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trane
08-05-2008, 11:14 AM
I am a Carver supporter, and I do not dislike Mo. I like what Carver is trying to do and I like his passion, and methods. Mo I am less sure of, he seems to deliver, but often it seems that he does so to late.

However, despite my support of Carver, if we do not make the playoffs I hope that the entire football operations side gets replaced.

Carts
08-05-2008, 11:16 AM
How do I put this... I COMPLETELY DISAGREE...

Its Carver's first year, with a team that had a huge turnover... If we are to fire coaches and managers this quickly, we'll NEVER be successfull...

Building a winner takes time... That doesn't mean we have to be content with losing, but success does not happen overnight...

Carts...

Stryker
08-05-2008, 11:18 AM
:out:

Bars92
08-05-2008, 11:18 AM
What is this, the Leafs thread?

LucaGol
08-05-2008, 11:21 AM
"How long do we give Mo and Carver to build a top of the table team?", should be the real focus of the thread.

I would say 2 more years after the conclusion of this one. 1 if the team performs as poorly as this year..next season (aka performing poorly by achieving no trophies in the CCL, lack of offense, lack of leadership, poor tactics...etc).

Mo seems to be on a decent track with the stockpiling of picks...and the turf issue has really hindered his ability to sign people. On the other hand...his scope for talent searching is too limited. He definitely needs to bring in a South American scout full time. Just hire somone who's already down there. Same goes for Africa. Let's be creative here.

Carver is shortening his leash by his own doing with his constant tirades and belittling of MLS opposition. He needs to learn the league a bit better and revise his tactics for the players he has and the opposition he faces.

ilikemusic
08-05-2008, 11:22 AM
What is this, the Leafs thread?

I like how pretty well whatever opinion is expressed it is guaranteed someone is going to make reference to the Maple Leafs.

Person A - 'Mo has to go!'
Person B - 'What is this the Leafs thread? Have patience, the team needs time''

or

Person A - 'Have patience. The team needs to grow and it takes time'
Person B - 'Lets not be Leaf fans and sit by accepting mediocrity!'

Shaughno
08-05-2008, 11:22 AM
Mo said he had a 5 year plan in the beginning. I said I would hold him to that plan.

I stick by my words. If you go firing your coach/gm/etc every year or two you'll never have the confidence or chemistry that gets built up over time and the relationships that coaches build with the players.

trane
08-05-2008, 11:24 AM
It is not a leafs thread, I am not a hockey fan. But at some point you have to recognize that maybe you are building something the wrong way. While I trully like Carver, the reality is that the results are the bottom line. If we do not make the playoffs we are clearly not headed in the right direction, and we have to reset and start over. Making the playoffs in this league should not be very hard. It is a shit league, a have decent roster, with a half decent system should do it. I think that we have both at this time. However, results speak for themsleves. You have to set goal and when they are not met you have to suffer the consequences. The goal is the playoffs, if it is not met there has to be consequences.


Shaughno, I would agree with you, if at the end of the day there was overall growth and improvemnt, the sesults at this point do not point to that. [ Again I like the system and the players better then last years, but the result are prety damn similar to similar for my liking]

adampz
08-05-2008, 11:24 AM
In your title, by sweeping the house clean, do you mean tearing down bmo, making a new better stadium with grass and a roof?

Loyal
08-05-2008, 11:27 AM
In the history of team sports, what team was a "world beater" after 1-1/2 years?

Shaughno
08-05-2008, 11:28 AM
^^ Chicago Fire won the Supporters Shield and MLS Cup in their first season I do belive. ;)

trane
08-05-2008, 11:28 AM
^ I am not expecting a world beater, just improvement in the results.

LucaGol
08-05-2008, 11:29 AM
It is not a leafs thread, I am not a hockey fan. But at some point you have to recognize that maybe you are building something the wrong way. While I trully like Carver, the reality is that the results are the bottom line. If we do not make the playoffs we are clearly not headed in the right direction, and we have to reset and start over. Making the playoffs in this league should not be very hard. It is a shit league, a have decent roster, with a half decent system should do it. I think that we have both at this time. However, results speak for themsleves. You have to set goal and when they are not met you have to suffer the consequences. The goal is the playoffs, if it is not met there has to be consequences.


Shaughno, I would agree with you, if at the end of the day there was overall growth and improvemnt, the sesults at this point do not point to that. [ Again I like the system and the players better then last years, but the result are prety damn similar to similar for my liking]

Ironically, through this statement....you seem to be making the same mistake as John Carver has.

The MLS is not a shit league where playoffs is guaranteed. We've been taught that lesson time and again. Take just last game for example....FC Dallas...a struggling team in the West...came onto our park...and basically schooled us.

Every team, every game has to be taken with the utmost seriousness and preparation..same goes for USL competition.

You start to make an ass of yourself when you start taking this for granted by underestimating opposition.

nascarguy
08-05-2008, 11:31 AM
What is this, the Leafs thread?

yeah i know

trane
08-05-2008, 11:37 AM
Ironically, through this statement....you seem to be making the same mistake as John Carver has.

The MLS is not a shit league where playoffs is guaranteed. We've been taught that lesson time and again. Take just last game for example....FC Dallas...a struggling team in the West...came onto our park...and basically schooled us.

Every team, every game has to be taken with the utmost seriousness and preparation..same goes for USL competition.

You start to make an ass of yourself when you start taking this for granted by underestimating opposition.


Bullshit. I see it with my eyes every week it is a shit league, you can convince yourself overwise all you want but in reality, it is a poorly played game. No game nor any team shoudl be ever be taken for granted, but shity parity should not be taken for quality. This is not a quality league. Anyway I do not give a shit about LA and NY nor any other city. I give a shit about Toronto. I give a shit about putting a competitive team on the field to represent our city. We did so at home in the early part of the season, we have failed to do so on the road in 1 1/2 years, and we have been disapointg at home in the past strech. I will tell you what I see. The truth is the truth. The MLS is shit, and despite this we are failing to compete. It is disapointing.

Carver is not making a mistake in his approach, but his team is failing to deliver on the field. Unfotunalty he will have to pay the price if this continues. That is the reality of being a coach.

AL-MO
08-05-2008, 11:38 AM
If this team continues to play like absolute crap, then I seriously think change needs to be considered.

nascarguy
08-05-2008, 11:39 AM
Mo said he had a 5 year plan in the beginning. I said I would hold him to that plan.

I stick by my words. If you go firing your coach/gm/etc every year or two you'll never have the confidence or chemistry that gets built up over time and the relationships that coaches build with the players.

yeah it's only the 2nd year

Kickit09
08-05-2008, 11:41 AM
In the history of team sports, what team was a "world beater" after 1-1/2 years?


ok, how about just a MLS and USL beater. is that too much to ask :noidea:

Kooper
08-05-2008, 11:43 AM
What is this, the Leafs thread?

One reason why the Leafs continue to suck is that the fans refuse to let them rebuild. They must play their best team on the night or face the wrath of the call in shows and message boards. The fans and management have no long term view. They have had 3 losing seasons without developing a single worthwhile prospect.

Mo and Carver have had 2 losing seasons but have developed the team well. Edu is coming along as is Wynne, Valez and Ricketts while Smith will need some more time. We have drafted well to get 3 first rounders next year and traded for Ibbee. For an expansion team they have done very well.

Now stop your whining and face facts, we won't win the Cup next year either. It takes time and patience, if you don't have either stop wasting our time on the message boards. Go follow Bareclona, Real Madrid, Manchester United, Chelsea or Bayern Munich if you demand results right away. You are supporting an expansion team and it comes with the territory.

We shouldn't be demanding a cup right away all we should expect is improvement and by any measure we have had that this season.

trane
08-05-2008, 11:46 AM
^ Who asked for them to win the Cup? The goal is making the playoffs. They have to achieve it.

MisterMacphisto
08-05-2008, 11:47 AM
In your title, by sweeping the house clean, do you mean tearing down bmo, making a new better stadium with grass and a roof?

I blame a lot of our problems on our rubber field. How many potential players have we lost because they didn't want to play on our rubber field? We lost Ronnie O'Brien because of the rubber field. How many injuries or extra fatigue have we had due to our rubber field? Had Chad Barrett been playing on grass on that hot day, would he have gotten a muscle cramp on his first game, or scored a goal on opening day?

We do need a sweeping.. the rubber field right into lake Ontario.

Parkdale
08-05-2008, 11:49 AM
We do need a sweeping.. the rubber field right into lake Ontario.

won't someone think of the fish!

bhoybobby
08-05-2008, 11:49 AM
There must be a course that teaches the mystical 5 year plan thing. It's used everywhere. It's designed to ensure employment for the muppet who spouts it.

Let's face it, should we expect a championship team in the 1st 2 - 3 years? No>

Should we expect the play-offs this year? Yes.

Should we expect more decent signings than we've had? Yes.

Carver's one of the positives this year, Mo's feet dragging is a negative. Speed it up Mo, or the play-offs will not happen

bangersandmash
08-05-2008, 11:55 AM
Not that I've written this year off, but next year will be the watermark. This year and last year were interrupted by intensive international competition and injuries to key players. AFAIK next year only has the African cup of nations (which will hurt New England more than anyone!). I also expect that we will be bringing in some striking talent via the draft.

Having a single team together for a season with depth up front should give us a clearer picture of where we're going. Except for the striker situation I would say that Mo and John have delivered on promises to improve. (though, I am surprised at how hard it has been to sign a quality striker).

Ossington Mental Youth
08-05-2008, 11:55 AM
Glad to see alot of common sense in this thread.

ACSertL
08-05-2008, 11:56 AM
I blame a lot of our problems on our rubber field. How many potential players have we lost because they didn't want to play on our rubber field? We lost Ronnie O'Brien because of the rubber field. How many injuries or extra fatigue have we had due to our rubber field? Had Chad Barrett been playing on grass on that hot day, would he have gotten a muscle cramp on his first game, or scored a goal on opening day?

We do need a sweeping.. the rubber field right into lake Ontario.

Maybe Barrett could have benefitted from Paul Winsper's training regiments in dealing with the pitch. I still think the turf is shit but so far this season I think Barrett is the only TFC casualty.

As for the housekeeping, I am all for allowing Carver and Mo time to get themselves sorted. The first grouping of home games was encouraging but perhaps the exception and not the rule this season. With another year under their belts I think it will serve them well. I also fully agree with expanding the scouting parameters...South America and Africa have been mentioned, but why not Asia, more specifically Japan?

LucaGol
08-05-2008, 12:00 PM
Bullshit. I see it with my eyes every week it is a shit league, you can convince yourself overwise all you want but in reality, it is a poorly played game. No game nor any team shoudl be ever be taken for granted, but shity parity should not be taken for quality. This is not a quality league. Anyway I do not give a shit about LA and NY nor any other city. I give a shit about Toronto. I give a shit about putting a competitive team on the field to represent our city. We did so at home in the early part of the season, we have failed to do so on the road in 1 1/2 years, and we have been disapointg at home in the past strech. I will tell you what I see. The truth is the truth. The MLS is shit, and despite this we are failing to compete. It is disapointing.

Carver is not making a mistake in his approach, but his team is failing to deliver on the field. Unfotunalty he will have to pay the price if this continues. That is the reality of being a coach.

Ok, I hope you and Carver continue on with the attitude of under-estimating oppostion and tell me how far it gets the team.

Probably not far I'm guessing.

There's a difference between playing in a shit league...and assuming that because your in a shit league that all the teams except for yours are...well...shit.

It doesn't work that way.

nimamalek
08-05-2008, 12:03 PM
If by year 3 or 4 we are not a playoff team then yes, clear Mo and Carver out, but a second year team that is missing their top forward and going through a bad patch doesnt need to have its entire front office cleared. You need to stop over reacting

rocker
08-05-2008, 12:03 PM
to sweep clean would only mean next year we're an expansion team again.

the team has improved from last year. as long as I see improvement from one year to the next in the point total, that's enough to keep it going as it is. If the team stays the same two years in a row or regresses in # of points, then changes may be made.

Yohan
08-05-2008, 12:09 PM
I love the Nintendo generation and their short attention span and demanding instant gratification

Shakes McQueen
08-05-2008, 12:15 PM
^ Who asked for them to win the Cup? The goal is making the playoffs. They have to achieve it.

According to who, was making the playoffs this season the goal?

Mo has been open about saying he is working on a personal timeline of five years for making this team top-flight in the MLS. We are slightly more than half way through year TWO, and Mo has made a lot of great present and future acquisitions (Ibee being one of them).

This team got off to a pretty hot start this season, and then some folks got the idea that the club was more than good enough already, to be competitive in the playoffs. Of course, injuries and call-ups have exposed the roster for how thin it really still is. Losing Dichio alone basically killed the team's ability to finish plays and set pieces.

Demanding a turnover of the entire football operations is crazy, and simply won't happen. And it shouldn't happen.

There is also a logical contradiction in your statements that TFC should be great, because the MLS is shit. TFC signs players from the same general pool of North American players, and internationals wiling to come to the MLS. As you can see from the close point differences in the league table this season (how many clubs at 22pts again?), the teams here are all relatively close to even, talent-wise.

I'm as bummed out about TFC's current skid as anyone else, but assuming it's the head office's fault, and that they should ALL be sacked and replaced, *IS* talking like a Leafs fan.

- Scott

Roogsy
08-05-2008, 12:19 PM
Mo said he had a 5 year plan in the beginning. I said I would hold him to that plan.

I stick by my words. If you go firing your coach/gm/etc every year or two you'll never have the confidence or chemistry that gets built up over time and the relationships that coaches build with the players.

This is pretty much all that needs to be said. To fire Carver after 1 year we will only ensure that no decent coach will ever want to come here. And how about we see what he can do without kicking him out at the first sign of trouble? Nobody can endure under that kind of regime.

Shakes McQueen
08-05-2008, 12:20 PM
This is pretty much all that needs to be said. To fire Carver after 1 year we will only ensure that no decent coach will ever want to come here. And how about we see what he can do without kicking him out at the first sign of trouble? Nobody can endure under that kind of regime.

Exactly. that is another huge consideration. Toronto becomes an incredibly unattractive place for coaches and management, if they have to fear for their professional lives without being given a reasonable chance to do their jobs.

- Scott

NateDoGG
08-05-2008, 12:22 PM
i am not a carver supporter.... i think he is an arrogant, selfish, conceded prick......
he almost always puts the blame on the refs and his players, never himself.....

his starting line ups and squad rotations are complete bullshit

Shaughno
08-05-2008, 12:25 PM
i am not a carver supporter.... i think he is an arrogant, selfish, conceded prick......
he almost always puts the blame on the refs and his players, never himself.....

his starting line ups and squad rotations are complete bullshit

Giambac's back?:noidea:

Velvet Elvis
08-05-2008, 12:26 PM
I also agree with sticking to the 5 year plan.

Building a team takes a lot of work, and look how far we've come already. I think Mo and Carver have us on a path, and I for one will support them as they try to see it through.

If we are in the same boat a couple of years from now it will be a different story. But for now they are trying things, and moving forward, and it will get better.

trane
08-05-2008, 12:28 PM
Mo had said that making the playoffs in the second season was the goal. Correct me if I a wrong. But I thought that this was said on several occasions. Even if this was not the case, making the playoffs in this league is not a lofty goal.

I like Carver I would like to see his suceed, my concern that the fundations of this franchise are set up correctly.

I am no panicing, nor am I expecting miracles. I just want hight standards and demands to be set by this organization. Five year plan is fine, but there has to be tangible imporvment in each of those five years. If we win 10 games with 10 draws and we do not make the playoffs I would say OK, we did not make the playoffs but we clearly improved. But at this point there is no real improvment in the results.

Shaughno
08-05-2008, 12:30 PM
Trane I agree. I think a combination of bad luck, shoddy ref'ing, lack of heart amongst many other things have gotten us to where we are today. It's still possible for us to make the playoffs this year, but if we're confidant we WON'T we might as well aim for last place...

Heathen
08-05-2008, 12:31 PM
dunno about missing the play-offs being the benchmark, I'd say if we finish in the bottom 3 of the league, which seems the more likely as things stand, then its pink slip time

AL-MO
08-05-2008, 12:31 PM
Didn't Brennan mention making the playoffs this year too?

