Match Day 22 - Houston @ TFC - Saturday July 20 7:30pm - You Know What Time it Is

[TheGoodson]

One last thing... go watch the interviews with the players. They all said they came out flat, how is that on Vanney? At the end of the day the players are the ones on the pitch, Vanney can only do so much. If those players don’t execute the game plan then they shouldn’t be on the on the pitch. Vanney made changes at half because certain players weren’t performing as expected and unfortunately there are only 3 subs and due to the first half he had to make changes offensively instead of tweaking the backend as they were down 2 at half

[stevep]

Hahahaha... Everything is a conspiracy.. Vanney must have put $100k on them to lose.

Most of you weren’t here when we were shit, I have been here since day 1 witness more disfunction then anything that’s happened in the last two years: Mo Johnston, Dero saga, Preki, Mariner etc.... those were dark days, so whatever enjoy your bitching. Sports are a distraction to real life and if you have to make shit up (I’m a corporate shill) and again maybe it’s time to find something else to watch

The smoking gun was mavinga not playing. This is how you know he threw the game in my opinion.
Of course throwing the game,not throwing the game is an unprovable thing.

The provable fact is the lineup put out on the field was not one that could have won the game.
This is not a conspiracy.

[ManUtd4ever]

For the record, I'm not calling for Vanney's head. I just think he made a major blunder that wasn't called for under the circumstances, and at home no less. Squad rotation is a must at this time of year, but he clearly went overboard and didn't give us much of a chance last night. Hopefully, it was a lesson learned.

I still believe he is more than capable of leading a healthy TFC squad moving forward.

[TheGoodson]

Respectfully, what a stupid comment. You don't know when people started following TFC, you just know when they joined the board.

Although, not all us joined the forum day 1, we have been going to Shoeless since very early days, been suffering throughout and can relate. What the major beef is that, TFC is a pimple on the MLSE revenue and expense lines. We saw what a winner could do for a city and a fan base. To be competitive now is the mandate and why not be a bigger spending team (they can afford it). It generates great content for the media outlets and TFC has one of the most vocal and loyal fan bases. You go to the game and you don't sit on your ass and have fun. The fans deserve more than what we got yesterday.

To put a competitive team on the field is challenging but not impossible.... from a coaching perspective, we put our two weakest defenders on with an inexperienced but getting better holding midfielder in Fraser. All three goals were shit, it looked like 2017. We dominate the play and then let a counter attack destroy us. He should have then let Bono play to be consistent and hang out to dry as well.

We had momentum ... Vanney needs to stand up and say, I tried to rest people but clearly I f--ked up in my selection and then maybe I would give him some props. This isn't 2010 when we had no depth in players, we have the bench and the people to avoid this type of a shit show now. We better come out strong next week against Cinci.

The only stupid thing on this board is the lack of nuance is with regard to how the mls operates and the ability to field a strong starting 11 when you have to load management the 4-5 of your top salaried players.

Everyone blames Vanney and not the players. They are professional athletes that get paid and if they aren’t good enough or had a bad day why don’t they raise their hand and say my bad, i was terrible today. But no
its always on Vanney

with respect to the day 1 comment that was a reply to call me a corporate shill. But at the end of the day As I said before our starting lineup is contender worthy, the world isn’t ending we will make the playoffs. Everything needs perspective and most people here lack that

[stegosaurus]

Respectfully, what a stupid comment. You don't know when people started following TFC, you just know when they joined the board.

Although, not all us joined the forum day 1, we have been going to Shoeless since very early days, been suffering throughout and can relate. What the major beef is that, TFC is a pimple on the MLSE revenue and expense lines. We saw what a winner could do for a city and a fan base. To be competitive now is the mandate and why not be a bigger spending team (they can afford it). It generates great content for the media outlets and TFC has one of the most vocal and loyal fan bases. You go to the game and you don't sit on your ass and have fun. The fans deserve more than what we got yesterday.

To put a competitive team on the field is challenging but not impossible.... from a coaching perspective, we put our two weakest defenders on with an inexperienced but getting better holding midfielder in Fraser. All three goals were shit, it looked like 2017. We dominate the play and then let a counter attack destroy us. He should have then let Bono play to be consistent and hang out to dry as well.

We had momentum ... Vanney needs to stand up and say, I tried to rest people but clearly I f--ked up in my selection and then maybe I would give him some props. This isn't 2010 when we had no depth in players, we have the bench and the people to avoid this type of a shit show now. We better come out strong next week against Cinci.

TFC already is a big spending team in this league, but the “pimple” comment is just as apt for TFC’s relevance to media. If we spent double the second place team the media numbers would still be bad, so it doesn’t really matter.

Other teams spend less and get better results, so that’s not even a good reason to spend a lot of money.

We honestly don’t have very great bench players either at this point either (partially because a lot of them are overpaid).

[TheGoodson]

The smoking gun was mavinga not playing. This is how you know he threw the game.

the earth is flat as well right...

[stevep]

the earth is flat as well right...

Illuminati flat Earth is so few years ago. Now the term to use is the matrix.

[notthesun]

Going through our season and looking at lineups... holy crap Zavaleta has been an absolute disaster. He's started 11 games and we've given up 2 or 3 goals in every single one except the scoreless draw vs. DC. He's actually unplayable at this point. Thankfully, assuming he signed the standard 2+1 extension after 2017, we can decline his option at the end of this year.

Ciman has basically been able to tread water with a good partner and has sunk otherwise. Obviously not worth his pay grade. Hopefully we only signed him for 1 year, though I guess he could probably be moved to France or Belgium if it comes to that.

[MightyDM]

Is everyone done bitching yet?

JFC... three games in 7 days in this oppressive heat and humidity. There was going to be squad rotations, last nights game goes to show us that our depth isn’t what is was like 2017 and in a salary capped league is near impossible to have. Last night showed that the following players aren’t good enough: Zavaletta, champman, ciman and Mullan. Maybe ciman can play with a better defender next to him. Champman is at best a CPL player.

A lot of the issues with the squad composition is the fault of Bez, his last year and a half everything he did was crap and now we are seeing the effects of this. Curtis needs time, by next year at this point if he hasn’t improved the squad then yes he should go as well. Vanney is doing what he can do with what is given to him. If he would have trotted out a full line up and jozy, Omar or Bradley got hurt then all hell would have broken loose. Just think about it.

Fraser needs to play with better players but yet he is no where near ready to replace Bradley. He slow reacting to plays and his passing is sporadic. No team in the league can win with all 3 DPs out. This team is really missing a proper 9 to back up
Jozy. When there is no reference point up top and a lack of creativity, TFC plays side ways with no impetus to attack.

