Match Day 16 - TFC @ Dallas Saturday June 22 8pm - Waking up After the Last 2 Weeks

[OgtheDim]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCEjeTb1rrs


**********

Have at It People

[Section_105]

dude.....funny.

Can't wait to see how our B team does in the heat. Dallas has let a few teams out of their house with a point so hopefully we can do the same or better.

[OgtheDim]

Ok, weather in Frisco on Saturday 1 hour before kick off

33 feeling like 38


Don't expect much running from our slow guys.

I also expect some playing of the B team - Zavs, Bono maybe. A point here would be nice but the more important game is Wednesday at home vs Atlanta.

[TFC1986]

Let's go TFC!!!!

[OgtheDim]

Team is in Frisco

https://twitter.com/TorontoFC/status/1141860021774536707?s=19

Didn't recognize Laryea. Akinola sighting.

[Graeme]

Team is in Frisco

https://twitter.com/TorontoFC/status/1141860021774536707?s=19

Didn't recognize Laryea. Akinola sighting.

Also, looks like Endoh will see the bench, at least...

[MightyDM]

Also, looks like Endoh will see the bench, at least...

I’d like to see Endoh get a game. I think he adds something to the current team. As does Shaffleberg. Too many similar players at the moment in the midfield

[Grandia]

damn, mls is finnaly back

[OgtheDim]

Poz being rested in the heat.
Boyd starts.
Akinola sighting.
Endoh sighting.
Bono not in the lineup?

https://twitter.com/TorontoFC/status/1142568693039271938

[OgtheDim]

Journos following up

Bono out with training knock.

Auro & Mavinga still out with hamstring issues.

****

This has 3-1 loss all over it.


Going to settle in and watch how TFC 2020-2022 is coming along.


**********

The Dallas midfield is the U-20 USMNT midfield - they will be running for days. Gotta survive the first half (insert crazy stupid pointless goal against TFC to deflate us all whenever you want oh soccer gods - we know its coming)

[Hamilton_Red]

Poz being rested in the heat.
Boyd starts.
Akinola sighting.
Endoh sighting.
Bono not in the lineup?

https://twitter.com/TorontoFC/status/1142568693039271938


Poz rested...because we had a two week rest? because we are not trying to win? He's Spanish FFS....if he can't play in the heat...who can?

Like we can afford to throw points away. 5 players+ away on International duty...and MLS goes ahead. They are taking the piss out of the fans.

[OgtheDim]

Apparently Pozuelo just got back on Wednesday and is being rested for the games against Atlanta & DCU.

[James17930]

Oh great, a scheduled loss.

Yippee.

[portu]

Boyd starting? Shit lineup?

I hope we win but I won't waste my Saturday night watching this scheduled shitshow.

[Initial B]

According to MLS, Playing a 5-4-1. This has "park the bus and hope for a lucky counter" written all over it. :facepalm:

[Auzzy]

Holy crap what a lineup. Boyd up front alone, and two other strikers on the bench? Why not start with 2?

No defender on the bench? Why not bring Dunn along for emergencies?

Really sucks that Mavinga & others haven't recuperated over the break. Then again, Mavinga also got married a week ago, so let's cut him some slack at least. Let's see if Altidore also comes back with an injury.

I don't like this "TFC 2020-22" storyline. FO haven't said anything like that. We really shouldn't be making up the excuses for them in advance. (Plus then you would like to see Dunn & other young players given a chance. Is Terrence Boyd "TFC 2020-22"?)

Anyway, in the past, especially in 2016-2017, we sometimes saw understrength games like this go better than expected. Let's see what the mentality looks like tonight.

[OgtheDim]

I don't like this "TFC 2020-22" storyline. FO haven't said anything like that.

That's just me & my personal coping strategy.

[Brooker]

That's an odd lineup. F*ck me.

Might skip the fist half on this one. Not gonna be a pretty 45 mins if we survive it.

[Auzzy]

Man I suck at multi-tasking. Trying to get my money's worth from a one-month subscription of TSN Direct. Trying to watch US vs T&T at the same time. Probably isn't going to work.

[Auzzy]

I can confirm that TSN Direct lets you login from two different computers at the same time.

[stegosaurus]

Holy crap what a lineup. Boyd up front alone, and two other strikers on the bench? Why not start with 2?

No defender on the bench? Why not bring Dunn along for emergencies?

Really sucks that Mavinga & others haven't recuperated over the break. Then again, Mavinga also got married a week ago, so let's cut him some slack at least. Let's see if Altidore also comes back with an injury.

I don't like this "TFC 2020-22" storyline. FO haven't said anything like that. We really shouldn't be making up the excuses for them in advance. (Plus then you would like to see Dunn & other young players given a chance. Is Terrence Boyd "TFC 2020-22"?)

Anyway, in the past, especially in 2016-2017, we sometimes saw understrength games like this go better than expected. Let's see what the mentality looks like tonight.

2020-2022? TB’s skill is beyond the flow of time: intemporal, omnipresent.

While other players ebb and flow, Boyd remains infinite.

[daner90]

Some really ugly play so far, let's see how this plays out

[Hamilton_Red]

Why does the MLS break only cover 2 of the 3 group games? Why isn’t Gold Cup in December?

[Auzzy]

Given the typical weather in Dallas, why didn't they start this game at 8pm or 9pm local time? (It's 7:41 pm there now.)

[Auzzy]

At least TFC has Lady Luck in the lineup tonight. So far.

Shit spoke one minute too early.

I think Morrow kept the attacker onside, fuck.

[ag futbol]

Think Ciman kept him onside. Embarrassing that TSN can't show a proper replay.

[Brooker]

@Auzzy

I believe TV dictates that.

[daner90]

Alright Boyd, your time to shine here...lol

[stegosaurus]

Westberg is playing exceptionally well.

[Brooker]

My fuck almost made it to halftime.

