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mowe
10-10-2017, 09:04 PM
Shocking result. Thought it deserved its own thread (mods feel free to disagree).

Positive for TFC: Bradley/Altidore don't miss games next summer.

On the other hand this has to be crushing, no idea how this will affect their play when they come back.

Fort York Redcoat
10-10-2017, 09:06 PM
Wow. This will rock the league. Russia would've loved a matchup with the US. FIFA will miss some viewers as well.

notthesun
10-10-2017, 09:07 PM
This is genuinely incredible, I really can't believe it. They had qualification so nearly wrapped up, and everything that could have gone wrong went wrong. Wow.

Prepare for tons and tons of Bradley/Altidore hating. Hell, maybe it's partly deserved, I don't watch their games that closely. As long as they keep being studs for us I don't care.

Richard
10-10-2017, 09:08 PM
:yikes:

Fort York Redcoat
10-10-2017, 09:08 PM
Look for many friendlies in the US next year.

mr k
10-10-2017, 09:15 PM
Bradley & Altidore were non-existent. As part of the leadership, they will be crucified along with Arena & Gulati. Only Dempsey was decent while winning goals by Panama & Honduras were by MLSers. Just heard Arena say the US is doing nothing wrong, we got MLS and audio gets cut off.

The so called Chosen One (Pulisic) betrayed his US soccer fan boys.

BelfastBoy
10-10-2017, 09:16 PM
So who is in from CONCACAF?

SoccMan2
10-10-2017, 09:16 PM
This is genuinely incredible, I really can't believe it. They had qualification so nearly wrapped up, and everything that could have gone wrong went wrong. Wow.

Prepare for tons and tons of Bradley/Altidore hating. Hell, maybe it's partly deserved, I don't watch their games that closely. As long as they keep being studs for us I don't care.
Nothing against you sir but if you want a strong and growing MLS this could be devastating for the popularity of the game in North America, if you like the fact that you see many MLS stadiums pretty full and the league growing then you need the US and eventually Canada in World Cups , it’s going to be an interesting next 4 years let’s hope this does not set soccers popularity back 30 years in North America.

mr k
10-10-2017, 09:17 PM
Mexico, CR & Panama. Honduras plays the Aussies in one of the inter-continental playoffs. Probably worst match up for the Aussies.

UpTheReds
10-10-2017, 09:20 PM
Couldn’t care less about the USA not qualifying. Up until Panama scores we were looking down the barrel of the USA playing Australia in a playoff the same day as the East Semi Final. MLS wasn’t trumping FIFA in that one.

SoccMan2
10-10-2017, 09:20 PM
Bradley & Altidore were non-existent. As part of the leadership, they will be crucified along with Arena & Gulati. Only Dempsey was decent while winning goals by Panama & Honduras were by MLSers. Just heard Arena say the US is doing nothing wrong, we got MLS and audio gets cut off.

The so called Chosen One (Pulisic) betrayed his US soccer fan boys.
Pulisic is 19 he has done well for the US since he made his full international debut please we in Canada can only wish we had a player of that age playing for Canada.

ensco
10-10-2017, 09:21 PM
I hate to say this but I don’t think it'll be easy for Bradley and Altidore to produce elite performances for TFC in the playoffs this year. They are pros, I know, but this is the kind of thing you never live down. It's an absolutely epic fail. Trinidad are terrible.

Neither of them are likely to start or even maybe make the 2022 team.

RealG-TFC
10-10-2017, 09:24 PM
Well I'm sure there will be an extra spring in Cooper's step in training. Congratulations to him and Panama.

TFC07
10-10-2017, 09:25 PM
Pulisic is 19 he has done well for the US since he made his full international debut please we in Canada can only wish we had a player of that age playing for Canada.
I guess you haven't heard Davies (16 year old) who won golden boot and best young player award in Gold Cup this year.

adam1001
10-10-2017, 09:26 PM
Speechless. Hate to say it, but the US did not deserve the spot after the recent string of performances. Have a feeling we might be seeing more of Tosaint in the next few weeks.

Shway
10-10-2017, 09:27 PM
Well fellaz, TFC will be even stronger next year with less call ups. I want the CCL

TFC07
10-10-2017, 09:27 PM
Nothing against you sir but if you want a strong and growing MLS this could be devastating for the popularity of the game in North America, if you like the fact that you see many MLS stadiums pretty full and the league growing then you need the US and eventually Canada in World Cups , it’s going to be an interesting next 4 years let’s hope this does not set soccers popularity back 30 years in North America.

Canada soccer POV: MLS is going to have a harder time to grow because new Canadian soccer league that's starting up next year. US result wouldn't affect Canadian soccer unless you are only talking about Canadian MLS clubs.

backbeat
10-10-2017, 09:29 PM
shocking results...

not at all good for MLS growth

I was really hoping for a strong USA showing and ultimate media coverage

with a boomerang effect on Canadian football interest as MLS prospers

it will still happen me thinks but worry that this might delay the process...

SoccMan2
10-10-2017, 09:29 PM
I guess you haven't heard Davies (16 year old) who won golden boot and best young player award in Gold Cup this year.
Oh I’ve heard of him but let’s see where he is at at 19.

OgtheDim
10-10-2017, 09:33 PM
Yeah, Bradley is not going to be captain & Jozy is going to be occasional bring in guy for the next 4 years. They will work in Bradley occasionally as well but the US has to hit reset on all its positions baring Pulisic (in no way was that his fault tonight).

Jozy & Bradley both played great against Panama but tonight - they were crap (although Bradley on an island without support in the midfield is really bad planning by Arena).

*****

This is bad for the league in some ways and in some ways useful. MLS has become the defacto place to go if you are from CONCACAF and not good enough for Europe or LigaMx. That is just going to get stronger.

BUT, the amount of people in the US who only follow soccer during a World Cup is huge. There is a whole generation of people who have never experienced a WC without their country in it - they are melting down on Twitter right now. And nobody knows how this will play out support wise. I doubt in the short term it affects MLS because people really support MLS because its local, not because of the USMNT.

In the long run, a strong USMNT is good for MLS, and thus good for TFC.

But, this was coming one day. And maybe, just maybe, US people will see soccer as not just "their" game but also something they can be part of without "their" team being in.

OgtheDim
10-10-2017, 09:36 PM
Canada soccer POV: MLS is going to have a harder time to grow because new Canadian soccer league that's starting up next year. US result wouldn't affect Canadian soccer unless you are only talking about Canadian MLS clubs.

CPL is not going to affect MLS #'s in Canada because there are not that many MLS #'s in Canada to begin with. BUT, the USMNT not being in affects US investment in the game, in the short tem, and that has a direct affect on Canadian MLS teams and an ancilliary long term affect on Canadian soccer.

In the long term, a mature understanding of what the WC is (i.e. a party that your team doesn't have to be in to enjoy) will make 2026 an even better spectacle.

Initial B
10-10-2017, 09:50 PM
I'm very alarmed right now. Not at the melting down of the US fans, but what this will mean for the future salary caps for MLS. They've been able to get better successive TV deals because World Cup games had MLS games tied into one package. the TV networks paid more because they knew the US would make it into every World Cup. They don't have that certainty anymore so you know they will lowball the next TV deal, which will affect the amount of TV money that MLS can put towards the salary cap. This could also affect viewership as the US fans now don't have US WC players to cheer on or watch. I'm going to be very interested in the MLS TV ratings next year.

notthesun
10-10-2017, 09:52 PM
From a TFC perspective my concern is whether Bradley and Altidore can shrug this off, or more likely how quickly they can. This is probably a career-defining loss for both of them, I don't know if their heads will be in the right place vs. Montreal. I guess we'll see.

As for long term MLS implications, I'm not sure. I think the league will be mostly fine. Growth will almost certainly slow down or stagnate but I kind of doubt you'll see ratings plummet or shit really hit the fan. MLS fans, especially in the U.S., are generally speaking the hardcore slice of soccer fans. They'll stick around.

Canary10
10-10-2017, 09:54 PM
I hate to say this but I don’t think it'll be easy for Bradley and Altidore to produce elite performances for TFC in the playoffs this year. They are pros, I know, but this is the kind of thing you never live down. It's an absolutely epic fail. Trinidad are terrible.

Neither of them are likely to start or even maybe make the 2022 team.

Yeah I agree. This is going to be tough for them.

reggie
10-10-2017, 10:01 PM
not worried about the tv money ,the US along with Canada and Mex are getting the 2026 WC.48 games that will be huge money.

Globetrotter
10-10-2017, 10:03 PM
International will wear off shortly. Let them sleep on it for a week and their minds will be focused on the playoffs.

Globetrotter
10-10-2017, 10:05 PM
not worried about the tv money ,the US along with Canada and Mex are getting the 2026 WC.48 games that will be huge money.

Yes - 2026 could be a re-awakening, a USA'94 v2.

OgtheDim
10-10-2017, 10:06 PM
Cooper to the World Cup.

Auzzy
10-10-2017, 10:09 PM
I'm very alarmed right now. Not at the melting down of the US fans, but what this will mean for the future salary caps for MLS. They've been able to get better successive TV deals because World Cup games had MLS games tied into one package. the TV networks paid more because they knew the US would make it into every World Cup. They don't have that certainty anymore so you know they will lowball the next TV deal, which will affect the amount of TV money that MLS can put towards the salary cap. This could also affect viewership as the US fans now don't have US WC players to cheer on or watch. I'm going to be very interested in the MLS TV ratings next year.

Very good point, if US missing the World Cup affects the SUM dollars significantly, that will have a big effect on MLS & a number of other things.

Also just a quick reminder, we shouldn't be complacent about this in Canada or feel any schadenfreude. Canada is a G7 nation, over 36 million population with huge numbers of grassroots soccer players, large immigrant population with a big interest in soccer, and many other thing going for it -- yet has only qualified for the WC once in '86. Iceland with less than 1% of that population, just qualified. I know there are lots of reasons & issues in Canada, but it really is shocking.

reggie
10-10-2017, 10:09 PM
i bet you MB will be at practice tomorrow morning,after that game the us may take is passport away.:facepalm:

Auzzy
10-10-2017, 10:10 PM
not worried about the tv money ,the US along with Canada and Mex are getting the 2026 WC.48 games that will be huge money.

Maybe Mexico should get 60 games in the 2026 WC; US & Canada only 10 each... LOL.

reggie
10-10-2017, 10:11 PM
Cooper to the World Cup.
time to sell him and make some bucks.

Red4ever
10-10-2017, 10:13 PM
From a TFC perspective my concern is whether Bradley and Altidore can shrug this off, or more likely how quickly they can. This is probably a career-defining loss for both of them, I don't know if their heads will be in the right place vs. Montreal. I guess we'll see.

As for long term MLS implications, I'm not sure. I think the league will be mostly fine. Growth will almost certainly slow down or stagnate but I kind of doubt you'll see ratings plummet or shit really hit the fan. MLS fans, especially in the U.S., are generally speaking the hardcore slice of soccer fans. They'll stick around.

