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Red CB Toronto
11-05-2017, 08:22 PM
It appears that things got quite out of hand at halftime when the Reds and Red Bulls went at it in the tunnel for all those in the club to see. To tell you the truth the Red Bulls had no business being there as it was way past the point of where they should have turned for their own locker room. It really is all summed up with Greg Vanney yelling "Why Are You Here". I am sure the league will look at this, let's see is Jozy is given some reprieve thus not being suspended for the opening leg at the Crew.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pB20naV11FM

Richard
11-05-2017, 09:16 PM
Red Bulls are a bunch of thugs.

InDa_110
11-05-2017, 09:42 PM
I know the tunnel very well.

The NYRB should have made a left hand turn down a hallway at least 20 feet from where this video was shot from. Not be all That way past where they were supposed to turn. That would be back to the right of where the camera person was. The NYRB go down a hall and make a right, then an immediate left into their dressing rooms. TFC's room is to the left of the shot then on the right side. A further 15 feet or so away. Maybe more. Vanney is right. What the fuck were they doing there??!!!

Couchy81
11-05-2017, 09:42 PM
Low class shit right there. Ref lost this game before haltime.

grizzle
11-05-2017, 09:45 PM
Another video discussing the incident from MLS https://twitter.com/mattdoyle76/status/927329343767846912

TheSloanRanger
11-05-2017, 10:00 PM
Wendell Clark delivered the ball today, just saying ...

grizzle
11-05-2017, 10:20 PM
ANother angle https://twitter.com/iamtoddytickles/status/927306660330090496

DinamoTFC
11-06-2017, 12:11 AM
Nyrb had no right to be on tfc end of the tunnel. Pure garbage thuggery by them. Jozy's red needs to be overturned or this disciplinary committee is seen as a joke just like the ref today.

Vanney yelling at Marsch....priceless

Hamilton_Red
11-06-2017, 04:37 AM
Yeah Vanney was brilliant in the video. Telling Marsch “why are you here? Get the fuck out of here”.

GhostKiller
11-06-2017, 10:10 AM
I'm not convinced the league will overturn the Jozy red card. They can't get "in game" VAR right, what makes anyone think they can get hallway VAR right. Also, is the league going to come out and say that NJ shouldn't have been there and instigated the fight, and possibly deal with having to further sanction NJ? Probably not. This league has shown it rather turn a blind eye then deal with proper decisions.

dal524
11-06-2017, 10:17 AM
Was penso or any other ref even in the tunnel at that point. I believe moor states he wasnt there so how can he even issue red cards for that. Very strange that hes issuing cards at halftime off the field. What a gong show

pdubs
11-06-2017, 10:26 AM
Was penso or any other ref even in the tunnel at that point. I believe moor states he wasnt there so how can he even issue red cards for that. Very strange that hes issuing cards at halftime off the field. What a gong show

4th official was in the tunnel watching it apparently. According to David Gass of MLS soccer website.

Jack
11-06-2017, 10:44 AM
What a fucking joke. MLS is a joke.

Red4ever
11-06-2017, 10:51 AM
What a fucking joke. MLS is a joke.

Seconded. They won't overturn it if Silviu was there.

They should however, issue an apology to Altidore for poor policy that put him in that position. Sasha will be suspended for a couple games.

arsenal
11-06-2017, 10:55 AM
Seconded. They won't overturn it if Silviu was there.

They should however, issue an apology to Altidore for poor policy that put him in that position. Sasha will be suspended for a couple games.

If I am not mistaken Petrescu actually ran onto the field before the final whistle of the half to separate Altidore and NYRB. He obviously saw that situation was escalating and should have ensured that the situation could not continue at halftime.

TFC Tifoso
11-06-2017, 11:09 AM
Vanney=legend

C.Ronaldo
11-06-2017, 11:53 AM
If I am not mistaken Petrescu actually ran onto the field before the final whistle of the half to separate Altidore and NYRB. He obviously saw that situation was escalating and should have ensured that the situation could not continue at halftime.

This is on Petrescu, its his job (plus security) to make sure this doesnt happen

This could haev gotten really bad, lucky no one seriously injured (include a fan) or Sacha's head through that glass wall

C.Ronaldo
11-06-2017, 12:02 PM
What a fucking joke. MLS is a joke.

agreed

this is a stain on MLS. this is the reason I stopped playing rec league bullshit, and the same shit is happening in a pro league?

Hamilton_Red
11-06-2017, 04:54 PM
Gimme a break...Keane and Viera ...this happens all the time in competitive football. There is nothing to fret about hear.

Jack
11-06-2017, 05:02 PM
Gimme a break...Keane and Viera ...this happens all the time in competitive football. There is nothing to fret about hear.

I don't care that it happened. These guys are playing hard and getting heated. The way MLS officials handled the match and this situation is a joke.

leedsandTFC
11-06-2017, 05:35 PM
so what do we think the chances of the card being rescinded here are?

JuliquE
11-06-2017, 05:40 PM
Gimme a break...Keane and Viera ...this happens all the time in competitive football. There is nothing to fret about hear.
Oooh, edgy.

Blindside16
11-06-2017, 05:54 PM
If Jozy's red doesn't get rescinded, they need to heavily fine Marsch, NYRB organization as well as hit that mustached bitch with an additional 5 games. But they won't because this is MLS. Penso should never see a peewee level game again never mind an MLS game. Back on topic, I hope it get rescinded but we should not hold our breath.

wopchop
11-06-2017, 06:37 PM
so what do we think the chances of the card being rescinded here are?
No chance, I think.

Hugh Jazz
11-06-2017, 06:40 PM
I can't see Altidore's red being rescinded but it would be nice if there were additional consequences for NYRB. How are the RB supporters reacting to this? You'd hope they be embarrassed by Marsch and Co's approach.

General Woolfe
11-06-2017, 06:48 PM
so what do we think the chances of the card being rescinded here are?

We're more likely to see Jozy's ban extended to 2-3 games than we are to see it rescinded

FluSH
11-06-2017, 07:03 PM
Wendell Clark delivered the ball today, just saying ...

Haha

FluSH
11-06-2017, 07:04 PM
If Jozy's red doesn't get rescinded, they need to heavily fine Marsch, NYRB organization as well as hit that mustached bitch with an additional 5 games. But they won't because this is MLS. Penso should never see a peewee level game again never mind an MLS game. Back on topic, I hope it get rescinded but we should not hold our breath.

Agreed

denime
11-06-2017, 07:12 PM
We still don't know ,was straight red or yellow,hence two yellow cards=red.

Im sure TFC would not appeal if thise tapes don't work in our advantage.

If it was straight red,maybe we get downgraded to yellow,since that would be his 2nd, and red card would be only 1 game. Straight red is violent conduct and it can be 3 games or more.

Redcoe15
11-06-2017, 07:12 PM
Jozy's red card needs to be rescinded. And Marsch needs to be fined and suspended for that bullshit act in the tunnel. This could cost our side in the Eastern Final and the Red Bullshits would be perfectly happy with it. MLS looks like a fucking bush league joke.

OgtheDim
11-06-2017, 08:05 PM
Vanney seemed pretty confident the evidence of tapes is conclusive as to what happened. Whether the league does anything is another matter.

Areathrasher
11-06-2017, 08:14 PM
If I was a betting man

Both red cards overturned
Fines for both teams
Fines for both coaches

Redcoe15
11-06-2017, 08:20 PM
If I was a betting man

Both red cards overturned
Fines for both teams
Fines for both coaches
And a big fat suspension for Marsch!

ensco
11-06-2017, 08:21 PM
My bet is no reductions or anything of the sort happens. They won't show up Petrescu. They probably need to add some big fines to make a stronger statement about how wrong this was. That's what I expect.

The two videos I have seen are compelling watching, kind of mesmerizing (can we put Vanney yelling “get the eff out of here” on a loop on the scoreboard pre game) ... but really show nothing in terms of who started it.

Unfortunately, Jozy's act late in the first half in that skirmish has sealed his fate. I suspect, even if somehow NY landed the first punch, his retaliation will have been violent enough to keep the red card on the books.

The only way this changes is if some sort of evidence comes out that shows that this was obviously premeditated by NY - if it was, there will be heavy additional fines and suspensions on NY.

trane
11-06-2017, 08:24 PM
What a fucking joke. MLS is a joke.

It is is. The refs most of all are incredible. They were lucky they did not cause a riot with all the shit calls.

What about the VAR???????

trane
11-06-2017, 08:27 PM
They let Jozy and Seba be hacked game after game. Jozy because he is bigger then anyone, defenders can do about anything they please, and Seba is routinely hacked and tripped and nothing. It has to get frustrating. AND despite all of this, despite the red card, they still had to call two goals back for them to win. THEN THEY SAY THAT WE ARE LUCKY TO GET THROUGH!!!!!!!!!! What bull shit.

backbeat
11-06-2017, 08:44 PM
My bet is no reductions or anything of the sort happens. They won't show up Petrescu. They probably need to add some big fines to make a stronger statement about how wrong this was. That's what I expect.

