The tunnel

[firm]

I’ve had it with this tunnel trying to catch a train west bound. after a game , we are always concentrate on the stadium you can’t do this you can’t have that stadium what about the tunnel I’ve already complained to go transit to get a prefab walkway so who ever goes to liberty village won’t have a problem being in the tunnel please get on there case this is the year 2018 anybody love that tunnel your stuck there for about 20mins

[reggie]

i agree..it is so stupid...20k using the tunnel to get across.

[OgtheDim]

City of Toronto & Metrolinx have a plan to build a new tunnel on the West side of the platform. https://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2018/ep/bgrd/backgroundfile-112265.pdf

This is unfunded - mostly because the city is spending billions to build a one stop subway & thus can't afford other improvement & Metrolinx prefers to spend its money on parking lots.

Pray for the World Cup is all I can suggest.

[Thomas]

Completely agree. That tunnel is a disaster waiting to happen. If someone started a fire or set off a smoke bomb down there, there would be a stampede.

[ensco]

It wouldn't cost that much in the scheme of things to build a bridge over the tracks.

[Ultra & Proud]

It wouldn't cost that much in the scheme of things to build a bridge over the tracks.

I've been saying this for years and years. Forget tunneling and for once just do the simple, smarter thing.

[wopchop]

The problem is that the tunnel extension that they worked on for four years (or is it 5) is ALREADY complete - it is just blocked off with hoarding. They just need to open the bloody thing up as a temporary measure. It is irresponsible to wait another half decade for this new unfunded plan to be completed ( if ever).

[firm]

I’m going to contact city tv on Monday , get them to go there after a game and see what crap this is

[ag futbol]

Completely agree. That tunnel is a disaster waiting to happen. If someone started a fire or set off a smoke bomb down there, there would be a stampede.
yeah agreed. As much as the bottleneck makes for some good post game hype there would be a huge problem if any sort of panic broke out.

It's completely shameful the city has allowed this situation to continue on for as long as it has.

[firm]

I’ve just got in touch with cp 24 told him the story said they will definitely follow up ????? , I’m still getting in touch with other media outlets to run this story

[benito]

I've been saying this for years and years. Forget tunneling and for once just do the simple, smarter thing.

I remember going to Jays game as a young kid at the old exhibition stadium and I am pretty sure they used to have a bridge over the tracks. They could easily build a prefab metal bridge and it would improve the congestion considerably.

[Alonso]

Bridge is a no brainer.

Why the fuck would you consider anything else? Just add a cheap bridge!? Why is this so hard? $200,000 and DONE.

Goddamn politics!

[Initial B]

But the bridge will have to look aesthetically pleasing. That will take an architect and community meetings to hammer out a design.

[Thomas]

I think that the bridge will need to be higher due to electrification plans.

[Red4ever]

I hate that tunnel. Someone is going to die at some point. I'm shocked it's still open.

[Red CB Toronto]

Bridge is a no brainer.

Why the fuck would you consider anything else? Just add a cheap bridge!? Why is this so hard? $200,000 and DONE.

Goddamn politics!

Could be no different than say the bridges they put over the track during the Indy to let people cross. Would ease up the exit dramatically for those leaving after the game.

[RealG-TFC]

I love how some suggest just making a quick and cheap pre-fab bridge is a better and safer alternative to a tunnel. A bridge here would be used to carry a quite the load, and would have to meet accessibility requirements so that's two elevators on either end. It would have to be high enough to have enough clearance for trains but also low enough to fit underneath the Gardiner. They haven't finalized if they are adding an east-west street in Liberty Village and whether they are extending the Streetcar tracks to Dufferin.

A quick-fix bridge is exactly what not to do here, and the reason this stuff takes so long is that we have to meet safety requirements to avoid tragedies like the "fast bridge" in Florida a few days ago (Several Dead After Walkway Collapse in Miami (https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/15/us/fiu-bridge-collapse.html)), and there are several stakeholders in the area like the City, Metrolinx, TTC, and Private Land-owners.

If you don't like the tunnel, you can walk to Dufferin or Strachan and cross over the tracks that way. The bulk of our season is in the spring and summer, it's usually a nice walk.

[khso11]

Was thinking of something like this. Very good points by RealG-TFC, that's why a wider smooth slope tunnel might be the way to go. Again, funding would still be a major barrier for any project designs.

https://scontent.fyzd1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t35.0-12/29391439_10156115858761425_1255962082_o.jpg?_nc_ca t=0&oh=ab145550399aeacf30546866afe6d03a&oe=5AB9133B

[TheSloanRanger]

A sling shot would be fun

[Gringo Starr]

A simple modification of the doors would improve things a lot. Right now they have doors with a central pillar so even if the doors are open you have a stupid post obstructing the way, if they switched the doors to ones without the centre post it would speed passage up some.

[Alonso]

I love how some suggest just making a quick and cheap pre-fab bridge is a better and safer alternative to a tunnel. A bridge here would be used to carry a quite the load, and would have to meet accessibility requirements so that's two elevators on either end. It would have to be high enough to have enough clearance for trains but also low enough to fit underneath the Gardiner. They haven't finalized if they are adding an east-west street in Liberty Village and whether they are extending the Streetcar tracks to Dufferin.

A quick-fix bridge is exactly what not to do here, and the reason this stuff takes so long is that we have to meet safety requirements to avoid tragedies like the "fast bridge" in Florida a few days ago (Several Dead After Walkway Collapse in Miami (https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/15/us/fiu-bridge-collapse.html)), and there are several stakeholders in the area like the City, Metrolinx, TTC, and Private Land-owners.

If you don't like the tunnel, you can walk to Dufferin or Strachan and cross over the tracks that way. The bulk of our season is in the spring and summer, it's usually a nice walk.


Obviously they'd have to meet safety requirements. It's a non-issue. Just like the temporary stands and like RedCb said it's been done before for the Indy. Just need something a little more upgraded and permanent.

Is there an elevator in the current tunnel, I don't remember seeing one?

[Auzzy]

Obviously they'd have to meet safety requirements. It's a non-issue. Just like the temporary stands and like RedCb said it's been done before for the Indy. Just need something a little more upgraded and permanent.

