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ensco
02-15-2019, 11:58 AM
So. Manning. Been making notes for a couple of days.

Appointed President in October 2015.

Things he did together with Bez (and Vanney of course)

Hits:
- Moving on from a whole raft of guys: Jackson, Findley, Bendik, Kantari, Warner, Perquis
- signing Will Johnson
- moving Will Johnson to get Vazquez (this was massive, this counts triple)
- signing Chris Mavinga
- convincing Drew Moor to come
- trading for Clint Irwin
- trading for Steven Beitashour
- signing Armando Cooper in 2016
- signing Nico Hasler
- signing Auro

Misses
- moving Beitashour and signing van der Wiel (ugly mistake that will hurt us over multiple years – we could have dealt for, say, Lee Nguyen with the TAM we spent on van der Wiel, and have a ready made solution for VV departure there)
- Signing Aketxe (same point as above)
- Staying with Cooper in 2017
- Signing Janson
- Protecting Zavaleta over Edwards, and then signing Zavaleta (to be fair, a lot of us got this wrong too, tough to move a starter for nothing, coming off a championship year)
- General weakness of Academy and youth player development
- strategy to wait to deal with DPs until contracts expire (this is something that I think was a huge own goal, this was foreseeable from a mile away – this isn’t North American sports, players don’t just play out contracts if they have options – other shoe hasn’t dropped yet with Altidore but I think there is a real chance it will)

Things he did on his own

Hits

- staying with Bez, would have been easy to change him out
- staying with Vanney, didn’t move him out for his own guy (eg Kreis)

Misses

- poor field conditions at BMO Field
- All things Argos and ground share

Things he did with Curtis and Vanney

Hits

- identifying Pozuelo (I think, this may be premature)
- trading Hagglund for a boatload of assets (impossible to evaluate Deleon, Ciman deals yet)

Misses

- starting process to acquire Pozuelo on our own by triggering release without understanding situation
- general lack of readiness for 2019 season

Bottom Line

We went to three finals in 18 months and never lost any of them. That may not happen again in MLS in 50 years. He has a lot of goodwill stored up (for me anyways). But he is definitely depleting it.

He wins more than he loses on player acquisition. That’s all you can ask. But players came to play with Giovinco. The decline in his success rate may have something to do with that. The degree of difficulty got much harder as players realized Gio may leave, and of course now it’s just that much harder.

Biggest issue: that effing field had better get finally sorted this year. This has gone on for too long, and I definitely believe it cost us Vazquez.

Second biggest issue: young players. We are WAY behind what elite teams are doing, I hope there is urgency on that.

For me, those two issues are bigger than wins and losses in 2019. Not that anyone gets a free pass on wins and losses two years in a row. But if we are a middling team with an identity, and the field and youth issues get sorted, I am OK.

Yuushalinsky
02-15-2019, 12:23 PM
I think his biggest miss is assuming he would have another year with his Bez-era team to allow for time to settle in with Curtis - that being said, what would Manning really prefer? TFC going out of their way to begin shopping around early enough that players you thought were with you long-term suddenly doubt your loyalty to them? TFC playing the loyalty game and then being blindsided when this shit happens? I don't think it's very clear cut and that, if nothing else, Curtis deserves at least a year before we start throwing the dude under the bus.

That being said, it's a shame that the academy is so damn awful. That's another point that needs to change and that is wholly Manning and Co.'s faults.

noimpactinmtl
02-15-2019, 01:28 PM
I think his biggest miss is assuming he would have another year with his Bez-era team to allow for time to settle in with Curtis - that being said, what would Manning really prefer? TFC going out of their way to begin shopping around early enough that players you thought were with you long-term suddenly doubt your loyalty to them? TFC playing the loyalty game and then being blindsided when this shit happens? I don't think it's very clear cut and that, if nothing else, Curtis deserves at least a year before we start throwing the dude under the bus.

That being said, it's a shame that the academy is so damn awful. That's another point that needs to change and that is wholly Manning and Co.'s faults.

Our academy has not produced an Alphonso Davies or Ballou. The reality is we’re in Canada, with one of the worst talent pool for football relative to population size/wealth.

For the past 8 years, our most notable academy products are Jonathan Osorio, Ashtone Morgan, Raheem Edwards and Doneil Henry.

Our academy not producing is not on Manning, it’s a reflection of how shallow our local talent pool is. This requires a reform of how our local football clubs work and a need to offer free academies with coaching that emphasize technique over physicality and wins.

Yuushalinsky
02-15-2019, 01:33 PM
Our academy has not produced an Alphonso Davies or Ballou. The reality is we’re in Canada, with one of the worst talent pool for football relative to population size/wealth.

For the past 8 years, our most notable academy products are Jonathan Osorio, Ashtone Morgan, Raheem Edwards and Doneil Henry.

Our academy not producing is not on Manning, it’s a reflection of how shallow our local talent pool is. This requires a reform of how our local football clubs work and a need to offer free academies with coaching that emphasize technique over physicality and wins.
TFC is a huge part of this. I agree, but I don't think Manning is free of blame on this.

OgtheDim
02-15-2019, 02:00 PM
Manning isn't responsible for the debacle that was the TFC academy pre Bez.

********

As this is a discussion of a team President, I would say

the handling of the FHITP incident & the Inebriatti stupidity eruptions deserves a nod of approval


handling the media is a plus.
(NYCFC is an example of what not to do - they ignore the League rules about access all the time & make it actively difficult for journos to do their job - if you wonder why NYC doesn't get a lot of good press compared to its parent club, that's why)

ensco
02-15-2019, 02:12 PM
Manning isn't responsible for the debacle that was the TFC academy pre Bez.

********

As this is a discussion of a team President, I would say

the handling of the FHITP incident & the Inebriatti stupidity eruptions deserves a nod of approval


handling the media is a plus.
(NYCFC is an example of what not to do - they ignore the League rules about access all the time & make it actively difficult for journos to do their job - if you wonder why NYC doesn't get a lot of good press compared to its parent club, that's why)

Agree with these points except the Academy point.

Downsview was opened well before Manning got here, so he has no excuses. That is an incredible asset, sitting right on the subway line like that. The academy should be a huge priority for the President. If he needs to, he should spend 2 days a week up there.

I am not in the youth soccer scene, haven't been for a long time, but I hear too many stories about TFC trying to throw its weight around in youth soccer, and not working with the numerous powerful youth clubs around the city.

Separately we don't seem to be developing those players who do make the roster. Hamilton and many others have stalled/fizzled.

I am benchmarking against NYRB and Dallas. We should be doing better. The buck on that stops with Manning.

OgtheDim
02-15-2019, 02:20 PM
I'd like to here if we are still doing the throwing weight around thing with the academy.

It takes 6 years to turn around an academy to create a player.

Initial B
02-15-2019, 04:36 PM
Our academy not producing is not on Manning, it’s a reflection of how shallow our local talent pool is. This requires a reform of how our local football clubs work and a need to offer free academies with coaching that emphasize technique over physicality and wins.

I am not in the youth soccer scene, haven't been for a long time, but I hear too many stories about TFC trying to throw its weight around in youth soccer, and not working with the numerous powerful youth clubs around the city.
These are the two biggest problems with Youth soccer in Canada today - the pay-to-play model allows some of the most talented kids to fall through the cracks, and the grass-roots clubs are the tail wagging the dog of Ontario Soccer. Everyone thinks they know they have the best way to play and woe betide any group that tries to poach your players. Everyone is looking for their club to be the most prestigious in the area and egos get in the way of what's best for soccer in this country as a whole. Not to mention the politics of certain players moving forward based on who they know than how well they play. After navigating this thicket for the past 13 years with my son, I'm really sick of it all and looking forward to getting him out into a University team. Navigating the system can be really draining and it's going to take a concerted effort from the top at Canadian Soccer and their provincial equivalents to get everyone pulling in the same direction. Sometimes I think Canadian kids develop in spite of Canadian Soccer, not because of it.

magmadragon
02-16-2019, 12:36 AM
"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to ensco again."

Areathrasher
02-16-2019, 08:52 AM
Do we know how involved Manning was in player decisions, esp MLS trades, while Bez was here?

Oldtimer
02-16-2019, 08:55 AM
Bringing in Curtis may be an attempt to improve the academy. Many of the problems that the GTA has with pay for play etc. would apply to New Jersey.

ensco
05-20-2019, 01:41 PM
The Curtis thread misses the point I think.

I would like journalists to start putting pressure on Manning about player acquisition decisions. He is hiding in the citadel while a guy who has been out for two years, and didn’t have a big resume to begin with, runs around with what seems like purposeless energy.

Specifically, as a for instance, a journalist could ask Manning about Tesho, who was practically given away by Dallas in the offseason.

Why weren’t we in on him?

DinamoTFC
05-20-2019, 02:06 PM
We don't have journalists. We have writers who relay information that the club releases.

portu
05-20-2019, 03:32 PM
We don't have hard hitting journos. Something happened between 2014-15 that killed the ability of our journos to not only break news but also ask tough questions.

ensco
05-21-2019, 08:20 AM
Manning also got called out by Jozy, don’t forget, on the therapist thing, and then got away with calling Jozy a child throwing a tantrum. That whole incident belonged in this thread.

The facts are that Jozy is signed, and that he patched it up publicly with Manning, but that does not mean that things were or are OK there, btw. I would keep a very close eye on that.

This could be a wild summer, and not in a good way.

Auzzy
05-21-2019, 04:28 PM
Manning also got called out by Jozy, don’t forget, on the therapist thing, and then got away with calling Jozy a child throwing a tantrum. That whole incident belonged in this thread.

The facts are that Jozy is signed, and that he patched it up publicly with Manning, but that does not mean that things were or are OK there, btw. I would keep a very close eye on that.

This could be a wild summer, and not in a good way.

Exactly. Bradley is very careful, but based on what he said after Altidore got publicly upset, it was clear that he also didn't know for sure what was happening with that trainer. This was a trainer who worked with all three DPs previously; they let him go; they were apparently negotiating to bring him back (and work with more players); but in the interim they didn't make that very clear to their two remaining DPs including the captain? You could say: a player should never go off in public like that. But it was clear there was more to it; at least bad communication. And then add the "child tantrum" quote as ensco mentioned: doesn't look great.

Richard
05-21-2019, 05:25 PM
Manning also got called out by Jozy, don’t forget, on the therapist thing, and then got away with calling Jozy a child throwing a tantrum. That whole incident belonged in this thread.

The facts are that Jozy is signed, and that he patched it up publicly with Manning, but that does not mean that things were or are OK there, btw. I would keep a very close eye on that.

This could be a wild summer, and not in a good way.

Has there been anytime in sports history where a GM called a player out like that and neither departed the club? I got to think the board isn't happy a star player was slagged as such, but at the same time Manning can point to the fact it wasn't his DP and were hamstrung by the Giovinco situation so they needed to sign him. Manning could point to the fact his injury history makes him a major liability, this summer could get ugly on these boards. Dero drama level.

ensco
06-13-2019, 10:45 AM
Paul Tenorio of the Athletic does an All-Budget MLS XI.

Including honourable mentions, it lists 34 guys total that represent the best value for money in MLS.

Any guesses how many of the 34 are TFC players?

ag futbol
06-13-2019, 11:01 AM
Paul Tenorio of the Athletic does an All-Budget MLS XI.

Including honourable mentions, it lists 34 guys total that represent the best value for money in MLS.

Any guesses how many of the 34 are TFC players?
I’m going to say zero but in their slight defence i’ll take the trophies instead of the budgetary awards.

jabbronies
06-13-2019, 11:16 AM
I’m going to say zero but in their slight defence i’ll take the trophies instead of the budgetary awards.

agreed

Canary10
06-13-2019, 11:19 AM
Paul Tenorio of the Athletic does an All-Budget MLS XI.

Including honourable mentions, it lists 34 guys total that represent the best value for money in MLS.

Any guesses how many of the 34 are TFC players?

Is it 7?

stegosaurus
06-13-2019, 11:44 AM
Paul Tenorio of the Athletic does an All-Budget MLS XI.

Including honourable mentions, it lists 34 guys total that represent the best value for money in MLS.

Any guesses how many of the 34 are TFC players?

One thing from that article that is interesting in TFC’s case that hasn’t necessarily been discussed is how LAFC managed to replaced Horta with significantly lower-budget pieces. Sure, it was a big flop and a loss of money, but they still retained a 50% sell-on, freed up a DP slot, and have come out ahead by finding players who actually succeeded.

Compare that to TFC, where every year since the cup win we’ve blown money on TAM players who never worked out, having to buy them out and constraining the players we can actually bring in, while neither being able to replace them on the field nor being able to find cheap prospects to fill the roles.

This also relates to injury issues, where our depth really in a bunch of positions is incredibly weak and probably overpaid. Someone like Boyd or Zavaleta on <$60k is fine, especially if they’re young and there’s some upside. When they’re making quadruple or more that amount you’ve made a bad decision.

OgtheDim
06-13-2019, 12:08 PM
Is lobbying the CSA to have the Canada v Cuba & Canada v USA games in Toronto a success point for Manning?

ag futbol
06-13-2019, 12:25 PM
I'd like to here if we are still doing the throwing weight around thing with the academy.

It takes 6 years to turn around an academy to create a player.
I’m not so sure it takes that long and I’ve been a huge critic of their academy work in recent years ***but**

I see a lot of good stuff coming through right now. Probably a half dozen guys 15 and older that have a good chance of going pro or maybe (in certain circumstances) being great.

Let’s hope we make something of this.

Edit: just saw this was an old post, my bad.

stegosaurus
06-13-2019, 12:45 PM
Is lobbying the CSA to have the Canada v Cuba & Canada v USA games in Toronto a success point for Manning?

I guess. Good for CMNT fans if you are one, unless you live elsewhere in the country. With the CPL starting this year it seems kind of dumb though.

Cas87
06-13-2019, 12:52 PM
Is lobbying the CSA to have the Canada v Cuba & Canada v USA games in Toronto a success point for Manning?


I guess. Good for CMNT fans if you are one, unless you live elsewhere in the country. With the CPL starting this year it seems kind of dumb though.

I'd say it is a win on the business side as BMO is still billed *most* of the time as the 'National Soccer Stadium' so having the Nations League games here makes sense.
Also for the business side I think it was pretty assured the USA game was going to be here because; 1) Jozy and Michael, 2) Media Focus of Canada, 3) Americans like coming to Toronto
the Cuba game I am surprised they got for BMO as I thought it would be the contender to go out West to spread the games but thinking more deeply on it it makes sense to play in Toronto and the fly out of Toronto to Havana (as the games are 3 days apart).

ensco
06-13-2019, 01:10 PM
I’m going to say zero but in their slight defence i’ll take the trophies instead of the budgetary awards.

They kind of run together, it isn’t and either/or. We had a bunch of players in 2017 that would have been on that list, at their 2017 salaries and performance levels - Zavaleta, Delgado, Bono... maybe Morrow and Chapman too.

The answer is zero.

Canary10
06-13-2019, 02:57 PM
They kind of run together, it isn’t and either/or. We had a bunch of players in 2017 that would have been on that list, at their 2017 salaries and performance levels - Zavaleta, Delgado, Bono... maybe Morrow and Chapman too.

The answer is zero.

Damn, I was wrong.

ag futbol
06-13-2019, 03:11 PM
They kind of run together, it isn’t and either/or. We had a bunch of players in 2017 that would have been on that list, at their 2017 salaries and performance levels - Zavaleta, Delgado, Bono... maybe Morrow and Chapman too.

The answer is zero.
Assume there is carry-over here. Some of our not-so-valuable current deals are the “valuable” ones from 2017-2018.

But maybe I’m wrong.

OgtheDim
06-13-2019, 03:12 PM
Grant Wahl's ambition rankings is out (admittedly his subjective viewpoint)

https://www.si.com/soccer/2019/06/10/mls-ambition-rankings-2019


The TFC bit is kinda weird - he seems to be equating ambition with making major moves and saying TFC might not - but this after mentionning the Pozuelo transfer fee (tied for 3rd most ever with the recent Portland fee for Brian Fernandez) & the new field.

ensco
06-16-2021, 10:45 AM
Funny how little traction this thread got.

Both Ali and Armas have the smell of something off around them. The results aren't really the issue, but they don't help.

To say that both hires are poor communicators doesn't quite cover it - they both really come off as vacuous and insincere. If they do it with us, imagine how it must seem to the MLSE bosses ....

I think Manning is in a bit of a tight spot here. He can't just move on, but it isn't working.....

Smokecell
06-16-2021, 10:49 AM
^ Shouldn't be that surprising. It's hard for a fan to effectively evaluate a president. Too much that goes on outside of the public eye that we'll never know. All we see is what happens on the field, and as in other sports, the coach and GM are the ones who take the heat.

MightyDM
06-16-2021, 10:53 AM
Funny how little traction this thread got.

Both Ali and Armas have the smell of something off around them. The results aren't really the issue, but they don't help.

To say that both hires are poor communicators doesn't quite cover it - they both really come off as vacuous and insincere. If they do it with us, imagine how it must seem to the MLSE bosses ....

I think Manning is in a bit of a tight spot here. He can't just move on, but it isn't working.....

What they are doing to Jozy smells the same way.They could have fined him, had him train for a day on his own, suspended for one game, etc - done something to assert Armas authority - but picking a massive public fight with a club legend (and still the best striker) smacks of insecurity. And its stupid. The fight is a destabilizing distraction when the club is teetering on the edge of a disaster of a season.

jloome
06-16-2021, 10:55 AM
Funny how little traction this thread got.

Both Ali and Armas have the smell of something off around them. The results aren't really the issue, but they don't help.

To say that both hires are poor communicators doesn't quite cover it - they both really come off as vacuous and insincere. If they do it with us, imagine how it must seem to the MLSE bosses ....

I think Manning is in a bit of a tight spot here. He can't just move on, but it isn't working.....

I read a few threads on Manning from RSL fans last year in which they were not complimentary. They felt he coasted as president. They had success, and he benefited from it, but as soon as certain coaches moved on it was clear he was just taking credit. They didn't develop their DP or player base after their win in 2009 and the club languished.

He was let go by RSL three months before we hired him as part of a complete front-office reshuffle.

Twice, the guy has won "MLS executive of the year" only to be let go within two years of the award. In 2002 he presided over the Tampa Bay Mutiny, which had to contract.

So he seems good at attaching himself to success but he doesn't really produce anything or add anything. IN all three clubs he's been at, he's come in right before a winning year or something noteworthy then the club has slid continually.

Richard
06-16-2021, 11:28 AM
Who evaluates Manning? Is it the airline bean counter CEO still? MLSE has changed so much since Tim left.

They're now the usual bog standard faceless corporation. At least when Anselmi or Tim was here we had someone to scapegoat haha.

Seems like TFC doesn't have anyone at the corporate level giving a shit, say what you will about Anselmi at least tried, he even built us world class facilities, and of course Tim was best thing to ever happen to MLSE.

ag futbol
06-16-2021, 11:41 AM
Little hard to say, but in general I’m underwhelmed. There’s nothing particularly inspired about his leadership and his choices for the people below him are mediocre.

If this club truly envisions itself as a leader in North America or has broader ambitions , we’re not going to get there with Manning and company guiding the ship.

To be frank, MLS has purposely been insular to provide Americas with opportunities, which we sort of have to accept but... it has the side effect of re-treading a lot of experienced people and not providing enough chances for better candidates to step in.

Did Armas and Ali really deserve second chances in MLS? With a club like TFC? Does Bill Manning really have the chops to be the president? I would say no in all cases. This team needs to look for it’s own Masai, not settle for a bunch of 3rd choice selections, likely offered up by the league.

ensco
06-16-2021, 11:47 AM
I kind of expect him to quit in the not too distant future. Seems easier than figuring this out. Move on to some big USSF job or something.

ensco
06-16-2021, 11:50 AM
say what you will about Anselmi at least tried, he even built us world class facilities, and of course Tim was best thing to ever happen to MLSE.