The two videos I have seen are compelling watching, kind of mesmerizing (can we put Vanney yelling “get the eff out of here” on a loop on the scoreboard pre game) ... but really show nothing in terms of who started it.

Unfortunately, Jozy's act late in the first half in that skirmish has sealed his fate. I suspect, even if somehow NY landed the first punch, his retaliation will have been violent enough to keep the red card on the books.

The only way this changes is if some sort of evidence comes out that shows that this was obviously premeditated by NY - if it was, there will be heavy additional fines and suspensions on NY.


not sure what you mean as NYRB players and staff were very clearly in TFC's tunnel area, far away from where they're change room is - if the security video shows NYRB's came after Jozy into TFC area I can't see how they can't reverse the red card and add massive fines to NY

backbeat
11-06-2017, 08:45 PM
They let Jozy and Seba be hacked game after game. Jozy because he is bigger then anyone, defenders can do about anything they please, and Seba is routinely hacked and tripped and nothing. It has to get frustrating. AND despite all of this, despite the red card, they still had to call two goals back for them to win. THEN THEY SAY THAT WE ARE LUCKY TO GET THROUGH!!!!!!!!!! What bull shit.

this ^ absolutely!!

JoeM
11-06-2017, 08:48 PM
Can we have a "get the @#$%" out of here! - Greg Vanney" tifo for when Red Bulls come to BMO next season?

lobo
11-06-2017, 08:54 PM
Vanney seemed pretty confident the evidence of tapes is conclusive as to what happened. Whether the league does anything is another matter.

Clearly it was NYRB game plan to unsettle us, and the fuckers carried it out with precision. And the pathetic MLS refs let it get out of hand early. But, even if there is conclusive evidence that Klejstan and NYRB instigated the tunnel incident, it's not likely going to affect Jozy's red if he reacted violently to it. Retaliation always gets punished. Otherwise, what's the argument to be made? ... that Klejstan was going to kill him? and Jozy threw him against a wall in total self-defence cause his life was in danger? Not likely. You could see Jozy was steaming. Personally, i think the best outcome is that Jozy's red gets downgraded to yellow, and he is out one game. I don't even want to think that he could be out for the rest of the playoff run with a red for violent conduct.

backbeat
11-06-2017, 09:01 PM
Clearly it was NYRB game plan to unsettle us, and the fuckers carried it out with precision. And the pathetic MLS refs let it get out of hand early. But, even if there is conclusive evidence that Klejstan and NYRB instigated the tunnel incident, it's not likely going to affect Jozy's red if he reacted violently to it. Retaliation always gets punished. Otherwise, what's the argument to be made? ... that Klejstan was going to kill him? and Jozy threw him against a wall in total self-defence cause his life was in danger? Not likely. You could see Jozy was steaming. Personally, i think the best outcome is that Jozy's red gets downgraded to yellow, and he is out one game. I don't even want to think that he could be out for the rest of the playoff run with a red for violent conduct.


well i guess we have to wait and see

if, as Nick Hagglund said in his interview on the TFC site, and others have concurred, that he saw Klejstan come into TFC's tunnel area and grab Jozy from behind then one could very well say it was a self defensive reaction.

if there's video evidence and eye witnesses - then we'll see.

ensco
11-06-2017, 09:20 PM
not sure what you mean as NYRB players and staff were very clearly in TFC's tunnel area, far away from where they're change room is - if the security video shows NYRB's came after Jozy into TFC area I can't see how they can't reverse the red card and add massive fines to NY

If they just wound up there because that's how the fight unfolded, that's one thing. If they stalked them gang-style, and the fight started down there, that's a different thing.

Initial B
11-06-2017, 09:29 PM
What are the odds of a $50-100K fine levied against each organization by the MLS DisCo as a deterrent to teams mucking it up?

backbeat
11-06-2017, 09:33 PM
If they just wound up there because that's how the fight unfolded, that's one thing. If they stalked them gang-style, and the fight started down there, that's a different thing.


agreed

cmonyoureds
11-06-2017, 09:50 PM
It’s becoming farcical how much content about the dust up is on the MLS page, and yet no official word on any review of the incident.
Really not a good look for the league.
MLS is looking like shyte right now.

ensco
11-06-2017, 10:01 PM
What are the odds of a $50-100K fine levied against each organization by the MLS DisCo as a deterrent to teams mucking it up?

This is close to what I suspect is coming.

reggie
11-06-2017, 11:18 PM
i watched the replay of the game and i was shocked on how much praise the tsn boys were giving the njrbullshite,especially caldwell drooling over adams and mr push in the back Long,apparently its not a foul when you push somebody in the back in the playoffs .caldwell is brutal ....

jloome
11-06-2017, 11:29 PM
i watched the replay of the game and i was shocked on how much praise the tsn boys were giving the njrbullshite,especially caldwell drooling over adams and mr push in the back Long,apparently its not a foul when you push somebody in the back in the playoffs .caldwell is brutal ....

I like his commentary generally but he has the same problem as Jason De Vos, a complete inability to see the game as anything but a defender who likes hard play.

Globetrotter
11-06-2017, 11:42 PM
It's probably best to take our lumps and have Jozy serve the suspension for the first game. Best case scenario is the wipe out the yellow/red (whatever was issued in the hall), which would still leave him at 1 yellow for the game in CLB. Could the refs be itching for the first opportunity to give him another so he misses the game in Toronto? That's not something we would want to see.

We can squeeze out some positives in CLB, and even if it is a loss, Jozy and Seba will come back to the home game raging to score 10 goals each, and with our support we could absolutely annihilate CLB.

As for the videos - at this point - who cares. None of them show how it started, and I dont think we've even seen any with Jozy in the video. We see mid way to the end. Woopdeedoo. It's entertaining, and does show NYRB in an area they shouldnt be... but that isn't really helpful. Video would have to be footage we haven't seen yet, including (but not limited too) stadium security footage.

Blindside16
11-07-2017, 01:05 AM
It is is. The refs most of all are incredible. They were lucky they did not cause a riot with all the shit calls.

What about the VAR???????

Had we not advanced, I honestly believe there would have been a riot. I intentionally stayed off social media until a good 14 - 16 hours after the game in order to not seem like a lunatic.

Blindside16
11-07-2017, 01:08 AM
They let Jozy and Seba be hacked game after game. Jozy because he is bigger then anyone, defenders can do about anything they please, and Seba is routinely hacked and tripped and nothing. It has to get frustrating. AND despite all of this, despite the red card, they still had to call two goals back for them to win. THEN THEY SAY THAT WE ARE LUCKY TO GET THROUGH!!!!!!!!!! What bull shit.


According to that asshole Marsch post game, Seba was doing all the hacking out there. I'm not sure what he was watching but the Redshits should have been down to 9 men or less.

Blindside16
11-07-2017, 01:09 AM
Can we have a "get the @#$%" out of here! - Greg Vanney" tifo for when Red Bulls come to BMO next season?

THIS!! I would also like to get that audio as a text alert

Blindside16
11-07-2017, 01:13 AM
It's probably best to take our lumps and have Jozy serve the suspension for the first game. Best case scenario is the wipe out the yellow/red (whatever was issued in the hall), which would still leave him at 1 yellow for the game in CLB. Could the refs be itching for the first opportunity to give him another so he misses the game in Toronto? That's not something we would want to see.

We can squeeze out some positives in CLB, and even if it is a loss, Jozy and Seba will come back to the home game raging to score 10 goals each, and with our support we could absolutely annihilate CLB.

As for the videos - at this point - who cares. None of them show how it started, and I dont think we've even seen any with Jozy in the video. We see mid way to the end. Woopdeedoo. It's entertaining, and does show NYRB in an area they shouldnt be... but that isn't really helpful. Video would have to be footage we haven't seen yet, including (but not limited too) stadium security footage.


According to multiple sources that I have seen (TSN, Sportsnet, City tv) they sent security footage as well as eye witness testimony from security staff and police to MLS. We will see what happens but knowing this league we will end up disappointed.

razor787
11-07-2017, 02:09 AM
According to multiple sources that I have seen (TSN, Sportsnet, City tv) they sent security footage as well as eye witness testimony from security staff and police to MLS. We will see what happens but knowing this league we will end up disappointed.

It's interesting if they have police witnesses. Anyone from the club will be thrown out because of bias I'm sure. But a police statement cannot be ignored.

I'm curious about what the police are able to do in situations like these. You have possible assault charges, and a criminal trespass could be argued as well since it is an area of the stadium they aren't allowed to be.

I am not saying charges should be filled, but it creates an interesting "what if" had the police decided to step in.

OgtheDim
11-07-2017, 06:15 AM
2007 - Chile

2017 - NYRB

denime
11-07-2017, 06:47 AM
ESPN's match report indicates they were straight reds, not second cautions.