This.

Detroit_TFC
10-10-2017, 10:13 PM
Any downturn in soccer interest in US will be revived by WC 2026, so long-term prospects aren't that big a concern. I am concerned about the immediate economic impact of this. Fox Sports (and other broadcasters) is getting absolutely rinsed in this situation, as advertisers scale back their buys, etc. Remains to see what the knock-on affects will be in terms of future rights bids, etc. Could affect SUM and we all know how that sweet SUM money is the special sauce that make MLS owner-investors happy.

I am skeptical of the redemptive value of not qualifying. Not sure there is enough political pressure to displace Sunil Gulati from USSF, and he sure as hell isn't going to step down from his FIFA perch. If nothing changes at USSF, nothing changes in the structure.

Worst thing probably is that everyone is going to have to hear US fans complain about this constantly for four years, or more.

edit: all the SUM money related to the Mexico MNT rights in the US certainly won't be affected by this, so the overall impact on SUM might be limited.

Red4ever
10-10-2017, 10:14 PM
Terrified we dont see Bradley and Jozy at their peak.

Just gutting for them.

Also Fuck Honduras.

Hamilton_Red
10-10-2017, 11:01 PM
Well Bradley and Altidore might be pretty happy to be hiding out in Canada for the next while! The Yanks will pretty bitter when they see Bradley holding up the MLS Cup for a foreign team...that is for sure.

Will see what kind of effect this has on them...my guess will be that it will be to try and show their individual integrity.

Redcoe15
10-11-2017, 12:52 AM
The soccer haters in America are going to be in glee over this.

TFC/Everton
10-11-2017, 01:03 AM
I feel like we lost tonight. Im not an american, but wow this hurts. Watching the interviews with Jozy and Michael you can see the pain in their eyes.

TFC bet it all on them. Now, people will blame MLS. No matter what they do for the rest of their careers, they will forever be a punchline in US soccer conversations.

Hope they know we love them, as sappy as that sounds.

PizzaEatingYeti
10-11-2017, 01:35 AM
I posted this in another thread, only to see this thread later:
---------------------------

Guys, the USMNT's "performance" is horrible news for the development of the league (MLS)...
The level of interest of the average people and more importantly of those in strong financial position (companies) to invest in anything related to MLS just has taken a huge shot in the nuts.

In fact this has set back the MLS with at least 4 years... but IMHO maybe with 6 years..
Be prepared that nobody else than a couple of tens of thousands of MLS die hard followers outside the 2 finalist team's fanbase will be watching on TV the MLS Cup final.
------------------------------

As many said here, I'm very worried that from now until December we won't see Jozy and the General in their peak form because of this.

Tdot_LFC
10-11-2017, 03:58 AM
All three (unlikely) results in group they needed to happen for this shocking finish to the qualifying campaign did happen. Amazing. As a neutral, great fun.

ensco
10-11-2017, 05:40 AM
“Iceland is the size of Corpus Christi, TX”
https://twitter.com/benmurphytv/status/917939358849753095

Also check out the winning “goal” by Panama. This is unreal
https://twitter.com/stevensandor/status/917932973810262016

OgtheDim
10-11-2017, 06:08 AM
Only 4 US players stayed around to speak to reporters: Gonzalez, Howard, Bradley & Altidore

denime
10-11-2017, 06:50 AM
I'm not surprised that USA is out and I don't feel sorry for of them.

Last WCQ cycle Mexico barely made it,this time US failed with ZERO Away wins in the Hex and only 1 away win during this whole cycle. I'm sorry but if you can't win one single away game in CONCACAF you don't deserve to go,and on top of that Tournament like CONCACRAP WCQ is setup the way that USA and Mexico qualify every time.
USMNT players are not good enough,only few play in Europe,core is from MLS,that tells me enough about strength of this USMNT.

I'm sure now Klinsman opened a nice bottle of wine after game was finished, he was trying to explain stubborn Americans that MLS is subzero league comparing to most of European leagues,and if you want to compete with the best,you need your players over there,it seems tome he was right.
Now change will come,CONCACRAP will change WCQ format,and USA will be back on track for 2022.


This actually good news for TFC, we won't miss any players for WC2018,full squad ,less chance for injuries,good chance to win supporters shield again,CCL is coming our way.

As far MLS goes,this will not have major impact on MLS. People following MLS are hard core soccer fans anyway.

ag futbol
10-11-2017, 07:05 AM
I hate to say this but I don’t think it'll be easy for Bradley and Altidore to produce elite performances for TFC in the playoffs this year. They are pros, I know, but this is the kind of thing you never live down. It's an absolutely epic fail. Trinidad are terrible.

Neither of them are likely to start or even maybe make the 2022 team.
On the contrary, maybe getting the love from their club team will make all the difference.

Perhaps they’ll retire from international soccer entirely only to viewed as communists by USMNT fans 😂

Edit: my gut feeling says the development of domestic talent is about to get a lot of attention.

ag futbol
10-11-2017, 07:16 AM
USMNT players are not good enough,only few play in Europe,core is from MLS,that tells me enough about strength of this USMNT.

I'm sure now Klinsman opened a nice bottle of wine after game was finished, he was trying to explain stubborn Americans that MLS is subzero league comparing to most of European leagues,and if you want to compete with the best,you need your players over there,it seems tome he was right.

And yet the other teams who did qualify also fielded a large number of MLS players.

i’d say if he continued JK was on a path to do nearly as much for the USMNT as he did for TFC.

Initial B
10-11-2017, 07:34 AM
Bradley specifically is getting crucified on a lot of the message boards. I think that a lot of people who blame Bradley and Altidore for the result need to look at how they're members of one of the best MLS teams of all time. Just maybe it's not the players fault, but the Coach and his system that are to blame?

Rene Kingsriver
10-11-2017, 07:58 AM
Yeah maybe it's not great for the MLS in general but as a Canadian it's hard to feel sorry for them. Teams don't make World Cups, hell even the winners aren't guaranteed anymore, it happens. Seven in a row is stuff the majority of countries can only dream of. In my opinion that USMNT starting eleven yesterday doesn't have the quality that justifies the expectation to walk into a World Cup.

Auzzy
10-11-2017, 08:02 AM
Also check out the winning “goal” by Panama. This is unreal
https://twitter.com/stevensandor/status/917932973810262016

It wasn't a goal, but should have been a PK.

TFC Tifoso
10-11-2017, 08:25 AM
I'm not surprised that USA is out and I don't feel sorry for of them.

Last WCQ cycle Mexico barely made it,this time US failed with ZERO Away wins in the Hex and only 1 away win during this whole cycle. I'm sorry but if you can't win one single away game in CONCACAF you don't deserve to go,and on top of that Tournament like CONCACRAP WCQ is setup the way that USA and Mexico qualify every time.
USMNT players are not good enough,only few play in Europe,core is from MLS,that tells me enough about strength of this USMNT.

I'm sure now Klinsman opened a nice bottle of wine after game was finished, he was trying to explain stubborn Americans that MLS is subzero league comparing to most of European leagues,and if you want to compete with the best,you need your players over there,it seems tome he was right.
Now change will come,CONCACRAP will change WCQ format,and USA will be back on track for 2022.


This actually good news for TFC, we won't miss any players for WC2018,full squad ,less chance for injuries,good chance to win supporters shield again,CCL is coming our way.

As far MLS goes,this will not have major impact on MLS. People following MLS are hard core soccer fans anyway.

and while I agree in theory with the bolded, this was not the issue in this case.

goals which knocked the US out from the other results were, ironically, scored by MLS players.

the issue here is/was not the US being unable to "compete with the best".....it was being unable to compete with the others in CONCACAF....that's a big problem, and I think that's where the anger should be at, not as a way of validating Klinsmann.

US players shouldn't have needed to play in Euro leagues to qualify out of this.....

Canary10
10-11-2017, 08:39 AM
Only 4 US players stayed around to speak to reporters: Gonzalez, Howard, Bradley & Altidore

That possibly says a lot about the constitution of the team and their commitment.

Glad two of the four play for us. Good on Omar too. He's going to own that own goal forever.

denime
10-11-2017, 08:42 AM
And yet the other teams who did qualify also fielded a large number of MLS players.

i’d say if he continued JK was on a path to do nearly as much for the USMNT as he did for TFC.

Only Costa Rica has so called large number of MLS players, 8 to be exact, rest of them 2 Mexico,4 Honduras and panama,US has 17.

I'm not saying firing JK was wrong move,all I'm saying is MLS is not good enough for developing player for world class competitions,and while USA has large number of young players playing in Europe,they decide to go back with USMNT/MLS recipe from 1994-2010 and failed,because game changed in last 20 years and seems tome they did not get that memo.



My only concern with this USMNT epic fail is that they will offer Vanney coaching job,I know I would if I was in USSF.

TFC Tifoso
10-11-2017, 09:34 AM
Only Costa Rica has so called large number of MLS players, 8 to be exact, rest of them 2 Mexico,4 Honduras and panama,US has 17.

I'm not saying firing JK was wrong move,all I'm saying is MLS is not good enough for developing player for world class competitions,and while USA has large number of young players playing in Europe,they decide to go back with USMNT/MLS recipe from 1994-2010 and failed,because game changed in last 20 years and seems tome they did not get that memo.



My only concern with this USMNT epic fail is that they will offer Vanney coaching job,I know I would if I was in USSF.

same here.....but I've only seen 1 article on ESPN writing about "what's next".....Tata Martino and Peter Vermes were the specific names mentioned in there.....nothing about Vanney....

OgtheDim
10-11-2017, 09:35 AM
....

I'm sure now Klinsman opened a nice bottle of wine after game was finished, he was trying to explain stubborn Americans that MLS is subzero league comparing to most of European leagues.....

Most of Europe?

Um, no.

That and a whole whack of teams making it to the WC are not filled with top league European based players

Fort York Redcoat
10-11-2017, 10:05 AM
Nothing against you sir but if you want a strong and growing MLS this could be devastating for the popularity of the game in North America, if you like the fact that you see many MLS stadiums pretty full and the league growing then you need the US and eventually Canada in World Cups , it’s going to be an interesting next 4 years let’s hope this does not set soccers popularity back 30 years in North America.


Oh I’ve heard of him but let’s see where he is at at 19.

Buck up, son.

So negative.

While I agree a poor outing for a US squad lead by MLSers is a kick in the yanks, Euro/SA snobs can point to the improvement in MLS being all about goal scoring strikers from abroad. Haters gonna hate no matter what.

30 years? Are you getting the vapours? My dear. We have a few more teams in this league if you didn't notice and I'm pretty confident TFC or a Canadian team winning MLS won't ruin it for everyone.

And really bud- shitting on a present accolade to look to future let downs in Canadian football is unnecessary. We get enough disappointment as it is.

:canada:

Kaz
10-11-2017, 10:47 AM
This is on Arena and US Soccer.

