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View Full Version : Match Day 29 - TFC @ NYRB Saturday Sept 22 5pm - Do you think I'd lay down and die



OgtheDim
09-16-2018, 07:23 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYkACVDFmeg


*******

Have at It People

matteo30
09-16-2018, 07:37 PM
We are starting to click on offence (but the defence still sucks) The Importance of Locking of Mavinga to a long term deal is important. I want this win especially after last years playoffs. We don't play to lose and saving face by getting at least 11 wins does this. All 3 of Jozy, Seba, VV should play. I would love to beat them anybody watch any of there games are they as chippy as they were last year? I know they can defend not including the tie with DC united today. How much is everyone concentrating on the match on Wed? I want to win but also save face in league. Do you give Endoh a run out because I think he has earned some playing time... So many questions with this team.

Voodooman
09-17-2018, 12:57 PM
Mavinga and Auro should be available for Saturday which is good to see!

I don't see the point of having Endoh up unless we lose the next few games. Who would he come in for?

OgtheDim
09-17-2018, 02:30 PM
Endoh is on a TFCII contract - having him up makes no sense yet. He's still an international so although he might be picked up by somebody in MLS for next season, he's more likely to get a good long look in our training camp.

Watching Endoh last night, he's basically doing box to box - he's either an Osorio sub or making Delgado work harder in training.

stevep
09-19-2018, 10:37 PM
I cant bear to watch this game. we have around a 20% chance of winning this game.:facepalm:
also, i typically don't like away games.
here's to hoping the oddsmakers are wrong

Ultra & Proud
09-19-2018, 11:05 PM
This match is bound to be very similar to what we saw tonight. Pretty sure we're going to stagger into oblivion down the stretch. Maybe we'll wake up for the Impact match and possibly for Atlanta if it means preventing them from breaking our points record. Otherwise more of the same indifference and lack of focus/passion combined with attack numbing slowness.

Hamilton_Red
09-19-2018, 11:44 PM
There is no way we are making the playoffs. Morrow is half the player he was last year, Moor and Mavinga won't be sharp...Jose and Gio aren't in the right mind-set. We also need a new keeper...Bono is shattered.e

PizzaEatingYeti
09-20-2018, 03:45 AM
I cant bear to watch this game. we have around a 20% chance of winning this game.:facepalm:
also, i typically don't like away games.
here's to hoping the oddsmakers are wrong

No, I think the oddsmakers are very correct.

Gringo Starr
09-20-2018, 07:43 AM
Philly beat the sounders in seattle last night, the teams we were chasing aren't faltering down the stretch

Oldtimer
09-20-2018, 08:25 AM
In 2009 RBNY ended our playoff hopes. All we needed that year was a tie, instead RBNY hammered TFC.

Honestly I expect a similar hammering this year.

Voodooman
09-20-2018, 08:44 AM
Ugh dont remind me of that game. Have flashabacks to that last place team and Angel just nonstop scoring that game.

Sadly, Philly got a last minute goal to beat Seattle last night.

Gringo Starr
09-22-2018, 10:14 AM
In 2009 RBNY ended our playoff hopes. All we needed that year was a tie, instead RBNY hammered TFC.

Honestly I expect a similar hammering this year.

it it could be NYCFC who end any playoff hopes today, even if we win if MTL don't drop points the likely hood we catch them become slim to none.

Still Kicking
09-22-2018, 03:40 PM
No Seba

FootBallAZ
09-22-2018, 03:54 PM
Lol still no full XI.
No moor, no seba

Luanda
09-22-2018, 04:13 PM
streams?

OgtheDim
09-22-2018, 04:16 PM
Interested in learning lessons for next season. Not sucking would be nice. A point would be a bonus

FootBallAZ
09-22-2018, 04:17 PM
http://www.altsportss.com/new-york-red-bulls-vs-toronto-fc/

http://acesports.win/3.html

FootBallAZ
09-22-2018, 04:38 PM
Mavinga is awesome. Shuts Bradley Phillips down, then gets a throw instead of corner. Refreshing to see across not get in the box and have the ball bobble around

MightyDM
09-22-2018, 04:39 PM
This match is bound to be very similar to what we saw tonight. Pretty sure we're going to stagger into oblivion down the stretch. Maybe we'll wake up for the Impact match and possibly for Atlanta if it means preventing them from breaking our points record. Otherwise more of the same indifference and lack of focus/passion combined with attack numbing slowness.

I am surprised you saw indifference last game. I saw the exact opposite. Poor goalkeeping, yes, and a slow defense. But not indifference. Gio and Joey for example worked hard. And Tigre’s second goal was because everyone came back on defense. Someone should have not been back - in a way, trying too hard.

Still Kicking
09-22-2018, 05:08 PM
As the first half moved along, I thought TFC gained some confidence and improved... but a few scary moments early on. Hagglund and vdW are not good for each other...

General Woolfe
09-22-2018, 05:17 PM
Janson is a waste of a Jersey and I fancy even Hamilton would have taken one of those two chances. Janson’s shooting is just so lame. Bez and Vanney rightly so got plaudits for their work last season but there can be no doubt both have let us down this year. Bradley at CH just doesn’t work and is an example of some of the poor line up decisions that has plagued Vanney this season. Also there surely can’t be any doubt Bez has traded us into a far weaker position than we were last year. Letting Beta go was his first mistake and the two replacements VDW and Auro are just not up to the task. He has failed completely to strengthen us up front and letting Hasler go for next to nothing was criminal. If we don’t make the play offs one or both these guys have a lot of questions to answer to keep their jobs

edit - I didn’t know Séba was injured in that meaningless midweek game

ag futbol
09-22-2018, 05:25 PM
So not bad considering this is always a tough fixture. Some of the tactics are puzzling though.