Shakes McQueen
08-05-2008, 12:33 PM
Didn't Brennan mention making the playoffs this year too?

So did Barrett last week. The players will never rule out making the playoffs, unless they are mathematically eliminated.

- Scott

AL-MO
08-05-2008, 12:34 PM
So did Barrett last week. The players will never rule out making the playoffs, unless they are mathematically eliminated.

- Scott

This was at the beginning of the season. He made some kind of statement if I remember correctly.

trane
08-05-2008, 12:42 PM
Trane I agree. I think a combination of bad luck, shoddy ref'ing, lack of heart amongst many other things have gotten us to where we are today. It's still possible for us to make the playoffs this year, but if we're confidant we WON'T we might as well aim for last place...


Are there some good players comming up in the draft?

jaahuuu
08-05-2008, 12:53 PM
Go follow Bareclona, Real Madrid, Manchester United, Chelsea or Bayern Munich if you demand results right away.
I know what point you were trying to make but:
FCB won La Liga in the league's first year, but the team had already existed for 30 years.
Real Madrid Won La Liga in the league's 3rd year, but the team had been around for 30 years.
MUFC played in the English 1st division for 20 years before they won the championship.
Chelsea was there for 50 before they won.
Bayern won the German championship in their 32nd year, the 29th year a german national champion was decided.

People need to relax, this team has played a season and a half, with a lot of player turnover, against teams that have mostly been around for a decade. Give it 2 more seasons then start calling for everyone's head.

Parkdale
08-05-2008, 01:02 PM
I'd rather see a league wide change in officiating

Velvet Elvis
08-05-2008, 01:04 PM
I'd rather see a league wide change in officiating


FIFA trained refs are a must.

RedsYNWA
08-05-2008, 01:05 PM
We have to compare TFC to the last 2 expansion teams
1st season Chivas 18 points 2nd season 43 (made playoffs) total 59
1st season RSL 20 points 2nd season 39 total 61
TFC first season 25 points so far 08 22 points total 47

Point is can we get 12 points from our remaining 12 games, if not its fair to assume from the above that RSL and Chivas were better managed teams

Dirk Diggler
08-05-2008, 01:06 PM
This 5 year crap is bull. Seriously, do you guys honestly think Mo actually has a plan that stretches out 5 years? There are so many things that he can't predict now that could happen 5 years down the road. He's just buying himself time. Again, Toronto fans should know better than to fall for that "5 year plan" crap again. The Blue Jays are in year 8 of their 5 year plan and have yet to make the playoffs.

rocker
08-05-2008, 01:08 PM
But at this point there is no real improvment in the results.

at the current pace, the team would end up with 37 points, 12 more than last year (essentially 4 more wins). So clearly based on that, the team has seen an improvement "at this point" in the results.
We have basically the same shitty road record as last year, although goals on the road are up
We have a much better home record than last year, with a +6 differential in goals.

I see these facts as improvement.

Now, if they don't win another game from here on, then there would be no improvement from last season.

brad
08-05-2008, 01:19 PM
Re-watch a few matches from last season and tell me that we haven't improved as a team.

AL-MO
08-05-2008, 01:21 PM
Re-watch a few matches from last season and tell me that we haven't improved as a team.


Since June 14th its been a mirror image of last season. This team can hardly put three passes together sometimes.

overall I think we have a better team this year, but something right now is not working.

trane
08-05-2008, 01:24 PM
at the current pace, the team would end up with 37 points, 12 more than last year (essentially 4 more wins). So clearly based on that, the team has seen an improvement "at this point" in the results.
We have basically the same shitty road record as last year, although goals on the road are up
We have a much better home record than last year, with a +6 differential in goals.

I see these facts as improvement.

Now, if they don't win another game from here on, then there would be no improvement from last season.

I do not think that this is quite true, at this point last season, we had a similar record, and had we not gone in a slump we could have made the play offs. The same thing is happening this year.

trane
08-05-2008, 01:25 PM
Re-watch a few matches from last season and tell me that we haven't improved as a team.

I never said that we are not playing better football, I think our squad is better overall, but in the area were it ultimatley counts, Wins-Points, we are prety much in the same place.

jaahuuu
08-05-2008, 01:30 PM
^^ Chicago Fire won the Supporters Shield and MLS Cup in their first season I do belive. ;)
That was only the 3rd MLS season, I woudn't say any oter team in the league had a high standard of play.

How about a team in a league that's been around for a while.

ensco
08-05-2008, 01:32 PM
We were a better team in May and June 2007 than we have ever been since. Cunningham looked very dangerous and scored three times in his first 7 games here. Dichio was healthy.

We have not replaced O'Brien.

sidney
08-05-2008, 01:39 PM
we/TFC WILL MAKE THE PLAYOFFS THIS SEASON! Therefore, this point/thread will then be moot.

Shaughno
08-05-2008, 01:42 PM
That was only the 3rd MLS season, I woudn't say any oter team in the league had a high standard of play.

How about a team in a league that's been around for a while.

While I agree, it's the most relevant situation comparable to ours. ;)

Shakes McQueen
08-05-2008, 01:48 PM
I say if we don't make the playoffs this year, all of the supporters groups should get together and burn down BMO Field. And then afterwards, demand that MLSE sell the franchise to Wilkes-Barre.

:D

- Scott

ExiledRed
08-05-2008, 01:55 PM
This 5 year crap is bull. Seriously, do you guys honestly think Mo actually has a plan that stretches out 5 years? There are so many things that he can't predict now that could happen 5 years down the road. He's just buying himself time. Again, Toronto fans should know better than to fall for that "5 year plan" crap again. The Blue Jays are in year 8 of their 5 year plan and have yet to make the playoffs.

Yep, I was wondering where the 'TFC Stalinists' were getting their material.

5 year plan my arse.

Is part of that plan to fuck up year two mid stride, by not making any significant signings?

Roogsy
08-05-2008, 01:59 PM
5 years only because year 2 doesn't make sense when you build a team from scratch and have nothing to tap into except the free agent market.

I wouldn't say it is a concise specific 5 year plan, but I am guess that the academy is a big part of it, as is the next CBA. The point is...they are looking long-term, not selling out the future by giving away draft picks (and picking up a few along the way), putting money into young players who hopefully may wind up playing for TFC and keeping the coffers ready when needed, whether it be a DP, or later on when the annual roster cap is announced or when the new CBA comes around.

So yeah...I believe him when he says there is a 5 year plan. Because other teams have announced building plans and gone on to mediocrity doesn't mean we need to attribute it to TFC. This team is actually building because there is no other way when you have started from nothing.

kitchener-TFC
08-05-2008, 02:00 PM
I stick by my words. If you go firing your coach/gm/etc every year or two you'll never have the confidence or chemistry that gets built up over time and the relationships that coaches build with the players.
Well said. Coaches need to build relationships/bonds with their players, in order for a team's success. If you go changing coaches every year, that relationship/bond won't exist.


i am not a carver supporter.... i think he is an arrogant, selfish, conceded prick......
he almost always puts the blame on the refs and his players, never himself.....

his starting line ups and squad rotations are complete bullshit
I completely disagree. The refs have costed us a few games this season.

tlear
08-05-2008, 02:00 PM
More fun facts! (ripped from Wiki!)

Dynamo Kiev, formed 1927

First USSR League win 1961, thats 34 years

Total USSR league wins 13 (highest in the league)
Total Ukrainian championship wins 12 (in 16 years, 1992-2008)
UEFA cup wins 2

People have some patience, great clubs do not become great in 2-3 years. Club needs to work on the academy on the whole system surrounding the pro-team, you know the "club" part. The results will come.

ilikemusic
08-05-2008, 02:03 PM
A 5 year plan in a league that changes it's rules regarding player movement pretty well every season is ridiculous.

v00d00daddy
08-05-2008, 02:07 PM
Guys we haven't won a game in any competition since June 14th, at home against Colorado!

Yes...the team is better than it was last year...but marginally. You can argue about the acquisitions all you want but the results tell the story. Now we lose our best midfielder for at least one game (probably more)....we still have two starters out injured (Dichio and Dunivant) and two playing in the Olympics...plus Velez.

Do you honestly think this season is gonna get better from here on out?

At the end of the day who should be blamed for our results...or lack thereof?

First...NOT the officiating. Yes it was bad but that was only one game.

IMO it should be:

1. the players
2. the coach
3. the manager

That being said, I don't think Carver or Mo should be fired BUT...they wear a lot of the blame. We should not be praising Mo, or Carver or the players right now. The team is not performing, plain and simple.

Commenting on this board about how good Carver is, or how good Mo is or how great any player is, is....well ridiculous. The 5 year plan story is bullshit. You think if we were still playing like we were at the beginning of the year Mo would be saying...."we have a 5 year plan". Bullshit! He'd be saying "We're a cup contender". The fact is TFC is playing like shit. Opposition have figured us out and we have no answer, and that's a combination of mediocre players and mediocre tactics.

Nothing good can (or should) be said about a club that hasn't won in 2 months.

Shaughno
08-05-2008, 02:07 PM
A 5 year plan in a league that changes it's rules regarding player movement pretty well every season is ridiculous.

And a no year plan is even more ridiculous.

ilikemusic
08-05-2008, 02:11 PM
And a no year plan is even more ridiculous.

Ya. Whatever moron suggested a no year plan needs to give his head a few shakes. Who was that guy anyway?

RPB_Brantford_08
08-05-2008, 02:13 PM
I am a Carver supporter, and I do not dislike Mo. I like what Carver is trying to do and I like his passion, and methods. Mo I am less sure of, he seems to deliver, but often it seems that he does so to late.

However, despite my support of Carver, if we do not make the playoffs I hope that the entire football operations side gets replaced.


this trane is off the tracks....you cannot build a playoff team in two years, that fact we still have shot is because of the good work Carver and Mo have done...You should go follow the Leafs, the might be the winner your looking for!!

Shaughno
08-05-2008, 02:13 PM
Ya. Whatever moron suggested a no year plan needs to give his head a few shakes. Who was that guy anyway?

Me! :canada:

ExiledRed
08-05-2008, 02:20 PM
First...NOT the officiating. Yes it was bad but that was only one game..


I am going to take issue with this statement.

Poor officiating has been a constant and our team has taken the brunt of it. We've had penalties awarded against us that are ridiculous, we've been carded for diving in the box after a two footed tackle took out our players shins, when we should have been awarded a penalty. We've had good goals disallowed, and a list of important non-calls too. The refs never give us the benfit of the doubt, yet let visiting teams run roughshod over our flair players, climb all over Dichio and dive like it's within the rules to do so.

It's not just one game, it's practically all of them, and it's intolerable.

ExiledRed
08-05-2008, 02:23 PM
this trane is off the tracks....you cannot build a playoff team in two years!!

Says who?

While parity exists, we could do it in year one like Chicago did.

Without parity, we and LA are the two richest teams, so we should be able to buy the cup, also relatively quickly.

Shakes McQueen
08-05-2008, 02:25 PM
Says who?

While parity exists, we could do it in year one like Chicago did.

Without parity, we and LA are the two richest teams, so we should be able to buy the cup, also relatively quickly.


Chicago did it when the entire league was only a few years old.

- Scott

ExiledRed
08-05-2008, 02:26 PM
Chicago did it when the entire league was only a few years old.

- Scott

irrelevant.

Shaughno
08-05-2008, 02:30 PM
Chicago did it when the league was generally shit, but Chicago was shit then as well. They still are the best comparison we have, but I do think they were a fluke.

trane
08-05-2008, 02:32 PM
this trane is off the tracks....you cannot build a playoff team in two years, that fact we still have shot is because of the good work Carver and Mo have done...You should go follow the Leafs, the might be the winner your looking for!!



I am realy tired of this. I do not mind people disagreeing with me. But this shit, I disagree with you so you know nothing about soccer, is pretty ridicoulous. I have followed football all my life, I remember when my team AC Milan was in Serie B. Please do not talk to me about supporting a hockey team.


Making the playoffs, is not an unrealistic goal in this league. We are not talking about a Championship spot in the EPL, Serie A, the Liga or the Budesliga. We are basicaly talking about just better then a mid table team in a relatively new( and lets face it weak) league. Is is really to much to ask.

FluSH
08-05-2008, 02:41 PM
A 5 year plan in a league that changes it's rules regarding player movement pretty well every season is ridiculous.

5 year plan? This sounds similarly erie...





























http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Basketball/NBA/Toronto/2006/01/27/babcock_rob250.jpg

oooh yeah... now I remember...

nascarguy
08-05-2008, 02:42 PM
lol i can see this topic being close down people need to take sometime off from this forum or maybe anything tfc and go upnorth and clear there head and drink some beer.

Phil
08-05-2008, 02:45 PM
:topic:

Lets cut down on the attacks and stick with debate shall we?

ExiledRed
08-05-2008, 02:46 PM
lol i can see this topic being close down people need to take sometime off from this forum or maybe anything tfc and go upnorth and clear there head and drink some beer.

?

Off you go up north then , nascar.

Let me know how the bugs are this year.

nascarguy
08-05-2008, 02:48 PM
debate just leads to fighting and name calling

Heathen
08-05-2008, 02:49 PM
debate just leads to fighting and name calling

wouldn't be much of a message board without debate though eh

ExiledRed
08-05-2008, 02:49 PM
debate just leads to fighting and name calling

So why dont we just shut the fucking board down then?

how fucking lame, goodnight.

nascarguy
08-05-2008, 02:50 PM
?

Off you go up north then , nascar.

Let me know how the bugs are this year.
the bugs are not bad this year there has been years that the bugs have bad but then again if you keep the tree line back and keep the grass cut then everything is good ...

Bobo
08-05-2008, 02:57 PM
What is this, the Leafs thread?

No, the Leafs thread would sound more like:

"Go TFC go! I'll always support you no matter how long you're shit! I like to talk shit but wouldn't ever want to do anything about my displeasure.'"

Actually there are a lot of those.....



I love Carver but he seems to be just about as incompetent on the pitch as Mo was.

nascarguy
08-05-2008, 03:02 PM
wouldn't be much of a message board without debate though eh
yeah I know but some poeple do not know how to debate with out fighting and name calling

Parkdale
08-05-2008, 03:06 PM
yeah I know but some poeple do not know how to debate with out fighting and name calling


is that why you're always trying to hurt my feelings?


:cool:

nascarguy
08-05-2008, 03:07 PM
is that why you're always trying to hurt my feelings?


:cool:
yes lol:taz:

boban
08-05-2008, 03:47 PM
If you go firing your coach/gm/etc every year or two you'll never have the confidence or chemistry that gets built up over time and the relationships that coaches build with the players.
Tell that to Fabio Capello who won a trophy in his qst year with REAl - but still got fired. You don't need 5 years to see where things are going.
The maximum time he should have is til the end of this season. Its not a case of trophies and titles, but where is the team headed.

Parkdale
08-05-2008, 03:53 PM
Tell that to Fabio Capello who won a trophy in his qst year with REAl - but still got fired. You don't need 5 years to see where things are going.
The maximum time he should have is til the end of this season. Its not a case of trophies and titles, but where is the team headed.

who? Carver or Mo?

Originally I suspected that Carver was brought in as a 'fall-guy' for Mo, but now I don't see it that way. I was suspicious that Mo knew he's only have a short amount of time left in the coaching role, so he intentionally maneuvered his way out and into higher management before he would be held accountable for the teams poor performance. Now, I see that he's actually trying to let someone else cover his weak spots (actual coaching of the team) while doing more of what he's good at (playing Trader Mo)

trane
08-05-2008, 03:55 PM
Tell that to Fabio Capello who won a trophy in his qst year with REAl - but still got fired. You don't need 5 years to see where things are going.
The maximum time he should have is til the end of this season. Its not a case of trophies and titles, but where is the team headed.

That is my point, I do not like were the team is headed right at this point, if we do not pull out of it, we need to consider changes.

boban
08-05-2008, 03:55 PM
the team has improved from last year. as long as I see improvement from one year to the next in the point total, that's enough to keep it going as it is. If the team stays the same two years in a row or regresses in # of points, then changes may be made.
Holy, please remind me to never nominate or hire you for coach or manager of anything. God, thats a pathetic attitude to have in sport.

