Chris Armas Evaluation Thread

[OgtheDim]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPw-3e_pzqU

***************

OK, I said I wasn't going to do this

& then watched that.



I am not doing a "We needs him to be out" yet.

But we got enough games to start doing some preliminary evaluations.


IMHO, things related to an Armas evaluation at this point include (but are not limited to)

1. Inertia & the inability to adjust - I know we had Vanney who is the best manager in MLS ever for being able to adjust mid game. But, geez Louise, it is possible to play something other then a 4-2-3-1 or a 4-4-2. This also goes for how Armas' sees players on the pitch. It was obvious today after 45 minutes that Delgado wide right with DeLeon as an AM wasn't working - still, TFC persisted & this all went nowhere. There were no adjustments in the second half beyond "throw a player on and hope".

2. The press - it worked against Leon because they let it go & didn't adjust. It kinda worked for 30 minutes against NYRB because they really are not all that good but then we got tired quickly & that game just went south. But we don't seem suited for taking advantage of it.

3. Injuries have been bad for us. This is a system that relies upon 1 or 2 players to be creative quickly & we only have 3 central mids that can do that, 1 who is brand new & 2 who have been injured.

4. Bono can not marshall the line. People are going to say "Its not been his fault" but he can't communicate worth beans & its showing. I think the choice of Vanney to NOT take Conway with him says a lot but then I also think Armas has an ideal for what a keeper should be.

5. To that ideal player thing - Armas has views on what a player can do & has shown he is willing to let Seteldo & Morrow & Osorio adjust within the game. He is adamant about certain other things though.

5. We are playing & practicing away from home & have done so without fans now for 14 months. That lack of input from fans DOES things because the manager & staff & players are in their own bubble with only the media to suggest things.

6. Playing & practicing in heat sucks & when coupled with the CCL has left us tired & drained.





*********************

Other thoughts?

[FootBallAZ]

Leiweke is going to build a great ball team in Seattle.

Deeply sadened by the fact that no proper search or opportunity was given for both management positions.

Armas seems like he is in over is head, not sure if he can command the team or consistently have their ear, I feel like he may get tuned out shortly.

Based on his words true form will take months to achieve.


I was willing to be patient after the Leon win but I think it's been a downward trajectory since Seba and VV left

[ag futbol]

Bare minimum baseline for a competent coach:

- Organize the team so it has a chance to defend properly.
- Defend set pieces well.
- use your set pieces to give your team a chance to score.

I have to say this last game against RBNY showed no signs of the above. And that’s particularly concerning when this is the stuff you always should be focused on in the early days ESPECIALLY with a team that’s has injuries / is struggling for talent. Montreal, which has maybe half the talent we do, is playing more effective football.

In the end, it’s one game. But if Armas can’t take care of stuff like this soon, I wouldn’t hesitate to send him packing.

[MikeForbes]

I'll give my thoughts tomorrow when I am a little less cranky.

[leedsandTFC]

it's very apparent that armas' one style fits our team so badly.

we have a glut of talented, ball playing midfielders, forwards and fullbacks.

why we letting other teams dominate possession as a strategy is beyond me.

also when we get the ball our attackers are so isolated and we have absolutely no width.

i've not seen a tfc team create so little in a very, very long time.

[Red CB Toronto]

I would say there really is no pressure felt from the outside world right now. Media coverage minus the return of John to the beat is pretty low key these days especially when you do not have to deal with it onsite on a daily basis. It really a few zoom calls here and there.

On the subject of Jon Conway, him staying here likely made sense for him from a family standpoint with a wife whose job is here. Just a thought.





https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPw-3e_pzqU

***************

OK, I said I wasn't going to do this

& then watched that.



I am not doing a "We needs him to be out" yet.

But we got enough games to start doing some preliminary evaluations.


IMHO, things related to an Armas evaluation at this point include (but are not limited to)

1. Inertia & the inability to adjust - I know we had Vanney who is the best manager in MLS ever for being able to adjust mid game. But, geez Louise, it is possible to play something other then a 4-2-3-1 or a 4-4-2. This also goes for how Armas' sees players on the pitch. It was obvious today after 45 minutes that Delgado wide right with DeLeon as an AM wasn't working - still, TFC persisted & this all went nowhere. There were no adjustments in the second half beyond "throw a player on and hope".

2. The press - it worked against Leon because they let it go & didn't adjust. It kinda worked for 30 minutes against NYRB because they really are not all that good but then we got tired quickly & that game just went south. But we don't seem suited for taking advantage of it.

3. Injuries have been bad for us. This is a system that relies upon 1 or 2 players to be creative quickly & we only have 3 central mids that can do that, 1 who is brand new & 2 who have been injured.

4. Bono can not marshall the line. People are going to say "Its not been his fault" but he can't communicate worth beans & its showing. I think the choice of Vanney to NOT take Conway with him says a lot but then I also think Armas has an ideal for what a keeper should be.

5. To that ideal player thing - Armas has views on what a player can do & has shown he is willing to let Seteldo & Morrow & Osorio adjust within the game. He is adamant about certain other things though.

5. We are playing & practicing away from home & have done so without fans now for 14 months. That lack of input from fans DOES things because the manager & staff & players are in their own bubble with only the media to suggest things.

6. Playing & practicing in heat sucks & when coupled with the CCL has left us tired & drained.





*********************

Other thoughts?

[MikeForbes]

Kind of funny and telling that the happiest people were Red Bulls fans and DC United fans when we hired Armas. The team who fired him and the team who he was previously linked to prior to joining TFC.

[OgtheDim]

Kind of funny and telling that the happiest people were Red Bulls fans and DC United fans when we hired Armas. The team who fired him and the team who he was previously linked to prior to joining TFC.


Which is a reminder that we had other options that turned us down & we then plugged for Armas, not quite stealing him from DCU but they were in serious discussions before Curtis came a calling. Not sure Losada makes them better off then Armas, to be honest, but Losada is at least consistent.

I don't buy the "we always wanted Chris" thing nor the "they never made an offer to anybody else" guff.

[Auzzy]

It didn't look like this at first this season. But by now I'm concerned about the mentality / mood of the team (in addition to the tactical and other things that were described well above). It doesn't look like Armas, or Bradley, or anyone has control of this team.

Today was a shit show as all have mentioned. I know Cruz Azul is a great team, and I never expected to get past them. But it was the way TFC lost to them; the way TFC didn't take advantage of numerous opportunities gifted by Cruz Azul; the way TFC gave Cruz cheap goals and let win easily w/o even breaking a sweat. That's what really bothers me. In addition to poor play and all the rest during the MLS games so far this season.

[Gringo Starr]

I will seriously question his judgement if he decides that Bono is his guy without giving Q a game or 2

[MikeForbes]

Which is a reminder that we had other options that turned us down & we then plugged for Armas, not quite stealing him from DCU but they were in serious discussions before Curtis came a calling. Not sure Losada makes them better off then Armas, to be honest, but Losada is at least consistent.

I don't buy the "we always wanted Chris" thing nor the "they never made an offer to anybody else" guff.

Agreed. They probably offered the job to Vieira and were turned down before turning to Armas. There was a lot of talk about around him early on.

[ensco]

I said it in the game thread. I think there is a problem in the room. Not necessarily Armas' fault, but Armas doesn’t have the stature to sort it out.

When important guys don’t want to be on a team, it's a problem.

Other than that, it's really too soon. We weren’t as good as our record last year, obviously (I didn’t watch a lot but I did watch that playoff game and we were very ordinary there). We are not as bad as we looked today. But we need the guys who don’t want to be here to be out.

[rydermike]

https://i.imgur.com/WGicFff.pnghttps://preview.redd.it/p4io2bhh6yx61.png?width=640&crop=smart&auto=webp&b4e52ffa

[James17930]

Agreed. They probably offered the job to Vieira and were turned down before turning to Armas. There was a lot of talk about around him early on.

It's not probably. We know they did, and yes, he turned it down because he wanted more roster control than TFC were willing to give, which, to be fair to club, is probably correct. But now we have Armas.

Another point – not only do we seem to have Plan A and nothing else, he goes out in the media and basically tells everybody exactly what we're going to do. Scouting us must be a cakewalk.

[portu]

The reason Armas is likely here is because he didn’t believe in tearing the existing team down and rebuilding in his own image. But with every passing game the opinions that led Viera and maybe others to not join the club look more and more valid.

The next stretch is critical. Our current record is 1 win, 2 draws, 4 losses. If we lose the next 4 (Poz or no Poz), I’d imagine that we’ll see the resolve of the front office tested re: Armas’ job security. If Poz returns and the team is still playing like ass, then I’d be perplexed with any outcome not involving Armas fired.

[ensco]

This statement that “we offered the job to Vieira”, stayed as fact, I don’t even know where to begin. It is completely nuts, an internet fabrication.

For starters , he wouldn’t have been interested under any circumstances. We also couldn’t afford him.

The people who say this literally have know idea how/why he wound up at NYCFC, what his ambition is, etc. All of which he has publicly stated.

Do the people who sell this have any idea what his net worth is?

[Smokecell]

https://www.mlssoccer.com/news/outgoing-tigres-coach-tuca-ferretti-open-to-mls-move

Just going to leave this here...

[Yohan]

https://www.mlssoccer.com/news/outgoing-tigres-coach-tuca-ferretti-open-to-mls-move

Just going to leave this here...
Tuca is such an ass though

[reggie]

he is not going anywhere.his bosses got contract ext,why i dont know,they lost like7 of there last 10 mls games.with a aging oft injured roster

[SirBobSaget]

he is not going anywhere.his bosses got contract ext,why i dont know,they lost like7 of there last 10 mls games.with a aging oft injured roster

With no home games for 14 months they have had no accountability, so they patted each others backs and extended their contracts. The sentiment from the game thread wasn't the anger/venting from a one sided loss as you would normally see. It was more a wtf is this? TFC looked like they didn't belong on the same pitch, and NYRB are at best a below average MLS team! Someone said it earlier, this looked like a Paul Mariner game.

Vanney won today, Robin Fraser won today, Armas got completely exposed.

[Oldtimer]

Not ready to throw him under the bus yet, this is a team transitioning between styles, but here's some things so far:

Hopeful signs: none. At this point under Vanney's reign the team wasn't doing so well either, but Vanney at least showed a desire to learn. There is no corresponding character trait evident with Armas

Problems:

Inflexibility: Armas is wedded to a couple of formations, shows no desire to react to the situation.

Structure: the team fails to consistently hold their shape, some players are in the wrong positions for the shape, the strengths and weaknesses of the players are not taken into account in what formation to use.

Strategy: There's a lack of practiced game plays that they can execute in the games. What are they doing in practice? Preki style running laps? Also there's no discernable game plan apart from a one-dimensional keep on pressing and hope we score.

Injuries: Injuries are an excuse for not doing well. However nobody seems to be asking why TFC have so many injuries under Armas? Is it just bad luck? Or is there something wrong with his training regimen (see strategy above)?

Player attitude: in 2016-2017 we had players wanting to join TFC because they had belief in the project. Now it looks like some players are checking out. There seems to be a return to the "sad sack TFC" feeling. There doesn't seem to be harmony between the players. What's wrong in the locker room? Is Armas loosing the room?

[MightyDM]

My concern about Armas, from the beginning, has been that his purported style is a very poor match for our roster.

Our core strength is a highly competent midfiled well suited to a possession game but less so to a press - Marky, Oso, MB and Poz. Then our most critical players are Jozy (big question marks at the moment), Omar and Mavinga. Several of those players can press, but it isnt the first thing you would think for them to contribute to a team. And how do they line up, and where is the pace? in a 4-2-3-1 its Lawrence - Mavinga - Omar - Richie / Auro then Bradley Marky then Soteldo Poz Oso Jozy / Ayo. I like that line up, alot, but it also doesnt scream press.

Thats the first issue - wrong tactics for the group.

Second is that on the field the players seem to have no idea what they are doing. Watch the runs of players in a pressing team like Leeds when possession is turned over and they are extremely purposeful and direct - they have been trained. In all of our games, except Leon, players are often slow on the ball because they don't seem to know where and to whom to move the ball - which you must if you are playing for a quick transition; it has to be instinctive.

Third, set pieces.

Yes, it's early, but these three things worry me deeply because they are fundamental. And because we were so far from winning any of these games, really.

I'm not as worried about "losing the room," as even though it looks like something is off, there are other signs = like the Jozy like figure throwing the ball onto the field to delay things in Club Leon that suggest camraderie, a desire to win, and a sense of humour

[ag futbol]

My concern about Armas, from the beginning, has been that his purported style is a very poor match for our roster.

Agreed. And to take this one step further, it doesn’t make any sense to majorly overhaul the roster for Armas. That’s a complete waste of resources.

We have enough players right now to be competitive. Maybe without a few final tweaks we won’t be MLS cup contenders, but we shouldn’t be anything near what we saw on the weekend.

I want to see some sign in the next few games of Armas tweaking the tactics for the players he ACTUALLY HAS and not zealously clinging to a preferred system.

Overall, I have a hard time believing the board of MLSE will be pleased investing $10 million dollars plus on Pozuelo and now Solteldo, only to be told the coach, who we pay peanuts in comparison and has no track record of being anything particularly special, really doesn’t have the players he needs.

[ensco]

Let's see what it looks like with Poz in there, and once we get the lineup settled.

No team in MLS can survive losing the league MVP.

I think maybe it's be worth waiting a few games before opining on Armas' tactics/flexibility etc. It really will take 5-6 more games at least to know.

[ag futbol]

Let's see what it looks like with Poz in there, and once we get the lineup settled.

No team in MLS can survive losing the league MVP.

I think maybe it's be worth waiting a few games before opining on Armas' tactics/flexibility etc. It really will take 5-6 more games at least to know.
No MLS team should look like what we saw on the weekend, stars or not.

Of course we would look better with the league MVP on the field but if you can’t do the basics without the league MVP, sort of suggests a few flaws....

[jloome]

Let's see what it looks like with Poz in there, and once we get the lineup settled.

No team in MLS can survive losing the league MVP.

I think maybe it's be worth waiting a few games before opining on Armas' tactics/flexibility etc. It really will take 5-6 more games at least to know.

It's not just his lack of flexibility, which was fully evident when we we were still half-field pressing at halftime.

It's also his roster and position choices. Osorio and Delgado wide? Jayden Nelson starting over Shaffelburg and Okello despite CLEARLY not being ready for MLS. I mean, he doesn't look remotely ready. He looked lost.

Bono hasn't looked starting material, really. He has a couple of decent reaction saves but has been beaten short side twice due to bad positioning; on the upside, he seems to be talking to his defence as of this last game, albeit a little too little and late.

It's difficult to watch this team now. They're used to having supporting movement drilled ito them; even when we were ineffective, we still maintained possession and looked in with a shout. It's not for nothing that Vanney's Galaxy, despite having given up as many goals as they've scored -- two per game -- have three wins in four games. They hold onto the ball and exhibit a modicum of patience and organization.

Back in the bad old days, I was friends with a TFC staffer from a prior role he'd had before the organization. I was lamenting the then-manager's lack of drilling prescribed movement, which was obvious from how often they were out of supporting positions. He told me there are some coaches who nitpick responsibilities off the ball and some who believe players are capable of handing that on their own.

We had one of the latter, the latest in a string TFC began their life as a club with, coaches who thought that by the time a player was at TFC level, things like movement off the ball and formation were secondary concerns.

But this isn't the Calcio or the flippin' Premiership. And the players who move with machine-like precision into the right spaces in those leagues do so because of how well drilled they were at lower levels.

By contrast, MLS players have traditionally come from the NA college and local club system, where coaching quality and standards lagged behind for decades, particularly tactically. It hasn't been until the implementation of more rigorous standards in the last five or six years, with better players coming in who are more fiercely competitive and humble about how hard it is to get good, that we've seen that change.

What we saw yesterday was "let them play" football, which is shit. If, like at Barnsley, you have two or three highly skilled players, you can press all the time and steal a bunch of wins against the run of quality. But you won't win a table.

Bayern and Liverpool and Leeds and Leipzig can all press because they have good enough players to do so; to cover each other's positions, to move constantly, to read the game connstantly.

WE DON'T. We never have. The SOLE success from a manager in the history of this club has been during Vanney's tenure, and he practised a disciplined, possession-based system.