No, that's not really right. Anselmi did back grass at BMO (but only with the Edu proceeds, which you could argue was a way for him to not use the sale proceeds to buy other players, which is what should have happened). Leiweke is the one who got Downsview Park done (and that, together with the Raptors facility, is what got Leiweke sideways with MLSE, as that was $50M+ for both)

jloome
06-16-2021, 11:55 AM
No, that's not really right. Anselmi did back grass at BMO (but only with the Edu proceeds, which could argue was a way for him to not use the sale proceeds to buy other players, which is what should have happened). Leiweke is the one who got Downsview Park done (and that, together with the Raptors facility, is what got Leiweke sideways with MLSE)

My social instinct is always to avoid the salesmen/showmen types as being ephemeral hype. But that guy really got shit done.

Bez was a great GM, too. Man, MLSE is the one really dropping the ball here.

We had Lieweke, Vanney and Bezbatchenko and now we're looking at 2009 Redux.

Richard
06-16-2021, 12:01 PM
No, that's not really right. Anselmi did back grass at BMO (but only with the Edu proceeds, which could argue was a way for him to not use the sale proceeds to buy other players, which is what should have happened). Leiweke is the one who got Downsview Park done (and that, together with the Raptors facility, is what got Leiweke sideways with MLSE)

Ok maybe my memory is failing me. I thought it Anselmi was the one who got the ball rolling on training facilities visiting international teams.

Ultra & Proud
06-16-2021, 01:14 PM
For me all the judgement is based on how our upper management handle their direct subordinate.

So my judgment on Curtis is how long he decides to let Armas run the team into the dirt results wise and how much damage he is allowed to cause in the locker room before making that call. His player acquisitions have been slow but fine and the pieces are clearly there to win so it's all about the Armas apppointment and how long that's forced to last that decides his fate and probably legacy.

For Manning it's how long he lets Curtis doddle and not do what's necessary in regards to Armas and the the next managerial hire that will be his judgement measuring stick.

It's a trickle up causality instead of the usual shit rolls downhill way.

ensco
06-16-2021, 01:16 PM
For me all the judgement is based on how our upper management handle their direct subordinate.

So my judgment on Curtis is how long he decides to let Armas run the team into the dirt results wise and how much damage he is allowed to cause in the locker room before making that call. His player acquisitions have been slow but fine and the pieces are clearly there to win so it's all about the Armas apppointment and how long that's forced to last that decides his fate and probably legacy.

For Manning it's how long he lets Curtis doddle and not do what's necessary in regards to Armas and the the next managerial hire that will be his judgement measuring stick.

It's a trickle up causality instead of the usual shit rolls downhill way.

I would amend that to say that Manning clearly had a role in Armas' hiring, possibly even the decisive role

#Armasout solves nothing, it's peeing in your pants to stay warm, if that isn't the actual root cause problem.

Ultra & Proud
06-16-2021, 01:51 PM
I would amend that to say that Manning clearly had a role in Armas' hiring, possibly even the decisive role

#Armasout solves nothing, it's peeing in your pants to stay warm, if that isn't the actual root cause problem.

I think his role was trusting the guy he directly hired, Curtis to use his MLS/NYRB "knowledge" to hire a manager that can run the team seamlessly after Vanney as is without a major overhaul. That was probably his involvement and also his mistake. Technically his word is the decisive one as he's the one to greenlight or kaibosh any major decisions at the club but I think Manning is a lot less hands on TFC now as MLSE have him juggling all sorts of crap.

However, I bet Munoz was a Manning hire as he would know him from the RSL connection much like Curtis & Armas.

Bushmancan
06-16-2021, 01:55 PM
It is about the vision of your club...

Do you aspire to be Real Salt Lake or to be one of the three or four big clubs in North America. Right now, i think they are happy with the former, Leweike wasn't.... I think we all demand on this board, we must aspire to more.

Letting ego's run wild and humiliating a club legend is wrong (If Jozy was wrong, I expect Jozy to step up as well.)... it is time for Manning to step in. Sitting Jozy when when he should be in your lineup is just egos out of control.... until he is sold he needs to be in the lineup or an explanation to fans.

Clearly they are at an impasse... time for the President to do his job, because the others cannot.

Auzzy
06-16-2021, 02:33 PM
I have to wonder how much negative effect it had to put the Argos under Manning's control as well. I mean that team also has lots of issues, many very different from TFC. Seems like a dumb arrangement.

ensco
06-16-2021, 03:00 PM
I think his role was trusting the guy he directly hired, Curtis to use his MLS/NYRB "knowledge" to hire a manager that can run the team seamlessly after Vanney as is without a major overhaul. That was probably his involvement and also his mistake. Technically his word is the decisive one as he's the one to greenlight or kaibosh any major decisions at the club but I think Manning is a lot less hands on TFC now as MLSE have him juggling all sorts of crap.

However, I bet Munoz was a Manning hire as he would know him from the RSL connection much like Curtis & Armas.

"One day into the job and new Toronto FC coach Chris Armas is already feeling right at home.

The former New York Red Bulls boss has extensive ties to his new club. Toronto GM Ali Curtis was sporting director at the Red Bulls while Armas was an assistant coach prior to getting the top job there.

Back in the early '90s, Armas played for Puerto Rico alongside current Toronto president Bill Manning. Both men spent time in the USL with Armas at the Long Island Rough Riders and Manning — who went on to become the Rough Riders GM prior to working in MLS — at the New York Fever. ..."

https://www.cbc.ca/sports/soccer/mls/chris-armas-feeling-at-home-toronto-fc-1.5873813

DavemTFC
06-16-2021, 09:29 PM
Well congrats to Armas on getting a job where his two direct superiors were already his buddies.

I think the predictions of Armas staying put until there's no chance of us making the playoffs are correct. We're screwed until 2022

PizzaEatingYeti
06-17-2021, 05:10 AM
Well congrats to Armas on getting a job where his two direct superiors were already his buddies.

I think the predictions of Armas staying put until there's no chance of us making the playoffs are correct. We're screwed until 2022

I think exactly the same.
Nobody is getting fired here until TFC-s record (and club image) will be stomped so deeply into the mud, that it's beyond any repair for 2021.
And then we'll lose another 1/3 - 1/2 season next year adjusting to new coach/style of play, etc.

ag futbol
06-17-2021, 05:33 AM
Well congrats to Armas on getting a job where his two direct superiors were already his buddies.

I think the predictions of Armas staying put until there's no chance of us making the playoffs are correct. We're screwed until 2022
Let’s see the size of the face plant they have to deal with. At a certain point, this is damage mitigation for Ali and Bill. They might like Armas and be familiar with him, but neither is going to take a bullet for him.

Imagine authorizing extra spend to continue to make your team the highest paid side in MLS and reading headlines about the type of things we’ve seen this year. Then, seeing your high paid side sitting close to last place, next to recent expansion sides and thrifty spenders.

Our BoG might be stupid, but they aren’t that stupid.

Areathrasher
06-17-2021, 08:43 AM
No, that's not really right. Anselmi did back grass at BMO (but only with the Edu proceeds, which you could argue was a way for him to not use the sale proceeds to buy other players, which is what should have happened). Leiweke is the one who got Downsview Park done (and that, together with the Raptors facility, is what got Leiweke sideways with MLSE, as that was $50M+ for both)

Training ground was opened before Tim L was hired. Think you are mixing it up the BMO renos.


In April 2011, Toronto FC unveiled plans to develop a state-of-the-art facility and soccer program that will look to develop the next generation of Canadian players through coaching, training, technology, equipment and support.
BMO Training Ground and the Toronto FC Academy opened its doors the summer of 2012.
Located on 14 Acres of land at Downsview Park, BMO training ground represents a $21 Million investment made by Toronto FC and Maple Leaf Sports & Entertainment in the future of Canadian soccer.

https://www.torontofc.ca/academy/teams/about/bmotg


April 26, 2013: MLSE hires Tim Leiweke as president and CEO. In his run at Los Angeles-based AEG, Leiweke had built a reputation as a visionary, a big-picture thinker and a skilled leader.

https://www.thestar.com/sports/leafs/2015/10/29/timeline-of-tim-leiweke-era-at-mlse.html?rf

ensco
06-17-2021, 10:40 AM
^You are right. My bad.

I take it back Tom Anselmi, wherever you are!

Kamp Berg
06-26-2021, 11:39 AM
The more I think and mull over the present situation, the more I think Ensco is right. Manning needs to be the one to take the fall. I don’t think anything will happen until the team is back home, but the issues with the team appear to be systemic and those sorts of problems can only be fixed by changing the head of the organization. If Armas and Ali can survive a change in leadership, then good for them, but I highly doubt it.

Initial B
06-26-2021, 07:14 PM
One of the things I'm beginning to suspect is that Manning is a coat-tail rider. I think most teams have these members of the front office, but just having one or two members of the front office that are exceptional can cover them up. But if the President, General Manager, and Coach are all coat-tail riders, then you see problems with the organization. Kind of like TFC the past year - Little communication, team dynamics askew, and no answers.

Manning got the job based on his experience in the RSL Front Office. In hindsight, I think we can all see that he was riding the coat-tails of Lagerway and when Seattle headhunted him, he immediately jumped onto the coat-tails of Bez and Vanney at TFC. I think we could see the cracks after Bez left, and the hire of Curtis is directly on Manning, and the hire of Armas is indirectly on Manning through Curtis. I think you need to start with the best at the top and while Manning was a top executive in MLS 1.0, the league may have passed him by. I think TFC needs a Masai Ujiri-type leader who started as GM and was promoted to president and appointed a new GM. I think that would help provide some continuity and organizational history.

Auzzy
06-26-2021, 07:27 PM
One of the things I'm beginning to suspect is that Manning is a coat-tail rider. I think most teams have these members of the front office, but just having one or two members of the front office that are exceptional can cover them up. But if the President, General Manager, and Coach are all coat-tail riders, then you see problems with the organization. Kind of like TFC the past year - Little communication, team dynamics askew, and no answers.

Manning got the job based on his experience in the RSL Front Office. In hindsight, I think we can all see that he was riding the coat-tails of Lagerway and when Seattle headhunted him, he immediately jumped onto the coat-tails of Bez and Vanney at TFC. I think we could see the cracks after Bez left, and the hire of Curtis is directly on Manning, and the hire of Armas is indirectly on Manning through Curtis. I think you need to start with the best at the top and while Manning was a top executive in MLS 1.0, the league may have passed him by. I think TFC needs a Masai Ujiri-type leader who started as GM and was promoted to president and appointed a new GM. I think that would help provide some continuity and organizational history.

Actually reminds me of Kevin Payne. When he came to TFC, I got a serious warning from a close friend in DC who is very knowledgable about the local scene there. He also knew a number of people who worked for a long time at DCU. Payne had a good reputation externally, mostly as he was one of the first execs to work with supporters groups. At DC he failed at things he was supposed to do (like building a stadium and selling tickets), yet got involved with things where he had no clue whatsoever (like player scouting and transactions).

Perhaps another one of those situations where TFC didn't know who to hire, and asked the league for a recommendation. So MLS sends you somebody that has been around a long time, probably knows too much about the skeletons in the closets, and needs to be kept happy. Like Mo Johnston, Kevin Payne and Bill Manning.

OgtheDim
06-26-2021, 07:53 PM
Manning to me has done really good at the business side & the game experience.


His two biggest hires though when it comes to the team on the field have not been good enough.

Auzzy
06-26-2021, 08:00 PM
Manning to me has done really good at the business side & the game experience.

His two biggest hires though when it comes to the team on the field have not been good enough.

Really, what's gotten much better on the business side and game experience? Seems like most of the big changes were triggered by Leiweke.

I don't think he's done well on the Argo's business side. Not sure if that's a hopeless undertaking though.

OgtheDim
06-26-2021, 08:02 PM
Really, what's gotten much better on the business side and game experience? Seems like most of the big changes were triggered by Leiweke.



Its been awhile since we've been there but I remember the pregame was static & stale & there was no attempt to bring in modern conveniences.

ensco
06-26-2021, 08:12 PM
So Armas is going to have to go. I doubt he lasts 48 hours…

Tanenbaum cannot allow Manning and Curtis to do anything other than an interim hire here.

Richard
06-26-2021, 08:31 PM
The team needs an honest and open discussion regarding the Jozy situation. Part of the reason we are so abysmal is because our DP striker is not playing, whether that's his own fault, or the egos in management, we need clarity.

The team cannot be allowed to just sweep our talisman under the rug. Tanenbaum, and the board need put everyone under a microscope, this is horseshit.

OgtheDim
06-26-2021, 08:38 PM
So Armas is going to have to go. I doubt he lasts 48 hours…

Tanenbaum cannot allow Manning and Curtis to do anything other than an interim hire here.

I hope you are right.

I think in a normal world you would be right.


I still get the feeling management firmly believes this is all due to not being at home. Until tonight, I agreed with that. But what I saw tonight was waaaay deeper in terms of coach capability.


Manning isn't stupid though & he knows where this is going. He almost fired Vanney in 2018 after that year. The Manning that thought that one through would make the decision tonight. Do we still have that Manning though?

Oldtimer
06-26-2021, 09:28 PM
So Armas is going to have to go. I doubt he lasts 48 hours…

Tanenbaum cannot allow Manning and Curtis to do anything other than an interim hire here.


I hope you are right.

I think in a normal world you would be right.


I still get the feeling management firmly believes this is all due to not being at home. Until tonight, I agreed with that. But what I saw tonight was waaaay deeper in terms of coach capability.


Manning isn't stupid though & he knows where this is going. He almost fired Vanney in 2018 after that year. The Manning that thought that one through would make the decision tonight. Do we still have that Manning though?

Dunno if he is going to force a change before TFC is back at BMO. If they weren't playing every game actually away, I'm pretty sure Armas would have been out already. As it is, he may be out just because TFC stinks so bad and Joey Saputo's cheapskate club is doing better despite the same issues of playing away. However, Manning may give him until late August. I guess we'll see.

Longer term, the MLSE board will expect a return on investment, and cellar-dweller isn't it. Larry T wants his teams to win. Bell and Rogers want playoffs for content for their networks. Manning knows this so he will have to act.

Auzzy
06-26-2021, 09:53 PM
I'm concerned that Manning may just be a small-market guy and not the right one for the (theoretic) ambitions of MLSE and the broadcasters.

Maybe promote him to head of in-game experience and stadium ops and get somebody else to deal with the sports side. :D

ensco
06-26-2021, 10:47 PM
I have tried to bend over backwards given Covid etc… these things are real. You have to consider that the pandemic has placed a particular burden on TFC.

But I give up. Sometimes, you find out who is not wearing bathing suits only when the tide goes out.

MightyDM
06-26-2021, 10:56 PM
The team needs an honest and open discussion regarding the Jozy situation. Part of the reason we are so abysmal is because our DP striker is not playing, whether that's his own fault, or the egos in management, we need clarity.

The team cannot be allowed to just sweep our talisman under the rug. Tanenbaum, and the board need put everyone under a microscope, this is horseshit.

Yes. Some other things too, in addition to the coach. What do we do at CB? From a tactical perspective, why did we bring in Soteldo? when everyone is heathy, what do we do with our midfield? Do we really wan tto develop Priso and Okello? and more, those are just top of mind.

Red CB Toronto
06-26-2021, 11:02 PM
So Armas is going to have to go. I doubt he lasts 48 hours…

Tanenbaum cannot allow Manning and Curtis to do anything other than an interim hire here.

Does Mr. Dichio do a solid for the Reds, taking on that interim title ? Outside of Jon Conway Armas hired this staff. Not sure what it says about Jon that he was the only member of Greg’s staff not to follow him to LA.

Auzzy
06-27-2021, 12:24 AM
Does Mr. Dichio do a solid for the Reds, taking on that interim title ? Outside of Jon Conway Armas hired this staff. Not sure what it says about Jon that he was the only member of Greg’s staff not to follow him to LA.

I think Dichio would be a good interim, because he has made it clear he doesn't want to be a permanent TFC senior team coach. Problem is, he might not even be interested in an interim role.

Kamp Berg
06-27-2021, 08:51 AM
I'm concerned that Manning may just be a small-market guy and not the right one for the (theoretic) ambitions of MLSE and the broadcasters.

Maybe promote him to head of in-game experience and stadium ops and get somebody else to deal with the sports side. :D

This sounds like the best compromise available. Manning gets to save face and continue working for the organization, while someone who is able to make better personnel choices can take over as president and clean house where necessary. It would at least allow MLSE to act like they are maintaining continuity.

ensco
06-27-2021, 09:45 AM
I am super concerned about Friesdaal (not sure how you spell his name, that's how invisible he is) and MLSE/Bogers.

These guys have approved spending but otherwise been absentee, and that catches up with you. You cannot be a non-entity like Friisdahl is. Tanenbaum is a figurehead, he is a minority shareholder only. People don’t know who is in charge.

Do a search on Friisdahl and all you find is a bunch of charity stuff and the fact that he just became a board member of SAS, the Scandinavian airline. That is a big commitment,and it sounds like fun if you are Friisdahl (obviously that is what Friisdahl cares about, he came from Air Canada). But what do you suppose Masai Ujiri, who only cares about being all-in on championships, makes of his boss' interests and priorities…..?

The Masai situation, which has become extremely bizarre, is the evidence that something is seriously wrong. For the Raps FO, this is the most important month of the year, and they are going into their biggest draft in at least a decade …. and don’t know what their front office is or will be. Masai knows all this. But he won’t sign. Why is this happening?

Vanney's departure also may have had more to it along these lines.

Money is not the issue. It's leadership that is the issue.

spe18
06-27-2021, 10:30 AM
I'm concerned that Manning may just be a small-market guy and not the right one for the (theoretic) ambitions of MLSE and the broadcasters.

Maybe promote him to head of in-game experience and stadium ops and get somebody else to deal with the sports side. :D


This sounds like the best compromise available. Manning gets to save face and continue working for the organization, while someone who is able to make better personnel choices can take over as president and clean house where necessary. It would at least allow MLSE to act like they are maintaining continuity.

A great suggestion, but the problem I see is that any other job title other then "president", I have a feeling would be considered to be a "demotion". Is that something that Manning would be interested in?

Kamp Berg
06-27-2021, 10:31 AM
I am super concerned about Friesdaal (not sure how you spell his name, that's how invisible he is) and MLSE/Bogers.

These guys have approved spending but otherwise been absentee, and that catches up with you. You cannot be a non-entity like Friisdahl is. Tanenbaum is a figurehead, he is a minority shareholder only. People don’t know who is in charge.

Do a search on Friisdahl and all you find is a bunch of charity stuff and the fact that he just became a board member of SAS, the Scandinavian airline. That is a big commitment,and it sounds like fun if you are Friisdahl (obviously that is what Friisdahl cares about, he came from Air Canada). But what do you suppose Masai Ujiri, who only cares about being all-in on championships, makes of his boss' interests and priorities…..?

The Masai situation, which has become extremely bizarre, is the evidence that something is seriously wrong. For the Raps FO, this is the most important month of the year, and they are going into their biggest draft in at least a decade …. and don’t know what their front office is or will be. Masai knows all this. But he won’t sign. Why is this happening?

Vanney's departure also may have had more to it along these lines.

Money is not the issue. It's leadership that is the issue.

It seems like the board has bought into the mentality that MLSE should be run like a regular business, instead of a sports conglomerate.

spe18
06-27-2021, 10:45 AM
The Masai situation, which has become extremely bizarre, is the evidence that something is seriously wrong. For the Raps FO, this is the most important month of the year, and they are going into their biggest draft in at least a decade …. and don’t know what their front office is or will be. Masai knows all this. But he won’t sign. Why is this happening?



Ohhh....what's going on there? I actually don't follow basketball (or for that matter, any sport other then soccer), except for the Raps championship run, so I have no idea :).

But wouldn't it be their GM making the decision, in consultation with their coach and/or president, and other technical staff? Or do they not have a GM at this time?

ensco
06-27-2021, 11:02 AM
Ohhh....what's going on there? I actually don't follow basketball (or for that matter, any sport other then soccer), except for the Raps championship run, so I have no idea :).

But wouldn't it be their GM making the decision, in consultation with their coach and/or president, and other technical staff? Or do they not have a GM at this time?

Masai is President and is out of contract and hasn't re-signed (or left, or been terminated). He has tons of options, he is highly regarded and just built a championship team. Money is no object, MLSE has made that clear. The GM and everyone else in the FO was signed/recruited by Masai. Same for most of the players.