Parkdale
08-05-2008, 03:58 PM
Holy, please remind me to never nominate or hire you for coach or manager of anything. God, thats a pathetic attitude to have in sport.

I think it's realistic. Sure every new coach wants to talk big and claim that 'this is our year' and all that horse shit, but a slow and steady rise to the top is what we need. The last thing I want to see if TFC take the Miami Heat approach to the playoffs (selling out your future for this one shot). I'd much rather have a team is consistent improvement over one that got too good, too fast, and then imploded.

The point total is a clear way to judge how much we've actually improved.

Dirk Diggler
08-05-2008, 04:06 PM
The thing that doesn't fill me with confidence is that Mo has never been known as a great manager. If he had a reputation for competence (like say Brian Colangelo with the Raptors) I would be willing to give him all the time in the world. But GM's like John Ferguson and J.P. Riccardi have proven the fact that the more time you give to an incompetant GM, the worse off the situation gets. This is the exact reason why I wouldn't mind seeing Mo get the axe at anytime this season. He just doesn't seem like a man with a vision (contrary to what his "5-year-plan" excuse might suggest).

Also, MLS is not a hard league to compete in. Seriously, just look around at other teams. There is so much roster turnover that the more "established" teams only have a slight advantage over us. There is absolutely no reason why the team should not have been a guarantee to claim a playoffs spot this season.

Yohan
08-05-2008, 04:20 PM
The thing that doesn't fill me with confidence is that Mo has never been known as a great manager. If he had a reputation for competence (like say Brian Colangelo with the Raptors) I would be willing to give him all the time in the world. But GM's like John Ferguson and J.P. Riccardi have proven the fact that the more time you give to an incompetant GM, the worse off the situation gets. This is the exact reason why I wouldn't mind seeing Mo get the axe at anytime this season. He just doesn't seem like a man with a vision (contrary to what his "5-year-plan" excuse might suggest).

Also, MLS is not a hard league to compete in. Seriously, just look around at other teams. There is so much roster turnover that the more "established" teams only have a slight advantage over us. There is absolutely no reason why the team should not have been a guarantee to claim a playoffs spot this season.

Other than NER, which other team in MLS have been making as many moves as MoJo and still produce a decent team? (and keep in mind most teams in MLS has had bigger headstart than TFC to put together a team)

With salary cap, lack of transfer fund available, attractiveness of Toronto as a place to live in...

It's almost like we're debating fire Mo threads earlier this year yet again.

Ossington Mental Youth
08-05-2008, 04:33 PM
Mojo has managed one other team, NYRB with which he was working with Lalas.
You wanna talk incompetant, take a look at that ginger cunt.
Even when he was there he still brought in talent and lacked in strategy etc, which is why he brought in Carver and Winsper, both of which have contributed significantly.
Its a slide which CAN be fixed but HAS to be fixed soon. Although its demoralizing we have to support the team as they have done little to prove that they cant win (with exception to our last few games). The striker situation needs to be addressed ASAP and godwilling it will be. Its a bit frustrating not unlike the start of the season but even then Mo proved alot of people wrong and came through...

Ossington Mental Youth
08-05-2008, 04:33 PM
Nothing can be fixed or proven by cleaning house.
Ill reiterate what i already stated, its nice to see so much common sense in here.

boban
08-05-2008, 04:46 PM
Well said. Coaches need to build relationships/bonds with their players, in order for a team's success. If you go changing coaches every year, that relationship/bond won't exist.
Go see a shrink if you need some bonding and/or deprived of it.

boban
08-05-2008, 04:57 PM
I think it's realistic. Sure every new coach wants to talk big and claim that 'this is our year' and all that horse shit, but a slow and steady rise to the top is what we need. The last thing I want to see if TFC take the Miami Heat approach to the playoffs (selling out your future for this one shot). I'd much rather have a team is consistent improvement over one that got too good, too fast, and then imploded.

The point total is a clear way to judge how much we've actually improved.
Bullshit. We sucked last year. And I mean we really sucked. By your definition then if we get slightly more than 25 points its considered a successful year and no heads need to roll? That is exactly the attitude that never wins anything! FFS we have 2 goalless streak records in our 1st first season. So an improvement is if we just get to about 700 minutes and not surpass last years minute?? Give me a break. The bar was set so low that to use some point improvement as a yard stick is an insult to all fans of the game and the club. Marked improvement, not only in points (and a massive improvement in that particular area), but in many areas has to be clearly seen. Mo and his mafia is running out of time to show this.

TFC07
08-05-2008, 05:00 PM
I wouldn’t mind if MLSE fires Mo and replace him with a proven MLS GM. I think Carver deserves another chance since he is a rookie coach. If the team in the next season still sucks then MLSE should fire Carver. Right now, I am not impressed with Carver’s game tactics at all. Offensively, we are shit and too predictable. As for the players, I hope half of players on this team end up being waived or traded by end of this season.

TFC07
08-05-2008, 05:02 PM
5 year plan? This sounds similarly erie...

http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Basketball/NBA/Toronto/2006/01/27/babcock_rob250.jpg

oooh yeah... now I remember...

That brings back some painful memories.

Rawkus_420
08-05-2008, 05:16 PM
I am a Carver supporter, and I do not dislike Mo. I like what Carver is trying to do and I like his passion, and methods. Mo I am less sure of, he seems to deliver, but often it seems that he does so to late.

However, despite my support of Carver, if we do not make the playoffs I hope that the entire football operations side gets replaced.


You must be a leafs fan....no wonder no team ever succeed in this city anymore, because you call for heads when they have a losing season. heres a wakeup call for ya, Carver has shit to work with, it has nothing to do with his methods, if they fire them now, it will just be worse next year, if anything our staff has improved ten fold...should they fire winsper too if they dont make the playoffs>???...based on what youre saying they should, then we can go back to the first season where we were injury plagued... winsper has done a greta job keeping ourlads healthy on field turf!!!!! last year we had to field adam braz cause we couldnt stay healthy you dotn want that again do you???

ExiledRed
08-05-2008, 05:36 PM
looks like every one of us is a leafs fan in some way or the other.

I love how there are about a thousand different criterias for 'leafs fan' and they all conflict with each other.

Yes there is a poor performing hockey team in Toronto, so fucking what?

trane
08-05-2008, 05:42 PM
You must be a leafs fan....no wonder no team ever succeed in this city anymore, because you call for heads when they have a losing season. heres a wakeup call for ya, Carver has shit to work with, it has nothing to do with his methods, if they fire them now, it will just be worse next year, if anything our staff has improved ten fold...should they fire winsper too if they dont make the playoffs>???...based on what youre saying they should, then we can go back to the first season where we were injury plagued... winsper has done a greta job keeping ourlads healthy on field turf!!!!! last year we had to field adam braz cause we couldnt stay healthy you dotn want that again do you???

^ As I have said on numerous occasions. This" you must be a leafs fan" is getting fucking old. How do you think supporters in Liverpool, Glasgow, Rome, Madrid, Mancherster, Milan or anywhere else in the football world would react? Again I do not mind people not agreeing with me, but do not do it out of blind loyalty. Quite honselty blind loyalty reminds me of leafs fans.

Bars92
08-05-2008, 05:51 PM
looks like every one of us is a leafs fan in some way or the other.

I love how there are about a thousand different criterias for 'leafs fan' and they all conflict with each other.

Yes there is a poor performing hockey team in Toronto, so fucking what?

They have the same owners as Toronto FC.

But, I don't think we are going to find a better coach in MLS than Carver.

AL-MO
08-05-2008, 06:01 PM
You must be a leafs fan....no wonder no team ever succeed in this city anymore, because you call for heads when they have a losing season. heres a wakeup call for ya, Carver has shit to work with, it has nothing to do with his methods, if they fire them now, it will just be worse next year, if anything our staff has improved ten fold...should they fire winsper too if they dont make the playoffs>???...based on what youre saying they should, then we can go back to the first season where we were injury plagued... winsper has done a greta job keeping ourlads healthy on field turf!!!!! last year we had to field adam braz cause we couldnt stay healthy you dotn want that again do you???

Have you noticed that this team plays the same way every game? And every game they struggle mightly to score? If something is not working should you not adjust the tactics?

Dirk Diggler
08-05-2008, 06:31 PM
The next person to call someone else a "Leafs fan" should be banned right on the spot.

CoachGT
08-05-2008, 06:34 PM
I thought he had been adjusting tactics, but he's only got so much to work with. The coach can only use the tools available. He's gone from a 4-4-1-1 to a 4-4-2, to a 3-5-2 on the road, and on to a 4-5-1 at times. Players have moved around (Guevara to the middle and then to a holding role), Wynne on the wings and Jimmy B in the middle just to note a few. Wingers switch sides regularly during the game. As much as we'd like to have somebody fill the role of a Wayne Rooney, people with that level of skill are somewhat hard to find (and probably fall well outside of the price range of MLS).

And a coach shouldn't be hung for poor execution by his players.

marquis
08-05-2008, 08:05 PM
There is one thing that worries me a lot about our future and the "5 years" plan - Carver's below statement after the Dallas game:

"It's difficult to cope with that situation because up until they scored, certainly in the first half, I thought there were times when we played some really good football," Carver said. "It was encouraging, it was great."

If he cannot acknowledge/accept that we've played atrocious football against Dallas, then he's not the right person to lead this team...Any healing process starts with the acceptance of the illness - to me, Carver is in a complete denial; he's like an alcoholic who does not admit he has a drinking problem.

AL-MO
08-05-2008, 08:16 PM
There is one thing that worries me a lot about our future and the "5 years" plan - Carver's below statement after the Dallas game:

"It's difficult to cope with that situation because up until they scored, certainly in the first half, I thought there were times when we played some really good football," Carver said. "It was encouraging, it was great."

If he cannot acknowledge/accept that we've played atrocious football against Dallas, then he's not the right person to lead this team...Any healing process starts with the acceptance of the illness - to me, Carver is in a complete denial; he's like an alcoholic who does not admit he has a drinking problem.

I haven't seen 'good football' in months from this team.

Beach_Red
08-05-2008, 09:01 PM
Let's face it, every coach/manager hired in every sport says it will take five years to build a winner. Would you hire a guy who says he can deliver in one year? Would you take a job with a last place (or nearly last place, or expansion team) if the deal was you had to be a champion in a year? Imagine the managers we'd get...

But then every coach/manager thinks they can win every game when it starts.

CoachGT
08-05-2008, 09:21 PM
I hate to say that the man has a point, but I agree with Bob McCown's position on coaches. The question to be answered before firing one is: has the man got the most out of the players he has? If the answer is yes, the players have played to their potential, then it isn't the coach's fault. But if the answer is that the players have not played as well as people think they can, then it's time for a change. I think that Carver has got everything he can from many players, but a few (in particular Edu and Cunningham, and a few of the week to week fill ins) haven't performed at all.

I think we'd be in much worse shape with out Carver.

kshep
08-05-2008, 09:25 PM
Let's face it, every coach/manager hired in every sport says it will take five years to build a winner. Would you hire a guy who says he can deliver in one year? Would you take a job with a last place (or nearly last place, or expansion team) if the deal was you had to be a champion in a year? Imagine the managers we'd get...

But then every coach/manager thinks they can win every game when it starts.

Dude, people don't want logic they want to run their mouths and pontificate on how much better they would be at being coach/manager of our club.. Experience, you say? Well they play with their pub teams and go to matches and yeah they watch the Euro leagues.. so everyone's an expert.

Keep logic out of your replies, that way people will understand what you're about.

Mark in Ottawa
08-06-2008, 09:12 AM
The important thing is to look for slow but consistent improvement year over year.
This year the team is definitely playing better and is "in" most games to the end.
The number of player games lost to injury is down overall and the squad must deal with olympic call ups and the like as well.

A number of the reserve players are playing themselves onto the team and are obviously deserving of the chance given their performance.

The head office is trying to acquire new players (McBride took a while to sort out) and unlike other clubs in the world have the league as a "partner" in a lot of these negotiations. Having the manager and coach as two seperate bodies is a step up in my opinion from last year.

The academy is up and running... this can only bode well for the future :canada:
Playoffs? Not yet out of the realm of possibility. Was it ever so last year?

second year in and I believe the team is moving in the right direction albeit a little slowly for some :rolleyes:

trane
08-06-2008, 09:39 AM
Let's face it, every coach/manager hired in every sport says it will take five years to build a winner. Would you hire a guy who says he can deliver in one year? Would you take a job with a last place (or nearly last place, or expansion team) if the deal was you had to be a champion in a year? Imagine the managers we'd get...

But then every coach/manager thinks they can win every game when it starts.


How the fuck said that we should be champions in a year. Read the fucking comments.

trane
08-06-2008, 09:49 AM
Dude, people don't want logic they want to run their mouths and pontificate on how much better they would be at being coach/manager of our club.. Experience, you say? Well they play with their pub teams and go to matches and yeah they watch the Euro leagues.. so everyone's an expert.

Keep logic out of your replies, that way people will understand what you're about.


I am tiered of this shit. Do you like the direction the club is headed right now, if this keeps up all year, do you think that managment is doing its job. There are too many similarites between the two seasons for my taste.

I love what Carver is trying to do, I love a defense first system. I would love to see him succeed. How the fuck is pontificating. But the reality we are going to be in deep shit as a franchise if we have much more of this. It is imporatant for our future that we show develepment.

I fucking care about the team, I fucking care about football, it is not a party for me were I can get drunk and make an ass of myself. This is a fucking religion. This is a point of pride for the city and the country. I fucking care. This , I have to say it Canadian, take it easy it takes time attitude, has resulted in fucking Dale Mitchell not being fired after shaming our country in the under 20's. If we want to succeed in this game we need an attidude, which is simple. You set goals, if you do not meet them you pay the price this is the same in any country, with every club. Are you really saying that making the playoffs is unrealistic with the tallent we have this year?

tlear
08-06-2008, 01:00 PM
Dale Mitchell is totally different situation he had U20 for FIVE years, the total failure that was the youth world cup should have sent him into a permanent retirement or maybe coaching a highschool soccer team at best.. instead he is coaching CMNT /boggle.

If Carver sticks around for 5 years and after all that time we are still without Canada Cup or decent finish in the playoffs then he should definitely be kicked out, hell kick him out after 3 years if we are not getting anywhere. Doing it after 1 year is just dumb

ricciboy
08-06-2008, 05:47 PM
"How long do we give Mo and Carver to build a top of the table team?", should be the real focus of the thread.

I would say 2 more years after the conclusion of this one. 1 if the team performs as poorly as this year..next season (aka performing poorly by achieving no trophies in the CCL, lack of offense, lack of leadership, poor tactics...etc).

Mo seems to be on a decent track with the stockpiling of picks...and the turf issue has really hindered his ability to sign people. On the other hand...his scope for talent searching is too limited. He definitely needs to bring in a South American scout full time. Just hire somone who's already down there. Same goes for Africa. Let's be creative here.

Carver is shortening his leash by his own doing with his constant tirades and belittling of MLS opposition. He needs to learn the league a bit better and revise his tactics for the players he has and the opposition he faces.



i agree

Roogsy
08-06-2008, 05:55 PM
Dale Mitchell is totally different situation he had U20 for FIVE years, the total failure that was the youth world cup should have sent him into a permanent retirement or maybe coaching a highschool soccer team at best.. instead he is coaching CMNT /boggle.

Only with the CSA would you find a complete failure get promoted from the Junior team to the Senior team.

jloome
08-06-2008, 06:13 PM
The more I think about this thread, the more I see it as short-sighted horseshit. Sorry 'bout that.

Here's why.

• In year one, we stunk and only had 25 points.

• In year two, we had 22 points at the break, and added good key players worth keeping for anotheryear (Ricketts, Guevara, Robert) along with some promising youth (Ibee, Smith, Hemming).

• If the trend were to continue, we would presumably add two or three more major influencers next year (say, one striker and two defenders) and, yes, at that point I think we're looking at a long-term contender, particularly if you consider that the club's larger overseas network will be considerably larger by that point.

Ossington Mental Youth
08-06-2008, 06:16 PM
The more I think about this thread, the more I see it as short-sighted horseshit. Sorry 'bout that.