That being said s healthy TFC is a top 3-5 team in this league and if all of the negative nancies can’t see that maybe it’s time to take up a new sport.

Chapman played well. He’s just not a winger. He’s an inside player where his touch and close play are an asset and his weakness - lack of pace - is less critical.

[noimpactinmtl]

TFC already is a big spending team in this league, but the “pimple” comment is just as apt for TFC’s relevance to media. If we spent double the second place team the media numbers would still be bad, so it doesn’t really matter.

Other teams spend less and get better results, so that’s not even a good reason to spend a lot of money.

We honestly don’t have very great bench players either at this point either (partially because a lot of them are overpaid).

The teams that spend less and get better results have a better academy than we do. The reason why we trod out nephew as our depth CB is because no one down in the farm is remotely ready to take first team minutes.

[MightyDM]

I don’t agree that it’s hindsight. We were saying uh oh from when the line up was announced. It’s not Zavs or Ciman or Fraser but the lack of OG or Moor or Bradley or Marky that was the problem. Obvious to us from when the lineup was announced. Why not obvious to the coach?

[stegosaurus]

The teams that spend less and get better results have a better academy than we do. The reason why we trod out nephew as our depth CB is because no one down in the farm is remotely ready to take first team minutes.

I’m aware of that, though it doesn’t explain why teams that spend less and also don’t have good academies outperform us as well.

Plus spending as much as we did also got us into other problems.

[stevep]

Don’t take it too harshly. There are a lot of wingnut responses on here; just read everything as though it were written by “that uncle” who has since been disallowed from attending family events.

I am not the crazy uncle think of me as Morpheus.

watch this video is only two minutes and 40 seconds. it is an absolutely amazing scene is the movie the matrix

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zE7PKRjrid4

[stegosaurus]

I am not the crazy uncle think of me as Morpheus.

watch this video is only two minutes and 40 seconds. it is an absolutely amazing scene is the movie

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zE7PKRjrid4

Thank you for that thought provoking video. I raise you a “How Can Mirrors Be Real If Our Eyes Aren't Real?”

[ag futbol]

Chapman played well. He’s just not a winger. He’s an inside player where his touch and co trim are an asset and his weakness - lack of pace - is less critical.
I think his pace is acceptable. He’s not fast but not slow either by any means.

Missing from his game is getting stuck-in more often. If he’d battle it out with the type of tenacity we saw from Osorio when he was trying to get back into the lineup, we’d actually be getting somewhere.

[stegosaurus]

I think his pace is acceptable. He’s not fast but not slow either by any means.

Missing from his game is getting stuck-in more often. If he’d battle it out with the type of tenacity we saw from Osorio when he was trying to get back into the lineup, we’d actually be getting somewhere.

He’s too indecisive and plays like he’s scared. That’s my issue with him.

If you look at iPod Shuffle you’ll see the difference between a guy who is going all out and a guy scared to make tackles or go in on a defender.

He has looked okay as a backup in the creative mid role at times in the past, but again he’s not really getting any better and he really isn’t a solution on the wing.

[ag futbol]

He’s too indecisive and plays like he’s scared. That’s my issue with him.

If you look at iPod Shuffle you’ll see the difference between a guy who is going all out and a guy scared to make tackles or go in on a defender.

He has looked okay as a backup in the creative mid role at times in the past, but again he’s not really getting any better and he really isn’t a solution on the wing.
I’m not particularly sure what Chapman’s future is on this team either. It’s a numbers game in midfield right now and opportunities to play are slim.

That said, nobody in the shuttler-type role is playing particularly well. It’s there to be taken for someone that wants in. Delgado, Osorio, DeLeon (who we occasionally use there), have all been pretty meddling.

[ensco]

For the record, I'm not calling for Vanney's head. I just think he made a major blunder that wasn't called for under the circumstances, and at home no less. Squad rotation is a must at this time of year, but he clearly went overboard and didn't give us much of a chance last night. Hopefully, it was a lesson learned.

I still believe he is more than capable of leading a healthy TFC squad moving forward.

This is where I am.

No way do I think that the people who are upset are “wrong”. We spend more than anyone and are a 500 team. There is plenty to criticize. My personal belief is that Vanney’s Man City infatuation is clouding his judgment- nobody in MLS can be that team.

Vanney btw did the exact same thing he did last night in 2016 and 2017, and it worked.

[MightyDM]

I think his pace is acceptable. He’s not fast but not slow either by any means.

Missing from his game is getting stuck-in more often. If he’d battle it out with the type of tenacity we saw from Osorio when he was trying to get back into the lineup, we’d actually be getting somewhere.

That’s fair. Another post pointed out how some of the aggression has been coached out of players like Chapman. Not sure of the accuracy of that but it’s fair to say players trying to break in can be hesitant.

[Bushmancan]

The only stupid thing on this board is the lack of nuance is with regard to how the mls operates and the ability to field a strong starting 11 when you have to load management the 4-5 of your top salaried players.

Everyone blames Vanney and not the players. They are professional athletes that get paid and if they aren’t good enough or had a bad day why don’t they raise their hand and say my bad, i was terrible today. But no
its always on Vanney

with respect to the day 1 comment that was a reply to call me a corporate shill. But at the end of the day As I said before our starting lineup is contender worthy, the world isn’t ending we will make the playoffs. Everything needs perspective and most people here lack that

Thats a fair response, who knows perhaps Mavinga had a knock. What I am saying is that I could see 1, 2 or even 3 significant players being rested. But we had Poz (Injury), Gallardo (Knock), OG (Rest), Bradley (Rest), Jozy (Rest), Moore (Injury-Almost Ready), Laryea (One could argue, player for player exchange), Delgado. That is pretty drastic.

On the point the world wasn't ending, I thought the same thing this time last year and was glad we went for it, but we may need the 3 points in October, playoffs are not guaranteed. There is no reason, we shouldn't make it and when healthy we can make a deep run but remember it is a one game knock-out this fall.

See you at Shoeless on Saturday.

COYRs

[MightyDM]

This is where I am.

No way do I think that the people who are upset are “wrong”. We spend more than anyone and are a 500 team. There is plenty to criticize. My personal belief is that Vanney’s Man City infatuation is clouding his judgment- nobody in MLS can be that team.

Vanney btw did the exact same thing he did last night in 2016 and 2017, and it worked.