It is an unprecedented situation in all of sports, really, and doubly so because Masai is so widely respected.

spe18
06-27-2021, 12:06 PM
Masai is President and is out of contract and hasn't re-signed (or left, or been terminated). He has tons of options, he is highly regarded and just built a championship team. Money is no object, MLSE has made that clear. The GM and everyone else in the FO was signed/recruited by Masai. Same for most of the players.

It is an unprecedented situation in all of sports, really, and doubly so because Masai is so widely respected.

I see. So I guess what we're saying is that if they can't get their act together with the basketball team, which is far more valuable to MLSE, then I suspect that you're not going to get it together on the soccer team either.

jloome
06-27-2021, 01:32 PM
Masai is President and is out of contract and hasn't re-signed (or left, or been terminated). He has tons of options, he is highly regarded and just built a championship team. Money is no object, MLSE has made that clear. The GM and everyone else in the FO was signed/recruited by Masai. Same for most of the players.

It is an unprecedented situation in all of sports, really, and doubly so because Masai is so widely respected.

I wonder what they offered Vanney. I have zero faith that Curtis and Manning recognized his value.

Galaxy won again yesterday. Only two losses, Chicarito leading the league in scoring …

Losing him and Bez was truly shortsighted.

Auzzy
06-27-2021, 02:25 PM
This sounds like the best compromise available. Manning gets to save face and continue working for the organization, while someone who is able to make better personnel choices can take over as president and clean house where necessary. It would at least allow MLSE to act like they are maintaining continuity.


A great suggestion, but the problem I see is that any other job title other then "president", I have a feeling would be considered to be a "demotion". Is that something that Manning would be interested in?

Guys my comment was meant as a joke, hence the smiley. OgtheDim felt that game-day experience & similar things had improved under Manning, so I joked to put him in charge of only those things.

OgtheDim
06-27-2021, 03:04 PM
I still think Vanney left because of what LAG was to him in the past, what it would be like to rebuild something & just to be near extended family.

TFC could have throw 5 million at him & I think Vanney still would have gone.

noimpactinmtl
06-27-2021, 03:22 PM
I wonder what they offered Vanney. I have zero faith that Curtis and Manning recognized his value.

Galaxy won again yesterday. Only two losses, Chicarito leading the league in scoring …

Losing him and Bez was truly shortsighted.

Both Bez and Vanney left for the same reasons. They had a chance to save their teams. In Bez’s chance, it’s a chance to build a new stadium and bring trophies to his hometown. Vanney has an opportunity to turn perennial lolcows in LA Galaxy back into their glorious past.

Bezbatchenko is pretty much all but assured of a statue at New Crew Stadium, while Vanney is proving that he is one of the best coaches in MLS.

These are things we have no hope of ever matching, much like the Islanders to Tavares.

Kamp Berg
06-27-2021, 04:41 PM
Guys my comment was meant as a joke, hence the smiley. OgtheDim felt that game-day experience & similar things had improved under Manning, so I joked to put him in charge of only those things.

I’m ready to embrace anything that gets him out of office 😂

MightyDM
06-27-2021, 05:42 PM
We have 5 points. New England has 23.

Smokecell
06-27-2021, 08:21 PM
So Armas is going to have to go. I doubt he lasts 48 hours…

Tanenbaum cannot allow Manning and Curtis to do anything other than an interim hire here.

24 down, 24 to go. Let’s hope you are right

ag futbol
06-27-2021, 09:14 PM
Both Bez and Vanney left for the same reasons. They had a chance to save their teams. In Bez’s chance, it’s a chance to build a new stadium and bring trophies to his hometown. Vanney has an opportunity to turn perennial lolcows in LA Galaxy back into their glorious past.

Bezbatchenko is pretty much all but assured of a statue at New Crew Stadium, while Vanney is proving that he is one of the best coaches in MLS.

These are things we have no hope of ever matching, much like the Islanders to Tavares.
You might be right in each case. But then again, if the machine is well-oiled and running to its potential, taking these sorts of moves are at best a lateral. I’ll speculate that if Bill and Ali were better people to work for, there might have been a bit more staying power.

FootBallAZ
06-28-2021, 08:47 AM
ill say this, it seems like it all started with jozy's contract being played out with 1 year left- manning seemed to impose his north american negotations( where in hockey, bball) they wait until contract is at the end.

In the whole world, most players get settled with 1 year left-

He has been reactive more than proactive.

Yes Poz was nice( still a laughing matter how it was handled)


Still havent replaced both seba and victor yet.

Hasnt made any moves for youth goalie.
no moves for a CB- which we all knew was needed ( even with Omar- we all knew he was way too slow)


so we all see this- and they want to make us feel dumb saying things like

2 weeks,
borre


You can see the arrogance on his face like he was the main factor in TFC's success.

Man up, step down, move on.

Oldtimer
06-28-2021, 08:48 AM
Tanenbaum is a figurehead, he is a minority shareholder only. People don’t know who is in charge.


I agree with a lot of your takes, ensco, but I can't agree with you on this statement, it's a bit too extreme a characterization.

He is a minority shareholder, and he has a lot less power than he have be if Bell and Rogers were less chummy and he was the "tie-breaker" in board votes. It seems like Bell and Rogers disagree on almost nothing. However, Bell and Rogers have pretty well agreed to let him be the representative of MLSE's ownership, he sits on the important league boards of various sports as a part-owner, including the MLS Board of Governors. He has real decision-making power in those roles, he's not just a figurehead.

As far as the team goes, for decisions like DP hires, player budget, etc. I think all three entities (Bell, Rogers, Larry T) have to be in agreement. However, if Larry T wanted to ditch Manning, he would probably get his way. Manning knows this, so there is real accountability there.

MightyDM
06-28-2021, 01:59 PM
I agree with a lot of your takes, ensco, but I can't agree with you on this statement, it's a bit too extreme a characterization.

He is a minority shareholder, and he has a lot less power than he have be if Bell and Rogers were less chummy and he was the "tie-breaker" in board votes. It seems like Bell and Rogers disagree on almost nothing. However, Bell and Rogers have pretty well agreed to let him be the representative of MLSE's ownership, he sits on the important league boards of various sports as a part-owner, including the MLS Board of Governors. He has real decision-making power in those roles, he's not just a figurehead.

As far as the team goes, for decisions like DP hires, player budget, etc. I think all three entities (Bell, Rogers, Larry T) have to be in agreement. However, if Larry T wanted to ditch Manning, he would probably get his way. Manning knows this, so there is real accountability there.

The interesting one was Tim L. He was a big challenge to Larry T’s authority. Given his bold vision and personal stature. The fact that he didn’t last but Larry did, tells you what you need to know. Also, for a long time He (Tanenbaum) was actually the balance of power - it’s how he doubled his stake when Teachers sold to Bell/Rodgers

Ultra & Proud
06-29-2021, 11:03 AM
Not sure who's idea it was to play in Orlando, I assume Manning, but it probably was a bad move. I think Hartford would have been a better spot. First problem is sharing a facility with a team we already played twice and the weather isn't suitable for the conditioning of our players. I knew that would be a problem as soon as it was announced. I know this was the choice of the players because of lifestyle but maybe with a new (no) system we should have bunkered down in a more remote area with less distractions.

ensco
07-04-2021, 08:27 AM
We are at the fork in the road that is the riddle of supporter life. Fair weather fans drive a lot more change than the hardcores (who are mostly taken for granted, because of their loyalty).

Leiweke was a radical solution, born of real failure of all the teams. But now that it's really just TFC failing, the mindset of the bosses will govern what happens here. Which means nothing good, I am afraid.

We are yelling into the void, I am afraid. Even before you factor in the pandemic.

__________


Bell and Rogers are the control shareholders. Our CEO came from Mapleflot (oh excuse me, others call it Air Canada).

All everybody involved thinks/knows is monopolies.

Plus there is a particular problem here. There is only one team that survives endless failure/mediocrity. Being in the same entity as the Leafs is poison, it affects in a bad way everyone involved, it makes them think fan bases are all blind idiots.

MightyDM
07-04-2021, 10:29 AM
If they don’t clean house my seats will be empty for the first game back. I think Ensco is right. Seeing empty seats is all they will understand. Might cancel TSN after the Euro final too and tell them it is because TFC is a disaster

Oldtimer
07-04-2021, 11:16 AM
MLSE won't be happy if TFC misses the playoffs. Bell and Rogers need CONTENT. It's not like when the Teachers Pension Plan owned them.

Likely thing, board will start asking Manning some questions when TFC misses the playoffs. Zero chance they change who is President.

MightyDM
07-04-2021, 12:47 PM
MLSE won't be happy if TFC misses the playoffs. Bell and Rogers need CONTENT. It's not like when the Teachers Pension Plan owned them.

Likely thing, board will start asking Manning some questions when TFC misses the playoffs. Zero chance they change who is President.

True re content. And I agree that Manning likely isn’t gone. But he should be. The clubs communications are appalling - they treat us like we are ignorant about soccer even though most of us have played, coached, volunteered, etc. They needed a CB far more than Soteldo. And a coach more than either. All of these things in the end are down to his leadership choices.

69Chevy396
07-04-2021, 01:16 PM
True re content. And I agree that Manning likely isn’t gone. But he should be. The clubs communications are appalling - they treat us like we are ignorant about soccer even though most of us have played, coached, volunteered, etc. They needed a CB far more than Soteldo. And a coach more than either. All of these things in the end are down to his leadership choices.

Hubris has been hard at work in the halls of MLSE, where every executive thinks he is an expert because he was once assistant coach of his kids house league hockey or soccer club. Dale Lastman may be a good lawyer, but he was a lousy ball hockey player (believe me, I know).

ag futbol
07-04-2021, 01:42 PM
We are at the fork in the road that is the riddle of supporter life. Fair weather fans drive a lot more change than the hardcores (who are mostly taken for granted, because of their loyalty).

Leiweke was a radical solution, born of real failure of all the teams. But now that it's really just TFC failing, the mindset of the bosses will govern what happens here. Which means nothing good, I am afraid.

We are yelling into the void, I am afraid. Even before you factor in the pandemic.

Is the overlooked but interesting observation here that the Argos are a tire-fire too? To be fair, they had a lot of issues that pre-date Manning but he certainly hasn’t righted the ship.

I hope whatever extension they gave him, it was a short one. But my gut tells me we are back to having sleepy corporate governance from people who really don’t understand how this team is supposed to work.

This is the core issue here throughout TFC’s history. We got lucky on account of accidentally having appointed a president who was given a long leash and had an actual vision. Now we’re back to having a bunch of corporate lizards who probably make great PowerPoint presentations but are useless when it comes to achieving things.

But again, the issue is the board is useless. Curtis and Manning should never have been hired. They are b-minus executives at best.

ensco
07-05-2021, 06:53 AM
I agree with a lot of your takes, ensco, but I can't agree with you on this statement, it's a bit too extreme a characterization.

He is a minority shareholder, and he has a lot less power than he have be if Bell and Rogers were less chummy and he was the "tie-breaker" in board votes. It seems like Bell and Rogers disagree on almost nothing. However, Bell and Rogers have pretty well agreed to let him be the representative of MLSE's ownership, he sits on the important league boards of various sports as a part-owner, including the MLS Board of Governors. He has real decision-making power in those roles, he's not just a figurehead.

As far as the team goes, for decisions like DP hires, player budget, etc. I think all three entities (Bell, Rogers, Larry T) have to be in agreement. However, if Larry T wanted to ditch Manning, he would probably get his way. Manning knows this, so there is real accountability there.

I think you are right that calling him just a figurehead is unfair. But he is often a figurehead, how often is not known.

This is a corporate structure, a Chairman has limited day to day influence. If Bogers are letting Tanenbaum have operational influence, ie calling the shots on Manning, that would be a breakdown.

I think the bigger question is, what does Friisdahl do all day? How can it be that we literally never see or hear from the guy? He runs all the sports teams in this community… god the papers are awful here. They deserve to lose all their readers. You think the President of MSGin NY would just get ignored like this?

Friisdahl is Manning's actual boss. It would or should have been Friisdahl's decision/recommendation to extend Manning. If it wasn’t, that is worth knowing.

Perhaps we will learn some things as the Masai situation resolves…

Auzzy
07-05-2021, 01:25 PM
Is the overlooked but interesting observation here that the Argos are a tire-fire too? To be fair, they had a lot of issues that pre-date Manning but he certainly hasn’t righted the ship.

I hope whatever extension they gave him, it was a short one. But my gut tells me we are back to having sleepy corporate governance from people who really don’t understand how this team is supposed to work.

This is the core issue here throughout TFC’s history. We got lucky on account of accidentally having appointed a president who was given a long leash and had an actual vision. Now we’re back to having a bunch of corporate lizards who probably make great PowerPoint presentations but are useless when it comes to achieving things.

But again, the issue is the board is useless. Curtis and Manning should never have been hired. They are b-minus executives at best.

Manning was given a five year extension.

DinamoTFC
07-05-2021, 02:18 PM
Manning is the least of our problems imo.
I think we are grouping him with Ali too much. I personally like him, I like how direct he his with his answers, speaks with information, got pissed in the presser and took control and has the resume to back it up. I'll definitely give him a chance even if he made a mistake or two because I feel he can learn from it.
Ali on the other hand hasn't proved anything to me...

Oldtimer
07-05-2021, 02:38 PM
Manning's fault was trusting Curtis too much (and maybe for hiring him in the first place). He won't let that happen again. I don't believe Manning is going anywhere, neither should he. Every team president is entitled to at least one mistake.

reggie
07-05-2021, 04:20 PM
im shocked manning went along with the armas signing.im sure he was not too happy about going to the board and asking to pay off the rest of his contract after 15 games,and jozy getting paid to stay home,im sure ali is on a short leash and bill will be front and center on a new gaffer

ensco
07-05-2021, 04:33 PM
Manning's fault was trusting Curtis too much (and maybe for hiring him in the first place). He won't let that happen again. I don't believe Manning is going anywhere, neither should he. Every team president is entitled to at least one mistake.

He has made two bug mistakes. He owns the whole way Giovinco/Altidore were handled in 2018/2019.

He also has a major success (not wrecking what Leiweke built, which would have been easy).

Overall he is on pretty thin ice, for me.

Rodgesico
07-05-2021, 08:16 PM
There a couple things that are puzzling to me relating to the press conference on Sunday.

Manning's opening statement was only about 25 seconds long and it didn't give any indication of how they as leadership will move forward. Neither Manning or Curtis talked about who would be interm manager, if any other staff were let go or that the team was coming back to Toronto on Thursday.


It took 11.5 minutes until John Molinario asked the staff question to find out who would be on the field with the players as coach.


I can't understand why Manning or Curtis would not want to steer the agenda by providing that information or why it took 11.5 minutes for a journalist to ask. It took 23 minutes to talk about coming back to Toronto and no details were given until a follow up question was asked later.


Does anyone else have thoughts on this?


I am not sure but until the question was asked about interm manager by Molinaro I don't think it was official public knowledge. I know Molinaro tweeted it at 4:14 PM which is consistent with the presser questioning timeline.


It must have been a deliberate choice not to give the information in the initial statement. I don't think someone who (to roughly quote Manning from the press conference) has been in MLS for 16 years, has been to 5 MLS cups, been to 7 conference finals, 12 playoffs, missed playoffs only 3 times, worked with 4 GM's and 4 head coaches coaches would forget to let the world know the short term path forward.


Could they? Am I being naive about this?

stevep
07-06-2021, 08:44 AM
If I could speak to Manning one on one this is what I would say to him
https://youtu.be/vWCGs27_xPI

Kamp Berg
07-06-2021, 09:39 AM
If I could speak to Manning one on one this is what I would say to him
https://youtu.be/vWCGs27_xPI

Perfect 👌🏻 🤣

jabbronies
07-06-2021, 10:05 AM
He has made two bug mistakes. He owns the whole way Giovinco/Altidore were handled in 2018/2019.

He also has a major success (not wrecking what Leiweke built, which would have been easy).

Overall he is on pretty thin ice, for me.

Did he mismanage the Gio situation? He didn't want to pay top dollar for an aging star. He then used that Gio money and got another MLS MVP. A younger one that took us to an MLS Cup Final.

The Jozy thing - yes was mismanaged.

jabbronies
07-06-2021, 10:12 AM
Manning's opening statement was only about 25 seconds long and it didn't give any indication of how they as leadership will move forward. Neither Manning or Curtis talked about who would be interm manager, if any other staff were let go or that the team was coming back to Toronto on Thursday.


I don't think Manning was expecting things to be this bad. They didn't have another option in their pocket for manager like they did when Ryan Nelsen was let go. The only thing Manning knew was that this path wasn't working and it had to stop before it got worse/permanent damage was done

To be honest, I don't think there were many good candidates available when Vanney resigned.

I mean realistically who did they miss out on who could manage this clubs style and approach? and please don't name any big league EPL, Serie A etc managers (and yes, Crystal Palace is a better job than TFC)

And if there are guys out there who do fit the mold - did TFC exert too much control for those managers liking and scared those guys off?

Rodgesico
07-06-2021, 10:44 AM
^ I guess my issue is not really with the choices made but with the lack of information being presented.

Manning basically said we had to let Armas go, he is a great guy, we need to move on and left it up to the reporters to dig for questions and answers.

To me the press conference was either a missed opportunity to present the short term solutions or a deliberate attempt to avoid presenting a plan.

These guys are just incredibly frustrating to listen to.

Bushmancan
07-06-2021, 11:05 AM
^ I guess my issue is not really with the choices made but with the lack of information being presented.

Manning basically said we had to let Armas go, he is a great guy, we need to move on and left it up to the reporters to dig for questions and answers.

To me the press conference was either a missed opportunity to present the short term solutions or a deliberate attempt to avoid presenting a plan.

These guys are just incredibly frustrating to listen to.


Yes, their PR and messaging is extremely poor, it is even ok to say occasionally we don't know but dammit we will get a solution and then deliver.

But this two weeks bullshit is exactly that. Talk is cheap, didn't someone say that once.

Oldtimer
07-06-2021, 01:09 PM
Look at it as a hastily assembled news conference after they realized they couldn't give the current guy any more time to turn it around.

Thrillos
07-06-2021, 02:59 PM
My take is that Manning had left Curtis to do his job since hiring him, as he should have. The fact that Manning had to join the press conference at all shows how much his trust in Curtis has plummeted. Curtis should have had a better idea of an interim by now as well, and he was clearly arrogant or has an inability to prepare for anything other than his plan A.

I think the lack of preparation for the press conference is on Curtis. My guess is Manning called Curtis that day and told him to fire Armas or he was going to fire them both. Obviously didn't feel like he could leave Curtis to handle the press conference on his own. I think it is actually smart not to call Perez the interim as this gives Perez and Curtis/Manning the ability to name him interim if he turns it around, or name an interim if he isn't able to. Maybe they didn't do that on purpose, but if it was me that is what I would have done.

MightyDM
07-06-2021, 03:34 PM
There a couple things that are puzzling to me relating to the press conference on Sunday.

Manning's opening statement was only about 25 seconds long and it didn't give any indication of how they as leadership will move forward. Neither Manning or Curtis talked about who would be interm manager, if any other staff were let go or that the team was coming back to Toronto on Thursday.


It took 11.5 minutes until John Molinario asked the staff question to find out who would be on the field with the players as coach.


I can't understand why Manning or Curtis would not want to steer the agenda by providing that information or why it took 11.5 minutes for a journalist to ask. It took 23 minutes to talk about coming back to Toronto and no details were given until a follow up question was asked later.


Does anyone else have thoughts on this?


I am not sure but until the question was asked about interm manager by Molinaro I don't think it was official public knowledge. I know Molinaro tweeted it at 4:14 PM which is consistent with the presser questioning timeline.


It must have been a deliberate choice not to give the information in the initial statement. I don't think someone who (to roughly quote Manning from the press conference) has been in MLS for 16 years, has been to 5 MLS cups, been to 7 conference finals, 12 playoffs, missed playoffs only 3 times, worked with 4 GM's and 4 head coaches coaches would forget to let the world know the short term path forward.


Could they? Am I being naive about this?

I agree with you. It was very odd indeed. Normally you'd make the statement first.

MightyDM
07-06-2021, 03:37 PM
Look at it as a hastily assembled news conference after they realized they couldn't give the current guy any more time to turn it around.

