Match Day 26 - TFC @ Columbus Saturday August 17 7:30pm - Fight with the Bumble Bees

[MightyDM]

ANY team? I'd challenge that. There were players equally dominant whose teams didn't win the treble. Giovinco didn't win best player in 2017, and he wasn't the best player.

As much as Vanney hasn't seemed to be able to handle a less than optimum side for much of this year and last, he most certainly made some excellent tactical decisions with a top squad. Best example was in MLS Cup 2017 suddenly surprising Seattle with a different formation than Seattle had trained to play against, they weren't prepared and their 10-men-behind-the-ball strategy was defeated. That wasn't just Giovinco, because Giovinco had been there in 2016 too, that was Vanney thinking through how to do things differently in 2017. The difference between 2016 and 2017 was pure tactics, 100% the coach.

My issue with Vanney isn't with how he manages top players, it's that he often can't be pragmatic when he has a not so great squad due to absences, etc. Sometimes you want to just grind out a win in a less than beautiful way. He sometimes seems incapable of that. He expects secondary players to be Man City, which they are not capable of.

I wonder if it is simply that he doesn’t know how to have his team play that way.

[JuliquE]

ANY team? I'd challenge that. There were players equally dominant whose teams didn't win the treble. Giovinco didn't win best player in 2017, and he wasn't the best player.

As much as Vanney hasn't seemed to be able to handle a less than optimum side for much of this year and last, he most certainly made some excellent tactical decisions with a top squad. Best example was in MLS Cup 2017 suddenly surprising Seattle with a different formation than Seattle had trained to play against, they weren't prepared and their 10-men-behind-the-ball strategy was defeated. That wasn't just Giovinco, because Giovinco had been there in 2016 too, that was Vanney thinking through how to do things differently in 2017. The difference between 2016 and 2017 was pure tactics, 100% the coach.

My issue with Vanney isn't with how he manages top players, it's that he often can't be pragmatic when he has a not so great squad due to absences, etc. Sometimes you want to just grind out a win in a less than beautiful way. He sometimes seems incapable of that. He expects secondary players to be Man City, which they are not capable of.
Tactics and VV were the difference in 2017, as to '16.

But, I agree with the general sentiment, here: I think it's like taking the best managers around the world and giving them Derby County's squad to work with; just because they don't fare well with that lot, doesn't make them bad managers… rather that they are suited to a certain build of a team.

We definitely need another Giovinco-type, impact player, else we're likely a mid-table or so team.

[stevep]

Tactics and VV were the difference in 2017, as to '16.

But, I agree with the general sentiment, here: I think it's like taking the best managers around the world and giving them Derby County's squad to work with; just because they don't fare well with that lot, doesn't make them bad managers… rather that they are suited to a certain build of a team.

We definitely need another Giovinco-type, impact player, else we're likely a mid-table or so team.

Yes we need a giovinco type.
Question is how does Bradley fit into a 4-3-3?
Is a defensive midfielder wanted/ needed in q 4-3-3.
LAFC are they're midfielders all attacking?

[Ossington Mental Youth]

I beg to differ. An impact player makes a difference but not the difference. I truly believe we have the talent, although some of them aging out of their positions and need replacing. Our tactics are all wrong and we are not playing to our strengths. We are currently playing to whatever logic Vanney has going on at the moment. Bad coach? Nah, past his best by with this squad? Absolutely

[Oldtimer]

Yes we need a giovinco type.
Question is how does Bradley fit into a 4-3-3?
Is a defensive midfielder wanted/ needed in q 4-3-3.
LAFC are they're midfielders all attacking?

Atuesta is an attacking midfielder, Kaye is more a box-to-box midfielder. They don't typically play with a DM, although Alejandro Guido is one he hasn't played so far this year.

[stevep]

Atuesta is an attacking midfielder, Kaye is more a box-to-box midfielder. They don't typically play with a DM, although Alejandro Guido is one he hasn't played so far this year.

so would you say
atuesta is pozo
kaye is bradley or is kaye oso? box to box, i consider oso box to box
who would the third guy would be oso?

they are the model i believe vanney should or is trying to emulate

[stevep]

I beg to differ. An impact player makes a difference but not the difference. I truly believe we have the talent, although some of them aging out of their positions and need replacing. Our tactics are all wrong and we are not playing to our strengths. We are currently playing to whatever logic Vanney has going on at the moment. Bad coach? Nah, past his best by with this squad? Absolutely

i would love to see how we are with the two new wingers to see if you are right but they never play!!