I'm not so contemptuous of the press to say we shouldn't strategically employ it. But it's one part of what has to be wider tactical acumen. And we've somehow managed to go from among the most competent in the league at possession and build to running around like chickens with their heads cut off, in a matter of seven games.

One game off the Supporter's Shield. That's where we were.

I'll wait five or six games because I have no choice; these guys don't exactly reek of the humility it takes to fix a problem quickly, so we're all going to have to wait it out a while.

But there's little reason based on past evidence to expect a change.

[PizzaEatingYeti]

...it doesn’t make any sense to majorly overhaul the roster for Armas. That’s a complete waste of resources.


This, big time!

The only way the roster makes sense to be overhauled was if they would have been hiring a really big name coach. I mean clearly bigger than Vanney!
And let's be honest, Armas is clearly smaller name than Vanney even in the MLS, and he's a nobody outside US/Canada.

Now it's not just logical that if a not so big name coach is hired in place of a former coach, who was a lot more accomplished, and there is a good enough group of players already in place, this new guy should mould his tactics at the start to the strengths of this existing group?

Then he should slowly add some of his preferred tactics/vision in small doses, balanced, over a longer period of time, this way easing a smooth transition to a bit changed style of play. But in no way to a totally different style of play, in case if the former style of play was successful for the team!

What Armas is trying to do now I feel is like fitting square pegs in round holes, then if he cannot put them in with his bare hands, he takes a hammer, and tries to hammer 'em until those pegs start cracking.

[reggie]

i can live with the young kids making mistakes,but the vets like delgado the give away machine,bradley works hard but his touch in the final 3rd is gone,deleon is a 20 min player at best,so im not going blame the kids that are making 100k,when you got 5mil players sitting out because he had a bad taco,and 800k players like oso always injured.

[ensco]

I don’t disagree that we have been horrible every which way to Sunday in all three league games.

I have been going through this with the Raps. They were one of the top five teams in the NBA in March 2020, now they are bottom seven. Total freefall, almost the same players.

I think the pandemic is making it impossible for Canadian teams in basketball and soccer, this is why I was so amazed that we beat Leon (and we looked great in those games, and Armas earned points for that, like it or not). I see that Vancouver and Montreal have each won a game, yeah, doesn’t change my view. None will be playoff teams in 2021 unless we get home by halfway mark.

Armas also committed to CCL, which I agree with, and which we all knew would cost us in the league.

I don't know how to separate the pandemic and being rootless from questions around (i) natural lag time for any new coach to make an impact, (ii) injuries which hurt a new coaches ability to do anything, (iii) Not having Pozo in particular causing us to look horrible in final third

I am pretty sure we are going to be 2-8 or similar in early June. We are all agreed on that. I am less sure about what it means.

[ag futbol]

This, big time!

The only way the roster makes sense to be overhauled was if they would have been hiring a really big name coach. I mean clearly bigger than Vanney!
And let's be honest, Armas is clearly smaller name than Vanney even in the MLS, and he's a nobody outside US/Canada.

Now it's not just logical that if a not so big name coach is hired in place of a former coach, who was a lot more accomplished, and there is a good enough group of players already in place, this new guy should mould his tactics at the start to the strengths of this existing group?

Then he should slowly add some of his preferred tactics/vision in small doses, balanced, over a longer period of time, this way easing a smooth transition to a bit changed style of play. But in no way to a totally different style of play, in case of the former style of play was successful for the team!

What Armas is trying to do now I feel is like fitting square pegs in round holes, then if he cannot put them in with his bare hands, he takes a hammer, and tries to hammer 'em until those pegs start cracking.
Exactly!

Not that Vanney was perfect but for the last two years, it was pretty much acknowledged he didn’t play his 100% preferred system because the roster didn’t allow for it (after years as coach, he was still pragmatic enough to make a reasonable choice).

Armas would be wise to behave similarly.

[OgtheDim]

Let's see what it looks like with Poz in there, and once we get the lineup settled.

No team in MLS can survive losing the league MVP.

I think maybe it's be worth waiting a few games before opining on Armas' tactics/flexibility etc. It really will take 5-6 more games at least to know.


I think some trends are becoming discernible. Whether or not they continue once we have a truly creative AM in there is another thing. I agree we won't really know until into July.

But there were a number of things about the last 5 game that show trends that are worth evaluating.


Ultimately, if this team doesn't make the playoffs, Armas is gone. Not sure TFC would pull the trigger early in order to try to make the playoffs without him. But that will be the test. Everything else we discuss is just how to's.

[MightyDM]

Let's see what it looks like with Poz in there, and once we get the lineup settled.

No team in MLS can survive losing the league MVP.

I think maybe it's be worth waiting a few games before opining on Armas' tactics/flexibility etc. It really will take 5-6 more games at least to know.

you are of course right on the need to give him time, but there are alarm bells sounding all over the place. “ Danger Danger Will Robinson “ type alarm bells.

[DavemTFC]

Wasn't the talk around Armas first getting hired that he wasn't going to overhaul everything but just tweak aspects of the team's play? This is still a team with an aging core in win-now mode and we won't win anything this season with a style so different from the previous one it takes an entire season, at minimum, to adjust

[ensco]

You guys are all jumping to the conclusion that our best players are playing like crap because of the new coach/system.

I am telling you, that is just a cause/effect assumption that you guys are making.

I am watching the Raps, and with them, their best players, truly elite players, are playing inexplicably like crap with the exact same championship coach.

Covid, no training camp, living out of a suitcase, injuries, are not Armas' fault. (If you blame the injuries on Armas, again, you are just making an assumption. Find something that supports that. Best I can tell, NYRB didn’t have unusual injury outcomes with him in charge.)

[reggie]

armas mentioned that the players did not have a off season training program after the vanney crew left,he also said the tfc were last in the league in sprints during the game,and his style is more of sprint style of game pressing therefore it is a change in training,this roster is not used to it,the redbulls play that style from the age of 15 or younger.

[MightyDM]

You guys are all jumping to the conclusion that our best players are playing like crap because of the new coach/system.

I am telling you, that is just a cause/effect assumption that you guys are making.

I am watching the Raps, and with them, their best players, truly elite players, are playing inexplicably like crap with the exact same championship coach.

Covid, no training camp, living out of a suitcase, injuries, are not Armas' fault. (If you blame the injuries on Armas, again, you are just making an assumption. Find something that supports that. Best I can tell, NYRB didn’t have unusual injury outcomes with him in charge.)

You have a fair point in all of that Ensco. And it’s why all of my posts have agreed that it’s early. But boy they look like there is no system, or organization.

[MikeForbes]

I rewatched the game. We look lost and completely confused when we press and win the ball back. Bradley, Priso and Delgado won the ball back multiple times and had no outlets to pass to which lead to quite a few giveaways. It is like Armas has taught them the ins and outs of the high press and forgot to mention what comes next.

[jabbronies]

The only thing I can evaluate him on right now is his GK decision.

I think after that flop in Mexico, Bono should've gotten pulled the following match. But I guess Armas gave Bono the chance to redeem himself one more time. Something tells me Armas knows Once Q goes back in, he won't be coming out.

This was Bono's chance to prove that he's learned from his past mistakes and IMO he's flopped (distribution is still shit, positioning is still shit, communication is still shit). We'll see what Armas does next match.

[Ultra & Proud]

The only thing I can evaluate him on right now is his GK decision.

I think after that flop in Mexico, Bono should've gotten pulled the following match. But I guess Armas gave Bono the chance to redeem himself one more time. Something tells me Armas knows Once Q goes back in, he won't be coming out.

This was Bono's chance to prove that he's learned from his past mistakes and IMO he's flopped (distribution is still shit, positioning is still shit, communication is still shit). We'll see what Armas does next match.
This is where I am at too. This says the most about Armas' flexibility and how he will move forward. If he drives the team into the dirt by sticking with Bono no matter what then we'll tank and he will be fired before the next window. Pretty clear that on top of the Bono issues you mentioned, there's also the effect Westberg has on our defense. They all seem more relaxed and structured with him there because he knows what he's doing and ciommunicates it well. Bono's general chaos spreads out and no one is comfortable with him scrambling all over and making no sense.

[jabbronies]

This is where I am at too. This says the most about Armas' flexibility and how he will move forward. If he drives the team into the dirt by sticking with Bono no matter what then we'll tank and he will be fired before the next window. Pretty clear that on top of the Bono issues you mentioned, there's also the effect Westberg has on our defense. They all seem more relaxed and structured with him there because he knows what he's doing and ciommunicates it well. Bono's general chaos spreads out and no one is comfortable with him scrambling all over and making no sense.

I really do think Armas knows Q is the guy. I think he's doing that nice coach thing and giving him a chance. Bono has done the work to be given the chance. I get it.

To be honest, Bono hasn't been a calamity of errors. But I think when you look at the overall picture, it's clear to see his weaknesses. And because we know Bono so well, we know he hasn't changed from his 2018 form. His errors will 100% be the thing that decides games. We saw it in Mexico already.

A new coach is going to give a guy like Bono a chance to prove himself. It's just the nurturing thing for a coach to do this early on in the season.

Once Q is back in there. He'll be there for good.

[Oldtimer]

You have a fair point in all of that Ensco. And it’s why all of my posts have agreed that it’s early. But boy they look like there is no system, or organization.

It's a bit early to conclude anything, we just have a few disturbing indications but Armas could still possibly turn things around with a full squad. We should give him a chance.

However, Toronto fans being who they are, #ArmasOut is already a thing on twitter. :(

[Joe Kool]

I rewatched the game. We look lost and completely confused when we press and win the ball back. Bradley, Priso and Delgado won the ball back multiple times and had no outlets to pass to which lead to quite a few giveaways. It is like Armas has taught them the ins and outs of the high press and forgot to mention what comes next.

I had a hard time watching it the first time...hats off to you for sticking it out :)

[OgtheDim]

Part of me wouldn't mind seeing the game again, but from the NYRB feed. Don't always agree with Shep Messing but he doesn't hold back his punches if crap is crap.

[Canary10]

This was the first game I managed to watch all the way through. I agree with the sentiment on the board, we looked pretty poor. The passing in particular was horrendous. Just looked like we had no idea where anyone would be when we recovered the ball. Might be partly the new faces in the lineup, or maybe with the press that automatic knowledge of where everyone is going to be is gone. Need to sort that out fast. We did have a lot of nice interceptions deep in their end though, especially Bradley. Could easily have scored off one of those if we had any concept once we get the ball.

[Ultra & Proud]

If Armas starts Bono on Wednesday & Saturday this week and Bono is Bono then we better see Westberg @ Orlando.

If not then there's no hope for Armas. It's another Freddy Hall and Marriner situation.

[Blindside16]

What is concerning to me is when we win back the ball there is no clear form of attack. You can almost see it in their body language that they look unsure or confused on what they should do in the attacking third. I am not sure if this is due to a lack of instruction on the coaches end or the fact of a younger squad that does not have the experience necessary to make those quick decisive decisions. Both Bono and Delgado gave the ball away far to cheaply in that game. In fact I think Delgado may have completed more passes to Redbull players than his own teammates. The ball is hard enough to win at the best of times, we cannot afford to just hand it right back to them.

[ag futbol]

This was the first game I managed to watch all the way through. I agree with the sentiment on the board, we looked pretty poor. The passing in particular was horrendous. Just looked like we had no idea where anyone would be when we recovered the ball. Might be partly the new faces in the lineup, or maybe with the press that automatic knowledge of where everyone is going to be is gone. Need to sort that out fast. We did have a lot of nice interceptions deep in their end though, especially Bradley. Could easily have scored off one of those if we had any concept once we get the ball.
I thought our high press was a bit of a mirage in terms of its usefulness. Bradley, Priso, and Delgado left acres of space in front of the centre backs. The second NJ was able to get the ball into the pocket it was instant panic station defending. Heck, any time Omar had to run it looked awful. A even slightly miss weighted pass in his direction was made to look difficult.

Armas needs to take off the blinders and find the best way to win with the team he has. The system is neither good nor bad, but inflexibility will be our downfall if we don’t adapt. And to be frank, we really shouldn’t be tailoring our roster for a coach with such a limited reputation and track record.

[Joe Kool]

I thought our high press was a bit of a mirage in terms of its usefulness. Bradley, Priso, and Delgado left acres of space in front of the centre backs. The second NJ was able to get the ball into the pocket it was instant panic station defending. Heck, any time Omar had to run it looked awful. A even slightly miss weighted pass in his direction was made to look difficult.

Armas needs to take off the blinders and find the best way to win with the team he has. The system is neither good nor bad, but inflexibility will be our downfall if we don’t adapt. And to be frank, we really shouldn’t be tailoring our roster for a coach with such a limited reputation and track record.

Totally agree with you. At some point if things are not working there has to be adjustments. I really hope he is not going to be a one dimensional coach that can't adjust real time because teams will just plan for how to play us and we will be predictable and we will lose....a lot. Anyone hoping that Poz is going to step in and turn things around from where they are now is dreaming a bit. Yeah Poz has won games on his individual brilliance in the past but we have to be able to play also without him and look at least like a credible team with a plan of attack. Right now it just looks like throw 11 guys on the field and see what happens. With no system you are just relying on individual ability which there is varying amounts in MLS teams.

[jabbronies]

What is concerning to me is when we win back the ball there is no clear form of attack. You can almost see it in their body language that they look unsure or confused on what they should do in the attacking third. I am not sure if this is due to a lack of instruction on the coaches end or the fact of a younger squad that does not have the experience necessary to make those quick decisive decisions. Both Bono and Delgado gave the ball away far to cheaply in that game. In fact I think Delgado may have completed more passes to Redbull players than his own teammates. The ball is hard enough to win at the best of times, we cannot afford to just hand it right back to them.

Delgado is a transition guy. He gets the ball, he passes it off to the first cog in the attack. When Poz is playing, it's obvious where the ball needs to go. Without that first go to guy - he looks lost. I won't blame Delgado for this.

RE: Overall Confusion - I think part of the confusion is also exhaustion. These guys look tired AF

[ensco]

Over/under on the page count of this thread by Sunday night?

I think it's 8.

[Ultra & Proud]

Over/under on the page count of this thread by Sunday night?

I think it's 8.
If we win tomorrow then I say 6. If we lose tomorrow then probably about 11.

[OgtheDim]

Over/under on the page count of this thread by Sunday night?

I think it's 8.


True - It was either going to be corralled in here or within the game threads. I'm anticipating losses the next 2 games.

[portu]

If Armas starts Bono on Wednesday & Saturday this week and Bono is Bono then we better see Westberg @ Orlando.

If not then there's no hope for Armas. It's another Freddy Hall and Marriner situation.
Don't forget the Bendik, Ryan Nelsen love affair while Stefan Frei languished on the bench. Will always find the fact he wasn't given a final game to hit 100 appearances a very indicative aspect of club culture at the time. Frei was in the end basically traded (with GAM) for Jackson.

[KULA10]

I’m not bashing anyone as it’s still early

But there certainly is something wrong within the dressing room

Against RedBull not one player seemed like they wanted to play with no desire or willingness

[ensco]

Coach of the year, no?

[OgtheDim]

"Not going to kill you tonight Wesley. Still probably going to do so in the morning...."


It was better. We have shown we can beat a passive non pressing team. Armas also had them rotating a LOT which made a big difference.


Bono seems there to stay - Armas comments about him being in the upper tier show us what Armas thinks keepers should be. Sad because we could be a lot better with Q back there but that is what it is.

NYC will be a different nut to crack.

[MightyDM]

hahahah. Tonight was organized and highly competent - full credit to Armas. Moves him back into the "too early to decide' box...

[ensco]

^The Bono/Q thing is interesting. Here is my guess as to what is going on.

I think Armas has decided Bono's issue is confidence, and to give him a real commitment, ie 10-15 games.

If Bono earns the job back, great. My guess is though that if/when Bono sits, we will never see him again.

[Yohan]

^The Bono/Q thing is interesting. Here is my guess as to what is going on.

I think Armas has decided Bono's issue is confidence, and to give him a real commitment, ie 10-15 games.

My guess is though that if/when Bono sits, we will never see him again.
also puts Bono on the shopping window, if a trade is something that's being considered

[ensco]

also puts Bono on the shopping window, if a trade is something that's being considered

Ya good point.

