Match Day 33 - TFC @ Montreal - Sunday October 21 3pm - Paint It Red

[OgtheDim]

https://i.imgur.com/e4VXZKU.jpg


*******

Have at It People

[Blindside16]

A win eliminates the L'impact from the playoffs. Time to play spoiler!!

[Initial B]

I get the feeling we're going to lose this one, which would pretty much guarantee us a top 5 Superdraft pick. Then Vanney is going to put all his eggs in the Atlanta basket if they haven't broken the points record yet.

[Oldtimer]

A win eliminates the L'impact from the playoffs. Time to play spoiler!!

While not as good as getting into the playoffs, eliminating Montreal from the playoffs will be a good second choice for many TFC fans.

Nothing would cause Torontonians more pain than to have the Impact fans say that they are better than Toronto for the next year.

[OgtheDim]

FWIW - we are going to be the #3 seed next year in whatever the Voyageur's becomes - meanwhile, in theory, Montreal & Vancouver are fighting it out for #1 seed. Mind you, I would not be suprised if the Voyaguer's moves to a random draw from the QF on - which is where we'd likely start.

[Red CB Toronto]

Everyone who is making the trek, remember the pregame gathering is at McLean's starting at 11 am. Come and start the day that will see the Reds knock the L'impact out of the post-season with pints, grub and cheer. The Premier League starts at 11 that day and the NFL action from Wembley will be in full swing.

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSy_K0VahecvP60Hdv0fq2MxfDtHF1ND _UB5Hu7kXMJsJMn12vZ

[James17930]

A win eliminates the L'impact from the playoffs. Time to play spoiler!!

It'll be a long shot at this point.

[OgtheDim]

A squad designed for next season in mind. Not sure why no Morrow or Moor on the bench but its a passable team compared to much of what we have put out this year.

[Omar]

I don't know how I feel about van der Wiel as the CB in a back 4. He looks uncomfortable in that role and has been a big weak point for us especially with Auro at right back. Delgado might be on double if not triple duty off the ball. If it was a back 3, sure, van der Wiel would have more of man-to-man defensive role.

If Chapman's playing, he might actually be playing on the right flank, and we might be seeing more of a traditional 4-4-2. That might help out Auro and van der Wiel.

[Omar]

Hopefully Ashtone Morgan does well at left back. I don't think he's had a good performance since the match against Club America several months back.

[Omar]

That Montréal counter is a sign of things to come for Toronto. Our defenders need to be more secure on the ball if they are to bring it forward. I'm already liking the movement from our team, and our tempo's improved as well.

[Derko]

Chapman, please stop flapping your arms, shrugging your shoulders and rolling your eyes and play football, ffs

[Omar]

Well, that looks like a typical goal that we'd concede. The defending off of that set piece was quite poor. Morgan completely lost Amarikwa, and Mavinga played Fanni onside.

[Omar]

What a relief. VAR brings the correct decision to that moment.

[FootBallAZ]

Mls.helping the cause, no mtl.goal less chance of another Canadian team making it in, lol this refs seems legit.

Sagna got drilled

[barticusz]

The real question is.... what does Piatti say to Giovinco here? My guess, “will I see you next year for another derby match?”

https://twitter.com/JogaBonito_USA/status/1054089510152220674?s=20

[FootBallAZ]

That looked like a good goal

[SarniaTFC]

Chapman, please stop flapping your arms, shrugging your shoulders and rolling your eyes and play football, ffs

I’ve never ever seen a more truthful statement! He drives me up the f*cking wall

[OgtheDim]

We had a 3 on 2 there near the end and Janson couldn't make the pass.


I think he's flubbing his audition.

[Omar]

The match is opening up now. Montréal are pushing up more players, and so are we. We'll probably be seeing a couple of goals in this half.

[Omar]

How have we not scored that? Montréal are begging us to score, and we're not accepting their offer!

[Auzzy]

Chapman, please stop flapping your arms, shrugging your shoulders and rolling your eyes and play football, ffs

Really time to take him off now. What a flub just now. Try Fraser or Telfer.

