go because people thought he was too old.

I firmly believe that if we somehow had Vanney show back up when Armas was let go, we would be in a playoff spot right now. Not to say it isn't possible, more to say we really need a f'ing manager! ... and Curtis gone.

I’m still convinced Vanney wouldn’t have left so eagerly if MLSE wasn’t such a shitshow. I say MLSE and not TFC because if no one at the top really cares then why would those at the bottom?

jloome
09-14-2021, 01:12 PM
Lareray, Morrow and auro. Any team would add them to their lineup

We have at CM in bradley, Delgado and Priso. Any team would add them to their lineup.

We have depth at CAM. Osorio, Deleon, and pozuelo. Any team would take them.

More arguable positions are wingers where soteldo, shaffelberg, achara, and endoh would likely make the 18 man lineup

We don’t have depth up top where only altidore and Akinola would make other rosters, no one would take Dwyer or Mullins.

CB again as stated we only have one that people would truly take. I MIGHT make the argument that gonazaelz might make the bench as the back up CB for most clubs. Similar to how Ciman was used by Vanney.

No team would take Justin Morrow except on a free because he's 35, his legs are tired enough that he can't play more than two games in a ten-day period (we sat him for just that reason) and there are younger options who are at least as good.

No team would take Michael Bradley because his legs are crocked. He can't cover the area of the field he needs to cover to be effective.

No team would take Nick DeLeon, because again, his history of injuries, his age and his general efficacy can all be had younger, cheaper.

They would take Delgado, but the way he's played for the last two seasons they probably shouldn't.

We have depth at right back, basically. That's it.

We don't have "depth at CAM" because Deleon isn't a CAM, he's a winger or a fullback, and we need Pozuelo and Osorio on the pitch. We don't have depth at left back, because Morrow isn't reliable game in and out. We don't have depth at center half because we only have one starter to begin with.

Striker and wingers, which is most of our offense, everyone concedes the point.

The only position we have depth at is number eight, assuming Delgado comes around and starts playing well again, as Osorio can deputize there. In fact, without Osorio being able to play multiple positions, we would be left with Delgado and Ralph Priso as the sole potential starters.

You think too much of guys whose best days are done. Morrow and Bradley are both that the point where they should retire, as is Gonzalez. Of the rest, the vast majority -- Mullins, DeLeon, Shaffelburg, Endoh, Dwyer -- wouldn't get a game at a competitive team in this league, let alone be signed.

(And in fact all but Shaffelburg WERE out of contract and no one else was signing them. Same with Zavaleta. We literally picked up the players no one else wanted.)

Ultra & Proud
09-14-2021, 01:13 PM
I’m still convinced Vanney wouldn’t have left so eagerly if MLSE wasn’t such a shitshow. I say MLSE and not TFC because if no one at the top really cares then why would those at the bottom?
I partially agree but I think he saw the writing on the wall like Tata did at Atlanta. They recognized tough cap decisions had to be made, losing key players (more Atlanta than us) or being unable to add to the squad (that's us) was likely because of the cap, and thusly being forced to ride players who were aging with bad contracts would be the way (for us moreso than Atlanta).

At the point Vanney split he had a rebuild going on in either LA or TFC and with the contract situations and GM differences, He picked the better option.

jloome
09-14-2021, 01:17 PM
COL and LAG were both basement dwellers, they both were talked about having limited to no talent, and expensive players who were not performing as expected.

This doesn't help your argument. Both Fraser and Vanney have completely rebuilt those rosters, to the tune of seventeen new players in LA over one season and fifteen in Colorado over two.

They didn't just start coaching shit teams and become good. They literally overhauled the rosters completely. So, no, it's clearly not just about the coaching or even anywhere close to that.

There's a full feature story on Vanney's rebuild on mlssoccer.com right now. I'd suggest reading it. Their roster was completely fucked and he's rebuilt it by getting rid of two-thirds of the players on contract.

https://www.mlssoccer.com/news/how-the-la-galaxy-rebuilt-their-roster-to-accelerate-the-greg-vanney-era

jabbronies
09-14-2021, 01:48 PM
I just did some reading on the recent COL vs. LAG game, and I will say it just adds more fuel to the fire of our main issue being the coach and not the players overall. I still think Curtis has done us absolutely no favours with our squad as highlighted above, but where he royally screwed up was Armas. Arguably Perez as well, i know not everyone agrees with me on this one.

COL and LAG were both basement dwellers, they both were talked about having limited to no talent, and expensive players who were not performing as expected. Chicharito was considered a flop for example. Look at what two of our ex coaches have done with those two teams. COL is using Moor still in an incredibly stable defense, when we let him go because people thought he was too old.

I firmly believe that if we somehow had Vanney show back up when Armas was let go, we would be in a playoff spot right now. Not to say it isn't possible, more to say we really need a f'ing manager! ... and Curtis gone.

Alex Ferguson took Man Utd to the PL title in 2012-13
in 2013-14 that same squad stumbled to 7th

There are a shit ton of other examples of this, even in MLS (ATL+Tato)

There is something to be said that both LAG and COL are successful on the backs of people that were leading our club. It took LAG, the league starlet, to raid us of Vanney, someone with success in the league, to figure it out.

With that being said - who does TFC get to do the same?

Thrillos
09-14-2021, 01:49 PM
No team would take Justin Morrow except on a free because he's 35, his legs are tired enough that he can't play more than two games in a ten-day period (we sat him for just that reason) and there are younger options who are at least as good.

No team would take Michael Bradley because his legs are crocked. He can't cover the area of the field he needs to cover to be effective.

No team would take Nick DeLeon, because again, his history of injuries, his age and his general efficacy can all be had younger, cheaper.

They would take Delgado, but the way he's played for the last two seasons they probably shouldn't.

We have depth at right back, basically. That's it.

We don't have "depth at CAM" because Deleon isn't a CAM, he's a winger or a fullback, and we need Pozuelo and Osorio on the pitch. We don't have depth at left back, because Morrow isn't reliable game in and out. We don't have depth at center half because we only have one starter to begin with.

Striker and wingers, which is most of our offense, everyone concedes the point.

The only position we have depth at is number eight, assuming Delgado comes around and starts playing well again, as Osorio can deputize there. In fact, without Osorio being able to play multiple positions, we would be left with Delgado and Ralph Priso as the sole potential starters.

You think too much of guys whose best days are done. Morrow and Bradley are both that the point where they should retire, as is Gonzalez. Of the rest, the vast majority -- Mullins, DeLeon, Shaffelburg, Endoh, Dwyer -- wouldn't get a game at a competitive team in this league, let alone be signed.

(And in fact all but Shaffelburg WERE out of contract and no one else was signing them. Same with Zavaleta. We literally picked up the players no one else wanted.)


I think we will just have to agree to disagree with the perception of the players listed. I fundamentally disagree with you saying saying all of those players don't make someone else's roster. Just because Shaffelburg didn't get picked up doesnt mean he wouldn't make the roster, he is a young player from Canada, most teams won't go through the effort to move someone on small salary with those ties. But if you remove all of that, i definitely believe most teams slot him in as a player on their 18 man roster if they have a spot open.

Morrow for example has played well for us, he has had bad games or spells in a game but more because we don't have a damn system. All players are set up to look brutal when you don't have a damn system to play. I am not stuck to players whose best days are done because in no sane world do 80% of a teams roster turn to shit overnight. And I am sorry but any team would take Bradley on the bench in a heartbeat. We can play semantics on DeLeon's position, regardless though how do you not want someone of his caliber on your bench

Per today's MLSsoccer power rankings review...

"If last season had been a full 34-game schedule, Toronto’s (https://www.mlssoccer.com/clubs/toronto-fc/) points per game would have placed them at about 65 points for the year. This year, they’re on pace for 22. Right now, CF Montréal, the seventh-place team in the East, are on pace for 46 points. The 43-point gap between last year’s Toronto team and this year’s would be a playoff contender. You could say things are going poorly."

I am sorry, but the same roster (other than Soteldo for Piatti) got (essentially) 65 points last year. I struggle to see how anyone can think an entire roster individually went over a cliff in less 6 months. The data points to a complete lack of managing capability. Hell even as recently as April we dominated Leon before Armas had a chance to completely butcher our playing style and locker room mentality.

Thrillos
09-14-2021, 01:52 PM
Alex Ferguson took Man Utd to the PL title in 2012-13
in 2013-14 that same squad stumbled to 7th

There are a shit ton of other examples of this, even in MLS (ATL+Tato)

There is something to be said that both LAG and COL are successful on the backs of people that were leading our club. It took LAG, the league starlet, to raid us of Vanney, someone with success in the league, to figure it out.

With that being said - who does TFC get to do the same?

This. This is what the main priority is before we even talk about moving a single player, or getting any new ones. The fact we have heard nothing about this search worries me immensely.