FootBallAZ
09-22-2018, 05:27 PM
No altidore lol.

ag futbol
09-22-2018, 05:28 PM
Good grief Ricketts, point blank miss into row Z.

stegosaurus
09-22-2018, 05:33 PM
Janson is a waste of a Jersey and I fancy even Hamilton would have taken one of those two chances. Janson’s shooting is just so lame. Bez and Vanney rightly so got plaudits for their work last season but there can be no doubt both have let us down this year. Bradley at CH just doesn’t work and is an example of some of the poor line up decisions that has plagued Vanney this season. Also there surely can’t be any doubt Bez has traded us into a far weaker position than we were last year. Letting Beta go was his first mistake and the two replacements VDW and Auro are just not up to the task. He has failed completely to strengthen us up front and letting Hasler go for next to nothing was criminal. If we don’t make the play offs one or both these guys have a lot of questions to answer to keep their jobs

edit - I didn’t know Séba was injured in that meaningless midweek game

VDW and Auro weren’t bad pick-ups. Beita wasn’t going to fix this season. Janson hasn’t been that bad.

Look at the past two games: Seba and Jozy injured.

The bigger mistake was playing an entire season with every defender injured. Other than Bono, who has been mediocre in many games, what starter other than Osorio and Bradley hasn’t been injured?

There’s questions to be asked, but Beita wasn’t going to win us all the games we lost, and probably can’t play CB as well as VDW did.

ag futbol
09-22-2018, 05:35 PM
VDW gets a big thumbs down for me as a signing. You don’t spend that kind of money on a RB in this league.

stegosaurus
09-22-2018, 05:42 PM
VDW gets a big thumbs down for me as a signing. You don’t spend that kind of money on a RB in this league.

Are you implying Beita wouldn’t have cost anything? He was one of the top 5 or 6 salaries on the team and wanted a raise. Either he’d be a big cap hit or a TAM player anyway.

Is he better than VDW? Who knows, RB isn’t the position that has put us in the season we’re in, and either way we’d be spending a bunch of money on an RB.

FootBallAZ
09-22-2018, 05:42 PM
Hagglund fucked up lol put that guy on side smh

SirBobSaget
09-22-2018, 05:44 PM
Team needs a rebuild but unfortunately several older injury plagued players were given generous extensions.

OgtheDim
09-22-2018, 05:45 PM
News Flash - our crap players are crap

Ricketts started that by losing the ball and then backing away from the player who tackled him. Then Hagglund lets the ball bounce twice before heading it the wrong way.

Vendetta
09-22-2018, 05:45 PM
Ricketts being useless and missing a wide open volley, and then god awful timbits soccer worthy defending ends up in osorio shovelling in a goal off bradley

69Chevy396
09-22-2018, 05:46 PM
VDW gets a big thumbs down for me as a signing. You don’t spend that kind of money on a RB in this league.
Once again, this game illustrates how important Mavinga and Seba are. Seba makes everything hapoen up front (notice how useless superstar Osorio is without him on the pitch). I don’t understand why Bradley is playing back, that is Mavingas natural position. Anyhow, major changes coming in 2019.

stegosaurus
09-22-2018, 05:47 PM
Once again, this game illustrates how important Mavinga and Seba are. Seba makes everything hapoen up front (notice how useless superstar Osorio is without him on the pitch). I don’t understand why Bradley is playing back, that is Mavingas natural position. Anyhow, major changes coming in 2019.

Looks like Mavinga was still injured anyway.

ag futbol
09-22-2018, 05:48 PM
Are you implying Beita wouldn’t have cost anything? He was one of the top 5 or 6 salaries on the team and wanted a raise. Either he’d be a big cap hit or a TAM player anyway.

Is he better than VDW? Who knows, RB isn’t the position that has put us in the season we’re in, and either way we’d be spending a bunch of money on an RB.
We are literally paying 2.5x Beitashour’s current salary for VDW.

He wanted a raise because other players on the team received one over the course of the cup run. I doubt it would have been more than 350.

Regardless, you don’t spend 800+ on a rb I’m this league. It’s an outrageous way to use your available resources.

stegosaurus
09-22-2018, 05:50 PM
We are literally paying 2.5x Beitashour’s salary for VDW.

It’s TAM. What better TAM purchase did the FO make this year?

noimpactinmtl
09-22-2018, 05:54 PM
It’s TAM. What better TAM purchase did the FO make this year?

Yeah, VDW being able to play CB, RB and LB when our team was shot to oblivion with injuries did help. He also provides more offensively past the middle third.

ag futbol
09-22-2018, 05:55 PM
It’s TAM. What better TAM purchase did the FO make this year?
That’s not the point. You use the money to the best of your ability on the position where it will make the highest impact.

That money potentially represents a better CB, a sub striker without cinderblock feed and a tin-head, or maybe a pacey winger. All kinds of different positions we could have upgraded that would have a larger impact on the field

OgtheDim
09-22-2018, 05:57 PM
I think the best play out there tonight is the USMNT troll job by those Costa Rica vs Colombia ads. We've largely outplayed these guys but both teams have been poor.

stegosaurus
09-22-2018, 05:59 PM
That’s not the point. You use the money to the best of your ability on the position where it will make the highest impact.

