Match Day 18 TFC @ DC United - Off to Wayne's World - Easy Come Easy Go

[OgtheDim]

https://i.imgur.com/BOEhUh2.png


************************

Have at It People

[Oldtimer]

Westberg or Bono better not go too far off the line:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JV1KBQ0HTRA

[benito]

Westberg or Bono better not go too far off the line:

Nice goal. Pretty amazing how he sees the entire field and knows that he can beat the keeper on the long range strike.

[stegosaurus]

Westberg or Bono better not go too far off the line:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JV1KBQ0HTRA

Westberg saved a similar shot last night from Pity, but our last DCU game was a bit of a nightmare so who knows.

[Ultra & Proud]

Westberg or Bono better not go too far off the line:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JV1KBQ0HTRA
That keeper was on a wander though.

[Section_105]

will be interesting to see if the same type of energy and initiative from last night will translate on the road.

[OgtheDim]

Not expecting much this game & with Canada also playing tonight, likely a lot less busy in here. DCU will not bunker as much as they did when at BMO but they will give us the ball. The trick tonight is going to be quick wide ball movement. With only 3 days between games, there will likely be changes in the lineup - possibly Auro. IF we are on the ball a lot, people have to move and not be static. I know our defence is going to give up at least 1 stupid one.

A draw would be a good result.

[ag futbol]

That keeper was on a wander though.
He looked just a tad slow to recognize it and unfortunately that’s all it took.

Coaches will specifically tell their keepers to go that far out to receive an outlet pass when their own team is comfortable with the ball. The needless turnover put him in the cross hairs.

[OgtheDim]

Apparently we are running out of defenders again.

Auro & Mavinga go but are not fit enough to make the bench. Moor & Zavs out.

So our defence is Laryea, Ciman & Morrow.

And may God have mercy on Westberg's soul.

[trane]

Streams?????

[James17930]

https://telesports.live/sportsauth-genset-137607991177.php

[stegosaurus]

Apparently we are running out of defenders again.

Auro & Mavinga go but are not fit enough to make the bench. Moor & Zavs out.

So our defence is Laryea, Ciman & Morrow.

And may God have mercy on Westberg's soul.

The lineup I saw had a bad mother... (shut your mouth), but I’m talking about Shaftleberg! as striker.

Has Vanney finally transcended time and space to become the master of the mythical 1-9-0 formation?

[stegosaurus]

Spoke too soon. A 1-8-0. Brilliant!

Cuts to Vanney laughing on the bench.

[James17930]

So who should even come on? Akinola, I guess?

[stegosaurus]

So who should even come on? Akinola, I guess?

T-Bizzy.

Also, hehe at Shrek missing that free goal.

[trane]

What the fuck was that??????? Some of the defending this year has been worse then 2007!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[trane]

https://telesports.live/sportsauth-genset-137607991177.php

Thanks.

[James17930]

Well, wasn't expecting that.

Park the bus!

[stegosaurus]

That’s some defending worse than ours.

TFC former player curse strikes DCU!

[James17930]

Thanks.

Here's a better one (but it's YouTube so it might die at some point):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rHy5fLgxZdk&feature=youtu.be

[tfcfans]

Lareya is a keeper - actual pace and literally costs pennies....

[OgtheDim]

Brilliant's tackle - seen red given for that. Scissor job.

Good for DeLeon.

[James17930]

Lareya is a keeper - actual pace and literally costs pennies....

Yeah, he's been improving and growing in confidence every game. Liking his directness.

[trane]

We are just not smart in defending this year, careless. We given the opposition opportunities out of nothing.

[tfcfans]

Bring me some starters back (pray Poz and Jozy stay healthy for the most part), get a TAM player or two in, insert Shaff and Lareya, give Q the bulk of the keeper minutes, and we might have a competent team....if we get any points out of today or Thursday I’ll be ecstatic as I wrote off all four games from Dallas through LA.....

[stegosaurus]

We are just not smart in defending this year, careless. We given the opposition opportunities out of nothing.

We apparently have one fit CB, what else should they do? They haven’t scored yet so perhaps this is secretly our best defense.

[James17930]

Bring me some starters back (pray Poz and Jozy stay healthy for the most part), get a TAM player or two in, insert Shaff and Lareya, give Q the bulk of the keeper minutes, and we might have a competent team....if we get any points out of today or Thursday I’ll be ecstatic as I wrote off all four games from Dallas through LA.....

Yes, but also think of how great it is that we have so many young, competent, Canadian players who can come in and do a decent job while not costing all that much. Chapman, Shaffleburg, Lareya, Hamilton, Fraser. Those guys will be the core in 3-5 years (Well, Chapman is older than the rest).

[stegosaurus]

Yes, but also think of how great it is that we have so many young, competent, Canadian players who can come in and do a decent job while not costing all that much. Chapman, Shaffleburg, Lareya, Hamilton, Fraser. Those guys will be the core in 3-5 years (Well, Chapman is older than the rest).

Some of these players (Chapman, Laryea, Hamilton) will be almost 30 in 5 years, and with MLS budgets likely to rise they probably won’t be “core” members of the squad then (unless the bench is our core).

[James17930]

Too much going backwards and sideways again. We need more quick, decisive forward passes.

[James17930]

Some of these players (Chapman, Laryea, Hamilton) will be almost 30 in 5 years, and with MLS budgets likely to rise they probably won’t be “core” members of the squad then (unless the bench is our core).

Okay, yeah, I keep forgetting some of them are older.

I really mean Fraser, Shaffleburg, and ... I guess that's it.

[trane]

We apparently have one fit CB, what else should they do? They haven’t scored yet so perhaps this is secretly our best defense.

I understand that. But as some of the things that we do at the back, are not excusable for any professional player, even if you are the third option.

I like what I have seen from Fraser, Shaffleburg and Laryea.

[RedsYNWA]

The good news is that we get back our Canada Boys for the next game

[tfcfans]

Reinforcements coming - Canada crashes out against Haiti - Osorio back for LA on Thursday I would think....

[Oldtimer]

Both teams showing the effect of missing starters, but so pleased that TFC is actually being competitive in this situation.

[OgtheDim]

Well the RB situation certainly could be a lot worse I suppose.

[trane]

Both teams showing the effect of missing starters, but so pleased that TFC is actually being competitive in this situation.

Agreed. I like the tactical solution that Vanney has found for who we have available.

[stegosaurus]

Pozo looking like that Carrasco in Chinese League Video.

Edit: also looking unhappy.