[ag futbol]

Marky Delgado does not look like a starting MLS player. Hasn't for quite some time.

[Mikmacdo]

This team is awful. Its ok to be bad but dont be old and suck.

[Hamilton_Red]

That was a mile offside. Terrible call. We are looking like CPL level and I’m talking York ..not Calgary.

[Brooker]

Oh so close to 45. Bah.

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/LegitimateAdmirableIaerismetalmark-small.gif

[Oldtimer]

You could see that Dallas goal coming a mile away. Does this under strength TFC side manage to pull off a draw? Not likely.

[OgtheDim]

Boyd & DeLoen the only guys putting themselves about.

Chapman looks afraid that he might get tired. Delgado is not stopping line breaking passes.

Westberg saving the midfield because most of that is coming from guys not following runners back.

[OgtheDim]

That was a mile offside. Terrible call. We are looking like CPL level and I’m talking York ..not Calgary.

Unfortunately not offside - Morrow stopping kept him on.

Fraser not doing what ever is in his power to NOT let that guy get into the box in front of him is what caused the goal.

https://twitter.com/RudiSchuller/status/1142598592651255809

[stegosaurus]

Boyd & DeLoen the only guys putting themselves about.

Chapman looks afraid that he might get tired. Delgado is not stopping line breaking passes.

Westberg saving the midfield because most of that is coming from guys not following runners back.

Chapman is so weak. He’s constantly getting bullied off the ball.

[Auzzy]

That was a mile offside. Terrible call. We are looking like CPL level and I’m talking York ..not Calgary.

Nope, was not offside. I just watched the first wide-angle replay. Morrow was at the end line, and only walked back slowly while watching the ball. He kept Badji onside.

[stegosaurus]

Let’s see if Pozo can put the rest of them on his back.

[Auzzy]

Holy F why does Vanney take Ciman off, and leave Moor & Zavaleta?

[daner90]

Going to need Poz to be a true magician this half

[OgtheDim]

Holy F why does Vanney take Ciman off, and leave Moor & Zavaleta?

Well Moor isn't coming off & its usually been Zavs coming off when they do this but I suspect its because Ciman has been running around way too much.

[stegosaurus]

Boyd is so strong and tall. Imagine if he used that to his advantage in that particular situation.

[Hamilton_Red]

Boyd on the second goal...seriously ? Did he win a Chic-fil-A prize or sonething? He’s not a professional footballer.

[Auzzy]

Boyd played great defensively on two corners in the first half. And then totally effed up on that one.

[Auzzy]

Well Moor isn't coming off & its usually been Zavs coming off when they do this but I suspect its because Ciman has been running around way too much.

What were you saying about Ciman running around too much? Moor was halfway in the opposing half before that goal.

[Mikmacdo]

Moor needs to retire. Hes finished.

[firm]

What a boring f. Game

[stegosaurus]

Dominique “Literally Messi” Badji.

[gracos]

im sorry but TFC hasnt improved at all this year and how long does it take to correct the ship, the front office only cares about profit and they dont care about results

[OgtheDim]

What were you saying about Ciman running around too much? Moor was halfway in the opposing half before that goal.

Did you watch the first half? What Moor just did Ciman did 4 times in the first half.

[CoachGT]

Men against boys.

And Dallas has 4 teenagers on the pitch.

[tfcfans]

I literally am assuming 4 losses in these 4 games during the Gold Cup, and less than 4 goals scored combined for those four games. The only benefit of all of this is that at least it’s 3 road losses and one home loss being wasted for these four games. Until July 13th there is no point watching this group play as clearly we can’t win or score consistently as presently constructed until after the Gold Cup.

The season starts on July 13th and they will either go on a run to the playoffs (like Seattle usually does), with a proper roster, including any additions from the summer transfer window which must include another scoring option or this team is finishing in 7th-9th. If they add a viable second scorer and Jozy plays 12 of the last 15 games then maybe a better finish can be achieved. This is pretty straightforward stuff with this team - a healthy three DPs and an added scorer means we have a decent team, without it and we are bottom third in the league.

See you all on July 13th - until then there is nothing to see with this group....

[daner90]

Floodgates=open

[stegosaurus]

This game could have been like 10-0 had it not been for Westberg and some bad Dallas luck.

It’s one thing to be missing a lot of players and lose, but it’s another to have prepared this so poorly that it’s an absolute blowout by the 50th minute.

[Auzzy]

Did you watch the first half? What Moor just did Ciman did 4 times in the first half.

That's more acceptable when you have 3 in the back. Plus Ciman was doing that in offence (sometimes effectively). Moor was that far forward w/o possession of the ball.

[jazzy]

Anybody still think we’re not takin for granted , to actually expect a crowd to pay continually for this crap takes a lot of gall . But this was easy to see a year and a half ago , ...to some . All three top mgmt has to go Manning , Curtis and Vanney , Not one of them considers this a beautiful game . Vanney could kill the heart of a vampire . It has to be said , but some of course will accept this utter garbage for years . And to think the company that owns the raptors , owns this team . No respect from any teams at all .

[gracos]

what was this offseason, Giovinco and Vazquez leave opening up cap space, and our management decide to spend no money on worthy players; Pozuelo aside if he is given a proper team might be worth some of the value but everyone else needs to be revaluated and traded if they dont make an improvement for our team, we have incomptency in Ali Curtis and Greg Vanney has shown hes unable to shuffle his starting 11 to produce results, if we make the playoffs we wont be there for too long and might as well look forward to 2020

[stevep]

I literally am assuming 4 losses in these 4 games and less than 4 goals scored combined for those four games. The only benefit of all of this is that at least it’s 3 road losses and one home loss being wasted for these four games. Until July 13th there is no point watching this group play as clearly we can’t win or score consistently as presently constructed until after the Gold Cup. The season starts on July 13th and they will either go on a run to the playoffs (like Seattle usually does), with a proper roster, including any additions from the summer transfer window which must include another scoring option or this team is finishing in 7th-9th. If they add a viable second scorer and Jozy plays 12 of the last 15 games then maybe a better finish can be achieved. This is pretty straightforward stuff with this team - a healthy three DPs and an added scorer means we have a decent team, without it and we are bottom third in the league.