Is there an elevator in the current tunnel, I don't remember seeing one?

Yes there are elevators on both sides of the track.

[Alonso]

Yes there are elevators on both sides of the track.


So no need to build more then for the "bridge" that requirement is taken care of, I don't think more capacity for wheelchair access would be needed.

[RealG-TFC]

Obviously they'd have to meet safety requirements. It's a non-issue. Just like the temporary stands and like RedCb said it's been done before for the Indy. Just need something a little more upgraded and permanent.

Is there an elevator in the current tunnel, I don't remember seeing one?

That is a temporary structure for an event that lasts a weekend over a racing track (asphalt, low to the ground Indy cars). Much different to a permanent structure over train tracks for commuter and inter-city rail fit underneath an elevated expressway.

[khso11]

A simple modification of the doors would improve things a lot. Right now they have doors with a central pillar so even if the doors are open you have a stupid post obstructing the way, if they switched the doors to ones without the centre post it would speed passage up some.

But even then, the stairs are a safety hazard when used at over-capacity. Look how wide the stairs are on the south side of the tunnel, but the original concept is to separate the traffic to two smaller set of stairs on the north side. Now that the tunnel is used for more than transit users, the original concept doesn't work. Most of the traffic would go to the stairs that's closer to Atlantic Ave during events, creating a bottleneck.

[Brooker]

That tunnel. People cramming in, stumbling and yanking people out of the way, little kids looking horrified.

What's not to like? Make it smaller I say.

Maybe if enough people started just walking across the tracks and fence they'd get the point.

[OgtheDim]

Bridges over active railroad tracks are more expensive to build & to maintain. For every square foot over you can get far more underneath. You also still have to plan & create the entry & exit spaces to get x amount of people onto that bridge. It is far more feasible to build a tunnel coming out from another street then it is to build a bridge going over from the current entry point.

That & see Florida last week for an example of what happens when people do it cheap.


**********


Something needs to be done.

Unfortunately it won't be done for awhile because the city budgets for transit capital projects are all being fed into one particular project while the Metrolinx portion of this requires both a city partnership & stable transit funding from the province.

The amount of ownership one ties to individuals involved in that city transit budget decision, a decision made in the last mayor's term & now maintained during this mayor's term, might, if one is so inclined, affect how one would vote in coming provincial & municipal elections, given who is running for mayor & who now leads a certain provincial political party. Baring the World Cup coming, the likelihood of something getting done on that tunnel will be directly affected by outcomes in both elections.

[ag futbol]

I’d have full confidence that whatever is built would be do so to a professional standard. The track record of architecture in North America is perfectly fine. They literally give every engineer in Canada a ring made out of a broken bridge as a reminder of their responsibilities. If they build this, rest assured you’re going to be about 1,000,000x more likely to die getting hit by a car on the way to the stadium than you will of a structural failure of the bridge.

Let’s not be tinfoil hat kooks obsessing about risks that are remote.

[glaze]

I think go transit should consider closing off access. It wasn't built to let tfc fans get from liberty village to the stadium, and it's a safety risk.
I don't take it at all after games, it's just easier to walk up strachan, which also wasn't really designed for a few thousand people.
It would be hard for the city to get political support to pay for new access, when liberty village residents are lobbying for a pedestrian bridge to king street.
That leaves metrolinx to build a bridge so that people won't walk through their station. I just don't see it as a priority for them

[wopchop]

I think go transit should consider closing off access. It wasn't built to let tfc fans get from liberty village to the stadium, and it's a safety risk.
I don't take it at all after games, it's just easier to walk up strachan, which also wasn't really designed for a few thousand people.
It would be hard for the city to get political support to pay for new access, when liberty village residents are lobbying for a pedestrian bridge to king street.
That leaves metrolinx to build a bridge so that people won't walk through their station. I just don't see it as a priority for them
If the city did not own BMO field, the expansion would never have been approved without adequate access/egress, and an expanded tunnel (or 2nd tunnel) would have been part of the overall plan. They would have made paying for this project a condition of expansion.

[RedsYNWA]

It is just a matter of time ----Set off a pair of fire crackers in the tunnel==== watch the stampede

[MartinUtd]

I'd rather keep our labour laws intact than wish for the world cup to fix our city. Honestly, fuck the world cup.

[glaze]

I'm more curious what's going to happen in Montreal. How is that stadium going to host the world cup?
The GO tunnel needs to be addressed. Just politically and financially it's complex enough that it will take years.
It's like when Al Bundy tried to build a dog house. It isn't as simple as just building a bridge over the tracks when it involves the city,

[Blindside16]

This is my major pet peeve when attending games. Usually my wife and I wait a minimum 2 trains before attempting the tunnel. It is a nightmare and it is only a matter of time before someone gets seriously hurt. You would figure GO Transits lawyers and insurance providers would push some sort of relief for the tunnel. It will only be a matter of time before someone gets hurt and launches a lawsuit at GO.

[Justin10000]

The stadium and infrastructure can easily handle World Cup crowds.
Its the stadium condition and the God awful pitch thats a huge concern.

[paul-collins]

This is my major pet peeve when attending games. Usually my wife and I wait a minimum 2 trains before attempting the tunnel. It is a nightmare and it is only a matter of time before someone gets seriously hurt. You would figure GO Transits lawyers and insurance providers would push some sort of relief for the tunnel. It will only be a matter of time before someone gets hurt and launches a lawsuit at GO.
My guess is that if the safety concern becomes bad enough for an immediate response, the short term solution will end up being the temporary (game-end-only) closure of the exit from the westbound platform to Atlantic. This will force pedestrians to use Dufferin as the way to exit the Exhibition grounds to access Liberty Village.

Remember, the tunnel was built first and foremost to serve train passengers, it's not intended as a pedestrian right-of-way to connect neighborhoods. (Notwithstanding that it definitely functions that way)

There are plans to provide increased access across the tracks. Unfortunately I can't find a public source for what is planned on the Metrolinx website, but if someone wants to go on Merx there's apparently an RFQ for Lakeshore West that might show what Metrolinx has coming.