[Yohan]

Morrow getting tackling lessons from Mavinga. That was clutch

[stegosaurus]

Morrow my lord.

[stegosaurus]

Vanney did well tonight assuming Pozo is okay and not playing injured. He had nothing and the team is performing well, minus Chapman who has been either invisible or awful.

Ciman is playing very well. He’s never played like this for us before. Very impressive.

Other than Delgado getting robbed just now he’s been good too.

Edit: can’t chip Hamid, Pozo

Edit2: lol endoh

Edit3: lol Laryea Suarez face grab

[OgtheDim]

Wake up


Also a little too early to be kicking the ball up to the half aimlessly.

This team is gassed - a loss here more likely then anything else.

[stegosaurus]

Wake up


Also a little too early to be kicking the ball up to the half aimlessly.

This team is gassed - a loss here more likely then anything else.

Hilariously enough this team is somehow playing better than our first team. Only difference is we scored a goal before not scoring again.

[tfcfans]

Here we go.....can we just get a point please....

[Canary10]

Fuck VAR.

[GBV]

Fuck VAR.

+1

Ruining the sport.

[MightyDM]

That’s why we shouldn’t have VAR at all. The foul on Laryea was not reviewed and was just as clear a foul. It’s inherently unfair. Plus in credibly harsh. That contact happens every corner kick. Every single one.

[stegosaurus]

+1

Ruining the sport.

Bad implementation. Should’ve caught the foul on Laryea first.

Absolute nonsense.

[Super]

Bad implementation. Should’ve caught the foul on Laryea first.

Absolute nonsense.

VAR has been a giant failure. Get rid of it!

[michaeltfc91]

Var strikes again 5th time in 4 games. 0 of them were actually called a penatly

[Canary10]

That’s why we shouldn’t have VAR at all. The foul on Laryea was not reviewed and was just as clear a foul. It’s inherently unfair. Plus in credibly harsh. That contact happens every corner kick. Every single one.

Yeah exactly.

[OgtheDim]

Take the point and run.

On this night, after the results involving the CANMNT & CANWNT....take the point & run thank you very much.


***

Oh, and lets give Osorio the week off to get his head on straight - that loss is going to sit in a few guy's minds for a long time. Have him rested for Montreal.

[tfcfans]

Disappointing ending - but 4 points from the last two games, with this lineup, is something we all would have grabbed a week ago....on to LA, and then hopefully Bradley and Jozy are back (and maybe other additions - TAM (maybe two signings), Mavinga, Moor, Auro, Omar, etc.), for Montreal on the 13th. These four games (three tough road games and home against Atl), looked to be a death knell during the Gold Cup and with tons of injuries, and we survived it - even if we lose to LA on Thursday....

We aren’t great, but we may not be as horrendous as last year.....I guess that’s something....:)

[stegosaurus]

Oh well, shit ending to a game that was miles better than the one we played vs DCU earlier this season.

Points:

1. Still no finishing. Too many balls into the box with nothing on the end of them. Scufflebutt got up there a lot, but not a lot of keeping up with them. Pozo was still way back quite a bit of the game, and without a striker we were lacking in firepower.

2. Some of these players are getting a bad wrap. Everyone hates on Marky, but he had a great game.

Morrow looked better than he does usually. Deleon looked better. Ciman looked better.

3. QW is an excellent MLS keeper on basically no salary.

4. Chapman is the worst link on the C team. Time to move on from a midlife player who hasn’t developed and provides nothing.

5. Endoh wasn’t great but he at least fought for it.

[Areathrasher]

[ignores how game finished] Point on the road. Point on the road. Point on the road. Point on the road.

[stegosaurus]

Disappointing ending - but 4 points from the last two games, with this lineup, is something we all would have grabbed a week ago....on to LA, and then hopefully Bradley and Jozy are back (and maybe other additions - TAM (maybe two signings), Mavinga, Moor, Auro, Oscar, etc.), for Montreal on the 13th. These four games (three tough road games and home against Atl), looked to be a death knell during the Gold Cup and with tons of injuries, and we survived it - even if we lose to LA on Thursday....

We aren’t great, but we may not be as horrendous as last year.....I guess that’s something....:)

Can we please have Oscar?

[ag futbol]

I’m cool with the point. It’s still a good get from this game.

Fuck VAR

[Richard]

I've never seen it so dead in here. Two pages in a thread for pregame, game, and postgame.

[OgtheDim]

I've never seen it so dead in here. Two pages in a thread for pregame, game, and postgame.


Guaranteed if we lose its 5 pages by now.

[stevep]

VAR has been a giant failure. Get rid of it!
They will never get rid of it.
VAR is a great method to script games to the desired outcome.

[MightyDM]

Saturday of a long weekend when the team was on a bad run - but too bad for those who missed it because the last two games have been the most fun since Mexico. Good on ya boys.#VARout

[michaeltfc91]

Var is a joke. Another game proves it.

But lets expand here on a non-bias point of view. the copa America game last night... the Linesmen will not raise the flag for OBVIOUS offsides just incase they score. So now the whole game is flawed because teams are getting chances to score when they should be called offside and not working the defence / goalie. It’s embarrassing. Players walking in on breakaways and missing and they’re heart broken when in fact I’m sitting here not excited at all because I know it will be whistled back for offside. What a joke. The entire game is flawed.

[stegosaurus]

Var is a joke. Another game proves it.

But lets expand here on a non-bias point of view. the copa America game last night... the Linesmen will not raise the flag for OBVIOUS offsides just incase they score. So now the whole game is flawed because teams are getting chances to score when they should be called offside and not working the defence / goalie. It’s embarrassing. Players walking in on breakaways and missing and they’re heart broken when in fact I’m sitting here not excited at all because I know it will be whistled back for offside. What a joke. The entire game is flawed.

... because that’s what the refs are supposed to do as per those who tell them what to do.

VAR isn’t bad, it’s how it’s implemented that is bad. It’s like leagues that don’t have goal line technology suddenly getting mad because keepers are pulling it out.

Eventually it will be codified and make sense. Would you rather illegitimate goals? As long as they fit the storyline?

[tfcfans]

Can we please have Oscar?

Sorry - quick typing leads to bad auto-correct from Omar to Oscar — fixed it now....:)

[michaeltfc91]

... because that’s what the refs are supposed to do as per those who tell them what to do.

VAR isn’t bad, it’s how it’s implemented that is bad. It’s like leagues that don’t have goal line technology suddenly getting mad because keepers are pulling it out.

Eventually it will be codified and make sense. Would you rather illegitimate goals? As long as they fit the storyline?