[MikeForbes]

Much better tonight. Still very concerned about the team and it's ability to score goals, but they looked much more organized and everyone put in the work tonight. I do worry that other teams will see what the Red Bulls did to this us and start pressing more.

[PaceyWinger]

Every question mark I had going into tonight I still have save one: can this team play with some composure on the ball. The answer is a merciful yes. The question is can Armas lean into that and find the system that allows TFC to press effectively while avoiding killing the attack, the players, and our spirits. There is a balance that I think will work and tonight was a giant step in the right direction.

[ensco]

Amazing how good Armas looks when the top players have a good game.

[OgtheDim]

When we do that against a team who presses, even a little bit, then it's impressive.

The in game switching was VERY good with us morphing the 4-2-3-1 into 4-3-3 & 4-4-2 & 4-1-3-2 & 5-3-1-1.

NYC can press, if they so choose - It's how they killed us at MLS is Back. They also have better DMs

[Oldtimer]

It's still too early to evaluate Armas. Seeing how a healthy team plays against a variety of opponents is a must.

I missed this game (anniversary) but the reports seem encouraging. Better organized and some changes to the system.

We did this sort of thing with Vanney too. Some people who made early pronouncements that he was a disaster then couldn't back down even when TFC won the triple. Others like myself (a bit milder but still not preferring him) ended up having to say we were wrong.

Personally I would have preferred if we start evaluating half way through the season. By then we'd have a good idea of his strengths and weaknesses, and whether he is an asset or a liability. Probably an unrealistic idea of mine, but coming from experience. I think Og read the room correctly to start this thread, though. People were never going to wait.

[smtavare]

Anyone have Armas' full resume

USSF, UEFA, FIFA Pro Licenses if he has any, where he began coaching etc,

or did he just learn from watching Jesse Marsch (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesse_Marsch) and inherited his team when he left, and enjoyed all the fruits of his labour if you know what I mean


All I see on Wikipedia is below:



Coaching career[edit (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Chris_Armas&action=edit&section=5&editintro=Template:BLP_editintro)]Armas served as an assistant coach for the Chicago Fire in 2008 and was the head women's soccer coach at Adelphi University (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adelphi_University) between 2011 and 2015.
On July 6, 2018, Armas was promoted to head coach of New York Red Bulls (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_Red_Bulls) after former manager Jesse Marsch (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesse_Marsch) departed the club to join RB Leipzig (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RB_Leipzig) as an assistant.[6] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Armas#cite_note-6) Armas helped the Red Bulls finish first in the regular season, winning the Supporters' Shield as a result. The Red Bulls were eliminated in the conference finals by Atlanta United FC (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlanta_United_FC).
In 2019, the Red Bulls finished sixth in the Eastern Conference and were eliminated by the Philadelphia Union (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philadelphia_Union) in the first round of the playoffs. The Red Bulls were then eliminated in the group stage of the MLS is Back Tournament (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MLS_is_Back_Tournament) after they were defeated by FC Cincinnati (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FC_Cincinnati). The team was in the middle of a scoring slump when Armas parted ways with the club on September 4, 2020.[7] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Armas#cite_note-7)
In 2021, Armas was hired as head coach of Toronto FC (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toronto_FC), replacing Greg Vanney (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greg_Vanney).[8] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Armas#cite_note-8)

[Areathrasher]

Anyone have Armas' full resume

USSF, UEFA, FIFA Pro Licenses if he has any, where he began coaching etc,

or did he just learn from watching Jesse Marsch (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesse_Marsch) and inherited his team when he left, and enjoyed all the fruits of his labour if you know what I mean


All I see on Wikipedia is below:



Coaching career[edit (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Chris_Armas&action=edit&section=5&editintro=Template:BLP_editintro)]

Armas served as an assistant coach for the Chicago Fire in 2008 and was the head women's soccer coach at Adelphi University (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adelphi_University) between 2011 and 2015.
On July 6, 2018, Armas was promoted to head coach of New York Red Bulls (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_Red_Bulls) after former manager Jesse Marsch (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesse_Marsch) departed the club to join RB Leipzig (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RB_Leipzig) as an assistant.[6] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Armas#cite_note-6) Armas helped the Red Bulls finish first in the regular season, winning the Supporters' Shield as a result. The Red Bulls were eliminated in the conference finals by Atlanta United FC (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlanta_United_FC).
In 2019, the Red Bulls finished sixth in the Eastern Conference and were eliminated by the Philadelphia Union (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philadelphia_Union) in the first round of the playoffs. The Red Bulls were then eliminated in the group stage of the MLS is Back Tournament (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MLS_is_Back_Tournament) after they were defeated by FC Cincinnati (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FC_Cincinnati). The team was in the middle of a scoring slump when Armas parted ways with the club on September 4, 2020.[7] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Armas#cite_note-7)
In 2021, Armas was hired as head coach of Toronto FC (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toronto_FC), replacing Greg Vanney (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greg_Vanney).[8] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Armas#cite_note-8)

Funny you say that. If you read all the coaching staffs bio's https://www.torontofc.ca/club/coaching-staff Armas is the only one without his licenses listed....

[jabbronies]

We looked dog tired by the 65th minute. Not the first time I've seen us this ragged that early - maybe even earlier in previous matches.

I want to see how he manages this as the season goes on. This will be critical to our success both on the field and in the doctors office.

[MightyDM]

^The Bono/Q thing is interesting. Here is my guess as to what is going on.

I think Armas has decided Bono's issue is confidence, and to give him a real commitment, ie 10-15 games.

If Bono earns the job back, great. My guess is though that if/when Bono sits, we will never see him again.

I also think he will sit after this clean sheet. Much better for his confidence.

[MightyDM]

Funny you say that. If you read all the coaching staffs bio's https://www.torontofc.ca/club/coaching-staff Armas is the only one without his licenses listed....

I am not so sure - DeLeon looked dog tired and some others; not all

[Joe Kool]

^The Bono/Q thing is interesting. Here is my guess as to what is going on.

I think Armas has decided Bono's issue is confidence, and to give him a real commitment, ie 10-15 games.

If Bono earns the job back, great. My guess is though that if/when Bono sits, we will never see him again.

This could be it but a not so great 10-15 games could mean us missing the playoffs especially if it comes down to a couple points difference at the end. That would be what would worry me about something like that. As it was said in another thread though too, Bono is making double the wage of Q so it could be management's way of justifying the spend as well.

[OgtheDim]

Bono is 12th highest GK salary in the leauge

[leedsandTFC]

tactically very good last night.

substitutions to respond to crew formation change that totally nullified their threat.

we looked very comfortable all night, scored two goals, crew had 2 goalline clearances and we hit the inside of the bar 2 times.

also good to see us be threatening from set pieces! been a while.

this team with oso and poz +lawrence and jozy starting has the potential to be fantastic, let's hope we can see it soon.

[MightyDM]

When we do that against a team who presses, even a little bit, then it's impressive.

The in game switching was VERY good with us morphing the 4-2-3-1 into 4-3-3 & 4-4-2 & 4-1-3-2 & 5-3-1-1.

NYC can press, if they so choose - It's how they killed us at MLS is Back. They also have better DMs

Yes. Credit to Armas for that for certain. And to the players for the tactical discipline

[MightyDM]

It's still too early to evaluate Armas. Seeing how a healthy team plays against a variety of opponents is a must.

I missed this game (anniversary) but the reports seem encouraging. Better organized and some changes to the system.

We did this sort of thing with Vanney too. Some people who made early pronouncements that he was a disaster then couldn't back down even when TFC won the triple. Others like myself (a bit milder but still not preferring him) ended up having to say we were wrong.

Personally I would have preferred if we start evaluating half way through the season. By then we'd have a good idea of his strengths and weaknesses, and whether he is an asset or a liability. Probably an unrealistic idea of mine, but coming from experience. I think Og read the room correctly to start this thread, though. People were never going to wait.

Never too early to have an opinion!

[Slick]

It's still too early to evaluate Armas. Seeing how a healthy team plays against a variety of opponents is a must.

I missed this game (anniversary) but the reports seem encouraging. Better organized and some changes to the system.

We did this sort of thing with Vanney too. Some people who made early pronouncements that he was a disaster then couldn't back down even when TFC won the triple. Others like myself (a bit milder but still not preferring him) ended up having to say we were wrong.

Personally I would have preferred if we start evaluating half way through the season. By then we'd have a good idea of his strengths and weaknesses, and whether he is an asset or a liability. Probably an unrealistic idea of mine, but coming from experience. I think Og read the room correctly to start this thread, though. People were never going to wait.

I was with you oldtimer (to wait for half the season), until I watched today's game. If Bono starts the next MLS game, then I have no choice but to question his decision making.

[MikeForbes]

I can't get over how ugly of a style Armas has us playing considering the quality of players we have.

[portu]

Decided to read into Armas following today in the hopes of finding some indication of positive progression for us. In case people are looking for things to pay attention to with Armas and the team read below. The conclusion is he's either the guy that led RBNY to a 2018 Supporters' Shield, or the guy who was 'meh' from 2019-2020. Regardless, he's a stubborn but likeable dude, who makes weird personnel/tactical decisions.


History


Armas basically rode the Jesse Marsch wave to the 2018 Supporters’ Shield. The team was apparently noticeably less aggressive and clinical. Still he went 12-3-2, a remarkable run.
He caught a lot of criticism from fans for a comparatively mediocre 2019 season, which included getting bounced in the second round of CCL and first round of the Open Cup and Playoffs. The more sane explanation for these performances was related to management's inability to reinvest in a team that lost a number of key players going into 2019 (Tyler Adams, etc).
2019 was basically looked at as a gimme year. He rolled into 2020 with real things expected of him. The Red Bulls squad was retooled in his image.
However, he fumbled their league-leading fullback situation, misused key players consistently and stubbornly stuck to odd tactical decisions.
The mid-2020 picture of Armas was characterized by a “trend of individual-level underachievement” and collective tactical confusion. Players looked lost, out of step with each other, attacks were predictable RBNY was also starving for goals.
When he was fired there were cries that team issues went far beyond coaching (investment, organization, structure, etc).




Overview


Armas views winning in MLS as rightly difficult, but seems to look at surviving matches as the ideal way to play in this league. He likes to talk about going out to win every game, but when people hold him to that he recoils into a “we can’t win every game” stance.
2 years into his tenure one of his common post-game tropes was that “we need to learn how to deal with X or we’re adjusting to doing Y”. Some of these quotes seriously sound the same as the stuff we’re hearing 10 games in.
He seems to struggle to think truly critically about his team and when he does try he tinkers far too much. He makes a lot of tactically incoherent decisions and when they don’t work he decides to persist with them. (There was a point where he basically tried to use their best player, Kaku, as a super-sub).
Scoring goals and attacking play in an Armas side has a lot to do with putting the ball into difficult areas of the box and looking for first or second chances. (See: Shaffelburg to Mullins against Leon or Bradley's goal against Columbus.)
I really didn’t find much about injuries aside from his ominous disclosure of them. Specifically when Kemar Lawrence was healthy from November 2018 to March 2019 and Armas said he was injured to have a reason for keeping him out of the team. There was also a BWP thing for a while in 2019 that didn’t make sense.


TL;DR



Overall, the guy appears genuinely likeable, but he is prone to making up ‘non-excuses’ and persistently odd tactical decisions.
His 2018 form, the only season he ever won more than two games in a row, is likely what got him hired. The theory being that the post-Marsch Red Bulls did not adequately invest in their squad following key departures and thereon Armas was doomed to fail.


Reading (I found the SB Nation stuff to be far more expositive than anything you could find elsewhere)
https://www.onceametro.com/2020/2/29/21158765/the-case-for-armas-out
https://www.onceametro.com/2020/2/18/21140793/outside-backs-on-the-outs
https://www.onceametro.com/2020/7/29/21336525/chris-armas-mls-is-back-tournament
https://www.onceametro.com/2019/9/1/20843817/was-there-ever-faith-from-red-bull-global-in-red-bulls-head-coach-chris-armas
https://www.onceametro.com/2020/8/20/21376905/three-things-to-watch-new-york-city-fc
https://www.onceametro.com/2020/9/4/21422818/new-york-red-bulls-fire-head-coach-chris-armas
https://www.onceametro.com/2020/8/21/21395038/should-the-red-bulls-be-as-satisfied-with-last-nights-performance-as-they-seem-to-be

[OgtheDim]

I can't get over how ugly of a style Armas has us playing considering the quality of players we have.


Don't judge much from yesterday's game vis a vis style - that barn box warps all styles into a frenetic stupid mess.


Goals are either caused through freakish idiocy or something extremely sublime. Bono = idiocy Dwyer & Moulinho & Shaffs = sublime - seriously go back and watch that interplay.

Good points from yesterday

Adjusted to that pitch - forcing the press & or the Vanney style into that place is difficult

Adjusted player positions - Auro, Jozy as a #10.

Mass subs made at the right time changed how they had to defend.



Bad

Bono

Should have brought Priso in sooner

We still have no decent #10 but Oso & Poz

More injuries to our mids causing us to have to put a FB into a DM role isn't really something to celebrate

[East Coast Red]

I can't get over how ugly of a style Armas has us playing considering the quality of players we have.

I've never liked the Red Bulls style of play, and find it sad that TFC is heading down the same route. But football fans are very fickle people, I guess it's a wonderful style of play if you win, and looks awful if you lose.

[Auzzy]

Don't judge much from yesterday's game vis a vis style - that barn box warps all styles into a frenetic stupid mess.


Goals are either caused through freakish idiocy or something extremely sublime. Bono = idiocy Dwyer & Moulinho & Shaffs = sublime - seriously go back and watch that interplay.

Good points from yesterday

Adjusted to that pitch - forcing the press & or the Vanney style into that place is difficult

Adjusted player positions - Auro, Jozy as a #10.

Mass subs made at the right time changed how they had to defend.



Bad

Bono

Should have brought Priso in sooner

We still have no decent #10 but Oso & Poz

More injuries to our mids causing us to have to put a FB into a DM role isn't really something to celebrate

i agree with all that.

Something to add that worried me: despite the small pitch, TFC were often very open on defence. Most of the time NY was very compact in their D, and TFC had to work hard to overcome that. On our end, you could often drive a bus through the defence. Perhaps that's partially on Bono and organizing his D, but the defenders and defensive midfielders also have to organize. Some examples: both Mavinga and Gonzalez were often pulled too much to one side where the ball was, leaving Richie all alone in front of net, with at least one & sometimes more NY attackers. Or there was a huge gap between Gonzalez and Mavinga in the middle; or they were both too far forward. It's really unusual for Castellanos not to score a couple with the all chances given him yesterday. I think before yesterday he had scored 4 goals in 4 games. We really lucked out there.

[Oldtimer]

His 2018 form, the only season he ever won more than two games in a row, is likely what got him hired. The theory being that the post-Marsch Red Bulls did not adequately invest in their squad following key departures and thereon Armas was doomed to fail.



Thanks for doing this. An underwhelming resume to say the least, but how much of that was due to the owners is a question. With MLSE resources he'd better get results.

[smtavare]

Decided to read into Armas following today in the hopes of finding some indication of positive progression for us. In case people are looking for things to pay attention to with Armas and the team read below. The conclusion is he's either the guy that led RBNY to a 2018 Supporters' Shield, or the guy who was 'meh' from 2019-2020. Regardless, he's a stubborn but likeable dude, who makes weird personnel/tactical decisions.


History


Armas basically rode the Jesse Marsch wave to the 2018 Supporters’ Shield. The team was apparently noticeably less aggressive and clinical. Still he went 12-3-2, a remarkable run.
He caught a lot of criticism from fans for a comparatively mediocre 2019 season, which included getting bounced in the second round of CCL and first round of the Open Cup and Playoffs. The more sane explanation for these performances was related to management's inability to reinvest in a team that lost a number of key players going into 2019 (Tyler Adams, etc).
2019 was basically looked at as a gimme year. He rolled into 2020 with real things expected of him. The Red Bulls squad was retooled in his image.
However, he fumbled their league-leading fullback situation, misused key players consistently and stubbornly stuck to odd tactical decisions.
The mid-2020 picture of Armas was characterized by a “trend of individual-level underachievement” and collective tactical confusion. Players looked lost, out of step with each other, attacks were predictable RBNY was also starving for goals.
When he was fired there were cries that team issues went far beyond coaching (investment, organization, structure, etc).




