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mistercorporate
09-18-2017, 04:47 PM
With average regular season attendance this year likely to hit the 28,000 mark, how long do you think it will take before BMO Field engages in another round of capacity expansion (the stadium was designed with easy expansion in mind)? We will likely get some games for the 2026 World Cup, which seems to be a shoe-in for Canada-USA-Mexico's joint bid, so what capacity do you think we'll need (since the baseball-specific Rogers Centre is no longer an option). My expectation is 40,000 permanent seats by 2026, with construction possibly to begin in another 3 years. With the potential of a much larger TV contract in 2022, we need to prepare the good ship TFC for MLS 4.0...

Kaz
09-18-2017, 05:21 PM
Well first I think the Wolfpack needs to get the City and Liberty Village NIMBY groups to ok a expansion of Lampart Field to about 16,000.. on the condition the Argos can go there. Then we can tear out the south end put in safe standing (if the supporters want it) and put in a new north end that closes in the north west corner and hopefully can take the stadium up to about 35000-36000. Then tear down the upper deck of the west end expand it to mirror more closely the east stands and bring it up to 40,000 and put in new media stuff.

That is the only way I can see it happening for World Cup minimum requirements.

Though honestly get the Argos out put them in a 16,000 seat Lampart and they will feel more successful until they realize they are still the secondary tenant to a team from a British League.

Then we can rebuild the north stands properly.

kodiakTFC
09-18-2017, 06:26 PM
Well first I think the Wolfpack needs to get the City and Liberty Village NIMBY groups to ok a expansion of Lampart Field to about 16,000.. on the condition the Argos can go there. Then we can tear out the south end put in safe standing (if the supporters want it) and put in a new north end that closes in the north west corner and hopefully can take the stadium up to about 35000-36000. Then tear down the upper deck of the west end expand it to mirror more closely the east stands and bring it up to 40,000 and put in new media stuff.

That is the only way I can see it happening for World Cup minimum requirements.

Though honestly get the Argos out put them in a 16,000 seat Lampart and they will feel more successful until they realize they are still the secondary tenant to a team from a British League.

Then we can rebuild the north stands properly.

Lamport.

We're fine with our current capacity. The team is likely very interested in creating some sort of ticket scarcity and lets remember it was what.. maybe three years ago when we had games where maybe 14000 people showed up (not 'distributed attendance'). With that said, the stadium will probably undergo a substantial renovation a couple years leading up to the World Cup. I'd like to see the south end completed gutted and have them develop a steep safe standing section that would actually get a little closer to the roof.

Still blows my damn mind that BMO Field will host World Cup games! I wonder if the stadium name sponsor will be worth significantly more because of it.

spe18
09-18-2017, 07:02 PM
Still blows my damn mind that BMO Field will host World Cup games! I wonder if the stadium name sponsor will be worth significantly more because of it.

Tough to figure out, because the problem is it likely can't be called "BMO Field" during the World Cup itself!

Blindside16
09-18-2017, 11:24 PM
Tough to figure out, because the problem is it likely can't be called "BMO Field" during the World Cup itself!

If they go with what they have done in past World Cups, BMO would just become Toronto during broadcasts. They usual drop the stadium name in passing but the city gets the bigger recognition.

Kaz
09-19-2017, 07:53 AM
Lamport.



I knew Lampart was wrong but I couldn't remember exactly and couldn't be bothered to look it up. Figured it was close that people would understand. :)

The only reason to increase would be because FIFA require 40k minimum for world cup stadiums. If that is require there is no way for Toronto to Host without the increase.


Tough to figure out, because the problem is it likely can't be called "BMO Field" during the World Cup itself!

It would likely just be refered as the National Soccer Stadium as it was in the u20 world cup.

Cas87
09-19-2017, 08:00 AM
I feel as though MLSE would want to keep the permanent part of the BMO stands as is (maybe a few minor adds) only to keep the scarcity of tickets there and the demand up.

For 2026, stadiums are allowed to use some temporary seating to boost capacity to the required levels.

The one example I can find from 2014 in Brazil is the Arena Corinthians. Perm capacity is just over 43,000 and they added 20,000 temp seats to boost their number in order to have the opener, a round of 16 and a semi.
Granted BMO isn't the same size (and for 2026 all knockout games will be in the USA), but the idea can still be used and BMO would only need about 10,000 seats in order to meet requirements.

I say that a 40,000 total (Perm and Temp) seat BMO for Canada v. Who-ever would be better than anything bigger (with a greater potential for unsold seats).

kodiakTFC
09-19-2017, 08:54 AM
I knew Lampart was wrong but I couldn't remember exactly and couldn't be bothered to look it up. Figured it was close that people would understand. :)

The only reason to increase would be because FIFA require 40k minimum for world cup stadiums. If that is require there is no way for Toronto to Host without the increase.



It would likely just be refered as the National Soccer Stadium as it was in the u20 world cup.

Agreed and I'm aware of the 40k minimum. We just don't need 40,000 seats yet. Hopefully, by 2026 this isn't the case and the team could benefit from expanding to 40k.

TFC1154ever
09-19-2017, 09:24 AM
I can see the North End being Reno'ed. 4-5000 to bring it a capacity of 33-34,000. Close the gap on that side, and they can still put the bleachers when needed to get to 40,000. I don't want to see us in a 40,000 stadium with it looking 3/4 full or worse if we're bad. I agree with getting our season ticket waiting list back to respectable. Later down the road when TFC starts closing the gap with the Leafs and Jays, we can always Reno the south and possibly the north again

BelfastBoy
09-19-2017, 10:25 AM
Lets not get ahead of ourselves. There will be nothing in the north-end as long as BMO is used for CFL games - which it will be for the foreseeable future.

TheGoodson
09-19-2017, 11:27 AM
From what I have heard through the grapevine is there is already a plan in place to expand BMO to 40k plus. They just need the official awarding of the world cup to Canada/US/Mexico to be done. Then within a year or so they will potentially start the expansion to gain extra revenue for TFC as the majority of the funding is not from MLSE, it will be from the CSA and all levels of government.

mistercorporate
09-19-2017, 11:30 AM
From what I have heard through the grapevine is there is already a plan in place to expand BMO to 40k plus. They just need the official awarding of the world cup to Canada/US/Mexico to be done. Then within a year or so they will potentially start the expansion to gain extra revenue for TFC as the majority of the funding is not from MLSE, it will be from the CSA and all levels of government.

I must be psychic...I saw this coming from a million miles away, time will tell but it all seems quite logical and the current MLSE brass are quite strategic.

Detroit_TFC
09-19-2017, 02:06 PM
Would think a upper South End deck is certain with any kind of expansion. Perhaps build it with a overhang over the sidewalks outside the current fenceline? Can't see the footprint expanding south unless the road is closed.

redcard
09-19-2017, 02:29 PM
From what I have heard through the grapevine is there is already a plan in place to expand BMO to 40k plus. They just need the official awarding of the world cup to Canada/US/Mexico to be done. Then within a year or so they will potentially start the expansion to gain extra revenue for TFC as the majority of the funding is not from MLSE, it will be from the CSA and all levels of government.

I suppose the West side would be the first to be expanded/renovated to keep up with the East side (suites/concessions). But would expanding the west get the stadium to 40K? I would assume that there must be a retractable North Deck in the cards (especially if they plan of keeping the Argos @ BMO. Unless the Argos are looking at York U or Lamport with the Wolfpack.