That means now it's up to the Independent Review Panel, consisting of one representative each from the U.S. Soccer Federation, Canadian Soccer Association and Professional Referee Organization to rescind his red card.

Globetrotter
11-07-2017, 08:40 AM
2007 - Chile


That was a sad night. I felt pretty bad for them. The ref was pretty harsh on their side, and being teens, reactions to the situation (on field) weren't too surprising. Bummer it carried on outside of the field, but also not too much of a surprise.

fergiejr
11-07-2017, 08:57 AM
It's interesting if they have police witnesses. Anyone from the club will be thrown out because of bias I'm sure. But a police statement cannot be ignored.

I'm curious about what the police are able to do in situations like these. You have possible assault charges, and a criminal trespass could be argued as well since it is an area of the stadium they aren't allowed to be.

I am not saying charges should be filled, but it creates an interesting "what if" had the police decided to step in.

You could see cops in the videos pulling RB players away from the fight - at one point one of the cops had his arms around Klejstan.

They can lay assault charges. The details escape me, but in a particular brutal NHL hit once when a team was playing the leafs a player was charged and had a warrant out for him the next time he came into Canada. It was at the time deemed a joke at the time "boys will be boys - let the refs sort it out" but in reality it was assault.

See this link for a few others.

http://toronto.citynews.ca/2016/02/09/some-notable-on-ice-incidents-that-led-to-criminal-charges/

fergiejr
11-07-2017, 08:59 AM
According to multiple sources that I have seen (TSN, Sportsnet, City tv) they sent security footage as well as eye witness testimony from security staff and police to MLS. We will see what happens but knowing this league we will end up disappointed.

I'm sure there is footage that was shot from the very beginning. There are loads of people in the tunnel club, and everyone films everything all the time now anyway. The cops probably collected all the footage they needed at the time to see if criminal charges would be required - which I doubt they will - but maybe MLS will also get their hands on this. What we see on social is the leftovers.

charlieocc
11-07-2017, 09:10 AM
Can we put Vanney screaming “WHY ARE YOU HERE?” on a tifo

Chevy
11-07-2017, 09:15 AM
Clearly it was NYRB game plan to unsettle us, and the fuckers carried it out with precision. And the pathetic MLS refs let it get out of hand early. But, even if there is conclusive evidence that Klejstan and NYRB instigated the tunnel incident, it's not likely going to affect Jozy's red if he reacted violently to it. Retaliation always gets punished. Otherwise, what's the argument to be made? ... that Klejstan was going to kill him? and Jozy threw him against a wall in total self-defence cause his life was in danger? Not likely. You could see Jozy was steaming. Personally, i think the best outcome is that Jozy's red gets downgraded to yellow, and he is out one game. I don't even want to think that he could be out for the rest of the playoff run with a red for violent conduct.

Credit where credit is due, they had a game plan and it worked out (almost) perfectly for them. Act like thugs and hope the referee doesn't call the game closely. Look to get lucky with a bad bounce or two in the crappy weather. They got everything they wanted except for that second bad bounce.

Chevy
11-07-2017, 09:16 AM
Can we put Vanney screaming “WHY ARE YOU HERE?” on a tifo

I love this.

Red4ever
11-07-2017, 09:17 AM
Can we put Vanney screaming “WHY ARE YOU HERE?” on a tifo

Motion presented.

Seconded?

I love this.Seconded.

All in favour?
I

All opposed.
*crickets*

Motion carried. Vanney screaming “WHY ARE YOU HERE?” will be placed on a tifo.

Joe Kool
11-07-2017, 09:33 AM
My worry is the possible retaliation by Jozy to being grabbed by Sacha in the hallway. Sacha may have initiated it but if Jozy's reaction appears more violent because he is a bigger guy then the footage could actually go against us instead of for us. Just depends on what actually happened. You can defend yourself to a point but if it turns into an assault after the initial defending then it is no longer just self defense. Would be good if there was footage of what Hagglund saw though because that would go a long way. Had to be at least one fan filming them coming into the hallway that caught it. I think we will be without Seba and Jozy for the next game for sure. If anything I can only see them making this worse for us somehow. TFC choking seems to be the big drama story that lots of people want right now.

As far as the next game goes, we have our whole midfield and defense intact so defensively we should be just fine as long as we get a decent ref calling the game with no favoritism. If Vazquez and Ricketts can combine at least once to grab an away goal then great. I think we will be ok. Would be great to have Jozy and Seba there but if not I am not too worried. Ricketts will not go the whole 90 though. He hasn't played for awhile.

C.Ronaldo
11-07-2017, 10:10 AM
one last thing I need to add.....Jozy probably shouldn't have bear hugged Adams, but my GOD.....you know that kid shat his pants in that moment. Nice life lesson for the youngster

https://www.thestar.com/content/dam/thestar/sports/tfc/2017/11/05/toronto-fc-advances-to-mls-eastern-final-after-testy-showdown/tfc_altidore.jpg.size.custom.crop.1086x671.jpg

C.Ronaldo
11-07-2017, 10:21 AM
Motion presented.

Seconded?
Seconded.

All in favour?
I

All opposed.
*crickets*

Motion carried. Vanney screaming “WHY ARE YOU HERE?” will be place on a tifo.

WAIT..............I just wanna say ........I love you. carry on


ps. that deserves a Tshirt aswell.

Canary10
11-07-2017, 10:43 AM
I highly, highly doubt the red card is rescinded. But I hope it leads to some appropriate punishment of NYRB players and their coach.

Oldtimer
11-07-2017, 12:39 PM
Vanney speaks:

http://www.sportsnet.ca/soccer/greg-vanney-toronto-fc-mls-major-league-soccer-new-york-playoffs/sn-amp/

Canary10
11-07-2017, 01:03 PM
Vanney speaks:

http://www.sportsnet.ca/soccer/greg-vanney-toronto-fc-mls-major-league-soccer-new-york-playoffs/sn-amp/

That was good. Get the impression he doesn't have a lot of respect for Marsch.

ouderwien
11-07-2017, 01:03 PM
Vanney speaks:

http://www.sportsnet.ca/soccer/greg-vanney-toronto-fc-mls-major-league-soccer-new-york-playoffs/sn-amp/

Ugh. Bob sucks.

razor787
11-07-2017, 03:27 PM
You could see cops in the videos pulling RB players away from the fight - at one point one of the cops had his arms around Klejstan.

They can lay assault charges. The details escape me, but in a particular brutal NHL hit once when a team was playing the leafs a player was charged and had a warrant out for him the next time he came into Canada. It was at the time deemed a joke at the time "boys will be boys - let the refs sort it out" but in reality it was assault.

See this link for a few others.

http://toronto.citynews.ca/2016/02/09/some-notable-on-ice-incidents-that-led-to-criminal-charges/


I'm sure there is footage that was shot from the very beginning. There are loads of people in the tunnel club, and everyone films everything all the time now anyway. The cops probably collected all the footage they needed at the time to see if criminal charges would be required - which I doubt they will - but maybe MLS will also get their hands on this. What we see on social is the leftovers.

Another question that would get raised though, is what would happen at the border? Lets say Sacha gets charged with assault in Canada. How will this affect him on future trips here for games? I know there are many crimes which make you inadmissable to Canada. I do not know if assault (even though its on an American :P )would be enough to disallow him from entering the country again.

Red CB Toronto
11-07-2017, 04:21 PM
Another question that would get raised though, is what would happen at the border? Lets say Sacha gets charged with assault in Canada. How will this affect him on future trips here for games? I know there are many crimes which make you inadmissable to Canada. I do not know if assault (even though its on an American :P )would be enough to disallow him from entering the country again.

I can tell you right now Toronto and especially the Crown are going to go nowhere near this in terms of charges. That area of the stadium and for the most part have HD quality security cameras, the FO has the footage they need.

razor787
11-07-2017, 04:31 PM
I can tell you right now Toronto and especially the Crown are going to go nowhere near this in terms of charges. That area of the stadium and for the most part have HD quality security cameras, the FO has the footage they need.

I agree. I don't see any charges happening. I just mean that it brings up an interesting "what if" scenario. I can't think of a situation where an American has committed a criminal offense during a game. I have no idea what repurcussions an event like this would have.

I read somewhere that Sacha and whoever was with him had to 'push' past the police. I am sure if they wanted too, they would be able to lay some charges. I agree though that the police will want to stay out of this incident lol.

Canary10
11-07-2017, 05:26 PM
MLS really needs to send a strong message on this. This is so far beyond what is acceptable. Shouldn't just be player suspensions either although there should be. The club needs to be fined too.

