TFC Mount Rushmore

[ensco]

MLS Extratime is doing a bit on the "Mount Rushmore" for each MLS club, eg the four guys who symbolise the club who are carved into the rock on a mountainside.

So the first three are obvious... Bradley, Gio, Jozy....

But who is fourth?

They had a spirited debate about that...

(what is Mt Rushmore? here you go: https://www.nps.gov/moru/index.htm)

[613reppingTFC]

could Vanney be considered in the discussions?

[WestStandGeoff]

Ashton Morgan?

[jabbronies]

Nick Garcia; Maxim Usanov; Mista; Raivis Hscanovics;

[Redcoe15]

Danny Dichio.

[Redcoe15]

Dwayne DeRosario.

[pdogg]

Dichio, DeRosario and Bradley would be a good representation for the history of the club. The first face of the franchise, the first star, and the captain that led us to the treble. The fourth would be tough between many deserving players (and possible some to come) - Osorio hasn't had as dramatic an impact as Gio, but he's been with the team quite a long time now. We're in a period of low roster turnover (on the starting 10) compared to previous eras of the team, so many consistent contributors. Tough tough call.

[OgtheDim]

4th & 5th

DeRo & Danny K



But I agree, it really should include Vanney.

[MikeForbes]

I said Giovinco, Bradley, Altidore, Vanney.

[rydermike]

I know they'll put Dichio, but I am not a Dichio fan. I know he had the first goal and all that, but apart from that he was a very meh player to me. Doesn't score that goal, we don't talk about him.

I put

Bradley, Giovinco, Vazquez, and De Rosario

Another couple years, Pozuelo replaces Vazquez

[rydermike]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EUEF7dWWAAM6nII?format=jpg&name=large

De Rosario made Houston's https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EUEvi_JXgAAjRwy?format=jpg&name=large

[Dave F]

Gio Bradley Jozy VV not even debatable You are all over rating Vanney Danny D really did not do much for TFC

[ensco]

Gio Bradley Jozy VV not even debatable You are all over rating Vanney Danny D really did not do much for TFC


I know they'll put Dichio, but I am not a Dichio fan. I know he had the first goal and all that, but apart from that he was a very meh player to me. Doesn't score that goal, we don't talk about him.



Dichio played for poor teams, and got hurt a lot (sound familiar?) ....but his combination of first touch and physical play was as good as Jozy's. His shooting accuracy is still the best I have seen on TFC.

You are both required to spend 5 minutes watching this, and then come back on here and say you were sorry.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-NfJCveHdA

[ag futbol]

Nick Garcia; Maxim Usanov; Mista; Raivis Hscanovics;
No Andrea Lombardo? This isn’t a real list.

[TFC07]

Not a player, but Tim Leiweke should be 4th person. Without him, we wouldn't get MLSE investing big on TFC to save the club that was dying. There wouldn't be no Gio, Bradley and Jozy if Leiweke wasn't here.

[ensco]

Not a player, but Tim Leiweke should be 4th person. Without him, we wouldn't get MLSE investing big on TFC to save the club that was dying. There wouldn't be no Gio, Bradley and Jozy if Leiweke wasn't here.

This is a true thing.

Same for the Raptors btw.

[Initial B]

Honestly, I can't really fault their choices. I agree with them that as a Canadian team, at least one of the players should be Canadian and Ororio, as part of the Treble team, ticks the boxes.

Just as a side note, they put DeRo on the Houston Dynamo Mount Rushmore, so I don't feel too bad about leaving him off the TFC one.

[TomLawrence]

Man said Dichio is as good as Jozy and was actually serious.

Guy was average in one of the worst teams of all time.

The four chosen are correct. The 3 superstars and Oso the local legend.

[levyashin]

Leiweke,Bez,Vanney,————- on the management side.
Gio,Bradley,Jozy with Victor taking us over the top honourable mention Osorio.

[ensco]

Surprised no one has said this, I could see the case for Justin Morrow. He was MLS All XI, was probably the best LB in the league in 2016 and 2017, and never really gets his due for his contribution to the 2017 team (which is close to that of VV).

I do like how good Oso has been in playoffs and CCL, and of course he is a homegrown. No problem with that.

I don't think Dichio would be the choice, but he's somewhere in the conversation, for me.

[ensco]

These Dichio takes are just wrong.