Canary10
09-14-2021, 01:54 PM
This doesn't help your argument. Both Fraser and Vanney have completely rebuilt those rosters, to the tune of seventeen new players in LA over one season and fifteen in Colorado over two.

They didn't just start coaching shit teams and become good. They literally overhauled the rosters completely. So, no, it's clearly not just about the coaching or even anywhere close to that.

There's a full feature story on Vanney's rebuild on mlssoccer.com right now. I'd suggest reading it. Their roster was completely fucked and he's rebuilt it by getting rid of two-thirds of the players on contract.

https://www.mlssoccer.com/news/how-the-la-galaxy-rebuilt-their-roster-to-accelerate-the-greg-vanney-era

Interesting article. Do you think TFC does this:

“There were a number of players from South America – Argentina, Brazil, Uruguay – whose names we put down as early priorities. The profiles of the players drives where we look. They could come from anywhere in the world, we’re just trying to be specific about where they are in the team.”

I'm guessing no. We see who is available and figure out how to fit them in a team.

jabbronies
09-14-2021, 01:55 PM
We saw an instant difference because there was no other starting caliber CB other than Mavinga... You say it wasn't a bad decision then went about explaining how he tapered off and was just a short term solution. If Curtis thought it was a short term solution he would have signed another CB, except that contract handicapped us in getting another CB until his contract ran out. Why not just go get someone for the longer term, why not give Drew Moor a good contract and actually keep him. Sorry, it was a bad decision. Decision or 'vision' is just semantics to poor performance as a GM.

Agree with Vanney being able to plug holes, he was a good coach. Coaches in MLS have to be able to plug holes because live in a salary cap world.

Also, Vanney not benching Bradley as negative..? really?

He needed to find a CB in a pinch. He did. and it took us to the final and a 2nd place finish the next season. So yes, it wasn't a bad get.
Drew Moor wasn't capable to continue being the full time leader of the backline. He's isn't doing that now. So what makes you think he could be doing that for us now?

I stand by my comment of it not being a bad move - I don't believe his contract handcuffed us to getting someone better than him. Lots of other things handcuffed from getting another CB, but finances wasn't one of them

Incompetence? sure, but keep in mind finding a CB that can do what Drew Moor does is very very difficult. IMO - more difficult than finding someone who can put the ball in the back of the net. You know why - because there are not that many good players who choose to play that position. Everyone wants to be a striker, not everyone wants to be the stay at. home defender.

When teams get these leaders of the back line, they hold on to them for dear life as they are the backbone of the entire defence - not just the players labelled defenders - but the entire defensive aspect of a teams play.

MikeForbes
09-14-2021, 01:56 PM
Ehh we’ve drifted to extremes here. Not my intent with the original comment to say we need to fly the flag and become a CANMNT finishing school.

But people need to keep in mind this whole league was created with developing American Players and Managers in mind. They stick with their own more often than we’d like to otherwise believe as often modest, self-effacing Canadians. I’ll stand by my comment Omar’s contract was supported by his passport, not his actual level of play. A player who was the butt of jokes and had lost his spot on a league slightly better than MLS was given a million dollar deal. Does that not sound off?

Similarly, while I don’t think we should just walk every prospect into the first team, very clearly we are missing opportunities. If you’re to take the top 5 players (heck maybe 10) coming out of the GTA in the last 5 years, I bet none of those play for TFC. Our youth development has to get better and we sit in a market where it should be decent. And in no way to I mean that as let’s play the kids and become FCD. I mean let’s take the easy win here and actually use a small fraction of the talent that’s under our nose and actually do a good job developing it so it’s ready for the first team.

I definitely woke up really cranky and took it out on this thread. Haha. I just want the best players available to put on the TFC kit. I really do not believe we are bad because we leaned towards player from the US. Are we so much better if we had MAK over Bradley or Delgado? I do not think so. We are bad because we aged out, got the coaching search completely wrong and made some mistakes on the TAM (Gallardo) and DP (Jozy) level.

Auzzy
09-14-2021, 02:00 PM
I detect some hyperbole in this thread. In multiple directions.

Kamp Berg
09-14-2021, 02:08 PM
I partially agree but I think he saw the writing on the wall like Tata did at Atlanta. They recognized tough cap decisions had to be made, losing key players (more Atlanta than us) or being unable to add to the squad (that's us) was likely because of the cap, and thusly being forced to ride players who were aging with bad contracts would be the way (for us moreso than Atlanta).

At the point Vanney split he had a rebuild going on in either LA or TFC and with the contract situations and GM differences, He picked the better option.

I do agree to some extant, except that I think Vanney recognized that the rebuild needed to start in 2019. And no, I don’t believe Gonzalez was an adequate choice because of his contract length. OG should have been a stop gap, not a solution, he had already lost too much quality.

Thrillos
09-14-2021, 02:14 PM
He needed to find a CB in a pinch. He did. and it took us to the final and a 2nd place finish the next season. So yes, it wasn't a bad get.
Drew Moor wasn't capable to continue being the full time leader of the backline. He's isn't doing that now. So what makes you think he could be doing that for us now?

I stand by my comment of it not being a bad move - I don't believe his contract handcuffed us to getting someone better than him. Lots of other things handcuffed from getting another CB, but finances wasn't one of them

Incompetence? sure, but keep in mind finding a CB that can do what Drew Moor does is very very difficult. IMO - more difficult than finding someone who can put the ball in the back of the net. You know why - because there are not that many good players who choose to play that position. Everyone wants to be a striker, not everyone wants to be the stay at. home defender.

When teams get these leaders of the back line, they hold on to them for dear life as they are the backbone of the entire defence - not just the players labelled defenders - but the entire defensive aspect of a teams play.

I have come around to your thinking, thinking back, I was generally pleased with Omar for the first year. He gave us a bit of steadiness in the position, Mavinga was/is the pace.

Very much agree with the difficulty to fill that position, such a vital position as well.

jloome
09-14-2021, 02:27 PM
I am sorry, but the same roster (other than Soteldo for Piatti) got (essentially) 65 points last year. I struggle to see how anyone can think an entire roster individually went over a cliff in less 6 months. The data points to a complete lack of managing capability. Hell even as recently as April we dominated Leon before Armas had a chance to completely butcher our playing style and locker room mentality.

A) you're ignoring the fact that both Colorado and LA Galaxy's resurgences came after rebuilding their squad.

b) Did you forget the part where we fell apart last year for a good chunk of the season, blew a nine-point supporter's shield run and went out in the first round of playoffs to an expansion team? That IS the data.

Vanney couldn't win with this roster without Pozuelo; Even with him, we were squeaking one-goal wins over and over. Our defense was already in trouble. It was the subject of frequent conversations on this board.

And there was zero chance of us winning anything last year once Pozuelo was out for a few games.

And YES, a year makes an enormous difference to players in their thirties. By your logic, no one would ever retire, because the year before was always better, suggesting this one could be, too.

Obviously we need a good coach and a good GM. But we also need a complete roster overhaul. Trying to "patch" this lineup and immediately contend will, at most, make us a middle-of-the-pack team. I don't know about anyone else but simply not being total shit is not a high enough goal, as far as I'm concerned.

jloome
09-14-2021, 02:33 PM
Drew Moor wasn't capable to continue being the full time leader of the backline. He's isn't doing that now. So what makes you think he could be doing that for us now?

He started eight games this year then got injured. And he started for them for Three full seasons after leaving us, and did well. So clearly, he was capable of it. Whether he is now is sort of moot, given that we let him go in 2018. If not for injuring himself, he'd still be better than anyone we have starting other than Mavinga, who is one of the best athletes as a CB in the league.




I stand by my comment of it not being a bad move - I don't believe his contract handcuffed us to getting someone better than him.

Why don't you believe that? He's on 1.3M per season. As Matt Doyle pointed out that would pay for an entire back line at multiple clubs. He's insanely overpaid and we have very little cap space, so how is it possible that it's not "handcuffing" us?

I mean.... it won't be in six months, because it expires. But it sure has been since he got here. And even in his first year for us he ranged between mediocre and shit.

Thrillos
09-14-2021, 02:45 PM
A) you're ignoring the fact that both Colorado and LA Galaxy's resurgences came after rebuilding their squad.

b) Did you forget the part where we fell apart last year for a good chunk of the season, blew a nine-point supporter's shield run and went out in the first round of playoffs to an expansion team? That IS the data.

Vanney couldn't win with this roster without Pozuelo; Even with him, we were squeaking one-goal wins over and over. Our defense was already in trouble. It was the subject of frequent conversations on this board.

And there was zero chance of us winning anything last year once Pozuelo was out for a few games.

And YES, a year makes an enormous difference to players in their thirties. By your logic, no one would ever retire, because the year before was always better, suggesting this one could be, too.