[Oldtimer]

so would you say
atuesta is pozo
kaye is bradley or is kaye oso? box to box, i consider oso box to box
who would the third guy would be oso?

they are the model i believe vanney should or is trying to emulate

That's the problem. I think we have issues in transition both offensive and defensive because we don't really have clear roles like LAFC does. Bradley tends to play close to our defenders because our defense is so scary, although he does get forward sometimes. Oso could be box to box but he tends to pass off the ball instead of moving it forward. So our attackers (Pozo, Altidore) don't get enough of the ball. Meanwhile there is too much pressure on the shaky defense. Problems both ways. We really need a Beitashour type player on defense, that would allow Bradley to get forward and Vanney to play our TAM wingers (who don't have defensive strengths according to him).

[stevep]

That's the problem. I think we have issues in transition both offensive and defensive because we don't really have clear roles like LAFC does. Bradley tends to play close to our defenders because our defense is so scary, although he does get forward sometimes. Oso could be box to box but he tends to pass off the ball instead of moving it forward. So our attackers (Pozo, Altidore) don't get enough of the ball. Meanwhile there is too much pressure on the shaky defense. Problems both ways. We really need a Beitashour type player on defense, that would allow Bradley to get forward and Vanney to play our TAM wingers (who don't have defensive strengths according to him).

boy do we miss beitashour

[Bobo]

San Jose is 6th place in their division. TFC is 9th. You fire your coach to move up 3 spots? Is the ex-Chivas coach really that amazingly better?

If Vanney gets us to 6th, then it follows from this reasoning that we should support him.

I'd give a testicle to swap Vanney with Almeyda. He has his team playing freely and with confidence. The Earthquakes are quite entertaining to watch; basically, they're the opposite of TFC.



And have a crap team. Ask any supporters from Liga Mx, Chivas was middling to trash and he made them amazing. Doing the same with San Jose. I only dream of what he would do with our players

To be fair, San Jose has at least four players who would walk onto this TFC team.

[Ossington Mental Youth]

I'd give a testicle to swap Vanney with Almeyda. He has his team playing freely and with confidence. The Earthquakes are quite entertaining to watch; basically, they're the opposite of TFC.




To be fair, San Jose has at least four players who would walk onto this TFC team.

With you on Almeyda. They did make some recent signings who I'm sure im neglecting. Four tho? I'll give em a look rn

[Bobo]

With you on Almeyda. They did make some recent signings who I'm sure im neglecting. Four tho? I'll give em a look rn

Off the top of my head: Vako, Espinoza, Ericksson, Thompson.


Clearly, I'm buying stock in that team, LOL. But it's almost sad how under-the-radar they're going.

[69Chevy396]

ANY team? I'd challenge that. There were players equally dominant whose teams didn't win the treble. Giovinco didn't win best player in 2017, and he wasn't the best player.

As much as Vanney hasn't seemed to be able to handle a less than optimum side for much of this year and last, he most certainly made some excellent tactical decisions with a top squad. Best example was in MLS Cup 2017 suddenly surprising Seattle with a different formation than Seattle had trained to play against, they weren't prepared and their 10-men-behind-the-ball strategy was defeated. That wasn't just Giovinco, because Giovinco had been there in 2016 too, that was Vanney thinking through how to do things differently in 2017. The difference between 2016 and 2017 was pure tactics, 100% the coach.

My issue with Vanney isn't with how he manages top players, it's that he often can't be pragmatic when he has a not so great squad due to absences, etc. Sometimes you want to just grind out a win in a less than beautiful way. He sometimes seems incapable of that. He expects secondary players to be Man City, which they are not capable of.

Giovinco wasn’t the best player? You forget that when he was on the field, he had 3 defenders surrounding him, kicking his shins, grabbing his shirt....his presence altered the game in ways that nobody else on the team could match....he still scored 20 goals in all competitions....he provided the room for Altidore, the first touch that nobody else in MLS could match....My dog could have coached that 2017 team.....this is what Altidore misses....what I miss

[jabbronies]

ANY team? I'd challenge that. There were players equally dominant whose teams didn't win the treble. Giovinco didn't win best player in 2017, and he wasn't the best player.

As much as Vanney hasn't seemed to be able to handle a less than optimum side for much of this year and last, he most certainly made some excellent tactical decisions with a top squad. Best example was in MLS Cup 2017 suddenly surprising Seattle with a different formation than Seattle had trained to play against, they weren't prepared and their 10-men-behind-the-ball strategy was defeated. That wasn't just Giovinco, because Giovinco had been there in 2016 too, that was Vanney thinking through how to do things differently in 2017. The difference between 2016 and 2017 was pure tactics, 100% the coach.

My issue with Vanney isn't with how he manages top players, it's that he often can't be pragmatic when he has a not so great squad due to absences, etc. Sometimes you want to just grind out a win in a less than beautiful way. He sometimes seems incapable of that. He expects secondary players to be Man City, which they are not capable of.