Here's why.

• In year one, we stunk and only had 25 points.

• In year two, we had 22 points at the break, and added good key players worth keeping for anotheryear (Ricketts, Guevara, Robert) along with some promising youth (Ibee, Smith, Hemming).

• If the trend were to continue, we would presumably add two or three more major influencers next year (say, one striker and two defenders) and, yes, at that point I think we're looking at a long-term contender, particularly if you consider that the club's larger overseas network will be considerably larger by that point.

HAHAHA
truth
i admit to being guilty to a certain extent simply because the first bit of the season allowed for me to think that we could/should get to the playoffs (we still can but its going to be a bigger effort).

Its harder to think of the long term picture without a doubt, especially when youve got that taste in your mouth.

I_AM_CANADIAN
08-06-2008, 06:24 PM
I am a Carver supporter, and I do not dislike Mo. I like what Carver is trying to do and I like his passion, and methods. Mo I am less sure of, he seems to deliver, but often it seems that he does so to late.

However, despite my support of Carver, if we do not make the playoffs I hope that the entire football operations side gets replaced.
That's what we call throwing out the baby with the bath...

Otherwise known as annoying hyperactive Leafs fan syndrome. You're not going to win the Cup every season, and you're not going to automatically become a table-topping team in your second season ever. If the only reason you're a TFC supporter is because you want to say you're a fan of a champion, Houston are doing quite well this season, and lord knows they could use some more people in their building. It's like those people who are all "MO AND CARVER AND ALL TEH PLAYRS ARE SIHT I'M BOYCOTTING TFC CAUSE WE DIDNT PUT IN A BID FOR CISTRIANO RONALDOO WHOS WITH ME?" Calm your ass down and enjoy football. It's about supporting the club through thick and thin, so many people can't understand that concept.

If being a supporter was only about trophies, than 90% of the teams in Europe would play in front of empty stands.

Kooper
08-06-2008, 06:46 PM
Calm your ass down and enjoy football. It's about supporting the club through thick and thin, so many people can't understand that concept.

If being a supporter was only about trophies, than 90% of the teams in Europe would play in front of empty stands.

The post above is the one that has said the most sane thing in this entire thread.

Well said.

I_AM_CANADIAN
08-06-2008, 06:47 PM
Grazie, signore...

Inswingingwingman
08-06-2008, 06:49 PM
Right calm down. this is MLSE.

Right now they are agonizing over spending the extra cash on new seats and beer concessions or new jerseys. Imagine,. spend no more money
on players but get 30 percent more cash from the machine and beer and seats......

Dirk Diggler
08-06-2008, 07:10 PM
That's what we call throwing out the baby with the bath...

Otherwise known as annoying hyperactive Leafs fan syndrome....

...If being a supporter was only about trophies, than 90% of the teams in Europe would play in front of empty stands.

Once again with the faulty Leafs analogy.

As for the bolded part, wtf are you on about? He's still showing up to the games, isn't he? Did he say we should all stop watching TFC play if they don't win the MLS Cup?

I_AM_CANADIAN
08-06-2008, 07:12 PM
He's saying that he essentially expects this team to be winning trophies this year, and I pointed out that, one, that's unrealistic, and two, trophies are only a part of what being a supporter is about.

And if you ever visit the Leafs forum, it's FULL of threads just like this. Bitching about everything, thinking they know how to run an NHL franchise and saying they should clear out evreybody after seasons in which they miss the playoffs by a single point.

Axeman
08-06-2008, 07:12 PM
Mo, what has he done this year? Robert, Ricketts, Guevarra, etc. that seems like an upgrade to me. TFC definetly on a slide but let's support them not abandon them now, we can still make the playoffs. Marvell, Adu, and Dichio would've helped.
We can't accept losing but a lot of you act like we've been through 10 years of it. Come on.

ExiledRed
08-06-2008, 07:17 PM
He's saying that he essentially expects this team to be winning trophies this year, and I pointed out that, one, that's unrealistic, and two, trophies are only a part of what being a supporter is about.

And if you ever visit the Leafs forum, it's FULL of threads just like this. Bitching about everything, thinking they know how to run an NHL franchise and saying they should clear out evreybody after seasons in which they miss the playoffs by a single point.

You know you're right.

This mediocre shit is all we deserve and we should be happy.

good call.

ExiledRed
08-06-2008, 07:20 PM
We should follow the example of other mediocre teams like Newcastle, who accept their mediocrity with unswerving loyalty to their coaches and owners.

Shakes McQueen
08-06-2008, 07:25 PM
You know you're right.

This mediocre shit is all we deserve and we should be happy.

good call.

What we deserve has nothing to do with the equation.

You can support the team, and hope they do well, but your expectations are officially out of wack when you're calling for the entire operations staff to be sacked after Mo's first half a season of being the GM of a 1.5 year old club.

Having lower (arguably more realistic) expectations has nothing to do with accepting or deserving mediocrity - that is a strawman argument. Everyone here wants the club to do well.

- Scott

Dirk Diggler
08-06-2008, 07:27 PM
He's saying that he essentially expects this team to be winning trophies this year, and I pointed out that, one, that's unrealistic, and two, trophies are only a part of what being a supporter is about.

And if you ever visit the Leafs forum, it's FULL of threads just like this. Bitching about everything, thinking they know how to run an NHL franchise and saying they should clear out evreybody after seasons in which they miss the playoffs by a single point.

Don't put words in his mouth. The only trophy any reasonable TFC fan expected the team to win this year was the Canadian Championship. Aside from that, no one expected the team to win either the MLS Cup or the Supporters Shield.

And the reason why the Leafs are mired in mediocrity is because their fans (especially the ones who can afford to go games) are apathetic. The ones on the internet represent a tiny minority. Either way, I digress. The traits of a stereotypical Leafs fan have been brought up for the most unnecessary reasons and it would be better if people stop calling each other that on the board considering how no one seems to be sure what the traits of a Leafs fan are in the first place.

I_AM_CANADIAN
08-06-2008, 07:28 PM
Axeman: That's exactly what I'm talking about. If we had gone through five years of being in the bottom half of the table, that would be something different. Losing isn't acceptable, but going through a run of poor form in your second season ever is hardly cause for people to be fired.

That, and just the whole concept of this fixation with having to support a winning team to justify yourself as a human being. Having posted on English football forums since around 2002, I've talked to supporters of clubs like Cambridge United, Darlington, Weymouth, Gillingham, Ipswich Town, Queens Park Rangers, etc. whose main concern isn't winning the Champions League to say the least. It really gives you a sense of perspective, some of the people in this thread could use that.

giambac
08-07-2008, 09:57 AM
I am a Carver supporter, and I do not dislike Mo. I like what Carver is trying to do and I like his passion, and methods. Mo I am less sure of, he seems to deliver, but often it seems that he does so to late.

However, despite my support of Carver, if we do not make the playoffs I hope that the entire football operations side gets replaced.

Trane,

this topic is great for discussion because you will get people on opposite sides of the spectrum. Some will want a complete overhaul, otherwise will want no changes.

Here is my take on it.

All successful companies/organizations whether they are public or private entitites or sport entities for that matter should set realistic goals/targets at the beginning of the year. It is these goals/targets which are then used as the benchmarks for evaluating how succesful the organaization (team) has been during the course of the year.

Lets look at TFC

I would say that at the beginning of the year the realistic goals for the team were

1) Win the Canadian Cup and be the Canadian team represntaive for the Concacef club tourney

2) Improve on the teams performance from 2007 and strive towards making the playoffs

IF the season were to end today, how as TFC Fared?

1) I think we would all agree that it was a major disappointment that TFC didn't win the CC. Their record vs Montreal and Vancouver was 1-1-2 (5 out of a possible 12 points).
I believe the majority of us thought TFC would advance in this tournament so this goal/target wasn't met

2) Has this team improved from last year? Last year TFC came 13 out of 13 teams. The ended up with 25 points and missed the playoffs.

If the season were to end today, TFC would not make the playoffs. Sure we have 22 points after 18 games but the relevant statistic is where we sit in the standings. Currnetly we are 12th out of 14 teams. Only one point ahead of Colorado and 4 points ahead of the expansion team in SJ.

In other words the other teams in the league have improved as much as TFC if not more. The problems we had last year (lack of scoring and the inability to win on the road) are the same problems we had last year.

In my opinion at this point in the season we haven't met our goals. If things don't change in the remaining 12 games than this season will be viewed as a dissapointment.

So should the house be swept clean?

I believe that when you don't meet your goals/targets change is warranted. Should it be Mo, Carver or both? Should there be a house cleaning of players?

I don't think it should be both because early in the franchise history of the team you need some continuity. Mo or Carver (one of them should still remain next year)

My argument for Mo staying next year is the following:

1) Mo has played in the league, he has coached in the league and now has managed in the league. In other words he is familiar with the league and what it takes to win. He also has the realtionships with other GM's and league officials.

2) I believe that although Mo hasn't delivered on all his promises (i.e striker) he has done a good job in bringing in players like Guevera and Ricketts and has built one of the top mid fields in the league. I believe that with the players he has brought in that we should have a better record.

3)Mo continues to do a good job with the drafts and stockpiling on draft picks. All the first round picks he has been able to pick up thru trades will benefit the team in future years.

Players

I believe it is time to move forward without some of the current players

1) Cunny - a big disappointmnet. A belive part of the problem is that he is playing in the wrong sytem in TO. Nevertheless his services and big contract 250k are not needed. If Mo is unable to trade him this year, he should be cut by next year
2) Robert and his big salary have been a disppointment. He has been average for the team and I believe you can sign average players with less baggage for less money.
3) Dicchio - this hurts becasue I'm a Dichio fan and appreciate his heart. However he has slowed down and continues to battle health problems. Concussions are serious and even if he does come back I just don't think he will be the same player.

I think the team would bet better to use the money from Dichio/Robert and Cunny to sign 1 or 2 better players.

I would move Dichio into a coaching postion (assistant coach). He has the respect of his fellow teammates, the respect of the fans and the media. I think he would be a good fit.

RedsYNWA
08-07-2008, 10:26 AM
^^ Good post

trane
08-07-2008, 01:27 PM
I am Canadian and Jloome. I have no words your answers are facile, canned and predictable.

I will say only this I am not in a panic. But what I am seeing right now is an organization that is fundamentaly onsound. If they do not prove me wrong we should consider cleaning house. Again this is a new organization. We need to be sure that the foundation that we build on is solid. We have to ask ourselfs wether it is. You answer with contempt, and disrispect. Quite honeslty I do not care. If things do not changes, and we do not take the appropriate steps I will be proven right.

You can call my ideas horseshit, and tell me to sit my ass down, I do not care. I am with Exiled and Dirk this acceptance of mediocraty, and passing it of as patiance and wisdom is realy irritating.

As Dirk pointed out when did I say that we should win a trophy this year? I said we have enough talent to make the playoffs, if we do not reach that goal, or if we do not improve considerably not just in play but in results, we shuold clean house, or at least consider doing so. I have asked this over and over again, is it too much to expect to make the playoffs, when prety well of team make them, and the league, is hardly the strongest?

trane
08-07-2008, 01:50 PM
It is not only the winning, or lack there of that has me concerned but the level of overall team play. I have to say this I thought that the Impact played better as a team with less talent. I am big on good, solid simple team play on which you can slowly build toward a championship. I am just not sure if we have it. This is a long strech without good results. It has me worried, and if it continues my answer, would be changes have to be made.

RPB_Brantford_08
08-07-2008, 01:54 PM
It is not only the winning, or lack there of that has me concerned but the level of overall team play. I have to say this I thought that the Impact played better as a team with less talent. I am big on good, solid simple team play on which you can slowly build toward a championship. I am just not sure if we have it. This is a long strech without good results. It has me worried, and if it continues my answer, would be changes have to be made.


How long have the Impact been a team...10 years at least, and you expect TFC to be level after 2? stop the grass smoking. No changes
are need at management level, jst the player level and that takes a bit of time...get real,

SLBuu
08-07-2008, 02:05 PM
do you think the way San Jose are playing they could make the playoffs next year...?

ExiledRed
08-07-2008, 02:06 PM
do you think the way San Jose are playing they could make the playoffs next year...?

They could still do better than us this season regardless

SLBuu
08-07-2008, 02:19 PM
one fact everyone seems to overlook in this league is that its so up and down. You can be last for one half of the season and than jump into playoff position with 3-4 wins.

not to long ago we were third in the league, now we're at the bottom. I say let's just wait and see how the team ends the season before we start passing judgment.

giambac
08-07-2008, 02:27 PM
It is not only the winning, or lack there of that has me concerned but the level of overall team play. I have to say this I thought that the Impact played better as a team with less talent. I am big on good, solid simple team play on which you can slowly build toward a championship. I am just not sure if we have it. This is a long strech without good results. It has me worried, and if it continues my answer, would be changes have to be made.

Why is everyone all of a sudden getting concerned????:confused::confused:

I've been saying it for the past 12 games , for the past 2 months, this team doesn't look like a cohesive unit out there.

With or without a striker, a team as you said that plays a good simple game should have had some positive results. We don't

AL-MO
08-07-2008, 02:30 PM
Noone is asking for a championship this season. But making the playoffs was a realistic goal. If we fail to make them, its a FAILED season.

We lose this weekend, we could be in last place, with San Jose (yes thats right a fucking expansion team) nipping at our heals at the league wide table.

Regardless of what contribution you think Dickov would have made, if Mo doesn't make improvements to the roster by the end of the transfer window, and we DON'T make the playoffs, changes have to be made.

AL-MO
08-07-2008, 02:31 PM
Why is everyone all of a sudden getting concerned????:confused::confused:

I've been saying it for the past 12 games , for the past 2 months, this team doesn't look like a cohesive unit out there.

With or without a striker, a team as you said that plays a good simple game should have had some positive results. We don't


Give credit where credit is due, you have been saying this for a while.

Although it probably got lost in your postion on Carver :p

SLBuu
08-07-2008, 02:32 PM
I am big on good, solid simple team play on which you can slowly build toward a championship.

is 1.5 years too slow for you?

trane
08-07-2008, 06:14 PM
^ Do you think that our team is playing like it has the basics down? At home they are OK, but on the road they look like total shit. The point is without the basics, we can wait ten years and we will still not have a winning team.

rocktml
08-07-2008, 07:14 PM
who who who....It's our 2 year!!!! come on now

ricciboy
08-07-2008, 08:09 PM
I love the Nintendo generation and their short attention span and demanding instant gratification


remeber the powerglove

SLBuu
08-07-2008, 10:03 PM
^ Do you think that our team is playing like it has the basics down? At home they are OK, but on the road they look like total shit. The point is without the basics, we can wait ten years and we will still not have a winning team.

well obviously they play like crap on the road.... no argument there.

but do you really think uprooting our team with the difficulties we have now is the answer? Don't you think that would bring us back to square one with having to get everyone to gel together all over again. We have a core as it is, they have only been together for a short period of time (considering). And when they have been gelling well, they have put a show on for us. why in such a rush to overhaul everything?

and the team isn't an original six, they still need to establish themselves.

red-man
08-07-2008, 10:32 PM
^good post above and from giambac...

how are we ever going to be consistent if we sack the manager/board ever 1 or 2 years if we don't make the playoffs?? it takes time...for me, if we finish with more points at the end of the season than we did last year, we have progressed...new players have come in, new manager, injuries/suspensions, olympics, friendlies are all factors (not excuses) but to expect to make the playoffs in our 2nd year just because we have talent on paper is just not realistic...

I_AM_CANADIAN
08-08-2008, 11:03 AM
I am Canadian and Jloome. I have no words your answers are facile, canned and predictable.

I will say only this I am not in a panic. But what I am seeing right now is an organization that is fundamentaly onsound. If they do not prove me wrong we should consider cleaning house. Again this is a new organization. We need to be sure that the foundation that we build on is solid. We have to ask ourselfs wether it is. You answer with contempt, and disrispect. Quite honeslty I do not care. If things do not changes, and we do not take the appropriate steps I will be proven right.

You can call my ideas horseshit, and tell me to sit my ass down, I do not care. I am with Exiled and Dirk this acceptance of mediocraty, and passing it of as patiance and wisdom is realy irritating.