That money potentially represents a better CB, a sub striker without cinderblock feed and a tin-head, or maybe a pacey winger. All kinds of different positions we could have upgraded that would have a larger impact on the field

They would have needed an RB or kept expensive Beita, who wouldn’t have helped. I’d rather have VDW playing CB based on his form there earlier in the season than Zavaleta or Hagglund.

Sure, would have been nice to have replacements for the pieces we lost to injury, a non-failure Spanish transfer, and some defenders, but how could the FO have predicted that?

FootBallAZ
09-22-2018, 06:01 PM
Ricketts. Hagglund. Zavaleta. Frustrate me.
Defender for mid field down by 1 ? We are defending ?

No telfer, auro, or fraser. Fraser could have played Bradley's spot and Bradley behind him.

Janson is a 1 goal every 3 games kinda guy. Ricketts just lol.
Vazquez can't do it all.

League is fixed no Bradley Philips vs atl bye bye points record

FootBallAZ
09-22-2018, 06:04 PM
LoL. Lol

OgtheDim
09-22-2018, 06:05 PM
Sooooo much mediocrity

Loyal
09-22-2018, 06:06 PM
I'm not one of the "fire Vanney" guys...but what was that game plan for a MUST WIN?

Were they trying to bore them to death?

NYRB are a dangerous team....however it was do or die

Leedsoronto
09-22-2018, 06:07 PM
Ugh !! Oh well

TFC07
09-22-2018, 06:07 PM
Haugland and Zavaleta need to be benched for rest of the season. I don't care if Vanney play TFC2 kids at this point. These two players cost TFC so many points. Time to clean house and bring in more younger and athletic players.

Kaz
09-22-2018, 06:07 PM
And that is the season.

At least they will have time to fix what ever the hell caused so many injuries get rid of the nepodefender and bring in a real third central defender for next season. And with luck Vanney doesn't decide he wants to try to play 2-6-2 again.

SirBobSaget
09-22-2018, 06:08 PM
Who could have predicted subbing zavaleta for mavinga would turn the defence into a clown show?

Donald Duck
09-22-2018, 06:09 PM
Zavaleta is a joke. $200k for what?? Each game he made a mistake

69Chevy396
09-22-2018, 06:13 PM
Ricketts. Hagglund. Zavaleta. Frustrate me.
Defender for mid field down by 1 ? We are defending ?

No telfer, auro, or fraser. Fraser could have played Bradley's spot and Bradley behind him.

Janson is a 1 goal every 3 games kinda guy. Ricketts just lol.
Vazquez can't do it all.

League is fixed no Bradley Philips vs atl bye bye points record
I am not even angry. After all those years of mediocrity, we have had two outstanding seasons. Problem with the team is one that happens so often in pro sports, the pinnacle is hard to reach, but easy to lose. The old mantra, trade your players a year early, rather than a year late, would apply here. Sadly, who do you build a team around? I can’t think of one TFC player who has star potential in the next year or two. Nobody. It will be a complete rebuild, but I hope we can keep Seba around...his quality and ability to shift to a creative centre mid role (Higuain), is needed on a team that will probably take 5 years to contend once again.

magmadragon
09-22-2018, 06:14 PM
There is nothing positive to take away from that game. That was beyond pathetic.

69Chevy396
09-22-2018, 06:15 PM
Zavaleta is a joke. $200k for what?? Each game he made a mistake
Zavaleta must be related to somebody in mgmt...��

SoccMan2
09-22-2018, 06:16 PM
Once again, this game illustrates how important Mavinga and Seba are. Seba makes everything hapoen up front (notice how useless superstar Osorio is without him on the pitch). I don’t understand why Bradley is playing back, that is Mavingas natural position. Anyhow, major changes coming in 2019.
There you go again , crapping on Osorio, I’m almost certain you must have played youth soccer with or against Osorio and he made it and you didn’t , he is now making in the neighbourhood of 800000 a year playing soccer while you join us fools posting comments on here. The useless players are the likes of Chapman, Zaveletta, Haglund, Ricketts and whoever the medical and training staff is on this team with all the injuries this season. The problem is next season the likes of Mavinga, Moore , Vasquez, Giovinco , Altidore will probably be injured just as much , this club unfortunately is back to the worst team in the world again and it only took what two seasons of success to bring them back to garbage again , good luck filling the 30000 seats at BMO get ready for Argo like attendance coming soon.

69Chevy396
09-22-2018, 06:21 PM
Ricketts. Hagglund. Zavaleta. Frustrate me.
Defender for mid field down by 1 ? We are defending ?

No telfer, auro, or fraser. Fraser could have played Bradley's spot and Bradley behind him.

Janson is a 1 goal every 3 games kinda guy. Ricketts just lol.
Vazquez can't do it all.

League is fixed no Bradley Philips vs atl bye bye points record

Nobody mentions Delgado or Osorio. Both stunk tonight. I never hated Osorio when he couldn’t score on a one legged dwarf, and I never loved him, when he had a string of easy gimmes, thanks to Seba knowing where his left foot was. But, in a do or die game, he was largely invisible. If this is what we can expect from him in 2019, better to trade him in the off season (If Seba leaves, Osorio scores 5 times next season, tops)

ag futbol
09-22-2018, 06:21 PM
They would have needed an RB or kept expensive Beita, who wouldn’t have helped. I’d rather have VDW playing CB based on his form there earlier in the season than Zavaleta or Hagglund.