I'm happy that this happened in 2017 not 2009. It could have been a death blow for MLS. I think today it stands a bit on it's own.

I suspect though it is going to hurt Attendance next year. MLS is going to be blamed I'm sure. Eurosnobs will say this is what happens when US nationals are brought to MLS as DPs instead of leaving them in Europe. (And one would be hard pressed to argue that isn't possible. Not enough data in my mind to say for sure)

This was basically a worse case for the US.

Bradley and Altidore will either be dejected or pissed of to the point of playing like animals for the rest of the season. I'm hoping for the later but expecting the former.

On the plus side Iceland Qualified.

ensco
10-11-2017, 11:52 AM
Iceland isn't the right comparable (I have read all about that, but I still really don’t have any idea how Iceland are doing this!)

The US thought the fact that they beat Portugal in 2002 meant something. But in the end it was just a big upset, in a tournament especially full of upsets. That's when the problem started. They started thinking they were close.

The US probably shouldn't have been at seven straight WCs, when places like Poland, Turkey and Egypt have trouble making it, and Scotland, Hungary or China can't even get close.

The Concacaf path has always been a lower bar, and the USA has been the beneficiary. But a low bar means others can jump it too.

98% of elite US athletes play other sports. Until that underlying reality changes, nothing else will change.

Same for Canada, btw.

(The USMNT should have had LeBron James as their GK, just as an example. Imagine him spending a year learning that position, a la Jordan playing baseball. I am not kidding.)

Couchy81
10-11-2017, 12:07 PM
It's not all bad, they still have the World Series, right?

denime
10-11-2017, 12:10 PM
(http://www.espnfc.com/world-cup-qualifying-concacaf/64/video/3226709/twellman-theres-an-arrogance-in-us-soccer)
(http://www.espnfc.com/world-cup-qualifying-concacaf/64/video/3226709/twellman-theres-an-arrogance-in-us-soccer)WATCH: Twellman sounds off after U.S. exit (http://www.espnfc.com/world-cup-qualifying-concacaf/64/video/3226307/watch-twellman-sounds-off-after-us-exit)



Twellman: There's an arrogance in U.S. soccer



(http://www.espnfc.com/world-cup-qualifying-concacaf/64/video/3226709/twellman-theres-an-arrogance-in-us-soccer)Twellman: U.S. rewards mediocrity (http://www.espnfc.com/world-cup-qualifying-concacaf/64/video/3226744/twellman-us-rewards-mediocrity)


(http://www.espnfc.com/world-cup-qualifying-concacaf/64/video/3226709/twellman-theres-an-arrogance-in-us-soccer)



(http://www.espnfc.com/world-cup-qualifying-concacaf/64/video/3226709/twellman-theres-an-arrogance-in-us-soccer)
(http://www.espnfc.com/world-cup-qualifying-concacaf/64/video/3226709/twellman-theres-an-arrogance-in-us-soccer)

molenshtain
10-11-2017, 02:04 PM
I've never, ever seen a solid coach like Arena go completely fucking insane with his tactics. When I started watching it was basically a 4-1-nothing. every player outside of Bradley had no actual tactical instructions.

I'm also deeply worried Vanney takes the next USMT coaching post. Arena won't like 3 weeks After this.

Detroit_TFC
10-11-2017, 02:15 PM
I've never, ever seen a solid coach like Arena go completely fucking insane with his tactics. When I started watching it was basically a 4-1-nothing. every player outside of Bradley had no actual tactical instructions.

I'm also deeply worried Vanney takes the next USMT coaching post. Arena won't like 3 weeks After this.

I have to admit that I was happy BA got the job after JK but his last days at LAG should have been a cautionary note. Some said so, and that a panic signing wouldn't work. They were right.

ensco
10-11-2017, 02:17 PM
I think Vanney’s candidacy for being the next USMNT coach is actually a little cloudier now.

I think he was the lead horse to go in post WC 2018, but they’ll move earlier than that now, and Vanney’s special relationship with Bradley and Altidore doesn’t matter anymore.

There is of course a scenario where both Bez and Vanney go to the USMNT together right away, and give them total control. Seems unlikely though.

Canary10
10-11-2017, 02:36 PM
Iceland isn't the right comparable (I have read all about that, but I still really don’t have any idea how Iceland are doing this!)

The US thought the fact that they beat Portugal in 2002 meant something. But in the end it was just a big upset, in a tournament especially full of upsets. That's when the problem started. They started thinking they were close.

The US probably shouldn't have been at seven straight WCs, when places like Poland, Turkey and Egypt have trouble making it, and Scotland, Hungary or China can't even get close.

The Concacaf path has always been a lower bar, and the USA has been the beneficiary. But a low bar means others can jump it too.

98% of elite US athletes play other sports. Until that underlying reality changes, nothing else will change.

Same for Canada, btw.

(The USMNT should have had LeBron James as their GK, just as an example. Imagine him spending a year learning that position, a la Jordan playing baseball. I am not kidding.)

I keep hearing this argument about soccer not getting elite US athletes. If you're talking about people from the track world maybe. But the other team sports aren't going to supply many soccer players. NFL and NBA players aren't built for an endurance sport like soccer. I've seen the marathon and half marathon times of so-called elite athletes from the NFL. I've beaten them soundly over those distances. Soccer players are built more like endurance runners. I just don't buy this argument.

ensco
10-11-2017, 03:08 PM
I keep hearing this argument about soccer not getting elite US athletes. If you're talking about people from the track world maybe. But the other team sports aren't going to supply many soccer players. NFL and NBA players aren't built for an endurance sport like soccer. I've seen the marathon and half marathon times of so-called elite athletes from the NFL. I've beaten them soundly over those distances. Soccer players are built more like endurance runners. I just don't buy this argument.

I don't think it's many football players but I absolutely 100% think most basketball, baseball and hockey players could play soccer.

There are a lot of guys who are 6’3” in the NBA who could play soccer. Russell Westbrook would have been a devastating soccer player. Steve Nash.

denime
10-11-2017, 03:19 PM
I keep hearing this argument about soccer not getting elite US athletes. If you're talking about people from the track world maybe. But the other team sports aren't going to supply many soccer players. NFL and NBA players aren't built for an endurance sport like soccer. I've seen the marathon and half marathon times of so-called elite athletes from the NFL. I've beaten them soundly over those distances. Soccer players are built more like endurance runners. I just don't buy this argument.

Watch the video and you will see what Twellman's opinion is on this matter, around 3:50 and I agree with him 100%.

Twellman: There's an arrogance in U.S. soccer (http://www.espnfc.com/world-cup-qualifying-concacaf/64/video/3226709/twellman-theres-an-arrogance-in-us-soccer)

TFC Tifoso
10-11-2017, 03:31 PM
I think Vanney’s candidacy for being the next USMNT coach is actually a little cloudier now.

I think he was the lead horse to go in post WC 2018, but they’ll move earlier than that now, and Vanney’s special relationship with Bradley and Altidore doesn’t matter anymore.

There is of course a scenario where both Bez and Vanney go to the USMNT together right away, and give them total control. Seems unlikely though.

FWIW, only names I've seen mentioned so far were Tata Martino and Peter Vermes form ESPN, and Tab Ramos, Caleb Porter, and Martino again from CBS Sports.....

OgtheDim
10-11-2017, 04:04 PM
I can't see a manager who needs to be working with players everyday wanting an NT job - that's why older guys tend to take the job.

I think its Vanney for 2030.

That and if you look at the names mentionned by the US intelligentsia, its all US based coaches. The bias against anybody from outside the US is almost as strong as the bias against non English managers for England.

*****

As for Twellman & Lalas et al. - American exceptionalism runs deep in places most of us wouldn't think of - US Soccer needs a dose of watching and enjoying what they are not involved in.

ensco
10-11-2017, 05:07 PM
I wonder if Manning is a candidate for Gulati’s job. He should be

Hamilton_Red
10-11-2017, 11:49 PM
Iceland isn't the right comparable (I have read all about that, but I still really don’t have any idea how Iceland are doing this!)

The US thought the fact that they beat Portugal in 2002 meant something. But in the end it was just a big upset, in a tournament especially full of upsets. That's when the problem started. They started thinking they were close.

The US probably shouldn't have been at seven straight WCs, when places like Poland, Turkey and Egypt have trouble making it, and Scotland, Hungary or China can't even get close.

The Concacaf path has always been a lower bar, and the USA has been the beneficiary. But a low bar means others can jump it too.

98% of elite US athletes play other sports. Until that underlying reality changes, nothing else will change.

Same for Canada, btw.

(The USMNT should have had LeBron James as their GK, just as an example. Imagine him spending a year learning that position, a la Jordan playing baseball. I am not kidding.)

I'd put the US on about the same level as the English National team...around 10-15th in the World but with a huge market. One WC is hardly a calamity, heck England missed out in 1974, 1978, and 1994. If they want to compete then they just have to eliminate the salary cap in MLS & put a cap on imported players. It would draw far more elite American athletes. I played basketball for my high school along side Tim Flowers (Blackburn Rovers and England goalkeeper). He could play at the top level at any sport. You see a lot of kids in Ontario playing both hockey and soccer until they hit 16 and have to make a choice. Top male athletes follow the money.

molenshtain
10-12-2017, 12:15 AM
Top *rich* kids choose Hockey. us plebs tick to soccer because it costs significantly less. Even then though, if you're not scouted and picked up by Woodbridge, Ajax, Vaughan, Dixie, Sigma etc etc etc. by the time you're sixteen it's unlikely you'll get scouted by anyone. Even Colleges. It's a poor system, really.

BelfastBoy
10-12-2017, 07:10 AM
Iceland has qualified, I wonder if they know we have borrowed their signature chant?

ensco
10-12-2017, 07:28 AM
I'd put the US on about the same level as the English National team...around 10-15th in the World but with a huge market. One WC is hardly a calamity, heck England missed out in 1974, 1978, and 1994. If they want to compete then they just have to eliminate the salary cap in MLS & put a cap on imported players. It would draw far more elite American athletes. I played basketball for my high school along side Tim Flowers (Blackburn Rovers and England goalkeeper). He could play at the top level at any sport. You see a lot of kids in Ontario playing both hockey and soccer until they hit 16 and have to make a choice. Top male athletes follow the money.

There is no way the US is anywhere near England. That is the delusion that is the root of the US problem. They act like that's who they are, but they aren’t.

We had an interesting thread about where TFC rank in world soccer - consensus was that we are about 150th in the world. Ex Pulisic, who plays for Dortmund, a top 25-50 team, TFC is the best team that better US players feature for.

It's not close. England probably have 10-15 guys like Pulisic who feature for teams in the top 25-50 in the world.

molenshtain
10-12-2017, 07:49 AM
There is no way the US is anywhere near England. That is the delusion that is the root of the US problem. They act like that's who they are, but they aren’t.