Chevy
09-19-2017, 02:32 PM
Tough to figure out, because the problem is it likely can't be called "BMO Field" during the World Cup itself!

Very true. When I watched a U-20 Women's World Cup there, EVERY possible reference to BMO was removed or taped over.

sn0re
09-19-2017, 06:17 PM
From what I have heard through the grapevine is there is already a plan in place to expand BMO to 40k plus. They just need the official awarding of the world cup to Canada/US/Mexico to be done. Then within a year or so they will potentially start the expansion to gain extra revenue for TFC as the majority of the funding is not from MLSE, it will be from the CSA and all levels of government.

Would the government funding also cover the possibility of adding a north canopy? Or will that have to be on the hands of MLSE?

TheGoodson
09-20-2017, 06:51 AM
Would the government funding also cover the possibility of adding a north canopy? Or will that have to be on the hands of MLSE?

I haven't actually seen the drawings yet... But from my understanding is that they would get "x" amount of dollars from the CSA and all levels of government for the renovations. Then MLSE would say we are going to do the following renos and kick in the balance of the monies required.

sn0re
06-18-2022, 09:23 PM
BMO Field 2026 World Cup renders just released. Hoping they can connect the north end with the rest of the bowl. https://www.bmofield.com/events/fifa26

Red CB Toronto
06-18-2022, 09:37 PM
The official rendition photos.

https://scontent-ort2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.15752-9/286593960_430027978712674_1694294407800794036_n.jp g?_nc_cat=103&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=ae9488&_nc_ohc=KScjQ9iyW2AAX-WD-Xk&_nc_ht=scontent-ort2-1.xx&oh=03_AVLNPp5rJJvP9wkQ57erzuK-HAnDVUdGTVo6LGPepV0nUA&oe=62D59315
https://scontent.fybz2-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.15752-9/287597433_785433382870566_1108981695020215479_n.jp g?_nc_cat=100&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=ae9488&_nc_ohc=yinH2mat6nEAX_P_2s2&_nc_ht=scontent.fybz2-1.fna&oh=03_AVJ0sPdydn550kiwYGr86pOv2G82Rqu4PH0Ajc4TZ6t9 Lw&oe=62D593FD

https://scontent-ort2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.15752-9/287064771_980528629288885_883170355884099809_n.jpg ?_nc_cat=103&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=ae9488&_nc_ohc=8O_uNCg-KwMAX_AEjy4&_nc_ht=scontent-ort2-1.xx&oh=03_AVJfdIBUYDaFgGhDCUfGf0hrsP4nkQVwr3fnyo9c06ld wQ&oe=62D3958B

portu
06-18-2022, 09:51 PM
The official rendition photos.

https://scontent-ort2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.15752-9/286593960_430027978712674_1694294407800794036_n.jp g?_nc_cat=103&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=ae9488&_nc_ohc=KScjQ9iyW2AAX-WD-Xk&_nc_ht=scontent-ort2-1.xx&oh=03_AVLNPp5rJJvP9wkQ57erzuK-HAnDVUdGTVo6LGPepV0nUA&oe=62D59315
https://scontent.fybz2-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.15752-9/287597433_785433382870566_1108981695020215479_n.jp g?_nc_cat=100&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=ae9488&_nc_ohc=yinH2mat6nEAX_P_2s2&_nc_ht=scontent.fybz2-1.fna&oh=03_AVJ0sPdydn550kiwYGr86pOv2G82Rqu4PH0Ajc4TZ6t9 Lw&oe=62D593FD

https://scontent-ort2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.15752-9/287064771_980528629288885_883170355884099809_n.jpg ?_nc_cat=103&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=ae9488&_nc_ohc=8O_uNCg-KwMAX_AEjy4&_nc_ht=scontent-ort2-1.xx&oh=03_AVJfdIBUYDaFgGhDCUfGf0hrsP4nkQVwr3fnyo9c06ld wQ&oe=62D3958B
Well that doesn't look nice at all.

Webdogg
06-18-2022, 10:37 PM
Well that doesn't look nice at all.

So having a ticket in row 168 with cars driving under you on Princess blvd isn’t appealing?

benito
06-19-2022, 12:14 AM
I am not sure how much effort was put into these renders. There’s no jumbotron in any of the renders and they look quickly put together.

The South end in the renders are different different from each other too. In one photo, there are windows beneath the temp stands and in the other there are not.

Hopefully, the final design is better or this may be the ugliest stadium to host a WC game in recent years. The budget for reno is $64 million.

Canary10
06-19-2022, 07:53 AM
Those renders are terrible. They shouldn’t have even bothered.

OgtheDim
06-19-2022, 08:30 AM
Yeh, never trust renderings.


Things I see missing that would give us an understanding of what is going on

West side press boxes / press desks (they HAVE to be expanded for the WC)

North side full head on shot or side shot



***

There is a rumour Toronto is in the running for the first game of the WC. Victor M is going to get the backdrop of the BC mountains for the WC draw & then Toronto's skyline & lakeshore views for the first game.

We forget how unique a lakefront stadium is.

*********

I would also note John Tory going on about how Toronto is going to show the world a "show they have never seen before" - he has no clue - other WC venues include cities that do the Super Bowl.

Canary10
06-19-2022, 11:01 AM
Yeh, never trust renderings.


Things I see missing that would give us an understanding of what is going on

West side press boxes / press desks (they HAVE to be expanded for the WC)

North side full head on shot or side shot



***

There is a rumour Toronto is in the running for the first game of the WC. Victor M is going to get the backdrop of the BC mountains for the WC draw & then Toronto's skyline & lakeshore views for the first game.

We forget how unique a lakefront stadium is.

*********

I would also note John Tory going on about how Toronto is going to show the world a "show they have never seen before" - he has no clue - other WC venues include cities that do the Super Bowl.

Renders are supposed to make things look better than they end up in real life to get people excited about the project. Not make it look worse!

Will be interesting if Exhibition Station is in full construction at that point too. We can’t seem to get anything quite right on these kinds of things in Toronto.

Gringo Starr
06-19-2022, 01:12 PM
I wonder if the second hotel and video game theatre will be complete by 2026. Getting to and from games between now and then should be fun with all the construction planned.

Also for the amount of cash being spent on renos and initial construction we could have had a red bulls arena

buddies
06-19-2022, 02:43 PM
I think I was expecting a bit more. Usually Toronto goes over the top for this sort of thing. I thought maybe they'd have put more effort into the north end to finish what they started. If the Argos are staying I thought maybe another canopy and permanent retractable safe standing as a bare minimum. After that I don't care how cheap they went. On the other end of the scale I'd maybe even have cantilevered it over the north end and attach it to the food building for an indoor fan expo/media centre/or player warmup area type of thing and dress it up a bit for foreigners coming off the train.

I think it would have been nice to get a permanent World Cup legacy piece out of this (north end upgrade) but the renderings leave me a little underwhelmed :(

RealG-TFC
06-19-2022, 03:31 PM
Until there's a development application, I wouldn't put too much faith into this

OgtheDim
06-19-2022, 05:22 PM
Until there's a development application, I wouldn't put too much faith into this

Oh plans are long past the application stage



https://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2022/ex/bgrd/backgroundfile-222930.pdf



2024
• Capital construction at Stadium commences
• Provide update to Council through the 2025 budget process
2025
• Capital construction at Training Sites and BMO Field commences
• Temporary seating expansion installation commences at Stadium (impacts on Exhibition Place service capacity until post-World Cup)

SoccMan2
06-19-2022, 06:41 PM
So it’s a sure thing this expansion will be just temporary stands ? If that’s the case why bother, give all the games to Vancouver and let it be. I was hoping for a permanent expansion and upgrade not some temporary fix for the worlds biggest sporting event. A lost opportunity if this expansion is all temporary seating . A complete joke if this is the case.