I agree to the bigger point - Vanney is capable of coaching this team to success. However, the luck we had with depleted lineups in 2017 ended in 2018 and by now he should have learned his lesson. There were a number of things obvious to any students of TFC about that lineup where weaknesses of players were not protected by strengths of others - so much so it was bizarre. It was almost like he said “ you guys are all complaining about minutes. Here you go and good luck with that”

I also think the company line that it was lack of energy at the start is nonsense. It didn’t look that way at the game at all. It was lack of focus and commitment to defense by two or three players; maybe four, at key momenta. And these were players that ahead of time people said “why are you playing them together”

It’s an odd blind spot for Vanney. And he sure looked angry afterwards.

[MightyDM]

I predict that none from that lineup except Q and Morrow starts next game. Oso and Mullins will make the bench, maybe Deleon and Endoh too. Moor will be the CB on the bench.

[Initial B]

I'd like to post something from the MLS website about Vanney's comments on Keystone Cops defending.


TFC have struggled to field a full first-choice XI all season, due to injuries, international absences and fixture congestion. Vanney lamented Saturday's loss did not feature players stepping up to the occasion."It didn’t work for us in terms of rotating the guys," he said. "It was an opportunity, it should’ve been a group of guys the were eager to go out and push it and prove something and it just came out real slow and passive."
And the manager said there were no guarantees moving forward.
“When our team wasn’t so deep and we had a lot of guys away, if you don’t have a great performance maybe you get another chance. This is one where maybe you don’t get another chance, we’ll see.”

The way I see it, Vanney put his faith on the line in those guys, and they let him down. Whether that is on Vanney not including more stabilizing influences on the field or not, I'm thinking a couple of players played themselves out of the starting lineup last night and won't get another chance. Zavaleta and Chapman come to mind. Ciman is now buried at the bottom of the depth chart just ahead of Zavs. Mullins is probably not back next year. We're going to see a lot of projects come to an end after this season and new blood coming in from below.

[MightyDM]

I'd like to post something from the MLS website about Vanney's comments on Keystone Cops defending.



The way I see it, Vanney put his faith on the line in those guys, and they let him down. Whether that is on Vanney not including more stabilizing influences on the field or not, I'm thinking a couple of players played themselves out of the starting lineup last night and won't get another chance. Zavaleta and Chapman come to mind. Ciman is now buried at the bottom of the depth chart just ahead of Zavs. Mullins is probably not back next year. We're going to see a lot of projects come to an end after this season and new blood coming in from below.

I watched him say that. I think Ciman was top of mind for him at that moment - it came before or right after” ridiculous defending “ comment.

[paul-collins]

Thats a fair response, who knows perhaps Mavinga had a knock. What I am saying is that I could see 1, 2 or even 3 significant players being rested. But we had Poz (Injury), Gallardo (Knock), OG (Rest), Bradley (Rest), Jozy (Rest), Moore (Injury-Almost Ready), Laryea (One could argue, player for player exchange), Delgado. That is pretty drastic.

Since Mavinga played - what - 20 minutes on Wednesday, I would have expected him to start last night. To me that was the one thing you could have done to the rolled lineup and it would have improved the defence... The rest I understand, since both Wednesday and last night were so bloody humid. Thank god we're out of that stretch weatherwise.

[stegosaurus]

I'd like to post something from the MLS website about Vanney's comments on Keystone Cops defending.



The way I see it, Vanney put his faith on the line in those guys, and they let him down. Whether that is on Vanney not including more stabilizing influences on the field or not, I'm thinking a couple of players played themselves out of the starting lineup last night and won't get another chance. Zavaleta and Chapman come to mind. Ciman is now buried at the bottom of the depth chart just ahead of Zavs. Mullins is probably not back next year. We're going to see a lot of projects come to an end after this season and new blood coming in from below.

Right re: chances, but you’ve got to wonder with the number of times Vanney has commented on players basically not performing up to snuff or doing what they were told...

[Blizzard]

Right re: chances, but you’ve got to wonder with the number of times Vanney has commented on players basically not performing up to snuff or doing what they were told...

Was his faith realistic or was it just wishful thinking?

[DinamoTFC]

Tata martino played his best players game in and game out with very few rotations and had his team playing 10x the intensity we do most games.

Pozuelo said in multiple interviews he would rather play 3 games a week instead of training.

Our team is always lacking energy, motivation, focus even with the insane amount of rotations. This is solely on Vanney.

[noimpactinmtl]

Was his faith realistic or was it just wishful thinking?

The real question is what choice does he have? It’s the third game in a week and at some point, depth players have to be rotated in and Houston looked as good as any. The only mistake I would say Vanney made was not inserting a double pivot instead of a single pivot to better protect the backline.

If you don’t have faith in your players, you have already undermined the team.

[69Chevy396]

The real question is what choice does he have? It’s the third game in a week and at some point, depth players have to be rotated in and Houston looked as good as any. The only mistake I would say Vanney made was not inserting a double pivot instead of a single pivot to better protect the backline.

If you don’t have faith in your players, you have already undermined the team.

Faith helps, but so does talent, and our bench has very little of the latter.

[Oldtimer]

Official Pravda version c/o Wheeler is that Vanney needed to field that rotated lineup in order to be in good shape for an eastern conference run.

https://twitter.com/GarethWheeler/status/1152754261928943617?s=20

If Vanney goes the rest of the season playing the real first team, and they win, then probably most people will probably not forgive this loss, but see it in a broader context.

I'm still trying to understand his choices for games like these and I'm not sure I agree that Wheeler is saying it like it exactly is.

[Blizzard]

Official Pravda version c/o Wheeler is that Vanney needed to field that rotated lineup in order to be in good shape for an eastern conference run.

https://twitter.com/GarethWheeler/status/1152754261928943617?s=20

If Vanney goes the rest of the season playing the real first team, and they win, then probably most people will probably not forgive this loss, but see it in a broader context.

I'm still trying to understand his choices for games like these and I'm not sure I agree that Wheeler is saying it like it exactly is.

We can probably factor in the fact that Houston is a western division opponent so it's only a three point game, not a six point game vs. a division rival.

Ya, they win put they aren't pulling ahead of us in a play-off race unlike an eastern division rival.

Also, our next match is vs. Cincinnati, the league's current punching bag at 0.77 PPG.

[backbeat]

We can probably factor in the fact that Houston is a western division opponent so it's only a three point game, not a six point game vs. a division rival.

Ya, they win put they aren't pulling ahead of us in a play-off race unlike an eastern division rival.

Also, our next match is vs. Cincinnati, the league's current punching bag at 0.77 PPG.

i don't agree with this at all

we have a week of rest before Cincinnati and 3 points v zero points is still 3 points missed - it's so f'd up

it was purely and simply a minor league management decision to sit the core of the team

simply stunningly stupid - there are really no Ifs, Ands or Buts about it - it would make it somewhat better if Vanney came straight out and admitted it rather than slagging the team he put on the pitch, which he did. that's the part that bothers me the most.

