TFC 2018-2019 player off season moves/speculation/rumours

[Oldtimer]

TFC 2018-2019 player Off-season moves/speculation/rumours
Post your speculation/information/etc. here in this thread!

Confirmed (by traditional media or the club) signings can get a separate single thread. All other "inside" and other information goes here.

[Auzzy]

Hey, two days early! :rolleyes:

[PizzaEatingYeti]

Even three days early... could have been posted Monday, October 29.

:scarf::drum::canada:

:drinking:

[Voodooman]

First Page hype!

Well we know this will become an active thread at least as there should be a lot to discuss!

[PizzaEatingYeti]

First Page hype!

Well we know this will become an active thread at least as there should be a lot to discuss!

For sure!
If we won't have a lot to discuss it means that the 2019 season too is in big trouble.

[Areathrasher]

Time to regain the off-season champions crown

[Jack]

Beyond the obvious "everywhere", what would you say are priority areas to reinforce?

The medical staff and field come to mind...

We need to shore up the defensive midfield spot and Bradley needs to take some rest. I think a lot of his miscues come when he's played a lot and is not as sharp.

The defense needs some help, although health was a huge factor there and this is MLS, so quality defensive depth is a luxury for most teams. When healthy, Mavinga and Moor still make for one of the best pairings in the league. Add VDW in there and I think a back three like that should be solid, if we continue to play a back three.

Vazquez and Altidore are huge for us and the drop-off when they aren't playing is also huge, so we need some sort of offensive backup for those guys, both in personnel and tactics.

My thoughts so far...

[paul-collins]

I can't see any fault in your logic, Jack

[Richard]

Continuing the discussion from the closed thread.

Graham Zusi in 2010 was in MLS 1.0, and really things didn't change until 3-4 years ago. Chapman has an uphill task.

[ensco]

Economic considerations, long missing from the equation, are coming back.

Its not obvious to me that TFC’s $100M spend on DPs over the last 5 years will be seen as successful by MLSE. The club has not moved the ratings needle much (aside from the biggest games).

[backbeat]

Economic considerations, long missing from the equation, are coming back.

Its not obvious to me that TFC’s $100M spend on DPs over the last 5 years will be seen as successful by MLSE. The club has not moved the ratings needle much (aside from the biggest games).

unfortunately that was also affected by a horrible year - if TFC was still around the top of the league and in a solid playoff position they would have continued to grow interest. Even the various media scribes that began noticing, talking and writing about them for the first time dropped off this year.

anyway my 2 cents, as my broken record continues to say, we need first and foremost a solid, big, fleet-of-foot, commanding CB combined with a rested healthy roster.

[BenRhodes23]

I think we need at least 1 centre-back, a left back, an attacking midfielder (unfortunately I think Vazquez is done because of his injuries, maybe he gets a bench role but we could use the TAM), at least one striker, 2 if Jozy leaves (I doubt he will).

I also think we need to give Endoh another chance if he continues to play like he did for TFC II this year.

[Bobo]

Willing to give Bono another go. Irwin wasn't close to providing value for his wage, bye bye.

Two CBs are a must, ship the nephew out and let Hagglund work his way out from the bottom. At least one must be starting material, Moor is a question mark for next season. Wasn't a fan of VDV, would not be sad to see him cut for someone who is better value for 800K. Retain Auro if he wants to stay. Could do with a better LB backup than Morgan.

Finally find a proper defensive midfielder to ease the pressure off Bradley. I can't even blame Bradley for being so poor. Wouldn't be opposed to seeing him fill the No. 8 role if they can land a starting-calibre CDM. With Oso's extension, not sure how much money will be left to take another punt on a creative mid. Hopefully, Bez can find a way to get Aketxe off the books permanently. Praying Vazquez can sort himself out this offseason.

Assuming Jozy leaves, there will obviously be a significant hole to fill at striker. I expect his replacement to command a lower salary.

[BenRhodes23]

Willing to give Bono another go. Irwin wasn't close to providing value for his wage, bye bye.

Two CBs are a must, ship the nephew out and let Hagglund work his way out from the bottom. At least one must be starting material, Moor is a question mark for next season. Wasn't a fan of VDV, would not be sad to see him cut for someone who is better value for 800K. Retain Auro if he wants to stay. Could do with a better LB backup than Morgan.

Finally find a proper defensive midfielder to ease the pressure off Bradley. I can't even blame Bradley for being so poor. Wouldn't be opposed to seeing him fill the No. 8 role if they can land a starting-calibre CDM. With Oso's extension, not sure how much money will be left to take another punt on a creative mid. Hopefully, Bez can find a way to get Aketxe off the books permanently. Praying Vazquez can sort himself out this offseason.

Assuming Jozy leaves, there will obviously be a significant hole to fill at striker. I expect his replacement to command a lower salary.

I think Hagglund could end up on FC Cincinnati. His hometown team. Especially if we get 2 new CBs. I think I heard during the last TFC game on TSN that Gregory van der Wiel would be willing to become a CB full-time. He's been better there than at RB, and it would also allow Auro to get some good minutes

[OgtheDim]

Get rid of that stupid Bud thing they have in the North West corner. Their brewery in London don't do craft beer.

[notthesun]

I don't know if I'm alone on this but I am fine with our DM situation because I think Fraser is more up to it than people realize. He's just behind a soccer android that plays every minute of every game.

I would bring in a box-to-box player first to challenge Delgado before looking at DM.

Priority list for me:

1. TAM CB
2. DP Striker (assuming Jozy leaves)
3. Flexible midfielder that is primarily box-to-box but enough creativity to fill in for Vazquez when needed (basically Aketxe, but good)
4. Bench CB
5. Bench LB (just trade for Edwards)

[ag futbol]

Continuing the discussion from the closed thread.

Graham Zusi in 2010 was in MLS 1.0, and really things didn't change until 3-4 years ago. Chapman has an uphill task.
No argument there. Just stirring the pot.

[ensco]

unfortunately that was also affected by a horrible year - if TFC was still around the top of the league and in a solid playoff position they would have continued to grow interest. Even the various media scribes that began noticing, talking and writing about them for the first time dropped off this year.


No, I don’t think that's it. The interest wasn’t there when we were good either.

1) The strategy isn’t working

This is a story that really caught my eye when it came out. I bookmarked it at the time.
https://www.citynews1130.com/2017/08/08/toronto-fc-success-drives-up-ratings-while-struggling-jays-numbers-drop/

We were a stunning and entertaining team averaging 90K last year in TV ratings (I think it wound up at 94K). That is pathetic (in corporate speak). Then we followed up MLS Cup by trying but failing to replace BMO as the jersey/stadium sponsor.

That is not success. That is not the vision Leiweke sold.

(Sure we get 1M plus for MLS Cup or a Toronto-Montreal ECF. But that isn’t the metric to focus on. Those are rare events.)

We spend and lose a lot of money, and it’s not clear you need to, many good teams don’t (anyone so inclined, please spare me the SUM digression, that is a separate business, spending on MLS players has zip to do with SUM)

Also beware arguments about “asset value” building strategies, that growth is happening for expansion values and teams that don’t spend, just as much as they are for teams that do spend.

2) I don’t think the financial health of the league is all that great. Rising expansion values are about the financial health of the super rich, not the intrinsic business dynamics.

This talk of cutting back the third DP is a warning sign, as is the pace of expansion. They are using expansion fees to run the league. I and the other longtimers have lived this movie plot line once before.

All that to say, methinks an ill wind this way blows.

[Oldtimer]

This talk of cutting back the third DP is a warning sign, as is the pace of expansion. They are using expansion fees to run the league. I and the other longtimers have lived this movie plot line once before.

All that to say, methinks an ill wind this way blows.

I don't think it's all that bad for the league (I do agree with you that TFC has not given MLSE a return on their money).

I remember the original NASL too. The "expansion fees to run the league" was really a problem with them near the end. Basically anyone with $100,000 could get a franchise. I don't think MLS has been anywhere as rash, they are much pickier about ownership. You also can't separate SUM from the equation. Owning an MLS franchise gives the owner/operator a share of SUM's tv revenue. This is what is really driving interest in the league. No different than the EPL, which loses money at the gate, but gains money through TV.

Finally the proposal to eliminate the 3rd DP is a perfect example that MLS' structure is working exactly as it is supposed to, and that is a safeguard. One of the major factors in the NASL collapse was out of control spending; the single entity can make rules to reign that in, even abolish all DPs if necessary.

[ag futbol]

I don’t know why anybody would think this was going to turn into an overnight ratings success. If the focus was supposed to be TV they failed before they even started. Time slots and telecast quality are inconsistent and frequently su-par. If the mission was building goodwill and future generations of fans I think they did a great job.

General interest and awareness of the team has grown tremendously in recent years. I find it hard to characterize that in a sentence or two but I see many signs of it.

Maybe that’s not smart money or quick returns but I consider myself lucky as a fan they are doing it.

[ensco]

The SUM thing is a distraction and is NOT strategic to MLS.

SUM is simply a rights holder. The linkage that arises is between the USSF and the SUM/MLS entities. Which means the USSF boss the league on lots of issues (like international dates, or also Canadian domestic status, for instance!) in return for helping them get international broadcast rights.

The owners of MLS could close down MLS and keep operating it SUM. But then they would probably lose rights over time. question is whether that is inevitable anyway - the whole SUM thing stinks

https://www.si.com/soccer/2018/01/25/sum-soccer-united-marketing-garber-gulati-carter

[ag futbol]

I know someone else had mentioned Waston (meh) but I think there are some other decent parts on that Vancouver team we could benefit from picking the carcass of.

Reyna would be a great fit. Very fast, plays as either a #10 or a full-out striker. Salary very reasonable for what he provides (near max money, low TAM).

Maybe a few others who would slot further down the depth chart.

They are a flawed team but always put a premium on speed. Something we sorely lack and needs to be addressed in the off-season.

[ensco]

I want to go for it again in CCL. I sense that maybe most don’t, so let’s discuss.

CCL was worth it. You know why it was worth it?

I am watching the Clasico as I type this. Imagine watching this game because you are scouting the game for the Club World Cup in a few weeks. We came within a whisker of that.

We are a club that didn’t even exist a dozen years ago.

[Smokecell]

I want to go for it again in CCL. I sense that maybe most don’t, so let’s discuss.

CCL was worth it. You know why it was worth it?

I am watching the Clasico as I type this. Imagine watching this game because you are scouting the game for the Club World Cup in a few weeks. We came within a whisker of that.

We are a club that didn’t even exist a dozen years ago.

Wholeheartedly agree...it's tough given the rules limit the available depth but I agree we have to go for every trophy available to us.

[69Chevy396]

Signing Seba to a long term contract should be priority #1

[Canary10]

I want to go for it again in CCL. I sense that maybe most don’t, so let’s discuss.

CCL was worth it. You know why it was worth it?

I am watching the Clasico as I type this. Imagine watching this game because you are scouting the game for the Club World Cup in a few weeks. We came within a whisker of that.

We are a club that didn’t even exist a dozen years ago.

In retrospect I don’t think it was worth it. We need better balance next year, and should never assume you can give away 5 or 6 MLS games and still make the playoffs. MLS is still the bread and butter. That said this year was a particular moment that doesn’t come around often. I don’t blame them for going for it. I just don’t want to do it that way again.

[OgtheDim]

Based on what we saw tonight, Hernandez is gone for sure & probably Haglund. Jozy being the only player NOT out on the pitch after the game was a bit startling too.


Seba's reactions all game were those of a player who knows this game didn't mean that much except professional pride. Its the right attitude to have. When he scored, Seba didn't really celebrate as much as exhale knowing his work was done. I'd like to see more of that European champions approach - you are there to win, not just to participate. I think he stays - maybe for less money but he stays.