You just said it. How it is implemented is bad. At this rate I prefer the soccer 5 years ago a million percent. If you beat the naked eye of the ref it’s good enough for me at this point

[GerMc]

Disappointing end, to what wasn't all that bad a game. A few have mentioned that some players who haven't been playing all that well, actually put in a solid 90 minutes. And I do like the speed up the wing. It gives us more options and stops that terrible barging up the middle that we were doing for a while (quite unsuccessfully).

Like others, I will take the point.

[notthesun]

VAR is complete and utter garbage, and I say this as someone who was for it when it was still being discussed/implemented.

Get it out of the game completely, I don't want any version of it. It's a joke. England gets a good goal disallowed in a World Cup and everyone loses their minds and goes way overboard. It's the same neanderthal thinking poisoning the NHL with their offside reviews, because oh Matt Duchene once went offside and scored and with God as my witness may no one ever even think about scoring an offside goal again. It makes me sick. Just keep goal line technology and leave it at that.

I don't even need to bring up all the actual in-game problems with it. It's just god awful to watch games with VAR. Soccer is entertainment first and foremost, and if your attempt to increase the integrity of the game seriously damages the entertainment value, it belongs in the trash. I'm done with it.

I'm praying for a big moment - like in a World Cup knockout game - where VAR clearly fails, something like a team scoring a counter-attack goal only for the VAR to flag for a sketchy penalty right before and it gets called, wiping the goal off and giving one to the team that was actually scored on. Something like that to make these people re-think this.

Sorry, rant over.

[reggie]

# varout

[OgtheDim]

Implementation of the VAR system is poor. They need to provide clarity over who exactly decides what. And they really need to consider micing the refs/VAR either fully all the time like they do in rugby & or like they do in cricket - just during the video reviews.

I suspect that the implementation with the EPL this year is going to result in more codification over how it works.

A large part of this is the stupidity of the current hand ball rule.

[ag futbol]

... because that’s what the refs are supposed to do as per those who tell them what to do.

VAR isn’t bad, it’s how it’s implemented that is bad. It’s like leagues that don’t have goal line technology suddenly getting mad because keepers are pulling it out.

Eventually it will be codified and make sense. Would you rather illegitimate goals? As long as they fit the storyline?
My issue is, regardless of VAR, MLS officials are horrifically inconsistent about what is seen as a foul or not, when to go to review or not, and the reviews take too long to happen. The league seems to think having this system in place will bail them out from investing more in the officiating function and that could not be further from the truth.

Despite having much higher quality players in this league than we used to, this has been the most unwatchable season of soccer I have ever seen. It makes me question the merits of following MLS. It feels like bad theatre organized by someone’s drunk uncle where the actors go on for several minutes before the director screams out “oh ya, we should do that!” and things that you have assumed long since past are revisited.

They should strip this back to red cardable offences only. Live with the human error of the officials and start training them better.

[MightyDM]

Implementation of the VAR system is poor. They need to provide clarity over who exactly decides what. And they really need to consider micing the refs/VAR either fully all the time like they do in rugby & or like they do in cricket - just during the video reviews.

I suspect that the implementation with the EPL this year is going to result in more codification over how it works.

A large part of this is the stupidity of the current hand ball rule.

Its not just the handball. They have changed how the game is refereed to accommodate VAR. it’s logical from a VAR perspective but is wrong from a soccer perspective.

Also, it is not more fair than no VAR - like the foul on Laryea leading up to the goal, which isn’t reviewable but must be if the system is to be fair. It introduces a standard of perfection that is too exacting for soccer and was never meant for this game - such as the possible glancing hand ball against DeLeon last game, which wasn’t visible to the naked eye and had no impact on the game whatsoever, yet examined microscopically on tape was a penalty. Agreed that it is implemented badly, but it’s conceptually wrong. And that cannot be fixed. Soccer is a game meant to flow; it’s not the NFL which stops and starts so much more delays are irrelevant because there is no flow - it’s an interference to the basic nature of the game.

[MightyDM]

My issue is, regardless of VAR, MLS officials are horrifically inconsistent about what is seen as a foul or not, when to go to review or not, and the reviews take too long to happen. The league seems to think having this system in place will bail them out from investing more in the officiating function and that could not be further from the truth.

Despite having much higher quality players in this league than we used to, this has been the most unwatchable season of soccer I have ever seen. It makes me question the merits of following MLS. It feels like bad theatre organized by someone’s drunk uncle where the actors go on for several minutes before the director screams out “oh ya, we should do that!” and things that you have assumed long since past are revisited.

They should strip this back to red cardable offences only. Live with the human error of the officials and start training them better.

I agree with this. I was thinking before I wrote my previous post - and before I read this - whether I wanted to keep watchingVAR soccer. It’s destroying the joy and spontaneity of the game, the exact thing that makes it such a magnificent sport. And I’ve been playing coaching or watching soccer since the 60’s - thinking about leaving the game is a big deal for me. #VARout

[MightyDM]

Also, Akinola was seriously off the pace. Bad sub unfortunately - Boyd or Hamilton would have been the right sub. Led to the goal.

[notthesun]

Soccer's is a game meant to flow; it’s not the NFL which stops and starts so much more delays are irrelevant because there is no flow - it’s an interference to the basic nature of the game.

Well it's funny you mention the NFL because they've been raked over the coals for their use of video review for determining catches.

The problem is video review doesn't help make subjective decisions, it's really that simple. It only helps to answer objective questions that are clear to the naked eye. Did the runner touch the bag before the fielder caught the ball? Who touched the basketball last before it went out of bounds?

VAR is never going to improve in soccer because nobody can actually say what a foul or a handball is. They're judgment calls every single time. Every single implementation of video review for judgment calls in any sport has led to controversy instead of solving it. Hopefully the powers that be eventually understand this.

[JoesphNdo]

VAR is great and every call against us recently was the correct one and the game is better to have them called correctly.

With that said, the implementation needs alot of work. Firstly, it's not the calls it gets but the ones it doesn't. Anyone wanna tell me how VAR doesn't call a penalty here?

https://mobile.twitter.com/JozyAltidore/status/1145343803865391104

(Jozy will pay for that but love that he's calling it out)

The lack of consistency is infuriating. The other issue I have is we should trust the guys in the booth, the referee on the pitch should *never* overrule them which they occasionally let their ego get in the way and do and also they should *never* waste minutes of a game watching a replay themselves which is a waste of time when three guys in a booth with 50 angles are telling the ref so something is clear and obvious - just trust them and make the call

[stegosaurus]

Well it's funny you mention the NFL because they've been raked over the coals for their use of video review for determining catches.