Sure, would have been nice to have replacements for the pieces we lost to injury, a non-failure Spanish transfer, and some defenders, but how could the FO have predicted that?
Some of this was foreseeable, some of it was not. In totality, it was still a poor move. Think of it this way: does VDW have more of an impact on this team than Walker Zimmerman has in LAFC? Than Matt Hedges has on FCD? Than Besler on SKC? The sad thing is Zimmerman wants a new contract and by the sounds of it his demands to stay are less than what VDW is currently making.

If the goal was strengthening the team as much as possible they went about it the wrong way. It's exactly the same philosophy that lead to bringing in Aketxe to replace one of Osorio or Delgado (who were both serviceable). If Aketxe had worked out and was the right player for that role he would have make the team far better than either of Delgado or Osorio ever will. Unfortunately, a lot of that is now a sunk cost and TFC is taking half that budget charge to pay Aketxe to play elsewhere with the other half likely paying for Osorio's raise.

Beitashour would have probably stayed for an extra 50k. He wasn't looking for the world. He wanted a raise because everyone else who had come up for contract received one. I think he was well within his rights to ask for a little more. If management thought that was too much then fine, but don't go out and buy a golden-toilet seat for our crumbling outhouse of a defence.

69Chevy396
09-22-2018, 06:24 PM
There you go again , crapping on Osorio, I’m almost certain you must have played youth soccer with or against Osorio and he made it and you didn’t , he is now making in the neighbourhood of 800000 a year playing soccer while you join us fools posting comments on here. The useless players are the likes of Chapman, Zaveletta, Haglund, Ricketts and whoever the medical and training staff is on this team with all the injuries this season. The problem is next season the likes of Mavinga, Moore , Vasquez, Giovinco , Altidore will probably be injured just as much , this club unfortunately is back to the worst team in the world again and it only took what two seasons of success to bring them back to garbage again , good luck filling the 30000 seats at BMO get ready for Argo like attendance coming soon.
Notice when Seba isn’t playing, Osorio runs around yelling at his own players? How he tries to create scoring chances, but never does, or when he is fed a pass onto his weak foot, he screws up, all the time? Osorio can’t create anything out of nothing, the way better players in MLS can. But, he thinks he is Totti, and that makes him special

Hamilton_Red
09-22-2018, 06:25 PM
If you think Van der Wiel is the problem - your missing a lot.

I'd start with Giovinco - I think it's time to replace him. For $7 Million per year I think that we can do better and get a top class striker that is consistent and not a moody petulant brat. The run in for the first MLS Cup run really got me questioning him as a big game player. It was Vazquez and Mavinga that made the difference last year with some magic form from Morrow.

Altidore - is just too injury prone to be a reliable DP value player. Likely he should be replaced as well.

Morrow - is a shadow of the player he was last year. Maybe if he gets his fitness back..he should stay.

Bono- lost us the game today and that must 3-4 games now that he has blown. Need to make a change here.

Zavaletta...OMG did you see him rolling around on the ground on the second goal after falling?

Delgado...again just not the player he was. How patient can we be?

I think it's time for some changes to the DP roles. Another season like this and BMO will be empty again.

69Chevy396
09-22-2018, 06:27 PM
There you go again , crapping on Osorio, I’m almost certain you must have played youth soccer with or against Osorio and he made it and you didn’t , he is now making in the neighbourhood of 800000 a year playing soccer while you join us fools posting comments on here. The useless players are the likes of Chapman, Zaveletta, Haglund, Ricketts and whoever the medical and training staff is on this team with all the injuries this season. The problem is next season the likes of Mavinga, Moore , Vasquez, Giovinco , Altidore will probably be injured just as much , this club unfortunately is back to the worst team in the world again and it only took what two seasons of success to bring them back to garbage again , good luck filling the 30000 seats at BMO get ready for Argo like attendance coming soon.
I have been here longer than you, suffered season tickets for six of the 11 years, I don’t owe you anything.

InDa_110
09-22-2018, 06:27 PM
Should Vanney be fired?

69Chevy396
09-22-2018, 06:28 PM
If you think Van der Wiel is the problem - your missing a lot.

I'd start with Giovinco - I think it's time to replace him. For $7 Million per year I think that we can do better and get a top class striker that is consistent and not a moody petulant brat. The run in for the first MLS Cup run really got me questioning him as a big game player. It was Vazquez and Mavinga that made the difference last year with some magic form from Morrow.

Altidore - is just too injury prone to be a reliable DP value player. Likely he should be replaced as well.

Morrow - is a shadow of the player he was last year. Maybe if he gets his fitness back..he should stay.

Bono- lost us the game today and that must 3-4 games now that he has blown. Need to make a change here.

Zavaletta...OMG did you see him rolling around on the ground on the second goal after falling?

Delgado...again just not the player he was. How patient can we be?

I think it's time for some changes to the DP roles. Another season like this and BMO will be empty again.

Seba is the best thing that ever happened to TFC, hope he stays five more years.

ag futbol
09-22-2018, 06:29 PM
Nobody mentions Delgado or Osorio. Both stunk tonight. I never hated Osorio when he couldn’t score on a one legged dwarf, and I never loved him, when he had a string of easy gimmes, thanks to Seba knowing where his left foot was. But, in a do or die game, he was largely invisible. If this is what we can expect from him in 2019, better to trade him in the off season (If Seba leaves, Osorio scores 5 times next season, tops)
BS, you've been grinding this Osorio axe for weeks. The guy was one of the best performers in last year's playoffs and during the CCL this season. If anything the recent evidence says he is a big game player.