As Dirk pointed out when did I say that we should win a trophy this year? I said we have enough talent to make the playoffs, if we do not reach that goal, or if we do not improve considerably not just in play but in results, we shuold clean house, or at least consider doing so. I have asked this over and over again, is it too much to expect to make the playoffs, when prety well of team make them, and the league, is hardly the strongest?
Listen, man... the only teams in this league that aren't mediocre are Houston and New England. MLS has a salary cap, and a very restrictive one at that, which has the effect of keeping teams essentially on a level playing field.

Secondly, it is asking a bit much for a team to be in the playoffs in only their second season in this league. RSL were shit for years before they got the mixture of depth and quality that's needed to have a winning season. It doesn't take a genius to see that while we have a lot of very good players, we haven't got the depth in our starting 11 to compete, never mind on the bench. Tyrone Marshall shouldn't be starting at his age, and Jeff Cunningham belongs in the reserves. Not to mention, we haven't got a striker. You're completely overreacting.

As for this whole thing of no commitment, have you ever played a full league season of soccer? I have, at a fairly high level, and I can tell you that when a team isn't getting along or players are not committed, it's very obvious. Guys will stroll around, they won't talk to their teammates, they'll just shoot the ball and not pass, they don't care if they get scored on or lose, they spend all their time trying to dribble past people instead of trying to set up attacking moves. I'm not seeing any of that here, so I'm not worried.

And as for Mo, he's been trying to bring in players all season long, but one, we have artificial turf, two, we're an MLS side, Cristiano Ronaldo and Lionel Messi are not going to come here, so get over it .:rolleyes:

trane
08-08-2008, 04:11 PM
This is my final post on this thread;
1. I do not expect Cristiano Ronaldo or Lionel Messi.
2. I expect a solid team play.
3. I do not think that the team has been awfull this year, I think that we have improved, and that we have better players.
4. However, we are going through a terrible stretch in terms of points, if we do not change this soon, the season will not be a significant improvement from last year.
5. I like our players, for the most part.
6. I like Carver.
7. I have mixed feelings about Mo. On the whole I have liked what has been done, but I do not always like how long it takes him to do it [ I understand that this may be out of his control at times]
8. If we do not recover soon and have a stronger finish then we did last year, it would be foolish not to consider if we have the right leadership in place.

trane
09-23-2008, 03:43 PM
Over a month since I posted this an not much has changed. There is still some very faint hope, but if we do not win this weekend it is clearly time to start working on next season.

BuSaPuNk
09-23-2008, 03:46 PM
I think it's already time to start working on next season. Hopefully they can get the grass installed, and scout a good DP.

RPB_Brantford_08
09-23-2008, 04:34 PM
Mo said he had a 5 year plan in the beginning. I said I would hold him to that plan.

I stick by my words. If you go firing your coach/gm/etc every year or two you'll never have the confidence or chemistry that gets built up over time and the relationships that coaches build with the players.

exactly, the 5 year plan must be kept going cause in 2012 TO gets to host the MLS cup final, wouldn't it be nice have a strong TFC in it?

TFCREDNWHITE
09-23-2008, 05:11 PM
exactly, the 5 year plan must be kept going cause in 2012 TO gets to host the MLS cup final, wouldn't it be nice have a strong TFC in it?

Is this true!?!!? I don't remember hearing about this....

RPB_Brantford_08
09-23-2008, 05:17 PM
Is this true!?!!? I don't remember hearing about this....


ir was part of the "deal" when the joined the league they would host the MLS cup on or before 2012~~

AL-MO
09-23-2008, 05:19 PM
Its going to be one cold ass MLS Cup final if they have it @ BMO!

RPB_Brantford_08
09-23-2008, 05:21 PM
Its going to be one cold ass MLS Cup final if they have it @ BMO!


But if TFC are there, will you really care about the weather:D:D
it could be a arctic blast i will still be there..

joel
09-23-2008, 05:33 PM
Trane,

this topic is great for discussion because you will get people on opposite sides of the spectrum. Some will want a complete overhaul, otherwise will want no changes.

Here is my take on it.

All successful companies/organizations whether they are public or private entitites or sport entities for that matter should set realistic goals/targets at the beginning of the year. It is these goals/targets which are then used as the benchmarks for evaluating how succesful the organaization (team) has been during the course of the year.

Lets look at TFC

I would say that at the beginning of the year the realistic goals for the team were

1) Win the Canadian Cup and be the Canadian team represntaive for the Concacef club tourney

2) Improve on the teams performance from 2007 and strive towards making the playoffs

IF the season were to end today, how as TFC Fared?

1) I think we would all agree that it was a major disappointment that TFC didn't win the CC. Their record vs Montreal and Vancouver was 1-1-2 (5 out of a possible 12 points).
I believe the majority of us thought TFC would advance in this tournament so this goal/target wasn't met

2) Has this team improved from last year? Last year TFC came 13 out of 13 teams. The ended up with 25 points and missed the playoffs.

If the season were to end today, TFC would not make the playoffs. Sure we have 22 points after 18 games but the relevant statistic is where we sit in the standings. Currnetly we are 12th out of 14 teams. Only one point ahead of Colorado and 4 points ahead of the expansion team in SJ.

In other words the other teams in the league have improved as much as TFC if not more. The problems we had last year (lack of scoring and the inability to win on the road) are the same problems we had last year.

In my opinion at this point in the season we haven't met our goals. If things don't change in the remaining 12 games than this season will be viewed as a dissapointment.

So should the house be swept clean?

I believe that when you don't meet your goals/targets change is warranted. Should it be Mo, Carver or both? Should there be a house cleaning of players?

I don't think it should be both because early in the franchise history of the team you need some continuity. Mo or Carver (one of them should still remain next year)

My argument for Mo staying next year is the following:

1) Mo has played in the league, he has coached in the league and now has managed in the league. In other words he is familiar with the league and what it takes to win. He also has the realtionships with other GM's and league officials.

2) I believe that although Mo hasn't delivered on all his promises (i.e striker) he has done a good job in bringing in players like Guevera and Ricketts and has built one of the top mid fields in the league. I believe that with the players he has brought in that we should have a better record.

3)Mo continues to do a good job with the drafts and stockpiling on draft picks. All the first round picks he has been able to pick up thru trades will benefit the team in future years.

Players

I believe it is time to move forward without some of the current players

1) Cunny - a big disappointmnet. A belive part of the problem is that he is playing in the wrong sytem in TO. Nevertheless his services and big contract 250k are not needed. If Mo is unable to trade him this year, he should be cut by next year
2) Robert and his big salary have been a disppointment. He has been average for the team and I believe you can sign average players with less baggage for less money.
3) Dicchio - this hurts becasue I'm a Dichio fan and appreciate his heart. However he has slowed down and continues to battle health problems. Concussions are serious and even if he does come back I just don't think he will be the same player.

I think the team would bet better to use the money from Dichio/Robert and Cunny to sign 1 or 2 better players.

I would move Dichio into a coaching postion (assistant coach). He has the respect of his fellow teammates, the respect of the fans and the media. I think he would be a good fit.

Hey! Giambac made a well reasoned, well written post? My god! Must be taking his medication nowadays :D

RPB_RED_NATION_RPB
09-23-2008, 05:40 PM
hey ..if TFC beat houston on sat...and Dallas beat DCU....are we still in this....??

:drunk:

Marco2K
09-23-2008, 06:30 PM
HEY RPB RED NATION

If my aunt had balls she would be my uncle..lol

J .
09-23-2008, 07:29 PM
Mo said he had a 5 year plan in the beginning. I said I would hold him to that plan.

I stick by my words. If you go firing your coach/gm/etc every year or two you'll never have the confidence or chemistry that gets built up over time and the relationships that coaches build with the players.


The end

TFC-4-Life
09-23-2008, 08:14 PM
How do I put this... I COMPLETELY DISAGREE...

Its Carver's first year, with a team that had a huge turnover... If we are to fire coaches and managers this quickly, we'll NEVER be successfull...

Building a winner takes time... That doesn't mean we have to be content with losing, but success does not happen overnight...

Carts...

I also agree

giambac
09-23-2008, 08:16 PM
Bullshit. I see it with my eyes every week it is a shit league, you can convince yourself overwise all you want but in reality, it is a poorly played game. No game nor any team shoudl be ever be taken for granted, but shity parity should not be taken for quality. This is not a quality league. Anyway I do not give a shit about LA and NY nor any other city. I give a shit about Toronto. I give a shit about putting a competitive team on the field to represent our city. We did so at home in the early part of the season, we have failed to do so on the road in 1 1/2 years, and we have been disapointg at home in the past strech. I will tell you what I see. The truth is the truth. The MLS is shit, and despite this we are failing to compete. It is disapointing.

Carver is not making a mistake in his approach, but his team is failing to deliver on the field. Unfotunalty he will have to pay the price if this continues. That is the reality of being a coach.

What is the saying??????
The coach ha slost the locker room......He ha slost his palyers.

Time for change is long over due.

I'm with you Trane on this issue.
Bottom line this is a shit league, perhaps one of teh worst professional leagues on this planet. The fact that we have won only onc esince June ( almost 4 months) is PATHETIC

giambac
09-23-2008, 08:20 PM
to sweep clean would only mean next year we're an expansion team again.

the team has improved from last year. as long as I see improvement from one year to the next in the point total, that's enough to keep it going as it is. If the team stays the same two years in a row or regresses in # of points, then changes may be made.

What are you talking about?

This team is worse tahn an expansion team.

this team can't win ate anymore (lucky if we get ties) and they defineytly can't win on the road. I think our solution is to find anothe rplace to play:(

Draracle
09-23-2008, 08:23 PM
people who want to burn the house at every failure shouldn't be sports fans. Infact, I would argue they are not sports fans, just posers.

TorontoBlades
09-23-2008, 08:34 PM
^^ Chicago Fire won the Supporters Shield and MLS Cup in their first season I do belive. ;)

In an MLS where Cunningham can lead the league in scoring....that would never happen in this league

LucaGol
09-23-2008, 08:37 PM
people who want to burn the house at every failure shouldn't be sports fans. Infact, I would argue they are not sports fans, just posers.

Im honestly not trying to be antagonistic, but how many years of a team failing would you "burn the house" as you phrased it?


If so many of you are pleased as punch that we're sitting in last place of the MLS for a second straight season ... what goals do you think would be appropriate to set for next season?

One more point, two more points ... playoffs heaven forbid?

Im trying to gauge what grade of improvement that the more optimistic fans are expecting from a successful regime.

LucaGol
09-23-2008, 08:39 PM
In an MLS where Cunningham can lead the league in scoring....that would never happen in this league

What, in the MLS where Cunningham has scored 4 goals in 3 games?

That one?

:confused:

Blizzard
09-23-2008, 09:00 PM
What, in the MLS where Cunningham has scored 4 goals in 3 games?

That one?

:confused:

Four goals in six games I do believe.

B

Kickit09
09-23-2008, 09:23 PM
people who want to burn the house at every failure shouldn't be sports fans. Infact, I would argue they are not sports fans, just posers.


are cheerleaders real sports fans?

Draracle
09-23-2008, 09:26 PM
are cheerleaders real sports fans?

? TFC doesn't have cheerleaders. and I don't think they have opinions.

Draracle
09-23-2008, 09:49 PM
Im honestly not trying to be antagonistic, but how many years of a team failing would you "burn the house" as you phrased it?


If so many of you are pleased as punch that we're sitting in last place of the MLS for a second straight season ... what goals do you think would be appropriate to set for next season?

One more point, two more points ... playoffs heaven forbid?

Im trying to gauge what grade of improvement that the more optimistic fans are expecting from a successful regime.

Dude, I am pissed we are in last place -- I don't know where you get the clue that I am otherwise. But I am not going to crucify my team because we had two lousy years.

We had a shite team last year. We made some changes, had a hell of a time getting the players we wanted, finally put something together and still failed. We are better, but the whole league is better this year and we are still in last. If we push the reset button, what place will be in next year? Last.

I would expect some progress next year, hopefully a better team effort. Though we have yet to set a core group that plays well together, so I don't expect much more than a playoff birth at best. And I think that should be our goal.

I think a team in a North American league can legitimately stay at or near the bottom for 3-4 years through no serious fault of their own. After that the parity designs of the league kicks in (draft picks mature, cash transfers, ageing/dismantlement of veteran teams). Can you imagine if the Penguins had scrapped their team in 05/06, after yet another horrible year? Man those guys SUCKED. The next year they turned a cronic 30% win rate into a 30% lose rate.

The MLS is a slightly different league because it is growing so fast. Unlike the other leagues, the MLS is getting better and better and teams are getting more and more resources to build the team. Which makes it easier for the best teams to fight the parity designs of the league and stay on top. And unlike the other NA leagues, we aren't the best league in the world. Which also hurts developing teams as holding good, young players is harder than holding good, old players.

The point is we have made huge strides this year -- if you can't see that your didn't see last year -- and we have a few key pieces in place. We will build again next year, hopefully gaining a few more pieces and a mid-table ranking. Hopefully in 3-4 years we have a team that can contend for a title.

Axeman
09-24-2008, 01:30 AM
How do I put this... I COMPLETELY DISAGREE...

Its Carver's first year, with a team that had a huge turnover... If we are to fire coaches and managers this quickly, we'll NEVER be successfull...

Building a winner takes time... That doesn't mean we have to be content with losing, but success does not happen overnight...

Carts...

Couldn't agree more! :hurray:

Axeman
09-24-2008, 01:33 AM
What's with this MLS is a shit league stuff, if you dont like it that much dont fucking watch it!

Cashcleaner
09-24-2008, 01:39 AM
I'm adamant that Mo will be out the door at the completion of the season. Carver will stay on for another year and we'll see then how he can do by himself. You can't really expect TFC to release Carver after one season at the helm with his hands tied behind his back during the Superdraft and post-season transactions.

Luanda
09-24-2008, 05:27 AM
SOO MUCH complaining.
Just take a good look at how long it has taken the Montreal Canadien to rebuild into a contender again, never mind a 2nd year expansion team!!
All I want is: more seating, roofing, grass, and a team that imporves from year to year into a contender.

trane
09-24-2008, 07:34 AM
The issue is not that we have not won. The issue is that we look terrible, and that there is little sign of improvement. Again it is easy to say if you complain you are not a supporter. But I love this team and this city, and I want to see us move forward and improve. It just struck me about a month ago, when I started this thread that we seemed stuck. Read my posts. I am not angry nor to I think Carver is the worse coach ever, in fact I support what he wants to do. My problem is that the results are simply not there on the filed, not just in terms of wins and scoring, but other all play. Therefore, I just think that the question has to be asked. Particularly since, in the past month nothing has improved. Maybe the formula is just not right for us at this time. We do not have five year. We can wait for five years, if there are tangible and significant signs of improvement. But any reasonable and realistic observer would likely say that there have not tangible or significant improvements from last year to this year. There has been some improvement, certainly. But it is marginal and insufficient in my opinion. I am not against keeping Carver but he will have to produce results sooner rather then later. Mo at this point has to go, if not for anything else then to show that the organization is serious. Mo has made some good moves. Ricketts, Dichio and to a lesser extent Barrett are three that come to mind, but on the whole he has put together a unsatisfactory, un-cohesive, undisciplined and uncreative team, that does not defend nor attack at an acceptable level. Second season or not, it can not be accepted. Even if we had not made the playoffs but we played better I would have been happy. We are not as good as we could and should be at home, and we are awful on the road. They may change my mind if they show me something in these last 5 games.

trane
09-24-2008, 07:44 AM
I hope that we show strong in the last three games. I think that we can. But lets get it going, time is running out.

I would feel confident, if Dichio is upfront leading the team, that at least we would fight in these last games.

Robbo is another of Mo picks that I am a great fan of despite the criticism that he gets on the boards.

Shakes McQueen
09-24-2008, 08:14 AM
Dude, I am pissed we are in last place -- I don't know where you get the clue that I am otherwise. But I am not going to crucify my team because we had two lousy years.

We had a shite team last year. We made some changes, had a hell of a time getting the players we wanted, finally put something together and still failed. We are better, but the whole league is better this year and we are still in last. If we push the reset button, what place will be in next year? Last.

