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OgtheDim
07-04-2021, 07:56 PM
Thanks to Kristin Knowles pointing his website out


https://www.javierfootball.com/index.html



All stuff seems prior to his hiring this year but....he seems to have ideas.

MikeForbes
07-04-2021, 08:05 PM
Interesting stuff. I am more than willing to give him a chance. Let's hope he seizes the opportunity and we can avoid searching for another coach.

ag futbol
07-04-2021, 08:25 PM
Principles, point 8:

8. AVOID TOO MUCH MOVEMENT OF THE PLAYERS BY RESPECTING THEIR TACTICAL POSITION.

I like it. If he doesn’t already have PTSD from his old boss I think this is a good place to start.

Kamp Berg
07-04-2021, 08:32 PM
Thanks to Kristin Knowles pointing his website out


https://www.javierfootball.com/index.html



All stuff seems prior to his hiring this year but....he seems to have ideas.

Sounds more like Vanney.

barticusz
07-04-2021, 09:00 PM
He lists his top 5 formations as:

1. 4-3-3
2. 4-2-3-1
3. 4-4-2
4. 4-4-2 (diamond)
5. 4-2-4

Richard
07-04-2021, 09:07 PM
Some quick facts from the TFC site. A solid resume, maybe he can step up and be the main man?



Assistant coach with New York City FC, where he spent four seasons (2016-20).
Perez spent four years with US Soccer, serving as head coach of the U-18 Men’s National Team and assistant coach with both the U.S. Men’s National Team and U.S. U-20 Men’s National Team.
Part of the senior men’s national team’s staff at the 2014 FIFA World Cup in Brazil and the U-20 squad at the 2015 U-20 FIFA World Cup in New Zealand.
Before coming to the US in 2007, Perez spent six years at Real Madrid as a head coach for youth teams from U-9 to U-19 at the club’s foundation development center (2001-2007)
Perez holds his UEFA Pro License, UEFA “A” License and a Ph.D. in Sports Science from Universidad De Leon in Spain


https://www.torontofc.ca/news/javier-perez-assistant-coach

jloome
07-04-2021, 09:29 PM
Some quick facts from the TFC site. A solid resume, maybe he can step up and be the main man?



Assistant coach with New York City FC, where he spent four seasons (2016-20).
Perez spent four years with US Soccer, serving as head coach of the U-18 Men’s National Team and assistant coach with both the U.S. Men’s National Team and U.S. U-20 Men’s National Team.
Part of the senior men’s national team’s staff at the 2014 FIFA World Cup in Brazil and the U-20 squad at the 2015 U-20 FIFA World Cup in New Zealand.
Before coming to the US in 2007, Perez spent six years at Real Madrid as a head coach for youth teams from U-9 to U-19 at the club’s foundation development center (2001-2007)
Perez holds his UEFA Pro License, UEFA “A” License and a Ph.D. in Sports Science from Universidad De Leon in Spain


https://www.torontofc.ca/news/javier-perez-assistant-coach

Seems like a career dev coach. But people used to say that about Brian Schmetzer.

noxx98
07-04-2021, 09:32 PM
Other than not having head coaching experience at the senior level, Perez seems like exactly who TFC should have hired at the outset. Even without that, he has head coached a number of youth teams. Seems like the perfect steward for the team.

noxx98
07-04-2021, 09:35 PM
There's a number of videos on Youtube from his time with the US U-18 team. Nothing earth shattering, but no major concerns either: https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=javier+perez+MNT+US

ensco
07-04-2021, 09:46 PM
I have two mottos that I live by: look before you leap, and he who hesitates is lost.

Oldtimer
07-04-2021, 09:52 PM
Sounds more like Vanney.

With some differences, but his style will fit this squad much better than the Chris Armas.

I like coaches who think tactics and positions, and like to use players natural strengths.

A solid education too, has his papers.

DavemTFC
07-04-2021, 10:14 PM
Much more confident in him now that it seems he has ideas that aren't Armas-ball related.

Frankly I think this season is a wash now but at least having him for at least a few games should make us respectable again

jloome
07-04-2021, 10:23 PM
Thanks to Kristin Knowles pointing his website out


https://www.javierfootball.com/index.html



All stuff seems prior to his hiring this year but....he seems to have ideas.

He appears to have co-authored the U.S. soccer development curriculum with Claudio Reyna:

https://www.slideshare.net/jafetwullur/us-soccer-coaching-curriculum

leedsandTFC
07-04-2021, 11:19 PM
infinitely more qualified than armas and seems to have lots of good ideas.

hopefully can get us going again

Blindside16
07-05-2021, 02:29 AM
He has nothing to lose. If the team continues a downward trend, they were demoralized from Armas and I did what I could. If he manages to turn it around, then the "interim" tag gets removed. He has nothing to lose and everything to gain, may as well go balls to the wall

PizzaEatingYeti
07-05-2021, 04:45 AM
Principles, point 8:

8. AVOID TOO MUCH MOVEMENT OF THE PLAYERS BY RESPECTING THEIR TACTICAL POSITION.

I like it. If he doesn’t already have PTSD from his old boss I think this is a good place to start.

WOW, this is the single point which caught up my attention, and I just wanted to post it here... lol (I have just looked through the coach's website).
It seems that minds who know "something" about football think alike...

PizzaEatingYeti
07-05-2021, 04:56 AM
Well, maybe I am too rushed in my opinion, but just by looking through his resume and his personal website, this guy seems a LOT more qualified to coach TFC than Armas was. Not even close...

I wish him luck and for this year to be an important forever upward tick in his coaching career!
He comes in at a very bad point in time for TFC and a very lucky point in time for him, because given all the circumstances, he has absolutely nothing to lose, but everything to gain.

ensco
07-05-2021, 06:01 AM
I would be really careful ascribing any “symbolic” value to this website.

It's a nice, well organized collection of sensible soccer beliefs ... and fifty people here could do something similar given time and motive.

Hiring done right is really all about in depth conversation with previous colleagues, employees, employers. It is about asking really good questions and listening really carefully, because people mostly hide their criticisms, or are not totally straightforward about them. (People default to bromides when discussing ex colleagues 90% of the time, in my experience.)

It is about having deep networks, and then using them right - knowing who to trust, and how much to trust them. It is attribution analysis (who was really responsible for a particular success or failure?). It is knowing what you don't know. It is a lot of work (and this seems to me to be exactly where Manning/Curtis blew it with Armas and elsewhere).

Hiring managers is a truly elite skill. It is harder than evaluating players. Every candidate has a plan, is great at interviewing. Will tell you exactly how they will fix everything. There is no film.

We are not positioned to succeed from the outside in evaluating new hires. This is what they pay Manning/Curtis a lot of money for.

It's all on Manning/Curtis.

OgtheDim
07-05-2021, 06:16 AM
I am with ensco on this - to me this is an introduction indicating what the man might be like.


I would point out that he came either

because Armas really wanted to work with him & sought him out as his second

or

because he was always the fall back guy in case Armas didn't work out



I would put this down as #2 and as such give Curtis/Manning a little credit for at least having an interim in place.

Doesn't mean he can't be crud & unlikely to mean Wednesday night is anything but a paddlin.....but I'll take this as a good start

ensco
07-05-2021, 06:37 AM
I like that he is interim, and I am rooting for him but … let's be clear-eyed about a couple of things.

We don’t have any idea of how the players see him. Putting aside the question of who brought him here and why, this isn’t Robin Fraser stepping in.

This isn’t the right team/league to get your first job as a head man. He got passed over at NYCFC for this exact reason I assume…

Canary10
07-05-2021, 07:01 AM
It’s a bit odd to me that he’s been very involved in the game, but mostly as an assistant or more of a strategy level. He’s had a lot of time to move up but hasn’t until now. Wondering if he’s lacking the people skills? Wish him all the best, but as with anyone the proof will be in the results.

Ultra & Proud
07-05-2021, 08:49 AM
It’s a bit odd to me that he’s been very involved in the game, but mostly as an assistant or more of a strategy level. He’s had a lot of time to move up but hasn’t until now. Wondering if he’s lacking the people skills? Wish him all the best, but as with anyone the proof will be in the results.
His age might have been a hinderance. He is pretty young still. Not easy getting a manager's gig during the 30's as no matter what he did, he would be conceived as inexperienced.

jabbronies
07-05-2021, 09:10 AM
Principles, point 8:

8. AVOID TOO MUCH MOVEMENT OF THE PLAYERS BY RESPECTING THEIR TACTICAL POSITION.

I like it. If he doesn’t already have PTSD from his old boss I think this is a good place to start.

The thing I remember being taught was "let the ball do the running, save your running energy to evade and surpass"

I get the high press thing, but TFC isn't built for that. That is not our clubs style of play. Our identity is more possession and methodical passing and movement. That is what Vanney established and that is what we should build on.
Closing down the opponents with the ball is something we should be doing anyways, but not chasing players down in order to do it. If we are setup properly, it should only take a few steps to close someone down. Not 20 yard sprints like we were doing under Armas

Oldtimer
07-05-2021, 09:37 AM
His strategy #6 about creating numerical advantage is very similar to Vanney, that's using positioning to create "overload" situations and is part of intelligent footballing as espoused by more tactical coaches like Pep Guardiola. Our club should be very familiar with this type of strategy so it should be a quick relearn.

ag futbol
07-05-2021, 09:49 AM
The thing I remember being taught was "let the ball do the running, save your running energy to evade and surpass"

I get the high press thing, but TFC isn't built for that. That is not our clubs style of play. Our identity is more possession and methodical passing and movement. That is what Vanney established and that is what we should build on.
Closing down the opponents with the ball is something we should be doing anyways, but not chasing players down in order to do it. If we are setup properly, it should only take a few steps to close someone down. Not 20 yard sprints like we were doing under Armas
I agree. I made the point in another thread too, if you look at the history of Soccer in Canada and especially the GTA, you’ll face a pretty sceptical eye from some quarters if you’re playing a highly athletic game without a good element of skill.

Historically, for a lot of the ex-pat communities, a skilled, more possession-based game was their way. And they always felt overlooked / discriminated against by the CSA /OSA which ran a pretty dysfunctional setup and largely assessed players based on their athletic abilities. You dump a skilled game for a more athletic approach and that’s raising people’s ire. The fact it failed this time, again, just leaves one more reference point in people’s mind that says possession + skill > athleticism

Of course, a press at the highest level requires both athleticism and skill and it’s not bad to watch. But it’s hard to do that in MLS given the talent level.

I think it’s a no brainer that we should stick with what Vanney started, keep a possession based style, and tweak it very slightly when needed. It’s just the best fit.

Curtis and Armas are dopes for taking something that worked and trying to change it for their own preferences. If we had a functional board, that never would have been allowed in the first place.

jabbronies
07-05-2021, 10:47 AM
I agree. I made the point in another thread too, if you look at the history of Soccer in Canada and especially the GTA, you’ll face a pretty sceptical eye from some quarters if you’re playing a highly athletic game without a good element of skill.

Historically, for a lot of the ex-pat communities, a skilled, more possession-based game was their way. And they always felt overlooked / discriminated against by the CSA /OSA which ran a pretty dysfunctional setup and largely assessed players based on their athletic abilities. You dump a skilled game for a more athletic approach and that’s raising people’s ire. The fact it failed this time, again, just leaves one more reference point in people’s mind that says possession + skill > athleticism


When i was growing up, English and Scottish football approaches were rampant everywhere I looked.
"Kick and run", hockey equivalent would be "dump and chase", was what everyone seemed to be pushing.

The Italian clubs I encountered were doing the opposite, which is where I learned the more methodical approach.

The Spanish clubs I encountered were playing more Central American style football which I hated. It was basically run with the ball as far as you can go, quickly recover if the ball is lost and continue the pattern. Very selfish approach and lacked any sort of real tactical insight.




Of course, a press at the highest level requires both athleticism and skill and it’s not bad to watch. But it’s hard to do that in MLS given the talent level.
I think it’s a no brainer that we should stick with what Vanney started, keep a possession based style, and tweak it very slightly when needed. It’s just the best fit.

Curtis and Armas are dopes for taking something that worked and trying to change it for their own preferences. If we had a functional board, that never would have been allowed in the first place.