We had an interesting thread about where TFC rank in world soccer - consensus was that we are about 150th in the world. Ex Pulisic, who plays for Dortmund, a top 25-50 team, TFC is the best team that better US players feature for.

It's not close. England probably have 10-15 guys like Pulisic who feature for teams in the top 25-50 in the world.

I think you're conflating being good or bad as opposed to underachieving or overachieving. England, player by player, are for sure better than the U.S. they're also significantly overrated by their press. I'm not sure they have even one attacking player as talented or promising as Pulisic is.

The U.S. tend to overachieve at tournaments while England significantly underachieve. Basically as simple as that.

Fort York Redcoat
10-12-2017, 07:56 AM
Iceland has qualified, I wonder if they know we have borrowed their signature chant?

Or if they know they weren't the first to use it.

cmonyoureds
10-12-2017, 08:02 AM
Top *rich* kids choose Hockey. us plebs tick to soccer because it costs significantly less. Even then though, if you're not scouted and picked up by Woodbridge, Ajax, Vaughan, Dixie, Sigma etc etc etc. by the time you're sixteen it's unlikely you'll get scouted by anyone. Even Colleges. It's a poor system, really.

Understatement of the decade.
Resources go where the money is, and that's hockey.
Soccer in Canada is a mess, and remains that way because not enough light is shining on the system nationally.

molenshtain
10-12-2017, 08:20 AM
Understatement of the decade.
Resources go where the money is, and that's hockey.
Soccer in Canada is a mess, and remains that way because not enough light is shining on the system nationally.

It's not just resources either. Tons of former pro players live in Toronto and it's an incredibly insular group. The boys club nature of high level youth hockey in this city is nuts. Way worse than it is in this city for soccer.

Hamilton_Red
10-12-2017, 09:58 AM
I think you're conflating being good or bad as opposed to underachieving or overachieving. England, player by player, are for sure better than the U.S. they're also significantly overrated by their press. I'm not sure they have even one attacking player as talented or promising as Pulisic is.

The U.S. tend to overachieve at tournaments while England significantly underachieve. Basically as simple as that.

The last time an English manager coached their team to winning the top level was Howard Wilkinson in 1992 before the Premiership was established. Most of the teams are owned by foreign Billionaires and more than half of the players are foreign. It is an international all-star league that happens to play in England. To look at the real level of English football you need to watch the Championship. MLS is building up and needs to crank up the money to compete. They shouldn't panic.

Kaz
10-12-2017, 11:01 AM
Iceland isn't the right comparable (I have read all about that, but I still really don’t have any idea how Iceland are doing this!)


Who is comparing? I just like Iceland. Island er gott

ensco
10-12-2017, 11:29 AM
I think you're conflating being good or bad as opposed to underachieving or overachieving. England, player by player, are for sure better than the U.S. they're also significantly overrated by their press. I'm not sure they have even one attacking player as talented or promising as Pulisic is.

The U.S. tend to overachieve at tournaments while England significantly underachieve. Basically as simple as that.

Disagree. England are performing in line. They just have a sense of entitlement and an overwrought media.

They have made it to the final 14 out of 16 times. There can't be more than 7 or 8 countries that have that good a record of qualifying.

They have made the quarter finals or better 8 times out of the 16. How many countries in world football have made the quarters 8 times? It's probably only Brazil, Germany, Italy, and maybe Argentina.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/England_at_the_FIFA_World_Cup

molenshtain
10-12-2017, 11:47 AM
Disagree. England are performing in line. They just have a sense of entitlement and an overwrought media.

They have made it to the final 14 out of 16 times. There can't be more than 7 or 8 countries that have that good a record of qualifying.

They have made the quarter finals or better 8 times out of the 16. How many countries in world football have made the quarters 8 times? It's probably only Brazil, Germany, Italy, and maybe Argentina.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/England_at_the_FIFA_World_Cup

I wouldn't necessarily argue with any of that. England have always been at least good enough to sit at the big boy's table. When the tournaments were smaller they were better too - I always think that Gazza teams the late 80's early 90's should have won something. As the tournaments have become easier to qualify for they've simultaneously become worse and worse.

My point was just that guys like John Stones or Raheem sterling aren't particularly great, certainly not Pulisic's level, but they're still better than everything else the Americans have to offer.

ensco
10-12-2017, 11:54 AM
If Bruce Arena had Harry Kane or Jamie Vardy, he would have started either over Pulisic.

molenshtain
10-12-2017, 11:58 AM
If Bruce Arena had Harry Kane or Jamie Vardy, he would have started either over Pulisic.

I'll give you Kane and Alli. Those two are generally world class players atm. Vardy I'm not sold on.

My larger point was that while the U.S. and England frequently perform similarly in the World cup it was for a different reason than them having similarly talented players, which someone up thread inferred.

Canary10
10-12-2017, 01:19 PM
Watch the video and you will see what Twellman's opinion is on this matter, around 3:50 and I agree with him 100%.

Twellman: There's an arrogance in U.S. soccer (http://www.espnfc.com/world-cup-qualifying-concacaf/64/video/3226709/twellman-theres-an-arrogance-in-us-soccer)

Yeah I wouldn't disagree with what he said, especially about the level of coaching. Some others have talked about the class bias in American soccer through their "pay to play" model.

I just don't think you will see a lot of 6 foot 5 NBA guys going 12-14 km in a 90 minute game. Hell, little 55 year old Malcolm Gladwell challenged Lebron to a mile race. Lebron won't do it because he knows he'll lose and it would be embarrassing. Those other sports have good athletes for the specific thing they do in their sport but most of those sports don't translate well to an endurance sport.

Areathrasher
10-12-2017, 01:39 PM
If Bruce Arena had Harry Kane or Jamie Vardy, he would have started either over Pulisic.

I'd say no given Pulisic isn't a striker

Oldtimer
10-12-2017, 02:16 PM
Iceland has qualified, I wonder if they know we have borrowed their signature chant?


Or if they know they weren't the first to use it.

We've used it (the slow clap) since around 2011, the only thing we've borrowed from Iceland is using a drum to coordinate.

OgtheDim
10-12-2017, 04:51 PM
So Arena basically said he did nothing wrong and the USSF is not invovled in player development. Getting embarassing.

Given a year ago people were suggesting we hire this guy, I think we dodged a bullet.

ag futbol
10-12-2017, 10:38 PM
Yeah I wouldn't disagree with what he said, especially about the level of coaching. Some others have talked about the class bias in American soccer through their "pay to play" model.

I just don't think you will see a lot of 6 foot 5 NBA guys going 12-14 km in a 90 minute game. Hell, little 55 year old Malcolm Gladwell challenged Lebron to a mile race. Lebron won't do it because he knows he'll lose and it would be embarrassing. Those other sports have good athletes for the specific thing they do in their sport but most of those sports don't translate well to an endurance sport.
I think much of this is confusing what an athlete has trained for vs. what they are capable of if they trained for the support. Sure, any number of NBA guys referenced weren't trained for soccer but if they were I have a hard time believing they'd be anything but far superior to some recent USMNT stalwarts.

tfclucha
10-12-2017, 11:52 PM
Lets hope CanPL takes relegation/promotion seriously. Obviously the "north american way" of sports doesn't work for soccer

PizzaEatingYeti
10-13-2017, 01:11 AM
There is no way the US is anywhere near England. That is the delusion that is the root of the US problem. They act like that's who they are, but they aren’t.

We had an interesting thread about where TFC rank in world soccer - consensus was that we are about 150th in the world. Ex Pulisic, who plays for Dortmund, a top 25-50 team, TFC is the best team that better US players feature for.

It's not close. England probably have 10-15 guys like Pulisic who feature for teams in the top 25-50 in the world.

This!
The USMNT which played in the last 2-3 years does not crack the top 25 of the national teams in the world.

OgtheDim
10-13-2017, 06:04 AM
Lets hope CanPL takes relegation/promotion seriously. Obviously the "north american way" of sports doesn't work for soccer


Pro Rel is not the issue, at all.

If it was, Scotland would be a powerhouse - every team but Celtic has been relegated lately.

There is absolutely no proven co-relation between pro/rel and MNT success.


What is proven is youth development & coaching is important, and the US had a period prior to 2008 where youth development was really really bad. They have a lost 4 year cohort, now aged 23-27, where hardly anybody got to a decent enough level. They are starting to come out of that (see their U17 success of late).

That and JK was a complete sham when it comes to development of talent at the NT level.


And, as much as people harp on MLS for this stuff, its actually the rise of MLS academies that has led all this down there. Here's hoping that works up here too and that CPL teams recognise the long term investment in academies - I'm not sure they do.


Coach kids properly.

Initial B
10-13-2017, 11:34 AM
I agree, its the development pathway that leads to national team results, not the organization of the top league in the country. The CPL (whenever it gets started) and its academies will be the last missing piece in the development puzzle, bridging the gap between the Regional Div 3 leagues like L1O and the major NA and Euro leagues.

tfclucha
10-13-2017, 12:50 PM
Pro Rel is not the issue, at all.

If it was, Scotland would be a powerhouse - every team but Celtic has been relegated lately.

There is absolutely no proven co-relation between pro/rel and MNT success.


What is proven is youth development & coaching is important, and the US had a period prior to 2008 where youth development was really really bad. They have a lost 4 year cohort, now aged 23-27, where hardly anybody got to a decent enough level. They are starting to come out of that (see their U17 success of late).

That and JK was a complete sham when it comes to development of talent at the NT level.


And, as much as people harp on MLS for this stuff, its actually the rise of MLS academies that has led all this down there. Here's hoping that works up here too and that CPL teams recognise the long term investment in academies - I'm not sure they do.


Coach kids properly.

Just like taylor twelmman said, the usmnt IS FULL OF TATTOOED millionaires who play in a league where there is no pressure. they are the stars and they have no responsibility because there is ALWAYS NEXT YEAR. Pro/rel isnt the only problem, but it is a big problem. Why do we have to do soccer differently here? obviously its not working

With pro/rel young players have more to look forward to. a chance to play in the big leagues and to be better than the stars they may look up to. If a team from Scarborough moves up the ladder and gets to the top league im sure that would bode well for the national team seeing as how a scarbrough team would be home grown. players who would otherwise might not get a second look from the national team scouts and coaches.

Does that at all sound bad to you?

OgtheDim
10-13-2017, 01:10 PM
Just like taylor twelmman said, the usmnt IS FULL OF TATTOOED millionaires who play in a league where there is no pressure


That was Lalas, and he's an ass, and part of a generation who think the current ones don't work as hard as they did, which is patently false.

Pro Rel, if anything, plays havoc with academies because it sucks up all the money to the top clubs of the top league. See the recent discussion about the huge problems with academies in England.

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2017/oct/06/football-biggest-issue-boys-rejected-academies

As between league movement in a pro/rel atmosphere is completley dependent upon investments by ownership, you end up with an arms race that punts kids out at a young age with nowhere to go. If anything, you get pressure at an even younger age to perform, instead of the bringing kids along and developing technical skills.

ensco
10-13-2017, 01:44 PM
This is a subset of the bigger issue. Concacaf get a ridiculous free ride. No way are any of the US, Panama or Honduras better than about 20 European and African teams that aren’t going.