They must have no PR advice. Its pretty basic to say "we fired the coach this morning. he took it with class. we are considering options for an interim but in the meantime javie Perez will be coach. We are confident in Javier who has a strong background from Real Madrid, USMNT and NYCFC, and his UEFA A licence"

ag futbol
07-06-2021, 04:13 PM
They must have no PR advice. Its pretty basic to say "we fired the coach this morning. he took it with class. we are considering options for an interim but in the meantime javie Perez will be coach. We are confident in Javier who has a strong background from Real Madrid, USMNT and NYCFC, and his UEFA A licence"
Well exactly.

I don’t think it’s over-blowing it to say they did themselves a major disservice with that presser on the weekend. Your results are through the floor and you’re firing a guy you just hired a few months ago after a prolonged search. You hesitated getting rid of him to the point where the results were so farcical you were basically forced to step in. Unmitigated disaster.

The surface level thing is dousing the fire and buying yourself some breathing room with fans and the press. Underneath that, you have to sell your credibility to those in the organization and potential hires.

Can you imagine being a potential coaching candidate and seeing the guys who could be your bosses hastily and incoherently explain what happened here and what the plan was? I wouldn’t answer the phone if they called.

Ultra & Proud
07-06-2021, 05:42 PM
Can you imagine being a potential coaching candidate and seeing the guys who could be your bosses hastily and incoherently explain what happened here and what the plan was? I wouldn’t answer the phone if they called.

I would. If they will give a completely out of his depth boob this much time then even someone mediocre would be given a lot of leeway to implement their system. Thing is a smart manager would have looked at the squad, listened to what Curtis wanted, and then told him it's not feasible but "this idea" is. That's where they are now and now Curtis has learned via trial by fire. Next guy gets to do things his way like Vanney did.

Rodgesico
07-06-2021, 05:45 PM
The surface level thing is dousing the fire and buying yourself some breathing room with fans and the press. Underneath that, you have to sell your credibility to those in the organization and potential hires.


This is how I would think about the situation also.

Everyone had a feeling a change was coming, they must have been atleast thinking of contingencies for a week or more. I can't see any excuse why they could not have handled that press conference better.

The press conference is a huge red flag.

Kamp Berg
07-06-2021, 07:46 PM
I would. If they will give a completely out of his depth boob this much time then even someone mediocre would be given a lot of leeway to implement their system. Thing is a smart manager would have looked at the squad, listened to what Curtis wanted, and then told him it's not feasible but "this idea" is. That's where they are now and now Curtis has learned via trial by fire. Next guy gets to do things his way like Vanney did.

I’m sure Curtis had a 1000 page plan he was
Implementing, Manning probably burned it on Sunday 🤣

ensco
07-06-2021, 08:02 PM
Did he mismanage the Gio situation? He didn't want to pay top dollar for an aging star. He then used that Gio money and got another MLS MVP. A younger one that took us to an MLS Cup Final.

The Jozy thing - yes was mismanaged.

I posted about this a lot at the time. You don't let elite players with options get inside 18 months of contract expiry without understanding that it's unstable and that all hell will inevitably break loose.

ensco
07-06-2021, 08:45 PM
In my opinion the handling of Perez could be a sign that Manning has not managed Friisdahl/Tanenbaum/TFC Board on this.

He may not have in reality (whatever his contract may say) the “authority” to just appoint a new manager, and he may not have socialized this it all. Coaches don’t ever get fired after three months in the other MLSE sports.

That is one explanation for the weird tap dance.

Ultra & Proud
07-06-2021, 09:39 PM
In my opinion the handling of Perez could be a sign that Manning has not managed Friisdahl/Tanenbaum/TFC Board on this.

He may not have in reality (whatever his contract may say) the “authority” to just appoint a new manager, and he may not have socialized this it all. Coaches don’t ever get fired after three months in the other MLSE sports.

That is one explanation for the weird tap dance.
He probably does have that authority. Should be a standard part of his duties however, doing a mis-hire to the catastrophic level of Armas will undoubtedly cause some waves. First embarrassment, second the financial hit of the Armas contract for nothing, and last explaining who thought changing a successful style that got us within a game of the shield needed to be changed so abruptly. That hiring was as much of an abject failure as you'll ever see. Even De Boer was better.

jloome
07-07-2021, 12:30 AM
I figure this is where Manning makes his MLS career bones. He's had some success at other places but often walking into sweetheart deals, like here.

Now, he has to fix this. He has to nail the manager hire, realizing it's easier to find front office guys who can pull the right strings than it is a tactician who can guide a roomful of athletic egos to victory. He has to weigh how long Curtis has, as any manager coming in has to like him. That won't happen unless he fixes the roster, which is tough.

So he probably has to find a coach and a manager or someone who can do both roles along with a director of operations.

There are some decent guys out there, guys who've won a few games. He needs this to be someone who has cachet, but also appears a savvy buy, as well as a consistent producer of winning teams.

Anyone matching that description isn't going to brook a lot of interference from Ali.

Curtis is going to have to bring the roster into competitive shape in record time. Any new manager is going to use their early muscle to demand it.

ag futbol
07-07-2021, 08:48 AM
Curtis is going to have to bring the roster into competitive shape in record time. Any new manager is going to use their early muscle to demand it.
And this is where I get concerned.

His hit rate of capable players vs. duds generally seems okay. But he does a poor job of assessing what the team’s most pressing needs are. And we all have seen the issues with timeliness and negotiations.

To me he’s more of a talent scout than a full GM.

Oldtimer
07-07-2021, 09:31 AM
He probably does have that authority. Should be a standard part of his duties however, doing a mis-hire to the catastrophic level of Armas will undoubtedly cause some waves. First embarrassment, second the financial hit of the Armas contract for nothing, and last explaining who thought changing a successful style that got us within a game of the shield needed to be changed so abruptly. That hiring was as much of an abject failure as you'll ever see. Even De Boer was better.

The simple fact is that Curtis hired his friend, despite the style being unsuitable. Manning trusted Curtis, but that trust is now gone after such a horrible fiasco. Manning has a lot of capital based on his history, but he knows that things need to go right for TFC. His reputation depends on it.

Kamp Berg
07-07-2021, 12:19 PM
The simple fact is that Curtis hired his friend, despite the style being unsuitable. Manning trusted Curtis, but that trust is now gone after such a horrible fiasco. Manning has a lot of capital based on his history, but he knows that things need to go right for TFC. His reputation depends on it.

I can’t help but wonder if Manning has the ability to hire someone that can steer a club through change or is his only plan to preach stability? Manning has always done well stepping into situations where stability makes sense, that has no bearing on how well he navigates change.

ensco
07-07-2021, 01:20 PM
I am catching up here but I don’t buy the narrative that has emerged that Armas was 100% Curtis' hire. Like, I don’t buy it whatsoever. Manning knew Armas but even if he didn’t…sorry, he owns it too.

All of it.

It's Manning's responsibility to see that this level of decision is done right. NFW does he get to pretend otherwise, with clever body language.

He hired Curtis. You buy the ticket, you take the ride.

I get that something was very off in that press conference but I would be very careful jumping to conclusions based on body language.

Manning's a survivor.

jloome
07-07-2021, 01:51 PM
I am catching up here but I don’t buy the narrative that has emerged that Armas was 100% Curtis' hire. Like, I don’t buy it whatsoever. Manning knew Armas but even if he didn’t…sorry, he owns it too.

All of it.

It's Manning's responsibility to see that this level of decision is done right. NFW does he get to pretend otherwise, with clever body language.

He hired Curtis. You buy the ticket, you take the ride.

I get that something was very off in that press conference but I would be very careful jumping to conclusions based on body language.

Manning's a survivor.

yeah good points. He’s going to be pushing for a visible separation, as he played with Armas too.

Other people who have think he’ll be a great coach someday. Calen Carr went into his leadership skills a little on Extratime.

I’m not sure he’s tactically bright enough, although it’s hard to say. He may have agreed to too much just to get the job, set himself up for failure with a system that he knew was a square peg.

Ultra & Proud
07-07-2021, 02:50 PM
I can’t help but wonder if Manning has the ability to hire someone that can steer a club through change or is his only plan to preach stability? Manning has always done well stepping into situations where stability makes sense, that has no bearing on how well he navigates change.
Not sure why there's this sudden necessity for change with our FO. It's not like our system got passed by in the modern game. Yes we moved too slow under Vanney, sure we operated more horizontal than vertical, and obviously we weren't in good enough shape to run, run, run but those are minor things to adjust. Never understood the need for a full and total overhaul of something that was working just fine unless it's just to pad some certain egos so any success would be "mine" instead of Vanney's in any way.

So I hope Manning's survival instinct and previous history steers him more to tweaking what we have rather than doing another stupid and reckless rebuild.

jabbronies
07-07-2021, 03:14 PM
I am catching up here but I don’t buy the narrative that has emerged that Armas was 100% Curtis' hire. Like, I don’t buy it whatsoever. Manning knew Armas but even if he didn’t…sorry, he owns it too.

All of it.

It's Manning's responsibility to see that this level of decision is done right. NFW does he get to pretend otherwise, with clever body language.

He hired Curtis. You buy the ticket, you take the ride.

I get that something was very off in that press conference but I would be very careful jumping to conclusions based on body language.

Manning's a survivor.

C'mon man, obviously it wasn't a blind hire. That's not what's being said.

What's being said is Curtis was given the ability to weigh heavier / take the lead on the hire and was able to convince Manning that this was the right approach. And like a good leader, Manning trusted his employee and went along for the ride.

Curtis obviously thinks highly in Armas and I believe he still thinks with time? transfer windows? being at home? all 3? that Armas vision, one that was clearly conceived at NYRB, could have come to fruition.

portu
07-07-2021, 03:45 PM
I wonder if the next hire won’t be long term because the board hasn’t allowed Manning and Curtis to make a full time hire.

ag futbol
07-07-2021, 04:54 PM
I wonder if the next hire won’t be long term because the board hasn’t allowed Manning and Curtis to make a full time hire.
It’s a fair question.

There seems to be some debate as to whether Curtis and / or Manning have the authority to hire the coach on their own without approaching the board.

I would suspect previously it required approval but probably didn’t receive a lot of scrutiny. It is a pretty key hire and if the board isn’t going to sign off on an item like that (at least in passing) I almost wonder if they do a much of anything at all.

This time out, whatever they propose is going to be receive a lot more scrutiny. And their initial proposal might also be tailored by more specific direction by the board (“experienced coach meeting these criteria”).

Basically, they’re on a short leash

noxx98
07-12-2021, 11:39 AM
https://twitter.com/joshuakloke/status/1414621787212627976

Based on it being Manning reaching out to Jozy, I get the sense that Manning had given Curtis/Armas the freedom to make decisions but has since stepped in and taken over to try and fix things given how things have gone so far this season. Manning also apparently reached out to Jozy nearly a week before Armas was fired.

Ultra & Proud
07-12-2021, 12:28 PM
It’s a fair question.

There seems to be some debate as to whether Curtis and / or Manning have the authority to hire the coach on their own without approaching the board.

I would suspect previously it required approval but probably didn’t receive a lot of scrutiny. It is a pretty key hire and if the board isn’t going to sign off on an item like that (at least in passing) I almost wonder if they do a much of anything at all.

This time out, whatever they propose is going to be receive a lot more scrutiny. And their initial proposal might also be tailored by more specific direction by the board (“experienced coach meeting these criteria”).

Basically, they’re on a short leash

I think Manning's leash is a lot longer than Curtis' but I highly doubt Curtis will be making any major decisions on his own from here on. I think Manning knows "his" guy blew this last last hire and that plus waiting so long to make a change has hurt is reputation overall.

New manager will 100% be a Manning hire. Curtis might get to present some possible lower level player deals to Manning but I think final decision on all moves will be Manning now.

I wouldn't be surprised if Curtis is just a lame duck GM now only focusing on writing contracts and working the cap.

ensco
07-12-2021, 12:28 PM
It's pretty interesting that Manning didn’t tell Curtis to contact Jozy, but instead just went and did it himself.

This belongs in the Curtis evaluation thread. As evidence that he is done.

I am sure Curtis will feel that he had Manning's support in freezing Jozy, they discussed and agreed, blah blah yadda yadda.

Manning is a survivor, and he is running a survival master class here.

noxx98
07-12-2021, 12:31 PM
It's pretty interesting that Manning didn’t tell Curtis to contact Jozy, but instead just went and did it himself.

This belongs in the Curtis evaluation thread.

As evidence that he is done.
Almost need a TFC Management evaluation thread... Hard to talk about one without talking about the other.

Ultra & Proud
07-12-2021, 12:34 PM
Almost need a TFC Management evaluation thread... Hard to talk about one without talking about the other.
I think the separation between the two will become more and more evident as days go by. I don't think they were very close anyway besides Curtis being Manning's hire. His mistake was trusting his buddy not to screw everything up and now he has to step in and fix everything while Ali sports the dunce cap in the corner for a while. Like ensco said, I think Curtis is finished unless he is comfortable with collecting a cheque and doing pretty much nothing going forward. Although if Manning makes any errors along the way they will fall on Ali's head. Wouldn't surprise me if he quit at some point.

ag futbol
07-12-2021, 12:42 PM
Based on Davidson’s direct quote from Curtis, were we not supposed to receive clarification on the interim coach by today?

Talk about a way to hang your credibility publicly.

Ultra & Proud
07-12-2021, 12:47 PM
Based on Davidson’s direct quote from Curtis, were we not supposed to receive clarification on the interim coach by today?

Talk about a way to hang your credibility publicly.
Not the first time he will miss a deadline he was stupid enough to announce to the media. Or the last.

R.O.
07-12-2021, 04:13 PM
When Curtis was first hired, I thought he was a "Vanney" hire, as they were close or something. Does anybody remember that or did Vanney just go along with it?

Richard
07-12-2021, 04:16 PM
I think Manning's leash is a lot longer than Curtis' but I highly doubt Curtis will be making any major decisions on his own from here on. I think Manning knows "his" guy blew this last last hire and that plus waiting so long to make a change has hurt is reputation overall.

New manager will 100% be a Manning hire. Curtis might get to present some possible lower level player deals to Manning but I think final decision on all moves will be Manning now.

I wouldn't be surprised if Curtis is just a lame duck GM now only focusing on writing contracts and working the cap.

Regarding the bold part, this is what we should have in place from the beginning. Let the lawyer GM be the cap wizard, and leave the football manager in charge of player recruitment/tactics etc.

noxx98
07-12-2021, 04:17 PM
When Curtis was first hired, I thought he was a "Vanney" hire, as they were close or something. Does anybody remember that or did Vanney just go along with it?
When Curtis was hired, TFC said that Curtis was at the top of the list for both Vanney and Manning. Vanney spent the day with him and gave his stamp of approval on the hiring.
https://www.cbc.ca/sports/soccer/mls/ali-curtis-named-toronto-fc-general-manager-succeeding-tim-bezbatchenko-1.4964795

Initial B
07-12-2021, 05:04 PM
When Curtis was hired, TFC said that Curtis was at the top of the list for both Vanney and Manning. Vanney spent the day with him and gave his stamp of approval on the hiring.
https://www.cbc.ca/sports/soccer/mls/ali-curtis-named-toronto-fc-general-manager-succeeding-tim-bezbatchenko-1.4964795
I could see this, because Curtis can say the right things and comes across as cerebral, but appears to be lacking in the implementation and execution phases of player procurement. I think Vanney must have realized this early on and prepped himself for an exit.

ensco
07-12-2021, 05:26 PM
If you are ascribing meaning to what Bradley said postgame about Armas the day before Armas was canned, or what Vanney said about Curtis when he was hired… you have never worked in a company.

I am not saying that Bradley or Vanney are lying. I am saying they are doing their job.

There is simply no value to these statements, there cannot be. You support your boss' hire, no matter who you are or where you work.

FootBallAZ
07-14-2021, 12:29 PM
posting the same message in curtis ali thread for this one:


its on manning for fully listening and supporting Curtis prior to understanding what was happening.

Also no one brought up TFC social media team, they need to be let go for posting all those cringe worth posts recently.

Clearly this was directive of upper management with pictures of bono, bradley sound bite or mavinga's tweet.

OgtheDim
07-14-2021, 12:34 PM
Hate to tell you this but social media is not paid to reflect the pain of the fans - although every one of them I've interacted with in all sports do in person. That's not what social media for companies do.

FootBallAZ
07-14-2021, 12:54 PM
Hate to tell you this but social media is not paid to reflect the pain of the fans - although every one of them I've interacted with in all sports do in person. That's not what social media for companies do.


okay what i meant was, someone who was giving clear direction to the social media team should be let go....if that is curtis or manning.

we all saw thru those dumb posts.


The House is Burning- July 31- Rashad :)

OgtheDim
07-14-2021, 04:33 PM
FWIW, Manning is the centre face today - not unexpected.

This is a win for him.

Yuushalinsky
07-14-2021, 05:16 PM
Gotta give Manning some respect for basically using the loophole to get games going in Toronto.

ensco
07-14-2021, 07:10 PM
FWIW, Manning is the centre face today - not unexpected.

This is a win for him.

Yes agree.

If the feds don’t quietly demand his head from Bell and Roger’s for doing this, that is…

Bushmancan
07-14-2021, 07:47 PM
Yes agree.

If the feds don’t quietly demand his head from Bell and Roger’s for doing this, that is…

So wait the head of our country can put on a Habs jersey, let people watch a game of hockey in an enclosed arena and 20,000 clearly social distancing outside the Bell Centre (not) but TFC can’t host 7000 fans, most first responders, outside watching fully vaccinated teams.

Tell you what, giddy up and get your TFC shirt on PM. it’s an election year, don’t ya know.

ensco
07-14-2021, 08:46 PM
The more I think about this, the more I think this is a genius play by Manning. He has changed the channel with his bosses, who wants to talk about Armas or Curtis now?

Manning went and did what 90% of Canada's business elite want to do, which is to tell the feds to cut the politics, eff off, and stop with the nonsensical elements of the border restrictions. (It doesn’t hurt that the “science” is on Manning's side, not letting fully vaxxed Americans in is really a bit unfair and even offensive, if Americans are letting fully vaxxed Canadians in - even if the Canadian government rules are “popular” because the Canadian public is pretty anti-American, doesn’t care about fairness, and doesn’t understand the stats.)

None will be happier tonight than Friisdahl's friends at Air Canada, all of whom will be calling him in admiration and owe him drinks for this.

If it doesn’t work, and the feds force Manning out, so what? Manning isn’t Brendan Shanahan, what does he care what his rep is in Canada? He didn’t emigrate here, he is here to do a job and will leave when it's over. This way he wouldn’t go out for screwing up the team, he goes out in a blaze of glory, and will get big severance and have no trouble getting another similar gig in the US on the back of this.

I absolutely effing love this. What an operator. My respect for Manning has gone up 500% today.

Auzzy
07-14-2021, 08:54 PM
It's not clear that Manning did anything special. Only fully vaccinated players and staff will be allowed (for now). Apparently all MLS players have work permits for US and Canada anyway. Therefore a National Interest Exemption is not needed for these two games. In fact I read this from a Quebec journalist (translated): "Behind the scenes, I'm told the federal government wanted to pre-approve THE ENTIRE MLS plan (including for players who aren't fully vaccinated), but MLS surprised Ottawa by making the announcement today. #IMFC #CFMTL" (from @RomainSchue)

Probably one of the things that needed to be clarified was if Orlando and NYRB would be OK to play w/o unvaxed players (if they even have any of those).


The more I think about this, the more I think this is a genius play by Manning.

He has changed the channel with his bosses, who wants to talk about Armas or Curtis now? Manning went and did what 3/4 of Canada's business elite want to do, which is get Trudeau to cut the nonsense on the border restrictions. Not letting fully vaxxed Americans in is really quite galling, even if it's “popular” because the public doesn’t understand the stats.

None will be happier than Friisdahl's friends at Air Canada, all of whom will be calling him in admiration and owe him drinks for this.

If it doesn’t work, so what? Manning didn’t emigrate here, he is here to do a job and will leave when it's over. This way he wouldn’t go out for screwing up the team, he goes out in a blaze of glory, and will get big severance and have no trouble getting another gig on the back of this.