I see attitude problems with so many of the players who came up through the TFC system. Not all of them, but most of them have at least some of the symptoms, including some players that are no longer with us. Might be related to being medium-sized fish in the very small pond of Cdn soccer growing up.

FFS Janson come on!

[Auzzy]

TFC supporters in Montreal can be heard very well. I'm listening to a stream w/o commentary, and TFC fans are really noticeable.

[Omar]

Morgan looks like he's tired already. We need to bring on Telfer for him and Bakero for Chapman.

[Auzzy]

Zavaleta coming on, WTF?

[Auzzy]

Almost ready for the Zavaleta screw up drinking game?

[Omar]

Yet another "defensive" change that is seemingly going to hurt us...what a typical change by Vanney...

[MightyDM]

I am away without access to a stream or twitter. Can some one post the lineup and the score? It seems to be 0-0 and I am getting Morgan Mavinga VDW Auro Delgado Chapman Jansen Giovinco judging from comments. Who have I missed ?

[stegosaurus]

Zavaleta coming on, WTF?

Comes on, fails clearance, causes penalty. Instantly. Thanks, nephew.

[Omar]

Caldwell with a clanger in his commentary :facepalm:

[samuraizero]

Almost ready for the Zavaleta screw up drinking game?

I think this one involves shooting a 40

[OgtheDim]

That's not a penalty but MY GOD Zavaleta is pathetic letting a ball bounce in the area.

[Derko]

:facepalm:Well I suppose statistics will speak for themselves, Zaveleta comes on, TFC give up a goal,

[Omar]

As expected, Telfer's come on for Morgan. I guess that's the lineup we'll end the match with.

[Auzzy]

That's not a penalty but MY GOD Zavaleta is pathetic letting a ball bounce in the area.


I agree about the pathetic bounce. But why not a penalty? Zavaleta was grabbing him from the back of the shirt / collar when he went down. Grabbing in the box is supposed to be a "point of emphasis" this year even if they aren't generally calling it enough.

In any case, eff off Zavaleta, eff off Vanney. Why not put on Bakero, Telfer or Fraser when taking off Chapman?

[Leedsoronto]

Was the tacticical change by TFC made by the Limpact

[iamthelight_]

Zavaleta will get no presents from Vanney this Chrismas. He has gifted him too many minutes already.

[FootBallAZ]

Ok I think Vanney needs to go. This is the third or fourth time he has brought off a midfielder for a dman when we need a goal. Was he playing for a nil draw ?


Btw i dislike tsn and Caldwell very much. Two games ago I had to mute him because he talks so much. I was Watch in the mls feed earlier, lower quality man the chants are awesome to hear, and just peaceful.

As I type this Caldwell hasn't stopped talking about zaveleta for the last 3m

[FootBallAZ]

Lol awkward, bono has been good this game

[jazzy]

Game if lost by Seba’s Lacklustre should be a goal miss , and of course Vanneys ridiculous backing of Zavaleta’s cocky deficiencies. Can’t think of any coach who trying to win a game subs in a defender ( subpar at best ) removing a mid , also not ready for prime time but Vanney has a problem thinking this team can defend anything . So why try ? They are all lacking a proven game plan , or a coach that’s I’d misusing what he is left to utilize . Whose at fault Vanney Bez ? It will be the same next year without some form of change . Montreal is more exciting and that’s a massive drop . To many apologists as usual . Paying seasons for a team with too many passengers is not fun . It must be in Vanneys DNA to always too late sub in a defender when tied or losing . That’s is a joke .

[Omar]

That sums up our season. Well, that's that, then. I have nothing more to say after that.

[OgtheDim]

Bono with a decent game....until then.

[FootBallAZ]

LoL wow

[FootBallAZ]

Our season was summed up by the game where zavleta tripped over himself heading the ball to the striker lol.
This a close second

[iamthelight_]

Montreal still not making the playoffs though :lol:

[Derko]

Wow what a epic failure.

See you all on Sunday, last game and all

[FootBallAZ]

Best can hope for his a win lol

[Omar]

Montreal still not making the playoffs though :lol:
If the Crew don't screw up, sure.