The Concacaf qualification rules, which is I have read linked to Warner’s regime/corruption, needs to change.

That is the elephant in the room, for the US, and for us.

TheGoodson
10-13-2017, 01:58 PM
Just like taylor twelmman said, the usmnt IS FULL OF TATTOOED millionaires who play in a league where there is no pressure. they are the stars and they have no responsibility because there is ALWAYS NEXT YEAR. Pro/rel isnt the only problem, but it is a big problem. Why do we have to do soccer differently here? obviously its not working

With pro/rel young players have more to look forward to. a chance to play in the big leagues and to be better than the stars they may look up to. If a team from Scarborough moves up the ladder and gets to the top league im sure that would bode well for the national team seeing as how a scarbrough team would be home grown. players who would otherwise might not get a second look from the national team scouts and coaches.

Does that at all sound bad to you?

I just want to discuss what I have bolded in your comment:

1. In any give league in Europe how many teams are struggling with demotion 5-6 maybe? so that means there are 14-15 teams that just have to worry about there position in the table so where is their pressure? So this concept of fighting for every game only works if you play for really shitty teams. Is that where you want these players to go?

2. Do you really think that a team from insert small suburb/town in Canada or the US will have the facilities to compete in the MLS? Or is playing a 5,000 seat stadium good enough when you compete with teams who pay 1 player more than the teams whole salary? Is there enough fan support to go to these games? This isn't Europe the die hard support of lower teams is not established in North America. Do you really think the TV partners would like it for LA to go division 2 and some team from Toledo gets promoted? The game would never survive or grow with that model at the present time.

3. Explain how this is a good thing for young players? As if these kids are good enough or the potential to be CMNT players they already know about them. Very few players would fall through the cracks...

So all of that being said let's look at the biggest issue with soccer in North America.... That is the concept of pay to play.

This concept is unheard of in Europe or pretty much anywhere else in the world. I went through this system and the clubs/academies make sooo much money off the players and all they care about is winning not developing talent. These teams poach players from each other trying to win a stupid trophy. Which if you look at it is the stupidest thing as if these organizations focused on development in theory their teams would win more due to the talent that they nurtured.

So with the growth of the MLS academy's which at the moment is the best avenue for a player to develop, save a few pay for academies. See the development of the USMNT Under 17's as the effect of MLS academies on the development of talent. Soccer clubs in the GTA are a joke as they block players from either trying out or playing for the club academy. They put their own agenda ($$$$) over the kid's best interest, as they have to win a trophy to get more money. All MLS academies are free for their players and they get significantly better coaching and training.

When the CPSL starts up if they do not mandate academies for all over their clubs, that would not help the development of players in this country and will not give us a chance to develop our own Pulsic etc...

OgtheDim
10-13-2017, 03:00 PM
This is a subset of the bigger issue. Concacaf get a ridiculous free ride. No way are any of the US, Panama or Honduras better than about 20 European and African teams that aren’t going.

The Concacaf qualification rules, which is I have read linked to Warner’s regime/corruption, needs to change.

That is the elephant in the room, for the US, and for us.

Rumour has it CONCACAF are moving to a larger group stage and away from the single Hex approach. In essence, the third round would become a double Hex, with two groups of 6. This would make it easier in some ways but also slowly increase the quality and engagement within the competition. Of course, when FIFA goes to a 6 teams qualifying out of CONCACAF for 2026, this will change slightly.

I know its a long way away but 2030 is going to be a beast of a qualifying campaign with no guaranteed teams as hosts. By then, we'll know how good Canada is. Its the current 12 year olds who will be the stars of that team.

Kaz
10-13-2017, 09:29 PM
Just like taylor twelmman said, the usmnt IS FULL OF TATTOOED millionaires who play in a league where there is no pressure. they are the stars and they have no responsibility because there is ALWAYS NEXT YEAR. Pro/rel isnt the only problem, but it is a big problem. Why do we have to do soccer differently here? obviously its not working

With pro/rel young players have more to look forward to. a chance to play in the big leagues and to be better than the stars they may look up to. If a team from Scarborough moves up the ladder and gets to the top league im sure that would bode well for the national team seeing as how a scarbrough team would be home grown. players who would otherwise might not get a second look from the national team scouts and coaches.

Does that at all sound bad to you?
OMG


If Pro Reg is a big problem why is the US and Canada still major players in Hockey? England has Pro Reg in Hockey using the same system as they do for Football. Why are they not a power house at this point...because they aren't getting the players or the development from the ground up to identify the talent.

In North America the kids with the body types that excel at Football at an elite level are playing other sports. That may not even be Hockey, Basketball or American/Canadian Football. It maybe Baseball, Running, Tennis. They may never achieve Elite Status because the training to get isn't available as it is with other sports.

In Hockey in North America, Scandinavia and Russia you start young, kids learn the fundamentals and there is a path from bottom to top. In Every major sport in a country for the most part that path is there. It is easier to fall into other paths. Kids with the body types and talent/drive to play are identified and they get better and move to upper tiers. By the time they are 16-17 they are already being scouted. With Soccer a lot of kids aren't really even starting to take soccer serious until they are 13-14 with High School. We still have parents that don't want a score kept. It isn't viewed as a Sport but instead as a game.

Pro Reg is useless and Twellman is an idiot about that, I'm sorry but he is.

For those players there is no consequence. Why? Because the best teams with the best players are at the top of the league in European Football Leagues. There is seldom and major movement in the top tier. The bottom 6 teams might fluctuate but the elite players that have national team players.. there is no worry about regulation. There is not even anything to really play for if you happen to be on a middling team. You are just sort of there.

Look at the Wolfpack D3 (iirc) Rugby team. Bring in the best players they can, train hard and work the arses off and finish top of the league move to D2. Now with the same players they will have a harder time so they will have to bring in new players to replace some of the players last year. Same thing happens. Take a look at the rosters of the Teams at the bottom of the tables and see how many players either stay on (because being in the Premier league is a bonus) or move on to other teams in other leagues at a similar pay. Very Little issue there.

In North America there is a chance of success every year and a chance of failure every year. Not adapting not evolving brings failure Ala the Galaxy. That is the Consequence.

In North America it isn't Pro/Reg soccer snobs need to get this bull crude out of their heads. What is holding back the North American game is WE DON'T TAKE IT SERIOUSLY. Until Soccer Mom's start becoming Soccer Parents and they are pissed their kids aren't learning good dribbling skills at 7 or 8. Or that a coach isn't working on crossing with teens or that practices only last 1 hour twice a week instead of 3 hours 3 times a week. The game isn't going to improve.

Until kids see Soccer as a viable sport to play from Age 7 till 17 and School put effort into as they do with Baseball, Basketball, Hockey and Football we won't improve. I went to high school with guys that were OHL, and AHL.. one even played at the top tier in England. (My high school bullies as it happens both now cops.. fun) My High School soccer Legacy... a PRO Linesmen who I see at TFC games from time to time (by which I mean I notice he is there) Even though I went to high school in the 90s in a heavily Italian populated high school after a World Cup win for Italy and while they game in second in the World Cup. I didn't try out for the Soccer team because (even though I was built for it) I hadn't played since I was in grade 3 when I switched to Baseball because that is what family watched. (I sucked balls at baseball.. truly awful)

I ended up getting into Track instead. I could kick a ball with good accuracy from distance, ran cross country and sprinted a 100m in about 12.5 seconds (not amazing but not shabby for grade 9) if I had grown up in england by everything I have ever heard I would have been pushed into Soccer likely stuck with it. I don't know if I could have gone anywhere but the point is in Canada it isn't seen as a serious sport. Still isn't. I might have been decent at it. Many kids that never play may be decent at it.

We don't need Pro/Reg we need to get kids playing it seriously, stop treating it like a game like red rover (though Kabbadi is semi popular in India) and actually get down to business and start training the kids to play identifying the ones that are good and pushing them to play better.

Smokecell
10-13-2017, 10:19 PM
https://youtu.be/_zYLi0jPwFc

Jermaine Jones rant. I'll just leave this here...

molenshtain
10-13-2017, 11:30 PM
All this hand-wringing and searching for big answers by people who are supposed to know better is getting nauseating. Mexico were a Graham Zusi stoppage time goal away from not qualifying for the last world cup. Now they're ushering in what many consider a new golden generation - being held back only by the Klinsmann-esque selection and tactics from their current coach.

Gulati will be ushered out next month. The new manager will have a wealth of very talented young players to blend into a squad that's talented in spots. The 2022 world cup will be expanded to 40 something teams and the U.S. will never miss a world cup again. Arena isn't far off when he talked about not much actually being wrong. What was wrong was sticking with Klinsmann for five years and letting him dig a whole that Arena couldn't in the end dig them out of. That's dealt with now. If the new manager can do things like line up a midfield that consists of more than Just Bradley the U.S. will do fine.

Richard
10-13-2017, 11:42 PM
https://youtu.be/_zYLi0jPwFc

Jermaine Jones rant. I'll just leave this here...

He makes some good points, especially talking about football IQ as its an important area to develop.

I also like the fact he called out players for taking the easy route, if you have the opportunity you should look to go to Europe and not cash in on MLS.

While it important to have a strong national league, I still think your top and up and coming players shouldn't be in MLS. They need the top level competitiveness and mindset to excel at the world class level.

OgtheDim
10-14-2017, 05:42 AM
Nice bit Kaz.

Just one point


We still have parents that don't want a score kept. It isn't viewed as a Sport but instead as a game.

Reason they shouldn't keep score at a young age is by focusing on winning and scoring then the emphasis placed on brute strength, speed and "KICK IT!!!".

We don't develop passing and technique and defending well at all.

Mind you, the whole freaking world has issues developing fullbacks.

denime
10-14-2017, 07:23 AM
All this hand-wringing and searching for big answers by people who are supposed to know better is getting nauseating. Mexico were a Graham Zusi stoppage time goal away from not qualifying for the last world cup. Now they're ushering in what many consider a new golden generation - being held back only by the Klinsmann-esque selection and tactics from their current coach.

Gulati will be ushered out next month. The new manager will have a wealth of very talented young players to blend into a squad that's talented in spots. The 2022 world cup will be expanded to 40 something teams and the U.S. will never miss a world cup again. Arena isn't far off when he talked about not much actually being wrong. What was wrong was sticking with Klinsmann for five years and letting him dig a whole that Arena couldn't in the end dig them out of. That's dealt with now. If the new manager can do things like line up a midfield that consists of more than Just Bradley the U.S. will do fine.