See you all on July 13th - until then there is nothing to see with this group....

Yes.

[Hamilton_Red]

This is embarrassing just wrong on so many levels. We virtually defaulted.

Gold Cup should be played in December.
A team with 5 players away shouldn’t be required to play.
35 degree day games - should be played at night.

TFC virtually defaulting the game.

The competition is rendered meaningless as we play 4 crucial games in a week - when missing International players.

[OgtheDim]

Fraser is a pylon tonight. Has no desire to get a tackle in.

[stegosaurus]

“At least it was a shot” while we’re down 3-0 with crucial players injured or out of the lineup basically sums up the season at this point.

[Hamilton_Red]

What’s the odds on Jozy and/or Bradley or Oso coming back injured from the Gold Cup?

[Brooker]

Anybody still think we’re not takin for granted , to actually expect a crowd to pay continually for this crap takes a lot of gall . But this was easy to see a year and a half ago , ...to some . All three top mgmt has to go Manning , Curtis and Vanney , Not one of them considers this a beautiful game . Vanney could kill the heart of a vampire . It has to be said , but some of course will accept this utter garbage for years . And to think the company that owns the raptors , owns this team . No respect from any teams at all .

Maybe it will improve the atmosphere. No more Johnny come latelys. The 600 minute goal drought etc.

We were all there and still were jumping.

[tfcfans]

I can’t believe someone actually bought my seats for Wednesday night - have fun!:facepalm:

[tfcfans]

What’s the odds on Jozy and/or Bradley or Oso coming back injured from the Gold Cup?

Jozy is a lock to be injured within those first three games back between July 13-20.:facepalm:

[Auzzy]

What’s the odds on Jozy and/or Bradley or Oso coming back injured from the Gold Cup?

Jozy sighting in Cleveland. That's good news, I would say. Let's hope he doesn't get injured going forward.

[stevep]

I thought the exact same thing when someone bought mine for Wednesday.

[gracos]

Maybe it will improve the atmosphere. No more Johnny come latelys. The 600 minute goal drought etc.

We were all there and still were jumping.

If we are cheering on a losing team, and management is still profiting financially, TFC dont care about the onfield product and we support a complacent team

[OgtheDim]

There's still 15 minutes?

[gracos]

I would love to see the same thing that Seattle does every year, a vote of confidence, right now i would have to guess our whole club would get a fail

[Auzzy]

There's still 15 minutes?

Let's offer Dallas 4-0 and call it a day.

[stegosaurus]

There's still 15 minutes?

Plus Dallas’ kit looks like the red one with onyx sleeves from behind, so you can just pretend we’re winning anyway.

[Hamilton_Red]

Why the heck is Akikola and Hamilton not playing? We are playing down a man with Boyd.

[OgtheDim]

This is probably the best match I've ever seen a TFC keeper play.

WAIT....did a TFC player actually RUN at a defence there? I might swoon

[ag futbol]

How does Shaffelburg make a run like that have no player within 25 yards looking to get on the end of a ball?

I know it’s curtains at this point anyway but that’s a joke from Boyd and a few others. Have some desire to score FFS.

[stevep]

Jozy is a joke. Including games up to July 13th he will have started 6 games.
6 games out of 19

Also, don't you people get it!!
this league is a fucking joke.
In what other league in the world do you lose your top 3 players to 6 league games to a tournament?
6 games is 20% of the entire league schedule.

[ag futbol]

This is probably the best match I've ever seen a TFC keeper play.

WAIT....did a TFC player actually RUN at a defence there? I might swoon
That’ll be coached out soon enough, don’t worry. Look at Laryea... he’s adjusting to first team play and taking less and less initiative all the time

[stegosaurus]

How does Shaffelburg make a run like that have no player within 25 yards looking to get on the end of a ball?

I know it’s curtains at this point anyway but that’s a joke from Boyd and a few others. Have some desire to score FFS.

They let Scaffolding down there.

[MightyDM]

I totally don’t understand it. We were the best team in mLS history through last April. And now are poor. Poor tactically, poor Roster construction. Just poor. The first two goals, for example, were caused by laziness. Chapman is not a wide player. He is an MLS player, but not a wide player, palates three agains youth and speed. Laryea, who has had good games, has been constantly out of position and beaten by the winger. Once, ok. But then you adjust. And Morrow and Ciman on first goal, Boyd on second.

[MightyDM]

And in a team desperate for speed, why hasn’t Schaffleberg been used now and then? Granted he’s young, but he sure exposes weaknesses in a defense. And someone needs to.

[stegosaurus]

Rauter and Caldwell spinning a poorly-told tale of Pepi was actually better than TFC’s performance this game, and probably the highlight of the night (MOTM Westberg though).

[Auzzy]

My wife has been watching lots of basketball lately. Joined me a little while ago to watch the rest of the TFC game. She says, footy needs a shot clock. :D

EDIT And now she's nodded off next to me. Understandable with this game. :D

[ag futbol]

Who does Boyd have pictures of to justify his continued existence in the side?

The management is burning their credibility by continuing to put him out there. We gave Aketxe less of a chance to adjust and we had actual money riding on him.

[Auzzy]

And that's the kind of day it's been.

[gracos]

Goes to show management has no earthly clue on how to run a successful club, and we have given enough time to get this team straightened out; our management; Manning, Curtis and Vanney all need to be shown the door, but they dont answer to anyone and can get away with anything, our club needs to find its identity

[MightyDM]

Vanney is starting to be under pressure. Poor performance by key players and poor use of them. Just poor.