I would expect some progress next year, hopefully a better team effort. Though we have yet to set a core group that plays well together, so I don't expect much more than a playoff birth at best. And I think that should be our goal.

I think a team in a North American league can legitimately stay at or near the bottom for 3-4 years through no serious fault of their own. After that the parity designs of the league kicks in (draft picks mature, cash transfers, ageing/dismantlement of veteran teams). Can you imagine if the Penguins had scrapped their team in 05/06, after yet another horrible year? Man those guys SUCKED. The next year they turned a cronic 30% win rate into a 30% lose rate.

The MLS is a slightly different league because it is growing so fast. Unlike the other leagues, the MLS is getting better and better and teams are getting more and more resources to build the team. Which makes it easier for the best teams to fight the parity designs of the league and stay on top. And unlike the other NA leagues, we aren't the best league in the world. Which also hurts developing teams as holding good, young players is harder than holding good, old players.

The point is we have made huge strides this year -- if you can't see that your didn't see last year -- and we have a few key pieces in place. We will build again next year, hopefully gaining a few more pieces and a mid-table ranking. Hopefully in 3-4 years we have a team that can contend for a title.

This post should be mandatory reading here.

- Scott

druid
09-24-2008, 08:44 AM
For the people claiming progress...

You're off your nut.

There's no progress in coming last. Any year at the bottom is a disaster. Our squad is not measurable better than last years.

To clear up a few things: I am not not a hockey fan, I've been watching football for decades, and I'm not (usually) on drugs.

invictusTFC
09-24-2008, 08:56 AM
I think management did what they could to address the core needs of this team. We needed a playmaking midfielder, and we got one. We signed wingers and added depth at forward. What has hurt this team has been the inconsistent nature and efforts of the players. Our defense has been exposed as our greatest weakness, something that nobody would have conceived at the beginning of the season. When the season kicked, many people here were arguing that it was the only position in which we had some depth.
Mo has to address these two aspects during this offseason. I like Jimmy Brennan, but he isn't the kind of team leader that can rally this team. He leads by example, but we need to supplement that with more direct leadership. Players have been going through the motions in too many games this season, and they need to be made accountable.
This teams defense has to be reconstructed. Velez and Marshall simply aren't good enough. Velez is too inconsistent, and Marshall has shown his age. Mo needs to recruit 2 new CB's for next season. Dunivant when healthy should be our starting LB, and Wynne needs to learn how to defend.

Beach_Red
09-24-2008, 08:56 AM
I'm adamant that Mo will be out the door at the completion of the season. Carver will stay on for another year and we'll see then how he can do by himself. You can't really expect TFC to release Carver after one season at the helm with his hands tied behind his back during the Superdraft and post-season transactions.

In most ways, Mo is already, "out the door," in terms of running the team. Carver has been very up front about the fact that Mo isn't interfering at all. They can make a very good management team - Mo is good at scouting north American talent - which a team needs to be successful in this league, and he can be a good buffer between ownership and the coach. Signing international players will get easier as the team becomes more established. It'll become a lot easier when the salary cap gets increased.

There have been some complicated roster moves because of the 'unique' league rules and Mo has handled them all very well - he does know the MLS and it's not run like any other league in the world.

But the team has to start looking better during games, they have to play at least up to their potential - and a little beyond would show some real coaching.

Give these guys a full year to work together and I think they'll deliver some real quality.

Tintin
09-24-2008, 08:57 AM
For the people claiming progress...

You're off your nut.

There's no progress in coming last. Any year at the bottom is a disaster. Our squad is not measurable better than last years.

To clear up a few things: I am not not a hockey fan, I've been watching football for decades, and I'm not (usually) on drugs.


I fully agree. Plus what happens if San Jose makes the playoffs in year one! that is unacceptable. i could understand if we were making progress or building through youth but we are not. We keep signing old playesr and then trading them or releasing them...

Time to let Mo go....Carver deserves a second year but bybe bye Mo.

Beach_Red
09-24-2008, 08:59 AM
To clear up a few things: I am not not a hockey fan,

That's too bad, because that Penguins analogy is a good one.

Blazer
09-24-2008, 09:15 AM
Stupid thread. “I like what Carver and Mo are doing but they have to go”. Senseless.

This is not yet a traditional sporting franchise that has developed such a winning attitude and mentality within the team's clubhouse, fans, and city that we can accept nothing short of a playoff birth. Give it some time to grow and give Carver and Johnson the benefit of the doubt at least for the time being. The fruits of their labour are right around the corner and even if it doesn’t work out – understand that this mess is a work in progress that cannot be established overnight.

Slow down and enjoy the sex rather than blowin’ your wad prematurely for the sake of baby Jesus Christ.

druid
09-24-2008, 09:21 AM
That's too bad, because that Penguins analogy is a good one.

Hmmm. Remind me again, who did we get this year in draft? How are they working out?

druid
09-24-2008, 09:29 AM
This is not yet a traditional sporting franchise that has developed such a winning attitude and mentality within the team's clubhouse, fans, and city that we can accept nothing short of a playoff birth.

This is an over simplification that changes the argument, at least my argument which is NOT:

We didn't make the play offs = Fire Mo! Fire Carver!

And IS:

Don't give the guy who got us knocked out of the CL pre-qualifiers and looks to be delivering another last place finish a new contract.

And if you are going to give him a new contract wait till the end of season so that you can at least pretend you care about team performance and give it with a strong dressing down in the media: must see improvements, supporters deserve more, etc. I'd like to thing that this club is run in a sound manner. That should include performance objectives. Not meeting those objectives should have consequences.

Beach_Red
09-24-2008, 09:38 AM
I'd like to thing that this club is run in a sound manner. That should include performance objectives. Not meeting those objectives should have consequences.

Yes, of course. Though, it would be an oversimplification to look at nothing more than point totals this early in a team's existence.

All my examples would be hockey, which you don't follow (I can tell when you ask how draft picks are working out in their first year, that's cool, I'm losing interest in hockey, anyway) but this league has a very similar structure and I've seen a lot of expansion teams in hockey. Some have started fast and faded and some had a slow build.

We'll be able to tell a lot about TFC over the last few games of this season. It could still go either way.

druid
09-24-2008, 09:45 AM
Some have started fast and faded and some had a slow build.


Which does this look like to you?
http://www.settingthetable.info/stt/tfc.html


We'll be able to tell a lot about TFC over the last few games of this season. It could still go either way.

Either way the contract extension should not have been awarded until the end of the season.

trane
09-24-2008, 09:51 AM
Stupid thread. “I like what Carver and Mo are doing but they have to go”. Senseless.

This is not yet a traditional sporting franchise that has developed such a winning attitude and mentality within the team's clubhouse, fans, and city that we can accept nothing short of a playoff birth. Give it some time to grow and give Carver and Johnson the benefit of the doubt at least for the time being. The fruits of their labour are right around the corner and even if it doesn’t work out – understand that this mess is a work in progress that is not/ cannot be established overnight.

Slow down and enjoy the sex rather than blowin’ your wad prematurely for the sake of baby Jesus Christ.

No I did not say, I like what Mo and Carver are doing, but they have to go. This thread was started over a month a go, and what I said was, I like what Carver is trying to do, but if it does not start working we need to consider letting go, and that I like Mo as a personality but I am unsure of his ability, as his signings have delivered mixed results at best.

Over a months later, my opinion is that Carver methods continue to be ineffective, but that he has five games to hopefully proof me wrong. I am not totally against him being in charge, next year, but the clock should start ticking. As for Mo, the results continue to be mixed, Barrett was a good signing, Ruiz so far has been terrible. CB has not been addressed, and the team as the whole is under performing. This is not personal, but the team seems direction less now, as it did over a month ago, if that does not change we have to consider a change in its leadership.

Further, I believe that a well organized hard working and smart team, can beat a more talented one. I like Carvers philosophy in that he seems to be trying to build this kind of team. However, it clearly seems not to be working.

I would be the happiest man in the city if they showed me different in the last five games. I hope that they do.

Maple Leaf Red
09-24-2008, 09:57 AM
The internet has exposed sports fans as ridiculously fickle. So we fire Mo and Carver after two years and one respectively. They've started a club from scratch, never had a settled roster, lost players that are having huge impacts on the new expansion team because of the turf, and then what? We hire a new coach and GM and give them what? Less than two full seasons right? Because they won't be building from scratch. So then what? If they miss the playoffs next year we can them right? And on and on and on.

Is it really that hard to take a long-term outlook on things?

Beach_Red
09-24-2008, 10:10 AM
Which does this look like to you?
http://www.settingthetable.info/stt/tfc.html



Either way the contract extension should not have been awarded until the end of the season.

This league is too much in flux to know which kind of expansion team this is. The league wants to build on US talent coming out of the NCAA but the quality isn't there yet (Julius James would probably be progressing a lot better coming off the bench for Tebily instead of starting, but there you go) so they still need to bring in plenty of international players. This team was turned down by almost every player they approached, but that won't happen as often as they get more established - plenty of players in other sports have passed on playing for expansion teams, we have to expect that for a while.

Most people would agree that the MLS is much higher quality now than it was five years ago and the next five years will see some more big improvements. Right now, teams can still turn on a dime.

As for the contract extensions, it's a risk, for sure. It's a negotiation, there's two sides. It's not like the team is in total control. We don't know what really went on, why the extensions were given what other teams were interested, what other managers were interested (or were clear that they weren't interested) what kind of money was being offered.

That's sports, you take risks.

Blazer
09-24-2008, 10:19 AM
The internet has exposed sports fans as ridiculously fickle. So we fire Mo and Carver after two years and one respectively. They've started a club from scratch, never had a settled roster, lost players that are having huge impacts on the new expansion team because of the turf, and then what? We hire a new coach and GM and give them what? Less than two full seasons right? Because they won't be building from scratch. So then what? If they miss the playoffs next year we can them right? And on and on and on.

Is it really that hard to take a long-term outlook on things?

Thank you.

Damien
09-24-2008, 10:28 AM
I think what really "fuels the fire" is that San Jose is looking decent in it's first season, and we're still crap in our 2nd season.

Oldtimer
09-24-2008, 10:32 AM
I'm of two minds:

On one side, it's clear that Mo and Carver have failed to deliver a significantly improved team this year. It might be that another year could deliver the team that we deserve, however, I'm not sure that it would not be yet another wasted year.

On the other hand, instability and a revolving door for coaches and GMs would really damage a young franchise. One only has to look at NY to see what their turnover has done to that team.

If the MLSE board decides to continue the present team management, they should hold Mo/Carver to a realistic plan that gives a decent chance at improvement.

trane
09-24-2008, 10:33 AM
The internet has exposed sports fans as ridiculously fickle. So we fire Mo and Carver after two years and one respectively. They've started a club from scratch, never had a settled roster, lost players that are having huge impacts on the new expansion team because of the turf, and then what? We hire a new coach and GM and give them what? Less than two full seasons right? Because they won't be building from scratch. So then what? If they miss the playoffs next year we can them right? And on and on and on.

Is it really that hard to take a long-term outlook on things?

I want to take a long-term outlook on things, my issue is that we need to be sure that we are heading in the right direction. I do not mean just are we getting more points, but are there signs that suggest that if we continue of the road we are one we should be better one day. I respect your opinion, other then on issues of which team from a certain city is better, what do you think are there real signs of us going in the right direction? I just do not want to be in year 4 and 5 and then realize that the direction was all wrong from the outset.

Pachuco
09-24-2008, 10:43 AM
For the people claiming progress...

You're off your nut.

There's no progress in coming last. Any year at the bottom is a disaster. Our squad is not measurable better than last years.

To clear up a few things: I am not not a hockey fan, I've been watching football for decades, and I'm not (usually) on drugs.

fuck this is so true. I love the people that say, well we have 2 more points then last season so I'm satisfied...HAHAHA. But yet, it's a 5 year plan? if we increase by 2 points every season we would still finish last in 3 years from now, WAKE UP.

trane
09-24-2008, 11:50 AM
I'm of two minds:

On one side, it's clear that Mo and Carver have failed to deliver a significantly improved team this year. It might be that another year could deliver the team that we deserve, however, I'm not sure that it would not be yet another wasted year.

On the other hand, instability and a revolving door for coaches and GMs would really damage a young franchise. One only has to look at NY to see what their turnover has done to that team.

If the MLSE board decides to continue the present team management, they should hold Mo/Carver to a realistic plan that gives a decent chance at improvement.

Yours is a sensible position. I would agree with it.

ua-kozak_TFC
09-24-2008, 12:08 PM
You know what guys. I really hope that Mo isn't fired, not because i like what he is doing.... but just because i have no doubt that he is not competent enough to put a team deserving of the fans passion. And so all these Mo lovers are prooven wrong. At the end of next year it would be year 3 out of "5 year plan"... i think by that time if the team doens't make the play offs or improove substantially it will be evident that the management are incompetent. Because by year 3 you should be in the playoffs if you want to be a successful and a championship team by year 5, atleats that's my reasoning.

i predict an other offseason of jacking off for Mo until we get our ass handed to us in a preseason cup against USL teams or MLS reserves, ONLY then he will bring some players late as always just to quiete the crowd and give him 2 more month of peace and no criticism because the player is still adapting...

I really hope I am prooved wrong. But i have a strong feeling that i wont be...

giambac
09-24-2008, 01:36 PM
This thread is going back and forth.

Some feel this team hasn't progressed since last year (I fall into this group)

Others feel we have progressed. I'm not sure how this group measures progress. I mean in the standings we are dead last. As far as the brand of football, on most nights they play a dull, nonenergetic game.

Regardless, people will always have adifference in opinions and that's why we have this forum for discussion.

However, there is on ething that I would like to point all to everyone.

Back on June 21st TFC was playing KC at home. Our record was an impressive 6 W, 4L, and 2 ties. We were at the top of the league. We had also played 1 Canada Cup game and we defeated the MOntreal Impact in Montreal. Everything looked promising for this team.
On tthis particular game all of our International palyers were back from the national teams and ready to play. KC was at the bottom of the league. I said it back then that Carver should have used all the regualrs. The team was on a high an dthey were going places. If they started their regualrs they most likely would have won. Instaed Carver used his reserve palyers an dwe tied 0-0.

I said it back then, mark this date, mark this game, it will come back to haunt us. What ha shappened since? We hav ewon only once inour past 18 games including CC games and friendlies. June 21 was the beginning of the end of our season.

Beach_Red
09-24-2008, 01:50 PM
I said it back then, mark this date, mark this game, it will come back to haunt us. What ha shappened since? We hav ewon only once inour past 18 games including CC games and friendlies. June 21 was the beginning of the end of our season.

Yeah, yeah, we know, you keep pointing this out.

BUT,

the team looked crappy in Montreal, squeaking out a 1-0 win. Everybody talked about the problems then. We knew that winning record wouldn't hold as the season wore on. People were calling for all kinds of changes, the team was looking for a striker all over - offering contracts but no one was taking them. Robert, Cunningham just walking around out there, Tebily quit and went home. We could all see what was coming.

AND,

Since that KC game, when players return from international duty - even though the reserves won the last game - they are right back in the line-up. It almost seems like the team took your advice, but it didn't work.

invictusTFC
09-24-2008, 02:01 PM
Its funny how so much emphasis was placed on finding some scoring help, but inevitably it was our defense that let us down in the stretch. . In the early part of the season, when this team was successful, our defense was a pillar of strength, but as the season went on that pillar began to show some cracks and teams began to expose them. How many results did we blow in the last 15 minutes of a game?

giambac
09-24-2008, 02:02 PM
Yeah, yeah, we know, you keep pointing this out.

BUT,

the team looked crappy in Montreal, squeaking out a 1-0 win. Everybody talked about the problems then. We knew that winning record wouldn't hold as the season wore on. People were calling for all kinds of changes, the team was looking for a striker all over - offering contracts but no one was taking them. Robert, Cunningham just walking around out there, Tebily quit and went home. We could all see what was coming.

AND,

Since that KC game, when players return from international duty - even though the reserves won the last game - they are right back in the line-up. It almost seems like the team took your advice, but it didn't work.

My point is that it was the beginning of the end. Results prove I was correct.