[C.Ronaldo]

A simple modification of the doors would improve things a lot. Right now they have doors with a central pillar so even if the doors are open you have a stupid post obstructing the way, if they switched the doors to ones without the centre post it would speed passage up some.

exactly what i thought. It would improve it drastically.

But its still an issue for the mobility challenged. Those stairs are dangerous with that volume of ppl. There will be a stampede one day. I've taken to enjoying the long walk around nowadays

[Red4ever]

My guess is that if the safety concern becomes bad enough for an immediate response, the short term solution will end up being the temporary (game-end-only) closure of the exit from the westbound platform to Atlantic. This will force pedestrians to use Dufferin as the way to exit the Exhibition grounds to access Liberty Village.

Remember, the tunnel was built first and foremost to serve train passengers, it's not intended as a pedestrian right-of-way to connect neighborhoods. (Notwithstanding that it definitely functions that way)

There are plans to provide increased access across the tracks. Unfortunately I can't find a public source for what is planned on the Metrolinx website, but if someone wants to go on Merx there's apparently an RFQ for Lakeshore West that might show what Metrolinx has coming.

Sad to say, but I think it's time to do this.

I would have been one of the people bitching and moaning at this time last year, (and also, the tunnel walks can be so fun when we win) but people should and will get over it.

Pre game is fine. Post game, close the gate.

[jabbronies]

We should get a campaign going like we did back in the day when we wanted grass at BMO - Get supporters and maybe even general fans to write in to their councillor to push for this to happen.

[sidvan]

Bring back the old wooden pedestrian bridge that used to be there before the tunnel? But seriously, have taken to walking around and over on Dufferin...actually get to car/Joes faster than through the tunnel.

[fergiejr]

Story from 2016.

https://globalnews.ca/news/3099205/concerns-over-capacity-of-exhibition-go-station-tunnel-due-to-bmo-field-events/

(https://globalnews.ca/news/3099205/concerns-over-capacity-of-exhibition-go-station-tunnel-due-to-bmo-field-events/)

[fergiejr]

Check this out. It's a history of the Go Transit lakeshore line. It shows the old EX station and how we used to get there. Down the stairs at Dufferin bridge.

https://transit.toronto.on.ca/regional/2101.shtml

https://transit.toronto.on.ca/photos/images/Exhibition_GTR_station_s0372_ss0051_it0159.jpg

[paul-collins]

Those stairs still exist, they're on the west side of Dufferin (both north and south)... You can see the south ones clearly from the Gardiner but the northern ones are mostly overgrown.

Assuming this image isn't flipped, the buildings in the image are long gone. That's approximately where the Gardiner is now.

[wopchop]

My guess is that if the safety concern becomes bad enough for an immediate response, the short term solution will end up being the temporary (game-end-only) closure of the exit from the westbound platform to Atlantic. This will force pedestrians to use Dufferin as the way to exit the Exhibition grounds to access Liberty Village.

Remember, the tunnel was built first and foremost to serve train passengers, it's not intended as a pedestrian right-of-way to connect neighborhoods. (Notwithstanding that it definitely functions that way)

There are plans to provide increased access across the tracks. Unfortunately I can't find a public source for what is planned on the Metrolinx website, but if someone wants to go on Merx there's apparently an RFQ for Lakeshore West that might show what Metrolinx has coming.
This plan would be so bungled that it would probably end up being more dangerous. People would still try to cross through the tunnel, and then have to attempt to turn back and create a huge logjam.

The temporary solution is simple - open up the tunnel extension that they have already built and have blocked with hoarding.

They made an announcement a month ago about an expansion of Exhibition station, which includes a second access across the tracks, but it has no timeline or funding.

See link: https://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2018/ep/bgrd/backgroundfile-112265.pdf


https://urbantoronto.ca/forum/attachments/upload_2018-2-12_13-30-9-png.134639/

[Canary10]

This plan would be so bungled that it would probably end up being more dangerous. People would still try to cross through the tunnel, and then have to attempt to turn back and create a huge logjam.

The temporary solution is simple - open up the tunnel extension that they have already built and have blocked with hoarding.

They made an announcement a month ago about an expansion of Exhibition station, which includes a second access across the tracks, but it has no timeline or funding.

See link: https://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2018/ep/bgrd/backgroundfile-112265.pdf




Where is the tunnel expansion? I have seen the hoarding blocking off sections of the platform, which does limit crowd movement. But I've not seen anything in the tunnel itself. It doesn't look to be any wider to me.

[wopchop]

Where is the tunnel expansion? I have seen the hoarding blocking off sections of the platform, which does limit crowd movement. But I've not seen anything in the tunnel itself. It doesn't look to be any wider to me.

I probably should have said extension instead of expansion. It is not any wider, but it is now longer in preparation for a future extra track. When you are going North through the tunnel, at the end of the hall (where it splits left and right) they extended the tunnel further north towards Liberty Village. That tunnel extension is currently blocked with wood hoarding and could be used now to improve crowding.

[Canary10]

I probably should have said extension instead of expansion. It is not any wider, but it is not longer in preparation for a future extra track. When you are going North through the tunnel, at the end of the hall (where it splits left and right) they extended the tunnel further north towards Liberty Village. That tunnel extension is currently blocked with wood hoarding and could be used now to improve crowding.

No way! I didn't notice that. Thanks.

[eustacchio]

Maybe they should have both trains come in on the same platform after games. I've seen it happen twice before games.

I don't know how much that would alleviate congestion but maybe enough - temporarily.

I do know that a few people will get on the wrong train occasionally.

[Canary10]

Maybe they should have both trains come in on the same platform after games. I've seen it happen twice before games.

I don't know how much that would alleviate congestion but maybe enough - temporarily.

I do know that a few people will get on the wrong train occasionally.

The problem really is the bottleneck going through the tunnel due to the sheer volume. That tunnel was never designed to handle the crowds that go through there after a match.

When was that tunnel built? Really very little foresight in terms of understanding the peak capacity of it. I agree with others, something bad will eventually happen in there.