Spot on! MLS doesn't have a lot of players that have both skill and athleticism. It's one or the other. The high press was two guys (armas and Curtis) thinking too big.

Everyone is hating on Manning for letting it happen, but I don't. He trusted Curtis the to do something that he felt would work. That is what any good leader would do. He quickly ended it once he saw it wasn't going the right way.

In the presser Manning kept referring to "My Teams" when referring to projects he's be a part of in the past? "This TFC team wasn't progressing how MY TEAMS that have won championships did in the past"

A shitty leader would've let it go on and given it time to mature. Manning isn't an idiot like others believe. He knows what it takes to win.

Canary10
07-05-2021, 11:00 AM
When i was growing up, English and Scottish football approaches were rampant everywhere I looked.
"Kick and run", hockey equivalent would be "dump and chase", was what everyone seemed to be pushing.

The Italian clubs I encountered were doing the opposite, which is where I learned the more methodical approach.

The Spanish clubs I encountered were playing more Central American style football which I hated. It was basically run with the ball as far as you can go, quickly recover if the ball is lost and continue the pattern. Very selfish approach and lacked any sort of real tactical insight.



Spot on! MLS doesn't have a lot of players that have both skill and athleticism. It's one or the other. The high press was two guys (armas and Curtis) thinking too big.

Everyone is hating on Manning for letting it happen, but I don't. He trusted Curtis the to do something that he felt would work. That is what any good leader would do. He quickly ended it once he saw it wasn't going the right way.

In the presser Manning kept referring to "My Teams" when referring to projects he's be a part of in the past? "This TFC team wasn't progressing how MY TEAMS that have won championships did in the past"

A shitty leader would've let it go on and given it time to mature. Manning isn't an idiot like others believe. He knows what it takes to win.

I had English and Welsh coaches and it was never kick and run. Always focused on possession. I think it's a bit of stereotype to label English football kick and run. We did play 4-4-2 though, lol.

jabbronies
07-05-2021, 11:03 AM
His age might have been a hinderance. He is pretty young still. Not easy getting a manager's gig during the 30's as no matter what he did, he would be conceived as inexperienced.


Another major component for a manager is the ... man management. Can he deal with the egos that an elite locker room brings? Can he deal with a big personality like a Jozy Altidore? He's never played at a professional level, so he's never had those real heated "man-to-man" interactions before. He's never had those hard 1on1 conversations with players.

I see this guy as a caretaker only. Let's hope the players are willing to go along with it until we can find a proper manager.

You'd think at this point TFC would be an ideal project for someone to take on. With that being said, the MLS coaching pool is tiny and most of the big guns are taken.

DavemTFC
07-05-2021, 12:30 PM
MLS has multiple teams that can high press effectively. The difference is these teams are young and very athletic, which we really aren't at the moment

ag futbol
07-05-2021, 12:36 PM
I had English and Welsh coaches and it was never kick and run. Always focused on possession. I think it's a bit of stereotype to label English football kick and run. We did play 4-4-2 though, lol.
I try not to think of the historical rift as English vs Continental as much as it was old-school dysfunctional administrators vs. recent upstarts.

But the low-skill / preference for athleticism thing is very real. I experienced that myself as a player and later as a coach. I had a TD tell me if he had one more cut to make he would released my best player, cause he was undersized and didn’t really get stuck in often. Ended the year as the leading scorer and basically played his way into a better club than the one I was managing.

OgtheDim
07-05-2021, 12:55 PM
One good read about the old school is in Kloke's book - reading up on how managers like MoJo didn't really do training beyond "throw the ball out there after basic stretching". This continued right up to Vanney.

FootBallAZ
07-07-2021, 09:13 AM
When i was growing up, English and Scottish football approaches were rampant everywhere I looked.
"Kick and run", hockey equivalent would be "dump and chase", was what everyone seemed to be pushing.

The Italian clubs I encountered were doing the opposite, which is where I learned the more methodical approach.

The Spanish clubs I encountered were playing more Central American style football which I hated. It was basically run with the ball as far as you can go, quickly recover if the ball is lost and continue the pattern. Very selfish approach and lacked any sort of real tactical insight.



Spot on! MLS doesn't have a lot of players that have both skill and athleticism. It's one or the other. The high press was two guys (armas and Curtis) thinking too big.

Everyone is hating on Manning for letting it happen, but I don't. He trusted Curtis the to do something that he felt would work. That is what any good leader would do. He quickly ended it once he saw it wasn't going the right way.

In the presser Manning kept referring to "My Teams" when referring to projects he's be a part of in the past? "This TFC team wasn't progressing how MY TEAMS that have won championships did in the past"

A shitty leader would've let it go on and given it time to mature. Manning isn't an idiot like others believe. He knows what it takes to win.



Let's slow down a bit.

Trusted curtis- he didnt even interview many others for the position he passed off to a friend/colleague he had previous playing experience with. How is this a sign of a good leader- you generally want to hire the best or at the very minimum interview extensively .

Any good leader- wouldnt allow DP Jozy to be banished, wouldnt allow curtis to treat supporters like nobodies(the lack of communication is a big red flag-like he knows better/is better than to communicate with the supporters)

Quickly ended- TFC has 5 points, and has conceded more goals than all of last season combined- I would say he is about three to four games too late - team morale could be significantly impacted.

shitty leader would let it go on- manning didnt do anything until TFC had the worst loss in history, the 5th worse loss in league history, team allowing 7 goals when the opposition scored a total of 11 goals prior to this game, and lastly had to wait for innebriatti to light a fire under Manning to do something.
Unfortunately manning should be on the hot seat, it all started with the way he handle Seba's contract and Jozy- trying to strong arm north american sports business into soccer, big red flag- ego popping out here.

The fact, he hired a friend with very little credentials or merit, the fact that many of the red bulls supporters and TFC saw how this would be an issue prior to even one game.


Don't forget about, the signings that made TFC look like fools and ended up paying much more for Poz.



Really he should be hiring someone to run operations for him who will hire a GM and a competent coach who can maximize the best out of the roster, instead of trying to bend players will to their vision/strategy.

The last misstep is how do you provide continuity to build on successful season , close to winning supporters shield, fresh of a finals appearance.


The proof of concept has been in front of his face for many seasons and he decides to try to be cute.

he needs to go.


and the fact he had to highlight his "winning resume" speaks volumes that he is insecure about his future and had to sell hard that he knows what he is doing, when in fact, ever since Tim L left its all been going down hill.

At least the raptors have it correct, although they had a terrible season, every move made especially now in hindsight was the right one.

Ultra & Proud
07-07-2021, 09:21 AM
Don't forget about, the signings that made TFC look like fools and ended up paying much more for Poz.

I don't think this matters much at all since it's the Belgium way. If we're going to be outraged over a couple million more then the President of Lille should be fired for David's signing (same thing happened) and is happening now with Yaremchuk. It's the Belgium way to screw around, say they have no cover and waste time all to get a few more bucks. Argentina has their quirks, Brazil has theirs, and this is the Belgium transfer quirk that prospective buyers need to be prepared for.

jloome
07-07-2021, 10:25 AM
The proof of concept has been in front of his face for many seasons and he decides to try to be cute.he needs to go.

On the whole, you're right.

He really fucked the dog by trusting an old colleague. He probably though Curtis was brilliant from conversational depth and outward self-confidence in his own ideas.

But someone can display considerable depth of intellect in one area of thinking but be quite terrible at others, due to the compartmentalized nature of various neurological functions.

In other words, you can have a photographic memory that makes you seem like a genius, but be curtailed by immaturity that prevents depth of consideration, or by poor comprehension skills due to slow development of the ability to compare and contrast.

Equally, you can have brilliant comprehension skills that make you able to understand or analyze situations well, but have poor recall or inattention that leads to missing details necessary for the ideal analysis.

It's why track record and seeing steady improvement in someone's history are so important to determining how they'll likely behave. No one who honestly analyzed Armas' performance in New York thought it was going to go smoothly here. But because of allowing personal biases into the mix, Manning's ability to see reality was strongly curtailed.

Having said that, I've made the same mistake -- albeit with less money at stake -- and survived it. Hell, I did it two or three times for differing reasons of sympathy. I once hired a former bank robber who'd been a great political reporter before his alcohol-fueled, shotgun-aided run on Calgary banks. There were issues that prevented it from working, as one might expect, but he was a good guy. Stupid hire, though. I should've seen some pretty obvious signs that other employers weren't just "not giving me a chance", as the guy lamented, but sussing out personality problems.

So I suspect Manning survives this IF he nails the landing. But that's the tough part; he's always walked into sweetheart setups, in Tampa, in RSL, where the team had a coach and lineup that was competitive. Same here.

Now he has to make it really work. And if he doesn't, it's unlikely he'll get the same "step back and reboot" chance he got with the NFL twenty years ago. Once you're over fifty, boy do those phones stop ringing.

Ultra & Proud
07-07-2021, 11:05 AM
So I suspect Manning survives this IF he nails the landing. But that's the tough part; he's always walked into sweetheart setups, in Tampa, in RSL, where the team had a coach and lineup that was competitive. Same here.

Now he has to make it really work. And if he doesn't, it's unlikely he'll get the same "step back and reboot" chance he got with the NFL twenty years ago. Once you're over fifty, boy do those phones stop ringing.
I agree. This interim hire and full time hire will dictate whether he survives. I think in the meantime Curtis is demoted to yes man and guy writing up contracts. If this hire goes poorly then both are toast. I think if even the interim goes badly or mediocre it might mean the end of Curtis as it's directly due to his insistance on Armas that left us with minimal mid season options.

jloome
07-07-2021, 11:18 AM
I agree. This interim hire and full time hire will dictate whether he survives. I think in the meantime Curtis is demoted to yes man and guy writing up contracts. If this hire goes poorly then both are toast. I think if even the interim goes badly or mediocre it might mean the end of Curtis as it's directly due to his insistance on Armas that left us with minimal mid season options.

Yeah, and from Manning's body language, I'm betting he asked "Are you certain?" more than a few times, based on how the end of Armas' NY tenure went.

It might just be that both seriously underestimated the growth in the league's tactical requirements and that players aren't of the same uniquely workman-like pedigree of MLS 1.0 players, who were largely taught they could play anywhere and adjust to anything, because their opposition were also journeymen and pluggers.

Olsen, Mo, Yallop.... they all espoused this philosophy that roles and tactics weren't that important, that it was still up to the individual player's skillset. But that's ancient history; teams in the Premiership that play that way get demolished. Ask Jozy about his time at Sunderland, the most selfish of teams I've seen at that level, where players largely did whatever they wished on the pitch.

Someone quoted a book yesterday about TFC's early days, maybe the DeRo book, not sure. But the quote was something about MO just treating training session as kickabouts. The Don Revie--Higuain approach of "a good player can play with a cigarette hanging from his lip". A lot of players go into management still believing their egocentric take that they mostly did it all themselves.

OgtheDim
07-07-2021, 11:59 AM
..

Someone quoted a book yesterday about TFC's early days, maybe the DeRo book, not sure. But the quote was something about MO just treating training session as kickabouts. The Don Revie--Higuain approach of "a good player can play with a cigarette hanging from his lip". A lot of players go into management still believing their egocentric take that they mostly did it all themselves.


That was me

Kloke's book - not perfect & I still think John Molinaro will have the definitive take when he does one - but describes the lack of training habits in the midst of discussing the chaos of those earlier years.

Auzzy
07-07-2021, 03:47 PM
I don't think this matters much at all since it's the Belgium way. If we're going to be outraged over a couple million more then the President of Lille should be fired for David's signing (same thing happened) and is happening now with Yaremchuk. It's the Belgium way to screw around, say they have no cover and waste time all to get a few more bucks. Argentina has their quirks, Brazil has theirs, and this is the Belgium transfer quirk that prospective buyers need to be prepared for.

They did screwed up with that. They did that here, with all our salary and roster restrictions, not in Belgium. Maybe the Belgians don't think the transaction made TFC look like fools, but MLS and MLSE folks might. And they certainly stressed out & pissed off plenty of TFC fans. This was an issue that started under Bill Manning and Bez; can't fault Curtis as much on this, although his glacial pace of decision making and player signings probably didn't help.