I absolutely effing love this. What an operator. My respect for Manning has gone up 500% today.

OgtheDim
07-14-2021, 08:54 PM
Its worked.


Manning took the July 5th NIE exemption for players with work permits for both countries, made sure players had that (4 Cinci players went earlier this week to NYC to get work permits), got the province to provide guidelines & ....its done.


https://twitter.com/JeffreyCarlisle/status/1415465067697479685


The only way this is an issue is if an individual doesn't have a work permit for Canada - nothing new in MLS.


Now, I suspect this is how it worked


a) MLSE works with feds & provinces to get guidelines in place & work for an exemption under NIE

b) Somebody under Manning but sure as hell Manning is going to take the credit, has worked out a plan B - work permits with the July 5 exemption - probably worked it all out since the July 5 exemption was announced because these guys have been very sure of themselves about all this going to happen

c) MLSE tells MLS "Get all players for these 3 games work permits. They should have them anyways but make sure of it"

d) Feds balk at NIE because would look bad 2 weeks before an election call - Trudeau went hard against opening up early today at a presser - they were NOT going to give an NIE

e) MLS implements plan B - "Ok, so, well we are going to go down this route for now & will work on the NIE in the future" (for the anti-vaxxers sake but probably ain't going to work all that hard)

f) MLS announces games go ahead (so not targeting just MLSE or Saputo)

g) Feds get an out "well, its approved already so...but we are working hard with them on this"

h) Impact & TFC gets games

i) Manning looks like a genius

ensco
07-14-2021, 09:22 PM
It's not clear that Manning did anything special.

It's not that Manning/TFC are breaking the law or something, it's the politics. TFC are sticking a finger in the eye of the feds by clearly and publicly end-running them and rushing them.

That is remarkable, something no other CEO in Canada has been willing to do.

jloome
07-25-2021, 04:09 PM
I predict Manning and Curtis are gone by the end of next season.

The roster and cap are an insufficient mess and Manning can’t blame Curtis without explaining why he didn’t notice any of this before the contract extension.

We don’t have the defensive depth to compete. Their one chance to salvage this is that Omar’s contract is almost up. So if they knock his replacement out of the park AND nail a pair of competitors at striker and centre back, the board will likely overlook disgruntled fans and no title runs.

But they’ve set the stage to need a bit of luck.

I wonder if Manning has typical suit sense and is arranging a sideways move.

His kid got a scholarship to Fordham so I imagine he’ll be leaving the youth setup.

ensco
07-25-2021, 04:49 PM
If only we had a cheap depth LB somewhere in the organization….

https://twitter.com/realsaltlake/status/1419138363534151687?s=21

Red CB Toronto
07-25-2021, 04:53 PM
If only we had a cheap depth LB somewhere in the organization….

https://twitter.com/realsaltlake/status/1419138363534151687?s=21

What a trooper, a survivor the Toronto native was with the Reds.

jloome
07-25-2021, 05:27 PM
Astonishingly that was his first start there in three seasons after starting 92 of 125 appearances with us…. And he saves the game.

So underrated.

PizzaEatingYeti
08-17-2021, 12:18 PM
No matter when Manning will fire Curtis (if ever...) IMHO until Manning is not gone from his position, TFC will be big time underachiever, if comparing the player salaries invested vs other MLS teams' player salaries, and even all organizational, facility, etc. expenses.

Manning is directly responsable for all the gross mismanagement of the funds invested by the MLSE board in this team, he hired his buddy Ali, he supervised closely (or at least should have) everything Ali did since he is here, and all aspects related to the good functioning of the team (again, at least should have).

So while all this forum is shitting on Ali (myself included), because he's done a disgraceful job here, I honestly believe Manning is on the same level or even more responsible with all the mismanagement happened with TFC in the last 3 years.

For the good of this team Manning needs to be gone ASAP, at least from his position, if he'll stay with the organization (we know that he is a corporate survivor).

The people above him, the executive board of MLSE always wanted the best for this team, opened the financial avenues to full success, but nobody from there had or will have probably any real footy knowledge... so a lot more often then not they are hiring the wrong "footy" people to lead the team.

They need to know how much Manning has mismanaged the funds trusted to him!
Right now maybe they do not know it, they think all it is because circumstances like Covid, bad luck, etc, you name it. It isn't.

I think latest in the last week of August at least 1,000 of you guys who reside in Canada and are real TFC supperters and fans (even better if SSH) should write a letter (yes, snail-mail) to the board of the MLSE about this.
I'm not a native English speaker, English is just my 3rd language, but a few of you guys should compose maybe 3-4 variants of short letters, and everyone just chose the version most liked, and then send their snail-mail with that, including of course all their contact info like physical address!

Something short and concise, beginning with like how much of a TFC supperter/fan you are, how long are you following the team, and how angry/discontent you are because how much Mannig mismanaged things (player salaries, contracts, even communication with fans!).
Is essential IMO to mention just about Manning, not even talk about Ali. Essential also to mention how much you apreciate the MLSE board doing everything possible financially for the team to succede.

You think if they get at least 1,000 letters like this (2,000 even better!) they would not care, and Manning will get a free ride for who knows how many more seasons?
I don't think so!

Maybe this is a hugely stupid idea, but maybe not!
If I would be in Canada I would organize guys to send these letters, but I know there are many many here who have the same opinion like me, and can start organizing this action!

SirBobSaget
08-22-2021, 10:26 PM
1) You have the former manager at 4th overall
2) Assistant (who should have been promised the manager position when Vanney refused to extend!!!!) in 4th with a budget squad, candidate for manager of the year.
3) Bez's squad is struggling this season but they won MLS Cup last year and are still in the running for a playoff spot.

So 3 formerly successful key figures who have gone on to continue being top performers have been replaced by absolute disasters that have sunk the franchise over time. All under the watch of Manning who needs to go. Everyone else that left TFC has been successful, he remained splashing generous contracts and extensions to his buddies.

Manning is the rot at TFC.

SirBobSaget
08-22-2021, 10:38 PM
No matter when Manning will fire Curtis (if ever...) IMHO until Manning is not gone from his position, TFC will be big time underachiever, if comparing the player salaries invested vs other MLS teams' player salaries, and even all organizational, facility, etc. expenses.

Manning is directly responsable for all the gross mismanagement of the funds invested by the MLSE board in this team, he hired his buddy Ali, he supervised closely (or at least should have) everything Ali did since he is here, and all aspects related to the good functioning of the team (again, at least should have).

So while all this forum is shitting on Ali (myself included), because he's done a disgraceful job here, I honestly believe Manning is on the same level or even more responsible with all the mismanagement happened with TFC in the last 3 years.

For the good of this team Manning needs to be gone ASAP, at least from his position, if he'll stay with the organization (we know that he is a corporate survivor).

The people above him, the executive board of MLSE always wanted the best for this team, opened the financial avenues to full success, but nobody from there had or will have probably any real footy knowledge... so a lot more often then not they are hiring the wrong "footy" people to lead the team.

They need to know how much Manning has mismanaged the funds trusted to him!
Right now maybe they do not know it, they think all it is because circumstances like Covid, bad luck, etc, you name it. It isn't.

I think latest in the last week of August at least 1,000 of you guys who reside in Canada and are real TFC supperters and fans (even better if SSH) should write a letter (yes, snail-mail) to the board of the MLSE about this.
I'm not a native English speaker, English is just my 3rd language, but a few of you guys should compose maybe 3-4 variants of short letters, and everyone just chose the version most liked, and then send their snail-mail with that, including of course all their contact info like physical address!

Something short and concise, beginning with like how much of a TFC supperter/fan you are, how long are you following the team, and how angry/discontent you are because how much Mannig mismanaged things (player salaries, contracts, even communication with fans!).
Is essential IMO to mention just about Manning, not even talk about Ali. Essential also to mention how much you apreciate the MLSE board doing everything possible financially for the team to succede.

You think if they get at least 1,000 letters like this (2,000 even better!) they would not care, and Manning will get a free ride for who knows how many more seasons?
I don't think so!

Maybe this is a hugely stupid idea, but maybe not!
If I would be in Canada I would organize guys to send these letters, but I know there are many many here who have the same opinion like me, and can start organizing this action!

Great post. Instead of writing a letter this is what I will do, request they refund my thousands of dollars they have been holding. I can't be bothered going back to paying to support a dysfunctional management group like the Mariner, Beirne and Cochrane era. This is where we have returned to so are now needing a Leiweke type clear out. These leeches have yet again gained control of the franchise.

PizzaEatingYeti
08-23-2021, 04:50 AM
Great post. Instead of writing a letter this is what I will do, request they refund my thousands of dollars they have been holding. I can't be bothered going back to paying to support a dysfunctional management group like the Mariner, Beirne and Cochrane era. This is where we have returned to so are now needing a Leiweke type clear out. These leeches have yet again gained control of the franchise.

That's a wise move, requesting a full refund. And at anytime, if TFC will be better next season, probably you will have no problems at all to get a ticket for a single game, because next season the number of match-goers will be a lot diminished compared to the last "normal" season (I mean before Covid). This assuming next season will be again "normal".

But IMO you should still send a snail-mail to the MLSE board, with the same content of what I posted, plus mentioning that you have requested a full refund, and will become again a SSH when you can see a positive direction/hope for future in the activity of the management of the team.

Hala Hrvatska
08-28-2021, 06:40 AM
My evaluation of Manning? He must be fired now. Enough is enough.

Him and his buddy Curtis need to go. To assemble such a horribly unbalance team with no defenders, and knowing Altidore is always hurt so we are playing with just 2 DPs is a disaster and he and Curtis must go for their incompetent mismanagement of the club. All this with the highest payroll in the mls. And we are a mess now.

SirBobSaget
09-05-2021, 01:12 AM
Club is in a garbage state, personally I want my on hold money back. I have been a paying supporter since the Marlies ransom pack days in 2010. I have no desire to slog my way down to BMO to watch this anymore. Its just no fun, the team has no plan. I'm barely interested watchin on tv. Anyone else starting to feel this way Or am I the exception? Its just a lifeless team with no hope so what's the point. Manning has killed the club by hiring his friends and letting the youth system continue to rot.

portu
09-06-2021, 12:07 PM
It’s kind of shocking that the club dropped off the performance and relevance cliffs. Even at the worst points the club was always trying to generate buzz and lift spirits. This just feels lifeless. Almost as if they absolutely do not care about creating an outward appearance of effort, or worse that there really is no effort at all.

DinamoTFC
09-06-2021, 12:51 PM
My energy is fully put into Canada at this point. When the club starts caring about its fans and appearance things will become positive.

Kamp Berg
09-06-2021, 02:13 PM
My energy is fully put into Canada at this point. When the club starts caring about its fans and appearance things will become positive.

If the president of MLSE had any sense at all, he’d see the immense talent coming out of Canada and find a leader suitable to make TFC the juggernaut of Canadian soccer. Preferably that someone is either Canadian or wishes to call Canada home.

Bantamfan
09-06-2021, 06:03 PM
If the president of MLSE had any sense at all, he’d see the immense talent coming out of Canada and find a leader suitable to make TFC the juggernaut of Canadian soccer. Preferably that someone is either Canadian or wishes to call Canada home.
Throw a ton of money to John Herdman. He is doing to the Men’s team exactly what he did to the Women’s team..
Whos to say he can’t do it at club level.

Ultra & Proud
09-06-2021, 06:56 PM
Throw a ton of money to John Herdman. He is doing to the Men’s team exactly what he did to the Women’s team..
Whos to say he can’t do it at club level.

He has zero experience working with a budget and developing young talent. Running national teams is a lot different than a club.

No room for risks or taking a chance anymore. This GM (and subsequent manager) hire has to be as lock as possible.

Kamp Berg
09-06-2021, 07:01 PM
He has zero experience working with a budget and developing young talent. Running national teams is a lot different than a club.

No room for risks or taking a chance anymore. This GM (and subsequent manager) hire has to be as lock as possible.

Yes, they need a new sort of Lewieke, a real leader who’s going to drive the team forward materially and ideologically.

ag futbol
09-06-2021, 08:01 PM
He has zero experience working with a budget and developing young talent. Running national teams is a lot different than a club.

No room for risks or taking a chance anymore. This GM (and subsequent manager) hire has to be as lock as possible.
Am I feckless hipster for wondering if Smyrniotis would be any good? We’re probably too big a leap for him but I’d be curious to see what he could do with GTA talent and a bigger platform.

ag futbol
09-06-2021, 08:05 PM
Yes, they need a new sort of Lewieke, a real leader who’s going to drive the team forward materially and ideologically.
This is a exactly it.

This team needs to be making noise in the market and be presentable / interesting to the press + fans. Not the soccer-club anonymous program Bill and Ali are running. The most interesting thing about this team right now is that it’s bad.

ensco
09-06-2021, 09:46 PM
Anybody promoting Herdman needs to spend 5 minutes on the Voyageurs forums (now hosted by Canadian Soccer News). Herdman was and really still is a hugely controversial choice for the CMNT job. He doesn’t have the credentials at all for the CMNT position (or TFC) but got the nod because the CSA suits were comfortable with him and thought his total lack of experience meant he was low flight risk. Most of Canada's wins since he got the job have been against minnows. A fairly large segment of the CMNT fan base think he is benefiting from the generational improvement in talent, and not the other way around.

Talk to me if he gets Canada into the WC. Even then he would just be a manager candidate, I am not sure I would let him near a top job.

spe18
09-06-2021, 11:33 PM
He has zero experience working with a budget and developing young talent. Running national teams is a lot different than a club.

No room for risks or taking a chance anymore. This GM (and subsequent manager, AND prior president/technical director/sporting director/whatever way is the correct way to setup a football club, as there seems to be literally dozens of different examples used all over the world, because it is becoming more and more obvious to me the problems with this team start at the very top) hire has to be as lock as possible.

Fixed your post by adding to it :)

spe18
09-06-2021, 11:44 PM
Anybody promoting Herdman needs to spend 5 minutes on the Voyageurs forums (now hosted by Canadian Soccer News). Herdman was and really still is a hugely controversial choice for the CMNT job. He doesn’t have the credentials at all for the CMNT position (or TFC) but got the nod because the CSA suits were comfortable with him and thought his total lack of experience meant he was low flight risk. Most of Canada's wins since he got the job have been against minnows. A fairly large segment of the CMNT fan base think he is benefiting from the generational improvement in talent, and not the other way around.

Talk to me if he gets Canada into the WC. Even then he would just be a manager candidate, I am not sure I would let him near a top job.

Seeing how there have been suggestions to bring on either John Herdman, or Jim Curtain, or someone else, whom I don't really think is the right fit for this particular organization/market, leads me to believe that people on these boards don't really know themselves what it will take to rebuild this club.

PizzaEatingYeti
09-07-2021, 04:29 AM
Throw a ton of money to John Herdman. He is doing to the Men’s team exactly what he did to the Women’s team..
Whos to say he can’t do it at club level.

No thank you!
At least not now, maybe in 1-2 years when Herdman has really proven something.

At this point I'm not even convinced that he is/was the right choice for Canada's national team!
In the 2 matches this qualification stage he was very far for being able to bring out the best from the very talented group of players he has at this disposal.

Oldtimer
09-07-2021, 07:42 AM
Coaching a national team is a very different thing than coaching a club, week-in-and out.

I'd want someone who was a coach (or an assistant) for a men's team.

Gringo Starr
09-07-2021, 09:11 AM
Mauro Biello? MLS experience part of the CMNT revival.

Kamp Berg
09-07-2021, 09:15 AM
This is a exactly it.

This team needs to be making noise in the market and be presentable / interesting to the press + fans. Not the soccer-club anonymous program Bill and Ali are running. The most interesting thing about this team right now is that it’s bad.

I don’t think they are making any noise now because anytime Manning or Curtis pop their heads up, there is a resounding call for them to be fired. Seeing how out of touch they both are, they probably believe they can hide out until everyone forgets TFC exists, lol. Considering how out of touch the board appears, Manning probably can.

portu
09-07-2021, 09:25 AM
Am I feckless hipster for wondering if Smyrniotis would be any good? We’re probably too big a leap for him but I’d be curious to see what he could do with GTA talent and a bigger platform.
I feel like this would be the best solution if the team were to go full RBNY

jloome
09-07-2021, 09:45 AM
I think any suggestion that we hire a Canadian has to end with the phrase ".... because of his vast experience in the professional game as a manager," and can't include Frank Yallop.

I can't, off the top of my head, think of anyone domestic who has the resume for this gig.

We need someone who has a proven track record of winning at pro second-tier level. Tata Martino has already demonstrated the notion of vast MLS experience isn't necessary to win in this league. We need someone of stature, but not a hired gun like Martino who moves ever year or two.

The problem is that no one at the second div level in Europe or SA is that interested in MLS. Might be a good Liga MX manager or two out there, though. Or we could chuck the kitchen sink at Bruce Arena or Jim Curtin. The former might like to have a budget again, and win a cup with three different teams. The latter is handcuffed in Philly by money.

If we could get anyone unemployed, my pick would be Eddie Howe, the former Bournemouth manager. Exceptional talent, constantly being mentioned as ideal for Prem jobs... which is why he reportedly turned down Celtic.

Kamp Berg
09-07-2021, 10:26 AM
I think any suggestion that we hire a Canadian has to end with the phrase ".... because of his vast experience in the professional game as a manager," and can't include Frank Yallop.

I can't, off the top of my head, think of anyone domestic who has the resume for this gig.

We need someone who has a proven track record of winning at pro second-tier level. Tata Martino has already demonstrated the notion of vast MLS experience isn't necessary to win in this league. We need someone of stature, but not a hired gun like Martino who moves ever year or two.

The problem is that no one at the second div level in Europe or SA is that interested in MLS. Might be a good Liga MX manager or two out there, though. Or we could chuck the kitchen sink at Bruce Arena or Jim Curtin. The former might like to have a budget again, and win a cup with three different teams. The latter is handcuffed in Philly by money.

If we could get anyone unemployed, my pick would be Eddie Howe, the former Bournemouth manager. Exceptional talent, constantly being mentioned as ideal for Prem jobs... which is why he reportedly turned down Celtic.

I don’t think the manager needs to be Canadian, but I do think finding someone who is willing to stay long term is best for the club. It will take a few years to build this club into a true perennial contender with a successful academy.

jloome
09-08-2021, 09:44 PM
https://www.winnipegfreepress.com/sports/soccer/toronto-fc-president-says-mls-club-is-struggling-through-a-season-in-quicksand-575267492.html

Manning interview. Sounds like folks is getting fired...

BritSOL
09-09-2021, 06:07 AM
https://www.winnipegfreepress.com/sports/soccer/toronto-fc-president-says-mls-club-is-struggling-through-a-season-in-quicksand-575267492.html

Manning interview. Sounds like folks is getting fired...

Free link to same article

https://www.nationalnewswatch.com/2021/09/08/toronto-fc-president-says-mls-club-is-struggling-through-a-season-in-quicksand/#.YTnn-iWs-Ec

ensco
09-09-2021, 06:30 AM
I find it utterly bizarre that Manning highlights the absence of Piatti.

Yup, TFC fans, midfield is where the problem is.

I also find this kind of suit-trick thing deeply annoying. In discussing Bradley sitting: “And so if managing minutes is going to help him — I'm sure he and Javier have talked — that's the most important thing. Michael is a guy who will do whatever it takes for the good of the team. And that's what makes him special and why he's been a champion."

Manning is pretending he doesn’t know whether Perez and Bradley have talked, because he wants to pretend he had nothing to do with any of this.

ag futbol
09-09-2021, 06:38 AM
I find it utterly bizarre that Manning highlights the absence of Piatti.

Yup, TFC fans, midfield is where the problem is.
Yeah, I thought that quote was a crazy one too.

Is he admitting Solteldo hasn’t worked at 100x the price of Piatti? He’s basically asking to be fired himself saying something that stupid. Where was the mention of a porous defence? I didn’t see it.

I hope someone on the board steps in and ends his time here.

Gringo Starr
09-09-2021, 07:52 AM
Yeah I didn't see a mention of a CB being an issue just the roster lacking some firepower. They have over rated their youth if they were counting on them to fill the gaps. I read this interview as a suit popping his head out to take credit for past success, wash his hands of the current state, and pretend he knows what needs to be done going forward. How does he not already have a plan to rest the roster-why does he have to see the remaining games.