The problem is video review doesn't help make subjective decisions, it's really that simple. It only helps to answer objective questions that are clear to the naked eye. Did the runner touch the bag before the fielder caught the ball? Who touched the basketball last before it went out of bounds?

VAR is never going to improve in soccer because nobody can actually say what a foul or a handball is. They're judgment calls every single time. Every single implementation of video review for judgment calls in any sport has led to controversy instead of solving it. Hopefully the powers that be eventually understand this.

Yes, this is the crux of it.

I’m personally for VAR with an implementation that doesn’t slow down the game, but it seems largely impossible without it being governed by some sort of AI considering the speed of the game, lack of pauses, and complex nature of the rules.

That’s without even touching on referee incompetence.

This penalty was ridiculous, but the penalty after the game was over was even more egregious a mistake. Should we be deep diving videos from last year to take points away from or give them to teams?

Part of it is that MLS refs are bad (so are refs in every league in every sport), but at this point teams have to “play to VAR” and not even “play to the whistle.” May as well have a disembodied whistle instead of refs at all (like the goal line CL official who rarely does anything, even when it involves the goal line).

[MightyDM]

VAR is great and every call against us recently was the correct one and the game is better to have them called correctly.

With that said, the implementation needs alot of work. Firstly, it's not the calls it gets but the ones it doesn't. Anyone wanna tell me how VAR doesn't call a penalty here?

https://mobile.twitter.com/JozyAltidore/status/1145343803865391104

(Jozy will pay for that but love that he's calling it out)

The lack of consistency is infuriating. The other issue I have is we should trust the guys in the booth, the referee on the pitch should *never* overrule them which they occasionally let their ego get in the way and do and also they should *never* waste minutes of a game watching a replay themselves which is a waste of time when three guys in a booth with 50 angles are telling the ref so something is clear and obvious - just trust them and make the call

VAR cannot be used for subjective decisions as was beautifully argued above. And without accepting your premise that VAR was right every time it was used against us, even if it was, there were lots of moments in all of these games where more obvious fouls were let go or were not reviewable because of where they were. This is inevitable unless everything becomes reviewable. Therefore it doesn’t matter how well VAR works, by being overly precise in one part of the game and normal in the rest, it becomes unfair, by definition.

As for the Video, the referee was right there. Looking at it. No need for VAR. just competent refereeing.

[JoesphNdo]

VAR is not used for subjective decisions, it's supposed to be used for 'clear and obvious' errors. That was the remit from day one. It is also only to review certain situations which I believe are penalties, reds and goals, so no it won't catch all the moments in a game which is a trade off for time. It's not unfair as this doesn't favour any team

Whether it's been used as originally desired 100% of the time is another story (And i have issues with implementation as I've said) but, all the recent penalties against TFC were clear and obvious errors. Take your TFC hat off, they all were, not a single one was subjective or debatable. Our enemy in defence is bad decision making, not video review compensating for bad officiating

[stevep]

VAR is great and every call against us recently was the correct one and the game is better to have them called correctly.

With that said, the implementation needs alot of work. Firstly, it's not the calls it gets but the ones it doesn't. Anyone wanna tell me how VAR doesn't call a penalty here?

https://mobile.twitter.com/JozyAltidore/status/1145343803865391104

(Jozy will pay for that but love that he's calling it out)

The lack of consistency is infuriating. The other issue I have is we should trust the guys in the booth, the referee on the pitch should *never* overrule them which they occasionally let their ego get in the way and do and also they should *never* waste minutes of a game watching a replay themselves which is a waste of time when three guys in a booth with 50 angles are telling the ref so something is clear and obvious - just trust them and make the call


You could argue that this was a rigged game. The evidence points to it.

[stegosaurus]

VAR is great and every call against us recently was the correct one and the game is better to have them called correctly.

With that said, the implementation needs alot of work. Firstly, it's not the calls it gets but the ones it doesn't. Anyone wanna tell me how VAR doesn't call a penalty here?

https://mobile.twitter.com/JozyAltidore/status/1145343803865391104

(Jozy will pay for that but love that he's calling it out)

The lack of consistency is infuriating. The other issue I have is we should trust the guys in the booth, the referee on the pitch should *never* overrule them which they occasionally let their ego get in the way and do and also they should *never* waste minutes of a game watching a replay themselves which is a waste of time when three guys in a booth with 50 angles are telling the ref so something is clear and obvious - just trust them and make the call

You’re right, but this also involves eliminating refs entirely, which they won’t want. The whole “lead ref decides what is what” is an important part of having officials, especially humans with differing interpretations of the rules.

It eventually becomes not having officials at all (like a video game), or having bad officials who overrule VAR either by poor judgment or by ego.

[stegosaurus]

You could argue that this was a rigged game. The evidence points to it.

Uhh... this is legitimately nonsense.

[JoesphNdo]

You could argue that this was a rigged game. The evidence points to it.

You think MLS rigged...a home point for DC United? Why!? Let's not lose all perspective here, shit happens, that doesn't mean there's conspiracy theories going on

[MightyDM]

VAR is not used for subjective decisions, it's supposed to be used for 'clear and obvious' errors. That was the remit from day one. It is also only to review certain situations which I believe are penalties, reds and goals, so no it won't catch all the moments in a game which is a trade off for time. It's not unfair as this doesn't favour any team

Whether it's been used as originally desired 100% of the time is another story (And i have issues with implementation as I've said) but, all the recent penalties against TFC were clear and obvious errors. Take your TFC hat off, they all were, not a single one was subjective or debatable. Our enemy in defence is bad decision making, not video review compensating for bad officiating

I have to disagree with you. In a particular game, it’s unfair for fouls not to be given in favour of a team that then gives up a penalty through VAR - see TFC game last night for a perfect example. Over the season it might even out but so what?

Secondly, they have not been called correctly. Deleon’s hand ball, if there was one, was not deliberate and was not a penalty; Pozuelo handball, if deliberate (which is debatable) was not clearly and obviously inside the area. And even if it was by an inch, that’s not a clear and obvious error. Moor’s Wasn’t even a foul.

Thirdly, the referees are already refereeing differently and letting VAR referee. This isn’t like football or goal line technology or rugby where there is a definitive “is it over the line” - these are moving violations with subjective interpretations both on video and in real time, and should be referred the traditional way because there is no absolute answer. Keep the game moving man, that’s it’s beauty.