[ag futbol]

And in a team desperate for speed, why hasn’t Schaffleberg been used now and then? Granted he’s young, but he sure exposes weaknesses in a defense. And someone needs to.
We don’t take opportunities to do stuff like this. Subs are about tactics or keeping established first team players fresh. They even eat away at TFC II on occasion in the name of the first team players getting back up to speed.

God forbid we see someone through to the first team and actually give them a run of games to improve. Alphonso Davies looked very young coming on the field his first MLS season but they did it cause they knew he’d get better. Imagine if we had a prospect half that good and had 1/4 of the foresight.

[Auzzy]

If we are cheering on a losing team, and management is still profiting financially, TFC dont care about the onfield product and we support a complacent team

TFC isn't make much money, if at all. They would like to win; they don't know how.

[Auzzy]

LOL, even after that game, TFC is still in a playoff spot. :facepalm:

[Omar]

What's going on at TFC? Vanney talked so much about wing play over the last year and a half, but we rarely have any wing play. We have DeLeon in the team, but Vanney chooses to play him more centrally. His selections and formations make little sense. Our team plays with fear, relying on star players to bail us out constantly. Any new player who's come in started off well but got worse as time passed. There's no leader in the team, and the club is distancing itself from fans and SSHs in particular.

We're winless in 8 now. We as fans need to ask questions about TFC. We need to speak up on Wednesday and show them that we're not happy with this. I'd be okay if we're struggling yet playing to win and trying our best (see Vancouver, SKC, and Portland). This, however, is as bad as, if not worse, than New England led by Friedel. This truly is unacceptable.

[Oldtimer]

This has 3-1 loss all over it.




You were too optimistic!

I'm concerned that this team is so used to losing that even if they bring in a few more players they're just going to continue. That's especially so because thanks to the USMNT we have an injured Jozy again.

[stegosaurus]

I should have just watched Evangelion for the 10th time, only this time on Netflix.

Really not much good to say except that Westberg really stood on his head and made sure to hold Dallas to a respectable, single-digit scoreline.

[OgtheDim]

Positives from tonight

Best TFC keeper game ever (name me one better please - I'd be interested)
Shafflememes can run wide
Pozuelo just needs 2 chances per game (& he gets them) to put the ball on a platter for the rest of the team
Morrow & DeLeon keep plugging away
Both Bradley & Alitdore got out of their game unscathed & played well for their time on


Negatives

Moor & Ciman haring up top with no cover from their mids
Fraser & Chapman lollygagging back & giving up on plays
Laryea not moving the ball forward like he did just a couple of months ago (but he's not the answer at RB)
Boyd puts himself about but its aimless & goes nowhere - he is not good enough
We have no systemic mindset to defend
We have no systemic mindset to attack
Delgado has somehow manged to regress from last year

[gracos]

TFC isn't make much money, if at all. They would like to win; they don't know how.

Well firstly get rid of the management or we need to wake them up out of their complacency, MLSE is a fairly profitable company especially with the biggest Telecomm companies being a part of them, i dont buy TFC doesnt make much money compared to other teams in the league we have a lot of value

[OgtheDim]

.. That's especially so because thanks to the USMNT we have an injured Jozy again.

Jozy played tonight for 11 minutes in a rout - he is expected to start the next game by journos but Berhalter loves Zardes so who knows.

[69Chevy396]

And that's the kind of day it's been.

2015-2017 was an anomaly for TFC. We are officially back to 2007-2014. Thanks, MLSE.

[Oldtimer]

Vanney is starting to be under pressure. Poor performance by key players and poor use of them. Just poor.

Pressure by whom? This board and Twitter? Everyone in management knows he's trying to play poker with a pair of deuces in his hand and no chance of winning. What other players would any other coach play? What other formation? Let's face it, once you subtract Jozy, Bradley and Osorio this team is only marginally better than Preki's eastern European cast offs.

[Auzzy]

Positives from tonight

Best TFC keeper game ever (name me one better please - I'd be interested)
Shafflememes can run wide
Pozuelo just needs 2 chances per game (& he gets them) to put the ball on a platter for the rest of the team
Morrow & DeLeon keep plugging away
Both Bradley & Alitdore got out of their game unscathed & played well for their time on


Negatives

Moor & Ciman haring up top with no cover from their mids
Fraser & Chapman lollygagging back & giving up on plays
Laryea not moving the ball forward like he did just a couple of months ago (but he's not the answer at RB)
Boyd puts himself about but its aimless & goes nowhere - he is not good enough
We have no systemic mindset to defend
We have no systemic mindset to attack
Delgado has somehow manged to regress from last year

Agree with everything except Morrow. Fell asleep on the first goal & kept the goal scorer onside. Still a shadow of his former self on passes and crosses. He used to actually score for us!

[Auzzy]

Pressure by whom? This board and Twitter? Everyone in management knows he's trying to play poker with a pair of deuces in his hand and no chance of winning. What other players would any other coach play? What other formation? Let's face it, once you subtract Jozy, Bradley and Osorio this team is only marginally better than Preki's eastern European cast offs.

I think it's management AND lack of players AND Vanney. I agree he's been dealt an awful hand, but no need for the team to play THAT badly. He's letting his defenders play undisciplined. He's letting his midfielders get away with not defending enough. (Why didn't they at least try to bunker in that game?) He's putting Terrence Boyd alone up front for 82 minutes, with two other strikers on the bench (which would be slightly more OK if they had at least been parking the bus in back during that time).

[Auzzy]

After that game, to cheer up with some quality footy, watch the Norway - Australia WWC replay on TSN 2 right now.