Disagree 100% ,and I'm not the only one


WATCH: ESPN FC TV breaks down the USMNT disaster (http://www.espnfc.com/video/espn-fc-tv/86/video/3226999/watch-espn-fc-tv-breaks-down-the-usmnt-disaster)


WATCH: Craig Burley finally weighs in on U.S. (http://www.espnfc.com/video/espn-fc-tv/86/video/3227745/watch-craig-burley-finally-weighs-in-on-us)

molenshtain
10-14-2017, 07:52 AM
Disagree 100% ,and I'm not the only one


WATCH: ESPN FC TV breaks down the USMNT disaster (http://www.espnfc.com/video/espn-fc-tv/86/video/3226999/watch-espn-fc-tv-breaks-down-the-usmnt-disaster)


WATCH: Craig Burley finally weighs in on U.S. (http://www.espnfc.com/video/espn-fc-tv/86/video/3227745/watch-craig-burley-finally-weighs-in-on-us)


Which parts are you disagreeing with in particular? There are a lot of takes in those two clips ranging from respectable (Hislop and Twellman) to downright idiotic ( Nicol saying there was nothing wrong with how the team lined up and that they were just missing the captain whose going to kick people). Klinsmann broke everything about this team. No identity, no cohesion, non-existent mentality brought to each game. Arena tried and failed to put duct tape over the cracks. I don't think there's any proof that it's more than that.

Kaz
10-14-2017, 08:50 AM
Nice bit Kaz.

Just one point



Reason they shouldn't keep score at a young age is by focusing on winning and scoring then the emphasis placed on brute strength, speed and "KICK IT!!!".

We don't develop passing and technique and defending well at all.

Mind you, the whole freaking world has issues developing fullbacks.

Yes but in Ontario they stopped keep score for kids under 12. The kids can keep score in their head. I don't know if they reversed that but this isn't timbits level this a level where they should start developing that desire to win. Without the desire to win you see soccer as a recreational game not a competitive sport to compete at the highest level. I can understand not keeping score at 6 or 7. MLS hopefully is changing that but I have my doubts.

Good coaching, teaching the kids that developing is important, and teaching them how to deal with a loss at a young age is important. Not just for sport but in life. I stopped working with kids in a youth organization because of a parents that demand that their child aways be given special treatment. A child that has never learned to deal with loss and disappointment and at 13 when he started seeing it he started acting out. I know first hand what happens to kids who feel like they have always won because of Parents with the don't keep score mentality... on top of the heliocopter my kid is special parents. You can have one or the other.. in our society we have both. My experience with parents though leaves me a tad biased.

I'm not a sport psychologist maybe that is how the rest of the world does it I don't follow the rest of the world enough to know... and if the rest of the world is developing the players like that then so be it. As long as they are actually learning the skills here. I'm not convinced they are doing that either. I'd take the time to learn to coach or ref or be involved.. but I have 0 interest in dealing with parents from my generation.

Auzzy
10-14-2017, 10:01 AM
Watch this for the T&T commentary, amazing:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gsJNQLYI3RA

ensco
10-14-2017, 10:24 AM
^That is great.

For those who haven't seen/heard, the Egyptian TV call of the bedlam in the Egypt-DR Congo game last Sunday is a classic. (This is what it looks like when a serious soccer country qualifies for the first time in a generation)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2SZB3wNphfs

molenshtain
10-14-2017, 10:44 AM
None of those calls holds a candle to the stuff Ray Hudson comes up with on a weekly basis.

He once described Messi as "like a zombie hunter looking for a Twinkie", which is such a specifically insane reference on so many levels. That game must have been 7-8 years ago back when I had cable but to this day I still think about it about once every week or two. Seriously the most underrated character in football this side of the ocean. Crazy to think he once won an MLS championship as a coach.

Hamilton_Red
10-14-2017, 06:20 PM
This is a subset of the bigger issue. Concacaf get a ridiculous free ride. No way are any of the US, Panama or Honduras better than about 20 European and African teams that aren’t going.

The Concacaf qualification rules, which is I have read linked to Warner’s regime/corruption, needs to change.

That is the elephant in the room, for the US, and for us.

Sorry but that is Euro bias nonsense. Only 1 out 4 CONCACAf team didn't make the Knockout stages. We sell ourselves way too short.



Pos
Team

v
t
e



Pld
W
D
L
GF
GA
GD
Pts
Qualification


1
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f2/Flag_of_Costa_Rica.svg/23px-Flag_of_Costa_Rica.svg.png Costa Rica (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Costa_Rica_national_football_team)
3
2
1
0
4
1
+3
7
Advance to knockout stage (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_FIFA_World_Cup#Knockout_stage)


2
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fe/Flag_of_Uruguay.svg/23px-Flag_of_Uruguay.svg.png Uruguay (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uruguay_national_football_team)
3
2
0
1
4
4
0
6


3
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/0/03/Flag_of_Italy.svg/23px-Flag_of_Italy.svg.png Italy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italy_national_football_team)
3
1
0
2
2
3
−1
3



4
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/b/be/Flag_of_England.svg/23px-Flag_of_England.svg.png England (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/England_national_football_team)
3
0
1
2
2
4
−2
1






Group G



Pos
Team

v
t
e



Pld
W
D
L
GF
GA
GD
Pts
Qualification


1
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/b/ba/Flag_of_Germany.svg/23px-Flag_of_Germany.svg.png Germany (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany_national_football_team)
3
2
1
0
7
2
+5
7
Advance to knockout stage (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_FIFA_World_Cup#Knockout_stage)


2
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/a/a4/Flag_of_the_United_States.svg/23px-Flag_of_the_United_States.svg.png United States (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_men%27s_national_soccer_team)
3
1
1
1
4
4
0
4


3
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5c/Flag_of_Portugal.svg/23px-Flag_of_Portugal.svg.png Portugal (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portugal_national_football_team)
3
1
1
1
4
7
−3
4



4
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/19/Flag_of_Ghana.svg/23px-Flag_of_Ghana.svg.png Ghana (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghana_national_football_team)
3
0
1
2
4
6
−2
1







and Group A



Pos
Team

v
t
e



Pld
W
D
L
GF
GA
GD
Pts
Qualification


1
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/0/05/Flag_of_Brazil.svg/22px-Flag_of_Brazil.svg.png Brazil (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazil_national_football_team) (H)
3
2
1
0
7
2
+5
7
Advance to knockout stage (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_FIFA_World_Cup#Knockout_stage)


2
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fc/Flag_of_Mexico.svg/23px-Flag_of_Mexico.svg.png Mexico (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexico_national_football_team)
3
2
1
0
4
1
+3
7


3
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1b/Flag_of_Croatia.svg/23px-Flag_of_Croatia.svg.png Croatia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croatia_national_football_team)
3
1
0
2
6
6
0
3



4
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4f/Flag_of_Cameroon.svg/23px-Flag_of_Cameroon.svg.png Cameroon (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cameroon_national_football_team)
3
0
0
3
1
9
−8
0

PAOK17
10-14-2017, 10:18 PM
We've used it (the slow clap) since around 2011, the only thing we've borrowed from Iceland is using a drum to coordinate.
Exactly! When I was in 127 in 2009, the North End Elite would do it every game. And even then it wasn't a new thing, as I had already seen other teams in Europe use it for years before TFC's existence (such as PAOK). The only people who actually believe it to be Icelandic are those who only watch soccer every other June.

denime
10-15-2017, 07:57 AM
Sorry but that is Euro bias nonsense. Only 1 out 4 CONCACAf team didn't make the Knockout stages. We sell ourselves way too short.



Pos
Team

v
t
e


Pld
W
D
L
GF
GA
GD
Pts
Qualification


1
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f2/Flag_of_Costa_Rica.svg/23px-Flag_of_Costa_Rica.svg.png Costa Rica (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Costa_Rica_national_football_team)
3
2
1
0
4
1
+3
7
Advance to knockout stage (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_FIFA_World_Cup#Knockout_stage)


2
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fe/Flag_of_Uruguay.svg/23px-Flag_of_Uruguay.svg.png Uruguay (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uruguay_national_football_team)
3
2
0
1
4
4
0
6


3
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/0/03/Flag_of_Italy.svg/23px-Flag_of_Italy.svg.png Italy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italy_national_football_team)
3
1
0
2
2
3
−1
3



4
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/b/be/Flag_of_England.svg/23px-Flag_of_England.svg.png England (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/England_national_football_team)
3
0
1
2
2
4
−2
1





Group G



Pos
Team

v
t
e


Pld
W
D
L
GF
GA
GD
Pts
Qualification


1
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/b/ba/Flag_of_Germany.svg/23px-Flag_of_Germany.svg.png Germany (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany_national_football_team)
3
2
1
0
7
2
+5
7
Advance to knockout stage (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_FIFA_World_Cup#Knockout_stage)


2
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/a/a4/Flag_of_the_United_States.svg/23px-Flag_of_the_United_States.svg.png United States (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_men%27s_national_soccer_team)
3
1
1
1
4
4
0
4


3
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5c/Flag_of_Portugal.svg/23px-Flag_of_Portugal.svg.png Portugal (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portugal_national_football_team)
3
1
1
1
4
7
−3
4



4
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/19/Flag_of_Ghana.svg/23px-Flag_of_Ghana.svg.png Ghana (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghana_national_football_team)
3
0
1
2
4
6
−2
1






and Group A



Pos
Team

v
t
e


Pld
W
D
L
GF
GA
GD
Pts
Qualification


1
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/0/05/Flag_of_Brazil.svg/22px-Flag_of_Brazil.svg.png Brazil (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazil_national_football_team) (H)
3
2
1
0
7
2
+5
7
Advance to knockout stage (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_FIFA_World_Cup#Knockout_stage)


2
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fc/Flag_of_Mexico.svg/23px-Flag_of_Mexico.svg.png Mexico (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexico_national_football_team)
3
2
1
0
4
1
+3
7


3
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1b/Flag_of_Croatia.svg/23px-Flag_of_Croatia.svg.png Croatia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croatia_national_football_team)
3
1
0
2
6
6
0
3



4
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4f/Flag_of_Cameroon.svg/23px-Flag_of_Cameroon.svg.png Cameroon (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cameroon_national_football_team)
3
0
0
3
1
9
−8
0





It's not bias it's the reality,CONCACAF has rigged system to make sure Mexico and USA qualify every time,and we are not selling us short,COCNCRAP Region is light years behind UEFA.

If I'm not mistaken it was announced that CONCACRAP is changing their WCQ formation more HEX.

Fort York Redcoat
10-15-2017, 09:50 AM
This thread is where its at.

I really don't care that US under achieved their over achieving past selves. The US should be worried with how much they've invested in their progress but that's not really my concern.

I love that they are changing the route to World Cup in our region. The route hurt one team more than any other in development, folks. That would be us not the US. Our free ride with such a poor ranking hurt our competitiveness.

I'm looking forward to a double hex our any version with more competitive matches for Canada.

OgtheDim
10-15-2017, 10:12 AM
Having a Canadian running CONCACAF is certainly helping. And as part of his mandate is to give more hope to the smaller Caribbean countries, that is going to help us as well.