As ensco wrote in one of the threads: they thought they had the upper hand with Seba and Jozy. They thought they could force them to start the last year of their contracts w/o an extension in place. Note I don't think they should have overpaid for Seba or Jozy; just negotiated earlier. After Seba helped set personal and team records, they wouldn't even honour the option year on his contract. I doubt Seba would have accepted it, but for the team not to even offer the option year, given his performance, was an unwarranted slap to the face.

They could have negotiated with Seba earlier; let him go to Saudi Arabia at the start of their transfer window. Then they could have signed Poz on a free w/o any extra costs, delays or transfer soap, at the time when he was negotiating with a Middle Eastern club in early 2019. Poz would have had a rest after a lengthy season; trained with TFC from the start; and been available for CCL which would have helped with the shit show we saw there in 2019.

Seba called their bluff and ditched them. The Poz signing was late and tortured. And to placate the higher-paying SSH that were pissed about losing Seba, they signed Jozy to a bad panic deal (and had no alternative to Jozy lined up to sign instead). They were in a bad bargaining position as a result, Jozy's agent knew that and got what he wanted from TFC.

portu
07-07-2021, 06:23 PM
They did screwed up with that. They did that here, with all our salary and roster restrictions, not in Belgium. Maybe the Belgians don't think the transaction made TFC look like fools, but MLS and MLSE folks might. And they certainly stressed out & pissed off plenty of TFC fans. This was an issue that started under Bill Manning and Bez; can't fault Curtis as much on this, although his glacial pace of decision making and player signings probably didn't help.

As ensco wrote in one of the threads: they thought they had the upper hand with Seba and Jozy. They thought they could force them to start the last year of their contracts w/o an extension in place. Note I don't think they should have overpaid for Seba or Jozy; just negotiated earlier. After Seba helped set personal and team records, they wouldn't even honour the option year on his contract. I doubt Seba would have accepted it, but for the team not to even offer the option year, given his performance, was an unwarranted slap to the face.

They could have negotiated with Seba earlier; let him go to Saudi Arabia at the start of their transfer window. Then they could have signed Poz on a free w/o any extra costs, delays or transfer soap, at the time when he was negotiating with a Middle Eastern club in early 2019. Poz would have had a rest after a lengthy season; trained with TFC from the start; and been available for CCL which would have helped with the shit show we saw there in 2019.

Seba called their bluff and ditched them. The Poz signing was late and tortured. And to placate the higher-paying SSH that were pissed about losing Seba, they signed Jozy to a bad panic deal (and had no alternative to Jozy lined up to sign instead). They were in a bad bargaining position as a result, Jozy's agent knew that and got what he wanted from TFC.
What was shocking in all of this is that when Seba to Saudi started to unfold they elected to panic sign Jozy (injured and in decline) instead of up their offer and fight to keep the best player in MLS history.

I found it laughable watching Jozy argue for an extension at the same time as Seba to be honest. Like Robin arguing to be treated like Batman.

(FTR: I thought they should have sold Jozy that year, and held firm on a slight and not major Seba pay decrease.)

Areathrasher
07-08-2021, 08:32 AM
So I just found this


He already has a Ph.D in Exercise Physiology, a UEFA PRO license from Royal Spanish Football Federation – one of three coaches in Spain to have both honors, and studied at some of the top clubs across Europe.

Should we be coming up with Doctor nicknames for him?

It's from this article https://www.topdrawersoccer.com/club-soccer-articles/meet-new-u18-head-coach-javier-perez_aid24036 couple of familiar names on his first US U18 roster.

OgtheDim
07-08-2021, 08:54 AM
Pump the brakes a little bit on last night
Perez made a basic error in the subs.

He only did 3 & did them all as singles. If we had a non-concussion injury after Seteldo was subbed off, we would have been skrewed.

And, the subs were a tad late.

ag futbol
07-08-2021, 09:09 AM
Pump the brakes a little bit on last night
Perez made a basic error in the subs.

He only did 3 & did them all as singles. If we had a non-concussion injury after Seteldo was subbed off, we would have been skrewed.

And, the subs were a tad late.
It might just be a matter of that’s who he trusts. Others were probably short odds to get on the field no matter the circumstances. I don’t disagree with it given how badly the team needed a win. Hand was also forced slightly with guys cramping.

We’ll see in subsequent games. But, to me, the use of Endoh and DeLeon, and some of the other moves suggest this guy will be a suitable interim hire. Sort of a hard-ass, read straight from the playbook type, with no curveballs. Nobody looked overjoyed to be playing for him, he won’t be a Chris Cummings “players coach” . He’s probably good for 5 games or so to prevent the ship from taking on any more water.

Doubt he’ll be the permanent hire. That said, perhaps I’ll be proven wrong. Not much you can do with a team on 2 days notice.

rydermike
07-08-2021, 09:51 AM
Pump the brakes a little bit on last night
Perez made a basic error in the subs.

He only did 3 & did them all as singles. If we had a non-concussion injury after Seteldo was subbed off, we would have been skrewed.

And, the subs were a tad late.

With the way the game was going, I think it was intentional. Feel like he wanted a veteran lineup out there. The rest of the unused bench was all young guys - Okello, Nelson, Marshall Rutty, and Shaff. He wanted the veterans to close out the game

jloome
07-08-2021, 11:15 AM
https://www.tsn.ca/toronto-fc-set-to-name-interim-coach-for-remainder-of-mls-season-1.1665414

Bradley has positive words about Perez. He would, of course. But still nice to know there's some history there from work with nats.

Areathrasher
07-08-2021, 11:26 AM
So Bradley, Omar and Jozy know him from USMNT
Bono and Delgado from US 18's
Ayo might be familiar with him from U20's too

ag futbol
07-08-2021, 11:57 AM
So the interim will remain in place for the rest of the season. Do Manning and Curtis do anything that isn’t an exercise in buying more time?

When Curtis finally gets around to dealing with the Altidore situation, Jozy’s contract will have been expired for 6 months

Ultra & Proud
07-08-2021, 12:05 PM
So the interim will remain in place for the rest of the season. Do Manning and Curtis do anything that isn’t an exercise in buying more time?

When Curtis finally gets around to dealing with the Altidore situation, Jozy’s contract will have been expired for 6 months
The whole point of the interim is to see out the season. They said as much in their presser and that makes sense. I wouldn't want them to just name some random guy in a week.

As for Jozy, he will probably be on the bench on the 17th so that's sorted for now.

ag futbol
07-08-2021, 12:28 PM
The whole point of the interim is to see out the season. They said as much in their presser and that makes sense. I wouldn't want them to just name some random guy in a week.

As for Jozy, he will probably be on the bench on the 17th so that's sorted for now.
I agree there is no need to rush hire someone but I am wary given the process we just concluded. Mid 2020 it should have been clear to Curtis and Manning that Vanney wasn’t coming back (you don’t sit on an offer like that unless you have no intention of signing it). They basically waited and then took the entire offseason to perform a search and rushed Armas in the door shortly before training camp.

Now, we’ve got an interim manager “for the rest of the year”. Just wait for the rushed process in this offseason, followed by the desire to have new players that meet the new managers style that can’t be found for at least another window, followed by some other thing they can’t quite figure out for an extended period of time.

They’ll have to extend Curtis and Manning’s contracts again just to deal with the backlog.

Edit: let’s not forget a lot of the market for coaches will drive off of the euro offseason and not necessarily North America. So they theoretically have options now, they might not have in six months. Maybe not better ones, but at least different.

Ultra & Proud
07-08-2021, 12:40 PM
I agree there is no need to rush hire someone but I am wary given the process we just concluded. Mid 2020 it should have been clear to Curtis and Manning that Vanney wasn’t coming back (you don’t sit on an offer like that unless you have no intention of signing it). They basically waited and then took the entire offseason to perform a search and rushed Armas in the door shortly before training camp.

Now, we’ve got an interim manager “for the rest of the year”. Just wait for the rushed process in this offseason, followed by the desire to have new players that meet the new managers style that can’t be found for at least another window, followed by some other thing they can’t quite figure out for an extended period of time.

They’ll have to extend Curtis and Manning’s contracts again just to deal with the backlog.

Edit: let’s not forget a lot of the market for coaches will drive off of the euro offseason and not necessarily North America. So they theoretically have options now, they might not have in six months. Maybe not better ones, but at least different.
I would think they're hoping Perez succeeds and we squeak into the playoffs or come real close to it. Then it will be considered a positive recovery and like "a miracle" after the Armas bust then they'll name Perez as the premanent manager to add some feelgood-ness to it all.

I would still prefer Alonso but I gave Armas a shot even though I didn't want to so Perez deserves the same.

ensco
07-08-2021, 01:04 PM
https://www.tsn.ca/toronto-fc-set-to-name-interim-coach-for-remainder-of-mls-season-1.1665414

Bradley has positive words about Perez. He would, of course. But still nice to know there's some history there from work with nats.

Perez basically claiming he is manager just because nobody has said otherwise and daring Manning not to name him.

In a different world, Perez would get fired for doing this. Pour encourager les autres, as Napoleon said about his practice of purging a general every month.

Most amusing, and speaks to the weak position Manning and Curtis are in.

Ultra & Proud
07-08-2021, 01:40 PM
Perez basically claiming he is manager just because nobody has said otherwise and daring Manning not to name him.

In a different world, Perez would get fired for doing this. Pour encourager les autres, as Napoleon said about his practice of purging a general every month.

Most amusing, and speaks to the weak position Manning and Curtis are in.
I think that's a stretch. That's pretty much what I say about projects and various things I do at work myself. I am doing it unless I hear otherwise. If it's anything like my case, it's because he probably rarely sees or hears from the bosses so he has no idea what's up. In that case you just go business as usual until told different.

ag futbol
07-08-2021, 01:48 PM
I would think they're hoping Perez succeeds and we squeak into the playoffs or come real close to it. Then it will be considered a positive recovery and like "a miracle" after the Armas bust then they'll name Perez as the premanent manager to add some feelgood-ness to it all.

I would still prefer Alonso but I gave Armas a shot even though I didn't want to so Perez deserves the same.
That might be their game plan. A strong external hire could easily step in an challenge Bill and Ali’s authority. They’d want to avoid that, I think.

MightyDM
07-08-2021, 01:55 PM
Perez basically claiming he is manager just because nobody has said otherwise and daring Manning not to name him.

In a different world, Perez would get fired for doing this. Pour encourager les autres, as Napoleon said about his practice of purging a general every month.

Most amusing, and speaks to the weak position Manning and Curtis are in.

Slight edit: "speaks to the weak position Manning and Curtis have put themselves in."

Ultra & Proud
07-08-2021, 02:39 PM
That might be their game plan. A strong external hire could easily step in an challenge Bill and Ali’s authority. They’d want to avoid that, I think.
Or else they'll double down on the transition to the press and get a more reputable manager to come and do it properly, like with actual tactics and things of that nature.

Canary10
07-08-2021, 02:48 PM
I just saw a tweet from Sportsnet that said TFC is naming an interim coach in "the next few days."

ensco
07-08-2021, 02:52 PM
I think that's a stretch. That's pretty much what I say about projects and various things I do at work myself. I am doing it unless I hear otherwise. If it's anything like my case, it's because he probably rarely sees or hears from the bosses so he has no idea what's up. In that case you just go business as usual until told different.

You are right, in in way, that is how the real world works… but it isn’t how the culture of football works, where the role of the press is important (unlike your workplace).

There is a clearly understood meaning to interim and they did not appoint Perez interim. In fact, they buried him in the presser Sunday. They gave him the NE game and nothing else.

So Perez asserting that he is the manager until told otherwise is kind of brash, and points out to the world that they aren’t communicating with him. All he had to say was “I will do whatever I am asked” and he and Manning both know it.

Listen, like I said, I like it. People are going to be taking runs at Curtis and Manning now. Sometimes you gotta grab the ring. Go Javier!

Canary10
07-08-2021, 03:04 PM
As someone who works in government, I have to really appreciate this quote from Curtis in all its non-sensical and ambiguous glory:


"(The) goal is to name a permanent interim (coach) prior to Monday training, likely before that.”

jloome
07-08-2021, 03:06 PM
You are right, in in way, that is how the real world works… but it isn’t how the culture of football works, where the role of the press is important (unlike your workplace).