Oldtimer
06-19-2022, 07:07 PM
So it’s a sure thing this expansion will be just temporary stands ? If that’s the case why bother, give all the games to Vancouver and let it be. I was hoping for a permanent expansion and upgrade not some temporary fix for the worlds biggest sporting event. A lost opportunity if this expansion is all temporary seating . A complete joke if this is the case.

I respectfully disagree.
I care about the World Cup for much more than increased stadium capacity.

There's no advantage to extra capacity unless the current stadium is constantly sold out, which it isn't. All unused extra capacity does is to kill atmosphere.

reggie
06-19-2022, 07:24 PM
who know with BS BILL,he said a few months ago with the world cup coming the club wants to take advantage ,spent big on players,sell more seats 40k increase revenue,he also said we were getting safe standing stands a few years ago and we we wouldnt notice that the argos are playing at bmo,

leedsandTFC
06-19-2022, 08:17 PM
So it’s a sure thing this expansion will be just temporary stands ? If that’s the case why bother, give all the games to Vancouver and let it be. I was hoping for a permanent expansion and upgrade not some temporary fix for the worlds biggest sporting event. A lost opportunity if this expansion is all temporary seating . A complete joke if this is the case.

didn't bill manning recently say that the goal is to grow the club so the demand is there in 2026 to make the extra seating permanent?

los sonadores
06-19-2022, 08:35 PM
Renders are supposed to make things look better than they end up in real life to get people excited about the project. Not make it look worse!

Will be interesting if Exhibition Station is in full construction at that point too. We can’t seem to get anything quite right on these kinds of things in Toronto.

Since the 1960’s it’s been recognized that the most grand Toronto buildings/building projects are the ones planned but never built. Our current stadium was not even planned and so I’m not expecting much. All the same, even in her first year of the rickety, tin can stadium it was good to attend a match.

nick.mastro
06-20-2022, 07:53 AM
If we're not adding permanent seating to the north end, atleast complete a permanent roof. It'll make the stadium look so much better with that alone. If im not mistaken those were part of the original expansion plans, but it never happened. Design: BMO Field – StadiumDB.com (http://stadiumdb.com/designs/can/bmo_field)

barticusz
06-20-2022, 08:14 PM
Here (https://www.bmofield.com/events/fifa26) are some images on what the proposed improvements to BMo will look like.

SoccMan2
06-20-2022, 08:31 PM
I’ll say it again Toronto supposedly a world class city lol, we will have the worst stadium in 2026 , basically an American high school football stadium with temporary bleachers hosting a World Cup . Save face and pull out now if they are not doing this renovation right.

noimpactinmtl
06-20-2022, 08:45 PM
I’ll say it again Toronto supposedly a world class city lol, we will have the worst stadium in 2026 , basically an American high school football stadium with temporary bleachers hosting a World Cup . Save face and pull out now if they are not doing this renovation right.

None of the stadiums for 2026 are perfect. Most are NFL stadiums designed for the NFL (tailgating, artificial turf) and not for football. The best part about BMO Field is that it's one of the few stadiums on the list that's actually built for football and relatively centrally located with a vibrant bar life in Liberty Village (to the chagrin of residents during match days) and good public transit access.

Now I will grant you really mean that we're the worst stadium for TV, and that would be true, since MLS is nowhere near the same calibur of leagues as Top 5 UEFA leagues.

Gringo Starr
06-20-2022, 09:00 PM
With the enercare centre and the Ricoh coliseum and even the concert venues at Ontario place they should be able to create a lot of added events around the stadium, make it one huge World Cup event space that is one thing BMO has going for it

OgtheDim
06-20-2022, 09:27 PM
With the enercare centre and the Ricoh coliseum and even the concert venues at Ontario place they should be able to create a lot of added events around the stadium, make it one huge World Cup event space that is one thing BMO has going for it

The city is required to provide a "a 34 day FIFA FanFest"

Richard
06-21-2022, 04:54 PM
None of the stadiums for 2026 are perfect. Most are NFL stadiums designed for the NFL (tailgating, artificial turf) and not for football. The best part about BMO Field is that it's one of the few stadiums on the list that's actually built for football and relatively centrally located with a vibrant bar life in Liberty Village (to the chagrin of residents during match days) and good public transit access.

Now I will grant you really mean that we're the worst stadium for TV, and that would be true, since MLS is nowhere near the same calibur of leagues as Top 5 UEFA leagues.

I think you need to take a look at this video.

BMO field is by far the worst stadium to host a world cup game, its an embarrassment.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31xgdwiRpHU

CorrwgBach
06-21-2022, 07:03 PM
I think you need to take a look at this video.

BMO field is by far the worst stadium to host a world cup game, its an embarrassment.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31xgdwiRpHU

I like football to be played on grass so for me the first 3 and the last one are the best.

Really a World Cup game at foxbourgh. That’s an embarrassment.

But it would be good to use this to complete BMO and make the North end less bleak.

OgtheDim
06-21-2022, 07:05 PM
BMO is the only actual football stadium among north of Mexico in that group

BMO is NEVER an embarassment compared to NFL & CFL domes.

Its our house, and I for one welcome its weirdness.

barticusz
06-21-2022, 07:38 PM
BMO is the only actual football stadium among north of Mexico in that group

BMO is NEVER an embarassment compared to NFL & CFL domes.

Its our house, and I for one welcome its weirdness.

Going to have to disagree. Would love to see this look good but the images are already poor and you know the final product is rarely as shown in concepts. This is the World Cup and we’re brining people to a frankenstadium in the biggest City in Canada, that’s embarrassing. Also those sight lights from the south end look pretty terrible with the roof obstructing the view.

I think it’s ok to want to show off and have infrastructure that is impressive and leading edge as opposed to being just good enough.

nick.mastro
06-21-2022, 07:48 PM
BMO is the only actual football stadium among north of Mexico in that group

BMO is NEVER an embarassment compared to NFL & CFL domes.

Its our house, and I for one welcome its weirdness.

And CFL stadium …unfortunately

Lil'John
06-21-2022, 08:01 PM
I wonder if the second hotel and video game theatre will be complete by 2026. Getting to and from games between now and then should be fun with all the construction planned.

Also for the amount of cash being spent on renos and initial construction we could have had a red bulls arena

Yeah. I was there on Saturday. It's a fantastic stadium.

Richard
06-21-2022, 08:12 PM
Just because BMO field is the only soccer specific stadium does not make it better than any of the NFL stadiums. BMO field is for MLS 1.0, not world cup, tear it down and build a proper stadium.

OgtheDim
06-21-2022, 08:34 PM
No way I would want to be in an NFL stadium for soccer.

AND, MLS 1.0 IS NFL stadiums (and baseball fields).


I LIKE our quirky stadium with its weird angles & view of the city & the lake. Yup, its got issues, with cracks and the north end.

But its not a dump.

TFC1986
06-21-2022, 09:30 PM
I heard the way it is now, makes it classify as an open stadium. Which means more relaxed fire code rules.
If all corners were filled with seating. It wouldn't be consider open stadium in Ontario fire code

Oldtimer
06-22-2022, 08:24 AM
Just because BMO field is the only soccer specific stadium does not make it better than any of the NFL stadiums. BMO field is for MLS 1.0, not world cup, tear it down and build a proper stadium.