Obviously we need a good coach and a good GM. But we also need a complete roster overhaul. Trying to "patch" this lineup and immediately contend will, at most, make us a middle-of-the-pack team. I don't know about anyone else but simply not being total shit is not a high enough goal, as far as I'm concerned.

lol - I am, and have, been making the point that our main problems have been poor coaching since Vanney left. I say many times our roster is adequate, but by no means good enough for who TFC can and should be. This all comes down to Curtis as the GM and decision maker on coaching and overall roster. (the focus of the thread)

You can cherry pick a section of a season if you want, but in the end we finished with 65 points and in second place. Losing one game in a playoff doesn't set the standard for a season, sorry. Our players are not supporters shield worthy, but they are not wooden spoon worthy. We have a mid table roster with crap coaching... wooden spoon. Last year we had a mid table roster with top coaching... almost the the shield.

We don't need a roster overhaul, that just sets us back for longer. We need a manager to come in and massage the roster probably around 20%. Overhauls are why we spent the first 8 years of our existence as the laughing stock of the league. Season didn't go well... "overhaul and start from scratch!"

jloome
09-14-2021, 04:01 PM
lol - I am, and have, been making the point that our main problems have been poor coaching since Vanney left. I say many times our roster is adequate, but by no means good enough for who TFC can and should be. This all comes down to Curtis as the GM and decision maker on coaching and overall roster. (the focus of the thread)

You can cherry pick a section of a season if you want, but in the end we finished with 65 points and in second place. Losing one game in a playoff doesn't set the standard for a season, sorry. Our players are not supporters shield worthy, but they are not wooden spoon worthy. We have a mid table roster with crap coaching... wooden spoon. Last year we had a mid table roster with top coaching... almost the the shield.

We don't need a roster overhaul, that just sets us back for longer. We need a manager to come in and massage the roster probably around 20%. Overhauls are why we spent the first 8 years of our existence as the laughing stock of the league. Season didn't go well... "overhaul and start from scratch!"

Okay we’re debating at cross purposes, because being a mid table team is of zero interest to me.

20% is six players. You think we’re only six players from being competitive?

No one said start over from scratch, but the idea that we’re six players from being competitive is woefully optimistic.

Richard
09-14-2021, 05:03 PM
If the goal is to win the league we maybe have three starters who can get us there. Honestly, aside from a prospect like Priso anyone else not named Poz-Sot-Oso is replaceable. I'm having my doubts on Soteldo too, can dribble for days but I do not see enough end product, doesn't seem like a team player to me.

The league has transformed the last three years and Ali does not have ability to to get us players. This is why we keep resigning players nobody wants.

jloome
09-14-2021, 06:14 PM
If the goal is to win the league we maybe have three starters who can get us there. Honestly, aside from a prospect like Priso anyone else not named Poz-Sot-Oso is replaceable. I'm having my doubts on Soteldo too, can dribble for days but I do not see enough end product, doesn't seem like a team player to me.

The league has transformed the last three years and Ali does not have ability to to get us players. This is why we keep resigning players nobody wants.

Yeah, agreed. He has the continual waft at this point, like Mo, of being someone they don't want to deal with.

jloome
09-14-2021, 06:20 PM
Interesting article. Do you think TFC does this:

“There were a number of players from South America – Argentina, Brazil, Uruguay – whose names we put down as early priorities. The profiles of the players drives where we look. They could come from anywhere in the world, we’re just trying to be specific about where they are in the team.”

I'm guessing no. We see who is available and figure out how to fit them in a team.

He's done so little that wasn't essentially gift-wrapped or poorly timed that I have no idea what his plan is. But given how we addressed our two most serious shortages -- of a decent center half and a striker -- by buying a winger for $6M, it doesn't seem he has a plan at all.

Why release Zavaleta after his deal was up just to re-sign him? If he was good enough, we'd have offered the minimal deal immediately. Instead, he waited three months, suggesting he couldn't get anyone else.

I think lots of us like Mullins and DeLeon for work ethic, but neither is adding much. Dwyer was clearly -- clearly -- crocked at Orlando and contributing nothing there. Why he thought that would change...

I think he sees himself as a value guy, who sees value where others don't. Which is just extraordinarily arrogant when we're talking about such known commodities.

He got us Lawrence, a straight-up defensive fullback, then got a speedy winger who would be best paired with a wingback who overlaps. I mean, we might as well use Lawrence at center half, where he played sometimes for NYRB, for all the good he does us out wide.

If there's a plan there, it's one that gets thrown out on a moment's anxiety.

Thrillos
09-14-2021, 06:31 PM
Okay we’re debating at cross purposes, because being a mid table team is of zero interest to me.

20% is six players. You think we’re only six players from being competitive?

No one said start over from scratch, but the idea that we’re six players from being competitive is woefully optimistic.

Yes. I do think we are only 6 players from being competitive. Because we are one player from second place less than a year ago… as mentioned previously. As long as we have a competent manager in place shortly after our last game of the season. Who should be instrumental to the input of who those six new players are, and who the 6 are that go.

What is difference of “we need a complete overhaul” in your post previous and “no one said start over from scratch” in the one above??

In all seriousness, we should only change 20% for next season based on input from a new manager. I do think by this time next year we are likely another 10% change again to keep rotating out our older players.

Thrillos
09-14-2021, 06:35 PM
He's done so little that wasn't essentially gift-wrapped or poorly timed that I have no idea what his plan is. But given how we addressed our two most serious shortages -- of a decent center half and a striker -- by buying a winger for $6M, it doesn't seem he has a plan at all.

Why release Zavaleta after his deal was up just to re-sign him? If he was good enough, we'd have offered the minimal deal immediately. Instead, he waited three months, suggesting he couldn't get anyone else.

I think lots of us like Mullins and DeLeon for work ethic, but neither is adding much. Dwyer was clearly -- clearly -- crocked at Orlando and contributing nothing there. Why he thought that would change...

I think he sees himself as a value guy, who sees value where others don't. Which is just extraordinarily arrogant when we're talking about such known commodities.

He got us Lawrence, a straight-up defensive fullback, then got a speedy winger who would be best paired with a wingback who overlaps. I mean, we might as well use Lawrence at center half, where he played sometimes for NYRB, for all the good he does us out wide.

If there's a plan there, it's one that gets thrown out on a moment's anxiety.

This entire post makes my blood boil, because of how accurate it is. Curtis has taken a roster that was absolute top quality in the league and dragged it down to mediocrity.

portu
09-14-2021, 06:50 PM
He's done so little that wasn't essentially gift-wrapped or poorly timed that I have no idea what his plan is. But given how we addressed our two most serious shortages -- of a decent center half and a striker -- by buying a winger for $6M, it doesn't seem he has a plan at all.

Why release Zavaleta after his deal was up just to re-sign him? If he was good enough, we'd have offered the minimal deal immediately. Instead, he waited three months, suggesting he couldn't get anyone else.

I think lots of us like Mullins and DeLeon for work ethic, but neither is adding much. Dwyer was clearly -- clearly -- crocked at Orlando and contributing nothing there. Why he thought that would change...

I think he sees himself as a value guy, who sees value where others don't. Which is just extraordinarily arrogant when we're talking about such known commodities.

He got us Lawrence, a straight-up defensive fullback, then got a speedy winger who would be best paired with a wingback who overlaps. I mean, we might as well use Lawrence at center half, where he played sometimes for NYRB, for all the good he does us out wide.

If there's a plan there, it's one that gets thrown out on a moment's anxiety.
The hilarious demise of this team is illustrated by the fact that Kemar Lawrence IS starting at centre half right now.

OgtheDim
09-14-2021, 07:09 PM
The hilarious demise of this team is illustrated by the fact that Kemar Lawrence IS starting at centre half right now.


And currently...playing OK.

MikeForbes
09-14-2021, 07:28 PM
And currently...playing OK.

He was great for those 37 minutes.

ag futbol
09-14-2021, 07:29 PM
This game is a farce. I feel bad for anyone who showed up for this

jabbronies
09-15-2021, 08:35 AM
As a legit Drew Moor fan, I'm calling Bullshit on your post.



He started eight games this year then got injured. And he started for them for Three full seasons after leaving us, and did well. So clearly, he was capable of it. Whether he is now is sort of moot, given that we let him go in 2018. If not for injuring himself, he'd still be better than anyone we have starting other than Mavinga, who is one of the best athletes as a CB in the league.



NO, He was not a starter for them for 3 full seasons after he left us.

- He joined Colorado at the start of 2020 season.
- He only played 8 games for them in 2020 and he only started 5 of them.
- He's only played 8 games this year and has been injured for a good part of this season.

Mentally he is better than any CB TFC has currently or ever had.
Physically, he was done after the 2018 season - if he didn't get injured at the start of 2018 - he may have been able to continue as a starter, but that injury, like MB4's in 2019, was the beginning of the end for him.






Why don't you believe that? He's on 1.3M per season. As Matt Doyle pointed out that would pay for an entire back line at multiple clubs. He's insanely overpaid and we have very little cap space, so how is it possible that it's not "handcuffing" us?