I also think Janson might have just played himself into a contract tonight - his work rate is phenomenal and he does pull players away from Seba like nobody else on this team but Jozy. If he can score like he did tonight (the second goal looked easier then it actually was) and maybe bag 10+ a season, that would be enough. I love Jozy but if he is moving on, Janson is a good replacement. (assuming we have 3 DP's still)

[Auzzy]

I also think Janson might have just played himself into a contract tonight - his work rate is phenomenal and he does pull players away from Seba like nobody else on this team but Jozy. If he can score like he did tonight (the second goal looked easier then it actually was) and maybe bag 10+ a season, that would be enough. I love Jozy but if he is moving on, Janson is a good replacement. (assuming we have 3 DP's still)

I would still be worried about a lack of height in that case. Jansen jumps quite well, but he's just 5' 7". If teams defending us know they never have to worry about a high cross, it makes us easier to defend. Also a lack of hold-up play, and no tall target to receive the occasional long ball / goal kick out of the back. Lining up like that now & then is fine, and I love Jansen's speed & hustle, but depending on that lineup all season is risky IMO.

[OgtheDim]

Good point - Atlanta doesn't have much height up front either to be honest. (Almiron is 6 foot 1 and probably the tallest guy up there) And it hurts them too. They tried using Kenwynne Jones last year but it just didn't work.


**********

Saw a stat on twitter tonight.

TFC's goals for total this year was the second most in club history - only beaten by last year.

[TFC1154ever]

If they can get Janson to a TAM contract, I’d keep him(apparently TFC is trying to negotiate the buyout clause down). He can play as a winger, striker, or AM. And he’s only 24. Perfect guy to fill in if there are injuries anywhere or guys need rest. He can start or come off the bench. I’m praying both Hagglund and Zav are gone. Get 2 CB’s, Draft a CB at 6, and you also have VDW who can play back there. I’d be ok with just that. Resigning Janson and 2 CB’s.

Guys that need to go:
Irwin
Ricketts
Zavaleta
Hagglund
Morgan if he doesn’t take a paycut
Barkero (might be our buyout candidate)

Combined, that’s just over a million on the cap.

Half of that will go to Osario. The other half can go towards 2 CB’s. Bez said something about a youth fund of allocation starting this year, which is interesting.

The only guy that I want to put on this list, but will give the beginning of season to redeem himself is Bono.

[woolly]

I suspect they'll keep Janson and trade Vasquez. Much as VV is our best playmaker, I'm not sure he can stand up to the rigors of MLS travel and shitty pitches. On the other hand, a lot of Euro teams would take him with a much easier travel schedule and milder climate.

I hope I'm wrong.

[notthesun]

https://twitter.com/JohnMolinaro/status/1056911803156901888

https://twitter.com/JohnMolinaro/status/1056915291383324672

[reggie]

i do think MB and JA are overpaid.but they count has has non imports,you would most likely have to replace them with imports,that would weaken other postions on the club.i would sign all 3 if they could get them under 10 mil.

[Defoe]

https://twitter.com/JohnMolinaro/status/1056911803156901888

https://twitter.com/JohnMolinaro/status/1056915291383324672

Keep Giovinco, keep Drew Moor (as a back up, don't trust him to stay healthy) keep Bradley, keep Janson (if you can get him cheaper then the 3.7 million dollar fee)

Cut Vazquez, cut Altidore.

Bring in the following

new CB, new striker, new CAM.


---------------Giovinco - New Striker
----------------------CAM -------------
---------Janson---------------------Osorio
--------------------Bradley--------
---Morrow-Mavinga-New CB- Van Der Weil


Bench: Moor, Auro Jr, Delgado

[portu]

GK: Bono, Patterson-Sewel, Depth Keeper
RB: Auro, Bench Fullback
CB: Mavinga, VDW, TAM CB, Hagglund, Depth CB, Dunn
LB: Morrow, Morgan (reduced salary willing), Telfer
CM: Bradley, Osorio, TAM Box-to-Box CM, Delgado, Chapman, Fraser, Daniels
F: Giovinco, Janson, TAM Striker/Winger, Hamilton, Akinola

How I'd like to see things pan out this off-season.

I'd like a line up of Bono; Auro, VDW, Mavinga, Morrow; Bradley, TAM Box-to-Box CM, Osorio; Janson, Giovinco, TAM Striker/Winger

[notthesun]

I personally don't see Vazquez not being in the plans for next year.

[woolly]

Everybody here wants 3 more TAM players... CB, CAM and Striker. If we move Jozy, we only unload a certain amount of money. Where does the cap space for the other 1.5 TAM players come from (Assuming Moor doesnt take a huge cut on his contract)?

[Jack]

Vazquez is a key cog when healthy. We are much more dangerous when he's pulling the strings. I'm willing to give him another shot. Plus, he scored with his balls g:D

[ag futbol]

Vazquez is a key cog when healthy. We are much more dangerous when he's pulling the strings. I'm willing to give him another shot. Plus, he scored with his balls g:D
Key words “when healthy”. Unfortunately he’s not often healthy of late.

I’d be concerned about relying on that next year. We need healthy first choice players.

[Canary10]

Key words “when healthy”. Unfortunately he’s not often healthy of late.

I’d be concerned about relying on that next year. We need healthy first choice players.

I don’t understand this attitude. He had a run of an injury this season that he had surgery on. He has like four months for recovery now. Even said today he’d be playing if we were in the playoffs. We can’t let top players recover from surgery now before we kick their ass to the curb?

[reggie]

i highly doubt vazquez is leaving his points to minutes was fantastic this season..even with all injuries ..we scored a good amount of goals this season.the probs was defence and goal keeping i hope we move on from bono (should of sold him when we had the chance)another cb starter for sure moor has the backup..start working in dunn to replace zava or haggs

[TFC1154ever]

The only DP player that has any chance of leaving is Altidore, and I think even that is pretty low. This all depends on how much these DP’s want $$$. Vasquez isn’t going anywhere. I’d put my house on it. Now, if next season is the same as this season with injuries for him, then he will go. Remember, he played in 31 games last year.

[Voodooman]

I also want to know about Auro and Janson since both are on loan onto how much it will cost to keep them. That could greatly affect things as well.

[portu]

Key words “when healthy”. Unfortunately he’s not often healthy of late.

I’d be concerned about relying on that next year. We need healthy first choice players.
Yup. And the salary he's on can facilitate two TAM players on 750k.

[jabbronies]

GK: Bono, Patterson-Sewel, Depth Keeper
RB: Auro, Bench Fullback
CB: Mavinga, VDW, TAM CB, Moor, Hagglund, , Dunn
LB: Morrow, Morgan (reduced salary willing), Telfer
CM: Bradley, Osorio, TAM Box-to-Box CM, Delgado, Chapman, Fraser, Daniels
F: Giovinco, Janson, TAM Striker/Winger, Hamilton, Akinola

How I'd like to see things pan out this off-season.

I'd like a line up of Bono; Auro, VDW, Mavinga, Morrow; Bradley, TAM Box-to-Box CM, Osorio; Janson, Giovinco, TAM Striker/Winger

Drew moor is your 4th choice CB.
Hagglund is your depth.

[Jack]

I don’t understand this attitude. He had a run of an injury this season that he had surgery on. He has like four months for recovery now. Even said today he’d be playing if we were in the playoffs. We can’t let top players recover from surgery now before we kick their ass to the curb?

Agreed. He had a tough time this year, but if he can recover and give us 30+ games, then he can be an MVP candidate again.

[Defoe]

We need a top CAM and top consistent CB more then anything.

Moor and Vazquez are so important to this team. When they are injured, this team is nothing. When this team had a healthy, productive Vazquez; this team was the best MLS team in history. Look at Atlanta with out Almiron. Terrible. I've said it once, i'll say it again! CAM, Striker and CB is the most important position in MLS. Therefore, Vazquez, Giovinco and Moor/Mavinga are most important in my view.

I like Janson, but does he really move the needle that much? Osorio? Delgado? Even Bradley and Altidore would be 4th and 5th most important.

I'd honestly decline Janson if it means we can find a CB else where. I'd also move Altidore if it means we can get a top CAM.

[magmadragon]

Jozy being the only player NOT out on the pitch after the game was a bit startling too.

According to a few players I spoke with, Jozy is somewhere in the US recovering from foot surgery that he had last Thursday. Given that he's such a man of the people, I'm sure he would have been there as well if he could.

Believe me, I was fucking bummed as I wanted to get my jersey signed. I spent a lot of time at the stadium yesterday lol.

[TFC1154ever]

We were tied for 7th in GF. We scored enough to to get into the playoffs comfortably. We let in the most GA in franchise history. That’s head scratching. Some of that is on Vanney, some of that is on Bono, and the midfield, but that’s mostly on Hagglund and Zavaleta. They both need to go. Hagglund regressed, and is the worst passing CB in the MLS. Zavaleta has always been below average. He was sheltered by Mavinga and Moor.

Either move GVW there, and sign 1 CB, which I think is going to happen, or sign 2 CB’s. That’s what needs to happen. All the other stuff is secondary.

[portu]

Drew moor is your 4th choice CB.
Hagglund is your depth.
Even if Drew Moor took a salary at or around 150k, he's not consistently healthy enough to warrant a spot on this team

[OgtheDim]

Everybody was healthy in 2017.

I wouldn't put much stock in rating consistent healthiness based on either 2017 or 2018.

[Hamilton_Red]

The immediate priority is centre backs. When Mavinga and Moor went injured it was before the trade deadline. We should have signed Short term backup to save the season. Not fixing the CB position was the root cause of our season. It got so bad - it affected Bono’s confidence. I’m worried about relying on him going forward. A new too class CB and keep Moor and maybe Haggland. Zavs should be traded.

I’d alao give some thought to Morrow. You need to be sure that he will gwt back to his best form. I was a ahadowbof his 2017 self.

[Blindside16]

So a quick look on Transfermarkt shows that Janson, Delgado, Zavaleta, Auro, Ricketts, Morgan, Irwin, Chapman, Moor, Hamilton, Hernandez Fraser, Patterson - Sewell, Akinola and Daniels are all out of contract at the end of the calendar year. The 2 most obvious factors here are that 1) Moor has an option for next year and 2) Auro has the option to buy. Outside of them I can only see them really making a move on Fraser, Janson (if we can get him at a reasonable price) and maybe Delgado. Hopefully Aketxe agrees to terms with the club he is on loan too and his salary will come off the books as well. That all together would free up $2.6 million in salary.

[portu]

The immediate priority is centre backs. When Mavinga and Moor went injured it was before the trade deadline. We should have signed Short term backup to save the season. Not fixing the CB position was the root cause of our season. It got so bad - it affected Bono’s confidence. I’m worried about relying on him going forward. A new too class CB and keep Moor and maybe Haggland. Zavs should be traded.

I’d alao give some thought to Morrow. You need to be sure that he will gwt back to his best form. I was a ahadowbof his 2017 self.

The thing about Morrow is that even if he isn't scoring goals the guy is still defensively very very good and can fill in at CB and LM.

[ensco]

I still think Hagglund can play CB for years in MLS. He has a ton of physical skills. More of a classic 4-4-2 English CB, 3-5-2 emphasizes mobility and distribution.

Suspect he will do it somewhere else. I bet Cincinnati snaps him up, he is from there.

[Initial B]

I think Hagglund would jump at the chance to move home since he's won the treble here already. However, I'd keep him over Zavs as he's half the salary and has a good aerial presence. Definitely a 3rd or 4th CB though with VdW as the other reserve CB. Mavinga starts, Moor stays at a lower salary as reserve, and another top-notch CB to pair with Mavinga. Bradley probably has at least another year at DM but they need another young understudy if Fraser is not his successor. Hopefully Vasquez recovers his form but we'll probably need another young backup if he goes down again. Jansen might replace part of Jozy's production, but a big CB would be helpful as a like for like replacement and also as the CF in a 4-3-3, if that's the way Vanney wants to roll the team next year.

[Defoe]

The immediate priority is centre backs. When Mavinga and Moor went injured it was before the trade deadline. We should have signed Short term backup to save the season. Not fixing the CB position was the root cause of our season. It got so bad - it affected Bono’s confidence. I’m worried about relying on him going forward. A new too class CB and keep Moor and maybe Haggland. Zavs should be traded.