No way I would want to be in an NFL stadium for soccer.

AND, MLS 1.0 IS NFL stadiums (and baseball fields).


I LIKE our quirky stadium with its weird angles & view of the city & the lake. Yup, its got issues, with cracks and the north end.

But its not a dump.


BMO is MLS 2.0. OK, so we're at MLS 3.0 now and it's not the flashiest... but Richard have you ever been to Stade Saputo? BMO Field looks like a palace by comparison.

TFC1986
06-22-2022, 08:33 AM
Haha Stade Saputo is MLS 1.5
Although I did enjoy it the one time I went...
However if I was a season seat holder I wouldn't enjoy it as I do BMO field and it's surrounding area

Lil'John
06-22-2022, 10:10 AM
BMO is MLS 2.0. OK, so we're at MLS 3.0 now and it's not the flashiest... but Richard have you ever been to Stade Saputo? BMO Field looks like a palace by comparison.

Not sure I agree. Three of their four sides are together, with there just being a gap beside the away end.
We have 4 (3) entirely separate stands. Now I know that this is quite common in the UK, but you have to fill in the ends of the stands with a translucent material which lets i the light but not the wind and rain.
We were at DC the other day - that's a really quirky stadium.

Oldtimer
06-22-2022, 10:50 AM
Not sure I agree. Three of their four sides are together, with there just being a gap beside the away end.
We have 4 (3) entirely separate stands. Now I know that this is quite common in the UK, but you have to fill in the ends of the stands with a translucent material which lets i the light but not the wind and rain.
We were at DC the other day - that's a really quirky stadium.

With State Saputo the facilities (food, washrooms, etc) are really sub-par. You don't see that on TV, but trust me it's not great. Joey Saputo built it on a really tight budget and it shows.

DC's current stadium may be "quirky" but when they were at RFK it was league-renowned as being a dump. It even featured as a dystopian picture in a non-soccer related book I read years ago (a side-story had the lead character take in a DC United game). That stadium was demolished when they left. I was happy for them when they got their new place.

Redcoe15
06-22-2022, 10:51 AM
BMO is MLS 2.0. OK, so we're at MLS 3.0 now and it's not the flashiest... but Richard have you ever been to Stade Saputo? BMO Field looks like a palace by comparison.
The stadium with the giant porta potties? No thanks, not going back to that glorified tin can in the future!

buddies
06-22-2022, 11:02 AM
Not sure I agree. Three of their four sides are together, with there just being a gap beside the away end.
We have 4 (3) entirely separate stands. Now I know that this is quite common in the UK, but you have to fill in the ends of the stands with a translucent material which lets i the light but not the wind and rain.
We were at DC the other day - that's a really quirky stadium.

Keeps the sound in too. Makes the place louder. The roofs over our stands do none of that. Should have been built for sound amplification for a bit more atmosphere. As for the one in the south end I have no idea wtf that thing is for. It barely covers the existing seats. Should have gone right to the back of the concourse. When they add the seats for the world cup it's going to look stupid and cheap just like it did when they had the outdoor Leaf game and that beauty cup game against Montreal.

All I can say is it's very disappointing that they're going to spend all of that money for 2026 and throw it all away after. What a feckin waste! It just would've been nice to get a legacy feature out of the world cup ... for example another undersized stupid looking roof in the north that sits way to high in the air or enclose the ends of the existing stands to keep the sound in. I'd even settle for a few more washrooms.

Auzzy
06-22-2022, 11:43 AM
The level of grumpiness is a bit astounding.

I was at BMO before and after the roof. It DOES help alot with the sound. At least on the east & west side; not so sure about the south.

I like the way the stadium looks. Yeah hopefully they do something good in the north end. I bet the west side will be fixed up as well.

Does anyone know if they will be putting temporary grass in all those plastic turf NFL stadiums?

You know what I like? That we're not giving multi-billionaires billions of dollars to build fancy stadiums for 5 WC games, and for them to make their money the rest of the time. (Or in the case of a dedicated MLS stadium, to sit mostly empty. Nobody is selling out NFL-sized stadiums for footy outside of the WC. I believe even the Atlanta attendance has dropped a great deal.) Yeah there are lots of problems in Canada as well, but not that bad. Look around the world, the "legacy" of many past Word Cups and Olympics is just dismal. Just an astounding waste of money when there are FAR bigger problems to deal with.

People seem to forget the "beautiful" Ekaterinburg stadium expansion for the WC. There have been some other doozies over the years.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-5782369/Temporary-stand-Ekaterinburg-Arena-completed-World-Cup.html

PS Oh and by the way, the open-air stadiums that are completely closed around the sides are disgusting on a day like today, both for fans and players. It's nice to have some airflow.

Richard
06-22-2022, 12:28 PM
You know what I like? That we're not giving multi-billionaires billions of dollars to build fancy stadiums for 5 WC games, and for them to make their money the rest of the time. (Or in the case of a dedicated MLS stadium, to sit mostly empty. Nobody is selling out NFL-sized stadiums for footy outside of the WC. I believe even the Atlanta attendance has dropped a great deal.) Yeah there are lots of problems in Canada as well, but not that bad. Look around the world, the "legacy" of many past Word Cups and Olympics is just dismal. Just an astounding waste of money when there are FAR bigger problems to deal with.



Canada does not have a single modern world class outdoor sports facility. Not one. That's an embarrassment.

The World Cup was award in 2018-2020. During these years there should have been a concerted effort to build a landmark stadium similar to a Wembley in UK but in Canada, maybe not as cavernous but somewhat smaller scope.

Instead we are going to get a 45K BMO field that look's bad as a showpiece for the city and taken apart.

To those complaining about empty seats at TFC games, where is the ambition? If you do not build the capacity you will never have the opportunity to expand and reach the potential. We will always be stuck with limited potential.

In 2007 many investors did not see the potential in soccer so I understand why BMO is the way it is, but the league has moved one, new TV deals. It's time TFC start fulfilling its potential.

TFC1986
06-22-2022, 12:46 PM
And MLS won't be on linear tv in future.
MLS signed deal stream deal with apple tv and DAZN.
Disappointed in MLS greed as I'm not a tv streamer.
But the investor now get more money, so they can afford empty seats

glaze
06-22-2022, 01:07 PM
For the World Cup, the Dome was a better choice. Bring in grass, create modified endzones to bring fans closer to pitxh. Seats more, has the boxes, better concourses, better transit, etc. BMO couldve been a training ground.
The issues with BMO is a permanent expansion isnt needed for TFC or the Argos. So we're stuck with temp stands for the world cup. The west concourse needs a total overhaul, probably need better VIP areas, and a new press box and video board. Not to mention public transit connections, a solution to the tunnel etc.
I strongly doubt we will only get 2 huge temp stands as indicated by the pictures released.

Canary10
06-22-2022, 01:13 PM
For the World Cup, the Dome was a better choice. Bring in grass, create modified endzones to bring fans closer to pitxh. Seats more, has the boxes, better concourses, better transit, etc. BMO couldve been a training ground.
The issues with BMO is a permanent expansion isnt needed for TFC or the Argos. So we're stuck with temp stands for the world cup. The west concourse needs a total overhaul, probably need better VIP areas, and a new press box and video board. Not to mention public transit connections, a solution to the tunnel etc.
I strongly doubt we will only get 2 huge temp stands as indicated by the pictures released.