[paul-collins]

This plan would be so bungled that it would probably end up being more dangerous. People would still try to cross through the tunnel, and then have to attempt to turn back and create a huge logjam.

The temporary solution is simple - open up the tunnel extension that they have already built and have blocked with hoarding.

The extension does not address capacity in the tunnel itself though. Unless the number of stairs up to platform, or the platform itself, are the constriction, opening the extension does nothing to address the throughput.

If I were in charge of the solution blocking off Atlantic, I'd do it at the entrance to the station, preventing everyone except actual riders for GO LSW westbound from entering the tunnel. There would also be counterflow blocks added to stop anyone during this time period from trying to cross southwards.

[YYZ_Fan]

If I were in charge of the solution blocking off Atlantic, I'd do it at the entrance to the station, preventing everyone except actual riders for GO LSW westbound from entering the tunnel.



Good quick band-aid. A few transit employees on megaphones diverting everyone else to Strachan or Dufferin during peak times would help.

Are there any other instances where the tunnel experiences overcrowding? Argos? Or just the 20+ TFC games?

[Auzzy]

The extension does not address capacity in the tunnel itself though. Unless the number of stairs up to platform, or the platform itself, are the constriction, opening the extension does nothing to address the throughput.



It depends how the new stairs on the north side of the tunnel extension are configured. If they go straight up, at the full width of the tunnel, similar to how the stairs are on the south side, it would be a huge help. Most of the congestion now in the tunnel comes from the of majority people squeezing over to the much smaller staircase on the left side -- current north end of the tunnel -- as that's also the shortest path to the Atlantic Ave/Liberty Village exit.

I & a few others usually walk to the right side staircase at that end, to bypass the worst congestion, and double-back along the platform. Not much faster, but it does help with the throughput overall. Also sometimes the train platform is so full, that walking along there adds more problems. There used to be a separate exit off the platform towards the north, near the north-east staircase, but that was closed when the construction started, making a bad situation worse. (Most of the time I actually bike along Strachan or Dufferin for TFC games, therefore avoiding all the problems.)

Believe me, a straight-up full-width staircase at the north end would be a huge help. Also it would separate the pedestrian flows going to the train on the existing west-bound platform, providing even more capacity. However if the new/extended north-side exit still has those much smaller staircases branching off from the tunnel at right angles, then it wouldn't really help.

Of course another tunnel or bridge is the real solution. BTW Metrolinx doesn't just run GO Transit. Their job is the "coordination and integration of all modes of transportation in the Greater Toronto and Hamilton Area" which includes pedestrians, as well as access to the TTC lines in Liberty Village (63 Ossington & King streetcar). Not saying they should pay for a new tunnel or bridge by themselves. I also see there may be some value to prioritizing access for GO Train passengers. But it would only be fulfilling part of Metrolinx's mandate.

[wopchop]

The extension does not address capacity in the tunnel itself though. Unless the number of stairs up to platform, or the platform itself, are the constriction, opening the extension does nothing to address the throughput.

Of course not. But it separates the people heading to the Westbound GO platforms and to Atlantic Avenue. The current log jamb at the staircase on the west side is certainly a factor (as well as the tunnel width) in what is backing everyone up. By allowing people heading to Liberty Village to continue North, instead of stopping and squeezing up that one staircase with GO Train passengers, it would create better flow.

[TFC Tifoso]

closing the tunnel post post game wouldn't be a solution imo, for 2 reasons....
1) people who actually need to access the tunnel to get to the train
2) the very large lot just north of the tunnel where lots of people at the game park....it would be very unreasonable to ask them to detour all around Dufferin then through Liberty Village when the lot is less than 50 steps from the exit of the tunnel

[Red4ever]

closing the tunnel post post game wouldn't be a solution imo, for 2 reasons....
1) people who actually need to access the tunnel to get to the train
2) the very large lot just north of the tunnel where lots of people at the game park....it would be very unreasonable to ask them to detour all around Dufferin then through Liberty Village when the lot is less than 50 steps from the exit of the tunnel

1) The tunnel wouldn't be closed, access to Atlantic Ave would be closed. The tunnel would only serve a purpose for those catching a westbound train.

2) This whole thing is for safety. It's reasonable to ask anyone to do anything if there is a legit fear for the safety of the current situation.

[TFC Tifoso]

1) The tunnel wouldn't be closed, access to Atlantic Ave would be closed. The tunnel would only serve a purpose for those catching a westbound train.

2) This whole thing is for safety. It's reasonable to ask anyone to do anything if there is a legit fear for the safety of the current situation.

1) fair enough

2) I get it, but in 10 years there have been 0 incidents of note. Not saying something should happen before steps are taken to change it, but it seems to me that the real problem is the bottleneck of people outside the tunnel waiting to get in rather than the tunnel itself....it gets pretty orderly once inside and through. I actually had an incident walking out of BMO a few years back post game where I gashed my leg exiting the stadium and ended up getting 8 stitches that night. Needed to get to a hospital quick and had parked at the lot just north of tunnel (luckily my wife was with me to drive). Had that tunnel not been open, I might have been in trouble. Had no problem with people making space for me to get through as quick as possible. Now, that is a rare situation, but at least the option to pass through was there.

[Oldtimer]

1) The tunnel wouldn't be closed, access to Atlantic Ave would be closed. The tunnel would only serve a purpose for those catching a westbound train.

2) This whole thing is for safety. It's reasonable to ask anyone to do anything if there is a legit fear for the safety of the current situation.

There are people who live in condos in Liberty Village. They need to be able to easily catch trains to Toronto. That's what the access to Atlantic Avenue is for, not for people at Exhibition Place to have easy access to bars.

[Oldtimer]

2) I get it, but in 10 years there have been 0 incidents of note. Not saying something should happen before steps are taken to change it,

The disaster at Hillsborough should let everyone know that you need to prevent excess crowding. Just because it isn't at the stadium proper does not make any difference. Anything causing panic and people will be crushed. There could easily be deaths. Anyone who has seriously studied that would realize this. You are counting on people to be orderly all the time but many things can cause a crowd to panic.