WEAR IT for gods sake.

[Canary10]

The last team I recall rotating that heavily was Portland. They were playing away at Montreal and had a home game 3-4 days later. You need to play to win all your home games.

[James17930]

Was his faith realistic or was it just wishful thinking?

It was both, plus some hubris thrown in for good measure.

He can say those players let him down, and didn't reward his faith, but the point is, as the coach, he should know that that number of changes is not appropriate. We all saw that as soon as the line-up was posted - how can he not see it coaching the team day-in, day-out?

But now he knows. And like he said, some players may have just blown their chances of being here next year.

[Blizzard]

i don't agree with this at all

we have a week of rest before Cincinnati and 3 points v zero points is still 3 points missed - it's so f'd up

it was purely and simply a minor league management decision to sit the core of the team

simply stunningly stupid - there are really no Ifs, Ands or Buts about it - it would make it somewhat better if Vanney came straight out and admitted it rather than slagging the team he put on the pitch, which he did. that's the part that bothers me the most.

WEAR IT for gods sake.

My point is (as I try to read Vanney's mind) if you're going to tank it, it's better to tank it against an out of conference opponent as it limits the potential damage. It's a three-pointer, not a six-pointer.

I don't like what happened either and as I said "somewhere", probably on twitter, with a week to go before the next game, there's no need to do this right now!

[MightyDM]

Rotation- agreed. But most of our injuries have happened in training. So unless Bradley Delgado and Omar are all sitting for training this week, one of them could have played to correct the major weakness with that lineup that we all have identified.

[ag futbol]

Delgado sitting I understand. In his position you log an absolute ton of miles. The rest of the choices are unusual in totality.

Getting a little tired of “we don’t know what happens behind closed doors / training” being used as justification for everything. Did training say it was a good idea to field our two worst CB’s and a inexperienced DM in front of them and then tell the team to bomb forward as usual?

Let’s just own this: There were a lot of awful lineup and tactical choices made and those very clearly cost us the game.

[Blizzard]

Ah yes, few of us are mentioning Delgado. He's going to get a complex. "What about MEEEEEE!"

[MightyDM]

Delgado sitting I understand. In his position you log an absolute ton of miles. The rest of the choices are unusual in totality.

Getting a little tired of “we don’t know what happens behind closed doors / training” being used as justification for everything. Did training say it was a good idea to field our two worst CB’s and a inexperienced DM in front of them and then tell the team to bomb forward as usual?

Let’s just own this: There were a lot of awful lineup and tactical choices made and those very clearly cost us the game.

That sums it up. Thank you

[OgtheDim]

I think we all got a bit of amnesia about something here and that defence that was put out.

Here's a line up from a game we won less then a month ago, against a better team

https://matchcenter.mlssoccer.com/matchcenter/2019-06-26-toronto-fc-vs-atlanta-united-fc/lineup


Note the CB pairing.


OK, Poz out for Mullins isn't a good thing but the rest of that squad looks awfully familiar.

Can we see how this happened?

[C.Ronaldo]

I think we all got a bit of amnesia about something here and that defence that was put out.

Here's a line up from a game we won less then a month ago, against a better team

https://matchcenter.mlssoccer.com/matchcenter/2019-06-26-toronto-fc-vs-atlanta-united-fc/lineup


Note the CB pairing.


OK, Poz out for Mullins isn't a good thing but the rest of that squad looks awfully familiar.

Can we see how this happened?

lareya/delgado is a much harder working and better at D duo than auro, chapman
Fraser having an off night just made it worse

either way, Vanney picked the wrong line up, or didnt prepare his players properly. the 3rd goal suggests he slipped something i their water though.

[OgtheDim]

lareya/delgado is a much harder working and better at D duo than auro, chapman
Fraser having an off night just made it worse

either way, Vanney picked the wrong line up, or didnt prepare his players properly. the 3rd goal suggests he slipped something i their water though.

Agreed on that - the criticism of the inner triangle of Fraser/Zavs/Ciman when they were OK enough against Atlanta is hindisght.

That group suked donkey bits but we had seen it recently.

Vanney was lost for words on the 3rd goal - hell, I've seen some awful stuff in years of watching MLS but that was about the worst defensive thing I've ever seen.

I'm personally done with Ciman unless he has somebody beside him like Gonzalez. Just too hero style without the physical ability to get back like Mavinga.

[Auzzy]

I think we all got a bit of amnesia about something here and that defence that was put out.

Here's a line up from a game we won less then a month ago, against a better team

https://matchcenter.mlssoccer.com/matchcenter/2019-06-26-toronto-fc-vs-atlanta-united-fc/lineup


Note the CB pairing.


OK, Poz out for Mullins isn't a good thing but the rest of that squad looks awfully familiar.

Can we see how this happened?

Yeah a big part of this Saturday was individual comical defending (although there was also one goal like that vs. Atlanta).

However Pozuelo is a HUGE upgrade over our squad vs. Houston. Watch the highlights: he wasn't just playing striker. He was roaming all over the field, maintaining possession and threatening Atlanta.

Plus the Schaff is a big upgrade in speed & pinning back the opposition vs. Chapman. Watch the goals we created.

Plus Delgado provides more defensive help to Fraser than we had vs. Houston.

Plus the Atlanta result was pretty lucky, including two PKs 90+ minutes, and only ours going in.

Plus the way the Atlanta played over against Houston, with Houston bunkering and playing on the counter. (Atlanta much more open.) Osorio and the rest of our starting offense on Saturday couldn't break that down. That style of play also works well in the oppressive weather of Saturday. (The weather on June 26th was better.)

[MightyDM]

I think we all got a bit of amnesia about something here and that defence that was put out.

Here's a line up from a game we won less then a month ago, against a better team

https://matchcenter.mlssoccer.com/matchcenter/2019-06-26-toronto-fc-vs-atlanta-united-fc/lineup


Note the CB pairing.


OK, Poz out for Mullins isn't a good thing but the rest of that squad looks awfully familiar.

Can we see how this happened?

Fair enough but Poz and Marky (and Shaff) is quite different than Oso and Mullins given that Marky is defensive. But fair enough; perhaps we have been a bit hard on Vanney.

[Auzzy]

One more big difference: most of the lineup choices on June 26th were forced, as Osorio, Bradley & Altidore were away on international duty. In that case, everyone is more likely to grin & bear it, live with the results. Lots of the anger for Saturday is due to most of the lineup choices being optional / based on Vanney's choices. With our best player / Pozuelo already out due to injury, I don't think it was the time for massive experiments.