I’d alao give some thought to Morrow. You need to be sure that he will gwt back to his best form. I was a ahadowbof his 2017 self.

In an amazing world you would have 8 quality defenders to get through all competitions.

IN MLS I would be happy with 6.

1. Mavinga, 2. Morrow, 3. Moor, 4. VDW, 5. NEW CB (1,000,000) 6. NEW CB(300 K)

Squad rotation (less then 15 games) 7. Auro Jr, 8. Hagglund.

Gone as far away as possible: Zav and Hernandez

[Derko]

GK: Bono, Patterson-Sewel, Depth Keeper
RB: Auro, Bench Fullback
CB: Mavinga, VDW, TAM CB, Hagglund, Depth CB, Dunn
LB: Morrow, Morgan (reduced salary willing), Telfer
CM: Bradley, Osorio, TAM Box-to-Box CM, Delgado, Chapman, Fraser, Daniels
F: Giovinco, Janson, TAM Striker/Winger, Hamilton, Akinola

How I'd like to see things pan out this off-season.

I'd like a line up of Bono; Auro, VDW, Mavinga, Morrow; Bradley, TAM Box-to-Box CM, Osorio; Janson, Giovinco, TAM Striker/Winger

The 2 in red have no business being in the first team, keep them at TFCII or just get rid of them, as well as Zavaleta, my opinion

[Oldtimer]

Don't forget that TFC will get allocation $$$ for missing the playoffs PLUS allocation $$$ for being in the CCL. Plus there's the annual bump-up in the salary budget under the CBA.

The salary budget will be significantly higher this year without shedding anyone. If TFC trades/drops a few players on top of that they can improve the team in those weak areas.

[jabbronies]

Even if Drew Moor took a salary at or around 150k, he's not consistently healthy enough to warrant a spot on this team

The guy only had 1 other major injury in his entire career (14 years, 364 regular season games)prior to last year. How is that consistently not healthy enough? Not healthy enough for the bench?

Good lord

[jabbronies]

Don't forget that TFC will get allocation $$$ for missing the playoffs PLUS allocation $$$ for being in the CCL. Plus there's the annual bump-up in the salary budget under the CBA.

The salary budget will be significantly higher this year without shedding anyone. If TFC trades/drops a few players on top of that they can improve the team in those weak areas.

Hernandez will be dropped.
Zavaleta should be dropped

[jabbronies]

I think Hagglund would jump at the chance to move home since he's won the treble here already.


What? Why do you say that? what's the reason other than he was born there?
Columbus is in such a state of flux why would any player want to go to that unstable environment?

The guy has an opportunity to play for trophies here. CCL is almost a guarantee if the team plays like it can. Columbus training facilities and amenities can't even compete with TFC's. He's a young guy in a young city with a crew he seems happy with.

I don't get why he would jump at the chance to move to Columbus?

[portu]

What? Why do you say that? what's the reason other than he was born there?
Columbus is in such a state of flux why would any player want to go to that unstable environment?

The guy has an opportunity to play for trophies here. CCL is almost a guarantee if the team plays like it can. Columbus training facilities and amenities can't even compete with TFC's. He's a young guy in a young city with a crew he seems happy with.

I don't get why he would jump at the chance to move to Columbus?

Cincinnati bro

[notthesun]

Bez and Manning speaking to media right now. Vanney soon. Rather than clutter this with a bunch of tweets I'll summarize.

Bez:

- We're going to take a close look at how we approach pre-season and crafting the schedule with the league.
- Discussions will be held with the DPs about their contracts (as per Joshua Kloke it sounds like these discussions haven't been had yet).
- Don't expect a massive overhaul in the roster.
- Really missed Moor and Mavinga. Need more consistency in defensive line and depth needs to be better when needed to step up.
- Off-season priority is "finding guys that can keep balls out of the back of our net".
- Talks about Aketxe's future are ongoing.
- Feels both Auro & Janson want to be back.
- Adding a CB during the summer window was never a consideration because the team thought they'd be getting Moor and Mavinga back from injury.
- Heading into next year the club has 13 guaranteed contracts, 11 options, 2 players out of contract, 1 free agent and 2 loan options. There are decisions to be made and some of these decisions will likely make room for needed roster upgrades.

Manning:

- We want to be a club that competes in multiple championships. We need to be better in rotating the squad. Larger base of available players will be needed.
- Last year the team had a singular focus: Win MLS Cup. We lost that singular focus after losing CCL.
- The team needs to get back to making defense a priority.
- Have to improve the defense; looking to bring in someone that can command the backline.
- Also want to add an attacking player; can't count on Osorio to have another goal-scoring season like this one
- We will be amongst the highest spenders in the league thanks to MLSE. They've given us the leeway to spend.
- Moor and Mavinga only played twice together all year.
- "Not at all" a discussion to bring in a new coach.
- Grass at BMO has already been ripped up. Hybrid pitch being installed. We made "a series of errors" in regards to the pitch that negatively impacted our players. Tried to grow grass at the end of last season instead of laying down sod, the CCL games at the start of the year really tore that up.
- We have to improve TFC II. Putting them in new USL League One gives them a better environment for success. They will be playing at the BMO Training Ground.
- No CCL matches at Rogers Centre.

Vanney:

- Learned a lot from last year, especially in regards to CCL. Need to find the right pieces this off-season, including in terms of character and leadership.
- Went to Mexico for pre-season to play good opponents and train at altitude, but the intensity at which you can train goes down. Will stay at sea level for this pre-season.
- We never really got healthy or built momentum this season.
- We need players that can play in wide areas. If you can't make opponents respect the wide areas, you can't play through the middle.
- We had a lot of blocks of playing six games in 18 days, more than anyone in league history. Risk of injury goes up 33% in those blocks. We were in a cycle of running players into the ground.
- Not been contacted about vacant U.S. men's national team job

Will continue editing as quotes come in

[jabbronies]

Cincinnati bro


oh right, those guys.

But still - most of what i said still applies. Maybe if his career stalls or TFC dump him, then sure, I could see him wanting to go there. But I don't see him jumping ship to go there. TFC isn't as shit as people make them out to be. This is no longer a place players are running from. They are running here.

[OgtheDim]

I'm pretty sure Haglund already knows he is going somewhere. He's likely been told he won't be left protected for the draft & probably been told Cincy has some interest.

The wistfull walk to the south end on Sunday after the shirt give away is the tell.

[Red CB Toronto]

What? Why do you say that? what's the reason other than he was born there?
Columbus is in such a state of flux why would any player want to go to that unstable environment?

The guy has an opportunity to play for trophies here. CCL is almost a guarantee if the team plays like it can. Columbus training facilities and amenities can't even compete with TFC's. He's a young guy in a young city with a crew he seems happy with.

I don't get why he would jump at the chance to move to Columbus?

I think when talking about Nick Hagglund going home, we are talking about FC Cincinnati, that’s how I would look at it, an expansion draft target.

[ag futbol]

From the presser today with management. They confirm they are after reinforcements in wide areas. Noted teams often defend us narrowly and hit on the counter.


Also: CB on the top of the list and likely multiple moves out / options not picked up with existing players.

[Oldtimer]

I'm pretty sure Haglund already knows he is going somewhere. He's likely been told he won't be left protected for the draft & probably been told Cincy has some interest.

The wistfull walk to the south end on Sunday after the shirt give away is the tell.

No way he'd be protected.

If he's picked in the expansion draft (no guarantee though) he'll be gone. Otherwise he could very well stay.
If I'm Bez I'd prefer the allocation $$$ you get for losing a player in the draft.

[portu]

If Hagglund leaves then I think Zavaleta will stay. After hearing the type of centreback they're after (vocal and a leader) it sounds like they want a Drew Moor replacement. There's no way they try to replace Moor, Hernandez, Hagglund, and Zavaleta. That's way too much turnover.

[ensco]

So who are we protecting? Kind of a key question.

Assuming that the rules are the same as last year (strangely there seems to be nothing on this out there, anyone know for sure?), we can protect 11 plus homegrown (Chapman, Morgan, Hamilton). GA excluded, but we have none of those...

“Obvious” (8):
Bradley
Giovinco
Osorio
Mavinga
Delgado
Bono
Morrow
One of Altidore/Janson (ie Janson only stays if Jozy is going)

“Tougher call (need to expose at least one)” (4):
Auro
Vazquez
Bakero
Hagglund

“Definitely exposed”:
Zavaleta
Ricketts
Moor
Irwin

————————

As others have speculated, I could easily see them exposing Hagglund here. I think it's between him and Auro, given comments today about needing wide players.

[Cas87]

So who are we protecting? Kind of a key question.

Assuming that the rules are the same as last year (strangely there seems to be nothing on this out there, anyone know for sure?), we can protect 11 plus homegrown (Chapman, Morgan, Hamilton). GA excluded, but we have none of those...

“Obvious” (8):
Bradley
Giovinco
Osorio
Mavinga
Delgado
Bono
Morrow
One of Altidore/Janson (ie Janson only stays if Jozy is going)

“Tougher call (need to expose at least one)” (4):
Auro
Vazquez
Bakero
Hagglund

“Definitely exposed”:
Zavaleta
Ricketts
Moor
Irwin

————————

As others have speculated, I could easily see them exposing Hagglund here. I think it's between him and Auro, given comments today about needing wide players.

As much as it seems to be both Zavs and Hagglund are on the outs, I personally feel that if Bez can work it out keeping Hagglund over Zavaleta and letting Moor have one more year to teach him how to lead the back line it will be worth it in the long haul. Hagglund has the tools to be within the Moor mould.

[ag futbol]

Why protect Janson? You can just want until after the expansion draft to formally sign him. If the other team swoops in they are left holding a worthless purchase option for well above market value.

[Red CB Toronto]

No way he'd be protected.

If he's picked in the expansion draft (no guarantee though) he'll be gone. Otherwise he could very well stay.
If I'm Bez I'd prefer the allocation $$$ you get for losing a player in the draft.

Same thing we said about Ben Spencer last year, still don't know why he was protected, who knows.

[notthesun]

Same thing we said about Ben Spencer last year, still don't know why he was protected, who knows.

Spencer was automatically protected as a Homegrown Player.

Our protected and unprotected players from last year are here: https://www.mlssoccer.com/post/2017/12/10/2017-mls-expansion-draft-protected-and-unprotected-lists

[ensco]

Why protect Janson? You can just want until after the expansion draft to formally sign him. If the other team swoops in they are left holding a worthless purchase option for well above market value.

Well, either there is a deal to be done for him in Argentina at a price that works for an MLS team, or there isn't. (The buyout clause isn’t relevant, if there is a deal it’s at a negotiated number that makes sense)

If I am Cincinnati, I can easily imagine that I might love to step into our shoes on that deal - in fact, it wouldn’t surprise me at all if that happens here. Could be a good value DP.

[notthesun]

Here are all our contract statuses which I just worked out according to the numbers Bez provided. Pretty confident these are correct, this includes everyone on our 2018 roster (here (https://www.mlssoccer.com/rosters/2018/toronto-fc)).

Under contract for 2019 (13 players):

- Giovinco (1 year left)
- Bradley (1 year left)
- Altidore (1 year left)
- Vazquez (multi-year extension signed beginning in 2018)
- Aketxe (assuming he was signed to a multi-year deal when bought)
- Mavinga (multi-year extension signed beginning in 2018)
- Van der Wiel (assuming he was signed to a multi-year deal when bought)
- Osorio (multi-year extension signed mid-2018)
- Morrow (multi-year extension signed beginning in 2018)
- Zavaleta (multi-year extension signed beginning in 2018)
- Bono (signed extension mid-2018)
- Fraser (signed Homegrown deal beginning in 2018, typically these are 2 years + an option)
- Akinola (same as Fraser)

Contract options for 2019 (11 players):

- Moor (re-signed for 1 year after 2017 season and it was announced to have an option for 2018)
- Hagglund (signed multi-year extension beginning in 2017, if it was a 2 year deal he'd be up for an option now)
- Irwin (re-signed beginning in 2017 and was listed as being under contract for last year's end-of-season contract announcement, so he'd be up for an option now)
- Delgado (same as Irwin)
- Morgan (here and below, process of elimination for those remaining in this category)
- Ricketts
- Baquero
- Patterson-Sewell
- Dunn
- Telfer
- Daniels

Out of contract (2 players):

- Chapman (had option exercised prior to start of 2018 season)
- Hamilton (same as Chapman)

Free agent (1 player):

- Hernandez

Loan options (2 players):

- Auro
- Janson

[TFC1154ever]

Well, either there is a deal to be done for him in Argentina at a price that works for an MLS team, or there isn't. (The buyout clause isn’t relevant, if there is a deal it’s at a negotiated number that makes sense)

If I am Cincinnati, I can easily imagine that I might love to step into our shoes on that deal - in fact, it wouldn’t surprise me at all if that happens here. Could be a good value DP.