Overview


Armas views winning in MLS as rightly difficult, but seems to look at surviving matches as the ideal way to play in this league. He likes to talk about going out to win every game, but when people hold him to that he recoils into a “we can’t win every game” stance.
2 years into his tenure one of his common post-game tropes was that “we need to learn how to deal with X or we’re adjusting to doing Y”. Some of these quotes seriously sound the same as the stuff we’re hearing 10 games in.
He seems to struggle to think truly critically about his team and when he does try he tinkers far too much. He makes a lot of tactically incoherent decisions and when they don’t work he decides to persist with them. (There was a point where he basically tried to use their best player, Kaku, as a super-sub).
Scoring goals and attacking play in an Armas side has a lot to do with putting the ball into difficult areas of the box and looking for first or second chances. (See: Shaffelburg to Mullins against Leon or Bradley's goal against Columbus.)
I really didn’t find much about injuries aside from his ominous disclosure of them. Specifically when Kemar Lawrence was healthy from November 2018 to March 2019 and Armas said he was injured to have a reason for keeping him out of the team. There was also a BWP thing for a while in 2019 that didn’t make sense.


TL;DR



Overall, the guy appears genuinely likeable, but he is prone to making up ‘non-excuses’ and persistently odd tactical decisions.
His 2018 form, the only season he ever won more than two games in a row, is likely what got him hired. The theory being that the post-Marsch Red Bulls did not adequately invest in their squad following key departures and thereon Armas was doomed to fail.


Reading (I found the SB Nation stuff to be far more expositive than anything you could find elsewhere)
https://www.onceametro.com/2020/2/29/21158765/the-case-for-armas-out
https://www.onceametro.com/2020/2/18/21140793/outside-backs-on-the-outs
https://www.onceametro.com/2020/7/29/21336525/chris-armas-mls-is-back-tournament
https://www.onceametro.com/2019/9/1/20843817/was-there-ever-faith-from-red-bull-global-in-red-bulls-head-coach-chris-armas
https://www.onceametro.com/2020/8/20/21376905/three-things-to-watch-new-york-city-fc
https://www.onceametro.com/2020/9/4/21422818/new-york-red-bulls-fire-head-coach-chris-armas
https://www.onceametro.com/2020/8/21/21395038/should-the-red-bulls-be-as-satisfied-with-last-nights-performance-as-they-seem-to-be




Did it mention anywhere about his professional licenses? anyways looks like all mentioned above is already happening with TFC - do not like direction we are going with all this Talent

If we have a Bad year with Pozuelo and Osario back, he has to go

[trane]

From the start I thought hiring Armas was a step in the wrong direction, I new little of him, other then he seemed to me that he was from a bygone MLS era, one with an approach that the MLS game had gone away from. At the same time despite the crazy 2020 season, TFC had been a team that pushed the tactics forward, and Vanney or not, it seemed to me that we should build on that identity.

However, despite my initial hesitancy, I decided to hold my proverbial tongue, because I new very little about him. Now that the season is well under way, I have to say that I am still not feeling it, not seeing it. We look very average. We do not defend well, we do not attack well. Everything seems to be vanilla and standard at the best of time, and confused at the worst of times. I think that particularly in the MLS a team identity and system is crucial for success. I just do not see it.

I am overwhelmingly underwhelmed, to this point.

If TFC was in Toronto, I would ask to give him no more then half a season to show something, but he is lucky in that we are not at BMO. However, I would like see us hit the ground running once TFC is back were it belongs.

AND Jozy should always be our 9. That is what he is, that is were you want him, closest to goal as much as possible. If you have not true 10, then find different ways to feed him the ball. But Jozy has to be a prime target.

[ensco]

Decided to read into Armas following today in the hopes of finding some indication of positive progression for us. In case people are looking for things to pay attention to with Armas and the team read below. The conclusion is he's either the guy that led RBNY to a 2018 Supporters' Shield, or the guy who was 'meh' from 2019-2020. Regardless, he's a stubborn but likeable dude, who makes weird personnel/tactical decisions.
......



Love posts like this.

Reading this actually really reminded of Vanney's first two years here. People here were all over Vanney for being inflexible (back then it was not changing formation in game, and being too late with subs).

I don’t have an opinion yet, or at less until we find out what is going on in the room. The guy may be sitting on top of a volcano that we don't see yet.

Respect is earned in life, and rarely just given.

[MightyDM]

I knew nothing about Armas before his hiring; the fact that Michael Bradley so evidently supported him meant that I gave him the benefit of the doubt. The Montreal, Vancouver and Red Bull games got me extremely worried because they were a shambles. The Red Bull game was unwatchable; completely disorganized and worse; made me think "if it's this bad he has to go." Columbus, on the other hand, looked organized, competent and you could see what he was trying to do. So for me he rescued himself and I am again defaulting to "MB respects him so I am giving him the benefit of the doubt." However, unlike Vannney, he has been an MLS Head coach. He has less of a learning curve and I think we can make judgements sooner. The next few games will be important to see if the team builds on Columbus and shows a structure and purpose. He gets a pass on that front for NYCFC because those games are always helter skelter - you cannot really make coaching judgments except about lineup choices - and there he did well (Auro) and badly (Bono) at the same time.

[Canary10]

I think a half season is reasonable to make a decision on him. This is a strong team so there is no reason to not be winning. The way he was hired too is very suspect to me. I can understand the benefit of tapping your networks, but in this case it feels a lot more like rewarding your friends rather than leveraging them for a real stand-out. I actually don't mind the style of play if it's done well. Spurs looked great under Pochettino. Hate to say it, but Leeds are a joy to watch. I think we got stale under Vanney, and the style of play was a bit stale too. I like moving the ball faster, less build up. But so far he hasn't shown he can implement it well, except in the odd flashes.

[leedsandTFC]

I think a half season is reasonable to make a decision on him. This is a strong team so there is no reason to not be winning. The way he was hired too is very suspect to me. I can understand the benefit of tapping your networks, but in this case it feels a lot more like rewarding your friends rather than leveraging them for a real stand-out. I actually don't mind the style of play if it's done well. Spurs looked great under Pochettino. Hate to say it, but Leeds are a joy to watch. I think we got stale under Vanney, and the style of play was a bit stale too. I like moving the ball faster, less build up. But so far he hasn't shown he can implement it well, except in the odd flashes.
can comfortably say that what armas is trying to do is not what leeds do.

we (tfc) are far more narrow, and dont pressure as effectively. also I don't feel like our players have the fitness for an effective press, they are tending to fade in the second half.

in a way it's understandable, as pre season was short and covid interrupted, but still not great.

[OgtheDim]

The game in Orlando will be an interesting test.


Away game at a place where we are comfortable playing, with real fans in attendance against a good confident & very athletic team with a good manager. In theory, players missing could include Poz, Oso & Delgado.

[Canary10]

can comfortably say that what armas is trying to do is not what leeds do.

we (tfc) are far more narrow, and dont pressure as effectively. also I don't feel like our players have the fitness for an effective press, they are tending to fade in the second half.

in a way it's understandable, as pre season was short and covid interrupted, but still not great.

Yeah that's fair. I'm not about to contradict you given your name! I'm just saying the style can be done in a stylish way.

[MightyDM]

as someone else said earlier in this thread, we need to combine pressing and possession more the way Man City does - thats the way to connect the players we have with a new approach.

[leedsandTFC]

Yeah that's fair. I'm not about to contradict you given your name! I'm just saying the style can be done in a stylish way.

definitely can.

all starts with having incredibly high fitness levels though, which i think it's clear we dont.

also unsure as to how this would work in many parts of the US over the summer where the temperature can reach 30 degrees +

[Canary10]

definitely can.

all starts with having incredibly high fitness levels though, which i think it's clear we dont.

also unsure as to how this would work in many parts of the US over the summer where the temperature can reach 30 degrees +

Definitely true (even altitude in some places). We don't have the fitness atm regardless, as you said.

[portu]

Did it mention anywhere about his professional licenses? anyways looks like all mentioned above is already happening with TFC - do not like direction we are going with all this Talent

If we have a Bad year with Pozuelo and Osario back, he has to go
No licenses - plucked straight out of high school / collegiate system.

[noimpactinmtl]

No licenses - plucked straight out of high school / collegiate system.


He had all the time in the world and a Red Bull system to start working on his UEFA licenses, and he didn't do it.

[portu]

He had all the time in the world and a Red Bull system to start working on his UEFA licenses, and he didn't do it.
I’m not really one to care too much about these things, but I have to agree. Very little indication of any commitment to his professional development. Especially when you consider the resources available to him at RBNY and compared to Marsch.

Vanney felt like he was always trying to progress, even if it didn’t come off on the pitch.

[trane]

Yeah, early on Vanney seemed to have a clear idea of what he wanted to do, even if it was not working. In the end we benefited.

I do have concerns about an all out pressing system for 90 minutes, in light of so many of our games being played in summer. It is not so easy to press, in 30 degree heat, not for 90.

[TFC/Everton]

TFC should have brought Robin Fraser back, but here we are. I don't know why I dislike Armas as our coach so much. I like that he's playing the kids and I like the players we've signed, but something about him I just don't have faith in.

I suspect we are going to be a top 4 team in the east this year and he will survive as our coach for several years, while underperforming season after season.

[DinamoTFC]

I thought you need to have professional licenses in order to coach professionally? Or is that just in Europe ?

[jabbronies]

Yeah, early on Vanney seemed to have a clear idea of what he wanted to do, even if it was not working. In the end we benefited.

I do have concerns about an all out pressing system for 90 minutes, in light of so many of our games being played in summer. It is not so easy to press, in 30 degree heat, not for 90.


Well is it all out pressing for 90?
I thought the goal was press hard on defence to win the ball back - rest when in possession - move the ball forward

Vanney was definitely more:
Win the ball in Key Areas - possession until the opportunity presents itself to move forward.

[KULA10]

I just think the TFC no POZZ excuse is rubbish and childish

Seattle missing Nicolás Lodeiro & Jack Morris but are still best team in MLS with 16 points

[KULA10]

Call me crazy but I’m 99.99% sure that previous Saturday vs NYCFC we saw TFC play VANNEY BALL at moments instead of ARMAS BALL

You definitely can’t win a 🏆 early on but certainly can loose it early on -as they’ve already lost supporter 🛡

I’m not bashing Armas but it’s unacceptable to have 5 points in 5 games with the players that he has

But as long they beat LEON and BONO is his #1

[Kiwi10]

Call me crazy but I’m 99.99% sure that previous Saturday vs NYCFC we saw TFC play VANNEY BALL at moments instead of ARMAS BALL

I feel this. Lots of times the pressing seems to work and the ball is won in a dangerous part of the pitch, but then the old habits kick in and things slow down enough for the opposition to catch back up and get into position. Need to make those turnovers more punishing.

Big system overhaul for sure so I can be patient but team doesn't seem to have their new attacking identity quite figured out yet.

[portu]

I think Armas deserves until July 7 (12 MLS Matches; 16 Total) before people start forming very firm opinions. He's got a significant break to work with the play players after next week and then there's a rush of games. If we're playing as poorly as we have been and the results match then I think it's hard not to be Armas out. This team thinks it’s good enough to win, it should be evaluated against that standard.

[Yohan]

Armas is not going to get fired mid season.

Like everyone else, he gets at least two transfer windows. I hate the Serie A/Brazilian ridiculous firing a manager every couple of weeks

[MikeForbes]

I am very interested to see what Armas is gonna do with a healthy lineup. A lot of the youth Armas promised to play have already seen their minutes cut and it is probably gonna continue that way with Osorio and Pozuelo returning soon. Shaffelburg and Priso are likely the only guys who will continue to see regular-ish minutes.

[GuelphStorm2007]

Im okay with Armas, we are in the transition stage, I honestly believe TFC will be a force to reckon with next season . right now this team kind of reminds me of the 2015 team

[Areathrasher]

Lads, he's fucking shite

[jloome]

Lads, he's fucking shite

Starting to look that way. No offence, little tactical inspiration, poor lineup choices.

We won every statistical battle tonight except total tackles and yet never looked like an offensive threat until we threw everything at them in the last five.

Our attacking strategy seems to be "pump it into the corner, hope someone picks up junk in the box."

[reggie]

i wonder where this club would be with vanney at the helm with these players

[MikeForbes]

Still makes no sense why Curtis and Manning picked a manager that did not fit the group of players we have. I know the press is all the rage right now, especially because of the success of Leeds. But, a coach of a similar philosophy to Vanney should of been the move.

The makeup of this team is to maintain possession and create chances. The midfield of Bradley/Osorio/Delgado worked so well because each had a clearly defined role, now they are all running around trying to cover for each other when the press is broken.

[MikeForbes]

Another note, sure seems like Armas has gone away from playing the 'Young Gunz'. Shaffelburg is really the only one who has taken his chance and turned it into something. Priso shows flashes. The rest of the kids really need to log heavy minutes somewhere. Especially Nelson.

[portu]

I don’t think Auro has been poor at DM, but he definitely looks out of position in the middle of the pitch. How is Priso still not picking up games? He was decent enough for sure. Now we’ve got a right back playing DM for the first time since his academy days because “he said he played there before”. Delgado, who’s also “played there before” for maybe 100 MLS games is meanwhile sitting on the right wing when Shaff has been playing very well. I’m honestly sure that Delgado playing on the right is related to him playing right back for Chivas USA when he was 18 for a few matches and the very brief experiment Vanney had playing him as a right midfielder about 6 years ago. Bono said in an interview last week that he played a bit of striker in high school - I hope Armas isn’t too tempted by that prospect.

Play the kids right? Wrong.

[ag futbol]

In the next five games we have: Columbus, Orlando, Nashville, Cinci, and DC.

The first two games are tougher but the last three are against what I would describe as true bottom half teams. If we don’t pick up a win in that 5-game stretch, I would fire him.

Nobody survives a run of form like that, going 11 league games with only one win. It more or less indicatives you’ve got a flawed approach as a manager.

[OgtheDim]

Still makes no sense why Curtis and Manning picked a manager that did not fit the group of players we have. ...

I still think Armas was the 3rd or 4th choice. DCU was all in on Armas & starting to negotiate terms - then we swooped in late. Something changed.

[reggie]

In the next five games we have: Columbus, Orlando, Nashville, Cinci, and DC.

The first two games are tougher but the last three are against what I would describe as true bottom half teams. If we don’t pick up a win in that 5-game stretch, I would fire him.

Nobody survives a run of form like that, going 11 league games with only one win. It more or less indicatives you’ve got a flawed approach as a manager.
yefe will probs miss 3 or 4 of those games and who knows how many more friday morning injuries we will get?

[Oldtimer]

I thought you need to have professional licenses in order to coach professionally? Or is that just in Europe ?

CONCACAF doesn't have any such requirements, and it would be implausible to implement any, given the presence in CONCACAF of nations for which such requirements would be a huge barrier.

MLS could require it but they have had a tradition of having coaches from the collegiate system. So it's up to the club.

[portu]

PRO came out last week and said NYC should have been awarded a goal off Bono’s error. We’re lucky to not be on 4 losses. Haven’t seen it anywhere here, so I thought I’d point it out.

[rydermike]

PRO came out last week and said NYC should have been awarded a goal off Bono’s error. We’re lucky to not be on 4 losses. Haven’t seen it anywhere here, so I thought I’d point it out.
Thanks for the heads up.
Here's the article for those who want to see https://www.mlssoccer.com/news/pro-explains-why-nycfc-goal-against-toronto-fc-should-have-stood

https://proreferees.com/2021/05/22/talking-points-goalkeeper-distribution/

I forgot about the Vancouver play. Even more inexcusable that Bono let it happen again

[MightyDM]

The team under Armas has shown glimpses of what might be, like in the Columbus game and Club Leon. Those glimpses are a reason for optimism. But he is an experienced MLS coach, so for me he doesnt get time to settle in the way Vanney did - he needs to hit the ground running. Having a goalie make the same mistake twice isnt acceptable - will be a test of him responding to this.

[TFC/Everton]

I still think Armas was the 3rd or 4th choice. DCU was all in on Armas & starting to negotiate terms - then we swooped in late. Something changed.

I disagree. This was Ali Curtis bringing in a coach he could manage. I believe Armas was his first choice and he found reasons not to bring in anyone else.