I mean.... it won't be in six months, because it expires. But it sure has been since he got here. And even in his first year for us he ranged between mediocre and shit.

Because getting a CB Leader is just as important and critical to a teams success as getting a top notch clinical striker and you spend $$ to get that.

You want to talk about financial handcuffs, the following contracts handcuffed us from getting a proper CB replacement way before Omars did

- Erikson Gaillardo
- Eric Zavaleta
- Laurent Ciman
- Having 2 number 1 goalies on an MLS roster
- Jozy Altidore (if you wanna get crazy and use a DP slot for a CB Leader)

Don't tell me the guy who fucking steadied our shakey backline, played 58 times since he's been here (vs Drew Moors 16) made critical plays in our 2019 run and continued to hold down the fort in a 2020 2nd overall finish was not worth the money.

Yes the current situation has exposed him and IMO they are things you don't rely on when signing players (New manager, the rapid fall of MB4)

And yes Curtis gambled poorly in assuming Omar had 1 extra year in him (That was Curtis' fault on this, the 1 extra year)
but I'll tell you 100% without a doubt, 1.3 million was worth it for the success we had the past 2 years.

Hala Hrvatska
09-15-2021, 08:53 AM
As a legit Drew Moor fan, I'm calling Bullshit on your post.





NO, He was not a starter for them for 3 full seasons after he left us.

- He joined Colorado at the start of 2020 season.
- He only played 8 games for them in 2020 and he only started 5 of them.
- He's only played 8 games this year and has been injured for a good part of this season.

Mentally he is better than any CB TFC has currently or ever had.
Physically, he was done after the 2018 season - if he didn't get injured at the start of 2018 - he may have been able to continue as a starter, but that injury, like MB4's in 2019, was the beginning of the end for him.





Because getting a CB Leader is just as important and critical to a teams success as getting a top notch clinical striker and you spend $$ to get that.

You want to talk about financial handcuffs, the following contracts handcuffed us from getting a proper CB replacement way before Omars did

- Erikson Gaillardo
- Eric Zavaleta
- Laurent Ciman
- Having 2 number 1 goalies on an MLS roster
- Jozy Altidore (if you wanna get crazy and use a DP slot for a CB Leader)

Don't tell me the guy who fucking steadied our shakey backline, played 58 times since he's been here (vs Drew Moors 16) made critical plays in our 2019 run and continued to hold down the fort in a 2020 2nd overall finish was not worth the money.

Yes the current situation has exposed him and IMO they are things you don't rely on when signing players (New manager, the rapid fall of MB4)

And yes Curtis gambled poorly in assuming Omar had 1 extra year in him (That was Curtis' fault on this, the 1 extra year)
but I'll tell you 100% without a doubt, 1.3 million was worth it for the success we had the past 2 years.

Agreed.

But to emphasize the Altidore DP was a collasoal mistake that has literally killed our club. He was consistently injured and endless attitude issues on and off the field...and what do we do? We reward him with a massive DP contract...what did we expect would happen? He'd magically become injury free as he got older and even less interested?

He is currently on the 5th highest paid contract in all of MLS. His return the last two years? A grand total of 4 measely goals. Imagine if we actually had a striker...let alone a DP striker, we would not be in this mess. And we still have another year of this Altidore massive contract hanging around our necks drowning us while he laughs all the way to the bank.

Bottom line, Curtis never should have been hired here in the first place. He was booted out of red bulls and his buddy Manning hired him here...and its been a disaster ever since.

Manning AND Curtis need to go. Now. Time to try and rebuild. It will be a long and slow and painful rebuild. Manning and Curtis have literally destroyed the club with their imcompetence and need to go before they run us further into the ground. All this with the highest payroll in MLS. Shameful.

jabbronies
09-15-2021, 09:08 AM
This doesn't help your argument. Both Fraser and Vanney have completely rebuilt those rosters, to the tune of seventeen new players in LA over one season and fifteen in Colorado over two.

They didn't just start coaching shit teams and become good. They literally overhauled the rosters completely. So, no, it's clearly not just about the coaching or even anywhere close to that.

There's a full feature story on Vanney's rebuild on mlssoccer.com right now. I'd suggest reading it. Their roster was completely fucked and he's rebuilt it by getting rid of two-thirds of the players on contract.

https://www.mlssoccer.com/news/how-the-la-galaxy-rebuilt-their-roster-to-accelerate-the-greg-vanney-era


Dude wtf are you talking about today?

It's 100% about the coaching - but really you should be calling them Managers. The Article YOU POSTED even backs that up.
Vanney went in to LA, looked at the roster, saw what they had and what they lacked, and then made changes in order for them to get better. This is what managers do. They manage the roster in order for the team to get better.

Armas came in and didn't manage the roster. He didn't care about what the team had or lacked - he only cared about what he wanted, and that was to instil a particular style of play. A style of play that didn't suit what the team had

And because of this lack of managerial skills, the team went out and got random pieces that suited what Armas wanted, not what the team needed.
What the fuck are we doing with a player like Soteldo - great player! amazing talent. But that's not what this team needed. Service to the Strikers isn't our top issue. That's what Armas needed for his attacking style.

It's hard to blame the players when some of the them are thrusted into situations they have no business being in. The players know their situation is fucked, they're not idiots, they see what's happening. But what can they do? It's a demotivating situation.

and...not to shit on the guy because I like his football philosophy, but Perez isn't a motivating person. He's an assistant who usually speaks to the manager (who then speaks to the players). He's a tech head who looks at the game from a very technical perspective. He's not capable of doing what a manager needs to do to motivate the players to be better.

rydermike
09-15-2021, 09:30 AM
https://twitter.com/_Just_Kamil/status/1437956015476166665

Canary10
09-15-2021, 10:31 AM
https://twitter.com/_Just_Kamil/status/1437956015476166665

He was probably fired and we'll hear about it in a month.

CowTipper
09-15-2021, 10:39 AM
He was probably fired and we'll hear about it in a month.
Two weeks. Right after the end of the statutory two week minimum.

benito
09-15-2021, 10:39 AM
He was probably fired and we'll hear about it in a month.

They will announce it with 2022 SSH ticket window to show their commitment towards success.

jloome
09-15-2021, 10:42 AM
Dude wtf are you talking about today?

It's 100% about the coaching - but really you should be calling them Managers. The Article YOU POSTED even backs that up.
Vanney went in to LA, looked at the roster, saw what they had and what they lacked, and then made changes in order for them to get better. This is what managers do. They manage the roster in order for the team to get better..

You're confusing manager with GM.

At the end of last year, LA either let go or allowed contracts to expire on 17 of 30 players.

Vanney may have wanted that and asked for it, it may even be his decision. But it wasn't his job to do it, it was their GM, Dennis de Kloese.

You're assuming Armas didn't ask Curtis for changes, or that Armas somehow has a role in that decision. There's no guarantee AT ALL that that's the case. We have no idea what the dynamic was. TFC has NEVER had a head coach who was also GM.

'Managing' our roster here means Curtis, not Armas, just as in LA it means Dennis de Kloese, not Greg Vanney.

Also, even in his MLS rookie of the year winning year, Omar wasn't a "line leader". LA Fans complained bitterly that as soon as Aj Delagarza was no longer paired with him he was LOST positionally, regularly, the same thing fans at Pachuca complained about. The year he went to Mexico, they were utterly relieved to have his million dollar brick of a salary off their books.

He's always been a great athlete and when someone's directing him, he was a good center back. But he was NEVER a line leader.

I'll concede Moor because you're right, he was crocked again in the middle of last year. But I'm not going to concede that anyone who's watched Omar play since he left the Galaxy thinks he's any fucking good, or a line leader. Pachuca fans thought he was a bomb scare every time he touched the pitch.


EDIT: Also on the "Dude WTF are you talking about" front: Perez isn't a motivating person. He's an assistant who usually speaks to the manager (who then speaks to the players). He's a tech head who looks at the game from a very technical perspective. He's not capable of doing what a manager needs to do to motivate the players to be better.

How the fuck do you know this? Because it seems like a guess phrased as a statement of fact.

They played pretty goddamn well last night, which one might suggest he had some role in. It was a cobbled together lineup but they looked pretty damn motivated. Again, my supposition based on what we see. But we don't get to see or hear his discussions with the team, so you have no way of backing that up at all.

Thrillos
09-15-2021, 10:42 AM
Dude wtf are you talking about today?

It's 100% about the coaching - but really you should be calling them Managers. The Article YOU POSTED even backs that up.
Vanney went in to LA, looked at the roster, saw what they had and what they lacked, and then made changes in order for them to get better. This is what managers do. They manage the roster in order for the team to get better.

Armas came in and didn't manage the roster. He didn't care about what the team had or lacked - he only cared about what he wanted, and that was to instil a particular style of play. A style of play that didn't suit what the team had

And because of this lack of managerial skills, the team went out and got random pieces that suited what Armas wanted, not what the team needed.
What the fuck are we doing with a player like Soteldo - great player! amazing talent. But that's not what this team needed. Service to the Strikers isn't our top issue. That's what Armas needed for his attacking style.