There is a clearly understood meaning to interim and they did not appoint Perez interim. In fact, they buried him in the presser Sunday. They gave him the NE game and nothing else.

So Perez asserting that he is the manager until told otherwise is kind of brash, and points out to the world that they aren’t communicating with him. All he had to say was “I will do whatever I am asked” and he and Manning both know it.

Listen, like I said, I like it. People are going to be taking runs at Curtis and Manning now. Sometimes you gotta grab the ring. Go Javier!

Yeah, ballsy move.

My experience in getting promoted repeatedly despite being kind of nuts at the time is they don't care as long as you come good; but ballsy and speaking your mind when it really matters pretty much always beats staying quiet and taking it up the rump. Nobody ever got anywhere by not doing anything (okay, completely untrue in business where quiet easy going guys are peter princpled all the fucking time. But it sounded good).

Red CB Toronto
07-08-2021, 03:18 PM
Naming an interim to replace a temp or whatever you want to call him. The interim I assume is coming from within I would assume but you never know?


As someone who works in government, I have to really appreciate this quote from Curtis in all its non-sensical and ambiguous glory:


"(The) goal is to name a permanent interim (coach) prior to Monday training, likely before that.”

Ultra & Proud
07-08-2021, 03:26 PM
As someone who works in government, I have to really appreciate this quote from Curtis in all its non-sensical and ambiguous glory:


"(The) goal is to name a permanent interim (coach) prior to Monday training, likely before that.”
"Permanent Interim". Nice.

Oldtimer
07-08-2021, 03:29 PM
Why am I imagining Curtis phoning his buddies seeing if any of them want to be interim, with Perez being a backup choice?

Richard
07-08-2021, 03:37 PM
Yeah, ballsy move.

My experience in getting promoted repeatedly despite being kind of nuts at the time is they don't care as long as you come good; but ballsy and speaking your mind when it really matters pretty much always beats staying quiet and taking it up the rump. Nobody ever got anywhere by not doing anything (okay, completely untrue in business where quiet easy going guys are peter princpled all the fucking time. But it sounded good).

I like it. He is basically telling management he wants a shot or fire me too, maybe tired of being second fiddle.

I don't see why he shouldn't get a shot, he has got experience as an assistant, can work with youth, he really has nothing to loose form his perspective.

Is TFC going to find a better interim on such short notice?

Canary10
07-08-2021, 03:43 PM
"Permanent Interim". Nice.

Yeah I liked that too.

Also the timeline. The goal is Monday, maybe before that. It could conceivably take longer too, but Monday was just the goal, not a hard deadline.

OgtheDim
07-08-2021, 03:44 PM
As someone who works in government, I have to really appreciate this quote from Curtis in all its non-sensical and ambiguous glory:


"(The) goal is to name a permanent interim (coach) prior to Monday training, likely before that.”

Totally private sector - didn't use the word "stakeholder" or "consultation"

jloome
07-08-2021, 03:45 PM
I like it. He is basically telling management he wants a shot or fire me too, maybe tired of being second fiddle.

I don't see why he shouldn't get a shot, he has got experience as an assistant, can work with youth, he really has nothing to loose form his perspective.

Is TFC going to find a better interim on such short notice?

I don't know how much coaching it takes to say "keep it simple, move in triangles, maintain your defensive shape and zone."

I seriously think that's all we did differently last night. We overlapped when it was there, we tried to break through the lines methodically with short, quick passes. Fewer mistakes equals fewer mistakes to be capitalized on.

But either way, he said the right things. I figure they should give him at least a couple more but with the Gold Cup break here, if they're going another way it will be now.

jloome
07-08-2021, 03:46 PM
Knowing Curtis it will be an MLS 1.0 panic interim, Curt Onalfo or Dominic Kinnear. Terrible move, probably, but it would be par for the course for him to not even consider the dude who just won a game against the east leaders.

Canary10
07-08-2021, 03:51 PM
Totally private sector - didn't use the word "stakeholder" or "consultation"

Ha, fair. Although we don't consult, we engage.

Richard
07-08-2021, 04:07 PM
Knowing Curtis it will be an MLS 1.0 panic interim, Curt Onalfo or Dominic Kinnear. Terrible move, probably, but it would be par for the course for him to not even consider the dude who just won a game against the east leaders.


I don't know how much coaching it takes to say "keep it simple, move in triangles, maintain your defensive shape and zone."

I seriously think that's all we did differently last night. We overlapped when it was there, we tried to break through the lines methodically with short, quick passes. Fewer mistakes equals fewer mistakes to be capitalized on.

But either way, he said the right things. I figure they should give him at least a couple more but with the Gold Cup break here, if they're going another way it will be now.

Yeah I know it's way to soon to judge, the coach, and the team as well given he was given it was like two days.

If we need someone to steady the ship I think you look at some like Schellas Hyndman. Not sure if he is up for this generation of MLS, but he fits into Mannings rolodex I think. Currently coaching NCAA.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schellas_Hyndman

DavemTFC
07-08-2021, 04:17 PM
I hope you're wrong because Hyndman is the epitome of MLS 1.0

MightyDM
07-08-2021, 07:55 PM
I found this part of the article astonishing; I think it means that if they dont name a "Permanent Interim" Javier will be an "Interim interim": A source, granted anonymity because they were not authorized to speak on the matter, said TFC does not plan an official announcement extending Perez's interim role. Instead , Perez will just be allowed to continue in the job.

Bushmancan
07-08-2021, 10:04 PM
WTF now, I think Curtis might be looking for someone who will implement his plan. Cant have Perez because he actually won, keeping it simple. #secretNYRBplot #curtisout

PizzaEatingYeti
07-09-2021, 02:26 PM
Why am I imagining Curtis phoning his buddies seeing if any of them want to be interim, with Perez being a backup choice?

Because it's exactly what he's doing right now... :facepalm:

jabbronies
07-09-2021, 02:40 PM
I found this part of the article astonishing; I think it means that if they dont name a "Permanent Interim" Javier will be an "Interim interim": A source, granted anonymity because they were not authorized to speak on the matter, said TFC does not plan an official announcement extending Perez's interim role. Instead , Perez will just be allowed to continue in the job.




There's no point in bringing anyone in at this point to just be a caretaker. We have one, stick with him until you can find the right guy.

And there's no need to make grand announcements about extending Perez as the caretaker.

These were bills exact words:

"...Look to have an interm in place for the time being and then as we move forward see how that goes and then make a longer term decision as we see how it plays out..."

Javier IMO is that interm. I would hate to see an outsider brought in to see out the season. It's a waste of time.

James17930
07-10-2021, 08:12 AM
I'm actually starting to feel angry now at Armas being hired when I look at Perez's CV - the guy is fucking light years more qualified than Armas to be coach ... what the hell is he doing only as an assistant?

This reeks to me of a guy who has just never been given a chance for whatever reason even though he deserves it. Maybe he's always been too sanguine.

I think he should realize this is finally his chance, grab it by the balls and make it his job.

MightyDM
07-10-2021, 10:56 AM
There's no point in bringing anyone in at this point to just be a caretaker. We have one, stick with him until you can find the right guy.

And there's no need to make grand announcements about extending Perez as the caretaker.

These were bills exact words:

"...Look to have an interm in place for the time being and then as we move forward see how that goes and then make a longer term decision as we see how it plays out..."

Javier IMO is that interm. I would hate to see an outsider brought in to see out the season. It's a waste of time.

I agree with you.

But if they are going with Javier they should say it. Incredibly disrespectful to him, to the club, and to the supporters not to confirm it. Imagine Man U or Chelsea behaving that way - oh yea, “Giggs is taking the club for today’s match” and then silence? And what message does it send to the players if you don’t actually say “this guy is the one”. It’s bizarre and unprofessional.

Richard
07-10-2021, 11:02 AM
I agree with you.

But if they are going with Javier they should say it. Incredibly disrespectful to him, to the club, and to the supporters not to confirm it. Imagine Man U or Chelsea behaving that way - oh yea, “Giggs is taking the club for today’s match” and then silence? And what message does it send to the players if you don’t actually say “this guy is the one”. It’s bizarre and unprofessional.

Yeah the presser was sloppy, nothing was prepared in regards to statements. It took John Molinaro and like 10 minutes into the overall presser to have Perez confirmed as interim. Should that not be the second item on your list of things to talk about?

It's like they begrudgingly gave him the job because they realized no-one wants to come into the shit show.

Now we got Perez showing them two up by talking about "no-one has told me otherwise" regarding coaching the next game.

I think Ensco is right about Manning and Curtis being in a weak position. Lets just hope this Perez guy isn't going to get all egotistical.

Strange all around.

MightyDM
07-10-2021, 11:24 AM
Yeah the presser was sloppy, nothing was prepared in regards to statements. It took John Molinaro and like 10 minutes into the overall presser to have Perez confirmed as interim. Should that not be the second item on your list of things to talk about?

It's like they begrudgingly gave him the job because they realized no-one wants to come into the shit show.

Now we got Perez showing them two up by talking about "no-one has told me otherwise" regarding coaching the next game.

I think Ensco is right about Manning and Curtis being in a weak position. Lets just hope this Perez guy isn't going to get all egotistical.

Strange all around.
Yes. We don’t know Perez or much about him, except he won his first game with excellent football in the first half and he has a pretty impressive background.

Ultra & Proud
07-12-2021, 09:37 PM
Yes. We don’t know Perez or much about him, except he won his first game with excellent football in the first half and he has a pretty impressive background.
Excited to see what he can do with some actual prep time.

613reppingTFC
07-13-2021, 08:37 AM
Perez was named to MLS team of the week, along with Soteldo

https://www.mlssoccer.com/news/team-of-the-week-presented-by-audi-toronto-fc-make-a-splash-in-week-12

jloome
07-26-2021, 10:50 AM
https://as.com/futbol/2021/07/26/migrantes_del_balon/1627296979_266794.html

Making the papers in Spain. Nothing we don't know already, but some notable attention.

rydermike
07-27-2021, 11:43 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Jcpe3hhYpg&ab_channel=RedPatchBoys

Oldtimer
07-27-2021, 01:42 PM
https://as.com/futbol/2021/07/26/migrantes_del_balon/1627296979_266794.html

Making the papers in Spain. Nothing we don't know already, but some notable attention.

Thanks.

Google translate of the last paragraph:


The Valladolid man has a great advantage: he has known many of his footballers for almost a decade. He managed Delgado on the US Youth national team and coincided with Bradley and Altidore, two of the locker room's heavyweights, in the senior team. "It is something that, as a coach, I must take advantage of," said Javier Pérez who was forced to, at least, bring Toronto FC closer to the play-off positions for the MLS Cup. After 15 matches played and with eight still ahead , the 'reds' occupy the 11th position in the Eastern Conference and are nine points behind the seventh place. They will fight. And they will do it accompanied by their fans because, after several months settled in the United States due to travel restrictions due to the pandemic, they were able to return to Toronto and play at their stadium, BMO Field. Good news never comes by itself.

Oldtimer
08-27-2021, 09:15 AM
Perez, while better than Armas, doesn't seem to be our long term solution.

jloome
08-27-2021, 12:50 PM
Perez, while better than Armas, doesn't seem to be our long term solution.

It's a bit unfair on him to judge but that's probably the case.

The roster situation right now is a serious problem. But it's clear from player statements (Omar thinks they've been 'naive', which is what arrogance looks like to the arrogant) that they think it's bad luck or 'naivete' or some other factor than talent.

It's not. It's talent, or inability brought on by age. We were already unbalanced, now even our better players are older and slower and can't accept it.

I don't think there's much he can do to influence a group so deluded by its own largesse. Once the initial bounce was over, they lost the "urgency" we saw early in the win and draws and went back to the "swagger" of thinking they can dictate the speed of the game.

That's not going to change until the personnel changes. But if they clean house, the new GM will want to hire his own guy, and why wouldn't he, given how little actual managing experience Perez has.

This just isn't the "first shot" for anyone.