Agreed, not a great game today but give it a rest.

InDa_110
09-22-2018, 06:35 PM
Brutal

SoccMan2
09-22-2018, 06:36 PM
I have been here longer than you, suffered season tickets for six of the 11 years, I don’t owe you anything.
I’ve been a season ticket holder since day one and I’ve been a Toronto pro soccer fan since the early 1970’s with the Toronto Metros, then Metros Croatia then onto the Toronto Blizzard of the old NASL until the league folded in 1984, so been supporting the different Toronto pro soccer teams since the early 70’s and now TFC so I don’t know how long you’ve been following pro soccer in Toronto but I have most of my life .

stegosaurus
09-22-2018, 06:37 PM
Some of this was foreseeable, some of it was not. In totality, it was still a poor move. Think of it this way: does VDW have more of an impact on this team than Walker Zimmerman has in LAFC? Than Matt Hedges has on FCD? Than Besler on SKC? The sad thing is Zimmerman wants a new contract and by the sounds of it his demands to stay are less than what VDW is currently making.

If the goal was strengthening the team as much as possible they went about it the wrong way. It's exactly the same philosophy that lead to bringing in Aketxe to replace one of Osorio or Delgado (who were both serviceable). If Aketxe had worked out and was the right player for that role he would have make the team far better than either of Delgado or Osorio ever will. Unfortunately, a lot of that is now a sunk cost and TFC is taking half that budget charge to pay Aketxe to play elsewhere with the other half likely paying for Osorio's raise.

Beitashour would have probably stayed for an extra 50k. He wasn't looking for the world. He wanted a raise because everyone else who had come up for contract received one. I think he was well within his rights to ask for a little more. If management thought that was too much then fine, but don't go out and buy a golden-toilet seat for our crumbling outhouse of defence.

VDW was an attempt to buy a player who was once talented in the hopes that he’d show up, and he has. Same as clubbing Mavinga, Jozy at an “impressive” PL club, or benched Seba (though not to the same extent). He did. He didn’t cost much more than Beita after you factor in TAM, so it really doesn’t matter. TFC is also paying people money on celebrity factor, in order to make the team more marketable. Is this wise? Probably not, but it’s pretty standard for some teams in big markets. Our backup wingback (Auro) has been okay, but also injured.

Everyone got a raise after an excellent season. Morrow hasn’t played like he did last year after his injury, our defenders have all been out, VDW did better at CB than Bradley (why are we paying Bradley $6 mil a year to play CB?), Zavaleta is hot trash (and more overpaid than VDW in terms of $ to quality on the pitch), Hagglund has been bad too, Bono has made some great saves but let in some head scratchers, Ricketts has been a joke, Hamilton and Bakero aren’t up to snuff, Chapman is mediocre (though his Instagram begs to differ), and without VV, Seba, and Jozy we may as well not even try to score.

The injury issue was real, TFC2 is awful, our bench players aren’t great, and some of the buys were bad. VDW wasn’t a bad buy, even if he was expensive. If our options were spending money on Beita and playing him at CB or VDW, I’d take VDW.

Buying a non garbage player instead of a failed Basque loan would have been much more impactful.

ag futbol
09-22-2018, 06:54 PM
VDW was an attempt to buy a player who was once talented in the hopes that he’d show up, and he has. Same as clubbing Mavinga, Jozy at an “impressive” PL club, or benched Seba (though not to the same extent). He did. He didn’t cost much more than Beita after you factor in TAM, so it really doesn’t matter.
Of course it matters, we're depending on the efficiency of our dollars spent to be competitive with (or better than) other teams in the league. If we spend our TAM on players that have less of an impact it hurts. It's not a black hole.

I'm not arguing VDW is a bad player. His ability to impact the game is simply far less than other positions on the field.

69Chevy396
09-22-2018, 06:54 PM
BS, you've been grinding this Osorio axe for weeks. The guy was one of the best performers in last year's playoffs and during the CCL this season. If anything the recent evidence says he is a big game player.

Agreed, not a great game today but give it a rest.

Look, I don’t hate Osorio. However, the idolatry bestowed on him, mostly from Canadian MSM, is irritating. He is an average MLS midfielder, who scored many goals this year, largely because he played with Seba and Vasquez. When he is out there alone, he has games like today. Hence, it would be foolhardy for Bez to rebuild around him. I am more concerned actually, with the lack of productivity by Morrow, who in my opinion, is a much better player.
For next season, and beyond, we need to replace almost every player who started today.

ag futbol
09-22-2018, 07:03 PM
Look, I don’t hate Osorio. However, the idolatry bestowed on him, mostly from Canadian MSM, is irritating. He is an average MLS midfielder, who scored many goals this year, largely because he played with Seba and Vasquez. When he is out there alone, he has games like today. Hence, it would be foolhardy for Bez to rebuild around him. I am more concerned actually, with the lack of productivity by Morrow, who in my opinion, is a much better player.
For next season, and beyond, we need to replace almost every player who started today.
I too am skeptical if this new Osorio contract will work out. It's a leap of faith based on a watershed performance in a contract year. But I do suggest some of what you're saying is unfair. He has legitimately played much better this year following a great MLS cup performance and deserves credit for it.