It's hard to blame the players when some of the them are thrusted into situations they have no business being in. The players know their situation is fucked, they're not idiots, they see what's happening. But what can they do? It's a demotivating situation.

and...not to shit on the guy because I like his football philosophy, but Perez isn't a motivating person. He's an assistant who usually speaks to the manager (who then speaks to the players). He's a tech head who looks at the game from a very technical perspective. He's not capable of doing what a manager needs to do to motivate the players to be better.

This!!

Thrillos
09-15-2021, 10:45 AM
You're confusing manager with GM.

At the end of last year, LA either let go or allowed contracts to expire on 17 of 30 players.

Vanney may have wanted that and asked for it, it may even be his decision. But it wasn't his job to do it, it was their GM, Dennis de Kloese.

You're assuming Armas didn't ask Curtis for changes, or that Armas somehow has a role in that decision. There's no guarantee AT ALL that that's the case. We have no idea what the dynamic was. TFC has NEVER had a head coach who was also GM.

'Managing' our roster here means Curtis, not Armas, just as in LA it means Dennis de Kloese, not Greg Vanney.

Also, even in his MLS rookie of the year winning year, Omar wasn't a "line leader". LA Fans complained bitterly that as soon as Aj Delagarza was no longer paired with him he was LOST positionally, regularly, the same thing fans at Pachuca complained about. The year he went to Mexico, they were utterly relieved to have his million dollar brick of a salary off their books.

He's always been a great athlete and when someone's directing him, he was a good center back. But he was NEVER a line leader.

I'll concede Moor because you're right, he was crocked again in the middle of last year. But I'm not going to concede that anyone who's watched Omar play since he left the Galaxy thinks he's any fucking good, or a line leader. Pachuca fans thought he was a bomb scare every time he touched the pitch.

I think you aren't grasping that a true Manager is an overlap between a Coach and GM. SAF was a Manager, Mourihno was a Manager. Vanney was a manager under Bez, he became a coach under curtis, didn't like the decisions he had no input in and then left be a Manager at LAG.

Coaches are typically assistant coaches, true managers have just as much input in roster moves as the GM. The GM's job is to execute them.

Canary10
09-15-2021, 10:51 AM
Two weeks. Right after the end of the statutory two week minimum.

They'll say two weeks but it'll be a month. :)

jloome
09-15-2021, 10:52 AM
I think you aren't grasping that a true Manager is an overlap between a Coach and GM. SAF was a Manager, Mourihno was a Manager. Vanney was a manager under Bez, he became a coach under curtis, didn't like the decisions he had no input in and then left be a Manager at LAG.

Coaches are typically assistant coaches, true managers have just as much input in roster moves as the GM. The GM's job is to execute them.

Again, this is pure supposition and has NEVER been the case in MLS. We have had cases for years of teams where the GM and coach didn't even get along, ala Mo and John Carver or Marsch and Curtis in NY.

Curtis didn't allow Marsch to make those decisions, Marsch went over his head and NY got rid of Curtis because they valued Marsch more.

It's not a lunchroom where the biggest bully gets the table he wants. We've had divided roles in this league forever. I'm not saying it's right, it's just an entirely different reality from the EPL, where most managers are also field bosses.

"True managers" is a fairytale. It's a job, with a job description, that they accept or not. Vanney didn't overule Bezbatchenko. Bez was in charge there. He may have been a GOOD GM and actually listened to his head coach, but that doesn't make the head coach the manager. That's not how jobs work.

Areathrasher
09-15-2021, 11:38 AM
Vermes is the only true old school manager type in MLS. https://www.sportingkc.com/club/technical-staff/peter-vermes/

Wonder if he fancies a change of scenery :lol:

Thrillos
09-15-2021, 12:02 PM
Again, this is pure supposition and has NEVER been the case in MLS. We have had cases for years of teams where the GM and coach didn't even get along, ala Mo and John Carver or Marsch and Curtis in NY.

Curtis didn't allow Marsch to make those decisions, Marsch went over his head and NY got rid of Curtis because they valued Marsch more.

It's not a lunchroom where the biggest bully gets the table he wants. We've had divided roles in this league forever. I'm not saying it's right, it's just an entirely different reality from the EPL, where most managers are also field bosses.

"True managers" is a fairytale. It's a job, with a job description, that they accept or not. Vanney didn't overule Bezbatchenko. Bez was in charge there. He may have been a GOOD GM and actually listened to his head coach, but that doesn't make the head coach the manager. That's not how jobs work.

I am losing your plot a bit...

But as Areathrasher mentioned, true managers are definitely not fairy tale as in addition to Vermes, you have Bruce Arena at NER. Plus your own article pointed to Vanney having direct input on the players he brought in. If anything our success was when Bez was the GM in terms of getting the players that Vanney wanted when he was a true Manager. You pointing to the fact that Bez was in charge and Vanney didn't overrule has nothing to do with Vanney being a true manager vs. a coach. It just proves you still don't understand the concept.

jloome
09-15-2021, 12:44 PM
No, it proves bez was the manager and Vanney was the coach. It’s not a concept, it’s reality.

I understand, after forty-five years of watching football, what the difference is.

You just confirmedyourself that Bez was in charge a and that there are some clubs where one guy does both jobs…. Which also means at most MLS clubs they DONT.

So you just confirmed I’m right.

People are wrong all the time. I went by memory on Drew Moor , was called out and admitted fault. Adults with humility admit it and move on. That way they are able to have continual productive discussions and don’t end up only posting a few hundred times in fourteen years.

I don’t agree with Jabbronies about our roster or Omar but I respect that he’s making actual points, not trying to pump a drowned corpse with air until it floats.

Edit : and it’s just disingenuous to pretend having input is the same as having decision making powers

Thrillos
09-15-2021, 02:58 PM
No, it proves bez was the manager and Vanney was the coach. It’s not a concept, it’s reality.

I understand, after forty-five years of watching football, what the difference is.

You just confirmedyourself that Bez was in charge a and that there are some clubs where one guy does both jobs…. Which also means at most MLS clubs they DONT.

So you just confirmed I’m right.

People are wrong all the time. I went by memory on Drew Moor , was called out and admitted fault. Adults with humility admit it and move on. That way they are able to have continual productive discussions and don’t end up only posting a few hundred times in fourteen years.

I don’t agree with Jabbronies about our roster or Omar but I respect that he’s making actual points, not trying to pump a drowned corpse with air until it floats.

Edit : and it’s just disingenuous to pretend having input is the same as having decision making powers

1. Being a bit older doesn't make you smarter, but amazing you try to use that to prove you are right
2. You are still stuck on titles vs. how they operate - never disagreed with the titles...
3. You are getting personal now while trying to say i don't have humility for just agreeing with you, look in the mirror dude
4. your edit comment still completely misses the mark of the point i was trying to make
5. sorry, no one let me know that having more posts than someone else means you get to look down on them, with the assumption that those with lower post counts mean they are having pointless conversation. (in all seriousness, the irony of that statement you made is utterly hilarious)

Overall, agree to disagree, don't feel like continuing to engage with someone that resorts to personal attacks when they don't like what they read/hear.

jabbronies
09-15-2021, 03:03 PM
You're confusing manager with GM.

At the end of last year, LA either let go or allowed contracts to expire on 17 of 30 players.
Vanney may have wanted that and asked for it, it may even be his decision. But it wasn't his job to do it, it was their GM, Dennis de Kloese.
You're assuming Armas didn't ask Curtis for changes, or that Armas somehow has a role in that decision. There's no guarantee AT ALL that that's the case. We have no idea what the dynamic was. TFC has NEVER had a head coach who was also GM.
'Managing' our roster here means Curtis, not Armas, just as in LA it means Dennis de Kloese, not Greg Vanney.


This is a bigger convo - but at the end of the day what I'm seeing:

If de Kloese was really managing the roster as you described it - he wouldn't have had to do this. Those 17 players would've been thoughtfully brought in as part of de Kloese bigger vision and all he needed was a new "coach" to play these players the way he envisioned it. (with only minor tweeks needed).

17 player overhaul is the new "Manager" coming in and saying - "this is what I need, please get it for me."
Some of those needs will be targeted specifically (such as VV and the 4 french guys), others would be "I need this type of player" and de Kloese getting players that fit that mold.

Obviously there is a partnership here and it's not a dictatorship like in European clubs. But I'm convinced, even in MLS, the teams that are successful are the ones where the "Coach/Manager" is doing the above things with the GM supporting by getting what he needs.





Also, even in his MLS rookie of the year winning year, Omar wasn't a "line leader". LA Fans complained bitterly that as soon as Aj Delagarza was no longer paired with him he was LOST positionally, regularly, the same thing fans at Pachuca complained about. The year he went to Mexico, they were utterly relieved to have his million dollar brick of a salary off their books.