[OgtheDim]

One more big difference: most of the lineup choices on June 26th were forced, as Osorio, Bradley & Altidore were away on international duty. In that case, everyone is more likely to grin & bear it, live with the results. Lots of the anger for Saturday is due to most of the lineup choices being optional / based on Vanney's choices. With our best player / Pozuelo already out due to injury, I don't think it was the time for massive experiments.

Partly true - the 4 optional choices on Saturday were Bradley, Delgado, Altidore & Shaff. Mavinga was injured & Gonzalez had a knock we were told earlier in the week.

The CB pairing was the only 2 CB's available really.

[Auzzy]

Partly true - the 4 optional choices on Saturday were Bradley, Delgado, Altidore & Shaff. Mavinga was injured & Gonzalez had a knock we were told earlier in the week.

The CB pairing was the only 2 CB's available really.

OK thanks, I forgot about González. But they had only said cramping & managing minutes for him; still seemed possible if necessary (which is likely why he was on the bench). See the Steve Buffery article linked near the beginning of this thread. (TFC had also said Drew Moor would be available for the game, on a limited basis.) Maybe Vanney would have put González on late, if he hadn't used up all 3 subs by then in an attempt to save the game?

Where did you hear Mavinga was injured? Wasn't mentioned in any of the game previews or other articles I've seen. Everybody had Mavinga written into their rosters here in this thread, until TFC released the final lineup an hour before the game, and nobody mentioned anything else.

All these injuries sound like last year, which reminds me: I would REALLY love to hear what happened to that sports science company that was supposed to be hired for this year, to avoid a repeat.

In any case: if only 2nd to 3rd choice CBs were available, and Pozuelo out injured, I would think that leaves zero room for other roster experiments in the same game. Or play very conservatively. (Why does TFC hardly ever bunker; what other teams do against us successfully so often?)

[reggie]

Or play very conservatively. (Why does TFC hardly ever bunker; what other teams do against us successfully so often?)

vanney bunker...lol jus call him pep vanney,he has a fascination with MAN CITY.

[Auzzy]

Or play very conservatively. (Why does TFC hardly ever bunker; what other teams do against us successfully so often?)

vanney bunker...lol jus call him pep vanney,he has a fascination with MAN CITY.

Champagne taste on a beer budget. (Beer budget outside of the DPs, that is.)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1L8zGfKDCCY

[SoccMan2]

Any idiot knows that in every season games come up that the chances of getting a win are greater in game A than game B, Houston was a game A where the chances of getting a win was a greater, but points were thrown away by the Vanney brain fart! All this does now is put even greater pressure on this team to get points in their remaining games now, added pressure you don’t need to put on your team if you can avoid it. Sure there is always pressure to win but now for example in the next home game versus Cincinnati there will be even more pressure to win than there would have been before . Moreover, let’s face it with this new ridiculous playoff format being the 7th. seed is almost like not making the playoffs at all because you will never have a home game by finishing 7th. which will suck for the fans. Furthermore, we have better chances buying the winning lottery ticket than a 7th. seed going to the MLS Cup.

[OgtheDim]

I think people are overemphasising home field advantage in a one & done cup playoff sytem. Yes, you'd rather be at home but grinding out results away is a skillset in and of itself.

See Portland @ LAFC in the US Open a couple of weeks ago.

[Super]

I think people are overemphasising home field advantage in a one & done cup playoff sytem. Yes, you'd rather be at home but grinding out results away is a skillset in and of itself.

See Portland @ LAFC in the US Open a couple of weeks ago.

Home advantage is HUGE in the MLS. There are always exceptions to the rule of course. It's Vanney's job to make sure that we have playoff action in Toronto, not just to limp into the playoffs. We're not satisfied with just making the playoffs (our first playoff experience was a bad away loss to Montreal - no playoff action in Toronto). If Vanney fails at this objective he'll have to find himself another job - maybe a less ambitious club/fan base would be happy with him.

[Hamilton_Red]

The major crime that was made in this Houston game is playing with momentum. After the two good wins that had this 3rd game in a week was against a team that was equally tired and playing their 3rd game also. We were at home and had most of our top players fit save Poz. Houston have a terrible away record...we should have had the best players on and expected a lead at half-time - then start resting players. I had started to believe that with the team we had we could have a run for first in the East. We had two weeks after with only one game each week. The most important thing we needed was to maintain that momentum. That was thrown away in manner that destroys confidence in the squad. It also breaks faith with the fans...who pay good money to see the best players - did they tell you in advance it was going to be the B squad..offer you a rebate...we expected to see a contest with the best players available.

[MightyDM]

The major crime that was made in this Houston game is playing with momentum. After the two good wins that had this 3rd game in a week was against a team that was equally tired and playing their 3rd game also. We were at home and had most of our top players fit save Poz. Houston have a terrible away record...we should have had the best players on and expected a lead at half-time - then start resting players. I had started to believe that with the team we had we could have a run for first in the East. We had two weeks after with only one game each week. The most important thing we needed was to maintain that momentum. That was thrown away in manner that destroys confidence in the squad. It also breaks faith with the fans...who pay good money to see the best players - did they tell you in advance it was going to be the B squad..offer you a rebate...we expected to see a contest with the best players available.

The first part of this is how I feel. Don’t risk momentum and confidence.

[portu]

I think people are overemphasising home field advantage in a one & done cup playoff sytem. Yes, you'd rather be at home but grinding out results away is a skillset in and of itself.

See Portland @ LAFC in the US Open a couple of weeks ago.
Winning 4 games on the road in a row is a tall task for any club. Home field advantage is massive.

[ag futbol]

The first part of this is how I feel. Don’t risk momentum and confidence.
Ditto. The decision felt egg headed.

And I still question why we went all in on games 1 and 2 and then essentially took game 3 off. Was there not room to find more balance?

[JuliquE]

Ditto. The decision felt egg headed.

And I still question why we went all in on games 1 and 2 and then essentially took game 3 off. Was there not room to find more balance?
The first two games were against Eastern conference teams we're directly chasing, with one being our rival—must-wins; makes sense that we really went for it, in those. Unfortunately, the third game in eight days comes at home, in what feels like 45 degree heat, against a Western conference side; it's a gamble, but if there's a match, of the three, you can afford to lose, it's that one.

Even if he rested most of the players and left one or two starters in, there would have been people calling that "egg-headed," as it was a losing cause and they (the couple starters), too, could have used the rest—I mean, imagine if one of said starters pulled up injured (out for "x" weeks, etc.). I would ask who you felt should have started, that also started the first two games; would be hard to mention anyone, under the circumstances, that wasn't desperately in need of rest, for one reason or another.