At TFC his goals per 90 were .37, and at TFC Jozy's has been .6, so they are not close. That doesn't even include Jozy's incredible playoff record.

But the differential in service to them both is striking. DD got less than .97 shots per game off, Jozy gets 1.99 per game. That is a massive differential. (Some of that may be Jozy's ability to create, you need to go further into the advance stats to figure that out...)

The efficiency is interesting too. DD had 14 goals on 51 shots (27%), and Jozy has 56 goals on 232 shots (24%).

Jozy isn't the benchmark anyway. Jozy when healthy is one of the 10 best players in league history.

Watch that Dichio video (the crap quality doesn't help, I know, there may be better somewhere). Dichio was a dominant player, when healthy. Also that team wasn't that bad when healthy - nobody seems to remember this. TFC were a near 500 team that had won 5 of 7 and was on a roll mid way through 2007, before they collapsed.

Dichio was pretty damn good, when he played. Problem was that Danny was pretty much done (ie too far gone with injuries) by the time he got here.

Like I said, Oso and Morrow would be ahead of him. But that's a tribute to those two guys, not a slag on Danny.

[GuelphStorm2007]

My four would be Giovinco, Jozy, Bradley, Dichio

[Initial B]

Surprised no one has said this, I could see the case for Justin Morrow. He was MLS All XI, was probably the best LB in the league in 2016 and 2017, and never really gets his due for his contribution to the 2017 team (which is close to that of VV).

I do like how good Oso has been in playoffs and CCL, and of course he is a homegrown. No problem with that.

I don't think Dichio would be the choice, but he's somewhere in the conversation, for me.
My son thinks Morrow should be in the conversation for Rushmore as well, so you're not alone, ensco. As for Dichio, I'd probably include him on the cult favourite list because I'm not sure if Dunfield deserves that spot.

[rydermike]

Dichio played for poor teams, and got hurt a lot (sound familiar?) ....but his combination of first touch and physical play was as good as Jozy's. His shooting accuracy is still the best I have seen on TFC.

You are both required to spend 5 minutes watching this, and then come back on here and say you were sorry.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-NfJCveHdA

Besides the horrible video quality, what I saw was a tall striker who can score goals inside the six yard box, mostly when there's an empty net and a shorter defender. So that makes him better than Ben Spencer. There were what 2 distance goals that looked more like bad goalkeeping than good shots (the loop over the keeper looks like he just kicked it and it happened to go in - the other one was well placed but I feel like should be saved by a quality keeper). Never saw him control the ball and the make a play. Basically a ping ponger, ball comes to him and he hits it. Without the first goal in TFC history, he'd be a forgotten player.

[OgtheDim]

Cult favourite top 5? I look at that as 5 under the radar people that changed the path of the team

Dichio (he worked hard and plugged away in an era when not many here seemed to give a darn)

Will Johnson (for that goal in Vancouver which I think changed that season around but also his midfield bite and for bringing the "this is our house" to life)

Julio Cesar (saw what a modern keeper can be)

Caldwell (saw what a decent professional CB could be after SOOO long without one)

Moor (the backbone defensive general of the best team in MLS ever)

[jabbronies]

No Andrea Lombardo? This isn’t a real list.

The real list is;

Andy Welsh, Chad Barrett, Dan Gargan, Jacob Peterson

[jabbronies]

Not a player, but Tim Leiweke should be 4th person. Without him, we wouldn't get MLSE investing big on TFC to save the club that was dying. There wouldn't be no Gio, Bradley and Jozy if Leiweke wasn't here.


I keep telling people this - he was the catalyst that provide TFC and Raptors with Championships. The Leafs were always going to be the last of this bunch to win a chip - we'll see what they do in the next 2-3 years.

[Voodooman]

The real list is;

Andy Welsh, Chad Barrett, Dan Gargan, Jacob Peterson

Puts Gargan ahead of Nick Garcia....questionable

[MightyDM]

Dichio played for poor teams, and got hurt a lot (sound familiar?) ....but his combination of first touch and physical play was as good as Jozy's. His shooting accuracy is still the best I have seen on TFC.

You are both required to spend 5 minutes watching this, and then come back on here and say you were sorry.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-NfJCveHdA

Legend. plus he already looks like he is made out of granite...

[jabbronies]

These Dichio takes are just wrong.