Globetrotter
11-07-2017, 05:32 PM
Well, the Toronto sports news will quickly turn away from this topic and shine light on Roy Halladay's death today.

https://sports.yahoo.com/roy-halladay-killed-plane-crash-age-40-211714002.html

Red CB Toronto
11-07-2017, 05:39 PM
I agree. I don't see any charges happening. I just mean that it brings up an interesting "what if" scenario. I can't think of a situation where an American has committed a criminal offense during a game. I have no idea what repurcussions an event like this would have.

I read somewhere that Sacha and whoever was with him had to 'push' past the police. I am sure if they wanted too, they would be able to lay some charges. I agree though that the police will want to stay out of this incident lol.

The problem is differentiating between the physical nature of what had been going on in the match and criminal conduct that occurs outside the context of the game. With the red cards being issued the ref determined what had gone on was in the context of the game.

The real question here is what exactly did the ref/officials see? That is what has to be answered for this to proceed.

Red CB Toronto
11-07-2017, 05:41 PM
Well, the Toronto sports news will quickly turn away from this topic and shine light on Roy Halladay's death today.

https://sports.yahoo.com/roy-halladay-killed-plane-crash-age-40-211714002.html

As it should in every way. It truely reminds you how little/insignificant the events from Sunday truly are in the overall scheme of things.

Redcoe15
11-07-2017, 07:27 PM
As it should in every way. It truely reminds you how little/insignificant the events from Sunday truly are in the overall scheme of things.

Yup.

Dunkers
11-07-2017, 08:15 PM
These rules on appeal are pretty crazy, especially this part

If an appeal is deemed frivolous by the Ruling Body that reviewed the case, then the bond will be forfeited and the Club will further lose the right to appeal any other decisions in that League Season and the next one. Further, the send-off punishment of the player or coach/staff member will be doubled (i.e., an automatic suspension of two (2) games).
https://www.mlssoccer.com/league/official-rules/send-off-review-procedure

I really don't see this getting overturned but could you imagine if it got doubled!! Crazy MLS.

redcard
11-07-2017, 08:52 PM
I don't think the FO would pursue this matter if the security video and eyewitness accounts did not vindicate their player. We are talking about MLSE here. I am positive the red card will be rescinded.

Sacha is practically in the TFC change room. There is no way he made a wrong turn.

My hope is that the Red Bulls get a team punishment for this, I would say they play some of their home matches next season in an empty stadium but that already seems to be the case. So it should be a significant monetary punishment.

Lets see what happens.

spe18
11-07-2017, 09:00 PM
Another question that would get raised though, is what would happen at the border? Lets say Sacha gets charged with assault in Canada. How will this affect him on future trips here for games? I know there are many crimes which make you inadmissable to Canada. I do not know if assault (even though its on an American :P )would be enough to disallow him from entering the country again.


I can tell you right now Toronto and especially the Crown are going to go nowhere near this in terms of charges. That area of the stadium and for the most part have HD quality security cameras, the FO has the footage they need.

I seem to recall a few years ago someone from the Boston Bruins almost getting charged for some sort of an on ice hit - during a game. Not sure whatever happened with that.

Red CB Toronto
11-07-2017, 11:43 PM
I seem to recall a few years ago someone from the Boston Bruins almost getting charged for some sort of an on ice hit - during a game. Not sure whatever happened with that.

Here is a list of the assault charges as of a result of an one ice incident, nothing ever amounted to much even with a conviction.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violence_in_ice_hockey#On-ice_incidents_resulting_in_charges

molenshtain
11-08-2017, 01:15 AM
It was Chara's hit on Pacioretty from like 5-6 years ago. Unbelievably thuggish Bruins team that was.

Blindside16
11-08-2017, 01:22 AM
I don't think the FO would pursue this matter if the security video and eyewitness accounts did not vindicate their player. We are talking about MLSE here. I am positive the red card will be rescinded.

Sacha is practically in the TFC change room. There is no way he made a wrong turn.

My hope is that the Red Bulls get a team punishment for this, I would say they play some of their home matches next season in an empty stadium but that already seems to be the case. So it should be a significant monetary punishment.

Lets see what happens.

The Redbulls already play in front of an empty stadium so that's not much of a sanction. I'm thinking heavy fines and loss of Superdraft picks. Plus a suspension to that asshole Marsch.

EDIT: Is it possible for a team to have a fine or levy imposed on the TAM? Does anyone know?

PizzaEatingYeti
11-08-2017, 02:08 AM
These rules on appeal are pretty crazy, especially this part

If an appeal is deemed frivolous by the Ruling Body that reviewed the case, then the bond will be forfeited and the Club will further lose the right to appeal any other decisions in that League Season and the next one. Further, the send-off punishment of the player or coach/staff member will be doubled (i.e., an automatic suspension of two (2) games).
https://www.mlssoccer.com/league/official-rules/send-off-review-procedure

I really don't see this getting overturned but could you imagine if it got doubled!! Crazy MLS.

What????
This is humongous bullshit!

Sorry guys, I'm a real die hard TFC fan since TFC was announced, born is Europe, played semi-pro footy, watched well over 100 live games there in a first division when the level of play was higher IMO than now in MLS, watched on TV tons and tons of Euro and international footy, spent 2 years of my life in Toronto, living in the US since 2002, and I need to say this:

If TFC would not exist I would never ever watch any football from USA, Canada, or even Mexico, nothing ever from the Concacaf region....
MLS is still scum, bush league, Mickey Mouse league, whatever you want to name it, and seriously, it may take still well over 10 years to became a serious league, because it has so many nonsense to it, that pages could have been written about.

Rant ended/ I know my post it's only marginally linking to the main subject in this thread...
Sorry I am angry and fuming.... but it's the truth above.
No way in hell that right now MLS in among the best 25 leagues of the world.

molenshtain
11-08-2017, 02:33 AM
Red tape aside for a second I think it's patently obvious MLS is top-down talent wise one of the 10 best leagues in the world. You have your top five in Europe, Brazil, Argentina, Mexico, the Championship probably. Other leagues have teams that are better than the best we have to offer but in terms of league wide individual talent it's a hard sell MLS is worse than any league not mentioned.

In regards to the red tape you find frustrating; MLS still nickles and dimes in certain spots for sure (PRO, minimum salaries). This is another one of the ways in which it does so. These are hold-over parts of the rule book that mandate certain things, stuff that even big leagues do, but can't go about in the same way because previous iterations of the league may have found it difficult to handle it. Basically, the league early on couldn't go around throwing fines at teams for doing stuff as simple as egregiously contesting reds like the Premier league does because the teams were too financially unstable. This is another way of deterring teams from doing so. This made sense at the time but maybe doesn't so much anymore.


Say what you will but there's a reason behind the madness. You'll find that all governing bodies in sport do dumb shit like this in one way or another. Look at the FA's Fit and Proper Test for owners if you want to see unnecessary and unreasonable governing at the highest level of the sport.

razor787
11-08-2017, 03:41 AM
These rules on appeal are pretty crazy, especially this part

If an appeal is deemed frivolous by the Ruling Body that reviewed the case, then the bond will be forfeited and the Club will further lose the right to appeal any other decisions in that League Season and the next one. Further, the send-off punishment of the player or coach/staff member will be doubled (i.e., an automatic suspension of two (2) games).
https://www.mlssoccer.com/league/official-rules/send-off-review-procedure

I really don't see this getting overturned but could you imagine if it got doubled!! Crazy MLS.

To me, this sounds as if it is more for cases when clearly the player deserved the punishment, but the team appeals as a joke, or to rub salt in the wound. For example, a player spits on another player, but the clubs appeals just saying "it's okay, because the guy is a jerk"

Our appeal will be based on evidence and a sound argument. Frivolous, by definition, is without serious purpose or value. That cannot be said about this situation.

Will the card be overturned... Who knows. But I am certain there won't be any extra suspension handed out over the appeal

ensco
11-08-2017, 07:20 AM
I think the odds of additional punishment, for both teams, is very high. More for the Red Bulls than us, but still, likely for us too.

If you think there is a constituency out there that feels sorry for us here over this, think again.

Go to big soccer, or listen to things like the MLS Extra Time podcast, you will discover that the reaction of a lot of neutrals to this is either that (i) both teams were jackasses, and it is amusing, or (ii) TFC had it coming to them, and good for the Red Bulls, someone finally took on these whining assholes.

We having a league wide rep for diving and whining, mostly thanks to Gio (we love him, but we know it's true) and now everyone hates Bradley and Altidore, too. The clips that everyone sees of this is the Jozy flop, of Gio losing his shit, of Bradley getting carded for whining... not the 2-3 years of getting chopped that led to all that.

Without absolutely compelling video evidence, that can be released, that Altidore was truly jumped, and that his retaliation was reasonable, the league will not rescind Altidore's red card.

I think it's likely that they add to the punishment by adding regular season suspensions or something. Both Marsch and Vanney may get suspensions to send a message about inability to control their teams. Marsch's should be longer, based on what we know.