You don’t have to protect loan guys. Cause Janson and Auro can just say no I’m not going there and their parent club will try to make a deal with Toronto. They don’t have contracts to tie them with Cincinnati. I think they protect Moor, and then either pickup his option, or rework his deal.

[stevep]

what is Manning talking about regarding bmo training ground for tfc 3?
i don't understand? where is this field? the ex?

[OgtheDim]

what is Manning talking about regarding bmo training ground for tfc 3?
i don't understand? where is this field? the ex?

TFC 2 is going to play up at the BMO training ground in Downsview as against at Lamport.

[ensco]

You don’t have to protect loan guys. Cause Janson and Auro can just say no I’m not going there and their parent club will try to make a deal with Toronto. They don’t have contracts to tie them with Cincinnati. I think they protect Moor, and then either pickup his option, or rework his deal.

No. I am pretty sure that is incorrect. TFC have the Discovery Rights to Janson and Auro. No one else in MLS can sign them until they are released/waived/etc

[DinamoTFC]

Kendall Waston wants out of Vancouver. anyone know what he gets paid?

I'd take him as hes strong aerially and scores often. Can be red card prone as well but with the right players around him maybe he'll have a better temperament.


Waston has tallied 14 goals and four assists in 114 regular-season games in Vancouver.

That's a heck of a lot of goals and not including his game winning goals for Costa Rica recently.

https://www.tsn.ca/i-want-to-leave-vancouver-whitecaps-captain-waston-looking-for-new-home-1.1201010

[reggie]

You don’t have to protect loan guys. Cause Janson and Auro can just say no I’m not going there and their parent club will try to make a deal with Toronto. They don’t have contracts to tie them with Cincinnati. I think they protect Moor, and then either pickup his option, or rework his deal.
if you heard bez today.he said they are probs not going to have a expansion draft.they will probably jus give more allo to cinci.

[ag futbol]

Why does everyone mention Kendal Waston? I’d much rather have Walker Zimmerman.

[Oldtimer]

if you heard bez today.he said they are probs not going to have a expansion draft.they will probably jus give more allo to cinci.

To me it soinded more like teams like TFC that lost a player to the draft last year will be exempted this year, which isn't at all the same thing.

MLS did list an expansion draft in their calendar, date TBD.

[Red CB Toronto]

TFC 2 is going to play up at the BMO training ground in Downsview as against at Lamport.

Yeah they are putting up a 1,500 seat or so stadium/grandstand. Figure it will be something modular, pretty simple. With the move up to the training ground, figure they have basically given up on any financial returns for the USL side. I wonder if they will even go through the effort of ticketing these games.

[Blindside16]

To me it soinded more like teams like TFC that lost a player to the draft last year will be exempted this year, which isn't at all the same thing.

MLS did list an expansion draft in their calendar, date TBD.

This would be nice but I doubt the league has put something in place. SKC lost a man in back to back drafts.

[Oldtimer]

This would be nice but I doubt the league has put something in place. SKC lost a man in back to back drafts.

Did you listen to the interview? It sounds like the owners are considering a change. Now whether that goes through is another thing.

[Oldtimer]

Would Waston be worth picking up? (ps the Whitecaps seem quite a mess)

https://www.cbc.ca/sports/soccer/mls/vancouver-whitecaps-captain-kendall-waston-1.4884976

[Still Kicking]

Yesterday, following on Twitter, the Vancouver Whitecaps post season press sessions (wow, what a mess of a team!), the name of Tim Parker came up. Questions on whether he forced the trade to NYRB for Felipe or whether front office wanted him gone arose. Have to admit that when I watched the replay of NYRB Orlando on DAZN Monday, the thought that TFC needs a Tim Parker type of player crossed my mind....

[Tunnelred]

I wouldnt mind picking up Waston. Waston - Mavinga CB pairing could be one of the best in the league. Would be interesting to see if Vancouver would trade to another Canadian team, but if the price is right, it’s worth a go.


Would Waston be worth picking up? (ps the Whitecaps seem quite a mess)

https://www.cbc.ca/sports/soccer/mls/vancouver-whitecaps-captain-kendall-waston-1.4884976

[ensco]

We made a decision like this by moving Beitashour for vdW and it became a major issue in terms of cap space.

I would seriously think about one more year of Moor/Hagglund at a combined cost of $400K than spend $700-800K (or more) on Watson and his backup, if Moor has a good bill of health.

We need to be careful here. These are all bets. Almost every one of them in 2016-2017 era paid off (eg Vazquez for Will Johnson, Ricketts for Herc Gomez), but then almost every one of them in 2018 didn’t. But that doesn't make them necessarily dumb bets. A smart person could put the same bet on in 2019.

You have an information advantage with Moor/Hagglund. You know what these guys can give you. You have a long history with the medical staff (so, hopefully, we get the best possible read on Moor)

I am not saying that we should keep Moor/Hagglund. I am arguing for recognizing the reasonable possibility that doing so is a reasonable bet.

[JonO]

We made a decision like this by moving Beitashour for vdW and it became a major issue in terms of cap space.
Agree with the rest of your post, but I thought the reason we moved Beitashour was because we had a cap issue. If I recall (and understand) correctly, we couldn't afford to offer him the raise he was looking for and stay under the cap, because he was an existing player. Because vdW was new to the league, we were able to use funny money to supplement his salary. So even though his cost us more, he counts less to the cap. If my understanding is wrong, then I really don't understand that decision...

[paul-collins]

JonO, that was my recollection as well.

[ensco]

^Beita claimed he was asked to take a pay cut, which offended him.

No matter what, that decision cost us big time in terms of opportunity cost, because we could have signed Beita at a slight raise and used the TAM elsewhere mid season. We shot our bolt on a risky play there.

But at the time, others were bringing in serious names (Barco, Kaku) and it rhymed with Vazquez for Will Johnson...

[ag futbol]

Some blurbs about continuing to extend Aketxe’s loan deal. Let’s all hope we get free of that deal. What a miss that signing was.

[Areathrasher]

Isn't he on a year long loan already?

[69Chevy396]

Waston for Osorio, would benefit both teams.

[Hamilton_Red]

Punt Zavaletta...sign Waston. If we are sure that Mavinga and Moor will be fit enough to play most of the season then that should be enough. Trading Jonathan for him would be criminal.

Surely there would be a CB coming through the development process?

[69Chevy396]

Punt Zavaletta...sign Waston. If we are sure that Mavinga and Moor will be fit enough to play most of the season then that should be enough. Trading Jonathan for him would be criminal.

Surely there would be a CB coming through the development process?

Waston for Osorio not that crazy. Two very good players. Vancouver won’t expect less for their star defender, and, after losing their best midfielder, would want Osorio. Who else do we have as a trade asset? Delgado? They are going to want a good starting player......besides, always trade a guy a year early, not a year late...Osorio may never have another 2018 season, and TFC desperately needs a player like Waston.
Besides. We saw the best of Osorio this year, and it was impressive. And, it made no difference in the end.

[Defoe]

CB is the obvious void management has talked about

But I didn't hear them talk about CAM. Can we survive another year with Victor Vazquez missing so many games?

[romburgundy]

Burn it down! Start fresh... park a bus outside and drive them all home!

[Ultra & Proud]

Waston for Osorio, would benefit both teams.
Possibly the dumbest post of the past few offseasons. Trade a guy on ascendency for a guy on the decline for as much money as you'd pay to get a guy from abroad that's younger. And without losing the only TFC player who had an improved 2018. That is 2011 logic. Bring back Mariner!

[ag futbol]

Possibly the dumbest post of the past few offseasons. Trade a guy on ascendency for a guy on the decline for as much money as you'd pay to get a guy from abroad that's younger. And without losing the only TFC player who had an improved 2018. That is 2011 logic. Bring back Mariner!
Okay, notwithstanding he generally has an axe to grind with certain players, I do worry we overpaid for a contract-year-performance.

Let’s hope it’s onward and upward from here. It’s not like management has shown to be overly sentimental when resigning guys. He’ll have to continue to put in the work.

[OgtheDim]

This trade significantly undervalues Osorio in the current market. He actually counts as a US domestic under the MLS rules that came into play a couple of years ago. FWIW, he was the top scorer in the CCL.

A lot of teams would take Waston. A lot more would take Osorio.


As for a CB coming through - nobody at the USL level so at least 2 years until somebody might be ready.


BTW, Waston isn't all that good a passer so he doesn't fit our style.

[notthesun]

Okay, notwithstanding he generally has an axe to grind with certain players, I do worry we overpaid for a contract-year-performance.

Let’s hope it’s onward and upward from here. It’s not like management has shown to be overly sentimental when resigning guys. He’ll have to continue to put in the work.

He's young enough that if he has a down year we can probably get out from under his contract by selling him to Mexico. Probably not for as much as we'd have gotten had we done it midway last season, but there's an out there I bet. Anyways, love Osorio and even if his goal scoring dips I think he can play up to his contract by being a guy you can count on every day.

[ensco]

This is bizarre. Offensive talent is more valuable than defenders. There is a massive falloff in value at age 30. Waston is the epitome of a rental.

The guy scored a goal in a World Cup game. That is very nice for him, but it doesn’t make him a special player

[Yohan]

What TFC is a younger version of Drew Moor with better passing. A CB who can organize the defence and can pass out of the back. Very few of those in MLS. Not many CBs who can pass out of the back in this league.

Mavinga has the physical tools, but I don't think he's a good organizer. Van der Wiel has been a FB most of his career, and considering how many times he's played CB for TFC this year, he's not a good organizer either.

Even a CB who can half decently pass the ball out of the back would push Bradley a little further up the midfield and not have him play sweeper role.

Waston isn't the CB TFC needs.

[ag futbol]

I’m telling you guys, Walker Zimmerman is that CB (depending on contract expectations). He’s been unable to reach a deal with LAFC and could be an absolute rock in the middle for years to come. It sounds like if this doesn’t work out he’s off to Europe.

Forget Waston, a guy who has discipline issues, can’t pass all that well, may well be a head case, and is 5 years older.

[portu]

I’m telling you guys, Walker Zimmerman is that CB (depending on contract expectations). He’s been unable to reach a deal with LAFC and could be an absolute rock in the middle for years to come. It sounds like if this doesn’t work out he’s off to Europe.

Forget Waston, a guy who has discipline issues, can’t pass all that well, may well be a head case, and is 5 years older.
This times a million

[woolly]

I agree with the above that don't rate getting an older guy with disciple issues (Watson et al) for a fullback, especially if it means giving up prime younger talent in the process. That's the TFC mentality that we had from 2008-2012, and look where that got us. Also, older guys get injured more often, and D has been a rough place to be for us.

For those that still advocate for blowing everything up, I ran the number based on todays released MLSPA salaries for the team. The difference between 2017 and 2018 was that injuries and the whiff of a signing of Aketxe cost us a full 25% of both our salary cap and team base salary. That is, 25% of our cap tied money went to guys that could not play due to injury. Unpossible to put together a winning team with that kind of handicap, in my opinion.

[Oldtimer]

I’m telling you guys, Walker Zimmerman is that CB (depending on contract expectations). He’s been unable to reach a deal with LAFC and could be an absolute rock in the middle for years to come. It sounds like if this doesn’t work out he’s off to Europe.