MightyDM
09-09-2021, 09:18 AM
I find it utterly bizarre that Manning highlights the absence of Piatti.

Yup, TFC fans, midfield is where the problem is.

I also find this kind of suit-trick thing deeply annoying. In discussing Bradley sitting: “And so if managing minutes is going to help him — I'm sure he and Javier have talked — that's the most important thing. Michael is a guy who will do whatever it takes for the good of the team. And that's what makes him special and why he's been a champion."

Manning is pretending he doesn’t know whether Perez and Bradley have talked, because he wants to pretend he had nothing to do with any of this.

Wasn't Piatti close to Poz? Is there something there?

MightyDM
09-09-2021, 09:40 AM
And yes, the interview is weird in that it sidesteps obvious flaws such as that we are all midfield with no defence and no attack. Not persuasive that he has a realistic appraisal of this team. Quite separately, the field looked terrible last night - hash marks from the CFL??? Cannot be soccer. What is he doing there to ensure a premium facility for play and for recruiting?

jloome
09-09-2021, 09:52 AM
And yes, the interview is weird in that it sidesteps obvious flaws such as that we are all midfield with no defence and no attack. Not persuasive that he has a realistic appraisal of this team. Quite separately, the field looked terrible last night - hash marks from the CFL??? Cannot be soccer. What is he doing there to ensure a premium facility for play and for recruiting?


Kinda smells like Omar was his decision but not keeping Piatti was advice from elsewhere, likely Curtis.

He's going to toss Curtis under the bus, would be my assumption. It also reads like he has oversold Perez to someone and he may have suggested he's someone to "right the ship," which is probably a mistake.

I mean, all specs here, as we have no idea. But it was carefully tailored to suggest this is a 'firepower' issue, not defense, when it's clearly both.

MightyDM
09-09-2021, 10:35 AM
Kinda smells like Omar was his decision but not keeping Piatti was advice from elsewhere, likely Curtis.

He's going to toss Curtis under the bus, would be my assumption. It also reads like he has oversold Perez to someone and he may have suggested he's someone to "right the ship," which is probably a mistake.

I mean, all specs here, as we have no idea. But it was carefully tailored to suggest this is a 'firepower' issue, not defense, when it's clearly both.

Exactly.

ag futbol
09-09-2021, 10:52 AM
And yes, the interview is weird in that it sidesteps obvious flaws such as that we are all midfield with no defence and no attack. Not persuasive that he has a realistic appraisal of this team. Quite separately, the field looked terrible last night - hash marks from the CFL??? Cannot be soccer. What is he doing there to ensure a premium facility for play and for recruiting?
In true corporate lizard fashion, his primary objective seems to be delaying decisions until later to prolong his tenure and avoid being pinned with obvious failures.

I read that article as confirmation Ali is (likely) already dead. Manning just doesn’t want to move on that yet because that’s one more chess piece off the board and then he has no more fall-guys. It’s the same reason they hesitated to fire Armas.

Hate to say it, but maybe we should hope we faceplant through the end of the year. Might be the quickest way to clear out the deadweight in management

Kamp Berg
09-09-2021, 12:09 PM
https://www.winnipegfreepress.com/sports/soccer/toronto-fc-president-says-mls-club-is-struggling-through-a-season-in-quicksand-575267492.html

Manning interview. Sounds like folks is getting fired...

I thought one of the most interesting parts from the article was how when Manning was in charge of Tampa Bay years ago they had the worst season on record, 14pts. Now the same president is about to set a modern day version of the same record!?! I’m not sure about the stats, but I would venture to guess that no other MLS presidents have steered two different clubs to record setting horrible seasons.

Kamp Berg
09-09-2021, 12:12 PM
In true corporate lizard fashion, his primary objective seems to be delaying decisions until later to prolong his tenure and avoid being pinned with obvious failures.

I read that article as confirmation Ali is (likely) already dead. Manning just doesn’t want to move on that yet because that’s one more chess piece off the board and then he has no more fall-guys. It’s the same reason they hesitated to fire Armas.

Hate to say it, but maybe we should hope we faceplant through the end of the year. Might be the quickest way to clear out the deadweight in management

If I was a player and read that article it would be hard not to recognize that Manning is a snake in the grass, who cannot be trusted. Not someone I would want around.

613reppingTFC
09-09-2021, 01:43 PM
I thought one of the most interesting parts from the article was how when Manning was in charge of Tampa Bay years ago they had the worst season on record, 14pts. Now the same president is about to set a modern day version of the same record!?! I’m not sure about the stats, but I would venture to guess that no other MLS presidents have steered two different clubs to record setting horrible seasons.

Not to mention with the budget he has available to him here at TFC and one of the highest paid teams in the league. I wouldn't think he had the same resources available back then did he?

leedsandTFC
09-09-2021, 05:58 PM
"We had a really good run with this group," said Manning. "I'd say a five-year run where we were, if not the best, one of the top two or three teams in the league consistently.
"Now we have to lay out a plan how to put this season behind us, be bold and put together a group that is going to be a championship contender. That's what I always talk about and we're nowhere near that right now."

this is the most encouraging part, referring to the current group and mainstays of the past 5 years in the past tense.

looks like they finally realized they need to totally rebuild the squad's foundations.

MightyDM
09-09-2021, 06:48 PM
I have no confidence that they have the knowledge or capacity to rebuild. It's not exactly a surprise that they had an aging injury prone roster with inadequate back ups in key positions, and in the midst of this they paid huge money for a talent - Soteldo - that does fix any of the obvious problems the club has had (like lack of a secondary scoring threat, lack of a number two (or number three)) defender, etc). To say now that we had a good run and now we have to rebuild is an admission of complete management failure - there should have been a lsow rebuild all along, like the elite teams. For us, money was no object - the only thing in the way was and is the skill of senior management.

OgtheDim
09-09-2021, 09:12 PM
I would note the Piatti bit is not actually quoted - can't really judge at all what was said there. A LOT of that article is Davidson editorializing - its Davidson who talks about Gonzalez & Mavinga being effective.




Apart from that, IF Manning sticks around, and that increasingly looks likely, I appreciate that he basically is saying its time to make wholesale changes - the quote about needing a new group is encouraging. The fact playoffs were not mentioned is good. Time to move on.

OgtheDim
09-09-2021, 09:21 PM
In true corporate lizard fashion, his primary objective seems to be delaying decisions until later to prolong his tenure ...

Uh, there is no real possibility of making changes now. That article basically says they were going to try a new coach, see if he could work with the group this year & rebuild around that coach next year. Coach flamed out. Building next year again.

In essence, Covid uncertainty meant the team was not going to be able to do much switching around. That was the theory. People may disagree with that approach but it sounds like once 2020 finished, the team decided to stand pat for one more season.

Now, pretty much everybody in here has been basically saying that was a mistake but that was the call.

portu
09-10-2021, 01:45 AM
Editorializing of that article alongside no access to interview transcript is big red flag for a puff piece.

The fact that this puff piece still makes Manning and the club look like shit tells you just how useless management currently is.

ag futbol
09-10-2021, 09:48 AM
Uh, there is no real possibility of making changes now. That article basically says they were going to try a new coach, see if he could work with the group this year & rebuild around that coach next year. Coach flamed out. Building next year again.

In essence, Covid uncertainty meant the team was not going to be able to do much switching around. That was the theory. People may disagree with that approach but it sounds like once 2020 finished, the team decided to stand pat for one more season.

Now, pretty much everybody in here has been basically saying that was a mistake but that was the call.
Can’t say I share this opinion. Both Montreal and Vancouver have made adjustments in this environment and face equivalent circumstances to ourselves.

There is no “pandemic issue” that prevents us from showing Curtis the door today and moving on. It’s simply a game of optics.

jloome
09-10-2021, 09:50 AM
Editorializing of that article alongside no access to interview transcript is big red flag for a puff piece.

The fact that this puff piece still makes Manning and the club look like shit tells you just how useless management currently is.

He didn't really editorialize, he paraphrased. The only editorializing there was the word "interesting," which in sports reporter circles doesn't even qualify.

If a newspaper reporter says someone else said something or talked about something and what he prints reflects that accurately, it's paraphrasing. Given how garbled quotes often are when people speak them, it's actually more honest than what many reporters do, which is just clean up the quote.

If a newspaper reporter renders JUDGEMENT on what's being said, that's editorializing.

The fact that he said Manning pointed to Piatti as an issue of why we're scoring less means Manning pointed to Piatti as an issue, not that he mentioned Piatti wasn't here and the writer drew conclusions.

That's still how those rules work.

Richard
09-10-2021, 11:08 AM
Can’t say I share this opinion. Both Montreal and Vancouver have made adjustments in this environment and face equivalent circumstances to ourselves.

There is no “pandemic issue” that prevents us from showing Curtis the door today and moving on. It’s simply a game of optics.

Bingo.

Only reason Ali hasn't been sacked is because of his new 3 year deal. It looks bad on Manning to fire the GM within 6 months.

Armas was let go 2-3 games late, same situation, it makes Ali look bad. They both stuck there head in the sand, hoped and prayed Armas would turn it around. Look at that dumpster fire of a conference, can't even confirm interim, they let Armas hung to dry too.

If the MLSE board wasn't asleep at the wheel both these clowns would have been shit canned. Unfortunately TFC is on par with the Argos, small time club and irrelevant.

Hala Hrvatska
09-12-2021, 08:41 AM
How does Manning have a job this morning still? He has ran the highest payroll team in the MLS into a laughingstock. We are horrible. No sugar coating....no more excuses of "not playing at home", etc...this is a fiasco.

No more of these clueless Americans like Manning and Curtis in this club. Enough is enough.

PS take "Captain" Bradley with them...he is collecting a million dollar paycheque for nothing...zero leadership and he is hopeless out there. And Altidore is laughing all the way to the bank on his 5th highest pay in all of the MLS.

Slick
09-12-2021, 04:10 PM
For the first time since the club's inception, I am going to cancel my season seats. The question I have is, what are they going to go with my credit.

Congratulations Manning, you've personally run this club to the ground and turned us into the league laughing stock. How can you claim that TFC will always be one of the league top spenders, yet have a clown running it into shits.

Initial B
09-12-2021, 06:23 PM
I was just thinking - could the problem actually be the Argos? Manning was named Argo's president at the beginning of 2018, and things seemed to start taking a downward turn at TFC soon after. Could it be that because he is splitting his time between the two organizations, that he can't give enough attention to either? If that's the case, then the fault lies with the MLSE board that's trying to penny pinch in places where they shouldn't. Perhaps Manning left everything to Bez to run, including the President tasks, and Bez decided he may as well take the title in Columbus? I could see him hiring Ali (the result having his focus split meant not a detailed vetting of the candidate) and leaving the entire organization to Curtis to run while he focused on the Argos, and that's come back to bite him in the butt.

SirBobSaget
09-12-2021, 08:27 PM
I was just thinking - could the problem actually be the Argos? Manning was named Argo's president at the beginning of 2018, and things seemed to start taking a downward turn at TFC soon after. Could it be that because he is splitting his time between the two organizations, that he can't give enough attention to either? If that's the case, then the fault lies with the MLSE board that's trying to penny pinch in places where they shouldn't. Perhaps Manning left everything to Bez to run, including the President tasks, and Bez decided he may as well take the title in Columbus? I could see him hiring Ali (the result having his focus split meant not a detailed vetting of the candidate) and leaving the entire organization to Curtis to run while he focused on the Argos, and that's come back to bite him in the butt.

Manning could go hyper-focused and dedicate 168 hours a week to TFC and I doubt the outcome improves. The peak was 2017, ever since its been a steady downward trend until this year where the bottom completely fell out. I believe the last piece holding this ship from sinking was Vanney and his staff, one he left along with his coaches we we're left with 100% team Ali and Manning.

FootBallAZ
09-14-2021, 11:05 AM
another TIFO should be made.

This guy screwed up Seba and Jozy's contract by thinking he can bully these guys into playing on 1 year and letting the contract run out- pure arrogance to change a system that is used all over the world.

this is the point he should have been fired- it has been a mess ever since.

If he can boast about championships, treble, playoff team he should be held accountable for his terrible player management.

Ultra & Proud
09-14-2021, 11:57 AM
This guy screwed up Seba and Jozy's contract by thinking he can bully these guys into playing on 1 year and letting the contract run out- pure arrogance to change a system that is used all over the world.

All over the world except in MLS where there's a more American Pro sports system in place.

The Jozy mistake was re-signing him at all.

FootBallAZ
09-14-2021, 02:31 PM
All over the world except in MLS where there's a more American Pro sports system in place.

The Jozy mistake was re-signing him at all.


i agree- but if they deal with it like how it should have been done im sure it wouldnt have been as high as he is getting paid now.

he had all the leverage while TFC was scrambling to keep one of their DP's and not have supporters upset.

I honestly cannot comment on a good move for TFC in a long time.

Solteldo - no
Jozy- no
Pozuelo - okay - unsure where is
lawrence - over a CB?- no
not bringing a keeper for competition vs bono/westberg

ignoring supporters and thinking he is smarter than and not even communicating at all.

he needs to go ASAP- I was patient at first as I thought it was all Curtis- but the more and more I think about it -the more arrogance i see from manning trickle down from the top.

just get rid of him- i have zero confidence that they'll be able to finesse this roster to something salvageable -like Masai has done or is in the process of doing. SMH



I only am keeping my seasons due to world cup 2026-

Hala Hrvatska
09-15-2021, 05:46 AM
The free fall continues. All with the highest payroll in the league. The attendance also was brutally low...will that finally wake up MLSE that yes "Houston, we have a problem". Ffs, how does Manning still have a job this morning?

Thrillos
09-15-2021, 06:16 PM
Manning can stay as long as he does one of two things very shortly:

1. Fires Curtis, and brings in a new GM before the end of November latest. This GM can then have input to the hiring of a manager before xmas so we get a full preparation of pre season with our new leadership

Or

2. Brings in a new manager shortly after season end and is essentially acting GM for that manager while Curtis serves beer on game days until he resigns and we don’t eat his contract. We can then hire a GM to work with the new manager. Said manager should have some input to the new GM.

To me if neither of those happen he should be gone by xmas.

MightyDM
09-15-2021, 06:41 PM
They need to clean house from a management perspective; I am fine if they move on of their own volition but it's been a steady decline - and Manning has been given resources.. And separate the role of the Argo president from TFC

spe18
09-15-2021, 06:43 PM
Manning can stay as long as he does one of two things very shortly:

1. Fires Curtis, and brings in a new GM before the end of November latest. This GM can then have input to the hiring of a manager before xmas so we get a full preparation of pre season with our new leadership

Or

2. Brings in a new manager shortly after season end and is essentially acting GM for that manager while Curtis serves beer on game days until he resigns and we don’t eat his contract. We can then hire a GM to work with the new manager. Said manager should have some input to the new GM.

To me if neither of those happen he should be gone by xmas.

At this time, I don't trust Manning in making the right hire for this, if infact the board @ MLSE will even allow them to buyout the remaining part of Curtis' contract.

I suspect even if he is to bring in a GM, Manning will still want a significant say in how the team is managed.

If anything, the change needs to start from Manning's level, and filter its way down.

Interestingly, there was an article posted on mlssoccer.com today with regards to the owner of the Houston Dynamo searching for a new GM, particularly his vision, timelines, and roster building. Including boosting their academy. I have no idea what tfc's current plans are to bolster its academy.

https://www.mlssoccer.com/news/houston-dynamo-fc-owner-ted-segal-updates-gm-search-roster-building-plans

Thrillos
09-15-2021, 07:37 PM
Don’t get me wrong, I have no problem in Manning going too. I do think he let Curtis go for too long with Armas.

But, I like to think you get two screw ups. As a GM you get two shots at a good manager. As a President you get two shots at a good GM. Curtis failed with multiple signings, held on to armas so long it is like failing twice and I don’t think Perez was a good hire for the rest of the season. Manning can have one more shot at bringing in a GM if he follows my two points. Just my opinion, and again I would be fine he was canned as well right now.

Hala Hrvatska
09-17-2021, 06:21 AM
Don’t get me wrong, I have no problem in Manning going too. I do think he let Curtis go for too long with Armas.

But, I like to think you get two screw ups. As a GM you get two shots at a good manager. As a President you get two shots at a good GM. Curtis failed with multiple signings, held on to armas so long it is like failing twice and I don’t think Perez was a good hire for the rest of the season. Manning can have one more shot at bringing in a GM if he follows my two points. Just my opinion, and again I would be fine he was canned as well right now.

Manning has to go for the idiotic choice to make Curtis the GM in the first place. Why would you get "two shots"? So you are saying he gets a free pass on hiring his way over his head and red bulls reject here and destroying the team? This is gross incompetence from him and also Curtis. They both must go.

Thrillos
09-17-2021, 02:23 PM
Manning has to go for the idiotic choice to make Curtis the GM in the first place. Why would you get "two shots"? So you are saying he gets a free pass on hiring his way over his head and red bulls reject here and destroying the team? This is gross incompetence from him and also Curtis. They both must go.

My view on the 'two shots' is that it isn't great for culture to fire someone for every mistake. Given that, like i said, I am totally good with him being canned as well for the reasons you state. It has been one long, colossal screw up!

As for some more explanation on my "two shots" view, for example:

Vanney had a rough season in 2018, some were calling for him to be fired. I am glad he wasn't because as a coach that was one of his two shots, and he obviously turned it back around.

For Curtis, he has made bad signings and poor coaching decisions, he needs to be gone asap. I don't think a single person sees this any other way.

For Manning, his job is to oversee so mainly to bring in a competent GM. But to clarify again, this is just me saying I am on the fence of him going. I would be content either way, he let Curtis go for too long the same way Curtis let Armas go for too long.


Edit: Thinking about more, Manning hired Curtis and then actually extended him while the wheels were starting to fall off. That may be two shots now that I think about it more. I'll lean more towards he should be gone now too.

Hala Hrvatska
09-17-2021, 02:28 PM
My view on the 'two shots' is that it isn't great for culture to fire someone for every mistake. Given that, like i said, I am totally good with him being canned as well for the reasons you state. It has been one long, colossal screw up!

As for some more explanation on my "two shots" view, for example:

Vanney had a rough season in 2018, some were calling for him to be fired. I am glad he wasn't because as a coach that was one of his two shots, and he obviously turned it back around.

For Curtis, he has made bad signings and poor coaching decisions, he needs to be gone asap. I don't think a single person sees this any other way.

For Manning, his job is to oversee so mainly to bring in a competent GM. But to clarify again, this is just me saying I am on the fence of him going. I would be content either way, he let Curtis go for too long the same way Curtis let Armas go for too long.


Edit: Thinking about more, Manning hired Curtis and then actually extended him while the wheels were starting to fall off. That may be two shots now that I think about it more. I'll lean more towards he should be gone now too.

Agreed fully. They both need to go.

Its shocking how bad we are now. Their heads must roll. And for the love of God, no more Red Bulls related coachs and players for that matter as well. Its a club that has never one anything but for some reason we think they are to be emulated somehow.

Thrillos
09-17-2021, 02:34 PM
Agreed fully. They both need to go.

Its shocking how bad we are now. Their heads must roll. And for the love of God, no more Red Bulls related coachs and players for that matter as well. Its a club that has never one anything but for some reason we think they are to be emulated somehow.


Agreed, and it is funny how it is clear that Jesse Marsch was the main and only reason for their strong contention for a couple seasons. Just like it is becoming quite clear Vanney was the main part of our dominance up until now. Sadly the NYRB were smart enough to see Marsch for what he is and Curtis for what he is, we didn't... and did the opposite.

Ultra & Proud
09-17-2021, 03:12 PM
Up until this morning I was still down for giving Manning another shot. All I can say now is that if he signs Giovinco to a January deal before we have a new GM & manager then Manning should be out too. Everyone out then. Even the janitors and cooks. Burn it to the ground and start over.

MightyDM
09-20-2021, 03:02 PM
Up until this morning I was still down for giving Manning another shot. All I can say now is that if he signs Giovinco to a January deal before we have a new GM & manager then Manning should be out too. Everyone out then. Even the janitors and cooks. Burn it to the ground and start over.