Transit there is pretty good. The province needs to get Exhibition Station at least built in time for it though. That will solve the tunnel issues and at least make the GO a better experience.

For reference here's what is planned:

https://blog.metrolinx.com/2022/03/27/ontario-line-subway-project-breaks-ground-at-exhibition-station-see-the-new-renderings-released/

sn0re
06-23-2022, 01:15 PM
More renderings of BMO for people that haven't seen it. https://www.bmofield.com/assets/doc/BMO-Field-FIFA-Renderings_2022-d459387ee4.pdf

Ultra & Proud
06-23-2022, 02:06 PM
More renderings of BMO for people that haven't seen it. https://www.bmofield.com/assets/doc/BMO-Field-FIFA-Renderings_2022-d459387ee4.pdf
Looking at the south end new set of bleachers, it doesn't look like they would be temp. There's some king of structure at the bottom that goes as high as the current concourse. Unless the stands would be sitting temporary on top of that newly build structure and would be removed possibly making a large south end "beer garden" like area.

Canary10
06-23-2022, 02:27 PM
Looking at the south end new set of bleachers, it doesn't look like they would be temp. There's some king of structure at the bottom that goes as high as the current concourse. Unless the stands would be sitting temporary on top of that newly build structure and would be removed possibly making a large south end "beer garden" like area.

Isn't that essentially how it was built in 2016? Or whenever that was (I can't even remember the year now, I think it was in place for our first MLS Cup Final)?

Canary10
06-23-2022, 02:28 PM
More renderings of BMO for people that haven't seen it. https://www.bmofield.com/assets/doc/BMO-Field-FIFA-Renderings_2022-d459387ee4.pdf

Thanks, that was a good find!

I'm still not convinced by the stadium, but the whole area will make a great fan fest zone. Very exciting!

OgtheDim
06-23-2022, 02:57 PM
That North side, with the space for the football field, looks more permanent - the one drawing with a concourse level adds to the effect.

10K on the south - 7.754K on the north.

Ultra & Proud
06-23-2022, 03:14 PM
Isn't that essentially how it was built in 2016? Or whenever that was (I can't even remember the year now, I think it was in place for our first MLS Cup Final)?
Sort of but that was just scaffolding with flag / tarp material draped over it. I heard a few people say it definitely won't be just a scaffold skeleton with plastic seats on top but who knows?

I still think MLSE will try to squeeze more money from the government to avoid embarrassment or try to wrangle something for them, like being allowed to build a condo where the Food Building is in exchange for going all out on the stadium. One thing I know about MLSE is that they like to show off and flaunt. This rendering and whole plan doesn't have the "show off-ness" I would have expected from them with an event of this magnitude on the world's stage.

Canary10
06-23-2022, 03:21 PM
Sort of but that was just scaffolding with flag / tarp material draped over it. I heard a few people say it definitely won't be just a scaffold skeleton with plastic seats on top but who knows?

I still think MLSE will try to squeeze more money from the government to avoid embarrassment or try to wrangle something for them, like being allowed to build a condo where the Food Building is in exchange for going all out on the stadium. One thing I know about MLSE is that they like to show off and flaunt. This rendering and whole plan doesn't have the "show off-ness" I would have expected from them with an event of this magnitude on the world's stage.

I think those renders Snore posted are the plan. There really isn't much more they can do than this in four years. If the north end was permanent, steep, and if they could add the same roof, I think it would be great for us. It's never going to compare with what they've built in Qatar, but maybe having already existing, lower key stadiums that weren't built on slave labour and thousands of deaths is appealing in itself?

reggie
06-23-2022, 03:28 PM
is it possible they could change the north or the south end to a safe standing stand down the road

sn0re
06-23-2022, 04:16 PM
That North side, with the space for the football field, looks more permanent - the one drawing with a concourse level adds to the effect.

10K on the south - 7.754K on the north.


The rendering shows that video board removed. I guess It has to be permanent if they are willing to remove that screen. Let’s just hope that a roof is in the works.

nick.mastro
06-23-2022, 05:19 PM
The rendering shows that video board removed. I guess It has to be permanent if they are willing to remove that screen. Let’s just hope that a roof is in the works.

I agree with you. I really hope the lower bowl part of the north end is permanent and a roof on top would make bmo look amazing

I also thought for sure they would add more boxes on the west side to complete the top

sn0re
06-23-2022, 06:22 PM
Thanks, that was a good find!

I'm still not convinced by the stadium, but the whole area will make a great fan fest zone. Very exciting!

The water mark does say it’s preliminary so it’s not final. I just hope someone is willing to bust Bill Manning’s balls and ask some serious questions about the future of the stadium beyond ‘26. Safe standing? Permanent north stands with roof? More toilets? Yes please.

Auzzy
06-23-2022, 06:22 PM
One thing MLSE really likes to do is NOT be the sole builder/owner of stadiums and other facilities.

They let the Raptors build the ACC - now Scotiabank Centre - then bought the Raptors together with the arena, and made minor changes, so the primary colour scheme was still Raptors (and some details of the arena were not ideal for hockey).

Coca-Cola Coliseum (former Ricoh) was built by the City / CNE, then renovated extensively for hockey by the City and an investment firm (Borealis). MLSE only leases it for the Marlies, bringing a return for the investors.

MLSE built and owns the OVO Athletic Centre, but it's located on leased public land, and the City will take ownership of the building after 20 years. In addition, as part of the deal, the facility is available for community use during the majority of daytime and evening hours. People know how much land near downtown Toronto is worth.

MLSE let somebody else be the primary builder of an inexpensive BMO Field, contributed a bit to the construction costs, and got management & usage rights for the stadium in return. The City owns it. MLSE invested more in BMO Field at other times, always in smaller increments, and always for specific purposes and specific benefits. Expansion for the WC will again be a mishmash of funding and responsibilities -- and as always, with low risk for MLSE.

Every other facility used by MLSE and its teams has similar complicated terms of construction, ownership, lease, usage, management, etc: Ford Performance Centre; BMO Training Ground & Academy; Lamport (training ground for the Argos). (They started managing the GM Centre in Oshawa but terminated that deal, and no longer want to be involved with managing facilities that their teams don't use.)

W/o getting into details, every one of these arrangements seems to be a reasonably good deal for the public, as well providing decent facilities in relatively good locations, at a low risk for MLSE and the public entities involved. A MUCH worse deal for the public was the Dome. (BTW the Dome can no longer be used for soccer due to a number of reasons, especially not for many weeks in the middle of the summer.)

There is no "investor" that wants to plunk down a bunch of money to build an awesome WC stadium in Canada. Especially when you consider cost of land at a good location (unlike the really, really awful locations of most of those beautiful NFL stadiums). MLSE could do it, if they wanted to, but that's not their style. No Cdn public body is going to blow billions (incl. land) to build something like that in an accessible spot. Have a look at the real public value and "legacy" of most US stadiums, especially the newer and more expensive ones: it's actually a disaster and primarily welfare for the ultra-rich. Have a look at the legacy of the Big Owe and other spots.

The situation overseas varies a great deal from city to city. And in no case do you have a footy stadium competing with stadiums and arenas in four other professional sports leagues, that are each the best in their sport worldwide. BTW many folks are already grumbling about the other costs of the 2026 WC to the public, which run into hundreds of millions of dollars, all for 10 games. I certainly think that money is worth it; I'm hoping for at least few long-term benefits; but I don't want the public to pay much more for the sport I love. We've got MUCH MUCH bigger problems in the year 2022.