What they probably should do is throw enough money at Jim Curtin to be GM and head coach that he can't turn it down. I don't imagine Philly is paying him what he's worth.

noimpactinmtl
08-27-2021, 08:45 PM
It's a bit unfair on him to judge but that's probably the case.

The roster situation right now is a serious problem. But it's clear from player statements (Omar thinks they've been 'naive', which is what arrogance looks like to the arrogant) that they think it's bad luck or 'naivete' or some other factor than talent.

It's not. It's talent, or inability brought on by age. We were already unbalanced, now even our better players are older and slower and can't accept it.

I don't think there's much he can do to influence a group so deluded by its own largesse. Once the initial bounce was over, they lost the "urgency" we saw early in the win and draws and went back to the "swagger" of thinking they can dictate the speed of the game.

That's not going to change until the personnel changes. But if they clean house, the new GM will want to hire his own guy, and why wouldn't he, given how little actual managing experience Perez has.

This just isn't the "first shot" for anyone.

What they probably should do is throw enough money at Jim Curtin to be GM and head coach that he can't turn it down. I don't imagine Philly is paying him what he's worth.

How long did it take Jim Curtin to build up Philadelphia's academy into an Ajax of North America? Might be too long for the fans to be patient for.

MikeForbes
08-27-2021, 10:00 PM
We are definitely leading into a world wide search that ends with Ben Olsen.

gracos
08-27-2021, 10:10 PM
18% Perez compared to 13% Armas of total points, Perez is just Armas Jr.

OgtheDim
08-27-2021, 10:19 PM
Bob Bradley as coach and GM.

Not sure I like it but....its the most likely outcome right now

MikeForbes
08-27-2021, 10:36 PM
Bob Bradley as coach and GM.

Not sure I like it but....its the most likely outcome right now

I could definitely see it happening.

Auzzy
08-28-2021, 01:01 AM
Bob Bradley as coach and GM.

Not sure I like it but....its the most likely outcome right now

First thing that comes to mind is... dour.

Ultra & Proud
08-28-2021, 09:31 AM
Bob Bradley as coach and GM.

Not sure I like it but....its the most likely outcome right now
Arteta should be available and unwanted by anyone good in Europe shortly.



*meant as a joke and a dig at Arsenal but....

ag futbol
08-28-2021, 11:45 AM
Arteta should be available and unwanted by anyone good in Europe shortly.



*meant as a joke and a dig at Arsenal but....
We’re well practiced at passing the ball around the 18 and not shooting. He’s the perfect fit.

Kamp Berg
08-28-2021, 12:09 PM
I feel bad for Perez. He probably expects everyone on the team to be able to handle basic tasks. Which is probably the reason why he’ll never succeed as a MLS coach unless he works for a good GM. I’m not sure if accepting the interim job was a good decision on his part, may do more damage than good for his career.

wopchop
08-28-2021, 01:36 PM
I feel bad for Perez. He probably expects everyone on the team to be able to handle basic tasks. Which is probably the reason why he’ll never succeed as a MLS coach unless he works for a good GM. I’m not sure if accepting the interim job was a good decision on his part, may do more damage than good for his career.
It really is an impossible choice.
Accepting the job has obvious pitfalls
But not accepting could also raise questions in the future.
"Why didn't you take it? Did you not feel ready?"
"The team needed you to step up"
Etc.

Kamp Berg
08-28-2021, 01:50 PM
It really is an impossible choice.
Accepting the job has obvious pitfalls
But not accepting could also raise questions in the future.
"Why didn't you take it? Did you not feel ready?"
"The team needed you to step up"
Etc.

Yeah, good point, no good choice really.

MightyDM
08-28-2021, 05:24 PM
I feel bad for Perez. He probably expects everyone on the team to be able to handle basic tasks. Which is probably the reason why he’ll never succeed as a MLS coach unless he works for a good GM. I’m not sure if accepting the interim job was a good decision on his part, may do more damage than good for his career.

he did well at the beginning, and was brave with Bradley / Altidore sub. Hasnt been able to solve the defence - which is a personnel issue - but last night should have brought Marky on as soon as it was 1-1 and put him beside Bradley. Probably sat Poz then. 1-1 for this club at this moment a man down would have been a great result.

Thrillos
08-30-2021, 01:34 PM
I think Perez is a good coach, but not a manager or 'head coach'. We got the new manager bounce with him, we see some improved play and positioning. What disappeared with new manager bounce was the motivation with the players. This is why i saw he is a good coach, and not a good manager. He doesn't have the 'fire' to be man manage. He seems to me like a Carlos Quieroz, excellent assistant coach but not a good manager.

When we tied the game against MTL, I realized this issue, because we had some fire on the field and intensity. But it only showed up (barely) in the rivalry match, which means it wasn't Perez that brought it out.

I feel bad for him as i am sure he will have a great coaching career, just not as a head coach. We need to get someone who can man manage.

Super
08-30-2021, 02:10 PM
I think Perez is a good coach, but not a manager or 'head coach'. We got the new manager bounce with him, we see some improved play and positioning. What disappeared with new manager bounce was the motivation with the players. This is why i saw he is a good coach, and not a good manager. He doesn't have the 'fire' to be man manage. He seems to me like a Carlos Quieroz, excellent assistant coach but not a good manager.

When we tied the game against MTL, I realized this issue, because we had some fire on the field and intensity. But it only showed up (barely) in the rivalry match, which means it wasn't Perez that brought it out.

I feel bad for him as i am sure he will have a great coaching career, just not as a head coach. We need to get someone who can man manage.

I agree, if individual players are unmotivated then they need to be benched or let go. But when the whole team is unmotivated then it's on the manager. So far I don't think Perez is the right choice for us beyond this season, but then I'm also nervous who they'll pick in his place. I have VERY low expectations from management at this point. VERY low.

MightyDM
08-31-2021, 07:49 AM
I don’t agree with that criticism of Perez. Showing you will bench anyone certainly motivates others. I think the lack of fire is from the terrible defence. How can you get up for games every week if you know we will give up weak goals? Totally demotivating.

Ultra & Proud
08-31-2021, 08:47 AM
I don’t agree with that criticism of Perez. Showing you will bench anyone certainly motivates others. I think the lack of fire is from the terrible defence. How can you get up for games every week if you know we will give up weak goals? Totally demotivating.
I find Perez demotivating himself. His personality is that of the professor in Ferris Beuller. Key to successful MLS managers is getting the most out of the middle to low tier players on the roster and I can't say anyone improved at all under Perez.

As for his tactical acumen; haven't seen much of that either. All he basically did was revert to the basics and bench one leader for the equivalent of one match and the other is injured again so there's nothing in that. That's high school football coach level management. So far I haven't seen him change a match with tactics and the only time he changed a match with a sub was against NYCFC but that's somewhat because of the Bradley/Jozy removal & moreso Achara throwing unseen energy and movement up top. Perez still stubornly sticks with what is proven not work (Gonzalez at the back), our offensive movement is worse than under Vanney, and the high possession/low risk basic passing game hasn't done much to stabilize the defense. There isn't one manager in the CPL and probably USL that couldn't have managed what Perez has. I also refuse to buy into the "unbalanced, no depth" excuses either. Sure we don't have the squad to win anything but we should be better than Wooden Spoon level and historically bad. Not saying great but at least 18th to 20th overall or so. To be able to threaten the record of our 2012 team is ridiculous.

MightyDM
08-31-2021, 09:26 AM
I find Perez demotivating himself. His personality is that of the professor in Ferris Beuller. Key to successful MLS managers is getting the most out of the middle to low tier players on the roster and I can't say anyone improved at all under Perez.

As for his tactical acumen; haven't seen much of that either. All he basically did was revert to the basics and bench one leader for the equivalent of one match and the other is injured again so there's nothing in that. That's high school football coach level management. So far I haven't seen him change a match with tactics and the only time he changed a match with a sub was against NYCFC but that's somewhat because of the Bradley/Jozy removal & moreso Achara throwing unseen energy and movement up top. Perez still stubornly sticks with what is proven not work (Gonzalez at the back), our offensive movement is worse than under Vanney, and the high possession/low risk basic passing game hasn't done much to stabilize the defense. There isn't one manager in the CPL and probably USL that couldn't have managed what Perez has. I also refuse to buy into the "unbalanced, no depth" excuses either. Sure we don't have the squad to win anything but we should be better than Wooden Spoon level and historically bad. Not saying great but at least 18th to 20th overall or so. To be able to threaten the record of our 2012 team is ridiculous.

Jury is out for me. I cannot tell from television whether his tactics are followed by the players because you need to see the movement of those off the ball, which is very hard to do on TV.

Criticizing him for playing Gonzalez is unfair because there isn’t an option. What are you suggesting he do?

The only thing he hasn’t tried defensively is Mavinga and Morrow (which looks to be our best CB pairing at the moment.) Zavaleta cost us points two games in a row; Singh isn’t ready.

And yes, most of his career has been as a number two - but it’s been at a very high level. I can accept criticism of his calm demeanor (although I don’t fully agree) but I don’t think we are in a position to properly evaluate tactical acumen and my default is that he knows what he is doing.

MightyDM
08-31-2021, 09:29 AM
Also, we have an unbalanced line up that gives up easy goals all the time and doesn’t score. The blame lies elsewhere for me.

ag futbol
08-31-2021, 09:47 AM
Also, we have an unbalanced line up that gives up easy goals all the time and doesn’t score. The blame lies elsewhere for me.
I agree, primary cause of or woes currently.

That said, I tend to agree with Thrillos Perez is a good coach but not a head coach.

Ultra & Proud
08-31-2021, 10:03 AM
Criticizing him for playing Gonzalez is unfair because there isn’t an option. What are you suggesting he do?

Laryea - Lawrence - Mavinga - Auro

Lawrence or Morrow are the two better options but at this point, would it be any worse to use Dunn or use a 3 CB line up to at least offer stability.

Also Gonzalez is no better than Singh or Zavaleta. All get caught out, all get wrong sided, and all make poor and rash decisions. The biggest difference is that Gonzalez gets some leaniency from the refs where the other two don't. Realistically he could be carded out every match by how often he has to grab and lean on attacking players. I know there aren't a lot of choices but to suggest he is somehow any better isn't right either.

jloome
08-31-2021, 10:28 AM
I find Perez demotivating himself. His personality is that of the professor in Ferris Beuller. Key to successful MLS managers is getting the most out of the middle to low tier players on the roster and I can't say anyone improved at all under Perez.

As for his tactical acumen; haven't seen much of that either. All he basically did was revert to the basics and bench one leader for the equivalent of one match and the other is injured again so there's nothing in that

The game he took Bradley out of he also switched from a double pivot to stacking the no 6 and no 8 positions so we could play through the lines.

Additionally, he recognized that Priso's speed would make major difference and benched Michael Bradley, which was a major tactical step.

Who is he supposed to play at the back OTHER than Gonzalez? Everyone else other than Mavinga is even worse; Julian Dunn is just back from injury, so the one youth we have who might step in wasn't available. You want him to snap his fingers and find us defenders? The sole remaining option that might be preferable now that Mavinga is back is sitting Gonzalez and playing Justin Morrow there, but keep in mind he played all of 20 games there for San Jose and fans said he was TERRIBLE at it.

Lawrence has even less experience there at NYRB, AND that puts Mavinga onto his weaker right side.

Simple saying "we moved the ball better under Vanney" and "we shouldn't lose this much" doesn't offer any alternatives. He doesn't have the personnel to win games, period.

He also doesn't have the authority as a fill in to promise them it'll change and they'll get reinforcements. It was obvious after Omar's ridiculous comments about others working as hard as him that the dressing room knows the defense is the problem, so he also has a divided dressing room to deal with.

And lastly, there are top coaches all over the world who are quiet and assured. An absence of overt passion to the press and public does not indicate, in any way, that someone can't motivate.

So a pretty harsh assessment overall.

(Having said all of that, I still wouldn't hire him. Why would we hire a guy with no head coaching experience, regardless of his credentials, for a league at this level? That would be too much of a gamble.)

This club has NO defensive spine, essential to any club or manager succeeding. Our forwards don't press and defend from the front, our central midfielders are slow and do nothing to prevent buildup , and by the time that has influenced play, our terrible central defenders are overwhelmed.