The cooks, noooooooo

ensco
09-20-2021, 03:21 PM
I just finished Simon Kuper's new book on Barcelona, and it has a passage that I thought must describe the thought process of Manning/Curtis in hiring Armas, and the serious error they made in trying to implement an elite system in a secondary league with aging players (key sentences bolded)...

______

"Gegenpressing, the Germans called the latest version: chasing up the opposition the moment you lose possession, so as to win the ball near their goal, before their defense could organize. It was Ajax’s “hunting” of the 1970s on fast-forward—a game so rapid it should be called “storming.” ... Whereas Guardiola’s Barça had hated losing the ball, for teams like Klopp’s Liverpool, losing the ball and then winning it back was the strategy. In 2014, Germany’s 1–7 thrashing of Brazil with rapid forward pressing had seemed like a hilarious one-off. It turned out to be the portent of a new phenomenon: blowout wins by teams playing at a pace that would have seemed impossible as recently as 2010. By 2020, storming had become the orthodoxy, practiced even by traditionally cautious teams like Juventus and Chelsea. Wing-backs pelted forward nonstop. Midfielders pulled sprints when their team won the ball, and also when they lost it....The Champions League had never averaged three goals per game in any season between 2003–2004 (when the competition’s new format was adopted) and 2015–2016. Between 2016 and 2020, the average exceeded three for three seasons out of four...

Teams like Barça, which pass out from defense, can be caught in storms. Used to having the ball in the other team’s half, Barcelona got confused when they lost it in their own. One oddity of storming is that the method tends to work best against skillful attacking teams like Barcelona. It’s hard to storm a defensive team, because they keep ten men back. It’s also hard to storm a long-ball team, because they will go long, bypassing the storm.

jloome
09-20-2021, 04:09 PM
I just finished Simon Kuper's new book on Barcelona, and it has a passage that I thought must describe the thought process of Manning/Curtis in hiring Armas, and the serious error they made in trying to implement an elite system in a secondary league with aging players (key sentences bolded)...

______

"Gegenpressing, the Germans called the latest version: chasing up the opposition the moment you lose possession, so as to win the ball near their goal, before their defense could organize. It was Ajax’s “hunting” of the 1970s on fast-forward—a game so rapid it should be called “storming.” ... Whereas Guardiola’s Barça had hated losing the ball, for teams like Klopp’s Liverpool, losing the ball and then winning it back was the strategy. In 2014, Germany’s 1–7 thrashing of Brazil with rapid forward pressing had seemed like a hilarious one-off. It turned out to be the portent of a new phenomenon: blowout wins by teams playing at a pace that would have seemed impossible as recently as 2010. By 2020, storming had become the orthodoxy, practiced even by traditionally cautious teams like Juventus and Chelsea. Wing-backs pelted forward nonstop. Midfielders pulled sprints when their team won the ball, and also when they lost it....The Champions League had never averaged three goals per game in any season between 2003–2004 (when the competition’s new format was adopted) and 2015–2016. Between 2016 and 2020, the average exceeded three for three seasons out of four...

Teams like Barça, which pass out from defense, can be caught in storms. Used to having the ball in the other team’s half, Barcelona got confused when they lost it in their own. One oddity of storming is that the method tends to work best against skillful attacking teams like Barcelona. It’s hard to storm a defensive team, because they keep ten men back. It’s also hard to storm a long-ball team, because they will go long, bypassing the storm.

Yeah, that’s pretty telling. We moved immediately into a low block from offense against Nashville. If you look at the possession, we ceded the centre of the pitch so greatly that they outpossesed us overall, eve though we had more possession than them in both the offensive and defensive ends.

Total clearances were 33-7 in our our favor.

So we did the exact opposite of our old build from the back: we only countered, we cleared the ball at any hint of danger and when they changed tactics to a 433 and tried to boss possession, we pressed.

Basically the defensive version of the press and low block.

ag futbol
09-20-2021, 04:23 PM
Yeah, that’s pretty telling. We moved immediately into a low block from offense against Nashville. If you look at the possession, we ceded the centre of the pitch so greatly that they outpossesed us overall, eve though we had more possession than them in both the offensive and defensive ends.

Total clearances were 33-7 in our our favor.

So we did the exact opposite of our old build from the back: we only countered, we cleared the ball at any hint of danger and when they changed tactics to a 433 and tried to boss possession, we pressed.

Basically the defensive version of the press and low block.
It’s almost like the strategy we said we wanted but Armas wasn’t smart enough to implement

MightyDM
09-20-2021, 06:00 PM
It’s almost like the strategy we said we wanted but Armas wasn’t smart enough to implement

Perez might not be the right fit for future coach but he is no slouch tactically.

ensco
09-20-2021, 06:35 PM
It’s almost like the strategy we said we wanted but Armas wasn’t smart enough to implement

I think it’s more like Armas said: “Look at Bayern, look at Chelsea, look at Juve, this is the future” and sold that to these guys.

They said “yup” but the correct response of course was: “Look at this team and roster construction. Look at this league. Look at our salary structure and roster rules.“

ag futbol
09-20-2021, 08:20 PM
I think it’s more like Armas said: “Look at Bayern, look at Chelsea, look at Juve, this is the future” and sold that to these guys.

They said “yup” but the correct response of course was: “Look at this team and roster construction. Look at this league. Look at our salary structure and roster rules.“
There was a certain element of being over ambitious with that strategy, for sure. Now that said, playing guys out of position and hearing multiple snippets from players about “clear instructions” when Perez started really makes me think Armas’s flaws go well beyond any preference in tactical style

Kamp Berg
09-21-2021, 07:56 AM
It’s almost like the strategy we said we wanted but Armas wasn’t smart enough to implement

I had the same thought while watching the game. My guess is that Armas was only teaching the press, but couldn’t figure out the corresponding tactics. Maybe Perez was given the temp coaching job because Manning and Curtis believe he has the know how to implement what Armas couldn’t?

jloome
09-21-2021, 01:36 PM
I had the same thought while watching the game. My guess is that Armas was only teaching the press, but couldn’t figure out the corresponding tactics. Maybe Perez was given the temp coaching job because Manning and Curtis believe he has the know how to implement what Armas couldn’t?

The system we ran was more a “reverse” press or counterpress. They countered and bunkered and only pressed when the outlet players were isolated. It was much more conservative than what Armas was trying, which was more like the “hunter” system the Dutch used to use in Cruyffks days (a modern press without a low block positionally, basically.)

As Ensco mentioned Armas’ press was basically a gamble that our roster was advanced enough to play Man City’s system, which they clearly weren’t.

Bushmancan
10-06-2021, 12:23 PM
His interview was so painful... finally watched it after 3rd attempt... to save people 15 minutes of their time.

* One of the big reasons why we were having so many issues keeping DPs on the Field (No solutions or causes offered, nothing about training tactics or benching of Jozy)
* Piatti and Ciman Leadership/Glue Void (what did Morrow, Bradley, OSO etc. bring then)
* Away from BMO (Legit)
* Xavier (Wait and See)
* Canadian Championship (More important because of failures this year, CONCACAF & Trophy)
* We want to play for Trophies (Stressed it like Winning Canadian championship makes it ok "my interpretation)
* Off Season Significance (Urgency to re-build but right decision before expediency, January window incredibly important)
* After this season, there will be change (Q: Does change come on and off the pitch? - reviewing everything, but especially on the field (need guys healthy and on the field, mentioned Ayo... but no Jozy and no mention at all of Curtis) but he stressed I know how to put together a championship team, i have done it before. (no "we" on that one)
* Seba (Favorite son, maintained relationship... would be a nice story but need to see if there is a way, there is a willingness)
* Winning Makes it all better (we have been away for too long) (Poz we have only seen live for one season and he is in this third year, fans make it better)
* Has COVID reduced his ability to spend (Ownership have taken care of everything they have been asked, took care of the players... can blame ownership)

We are going to be BOLD in the Off season.

ag futbol
10-06-2021, 12:27 PM
He mentioned Ciman in addition to Piatti? I missed that … Dude is just downright desperate and grasping at straws.

Bushmancan
10-06-2021, 12:43 PM
Could barely make it out.... the real thing is he was pure PR. As a RBP and a SSH, I would have respected him more if he said. We made some mistakes and we are going to fix them....it was a fluff piece.

jloome
10-06-2021, 12:51 PM
Could barely make it out.... the real thing is he was pure PR. As a RBP and a SSH, I would have respected him more if he said. We made some mistakes and we are going to fix them....it was a fluff piece.

Also... what Champion team has Manning ever built!? He literally parachuted into RSL with the roster that won a) getting into the playoffs on the last day due to our collapse 5-0 at NY and b) with the entire team already there when he arrived. He added zero important pieces.

That was the last and only time they were close.

He doesn't know how to build fuck all.

Delusional is right if he thinks that load of horseshit is going to convince TFC fans. We have an imbalanced, old roster without enough competitive backup in key positions.

Mr. Inbetween
01-11-2022, 06:29 AM
So my feelings about Manning… his past and present efforts….
To use the words of another less shorter Southern Italian ‘baller…
Gattuso, who has a little more prestigious silverware then Insigne…
https://youtu.be/WVxWA4FfD2M

Regarding Insigne… Manning’s story about how he identified the acquisition, what was suggested and stated by him is a little convenient for me. It may be more nuanced. I think he may be playing a little loose and fast, a bit of a shell game, with some of those facts. Apart from the corporate self posturing which is to be expected and alright.

I get it, that for many on these Forums it just doesn’t matter. We should be happy… celebrating and giving praise. It should be a mantra thread. Sure, Manning’s the point person on this that got Insigne signed. Full-stop. His achievement, yet conversely… his corporate albatross. To an extent I will agree his role was significant, yet also part of a daisy chain; for instance, let’s not forget the critical roles very experienced DiCuollo and go-getter agent D’Amico most likely played.

I am happy and I have celebrated. I am not ready to give praise. I get the feeling Manning is not being forthcoming with the real genesis of how Insigne was landed; hence, the simpleton Transfermarkt remark. There is more to it then what is being reported; that it started with a basic list.

My speculative and alternate reality?

Insigne was less per se initially targeted and more fell, God sent by circumstances even, into Manning’s, TFC’s and us supporters’ fortunate laps. He was probably more of a by product of Criscito’s interaction with TFC than anything else.

Let me explain. I have no concern that as suggested by Manning, in SEP21 a plan was created, presented to MLSE Board and greenlit. That plan most likely involved a framework of generalities- execution markers, maybe even some specifics- names on a list. If not, without a doubt, players were eventually identified with Transfermarkt or other aggregators. I will concede Insigne may have even been on any such list. However, I am not able to reasonably believe that at that time he was among the primary or more realistic of targets initially aspired for and sought. For those, I believe one was Destro. This would explain his and teammate Criscito’s suggested early commitment after a visit during an international break; likely the first full week of October but between 03OCT21 and 16OCT21 and supported by information from a poster on another thread. As well as, the notion that they are as good as signed; were now?

Follow the convergence of factors at play; the bouncing ball. According to Transfermarkt, how ironic is that!... Destro’s contract ends this season, Criscito’s end of season 2023. Genoa’s season was already trending the wrong way by OCT21; towards relegation. Destro may have said something to his Captain Criscito about TFC’s connect. I believe Destro is known to Michael Bradley. Bob Bradley may have even had an inclination by OCT21 that he was moving on from LAFC; an opinion at least maybe was even shared with son. Criscito is represented by D’Amico. It may have even happened in reverse; D’Amico, Criscito then Destro.

Nonetheless, my understanding is that Criscito is good friends with Insigne. Perhaps Criscito visited here as Insigne’s proxy, but it is more likely he came and saw because of D’Amico and any initial reach out to the agent by Manning. Criscito then may have mentioned to his friend, “hey if it looks like Napoli is stringing you along, you may want to consider this… given the idea you will not play for another SerieA team if you are compelled to leave, for legacy reasons”; enter D’Amico.

According to another post in another thread of this RPB Forum, the first sports paper to have likely reported on TFC’s interest in Insigne may have been La Gazzetta dello Sport on 13OCT21; with a meeting between party representatives confirmed. If there was any communication between Criscito before and / or during his visit to TFC's facilities with Insigne and any sort of interest was expressed, D’Amico would likely have acted immediately and with DiCuollo on the development and for that meeting.

I think Insigne’s targeting was more happenstance and a by product than Manning cares to admit. Still, fantastic fortune for him, TFC, us supporters, MLS and the beautiful game in our region.

Without question Manning worked his ass off on this.
More than happy to be completely wrong with my fantasy.
To take a bucket of egg on the face.
We got Il Magnifico!

Section 223
01-11-2022, 11:57 AM
So my feelings about Manning… his past and present efforts….
To use the words of another less shorter Southern Italian ‘baller…
Gattuso, who has a little more prestigious silverware then Insigne…
https://youtu.be/WVxWA4FfD2M

Regarding Insigne… Manning’s story about how he identified the acquisition, what was suggested and stated by him is a little convenient for me. It may be more nuanced. I think he may be playing a little loose and fast, a bit of a shell game, with some of those facts. Apart from the corporate self posturing which is to be expected and alright.

I get it, that for many on these Forums it just doesn’t matter. We should be happy… celebrating and giving praise. It should be a mantra thread. Sure, Manning’s the point person on this that got Insigne signed. Full-stop. His achievement, yet conversely… his corporate albatross. To an extent I will agree his role was significant, yet also part of a daisy chain; for instance, let’s not forget the critical roles very experienced DiCuollo and go-getter agent D’Amico most likely played.

I am happy and I have celebrated. I am not ready to give praise. I get the feeling Manning is not being forthcoming with the real genesis of how Insigne was landed; hence, the simpleton Transfermarkt remark. There is more to it then what is being reported; that it started with a basic list.

My speculative and alternate reality?

Insigne was less per se initially targeted and more fell, God sent by circumstances even, into Manning’s, TFC’s and us supporters’ fortunate laps. He was probably more of a by product of Criscito’s interaction with TFC than anything else.

Let me explain. I have no concern that as suggested by Manning, in SEP21 a plan was created, presented to MLSE Board and greenlit. That plan most likely involved a framework of generalities- execution markers, maybe even some specifics- names on a list. If not, without a doubt, players were eventually identified with Transfermarkt or other aggregators. I will concede Insigne may have even been on any such list. However, I am not able to reasonably believe that at that time he was among the primary or more realistic of targets initially aspired for and sought. For those, I believe one was Destro. This would explain his and teammate Criscito’s suggested early commitment after a visit during an international break; likely the first full week of October but between 03OCT21 and 16OCT21 and supported by information from a poster on another thread. As well as, the notion that they are as good as signed; were now?

Follow the convergence of factors at play; the bouncing ball. According to Transfermarkt, how ironic is that!... Destro’s contract ends this season, Criscito’s end of season 2023. Genoa’s season was already trending the wrong way by OCT21; towards relegation. Destro may have said something to his Captain Criscito about TFC’s connect. I believe Destro is known to Michael Bradley. Bob Bradley may have even had an inclination by OCT21 that he was moving on from LAFC; an opinion at least maybe was even shared with son. Criscito is represented by D’Amico. It may have even happened in reverse; D’Amico, Criscito then Destro.

Nonetheless, my understanding is that Criscito is good friends with Insigne. Perhaps Criscito visited here as Insigne’s proxy, but it is more likely he came and saw because of D’Amico and any initial reach out to the agent by Manning. Criscito then may have mentioned to his friend, “hey if it looks like Napoli is stringing you along, you may want to consider this… given the idea you will not play for another SerieA team if you are compelled to leave, for legacy reasons”; enter D’Amico.

According to another post in another thread of this RPB Forum, the first sports paper to have likely reported on TFC’s interest in Insigne may have been La Gazzetta dello Sport on 13OCT21; with a meeting between party representatives confirmed. If there was any communication between Criscito before and / or during his visit to TFC's facilities with Insigne and any sort of interest was expressed, D’Amico would likely have acted immediately and with DiCuollo on the development and for that meeting.

I think Insigne’s targeting was more happenstance and a by product than Manning cares to admit. Still, fantastic fortune for him, TFC, us supporters, MLS and the beautiful game in our region.

Without question Manning worked his ass off on this.
More than happy to be completely wrong with my fantasy.
To take a bucket of egg on the face.
We got Il Magnifico!
I agree whole heartedly with how this went down , this basically fell on Manning, and that Gattuso is hilarious. Well written Mr In between , sounds like you got this Manning joker all figured out.

ensco
01-11-2022, 12:26 PM
^^My favourite type of post: a credibly explained, highly speculative theory about what happened!

FootBallAZ
01-11-2022, 01:15 PM
i never felt confident with manning.

The fact TFC was unprepared handling, Seba's contract, not addressing equal productive players as replacement for VV and then panicking and giving Altidore a huge contract.

I believe as we speak, poz effectively replace VV, dont think TFC ever had a replacement for Seba.


I was not happy and was going to let my rep know and make sure it got to someone important.

This doesnt change much in my eyes, he has been in self preservation mode since the press conference with Curtis.

Highlighting all his achievements during TFC's worst season ever.

He cannot get a pass for providing Curtis the key to destruct the foundation that was built- TFC once again became the laughing stock of the league.

I have to question his knowledge of soccer, his ego as he tried to will Seba to play out his contract like other north american sports - instead of addressing contracts like the rest of the world does.

Even to this very moment, paying to address error's his right hand man created - not to mention the turmoil/tension caused with Laryea and blocking him- We all see how he is on the field- imagine how he was feeling when he felt like his dreams were being blocked.


I am not too impressed as the next set of moves prove to be important.

He could miss out and get no one else like last season or look like an idiot for causing issues with Genke- this all shows me the incompetence - Someone of his resume as he pointed out shouldnt be learning how to management other teams they are vetting players for.

ensco
01-11-2022, 01:24 PM
^You beat me to it (some of it anyway....)

ensco
01-11-2022, 01:35 PM
Hi Larry.

Some people here (well, me, anyway) think it’s time for Bill Manning to just 100% stuck to the business/admin side of TFC, and the Argos or whatever else you want him to do. That is a big, full-time job. Then give the soccer keys to Bob, and let Bill gracefully step out of the picture.

First off, I want to say that I think Bill Manning is an incredibly decent person. My only interaction with him ever was in the line at YYZ to board the AC flight to Seattle on the Friday night before MLS Cup 2019. He was very gracious with myself and others.

I am not blind to his significant success here. Manning inherited a powerhouse on the verge, and he did a very impressive thing, he didn’t mess with it, and he got it across the finish line (mostly). He has a title, three Cup finals. Most important, his team came by far the closest of anyone in MLS history to achieving the MLS dream, which is, to walk into Mexico and beat their biggest and best teams in their fabled stadiums (which TFC pretty much did). I am sure I speak for most when I say we are all very grateful for this.
________

Intelligence, integrity and energy, all things I think Bill has, are the most important things in hiring senior people. Just ask Warren Buffett, you can look it up, he has said exactly that numerous times. Buffett once was asked a follow up question: how important is subject matter expertise? His answer was, actually not that important, because (i) I have lots of people in all my companies that have that, it's not that scarce, and (ii) if you get the right individual with the right level of intelligence, they will learn what they need to know.

Unfortunately I think Buffett was not 100% right about that, and I think Bill’s recent years here are evidence of this. Manning is having repeated serious problems on the soccer side, and isn’t learning from mistakes.
________

I think the head of the soccer operation (call him President, GM, Sporting Director, whatever) has more of less the following things to manage:


Hiring the manager/leadership of the team on the field
Running the youth development/academy system
College scouting for MLS draft
USL(and now CPL) scouting
Leading the pro scouting function (ie scouting other MLS teams for trades/signings)
Identifying targets, negotiating with, and signing players (and resigning players)
Having a vision for the future (who might come to MLS, and why, and when), watching for opportunities created elsewhere
Mentoring and building a team


It’s a huge, tough job. How do you think Manning has done? Here is my take:

Hiring the Manager/Leadership. This has been pretty bad. Curtis and Armas were horrific grease fires. But Vanney's departure spoke also volumes. Greg left a job where he had near Wenger-like job security and status, and went into a situation with little/no job security (the GM at LAG that hired him is already gone). I get that Vanney went home, the pandemic was tough etc … but still, in retrospect, his leaving was a major warning sign. Greg obviously saw through Curtis, and the question for you is, fine, Manning got the Curtis hire wrong, but why didn’t Manning, even after two years, see what Vanney saw? How on earth could Manning give Curtis an extension in 2021? (BB looks like a much better hire of course but I really hope it is you and the Board that hired and will ultimately evaluate BB, and not just Manning.)