[fergiejr]

I have often thought of grabbing the train Eastbound, switching at Union to come back Westbound. Might be faster, depending on when the trains arrive.

In the summer months we hang out a bit after the game and either wait for the players or talk to other supporters. Sometimes we get ice cream. Then head over to the train. Doesn't work too well for mid-week games though - as getting home to sleep is of utmost importance.

Sometimes I think it would be quicker to walk around on Dufferin. Google maps tells me it's a 20 min walk. Works well if you're going back to Joe's. :drinking:

[TFC Tifoso]

The disaster at Hillsborough should let everyone know that you need to prevent excess crowding. Just because it isn't at the stadium proper does not make any difference. Anything causing panic and people will be crushed. There could easily be deaths. Anyone who has seriously studied that would realize this. You are counting on people to be orderly all the time but many things can cause a crowd to panic.

I get that totally...Heysel is another good example as well...I even made the point in my post. But I can't see the factor that triggered those situations happening at the Go tunnel. Of course, any panic situation could definitely trigger "something", but then extrapolate that to any other similar situation (ie. waiting to get into stadium for concert, lineup for security for games at ACC, even walking the concourse at BMO during halftime, etc.), and what do you do then??

I'd rather see something done to ease the bottleneck of people, rather than remove access totally....to me that is the real solution.

[paul-collins]

Believe me, a straight-up full-width staircase at the north end would be a huge help. Also it would separate the pedestrian flows going to the train on the existing west-bound platform, providing even more capacity. However if the new/extended north-side exit still has those much smaller staircases branching off from the tunnel at right angles, then it wouldn't really help.

Of course another tunnel or bridge is the real solution. BTW Metrolinx doesn't just run GO Transit. Their job is the "coordination and integration of all modes of transportation in the Greater Toronto and Hamilton Area" which includes pedestrians, as well as access to the TTC lines in Liberty Village (63 Ossington & King streetcar). Not saying they should pay for a new tunnel or bridge by themselves. I also see there may be some value to prioritizing access for GO Train passengers. But it would only be fulfilling part of Metrolinx's mandate.

Addressing your two points here, look at the image below:

1. The plan does not have property laid out to do a straight up full-width staircase (property in red). Obviously the stairs are planned to be east-west. However the width does appear to be similar to the southern entrance, rather than the narrower platform size that currently is in use.
2. Also note that to the west there is a plan for a second tunnel (in orange). This includes a second "plaza" open space leading to the new tunnel just as it currently exists in the central location.
3. The only uncertainty is the eastern third tunnel, which is contemplated to connnect directly to the streetcar loop / future LRT extension directly.

Nowhere else in the GTA is Metrolinx engaged in strictly pedestrian access. Any improvements external to the core transit (Rapid Transit or Regional Express Rail) mandate are tangential. But obviously it is being considered as part of the Exhibition Station upgrade.

https://urbantoronto.ca/forum/attachments/upload_2018-2-12_13-30-9-png.134639/

[eustacchio]

The problem really is the bottleneck going through the tunnel due to the sheer volume. That tunnel was never designed to handle the crowds that go through there after a match.

When was that tunnel built? Really very little foresight in terms of understanding the peak capacity of it. I agree with others, something bad will eventually happen in there.

Completely agree. I can't even remember the last time I used the tunnel after a game.

[C.Ronaldo]

the citys regard for our safety is appalling

they could at least man the doors with an off duty and have the queue build up more properly for better flow of traffic

[glaze]

We have to remember this is a GO tunnel. It isn't supposed to be used as an entrance way into the ex. It wasn't designed that way.
Is GO going to pay for a new tunnel for people that aren't their customers? For use only maybe 100 times a year for concerts/TFC/Argos, for maybe an hour combined when tunnel traffic is at its peak. Every other day it serves its purpose.
BMO is a city property, on city land. So they'd have to coordinate something and figure out who pays. Its in the millions.
The right play for the city would be to extend atlantic or jeffersson ave right into the cne grounds, problem is the streets dont really line up.
Politically though, they could say it is to relieve some congestion that happens on strachan.
Liberty village traffic is a nightmare, with only more condos being built. I think an investment by the city into bringing more gameday crowds into the area will be met with some backlash.

[eustacchio]

We have to remember this is a GO tunnel. It isn't supposed to be used as an entrance way into the ex. It wasn't designed that way.
Is GO going to pay for a new tunnel for people that aren't their customers? For use only maybe 100 times a year for concerts/TFC/Argos, for maybe an hour combined when tunnel traffic is at its peak. Every other day it serves its purpose.
BMO is a city property, on city land. So they'd have to coordinate something and figure out who pays. Its in the millions.
The right play for the city would be to extend atlantic or jeffersson ave right into the cne grounds, problem is the streets dont really line up.
Politically though, they could say it is to relieve some congestion that happens on strachan.
Liberty village traffic is a nightmare, with only more condos being built. I think an investment by the city into bringing more gameday crowds into the area will be met with some backlash.

If something were to happen in the tunnel (knock on wood) couldn't GO be liable?

[fergiejr]

Alternate route to get around to the westbound platform, walking up Dufferin. 25min walk Google tells me. I might just start doing this...


https://i.imgur.com/0nboZyX.jpg

[Joe Kool]

If I am parked north of the tracks I always use Dufferin bridge even though it is walking a little distance away then back to my car. I don't find it is that bad at all and avoids the frustration of the tunnel and I get to my car faster depending on where I park I think than if I waited in the bottleneck. I refuse to leave a game early ever to avoid things like this as well. And walking is good for us....added bonus. :)

[eustacchio]

Alternate route to get around to the westbound platform, walking up Dufferin. 25min walk Google tells me. I might just start doing this...

It is way quicker than 25 minutes, cutting through parking lots and what not.

[Oblio2]

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/B186qiXlpZ4/maxresdefault.jpg

[Red4ever]

Why stop there?

https://www.euroweeklynews.com/media/k2/items/cache/13175a96e48c80307c995543d2301759_XL.jpg

[Joe Kool]

Just picturing the chaos of a bunch of drunks zip lining across the tracks makes me laugh. Haha

[FluSH]

What an incredible thread!