On the second goal last game, our entire defensive corps, midfielders to wingbacks, was no more than two feet from the goal line. They'd back up so far to defend the cross (despite that being the goalie's area to control) that they couldn't even play the offside trap, let alone stop trailing midfielder from an open look inside the box.

That's not coaching, that's cowardice.

We have a shit team, defensively. We got away with it in past seasons because our midfield still had enough legs to cope and help break up attacks and because Mavinga was healthy. Nothing Perez does -- NOTHING -- is going to be able to change that reality. I put literally zero of this on him, and neither do I expect him to get the job.

This is on the players. Overpaid, overhyped, overwhelmed.

noimpactinmtl
08-31-2021, 12:45 PM
(Having said all of that, I still wouldn't hire him. Why would we hire a guy with no head coaching experience, regardless of his credentials, for a league at this level? That would be too much of a gamble.)

Do I need to remind you that Vanney had no head coaching experience when he took over for Nielsen? Robin Fraser, the top assistant, had more experience than Vanney as a head coach when he coached Chivas USA. It could very well be that Perez never had an offer despite his credentials for a reason.

Here's the thing, experience vs taking a chance becomes a chicken or egg paradox. In order to get the experience, you need to get and opportunity, but to get an opportunity, you have to get experience. We don't have the luxury to demand experienced coaches when our roster is such a mess. You might as well take a chance with Perez, who has shown decent tactical acumen and man management skills.

Thrillos
08-31-2021, 12:58 PM
I disagree with most of this (edit: reply didn't work, this reply to jloome one post up). He does have personnel, and this view point that we don't have players is a horrible statement. I don't care if they are older or whatever anyone wants to say, this is 90% of what finished 2nd last season and clinched a playoff spot first of all teams. I am sorry but being dead last the following seasons is not strictly a player issue given these facts.

People would have thought the Revs were a horrible team prior to Bruce Arena joining, now look at them. That is how a good manager can bring a team up in confidence and therefore ability. We haven't had great acquisitions lately (I still think Ali Curtis is one of the worst GMs in the league right now, and in no way standing up for him) but the pure salary we have should not be dead last, period.

This is how a losing mentality is contagious, and what I was alluding to by the difference between a coach and a manager. Perez is not a manager, period. Anyone that still thinks he should be given the benefit of the doubt, is just signing up for more mediocrity/pain for longer.

Vanney is a great coach because players played for him, if he had falling outs, it wasn't overly personal or public. He knew how to adapt a playing style or formation to the players available, and the players thrived under him because they were playing in a system that suited them individually and collectively, pretty much every game.

We have a good squad, not great, but a good one. We don't have a good manger, and the longer we go without one, the longer the losing mentality metastasizes like it did for YEARS prior to Lieweki, Bez, and Vanney. Period.

MightyDM
08-31-2021, 01:03 PM
Laryea - Lawrence - Mavinga - Auro

Lawrence or Morrow are the two better options but at this point, would it be any worse to use Dunn or use a 3 CB line up to at least offer stability.

Also Gonzalez is no better than Singh or Zavaleta. All get caught out, all get wrong sided, and all make poor and rash decisions. The biggest difference is that Gonzalez gets some leaniency from the refs where the other two don't. Realistically he could be carded out every match by how often he has to grab and lean on attacking players. I know there aren't a lot of choices but to suggest he is somehow any better isn't right either.

I'm only suggesting that Perez isnt accountable for our shoddy defence. Or put another way, he shouldnt be judged on that.

MightyDM
08-31-2021, 01:08 PM
I disagree with most of this (edit: reply didn't work, this reply to jloome one post up). He does have personnel, and this view point that we don't have players is a horrible statement. I don't care if they are older or whatever anyone wants to say, this is 90% of what finished 2nd last season and clinched a playoff spot first of all teams. I am sorry but being dead last the following seasons is not strictly a player issue given these facts.

People would have thought the Revs were a horrible team prior to Bruce Arena joining, now look at them. That is how a good manager can bring a team up in confidence and therefore ability. We haven't had great acquisitions lately (I still think Ali Curtis is one of the worst GMs in the league right now, and in no way standing up for him) but the pure salary we have should not be dead last, period.

This is how a losing mentality is contagious, and what I was alluding to by the difference between a coach and a manager. Perez is not a manager, period. Anyone that still thinks he should be given the benefit of the doubt, is just signing up for more mediocrity/pain for longer.

Vanney is a great coach because players played for him, if he had falling outs, it wasn't overly personal or public. He knew how to adapt a playing style or formation to the players available, and the players thrived under him because they were playing in a system that suited them individually and collectively, pretty much every game.

We have a good squad, not great, but a good one. We don't have a good manger, and the longer we go without one, the longer the losing mentality metastasizes like it did for YEARS prior to Lieweki, Bez, and Vanney. Period.

I don't agree. We have a horribly unbalanced squad that is now demoralized because no matter what they do the defence leaks goals. We have no attack and no defence; we are all midfield.

Thats not a coaching issue.

Thrillos
08-31-2021, 01:35 PM
You can disagree, but add some examples/data/facts.... what about our back line was different in terms of players from last year to this year... Last season we were mid table GA (half the GA to the previous last place GA), this season we are dead last.

So I ask you, if it is not a coaching issue and player issue... do we have a different coach or different back line players to last year??

Ultra & Proud
08-31-2021, 02:15 PM
So I ask you, if it is not a coaching issue and player issue... do we have a different coach or different back line players to last year??

I agree that with what we have, unbalanced as it is now and also has been for a few years since Vanney overstocked us with mids, is better than 27th. I realize players have lost a step like Gonzalez (if he ever had steps) and Bradley but that's not the entirety of the defense plus the Armas & Bono factors earlier on. There's a lot more going on that to just say they're demoralized because whatever they try fails. The whole team looks disjointed. In a way it's exactly like 2012-13 as it looks like a team of guys that just met and are playing a beer league match.

I'm not saying we're good or anywhere near what we were last season or even a boarderline playoff team. I am just saying that with what we have we should be better than 27th and that's on the manager as much as the players.

jloome
08-31-2021, 04:06 PM
You can disagree, but add some examples/data/facts.... what about our back line was different in terms of players from last year to this year... Last season we were mid table GA (half the GA to the previous last place GA), this season we are dead last.

So I ask you, if it is not a coaching issue and player issue... do we have a different coach or different back line players to last year??

They’re too old dude. There were signs of it as soon as Omar joined us, even more when we immediately nosedived last season when Poz was injured.

Our only viable central defender is Mavinga, our only viable defensive midfielder is Ralph.

Last season Bradley either covered just enough ground or he was injured and Osorio wasn’t away.

How can you look at this roster and possibly consider it competitive? We didn’t win shit last year, either, and as soon as Poz was out we plummeted, even under Vanney.

these are players in their 30s. When they are done, they are done.

Realistically we need:
three new central defenders (Mavinga is aging, too, and a team at this level needs four viable Center backs)
a holder for when Priso isn’t available
a right winger who contributes offensively
a starting Striker
an understudy to Poz as creator for when he isn’t available
a starting goalkeeper as Q is 35 and Bono is mediocre.

It’s not about fielding a team that doesn’t embarrass us. It’s about WINNING, and when you look at the rest of the league now, that’s what we need. We are that far off.

So no coach, no matter how good, is turning this around. We won ONE title with Greg. Last season, we blew a nine-point lead for the shield and lost to a Nashville team in the playoffs that didn’t deserve to be on the same pitch.

So that was good enough? Amd even THAT we couldn’t achieve with this lot a year older.

Nah, no coach is turning this around without a major roster rebuild. I’m not going to compare Vanney to Perez, because Vanney came into a team with Sebastian Giovinco, a healthy Jozy, Michael Bradley a year off playing number eight for Roma.

Apples and very shitty oranges.

jloome
08-31-2021, 04:13 PM
Do I need to remind you that Vanney had no head coaching experience when he took over for Nielsen? Robin Fraser, the top assistant, had more experience than Vanney as a head coach when he coached Chivas USA. It could very well be that Perez never had an offer despite his credentials for a reason.

Here's the thing, experience vs taking a chance becomes a chicken or egg paradox. In order to get the experience, you need to get and opportunity, but to get an opportunity, you have to get experience. We don't have the luxury to demand experienced coaches when our roster is such a mess. You might as well take a chance with Perez, who has shown decent tactical acumen and man management skills.,

as noted above, apples and oranges when Vanney had a healthy Seba, Altidore and Bradley in their Twenties, drew moor… Vanney couldn’t lead us anywhere last year, and he’s a great manager in this league now. But as soon as Poz went down, we started losing games, blew a nine point,
lead to Philly and then got knocked out in round one by Nashville, an expansion team.

I agree he looks like he has some potential, but you don’t take chances in the mess we’re in, you clean house and start over with proven talent and leadership.

Kamp Berg
08-31-2021, 04:21 PM
,

as noted above, apples and oranges when Vanney had a healthy Seba, Altidore and Bradley in their Twenties, drew moor… Vanney couldn’t lead us anywhere last year, and he’s a great manager in this league now. But as soon as Poz went down, we started losing games, blew a nine point,
lead to Philly and then got knocked out in round one by Nashville, an expansion team.

I agree he looks like he has some potential, but you don’t take chances in the mess we’re in, you clean house and start over with proven talent and leadership.

Whenever I see anyone arguing that the roster is good enough to compete as-is, I can’t help but think they suffer from the same bias as Curtis. Which is, that players can’t be assessed just by looking at where they’ve been in the past or where they are in the moment. A good GM thinks about where the players are headed and the glories of the past. Gonzalez is a perfect example, he was good for one season and should have been signed to one or two years with options, at most. It doesn’t take a whiz to figure that one out either, it was obvious from just watching his Liga MX games. Zavaleta and Bono are the opposite example, given raises based on one good season. It’s like every decision is made either from outdated info or completely reflexively.

jloome
08-31-2021, 04:28 PM
Whenever I see anyone arguing that the roster is good enough to compete as-is, I can’t help but think they suffer from the same bias as Curtis. Which is, that players can’t be assessed by looking at where they’ve been in the past, a good GM thinks about where the players are headed, not just the glories of the past. Gonzalez is a perfect example, he was good for one season and should have been signed to one or two years with options, at most. It doesn’t take a whiz to figure that one out either, it was obvious from just watching his Liga MX games.

Exactly. Our average roster age when we won the title was 24.5. Now it’s 26.5, and even the younger squad replacements haven’t strengthened us.

We haven’t had a good defence statistically since Drew Moor left. We just made up for it with clock control and scoring timely goals.

No goals in this squad; our leading scorer is a utility midfielder.

On top of aging out, we have a lot of egos, even by pro football standards. There’s not a lot of humility leaking out of that dressing room.

spe18
08-31-2021, 06:11 PM
You can disagree, but add some examples/data/facts.... what about our back line was different in terms of players from last year to this year... Last season we were mid table GA (half the GA to the previous last place GA), this season we are dead last.

So I ask you, if it is not a coaching issue and player issue... do we have a different coach or different back line players to last year??

But on this theory you have mentioned, can you explain how it is the Jays went from winning the World Series in '93, to finishing 55-60 the following season (strike shortened), to finishing tied for last in '95? With some minor adjustments, it appears the roster was mainly intact through those seasons.

The one big possibility I can think of is that they are a year older the following season, and hence, are not as effective, especially for the veteran guys.

noimpactinmtl
08-31-2021, 09:08 PM
,

as noted above, apples and oranges when Vanney had a healthy Seba, Altidore and Bradley in their Twenties, drew moor… Vanney couldn’t lead us anywhere last year, and he’s a great manager in this league now. But as soon as Poz went down, we started losing games, blew a nine point,
lead to Philly and then got knocked out in round one by Nashville, an expansion team.

I agree he looks like he has some potential, but you don’t take chances in the mess we’re in, you clean house and start over with proven talent and leadership.


Which does beg the question. Is it the coach or the personnel? Vanney's first season flamed out against Montreal because we were trotting out Creavalle/Jackson as our makeshift RB after Mark Bloom went down for the season.