Youth Development/Academy. This has been a fail. Manning has had seven years to fix this. If there was one thing we all thought he could do, this was it. Ontario produces a ton of talent and virtually none of it winds up at TFC.

College Scouting/MLS Draft. This is also a fail. Who have we acquired in the draft over the last seven years? Alex Bono. That's it. Nobody in the last five years. We have been horrible at this.

USL scouting. Another fail. This is becoming a major source of low cost talent in MLS. But not for TFC.

Pro Scouting. This is not bad, sort of. TFC had been very good at this on Manning's watch. Laryea, DeLeon, going even back to Beitashour and Will Johnson. But it sure looks to me like Vanney owns this success more than Manning does. Vanney leaves and brings in to his team Vazquez, who has by all accounts a very decent year in LA in a supporting role. Manning without Vanney brings in Dwyer…

Identifying targets, signing and managing contracts. Pretty poor overall. Vazquez to TFC was a massive success. Insigne, our thanks go to you Larry, but i think we all know Manning had little to do with that, it was about an open chequebook (but he did get it done, it's not nothing). Pozo is a bit of a complex story, a question mark, it all depends on what happens next. He cost a lot, $20M all in, he has been great at times, others not so much. Covid has also messed up the Pozo accounting. Against those two are many failures: a “head in the sand” stance on contract expiries, which led to the 2019 Gio/Altidore contract fire drills, and the 2020 Vanney departure. Then there’s van der Wiel, Aketxe, Dwyer of course….

Having a vision and judgment. This has been bad, and is getting worse. Manning doesn’t seem to understand enough about the business. The evidence for this is mostly highlighted above, but the capper is this Dwyer farce. Manning cannot have allowed TFC to have been in a position to have to give up a top Superdraft pick because we took a flyer on a player as meaningless as Dom Dwyer. Does the Board understand that the odds are something like 50/50 that in three years the player Dallas picks will be a more important on field contributor than Insigne? (No one is arguing that Insigne won't be selling more jerseys, though!)

The lack of vision is also what my problem was with the transfermarkt thing, Larry. Of course everybody in the TFC office uses transfermarkt, and other tools like it, every day, same as every team everywhere. But as an idea generating tool for the head of the business? TFC is the biggest spending team in MLS by far, and the head of the business should always have a decent idea of who might be available and who might make sense. It shouldn't just be a figment of my imagination that the head of TFC’s soccer business should be walking around with a top 10 target list in Europe. (Shouldn't you be able to call him on Christmas morning at 3am and have him rattle off, in his sleep, an informed, detailed discussion of all ten possible targets? Isn't that table stakes in this game?)

What made that transfermarkt thing even sillier is that contract expiries are only one piece of the puzzle, the world market mostly works on transfers 18 months out from expiries (something that eludes Manning, it seems, not withstanding the fact that Pozo and Yefe were ... transfers!) You paid a lot of money for those guys, that’s how they got here. Is it just possible that for $75M you might have done something different? Did you ask him? Now maybe you just told Bill to sign the best Italian on an expiring contract that he could , but if so, what does that say about your faith in him? (An objective observer might note that you could have potentially bought any of 20 world class players for that level of commitment.)

Worst of all is the people side. The key people Manning inherited are gone. Who has Manning hired or developed internally? Is there anyone? Doesn’t look like it from the outside. Does having the boss google for the answer, then telling people that is what you did, inspire the people who work for him? Nobody is going to want to work for anyone who isn’t helping them be better or they cannot really learn from. The younger people should be doing the database searches but you, the boss, should bring it all together, the judgment, the connections, the thinking based on decades of experience, to figure out the short list, and then to get to the answer. A lot of this is the part around fit (knowing people that you trust who know the player, style of play, family situation, etc). The Soteldo thing, anyone could see before he came that he might have trouble playing with Pozo, they play the same game. 20 people here did. What did Manning say to you about that before spending $6.5M on him? Anything?

Maybe I am wrong. Maybe all those things are actually happening behind the scenes here. You will all say they are if asked. Only you really know. But based on the evidence, it doesn’t look like it.

Finally, Manning is repeatedly papering mistakes with your money. Whether it’s the extra $2M needed to pacify Genk after triggering Poz’s release clause without talking to the club, or giving Curtis an extension and then firing him a few months later, or the bath you are about to take on Soteldo and Jozy … maybe a trend is emerging?

Manning is not doing enough of the things he needs to do well enough. It may be that you have given him too much to do. Maybe ask him to focus on things he has a track record of success in.


Respectfully…

Oldtimer
01-11-2022, 01:53 PM
I have to question his knowledge of soccer, his ego as he tried to will Seba to play out his contract like other north american sports - instead of addressing contracts like the rest of the world does.



He owns putting Curtis in charge, that's on him.

I don't blame him for gambling with Seba and losing. No regular league would have matched his salary from TFC. Who would think he'd want to go to a place like Saudi just for the cash where the quality of life is objectively very difficult for most westerners? (Seba hated it so much he fired his agent). Compare to Napoli who gambled much worse, trying to cut their captain Insigne's salary and losing him.

I'm on the fence about Manning. Not impressed but I'll give him a chance. Mainly he should let Bob Bradley do his job with adequate support.

FootBallAZ
01-11-2022, 02:23 PM
Hi Larry.

Some people here (well, me, anyway) think it’s time for Bill Manning to just 100% stuck to the business/admin side of TFC, and the Argos or whatever else you want him to do. That is a big, full-time job. Then give the soccer keys to Bob, and let Bill gracefully step out of the picture.

First off, I want to say that I think Bill Manning is an incredibly decent person. My only interaction with him ever was in the line at YYZ to board the AC flight to Seattle on the Friday night before MLS Cup 2019. He was very gracious with myself and others.

I am not blind to his significant success here. Manning inherited a powerhouse on the verge, and he did a very impressive thing, he didn’t mess with it, and he got it across the finish line (mostly). He has a title, three Cup finals. Most important, his team came by far the closest of anyone in MLS history to achieving the MLS dream, which is, to walk into Mexico and beat their biggest and best teams in their fabled stadiums (which TFC pretty much did). I am sure I speak for most when I say we are all very grateful for this.
________

Intelligence, integrity and energy, all things I think Bill has, are the most important things in hiring senior people. Just ask Warren Buffett, you can look it up, he has said exactly that numerous times. Buffett once was asked a follow up question: how important is subject matter expertise? His answer was, actually not that important, because (i) I have lots of people in all my companies that have that, it's not that scarce, and (ii) if you get the right individual with the right level of intelligence, they will learn what they need to know.

Unfortunately I think Buffett was not 100% right about that, and I think Bill’s recent years here are evidence of this. Manning is having repeated serious problems on the soccer side, and isn’t learning from mistakes.
________

I think the head of the soccer operation (call him President, GM, Sporting Director, whatever) has more of less the following things to manage:


Hiring the manager/leadership of the team on the field
Running the youth development/academy system
College scouting for MLS draft
USL(and now CPL) scouting
Leading the pro scouting function (ie scouting other MLS teams for trades/signings)
Identifying targets, negotiating with, and signing players (and resigning players)
Having a vision for the future (who might come to MLS, and why, and when), watching for opportunities created elsewhere
Mentoring and building a team


It’s a huge, tough job. How do you think Manning has done? Here is my take:

Hiring the Manager/Leadership. This has been pretty bad. Curtis and Armas were horrific grease fires. But Vanney's departure spoke also volumes. Greg left a job where he had near Wenger-like job security and status, and went into a situation with little/no job security (the GM at LAG that hired him is already gone). I get that Vanney went home, the pandemic was tough etc … but still, in retrospect, his leaving was a major warning sign. Greg obviously saw through Curtis, and the question for you is, fine, Manning got the Curtis hire wrong, but why didn’t Manning, even after two years, see what Vanney saw? How on earth could Manning give Curtis an extension in 2021? (BB looks like a much better hire of course but I really hope it is you and the Board that hired and will ultimately evaluate BB, and not just Manning.)

Youth Development/Academy. This has been a fail. Manning has had seven years to fix this. If there was one thing we all thought he could do, this was it. Ontario produces a ton of talent and virtually none of it winds up at TFC.

College Scouting/MLS Draft. This is also a fail. Who have we acquired in the draft over the last seven years? Alex Bono. That's it. Nobody in the last five years. We have been horrible at this.

USL scouting. Another fail. This is becoming a major source of low cost talent in MLS. But not for TFC.

Pro Scouting. This is not bad, sort of. TFC had been very good at this on Manning's watch. Laryea, DeLeon, going even back to Beitashour and Will Johnson. But it sure looks to me like Vanney owns this success more than Manning does. Vanney leaves and brings in to his team Vazquez, who has by all accounts a very decent year in LA in a supporting role. Manning without Vanney brings in Dwyer…

Identifying targets, signing and managing contracts. Pretty poor overall. Vazquez to TFC was a massive success. Insigne, our thanks go to you Larry, but i think we all know Manning had little to do with that, it was about an open chequebook (but he did get it done, it's not nothing). Pozo is a bit of a complex story, a question mark, it all depends on what happens next. He cost a lot, $20M all in, he has been great at times, others not so much. Covid has also messed up the Pozo accounting. Against those two are many failures: a “head in the sand” stance on contract expiries, which led to the 2019 Gio/Altidore contract fire drills, and the 2020 Vanney departure. Then there’s van der Wiel, Aketxe, Dwyer of course….

Having a vision and judgment. This has been bad, and is getting worse. Manning doesn’t seem to understand enough about the business. The evidence for this is mostly highlighted above, but the capper is this Dwyer farce. Manning cannot have allowed TFC to have been in a position to have to give up a top Superdraft pick because we took a flyer on a player as meaningless as Dom Dwyer. Does the Board understand that the odds are something like 50/50 that in three years the player Dallas picks will be a more important on field contributor than Insigne? (No one is arguing that Insigne won't be selling more jerseys, though!)

The lack of vision is also what my problem was with the transfermarkt thing, Larry. Of course everybody in the TFC office uses transfermarkt, and other tools like it, every day, same as every team everywhere. But as an idea generating tool for the head of the business? TFC is the biggest spending team in MLS by far, and the head of the business should always have a decent idea of who might be available and who might make sense. It shouldn't just be a figment of my imagination that the head of TFC’s soccer business should be walking around with a top 10 target list in Europe. (Shouldn't you be able to call him on Christmas morning at 3am and have him rattle off, in his sleep, an informed, detailed discussion of all ten possible targets? Isn't that table stakes in this game?)

What made that transfermarkt thing even sillier is that contract expiries are only one piece of the puzzle, the world market mostly works on transfers 18 months out from expiries (something that eludes Manning, it seems, not withstanding the fact that Pozo and Yefe were ... transfers!) You paid a lot of money for those guys, that’s how they got here. Is it just possible that for $75M you might have done something different? Did you ask him? Now maybe you just told Bill to sign the best Italian on an expiring contract that he could , but if so, what does that say about your faith in him? (An objective observer might note that you could have potentially bought any of 20 world class players for that level of commitment.)

Worst of all is the people side. The key people Manning inherited are gone. Who has Manning hired or developed internally? Is there anyone? Doesn’t look like it from the outside. Does having the boss google for the answer, then telling people that is what you did, inspire the people who work for him? Nobody is going to want to work for anyone who isn’t helping them be better or they cannot really learn from. The younger people should be doing the database searches but you, the boss, should bring it all together, the judgment, the connections, the thinking based on decades of experience, to figure out the short list, and then to get to the answer. A lot of this is the part around fit (knowing people that you trust who know the player, style of play, family situation, etc). The Soteldo thing, anyone could see before he came that he might have trouble playing with Pozo, they play the same game. 20 people here did. What did Manning say to you about that before spending $6.5M on him? Anything?

Maybe I am wrong. Maybe all those things are actually happening behind the scenes here. You will all say they are if asked. Only you really know. But based on the evidence, it doesn’t look like it.

Finally, Manning is repeatedly papering mistakes with your money. Whether it’s the extra $2M needed to pacify Genk after triggering Poz’s release clause without talking to the club, or giving Curtis an extension and then firing him a few months later, or the bath you are about to take on Soteldo and Jozy … maybe a trend is emerging?

Manning is not doing enough of the things he needs to do well enough. It may be that you have given him too much to do. Maybe ask him to focus on things he has a track record of success in.


Respectfully…


very well written long but easy to digest.

You a writer or make business reports? lol

ag futbol
01-11-2022, 02:38 PM
Ensco I feel like you are going to get your wish but Larry isn’t going to do it. If you look at Manning’s track record he never plays his last role of the dice. He leaves before that happens.

I bet you he makes all the signings this off season, takes credit for turning things around (before the results are in) and uses that to get his next job. If he stays and we flop, he’s finished as an exec. If he leaves, he prolongs his career.

Leaving all that aside, the vision thing does trouble me a bit. His articulation of what he’s doing is so poor for someone of his position, makes you wonder if he knows what he’s doing. His story about Insigne makes it sound like he read he paper one day, clued into the fact Italians live in Toronto, and then decided this was his way to pick up ticket sales / satisfy his bosses. Let’s hope there’s more to it.

pekduck
01-11-2022, 02:39 PM
You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to ensco again.

Simply masterfully written.

Oldtimer
01-11-2022, 02:49 PM
I think the head of the soccer operation (call him President, GM, Sporting Director, whatever) has more of less the following things to manage:


Hiring the manager/leadership of the team on the field
Running the youth development/academy system

College scouting for MLS draft
USL(and now CPL) scouting
Leading the pro scouting function (ie scouting other MLS teams for trades/signings)
Identifying targets, negotiating with, and signing players (and resigning players)
Having a vision for the future (who might come to MLS, and why, and when), watching for opportunities created elsewhere
Mentoring and building a team




I mostly agree with your post, ensco, but I think the bolded areas should be delegated, not run directly by Manning.

ensco
01-11-2022, 03:01 PM
^^^Yeah agfutbol, mightydm also made a similar point a few days ago. Seems like a very good theory to me.

Red CB Toronto
01-11-2022, 03:28 PM
I mostly agree with your post, ensco, but I think the bolded areas should be delegated, not run directly by Manning.

From what I understood, he was suggesting that the lists responsibilities would be overseen by the proposed head of soccer operations rather than Manning.

ensco
01-11-2022, 03:39 PM
I mostly agree with your post, ensco, but I think the bolded areas should be delegated, not run directly by Manning.

Sure, but the thing is, Manning owns the outcomes, whether he hires someone to do them for him or not. The head sets the strategy, participates and approves the decisions, gets the applause, and faces the music.

In the specific case of Curtis, this is even more true - he had almost no managerial experience. If you left him alone to make big decisions, you don’t get to act surprised at what happens afterwards

(There can be extenuating circumstances- eg when a critical employee is hired away or gets sick)

Richard
01-11-2022, 06:29 PM
Manning's transfermarket comments are trending today on Soccer reddit.

These comments are gold. g:D

https://www.reddit.com/r/soccer/comments/s1b160/sasktoday_toronto_fc_president_on_insigne_i/


The big Sam scouting tactic


FM tactics right here lol.


Just load the editor and see which player has the highest PA lol


A lot of people in here laughing at this process, but this is an example of a hands-on president doing research. You may not agree entirely with the research (e.g, going off how marketable a player is vs. how good they are competitively), but damn a lot of clubs here could only dream of having management - a president no less - that was in-tune to the sporting side.


That's the kind of stuff you do as a kid, building a team writing on paper looking at transfermarkt


This is what I do on FM. Look at the NTs and throw money at end of contract players.


Crazy that nobody thought of this before. Outsmarted a whole continent of clubs.


Dude is playing fifa career mode in real life, Brand exposure +10

In all seriousness, Football manager has a very extensive database of players and many clubs use it.

Oldtimer
01-11-2022, 06:37 PM
Sure, but the thing is, Manning owns the outcomes, whether he hires someone to do them for him or not. The head sets the strategy, participates and approves the decisions, gets the applause, and faces the music.

In the specific case of Curtis, this is even more true - he had almost no managerial experience. If you left him alone to make big decisions, you don’t get to act surprised at what happens afterwards

(There can be extenuating circumstances- eg when a critical employee is hired away or gets sick)

Don't disagree there.

OgtheDim
01-11-2022, 07:14 PM
Manning's transfermarket comments are trending today on Soccer reddit.

.


Soccer reddit is filled with people who don't realise either

a) they really should be asking themselves the AITA question

b) even if they did, they would get the AITA response wrong

Richard
01-11-2022, 08:34 PM
Soccer reddit is filled with people who don't realise either

a) they really should be asking themselves the AITA question

b) even if they did, they would get the AITA response wrong

Sorry, but you lost me lol. :noidea:

Had to google what that is....did not know there was whole sub section for that.

Mr. Inbetween
01-12-2022, 08:00 AM
I agree whole heartedly with how this went down , this basically fell on Manning, and that Gattuso is hilarious. Well written Mr In between , sounds like you got this Manning joker all figured out.


^^My favourite type of post: a credibly explained, highly speculative theory about what happened!

Section 223 and ensco, as a newbie I appreciate the comments and welcome the kind feedback.
Section 223... IMO the best 'seats' at BMO; vantage wise. Certainly miss the view from the West Stands towards the east and of Toronto's cityscape since the East Stand upgrade.
ensco... my catalyst, wait until you read my speculative post about MU/MLSE/TFC/BOGERS. Collecting my thoughts on the matter; hopefully... one day... soon.
ensco what you said, what you apologized for ... I think you have an idea about my feelings and position.

Mr. Inbetween
01-12-2022, 10:14 AM
Hi Larry.

Some people here (well, me, anyway)...



...and me...

Boy oh boy, ensco, man on man, step away from the board for a day... talk about going for the jugular!
What happened to the other thread, other day's, am paraphrasing...
'Let me collect my thoughts on Manning, maybe, sometime later, in an appropriate thread, I'll let everyone know what I think'.
Thoughts quick and aplenty. Do not disagree. Well stated.

Points by Oldtimer, as well as, ag futbol, MightyDM, about delegating... sure... agree with...
But in the end, when your the guy, with a team of underlings, you must supervise meaningfully...
It's macro-manage v micro-manage, trust but verify, delegate with oversight.
Manning on occasions seems to wander from this corporate principal for whatever reasons.
In the end, his fiefdom, his head... he is responsible.

Mr. Inbetween
01-12-2022, 10:24 AM
Manning's transfermarket comments are trending today on Soccer reddit.

These comments are gold. g:D


Soccer reddit is filled with people who don't realise either

a) they really should be asking themselves the AITA question

b) even if they did, they would get the AITA response wrong

Richard great post.

OgtheDim, lol, AITA was the registered user name I was originally going to go with for this RPB Forum. :)

Thrillos
01-12-2022, 07:05 PM
I am surprised at how much people put on Manning for responsibility. This is corporate, there’re RACI models for a reason. The President is not Responsible for everything. There is an entire team of back office people driving a lot.

For example Manning is not responsible for the academy. He says “make sure we have good players” and then is Informed of progress. There is an entire structure in the academy alone filled with people Responsible and Accountable for various aspects of it.

Grouping the GM and President as the same role is like saying the CEO is just as responsible for all of the COO’s responsibilities. Just doesn’t happen. The CEO (president/manning) brings in a COO (GM/sporting director/Curtis/Bb) to manage the operations.

If the operations start to fall apart, it is the CEO’s responsibility to reassess who is responsible for it. In the same way you don’t fire the COO for bringing in a sales person. You don’t fire the CEO for bringing in a bad COO. You fire the COO if he brings in an entire team of bad personnel. And you fire the CEO after he brings in an entire bad team of executives.

To me, we have to judge manning on the big picture exclusively and we start to assess him if BB shits the bed as much as Curtis did.

I agree with the review, I guess I just think it should be directed to Curtis and others in the back office. Manning saw what we started to see, waited too long though, then acted to correct.

TheGoodson
01-12-2022, 10:20 PM
Plus Manning is the president of the Argos…

duel role provides more security for the botch Curtis hiring and the attempted retool of an aging squad