PS and if footy goes bonkers in Canada in the future, you can still build something better, according to the need at the time. So far the City is still holding on to Exhibition Place. You could put something big in the parking lot south of where BMO Field is now, and tear down the tin can BMO w/o too much hassle. You could also build something big at Downsview, especially now that there's both a subway and a GO Train through there.

Mr. Inbetween
09-02-2022, 06:04 PM
Those Spainards and Germans!
Santiago Bernabeu renovation.
Wow! Many feats on this project.
And I thought the likes of Mercedes Benz/Atlanta, Tottenham Hotspur Stadium/London and SoFi Stadium/Inglewood-LA were among the exceptional...
Add this latest to that chain...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=epef95O-EwY

Ahhh... to dream an impossible dream... for BMO.

Richard
09-02-2022, 06:36 PM
Those Spainards and Germans!
Santiago Bernabeu renovation.
Wow! Many feats on this project.
And I thought the likes of Mercedes Benz/Atlanta, Tottenham Hotspur Stadium/London and SoFi Stadium/Inglewood-LA were among the exceptional...
Add this latest to that chain...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=epef95O-EwY

Ahhh... to dream an impossible dream... for BMO.

Beautiful stadium. Defiantly something to add on the bucket list.

Eastend
09-04-2022, 10:36 AM
The BMO expansion plans are awful. I hope common sense prevails and a proper reno/upgrade is done. 4 years is more then enough time to do it right.

nick.mastro
09-04-2022, 10:44 AM
It will never happen as long as the Argos are there ! I think that’s even a main reason why we don’t have a roof on the North end. I think it can’t happen with a CFL game

JoesphNdo
09-04-2022, 10:54 AM
It will never happen as long as the Argos are there ! I think that’s even a main reason why we don’t have a roof on the North end. I think it can’t happen with a CFL game

I really fail to see the connection between the argos and how disappointing the expansion stuff is

I'm mainly salty that Manning keeps promising safe standing randomly every few years then just not mentioning it again until the next time

Canary10
11-15-2022, 02:37 PM
The work they are doing at Anfield at the moment is pretty interesting. They're building a new roof right over the old, which is supposed to come down during the World Cup, and expanding their Anfield Road end in behind the old stands. I really wish this was the approach we were following for the BMO expansion for the World Cup. A proper, permanent north end expansion at the very least.

https://www.thisisanfield.com/2022/11/13-new-photos-of-liverpools-anfield-road-end-expansion-ahead-of-next-phase/

Mr. Inbetween
01-26-2023, 06:32 PM
The Bread Not Circuses 2.0 discussion has begun...

https://torontosun.com/opinion/columnists/jay-goldberg-ford-is-skeptical-about-fifa-and-hes-right

Section 223
01-27-2023, 08:16 AM
The Bread Not Circuses 2.0 discussion has begun...

https://torontosun.com/opinion/columnists/jay-goldberg-ford-is-skeptical-about-fifa-and-hes-right
Not to the same extent as the Brazil olympics but I see a future white elephant in a BMO stadium expansion. We love this as soccer fans but why burden the tax paying public so that soccer diehards like ourselves can enjoy just 5 World Cup games

FootBallAZ
01-27-2023, 09:02 AM
Not to the same extent as the Brazil olympics but I see a future white elephant in a BMO stadium expansion. We love this as soccer fans but why burden the tax paying public so that soccer diehards like ourselves can enjoy just 5 World Cup games


is the 5 games confirmed for BMO?

-read the article- does anyone know will BMO only get 1 canada game- while Vancouver gets the other?

RealG-TFC
01-27-2023, 09:04 AM
I believe Canada hosting 10 is confirmed, so and equal split with Vancouver makes that 5 games each

EDIT: As I understand it, this figure was from the working plan of having 3-team groups and a total of 80 matches. It was rumoured that FIFA was reconsidering 3-team groups. Groups of 4 would result in more group stage matches.

Section 223
01-27-2023, 09:47 AM
I believe Canada hosting 10 is confirmed, so and equal split with Vancouver makes that 5 games each

EDIT: As I understand it, this figure was from the working plan of having 3-team groups and a total of 80 matches. It was rumoured that FIFA was reconsidering 3-team groups. Groups of 4 would result in more group stage matches.
Quite a pricey ask of the tax payer for only one Canafa match in Toronto

Canary10
01-27-2023, 10:00 AM
Quite a pricey ask of the tax payer for only one Canafa match in Toronto

There is a definitely a debate to be had whether it's worth it. Tory did win re-election handily, and never made a secret of his support for the World Cup in Toronto. So there's that. A lot of the seating to bring BMO up to World Cup capacity will be temporary (unfortunately), so this is never going to end up like a ski jumping facility in Sarajevo. Also this come with waaayyyy less risk than the Vancouver Olympics. If we're going to be a part of a big event, this is actually the lowest risk way to do it tbh.

OgtheDim
01-27-2023, 01:27 PM
The Bread Not Circuses 2.0 discussion has begun...

https://torontosun.com/opinion/columnists/jay-goldberg-ford-is-skeptical-about-fifa-and-hes-right

Just to clarify, that is coming from an organization that is more "don't spend a single $ on anything we don't want"

Bread for people has nothing to do with it.

Canary10
01-27-2023, 02:40 PM
Just to clarify, that is coming from an organization that is more "don't spend a single $ on anything we don't want"

Bread for people has nothing to do with it.

This is true!

Bushmancan
01-27-2023, 04:49 PM
How much of the $307M is throw away and how much is it for infrastructure that Liberty Village, the exhibition, BMO Field etc, etc, is going to benefit from. It is a dangerous joke (it is fun though) that we still should be going through the tunnel.

As it pertains to 1 Canada game, I will go to all 5 games, in fact if I can get seats to a couple of the US venues, I am there. Lets just say we get lucky and get a group with Brazil or Italy (not in our group of course), the city will be a mad house and the tickets will be impossible to get.

There is a ton of money the Municipal and Provincial Govt’s waste money on, why not as a tax payer cant it be argued for upgrading the whole infrastructure down there. I know there are strong arguments for social programs, which need support, no doubt.

But there is also a ton of fat, that they could remove before this.

I can be you one thing for certain, whether PC/LIB or NDP funds it or not, you can guarantee, they will find a way to be guests at the games.

Canary10
01-27-2023, 04:58 PM
How much of the $307M is throw away and how much is it for infrastructure that Liberty Village, the exhibition, BMO Field etc, etc, is going to benefit from. It is a dangerous joke (it is fun though) that we still should be going through the tunnel.

As it pertains to 1 Canada game, I will go to all 5 games, in fact if I can get seats to a couple of the US venues, I am there. Lets just say we get lucky and get a group with Brazil or Italy (not in our group of course), the city will be a mad house and the tickets will be impossible to get.

There is a ton of money the Municipal and Provincial Govt’s waste money on, why not as a tax payer cant it be argued for upgrading the whole infrastructure down there. I know there are strong arguments for social programs, which need support, no doubt.

But there is also a ton of fat, that they could remove before this.

I can be you one thing for certain, whether PC/LIB or NDP funds it or not, you can guarantee, they will find a way to be guests at the games.

There's already a plan to build a new Exhibition Station there as part of the Ontario Line. If we were smart, we'd fast track building that (I think some early works have already been done, or are in the process). Maybe some of the FIFA funding could even support that project. It would be stupid if we couldn't get that station done in time, even if the Ontario Line isn't running yet (which it won't). That would solve the tunnel problem and provide better Go access there.