[MightyDM]

I disagree. This was Ali Curtis bringing in a coach he could manage. I believe Armas was his first choice and he found reasons not to bring in anyone else.

I don’t know if he was first choice but for sure Viera and Blanc were not real. I tend to agree that Armas is Curtis’s guy and that if he wasn’t fist choice he was damn close to it.

[portu]

I don’t know if he was first choice but for sure Viera and Blanc were not real. I tend to agree that Armas is Curtis’s guy and that if he wasn’t fist choice he was damn close to it.
I think given how the whole Jesse Marsch thing turned out he was looking for someone that would respect hierarchy. Viera and Blanc may well have been part of the process, but there is no way that Ali survives a fundamental dispute with either one of them given their reputations and the potential financial outlay they would require.

[MightyDM]

I think given how the whole Jesse Marsch thing turned out he was looking for someone that would respect hierarchy. Viera and Blanc may well have been part of the process, but there is no way that Ali survives a fundamental dispute with either one of them given their reputations and the potential financial outlay they would require.

Yes, well put.

[ag futbol]

I think given how the whole Jesse Marsch thing turned out he was looking for someone that would respect hierarchy. Viera and Blanc may well have been part of the process, but there is no way that Ali survives a fundamental dispute with either one of them given their reputations and the potential financial outlay they would require.
Wouldn’t surprise me. Shrewd move on his part recently extending his contract. Otherwise, he might be the one in the firing line should this go south.

[spe18]

I think given how the whole Jesse Marsch thing turned out he was looking for someone that would respect hierarchy. Viera and Blanc may well have been part of the process, but there is no way that Ali survives a fundamental dispute with either one of them given their reputations and the potential financial outlay they would require.

It's been suggested that Bill Manning also didn't want Viera and Blanc for the same reasons.

It should also be noted that the team is still only a few games into the season (on top of the fact that the team barely had any pre-season games), and it takes a while for a team to click, especially when you're bringing in a new system (in this case, playing vertically in a press) . It's quite obvious that the finishing still needs work, especially in the final third.

This kinda of reminds me of Aron Winter's first season in charge, where I think (I actually didn't watch Toronto FC, or any sort of soccer except for the world cup at the time) he introduced the "total football" system playing in a 4-3-3 formation, and made many changes to the team. It took a while before the team was able to put it together, and finished with a fair record towards the end of the campaign, though still didn't make the playoffs.

That was bolstered by bringing in 2 high profile DPs during the summer transfer window - Kouvermans & Frings.

Well, this is something the team doesn't have the luxuary have this time around. Infact, you currently have one DP who has been injured since the start of the season (Pozuelo), and another one who often gets injured and just doesn't have the productivity that he once had (Altidore).

Infact Altidore's cap hit of $600,000+ is what I think is really handicapping this team at the moment. In other words, not having the funds available to bring in a more additional needed depth (in addition to the further allocation dollars they've been able to trade for). And we all know that he signed the contract extension well before Armas arrived here.

Heck, I'm wondering if Ali had anything to do with it, or if this was strictly a Manning and/or MLSE board decision.

[portu]

It's been suggested that Bill Manning also didn't want Viera and Blanc for the same reasons.

It should also be noted that the team is still only a few games into the season (on top of the fact that the team barely had any pre-season games), and it takes a while for a team to click, especially when you're bringing in a new system (in this case, playing vertically in a press) . It's quite obvious that the finishing still needs work, especially in the final third.

This kinda of reminds me of Aron Winter's first season in charge, where I think (I actually didn't watch Toronto FC, or any sort of soccer except for the world cup at the time) he introduced the "total football" system playing in a 4-3-3 formation, and made many changes to the team. It took a while before the team was able to put it together, and finished with a fair record towards the end of the campaign, though still didn't make the playoffs.

That was bolstered by bringing in 2 high profile DPs during the summer transfer window - Kouvermans & Frings.

Well, this is something the team doesn't have the luxuary have this time around. Infact, you currently have one DP who has been injured since the start of the season (Pozuelo), and another one who often gets injured and just doesn't have the productivity that he once had (Altidore).

Infact Altidore's cap hit of $600,000+ is what I think is really handicapping this team at the moment. In other words, not having the funds available to bring in a more additional needed depth (in addition to the further allocation dollars they've been able to trade for). And we all know that he signed the contract extension well before Armas arrived here.

Heck, I'm wondering if Ali had anything to do with it, or if this was strictly a Manning and/or MLSE board decision.
Very good points. It’ll be interesting to see the injuries/Jozy contract influence the evaluation of Armas’ performances. He won’t have the benefit of mid-season additions like Winter. The roster is currently stretching the cap and the injuries that are plaguing the team right now will be mirrored over June/July when we lose players to international duty. Soteldo, Oso, Jozy, Ayo, Kemar, Laryea, Okello, Priso, Shaffelburg are all liable to be called up for Copa or Gold Cup.

The international duty and injury stuff has become so significant and recurrent since 2014/15 that you could argue that being adaptable to missing key players is an important quality in managing Toronto FC.

[MightyDM]

I just watched the game on replay on DAZN, with US commentators (I assume the Orlando regulars). They were fair I think. Conclusions for me: Soteldo, Lawrence and the Shaff are the real deal; Bono, Ayo and Omar are struggling. Delgado is out of position and isnt as effective there. Joszy is working very hard but isnt yet a threat - will he be? Bradley immense. Mavinga solid; Richie not what he was last year. Is it the system for him?. Most look like they are really trying to play Armas system but the commentators were very clear that Orlando was playing through it to space behind our high fullbacks and to take advantage of our slow D.

[OgtheDim]

...the commentators were veryclear that Orland was playing through it to space behind our high fullbacks and to take advantage of our slow D.

That pretty much describes their goal. Lawrence, who actually didn't go up that much when at NYRB was high and space behind him left us open on the ensuing cross to their midfielders crashing our 6 yard box.

[Canary10]

I think given how the whole Jesse Marsch thing turned out he was looking for someone that would respect hierarchy. Viera and Blanc may well have been part of the process, but there is no way that Ali survives a fundamental dispute with either one of them given their reputations and the potential financial outlay they would require.

This reminds me of something a very smart leader once told me. There are two kinds of leader: one who hires people under them that they can control and those that hire people smarter than them to make them look good.

[OgtheDim]

This reminds me of something a very smart leader once told me. There are two kinds of leader: one who hires people under them that they can control and those that hire people smarter than them to make them look good.


Some of us hire people smarter then us to make sure everything works well.....but I know what you mean.

[jabbronies]

In fact Altidore's cap hit of $600,000+ is what I think is really handicapping this team at the moment. In other words, not having the funds available to bring in a more additional needed depth (in addition to the further allocation dollars they've been able to trade for). And we all know that he signed the contract extension well before Armas arrived here.



Altidore's cap hit isn't handicapping this team. If his fund were available, we wouldn't be getting depth...we'd be getting another DP striker/attacker. And there is nothing to say that player would have any more luck doing what this entire team has failed to do - score goals.

We are on the lower end of the table when it comes to goals scored. This isn't 1 players fault. it's the entire teams fault.
We are also on the negative end for goal differential. the culprit for that is up for debate - but our players have not adapted to this new system.

Armas is tinkering with the lineup - trying to figure out what exactly he has in terms of pieces (Auro in the midfield is clearly tinkering).
Pretty sure he's been given the time to play around with the lineup as long as by the end of the season we are without a doubt in a playoff position. Let's hope he learns to fail fast and pivot quickly


We're about to embark on the long international break - We won't know until Mid-late July, after the team is fully healthy and have played a consistent string of games to know what this new TFC team actually is. Are they actually organized or just a complete mess?

[MightyDM]

Altidore's cap hit isn't handicapping this team. If his fund were available, we wouldn't be getting depth...we'd be getting another DP striker/attacker. And there is nothing to say that player would have any more luck doing what this entire team has failed to do - score goals.

We are on the lower end of the table when it comes to goals scored. This isn't 1 players fault. it's the entire teams fault.
We are also on the negative end for goal differential. the culprit for that is up for debate - but our players have not adapted to this new system.

Armas is tinkering with the lineup - trying to figure out what exactly he has in terms of pieces (Auro in the midfield is clearly tinkering).
Pretty sure he's been given the time to play around with the lineup as long as by the end of the season we are without a doubt in a playoff position. Let's hope he learns to fail fast and pivot quickly


We're about to embark on the long international break - We won't know until Mid-late July, after the team is fully healthy and have played a consistent string of games to know what this new TFC team actually is. Are they actually organized or just a complete mess?

This is fair but why would you tinker with Auro in that position when we have Marky and Priso needs minutes? Baffling to me. it would be very interesting to hear Armas explain his thinking there.

[OgtheDim]

Team that was unable to score without Seba is unable to score without Poz


(watch to see if the same thing happens in LA if Chicarito goes out)

[jabbronies]

This is fair but why would you tinker with Auro in that position when we have Marky and Priso needs minutes? Baffling to me. it would be very interesting to hear Armas explain his thinking there.

I agree 100%

Marky has made a NT case by playing in the CM position. playing him on the wing is absurd.

I'm assuming he saw Auro's energy and skill moving the ball forward and wanted to see how that translated at the CM position?

I don't agree with it... i really hate it actually. but that;s just my guess.

[Joe Kool]

I agree 100%

Marky has made a NT case by playing in the CM position. playing him on the wing is absurd.

I'm assuming he saw Auro's energy and skill moving the ball forward and wanted to see how that translated at the CM position?

I don't agree with it... i really hate it actually. but that;s just my guess.

Armas said in an interview that Auro was durable and could go the full 90 and has played CM earlier in his career before so it was not necessarily new to him. That is the only explanation I have ever heard from him about Auro as CM. Trying players out of position is fine with preseason but we are not in preseason any more. I am not a fan of how he is doing it.

[MightyDM]

Armas said in an interview that Auro was durable and could go the full 90 and has played CM earlier in his career before so it was not necessarily new to him. That is the only explanation I have ever heard from him about Auro as CM. Trying players out of position is fine with preseason but we are not in preseason any more. I am not a fan of how he is doing it.

Totally reasonable thing for a coach to say if you had injuries etc. but impossible to understand when you have a successful multi year starter in that position(Marky) and an emerging talent (Priso); particularly when Auro is better than Marky at the position Marky is playing and Vice versa. I kind of like Armas, his puppy dog enthusiasm, but this stuff makes no sense to the average fan, so if he wants us inside tell us why we are wrong.

[OgtheDim]

Auro is not a RM. He's not dynamic enough & wants to come inside constantly. We saw this last year when he was RB & Piatti was in front of him - that side got really narrow.

Move Auro to RB, Delgado to CM & Richie to RM would be my suggestion but this group is very stubborn in their thinking - see Bono, DeLeon as AM etc.

[ag futbol]

Team that was unable to score without Seba is unable to score without Poz


(watch to see if the same thing happens in LA if Chicarito goes out)
But LA was awful last year. We were not with essentially the same roster. So if LA needs one player to win, it’s progress. For us, it’s a step backwards. Looking further around the league. Seattle is winning without their best player on the field and Orlando didn’t have any issues on the weekend either.

For sure we look better with Poz but to only be able to get results with him on the field is just an indication of larger issues.

[OgtheDim]

But LA was awful last year. We were not with essentially the same roster. So if LA needs one player to win, it’s progress. For us, it’s a step backwards. Looking further around the league. Seattle is winning without their best player on the field and Orlando didn’t have any issues on the weekend either.

For sure we look better with Poz but to only be able to get results with him on the field is just an indication of larger issues.


I was more noting that we seem to have had this "can not score without that one guy" issue since Seba came - heck, it might go back to Defoe.

That having been said, there are 5 teams with less goals for then us but more points.

[Bushmancan]

Auro is not a RM. He's not dynamic enough & wants to come inside constantly. We saw this last year when he was RB & Piatti was in front of him - that side got really narrow.

Move Auro to RB, Delgado to CM & Richie to RM would be my suggestion but this group is very stubborn in their thinking - see Bono, DeLeon as AM etc.


Exactly and now you have threats on both wings and the middle for Poz when he gets back

[ag futbol]

I was more noting that we seem to have had this "can not score without that one guy" issue since Seba came - heck, it might go back to Defoe.

That having been said, there are 5 teams with less goals for then us but more points.
The points are a little concerning. Certainly at some point this all solidifies and we can no longer ignore the standings. But for now, I’m not all that fussed about that side.

My bigger concern is we have had a few face-plant worthy performances where the team shows very poor organization/ tactics.

Having Poz might pave over some of those issues and take them out of the spotlight. But they still exist even if he’s here. And there will be no championship without fixing things on that front.

[portu]

Armas went from praising Jozy and his role in the dressing room (see: post Leon second leg) to having him train alone.

Also of note, Auro - who is currently playing a role of scrutiny in Armas’ system - says we need to start picking up points regardless of circumstances. The dressing room is getting antsy.

Has he lost the dressing room? Definitely lost Jozy.

[ag futbol]

^ Let’s see how we play. If we roll over and die on the weekend, I think we have our answer.

[jloome]

^ Let’s see how we play. If we roll over and die on the weekend, I think we have our answer.

Our guys are fighters, they won't roll over. The issue will be whether it makes any difference at all.

We'll know if they wane quickly and move onto the back foot that they don't think the system is working.

[PizzaEatingYeti]

Our guys are fighters, they won't roll over.

I would not be so sure at all about this.
It depends... If there are too many TFC squad guys highly disapproving of everything Armas is doing since he's here, and they want him out ASAP (because they consider this for the good of TFC's future), IMO yes, they will rol over!
Don't forget, it's more than enough if for ex. 4 of our starter guys in the next game would be in this situation, to be yet another TFC loss.

[jloome]

Very good points. It’ll be interesting to see the injuries/Jozy contract influence the evaluation of Armas’ performances.

He has the highest value roster in the league, even without Altidore. No excuses there.

[OgtheDim]

He has the highest value roster in the league, even without Altidore. No excuses there.


Highest value is dependent upon spend on the DP's.

Even if we go with the idea that most amount of salary = best available team, our biggest salary has been out for the year so far (spec is Soteldo is paid more but we don't know that yet).

[jloome]

Highest value is dependent upon spend on the DP's.

Even if we go with the idea that most amount of salary = best available team, our biggest salary has been out for the year so far (spec is Soteldo is paid more but we don't know that yet).

So has Seattle's. Hasn't slowed them.

Our talent on paper isn't quite on par with theirs but it's pretty close.

I get what you're saying dude, but five out of eighteen is not just down to roster tightness. The issue is how long do "growing pains" or "tactical shifts" wash, and when does it become Armas' responsibility.

I suspect your earlier comment about giving him the year is correct, if only because Curtis and Manning have to try and shield themselves from criticism from the board for as long as possible, due to their new deals. With COVID throwing the entire biz model for a loop, it'll be easier for them to put it off even if it becomes inevitable.

Right now, we're on a pace to miss the playoffs by double-digit points, so if we come into the second half with no improvement, the pressure will ramp up, I suppose.

[OgtheDim]

Yeh, I've seen enough


Until he's gone, we are not a playoff team

[Smokecell]

#ArmasOut get it trending

[Oldtimer]

Yeh, I've seen enough


Until he's gone, we are not a playoff team

I'm done too. Have Bradley coach the team until we bring in the next coach. This hasn't worked out.

[jimiv]

I'm done too. Have Bradley coach the team until we bring in the next coach. This hasn't worked out.
I agree, time to move on

[Auzzy]

I'm done too. Have Bradley coach the team until we bring in the next coach. This hasn't worked out.

Please not Bradley. Maybe Dichio would do it if it's clear that it's interim.

[OgtheDim]

I'd take Ben Olsen as his way to play & practice & his mindset fits this team better.

[ag futbol]

You know the narrative on this game from the dopes in charge will be “we just need our best players back. Look how much better we play with Pozuelo on the field”

Never mind they are poorly organized and the coach is clearly adding no value.

[Auzzy]

You know the narrative on this game from the dopes in charge will be “we just need our best players back. Look how much better we play with Pozuelo on the field”

Never mind they are poorly organized and the coach is clearly adding no value.

Plus Pozuelo isn't in charge of the defence.

[OgtheDim]

Yeh, I've seen enough


Until he's gone, we are not a playoff team


That second half did not change my mind. Columbus played into our hands - Porter did not adjust when we stopped pressing & started everything going through Poz.