Red CB Toronto
11-08-2017, 09:37 AM
I think the odds of additional punishment, for both teams, is very high. More for the Red Bulls than us, but still, likely for us too.

If you think there is a constituency out there that feels sorry for us here over this, think again.

Go to big soccer, or listen to things like the MLS Extra Time podcast, you will discover that the reaction of a lot of neutrals to this is either that (i) both teams were jackasses, and it is amusing, or (ii) TFC had it coming to them, and good for the Red Bulls, someone finally took on these whining assholes.

We having a league wide rep for diving and whining, mostly thanks to Gio (we love him, but we know it's true) and now everyone hates Bradley and Altidore, too. The clips that everyone sees of this is the Jozy flop, of Gio losing his shit, of Bradley getting carded for whining... not the 2-3 years of getting chopped that led to all that.

Without absolutely compelling video evidence, that can be released, that Altidore was truly jumped, and that his retaliation was reasonable, the league will not rescind Altidore's red card.

I think it's likely that they add to the punishment by adding regular season suspensions or something. Both Marsch and Vanney may get suspensions to send a message about inability to control their teams. Marsch's should be longer, based on what we know.

I kind of wonder how much the league will put into the fact the RedBulls were simply not where they should have been when the incident happened. In a very simplified way you view it as trespassing thus they are the ones who caused this?

Derko
11-08-2017, 09:49 AM
I kind of wonder how much the league will put into the fact the RedBulls were simply not where they should have been when the incident happened. In a very simplified way you view it as trespassing thus they are the ones who caused this?

I don't think the league will take that into consideration, I hope they do, but, nadah

Red4ever
11-08-2017, 09:55 AM
I think the odds of additional punishment, for both teams, is very high. More for the Red Bulls than us, but still, likely for us too.

If you think there is a constituency out there that feels sorry for us here over this, think again.

Go to big soccer, or listen to things like the MLS Extra Time podcast, you will discover that the reaction of a lot of neutrals to this is either that (i) both teams were jackasses, and it is amusing, or (ii) TFC had it coming to them, and good for the Red Bulls, someone finally took on these whining assholes.

We having a league wide rep for diving and whining, mostly thanks to Gio (we love him, but we know it's true) and now everyone hates Bradley and Altidore, too. The clips that everyone sees of this is the Jozy flop, of Gio losing his shit, of Bradley getting carded for whining... not the 2-3 years of getting chopped that led to all that.

Without absolutely compelling video evidence, that can be released, that Altidore was truly jumped, and that his retaliation was reasonable, the league will not rescind Altidore's red card.

I think it's likely that they add to the punishment by adding regular season suspensions or something. Both Marsch and Vanney may get suspensions to send a message about inability to control their teams. Marsch's should be longer, based on what we know.

The people who are happy we are getting comeuppance are just as biased as our drunkest, most ardent supporter. Pundits think we deserved it? Whooooooooooooooo cares?

We are actually allowed to whine. We are allowed to dive. We got punished accordingly for both. But anyone who implies we deserved to get jumped in the tunnel for whining or diving have lost the plot. Moreover, the league knows the officiating was poor if not bordering on incompetent. They know it's entirely their fault better measures aren't in place to prevent such incidents from happening and blaming Marsh and Vanney too harshly would essentially be passing the buck. They are also in a spot that it has to be a next year penalty as the punishments are unequal give both teams' playoff status.

This doesn't look good on the league either. But ultimately, they will want the appearance they made the correct call originally. (On an evening where they got little right)

Canary10
11-08-2017, 10:31 AM
These rules on appeal are pretty crazy, especially this part

If an appeal is deemed frivolous by the Ruling Body that reviewed the case, then the bond will be forfeited and the Club will further lose the right to appeal any other decisions in that League Season and the next one. Further, the send-off punishment of the player or coach/staff member will be doubled (i.e., an automatic suspension of two (2) games).
https://www.mlssoccer.com/league/official-rules/send-off-review-procedure

I really don't see this getting overturned but could you imagine if it got doubled!! Crazy MLS.

"Frivolous" is the key word here. There's no way this would be viewed as frivolous.

Canary10
11-08-2017, 10:36 AM
I think the odds of additional punishment, for both teams, is very high. More for the Red Bulls than us, but still, likely for us too.

If you think there is a constituency out there that feels sorry for us here over this, think again.

Go to big soccer, or listen to things like the MLS Extra Time podcast, you will discover that the reaction of a lot of neutrals to this is either that (i) both teams were jackasses, and it is amusing, or (ii) TFC had it coming to them, and good for the Red Bulls, someone finally took on these whining assholes.

We having a league wide rep for diving and whining, mostly thanks to Gio (we love him, but we know it's true) and now everyone hates Bradley and Altidore, too. The clips that everyone sees of this is the Jozy flop, of Gio losing his shit, of Bradley getting carded for whining... not the 2-3 years of getting chopped that led to all that.

Without absolutely compelling video evidence, that can be released, that Altidore was truly jumped, and that his retaliation was reasonable, the league will not rescind Altidore's red card.

I think it's likely that they add to the punishment by adding regular season suspensions or something. Both Marsch and Vanney may get suspensions to send a message about inability to control their teams. Marsch's should be longer, based on what we know.

I can't see anything additional given to Jozy unless the video evidence is damning, in which case we'd be pretty stupid to pursue this. But I agree. There probably will, and likely should be further sanctions against the players, coaches and the teams. MLS needs to deal with this strongly. I can't think of many cases of this happening and it never should.

Ajax TFC
11-08-2017, 11:28 AM
Two days so far since the appeal was filed. Should be enough time to decide whether or not a red card was warranted. They're probably taking their time to determine appropriate additional disciplinary measures

cmonyoureds
11-08-2017, 12:49 PM
Two days so far since the appeal was filed. Should be enough time to decide whether or not a red card was warranted. They're probably taking their time to determine appropriate additional disciplinary measures

Has MLS even gone so far as to indicate they are reviewing it?

Initial B
11-08-2017, 12:50 PM
Curious that MLS FO have been completely silent on this. Nary a peep. It's almost like they're hoping it will go away.

JonO
11-08-2017, 01:17 PM
Has MLS even gone so far as to indicate they are reviewing it?
I believe Kurt Larson reported that it will be reviewed by an independent panel.

denime
11-08-2017, 01:38 PM
ESPN's match report indicates they were straight reds, not second cautions.

That means now it's up to the Independent Review Panel, consisting of one representative each from the U.S. Soccer Federation, Canadian Soccer Association and Professional Referee Organization to rescind his red card.


I believe Kurt Larson reported that it will be reviewed by an independent panel.


ESPN few day ago

Oldtimer
11-08-2017, 07:05 PM
I believe Kurt Larson reported that it will be reviewed by an independent panel.

It's not MLS that reviews this case. It's a panel of one representative each of US Soccer, the CSA, and PRO (a retired ref). In order to rescind the card, unanimity is required. So if the PRO representative sticks by the refs, the red card stands. IMO the evidence must be compelling for TFC to even try an appeal.

After the decision, MLS could decide to further sanction one or both clubs. That is actually a separate thing from whether Jozy deserves a red card.

denime
11-08-2017, 07:33 PM
I'm not concern with Altidore's red as much Vazquez getting 3 games suspension for bumping the ref after that free kick.

MightyDM
11-08-2017, 08:59 PM
I have watched the whole game again, and replayed the questionable incidents, again and again. My first reaction was that the referee wasn’t quite as bad as I thought, but that isn’t quite right. In fact it is actually worse, in a way. He calls numerous picayune fouls early on ( some of which he appears to get wrong ie Mavinga in the 14 Th (?) minute ) but then lets some serious fouls go right after, always in favour of the Red Bulls. It became bizarre - for example when Jody was submarined by the guy at the top of the box. It might have been a slip, and therefore not a yellow, but taking someone out at the knees is clearly a foul - then thirty seconds later he is giving a foul for the slightest contact. Very odd, and easy to understand the players frustration and the feelings we had in the stands at the time, particularly when all the little calls that were incorrect were factored in, like the throw ins early on that went the wrong way, the corner on Gio’s shot that was given as a goal kick, etc.

and for me, it was a foul on Giovinco: a clear push. I cannot understand the commentators who say it was not a foul, it is blatant and obvious. And both of our goals were good. Both pretty clear, IMHO.

But. But. All our team had to do on the night was keep it’s head. And it didn’t. Bradley didn’t. Sebastian didn’t. And Jody apparently didn’t. This reflects badly on the club and the coaching staff. It’s not like we havent seen it coming, this behaviour has happened before. There needs to be some internal discussion about discipline and Vanney needs to lay down the law. And our best players have to show discipline and class. There were numerous calls that should have gone our way and did not. Could our reputation be hurting us?

Globetrotter
11-08-2017, 09:27 PM
Two days so far since the appeal was filed. Should be enough time to decide whether or not a red card was warranted. They're probably taking their time to determine appropriate additional disciplinary measures


Curious that MLS FO have been completely silent on this. Nary a peep. It's almost like they're hoping it will go away.