I just feel like this whole thing is being a tad blown out of proportion, and people might be falling victim to their own narratives.

[Derko]

I am tired of hearing about the heat and humidity or the artificial turf excuses for losing games, the teams that have beaten TFC were playing in those very same conditions.
Poor roster decisions by Greg Vanney, I feel Greg has made some very weird substitutions at times.

[DinamoTFC]

I'm still really pissed about last game even after a few days of cooling off.
Throwing away momentum and literally giving away free points that majority of us could predict based on the line up.
The money, the time, the travel, the effort we all put into this team game in and out as supporters just felt like a big slap in the face.
It wasn't just a one time thing, he's done this many times over the past year or two.

[stegosaurus]

I am tired of hearing about the heat and humidity or the artificial turf excuses for losing games, the teams that have beaten TFC were playing in those very same conditions.
Poor roster decisions by Greg Vanney, I feel Greg has made some very weird substitutions at times.

The heat/humidity and artificial turf excuses aren’t really the best things to point out here, because they actually do impact team performance.

If you don’t play every game on the slip ‘n slide, and you don’t want your players to sustain injuries due to poor surfaces, clearly you aren’t going to perform as well as a team that does.

Same thing goes for heat/humidity. Have you been to Houston? If the team is playing in those conditions normally, that sort of weather is an advantage.

It’s the same reason a team from a tropical nation isn’t going to perform as well in freezing temperatures with a snowstorm, or why altitude is a pretty big advantage in general.

It’s not the be-all-end-all, and it certainly doesn’t determine the results outright, but a team like Houston that constantly plays in conditions only Shrek would find appealing definitely has an advantage playing in those conditions.

[TFC Tifoso]

The first two games were against Eastern conference teams we're directly chasing, with one being our rival—must-wins; makes sense that we really went for it, in those. Unfortunately, the third game in eight days comes at home, in what feels like 45 degree heat, against a Western conference side; it's a gamble, but if there's a match, of the three, you can afford to lose, it's that one.

Even if he rested most of the players and left one or two starters in, there would have been people calling that "egg-headed," as it was a losing cause and they (the couple starters), too, could have used the rest—I mean, imagine if one of said starters pulled up injured (out for "x" weeks, etc.). I would ask who you felt should have started, that also started the first two games; would be hard to mention anyone, under the circumstances, that wasn't desperately in need of rest, for one reason or another.

I just feel like this whole thing is being a tad blown out of proportion, and people might be falling victim to their own narratives.

so much truth everywhere in this post....but especially the part I bolded.

Its really not that difficult to get for any line of thinking that includes logic....

[MightyDM]

so much truth everywhere in this post....but especially the part I bolded.

Its really not that difficult to get for any line of thinking that includes logic....

Sure. But you don’t play Fraser alone or not play Gonzalez. He played a lineup that all observers knew would be vulnerable to the counter against a counter attacking team. Not smart. Also, as others have pointed out, he could have used some subs in one of the other games - for example, Chapman is a good possession Player and would have fit in well against the NY RB press.

I don’t think anyone is saying he should not have rotated. But a lot of us are saying he should not have rotated so many at once - and should have protected the back better even if he did.

[Bushmancan]

Sure. But you don’t play Fraser alone or not play Gonzalez. He played a lineup that all observers knew would be vulnerable to the counter against a counter attacking team. Not smart. Also, as others have pointed out, he could have used some subs in one of the other games - for example, Chapman is a good possession Player and would have fit in well against the NY RB press.

I don’t think anyone is saying he should not have rotated. But a lot of us are saying he should not have rotated so many at once - and should have protected the back better even if he did.

100% Agree - By the way Gonzalez just spend 4 years in Mexico. I think he could handle the heat, not picking on Gonzalez. I like him.

[ag futbol]

Sure. But you don’t play Fraser alone or not play Gonzalez. He played a lineup that all observers knew would be vulnerable to the counter against a counter attacking team. Not smart. Also, as others have pointed out, he could have used some subs in one of the other games - for example, Chapman is a good possession Player and would have fit in well against the NY RB press.

I don’t think anyone is saying he should not have rotated. But a lot of us are saying he should not have rotated so many at once - and should have protected the back better even if he did.
^Exactly.

He brought on several stronger parts at the half being down 2-0 (seemingly to save any further embarrassment).

Why not play conservatively for 45 minutes and then go out to win the game in the second half?

[TFC Tifoso]

Sure. But you don’t play Fraser alone or not play Gonzalez. He played a lineup that all observers knew would be vulnerable to the counter against a counter attacking team. Not smart. Also, as others have pointed out, he could have used some subs in one of the other games - for example, Chapman is a good possession Player and would have fit in well against the NY RB press.

I don’t think anyone is saying he should not have rotated. But a lot of us are saying he should not have rotated so many at once - and should have protected the back better even if he did.

He had 6 points in his pocket against conference competition. This is the whole point imo. Play your strongest squad against the conference teams, and go balls out to get what you need there.
Had any of the results against MTL or NYRB gone differently, I could accept that he should've taken a different approach v HOU, as an attempt to make those lost points up.
Though I do expect 3 points again v Cinci this weekend.

[stegosaurus]

He had 6 points in his pocket against conference competition. This is the whole point imo. Play your strongest squad against the conference teams, and go balls out to get what you need there.
Had any of the results against MTL or NYRB gone differently, I could accept that he should've taken a different approach v HOU, as an attempt to make those lost points up.
Though I do expect 3 points again v Cinci this weekend.

I think the point isn’t that a loss to a Western team is a horrible result given the context (it isn’t), but rather that there’s a difference between playing “balls out” with the B-side and losing 3-1 and playing cautiously for a result of some sort.

If Houston is terrible on the road (and aren’t so hot overall), there’s an opportunity to rest players, get backups or kids some playing time, all while not losing in a spectacular fashion.

Playing a boring match at home isn’t ideal, but a draw or small loss is better than losing so badly to a team who hasn’t won on the road in ages that you have to sub on the players you were trying to rest.

We didn’t have to give Houston 3 points; DC came here this season, barely even touched the ball or moved it out of their half, and still managed a draw. TFC should be able to do that too.

[ag futbol]

He had 6 points in his pocket against conference competition. This is the whole point imo. Play your strongest squad against the conference teams, and go balls out to get what you need there.
Had any of the results against MTL or NYRB gone differently, I could accept that he should've taken a different approach v HOU, as an attempt to make those lost points up.
Though I do expect 3 points again v Cinci this weekend.
Nobody is stating the points against the east teams weren’t more important.

The criticisms are about tactics, building of momentum, and use of available players. Some of the “weak” players against Houston would be perfectly fine (or entirely substitutable) with a stronger squad around them. That could have been a workable solution this week rather than the all-or-nothing approach to squad rotation we used.