As for the team, I'd be tempted to de-assemble some things this off season. It's sad to see it all go down this way because these guys really fought hard for those two years and played their assess off. But sport is cruel and being too sentimental will hurt you.

stegosaurus
09-22-2018, 07:12 PM
Of course it matters, we're depending on the efficiency of our dollars spent to be competitive with (or better than) other teams in the league. If we spend our TAM on players that have less of an impact it hurts. It's not a black hole.

I'm not arguing VDW is a bad player. His ability to impact the game is simply far less than other positions on the field.

I’m not necessarily disagreeing with you, but just that the FO couldn’t have seen the extent of our injuries. VDW over Beita is not a negative move, when plenty of the other ones have been. Could that TAM have been used to buy another player? Yes. However, we spent a bunch of TAM on Aketxe and he was the far more egregious error. Bakero for Hasler? What was the point of that?

VDW was a good signing, performed well (even at CB), and was probably one of the better moves the FO made in terms of bringing in players. Is he expensive? Maybe, but you’re ignoring everything else to focus on the price tag of a guy who has (on the field) been a positive.

Kaz
09-22-2018, 07:43 PM
I’m not necessarily disagreeing with you, but just that the FO couldn’t have seen the extent of our injuries. VDW over Beita is not a negative move, when plenty of the other ones have been. Could that TAM have been used to buy another player? Yes. However, we spent a bunch of TAM on Aketxe and he was the far more egregious error. Bakero for Hasler? What was the point of that?

VDW was a good signing, performed well (even at CB), and was probably one of the better moves the FO made in terms of bringing in players. Is he expensive? Maybe, but you’re ignoring everything else to focus on the price tag of a guy who has (on the field) been a positive.

You could have seen that Vanney's nephew wasn't the right number 3, left him open in the expansion draft protected a promising young Canadian and brought in a capable 3rd centre back in the off season. That would have made all the difference.

bhandsome90
09-22-2018, 07:50 PM
Why do people ride on VDW... He's been arguably the best player on the backline all year because of injuries to Mavinga & Moor. Zavs and Haggs have been garbage this year. They're alright when playing with Mavinga & Moor in a 3-5-2 but terrible in a 4-4-2. The team needs CBs who fit into a 4-4-2 if they want to play it.

stegosaurus
09-22-2018, 08:12 PM
You could have seen that Vanney's nephew wasn't the right number 3, left him open in the expansion draft protected a promising young Canadian and brought in a capable 3rd centre back in the off season. That would have made all the difference.

So you’d prefer we kept Raheem, who I like, but who isn’t great defensively, or better than our other options, shipped nephew who was okay last year with Moor and Mavinga, and left us with who as CB? Is Raheem going to play CB?

They obviously didn’t expect Moor and Mavinga to be out the entire season. If hindsight is what we’re aiming for, why not get rid of Mavinga, Moor, VV, and everyone else who was injured? Pointless.

ensco
09-22-2018, 08:24 PM
I totally agreed on the decision to pick Zavaleta over Raheem. Zavaleta had been far more core to the 2017 success, and had more value as an American.

But in hindsight, it was a mistake. Zavaleta has really regressed. I didn't see that coming.

Defoe
09-22-2018, 08:57 PM
Yeah Raheem is a player we would really value.

This is going to be a very different and interesting offseason.

There are so many question marks with this team.

Giovinco, Altidore, Bradley, Vazquez: The future of our core elite stars are all questionable due to either contract status or injuries

Janson: He's on a 3.7 million buy option. While he's a good player; he's closer to an Osorio, VDW tier; not DP money.

Moor: Really getting up there in age.

Basically there is uncertainty with our 6 best players; and we desperately need 2 more quality CB's.

Most importantly we need to get players who are healthy.

69Chevy396
09-22-2018, 09:22 PM
Yeah Raheem is a player we would really value.

This is going to be a very different and interesting offseason.

There are so many question marks with this team.

Giovinco, Altidore, Bradley, Vazquez: The future of our core elite stars are all questionable due to either contract status or injuries

Janson: He's on a 3.7 million buy option. While he's a good player; he's closer to an Osorio, VDW tier; not DP money.

Moor: Really getting up there in age.

Basically there is uncertainty with our 6 best players; and we desperately need 2 more quality CB's.

Most importantly we need to get players who are healthy.
I think we are in for a tough five years. Even if this current team made the playoffs, and had some success, would anybody feel comfortable next year with most of the same players?
I would keep Seba, Osorio, Delgado, Jansen, Morrow, Bono, Auro and Mavinga. Everyone else is expendable.

TMAN80
09-22-2018, 09:41 PM
Janson is a waste of a Jersey and I fancy even Hamilton would have taken one of those two chances. Janson’s shooting is just so lame. Bez and Vanney rightly so got plaudits for their work last season but there can be no doubt both have let us down this year. Bradley at CH just doesn’t work and is an example of some of the poor line up decisions that has plagued Vanney this season. Also there surely can’t be any doubt Bez has traded us into a far weaker position than we were last year. Letting Beta go was his first mistake and the two replacements VDW and Auro are just not up to the task. He has failed completely to strengthen us up front and letting Hasler go for next to nothing was criminal. If we don’t make the play offs one or both these guys have a lot of questions to answer to keep their jobs

edit - I didn’t know Séba was injured in that meaningless midweek game

This would have made absolutely no difference, and every time I read this from you, I feel like you haven't even watched a game. I'm sorry, but VDW could not have been expected to replace the loss of Mavinga/Moor due to INJURIES, and Beita would have faired no better, as much as I like the guy. Is VDW overpaid, perhaps he is, but he's a much better player. Is Auro as good as Beita? Maybe not if you're considering one aspect of the game, but Auro is much more versatile, younger, and provides more going forward.