At TFC his goals per 90 were .37, and at TFC Jozy's has been .6, so they are not close. That doesn't even include Jozy's incredible playoff record.

But the differential in service to them both is striking. DD got less than .97 shots per game off, Jozy gets 1.99 per game. That is a massive differential. (Some of that may be Jozy's ability to create, you need to go further into the advance stats to figure that out...)

The efficiency is interesting too. DD had 14 goals on 51 shots (27%), and Jozy has 56 goals on 232 shots (24%).

Jozy isn't the benchmark anyway. Jozy when healthy is one of the 10 best players in league history.

Watch that Dichio video (the crap quality doesn't help, I know, there may be better somewhere). Dichio was a dominant player, when healthy. Also that team wasn't that bad when healthy - nobody seems to remember this. TFC were a near 500 team that had won 5 of 7 and was on a roll mid way through 2007, before they collapsed.

Dichio was pretty damn good, when he played. Problem was that Danny was pretty much done (ie too far gone with injuries) by the time he got here.

Like I said, Oso and Morrow would be ahead of him. But that's a tribute to those two guys, not a slag on Danny.


Hot take - A healthy Dichio was a top 20 player in MLS at the time.

[OgtheDim]

The quality of play in 2007 across MLS was....not good. I can distinctly remember that a poor pass out of play was so routine that commentators didn't even mention it - 1/3 passes longer then 10 yards went incomplete.

Our most technically gifted player was Carl Robinson.

Heck, look at European league quality of play in 2007 and you can see how much the world has changed. Current TFC would be Champions League group stage in 2003.

Dichio was technically proficient in MLS for the time - a banging forward who could cushion the ball and knew what force would do what with the ball.


Osorio would have been an all star & Pozuelo a God.

[Joe Kool]

The quality of play in 2007 across MLS was....not good. I can distinctly remember that a poor pass out of play was so routine that commentators didn't even mention it - 1/3 passes longer then 10 yards went incomplete.

Our most technically gifted player was Carl Robinson.

Heck, look at European league quality of play in 2007 and you can see how much the world has changed. Current TFC would be Champions League group stage in 2003.

Dichio was technically proficient in MLS for the time - a banging forward who could cushion the ball and knew what force would do what with the ball.


Osorio would have been an all star & Pozuelo a God.

Good post. In 2007 there were so many long balls and then the teams counting on the athletic guys to outrun and outwork the defenders to the balls. It was ugly and I only watched MLS because Toronto had a team but the atmosphere at the stadium with you fine folks was fun so I was there. In travelling with my son and his team playing in competitive tournaments in the US I still find that "kick the ball over the defenders and try to outrun them" is still a main way that lots of youth teams from the US play. Our team always had fast defenders so it never worked against us because we got to the ball first so it was basically turning over the ball to us again and again but kinda sad to see that trend continuing at the youth level there. Good to see that MLS is evolving though over time.

[ensco]

The quality of play in 2007 across MLS was....not good. I can distinctly remember that a poor pass out of play was so routine that commentators didn't even mention it - 1/3 passes longer then 10 yards went incomplete.

Our most technically gifted player was Carl Robinson.

Heck, look at European league quality of play in 2007 and you can see how much the world has changed. Current TFC would be Champions League group stage in 2003.

Dichio was technically proficient in MLS for the time - a banging forward who could cushion the ball and knew what force would do what with the ball.

Osorio would have been an all star & Pozuelo a God.

The payroll of TFC in 2007 was USD 2M (vs USD 25M the last couple of years) so any comparison re caliber of play is absurd. Of course it is tons better now.

It's just depressing to see the volume of "Dichio was crap" takes.

Maybe it's only a few people but it used to be a widely held core understanding of all the dozens of active posters here that a healthy Dichio was a very good player.

To see this be an argument here.... Makes me think I don't belong here anymore. I have better uses of my time.

[kottisinick]

I get the whole what if it wasn’t dd but let’s remember after he left he stayed and made Toronto his home. Also coaches the youth and does a lot of community work. Maybe cult hero’s don’t have to be all about what they just do on the pitch but what they do in the city and for the ppl too.

To me I think his New England goal that send waves of ppl onto the pitch was a cooler experience than the first goal. It was like we had just won the cup

[MightyDM]

The payroll of TFC in 2007 was USD 2M (vs USD 25M the last couple of years) so any comparison re caliber of play is absurd. Of course it is tons better now.