1. After +10years I’ve discovered a problem I never knew I had lol
2. I can’t believe the amount of engineers here lol

[FluSH]

Why stop there?

https://www.euroweeklynews.com/media/k2/items/cache/13175a96e48c80307c995543d2301759_XL.jpg

LMAO imagine with smoke bombs!

[Red4ever]

Anyone super passionate / informed about this?

There's a reporter doing a story today. I will talk with him, but if someone in the city would rather do it, I can pass that along.

[T-boy]

1) fair enough

2) I get it, but in 10 years there have been 0 incidents of note. Not saying something should happen before steps are taken to change it, but it seems to me that the real problem is the bottleneck of people outside the tunnel waiting to get in rather than the tunnel itself....it gets pretty orderly once inside and through. I actually had an incident walking out of BMO a few years back post game where I gashed my leg exiting the stadium and ended up getting 8 stitches that night. Needed to get to a hospital quick and had parked at the lot just north of tunnel (luckily my wife was with me to drive). Had that tunnel not been open, I might have been in trouble. Had no problem with people making space for me to get through as quick as possible. Now, that is a rare situation, but at least the option to pass through was there.

I've noticed that the overcrowding in the tunnel has got significantly worse since the stadium has been expanded. I used to be able to get through the tunnel with relative ease a few years ago. But since they added the expansion on the east stand the tunnel is now much more crowded. If the stadium had its current capacity form year zero there may well have been a major incident already.

[gunnerken]

Both my buddy and I (independently) felt that the pushing/jostling at the doors has increased quite dramatically over the past few games...I'm ok as I am over 6' and can handle myself, but I feel for other women and kids who just aren't able to hold their ground as well...anyone who believes that there isn't an imminent bad scene in this tunnel is fooling themselves...the situation is particularly exacerbated when there are "salmon" swimming upstream and the bottleneck at the doors is compounded...

[TFC Tifoso]

I dunno.....I've never felt in any danger and I use the tunnel for every game, but I can understand that some do not feel this way.....I guess all I can say is that for people that think its a dangerous situation, then just don't use it anymore. Not trying to be an ass, but I just can't see something being done about it in the near future......

Personally, I see the crowd in front of the tunnel as no different in numbers or "probability for danger" as the mob of people waiting to pass security by Gate 1 before a game....all it will take is for 1 yahoo to do something stupid there and its a similar situation imo.....

[ensco]

Personally, I see the crowd in front of the tunnel as no different in numbers or "probability for danger" as the mob of people waiting to pass security by Gate 1 before a game....all it will take is for 1 yahoo to do something stupid there and its a similar situation imo.....

I think it is different. Panic in a space without walls and fences, however crowded, is not nearly so dangerous.

But with walls or fences and crowds, people can get trampled/suffocated in enclosed spaces.

People think of Hillsborough and, because terraces and herding practices are a thing of the past, that can't happen anymore. So they think the danger is dealt with. But the great tragedy when I was a kid was at Ibrox, and that can happen again, and that GO tunnel has the potential, however small, to have something occur like that someday.

It's been a while, so for those who don’t know...
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1971_Ibrox_disaster

This is a great thread, and hopefully can somehow be a catalyst for change.If nothing else, police need to be stationed at the tunnel doors, regulating the flow in there.

[Rene Kingsriver]

We seem to be having tunnel problems all around at BMO g:D

[Red4ever]

Chatted with Global TV. Tried to make a lot of the points that you all raised in here and stress the concern without getting too doom and gloom.

Hopefully some better planning comes from it.

[TheSloanRanger]

Still safer than the players tunnel at bmo

[Auzzy]

I walked a huge detour via Dufferin after the RSL game to avoid the tunnel. Last night, I took the streetcar to avoid the tunnel, rather than walking through & taking the much shorter trip with the 63 bus. Note also that Liberty Village folks are pretty pissed about bad planning, poor transit and lack of many different amenities as it is, in an area that has grown to a huge population. When you get off the 511/509 streetcar to get to BMO, "walkway to Liberty Village" is actually part of the station announcement. You can bet Liberty Village folks would be rightfully pissed if access via the tunnel were restricted.

Another thing I noticed: the sidewalk across the Dufferin St. bridge is actually much smaller than the tunnel at the Ex station, especially due to the "temporary" bridge put in place many years ago on Dufferin. Part of the problem is the greater jam of people arriving at the tunnel (rather than smaller amounts of people, more evenly spaced out, arriving at the Dufferin bridge). But my main point: it's really the narrow staircases & doors at the north end of the tunnel that are the problem; not the tunnel itself.

Easy fix for after the games: talk to some experts who are familiar with pedestrian access and flows (yes they exist). Figure out how many doors on the southside of the tunnel equal the capacity of the staircases on the north side. Only leave that many doors open as entrances to the tunnel on the south side after the games. (Maybe reserve 1 additional door on the south side, manned by cops & GO security, only for exit from the tunnel & for handicapped access.) And of course have security around non-stop to open all doors on the south if there's an emergency & everybody needs to get out.

The way congestion works: more people will fit through the tunnel if you never let it get jammed in the first place. Instead of allowing dangerous crowds to develop inside there, let people stack up in the open area south of the entrances, where they're even covered from the rain, and it's all open if there's ever an emergency. Plus the visible crowd will convince more people to take Strachan or Dufferin, which is also good.

The real issue: nuts that in the biggest city in Canada, the whole thing including the existing construction on the north side, possible additional tunnels or bridges, endlessly-delayed transit construction, and everything else, needs to be so complicated and incredibly slow.

[C.Ronaldo]

I walked a huge detour via Dufferin after the RSL game to avoid the tunnel. Last night, I took the streetcar to avoid the tunnel, rather than walking through & taking the much shorter trip with the 63 bus. Note also that Liberty Village folks are pretty pissed about bad planning, poor transit and lack of many different amenities as it is, in an area that has grown to a huge population. When you get off the 511/509 streetcar to get to BMO, "walkway to Liberty Village" is actually part of the station announcement. You can bet Liberty Village folks would be rightfully pissed if access via the tunnel were restricted.