He's always been a great athlete and when someone's directing him, he was a good center back. But he was NEVER a line leader.


Omar wasn't a backline leader prior to TFC. And Vanney said in his scrums that Omar wasn't a backline leader, but he did have some experience recently and Vanney said he had ways to accomodate that in order to get Omar the tools he would need to do the things the team needed him to do

And with hindsight being 20/20, for 2 solid years, Omar did do it. First with help from Bradley and when he went down, then with help from a double pivot of Delgado and Oso.

I'm not saying we keep him around, I think his time is over and that gamble on the 3rd year with a new manager was a flop
But what I am saying is he's not the incompetent donkey everyone is making him out to be - again with a proper manager in place, this could've been mitigated as it was for 2 very successful seasons.

Everyone has shit stained glasses on right now because the team is shit and they want Curtis out, which I agree with, but some of the points being brought up are BS




I'll concede Moor because you're right, he was crocked again in the middle of last year. But I'm not going to concede that anyone who's watched Omar play since he left the Galaxy thinks he's any fucking good, or a line leader. Pachuca fans thought he was a bomb scare every time he touched the pitch.






EDIT: Also on the "Dude WTF are you talking about" front: Perez isn't a motivating person. He's an assistant who usually speaks to the manager (who then speaks to the players). He's a tech head who looks at the game from a very technical perspective. He's not capable of doing what a manager needs to do to motivate the players to be better.

How the fuck do you know this? Because it seems like a guess phrased as a statement of fact.

They played pretty goddamn well last night, which one might suggest he had some role in. It was a cobbled together lineup but they looked pretty damn motivated. Again, my supposition based on what we see. But we don't get to see or hear his discussions with the team, so you have no way of backing that up at all.


I'm not going to lie, I only have what I'm given access to and it's not much to go on, but there are pretty clear indicators from:

Watching him in the sidelines: being back at the stadium, I'm again able to bring my binoculars and watch what people are doing. Unlike most other Managers, including Vanney, this guy is very subdued and not very vocal. His energy is calm, and his presence isn't as predominant as a manager should be. This laid back demeanour is by the leader rubs off on the players and it shows in the way they play. They don't have fight or bite in their play. They are late to challenges (usually not even showing up). They are soft on the ball. They don't have any fire being lit under their asses. You cannot tell me this team plays with any of that. which leads me to exhibit B

Watching what is posted on those All for One videos: I've created video docs similar to these for Target, Molson Canadian and Carlsberg, so I know these are glorified puff pieces that show exaggerated scenes of Triumph, or in our case, despair. They choose the most high energy, motivating elements to tell a story. And whenever they use his pre-game or post game or training clips - they are boring AF, low energy... They do this because this is the best they have. Trust me, if they had better, they would use better. We've seen it in other seasons of this series. He speaks like a technical coach giving directions in a training session. If you've ever experienced that, you'll know they are emotionless. The message he delivers isn't emotional. It's technical.


Listening to how he speaks in scrum: Same as above. He's boring. He speak very technically. He doesn't speak like someone who has hands on experience in the game. I don't know if he played pro or not, but he comes at certain topics from a "book perspective" when he should be coming at it from an "in-game perspective" Its hard for me to explain this one and I'll try and find an example in this when I get time.

jloome
09-15-2021, 03:19 PM
I’ll concede I see the same thing with him.
Last night has me thinking I was wrong but maybe that was just guys playing for their jobs. Looked more like fight and pride than we’ve seen all season.

Omar we’ll just agree to disagree on past seasons. I don’t think he was solid past the end of 2019. I think we agree his speed is totally gone now.

jloome
09-15-2021, 03:23 PM
Overall, agree to disagree, don't feel like continuing to engage with someone that resorts to personal attacks when they don't like what they read/hear.

Yeah, no lack of self awareness on your part whatsoever to having begun the personal insults with the suggestion I didn’t understand your incredibly witless point. None at all.

You want to get personal, don’t expect me or any other self respecting adult to just ignore it.

And if you choose not to debate, good. You’ve offered zero of value so far, unlike most posters here, so no great loss.

Thrillos
09-15-2021, 03:27 PM
Yeah, no lack of self awareness on your part whatsoever to having begun the personal insults with the suggestion I didn’t understand your incredibly witless point. None at all.

You want to get personal, don’t expect me or any other self respecting adult to just ignore it.

And if you choose not to debate, good. You’ve offered zero of value so far, unlike most posters here, so no great loss.

lol... wow

Kamp Berg
09-15-2021, 03:37 PM
I think this is where the discrepancy lies in the argument that Omar was worth more than 1 season:

{Omar wasn't a backline leader prior to TFC. And Vanney said in his scrums that Omar wasn't a backline leader, but he did have some experience recently and Vanney said he had ways to accomodate that in order to get Omar the tools he would need to do the things the team needed him to do

And with hindsight being 20/20, for 2 solid years, Omar did do it. First with help from Bradley and when he went down, then with help from a double pivot of Delgado and Oso.

I'm not saying we keep him around, I think his time is over and that gamble on the 3rd year with a new manager was a flop
But what I am saying is he's not the incompetent donkey everyone is making him out to be - again with a proper manager in place, this could've been mitigated as it was for 2 very successful seasons}

^Omar might not be a donkey, but you don’t pay over 1mil a season for a defender in MLS and have to compensate for him?! Any defender making over a mil in MLS right now should be someone that compensates for other cheaper players. In my opinion, he’s maybe the worst signing by Curtis to date for exactly this reason.

jloome
09-15-2021, 03:41 PM
I think Erickson Gallardo and Jozy’s extension were his worst ever but yeah, a deal that rich was way too much for season-and-a-half performance from a number two CB.

Tim Parker moved clubs twice during that period as I recall. LA let Walker Zimmerman go to Nashville in that period. There were much better options.

Kamp Berg
09-15-2021, 04:20 PM
I think Erickson Gallardo and Jozy’s extension were his worst ever but yeah, a deal that rich was way too much for season-and-a-half performance from a number two CB.

Tim Parker moved clubs twice during that period as I recall. LA let Walker Zimmerman go to Nashville in that period. There were much better options.

Jozy extension is definitely the worst, but I was thinking of intial contracts only. I rate Omar’s contract as worse than Gallardo because of Omar’s cap it. Also, Gallardo was also never expected to be the lynch pin of anything.

When Parker and Zimmerman were available I can remember praying we would get either of them, it’s part of what made Omar such a disappointing signing. Can you imagine if Zimmerman would have signed!?

Richard
09-15-2021, 04:28 PM
Was googling up worst PPG stats, and according to the wiki we are on pace for our worst season ever at 0.625 PPG.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Toronto_FC_seasons

We're comfortably on pace to now hold two spots on the top 10 worst PPG of all time.

https://www.gamblingsites.com/blog/ranking-10-worst-teams-mls-history/

Kamp Berg
09-15-2021, 05:01 PM
Was googling up worst PPG stats, and according to the wiki we are on pace for our worst season ever at 0.625 PPG.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Toronto_FC_seasons

We're comfortably on pace to now hold two spots on the top 10 worst PPG of all time.

https://www.gamblingsites.com/blog/ranking-10-worst-teams-mls-history/

Can you imagine looking at those stats and still thinking of hiring Olsen? Curtis did.

Hala Hrvatska
09-15-2021, 05:56 PM
Was googling up worst PPG stats, and according to the wiki we are on pace for our worst season ever at 0.625 PPG.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Toronto_FC_seasons

We're comfortably on pace to now hold two spots on the top 10 worst PPG of all time.

https://www.gamblingsites.com/blog/ranking-10-worst-teams-mls-history/


And imagine if we didn't have the highest payroll in all of MLS? Would we be pointless?

wopchop
09-15-2021, 07:23 PM
I rate Omar’s contract as worse than Gallardo because of Omar’s cap it. Also, Gallardo was also never expected to be the lynch pin of anything.



Really? Because apparently he was going to improve our team and make an impact NOW
https://www.torontofc.ca/news/toronto-fc-signs-venezuelan-winger-erickson-gallardo



“Erickson is a talented attacking player that will improve our team. He has good character and is excited to earn the respect of his teammates, meet our great fans, and he and his wife are looking forward to settling into the City of Toronto. He has speed, can shift directions quickly and can open up the game for himself and others. Mid-season can sometimes be challenging to step into a new team, particularly for young, international players. With that said, we’re excited to get him going because we believe he can make an impact now, and in the future,” said Toronto FC General Manager Ali Curtis.

spe18
09-15-2021, 07:31 PM
And imagine if we didn't have the highest payroll in all of MLS? Would we be pointless?

There was a point in 2012 when we were pointless, and I believe that was with the league's 3rd highest payroll at the time? :)

OgtheDim
09-15-2021, 07:45 PM
Payroll in this league is a measure of your spend on DPs and your willingness to spend Garber bucks. Its a particularly obtuse tool for judging team strength.