[Omar]

Pressure by whom? This board and Twitter? Everyone in management knows he's trying to play poker with a pair of deuces in his hand and no chance of winning. What other players would any other coach play? What other formation? Let's face it, once you subtract Jozy, Bradley and Osorio this team is only marginally better than Preki's eastern European cast offs.
Vanney's team setup, tactics, and decisions are handicapping these players. After spending several years with them, he should know about their strengths and weaknesses, yet it seems like he and the coaching staff have suddenly stopped playing the players to their strengths. If Brian Schmetzer can get a relatively poor 2016 Sounders team to win the MLS Cup, Vanney has no excuses.

[Oldtimer]

He's letting his defenders play undisciplined.

So let's say he benches a couple of them for not following his direction? That is how a coach disciplines players. Who does he replace them with? There's literally no competition for places with two defenders out.

[Brooker]

If we are cheering on a losing team, and management is still profiting financially, TFC dont care about the onfield product and we support a complacent team

We cheered on the club to get their shit in order... and they did. Our track history refutes any such complacency.

Chin up. It's hardly the My Lai Massacre.

Not every season is going to be a walk in the park.

[Auzzy]

So let's say he benches a couple of them for not following his direction? That is how a coach disciplines players. Who does he replace them with? There's literally no competition for places with two defenders out.

I have no idea what Vanney is actually telling his defenders to do. He often continues to field players after they've messed up repeatedly, even when other options are available. I.e. he doesn't exert discipline even when he has that option. In any case, motivation would be better than discipline. And today, at least he could have brought Dunn along to have a defensive option on the bench.

[jloome]

I think it's management AND lack of players AND Vanney. I agree he's been dealt an awful hand, but no need for the team to play THAT badly. He's letting his defenders play undisciplined. He's letting his midfielders get away with not defending enough. (Why didn't they at least try to bunker in that game?) He's putting Terrence Boyd alone up front for 82 minutes, with two other strikers on the bench (which would be slightly more OK if they had at least been parking the bus in back during that time).

Take all the weird choices with the change in management and the team looking so unmotivated and this all reeks of internal turmoil. Vanney has clearly either lost the room or has them convinced the lack of roster support is an excuse for this.

We played entitled last year, too. We need a Fergie now, a Tata, an Arena, even. Someone who takes no shit and knows how to win.

Our defense is an aging shambles, our midfield is mediocre and uninspired and why we keep starting Boyd, who shows no clue that he can play anything other than dump-and-chase...

I dunno. I think they've put this down to 'blood the kids a lot' and don't worry about results, because they want us to become like NYRB and Dallas, and produce a lot of players from within. That's Curtis' MO from NY, and if it's politically at odds with Vanney's preferred approach -- i.e. he doesn't think they stand a chance -- perhaps to some degree he's throwing away games to take the heat off them, to put the blame on himself for when Curtis eventually goes to management and says 'something has to change.' It's hard to blame the players when they're set up to lose game after game. He can't in a million years have thought that was our most competitive lineup option.

[Oldtimer]

Vanney's team setup, tactics, and decisions are handicapping these players. After spending several years with them, he should know about their strengths and weaknesses, yet it seems like he and the coaching staff have suddenly stopped playing the players to their strengths. If Brian Schmetzer can get a relatively poor 2016 Sounders team to win the MLS Cup, Vanney has no excuses.

Easy to say without specifying what changes need to be made. I don't believe that any change in formation would miraculously turn things around.

Of course we could always hire back Preki with his 10 men behind the ball approach and lose 1-0 instead of 3-0. :-)

Btw, no way a Tata or an Arena would agree to be under Curtis and subject to his whims.

[ag futbol]

Pressure by whom? This board and Twitter? Everyone in management knows he's trying to play poker with a pair of deuces in his hand and no chance of winning. What other players would any other coach play? What other formation? Let's face it, once you subtract Jozy, Bradley and Osorio this team is only marginally better than Preki's eastern European cast offs.
That’s interesting because what management specifically said before we started this run was they were confident with the group we have.

I don’t think it’s crazy to say that a team that has gone winless for 8 games has a coach that may be under a bit of pressure.

[GerMc]

Easy to say without specifying what changes need to be made. I don't believe that any change in formation would miraculously turn things around.

Of course we could always hire back Preki with his 10 men behind the ball approach and lose 1-0 instead of 3-0. :-)

Btw, no way a Tata or an Arena would agree to be under Curtis and subject to his whims.

I have never been a VanneyOut person, but I am starting to think that it might be time for a change at coach. Exhibit number 1 is that he keeps playing Terrence Boyd. I don't think he has had a good scoring opportunity any game so far, except the penalty in the CCL, which he missed. He cost us a goal tonight with poor defending, so what exactly is his contribution to the team? Jordan Hamilton at least has 4 goals. Please play him instead of Boyd, who is the second coming of Ben Spencer. Exhibit number 2 is Vanney on the sideline gesticulating at his players to play forward, but them not doing it, constantly recycling the ball back. If the players aren't listening to the coach, then what value does he add. I would prefer to see TFC moving forward and giving up more on the transition, than the incredibly boring and ineffective soccer they are playing now. Not having good enough players is not an excuse--if Vanney was an effective coach but with weak players, then they would be playing the style he wants to see, though potentially poorly. Instead we get a style of play that Vanney keeps saying isn't the style he wants. How does he let them play like that?

I PVRed the game and fast forwarded through the last 25 minutes. It was too painful to watch.

[reggie]

with this lineup tonight they wouldnt beat a usl/cpl team

[OgtheDim]

Man I loved 2017 but based on that season we really screwed ourselves that off season with so many decisions that continue to hamper this team.


I can name 3 players on that team who have gotten demonstrably better since - Jozy, Osorio & Chapman. That just isn't good enough.

[MightyDM]

Pressure by whom? This board and Twitter? Everyone in management knows he's trying to play poker with a pair of deuces in his hand and no chance of winning. What other players would any other coach play? What other formation? Let's face it, once you subtract Jozy, Bradley and Osorio this team is only marginally better than Preki's eastern European cast offs.