Forget Waston, a guy who has discipline issues, can’t pass all that well, may well be a head case, and is 5 years older.

Is Zimmerman a free agent, or do we have to trade something to LAFC?

[JonO]

Is Zimmerman a free agent, or do we have to trade something to LAFC?
Not sure exactly, but apparently his contract is up this year. He currently makes $235k and is looking for more than $530k (which would make him a DP or require TAM). The article I got this from is a bit old, so I don't know if anything has developed since

https://www.mlssoccer.com/post/2018/09/20/stejskal-walker-zimmerman-turns-down-latest-lafc-offer-weighing-europe

[69Chevy396]

Possibly the dumbest post of the past few offseasons. Trade a guy on ascendency for a guy on the decline for as much money as you'd pay to get a guy from abroad that's younger. And without losing the only TFC player who had an improved 2018. That is 2011 logic. Bring back Mariner!

Emotions do not play a role in business, particularly sports entertainment. Nowhere in my post did I write anything negative about Osorio. We watched him sputter, get benched, and improve very little, for years. In 2018, he had his opportunity, because players brought in to replace him in, were either hurt, or a disaster, which gave him his shot, and, he took it. How good a player he is, or can be, has a lot to do with who he is playing with. Surrounded by the likes of Seba, Vaz and Altidore, he stepped in nicely, making up for the disappearance of Delgado and Morrow. If you think, he will have another 2018, you are inferring that all those prior seasons were an anomaly, just part of his maturation. That may be true. I am more interested in knowing where he went in the final months, after signing his contract, because his production, while acceptable, certainly wasnt stellar.

TFC needs to correct the mistakes they made when shipping Beitishour and keeping Zavaleta and Morgan. If this guy Waston is as good a player as Mavinga, I would easily give up any of our non DP midfielders for him.

And, furthermore, you have persistently insulted me over the years. It is time for you to stop.

[Tunnelred]

You say he’s come good surrounded by Seba, VV and Jozy this season, but we played most the season without VV and Jozy was out for extended periods of time. If anything, he’s come good because he’s had to step in to the gap left by VV.

While i I do think his goal scoring this year is an exception, everything else he brings will more than likely still be about come next season. He’s not worth trading.

Also so his new deal kicks in next year. There won’t be many teams who will want to pick that up I’d assume.

[OgtheDim]

I’m telling you guys, Walker Zimmerman is that CB (depending on contract expectations). He’s been unable to reach a deal with LAFC and could be an absolute rock in the middle for years to come. It sounds like if this doesn’t work out he’s off to Europe.


Good call - was suggesting him 4 years ago when our best CB was Caldwell. Not sure we can afford him but he's what we need.

[ensco]

I don’t think Osorio is untouchable, I don’t think anyone is.

Oso for Zimmerman is the more realistic conversation. Not sure we or LAFC would do that, but Zimmerman is 25 and a domestic. Also the better player.

I’d prefer we keep Oso, but I accept Chevy’s point that emotion is clouding our judgment on Oso, at least a bit. Guilty!

[ag futbol]

Good call - was suggesting him 4 years ago when our best CB was Caldwell. Not sure we can afford him but he's what we need.
That may well be the problem. Perhaps the play is to find the next great American CB, as oppposed to the one everybody already recognizes the value of.

Won’t be cheap. But for a guy who could be your future captain, is domestic, and has a long runway in his career there is a lot to like.

[JuliquE]

Emotions do not play a role in business, particularly sports entertainment.
I don't agree with this statement; I think there are some contexts in which the two paths shouldn't cross (probably most), but I also feel like, in others, the two aren't mutually exclusive.

It shouldn't be your main guide, but I'm not sure it's completely wise to remove 100% of emotion from decisions to be made, when you have things like team chemistry to account for.

There's also something to be said for Oso carrying the flag as the sole Canadian to have EARNED a place in our starting eleven; I don't feel like we should look to be an all-Canadian side, but I do appreciate having some Canadian content, where they are deserving.

[69Chevy396]

I don't agree with this statement; I think there are some contexts in which the two paths shouldn't cross (probably most), but I also feel like, in others, the two aren't mutually exclusive.

It shouldn't be your main guide, but I'm not sure it's completely wise to remove 100% of emotion from decisions to be made, when you have things like team chemistry to account for.

There's also something to be said for Oso carrying the flag as the sole Canadian to have EARNED a place in our starting eleven; I don't feel like we should look to be an all-Canadian side, but I do appreciate having some Canadian content, where they are deserving.

I suspect, mlse will do whatever they can, to keep Osorio, for the reasons that you give. However, if the team believes it has another shot at contention, before losing our current designated players, than they will do what is needed to bolster our weaknesses, at least in the short turn. If, they go the trade route, I cannot think of any player more attractive than Osorio. If Waston isn’t available, perhaps another, highly rated defender. What are the options? What would Delgado, or Chapman, or Auro fetch? We don’t want to give up on Moor or Morrow, do we? The team can pick up another offensive piece, or two, and hopefully, get lucky like Atlanta did. Finding a star defender is much harder, and would require a bit of a sacrifice.
Otherwise, keep Osorio, keep Seba and Mavinga, start rebuilding, bust up the team abd work on a five year plan (that may be the preferred route).

[JuliquE]

I suspect, mlse will do whatever they can, to keep Osorio, for the reasons that you give. However, if the team believes it has another shot at contention, before losing our current designated players, than they will do what is needed to bolster our weaknesses, at least in the short turn. If, they go the trade route, I cannot think of any player more attractive than Osorio. If Waston isn’t available, perhaps another, highly rated defender. What are the options? What would Delgado, or Chapman, or Auro fetch? We don’t want to give up on Moor or Morrow, do we? The team can pick up another offensive piece, or two, and hopefully, get lucky like Atlanta did. Finding a star defender is much harder, and would require a bit of a sacrifice.
Otherwise, keep Osorio, keep Seba and Mavinga, start rebuilding, bust up the team abd work on a five year plan (that may be the preferred route).
Moor plus funny-money for Walker Zimmermann sounds interesting; obviously a HUGE sacrifice/gamble… but, as you say, always sell a year early, rather than too late—Moor, himself, said he'll take this off-season to try and get healthy enough to start consistently for 2019, AT LEAST (I think he knows the end is nigh, the way he emphasized that last bit).

Not sure how practical this is, but we might have the inside track on Zimmermann, given our "connections" to LAFC (Bradley, Beita, Kaye).

[Still Kicking]

Zimmerman is about to reach the end of his MLS contract, so LAFC won't be trading him.
According to the SB report, his agent is looking overseas, he wants to double his 250 grand contract.


https://www.angelsonparade.com/2018/9/20/17884192/transfer-rumor-lafc-walker-zimmerman-europe-interest-ligue-1-bundesliga-championship-premier-league

[ag futbol]

Maybe not “him” but his rights can still be moved within the league. In a convoluted, MLS kind of way.

Agent ploy looking overseas is par for the course (although i’d sssume legit interest). You’ll recall Osorio’s agent did something similar. It’s becoming more common since these guys need a way to put pressure on their current clubs since their ability to play MLS teams off against each other is limited.

[69Chevy396]

Okay, notwithstanding he generally has an axe to grind with certain players, I do worry we overpaid for a contract-year-performance.

Let’s hope it’s onward and upward from here. It’s not like management has shown to be overly sentimental when resigning guys. He’ll have to continue to put in the work.

People in MLSE working on analytics may focus on an Osorio factoid....after his contract, he was given a day off in Portland, then, proceeded in scoring one goal, getting two assists, and taking four shots on goal, in his last six starts.

[Red CB Toronto]

Would Oso not count as an international player for the US MLS teams? Don’t believe he has ever been considered a home grown player.

[DinamoTFC]

I’m telling you guys, Walker Zimmerman is that CB (depending on contract expectations). He’s been unable to reach a deal with LAFC and could be an absolute rock in the middle for years to come. It sounds like if this doesn’t work out he’s off to Europe.

Forget Waston, a guy who has discipline issues, can’t pass all that well, may well be a head case, and is 5 years older.

Didn't know Zimmermann is having contract issues. Thanks for this. He's definitely a good cb and would be a good pick up.

[paul-collins]

People in MLSE working on analytics may focus on an Osorio factoid....after his contract, he was given a day off in Portland, then, proceeded in scoring one goal, getting two assists, and taking four shots on goal, in his last six starts.
So since there were *9* games from Portland to the end of the season, what happened in the other three?

[Gringo Starr]

So since there were *9* games from Portland to the end of the season, what happened in the other three?

Actually 8 games after Portland but Oso didn't play in D.C.

So in 7 games played he got 1 goal and 2 assists post contract, goal and assist in same game so points in 2 out of the 7. Didn't have an impact down the stretch but was the man in CCL.

I think a TAM contract for Oso makes a number of people uneasy since he had one big year

[MightyDM]

“We need players who can play in wide areas” Raheem, and to some extent Hasler.

i agree, but many commented during the season that we had too many similar midfield players. We do. Players not built for wide areas.

Secondly, the reference to leadership in the locker room, and character, is very direct. I wonder who they are referring to. Would love to know.


Bez and Manning speaking to media right now. Vanney soon. Rather than clutter this with a bunch of tweets I'll summarize.

Bez:

- We're going to take a close look at how we approach pre-season and crafting the schedule with the league.
- Discussions will be held with the DPs about their contracts (as per Joshua Kloke it sounds like these discussions haven't been had yet).
- Don't expect a massive overhaul in the roster.
- Really missed Moor and Mavinga. Need more consistency in defensive line and depth needs to be better when needed to step up.
- Off-season priority is "finding guys that can keep balls out of the back of our net".
- Talks about Aketxe's future are ongoing.
- Feels both Auro & Janson want to be back.
- Adding a CB during the summer window was never a consideration because the team thought they'd be getting Moor and Mavinga back from injury.
- Heading into next year the club has 13 guaranteed contracts, 11 options, 2 players out of contract, 1 free agent and 2 loan options. There are decisions to be made and some of these decisions will likely make room for needed roster upgrades.

Manning:

- We want to be a club that competes in multiple championships. We need to be better in rotating the squad. Larger base of available players will be needed.
- Last year the team had a singular focus: Win MLS Cup. We lost that singular focus after losing CCL.
- The team needs to get back to making defense a priority.
- Have to improve the defense; looking to bring in someone that can command the backline.
- Also want to add an attacking player; can't count on Osorio to have another goal-scoring season like this one
- We will be amongst the highest spenders in the league thanks to MLSE. They've given us the leeway to spend.
- Moor and Mavinga only played twice together all year.
- "Not at all" a discussion to bring in a new coach.
- Grass at BMO has already been ripped up. Hybrid pitch being installed. We made "a series of errors" in regards to the pitch that negatively impacted our players. Tried to grow grass at the end of last season instead of laying down sod, the CCL games at the start of the year really tore that up.
- We have to improve TFC II. Putting them in new USL League One gives them a better environment for success. They will be playing at the BMO Training Ground.
- No CCL matches at Rogers Centre.

Vanney:

- Learned a lot from last year, especially in regards to CCL. Need to find the right pieces this off-season, including in terms of character and leadership.
- Went to Mexico for pre-season to play good opponents and train at altitude, but the intensity at which you can train goes down. Will stay at sea level for this pre-season.
- We never really got healthy or built momentum this season.
- We need players that can play in wide areas. If you can't make opponents respect the wide areas, you can't play through the middle.
- We had a lot of blocks of playing six games in 18 days, more than anyone in league history. Risk of injury goes up 33% in those blocks. We were in a cycle of running players into the ground.
- Not been contacted about vacant U.S. men's national team job

Will continue editing as quotes come in

[paul-collins]

Actually 8 games after Portland but Oso didn't play in D.C.
He played 90 in Campeones Cup as well. 2 shots on that game. That's the 9th game.

And if the complaint is about his shots, it was only the last three he played in that he didn't take a shot. It's not like he suddenly tapered off.