Losing Beita this season is likely the one thing that didn't actually impact our results this season, not even in the least. Its a complete waste of time to continue beating that to death.

TFC1154ever
09-22-2018, 10:14 PM
I totally agreed on the decision to pick Zavaleta over Raheem. Zavaleta had been far more core to the 2017 success, and had more value as an American.

But in hindsight, it was a mistake. Zavaleta has really regressed. I didn't see that coming.

I usually agree with most of what you say but, this one I don’t. I’ve been saying it since the start of the 2017 season. He was our weak point in our starting 11. That series against Montreal in 2016, I will always remember how Montreal kept attacking his side of the field, and many mistakes he made. He was sheltered by what in my opinion is the best, or 2nd best CB in the league, and Moor, who a very smart defender CB compared to others in the MLS. Moor is also our only good CB at moving the ball out the back, which for me, hadn’t been talked about enough. Hagglund and Zavaleta are 2 of the worst passing CB’s in the league.

I was screaming for a CB before the year started. Now we need to either get 2 of them, or VDW has to play in the back 3, and we just get 1. Auro is very interesting player for me. I think he’s horrible defensively, but is very good wide player going forward. I’m honestly not worried about Gio or Altidore creating and scoring goals. We need:

1 CB plus GVW moving to CB (or 2 CB’s)
A decent 3rd forward

Those are musts. I’d like to find a better keeper, as Bono has regressed this season, and has always been a horrible passer, but that’s not a major concern.

TMAN80
09-22-2018, 10:23 PM
So you’d prefer we kept Raheem, who I like, but who isn’t great defensively, or better than our other options, shipped nephew who was okay last year with Moor and Mavinga, and left us with who as CB? Is Raheem going to play CB?

They obviously didn’t expect Moor and Mavinga to be out the entire season. If hindsight is what we’re aiming for, why not get rid of Mavinga, Moor, VV, and everyone else who was injured? Pointless.

I would have to say I agree with just about everything you say regarding VDW. The FO signed VDW because our starting 11 was so strong already the last 2 years, and he is an upgrade on what we had at his position. I would say that it was a good move, and actually kept the salary on the field each night, rather than spending the money on bench players that wouldn't really do anything to improve our best 11 each night. Hindsight would tell us we needed 2 CBs/mid/striker but we couldn't have known, and therefor I can't put any blame on Bez for that.
There is an argument to be made about this summer and getting Janson instead of a CB, but who knows. Had we done that, and now Giovinco and Altidore are out, we would have been screaming for a forward.

OgtheDim
09-23-2018, 10:42 AM
A year ago, we all thought Zavaletta was a serviceable #3 CB. We all thought Bono was a good keeper for MLS. We all thought Delgado was a starter on any MLS team. We all thought Ricketts was a decent guy off the bench.

Guys are playing now based on 2017. That happens in this league. A significant portion of our team regressed while the best players all got injured (except for Bradley). The only player who got better was Osorio.

I expect Zavs & Ricketts to be gone. I also think Janson isn't getting picked up. People calling for a complete overhaul havn't been watching Columbus or NYRB. They also are ignoring our own history and what is going on in Orlando. Stability helps a lot in this league.

OgtheDim
09-23-2018, 10:47 AM
The biggest failure for this team over the last 5 seasons is not developing even 1 USL quality defender. That is just absurd.

ag futbol
09-23-2018, 11:35 AM
A year ago, we all thought Zavaletta was a serviceable #3 CB. We all thought Bono was a good keeper for MLS. We all thought Delgado was a starter on any MLS team. We all thought Ricketts was a decent guy off the bench.

Guys are playing now based on 2017. That happens in this league. A significant portion of our team regressed while the best players all got injured (except for Bradley). The only player who got better was Osorio.

I expect Zavs & Ricketts to be gone. I also think Janson isn't getting picked up. People calling for a complete overhaul havn't been watching Columbus or NYRB. They also are ignoring our own history and what is going on in Orlando. Stability helps a lot in this league.
Anyone who has followed Ricketts career could have foreseen the guy was not a capable backup striker. I doubt Zavaletta leaves with his personal ties to the coaching staff. Ricketts would almost be a certainty in my mind. Bono is still a good keeper, he’s just struggling though a cold stretch. It would be nice if he could stop the odd penalty though.

Does thinking long term mean waiting when the most important player on your team is entering a contract year? I think there are a certain number of decisions in the offseason that will be brought to the forefront. Time is not on our side in many respects, unfortunately. Otherwsie, I’d be all for waiting as the long term strategy.

This is blue jays after making the playoffs in 2016 territory. There’s inklings we might not be better in the future than we are right now but can going a new direction be made acceptable to the fan base? Does the money exist to reload?

We have no Tyler Adams or other young influential players coming to the forefront the way RBNY did. Our salary obligations look pretty near fully loaded. Not the best situation, in general.

69Chevy396
09-23-2018, 01:55 PM
Anyone who has followed Ricketts career could have foreseen the guy was not a capable backup striker. I doubt Zavaletta leaves with his personal ties to the coaching staff. Ricketts would almost be a certainty in my mind. Bono is still a good keeper, he’s just struggling though a cold stretch. It would be nice if he could stop the odd penalty though.