[Graeme]

100% Agree - By the way Gonzalez just spend 4 years in Mexico. I think he could handle the heat, not picking on Gonzalez. I like him.

Gonzalez was injured.

[ag futbol]

Gonzalez was injured.
And yet still on the subs bench.

[Derko]

Okay perhaps it was an oversimplified statement, but it almost always becomes if not an excuse a reason for underperformance, had Vanney played his best available, TFC would have likely won the match.


The heat/humidity and artificial turf excuses aren’t really the best things to point out here, because they actually do impact team performance.

If you don’t play every game on the slip ‘n slide, and you don’t want your players to sustain injuries due to poor surfaces, clearly you aren’t going to perform as well as a team that does.

Same thing goes for heat/humidity. Have you been to Houston? If the team is playing in those conditions normally, that sort of weather is an advantage.

It’s the same reason a team from a tropical nation isn’t going to perform as well in freezing temperatures with a snowstorm, or why altitude is a pretty big advantage in general.

It’s not the be-all-end-all, and it certainly doesn’t determine the results outright, but a team like Houston that constantly plays in conditions only Shrek would find appealing definitely has an advantage playing in those conditions.

[Auzzy]

Gonzalez was injured.

Gonzalez was not injured. Read the pre-game articles. He had some cramping the previous game, so they wanted to give him a break. Good chance that Vanney could have subbed him on for a bit in the 2nd half. But he had to do all 3 subs early, and focus on attack, in an attempt to save the game after being down 2-0 before the half.

Plus Vanney's comments after the game didn't make much sense. "We didn’t come out with any energy in the first (half). Everything was very stagnate, slow, passive, too soft."

The main problem from the start was the weak defense (and weak defensive midfield). TFC gave up a goal within 4 minutes. Houston would have bunkered & countered anyway. After the super early goal, they could do that to the extreme while still aiming for a win. Energy and speed don't help much against a bunkering team, especially when you don't have most of your attack force on the field.

[TFC Tifoso]

I think the point isn’t that a loss to a Western team is a horrible result given the context (it isn’t), but rather that there’s a difference between playing “balls out” with the B-side and losing 3-1 and playing cautiously for a result of some sort.

If Houston is terrible on the road (and aren’t so hot overall), there’s an opportunity to rest players, get backups or kids some playing time, all while not losing in a spectacular fashion.

Playing a boring match at home isn’t ideal, but a draw or small loss is better than losing so badly to a team who hasn’t won on the road in ages that you have to sub on the players you were trying to rest.

We didn’t have to give Houston 3 points; DC came here this season, barely even touched the ball or moved it out of their half, and still managed a draw. TFC should be able to do that too.


Nobody is stating the points against the east teams weren’t more important.

The criticisms are about tactics, building of momentum, and use of available players. Some of the “weak” players against Houston would be perfectly fine (or entirely substitutable) with a stronger squad around them. That could have been a workable solution this week rather than the all-or-nothing approach to squad rotation we used.

fair enough guys....matter of expectations, I guess.

I wasn't the least bit surprised to see the line up that went out on Saturday, considering the games played that week and the circumstances that Saturdays game was played in. I mean, I understand that people say "so and so on TFC is used to playing in the heat", but I also think that is easy to say for you and me who only have to drink beer in the stands over 90 minutes. But to the guy who has already logged 180 minutes in the week, those conditions would be a big factor should anything happen to the player.

Also been stated by some that players who seemed healthy enough to go, may actually not have been.

Though like stegosaurus, I also failed to see the point of subbing on players who Vanney was trying to rest; it seemed entirely counterintuitive to Vanney's "gameplan" for that day...if you're gonna rest them, then rest them...but that is all I could fault him for personally....

But again all this come with the assumption that the rested players will be back v Cinci and that we take 3 points there....anything less is unacceptable to me.

[JuliquE]

He had 6 points in his pocket against conference competition. This is the whole point imo. Play your strongest squad against the conference teams, and go balls out to get what you need there.
Had any of the results against MTL or NYRB gone differently, I could accept that he should've taken a different approach v HOU, as an attempt to make those lost points up.
Though I do expect 3 points again v Cinci this weekend.
Exactly my stance.

People keep mentioning momentum. Does anyone think, last year, when we put out a B-side against Houston, during our CL run, that we lost momentum? Hard for me to imagine our starters feeling demoralized by this loss. If anything, it could see them grow in confidence, knowing that they were needed, from the start… whilst not getting overconfident, seeing as the few starters subbed in weren't good enough to rescue anything—perfect mindset, going into another match against an in-conference team (one we're not chasing, mind).

A few have said Vanney should have rotated the players in the first couple games, but I think this approach fails to respect the fact our opposition in those two games were in decent form, and, again, we're chasing them in the standings; if Vanney tries to go a little more sensible with the line-up, instead of putting out his best side, there would have been a mob after him, should we have dropped points.

It's worth noting that very few players have been named as preferred starters in any of the games; again, I'd really be curious as to how some of his more vehement critics would have lined us up, considering the form of each opponent, etc. (not being facetious; felt Vanney's choices weren't insane, but you wouldn't have thought, based on the comments here… so, I'd really like to see if I could be proven wrong).

[ag futbol]

fair enough guys....matter of expectations, I guess.

I wasn't the least bit surprised to see the line up that went out on Saturday, considering the games played that week and the circumstances that Saturdays game was played in. I mean, I understand that people say "so and so on TFC is used to playing in the heat", but I also think that is easy to say for you and me who only have to drink beer in the stands over 90 minutes. But to the guy who has already logged 180 minutes in the week, those conditions would be a big factor should anything happen to the player.

Also been stated by some that players who seemed healthy enough to go, may actually not have been.

Though like stegosaurus, I also failed to see the point of subbing on players who Vanney was trying to rest; it seemed entirely counterintuitive to Vanney's "gameplan" for that day...if you're gonna rest them, then rest them...but that is all I could fault him for personally....

But again all this come with the assumption that the rested players will be back v Cinci and that we take 3 points there....anything less is unacceptable to me.
Fair enough.

I will say this: in the broader discussion of whether or not Vanney is the right coach for TFC going forward, this game is getting too much attention.

Obviously we’re all upset cause it just happened but i’ll live and die on what someone can do on average (or what they might be capable of achieving at best) rather than only see the worst days.

[MightyDM]

Exactly my stance.