The framing of the argument - "in his last 6 games he only took 3 shots" - is deceiving. Until the last 3 he was statistically doing the same things. It's not like he signed his contract and quit playing. He had 3 games at the end of a dead season where he carried the team along with Giovinco and Bradley, where he didn't pad his stats.

[MightyDM]

Oslo had a fabulous year and demonstrated his quality. He earned the contract. I loved his play and I have always wanted him to succeed. But: given Manning and Vanney’s comments at the year end press conference, the contract is puzzling. They indicated that they are not depending on Oso to be as productive in front of the net next year, and that they need players who can add width (and I assume pace). Both make perfect sense and are consistent with what we have observed. But on the assumption that they signed Oso to keep him, the team is crowded with similarly skilled midfielders - Chapman for example is good on the ball but doesn’t give anything different really to Oso VV or Marky when he comes on, other than fresh legs, unlike Raheem or Hasler. Given the glaring need for a CB and for speed/ width, at least one of these players has to be going. I think it’s more likely to be Marky as he is American but it’s not out of the realm of possibility that Oso was signed to be sold. His technical skills might be valued elsewhere and he might be ready for an adventure.

[Gringo Starr]

He played 90 in Campeones Cup as well. 2 shots on that game. That's the 9th game.

And if the complaint is about his shots, it was only the last three he played in that he didn't take a shot. It's not like he suddenly tapered off.

The framing of the argument - "in his last 6 games he only took 3 shots" - is deceiving. Until the last 3 he was statistically doing the same things. It's not like he signed his contract and quit playing. He had 3 games at the end of a dead season where he carried the team along with Giovinco and Bradley, where he didn't pad his stats.

Ive tried hard to forget the Campeones Cup my bad on that.

I don't think he quit playing after signing the contract either but I do think he was less effective from September onwards, I thought he looked tired down the stretch-given his increased minutes this year not unexpected, he looked frustrated and with Janson on the pitch it seemed to me he was getting fewer touches.

[MightyDM]

Ive tried hard to forget the Campeones Cup my bad on that.

I don't think he quit playing after signing the contract either but I do think he was less effective from September onwards, I thought he looked tired down the stretch-given his increased minutes this year not unexpected, he looked frustrated and with Janson on the pitch it seemed to me he was getting fewer touches.

I think that’s fair. Bradley looked tired to me too.

[Oldtimer]

No way Osorio gets traded. He's only going to get better. Besides being a good player, his attitude is excellent, a real plus in the locker room.

Delgado and Irwin are the most likely players to get traded, both of them would be of interest to US teams.

[paul-collins]

Ive tried hard to forget the Campeones Cup my bad on that.

I don't think he quit playing after signing the contract either but I do think he was less effective from September onwards, I thought he looked tired down the stretch-given his increased minutes this year not unexpected, he looked frustrated and with Janson on the pitch it seemed to me he was getting fewer touches.
Fair comment, and that's the way I see it also.

[Areathrasher]

Reports in the Brazilian press say Sao Paulo are fully expecting TFC to execute their option on Auro. The price, at current exchange rates, is ~685,000 USD.

[MightyDM]

No way Osorio gets traded. He's only going to get better. Besides being a good player, his attitude is excellent, a real plus in the locker room.

Delgado and Irwin are the most likely players to get traded, both of them would be of interest to US teams.

Delgado possibly to get traded, yes. He has value. Irwin's stock may have declined.

[MightyDM]

Will be interesting to see if our new back three is Mavinga Morrow and. VDW

[notthesun]

I doubt we pick up Irwin's option. He'll go through the Re-Entry Draft (he's still 2 years away from free agent eligibility).

[langilleski]

I wonder if Havard Nordtveit is being looked at, there was the picture of Bez and the scout at Hoffenheim, and on the Come on you Reds pod they mentioned the two had been away for the month trying to improve the club. He mainly plays center back, but can slot into the right, and into midfield. He has only played 297 minutes this season.

[ag futbol]

Reports in the Brazilian press say Sao Paulo are fully expecting TFC to execute their option on Auro. The price, at current exchange rates, is ~685,000 USD.
Seems a bit high at face value. But, admittedly, he has potential and MLS purse strings aren’t as tight as they used to be.

Maybe this is the new normal?

[Areathrasher]

Seems a bit high at face value. But, admittedly, he has potential and MLS purse strings aren’t as tight as they used to be.

Maybe this is the new normal?

Yea, the fee plus salary is bit steep but MLS HQ will probably up TAM again in the off season. And then there is the rumored massive budget bump coming with the new CBA in 2020. So, meh, whatever.

[Oldtimer]

Reports in the Brazilian press say Sao Paulo are fully expecting TFC to execute their option on Auro. The price, at current exchange rates, is ~685,000 USD.

My understanding is that in Brazil, the "price" is a starting point for negotiations.

[reggie]

i think thats a bit high..hopefully they can get that down to about 400k..the clubs in SA are kinda desperate for cash these days.and i think they can amortize the transfer fee over the length of his contract?

[Hamilton_Red]

What do folk think of Bono? Will he bounce back after a confidence shattering season? That was the most goals conceded in franchise history if I am not mistaken.

I'd be pretty nervous putting all our eggs in his basket for next season.

[jabbronies]

Seems a bit high at face value. But, admittedly, he has potential and MLS purse strings aren’t as tight as they used to be.

Maybe this is the new normal?

He'll be learning from GvW and Morrow.
Both really good players to mentor him at his position.

As I've said many times before though - he needs to stay fit. otherwise - the price is too high

[jabbronies]

What do folk think of Bono? Will he bounce back after a confidence shattering season? That was the most goals conceded in franchise history if I am not mistaken.

I'd be pretty nervous putting all our eggs in his basket for next season.

Hopefully he does. I think this season was a wakeup call for him. He's good, but still has a lot to learn. When Drew Moor (or his replacement) comes back - he should do better.

[jabbronies]

Delgado possibly to get traded, yes. He has value. Irwin's stock may have declined.

No way - He's a USMNT player. Second string yes, but has potential to be first string if he has a development year like Osorio did this year.

[notthesun]

Reports in the Brazilian press say Sao Paulo are fully expecting TFC to execute their option on Auro. The price, at current exchange rates, is ~685,000 USD.

Not so fast?

https://twitter.com/joshuakloke/status/1058386864770551812

[OgtheDim]

Not seeing anything in that indicating anything beyond gratitude and "we will see".

Not revealing at all.

[Areathrasher]

Not so fast?

https://twitter.com/joshuakloke/status/1058386864770551812

Who know at this stage.

Below are what's been reported in Brazil

https://esporte.uol.com.br/futebol/ultimas-noticias/2018/11/01/sao-paulo-aguarda-canadenses-para-fechar-venda-de-jovem-por-r-22-milhoes.htm?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social-media&utm_campaign=esporte&utm_content=geral

http://saopaulosempre.com.br/2018/11/01/toronto-fc-devera-contar-com-lateral-auro-em-definitivo-em-2019/

[sidvan]

Osorio undergoing sports hernia op per newsflash from tfc

[notthesun]

Yeah... as long as some people are talking about Osorio's production late in the year, looks like he was playing through a hernia.

[Oldtimer]

Yeah... as long as some people are talking about Osorio's production late in the year, looks like he was playing through a hernia.

That makes his record even more impressive.

So all that speculation that he stopped scoring goals because he got the dollars can be put to rest.

[Defoe]

I like Auro. He's a pretty decent RB. You would think he would do even better in his second season and still very young. We need the depth too.

If MLS is not in a position where can have Auro as a bench player, we have a long way to go.

[Hamilton_Red]

I like Auro. He's a pretty decent RB. You would think he would do even better in his second season and still very young. We need the depth too.

If MLS is not in a position where can have Auro as a bench player, we have a long way to go.

Your absolutely right on that Defoe. He definitely should get a second season.

[gracos]

Is the 600k figure considered to be Auros cap hit or is that just the negotiating fee with club to consider extending a new contract

[69Chevy396]

That makes his record even more impressive.

So all that speculation that he stopped scoring goals because he got the dollars can be put to rest.

Why did Vanney put an injured player on the pitch during the playoff run?

[MightyDM]

No way - He's a USMNT player. Second string yes, but has potential to be first string if he has a development year like Osorio did this year.

Someone has to go in the midfield if we are going to add width at a starting level. Who will that be if it’s not Marky, MB, VV or Oso?

[OgtheDim]

Why did Vanney put an injured player on the pitch during the playoff run?


Players play with sports hernias - Mavinga played with one most of last season.

[Areathrasher]

Is the 600k figure considered to be Auros cap hit or is that just the negotiating fee with club to consider extending a new contract

transfer fee

[Still Kicking]

Muddling through our midfield could be the basis of off season mutterings galore.
To my mind VV and Marky Delgado are linked, VV can pursue attacking alleys and look towards freeing and feeding the strikers, because he knows that Marky Delgado will be the one to track back and foil counter attacks. VV does trackback, but he does not have to do it with urgency when he has Delgado able to fill the space behind him. When Delgado is on his game, he is forever back in our defending third and turning situations around. I am not saying that VV creates those situations, just inevitable that attacking forays do not always end well. You need someone to mop up.
Osorio is linked to Giovinco, he is second only to VV in knowing where Giovinco wants the ball. Or moving into opportunities that have been created by defenders over shifting to fend off Giovinco.
I think that tinkering with the midfield has to either reflect or enhance these balances. Move Delgado and you would need Osorio to play more of a trackback holding role. Move Giovinco and you can't expect Osorio to be Giovinco.
Maybe with Vanney talking about needing a wide player, Giovinco becomes a winger and a younger bigger stronger striker (too soon Ayo Akinola?) stays in the middle of the pitch???

[Oldtimer]

Why did Vanney put an injured player on the pitch during the playoff run?

Sports hernias aren't as serious as inguinal. They would just take the edge off his game.

[Areathrasher]

The Revs just announced their options and cuts for 2019. Maybe something released by TFC this week?

[Red CB Toronto]

The Revs just announced their options and cuts for 2019. Maybe something released by TFC this week?

I would believe so, there are 11 players that have an option on the contracts. Last year it was on December 14th, three days after the MLS Cup Final.

[Defoe]

Unload Vazquez
Unload Zavaleta

Trade for Higuain
Trade for Zimmerman


3-5-2

------------Giovinco-Altidore

-----------------Higuain

Morrow---------Osorio--------------Janson

----------------Bradley

Mavinga------Zimmerman----Van Der Weil

[OgtheDim]

Higuain ain't going anywhere. He's a Columbus lifer.

[MightyDM]

Sports hernias aren't as serious as inguinal. They would just take the edge off his game.


Agreed. Inguinal are what players dread.

[notthesun]

We're going to ditch Vazquez because of injury concerns so we pick up a 34 year old Higuain? lol

[Yohan]

We're going to ditch Vazquez because of injury concerns so we pick up a 34 year old Higuain? lol
I think Higuain will be good until he's 36 if he sticks to being a CAM (which he is for most part), but he's not a risk I want TFC to take.

And yeah, he's a Columbus lifer

[Yohan]

As for Zimmerman, seems MLS FO won't let LAFC re-sign him with TAM and Zimmerman has interest from Europe.

[langilleski]

Lots of news this morning of a new goalie on loan from Sao Paulo named Lucas Paes https://twitter.com/jvligero/status/1059787458903195648 (https://twitter.com/jvligero/status/1059787458903195648) Loan till the end of next season.

[Areathrasher]

This says we are loaning a 20yr old GK from Sao Paulo

https://www.lance.com.br/sao-paulo/sao-paulo-empresta-goleiro-para-toronto-promove-garoto-base.html


Revealed in the base categories of Sao Paulo, goalkeeper Lucas Paes was loaned to Toronto FC until the end of next season. The young player, just 20 years old, was the third reserve in the position and still had not won opportunities in the Morumbi Tricolor. To replace the vacancy, the technical commission promoted the boy Dennis Júnior, who trained in the CT of Cotia and was part of the under-23 squad.