Himself. Robin Fraser. Manning and Curtis. Players, particularly good ones. some fans. But the first and fourth ones are the most important

[MightyDM]

Man I loved 2017 but based on that season we really screwed ourselves that off season with so many decisions that continue to hamper this team.


I can name 3 players on that team who have gotten demonstrably better since - Jozy, Osorio & Chapman. That just isn't good enough.

we also managed with an arrogance in 2018 that permeated the club - someone used "entitled" earlier - that fits.

Bad decisions -Beita, Raheem (possible excusable)
Players who peaked in 2017 - Zavs; Bono; Morrow; Marky; Moor; possibly Bradley; VV and Seba

[Hamilton_Red]

and another thing...those that get offended when other “big four” sports fans...really MLS is bush league. What other major sport would allow it’s best players to bugger off and keep on playing. Not the NHL... sorry Kawai and Lowry can’t make it tonight they are playing somewhere else. FFS. This league has to get this shit sorted out. There is no reason the Gold Cup can’t be played in the Winter. Word Cup and the Euros are in the off season.

[Oldtimer]

That’s interesting because what management specifically said before we started this run was they were confident with the group we have.


I think that "group" included a fit Jozy, Mavinga, Bradley, and Osorio. That has little relationship to who played tonight.

As I've said before, they will evaluate Vanney based on what they think he can do in 2020, not with this transitional group. If they think he won't be able to work with that team he'll be gone.

[stevep]

and another thing...those that get offended when other “big four” sports fans...really MLS is bush league. What other major sport would allow it’s best players to bugger off and keep on playing. Not the NHL... sorry Kawai and Lowry can’t make it tonight they are playing somewhere else. FFS. This league has to get this shit sorted out. There is no reason the Gold Cup can’t be played in the Winter. Word Cup and the Euros are in the off season.


Are you and I the only ones that can see this???
Add in terrible referring and teams parking the bus all the team against a good team.
Lately it hit me and I have come to the realization that this league is garbage.

[SirBobSaget]

Pressure by whom? This board and Twitter? Everyone in management knows he's trying to play poker with a pair of deuces in his hand and no chance of winning. What other players would any other coach play? What other formation? Let's face it, once you subtract Jozy, Bradley and Osorio this team is only marginally better than Preki's eastern European cast offs.

Despite the missing players Vanney was again fielding a higher payroll roster. Preki did not have anything near this roster. The 3 man backline alone that started was on over 1 million. This roster is overpaid and garbage. End of story. Needs a complete clear out.

[SirBobSaget]

I think it's management AND lack of players AND Vanney. I agree he's been dealt an awful hand, but no need for the team to play THAT badly. He's letting his defenders play undisciplined. He's letting his midfielders get away with not defending enough. (Why didn't they at least try to bunker in that game?) He's putting Terrence Boyd alone up front for 82 minutes, with two other strikers on the bench (which would be slightly more OK if they had at least been parking the bus in back during that time).

Look at NE and Col they changed coaches this year with way worse rosters, both managed to turn it around. Vanney cant get results unless he can throw out 3 DPs and a 30 million $ roster. He has never proved he can win unless he can outspend everyone else.

[MightyDM]

I think that "group" included a fit Jozy, Mavinga, Bradley, and Osorio. That has little relationship to who played tonight.

As I've said before, they will evaluate Vanney based on what they think he can do in 2020, not with this transitional group. If they think he won't be able to work with that team he'll be gone.
You might be right. But my spidey sense tells me Vanney is on thin ice unless the club starts putting in some performances. And starts getting points.

[OgtheDim]

Counterpoint

Full squad, we are in with a chance that game. (missing 5 starters if you count Auro)

[SoccMan2]

and another thing...those that get offended when other “big four” sports fans...really MLS is bush league. What other major sport would allow it’s best players to bugger off and keep on playing. Not the NHL... sorry Kawai and Lowry can’t make it tonight they are playing somewhere else. FFS. This league has to get this shit sorted out. There is no reason the Gold Cup can’t be played in the Winter. Word Cup and the Euros are in the off season.

ry can’tFirst of all let me start off by saying I get what your saying and I agree the MLS should just shut down until at least the semi finals of the Gold Cup . If teams are still effected with player losses during the semi finals of the Gold Cup then those teams would just reschedule their game. However, let’s keep in mind that until this edition of the African Cup of Nations that just started the other day , the African Cup of Nations was always played in January right in the middle of all the big 5 European soccer leagues season, and some big time players would leave their European club teams and go play for their African countries while their club teams had to play without them. So it’s happened within the big leagues in Europe losing big players to a continental tournament smack in the middle of their club season. However, looking at that Dallas lineup last night, if people on these boards would just take a bit of time to be a bit knowledgeable on some of the other teams in the MLS they would have realized that Dallas last night had three young academy produced midfielders all around 20 years of age that are already starters on Dallas dominating TFC’s midfield. TFC’s academy has produced what so far? TFC have guys like Chapman and Hamilton for example that no matter how much playing time they get can never go in there when the regular starters are injured or away and produce any type of consistent wins for the team and we saw this last season as well when players like Chapman and Hamilton had to come in for a long stretch of games and produced squat , it seems whenever guys like Chapman and Hamilton have to come in and play a stretch of games the team loses .

[stegosaurus]

Counterpoint

Full squad, we are in with a chance that game. (missing 5 starters if you count Auro)

Counter-Counterpoint: Dallas was also missing players, has loads of young, homegrown players playing, including 18 year old starters and a bunch of kids subbing on.

Our young players were Fraser, who is actually 21, and Shuffleboard, who shows a glimmer at 19 but is very raw. Our other “young guys” are actually 24 and should be reliable at this point — they aren’t (young or reliable).

Dallas spends 1/3 of our salary bill.

We were one keeper game away from an absolute blowout.

Dallas hasn’t beaten anyone other than a USL team by a 3-0 margin this season (IIRC), so it’s inexplicable that this team can’t even adequately play for a draw or at least minimize a loss on our budget and with the players remaining on the roster.