C'mon man.. I don't get you people. How quickly people forget the impact this guy had.

Giovinco single handily won us games we had no business winning. On more than 1 occasion.
Put Gio on any team and they are winning an additional 5-6 game minimum - that's a big deal

even if he isn't scoring - As mentioned earlier - he has 2-3 guys on him - leaving the rest of the team open to play much more freely. That's a factor you are not considering in your two examples.

Gio made a difference and would do so on any contending team he's put on.

[Oldtimer]

Giovinco wasn’t the best player? You forget that when he was on the field, he had 3 defenders surrounding him, kicking his shins, grabbing his shirt....his presence altered the game in ways that nobody else on the team could match....he still scored 20 goals in all competitions....he provided the room for Altidore, the first touch that nobody else in MLS could match....My dog could have coached that 2017 team.....this is what Altidore misses....what I miss

You shouldn't be such a homer, it's widely recognized that David Villa was a better impact player than Giovinco in 2017, and Martinez was also ahead of him. That's not to discount that Giovinco was huge for us, but our team was not unique.

It's not automatic that TFC would have won. Giovinco didn't guarantee it, neither did the complete squad. There were several strong contenders with equally good squads, especially Seattle which was peaking at the right time.

Vanney's brilliantly executed surprise strategy (which they prepared for weeks in secret) switching to a 4-4-2 diamond for the final shocked Seattle and left them unable to use the bunker strategy that they successfully used in 2016. The 4-4-2 diamond is familiar to us now, but he'd only used it a couple of times early in the season, giving the misleading impression to Seattle that it wasn't on the table. We probably don't have that cup without Vanney.

That's not to say that Vanney is the only coach that could have won the cup or that he necessarily is the right coach for a very different squad today, but to say that your "dog could have won" shows a lack of appreciation for the role of strategy in coaching. There were a lot of games in that run where Vanney did adjustments in strategy that unbalanced our opponents. I think people are forgetting that today as he struggles to get working a lower quality (despite having a few very highly paid players) and unbalanced squad without a clear identity.

[noimpactinmtl]

You shouldn't be such a homer, it's widely recognized that David Villa was a better impact player than Giovinco in 2017, and Martinez was also ahead of him. That's not to discount that Giovinco was huge for us, but our team was not unique.

It's not automatic that TFC would have won. Giovinco didn't guarantee it, neither did the complete squad. There were several strong contenders with equally good squads, especially Seattle which was peaking at the right time.

Vanney's brilliantly executed surprise strategy (which they prepared for weeks in secret) switching to a 4-4-2 diamond for the final shocked Seattle and left them unable to use the bunker strategy that they successfully used in 2016. The 4-4-2 diamond is familiar to us now, but he'd only used it a couple of times early in the season, giving the misleading impression to Seattle that it wasn't on the table. We probably don't have that cup without Vanney.

That's not to say that Vanney is the only coach that could have won the cup or that he necessarily is the right coach for a very different squad today, but to say that your "dog could have won" shows a lack of appreciation for the role of strategy in coaching. There were a lot of games in that run where Vanney did adjustments in strategy that unbalanced our opponents. I think people are forgetting that today as he struggles to get working a lower quality (despite having a few very highly paid players) and unbalanced squad without a clear identity.

Michael Bradley was the best player in both MLS Cup Finals. Know yourself and your enemies and you will be safe for a hundred battles ring true. Seattle lacked width in 2017, which allows us to use a diamond mid to clog the midfield. Of course, it all goes awry if Bradley drops a stinker and allows Seattle’s attack to run wild.

Like any well laid plan, no tactics survive first contact with the enemy. Execution is key as well. You can practice it, but all it takes is one lapse for everything to go awry.

[69Chevy396]

You shouldn't be such a homer, it's widely recognized that David Villa was a better impact player than Giovinco in 2017, and Martinez was also ahead of him. That's not to discount that Giovinco was huge for us, but our team was not unique.

It's not automatic that TFC would have won. Giovinco didn't guarantee it, neither did the complete squad. There were several strong contenders with equally good squads, especially Seattle which was peaking at the right time.

Vanney's brilliantly executed surprise strategy (which they prepared for weeks in secret) switching to a 4-4-2 diamond for the final shocked Seattle and left them unable to use the bunker strategy that they successfully used in 2016. The 4-4-2 diamond is familiar to us now, but he'd only used it a couple of times early in the season, giving the misleading impression to Seattle that it wasn't on the table. We probably don't have that cup without Vanney.