People keep mentioning momentum. Does anyone think, last year, when we put out a B-side against Houston, during our CL run, that we lost momentum? Hard for me to imagine our starters feeling demoralized by this loss. If anything, it could see them grow in confidence, knowing that they were needed, from the start… whilst not getting overconfident, seeing as the few starters subbed in weren't good enough to rescue anything—perfect mindset, going into another match against an in-conference team (one we're not chasing, mind).

A few have said Vanney should have rotated the players in the first couple games, but I think this approach fails to respect the fact our opposition in those two games were in decent form, and, again, we're chasing them in the standings; if Vanney tries to go a little more sensible with the line-up, instead of putting out his best side, there would have been a mob after him, should we have dropped points.

It's worth noting that very few players have been named as preferred starters in any of the games; again, I'd really be curious as to how some of his more vehement critics would have lined us up, considering the form of each opponent, etc. (not being facetious; felt Vanney's choices weren't insane, but you wouldn't have thought, based on the comments here… so, I'd really like to see if I could be proven wrong).

I would have played Gonzalez with Ciman for the Houston game. If that was not possible, then Delgado with Fraser in a “2”. Playing Ciman Zavs and Fraser together was asking for disaster given neither Bradley nor Delgado were on the pitch to provide defensive bite. And unlike the earlier game with a similar lineup, Poz not there to provide control up front. (Marky played that game too).

This was unfair tho the players who played and was obvious from the start.

Two other points - some light rotation in the other games ie Chapman against Red Bull’s given his quality of possession - was certainly possible to enable some players ie Delgado to play this game.

I disagree about last year. That Houston game disrespected the league and was the start of our slide in League play. We never recovered.

I don’t think that will be the case this year but.

[stegosaurus]

Did we ever find out if something was wrong with Delgado as he wasn’t even on the bench?

[Auzzy]

Did we ever find out if something was wrong with Delgado as he wasn’t even on the bench?

Pravda report after the game said Delgado had something minor.

I can't tell if they're underplaying the injury / wear & tear situation before games because they know people are sick of hearing about that. (Or to keep the other team guessing???) And/or if they're overhyping the same topics during/after the games, as excuses. These days there seems to be a very fine line with this team between "almost everybody available" and "almost nobody available."

[JuliquE]

I would have played Gonzalez with Ciman for the Houston game. If that was not possible, then Delgado with Fraser in a “2”. Playing Ciman Zavs and Fraser together was asking for disaster given neither Bradley nor Delgado were on the pitch to provide defensive bite. And unlike the earlier game with a similar lineup, Poz not there to provide control up front. (Marky played that game too).

This was unfair tho the players who played and was obvious from the start.

Two other points - some light rotation in the other games ie Chapman against Red Bull’s given his quality of possession - was certainly possible to enable some players ie Delgado to play this game.

I disagree about last year. That Houston game disrespected the league and was the start of our slide in League play. We never recovered.

I don’t think that will be the case this year but.
Gonzalez was cramping up, after the last game, and they were monitoring him, going into this, whilst Delgado was, of all the players, the one Vanney described as most spent; I think that'd be a huge gamble, and you always want to avoid starting players you, guaranteed, have to sub out.

Had high hopes for Chapman, but I've not been a huge fan of his attitude, on the pitch (don't like to be too critical of what a player does in his/her spare time). I don't think Vanney trusts Chapman in what is fair to have called must-win games, and you really can't fault him, based on what we've seen; not ready to give up on Chapman, but he needs to get it together, and fast.

In fairness, Houston didn't want to reschedule, during our run last year, and that might have been a middle-finger to the league. That said, I think it's clear we put all our eggs into the Champions League basket, where we lost zero momentum, after that Houston match. My point was, when our starters aren't in the line-up, I can't see them too affected by a loss like this, as was proven last year.

[stegosaurus]

Gonzalez was cramping up, after the last game, and they were monitoring him, going into this, whilst Delgado was, of all the players, the one Vanney described as most spent; I think that'd be a huge gamble, and you always want to avoid starting players you, guaranteed, have to sub out.

Had high hopes for Chapman, but I've not been a huge fan of his attitude, on the pitch (don't like to be too critical of what a player does in his/her spare time). I don't think Vanney trusts Chapman in what is fair to have called must-win games, and you really can't fault him, based on what we've seen; not ready to give up on Chapman, but he needs to get it together, and fast.

In fairness, Houston didn't want to reschedule, during our run last year, and that might have been a middle-finger to the league. That said, I think it's clear we put all our eggs into the Champions League basket, where we lost zero momentum, after that Houston match. My point was, when our starters aren't in the line-up, I can't see them too affected by a loss like this, as was proven last year.

I figured that was the case with Marky. Thanks!

[JuliquE]

I figured that was the case with Marky. Thanks!
Cheers! =)

[MightyDM]

Gonzalez was cramping up, after the last game, and they were monitoring him, going into this, whilst Delgado was, of all the players, the one Vanney described as most spent; I think that'd be a huge gamble, and you always want to avoid starting players you, guaranteed, have to sub out.

Had high hopes for Chapman, but I've not been a huge fan of his attitude, on the pitch (don't like to be too critical of what a player does in his/her spare time). I don't think Vanney trusts Chapman in what is fair to have called must-win games, and you really can't fault him, based on what we've seen; not ready to give up on Chapman, but he needs to get it together, and fast.

In fairness, Houston didn't want to reschedule, during our run last year, and that might have been a middle-finger to the league. That said, I think it's clear we put all our eggs into the Champions League basket, where we lost zero momentum, after that Houston match. My point was, when our starters aren't in the line-up, I can't see them too affected by a loss like this, as was proven last year.


All good points, but then Vanney should have managed Marky better. Every player in the field v Houston has contributed usefully to wins (save Mullins ). It was the combination that was obviously wrong as weaknesses were magnified rather than being offset by strengths. Anyway, I am belaboring this. Thanks for your perspective; it’s always informed, fair and supportive to the club.

[JuliquE]

All good points, but then Vanney should have managed Marky better. Every player in the field v Houston has contributed usefully to wins (save Mullins ). It was the combination that was obviously wrong as weaknesses were magnified rather than being offset by strengths. Anyway, I am belaboring this. Thanks for your perspective; it’s always informed, fair and supportive to the club.
'Preciate that, from you; would be remiss not to return the sentiment.

I, too, feel like there were one or two games earlier on I might have given, for instance, Fraiser time, over Delgado, which might have given Fraiser that bit more confidence/reps. and, as you say, maybe better preserved Delgado to slot in where you suggested.

I tend to agree, that subs and player rotation are probably not Vanney's strength, albeit, ironically enough, his tactical acumen sometimes helps him with the former; guess I just didn't feel like, this time 'round, it was that insane, all considering. Was just happy to see Fraiser back in the side, to be honest.