[stegosaurus]

I have to disagree with you. In a particular game, it’s unfair for fouls not to be given in favour of a team that then gives up a penalty through VAR - see TFC game last night for a perfect example. Over the season it might even out but so what?

Secondly, they have not been called correctly. Deleon’s hand ball, if there was one, was not deliberate and was not a penalty; Pozuelo handball, if deliberate (which is debatable) was not clearly and obviously inside the area. And even if it was by an inch, that’s not a clear and obvious error. Moor’s Wasn’t even a foul.

Thirdly, the referees are already refereeing differently and letting VAR referee. This isn’t like football or goal line technology or rugby where there is a definitive “is it over the line” - these are moving violations with subjective interpretations both on video and in real time, and should be referred the traditional way because there is no absolute answer. Keep the game moving man, that’s it’s beauty.

None of these are issues with VAR in general, though. They’re just issues with refs, subjective calls, and the league telling PRO how games should be officiated.

It’s implementation.

[MightyDM]

http://forums.redpatchboys.ca/blob:http://forums.redpatchboys.ca/9c574570-c3bc-495c-b318-d401b9f49d82

[MightyDM]

None of these are issues with VAR in general, though. They’re just issues with refs, subjective calls, and the league telling PRO how games should be officiated.

It’s implementation.

No, they are structural. Trying to make a subjective game absolute. That’s why they are now calling all hand balls instead of intentional hand balls, which is the rule - to make it easier for VAR. changing the game, and for the worse.

[paul-collins]

Back to the game on the field:


2. Some of these players are getting a bad wrap. Everyone hates on Marky, but he had a great game.

Morrow looked better than he does usually. Deleon looked better. Ciman looked better.

QW is an excellent MLS keeper on basically no salary.

I've clipped the parts I wanted to emphasize. In particular, it seems to me that Morrow benefits from having Shaffelburg in front of him.

[stegosaurus]

No, they are structural. Trying to make a subjective game absolute. That’s why they are now calling all hand balls instead of dintentional, which is the rule - to make it easier for VAR. changing the game, and for the worse.

There are plenty of places that don’t even have goal line tech, and are probably decades away from VAR... changing the rules to benefit VAR exclusively are pointless unless the goal is to eliminate referees overall, which lessens drama but at least makes matches fair and impartial (or absolute, if you like).

The handball thing is silly, but it’s just the reverse of not calling foul throws, holding, or the numerous fouls you’d see on every corner or free kick.

It’s also equally silly because watching a VAR review of a handball will tell you whether or not it’s intentional, just as the ref can tell in real time had he seen it. Again, it’s an implementation issue. If all handballs are handballs, fine. If only intentional ones are then you can tell via VAR based on the player’s movement.

If you implement VAR poorly it’s going to suck. The refs in this league have it from on high that you don’t even raise a flag when someone is in on goal because VAR will check... that’s not the proper implementation either.

[Oldtimer]

I would have said before the last two matches that with the lineup we had available we had no business getting any points against Atlanta and DC. So that gives me perspective.

[reggie]

i want var out..i can deal with the consequences of a human mistake.i cant stand the hand on the ear after every goal or every shout for a hand ball.the hand ball rule has become a joke.

[stevep]

Uhh... this is legitimately nonsense.

i figured out how they do it

[stegosaurus]

i figured out how they do it

Who, the Illuminati?

Shrek: “Want home draw uhginst Toromto.”
Garber: “Should we rig the game?”
Illuminati: “We developed a system called VAR, used specifically to acquire draws against a pitifully awful TFC team that you previously drew against by not even touching the ball!”
Garber: “Muah ah ah!”

[Oldtimer]

Who, the Illuminati?

Shrek: “Want home draw uhginst Toromto.”
Garber: “Should we rig the game?”
Illuminati: “We developed a system called VAR, used specifically to acquire draws against a pitifully awful TFC team that you previously drew against by not even touching the ball!”
Garber: “Muah ah ah!”

Refute the charge if you think it's untrue, don't mock someone who raises a question.

FWIW, it's pretty easy to manipulate what gets reviewed and it's even less transparent than the usual refereeing, and if you'd read "the Fix" you'd realize it's not outlandish that MLS could have some manipulation of results. It's happened in some pretty major leagues before and it's not out of the question that it could happen here.

I'm not sure that's what is happening though because it's too unclear a pattern, plus we have an obvious explanation in the quality of MLS referees. MLS refereeing is pretty poor compared to some other leagues, even if refs get flack everywhere, MLS refs have made some pretty poor decisions.

[MightyDM]

Great point and the boys have made TFC fun again after about twelve months of dire play. Hopefully as players come back they slot into this spirit. Related to that, sad Canada result and interesting the Mark Anthony Kaye substitution. He was off the pace like Ayo and Osorio had been playing well. I hope he comes back and slots in using the wingers to move the ball.

[Graeme]

Didn't it come out that there was a fix in some TFC champions league games about 9 (ish) years ago?

[Oldtimer]

Didn't it come out that there was a fix in some TFC champions league games about 9 (ish) years ago?

There was a fix in a CCL game. It didn't involve TFC but two minor teams.

[Richard]

I think this proves the opposite. Instead of matching fixing in MLS the referees are just plain incompetent.

[stegosaurus]

Refute the charge if you think it's untrue, don't mock someone who raises a question.

FWIW, it's pretty easy to manipulate what gets reviewed and it's even less transparent than the usual refereeing, and if you'd read "the Fix" you'd realize it's not outlandish that MLS could have some manipulation of results. It's happened in some pretty major leagues before and it's not out of the question that it could happen here.

I'm not sure that's what is happening though because it's too unclear a pattern, plus we have an obvious explanation in the quality of MLS referees. MLS refereeing is pretty poor compared to some other leagues, even if refs get flack everywhere, MLS refs have made some pretty poor decisions.

It wasn’t a question, though. It was a statement.

It was a clear penalty despite all the other events that occurred.

I’m aware of how match fixing works and the cases involving football (and other sports). If you look at the books (especially in Asia) you can see there’d be no point in fixing the match, especially when that fix would have to involve an entire team of officials and members of both teams.

Furthermore, the comment about transparency is false. MLS/PRO have previously spoke to and were critical of poor uses of VAR. If the fix was done through VAR it would have been even more idiotic than just buying players or refs, because now you need to buy MLS and PRO in general so they don’t talk about incorrect VAR calls (like the Bwana handball).

Manipulating VAR to fix games in MLS for a 90+’ draw with no disproportionate betting on the supposed “fix” is the footballing equivalent of flat earth conspiracies.