Another thing I noticed: the sidewalk across the Dufferin St. bridge is actually much smaller than the tunnel at the Ex station, especially due to the "temporary" bridge put in place many years ago on Dufferin. Part of the problem is the greater jam of people arriving at the tunnel (rather than smaller amounts of people, more evenly spaced out, arriving at the Dufferin bridge). But my main point: it's really the narrow staircases & doors at the north end of the tunnel that are the problem; not the tunnel itself.

Easy fix for after the games: talk to some experts who are familiar with pedestrian access and flows (yes they exist). Figure out how many doors on the southside of the tunnel equal the capacity of the staircases on the north side. Only leave that many doors open as entrances to the tunnel on the south side after the games. (Maybe reserve 1 additional door on the south side, manned by cops & GO security, only for exit from the tunnel & for handicapped access.) And of course have security around non-stop to open all doors on the south if there's an emergency & everybody needs to get out.

The way congestion works: more people will fit through the tunnel if you never let it get jammed in the first place. Instead of allowing dangerous crowds to develop inside there, let people stack up in the open area south of the entrances, where they're even covered from the rain, and it's all open if there's ever an emergency. Plus the visible crowd will convince more people to take Strachan or Dufferin, which is also good.

The real issue: nuts that in the biggest city in Canada, the whole thing including the existing construction on the north side, possible additional tunnels or bridges, endlessly-delayed transit construction, and everything else, needs to be so complicated and incredibly slow.

agreed, all we need is a few arrows and and qeues.

its like car traffic, you can increase flow volume while decreasing speed with roundabouts

[TFC Tifoso]

I think it is different. Panic in a space without walls and fences, however crowded, is not nearly so dangerous.

But with walls or fences and crowds, people can get trampled/suffocated in enclosed spaces.

People think of Hillsborough and, because terraces and herding practices are a thing of the past, that can't happen anymore. So they think the danger is dealt with. But the great tragedy when I was a kid was at Ibrox, and that can happen again, and that GO tunnel has the potential, however small, to have something occur like that someday.

It's been a while, so for those who don’t know...
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1971_Ibrox_disaster

This is a great thread, and hopefully can somehow be a catalyst for change.If nothing else, police need to be stationed at the tunnel doors, regulating the flow in there.

oops....I mean about the crowd outside the tunnel and not the tunnel itself...outside of it is where i think any potential for trouble would be.....once inside the tunnel I find things move quite orderly (ie. no pushing/jostling)....but as always, just my opinion....

[Sonny Cheeba]

Get Mr. SmartTrack to walk through it after a match.

[magmadragon]

Another thing I noticed: the sidewalk across the Dufferin St. bridge is actually much smaller than the tunnel at the Ex station, especially due to the "temporary" bridge put in place many years ago on Dufferin.

Speaking of - when that thing was announced my jaw hit the floor. You mean the city is going to go through the trouble of demoing a bridge, closing the railway and gardiner as required, and building a new one, but that new one is only temporary? If you're gonna spend the money, then build the permanent one since this one took months to get done anyways.

Slightly related: Is the Dowling bridge ever coming back or is it just that pedestrian one going forward?

[Derko]

We have to remember this is a GO tunnel. It isn't supposed to be used as an entrance way into the ex. It wasn't designed that way.
Is GO going to pay for a new tunnel for people that aren't their customers? For use only maybe 100 times a year for concerts/TFC/Argos, for maybe an hour combined when tunnel traffic is at its peak. Every other day it serves its purpose.
BMO is a city property, on city land. So they'd have to coordinate something and figure out who pays. Its in the millions.
The right play for the city would be to extend atlantic or jeffersson ave right into the cne grounds, problem is the streets dont really line up.
Politically though, they could say it is to relieve some congestion that happens on strachan.
Liberty village traffic is a nightmare, with only more condos being built. I think an investment by the city into bringing more gameday crowds into the area will be met with some backlash.

I agree, but I am using the tunnel for GO train purposes to and from matches. Now and then to access Atlantic Avenue. So in essence it is a public thoroughfare.

[Derko]

agreed, all we need is a few arrows and and qeues.

its like car traffic, you can increase flow volume while decreasing speed with roundabouts


http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-vfzGwJbt3ok/Ta4DdwUCkMI/AAAAAAAAAZQ/9HcDZM2-HdQ/s1600/penguin+footer.jpg

[ensco]

I don’t think anyone is asking GO Transit to fix this.

[Couchy81]

Article from yesterday. Metrolinx says 2020-2023.

https://globalnews.ca/news/4126498/exhibition-go-station-tunnel-toronto-fc-games-bmo-field/

[C.Ronaldo]

Article from yesterday. Metrolinx says 2020-2023.

https://globalnews.ca/news/4126498/exhibition-go-station-tunnel-toronto-fc-games-bmo-field/

wow we work fast!

Next up. FREE ICE CREAM DAY!

[Auzzy]

wow we work fast!

Next up. FREE ICE CREAM DAY!

Nah, butter. We deserve butter. Still waiting for my gravy boat as well.

[Hamilton_Red]

To be honest Toronto's public transport infrastructure is a generation behind most real world class cities. There still isn't the willingness to fund and develop it properly. Hoping that a couple of early round minor games in a 40k stadium for a expanded but shattered FIFA World Cup (will it be the same after Russia and Qatar?) is sad really. The smart cities are passing on the WC and the Olympics now...it's not the way to justify infrastructure improvement.

There is major safety and security risk in that tunnel and it should be addressed as a priority.

[MightyDM]

They should, with proper crowd control, walkway, fences, gates, etc simply let enough people cross the tracks at grade to take the pressure off. Game day only. At a specific time so VIA and GO can plan. 5-7 minutes should be enough. Inexpensive so could to do it for the next game.

[Oldtimer]

They should, with proper crowd control, walkway, fences, gates, etc simply let enough people cross the tracks at grade to take the pressure off. Game day only. At a specific time so VIA and GO can plan. 5-7 minutes should be enough. Inexpensive so could to do it for the next game.