They have time. We're overly anxious. You're right, it's been 2 days... not 20... relax. It doesn't concern "us". We have jobs, families, etc. Walk away, they will decide when they do. We dont need to know yesterday, so to speak.

If it's November 19th and we still dont know... maybe someone should ask what's up. :chillpill::)

Canary10
11-08-2017, 10:31 PM
I have watched the whole game again, and replayed the questionable incidents, again and again. My first reaction was that the referee wasn’t quite as bad as I thought, but that isn’t quite right. In fact it is actually worse, in a way. He calls numerous picayune fouls early on ( some of which he appears to get wrong ie Mavinga in the 14 Th (?) minute ) but then lets some serious fouls go right after, always in favour of the Red Bulls. It became bizarre - for example when Jody was submarined by the guy at the top of the box. It might have been a slip, and therefore not a yellow, but taking someone out at the knees is clearly a foul - then thirty seconds later he is giving a foul for the slightest contact. Very odd, and easy to understand the players frustration and the feelings we had in the stands at the time, particularly when all the little calls that were incorrect were factored in, like the throw ins early on that went the wrong way, the corner on Gio’s shot that was given as a goal kick, etc.

and for me, it was a foul on Giovinco: a clear push. I cannot understand the commentators who say it was not a foul, it is blatant and obvious. And both of our goals were good. Both pretty clear, IMHO.

But. But. All our team had to do on the night was keep it’s head. And it didn’t. Bradley didn’t. Sebastian didn’t. And Jody apparently didn’t. This reflects badly on the club and the coaching staff. It’s not like we havent seen it coming, this behaviour has happened before. There needs to be some internal discussion about discipline and Vanney needs to lay down the law. And our best players have to show discipline and class. There were numerous calls that should have gone our way and did not. Could our reputation be hurting us?

That foul on Jozy was really bad. The ball rolled right on by, not even remotely touched. Should have been a free kick for Giovinco at the top of the box which might as well be a penalty when he takes it.

Blindside16
11-09-2017, 12:44 AM
After a couple days of reading and pondering there is a couple of things that stick out to me. The first is Kljestan's statement of "I was pushed into a wall. I have a clear conscience!" To me I take the first part at face value, I don't doubt that he was pushed into a wall in that mass chaos. The latter half of that statement intrigues me though. The more I think about it the more I think it is a tongue in cheek reference rather than a declaration of innocence. I take it as whatever he did prior to being pushed into the wall he feels no remorse for. Which to me at least, there must be some pretty damning video evidence. I wondering if we will ever see the security footage. Personally I think it will only get "leaked" if the appeal does not go in our favour. I am curious to see for myself whatever occurred.

TFC Tifoso
11-09-2017, 08:37 AM
I'm not concern with Altidore's red as much Vazquez getting 3 games suspension for bumping the ref after that free kick.

I wouldn't worry much about that.....happened right in front of me in 127, and didn't look like Vasquez made contact at all.
He got in his face alright, and they were about a hair's width apart, but the ref never even told him to back off.....it's like he knew he fucked up straight away.
I'll at least give the ref a bit of credit for that.....he understood his mistake in a heated moment/game, but he could've easily given a yellow.

Just watched the highlights again.....be bumps the ref's legs a bit, but nothing in it at all.....even at the game I was looking at a head or chest bump....that would've been trouble.
As soon as I seen him running over, I though "oh no...don't do it!"

MightyDM
11-09-2017, 10:00 AM
A couple of other things: I am not certain that the foul on Seba was a penalty, but there is no doubt that it is way more a penalty than the one called on drew moor. Not even close. That kind of inconsistency must be infuriating to the players. Perhaps the same official should referee both legs?

Also, having watched the game again, we completely controlled the entire thing. Absolutely dominant performance, except for the very poor lack of self discipline by the leaders on the team.

charlieocc
11-09-2017, 10:19 AM
Also, having watched the game again, we completely controlled the entire thing. Absolutely dominant performance, except for the very poor lack of self discipline by the leaders on the team.

Yeah I'm kind of inclined to agree, although maybe not to the extent of saying we controlled the entire thing. The narrative seems to be that TFC were terrible, but I really don't think so, we had a ton of great chances. Also, despite not scoring, I actually thought Seba looked better than he has in weeks. Especially near the end, he was dominant dribbling in tight spaces to keep possession and kill time.

fergiejr
11-09-2017, 11:50 AM
A couple of other things: I am not certain that the foul on Seba was a penalty, but there is no doubt that it is way more a penalty than the one called on drew moor. Not even close. That kind of inconsistency must be infuriating to the players. Perhaps the same official should referee both legs?


This is an interesting thought. The takeaway is that the Ref would know the crap pulled by a player in the first leg and be watching for it. I am sure they watch the previous games to prep for a game, but this is a case of in-game experience that would carry over to game 2.

Although on the other hand, you run the risk of having a shitty ref for both legs.

Something worth pondering though for sure.

MightyDM
11-09-2017, 12:45 PM
What gave me the thought is that the Seba foul would have had to be a penalty with the same referee given what happened in NY. But yes, there is risk....

C.Ronaldo
11-09-2017, 01:06 PM
Yeah I'm kind of inclined to agree, although maybe not to the extent of saying we controlled the entire thing. The narrative seems to be that TFC were terrible, but I really don't think so, we had a ton of great chances. Also, despite not scoring, I actually thought Seba looked better than he has in weeks. Especially near the end, he was dominant dribbling in tight spaces to keep possession and kill time.

agreed
him and osorio put on a time killing clinic

pdogg
11-09-2017, 01:16 PM
This is an interesting thought. The takeaway is that the Ref would know the crap pulled by a player in the first leg and be watching for it. I am sure they watch the previous games to prep for a game, but this is a case of in-game experience that would carry over to game 2.

Although on the other hand, you run the risk of having a shitty ref for both legs.

Something worth pondering though for sure.

Have the fourth official and the ref swap between the two legs. They'd compliment each other quite well with their differing viewpoints in game 2.

marquis
11-09-2017, 09:54 PM
http://www.sportsnet.ca/soccer/toronto-fcs-altidore-clear-conscious-tunnel-melee/sn-amp/

Based on what Jozy says here, it seems that there really is footage showing Kljestan trying to grab him from behind. I'm starting to believe there might be a chance that Jozy gets cleared.

Canary10
11-10-2017, 03:54 PM
Apparently the Red Bulls also appealed Klejstan's red card. What was that language about frivolous appeals again?

ensco
11-10-2017, 05:07 PM
Apparently the Red Bulls also appealed Klejstan's red card. What was that language about frivolous appeals again?

They know what's on that video

My guess: the treatment of Klejstan is the least of their worries.

If you think there is a chance of massive fines and multiple suspensions, then the best defense is a good offence. You want an opportunity to frame your side of the story, and I do mean “frame”. (I have little doubt that NYRB will be claiming injustices that allegedly occurred off camera)

ensco
11-14-2017, 08:07 AM
Put you prediction here. Mine:

TFC - Altidore- red stays on (or is changed to yellow, so he stays out of game 1), plus one game suspension next year. Vanney suspended one game next year

NYRB - two additional games for Klejstan, so he misses first three next year, two game suspension for Marsch

TheGoodson
11-14-2017, 09:56 AM
Nothing changes with regard to the suspensions... Maybe Sacha gets an extra game if he truly started it or if another NYRB player instigated it they get a game or two

NYRB fined $100k for their stupidity in trying to start something in an area they should have never been in... Marsch gets 1 or 2 games next year due his team instigating this situation
TFC fined $100K for not providing adequate security.

Captain
11-14-2017, 10:39 AM
My prediction:
Red cards for Sacha and Jozy stand - Jozy did push back (but he was never going to just stand there and take it).

Sacha gets an extra game and a fine for instigating. NYRB get a fine for finding themselves in our hallway and Marsch gets a fine for not controlling his team. all fines un-disclosed

Vanney gets a banner quoting "What are you doing here?"

Canary10
11-14-2017, 10:43 AM
Put you prediction here. Mine:

TFC - Altidore- red stays on (or is changed to yellow, so he stays out of game 1), plus one game suspension next year. Vanney suspended one game next year

NYRB - two additional games for Klejstan, so he misses first three next year, two game suspension for Marsch

This is fun. Good idea to post it!

Derko
11-14-2017, 10:51 AM
TFC- Reduced to 2nd yellow card Jozy misses game 1

NYRB- 2 games for the Pornstar and he can no longer film with Seka

Canary10
11-14-2017, 11:29 AM
My guess is the reds stay, Red Bulls are fined like $100,000.

Derko
11-14-2017, 11:41 AM
I have been re-watching all of the volatile incidents over that last game and the Red Bulls really were just a bunch of thugs. TFC just has to play smart away at Columbus and finish the job in style at BMO.