We got 3 weeks to figure this out & we will still be playing & thinking & training in Florida away from home. I don't think Armas is the man. Too many players playing in weird positions & too much inertia with players being kept going when they should be sat down. And the defence is just poor. Other teams can figure out how to play defence - we just can't. And the injuries are being caused for a reason. Not going to go down the Bono/Q thing because Armas isn't going to change that now out of stubborness.

We play Orlando in 3 weeks, in their house, but as a home match. That's a likely loss. Next game is against Cinci - we lose that too & Armas HAS to be fired.

[rydermike]

What will end up happening is the Canadian Championship match will end up happening. TFC will beat Forge and Armas won't be fired because he won a trophy, a single game against a CPL team (or as I'd call it a $20 million payroll beats a $500,000 payroll).

[rydermike]

TFC2 has looked good this season, apart from a 5 minute stint in Game 2 where they gave up 2 goals. They dominated possession with like 70% in their second game. Maybe we can call up the TFC2 coach. If he can coach a possession game, that meshes with our roster of Poz, Oso, Yeff, and co. Then Armas can teach the run and press all game to the teenager filled TFC2 who can handle running.

[jloome]

Poz defends Armas.

https://torontosun.com/sports/soccer/mls/toronto-fc/tfc-star-alejandro-pozuelo-defends-new-coach-chris-armas-following-another-loss

I have sympathy if the players like him, but that doesn't explain the clearly daft tactical choices.

[ElvistheEvilScotsman]

Just realized Armas is our very own Ted Lasso. 🤣

[TFC1986]

#firearmas

[trane]

People are complaining about our attack. And it is fair, clearly. But we are defending like its 2007.

So we have no idea going forward, but at least we are balanced because we also have no idea as to how to defend.

Both speak to a lack of organization and tactics.

And on top of that he has lost Jozy who has been our best 9 ever. And a key to our winning.


I have no idea why he was hired. But I sure know why he should be fired like today. Dichio as intern manager I would be with.

[Fort York Redcoat]

What will end up happening is the Canadian Championship match will end up happening. TFC will beat Forge and Armas won't be fired because he won a trophy, a single game against a CPL team (or as I'd call it a $20 million payroll beats a $500,000 payroll).

We won a trophy yesterday.


But I think you're not wrong that Armas is safe for the season but for Covid excuses.

[trane]

They may have that excuse.

But the problem is wasting this season will mean having to start a step behind next season.

With the international brake it is a perfect time to make a change. Unless they see something that no one else does.

[Bushmancan]

They may have that excuse.

But the problem is wasting this season will mean having to start a step behind next season.

With the international brake it is a perfect time to make a change. Unless they see something that no one else does.

To be clear, I thought the team needed a change and will still say it was Vanney's time to move on or change tactics (he wouldn't do the latter so he did the former). I would normally be patient, but with this system, I find it impossible not to blame most of these thigh injuries on the coaching tactics, staff and organization not anticipating it (Solteldo has thrown me over the edge). Time to make another move. #outoftime

[Ultra & Proud]

And on top of that he has lost Jozy who has been our best 9 ever. And a key to our winning.

I have no idea why he was hired. But I sure know why he should be fired like today. Dichio as intern manager I would be with.

Not anymore Jozy isn't. His days are done. We need him go e to get in a legit, healthy DP 9.

And no to Dichio. First, he has no experience, he wasn't interested in it, and the guy they should have hired in the first place never got a job. Go get Pinedo and get things back on track.

[OgtheDim]

Just realized Armas is our very own Ted Lasso. 藍


Ted does a way better job at actually coaching to success - and I assume also in making cookies.

[OgtheDim]

I want to note something here.

Caleb Porter barely got his team 3 points yesterday. He put out the right approach to beat the way TFC was likely going to be set up. But, once again, Porter did not react to what was going on in game all that well. He has a history of that.

My issue with Armas is he does that lack of reaction for games on end & it will cost us points & likely mean we will not make the playoffs. And, I think most coaches in this league will, when confronted with us playing like we did in the second half yesterday, adjust and not let us win.

I can be convinced I am wrong by this team turning things around. Right now I'm not sure they can.

[noimpactinmtl]

Ted does a way better job at actually coaching to success - and I assume also in making cookies.

Ted Lasso does the most important part of coaching extremely well; social competence.

I’ve yet to see this with Armas.

[PaceyWinger]

The more I hear Armas justify his thinking in the media the more I am siding with Altidore. If I'm this disgusted by his rational sitting on my couch I can only imagine how mad I'd be if this man was about to end my career.

[Bushmancan]

The more I hear Armas justify his thinking in the media the more I am siding with Altidore. If I'm this disgusted by his rational sitting on my couch I can only imagine how mad I'd be if this man was about to end my career.

Exactly this, maybe Jozy has been a prick but let one of your legends then go in good grace. Putting him in the penalty box is pathetic. If Jozy has been really bad, then be transparent to the supporters. A bust up in practice is not enough... there is way too much speculation, either way. And if I saw another star player injured, I would be pretty pissed as well. Does anyone know if the bust up was before or after Sotledo's injury.

The BS is that the front office is just letting this simmer.

[jloome]

I want to note something here.

Caleb Porter barely got his team 3 points yesterday. He put out the right approach to beat the way TFC was likely going to be set up. But, once again, Porter did not react to what was going on in game all that well. He has a history of that.

My issue with Armas is he does that lack of reaction for games on end & it will cost us points & likely mean we will not make the playoffs. And, I think most coaches in this league will, when confronted with us playing like we did in the second half yesterday, adjust and not let us win.

I can be convinced I am wrong by this team turning things around. Right now I'm not sure they can.

I'd hasten to say the laissez-faire tactical approaches of players and coaches who came up in MLS 1.0 is becoming more and more apparent. It's very MLS 1.0 to think players can play anywhere, because back then they often had to. In the U.S. college system they often have to play more than one role.

Olsen did it in D.C., Marriner did it with us, Porter has both used guys out of position and habitually doesn't adapt. Maybe Im seeing a pattern that isn't really there, but coaches who came up in this league and the NCAA generally seem to be a step behind. I'd say Bruce Arena is the big exception, although he a) weirdly started as a lacrosse coach and did that for years before soccer, so maybe he's just a brilliant motivator and b) had most of his success in the first generation.

When Bob Bradley was at Swansea, fans there were perplexed by why he kept switching formations and positions. He was obviously a strong character and good motivator, but his team had no consistency.

I just refuse to look at the cohort example of world football, where players rarely switch positions -- but usually do so permanently to stave off a shortcoming -- and think "they've got it all wrong. It doesn't matter if a player is so grooved in his position that it's second nature; he can think his way through it all at game speed, without recent experience factoring."

Fucking bollocks. Total bollocks. It's just arrogance.

[rydermike]

It's one thing to use players out of position mid-game in an emergency when there's injuries/red cards etc and no readily available sub for that spot. It's another thing when you have better options and ignore them.

If we were in a situation where there was three subs (not five like now), Delgado had already been subbed out, and then Bradley gets injured in the 70th and on your bench you only have Zavaleta, Morrow, Auro, and Westberg left, then sure throw Auro on as DM. That's the only time Auro should be playing CM over RB, even though he's done a decent job there. When you do it as the starting lineup with Delgado/Priso/Okello/Osorio/Bradley all available for multiple games, it makes zero sense.

[trane]

A note about switching positions. Sure some players and some positions can be switched, because of the commonalities or roles and/ the individual characteristics of a player. Like a Dm to a CB or a hard tackling defensively responsible CM ti DM. But putting a small speedy player used to running up the wings, to DM does not seem a natural switch. I guess is that he wanted him for his speed and stamina, and auro is a defensive player, but it does not seem to fit and there has been no growth.

[jloome]

A note about switching positions. Sure some players and some positions can be switched, because of the commonalities or roles and/ the individual characteristics of a player. Like a Dm to a CB or a hard tackling defensively responsible CM ti DM. But putting a small speedy player used to running up the wings, to DM does not seem a natural switch. I guess is that he wanted him for his speed and stamina, and auro is a defensive player, but it does not seem to fit and there has been no growth.

i suspect his motives Are deeper but still flawed. They want a defensive high player on that side to imbalance the other team. If you cough the ball up wide on a press, it forces central players to come over and help.

Problematically, it’s far too one dimensional and robs you of a key point of attack. It’s an occasional strategy, if that’s the aim, not something that can underpin a team’s offensive approach.

[trane]

^ At least you saw a deeper logic. You are probably right, but as you said that is an occasional strategy.

I was also going to note, in my other comment, even if he proves adequate defensively at DM spot, once he gets the ball being in the middle of the park having to distribute is again a very different position then being on the wing.

[jloome]

^ At least you saw a deeper logic. You are probably right, but as you said that is an occasional strategy.

I was also going to note, in my other comment, even if he proves adequate defensively at DM spot, once he gets the ball being in the middle of the park having to distribute is again a very different position then being on the wing.

good point.

Mark Delgado is a top notch distributor but it’s clear his comfort zone is so much greater centrally, when he has options in all directions rather than working in from the sideline.

Plus it’s just limiting his skill set to use him there, while forcing him into speed and offensive roles he has hardly touched during his career. It’s just not sensible, not in-season.

It’s like they think fans have no nuance to their positions. Of course most of these guys are talented enough to retrain or move to another spot, but that doesn’t make it the percentage move.

[Oldtimer]

[QUOTE=rydermike;1935927]It's one thing to use players out of position mid-game in an emergency when there's injuries/red cards etc and no readily available sub for that spot. It's another thing when you have better options and ignore them.

If we were in a situation where there was three subs (not five like now), Delgado had already been subbed out, and then Bradley gets injured in the 70th and on your bench you only have Zavaleta, Morrow, Auro, and Westberg left, then sure throw Auro on as DM. That's the only time Auro should be playing CM over RB, even though he's done a decent job there. When you do it as the starting lineup with Delgado/Priso/Okello/Osorio/Bradley all available for multiple games, it makes zero sense.[/QUOTE}

It seems intuitively obvious.

[Slick]

So after thinking things through and knowing Manning, unfortunately we're gonna wait a long time before we see an Armas firing.

Manning believes in giving his coaches time. One very specific example comes to mind, is following TFCs early and embarrassing playoff exit in 2015, Vanney was very close to getting fired, and Manning was very clear in his first and year end interview, that he actually thought about it (firing Vanney). What he said at the time was, he wanted to avoid a revolving door with coaches, and preferred to follow his experience at RSL with Kreiss.

I believe his measuring stick for a manager is a year and a half. It's gonna be a long 18 months and we're not gonna have the patience.

[rydermike]

Reflecting on that quote he gave to Michael Singh about the positioning decision, it really made me think that Armas has a video game mentality (play the players with the top overall ratings regardless of position). The line that got me was about why make Laryea and Auro compete against each other, chuck them both in somewhere even if they don't fit.

So to me, it feels like he ranks his players individually, decides on the top 11 and plucks them into his static formation, even though they're not in correct positions, they're top XI.

A good team is worth more than the sum of its parts. When a team is worth less than the sum of its parts (as is happening) that's not good or effective and leads to failure. That 15th player may contribute more to winning than the 11th because of the positional need. Plus it's also effective, when you have a quality player available to come in fresh at the end for a better player who is just tired, instead of looking at the substitute bench and seeing nothing there. Imagine having a Laryea available to come in and replace Auro on the flank in the 70th minute of a tie game. Instead of both of them being tired from playing every minute of every game, they form a platoon at starts and subs (maybe 50/50 starts, maybe 75/25 starts, whatever but you have them fairly fresh all season - compared to last year when our roster had no legs) and Richie can come in and RUN around tired opposition legs. It's funny that Armas referenced Pep leaving Aguero and Gabriel Jesus as subs - when that's the strategy there so Pep can change the formation and insert an elite sub to alter the game with fresh quality. Instead, Armas is left with no quality and tired players used ineffectively without adjustments

[OgtheDim]

About that question & quote.

Its being made a lot of, for good reason.


I'm struggling to think of another market where a journo would have asked that in depth a tactics question. Like, would somebody in CBus land be asking Caleb Porter afterwards, "So TFC got close in that second half & your guys didn't seem to have an answer. What were you thinking tactically at the time and did you try to make adjustments?"

I can imagine the reaction a journo asking Adrian Heath that question would get....



Not sure Armas would have had that sort of question asked in NYRB land.

[Yohan]

How many Vanney out people are missing Vanney now? ;)

On serious note, I preach patience, and think every manager, no matter how crappy he looks at the start, deserve 2 transfer windows to show what he's got. I hate Serie A for the fact that teams fire managers every 2 weeks it seems like.

But on Armas, boy, he's needs to show a lot if he's going to win my confidence. I will say that not playing home games at BMO Field and too many injuries to key players is probably the biggest reasons why I'm willing to be more patient with Armas.

Please no Benny Olsen. He's like another Armas. If TFC is going to go for another manager, park a truck full of cash to Robin Fraser or Oscar Pareja while they might still be tempted by TFC. But I suspect Ali Curtis wants his own man, someone who will do whatever he tells him to do as manager. He's not going to deal with another Mike Petke situation. Which probably means, no international manager.

[MightyDM]

I am still giving the benefit of the doubt to Armas, but am very troubled. He is an experienced coach - not a rookie like Greg Vanney was when he started - and it isn't working. One game against Club Leon and one against Columbus; everything else has been varying degrees of disorganized and inept, with strange roster decisions and contradictory positions ie "we are going to give youth a chance" "Ralph Priso is progressing well" " and "we needed someone on the field that could play so he (Auro) got the nod instead of Priso." As everyone has said, imposing a system that doesnt fit the players isnt ideal, certainly not for a team that is one season removed from playing in a championship, and where that system exposes existing weaknesses (ie slow CB's) and doesn't build on existing strengths (ie possession with Poz, Oso, MB etc). A good system does the opposite.

[rydermike]

About that question & quote.

Its being made a lot of, for good reason.


I'm struggling to think of another market where a journo would have asked that in depth a tactics question. Like, would somebody in CBus land be asking Caleb Porter afterwards, "So TFC got close in that second half & your guys didn't seem to have an answer. What were you thinking tactically at the time and did you try to make adjustments?"

I can imagine the reaction a journo asking Adrian Heath that question would get....



Not sure Armas would have had that sort of question asked in NYRB land.

Regardless of whether or not another journalist would've asked that question to another manager, the way Armas responded was ridiculous. Singh gave him an easy out when he included "was he the best option at centre mid".

All Armas had to say was "Auro is great at short passing and maintaining possession in link up plays as he rarely turns the ball over and we felt that playing him at DM would be great as a link up play being the connection in possession from the defense to the attackers as well as utilizing his defensive abilities to cover both flanks. Unfortunately, we fell into a hole, so we decided to revert to a more traditional approach. I still think he's a great option at that position, but evidently as a team there are a few areas we still need to work on"

Instead, he felt the need to give a high and mighty I'm smarter than you, talk down to Singh response. A confident manager can defend his choices, admit errors, without getting defensive and condescending like Armas got. All he needed was a couple thought out sentences, but instead he reacted negatively to it. It's the nature of sport that any time you lose, people will critique your decisions. If you can't handle that, then its not the role for you.

[MikeForbes]

If anything, this has made us all realize that Vanney was actually a really good manager. Even if we all hated that 80th minute sub to bring on Ciman/Moor/Zavs. He wasn't just carried by DP's like some have suggested in the past.

[OgtheDim]

Regardless of whether or not another journalist would've asked that question to another manager, the way Armas responded was ridiculous. Singh gave him an easy out when he included "was he the best option at centre mid".

All Armas had to say was "Auro is great at short passing and maintaining possession in link up plays as he rarely turns the ball over and we felt that playing him at DM would be great as a link up play being the connection in possession from the defense to the attackers as well as utilizing his defensive abilities to cover both flanks. Unfortunately, we fell into a hole, so we decided to revert to a more traditional approach. I still think he's a great option at that position, but evidently as a team there are a few areas we still need to work on"

Instead, he felt the need to give a high and mighty I'm smarter than you, talk down to Singh response. A confident manager can defend his choices, admit errors, without getting defensive and condescending like Armas got. All he needed was a couple thought out sentences, but instead he reacted negatively to it. It's the nature of sport that any time you lose, people will critique your decisions. If you can't handle that, then its not the role for you.