Kamp Berg
09-15-2021, 08:19 PM
Really? Because apparently he was going to improve our team and make an impact NOW
https://www.torontofc.ca/news/toronto-fc-signs-venezuelan-winger-erickson-gallardo

Gallardo was an unproven young player, Gonzalez was touted as the replacement for Moor. Not exactly the same thing.

wopchop
09-15-2021, 08:45 PM
Gallardo was an unproven young player, Gonzalez was touted as the replacement for Moor. Not exactly the same thing.
I don't disagree that he was young and unproven.
But our glorious GM touted him as an immediate impact player.
Clearly not the case. He has had zero impact.
You cannot say that about Omar, who has had an impact. Sure his 2021 season ain't stellar, but his last seasons were not disasters. Certainly better than Gallardo who didn't have any season.

Kamp Berg
09-15-2021, 09:03 PM
I don't disagree that he was young and unproven.
But our glorious GM touted him as an immediate impact player.
Clearly not the case. He has had zero impact.
You cannot say that about Omar, who has had an impact. Sure his 2021 season ain't stellar, but his last seasons were not disasters. Certainly better than Gallardo who didn't have any season.

Their impacts on the team are vastly different, not only by cap hit, but on-field as well. Gonzalez eats up way more cap space, and a decent CB is desperately needed, not a liability to be managed. Gallardo, on the other hand, was not needed, then or now.

portu
09-15-2021, 09:41 PM
I don't disagree that he was young and unproven.
But our glorious GM touted him as an immediate impact player.
Clearly not the case. He has had zero impact.
You cannot say that about Omar, who has had an impact. Sure his 2021 season ain't stellar, but his last seasons were not disasters. Certainly better than Gallardo who didn't have any season.
Was never convinced by Omar. He was laughed out of Mexico, showed up and did a mediocre job for us considering the stupid number he was on. Lazy signing from start to finish.

A lot of people on this forum seem to tout 2019 as a major success, but getting to that final was flukey as all hell and we were shakey for much of that year. 2020 is looking to be a little bit of luck and Vanney masterclass more than anything else in retrospect.

OgtheDim
09-16-2021, 05:48 AM
The seeds for this year go back to this moment

https://www.sportsnet.ca/soccer/tfc-celebrates-first-mls-cup-toronto-parade/

Bez followed up with contracts based on that year's performances & the high of that achievement - those hamstrung us.

The 6 month victory tour planned afterwards (constantly parading out the cup etc.) helped foster the hubris our team's players have still not recognised (Manning recognises that is an issue & the wholesale changes coming will reflect that)


A lot of this goes back to Bez & Manning in that offseason.

ag futbol
09-16-2021, 07:03 AM
The seeds for this year go back to this moment

https://www.sportsnet.ca/soccer/tfc-celebrates-first-mls-cup-toronto-parade/

Bez followed up with contracts based on that year's performances & the high of that achievement - those hamstrung us.

The 6 month victory tour planned afterwards (constantly parading out the cup etc.) helped foster the hubris our team's players have still not recognised (Manning recognises that is an issue & the wholesale changes coming will reflect that)


A lot of this goes back to Bez & Manning in that offseason.
Err, I think that’s over stating it a bit. We did come out after and have a good run in the CCL.

It starts with aging players and then followed with injuries through the end of 2018. The picture was hazy at that point but a sharper mind than Curtis’s would have seen the writing on the wall: time for a changing of the guard. We got lucky when Giovinco left but it wasn’t perceived that way. Curtis’s lack of sophistication and being blind sided by a public transfer request snowballed into his first major bad move: resigning Altidore.

Since then we’ve been slow and always a step behind the game. When we do address things the execution is poor. The CB signing in the form of Gonzalez was six months late. Solteldo, the winger we always wanted, was so late bigger burning issues existed by the time he arrived. Gonzalez isn’t a “leader” CB like we needed. Solteldo doesn’t score enough to be a secondary goal scoring threat like we required.

Ali Curtis’s (or Manning’s) inability to identify or anticipate and timely address the team’s most pressing needs is the root of our misfortune.

Edit: sure Bez screwed up some contracts in the form of Aketxe and VDW and plenty of other things. But I would say the important thing with Bez wasn’t that he got every move right, it’s that he knew to admit his mistakes and continue to work to address problems we all saw. Kantari and Perquis didn’t stop us from continuing our search for Drew Moor. In comparison, Ali Curtis lives in his cone of silence and thinks if he never mentions his screw-ups, nobody will notice.

We’re too proud to sign another CB, so we sign Kamal Lawrence. We cannot admit Altidore was a bad deal so we sign Solteldo. We put the blinders on and pretend things work, when it’s clear they don’t.

MightyDM
09-16-2021, 07:13 AM
The seeds for this year go back to this moment

https://www.sportsnet.ca/soccer/tfc-celebrates-first-mls-cup-toronto-parade/

Bez followed up with contracts based on that year's performances & the high of that achievement - those hamstrung us.

The 6 month victory tour planned afterwards (constantly parading out the cup etc.) helped foster the hubris our team's players have still not recognised (Manning recognises that is an issue & the wholesale changes coming will reflect that)


A lot of this goes back to Bez & Manning in that offseason.

Seba made that point at the beginning of the next season, remember?

MightyDM
09-16-2021, 07:19 AM
Err, I think that’s over stating it a bit. We did come out after and have a good run in the CCL.

It starts with aging players and then followed with injuries through the end of 2018. The picture was hazy at that point but a sharper mind than Curtis’s would have seen the writing on the wall: time for a changing of the guard. We got lucky when Giovinco left but it wasn’t perceived that way. Curtis’s lack of sophistication and being blind sided by a public transfer request snowballed into his first major bad move: resigning Altidore.

Since then we’ve been slow and always a step behind the game. When we do address things the execution is poor. The CB signing in the form of Gonzalez was six months late. Solteldo, the winger we always wanted, was so late bigger burning issues existed by the time he arrived. Gonzalez isn’t a “leader” CB like we needed. Solteldo doesn’t score enough to be a secondary goal scoring threat like we required.

Ali Curtis’s (or Manning’s) inability to identify or anticipate and timely address the team’s most pressing needs is the root of our misfortune.

Edit: sure Bez screwed up some contracts in the form of Aketxe and VDW and plenty of other things. But I would say the important thing with Bez wasn’t that he got every move right, it’s that he knew to admit his mistakes and continue to work to address problems we all saw. Kantari and Perquis didn’t stop us from continuing our search for Drew Moor. In comparison, Ali Curtis lives in his cone of silence and thinks if he never mentions his screw-ups, nobody will notice.

We’re too proud to sign another CB, so we sign Kamal Lawrence. We cannot admit Altidore was a bad deal so we sign Solteldo. We put the blinders on and pretend things work, when it’s clear they don’t.

I fully agree with this analysis, with the exception of the bold part. The team completely mishandled Seba and VV. it needed to have dealt with them earlier as they had clearly been requesting and as is done everywhere else, and if they couldn't come to an agreement have moved them properly, not let them choose their own timing and method of departure. Personally, I would have moved heaven and earth to keep them both for two more years - including overpaying, but that might not have been possible. Jozy needed to be resigned but the contract needed to protect TFC more ie shorter length or options heavily weighted to appearances, etc

jabbronies
09-16-2021, 08:26 AM
The funny thing about this thread is that we all agree that Curtis should leave.

The thing we are bickering over is what are the reasons why he should leave :P

Seems like the two camps are:

"Everything he did was bad, so he must go"

or

"Not everything he did was bad, but the majority of it was, so he must go"

ag futbol
09-16-2021, 09:37 AM
I fully agree with this analysis, with the exception of the bold part. The team completely mishandled Seba and VV. it needed to have dealt with them earlier as they had clearly been requesting and as is done everywhere else, and if they couldn't come to an agreement have moved them properly, not let them choose their own timing and method of departure. Personally, I would have moved heaven and earth to keep them both for two more years - including overpaying, but that might not have been possible. Jozy needed to be resigned but the contract needed to protect TFC more ie shorter length or options heavily weighted to appearances, etc
No arguments about Seba and VV’s contracts in the sense the mechanics were poor. I would argue though the result was the correct one. Those players were not worth the money they were going to get overseas. Altidore though I continue to disagree.

The price of being sentimental with that signing is where we find ourselves today. To draw a comparison: Serge Ibaka. Massai was able to see that even though the team needed someone at that position and the fans loved Ibaka and he was a big part of their championship run, he wasn’t the right guy because he was on the old side and had injury concerns. He has to hear the fan base groan but was proven right. We took the opposite, weak-kneed approach and paid the price.

This is an example of the honorariums at this club we have to end if we’re to move forward. We can’t get all teary about “but look what he did, we want him here forever”. We need to be more pragmatic, that’s just the business.