GerMc
11-14-2017, 11:50 AM
I predict no change. I think the whole incident was embarrassing for the league, given what happened on the field and the referee response. Even though it is an independent panel, I suspect they will believe that big changes to the original decision will expose them to charges of incompetence and just cause a rehash of the whole thing again. I suspect they will take the easy way out. And keep in mind that decisions need to be unanimous, so it only take one person on the panel to stonewall and we are left with what we started with.

C.Ronaldo
11-14-2017, 12:15 PM
Cards remain, but Altidore gets to shave off Sachas stupid ass mustache as reconciliation

GerMc
11-14-2017, 12:21 PM
Cards remain, but Altidore gets to shave off Sachas stupid ass mustache as reconciliation

Wait, are you a Red Bulls fan? Cause that would be good for Sacha and make him look a lot better...:smilewinkgrin:

ag futbol
11-14-2017, 12:36 PM
I’d hold off on the supposed neutrality of this panel. It’s as if my boss at work also lives in my basement and “independently” supervises me in the workplace.

MLS likes to blame PRO for all the world’s problems but they are enough ties between the two where they’re heavily related.

Canary10
11-14-2017, 02:22 PM
Apparently the decision is coming tomorrow. Get those predictions in!

Initial B
11-14-2017, 06:01 PM
I say Jozy still suspended for next game. Because TFC and NYRB are high rollers on the salary front and they want to send a message, I bet they get fined $500K to NYRB and $250K to TFC.

Oldtimer
11-14-2017, 06:04 PM
I say both suspensions lifted but both clubs fined by the separate discipline committee.

JoeM
11-14-2017, 06:28 PM
I'm of the opinion that the league is embarrassed by the whole situation and think it'll look worse on them if they rescind anything. I'm sure they're hearing the "won't be suspended because it's playoffs" and "star players get special treatment" complaints and might look to make a statement. I won't be shocked in the slightest and actually expect the straight red remains for violent conduct and Jozy is given 3 games. This way if he isn't suspended for 3, it will be a pleasant surprise. Expect the worst so that better news is especially delightful haha

Super
11-14-2017, 06:33 PM
I'm of the opinion that the league is embarrassed by the whole situation and think it'll look worse on them if they rescind anything. I'm sure they're hearing the "won't be suspended because it's playoffs" and "star players get special treatment" complaints and might look to make a statement. I won't be shocked in the slightest and actually expect the straight red remains for violent conduct and Jozy is given 3 games. This way if he isn't suspended for 3, it will be a pleasant surprise. Expect the worst so that better news is especially delightful haha

The way I see it: if you're not 100% sure about your decision then you should always fall on the side of what is best for the teams - during the play-offs at least. Otherwise it's just amateur hour.

Globetrotter
11-14-2017, 06:44 PM
I would think they're not going to go MLB route of suspending next year, though they might use that precedent to justify their decision.

charlieocc
11-14-2017, 07:32 PM
If I was a betting man, I'd say nothing changes. No cards rescinded, no fines. This is MLS, they're just going to back whatever PRO did.

OgtheDim
11-14-2017, 08:49 PM
I found it interesting TFC has been practising assuming Jozy is around for the first match. They seem pretty damn confident of that security video.

dupont
11-14-2017, 10:21 PM
I feel like they won't change anything. Maybe add additional team punishment but not take back any cards

Richard
11-14-2017, 10:49 PM
I found it interesting TFC has been practising assuming Jozy is around for the first match. They seem pretty damn confident of that security video.

Well yeah of course, we're going to the final regardless so better keep him sharp!

Blindside16
11-15-2017, 02:45 AM
My guess is Altidore gets reduced to yellow (misses leg 1), Pornstash gets an additional game. Vanney gets fined, Marcsh gets 1 game plus a fine and NYRB gets a fine. All undisclosed amounts

James17930
11-15-2017, 03:31 AM
This seems the most likely.

TheGoodson
11-15-2017, 11:34 AM
The longer it takes, the more I think they will keep everything as is and just issues fines to everyone involved..

The league probably realizes that if they do anything to help TFC and Jozy, all MLS fans will think It is a conspiracy against Columbus. Especially now that Columbus maybe moving and all of the sketchy info coming out about the sale to Precourt and the out clause and how overall the owner being a dick to their fans.

Oldtimer
11-15-2017, 12:22 PM
It's not the league that's deciding the red card. The appeal panel is comprised of US Soccer, the CSA, and a representative from PRO. The league is not represented.

The league could decide their own additional sanctions on the club(s) and coach(es) AFTER the panel rules. It is something different from the panel appeal process.

ensco
11-15-2017, 12:27 PM
It's not the league that's deciding the red card. The appeal panel is comprised of US Soccer, the CSA, and a representative from PRO. The league is not represented.

The league could decide their own additional sanctions on the club(s) and coach(es) AFTER the panel rules. It is something different from the panel appeal process.

I suspect this is the holdup.

A decision like this would involve the Don.

Tunnelred
11-15-2017, 12:52 PM
https://twitter.com/johnmolinaro/status/930854821204189186

Suspension upheld.

Tunnelred
11-15-2017, 12:55 PM
https://www.torontofc.ca/post/2017/11/15/independent-panel-makes-final-ruling-jozy-altidore-suspension

The last line in this makes me slightly worried. MLS disciplinary committee will be looking in to the incident further later this week.

I hope there’s no basis for further suspension...

whositwhatnow
11-15-2017, 12:55 PM
gaps in the video....

JoeM
11-15-2017, 12:57 PM
https://www.torontofc.ca/post/2017/11/15/independent-panel-makes-final-ruling-jozy-altidore-suspension

The last line in this makes me slightly worried. MLS disciplinary committee will be looking in to the incident further later this week.

I hope there’s no basis for further suspension...

Yeah, that's what worries me too. The initial ruling was "violent conduct", was it not? A violent conduct red is almost always 3 games. Hope that isn't the case.

Super
11-15-2017, 01:07 PM
https://twitter.com/johnmolinaro/status/930854821204189186

Suspension upheld.

Ah well, it sucks, but we proved we can own Columbus without our DPs, so let's get it done.

TFC Tifoso
11-15-2017, 01:14 PM
so do we know if its 1 game or 3? or not known yet?

JoeM
11-15-2017, 01:15 PM
not known yet. Definitely leg 1, sounds like it's being further reviewed which implies they're investigating if it warrants a longer suspension.

Worth noting - the article says they couldn't find anything to overturn the original ruling. Meaning it is still a straight red and still for violent conduct. Which isn't great.

Tunnelred
11-15-2017, 01:16 PM
so do we know if its 1 game or 3? or not known yet?

For now, it’s just one game, though there is a concern it could be raised to 3 after DisCo review it. As mentioned in an above post, Violent conduct is usually a 3 game suspension. If that is what Jozy got the red for, there’s every chance it could be upped.

Ben - D.O.W.
11-15-2017, 01:25 PM
#releasethetape

(mostly because I'm super curious what their case was)

razor787
11-15-2017, 01:36 PM
Why would they send a video with 'gaps'. It makes me think that Altidore probably did shove him first, and they edited it out...

JoeM
11-15-2017, 01:41 PM
Why would they send a video with 'gaps'. It makes me think that Altidore probably did shove him first, and they edited it out...


I don't think the gaps they're referring to are from one, constant stream. I think they probably have a few different security camera angles along with some of the cellphone footage taken in the tunnel and even by combining all the angles they're unable to get a clear view of the incident from start to finish. Maybe the security cameras don't catch things that may have started in the mouth of the tunnel so they can't piece it all together.

C.Ronaldo
11-15-2017, 02:40 PM
typical MLS crap

flambe
11-15-2017, 03:33 PM
so, if it's upped to violent conduct and the resulting 3 games, Jozy is done for this season, no?

Tunnelred
11-15-2017, 03:43 PM
so, if it's upped to violent conduct and the resulting 3 games, Jozy is done for this season, no?

Unless MLS do what MLB did in the World Series, and apply the suspension for the start of next season (which I can’t see happening), yeah, he will be done for the year.

Joe Kool
11-15-2017, 03:52 PM
What a crappy twist to the end of a great season. Guess it will be even more of a story if we pull off winning MLS Cup without Jozy in the last 3 games. I believe in this team though. We can do it. Too bad that convincing video footage they talked about for the last week was not as solid as they thought....or was it. Someone is full of it...$25000 bond is gone I guess.

UpTheReds
11-15-2017, 06:07 PM
He only missed the first leg. The more worrying part for me is the last paragraph in the TFC statement that says the MLS Disciplinary Committee will looking at the incident further later in the week. Could more TFC players miss games?

JoeM
11-15-2017, 06:13 PM
He only missed the first leg. The more worrying part for me is the last paragraph in the TFC statement that says the MLS Disciplinary Committee will looking at the incident further later in the week. Could more TFC players miss games?