[jloome]

Bono with a decent game....until then.

We made the wrong off season changes and Bono isn't ready for prime time, skilled as he is.

Why oh why would anyone ever break up one of the best back lines in league history? It probably came across as pretty merciless to a team that just nailed down a treble. Maybe all the money-and-aging issues this year had more to do with the lack of fight than anything.

[Auzzy]

Caldwell with a clanger in his commentary :facepalm:

What did Caldwell say? I was blissfully unaware, watching a stream with no commentary whatsoever.

[iamthelight_]

Well.. Next week either NYRB or Atlanta beat our record to put the cherry on fucking top.

But hey, at least it's over. Hope we come back next year. I really hope.

[OgtheDim]

Game if lost by Seba’s Lacklustre should be a goal miss , and of course Vanneys ridiculous backing of Zavaleta’s cocky deficiencies. .

We were getting killed on both wings. Thus go to a 3-5-2. Actually made some sense and stopped Montreal pretty effectively. That the choice of the 3rd CB is so bad is a mix of 2 players seriously regressing & the team not getting a decent 4th CB in.

Brain farts cost us this game, all over the pitch. Janson miss, Seba miss, Delgado passes to give away plays, Osorio under passing a number of players, Chapman & Auro slowing things down too much, Bradley hesitating, Morgan unable to stop a 36 year old getting past him. Passing was some of the worse we've seen all season. Everybody looked tired.

VDW & Mavinga were decent enough in defence and Bono had a good game until he lost his head on that one.

[Omar]

What did Caldwell say? I was blissfully unaware, watching a stream with no commentary whatsoever.
Back when the ref awarded the penalty to Montréal after his video review, Caldwell was adamant that the ref made the wrong decision. He was talking about how it wasn't a penalty and that we were hard done by.

[tfcfans]

Well the good part is next year can’t be any worse in the cumulative total of embarrassing efforts and results. In addition there will be zero expectation compared to this year entering the season.

This year has been an abomination - However I would 100/100x take 2017 even if it meant this 2018 season. The championship will never be taken away from my memories, nor my emotions towards it. I’d much rather finish first one season and then last the next, then to finish third every year and never win it all - as a Leafs fan I would happily trade one Cup for a crapfest in the year following - ask Brewers fans after last night if after 36 years of not even making the WS whether they would trade one Championship for a few crappy seasons.....I’m sure NYRB fans would give a Shield back for an MLS Cup too....

I swore to myself after last year that if given the dream season I wouldn’t complain if this season sucked; and I won’t. In about 7 weeks only one team will end the season happily and the rest will have won the same thing we did this year. Personally I’m rooting for any West team to win and if not then anyone but Atlanta.....

[Omar]

the rest will have won the same thing we did this year.
Technically, we do have the Canadian Championship... ;)

Anyways, I told several people over the past two years that we should cherish the successes that we've had. Nothing will ever take away from the great few years that we've had. This season has brought us all back down to earth, and I'm hoping that TFC get that motivation back that guided us to a legendary 2017 season.

[Gringo Starr]

This season just keeps getting worse.

[OgtheDim]

Back when the ref awarded the penalty to Montréal after his video review, Caldwell was adamant that the ref made the wrong decision. He was talking about how it wasn't a penalty and that we were hard done by.

Not really a clanger as it was dubious and hardly "clear and obvious".

[GerMc]

I'm sorry. Please give Zavaleta his walking papers. He is on for a minute or so, and gives up a penalty. Whether it was a borderline penalty or not, he looked totally out of place and grabbed Piatti's shirt because he couldn't defend against him. Please send him on his way. I can't even count how many games he has lost us.

And I would agree with folks that this was a bonehead substitution. Zavaleta has had a history this year of coming on late in the game and giving up goals. What was Vanney thinking? Atrocious and embarassing...