[stevep]

It wasn’t a question, though. It was a statement.

It was a clear penalty despite all the other events that occurred.

I’m aware of how match fixing works and the cases involving football (and other sports). If you look at the books (especially in Asia) you can see there’d be no point in fixing the match, especially when that fix would have to involve an entire team of officials and members of both teams.

Furthermore, the comment about transparency is false. MLS/PRO have previously spoke to and were critical of poor uses of VAR. If the fix was done through VAR it would have been even more idiotic than just buying players or refs, because now you need to buy MLS and PRO in general so they don’t talk about incorrect VAR calls (like the Bwana handball).

Manipulating VAR to fix games in MLS for a 90+’ draw with no disproportionate betting on the supposed “fix” is the footballing equivalent of flat earth conspiracies.

You state you know how match fixing works. That's an impressive statement.
How does it work? Give me an example of a technique you could use to fix a match?

First Illuminati now flat Earth conspiracies.
Anyone questioning the legitimacy to MLS just be one total whackjob.

[stegosaurus]

You state you know how match fixing works. That's an impressive statement.
How does it work? Give me an example of a technique you could use to fix a match?

First Illuminati now flat Earth conspiracies.
Anyone questioning the legitimacy to MLS just be one total whackjob.

I’m not going to feed you, but it involves giving people money, and criminal syndicates are usually involved. Given the nation housing TFC, we even have a fine example of football match fixing in our own country.

Then there’s the logic test: MLS actively seeks to fight against match fixing, employing people and services costing boatloads of money to ensure it, and there’s virtually no gain for MLS to fix matches.

If you were attempting to fix a match, would you choose a league where match fixing would be both incredibly difficult and expensive, one that deals in USD thereby exposing you to the wrath of the American government?

People will fix anything — there’s a reason Starcraft got absolutely fucked in Korea when it was the biggest sport after figure skating. That said, the payoff in fixing MLS games in the manner that you suggest simply isn’t worth it economically and therefore makes no sense.

[Oldtimer]

It wasn’t a question, though. It was a statement.

It was a clear penalty despite all the other events that occurred.



You seem to have missed the fact that there was a reviewable clear penalty on the other end that was not called.

It could be incompetence (likely it is).

But it could also be a fix, in fact that is how matches usually have been fixed. It's not the bogus call that fixes the match, it's the "missed" call that fixes things because it's plausibly deniable.

So the call on TFC was the correct call in that our defender did a red card offense.

Missed was the clear foul on our player leading up to that event. Also missed was the penalty when their player charged through ours, in their box, without getting any of the ball. It was called in the broadcast it was so obvious.

If you get enough of that one-sided mistakes in a match, people can legitimately wonder if they are deliberate "mistakes" instead of terrible refereeing. I still think it's the refereeing quality but I don't blame anyone who thinks that its otherwise.

[stegosaurus]

You seem to have missed the fact that there was a reviewable clear penalty on the other end that was not called.

It could be incompetence (likely it is).

But it could also be a fix, in fact that is how matches usually have been fixed. It's not the bogus call that fixes the match, it's the "missed" call that fixes things because it's plausibly deniable.

So the call on TFC was the correct call in that our defender did a red card offense.

Missed was the clear foul on our player leading up to that event. Also missed was the penalty when their player charged through ours, in their box, without getting any of the ball. It was called in the broadcast it was so obvious.

If you get enough of that one-sided mistakes in a match, people can legitimately wonder if they are deliberate "mistakes" instead of terrible refereeing. I still think it's the refereeing quality but I don't blame anyone who thinks that its otherwise.

Yes, the earth is flat, the moon landings were shot on a soundstage, chemtrails are real, and the flu shot is actually government mind control nanobots.

No one wonders if matches are fixed based on poor refereeing by a squad of referees who have, time and again, over the course of many years and matches, demonstrated their incompetence.

I’m not missing anything. It was a penalty. Not calling the other one isn’t a fix, it’s just poor officiating. To even consider it a fix you’d have to make enormous leaps in logic and disregard the reality of how match fixing works.

Calling it a fix means that at least one of our players was involved, which is insulting and (in this case) idiotic. If it were fixed, there would be real results and it would affect people’s careers and livelihoods — that’s not something you proclaim randomly with no evidence or knowledge.

My pet conspiracy theory is that we are being forced to bring back USMNT members on incredibly inflated salaries. Is it true? Maybe not. Is there evidence? Sure. Is it accusing someone of a crime that would ruin their career? Nope.

[carbontax]

Does anybody have a video clip of the non-call on Ayo in the 80th? Unsurprisingly it didn't make the game highlight package.

[GerMc]

Does anybody have a video clip of the non-call on Ayo in the 80th? Unsurprisingly it didn't make the game highlight package.

i think this is it here on Waking The Red.

https://www.wakingthered.com/2019/6/30/20598580/jozy-altidore-calls-mls-referees-some-of-the-worst-in-the-world-2019-var

Don't see how that is not a penalty.

[paul-collins]

I’m not going to feed you, but it involves giving people money, and criminal syndicates are usually involved. Given the nation housing TFC, we even have a fine example of football match fixing in our own country.

Then there’s the logic test: MLS actively seeks to fight against match fixing, employing people and services costing boatloads of money to ensure it, and there’s virtually no gain for MLS to fix matches.

If you were attempting to fix a match, would you choose a league where match fixing would be both incredibly difficult and expensive, one that deals in USD thereby exposing you to the wrath of the American government?

People will fix anything — there’s a reason Starcraft got absolutely fucked in Korea when it was the biggest sport after figure skating. That said, the payoff in fixing MLS games in the manner that you suggest simply isn’t worth it economically and therefore makes no sense.


You seem to have missed the fact that there was a reviewable clear penalty on the other end that was not called.

It could be incompetence (likely it is).

But it could also be a fix, in fact that is how matches usually have been fixed. It's not the bogus call that fixes the match, it's the "missed" call that fixes things because it's plausibly deniable.

So the call on TFC was the correct call in that our defender did a red card offense.

Missed was the clear foul on our player leading up to that event. Also missed was the penalty when their player charged through ours, in their box, without getting any of the ball. It was called in the broadcast it was so obvious.

If you get enough of that one-sided mistakes in a match, people can legitimately wonder if they are deliberate "mistakes" instead of terrible refereeing. I still think it's the refereeing quality but I don't blame anyone who thinks that its otherwise.


Yes, the earth is flat, the moon landings were shot on a soundstage, chemtrails are real, and the flu shot is actually government mind control nanobots.