Mr. Inbetween
01-27-2023, 06:21 PM
Just to clarify, that is coming from an organization that is more "don't spend a single $ on anything we don't want"

Bread for people has nothing to do with it.


This is true!

Sure. Just to clarify further. The reference made was itself more as an ironic satirical citation to Roman Poet Juvenal from which their name and intentions were seemingly 'inspired' from; hence the '2.0' addendum. Something that most people could/would relate to. Respect to that actual organization's historical significance. I knew the article's author was Goldberg- Director- CTF. I would argue they are more of a 'don't spend a single $ on anything frivolous/unnecessary' more than a 'we don't want' organization; that notion would be akin to Italian Socialists... 'what is mine is mine and what is yours is ours'. Oddly, later versions of that movement, like NoTO2024, have involved less of the 'professional protestors' and more left and right everydayers-taxpayers including Bay Street types. I would certainly argue that economic and social conditions- wages, inflation, crime, heath care, resources for or access to mental and addiction services, etc... in and around Toronto today are more precarious and likely necessary of attention than ever, even against 30 year ago comparisons. And warrant any emphasis to 'Bread'; just visit any city Food Bank. 'Toronto The Good' has an underbelly; you just need to want to look carefully.

My explanation aside. I still support this initiative. I do not think the investment and expenditure is excessive nor would be detrimental to our Municipal or Provincial Finances; if managed and executed competently.

wopchop
02-01-2023, 07:04 PM
A lot of the $300MM is throw-away.


The cost to temporarily expand BMO capacity is $25MM. Centennial Park & Sunnybrook Park need $15MM for upgrades. There is $40MM earmarked to "upgrade and enhance facilities that will be used as competition, training, and festival venues during the 2026 World Cup period".

I could not find the security costs in the City report, but I imagine that is a huge portion of the $300MM. It is probably the majority of the cost.

Security for the G20 cost $605MM for reference, which was security ~10 days.

Mr. Inbetween
02-10-2023, 10:02 PM
FIFA WC26, BMO Field expansion/facility updates, Toronto City Council support... the bombshell's fallout... the politics... just got interesting; no more steady as she goes... let the chaos begin and reign. It may turn into a turf war now; a hot potato issue. With realpolitik implications for MLSE/TFC.

Oh boy. Oh no, say it ain't so. The fall-out of this developing matter may have collateral implications. Seems MLSE, possibly the Rogers faction, may be unwitting participants in this bombshell. Seems one of this story's two subjects were, either self- or by another conveniently, extracted out of the situation and into a new job there.

Mr. Inbetween
02-14-2023, 09:44 AM
Interesting graphic of WC26 match locations for the visually inclined...

https://twitter.com/panchoclaussen/status/1625126988347310083

Kamp Berg
02-14-2023, 09:56 AM
Interesting graphic of WC26 match locations for the visually inclined...

https://twitter.com/panchoclaussen/status/1625126988347310083

When did Toronto move into the middle of Lake Huron?

sn0re
02-14-2023, 11:05 PM
Looks like there's a new North bench


https://i.redd.it/8ykh0vrcg6ia1.png

nick.mastro
02-15-2023, 09:51 AM
They need to get rid of that general admission and just have a retractable North bench for games. Would look so much better

Mr. Inbetween
02-15-2023, 04:45 PM
They need to get rid of that general admission and just have a retractable North bench for games. Would look so much better

I would not be surprised if for now a few of the minds in the TFC organization may equate the 'General Admission Area' as a 'Safe Standing Space'. :)

nick.mastro
02-15-2023, 08:47 PM
I would not be surprised if for now a few of the minds in the TFC organization may equate the 'General Admission Area' as a 'Safe Standing Space'. :)

Would not be surprised. It would even look nicer with the red seats, section 130 to just continue across to 101

sn0re
02-15-2023, 10:23 PM
I would not be surprised if for now a few of the minds in the TFC organization may equate the 'General Admission Area' as a 'Safe Standing Space'. :)

5 years and still waiting on south end safe standing

OgtheDim
02-25-2023, 08:19 AM
This tidbit from the Molinaro interview with Manning

https://www.tfcrepublic.ca/tfc-mls-bill-manning/



When do the renovations to BMO Field for the 2026 World Cup begin to take place?
Likely not until the year before. There’s still a lot of planning for how we can enhance the size of the stadium to meet FIFA requirements. There’ll be some different modifications to BMO Field. But none of that happens until 2025.

Mr. Inbetween
03-11-2023, 08:04 AM
https://twitter.com/Drifty_Wolf/status/1634410983211802624

OgtheDim
03-11-2023, 08:14 AM
The interpretation that the north end needed to go or TFC would have been kicked out is revisionism.

At the time, it was not 100% certain the Argos would go to BMO - however, it was 100% certain TFC would stay.

That having been said, there is a way of having a full north end without using the CFL endzone - but that would require the land north of the current stadium gates between the stadium & the food building.

I would note we have yet to see any renderings of what the stadium will look like for the World Cup. And Manning indicated nothing would be going on in that regard until 2025. I expect Russia 18 style seating.

JoesphNdo
03-11-2023, 09:41 AM
Why is it we are fine on the south end with those rows of seats that can be retracted but couldn't make it work on the north end? I don't buy that as a reason at all. We've a tendency to want to blame the Argos for everything for some reason but this doesn't make any sense to me. We've proven we know how to do this on the south end, have we not? So if we wanted too, we could have a north end and it would work. Is there a part I'm missing?

Mr. Inbetween
03-11-2023, 09:51 AM
The interpretation that the north end needed to go or TFC would have been kicked out is revisionism. At the time, it was not 100% certain the Argos would go to BMO - however, it was 100% certain TFC would stay. That having been said, there is a way of having a full north end without using the CFL endzone - but that would require the land north of the current stadium gates between the stadium & the food building. I would note we have yet to see any renderings of what the stadium will look like for the World Cup. And Manning indicated nothing would be going on in that regard until 2025. I expect Russia 18 style seating.

Yes, no, maybe... on the revisionism. IIRC, there was no ideal/public clarity on the matter; rather lots of speculation and obfuscation going on. The latter by whom? Most likely MLSE; the entity to benefit most from such murkiness. Still, at that time, one of several prevalent suspicions was there was municipal council- board/s- CNE votes tied to any BMO expansion/upgrade that apparently hinged on the political desire of some that the CFL/Argo's stay in Toronto-downtown; ergo to be eventually folded structurally- facility, operations and/or ownership- wise somehow into the MLSE 'family'. I will concede this was convenient 'cover' for MLSE against supporter backlash. However, if there was indeed a 'backroom deal' to the matter, than the only leverage against MLSE was not to cooperate with/grant support for their expansion/upgrade plans. So, yes, not kicked out, but MLSE, their TFC business, would have been stymied and they would have eventually needed to move; so forced to leave... kicked out?

Mr. Inbetween
03-11-2023, 10:03 AM
Why is it we are fine on the south end with those rows of seats that can be retracted but couldn't make it work on the north end? I don't buy that as a reason at all. We've a tendency to want to blame the Argos for everything for some reason but this doesn't make any sense to me. We've proven we know how to do this on the south end, have we not? So if we wanted too, we could have a north end and it would work. Is there a part I'm missing?