Does thinking long term mean waiting when the most important player on your team is entering a contract year? I think there are a certain number of decisions in the offseason that will be brought to the forefront. Time is not on our side in many respects, unfortunately. Otherwsie, I’d be all for waiting as the long term strategy.

This is blue jays after making the playoffs in 2016 territory. There’s inklings we might not be better in the future than we are right now but can going a new direction be made acceptable to the fan base? Does the money exist to reload?

We have no Tyler Adams or other young influential players coming to the forefront the way RBNY did. Our salary obligations look pretty near fully loaded. Not the best situation, in general.

This winter we will see what Bez is really made of. We have many assets that could help the league contenders, and hopefully, he will have the skill to wrestle good young talent by trading Bradley, Altidore, Irwin, VDM, Moor...etc. There is no point holding on to any of the aforementioned players. If we can’t make the playoffs with them, how are we going to do next season, with them a year older? Bradley is the key. He would be a perfect addition to teams like Atlanta or LA, and TFC could pick up a tremendous player or two.
Having written this, I would not want Seba moved. I think in a new Higuain role, he could be our creative attacking mid for many years.

ensco
09-23-2018, 02:29 PM
I think in a new Higuain role, he could be our creative attacking mid for many years.

Seba can get far more than an Higuain type salary though. Higuain makes only $1M. a year.

There has to be a $4-6M bid for Seba in China or Mexico. Eder, a pretty good comparable to Seba, just went from Inter to China for about $6M/year (the mega transfers have cooled off in China, this is exactly the type of deal that market has moved towards in last 12 months). We have to pay at least the low end of that to keep him.

I'd do it, but it's not my money.

stegosaurus
09-23-2018, 04:21 PM
Seba can get far more than an Higuain type salary though. Higuain makes only $1M. a year.

There has to be a $4-6M bid for Seba in China or Mexico. Eder, a pretty good comparable to Seba, just went from Inter to China for about $6M/year (the mega transfers have cooled off in China, this is exactly the type of deal that market has moved towards in last 12 months). We have to pay at least the low end of that to keep him.

I'd do it, but it's not my money.

The megatransfers have cooled off because of a 100% tax on foreign buys, and teams are not going to buy anyone who won’t put butts in seats at this point. They’re mainly targeting cheaper Brazilian/Africans who will actually be tempted to play while they’re there and don’t have much celebrity.

Ultra & Proud
09-24-2018, 08:30 AM
I totally agreed on the decision to pick Zavaleta over Raheem. Zavaleta had been far more core to the 2017 success, and had more value as an American.

But in hindsight, it was a mistake. Zavaleta has really regressed. I didn't see that coming.

I think the only reason Zavaleta was acceptable last year was because he was sandwiched between Beita and Moor, both of whom gave him a lot of cover. This year he is more exposed and he just isn't smart enough football-wise to know where to be. VDW is probably the worst choice beside him as he likes to drift forward to support the offense. I actually think we were better with Morgan at RB because he provided more defensive cover for Zavaleta.

However the simplest answer is to dump Zavaleta. And fast.

Joe Kool
09-24-2018, 08:55 AM
Zavs drives me nuts too. Too many mistakes over and over. Also, every time Bradley plays defense now I know we are going to lose....I said it at the start of the game on Saturday and it happened again. I think VDW did a better job as a CB fill in when he called upon earlier in the year. I think they should have put him in there instead of Bradley and let Bradley play his normal role in front of the defense. Auro (not sure if fully healthy) preferably or Morgan could have filled in at RB. Oh well. We really need something to be sorted out in many areas.

Auzzy
09-24-2018, 01:52 PM
Zavaleta and Hagglund both also had injury-related layoffs. I think they both came back even weaker & slower than before. Add to that they're fairly young & inexperienced; the team was bad; the defense, keeper & defensive midfield were all bad; they each screwed up; they still had to play anyway because our options were limited; their confidence got even worse as a result and they played even worse: classic negative feedback cycle.

stegosaurus
09-26-2018, 06:46 PM
Zavs drives me nuts too. Too many mistakes over and over. Also, every time Bradley plays defense now I know we are going to lose....I said it at the start of the game on Saturday and it happened again. I think VDW did a better job as a CB fill in when he called upon earlier in the year. I think they should have put him in there instead of Bradley and let Bradley play his normal role in front of the defense. Auro (not sure if fully healthy) preferably or Morgan could have filled in at RB. Oh well. We really need something to be sorted out in many areas.

VDW probably would have played CB, but Auro was out too, leaving us with Morgan (who I’m not sure would cut it either, as much as we all love the guy) to slot in there, and he even had to play while Morrow was out... VDW was also out some games.

It was just the perfect storm of injuries, especially defensively, and when forwards start missing games we have no one to score because our attacking depth is terrible as well.

Osorio has played well, but if his form isn’t permanent we could go back to seeing the old Osorio mindlessly losing the ball, blasting the ball into orbit, or doing nothing but passing backwards.

Jansen would obviously be a DP if he was picked up, but is he worth it? If the injury prone players can’t get fit it means they have to blow up the team.

VV was instrumental to our treble, and I don’t see him getting back into it. Moor as well. I’d keep Jozy and Seba, Bradley if we never have to watch him play CB again, and Mavinga if he can get healthy. VDW I don’t mind staying. Morrow too, but he hasn’t been nearly as good as last year.

At the least we need 2 quality CBs, a serviceable backup striker, and either a replacement for VV or another starting striker if Seba moves into that role.

Pretty big offseason.