No one wonders if matches are fixed based on poor refereeing by a squad of referees who have, time and again, over the course of many years and matches, demonstrated their incompetence.

I’m not missing anything. It was a penalty. Not calling the other one isn’t a fix, it’s just poor officiating. To even consider it a fix you’d have to make enormous leaps in logic and disregard the reality of how match fixing works.

Calling it a fix means that at least one of our players was involved, which is insulting and (in this case) idiotic. If it were fixed, there would be real results and it would affect people’s careers and livelihoods — that’s not something you proclaim randomly with no evidence or knowledge.

My pet conspiracy theory is that we are being forced to bring back USMNT members on incredibly inflated salaries. Is it true? Maybe not. Is there evidence? Sure. Is it accusing someone of a crime that would ruin their career? Nope.
Oldtimer is right. Read Declan Hill's book. TFC and Washington don't have to be in on it, and in fact "incompetence" is the best cover for a fix there is.

I'm not buying into the fix necessarily, but you argue that TFC losing isn't worth it in a previous post yet we know the CSL was worth it. Can't have it both ways either they're big enough to warrant a fix, or they're not.

I personally lean toward GROSS incompetence, but I won't breezily dismiss the alternative.

[OgtheDim]

Does anybody have a video clip of the non-call on Ayo in the 80th? Unsurprisingly it didn't make the game highlight package.


It made Jozy's twitter.

https://twitter.com/JozyAltidore/status/1145343803865391104

[stegosaurus]

Oldtimer is right. Read Declan Hill's book. TFC and Washington don't have to be in on it, and in fact "incompetence" is the best cover for a fix there is.

I'm not buying into the fix necessarily, but you argue that TFC losing isn't worth it in a previous post yet we know the CSL was worth it. Can't have it both ways either they're big enough to warrant a fix, or they're not.

I personally lean toward GROSS incompetence, but I won't breezily dismiss the alternative.

I have read it.

It would cost far more to bribe the center ref, the VAR ref, the rest of the officials, and everyone who looks into these sorts of things at MLS, PRO, and the people they hired to make sure it isn’t happening here, plus bribing our players to commit penalty-worthy fouls in the dying minutes of the game and missing the other chances — than it would to pay off everyone involved in the CSL (which I mentioned above).

It doesn’t make sense. Like I said, you can fix anything, but this game couldn’t have possibly been fixed if you watched it. You’d have to ignore basic tenets of reality to jump to that conclusion.

If this ever comes back as being a fixed match, I’ll become an Impact supporter.

[MightyDM]

i think this is it here on Waking The Red.

https://www.wakingthered.com/2019/6/30/20598580/jozy-altidore-calls-mls-referees-some-of-the-worst-in-the-world-2019-var

Don't see how that is not a penalty.

That would have been a foul in rugby, let alone soccer. it’s not possible for the referee or the VAR to have missed it. Not subtle like POZ hand ball or Deleon possible tiny touch. Blatant and right in front of the referee. Inexplicable.

Also, if anyone thinks soccer can’t be touched by corruption: FIFA. In this case, all you have to have is a corrupted VAR referee to change odds for betting and make it worthwhile.

I do not believe it to be the case but this one is astonishing. Up there with the Gilberto goal that the league apologized for annulling. The Laryea non call pretty poor too.

[stegosaurus]

That would have been a foul in rugby, let alone soccer. it’s not possible for the referee or the VAR to have missed it. Not subtle like POZ hand ball or Deleon possible tiny touch. Blatant and right in front of the referee. Inexplicable.

Also, if anyone thinks soccer can’t be touched by corruption: FIFA. In this case, all you have to have is a corrupted VAR referee to change odds for betting and make it worthwhile.

I do not believe it to be the case but this one is astonishing. Up there with the Gilberto goal that the league apologized for annulling. The Laryea non call pretty poor too.

No one is saying that soccer hasn’t been touched by corruption. Just that this isn’t a fix and it’s really silly to start claiming everything is fixed because you didn’t get the result you wanted.

Even in your scenario you can’t simply buy the VAR ref to achieve the fix. In this scenario, you’d absolutely have to buy whoever committed the foul resulting in the final pen or have the prescience that it would happen; you’d also have to buy the centre ref, and probably more just to have it not come out.

It’s just a matter of Occam’s and Hanlon’s Razor.

Still waiting to see all the outlandish betting patterns on this game triggering an investigation into the fixing of this match. 🙄

[MightyDM]

No one is saying that soccer hasn’t been touched by corruption. Just that this isn’t a fix and it’s really silly to start claiming everything is fixed because you didn’t get the result you wanted.

Even in your scenario you can’t simply buy the VAR ref to achieve the fix. In this scenario, you’d absolutely have to buy whoever committed the foul resulting in the final pen or have the prescience that it would happen; you’d also have to buy the centre ref, and probably more just to have it not come out.

It’s just a matter of Occam’s and Hanlon’s Razor.

Still waiting to see all the outlandish betting patterns on this game triggering an investigation into the fixing of this match. 🙄

I don’t think it is fixed and I agree that it is outlandish to suggest it is. But to influence success in betting, you don’t need precision. If a bettor knows that a VAR official is going to make a key call in a game one way, for multiple games, his or her odds change enough that it might well be worth the cost. For that, all you need is to bribe one person.

So while I think it’s outlandish to suggest this game was fixed, it can’t be cavalierly dismisses. Not in the world of FIFA.

[stegosaurus]

I don’t think it is fixed and I agree that it is outlandish to suggest it is. But to influence success in betting, you don’t need precision. If a bettor knows that a VAR official is going to make a key call in a game one way, for multiple games, his or her odds change enough that it might well be worth the cost. For that, all you need is to bribe one person.

So while I think it’s outlandish to suggest this game was fixed, it can’t be cavalierly dismisses. Not in the world of FIFA.

In a world where anything can happen, sure. In reality, like you said, it’s outlandish.

Could the match have been fixed? Sure, anything can. Was it? No. Could a meteor fall from the sky today and ruin my plans of talking about TFC match fixing on this forum? Yes. Will it? I can pretty confidently say nope.

[stevep]

In a world where anything can happen, sure. In reality, like you said, it’s outlandish.

Could the match have been fixed? Sure, anything can. Was it? No. Could a meteor fall from the sky today and ruin my plans of talking about TFC match fixing on this forum? Yes. Will it? I can pretty confidently say nope.


just think about how they could do it.

clue: the referee is wearing a headset

ps: were not in Kansas anymore

[stegosaurus]

just think about how they could do it.

clue: the referee is wearing a headset

ps: were not in Kansas anymore

You’ve solved the mystery! I thought it was the mind control microchips in the flu vaccine.