Warner pretty much fixed the system so that the US & Mexico would always qualify and that T&T would likely get to the final round of qualifying. Everybody else he didn't care about as they couldn't line his pockets.

ensco
10-15-2017, 11:22 AM
Sorry but that is Euro bias nonsense. Only 1 out 4 CONCACAf team didn't make the Knockout stages. We sell ourselves way too short.



Let's keep going. Iceland are better than England, the Netherlands, Croatia, Turkey and the Czechs, based on the last couple of years.

My personal favourite: New Zealand were the only undefeated team at WC 2010.

These tournaments have a huge element of luck, in terms of what happens at them. They are so short. On the day, sometimes, Crystal Palace beats Chelsea, but people don't start writing stories about how Crystal Palace is the same as Chelsea.

You can cherry pick anything you want, that's why you have to have a time series.

EDIT:
I think people are possibly being a bit harsh on the US. They have gotten out of the group stage 3 of the last 4 times. In 2014 they were in a Group of Death (with Ghana, Portugal and Germany, and finished in the top two)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_at_the_FIFA_World_Cup
They are not that far from elite status. Not making it is a pretty big upset.

Mexico have made it out of the group stage 7 straight times. That is actually quite impressive. They clearly deserve to consider themselves, and be considered, an elite program.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexico_at_the_FIFA_World_Cup

notthesun
10-15-2017, 12:32 PM
A statistical look...

https://twitter.com/tutulismyname/status/917796591653834752

ensco
10-15-2017, 12:37 PM
^That methodology flatters South American because there are no true minnows there to pull the ELO down.

African qualifying is brutal. I think if they looked at the ELO of the teams that just miss, African qualifying would look as tough as Conmebol. (Same might be true for Europe.)

You have to win your group - no playoffs in Africa. Look at these groups:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_FIFA_World_Cup_qualification_(CAF)

Hamilton_Red
10-15-2017, 02:17 PM
Let's keep going. Iceland are better than England, the Netherlands, Croatia, Turkey and the Czechs, based on the last couple of years.

My personal favourite: New Zealand were the only undefeated team at WC 2010.

These tournaments have a huge element of luck, in terms of what happens at them. They are so short. On the day, sometimes, Crystal Palace beats Chelsea, but people don't start writing stories about how Crystal Palace is the same as Chelsea.

You can cherry pick anything you want, that's why you have to have a time series.

EDIT:
I think people are possibly being a bit harsh on the US. They have gotten out of the group stage 3 of the last 4 times. In 2014 they were in a Group of Death (with Ghana, Portugal and Germany, and finished in the top two)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_at_the_FIFA_World_Cup
They are not that far from elite status. Not making it is a pretty big upset.

Mexico have made it out of the group stage 7 straight times. That is actually quite impressive. They clearly deserve to consider themselves, and be considered, an elite program.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexico_at_the_FIFA_World_Cup


Certainly agree with your Edit: section. Mexico is the best footballing country that hasn't won the World Cup. I'd love to see them win it some year. In some ways it might be a good thing for the US to sit out this World Cup. For one thing it's in Russia and is going to be an absolute shitshow. Imagine Trump on trial for collusion with Putin in the middle of that?

Richard
10-15-2017, 06:19 PM
I don't know if I'm out of touch in saying this but where was this thread when Canada got eliminated? Where was all of this discussion then? Of course this was a shock result, however we shouldn't be resigned to accept Canada not making it to a World Cup either.

ag futbol
10-15-2017, 08:31 PM
I don't know if I'm out of touch in saying this but where was this thread when Canada got eliminated? Where was all of this discussion then? Of course this was a shock result, however we shouldn't be resigned to accept Canada not making it to a World Cup either.
They’ve been so bad for so long it’s basically treated as an inevitability. Sad but there was little going into this qualifying round suggesting we’d be competitive.

Player development in this country has been extremely awful for about a decade. We’ve been getting comparably worse vs. some other nations in CONCACAF.

Until that gets fixed it’s hard to get excited.

PizzaEatingYeti
10-15-2017, 10:05 PM
Pundits talking about:
Does MLS play a role in USMNT struggles? (http://www.espnfc.com/video/espn-fc-tv/86/video/3228413/does-mls-play-a-role-in-usmnt-struggles)

PizzaEatingYeti
10-15-2017, 10:08 PM
I don't know if I'm out of touch in saying this but where was this thread when Canada got eliminated? Where was all of this discussion then? Of course this was a shock result, however we shouldn't be resigned to accept Canada not making it to a World Cup either.

This thread is only here because Bradley and Altidore are 2 of the most defining players of TFC.
If these 2 guys would be not among the best 6-7 TFC players over 2016-17, I am sure there would be no such thread.

Fort York Redcoat
10-16-2017, 07:28 AM
I don't know if I'm out of touch in saying this but where was this thread when Canada got eliminated? Where was all of this discussion then? Of course this was a shock result, however we shouldn't be resigned to accept Canada not making it to a World Cup either.

In the Canada section. I start a lot of the threads there. When that convo ends I go to the V's.

This thread isn't just relevant for the American stars we have on our club team but for our league that is designed to be a vehicle for American talent. If Canadian talent improves from MLS they don't care. It's why we need our own league below it for the kids from the academies to go to. Not just get in line with the NCAA.

Fort York Redcoat
10-16-2017, 07:34 AM
They’ve been so bad for so long it’s basically treated as an inevitability. Sad but there was little going into this qualifying round suggesting we’d be competitive.

Player development in this country has been extremely awful for about a decade. We’ve been getting comparably worse vs. some other nations in CONCACAF.

Until that gets fixed it’s hard to get excited.

Player development has gone through more change in the last decade than ever before. That's not awful. We needed change. The results aren't good enough but to stop at development = awful is tuning out.

We HAVE got worse vs other nations in CONCACAF. We also have had more announcements over the last years unveiling talent that have declared for Canada. That is a good thing.

Again, admittedly. not good enough. Those announcements were for players that waited to declare and hoped their careers or form would benefit more than the teams. It's still better than no declarations though.

I don't disagree with your excitement level but I'm more in line with Richard.

Redcoe15
10-16-2017, 11:45 AM
This thread isn't just relevant for the American stars we have on our club team but for our league that is designed to be a vehicle for American talent. If Canadian talent improves from MLS they don't care. It's why we need our own league below it for the kids from the academies to go to. Not just get in line with the NCAA.
Agree. But two things concern me about this CPL startup. Are owners going to create this league for the right reasons, ie Canadian soccer development, or do they see this as an opportunity to make a fast buck off of the growing popularity of the game here? Some of these potential investors own CFL teams and are might be doing it to fill dates in their stadiums, like Robert Kraft does with the Revs. And do they think they can go head to head with Canadian clubs in MLS and overtake them in popularity because they're seen as more "traditional"? If one and/or two of these are correct, then I fear development of talent from this league will be for not and it will end up killing itself.

Kaz
10-16-2017, 01:12 PM
Agree. But two things concern me about this CPL startup. Are owners going to create this league for the right reasons, ie Canadian soccer development, or do they see this as an opportunity to make a fast buck off of the growing popularity of the game here? Some of these potential investors own CFL teams and are might be doing it to fill dates in their stadiums, like Robert Kraft does with the Revs. And do they think they can go head to head with Canadian clubs in MLS and overtake them in popularity because they're seen as more "traditional"? If one and/or two of these are correct, then I fear development of talent from this league will be for not and it will end up killing itself.


It is CFL owners... It will just be a reason to use the stadium a little more so they can get more government handouts down the road. The only hope for the CPL (which still is only theoretical) is enough non CFL ownership groups get involved and make it a true D2 league. (It isn't a D1 league I'm sorry, the CSA can take a flying leap).

First game in 2018? my arse.. no people have been hired, no teams announced really, no players, no coaches.. Nothing. There is no league. Not at the moment.

Fort York Redcoat
10-17-2017, 06:52 AM
Agree. But two things concern me about this CPL startup. Are owners going to create this league for the right reasons, ie Canadian soccer development, or do they see this as an opportunity to make a fast buck off of the growing popularity of the game here? Some of these potential investors own CFL teams and are might be doing it to fill dates in their stadiums, like Robert Kraft does with the Revs. And do they think they can go head to head with Canadian clubs in MLS and overtake them in popularity because they're seen as more "traditional"? If one and/or two of these are correct, then I fear development of talent from this league will be for not and it will end up killing itself.


It is CFL owners... It will just be a reason to use the stadium a little more so they can get more government handouts down the road. The only hope for the CPL (which still is only theoretical) is enough non CFL ownership groups get involved and make it a true D2 league. (It isn't a D1 league I'm sorry, the CSA can take a flying leap).

First game in 2018? my arse.. no people have been hired, no teams announced really, no players, no coaches.. Nothing. There is no league. Not at the moment.

I don't know guys. I think a lot of what you're saying can be used to benefit the leagues rivalries. No doubt these teams will be date fillers for CFL stadia but I don't think they will be the only teams in the league. I can only imagine the back and forth between fans of the CFL affiliates and the teams that aren't. This league needs to be larger in number of teams than the CFL and involve as many cities as possible since the quality won't be there for a number of years.

The important part of that is that Canadian kids and players on the cusp of D1 leagues can play and improve.

TFC Tifoso
10-19-2017, 07:45 AM
Claudio Reyna with a very scathing analysis of the USSF....
http://www.espnfc.us/united-states/story/3233905/claudio-reyna-slams-united-states-soccer-were-far-too-arrogant

Landon Donovan considering a run for USSF President....
http://www.espnfc.us/united-states/story/3234662/landon-donovan-considering-run-for-us-soccer-presidency-source

Seems like the former players, especially from around the 94-98-02 teams, are the most upset about it all, and rightfully so too....these are the players who had the biggest hand in building US Soccer and the NT into what it was before this flame out.
Probably really burns these guys to see the current lot pissing it all away.
I'd like to see what some of the players from that generation could do in some USSF management positions....the certainly seem passionate enough about the whole situation....

Oldtimer
10-19-2017, 08:34 AM
Claudio Reyna with a very scathing analysis of the USSF....
http://www.espnfc.us/united-states/story/3233905/claudio-reyna-slams-united-states-soccer-were-far-too-arrogant

Landon Donovan considering a run for USSF President....
http://www.espnfc.us/united-states/story/3234662/landon-donovan-considering-run-for-us-soccer-presidency-source

Seems like the former players, especially from around the 94-98-02 teams, are the most upset about it all, and rightfully so too....these are the players who had the biggest hand in building US Soccer and the NT into what it was before this flame out.
Probably really burns these guys to see the current lot pissing it all away.
I'd like to see what some of the players from that generation could do in some USSF management positions....the certainly seem passionate enough about the whole situation....

Gulati is part of the Old Boys club that has run everything throughout the FIFA world (I'm not saying that he was involved in the corruption that Warner and Co. were involved in). He's never played professionally. While he's done a lot for US soccer, it's time to turn over this bunch in favour of new ideas to bring things to the next level.