Apparently he is already in the city too

[ensco]

The Higuains and Piattis and Alonso’s of the world aren’t “traded”. Those guys will only move if they want to.

MLS may allow players to get traded, but there is a limit. It is about respect, and if you allow a team to forceably move a signature veteran against his will, you are violating a core code element of world football.

[ag futbol]

I would assume that signals the end of Irwin... give the guy some credit, he’s been a good servannt to the club.

[portu]

The Higuains and Piattis and Alonso’s of the world aren’t “traded”. Those guys will only move if they want to.

MLS may allow players to get traded, but there is a limit. It is about respect, and if you allow a team to forceably move a signature veteran against his will, you are violating a core code element of world football.

To be fair Alonso was on the block at the beginning of this season

[ensco]

To be fair Alonso was on the block at the beginning of this season

Oh sure, teams shop senior veterans - it wouldn’t surprise me if TFC have done it.

I am saying the player doesn’t move if the player doesn’t agree.

[portu]

Oh sure, teams shop senior veterans - it wouldn’t surprise me if TFC have done it.

I am saying the player doesn’t move if the player doesn’t agree.
fair this is very true

[SirBobSaget]

Vanney wanting to setup with 4-3-3 next season so looking to bring in some true wingers who could get by their man out wide.

[noimpactinmtl]

Vanney wanting to setup with 4-3-3 next season so looking to bring in some true wingers who could get by their man out wide.

The winger should also be comfortable cutting inside if Giovinco is the false 9. It would make no sense crossing it if there’s no target man in the box.

[notthesun]

Vanney wanting to setup with 4-3-3 next season so looking to bring in some true wingers who could get by their man out wide.

I did think it was telling we lined up in a 4-3-3 at the end of the season. Maybe Vanney feels the 3-5-2 has grown stale or too predictable.

I don't think we have the right personnel exactly to play it though. I'm very skeptical of playing Giovinco as a winger. He could drop to CAM, but then we only get one of Vazquez and him on the field. He could play as a false 9, but then where does Altidore (or a potential replacement striker) play?

If I'm guessing right now I think it might be something Vanney wants to incorporate for flexibility when we have injuries and absences, but not necessarily the go-to look with a full squad.

[portu]

I did think it was telling we lined up in a 4-3-3 at the end of the season. Maybe Vanney feels the 3-5-2 has grown stale or too predictable.

I don't think we have the right personnel exactly to play it though. I'm very skeptical of playing Giovinco as a winger. He could drop to CAM, but then we only get one of Vazquez and him on the field. He could play as a false 9, but then where does Altidore (or a potential replacement striker) play?

If I'm guessing right now I think it might be something Vanney wants to incorporate for flexibility when we have injuries and absences, but not necessarily the go-to look with a full squad.

If the Altidore replacement isn't Janson (which I think it will be) then it'll be a DP winger I think.

[Still Kicking]

I think the Waking the Red article has promise. Allan Singh writes that Seba Giovinco may be the winger that TFC needs and the search would be for another striker to pair with Altidore.

[ag futbol]

I think the Waking the Red article has promise. Allan Singh writes that Seba Giovinco may be the winger that TFC needs and the search would be for another striker to pair with Altidore.
Is Giovinco okay with tracking back? If not, this setup is less likely to work.

[Ultra & Proud]

Is Giovinco okay with tracking back? If not, this setup is less likely to work.

Over the past year and a half he's been doing a lot more than the other star forwards in MLS.

[Ossington Mental Youth]

Maybe Vanney feels the 3-5-2 has grown stale or too predictable.

It has

[OgtheDim]

The diamond is even more stale & predictable.

[SirBobSaget]

The diamond is even more stale & predictable.

The encouraging thing is Vanney recognizes his tactics have been found out. Teams clogged up the middle forcing them to work the ball wide were their wingback personnel Morrow,Auro, Morgan,Chapman,VDW ... etc are not so good at dribbling past opponent and whipping in crosses.

Excited to see something different.

[ensco]

Vanney said what he said because it's a way of pointing out that the team is getting older, and they need to upgrade youth/speed in depth positions.

But I don’t think he really believes that formation was the core issue. In my opinion formation talk is always wildly overrated. You want in game flexibility and the ability to show different looks, which we had last year.

We got “found out” because guys like Zavaleta and Auro didn’t make plays like Mavinga and Morrow did. The issue in 2018 was injuries.

If we had had our guys we would have been fine.

Good decisions on who can recover, who will remain fragile, who can be counted on, are far and away the most important offseason task.

[Voodooman]

We are exempt from losing anyone at Expansion Draft!!

https://www.mlssoccer.com/media-resources/2018-expansion-draft-rules/

[notthesun]

Yup, that's very good for us. Key dates to keep in mind for TFC now are:

- Nov. 26: Deadline to announce our roster decisions re: contract options and players out of contract. Could come sooner than this (the Revolution have already announced theirs)
- Dec. 9: Trade window open for the first half of the day
- Dec. 10: MLS releases list of available Free Agents, signing period starts on the 11th
- Dec. 14: Re-Entry Draft Stage 1 (selected players must have their existing option salary picked up or be offered a similar salary as their expired contract)
- Dec. 20: Re-Entry Draft Stage 2 (selected players negotiate brand new deals)

[JuliquE]

Yup, that's very good for us. Key dates to keep in mind for TFC now are:

- Nov. 26: Deadline to announce our roster decisions re: contract options and players out of contract. Could come sooner than this (the Revolution have already announced theirs)
- Dec. 9: Trade window open for the first half of the day
- Dec. 10: MLS releases list of available Free Agents, signing period starts on the 11th
- Dec. 14: Re-Entry Draft Stage 1 (selected players must have their existing option salary picked up or be offered a similar salary as their expired contract)
- Dec. 20: Re-Entry Draft Stage 2 (selected players negotiate brand new deals)
Phew!

Thanks for the above, notthesun.

[Areathrasher]

Reports in Argentina that TFC are trying to extend Jansons loan and negotiate the option price down.

[Red CB Toronto]

Phew!

Thanks for the above, notthesun.

Do we know who the 11 option players are for the Reds?

[notthesun]

Do we know who the 11 option players are for the Reds?

I ran through the status of our roster earlier: http://forums.redpatchboys.ca/showthread.php?42014-TFC-2018-2019-player-off-season-moves-speculation-rumours&p=1882135&viewfull=1#post1882135

[Red CB Toronto]

I ran through the status of our roster earlier: http://forums.redpatchboys.ca/showthread.php?42014-TFC-2018-2019-player-off-season-moves-speculation-rumours&p=1882135&viewfull=1#post1882135

Don't every MLS contract have an option year in it? So what makes Jason Hernandez a free agent but others option pickups?

[Still Kicking]

Don't every MLS contract have an option year in it? So what makes Jason Hernandez a free agent but others option pickups?
Not the case, the players fought for and got in the last collective agreement the free agency that is mentioned in the schedule for December 10th. I forget how many years you have to have played to qualify for free agency. It is limited but was progress for the players. Nobody wants to be owned forever...

[Initial B]

I believe that Free Agency kicks in after a player has played 8 years in MLS *and* is at least 28 years old. They can probably negotiate it down to 7 and 27 next cycle since it hasn't had that much effect on the league. I think once it gets to 6 and 26 (maybe 5 and 25) that would be respectable for both parties.

[portu]

MLS player contracts in general are ridiculously convoluted.

[Hamilton_Red]

I read somewhere that contract management was one of the reasons that Carl Robinson was fired from the Whitecaps. Brek Shea had a clause in his contract that if he played a certain number of games in his first season there he would be given a DP contract at a fixed price for the next season. Robinson brought him on as a sub in one of the last games of the season by mistake and triggered the clause.

[portu]

I read somewhere that contract management was one of the reasons that Carl Robinson was fired from the Whitecaps. Brek Shea had a clause in his contract that if he played a certain number of games in his first season there he would be given a DP contract at a fixed price for the next season. Robinson brought him on as a sub in one of the last games of the season by mistake and triggered the clause.

There is no way that Carl wouldn't have known about that clause. Definitely wouldn't have been a mistake.

[OgtheDim]

That Shea is on 750K a year does seem a little suspect - after Stoke & Orlando, nobody should have been paying him DP money.

[Red CB Toronto]

That Shea is on 750K a year does seem a little suspect - after Stoke & Orlando, nobody should have been paying him DP money.

Thing is US internationals coming into or back to MLS usually come in at an inflated wage. Guys would rather play here than toil say in The Championship, where the average salary is over 600,000 pounds.

[notthesun]

There is no way that Carl wouldn't have known about that clause. Definitely wouldn't have been a mistake.

The situation there was actually that he had a clause that would auto trigger his option if he played in the playoffs, which he did. It was reported at the time that management didn't intend to keep him, but they had to after he played in the playoffs.

[shwade]

The situation there was actually that he had a clause that would auto trigger his option if he played in the playoffs, which he did. It was reported at the time that management didn't intend to keep him, but they had to after he played in the playoffs.

That makes much more sense than handing someone a DP based just on games played.

[ag futbol]

That makes much more sense than handing someone a DP based just on games played.
Both are rather odd for this league. Regardless, Lenduzzi is the Canadian Mo Johnston, continually grinding though underlings with low levels of performance and taking no real responsibility himself.

I think MDS is a good coach but question why he took a swing at this one. Somebody else would have certainly offered him a head coaching gig In the future. Why tie yourself to a cheap organization with high levels of dysfunction?

[kuku]

Looks like David Villa will be available.

[SirBobSaget]

The situation there was actually that he had a clause that would auto trigger his option if he played in the playoffs, which he did. It was reported at the time that management didn't intend to keep him, but they had to after he played in the playoffs.

Then the question becomes; Was Robinson made aware of this clause? If so and he still subbed in Shea as a long shot then crazy dumb move. Otherwise its the GM side of things that failed.

[SirBobSaget]

Looks like David Villa will be available.
If he doesn't retire then likely back to Spain.

[Oldtimer]

Seba locked up?

https://mobile.twitter.com/torontofc/status/1062028341950201856

[notthesun]

Seba locked up?

https://mobile.twitter.com/torontofc/status/1062028341950201856

I saw this earlier but I didn't the bear emoji... does Osorio have a nickname I don't know about or something?

[reggie]

i think el oso means bear in spanish

[ElvistheEvilScotsman]

+ The giant bear tattoo on his shoulder.

[ensco]

Wow. That tweet can only mean that he is signed.

[OgtheDim]

I took that as either

a) a marketing social media thing just kinda thrown out there because its a neat picture with 2 neat emojis

or

b) the beginning of a marketing strategy to invest people in the teamwork between players - something only seen with the marketing of Jozy & Seba and even then rarely

[OgtheDim]

As always right now, the question is "whither Jozy?"

[ensco]

As always right now, the question is "whither Jozy?"

If I were setting odds of where Jozy is opening day, I would lay them out this way:

30% TFC
20% Atlanta
20% San Jose
10% elsewhere MLS (Seattle?)
20% Mexico

[Ultra & Proud]

If I were setting odds of where Jozy is opening day, I would lay them out this way:

30% TFC
20% Atlanta
20% San Jose
10% elsewhere MLS (Seattle?)
20% Mexico

Good luck to Seattle with that plastic pitch if they make a move for Jozy.

[Auzzy]

Good luck to Seattle with that plastic pitch if they make a move for Jozy.

Atlanta also has plastic, is it better?

[shwade]

If I were setting odds of where Jozy is opening day, I would lay them out this way:

30% TFC
20% Atlanta
20% San Jose
10% elsewhere MLS (Seattle?)
20% Mexico

Somewhere in Cali probably if not one of the LAs.

[ensco]

The Galaxies have 3 DPs and Ibra, how would that work? Similar issue for LAFC. But I think the most likely destination may be San Jose.

Someone said previously that this would be kind of sad, but it’s also kind of compelling, if you stand back and look at it.

The Bay Area is a monster market, that the Earthquakes are lost in. The league needs someone like him there. It's grass. It's a place players want to go to live. Jozy speaks perfect Spanish, which is a big market there, but he has tons of crossover appeal to Silicon Valley, which should care about Quakes soccer more than it does (youth soccer is year round massive out there). His Spanish also makes him a perfect signing for Almeyda.