Javier has a team that is either too old to be effective, or too young to take the next step. No coach in the world can deal with a mess of a back line and a forward that has aged 5 years due to injuries. Since we're going to be rebuilding for awhile, let Javier grow with the team and start revamping the academy to provide a much clearer path.

MightyDM
08-31-2021, 09:35 PM
I don’t know my own opinion of Perez. I just like his dignity and his backbone.

The roster is horribly unbalanced - one CB (Mavinga) and one injury prone elite striker (Jozy). Elite midfield. So we ship goals and don’t score, but pass the ball beautifully at times.

That’s a fact and the arguments above by JLoome and others completely persuasive about the roster.

So what do we do with Perez? Great start but now the team has reverted to the mean. He is brave - he did what many critics on here have been calling for by substituting Jozy and MB - and he seems to command the respect of the players.

We will know after the international break if , when he has the ability to work with the team over an extended period of time, if he is able to impose a tactical system that works for the team. If so, he is a keeper.

jloome
08-31-2021, 10:39 PM
We’re well practiced at passing the ball around the 18 and not shooting. He’s the perfect fit.

I highly recommend comedian Alan Davies' podcast The Tuesday Club, for a funny-but-dead-on commentary on Arsenal, and for the multiple obvious parallels to our current situation...

Thrillos
08-31-2021, 10:44 PM
They’re too old dude. There were signs of it as soon as Omar joined us, even more when we immediately nosedived last season when Poz was injured.

Our only viable central defender is Mavinga, our only viable defensive midfielder is Ralph.

Last season Bradley either covered just enough ground or he was injured and Osorio wasn’t away.

How can you look at this roster and possibly consider it competitive? We didn’t win shit last year, either, and as soon as Poz was out we plummeted, even under Vanney.

these are players in their 30s. When they are done, they are done.

Realistically we need:
three new central defenders (Mavinga is aging, too, and a team at this level needs four viable Center backs)
a holder for when Priso isn’t available
a right winger who contributes offensively
a starting Striker
an understudy to Poz as creator for when he isn’t available
a starting goalkeeper as Q is 35 and Bono is mediocre.

It’s not about fielding a team that doesn’t embarrass us. It’s about WINNING, and when you look at the rest of the league now, that’s what we need. We are that far off.

So no coach, no matter how good, is turning this around. We won ONE title with Greg. Last season, we blew a nine-point lead for the shield and lost to a Nashville team in the playoffs that didn’t deserve to be on the same pitch.

So that was good enough? Amd even THAT we couldn’t achieve with this lot a year older.

Nah, no coach is turning this around without a major roster rebuild. I’m not going to compare Vanney to Perez, because Vanney came into a team with Sebastian Giovinco, a healthy Jozy, Michael Bradley a year off playing number eight for Roma.

Apples and very shitty oranges.

They are too old, dude. I never said they weren’t. I said that the blame for our current position isn’t squarely on the players, our previous manager sucked and our current manager is not up to the standard we need.

Our roster is not trash, we have a better a better roster than half the mls teams, anyone that thinks otherwise is oblivious. Our team is not a dead last team, full stop. But we are, because our coaches/managers have sucked since Vanney left. Full stop.

Sure we blew a 9 point lead for the shield last year, but we still finished second, not dead last. Sure we went out in the first round of the playoffs, but lots of great teams go out early in a cup competition. Thats why many on here will likely argue that the league is more important than the mls cup. Did I mention we finished second last season. Our roster was mostly the same, we for sure went above what our roster was…. Because of a good coach. Our roster is a bit older and a bit different, and now we are dead last. We are well below what our roster should have us… because we have bad coaches now. Full stop.

And you don’t have to compare him to Vanney and his first year because you can more easily compare him to vanney with roughly the same roster. And guess what, we finished second. Lol.

Thrillos
08-31-2021, 10:53 PM
I don’t know my own opinion of Perez. I just like his dignity and his backbone.

The roster is horribly unbalanced - one CB (Mavinga) and one injury prone elite striker (Jozy). Elite midfield. So we ship goals and don’t score, but pass the ball beautifully at times.

That’s a fact and the arguments above by JLoome and others completely persuasive about the roster.

So what do we do with Perez? Great start but now the team has reverted to the mean. He is brave - he did what many critics on here have been calling for by substituting Jozy and MB - and he seems to command the respect of the players.

We will know after the international break if , when he has the ability to work with the team over an extended period of time, if he is able to impose a tactical system that works for the team. If so, he is a keeper.

I do mostly agree with this. He has the rest of the season to show something. But if we are still fighting for dead last then he isn’t our guy. Because this team is not a dead last team. Not a top of the table team, but definitely not dead last. I do still think Perez is a good coach most likely. Again not a manager though.

We have been given a one two punch by that clown Curtis. He hasn’t been forward thinking with the roster, and he gave us a coach that destroyed the winning mentality in 3 months that had a foundation of 5 years. I still very much agree with everyone that our roster has declined in quality.

Thrillos
08-31-2021, 11:06 PM
But on this theory you have mentioned, can you explain how it is the Jays went from winning the World Series in '93, to finishing 55-60 the following season (strike shortened), to finishing tied for last in '95? With some minor adjustments, it appears the roster was mainly intact through those seasons.

The one big possibility I can think of is that they are a year older the following season, and hence, are not as effective, especially for the veteran guys.

I apologize, I don’t follow baseball at all so have no idea the details of that to analyze it with you. If you have a soccer playing team to compare the drop to, i most likely know enough to analyze it.

Another example comes to mind with David Moyes taking over at Man U. While I think he was/is a good coach, he didn’t have that winning mentality of a manager to take over a title chasing team. He got too used to man management of a team fighting for a Europa spot and not going for the title. Of course he was going to fail taking over Man U. You think Ferguson was out there teaching vidic and Ferdinand how to defend?? No, he was out there motivating them and dictating the general playing style.

OgtheDim
09-01-2021, 05:50 AM
Our previous manager sucked?

ooookkkkk

MightyDM
09-01-2021, 06:14 AM
I think they mean Armas

OgtheDim
09-01-2021, 06:16 AM
Oh...yeah

I seem to have conveniently blocked him out of my memory as an actual coach... :hat:

MightyDM
09-01-2021, 06:17 AM
But on this theory you have mentioned, can you explain how it is the Jays went from winning the World Series in '93, to finishing 55-60 the following season (strike shortened), to finishing tied for last in '95? With some minor adjustments, it appears the roster was mainly intact through those seasons.

The one big possibility I can think of is that they are a year older the following season, and hence, are not as effective, especially for the veteran guys.

The Jays gutted their roster, letting go lots of good players like Jimmy Key and not replacing with quality. Ownership went from win at all costs to “compete on a budget”. And they raised the price of beer.

ensco
09-01-2021, 06:41 AM
There are symmetries between the 1992-95 Jays and the 2019-21 Raptors. There was no Kawhi in 1993 but both loaded up with rentals and hired guns, key veterans on expiring contracts that were all gone within a year or two.

MightyDM
09-01-2021, 09:57 PM
There are symmetries between the 1992-95 Jays and the 2019-21 Raptors. There was no Kawhi in 1993 but both loaded up with rentals and hired guns, key veterans on expiring contracts that were all gone within a year or two.

Yes. They also let excellent long term players go. And raised the price of beer because of success. Went from 4 million attendance to 1.3 virtually overnight and took 25 years to recover. All the execs got a bonus though. And plaudits.

Kamp Berg
10-04-2021, 12:13 PM
The last five games have been a revelation for this team, and it seems like Perez may be a true pragmatist. When I first read his background it gave me great hope that he’d be a coach who would truly follow the data and not make all his decisions based on biases. The fact that he’s been able to find a winning setup in the midst of so many injuries, and has motivated the team to two comeback victories is very promising. I don’t think it’s time to renew him for next year yet, but if he continues like this until the end of the year, he definitely deserves a chance at a full season.

woolly
10-04-2021, 12:36 PM
I disagree... I think the turnaround that he has performed is enough to give him a full year (Still sack Ali, tho). Look at it this way- When Vanney left, we lost arguably the best coach in MLS at the time, so the chances of replacing him with someone of like or greater talent was low because the bar was set so high (and our FO is crap). If we get rid of Perez, is it more or less likely that we will find someone who manages to get the team playing at their best potential?

I think we have seen that JP can do that, and with some replacements for Omar, Morrow and possibly Mavinga and Poz I think we can safely say that he can coach the team to a contention spot.


The last five games have been a revelation for this team, and it seems like Perez may be a true pragmatist. When I first read his background it gave me great hope that he’d be a coach who would truly follow the data and not make all his decisions based on biases. The fact that he’s been able to find a winning setup in the midst of so many injuries, and has motivated the team to two comeback victories is very promising. I don’t think it’s time to renew him for next year yet, but if he continues like this until the end of the year, he definitely deserves a chance at a full season.

PizzaEatingYeti
10-05-2021, 05:41 AM
The last five games have been a revelation for this team, and it seems like Perez may be a true pragmatist. When I first read his background it gave me great hope that he’d be a coach who would truly follow the data and not make all his decisions based on biases. The fact that he’s been able to find a winning setup in the midst of so many injuries, and has motivated the team to two comeback victories is very promising. I don’t think it’s time to renew him for next year yet, but if he continues like this until the end of the year, he definitely deserves a chance at a full season.

Agree on everything you said, but the last two home wins must be taken with a big grain of salt, because we played two very bad teams, with very bad away stats (I would say same kind of bad teams like TFC per whole season so far).
Yes, Perez is promising so far, but let's see how we do at home with 2 middle-pack teams (at least that good), and I would be sold only after that on him, if TFC's results would be still OK.

OgtheDim
10-05-2021, 06:15 AM
Coaching/playing tests left would be every game but Miami

Atlanta, Philly, DCU & Montreal are all well coached playoff hunting teams in need of points


Nashville & Colorado played down to us - lets see what happens when teams fighting for their playoff lives go up against us

portu
10-05-2021, 11:36 AM
Past experiences tell us Manning and Curtis are debilitatingly slow and resistant to change. If current form continues Perez likely stays, this roster will be tweaked rather than get the overhaul it needs and we will continue to lose. Maybe we’ll be mid table, but overall we’ll still lose. This club just wreaks of corporate rot right now, and the fact that Perez might actually keep this job is proof enough.

ag futbol
10-05-2021, 01:32 PM
Leaving aside anything merit based, I have two ideas of how Curtis (if he survives) and Manning might think of this:

1) this is my last chance to get it right, better to go out on a name brand coach than trust the current guy

2) avoid a high priced signing because that just further serves to point out the mistake of hiring Armas (who is likely still being paid severance). Perez is a known quantity in terms of interactions. Ali’s already been eaten by one subordinate already, doubt he takes that chance again, although given the limited options here he might have no choice but to bring in someone and hope they aren’t overly aggressive.

MightyDM
10-05-2021, 02:40 PM
Agree on everything you said, but the last two home wins must be taken with a big grain of salt, because we played two very bad teams, with very bad away stats (I would say same kind of bad teams like TFC per whole season so far).
Yes, Perez is promising so far, but let's see how we do at home with 2 middle-pack teams (at least that good), and I would be sold only after that on him, if TFC's results would be still OK.

Yes, fair. We looked good but those two teams are terrible.

MightyDM
10-05-2021, 02:42 PM
Past experiences tell us Manning and Curtis are debilitatingly slow and resistant to change. If current form continues Perez likely stays, this roster will be tweaked rather than get the overhaul it needs and we will continue to lose. Maybe we’ll be mid table, but overall we’ll still lose. This club just wreaks of corporate rot right now, and the fact that Perez might actually keep this job is proof enough.

Agree with all of this except last point. Perez might (might) be the accidental coach we need. Every thing else is corporate rot - inheriting the best team ever assembled in this league and messing it up completely.

ag futbol
10-05-2021, 03:27 PM
Agree with all of this except last point. Perez might (might) be the accidental coach we need. Every thing else is corporate rot - inheriting the best team ever assembled in this league and messing it up completely.
Doesn’t it just say all sorts of wrong things about the league the way it selects its coaches? Way too much nepotism.

And I think about Frank Klopas coaching the Fire on the weekend. Even as an interim, is there really nobody better? He’s garbage.