TFC Tifoso
10-19-2017, 08:59 AM
Gulati is part of the Old Boys club that has run everything throughout the FIFA world (I'm not saying that he was involved in the corruption that Warner and Co. were involved in). He's never played professionally. While he's done a lot for US soccer, it's time to turn over this bunch in favour of new ideas to bring things to the next level.

yes I agree....and I totally get the arrogance part; it is something I thought of straight away after their elimination as well.
Twellman, Donovan (in an interview I heard on Siruis/XM 85 with Brian Dunseth), and now Reyna have all used the exact same word "arrogance"....makes you wonder how tense it really is/was between the players and USSF management.
Could it be possible that the players sandbagged the qualification knowing it was the only way to make any changes to the system?? Crazy conspiracy, I know, but seeing just how upset former players are, it makes me think.
Sure, current players won't say much but the older guys in the player fraternity may be speaking on their behalf....

fergiejr
10-19-2017, 10:37 AM
yes I agree....and I totally get the arrogance part; it is something I thought of straight away after their elimination as well.
Twellman, Donovan (in an interview I heard on Siruis/XM 85 with Brian Dunseth), and now Reyna have all used the exact same word "arrogance"....makes you wonder how tense it really is/was between the players and USSF management.
Could it be possible that the players sandbagged the qualification knowing it was the only way to make any changes to the system?? Crazy conspiracy, I know, but seeing just how upset former players are, it makes me think.
Sure, current players won't say much but the older guys in the player fraternity may be speaking on their behalf....

I think that's a reach, but it also could be that their heart wasn't in it. You would have to think that some of the older guys might not see another WC and wouldn't want to tank this tournament. Guys like Dempsey, Bradley and Altidore would become (or in the case of the latter two, continue to be) targetted by fans that were not happy - maybe costing them another appearance.

I did joke with my wife though, saying that Bradley and Altidore tanked it so they could remain with us more next year... :rolleyes:

TFC Tifoso
10-19-2017, 10:53 AM
I think that's a reach, but it also could be that their heart wasn't in it. You would have to think that some of the older guys might not see another WC and wouldn't want to tank this tournament. Guys like Dempsey, Bradley and Altidore would become (or in the case of the latter two, continue to be) targetted by fans that were not happy - maybe costing them another appearance.

I did joke with my wife though, saying that Bradley and Altidore tanked it so they could remain with us more next year... :rolleyes:

ya, I totally understand it could be a reach, but just my thought seeing the comments coming out, and how similar they are....
It would be really easy for these former players to say something like "oh we did our best while we were there, blah, blah, blah", or go all Lalas on the current group of players, but most of these guys are PISSED OFF at the association, with little to no mention of the players, aside from the orange-haired one.

vortexdr
10-20-2017, 10:31 AM
Meh, hard to feel for them after they kicked Klinsman out for no good reason. The man that basically made the German national team what it is today...What do they do instead, put a Sunday league level manager in charge. Now average players like Donovan opening their mouth....

molenshtain
10-20-2017, 10:37 AM
Meh, hard to feel for them after they kicked Klinsman out for no good reason. The man that basically made the German national team what it is today...What do they do instead, put a Sunday league level manager in charge. Now average players like Donovan opening their mouth....

This is quite the take.

TheGoodson
10-20-2017, 11:36 AM
Meh, hard to feel for them after they kicked Klinsman out for no good reason. The man that basically made the German national team what it is today...What do they do instead, put a Sunday league level manager in charge. Now average players like Donovan opening their mouth....

Really????

The Germans are what they are due to failing to make a tournament (I think it was Euro 92) and as a result had a reset for all of the clubs regarding their youth set up (Similar to what Hockey Canada did after the 98 Olympics)... Secondly it is widely known that he is not a details guy and Low was the mastermind and hence the dominance we have seen since.. Also, spend a little time reading up on how much of a disaster he was a coach of Bayern Munich (I think he lasted 6 months). Or just look at the fucking mess his consulting was with the TFC Winter/Mariner experiment...

He is/was no savior and no better than any of the USMNT coaches before him... Bob Bradely had the most successful run in a world cup, so think about that

ensco
10-20-2017, 11:57 AM
This "Germany reset" story has always been pretty ripe. We had a thread on that in here a few years back. Germany had a bad Euro 2000, but give me a break. They were, are and always have been an effing world powerhouse, this idea that they did some grand strategic top-to-bottom rework is just mostly made up.

molenshtain
10-20-2017, 12:07 PM
This "Germany reset" story has always been pretty ripe. We had a thread on that in here a few years back. Germany had a bad Euro 2000, but give me a break. They were, are and always have been an effing world powerhouse, this idea that they did some grand strategic top-to-bottom rework is just mostly made up.

Well there's a very good book about it by rafa honigstein that would argue differently. Germany were not good for most of the 90's and their club set ups were growing increasingly vulnerable to situations like the one Dortmund had around the turn of the century. They reshaped their clubs and spent a ton on getting better coaches from the top down. Without the reshape there's a strong possibility that Germany would look a lot more like Italy or England the Dutch in terms of talent and infrastructure, rather than being a cut above them as they currently are.


On the other hand, the old adage rarely lies: "football is a simple game. 22 players kick the ball around for 90 minutes and at the end Germany wins."

TheGoodson
10-20-2017, 12:12 PM
This "Germany reset" story has always been pretty ripe. We had a thread on that in here a few years back. Germany had a bad Euro 2000, but give me a break. They were, are and always have been an effing world powerhouse, this idea that they did some grand strategic top-to-bottom rework is just mostly made up.

Agreed, but as I stated that the Hockey Canada summit after the Nagano Olympics is the same thing... What they (Germans) did was an emphasis on spending more money on youth development, it wasn't anything radical, but a reset... They didn't reinvent the wheel etc.

Fort York Redcoat
10-22-2017, 10:36 AM
Meh, hard to feel for them after they kicked Klinsman out for no good reason. The man that basically made the German national team what it is today...What do they do instead, put a Sunday league level manager in charge. Now average players like Donovan opening their mouth....

Klinsmann. Great player. Lucky coach. Luck only gets you so far. I wonder what we could've got instead of his consultation for TFC.

Initial B
10-22-2017, 11:52 AM
From what I understand, it wasn't Klinsmann's coaching that made the German National team good, it was that he let his assistant (now head coach) Joachim Low make the tactical formations.

ensco
10-24-2017, 11:30 AM
Hey, look who has something to say about all this.....

https://www.socceramerica.com/publications/article/75397/kevin-payne-on-the-current-freak-out-player-devel.html

Canary10
10-24-2017, 12:36 PM
Hey, look who has something to say about all this.....

https://www.socceramerica.com/publications/article/75397/kevin-payne-on-the-current-freak-out-player-devel.html

Hmm. Doesn't sound like the incompetent leader he was made out to be by some when he was let go at TFC.

ensco
10-24-2017, 01:29 PM
Hmm. Doesn't sound like the incompetent leader he was made out to be by some when he was let go at TFC.

Yeah, I always liked Bob Gansler

;-]

(in case you didn't, scroll down)

Hamilton_Red
11-13-2017, 09:08 PM
and....there is Italy knocked out of the World Cup. Cue a lot of navel gazing about the state of Serie A. Is the league holding the National team back? The poor state of Italian player development etc...

Canary10
11-13-2017, 09:10 PM
Also will the entire country turn on Buffon?

StokeciTFC
11-13-2017, 09:31 PM
Also will the entire country turn on Buffon?

No, but the situation with Buffon in no way resembles that of anyone in the USMNT.

There will be an enormous amount of merda thrown at almost everyone else, though.

Blindside16
11-14-2017, 05:14 AM
Also will the entire country turn on Buffon?

Doubtful, Buffon is practically a God over there plus it's not his fault Italy couldn't muster a goal over 180 minutes.

Derko
11-14-2017, 07:03 AM
and....there is Italy knocked out of the World Cup. Cue a lot of navel gazing about the state of Serie A. Is the league holding the National team back? The poor state of Italian player development etc...

Kind of like the EPL, does nothing for England international soccer, nor does it ever intend too.

whositwhatnow
11-14-2017, 07:42 AM
Also will the entire country turn on Buffon?


no way, hell if he decided to run for president he'd probably win. He was the heart of that italian team.

Canary10
11-14-2017, 09:29 AM
Doubtful, Buffon is practically a God over there plus it's not his fault Italy couldn't muster a goal over 180 minutes.

Yeah.

Just imagine if Canada didn't make the World Cup? Omg.

C.Ronaldo
11-14-2017, 09:35 AM
no way, hell if he decided to run for president he'd probably win. He was the heart of that italian team.

Buffon is not just the heart of the Italian team, he is all thats good about soccer, an ambassador for the game

TFC Tifoso
11-14-2017, 09:41 AM
Also will the entire country turn on Buffon?

Why would they?.....none of this is on him....if anything, from what I've read so far there is nothing but sympathy for him, with this failure being his last image in an Azzurri shirt....imo it is squarely on Ventura and the FIGC....


and....there is Italy knocked out of the World Cup. Cue a lot of navel gazing about the state of Serie A. Is the league holding the National team back? The poor state of Italian player development etc...


Kind of like the EPL, does nothing for England international soccer, nor does it ever intend too.

bingo....

Canary10
11-14-2017, 09:55 AM
Why would they?.....none of this is on him....if anything, from what I've read so far there is nothing but sympathy for him, with this failure being his last image in an Azzurri shirt....imo it is squarely on Ventura and the FIGC....





bingo....

I wasn't suggesting they should. I was really just criticizing US supporters for their treatment of Jozy and Michael. Thus why it's in this thread.

reggie
11-14-2017, 10:27 AM
i wonder if the italians in the US will boo GIO now:facepalm:

TFC Tifoso
11-14-2017, 10:30 AM
I wasn't suggesting they should. I was really just criticizing US supporters for their treatment of Jozy and Michael. Thus why it's in this thread.

ah right, got it.....

and regarding Jozy and Bradley, imo most of the reason they took so much heat is because they play for TFC....and for fans of the USMT, it made them the easy targets....

Red CB Toronto
06-25-2018, 02:49 PM
Just like taylor twelmman said, the usmnt IS FULL OF TATTOOED millionaires who play in a league where there is no pressure. they are the stars and they have no responsibility because there is ALWAYS NEXT YEAR. Pro/rel isnt the only problem, but it is a big problem. Why do we have to do soccer differently here? obviously its not working

With pro/rel young players have more to look forward to. a chance to play in the big leagues and to be better than the stars they may look up to. If a team from Scarborough moves up the ladder and gets to the top league im sure that would bode well for the national team seeing as how a scarbrough team would be home grown. players who would otherwise might not get a second look from the national team scouts and coaches.

Does that at all sound bad to you?

Your PM box is full, clear out some messages as I can’t reply to your PM regarding the tickets.