The old saying don't change something which ain't broke. Carver shouldn't have change dthe lineup. The palyers lost respect and now it is eveident that Carver ha slost the locker room an dthe respect of his players. It is quite obvious that they don't play with heart anymore. the passion that was there at the start of the season is gone.

Why can't everyone see this?????

RPB_RED_NATION_RPB
09-24-2008, 02:17 PM
My point is that it was the beginning of the end. Results prove I was correct.

The old saying don't change something which ain't broke. Carver shouldn't have change dthe lineup. The palyers lost respect and now it is eveident that Carver ha slost the locker room an dthe respect of his players. It is quite obvious that they don't play with heart anymore. the passion that was there at the start of the season is gone.

Why can't everyone see this?????


why do you continue...to post the same issues day in and day out for the entire season.... WE get your point already...

If all you want us is to agree with you.....so you can move on to something new..THEN WE AGREE:D... Its getting a little repetivitve.. No?
!!!

End of!

Oldtimer
09-24-2008, 02:17 PM
Why can't everyone see this?????

Because it's not true?

Carver made a mistake taking an English tactic to MLS. It didn't work because the depth isn't there in MLS. It would work on an English team with a deep bench.

You decided based on this ONE error that he's a bum, and have called for his head ever since.

Other people have decided that one mistake doesn't make a bad coach. He just needs to learn how things work in MLS.

You can see he learned from his mistake (and it WAS a mistake, I'll grant you that), and now keeps his first squad. WHAT MORE DO YOU WANT?

invictusTFC
09-24-2008, 02:18 PM
My point is that it was the beginning of the end. Results prove I was correct.

The old saying don't change something which ain't broke. Carver shouldn't have change dthe lineup. The players lost respect and now it is evident that Carver has lost the locker room and the respect of his players. It is quite obvious that they don't play with heart anymore. the passion that was there at the start of the season is gone.

Why can't everyone see this?????

I don't know how you can make that claim without being involved in the everyday happenings of this team.

I agree that it seems that some players don't play with heart, but is that just an indication of their character? Guevara, is by far our most talented player, but rarely did his play inspire the players around him. He's definitely not a leader. Marshall disapointed me all season with his play. He didn't marshal that defense like Jimmy B did last season (no pun intended). Ricketts was a good addition, but he too was inconsistent from game to game. Robert had a bad reputation coming into this team which he justified with his performances. Thank God he was let go. In the end we had too many players vacationing out there. The leadership in that locker room needs to be questioned.

Jay1974
09-24-2008, 02:29 PM
why do you continue...to post the same issues day in and day out for the entire season.... WE get your point already...

If all you want us is to agree with you.....so you can move on to something new..THEN WE AGREE:D... Its getting a little repetivitve.. No?
!!!

End of!

RPB_RED_Nation finally got the point.

With Giambac it's not whether the team is playing well or poorly, whether it's Mo's fault & Carver's fault or just Carver's, it's that he thinks he's right and wants everyone to acknowlege it.

It's possible that that game way back tanked our season but it's more likely that we were already slipping and Carver saw it. He thought going with the same roster would send a message and get the boys going but it wasn't received.

giambac
09-24-2008, 02:32 PM
I don't know how you can make that claim without being involved in the everyday happenings of this team.

I agree that it seems that some players don't play with heart, but is that just an indication of their character? Guevara, is by far our most talented player, but rarely did his play inspire the players around him. He's definitely not a leader. Marshall disapointed me all season with his play. He didn't marshal that defense like Jimmy B did last season (no pun intended). Ricketts was a good addition, but he too was inconsistent from game to game. Robert had a bad reputation coming into this team which he justified with his performances. Thank God he was let go. In the end we had too many players vacationing out there. The leadership in that locker room needs to be questioned.

If what you are saying is correct and I do agree with some of the points, then how can people say that this team has progressed?
We arr in year 2 with just 5 games to go and you are saying that the leadership in the room needs to be questioned. I agree, and that's why I say this team hasn't progressed!!!

giambac
09-24-2008, 02:47 PM
RPB_RED_Nation finally got the point.

With Giambac it's not whether the team is playing well or poorly, whether it's Mo's fault & Carver's fault or just Carver's, it's that he thinks he's right and wants everyone to acknowlege it.

It's possible that that game way back tanked our season but it's more likely that we were already slipping and Carver saw it. He thought going with the same roster would send a message and get the boys going but it wasn't received.

Beleive me it's not about fault anymore for me.

It's about the team not playing well. It's about the team who on most nights don't show up to play. Every team goes through rough times during a season. There will always be games when the players don't play well for whatever reason. However, we are talking about 4 months of poor play now. there is no excuse for it.

I don't give a rat's ass who's fault it is but it just isn't acceptable. I just want the management of the team to do something to change what is happening. The fans and supporters of this team deserve better.

rocker
09-24-2008, 02:53 PM
Its funny how so much emphasis was placed on finding some scoring help, but inevitably it was our defense that let us down in the stretch. . In the early part of the season, when this team was successful, our defense was a pillar of strength, but as the season went on that pillar began to show some cracks and teams began to expose them. How many results did we blow in the last 15 minutes of a game?

but how many scoring chances did the team blow as well? Cunny had enough of em too.
Maybe if we had finished at least some (5???) of those easy chances, the problems of the defense wouldn't have been so great.
i think those defensive mistakes are magnified because of the lack of scoring. Games were always so close because forwards sucked, meaning that when the defense inevitably gave up a goal, it was a tough blow.

if i look down the table of GA, I see that TFC has only let in 2 more goals than NY, KC, FCD, Colorado, 1 more goal than NE. Basically the difference between NE and TFC in statistical terms is NE can finish. They have almost the same defensive record.

DC United has let in 8 more goals than TFC, Chivas has let in 2 more, LA has let in 16 more....

But TFC's problem still remains scoring (as it was last year). If the players that had scored before hadn't forgot how to score, or hadn't got injured, or hadn't disappeared for international duty, TFC may have had the 6 more goals that NY has on them. Cunningham alone could have done that for us if he cared.

In short, I explain this season like this: the defense improved enough to be competitive (maybe near average compared to being total shit last year), but the offensive players Mo brought in failed -- for whatever reasons -- to do what they should have done.
Some people put that blame of failure directly on Mo or Carver, for their choice of players, rather than on the players for failing to perform. I tend to side with the failing to perform argument, given that Cunningham and others had lots of opportunities to score easy (!) goals but didn't.

invictusTFC
09-24-2008, 02:55 PM
If what you are saying is correct and I do agree with some of the points, then how can people say that this team has progressed?
We arr in year 2 with just 5 games to go and you are saying that the leadership in the room needs to be questioned. I agree, and that's why I say this team hasn't progressed!!!

I think every move the team made this season was in an attempt to improve the team. The problem was that the players they brought in failed largely to live up to expectations.
We needed a play maker. Mo got Guevara,a former MVP in this league. However, although he's been arguably our best player, his form has been inconsistent. We only saw glimpses of what he can really bring to this team.
We needed a stud CB, and Mo got Tebily. Unfortunately he got hurt and homesick
We needed some wingers, and Mo brought in Robert and Ricketts. While Ricketts was inconsistent, Robert was an absolute disaster.
We needed some scoring and Mo brought in Ibby, Ruiz and Barrett. Ibby has a promising future. Barrett has been our best forward in the short time that he's been here, but he struggles with consistency too. Ruiz on the other hand, has shown very little for a player with his reputation and paycheck.

In the end, management tried their best to plug the holes on this team with some quality. Maybe they just got the wrong players especially when it comes to character.

olegunnar
09-24-2008, 03:00 PM
I think every move the team made this season was in an attempt to improve the team. The problem was that the players they brought in failed largely to live up to expectations.
We needed a play maker. Mo got Guevara,a former MVP in this league. However, although he's been arguably our best player, his form has been inconsistent. We only saw glimpses of what he can really bring to this team.
We needed a stud CB, and Mo got Tebily. Unfortunately he got hurt and homesick
We needed some wingers, and Mo brought in Robert and Ricketts. While Ricketts was inconsistent, Robert was an absolute disaster.
We needed some scoring and Mo brought in Ibby, Ruiz and Barrett. Ibby has a promising future. Barrett has been our best forward in the short time that he's been here, but he struggles with consistency too. Ruiz on the other hand, has shown very little for a player with his reputation and paycheck.

In the end, management tried their best to plug the holes on this team with some quality. Maybe they just got the wrong players especially when it comes to character.

So basically what you're saying is Mo did a bad job. Right?

ACSertL
09-24-2008, 03:04 PM
but how many scoring chances did the team blow as well? Cunny had enough of em too.
Maybe if we had finished at least some (5???) of those easy chances, the problems of the defense wouldn't have been so great.
i think those defensive mistakes are magnified because of the lack of scoring. Games were always so close because forwards sucked, meaning that when the defense inevitably gave up a goal, it was a tough blow.

if i look down the table of GA, I see that TFC has only let in 2 more goals than NY, KC, FCD, Colorado, 1 more goal than NE. Basically the difference between NE and TFC in statistical terms is NE can finish. They have almost the same defensive record.

DC United has let in 8 more goals than TFC, Chivas has let in 2 more, LA has let in 16 more....

But TFC's problem still remains scoring (as it was last year). If the players that had scored before hadn't forgot how to score, or hadn't got injured, or hadn't disappeared for international duty, TFC may have had the 6 more goals that NY has on them. Cunningham alone could have done that for us if he cared.

In short, I explain this season like this: the defense improved enough to be competitive (maybe near average compared to being total shit last year), but the offensive players Mo brought in failed -- for whatever reasons -- to do what they should have done.
Some people put that blame of failure directly on Mo or Carver, for their choice of players, rather than on the players for failing to perform. I tend to side with the failing to perform argument, given that Cunningham and others had lots of opportunities to score easy (!) goals but didn't.

Good post rocker.

I also believe we've benefitted from having a healthy Greg Sutton in goal, who has helped out the defence (sometimes) when they've gone awry.

invictusTFC
09-24-2008, 03:05 PM
So basically what you're saying is Mo did a bad job. Right?
Not really. I think he tried to make some positive moves, but the players failed to live up to expectations.

Beach_Red
09-24-2008, 03:06 PM
So basically what you're saying is Mo did a bad job. Right?

In each one of the cases he mentions, we don't know what other choices were available, what other players would have agreed to come here for the same money at the same time.

We know about a bunch of guys who chose not to play here.

giambac
09-24-2008, 03:06 PM
I think every move the team made this season was in an attempt to improve the team. The problem was that the players they brought in failed largely to live up to expectations.
We needed a play maker. Mo got Guevara,a former MVP in this league. However, although he's been arguably our best player, his form has been inconsistent. We only saw glimpses of what he can really bring to this team.
We needed a stud CB, and Mo got Tebily. Unfortunately he got hurt and homesick
We needed some wingers, and Mo brought in Robert and Ricketts. While Ricketts was inconsistent, Robert was an absolute disaster.
We needed some scoring and Mo brought in Ibby, Ruiz and Barrett. Ibby has a promising future. Barrett has been our best forward in the short time that he's been here, but he struggles with consistency too. Ruiz on the other hand, has shown very little for a player with his reputation and paycheck.

In the end, management tried their best to plug the holes on this team with some quality. Maybe they just got the wrong players especially when it comes to character.


Okay so management brought in players to try and fill the holes.

End of the day it didn't work
End of the day we are dead last
End of the day we still need a leader as you have stated.
End of the day we are still shit
end of the day there is no progress. Managemnt tried but failed. That is not progress in my eyes.

Beach_Red
09-24-2008, 03:08 PM
Managemnt tried but failed. That is not progress in my eyes.

Just curious, are there any guys on the team you would keep?

Blazer
09-24-2008, 03:09 PM
Because it's not true?

Carver made a mistake taking an English tactic to MLS. It didn't work because the depth isn't there in MLS. It would work on an English team with a deep bench.

You decided based on this ONE error that he's a bum, and have called for his head ever since.

Other people have decided that one mistake doesn't make a bad coach. He just needs to learn how things work in MLS.

You can see he learned from his mistake (and it WAS a mistake, I'll grant you that), and now keeps his first squad. WHAT MORE DO YOU WANT?

I applaud and echo your sentiments – I think for the second time now today?! Shit, am I getting old? ~nudge~

olegunnar
09-24-2008, 03:09 PM
Not really. I think he tried to make some positive moves, but the players failed to live up to expectations.

That's the thing.
His job is to put together a winning roster...not just a full roster.
I get the sense people are saying...well Mo signed people so he did his job.
That's not his job...his job is to create a roster that will win.

olegunnar
09-24-2008, 03:11 PM
I think Mo has to go.

I don't necessarily think that Carver has to go, but I think that the new manager should have the flexibility to bring in "his" guy as a coach.

There's something wrong and disfunctional about this team. A team with 9 internationals, that couldn't beat a CSL team right now. The guy that put this team together has to be accountable.

Maple Leaf Red
09-24-2008, 03:12 PM
I think what really "fuels the fire" is that San Jose is looking decent in it's first season, and we're still crap in our 2nd season.

Yes San Jose is looking decent and why is that? Because they have what would be our two best players because of the turf. Mo got O'Brien here and had Huckerby ready to go but couldn't keep either here because of the turf.

How can the people wanting to clean house ignore that fact while holding up San Jose as proof that Mo is doing such a shit job? They are doing well with Mo's two best players! I feel like I am taking crazy pills! Am I the only one seeing this?!?!

giambac
09-24-2008, 03:13 PM
Just curious, are there any guys on the team you would keep?
these are my keepers

Sutton
Wynn
Brennan
Ricketts
J Smith

maybe Robson and Barrett.

the rest can go. I like Dichio, the dude has heart but the age and injuries have caught up to him. Time for him to retire and become assistant coach.

Beach_Red
09-24-2008, 03:21 PM
these are my keepers

Sutton
Wynn
Brennan
Ricketts
J Smith

maybe Robson and Barrett.

the rest can go. I like Dichio, the dude has heart but the age and injuries have caught up to him. Time for him to retire and become assistant coach.

Anybody to come on from the bench?

And, how many new starters a year do most MLS teams pick up? (I actually don't know, I'm just asking for comparison, I wonder if many teams were able to assemble a whole starting line-up in two years. Someone said Columbus is pretty close to that, but how common is it?)

Maple Leaf Red
09-24-2008, 03:28 PM
I want to take a long-term outlook on things, my issue is that we need to be sure that we are heading in the right direction. I do not mean just are we getting more points, but are there signs that suggest that if we continue of the road we are one we should be better one day. I respect your opinion, other then on issues of which team from a certain city is better, what do you think are there real signs of us going in the right direction? I just do not want to be in year 4 and 5 and then realize that the direction was all wrong from the outset.
See you're already wrong on the one issue ;)

But if you look at the play of the team on the field and think that the team is not vastly improved then I have to question what team you are watching. Yes, they have bad patches but maybe you guys forget how shit the team was. This is still a club in progress and while they have made big strides they still have to make more.

I understand the feeling that the improvement this year has not been enough but again the team has been derailed by injuries and lots of movement however a lot in still in place for next season which could give the club it's first settled season. Next season will be a much better measure of Mo's success. Of course, if he's chopping and changing a tonne again then it'll make it almost impossible to properly judge how he is doing and will be a sign that maybe his plan isn't what it's cracked up to be.

giambac
09-24-2008, 03:29 PM
Anybody to come on from the bench?

And, how many new starters a year do most MLS teams pick up? (I actually don't know, I'm just asking for comparison, I wonder if many teams were able to assemble a whole starting line-up in two years. Someone said Columbus is pretty close to that, but how common is it?)

For me the rest can go. I know you need some players to come of the bench. So you kep a few, who I don't care because none of them are going to make an impact.

End of the day we need 2 starting CB, 2 staring midfiielders and a true striker.

you can talk all you want about depth and the bench but it ain't going to help any if you don't have 11 true starters who will give 100% game in and game out and will be proud to put on the Red Jersey. The majority of players we have now don't have that pride.

giambac
09-24-2008, 03:31 PM
See you're already wrong on the one issue ;)

But if you look at the play of the team on the field and think that the team is not vastly improved then I have to question what team you are watching. Yes, they have bad patches but maybe you guys forget how shit the team was. This is still a club in progress and while they have made big strides they still have to make more.