It's just depressing to see the volume of "Dichio was crap" takes.

Maybe it's only a few people but it used to be a widely held core understanding of all the dozens of active posters here that a healthy Dichio was a very good player.

To see this be an argument here.... Makes me think I don't belong here anymore. I have better uses of my time.

Don’t leave us...

DD is a legend. That cannot change, he just is. He is our cult hero. Maybe not Rushmore, but cult hero for certain.

Reading the stuff from a small group here on here is like hearing Pence say Trump never downplayed the Coronavirus, right after watching him do it for ten weeks. Complete revision.

For a long time this club had nothing but Danny Dichio as our cult hero - not competence, not good players, not even the same coach from year to year. All we really had was Danny.

If you don’t know that, shame on you.

[OgtheDim]

The payroll of TFC in 2007 was USD 2M (vs USD 25M the last couple of years) so any comparison re caliber of play is absurd. Of course it is tons better now.

It's just depressing to see the volume of "Dichio was crap" takes.

Maybe it's only a few people but it used to be a widely held core understanding of all the dozens of active posters here that a healthy Dichio was a very good player.

To see this be an argument here.... Makes me think I don't belong here anymore. I have better uses of my time.

FWIW, I agree with you on Dichio being a good player for his time. To many people these days don't get the difference in quality between then and now.

Dichio was a VERY good player in what MLS was at the time on a very BAD team for what MLS was at the time. People who can't see that are not worth worrying about.

Peace to you and yours ensco. Take care.

[jabbronies]

Sometimes recognition isn't about being the best, it's about being the first.

He was the first goal scorer ever for this team (and last goal of its inaugural season)
He was the first player to earn a red card - and if you were there that day - people were fucking loving him for it
He got goal of the week 3 times that first season

and if you remember that season at all, you know he should've been our first player of the week mid season, (something like 3 goals in 2 games) but was beat out by Blanco (1G 3A)

As much as you hate him - He was the first star on this team. He was the first player people looked to during the first season of existence. He was the first player that supporters - hell the whole stadium - sang his name in the stands and in the pubs.

You put him on the wall because of the historical importance he is to the club.

[Oldtimer]

[moderation note] I've cleaned up the thread to remove discussion spurred by a now-banned troll with multiple accounts.

[ag futbol]

[moderation note] I've cleaned up the thread to remove discussion spurred by a now-banned troll with multiple accounts.
Interesting. Would have figured we were long clear of these types.

I though we did a good enough job of making each other angry without the need for sock accounts, lol.

[Jack]

Interesting. Would have figured we were long clear of these types.

I though we did a good enough job of making each other angry without the need for sock accounts, lol.

There's always someone who thinks they're being original g:D

[ensco]

Don’t leave us...






Peace to you and yours ensco. Take care.

Just seeing these now. Thanks guys! Same to you.

[glaze]

If Dichio does not score the first goal, he has no place in this discussion.
It's like people in hockey who argue Paul Henderson should be in thr HOF.
For the old generation of year one supporters, he may hold a special place. But if you're putting your best ever TFC lineup on field, he doesn't come close.
Obviously you have Bradley, Jozy and Seba on there. So it just comes down to a 4th spot.

[jabbronies]

If Dichio does not score the first goal, he has no place in this discussion.
It's like people in hockey who argue Paul Henderson should be in thr HOF.
For the old generation of year one supporters, he may hold a special place. But if you're putting your best ever TFC lineup on field, he doesn't come close.
Obviously you have Bradley, Jozy and Seba on there. So it just comes down to a 4th spot.


I don't know about Jozy - he's just another good player - what has he done that would hold up 10, 15, 30 years down the road? There will be other good players that come along as well.

Some would argue Dero over Jozy - eventually it could be Poz over Jozy...

[woolly]

I fundamentally disagree with the people that leave Dichio off the list. Not only was he pretty much the only glimmer of talent we had to watch for the first few years but let's also consider;

How does Dichio fare paired up with Seba and VV on a Championship level team? I would argue that he would score nearly as many as Altidore (no goals off a solo run, for sure) but might have beaten Frei in the cup game.

Conversely, how does Jozy look under Mo and playing on a plastic pitch? I expect he would have a single injury shortened year with decent results and be traded.

That's my 2 cents.