Oh, I agree with that. But I can pretty much count on 1 hand the amount of MLS coaches who would know how to answer that with tact & not reach for the eyeroll or the outrage

Vanney, Fraser, Losado & Schmetzer


There may be media markets in this league where journos think questions like that but nobody asks.

[Ultra & Proud]

How many Vanney out people are missing Vanney now? ;)

Please no Benny Olsen. He's like another Armas. If TFC is going to go for another manager, park a truck full of cash to Robin Fraser or Oscar Pareja while they might still be tempted by TFC. But I suspect Ali Curtis wants his own man, someone who will do whatever he tells him to do as manager. He's not going to deal with another Mike Petke situation. Which probably means, no international manager.

Well I was okay with changing Vanney but not for Armas, Olsen, or Viera. I figured all of them were different versions of the same disaster although I gave Armas a chance as I learned from being a Vanney out guy from the day he was appointed until he showed how good he was the next season.

I thought back during our manager "hunt" and still think today that Gonzalo Pineda has the makings of a good MLS manager. He at least derserves a shot based on the experience & success he's been part of in Seattle.

[DavemTFC]

https://www.mlssoccer.com/news/armchair-analyst-reds-reeling-busio-levels-up-and-more-from-week-7

Doyle talked about us a lot in his weekend column. Generally nothing different than the criticisms we've seen on this board and elsewhere, with the overall view that Armas is exposing our weaknesses and hiding our strengths. He does a good job of essentially saying wtf is this coach doing in the most diplomatic way. This jumped out at me as another fundamental reason the Delgado at RM thing is stupid:


The above has happened while Toronto have been getting less of the ball. Last year — when they almost won the Supporters’ Shield, remember — they were fourth in the league at 55.3 percent possession. This year they’re 14th at 48.8 percent, which, yes, means they have to spend more time defending without the ball. And no, this team’s not well-suited to defending without the ball. (Also, having less of the ball means fewer chances for Laryea to overlap, which defeats the purpose of the Delgado and Auro positional switches, and if you are picturing the “Galaxy Brain” meme right now you are surely not the only one).

[Canary10]

https://www.mlssoccer.com/news/armchair-analyst-reds-reeling-busio-levels-up-and-more-from-week-7

Doyle talked about us a lot in his weekend column. Generally nothing different than the criticisms we've seen on this board and elsewhere, with the overall view that Armas is exposing our weaknesses and hiding our strengths. He does a good job of essentially saying wtf is this coach doing in the most diplomatic way. This jumped out at me as another fundamental reason the Delgado at RM thing is stupid:

That was a good article. Well worth a read.

[rydermike]

That was a good article. Well worth a read.

I just realized that Bono was chilling at center on that corner because of the video on that article. Means it wasn't even a positional blunder by our defenders because Armas was obviously okay with it because he wasn't screaming for Bono and the defenders to get back. Why on earth is our keeper 50 yards out of his net, at most he should be 25 yards (or a little past the 18). Diaz could've chipped him from his own half if he wanted to. I also didn't realize Auro was at the top of the 18, I thought he was around 30-35 yards, not right at the 18 on the corner. Completely idiotic.
https://i.imgur.com/oXsooNY.png

[Canary10]

I just realized that Bono was chilling at center on that corner because of the video on that article. Means it wasn't even a positional blunder by our defenders because Armas was obviously okay with it because he wasn't screaming for Bono to get back. Why on earth is our keeper 50 yards out of his net, at most he should be 25 yards (or a little past the 18). Diaz could've chipped him from his own half if he wanted to. I also didn't realize Auro was at the top of the 18, I thought he was around 30-35 yards, not right at the 18 on the corner. Completely idiotic.

https://i.imgur.com/2MEXtdj.png

That corner was something else. No reason to drop a goal like that.

[rydermike]

That corner was something else. No reason to drop a goal like that.

That should've been the question Singh asked. Why did you think it was smart to toss 10 guys in the box in the 11th minute of a tie game.

Plus how many times can Bradley hit a TFC player on a corner this season like 10% of the time? Most predictable goal ever

[reggie]

he should get fired jus that formation alone,but i guess if pep can do it so can our gym teacher,so mavinga plays 45 on saturday but is on his way to play for congo,i guess he was jus tired not injured

[jloome]

That was a good article. Well worth a read.

It's clear this direction is utterly failing. we're not a team built to press but we have a great lineup. so why press all the time?

At least leave it for lost-ball recoveries. Half the teams on the planet seem to manage that.

[Canary10]

That should've been the question Singh asked. Why did you think it was smart to toss 10 guys in the box in the 11th minute of a tie game.

Plus how many times can Bradley hit a TFC player on a corner this season like 10% of the time? Most predictable goal ever

It was an unorthodox move to be sure.

[leedsandTFC]

he should get fired for comparing himself to pep after guiding the most expensive squad in MLS into 3rd last in the east.

[Canary10]

he should get fired for comparing himself to pep after guiding the most expensive squad in MLS into 3rd last in the east.

I would also consider firing him for that corner. If that happened on my masters team there would be a lot of finger pointing and blaming as to why no one was back.

[OgtheDim]

Armas will be judged based on making the playoffs or not - everything else is tea leaves.

[DinamoTFC]

Armas will be judged based on making the playoffs or not - everything else is tea leaves.

The only thing about waiting until playoffs is you waste a whole season if it doesn't go well. Ideally we would love ourselves a version of Tuchel by the mid season mark.

[jloome]

The only thing about waiting until playoffs is you waste a whole season if it doesn't go well. Ideally we would love ourselves a version of Tuchel by the mid season mark.

Soteldo’s manager at Santos just quit. Extreme wishful thinking, I realize...

[ag futbol]

Soteldo’s manager at Santos just quit. Extreme wishful thinking, I realize...
Honestly, even an uninspiring Ben Olsen would be an improvement.

This team can win more games than it does right now with someone who just stays out of the way.

[trane]

What the fuck?????? He was lucky he did not get chipped. This seriously feels like 2007-2010.

[jloome]

What the fuck?????? He was lucky he did not get chipped. This seriously feels like 2007-2010.

The astonishing thing about that is they wouldn't even need to chip. The goalie is the last man back, so breaking that offside trap isn't necessary.

They could've outleted the ball to someone in the central channel to shuttle it up to Diaz and they still would have had space to score easily, because there's no way our guy even gets back quickly enough to put him off side.

Unbelievable. The most basic schoolboy instruction to have a man back to hold the player onside. Wow.

[spe18]

The astonishing thing about that is they wouldn't even need to chip. The goalie is the last man back, so breaking that offside trap isn't necessary.

They could've outleted the ball to someone in the central channel to shuttle it up to Diaz and they still would have had space to score easily, because there's no way our guy even gets back quickly enough to put him off side.

Unbelievable. The most basic schoolboy instruction to have a man back to hold the player onside. Wow.

That goal actually sort of reminds me of the one scored by Drogba in that knockout round game vs. Montreal Impact in 2015.

Where it was something like 7 or 8 tfc players that were ball watching, allowing Bernier to lob it to a wide open Drogba to make it 3-0 for the bad guys.

I'm pretty sure there were folks that were saying that too was schoolboy stuff. And guess who was the coach on that night? And guess what people were saying what should happen with the coaching position after that game?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QP_IM8hTA9g

[ag futbol]

That goal actually sort of reminds me of the one scored by Drogba in that knockout round game vs. Montreal Impact in 2015.

Where it was something like 7 or 8 tfc players that were ball watching, allowing Bernier to lob it to a wide open Drogba to make it 3-0 for the bad guys.

I'm pretty sure there were folks that were saying that too was schoolboy stuff. And guess who was the coach on that night? And guess what people were saying what should happen with the coaching position after that game?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QP_IM8hTA9g
Okay, I guess ... but context:

Being down 2-0 in a playoff game and likely pinching forward in a must win situation

vs.

Being tied zero-zero and pinching forward in the first half when there is still everything to play for.

[rydermike]

Okay, I guess ... but context:

Being down 2-0 in a playoff game and likely pinching forward in a must win situation

vs.

Being tied zero-zero and pinching forward in the first half when there is still everything to play for.

It's not like they were even trying some super creative play that required numbers and creative positioning. It was a regular corner to the middle of the box for a header

[leedsandTFC]

I would also consider firing him for that corner. If that happened on my masters team there would be a lot of finger pointing and blaming as to why no one was back.

reminded me of that demba ba goal vs man utd earlier this season.

both completely inexplicable.

[Areathrasher]

reminded me of that demba ba goal vs man utd earlier this season.

both completely inexplicable.

First thing I thought of when it happened. Pretty much a carbon copy.

[portu]

The Armas pressure is definitely going to deflate with the international break. It will be interesting to see if he basically has a fresh slate from June 19 or if the pressure immediately returns given the emotional nature of these kinds of sentiments.

Still think July 7 is the latest time at which a determination can be made. If he’s showing promise he stays but if he’s shit he deserves the boot. July 7 is the date where this is no longer about Armas and instead about Curtis. Same principle as Armas and Bono, at a certain point the superior must assume full responsibility.

[MightyDM]

Good points. For me, the first game back is almost going to determine his immediate fate. Of after three weeks they look disorganized and easy to play against, people will be up in arms. If commentators like Doyle are already saying, in effect, the coaching and tactics at TFC are crap, the criticism will all come flooding back.

Even if the first game is OK, he won’t get a pass until there is a consistent run of good form. He has put his future at risk with strange tactics and personnel decisions that have been noticed all around the league, not just by us.

He might well keep his job. But not his credibility.

[MightyDM]

A Bradley quote from Molinaro article on Priso:

“You have to really understand football to understand what he brings to the game and what he brings to our team in terms of balance, in terms of sniffing plays out, coming away with tackles and loose balls.“

Here because it puts Armas decisions into (bad) perspective. (Edit for clarity)

[Ben - D.O.W.]

“You have to really understand football to understand...“

Edit - apparently wasn't an Armas quote. Still over him.

[portu]

From Molinaro article on Priso:

“You have to really understand football to understand what he brings to the game and what he brings to our team in terms of balance, in terms of sniffing plays out, coming away with tackles and loose balls.“
This is a Bradley comment

[jabbronies]

This is a Bradley comment

I figured it was probably more a shot at Armas. Playing Auro over Priso.

[portu]

Good points. For me, the first game back is almost going to determine his immediate fate. Of after three weeks they look disorganized and easy to play against, people will be up in arms. If commentators like Doyle are already saying, in effect, the coaching and tactics at TFC are crap, the criticism will all come flooding back.

Even if the first game is OK, he won’t get a pass until there is a consistent run of good form. He has put his future at risk with strange tactics and personnel decisions that have been noticed all around the league, not just by us.

He might well keep his job. But not his credibility.
One win can completely alter perception though. It’s amazing how much good will was generated by beating Columbus. I feel like he could lose the next four matches 1 nil, win the fifth match and all pressure would be alleviated.

All I want is for Curtis to give some clear expectations for this club under Armas when he speaks to Molinaro this week. Let us know what your measuring stick is and don’t piss about with the metrics. Be clear that one win from six and two from 11 is unacceptable and that the club wants to see results by X date. Show that you’re actually competent and be transparent, man.

Club goals and results are entirely incompatible at the moment, so something has to budge. You can’t say you want to be a winner and actively prop up a losing system.

[jloome]

One win can completely alter perception though. It’s amazing how much good will was generated by beating Columbus. I feel like he could lose the next four matches 1 nil, win the fifth match and all pressure would be alleviated.

All I want is for Curtis to give some clear expectations for this club under Armas when he speaks to Molinaro this week. Let us know what your measuring stick is and don’t piss about with the metrics. Be clear that one win from six and two from 11 is unacceptable and that the club wants to see results by X date. Show that you’re actually competent and be transparent, man.

Club goals and results are entirely incompatible at the moment, so something has to budge. You can’t say you want to be a winner and actively prop up a losing system.

I’m obviously nervous about Armas but I’m also acutely aware we’re seeing an adjustment period, trying new things, with multiple top players injured. I haven’t lost hope he’ll turn it around, but only because there are other scenarios than him being all-around terrible that are as plausible.

I suspect some of this, as with John Carver, is a fairly hyperactive, athletic nature that makes him seem like a gung-ho sports bro and not thoughtful. But that’s my judging someone I don’t know well enough on some indicators.

Maybe he is inflexible, shortsighted and arrogant. Or maybe he’s found himself in two jobs where those above him have some heavy Demands.

he was working to the Red Bull system there and was reportedly frustrated with inflexibility. It’s possible he’s being told by Ali to stick to the high press, to showcase Nelson and to showcase Richie At right back. That would’ve forced him to move Auro inside or unfairly drop him to get lawrence into the team.

Who knows what the internal politics are. If the players love the guy, we at least need to see how he does with a healthy squad and a few months of adjustment.

So I’m holding off on #Armasout until at
least the second half.

I suspect Chris Cummins was a pretty good coach. But having a shit front office ruined him. Same to some degree with Winter, who had MARINER watching his back, the guy who wanted his job.

[MightyDM]

I’m obviously nervous about Armas but I’m also acutely aware we’re seeing an adjustment period, trying new things, with multiple top players injured. I haven’t lost hope he’ll turn it around, but only because there are other scenarios than him being all-around terrible that are as plausible.

I suspect some of this, as with John Carver, is a fairly hyperactive, athletic nature that makes him seem like a gung-ho sports bro and not thoughtful. But that’s my judging someone I don’t know well enough on some indicators.

Maybe he is inflexible, shortsighted and arrogant. Or maybe he’s found himself in two jobs where those above him have some heavy Demands.

he was working to the Red Bull system there and was reportedly frustrated with inflexibility. It’s possible he’s being told by Ali to stick to the high press, to showcase Nelson and to showcase Richie At right back. That would’ve forced him to move Auro inside or unfairly drop him to get lawrence into the team.

Who knows what the internal politics are. If the players love the guy, we at least need to see how he does with a healthy squad and a few months of adjustment.

So I’m holding off on #Armasout until at
least the second half.

I suspect Chris Cummins was a pretty good coach. But having a shit front office ruined him. Same to some degree with Winter, who had MARINER watching his back, the guy who wanted his job.

Very fair. But I am worried indeed. If he actually spoke about his decisions in a way that showed competence it would help give hope that the mess on the field is a transition and an experiment; but when the best writer in MLS (Doyle) essentially echoes the criticisms on these boards it becomes very hard to give the benefit of the doubt.

[Bushmancan]

I figured it was probably more a shot at Armas. Playing Auro over Priso.


Thats how i saw it...

[MightyDM]

Thats how i saw it...

That’s how I meant it - to be clear Bradley was interview after a game when Priso played. He wasn’t taking a shot at Armas, I was.

[Initial B]

I'm still on the fence about Armas. This year has been odd due to COVID, but that can't be an excuse as Vanney had similar issues in 2020 and at least made the play-off with a similar roster to what Armas has now. I'm just going to accept whatever happens this year, but if we're seeing the same issues in the first 7 games of 2022, Armas should be gone no question.

[portu]

Very fair. But I am worried indeed. If he actually spoke about his decisions in a way that showed competence it would help give hope that the mess on the field is a transition and an experiment; but when the best writer in MLS (Doyle) essentially echoes the criticisms on these boards it becomes very hard to give the benefit of the doubt.
Yeah, the concerns we all carry about the direction of the team are legitimate. I understand not wanting to gear decisions towards fan sentiment (one of the things Bez wanted to change when he came in). They shouldn’t fire a guy just because I get pissed on this board. However, refusing to acknowledge that there are obvious issues and acting as if we all don’t have eyes is gaslighting your fan base.

Armas calling Bono ‘top tier’ and the fuck you “Block out the noise” tweet prior to Alex bouncing the ball off a guys head into our own goal after completely fumbling an easy shot is probably a good example. You know the right way to deal with that? What they did afterward when they put him on a 50 minute podcast, instead of just saying fuck you he’s an all star.

Everyone sees the shitshow. They can’t act as if it’s not happening before our eyes. Don’t fire the guy because the fans say so, but recognize this is a football club that requires communication and fan engagement to be successful. Some questions being asked of management are legitimate and should be answered, instead of ignored.

[trane]

Okay, I guess ... but context:

Being down 2-0 in a playoff game and likely pinching forward in a must win situation

vs.

Being tied zero-zero and pinching forward in the first half when there is still everything to play for.