Ultra & Proud
09-16-2021, 11:18 AM
This should be his severance gift:



https://www.amazon.com/Juvale-Wooden-Spoon-Trophy-Competitions/dp/B077GS1JZH

Kamp Berg
09-16-2021, 01:34 PM
This should be his severance gift:



https://www.amazon.com/Juvale-Wooden-Spoon-Trophy-Competitions/dp/B077GS1JZH

A ‘walk of shame’ seems more suitable.

MightyDM
09-16-2021, 01:53 PM
No arguments about Seba and VV’s contracts in the sense the mechanics were poor. I would argue though the result was the correct one. Those players were not worth the money they were going to get overseas. Altidore though I continue to disagree.

The price of being sentimental with that signing is where we find ourselves today. To draw a comparison: Serge Ibaka. Massai was able to see that even though the team needed someone at that position and the fans loved Ibaka and he was a big part of their championship run, he wasn’t the right guy because he was on the old side and had injury concerns. He has to hear the fan base groan but was proven right. We took the opposite, weak-kneed approach and paid the price.

This is an example of the honorariums at this club we have to end if we’re to move forward. We can’t get all teary about “but look what he did, we want him here forever”. We need to be more pragmatic, that’s just the business.

You could not lose Seba, VV and Jozy at the same time. Possibly could have moved Jozy if you kept the first two, but once they failed to professionally deal with Seba and VV there was no choice. And i will continue to disagree with you - we should have kept Jozy, just a different kind of contract. But we have been around the block on this.

ag futbol
09-16-2021, 03:20 PM
You could not lose Seba, VV and Jozy at the same time. Possibly could have moved Jozy if you kept the first two, but once they failed to professionally deal with Seba and VV there was no choice. And i will continue to disagree with you - we should have kept Jozy, just a different kind of contract. But we have been around the block on this.
Agreed, we’ll go around in circles forever. Curse you and your contrary opinions! Lol.

MightyDM
09-16-2021, 04:25 PM
Agreed, we’ll go around in circles forever. Curse you and your contrary opinions! Lol.


hahaha

Hala Hrvatska
09-17-2021, 06:27 AM
You could not lose Seba, VV and Jozy at the same time. Possibly could have moved Jozy if you kept the first two, but once they failed to professionally deal with Seba and VV there was no choice. And i will continue to disagree with you - we should have kept Jozy, just a different kind of contract. But we have been around the block on this.

Never should have kept Altidore. He had constant injury problems and never took care of himself in the offseason coming into camp always way out of shape. HIs on and off the field s.hitty attitude was always an issue as well. And we end up signing him for a massive DPO contract that's killed us. Over $5M per year and he has scored 4 goals the last two seasons combined. And we play without a striker. We could have got some quality South American or Euro striker at fraction of the cost and had way more output. Imagine if we had a legit goal scorer to go with Poz and Soteldo?
Am tired of seeing Achara, Mullins and Dwyer run around like chickens with their heads cut off and zero end product. And also tired of seeing Altiroe go on Euro vacations to Paris and London watching tennis and seeing the sights on our dime while we lose game after game.

Kamp Berg
09-17-2021, 09:07 AM
Never should have kept Altidore. He had constant injury problems and never took care of himself in the offseason coming into camp always way out of shape. HIs on and off the field s.hitty attitude was always an issue as well. And we end up signing him for a massive DPO contract that's killed us. Over $5M per year and he has scored 4 goals the last two seasons combined. And we play without a striker. We could have got some quality South American or Euro striker at fraction of the cost and had way more output. Imagine if we had a legit goal scorer to go with Poz and Soteldo?
Am tired of seeing Achara, Mullins and Dwyer run around like chickens with their heads cut off and zero end product. And also tired of seeing Altiroe go on Euro vacations to Paris and London watching tennis and seeing the sights on our dime while we lose game after game.

Hahaha! Wait, this was meant to be funny, right?

Ultra & Proud
09-17-2021, 09:22 AM
You could not lose Seba, VV and Jozy at the same time.

Hindsight being 20/20, this would have been the best thing to happen to TFC. All three either went to shit or continued their declines after leaving. This was the time to change the make up of the squad to reflect the changes happening in MLS that we're still seeing today. Meanwhile we're still stuck in 2017 and most of the league has left us behind.

Hala Hrvatska
09-17-2021, 09:24 AM
Hahaha! Wait, this was meant to be funny, right?

No, nothing funny about it. The decision to resign Altidore has literally killed the team. And we are stuck with two options. Continue to have no DP striker and paying him $5M per year (5th highest salary in all of the MLS) to not play and continue to lose games...or bite the bullet for the disaster to resign him and pay a huge buy out to then get a an actual goal scorer and rebuild.

The choice is a matter of winning or continue to lose. Simple as that.

Canary10
09-17-2021, 09:25 AM
Hindsight being 20/20, this would have been the best thing to happen to TFC. All three either went to shit or continued their declines after leaving. This was the time to change the make up of the squad to reflect the changes happening in MLS that we're still seeing today. Meanwhile we're still stuck in 2017 and most of the league has left us behind.

VV's had a pretty good year at LA so far.

Hala Hrvatska
09-17-2021, 09:28 AM
Hindsight being 20/20, this would have been the best thing to happen to TFC. All three either went to shit or continued their declines after leaving. This was the time to change the make up of the squad to reflect the changes happening in MLS that we're still seeing today. Meanwhile we're still stuck in 2017 and most of the league has left us behind.

Fully agreed.

How anyone in the club though with all of Altidore's injury problems, his lack of motivation to come into preseason ever in shape would magically change is an absolute negligence in doing their jobs and a fireable offense. Altidore doesnt give two shi.ts and is laughing all the way to the bank. Everyone walks around on egg shells with him and we are screwed because of it. Buy him out now and lets get on with it and try to rebuild. We can't afford another season of Altidore not playing but having to fork over a massive salary to get no goals again. We are so predictable and easy to defend. Doubtle team Soteldo and mark Poz as we have no other options.

Ultra & Proud
09-17-2021, 09:31 AM
VV's had a pretty good year at LA so far.

But he's basically a sub. Not a lot of minutes but he's been good. Not TAM level or anything like we would have had to pay him to stay in Toronto though and he would be a luxury signing that wouldn't help our lack of team speed.

Kamp Berg
09-17-2021, 09:33 AM
No, nothing funny about it. The decision to resign Altidore has literally killed the team. And we are stuck with two options. Continue to have no DP striker and paying him $5M per year (5th highest salary in all of the MLS) to not play and continue to lose games...or bite the bullet for the disaster to resign him and pay a huge buy out to then get a an actual goal scorer and rebuild.

The choice is a matter of winning or continue to lose. Simple as that.

The Altidore extension was definitely one of the worst pieces of business in recent history, so I agree with you there, but there was so much hyperbole in the rest of your statement, I thought it must be a joke. Who cares what MLSE spends? MLSE is a minuscule part of Rogers and Bell, almost insignificant. It has no impact, other than to make the board members feel big and important. Read Soccernomics, it will change your view on the football world. Well, it will change your viewpoint if you like facts.

Hala Hrvatska
09-17-2021, 09:38 AM
The Altidore extension was definitely one of the worst pieces of business in recent history, so I agree with you there, but there was so much hyperbole in the rest of your statement, I thought it must be a joke. Who cares what MLSE spends? MLSE is a minuscule part of Rogers and Bell, almost insignificant. It has no impact, other than to make the board members feel big and important. Read Soccernomics, it will change your view on the football world. Well, it will change your viewpoint if you like facts.

Ill give it a read, thanks for the recommendation.

MightyDM
09-17-2021, 10:46 AM
But he's basically a sub. Not a lot of minutes but he's been good. Not TAM level or anything like we would have had to pay him to stay in Toronto though and he would be a luxury signing that wouldn't help our lack of team speed.

VV has played 19 games with 15 starts

Michael Bradley only 5 more appearances. He’s a starter on a good team - but whose minutes need to be managed.

MightyDM
09-17-2021, 10:58 AM
“Altidore constantly showed up not in shape” is flat out untrue. Fair enough to say a club should not resign a player with an injury history, but let’s not rewrite history. Last year there were issues apparently COVID quarantine related but it’s just false to say he showed up out of shape in 2018 and 2019.

And sorry, it’s all hindsight to say the club should have got rid of its three best players a year after winning everything. This isn’t a video game; elite scorers like Jozy are very hard to come by - let alone players like Seba. If you were judging in 2018 form injury etc to let one of these players go, VV would have been the one given his serious injury history and he has started 15 games this year for a decent team.

I stand by my earlier statement that they should have moved heaven and earth to extend Seba and VV for a couple of years, including overpaying.

Jozy is a legend.

Ultra & Proud
09-17-2021, 11:01 AM
Jozy is a legend.

He's been legendary for all the wrong reasons since signing that deal in 2018.

Hala Hrvatska
09-17-2021, 12:20 PM
He's been legendary for all the wrong reasons since signing that deal in 2018.

Exactly.