[tfcfans]

Look at it this way - how many of us old timers remember the 92 and 93 Jays? Those are vivid memories, the 1994-2014 seasons all pretty much blend together for the most part - off the top of my head I couldn’t give you specific memories of disappointing moments from the Jays in 1994-1997? Never mind the rest of those more recent years....the point is in 5 years, 2018 will fade away for the most part as being an annoyance, but the vivid memories of 2017 will last a lifetime. Sports are a horrible return on ones emotional and financial investment 95%+ of the time, we choose to be a fan knowing this fact, in exchange for the 5% of magical memories that we can hold on to forever; the previous two season gave us a lot of that 5% all at once so we convinced ourselves that this was the new normal - it’s simply not for about all of the franchises in this league - in a post expansion MLS with more DPs and talent spread out, it will be harder and harder to keep great teams together in the coming years....We will see what Atlanta can do next year to keep their super group together (Almiron and their coach may be gone?! (will Josef Martinez get sold?)?!), and they still have to win MLS Cup #1 and flamed out in US Open Cup this year.....

[OgtheDim]

...And I would agree with folks that this was a bonehead substitution. Zavaleta has had a history this year of coming on late in the game and giving up goals. What was Vanney thinking? Atrocious and embarassing...

The other options

Hagglund

or

stick with the 4-4-2 and watch Morgan get beaten ever more as he tires (subbing him for Telfer as a LB would be equally bad)

Both of those were probably worse ideas.

[jazzy]

We were getting killed on both wings. Thus go to a 3-5-2. Actually made some sense and stopped Montreal pretty effectively. That the choice of the 3rd CB is so bad is a mix of 2 players seriously regressing & the team not getting a decent 4th CB in.

Brain farts cost us this game, all over the pitch. Janson miss, Seba miss, Delgado passes to give away plays, Osorio under passing a number of players, Chapman & Auro slowing things down too much, Bradley hesitating, Morgan unable to stop a 36 year old getting past him. Passing was some of the worse we've seen all season. Everybody looked tired.

VDW & Mavinga were decent enough in defence and Bono had a good game until he lost his head on that one.

True , it’s depressing they don’t have the desire to even play for this moral victory game . So , if we don’t have the starters (cb) or bench who’s to blame ? It will take hard decisions to reignite the past desire to win every ball , and win as a team . After today I have my doubts on next year , sadly .

[GerMc]

The other options

Hagglund

or

stick with the 4-4-2 and watch Morgan get beaten ever more as he tires (subbing him for Telfer as a LB would be equally bad)

Both of those were probably worse ideas.

Sorry, Og, I appreciate your contributions to the board, and usually find you a voice of wisdom, but in this case, we will have to agree to disagree. As soon as he came on, I asked myself, how long will it take Zavs to cough up a goal. And he did not disappoint--I think it was 90 seconds max. Strategically, I think your analysis above is correct, but Zavs has come on a bunch of times late in the game this year, and either gotten beat, given up a penalty, or just fallen down, leading to a goal, sometimes at a critical point. It just seemed to me that any other option was better than having him come on, with the end result of keeping alive Montreal's hope of making the playoffs alive almost inevitable.

Well, I hope the team plays a bit better next week against Atlanta and keeps a piece of the all time points record. And then on to next year, which will hopefully be better :-)

[Initial B]

When I saw Zavaleta sub in, I thought "Oh crap." If Hagglund had subbed in I wouldn't have had the same reaction. I don't see how Zavaleta can stay at his current skill level and salary. If he's still here next year, I'll have to assume its nepotism.

[MightyDM]

We made the wrong off season changes and Bono isn't ready for prime time, skilled as he is.

Why oh why would anyone ever break up one of the best back lines in league history? It probably came across as pretty merciless to a team that just nailed down a treble. Maybe all the money-and-aging issues this year had more to do with the lack of fight than anything.

You might have a point. Steven Beitashour very nearly died for us, and we had to replace him with three players if you include Hasler.

While I would credit Auro and VDW for their play during the champions league run, for the rest of the season, VDW seemed to play without passion. Not only did we we miss the stability in defense all year we really missed a guy who was symbolic of never giving up.

[69Chevy396]

You might have a point. Steven Beitashour very nearly died for us, and we had to replace him with three players if you include Hasler.