I put Atlanta up there because they have the ambition, they are losing Almiron (and maybe Martinez), and Jozy's Spanish would also be a big asset there. Issue is that they would be breaking away from their vision to spend money on a veteran like this.

Seattle also have the vision and have the dough (because Dempsey is gone), but I am not sure how Altidore would see that. It'd be tougher for any prominent TFC player to go to Seattle, it would feel more mercenary/wrong.

Of course someone like Orlando (Jozy is from Florida) could be possible. (But if I am Jozy, I want to go to a big market. I wouldn’t go to a secondary market.) Or of course he could stay, if whatever breach occurred is fixed.

[Initial B]

Seattle also have the vision and have the dough (because Dempsey is gone), but I am not sure how Altidore would see that. It'd be tougher for any prominent TFC player to go to Seattle, it would feel more mercenary/wrong.
Why would you think that? Frei has prospered there, so could Jozy - OOOoooohhhhhh...

[OgtheDim]

Seattle has their DP striker team in Morris & Rudiaz.

[Hamilton_Red]

We'd be crazy to trade/sell hi to Atlanta. They are going to be our Eastern rivals for a while.

[Ultra & Proud]

Atlanta also has plastic, is it better?

You're right. I try to forget about them.

[Ossington Mental Youth]

Where does his girl live?

[Areathrasher]

Jozy to Atlanta aint happening. Josef is getting a pay raise and Pity Martinez from River Plate is replacing Almiron.

[OgtheDim]

SJE or Columbus or Orlando (who would be willing to pay his wage)

I think he would have gone to NYRB but for what their fans have said about him the last 2 years.

[ensco]

Seattle has their DP striker team in Morris & Rudiaz.

If I am Seattle, I am not counting on Morris. His strike rate hasn’t been that impressive yet, and nobody knows what he will be like next year

[ensco]

I don't think Jozy (or Bradley) will ever play in an old school market that has a long USMNT history like NY or DC (or Columbus).

I think we have only seen a fraction of it. There has just been too much hate. I would never put my family through that.

[Bantamfan]

SJE or Columbus or Orlando (who would be willing to pay his wage)

I think he would have gone to NYRB but for what their fans have said about him the last 2 years.
Jozy to Orlando for the rights to Larin. Sign Larin from turkey and bring him home

[Blindside16]

You may as well through Cincinnati in that mix. Brand new team looking to make a splash, that would be one hell of a way to do it.

[BenRhodes23]

San Jozy Earthquakes. I've been saying it for a while now lol

Perfect marketing, like the VeLA thing

[Areathrasher]

https://twitter.com/SaudiLeagueNews/status/1062814863137873925
https://twitter.com/SAFinsider_EN/status/1062829227572187137


AL-HILAL NEGOTIATES WITH FORMER JUVENTUS AND BARCELONA PLAYERS, ITALIAN SEBASTIAN GIOVINCO AND JONATHAN SORIANOThe management of Al-Hilal started to move in order to support the first team with First class foreign players.
Al-Hilal tend to replace the Venezuelan Rivas, UAE Omar Abdulrahman, and the Syrian Khrebin. Local news reported that Al-Hilal keep an eye on the Italian player Sebastien Giovinco, the Italian striker, and Soriano, the Spanish striker.
The Italian international Sebastien Giovinco is playing for Toronto and is a former Juventus player. Giovinco will replace Emirati Omar Abdel Rahman in Al-Hilal midfield after Omar’s ACL injury.
Meanwhile, The Spanish striker Soriano, Beijing club player, is the first option for Al-Hilal.
Al-Hilal would also sign a new defender on January. The new defender will be an Australian or Korean.

[Ultra & Proud]

https://twitter.com/SaudiLeagueNews/status/1062814863137873925
https://twitter.com/SAFinsider_EN/status/1062829227572187137


AL-HILAL NEGOTIATES WITH FORMER JUVENTUS AND BARCELONA PLAYERS, ITALIAN SEBASTIAN GIOVINCO AND JONATHAN SORIANO

The management of Al-Hilal started to move in order to support the first team with First class foreign players.
Al-Hilal tend to replace the Venezuelan Rivas, UAE Omar Abdulrahman, and the Syrian Khrebin. Local news reported that Al-Hilal keep an eye on the Italian player Sebastien Giovinco, the Italian striker, and Soriano, the Spanish striker.
The Italian international Sebastien Giovinco is playing for Toronto and is a former Juventus player. Giovinco will replace Emirati Omar Abdel Rahman in Al-Hilal midfield after Omar’s ACL injury.
Meanwhile, The Spanish striker Soriano, Beijing club player, is the first option for Al-Hilal.
Al-Hilal would also sign a new defender on January. The new defender will be an Australian or Korean.

Money talks but I know if I had a young family that would be low on the list of places I would be interested living in for a few years.

[notthesun]

Probably the least believable club he's been linked to yet.

[SirBobSaget]

Probably the least believable club he's been linked to yet.

They bought 33 year old Bafetimbi Gomis for 6.8$ million and offered him a 3 year 6.8$ million per year contract. If he re-signs with TFC it won't be anywhere near those wages. So for a last pay day it makes sense. Though ya Saudi Arabia, definitely wouldn,t be moving the family.

[Blindside16]

If he leaves to go there I will be truly shocked.

[ensco]

I dunno how shocked anyone should be. Money talks. That is mostly why Seba came here, who is kidding who.

There are literally hundreds of thousands of people in Saudi who go there for 3 or 4 years to make 3x what they would elsewhere. Their families live in places/compounds like this.
https://www.cnn.com/travel/article/saudi-arabia-american-compound-aramco/index.html

It’s not perfect but it's doable for a while.

I don't know why Saudi are suddenly playing the world football game, but I could speculate. Given the connection of football to politics in that part of the world, it’s more surprising they haven’t been.

This game has drawn a lot of attention. A lot of people would like it moved back to Italy, as a result of recent events.
https://www.football-italia.net/122549/saudi-arabia-host-supercoppa

Besides Gomis, this team have signed a manager with a better pedigree than anyone in MLS. I would take him over Tata, for instance.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jorge_Jesus

Then these stories, just from yesterday

http://www.arabnews.com/node/1404941/saudi-arabia

https://www.express.co.uk/sport/football/1045719/Man-Utd-news-Avram-Glazer-takeover-Saudi-Arabia

Bottom line: I don't know if this is real, but it could be.

[Oldtimer]

Money talks, but lifestyle is also a factor. Moving to Toronto is a relatively small change and generally positive for a European. Moving to China or Saudi is a huge change and something you generally do without your family for the short term.

I see this more as an agent attempt to get leverage for negotiations with TFC than a serious move. If Giovinco just wanted maximum cash he could have made the move to China last year.

[ensco]

^I don't think we know enough about the China story to have an opinion on it. It is easy for me to imagine Manning quashing any deal last offseason. We were coming off a championship, going into CCL, that would have been a PR disaster.

I think we overrate lifestyle here. We see stories like that of Vazquez, and it makes us feel good, but Vazquez did not take much of a hit to come/stay here.

Seba has a lot of money, sure, but he has a lot of earning power, and his earning power is ending very shortly.

It's a mercenary profession. The list of guys who took a last deal far away for the money is long. The list of the ones who didn't is short.

I sincerely hope he does not go to Saudi Arabia, but he should do what is right for him.

[C.Ronaldo]

Money talks but I know if I had a young family that would be low on the list of places I would be interested living in for a few years.

If I was a human, that would be low on the list of places I'd take money from let alone live

[Oldtimer]

^I don't think we know enough about the China story to have an opinion on it. It is easy for me to imagine Manning quashing any deal last offseason. We were coming off a championship, going into CCL, that would have been a PR disaster.

If a star player wants to leave, he leaves, end of. That's the same world over. Plus Manning and Bez are both on the record that they don't want any players here who don't want to be here.

I'm not saying it's impossible that he goes to Saudi (or China, or back to Serie A). I think the most likely thing, though, is agent leverage for a new contract.

I agree that lifestyle wasn't the main thing, TFC unloaded the Brinks truck to bring him over. It is a factor though.

I kind of know these things first hand because my dad worked for a couple of years (senior consulting engineering) in Saudi. He hated every second though the cash was great. Our family stayed put in Canada.

If he did go over with his family he and his partner would have to formally marry as women are not allowed in the presence of any man who is not a legal relative (they are unbelievably strict about this). The children would go to an American ex pat school. It's rare for expat women to be allowed to work. Life consists of shopping and hanging around with other expats in foreigner compounds and is quite dull. No religious or civic liberty. Possession of alcohol results in a public flogging and expulsion. Religious police enforce a strict dress code on women. Honestly I can't see his partner going for it.

If he went over it would be with his partner and kids living elsewhere. It's pretty hard to do, I know it was hard for our family.

Life is more than just money.

[notthesun]

The fact is Giovinco has been linked to a number of teams since arriving here, offering a variety of things (better soccer in Mexico and Italy, a bench role on Barcelona, lots of money in China) and he's never really come close to leaving. I realize I was probably unclear; I meant unbelievable that Giovinco would seriously consider it, not that the team is interested.

MLS is unique in being able to offer high wages, great lifestyle, decent soccer, and a sweet spot of fame and attention within league circles and relative anonymity outside it. Nowhere else in the world has this mix. That's why Giovinco is still here despite pretty constant interest from other clubs since he's arrived.

If I'm TFC I try to get him on a 3 year extension this summer.

[JT Red127]

I agree with Ensco, we do overrate the lifestyle here sometimes. Going to Saudi is one thing, but going to China and especially Beijing or Shanghai is not much of a change for someone earning what Seba would earn. Issues there have been more with the management of clubs, like actually getting paid. However living in Shanghai? I've spent some time there, in the right situation its one of the great cities of the world to live in. If i'm Seba and got offered a 2-3 year deal to go at substantially more $$ it would be very very appealing.

[RealG-TFC]

Jorge Jesus is a pretty big time manager.

[Super]

The fact is Giovinco has been linked to a number of teams since arriving here, offering a variety of things (better soccer in Mexico and Italy, a bench role on Barcelona, lots of money in China) and he's never really come close to leaving. I realize I was probably unclear; I meant unbelievable that Giovinco would seriously consider it, not that the team is interested.

MLS is unique in being able to offer high wages, great lifestyle, decent soccer, and a sweet spot of fame and attention within league circles and relative anonymity outside it. Nowhere else in the world has this mix. That's why Giovinco is still here despite pretty constant interest from other clubs since he's arrived.

If I'm TFC I try to get him on a 3 year extension this summer.

Same here. Giovinco has been misused a lot by playing him alone up front when Altidore was injured. Giovinco needs to have a strong player to play off of and short of that he's not very effective. At least consistently.

[paul-collins]

Not very effective? He was 5th in assists in the league this year. He changed his game to adapt to what the team needed from him. (Last year he wasn't in the top 20 and Vazquez was 2nd)

Meanwhile he was 12th in goals, dropping from 8th. Still respectable.

[Super]

Not very effective? He was 5th in assists in the league this year. He changed his game to adapt to what the team needed from him. (Last year he wasn't in the top 20 and Vazquez was 2nd)

Meanwhile he was 12th in goals, dropping from 8th. Still respectable.

I agree that we should keep him, but we have to get more out of his potential than what we saw this season. A lot of that has to do with Altidore out (when they are together they are both lethal) and all the injuries. I should have said that he could be more effective, and not that he wasn't very effective. He's still a star, but at 8 million bucks a year we need more from him for that money.

[Ultra & Proud]

but at 8 million bucks a year we need more from him for that money.
Whether the DP costs $8M or $1.51M it shouldn't make any difference because the cap hit is the same and MLSE can afford a few bucks on players. The bottom line is winning and who will help that happen.

Does Seba give us a better chance at winning than not having him? Yes.

Could we get better for less? Maybe.

Could we land a dud and balls up another season? Possibly.