No, it's definitely that he could miss more games. Violent conduct is 3 games in almost every scenario - I actually can't remember the last time I saw someone get less than 3 for violent conduct. They've only said he misses first leg because it isn't completely settled yet. Jozy could very well be out the remainder of the season. Highly doubt they would retroactively give out cards for an incident like this.

JoeM
11-15-2017, 06:19 PM
No, it's definitely that he could miss more games. Violent conduct is 3 games in almost every scenario - I actually can't remember the last time I saw someone get less than 3 for violent conduct. They've only said he misses first leg because it isn't completely settled yet. Jozy could very well be out the remainder of the season. Highly doubt they would retroactively give out cards for an incident like this.

https://www.wakingthered.com/toronto-fc/2017/11/15/16656922/toronto-fc-news-striker-jozy-altidore-red-card-appeal-suspension

As the article mentions, he will miss at least one game. Now it's investigated to see if it warrants the usual 3 or less/more.

UpTheReds
11-15-2017, 06:38 PM
Well, seems likely then he’s done for the season

Redcoe15
11-15-2017, 06:40 PM
They're trying to fuck with our side.

It might work.

UpTheReds
11-15-2017, 07:13 PM
Come to think of it, Dempsey was sent off on decision day for a violent conduct red and he only missed the one game. Also sent off by Chris Penso ironically.

Redcoe15
11-15-2017, 07:25 PM
Except that Cunt Dempsey the Douchebag plays for one of the good guys. An American side, so he's very deserving of a pass in their eyes. Whereas Jozy (and Bradley) play for a Canadian side - one that can desecrate and shame American soccer by winning the MLS Cup in dominant fashion. So he must be punished to teach them a lesson not to dare touch their silverware for Canada.

And it just might work.

Why nothing about Jesse Marsch? Why aren't they punishing him for that deliberate act he did?

Tunnelred
11-15-2017, 07:33 PM
Why nothing about Jesse Marsch? Why aren't they punishing him for that deliberate act he did?

That will come to light when DisCo review at the end of the week. This past review was purely on if Jozy get his card rescinded or not.

ensco
11-15-2017, 08:09 PM
I don’t care what they do.
We will win MLS Cup.

backbeat
11-15-2017, 08:32 PM
I don’t care what they do.
We will win MLS Cup.

this^

i also think this may give them an added grit/edge/determination...

Oldtimer
11-15-2017, 10:47 PM
I don’t care what they do.
We will win MLS Cup.

If we get there.

We'll have an idea after the game in Columbus.

cmonyoureds
11-16-2017, 08:20 AM
This whole affair, including the appeal process, has done nothing to improve the impression of MLS on the world scene.
I would expect that this is the last game this season Mr. Penso will get after the debacle he presided over in Toronto........ sadly knowing MLS, he'll get the final.

The game in Columbus is gonna be interesting.
The return leg, should we have everyone back, will be even more interesting. How much "rust" will our big two have after an international break AND missing another week through card issues??

sidvan
11-16-2017, 08:25 AM
This whole affair, including the appeal process, has done nothing to improve the impression of MLS on the world scene.
I would expect that this is the last game this season Mr. Penso will get after the debacle he presided over in Toronto........ sadly knowing MLS, he'll get the final.

The game in Columbus is gonna be interesting.
The return leg, should we have everyone back, will be even more interesting. How much "rust" will our big two have after an international break AND missing another week through card issues??

Penso is scheduled to ref in West final

cmonyoureds
11-16-2017, 08:29 AM
Penso is scheduled to ref in West final

:facepalm:

Couchy81
11-16-2017, 09:37 AM
Penso is scheduled to ref in West final

What a joke. Come on MLS be better than this.

OgtheDim
11-16-2017, 10:10 AM
Penso is scheduled to ref in West final

I'm fine with that.....he is unlikely to be in the final game.

ag futbol
11-16-2017, 12:22 PM
What a joke. Come on MLS be better than this.
Is it just me or are the worst officials in MLS continually front-and-centre? The funny part is these assignments are typically a “reward” for good performance, so i’m to interpret that they think Penso is one of their better refs? At least it’s not Geiger.

I know people hate Toledo, but honestly for our style of play he’s on the end of the spectrum we need, someone who calls the game tight.

C.Ronaldo
11-16-2017, 01:20 PM
Is it just me or are the worst officials in MLS continually front-and-centre? The funny part is these assignments are typically a “reward” for good performance, so i’m to interpret that they think Penso is one of their better refs? At least it’s not Geiger.

I know people hate Toledo, but honestly for our style of play he’s on the end of the spectrum we need, someone who calls the game tight.

Toledo is consistent though, a cocky prck, but consistent.

Penso is all over the place, hes in over his head. HE missed out of bounds calls. Its was like watching self ref rec league

DinamoTFC
11-16-2017, 04:01 PM
Toledo is consistent though, a cocky prck, but consistent.

Penso is all over the place, hes in over his head. HE missed out of bounds calls. Its was like watching self ref rec league
Yet they reward him with another game. Unbelievable. They've done this before too with another ref I recall. It's like they do it on purpose.

ensco
11-16-2017, 05:06 PM
I think dwelling on this is a mistake. Our guys share some of the blame.

trane
11-16-2017, 05:31 PM
BMO field will be an ugly place if they suspend Jozy for more then one game. There will be anger in the stands.

OgtheDim
11-16-2017, 06:04 PM
BMO field will be an ugly place if they suspend Jozy for more then one game. There will be anger in the stands.

Only if we are losing.


And even then, CBus are not as easy a team to hate as NYRB. They play expansive football.

Auzzy
11-16-2017, 06:38 PM
Toledo is consistent though, a cocky prck, but consistent.

Penso is all over the place, hes in over his head. HE missed out of bounds calls. Its was like watching self ref rec league

There was an interesting article with quotes from Toledo a while ago. They have been trying to improve different aspects of officiating -- obviously still a long way to go. One thing most of the refs had to work on was fitness, and Toledo mentioned that. I used to hate him with a passion in TFC's early years. I honestly think he's gotten a bit better with better fitness. When you're out of shape, you can't keep up with the game and end up having bad viewing angles on everything. Plus when you're exhausted you make bad decisions. Still not a great ref; but better than in the past.

ensco
11-16-2017, 06:43 PM
I love Toledo's presence. I liked him even when everyone hated him.

Thomas
11-16-2017, 09:22 PM
It it is painful to some, but I am in agreement.


I think dwelling on this is a mistake. Our guys share some of the blame.

C.Ronaldo
11-17-2017, 09:14 AM
It it is painful to some, but I am in agreement.

i agree our guys added to the fire, but this situation needs to be used to highlight how bad the refs are in MLS.

I pay good money to watch good soccer, and Penso took that away. The red card aside, the rest of the game was not very entertaining when you spend 90 minutes losing your sht over botched calls.

We won and we are still mad, imagine if we had lost.

Penso is an injustice to the game

Section_105
11-17-2017, 01:40 PM
no extra punishment for Jozy,

https://twitter.com/JohnMolinaro/status/931588728740397056


https://twitter.com/JohnMolinaro/status/931588728740397056

https://twitter.com/JohnMolinaro/status/931588728740397056

paul-collins
11-17-2017, 02:07 PM
no extra punishment for Jozy,

https://twitter.com/JohnMolinaro/status/931588728740397056


https://twitter.com/JohnMolinaro/status/931588728740397056

https://twitter.com/JohnMolinaro/status/931588728740397056
https://www.torontofc.ca/post/2017/11/17/training-notes-november-17th-2017
confirmed

GerMc
11-17-2017, 02:19 PM
https://www.torontofc.ca/post/2017/11/17/training-notes-november-17th-2017
confirmed

So now it is closed from my perspective. I am happy that Jozy only got the one game (like Dempsey did for his violent conduct red) and I am confident that we can make a strong showing in Columbus on Tuesday (and I am going to be there singing and yelling my heart out to do what I can to help!). I don't want to tell people what to think or what to post about, but I think we should focus on Leg 1 with Columbus and put the Rumble in the Tunnel in to the rear view mirror.

C.Ronaldo
11-17-2017, 03:12 PM
https://www.torontofc.ca/post/2017/11/17/training-notes-november-17th-2017
confirmed


Like Dempsey...sooo...doesnt this say something about the ref? both if are for violent conduct should be 3 games Both were only 1 game because the ref was so sht



Okay, now focus, but after theses playoffs are done I want some changes to the reffing system

General Woolfe
11-17-2017, 05:53 PM
no extra punishment for Jozy,

https://twitter.com/JohnMolinaro/status/931588728740397056


https://twitter.com/JohnMolinaro/status/931588728740397056

https://twitter.com/JohnMolinaro/status/931588728740397056

Seems a bit strange to say this given we are missing him for a VITAL game, but that's good news we'll have both Jozy and Seba for the second leg and potentially the final.