[Oldtimer]

You’ve solved the mystery! I thought it was the mind control microchips in the flu vaccine.

Your line of arguing by comparing match fixing to anti vaxxers or chemtrail believers is offensive and out of line. Nobody here is arguing for those things.

While most of us, myself included, believe its gross incompetence, the point that it would be possible to fix an MLS match by just bribing one official (either the VAR official or the ref) is completely reasonable. It's happened in Serie A, a much bigger and richer league than MLS. It's happened in England, Spain, and right here in Canada (the CSL). BTW, Declan Hill is on the record that potential match fixing is a genuine concern in MLS. You claim you've read him, but you must have missed or forgotten that he's said that (I guess you'd consider him a moon landing hoaxer or something like that).

You also are completely ignorant of how poorly MLS refs are paid. They only get a few hundred dollars per game, it's mainly done for the love of it (which boggles my mind, why would someone want the abuse that refs get). So there's motivation.

Of course a flat earth believer like yourself :rolleyes: would deny reality, no matter what evidence was provided.

[OgtheDim]

You also are completely ignorant of how poorly MLS refs are paid. They only get a few hundred dollars per game, it's mainly done for the love of it (which boggles my mind, why would someone want the abuse that refs get). So there's motivation.

....


A quick google search indicates a little more then that but not much - hard to find stuff on this though. I wonder about the FIFA class MLS refs like Elfath because they are away a lot.


This article gives numbers but no source http://tsmsportz.com/money/mls-referees-salaries/


Most articles reference stuff from 8 years ago - again no sources.

[stegosaurus]

Your line of arguing by comparing match fixing to anti vaxxers or chemtrail believers is offensive and out of line. Nobody here is arguing for those things.

While most of us, myself included, believe its gross incompetence, the point that it would be possible to fix an MLS match by just bribing one official (either the VAR official or the ref) is completely reasonable. It's happened in Serie A, a much bigger and richer league than MLS. It's happened in England, Spain, and right here in Canada (the CSL). BTW, Declan Hill is on the record that potential match fixing is a genuine concern in MLS. You claim you've read him, but you must have missed or forgotten that he's said that (I guess you'd consider him a moon landing hoaxer or something like that).

You also are completely ignorant of how poorly MLS refs are paid. They only get a few hundred dollars per game, it's mainly done for the love of it (which boggles my mind, why would someone want the abuse that refs get). So there's motivation.

Of course a flat earth believer like yourself :rolleyes: would deny reality, no matter what evidence was provided.

I know how well MLS referees are (or, more accurately, aren’t) paid, and I’m aware that literally anything can be fixed, including MLS.

You claiming that I’m not aware of these things, or that I haven’t read the Hill book (I have) are just baseless accusations (like ones of match fixing). You also claiming something I’ve said is offensive or out-of-line and repeating it with an eye-roll shows just about how specious the line of argument towards this being a fix is.

I also don’t have the burden of evidence in this, as I wasn’t the one claiming it was fixed in the first place, lol. That’s not how this works, unfortunately.

“Ref is poorly paid.” “Experts have said that fixing MLS is potentially possible.” “Ref has a headset.” “MLS refs are incompetent.” “It happened before in other leagues!”

None of these show the match was fixed, nor that it even approached looking like a fixed match, let alone being one. “It’s possible in the vaguest sense” isn’t proof or even justification for making up potentially libellous claims.

This match wasn’t fixed. Prove me wrong. I’ll pick up a new Impact kit at the next possible opportunity.

The government is injecting something nefarious into my body with the flu shot. The doctor/nurse/pharmacist isn’t paid very well for administering the shot. They suspiciously go out of the room to get and prep the vaccine without explaining it to me. Doctors have a history of malpractice, even in this country, even recently. The government has a history of spying on its citizens, even in this country, even recently.

That’s basically a QED by your logic.

[paul-collins]

Why should oldtimer have to prove for you something that he himself hasn't claimed?

Why are you so wound up about anyone suggesting that it's even in the realm of the possible?

[Oldtimer]

This match wasn’t fixed. Prove me wrong. I’ll pick up a new Impact kit at the next possible opportunity.

The government is injecting something nefarious into my body with the flu shot. The doctor/nurse/pharmacist isn’t paid very well for administering the shot. They suspiciously go out of the room to get and prep the vaccine without explaining it to me. Doctors have a history of malpractice, even in this country, even recently. The government has a history of spying on its citizens, even in this country, even recently.



Why do you have to resort to insults?

I'm not saying the match was fixed. I said it's incompetence.

I'm saying that you ridiculing people who disagree with you is out of line. Are you saying that Declan Hill is equivalent to an anti-vaxxer? Because that is what you are saying.

Your line of argumentation by ridicule is a reflection of your poor character rather than how reasonable other people are, and is not allowed on this board. I won't levy a ban or infraction because I am involved in the discussion but I am reporting your posts to the other moderators to handle.

[stegosaurus]

Why do you have to resort to insults?

I'm not saying the match was fixed. I said it's incompetence.

I'm saying that you ridiculing people who disagree with you is out of line. Are you saying that Declan Hill is equivalent to an anti-vaxxer? Because that is what you are saying.

Your line of argumentation by ridicule is a reflection of your poor character rather than how reasonable other people are, and is not allowed on this board. I won't levy a ban or infraction because I am involved in the discussion but I am reporting your posts to the other moderators to handle.

I’d report you for the exact same, but we both know it wouldn’t do anything.

I’m not sure I claimed Declan Hill was the equivalent of an anti-vax proponent, but I guess you can quote me if I did.

Again, I also never said that you said it was fixed. I simply said the reasoning you gave is just proof that either everything is fixed, nothing is, or that it’s simply not evidence at all.

I did, however, compare one ridiculous conspiracy to another. I’m not sure mind control microchips are much of an anti-vax talking point though.

[stegosaurus]

Why should oldtimer have to prove for you something that he himself hasn't claimed?

Why are you so wound up about anyone suggesting that it's even in the realm of the possible?

I wish I were wound up, rather than wondering why accusing random people of crimes because you drew a football match is considered not-ridiculous by people here.

Just because match fixing exists doesn’t mean this game was a fix or even that you’re justified in accusing someone over it.

[Oldtimer]

I’d report you for the exact same, but we both know it wouldn’t do anything.


Except you did.

[stegosaurus]

Except you did.

Figured out where the button is on mobile :)