That would cause tremendous problems. People would get used to crossing the tracks, then start ignoring if it's the specific time. Someone would get killed.

[Red CB Toronto]

That would cause tremendous problems. People would get used to crossing the tracks, then start ignoring if it's the specific time. Someone would get killed.

Plus there are fences between the two outside tracks that VIA uses,, having people cross tracks is a bad idea in so many ways.

[GuelphStorm2007]

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/B186qiXlpZ4/maxresdefault.jpg
I think they got something like this in Meddilain Colombia to transport people who are located in the hills to the city

[OgtheDim]

Well, sir, there's nothin' on earth like a genuine bona-fide electrified six-car monorail!




My job here is done

[cherono]

In past years during the Indy, race fences (and more specifically the 30 foot gap that was kept open) would serve to corral people at the street, rather than the doors to the tunnel. That worked well.

Create the gridlock at a point where people can head east to Strahan, west to Dufferin, or file through some sort of gateway before reaching the gardiner (and the omnishambles of everyone waddling through two doors). The difference in tunnel pedestrian flow when those race walls were there was incredible.

Concrete bollards and cheap fencing (already on site at the Ex), and it’s a cheap, easy and effective fix. Plus there are generally officers working that intersection on game days already.

[paul-collins]

They should, with proper crowd control, walkway, fences, gates, etc simply let enough people cross the tracks at grade to take the pressure off. Game day only. At a specific time so VIA and GO can plan. 5-7 minutes should be enough. Inexpensive so could to do it for the next game.
There's a saying in the rail biz: Every Rule Is Written In Blood.

This idea is not good.

[BenRhodes23]

My article for Waking the Red about liberty village and the building of a new bridge:

https://www.wakingthered.com/2018/4/8/17210950/liberty-village-and-the-tunnel-how-to-get-the-crowd-moving-faster-toronto-fc

[wopchop]

Ben, the bridge that was announced does not assist with crossing from the Ex to Liberty Village over the Lakeshore West corridor. The announced bridge will span the Kitchener/Milton train corridor, spanning from Douro to Western Battery.

[BenRhodes23]

Ben, the bridge that was announced does not assist with crossing from the Ex to Liberty Village over the Lakeshore West corridor. The announced bridge will span the Kitchener/Milton train corridor, spanning from Douro to Western Battery.

Indeed, but it provides another way to get from the exhibition grounds to liberty village and isn't much further than the Dufferin Street Bridge. It won't make a huge difference but it will provide a bit of relief until one is built @ Exhibition Station

[wopchop]

Indeed, but it provides another way to get from the exhibition grounds to liberty village and isn't much further than the Dufferin Street Bridge. It won't make a huge difference but it will provide a bit of relief until one is built @ Exhibition Station
No it doesn't. It doesn't connect into the Ex grounds at all.
Anyone coming from BMO Field that wants to use that new bridge will still need to cross at the GO tunnel (or walk east all the way to Strachan and double back), so the bottleneck point will stay the same.

https://www.toronto.ca/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/8fd5-pcu-king-liberty-pedestrian-map-study-area-500x410.jpg

[molenshtain]

I mean, on the bright side the latest we'll have to deal with this is up until the world cup. MLSE or the city is gonna have to buy and or knock down the food court in order to accommodate the new north stand. At that point they'll have to figure out a new tunnel/pathway to better accommodate the increase in bodies going through it.

so, I think this is very likely gonna get fixed eventually. Just probably won't get fixed until it is absolutely necessary.

[JT Red127]

Indeed, but it provides another way to get from the exhibition grounds to liberty village and isn't much further than the Dufferin Street Bridge. It won't make a huge difference but it will provide a bit of relief until one is built @ Exhibition Station

Yeah as others have noted the bridge, which has been a very long time planned/coming is only making it easier to cross the tracked from King to the heart of Liberty. It will have zero impact on the tunnel or access to the Ex grounds.

[pdogg]

There is supposed to be a "Liberty Village" stop added to the Kitchener / UP Express Line - so this bridge may be part of that overall plan.

[leafsman]

I'm tempted to take the train to Union and taking the next westbound train from there to avoid the tunnel and having to squeeze onto the westbound train at the ex.

[Chevy]

They should, with proper crowd control, walkway, fences, gates, etc simply let enough people cross the tracks at grade to take the pressure off. Game day only. At a specific time so VIA and GO can plan. 5-7 minutes should be enough. Inexpensive so could to do it for the next game.

Next to signing Paul Dickov, this is the worst idea I have ever heard on this board.

[Red4ever]

I mean, Go trains do cross streets and highways on 15 minute loops north of the city, but that's on roadways void of alcohol and mass crowds.

The goal of this thread was to mitigate danger, and though in theory, one should be able to create a walk way, it would most certainly be more dangerous than the current set up.

[Canary10]

Next to signing Paul Dickov, this is the worst idea I have ever heard on this board.

Thanks for my laugh of the day. I needed that!

[Couchy81]

I'm tempted to take the train to Union and taking the next westbound train from there to avoid the tunnel and having to squeeze onto the westbound train at the ex.

Hey when the fares drop to $3 next year that'll be the GO equivalent to taking the Eastbound subway from Yonge&Bloor to Sherbourne then hopping on the empty Westbound train back through the rush.

[Kaz]

Next to signing Paul Dickov, this is the worst idea I have ever heard on this board.

I say we higher Paul Dickov to design and manage the solution for the tunnel with no oversite or inspections.

[Parkdale]

the tunnel was at peak capacity before the major BMO expansion of the past few years. Adding an extra 10,000 people to the stadium without an expanded plan to deal with them was an oversight.

I walk the Dufferin Bridge now, and kill time before going to the train station.

[Ponderosa]

the tunnel was at peak capacity before the major BMO expansion of the past few years. Adding an extra 10,000 people to the stadium without an expanded plan to deal with them was an oversight.

I walk the Dufferin Bridge now, and kill time before going to the train station.

Problem is the Dufferin bridge is really narrow...its not much better, just an above ground cage. After the final last December I ended up some how on the street side instead of the pedestrian walk facing traffic- a disaster of another kind.