While I would credit Auro and VDW for their play during the champions league run, for the rest of the season, VDW seemed to play without passion. Not only did we we miss the stability in defense all year we really missed a guy who was symbolic of never giving up.
It will take five years to rebuild a championship contender, and sadly, it has to begin with a new manager. Vanney was incapable of motivating this team, made so many poor player selections and substitutions, used ineffective tactics, and seldom made correct in game adjustments, when things were not going so well.

[ensco]

We made the wrong off season changes and Bono isn't ready for prime time, skilled as he is.

Why oh why would anyone ever break up one of the best back lines in league history? It probably came across as pretty merciless to a team that just nailed down a treble. Maybe all the money-and-aging issues this year had more to do with the lack of fight than anything.

You mean like that crazy thing we did the year before, where we took a team that dominated the MLS Cup game, and let a heart-and-soul Canadian, who broke his leg for us, go, and replaced him with a Spanish guy who couldn’t get off the bench in Mexico but made 4x what the Canadian did?

They swung the bat. Sometimes you miss badly.

[Oldtimer]

It will take five years to rebuild a championship contender, and sadly, it has to begin with a new manager. Vanney was incapable of motivating this team, made so many poor player selections and substitutions, used ineffective tactics, and seldom made correct in game adjustments, when things were not going so well.

Please give it up with the Vanney hate. I get it, you never liked him. But 95%+ of TFC fans will disagree with you. Vanney won us the MLS Cup and his tactics and team management were a big part of that. At that time you argued that the manager made no difference, it was all the team. Now you are arguing its the manager when they are losing. Which is it? You can't have it both ways.

Your rebuild narrative is also completely off base. This team isn't far from contending next year, the roster only needs some tweaks, not a teardown and rebuild. Plus some real rest and recovery.

The margins of difference are not that great in MLS. A team can win a cup one year, stink the next, then be a real contender the following year just with a few changes. Look at DC, add Rooney and a crap team became good. It's that narrow a margin.

[MightyDM]

You mean like that crazy thing we did the year before, where we took a team that dominated the MLS Cup game, and let a heart-and-soul Canadian, who broke his leg for us, go, and replaced him with a Spanish guy who couldn’t get off the bench in Mexico but made 4x what the Canadian did?

They swung the bat. Sometimes you miss badly.

Fair point.

[gracos]

Would it be fair to say the year was a write-off??

[OgtheDim]

It was a lesson. If they look at this as a blip or a one time thing that can't happen again, a different version of this will happen in 2019.

[69Chevy396]

Please give it up with the Vanney hate. I get it, you never liked him. But 95%+ of TFC fans will disagree with you. Vanney won us the MLS Cup and his tactics and team management were a big part of that. At that time you argued that the manager made no difference, it was all the team. Now you are arguing its the manager when they are losing. Which is it? You can't have it both ways.

Your rebuild narrative is also completely off base. This team isn't far from contending next year, the roster only needs some tweaks, not a teardown and rebuild. Plus some real rest and recovery.

The margins of difference are not that great in MLS. A team can win a cup one year, stink the next, then be a real contender the following year just with a few changes. Look at DC, add Rooney and a crap team became good. It's that narrow a margin.

If you find yourself with nothing better to do, please find a single post where I derided or criticized Vanney. Never happened. I have been watching other MLS teams this season, and in my opinion, several are better than TFC was last season. Many other teams are on par with our team, when we have no injuries.
DC United has the best midfielder in the league right now, a solid keeper, good defenders, and Rooney.

[OgtheDim]

Hard to really compare but nobody really dominated like we did in 2017. NYRB & Atlanta are good but I would argue they both have more flaws then we showed last season. In some ways, the league this year regressed defensively and teams with the tactical capability to take advantage of that have prospered. See LAG where Zlatan is, IMHO, league MVP after only half a season.

**********
Apart from LAG, every single team doing well has had a consistent approach from management & manager for a number of years. 5 year rebuilds are not an MLS thing. Stick with a plan, implement it no matter who the manager is & innovate as you go along.

See Montreal for an example of what its like to keep changing things drastically. Apart from their 1 year of CCL and their one semi against us, they have been consistently not good enough. Heck, it took us going almost historically bad on defence for them to beat us twice in 1 season.