Every other team seems to be able to hold TFC to a draw or beat us even when they are at a disadvantage, but we can’t even lose gracefully when we’re trying to.

[Ultra & Proud]

Counterpoint

Full squad, we are in with a chance that game. (missing 5 starters if you count Auro)
If the best you can say is we might be in with a chance with a full $20M+ roster then that is underlining our issues.

[Fort York Redcoat]

This was a great example for us to see that our "farm team" needs to be playing at the top level of USL if we have a chance to limp through these spells without our big money players.

I agree we needed to go down a level in the USL with the team we had but

We should be improving the roster there instead to compete at the top USL level.

[Hamilton_Red]

There is another issue that needs to be addressed and that is how we introduce youth and newly signed players. To throw Shaffelburg to the wolves yesterday is a disgrace. You don't develop young players by throwing them in in the most hopeless away fixtures when you are goals down and the veterans have already thrown in the towel. You destroy young players that way. That is a luxury that you earn when winning.

You bring them in, one at a time, playing with your best players around them & a full squad and be very careful of their self-confidence and mentality. That's how good teams do it. Shaffelburg would have been way better off playing a season at York9 before being gradually introduced. We seem to do that repeatedly with our young talent. There is no logic to our development patterns. Endoh made his first team debut in 2016...he played in 21 games...if he wasn't ready or good enough to play last night...why is he in the squad? He has a Senior roster spot. Are we doing the league a favour of some sort? Same with Boyd...there is no logic to his place in the squad unless it is some league signing/agreements. I really wish our sport journalists would ask some tough questions about this nonsense.

[Fort York Redcoat]

There is another issue that needs to be addressed and that is how we introduce youth and newly signed players. To throw Shaffelburg to the wolves yesterday is a disgrace. You don't develop young players by throwing them in in the most hopeless away fixtures when you are goals down and the veterans have already thrown in the towel. You destroy young players that way. That is a luxury that you earn when winning.

You bring them in, one at a time, playing with your best players around them & a full squad and be very careful of their self-confidence and mentality. That's how good teams do it. Shaffelburg would have been way better off playing a season at York9 before being gradually introduced. We seem to do that repeatedly with our young talent. There is no logic to our development patterns. Endoh made his first team debut in 2016...he played in 21 games...if he wasn't ready or good enough to play last night...why is he in the squad? He has a Senior roster spot. Are we doing the league a favour of some sort? Same with Boyd...there is no logic to his place in the squad unless it is some league signing/agreements. I really wish our sport journalists would ask some tough questions about this nonsense.

Not his first match. They are using him sparingly when we are desperate. We may see him for V cup as well.

Fine strategy by me.

[portu]

There is another issue that needs to be addressed and that is how we introduce youth and newly signed players. To throw Shaffelburg to the wolves yesterday is a disgrace. You don't develop young players by throwing them in in the most hopeless away fixtures when you are goals down and the veterans have already thrown in the towel. You destroy young players that way. That is a luxury that you earn when winning.

You bring them in, one at a time, playing with your best players around them & a full squad and be very careful of their self-confidence and mentality. That's how good teams do it. Shaffelburg would have been way better off playing a season at York9 before being gradually introduced. We seem to do that repeatedly with our young talent. There is no logic to our development patterns. Endoh made his first team debut in 2016...he played in 21 games...if he wasn't ready or good enough to play last night...why is he in the squad? He has a Senior roster spot. Are we doing the league a favour of some sort? Same with Boyd...there is no logic to his place in the squad unless it is some league signing/agreements. I really wish our sport journalists would ask some tough questions about this nonsense.
Ha. 'Journalists'.

[ensco]

Much as it pains me, I do see the argument for moving on from Vanney.

Managers have a shelf life, they just lose their impact after a while.

Seattle were 6-12-2 in late July in 2016. Brought in Lodeiro and fired Sigi. Went 8-2-4 the rest of the way. You know the rest.

[Richard]

Too bad Antoinio Conte isnt available, he would be the best foreign manager for an MLS team.

[MightyDM]

Much as it pains me, I do see the argument for moving on from Vanney.

Managers have a shelf life, they just lose their impact after a while.

Seattle were 6-12-2 in late July in 2016. Brought in Lodeiro and fired Sigi. Went 8-2-4 the rest of the way. You know the rest.

Something happened last year. I don't know what it was - maybe after Mexico Seba made it clear that if they didn't re-sign him he was gone; maybe there were some bitter things said in the clubhouse at the time; maybe it is some of the contracts - but they played at a higher level than MLS through the whole CCL run and then poof! skill, organization and desire for the most part have vanished. Quite astonishing. I have come to really like Vanney and his approach, but I think he is going to have to accept responsibility for this. Which means if they don't start playing well as soon as Jozy is back, he is going to be replaced. Just because Gregory VdW was apparently difficult, doesn't mean he was wrong.

[69Chevy396]

Something happened last year. I don't know what it was - maybe after Mexico Seba made it clear that if they didn't re-sign him he was gone; maybe there were some bitter things said in the clubhouse at the time; maybe it is some of the contracts - but they played at a higher level than MLS through the whole CCL run and then poof! skill, organization and desire for the most part have vanished. Quite astonishing. I have come to really like Vanney and his approach, but I think he is going to have to accept responsibility for this. Which means if they don't start playing well as soon as Jozy is back, he is going to be replaced. Just because Gregory VdW was apparently difficult, doesn't mean he was wrong.
I just looked at the team stats. Can somebody tell me what happened to the saviour Pozuelo? Is he the real deal, or just another Spanish player who doesn’t give a shit?

[stevep]

Much as it pains me, I do see the argument for moving on from Vanney.

Managers have a shelf life, they just lose their impact after a while.

Seattle were 6-12-2 in late July in 2016. Brought in Lodeiro and fired Sigi. Went 8-2-4 the rest of the way. You know the rest.