Exactly.

[trane]

I’m obviously nervous about Armas but I’m also acutely aware we’re seeing an adjustment period, trying new things, with multiple top players injured. I haven’t lost hope he’ll turn it around, but only because there are other scenarios than him being all-around terrible that are as plausible.

I suspect some of this, as with John Carver, is a fairly hyperactive, athletic nature that makes him seem like a gung-ho sports bro and not thoughtful. But that’s my judging someone I don’t know well enough on some indicators.

Maybe he is inflexible, shortsighted and arrogant. Or maybe he’s found himself in two jobs where those above him have some heavy Demands.

he was working to the Red Bull system there and was reportedly frustrated with inflexibility. It’s possible he’s being told by Ali to stick to the high press, to showcase Nelson and to showcase Richie At right back. That would’ve forced him to move Auro inside or unfairly drop him to get lawrence into the team.

Who knows what the internal politics are. If the players love the guy, we at least need to see how he does with a healthy squad and a few months of adjustment.

So I’m holding off on #Armasout until at
least the second half.

I suspect Chris Cummins was a pretty good coach. But having a shit front office ruined him. Same to some degree with Winter, who had MARINER watching his back, the guy who wanted his job.

Very reasonable position. The problem is that he has shown/said little to indicate that things will get better. Again for me it is not so much the results, those I can accept with the present situation being what it is, but the on field errors.

But he certainly could turn it around, but at this time it is hard to see how. You do want to give every manager a fair chance, but once you realize he is not the one, sooner you move on the better. It is obviously a very hard call to make when that moment is.

[trane]

Yeah, the concerns we all carry about the direction of the team are legitimate. I understand not wanting to gear decisions towards fan sentiment (one of the things Bez wanted to change when he came in). They shouldn’t fire a guy just because I get pissed on this board. However, refusing to acknowledge that there are obvious issues and acting as if we all don’t have eyes is gaslighting your fan base.

Armas calling Bono ‘top tier’ and the fuck you “Block out the noise” tweet prior to Alex bouncing the ball off a guys head into our own goal after completely fumbling an easy shot is probably a good example. You know the right way to deal with that? What they did afterward when they put him on a 50 minute podcast, instead of just saying fuck you he’s an all star.

Everyone sees the shitshow. They can’t act as if it’s not happening before our eyes. Don’t fire the guy because the fans say so, but recognize this is a football club that requires communication and fan engagement to be successful. Some questions being asked of management are legitimate and should be answered, instead of ignored.

Exactly.

[ag futbol]

What confuses me is, at the start of the season we had some semblance of pragmatic tactics and reasonably good results (or in the case of the CCL, outright over achieving).

Then, we move away from that approach. Dump the youth players for the old-tired options everyone was sick of Vanney playing (Endoh, DeLeon). Go gonzo for some press strategy that makes us look like a bunch of amateurs and doesn’t suit the roster. And to top it all off, play guys out of position and refuse to rotate your bumbling goal keeper.

What the heck happened? He started with something people wanted to see and then threw it in the trash. Now he’s stuck on a formula that doesn’t work but can’t change.

[Yohan]

What confuses me is, at the start of the season we had some semblance of pragmatic tactics and reasonably good results (or in the case of the CCL, outright over achieving).

Then, we move away from that approach. Dump the youth players for the old-tired options everyone was sick of Vanney playing (Endoh, DeLeon). Go gonzo for some press strategy that makes us look like a bunch of amateurs and doesn’t suit the roster. And to top it all off, play guys out of position and refuse to rotate your bumbling goal keeper.

What the heck happened? He started with something people wanted to see and then threw it in the trash. Now he’s stuck on a formula that doesn’t work but can’t change.
Because the perception is that the youths aren't giving consistency. The veteran players look to be more consistent.

When under pressure, managers go for the 'sure thing'. Hard to know what you will get from the kids, who will make a lot of mistakes.

Nelson seems lost, Okello drifting in and out of games, Shaff seems better as a sub, not a starter, Singh seems more consistent but has his mistakes. Ayo got a goal last game, but he's look off coming back from injury. Priso is the only kid who looks like he should be a starter.

https://www.mlssoccer.com/news/one-statistic-that-explains-every-mls-eastern-conference-team-in-2021-so-far


Playing without Alejandro Pozuelo (https://www.mlssoccer.com/players/alejandro-pozuelo), Chris Armas’ Toronto FC (https://www.mlssoccer.com/clubs/toronto-fc/)have looked stagnant offensively. They’ve generated the seventh-fewest xG and the sixth-fewest shots per game in the league. It’s not just Pozuelo’s absence that’s limiting Toronto’s attack, as their lack of off-ball runs hurts their goal-scoring chances. Toronto have only put together 132.6 off-ball runs per game, which is the sixth-fewest in MLS. And that 132.6 number is down from 172.3 off-ball runs per game last year. Things need to start moving in Toronto.

TFC will get better with Pozuelo back on offence, but there's something off on the offence.

[Oldtimer]

When Vanney started out as coach it was not inspiring. Ugly losses, questionable lineup and substitution choices and inflexibility added to a lack of first team experience made many of us, myself included, think "here we go again."

What started to change my mind about him, and gave hope was his keen desire to learn, a certain humility about his own abilities, and as time developed a willingness to adjust his tactics in a pragmatic way. Ultimately he developed into a good coach with decent tactical ability because of these qualities and he led TFC to an historic treble.

I don't see those qualities in Armas. He does not seem a student or humble, rather its "don't question him, you wouldn't question Pep," as if you can, without irony, mention his name in the same breath as one of football's great managers. He shows that same arrogance in how he treats reporters.

Vanney quite openly said he studied Pep (and others). Armas thinks he already IS Pep. I'm sorry, wearing a coach shirt doesn't automatically make you a tactical genius. I don't have a lot of hope we're going to see a lot of improvement.

[Oldtimer]

Talking tactics, using a simple high press has to be the most overused strategy in MLS. It works if you are Liverpool and have the world class players to pull it off. It doesn't work so well with MLS journeymen who lack the same ability to stop a counter attack. I can't count how many times TFC under Vanney defeated simple high press teams with superior possession. Too many times.

It's niave to think that you don't need to take into account the types of players that are available to MLS teams when you think strategy. It isn't a video game where you manage a top world club in the game.

[OgtheDim]

I think Armas is not the way forward but if the team is going to give him time, lets see if the stand offishness is maintained once the team returns to Toronto.

Kloke spoke on the WTR podcast & one point he stated is none of the journalists have actually met Chris Armas or had a friendly chat with him, like journos covering the team at the Training ground would do.

Assumin the team comes back to Toronto later this month or in July, lets see if Armas is still as awkward in September.

[ag futbol]

[SIZE=2]
Because the perception is that the youths aren't giving consistency. The veteran players look to be more consistent.

When under pressure, managers go for the 'sure thing'. Hard to know what you will get from the kids, who will make a lot of mistakes.

Nelson seems lost, Okello drifting in and out of games, Shaff seems better as a sub, not a starter, Singh seems more consistent but has his mistakes. Ayo got a goal last game, but he's look off coming back from injury. Priso is the only kid who looks like he should be a starter.

TFC will get better with Pozuelo back on offence, but there's something off on the offence.
Of course we’re going to look better with Pozuelo in the lineup, he’s the league MVP. But that shouldn’t be the point. Is the coach actually organizing this team in a way that gets the most out of it or is he stubbornly clinging to what he knows with a high press? So far, I would argue it’s the latter.

I don’t want to get into the youth side of things too much because that was only meant to be one aspect of my previous post. Most youth players who have seen their role reduced, justifiably. However, when the lineup is hamstrung, we need to stop fielding someone like DeLeon at AM or Endoh out wide. This is nothing more than accepting mediocrity and trying not to lose rather than actually attempting to win. Playing youth in those situations makes a lot of sense.

[MightyDM]

One other thing that is nagging at me - we have a terrible record and the last several games he played DeLeon Delgado and Auro out of position. We couldn’t have really gotten worse results if OKello and Priso played their natural positions - easing pressure on these players playing out of position - and they would have improved. That was a stated aim at the beginning of the season. What happened?

EDIT: I see previous post makes similar point. We were writing at same time!

[ensco]

Kloke spoke on the WTR podcast & one point he stated is none of the journalists have actually met Chris Armas or had a friendly chat with him, like journos covering the team at the Training ground would do.

This is interesting, and highlights a different problem.

I don't give a rat's ass about whether the manager is spending time with journalists, it says nothing to me about whether Armas is any good, and frankly it just leads to co-opting the the journos. This says more to me about our journalist problem than our manager problem. Frankly, I think it's a checkmark in the plus category for Armas.

The team's communication problems do not belong to the manager, they belong 100% to Manning and Curtis. Top management calls all of this (and if they don’t it's because they are abdicating). They tell him what to do, or permit it.

Armas is naturally going to try to hide injuries etc, all managers do. The price for doing nothing but putting out Pravda style videos and hiding everything should be paid by others.

[Ultra & Proud]

One other thing that is nagging at me - we have a terrible record and the last several games he played DeLeon Delgado and Auro out of position. We couldn’t have really gotten worse results if OKello and Priso played their natural positions - easing pressure on these players playing out of position - and they would have improved. That was a stated aim at the beginning of the season. What happened?


I think we would have been 100% better if we used Okello & Priso (and Westberg) and played everyone else in their proper positions.

[jloome]

Talking tactics, using a simple high press has to be the most overused strategy in MLS. It works if you are Liverpool and have the world class players to pull it off. It doesn't work so well with MLS journeymen who lack the same ability to stop a counter attack. I can't count how many times TFC under Vanney defeated simple high press teams with superior possession. Too many times.

It's niave to think that you don't need to take into account the types of players that are available to MLS teams when you think strategy. It isn't a video game where you manage a top world club in the game.

This is a decent point. When we had our whole roster healthy and playing well together, we crushed Philly, despite them being basically the same team we sparred with (and later lost to) the rest of the way. That was possession football picking the press apart.

[jloome]

I think we would have been 100% better if we used Okello & Priso (and Westberg) and played everyone else in their proper positions.

Yeah, I'm not sure what his issue with Okello is, he's being excellent when in. He has a tendency to get too far ahead of the play, but his strengths far outweigh any naivete.

[ag futbol]

One other thing that is nagging at me - we have a terrible record and the last several games he played DeLeon Delgado and Auro out of position. We couldn’t have really gotten worse results if OKello and Priso played their natural positions - easing pressure on these players playing out of position - and they would have improved. That was a stated aim at the beginning of the season. What happened?

EDIT: I see previous post makes similar point. We were writing at same time!
Great minds think alike? Haha


Yeah, I'm not sure what his issue with Okello is, he's being excellent when in. He has a tendency to get too far ahead of the play, but his strengths far outweigh any naivete.
I thought when we played him as a support striker of sorts in a 4-4-2 he was great. Kept the ability to do all the playmaking but took away a chunk of his defensive responsibilities. He does seem to gas and fade out of games early but with 5 subs that should hardly be a stumbling block.

He was very close to breaking through on the score sheet (and unfairly had a legit goal called offside). For a young player like that who’s been on the fringes of the roster forever, a couple contributions to the score sheet can go miles for boosting his confidence. And then, you never know what’s possible.

[MightyDM]

The more I think about the youth point, raised by ag futbol a few posts ago, the more it is confounding. Okello and Priso need minutes to develop and they were next up in the depth chart, yet Armas (and the club) decided to move veterans around out of position instead of giving them a chance to develop. If anything, they would be more effective in a high press given youth etc. Really hard one to fathom and would have been really interesting to hear Armas talk about his thought process there.

EDIT: confounding because it doesn't appear to make sense from a line up perspective AND because of their vows of youth etc at the start of the season.

[OgtheDim]

EVERY team wants to play the Yutes.....until they need a win.

Only teams I know who persist with youth are Philly (although a lot of those guys are gone), NYRB & Dallas - mostly because their better people often are youth.

[ag futbol]

EVERY team wants to play the Yutes.....until they need a win.

Only teams I know who persist with youth are Philly (although a lot of those guys are gone), NYRB & Dallas - mostly because their better people often are youth.
Completely get your point and acknowledge most managers think this way. But in this case, isn’t the practicality of it that we pulled the youth players and the results got worse? That’s why it’s confusing.

Playing Nick DeLeon at AM expecting a win is the equivalent of trying to meet your future wife at the Brass Rail. People have tried and repeatedly insisted it’s possible, but I’ve yet to see it.

[portu]

Westberg essentially calls out Armas. Feels the club is entirely different and not in a good way. Says “He just wants to survive the season”. Style of play doesn’t match our players. Perhaps veiled comment about some coaches still stuck in a reductive style of play in spite of the calibre of players and level of investment.

http://www.actufoot.com/national/quentin-westberg-toronto-au-pied-du-mur/ (http://www.actufoot.com/national/quentin-westberg-toronto-au-pied-du-mur/)

[spe18]

Okay, I guess ... but context:

Being down 2-0 in a playoff game and likely pinching forward in a must win situation

vs.

Being tied zero-zero and pinching forward in the first half when there is still everything to play for.

Nethertheless though, there were 7 or 8 tfc players that were ball watching when they were by their own goal, thus leaving one of the greatest strikers to have played the game wide open for essentially a tap in goal.

[MikeForbes]

MLS twitter has caught wind of the Q interview. Armas is fast turning us into a joke.

[OgtheDim]

Yeh, I don't think the bunker mentality down in Orlando is going to help much with this discussion either. The Jozy situation is kinda something people will let management get away with doing something. Going after Q though....that's not going to get a major amount of people ticked but it will stick in the craw for an organization that says it cares about its players.

Regardless, the calculus remains the same.

In the minds of Manning & Curtis, can Armas get this team to the playoffs? Until it becomes apparent to them the playoffs will not happen, Armas will remain.

[Slick]

Playing Nick DeLeon at AM expecting a win is the equivalent of trying to meet your future wife at the Brass Rail.

This comment had me in stitches.

[DavemTFC]

Westberg essentially calls out Armas. Feels the club is entirely different and not in a good way. Says “He just wants to survive the season”. Style of play doesn’t match our players. Perhaps veiled comment about some coaches still stuck in a reductive style of play in spite of the calibre of players and level of investment.

http://www.actufoot.com/national/quentin-westberg-toronto-au-pied-du-mur/ (http://www.actufoot.com/national/quentin-westberg-toronto-au-pied-du-mur/)

The bit that came before it is even more damning and makes it clear that quote isn't in the slightest bit out of context. "Right now, I don't know where we're going. We went from a possession-based style of play to a vertical, high-pressing system with a team full of ball-players."

This isn't really a good look for Q either, but I've now gone from #ArmasOut to #ArmasOutNOW

WTR has a fuller translation of the TFC-related bits: https://www.wakingthered.com/2021/6/2/22465866/quentin-westberg-opens-up-in-an-exclusive-interview-with-french-media

[Blindside16]

The bit that came before it is even more damning and makes it clear that quote isn't in the slightest bit out of context. "Right now, I don't know where we're going. We went from a possession-based style of play to a vertical, high-pressing system with a team full of ball-players."

This isn't really a good look for Q either, but I've now gone from #ArmasOut to #ArmasOutNOW

WTR has a fuller translation of the TFC-related bits: https://www.wakingthered.com/2021/6/2/22465866/quentin-westberg-opens-up-in-an-exclusive-interview-with-french-media


Although it is true that it does not look good for Q giving that interview, I think he is beyond frustrated at the moment. He essential lost his starting for no reason, at least not one that any of us can find, and no matter the amount of mistakes that Bono makes Q cannot even get a sniff at a start. We went from narrowly missing winning our second supporters shield to having serious questions being raised about if we can even make the playoffs in less than 7 months with little to no personnel changes in terms of roster. That is completely ridiculous in my opinion.

I think Armas has completely shattered the atmosphere inside the locker room and is trying to shoe horn his vision down everyone's throat rather than adapt. I think he has to go before he completely rips the team apart

[rydermike]

MLS twitter has caught wind of the Q interview. Armas is fast turning us into a joke.
Did I miss something? I didnt see anything on MLS twitter

[ag futbol]

I’m not sure this really puts him in the firing line.

Feels like a lot of things that could be plausibly denied if asked. But to those in the know a clear subtext of “my coach is an idiot”.

Very clever, and one could argue classically French.