That's not to say that Vanney is the only coach that could have won the cup or that he necessarily is the right coach for a very different squad today, but to say that your "dog could have won" shows a lack of appreciation for the role of strategy in coaching. There were a lot of games in that run where Vanney did adjustments in strategy that unbalanced our opponents. I think people are forgetting that today as he struggles to get working a lower quality (despite having a few very highly paid players) and unbalanced squad without a clear identity.
Funny you calling me a homer considering how I regularly criticize this team. Oh well. You have routinely underestimated Seba’s brilliance, even when he was setting league records, amazing free kicks, tough as nails, Oct 2015 Rome then Toronto then playoffs, he was the only player the Mexicans feared, and he showed them they had good reason for it, playing in a foreign land, learning English, playing in stupid sub zero temperatures on a field of painted sand, teaching Morrow, Osorio etc how to play the game, bringing creative one touch football to a team that embraced boring long ball for a decade.....I cherish those memories even if you do not

[stevep]

Funny you calling me a homer considering how I regularly criticize this team. Oh well. You have routinely underestimated Seba’s brilliance, even when he was setting league records, amazing free kicks, tough as nails, Oct 2015 Rome then Toronto then playoffs, he was the only player the Mexicans feared, and he showed them they had good reason for it, playing in a foreign land, learning English, playing in stupid sub zero temperatures on a field of painted sand, teaching Morrow, Osorio etc how to play the game, bringing creative one touch football to a team that embraced boring long ball for a decade.....I cherish those memories even if you do not

The one word I can use to describe the games at BMO now is boring. The magic is gone
The saddest thing is to be boring.

[Ossington Mental Youth]

Off the top of my head: Vako, Espinoza, Ericksson, Thompson.


Clearly, I'm buying stock in that team, LOL. But it's almost sad how under-the-radar they're going.

Hahahaha here I was thinking about the Mexican winger and the Argie striker.

[69Chevy396]

The one word I can use to describe the games at BMO now is boring. The magic is gone
The saddest thing is to be boring.
You got it. I am convinced MLSE brass looks at 10,000 empty BMO seats and wonder if not paying Seba (or another international star), was such a good idea. In order for TFC to be a cup contender again, they need to be better than they were in 2017, and they need to do it with style and exciting football. Perhaps Poz has the makings of another VV, but nobody else on the team except for Altidore, have what it takes to put bums in the seats again.

[DinamoTFC]

C'mon man.. I don't get you people. How quickly people forget the impact this guy had.

Giovinco single handily won us games we had no business winning. On more than 1 occasion.
Put Gio on any team and they are winning an additional 5-6 game minimum - that's a big deal

even if he isn't scoring - As mentioned earlier - he has 2-3 guys on him - leaving the rest of the team open to play much more freely. That's a factor you are not considering in your two examples.

Gio made a difference and would do so on any contending team he's put on.

The more terrible games I watch of us this season the more I realize what a gem Seba was. He literally single handedly won us games.

[JuliquE]

Giovinco wasn’t the best player? You forget that when he was on the field, he had 3 defenders surrounding him, kicking his shins, grabbing his shirt....his presence altered the game in ways that nobody else on the team could match....he still scored 20 goals in all competitions....he provided the room for Altidore, the first touch that nobody else in MLS could match....My dog could have coached that 2017 team.....this is what Altidore misses....what I miss
I agree with you and Oldtimer: Seba absolutely was our best player—most consistent, to be sure, even if you could hand around MOTM to a few different players (i.e. Altidore was very, very clutch for us)… but, I don't think just anyone could have gotten it right, tactically; it might have been hard NOT to fare well with that squad, but I'm not sure the results/levels we reached could be achieved with just anyone.




I beg to differ. An impact player makes a difference but not the difference. I truly believe we have the talent, although some of them aging out of their positions and need replacing. Our tactics are all wrong and we are not playing to our strengths. We are currently playing to whatever logic Vanney has going on at the moment. Bad coach? Nah, past his best by with this squad? Absolutely
Not saying it would be impossible to do well or even go all the way with this squad, but I don't think, with how the league has levelled up, that we can come close to being as dominant a force as we were in 2017. If that's our aim, I feel like one of the wingers we signed recently, for example, needed to be able to, as 69Chevy69 so aptly put it, strike fear into the opposition and occupy at least a couple defenders, the way Seba used to.

Fingers crossed that one of our recent signees can surprise us, but, given their respective starts to life in a TFC shirt, I'm not exactly holding my breath, a few promising flashes notwithstanding.

[Oldtimer]

The one word I can use to describe the games at BMO now is boring. The magic is gone
The saddest thing is to be boring.

I feel that too, well expressed! We need something, maybe a new special player to kick start that magic again. I miss those days.

[stevep]

I feel that too, well expressed! We need something, maybe a new special player to kick start that magic again. I miss those days.

That's why we all need/ want those new guys to start so badly. Maybe they will give the magic.
NE and NYFC and MN were great exciting games

[Fort York Redcoat]

I'm not sure this team is playing for this years pussplops.