Vanney was fine until the Portland game.
We had 13 points over 6 games.
2.16 PPG

Then our top players went out with injuries and the gold cup tournament.

Vanney is not the problem.

[starter]

It appears nobody from our farm system is prepared to seriously step in. It could be a culture issue when players know their pecking order and not striving to win a position from the establishment. We are not developing competitors, only keeping placeholders.

[Oldtimer]

Vanney was fine until the Portland game.
We had 13 points over 6 games.
2.16 PPG

Then our top players went out with injuries and the gold cup tournament.

Vanney is not the problem.

I think people have completely forgotten the start to the season with this recent spiral. It's why TFC is still in a playoff position. The loss of players is the only change.

[OgtheDim]

I think people have completely forgotten the start to the season with this recent spiral. It's why TFC is still in a playoff position. The loss of players is the only change.

Which is why I gave that counterpoint.

Dallas is a better run squad then ours & better put together but they are not a better group of players when all on both teams are there.

We tend to buy instead of grow - problem with an organization that until recently had no decent academy structure.

As for the TFC II team - they are not good enough as a group for USL's top division - they might be in a few years. But TFC II has been found rather then grown.

This all takes time.

[ensco]

I think people have completely forgotten the start to the season with this recent spiral. It's why TFC is still in a playoff position. The loss of players is the only change.

Who has forgotten? We were lucky in three of those wins. It was literally the main topic on here, that our run of form could not hold.

Vanney had perhaps the best record over 2016-17, but he suddenly cratered last year - he is 15-25 over the past two seasons.

That's the bigger picture, I thought it was injuries and absences last year, but at some point you have to concede it's more than that. This isn’t Golden State getting to the Finals but failing because of injuries - we have been mostly putrid, a bad team that has no business even thinking playoffs, for a long stretch here.

[Red4ever]

It's so boring.

I'd rather dick around on my phone then invest time in seat games.

Might as well move em to cpl at this rate.

[Oldtimer]

Who has forgotten? We were lucky in three of those wins. It was literally the main topic on here, that our run of form could not hold.


We were unlucky with the June 7th game due to terrible officiating. It was literally discussed in the match thread.

A couple of those other games were decided on a shot hitting the post instead of in or just missing the net.

So let's say 3 of those games were wins. Would we even be having this discussion?

[SPALE]

I just looked at the team stats. Can somebody tell me what happened to the saviour Pozuelo? Is he the real deal, or just another Spanish player who doesn’t give a shit?

He needs someone to finish. He cant be the one to create and finish. Even last night when he came in he delivered two great balls and no one on the other end. He needs Jozy back cause Deleon and Boyd just lack the skill to finish consistently or even just finish when talking about Boyd DeLeon had many options on the tru ball for Poz and he opted to shoot right at the keeper. Hard to judge pozuelo right now. When the supporting cast is so horrid around him

[stevep]

It's so boring.

I'd rather dick around on my phone then invest time in seat games.

Might as well move em to cpl at this rate.

That is what I said last game.
I was criticized for saying this.

Now I think what you said is starting to sink in with more people

[ensco]

We were unlucky with the June 7th game due to terrible officiating. It was literally discussed in the match thread.

A couple of those other games were decided on a shot hitting the post instead of in or just missing the net.

So let's say 3 of those games were wins. Would we even be having this discussion?

Probably not.

But I'd still be worried. If that had happened,,,, we'd be the luckiest team in the league, and 18-22 since beginning of 2018. So it's not just any 3 or 5 games.

They are failing the eye test. With the guys they have, even those not missing, they just should be better. (But I haven't watched a full game in weeks until last night... )

[ag futbol]

Probably not.

But I'd still be worried. If that had happened,,,, we'd be the luckiest team in the league, and 18-22 since beginning of 2018. So it's not just any 3 or 5 games.

They are failing the eye test. With the guys they have, even those not missing, they just should be better. (But I haven't watched a full game in weeks until last night... )
My $0.02 ... even when we have to the full first 11 on the field the performances from the supporting cast don’t inspire confidence. We are sunk the minute Altidore is not on the field or has an off game. Vanney’s tactical decisions are still extremely odd. The team looks less and less motivated all the time.

I don’t think Vanney’s a useless manager by any means but I think it’s pretty well time for a changing of the guard here.

[stevep]

I just looked at the team stats. Can somebody tell me what happened to the saviour Pozuelo? Is he the real deal, or just another Spanish player who doesn’t give a shit?
Keep the faith.
Come July 13th we'll have jozy, Bradley Oso, mavinga, giovinco, Oscar Gonzalez, ciman, and morrow.
We'll start kicking everybody ass

[tfcfans]

Keep the faith.
Come July 13th we'll have jozy, Bradley Oso, mavinga, giovinco, Oscar Gonzalez, ciman, and morrow.
We'll start kicking everybody ass

You just threw Gio in there for fun right?! :rolleyes: (I agree that until July 13th there is no point watching or seriously evaluating this group (they won’t score more than 3 goals combined in the next three games), as without a healthy starting 11 on the field we have no chance to be seriously competitive - especially up front if Jozy isn’t playing at least 80% of the minutes from July 13 onwards)....

[Derko]

Ahh!!
Men against boys.

The absolute worst British Football term used way too much, and I am British, it so 'Hooray Henry' and all that poppycock.

And Dallas has 4 teenagers on the pitch.

[OgtheDim]

QeW gets 2nd team of the week honours for this match.

[stevep]

You just threw Gio in there for fun right?! :rolleyes: (I agree that until July 13th there is no point watching or seriously evaluating this group (they won’t score more than 3 goals combined in the next three games), as without a healthy starting 11 on the field we have no chance to be seriously competitive - especially up front if Jozy isn’t playing at least 80% of the minutes from July 13 onwards)....

I'm fairly certain he's coming back