Ultra & Proud
10-05-2021, 03:41 PM
Yes, fair. We looked good but those two teams are terrible.
We would have lost them both a few months ago.

MightyDM
10-05-2021, 04:39 PM
Doesn’t it just say all sorts of wrong things about the league the way it selects its coaches? Way too much nepotism.

And I think about Frank Klopas coaching the Fire on the weekend. Even as an interim, is there really nobody better? He’s garbage.

Yes. The league is explicitly set up to train American coaches. Huge bias to hire retreads for that reason. I actually feel bad for Chris Armas - how is he ever going to work again? Exposed badly by this job. By all accounts a decent person just clearly out of his depth.

MightyDM
10-05-2021, 04:40 PM
We would have lost them both a few months ago.

Yes. True.

ag futbol
10-05-2021, 05:09 PM
Yes. The league is explicitly set up to train American coaches. Huge bias to hire retreads for that reason. I actually feel bad for Chris Armas - how is he ever going to work again? Exposed badly by this job. By all accounts a decent person just clearly out of his depth.
I hold not malice against the guy personally but clearly being a head coach I was not his ticket. I’m sure there is something else around the game he can be provided an opportunity to do.

I heck if Klopas is still working and Fernando Clavijo somehow found work after being an epic failure for years in Colorado, there’s hope for old Armas.

MightyDM
10-05-2021, 06:37 PM
I hold not malice against the guy personally but clearly being a head coach I was not his ticket. I’m sure there is something else around the game he can be provided an opportunity to do.

I heck if Klopas is still working and Fernando Clavijo somehow found work after being an epic failure for years in Colorado, there’s hope for old Armas.

True and for his sake I hope so. Suspect it will be college coaching.

leedsandTFC
10-05-2021, 09:16 PM
Perez should be given next year imo.

has shown more than enough, some of the attacking play in the last month has been incredible, and with so many players out too.

ensco
10-05-2021, 10:14 PM
Perez should be given next year imo.

has shown more than enough, some of the attacking play in the last month has been incredible, and with so many players out too.

No. This is something important.

The board make the call on Manning/Curtis, and then they or their successors make the call on the manager.

Ultra & Proud
10-06-2021, 06:27 AM
No. This is something important.

The board make the call on Manning/Curtis, and then they or their successors make the call on the manager.

This is the way these things should always be handled.

ag futbol
10-06-2021, 08:29 AM
No. This is something important.

The board make the call on Manning/Curtis, and then they or their successors make the call on the manager.
In an ideal world yes but judging by public appearances, it seems at least Manning’s job is safe.

Once again, our overlords asleep at the wheel.

jloome
10-06-2021, 01:12 PM
In an ideal world yes but judging by public appearances, it seems at least Manning’s job is safe.

Once again, our overlords asleep at the wheel.

If he can win consistently with this broken roster -- as in, most of the rest of our games, not just this short stretch against other bottom feeders -- then I think we'd be mad not consider him. He's taken a broken dressing room and turned it around, moulded Shaff into a tier better player than he was, has Omar playing less like a chicken with his head cut off than any time since right after we signed him.

But so far, the only difficult team we've beaten is Nashville. If we keep beating or tying top teams and collect most of the rest of the points on hand, that says an awful lot about his abilities, because from the way players were talking and performing, this was a broken, demoralized team. And it doesn't look like one now.

If he can do that with major pieces missing and no future guarantees, he surely can do more with a competitive roster.

Ultra & Proud
10-06-2021, 02:49 PM
But so far, the only difficult team we've beaten is Nashville. If we keep beating or tying top teams and collect most of the rest of the points on hand, that says an awful lot about his abilities, because from the way players were talking and performing, this was a broken, demoralized team. And it doesn't look like one now.

I was 100% against Perez being re-hired at first and still think the final decision should be whoever the new GM perfers but Perez has shown something. So far he is clearly better than Armas but that's not saying much and managed a few things Vanney hadn't (keeping Omar in position, changing the game through subs). Down the stretch we're playing a lot of on the bubble and jockeying for position teams so if we can pull a decent run out with our current squad then that should at least put him in the mix for the full time gig.

Richard
10-06-2021, 04:07 PM
A lot of the best managers look at our roster situation and see a complete overhaul is needed, bad contracts and potentially no DP option for next year is not an attraction. They want long term garuntees.

Does anyone of note want to actually work with Manning? Lets not even talk about Ali, no one of any experience wants to work with him, he needs to go full stop.

We are not a prime destination at the moment. Perez gets the job by default.

OgtheDim
10-17-2021, 08:17 AM
I would say the grade on the manager for last night had to be an F.

Started players who played CONCACAF & they suffered.

Subbed in JMR for Achara in order to maintain the shape but then decided at minute 50 (when Jozy & Poz got up) to change the shape anyways & thus causing JMR to have to leave. Should have changed the shape after the Achara injury with Mullins in the middle (who would have done better against their defence) & then if need be, take him out.

If this team is trying to get set up for the Voyageurs, last night did not help.
***********

Miami sets up really well for our team & is in a big funk right now so that game should go well. But Montreal next Saturday, beyond being a derby against the rivals, is a much tougher match.

jloome
10-17-2021, 03:00 PM
I would say the grade on the manager for last night had to be an F.

Started players who played CONCACAF & they suffered.

Subbed in JMR for Achara in order to maintain the shape but then decided at minute 50 (when Jozy & Poz got up) to change the shape anyways & thus causing JMR to have to leave. Should have changed the shape after the Achara injury with Mullins in the middle (who would have done better against their defence) & then if need be, take him out.

If this team is trying to get set up for the Voyageurs, last night did not help.
***********

Miami sets up really well for our team & is in a big funk right now so that game should go well. But Montreal next Saturday, beyond being a derby against the rivals, is a much tougher match.

He seemed found out last night. He didn't have an answer to their setup and didn't trust the players he had on the bench, despite so many first teamers just off international duty.

Shaff was so predictable in the first half but there was no advice (or if there wasn't it didn't click) at half for him to cut inside earlier, to unbalance Robinson, or to try a mid-field switch with Soteldo. We just ran directly at the strongest side of their defence all night. It made zero sense.

The JMR thing was so egregious, I have to think he was told he had to play him or something idiotic like that.

Maybe he should be trained as a wingback for a while so that he knows when to cut inside, when to get back. If he has two-way responsibilities he's less likely to lose his sense of position while trying to move into offensive support positions.

May be that his nerves are keeping him from concentrating too, with all the hype.

MightyDM
10-17-2021, 11:14 PM
Not his best might, Perez. Agreed. “Found out” isn’t quite right though. More like “fucked up”.

OgtheDim
10-18-2021, 06:34 AM
Not that it really helps, but looks like Bayern did the same thing - player on a high after WC qualifiers says he's good to go when he really wasn't.

Ultra & Proud
10-18-2021, 12:50 PM
My biggest issue from the last match was that he seemed to have a substitution plan pre-arranged for Poz & Jozy regardless of circumstance so the JMR sub in was a stop gap to keep the Jozy sub "on time". No reading of the game or switching formations to suit circumstances. It was like the goal of the match was to get Poz & Jozy a run out at all costs.

MikeForbes
10-18-2021, 01:00 PM
Jozy definitely is no longer a player who should be a priority. Obviously he should be playing all the home games so the fans can give him a proper goodbye but he should not be a guy that needs to get on the field at any cost.

ag futbol
10-18-2021, 02:01 PM
Not that it really helps, but looks like Bayern did the same thing - player on a high after WC qualifiers says he's good to go when he really wasn't.
The sports science people really need to be in the adults in the room here, both at the club level and when sorting out reasonable schedules for International Dates.

Still too much of “he says he’s good” and old-school, trust-your-gut logic being applied when making these decisions.

jloome
10-18-2021, 05:28 PM
My biggest issue from the last match was that he seemed to have a substitution plan pre-arranged for Poz & Jozy regardless of circumstance so the JMR sub in was a stop gap to keep the Jozy sub "on time". No reading of the game or switching formations to suit circumstances. It was like the goal of the match was to get Poz & Jozy a run out at all costs.

Perez told media today JMR is starting the next game and was pulled for “tactical” reasons.

Why do I suspect there is much here we aren’t hearing?

Ultra & Proud
10-18-2021, 07:00 PM
Perez told media today JMR is starting the next game and was pulled for “tactical” reasons.

Why do I suspect there is much here we aren’t hearing?

Unless there's an order, so improbable that it's probably from Curtis, to showcase Jozy for a winter move. Maybe Poz too but that's more reasonable.

spe18
10-18-2021, 07:46 PM
Unless there's an order, so improbable that it's probably from Curtis, to showcase Jozy for a winter move. Maybe Poz too but that's more reasonable.

Or more likely from Manning at this point.

I also feel alot of the critcism towards Perez is unwarrented, especially as he essentially had a total of around a 0% say in how the roster is built.

613reppingTFC
10-19-2021, 09:15 AM
Not that it really helps, but looks like Bayern did the same thing - player on a high after WC qualifiers says he's good to go when he really wasn't.

Difference here is that they were up 5-0 when they made the Davies sub in the 40th minute..had it been a closer match I'm sure he would have continued playing a bit longer.
However still doesn't mean he should have been in the lineup at all with all the minutes he played for Canada.

I was quite surprised that Javier started Ritchie and Oso, Shaff I could see since he didn't play many minutes for Canada. I thought Oso should have been a 2nd half sub.
I also don't know why he doesn't use all 5 of his subs that he has available? is it momentum, does he not trust the bench? Oso could have gone off 2nd half for Okello or DeLeon maybe, and Morrow in for Ritchie (although he was still playing decent late in the game and didn't seem as tired).

ag futbol
10-19-2021, 10:26 AM
Unless there's an order, so improbable that it's probably from Curtis, to showcase Jozy for a winter move. Maybe Poz too but that's more reasonable.
Hopeless dreamers these guys are if they think anyone is taking that Altidore contract.

portu
10-19-2021, 01:48 PM
Perez told media today JMR is starting the next game and was pulled for “tactical” reasons.

Why do I suspect there is much here we aren’t hearing?
This wreaks of Perez being told he has to start JMR. I can’t even remember this last time a coach announced a player was starting for us before the XI was announced. Jesus.

Ultra & Proud
10-19-2021, 03:12 PM
This wreaks of Perez being told he has to start JMR. I can’t even remember this last time a coach announced a player was starting for us before the XI was announced. Jesus.
Possibly another piece for window shopping. Get in on that FC Dallas transfer sales market.

Richard
10-19-2021, 03:37 PM
Pulling out a young player after 40 minutes(who did not play bad) for tactical reasons is idiotic.

Give young players the minutes for development instead of chasing pointless wins with vets. You are the caretaker, so act like one.

The season was over three months ago.

Smokecell
10-20-2021, 07:27 AM
Give young players the minutes for development instead of chasing pointless wins with vets. You are the caretaker, so act like one.

The season was over three months ago.

Thing is he IS acting like a caretaker. This is an audition for him so it’s all about win now in order to win this job or be seen for another. Can’t exactly blame him, although as a fan/for the team it’s not necessarily in our best interest.

Ultra & Proud
10-20-2021, 08:54 AM
Pulling out a young player after 40 minutes(who did not play bad) for tactical reasons is idiotic.

Give young players the minutes for development instead of chasing pointless wins with vets. You are the caretaker, so act like one.

The season was over three months ago.
I don't think that decision was guided by the desire to win. It was to play our DPs at all costs. I think they were coming in at that time no matter what was going on and someone had to eat the minutes inbetween the Achara injury and the pre-planned double DP introduction and it just happened that it fell to JMR. On the plus side for JMR that move was so transparent that it's forced Perez to start him this match so not all bad.

spe18
10-20-2021, 06:58 PM
I don't think that decision was guided by the desire to win. It was to play our DPs at all costs. I think they were coming in at that time no matter what was going on and someone had to eat the minutes inbetween the Achara injury and the pre-planned double DP introduction and it just happened that it fell to JMR. On the plus side for JMR that move was so transparent that it's forced Perez to start him this match so not all bad.

:iagree:

Ultra & Proud
10-21-2021, 06:19 AM
Time to go Perez.

Time to go.