I understand the feeling that the improvement this year has not been enough but again the team has been derailed by injuries and lots of movement however a lot in still in place for next season which could give the club it's first settled season. Next season will be a much better measure of Mo's success. Of course, if he's chopping and changing a tonne again then it'll make it almost impossible to properly judge how he is doing and will be a sign that maybe his plan isn't what it's cracked up to be.

That's waht everyone was saying last season...wait until next season....now it's the same story, wait until next season...........

Beach_Red
09-24-2008, 03:35 PM
you can talk all you want about depth and the bench but it ain't going to help any if you don't have 11 true starters who will give 100% game in and game out and will be proud to put on the Red Jersey. The majority of players we have now don't have that pride.

Okay, that's right. And it will come, but given that none of the current players had ever even HEARD of TFC when they got approached to play here, maybe expecting that kind of passion is a but much right now.

I just think it takes longer than two years for most teams to get 11 "true starters," as you say. Not very many "true starters" are sitting around out of work at the moment, are they?

If this league wold pay transfer fees and increase the salary cap it would be great for us. Till then, it's going to take some time.

Maple Leaf Red
09-24-2008, 03:40 PM
Okay, that's right. And it will come, but given that none of the current players had ever even HEARD of TFC when they got approached to play here, maybe expecting that kind of passion is a but much right now.

I just think it takes longer than two years for most teams to get 11 "true starters," as you say. Not very many "true starters" are sitting around out of work at the moment, are they?

If this league wold pay transfer fees and increase the salary cap it would be great for us. Till then, it's going to take some time.
Thank you. As much as we might love the city it's not THAT well known internationally, it's effing cold in the winter, we can't pay more than most other international second tier leagues, and we play on turf. Might those be impediments? Just a thought...

Broadview
09-24-2008, 03:43 PM
Last year we had many, many games with no goals.

This year we have many, many games with one goal.

Next year, the sky's the limit. Two! We're heading in the right direction. Everyone keeps their jobs.

Go team!

druid
09-24-2008, 03:57 PM
but how many scoring chances did the team blow as well? Cunny had enough of em too.
Maybe if we had finished at least some (5???) of those easy chances, the problems of the defense wouldn't have been so great.
i think those defensive mistakes are magnified because of the lack of scoring. Games were always so close because forwards sucked, meaning that when the defense inevitably gave up a goal, it was a tough blow.

if i look down the table of GA, I see that TFC has only let in 2 more goals than NY, KC, FCD, Colorado, 1 more goal than NE. Basically the difference between NE and TFC in statistical terms is NE can finish. They have almost the same defensive record.

DC United has let in 8 more goals than TFC, Chivas has let in 2 more, LA has let in 16 more....

But TFC's problem still remains scoring (as it was last year). If the players that had scored before hadn't forgot how to score, or hadn't got injured, or hadn't disappeared for international duty, TFC may have had the 6 more goals that NY has on them. Cunningham alone could have done that for us if he cared.

In short, I explain this season like this: the defense improved enough to be competitive (maybe near average compared to being total shit last year), but the offensive players Mo brought in failed -- for whatever reasons -- to do what they should have done.
Some people put that blame of failure directly on Mo or Carver, for their choice of players, rather than on the players for failing to perform. I tend to side with the failing to perform argument, given that Cunningham and others had lots of opportunities to score easy (!) goals but didn't.

Part of this is also coaching. Cunningham was a one trick pony. If you don't play to that strength the well is going to be dry. Who's fault is it that Cunningham didn't score goals? I think its both Cunningham's and Carver's. Carver is working in the MLS with a limited pallet. If you put in a guy like Cunningham and don't play to his strengths your in trouble and Carver's man management skills often appear stuck in the 50s.

Barrett wasn't a scorer when we picked him up and we obviously needed a goal scorer. So why was he bought? Don't get me wrong, I like him, but he wasn't what we needed. That has to fall on Carver and Mo's shoulders.

I think there's enough of the blame to go round, but the buck has to stop with Carver and Mo.

And if you're still doubting here's the proof:

http://maas.ca/images/tfc08.jpg

That clearly shows you that the team is actually getting worse as the season progresses. The more players these guys buy, the worse things get.

Maple Leaf Red
09-24-2008, 04:01 PM
^^^ plot that graph against how often Carver was able to field the same XI and show me what it says. Dollars to doughnuts the decline coincides with injuries, international absences, and player movement. Hard to fault Carver when, at one point, he had used 33 different players at one point this year.

As for the point about Cunny, if he used to score and he doesn't score anymore despite getting tonnes of chances then who's fault is that?

Beach_Red
09-24-2008, 04:10 PM
Barrett wasn't a scorer when we picked him up and we obviously needed a goal scorer. So why was he bought? Don't get me wrong, I like him, but he wasn't what we needed. That has to fall on Carver and Mo's shoulders.


Well, it wasn't like TFC went after Barrett. McBride wanted to come home and play in the MLS but there was no way he was going to play in Toronto.

Like most players here, Barrett was the best that could be had from a situation. Expansion teams are made of leftovers and deals that negotiated from a position of weakness.

But it won't always be like that.

BuSaPuNk
09-24-2008, 04:37 PM
The turnstyle has to stop. Less player movement better results. Also getting just anyone to come here and play doesn't help matter either. As of now here is who should stay: Dichio (depending on health), Ricketts, Guevarra, Wynne, Sutton, James, Ibby, Brennan, Barrett. That is about it. We need 2 soild defenders, 1 soild playmaking midfielder, and one true striker. And when I mean true striker I mean avg. 1.2-1.5 goals a game.

jloome
09-24-2008, 06:46 PM
Well, it wasn't like TFC went after Barrett. McBride wanted to come home and play in the MLS but there was no way he was going to play in Toronto.

Like most players here, Barrett was the best that could be had from a situation. Expansion teams are made of leftovers and deals that negotiated from a position of weakness.

But it won't always be like that.


Barrett was Chicago's leading goalscorer when we picked him up, with five goals. He only has two since, but was on pace for 10 goals this year.

Put me on the record as someone who thinks Guevara has all the technique in the world but hasn't served up a decent throughball since Christ was a carpenter. Maybe the strikers aren't clicking and making the right runs into the box, I dunno. But it's not just an issue of scoring. Even in the games where we've had lots of shots, half of them have come from the wingers.

James Oliphant
09-24-2008, 06:48 PM
As for the point about Cunny, if he used to score and he doesn't score anymore despite getting tonnes of chances then who's fault is that?

Cunningham has 4 goals and 2 assists in 6 games for Dallas.

http://fc.dallas.mlsnet.com/players/bio.jsp?team=t104&player=cunningham_j&playerId=cun444955&statType=current

RPB_Brantford_08
09-24-2008, 09:25 PM
I think Mo has to go.

I don't necessarily think that Carver has to go, but I think that the new manager should have the flexibility to bring in "his" guy as a coach.

There's something wrong and disfunctional about this team. A team with 9 internationals, that couldn't beat a CSL team right now. The guy that put this team together has to be accountable.


But those international hardly play for top countries...Wyne..USA, and Guevara ..Honduras excepted....the rest are made up of backward football nations internationals..

RPB_Brantford_08
09-24-2008, 09:26 PM
Last year we had many, many games with no goals.

This year we have many, many games with one goal.

Next year, the sky's the limit. Two! We're heading in the right direction. Everyone keeps their jobs.

Go team!


exactly>>onewards..TFC

Tyler Durden
09-24-2008, 10:49 PM
these are my keepers

Sutton
Wynn
Brennan
Ricketts
J Smith

maybe Robson and Barrett.

the rest can go. I like Dichio, the dude has heart but the age and injuries have caught up to him. Time for him to retire and become assistant coach.

That is exactly what I'm thinking....I would still keep JuJames and Ibby as a sub....on a side note though, I think we will get DeRo sometime next year.

Oldtimer
09-25-2008, 07:38 AM
My last visit to Chicago (on July 12) was a very low point for me with my former club," Cunningham said. "Some things took place there that were not so memorable. So, to go back with this team, having my daughter and having a good result was a great moment in my life. I can't go into too much detail about what took place in my last visit but it meant a lot to me, more than you guys even know. I was very pleased

http://toronto.fc.mlsnet.com/news/mls_news.jsp?ymd=20080924&content_id=190553&vkey=news_mls&fext=.jsp

I wonder what happened? Does this reflect on Carver/some of the other players?
Is something going on that might explain our poor form that we don't know about?

Beach_Red
09-25-2008, 08:22 AM
^ Wasn't this around the time he was sent to the reserves dressing room? That always sounded a little weird to me.

giambac
09-25-2008, 08:39 AM
^^^ plot that graph against how often Carver was able to field the same XI and show me what it says. Dollars to doughnuts the decline coincides with injuries, international absences, and player movement. Hard to fault Carver when, at one point, he had used 33 different players at one point this year.

As for the point about Cunny, if he used to score and he doesn't score anymore despite getting tonnes of chances then who's fault is that?

Listen, I'm not hear to bash Carver.

However for all you guys defending him and making excuses for him- here is something to consider.

I was watching the soccer report on Fox Sports last night. Carver himself was quoted as saying that if his team doesn't improve in the next 5 games then he doesn't deserve to be back as coach next year. This Carver saying this himself, so don't be pissed at me. . I guess he finally has looked in the mirror and has been honest.

Maple Leaf Red
09-25-2008, 08:54 AM
Cunningham has 4 goals and 2 assists in 6 games for Dallas.

http://fc.dallas.mlsnet.com/players/bio.jsp?team=t104&player=cunningham_j&playerId=cun444955&statType=current
I meant with Toronto but it's nice to see that that piece of shit is scoring now that he's gone. Or did you prefer seeing him standing there with his hands on hips doing nothing?

invictusTFC
09-25-2008, 09:08 AM
My biggest problem with the "wait till next year" and "you can't expect a competitive team in year two" arguments, is the fact that San Jose has more points than us in year #1. SJ have post-season aspirations, and we are once again basement dwellers with arguably a better and more talented roster on paper.
There are so many questions surrounding our club.
Did we bring in the wrong players?
Have they refused to buy into Carver's philosophy?
Is the constant roster shuffling hurting this team?
International duty... field turf... etc...

The only concrete thing that I can conclude from all of this, is that Frank Yallop is buy far a better manager and coach than both Mo and Carver at this point.
I have no doubt that Carver is a capable coach. I believe that this season was both a learning and humbling experience for him. I think he will be better prepared to coach this club next season now that he is more familiar with the quirks, nuances and challenges of coaching in this league.
Mo on the other hand is quickly running out of time and the fans are running out of patience. Although Mo has made some interesting acquisitions and has secured a promising future for this club in terms of prospects and draft picks, his moves have failed to materialize in any real measurable success for this team. In fact, the argument can be made that his constant shuffling of the roster over the past 2 seasons has hurt this club more than its helped it.
At this point I'm not prepared to advocate his firing. however, I am only willing to give him this upcoming off-season and the start of next season to prove himself. Promises have been made about DP signings and significant improvements. Its time that he follows through on those promises. I for one, am not going to tolerate an off-season of little or no movement and a team that is still being put together 4 or 5 weeks into a season. I'm not against adding depth as the season goes on, but TFC didn't have a true starting 11 until 4 or 5 games into the season and it kept changing as the season progressed.

Beach_Red
09-25-2008, 09:19 AM
The only concrete thing that I can conclude from all of this, is that Frank Yallop is buy far a better manager and coach than both Mo and Carver at this point.

Isn't the heart of the San Jose team a couple of guys who refused to play for TFC? They said it was the turf, maybe it was the coach or the manager, maybe they didn't like the city. Is there somewhere else you'd like to live if you could get the same job at the same salary you're getting here?

I just don't think your conclusion can really be that concrete, based on what little real info we actually have. Certainly TFC need to make some corrections so that the O'Brians and Huckerbys (and many others who were offered contracts here and didn't take them) will agree to play here, but they better be the right corrections and not just the easiest ones - you can get a new manager and coach tomorrow, but will it really change anything?

Tyler Durden
09-25-2008, 09:36 AM
Mo sat on his ass last year and enjoyed the off-field success too much, MLSE didnt light any fire under his ass to improve (perhaps this year aswell)....this past year he's tried to form a core group of players with some good additions (JoSmith,Ibby,Guevara,Ricketts)....and right before season ticket renewal he says a DP for sure next year.....I hold him to the 5 year plan

I'd give Carver another year...not fair to judge him on one year in a new league with a team that has no depth..international call ups...plastic field

druid
09-25-2008, 10:21 AM
I meant with Toronto but it's nice to see that that piece of shit is scoring now that he's gone. Or did you prefer seeing him standing there with his hands on hips doing nothing?

Cunningham is a popular whipping boy for his lack of motivation (Robert was my personal favorite!) but they are not alone. A lot of our players have been loosing heart this season and I put our troubles down more to that than injuries and FIFA dates. Particularly in away games.

When multiple players on the pitch regularly turn in half hearted performances this is a coaching issue. It's the coaches job to get those players fired up and giving their all. Either Carver needs to: improve his man management skills, get someone on his staff (assistant coach) who's capable of firing up the team, or go.

The buck stops with Carver for the on field performances. End of.

But the guy seems to have his own sense of honor, so if our last results are poor I wouldn't be surprised if he resigns.

invictusTFC
09-25-2008, 10:21 AM
Isn't the heart of the San Jose team a couple of guys who refused to play for TFC? They said it was the turf, maybe it was the coach or the manager, maybe they didn't like the city. Is there somewhere else you'd like to live if you could get the same job at the same salary you're getting here?

I just don't think your conclusion can really be that concrete, based on what little real info we actually have. Certainly TFC need to make some corrections so that the O'Brians and Huckerbys (and many others who were offered contracts here and didn't take them) will agree to play here, but they better be the right corrections and not just the easiest ones - you can get a new manager and coach tomorrow, but will it really change anything?



Yallop has a lot more experience in this league than Carver and Mo combined. He has won the MLS Cup on a few occasions. He has been able to get more out of a first year expansion club than Mo and Carver have been able to get out of a more talented second year club.
I'll concede that Huckerby has helped kick start SJ's offence, but they were more competitive in the first half of the season than TFC was all last season in their first year. Yallop has to take credit for that.
Furthermore, there is no evidence that Huckerby or O'Brian would significantly have improved this team. We can only assume, but it would all come down to how well they could've adapted to Carver's system.

Sure, the field turf hasn't helped our acquisition of players, but you cannot blame that for our dreadful performance this season. Despite the field turf we were still able to attract quality players like Ricketts and Guevara. They simply underperformed and underwhelmed.

Lastly, I just want to reiterate what I said. I'm not advocating the firing of anybody. I believe Carver will be a better manger next season due to his familiarity with the league. As far as Mo is concerned, he really needs to prove his worth this off-season and follow up on his promises. If he cannot, he needs to go.

Oldtimer
09-25-2008, 10:27 AM
Listen, I'm not hear to bash Carver.



:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

giambac
09-25-2008, 12:47 PM
Mo sat on his ass last year and enjoyed the off-field success too much, MLSE didnt light any fire under his ass to improve (perhaps this year aswell)....this past year he's tried to form a core group of players with some good additions (JoSmith,Ibby,Guevara,Ricketts)....and right before season ticket renewal he says a DP for sure next year.....I hold him to the 5 year plan

I'd give Carver another year...not fair to judge him on one year in a new league with a team that has no depth..international call ups...plastic field

Your absolutley right. With all the success off the field MLSE and managemnt felt no pressure to improve the club. That's why supporters have to be vocal about their displeasure with the soccer team. Otherwise next year will be more of the same. But it seems people are content with a 1 point progress from last year:rolleyes:

REDPATCHGRL74
09-26-2008, 04:25 PM
Yes San Jose is looking decent and why is that? Because they have what would be our two best players because of the turf. Mo got O'Brien here and had Huckerby ready to go but couldn't keep either here because of the turf.

How can the people wanting to clean house ignore that fact while holding up San Jose as proof that Mo is doing such a shit job? They are doing well with Mo's two best players! I feel like I am taking crazy pills! Am I the only one seeing this?!?!

So what you are saying is, as long as we have turf we will always be basement dwellars, and management will always have that excuse.