It may cost an arm and a leg... politically and financially... since, as OtG correctly suggests, MLSE/TFC 'would require the land north of the current stadium gates between the stadium & the food building'. IIUC, MLSE does not 'own' the stadium, certainly not the land it is on; they just run the facility for the city. For or giving up, depending on the perspective, 'a piece of the action/pie'. MLSE/TFC would have to renegotiate that deal with the city; likely not to their favour and for a pound of flesh.

Bushmancan
03-11-2023, 10:52 AM
The interpretation that the north end needed to go or TFC would have been kicked out is revisionism.

At the time, it was not 100% certain the Argos would go to BMO - however, it was 100% certain TFC would stay.

That having been said, there is a way of having a full north end without using the CFL endzone - but that would require the land north of the current stadium gates between the stadium & the food building.

I would note we have yet to see any renderings of what the stadium will look like for the World Cup. And Manning indicated nothing would be going on in that regard until 2025. I expect Russia 18 style seating.

I know it sounds crazy but figure out how to make the Food Building part on the experience on game days. We have enough smart people, i cant believe that it cannot be done and get some sort of semi/permanent seating or safe standing.

glaze
03-12-2023, 10:44 AM
The food building has to be used when the world cup temp stand goes up. But otherwise it would involve alot of extra security and maintenance costs etc for a TFC gameday.
The stadium wasn't full yesterday. We dont need a new stand, or even an expansion.
We do need a new concourse on the west stand, and more entrance gates.
And a solution to the tunnel, whatever they tried yesterday fencing everyone in, isnt it. But at least it seems MLSE/GO has finally acknowledged there is an issue with the tunnel.

Mr. Inbetween
03-15-2023, 04:19 AM
Update :)... Key, surrounding stadium infrastructure...

https://twitter.com/Urban_Toronto/status/1632909105844084738

Canary10
03-15-2023, 08:03 AM
The food building has to be used when the world cup temp stand goes up. But otherwise it would involve alot of extra security and maintenance costs etc for a TFC gameday.
The stadium wasn't full yesterday. We dont need a new stand, or even an expansion.
We do need a new concourse on the west stand, and more entrance gates.
And a solution to the tunnel, whatever they tried yesterday fencing everyone in, isnt it. But at least it seems MLSE/GO has finally acknowledged there is an issue with the tunnel.

The long-term solution to the tunnel is the Ontario Line/GO Exhibition Station. I just hope they can get that built in advance of the World Cup.

Mr. Inbetween
03-17-2023, 10:19 PM
Looks like there's a new North bench

Received an email from TFC early this afternoon that is related to, seems to confirm, after a month, Sn0re's post...

'We are adding to the lower level! New seating locations are now available for purchase in the North Grandstand (Sections 131-134) starting with our match on Saturday, April 1st'.

Edit: rydermike has already just mentioned this in another thread.

Fort York Redcoat
03-19-2023, 05:30 PM
Update :)... Key, surrounding stadium infrastructure...

https://twitter.com/Urban_Toronto/status/1632909105844084738

Should've done this with the expansion of the stadium.

Hardly believe they've finally started.

Miracles do happen

nfitz
03-29-2023, 07:19 PM
Should've done this with the expansion of the stadium.

Hardly believe they've finally started.

Miracles do happenOnly because the Ontario Line is being built. And only because there are going to have to be closures of the tunnel occasionally during construction. That new bridge structure they are building is only temporary, for a few years.

On the bright side - around the end of the decade, we'll end up with a real station!

https://cdn.skyrisecities.com/sites/default/files/images/projects/47564/47564-142547.jpeg

ensco
03-30-2023, 07:00 AM
Tuesday's lineup mess to get in has a lot of people spitting bullets on the Vs board.

One of the interesting suggestions there is to integrate the Food building into the North End reno, and, if you are going to make thousands stand in line in grim weather, at least funnel the lines through there.

It does get you thinking about that Food building - I mean, how important is it really to the Ex? There are other solutions for Tiny Tom donuts in the ground somewhere…

Anhyhow, my grand idea, borrowing liberally/entirely from others, is that you knock down the Food building and rebuild it as an integrated part of BMO (maybe that helps it be convention space or something too), then you have somewhere indoors for ticket lines to go…. and you can then do what you need to do, to fill in all the corners and have a proper stadium feel…

OgtheDim
03-30-2023, 07:51 AM
The food building is the most visited building at the Ex - the revenue from what is sold on there is necessary to keep the Ex going.

You go to the Ex, you eat there.

A hall of eating can be integrated better with BMO field but that would require imagination & effort &...to be blunt...the powers that be in this city & province would rather spend time at the cottage then think outside the box.

Canary10
03-30-2023, 08:47 AM
Only because the Ontario Line is being built. And only because there are going to have to be closures of the tunnel occasionally during construction. That new bridge structure they are building is only temporary, for a few years.

On the bright side - around the end of the decade, we'll end up with a real station!

https://cdn.skyrisecities.com/sites/default/files/images/projects/47564/47564-142547.jpeg

When the Ontario Line is done, I will literally have two subway stations at my doorstep (Leslieville and East Harbour) that will drop me off at BMO Field for TFC games in about 15-20 minutes. ATM there is no easy way to go from the east side of downtown to BMO Field by TTC, so I am only driving.

Ultra & Proud
03-30-2023, 09:28 AM
The food building is the most visited building at the Ex - the revenue from what is sold on there is necessary to keep the Ex going.

You go to the Ex, you eat there.

A hall of eating can be integrated better with BMO field but that would require imagination & effort &...to be blunt...the powers that be in this city & province would rather spend time at the cottage then think outside the box.

I have always wondered why the didn't copy some of the ideas you see in some newer American stadiums and incorporate The Food Building into BMO's north end as a food & drink building and also for separate events. You are right that it is the Ex's cash cow but that seems a waste for a few weeks a year. You fix it up good and it could be used for corporate events, wedding receptions, meetings/business presentations, etc on top of having a better spread for TFC/Argo matches as well as an alternative to the outdoor square by Scotiabank for Leafs, Raptors, or Blue Jays playoff matches. Seems under ultilized for something that could be good. I am sure you could rent space to private vendors as well.

Bushmancan
03-30-2023, 11:46 AM
Tuesday's lineup mess to get in has a lot of people spitting bullets on the Vs board.

One of the interesting suggestions there is to integrate the Food building into the North End reno, and, if you are going to make thousands stand in line in grim weather, at least funnel the lines through there.

It does get you thinking about that Food building - I mean, how important is it really to the Ex? There are other solutions for Tiny Tom donuts in the ground somewhere…

Anhyhow, my grand idea, borrowing liberally/entirely from others, is that you knock down the Food building and rebuild it as an integrated part of BMO (maybe that helps it be convention space or something too), then you have somewhere indoors for ticket lines to go…. and you can then do what you need to do, to fill in all the corners and have a proper stadium feel…

Tuesday was a complete joke, we got there 35 minutes early and just barely got there for the anthems.

It would be great if we didn't completely destroy the building (nostalgia) but very kewl to add it to a game day experience. Never thought of lines flowing through it to get into the stadium. Nice.

JoesphNdo
03-30-2023, 01:50 PM
Going way off topic but in general the whole exhibition area always seems like an absurd waste of land to me. In a city with a housing crisis, where land is so precious, to dedicate that amount of (absolutely prime, waterside and very well connected) space to buildings, parking lots and roads that are completely empty for 95% of the year? Seems insane to me

Canary10
03-30-2023, 02:07 PM
Going way off topic but in general the whole exhibition area always seems like an absurd waste of land to me. In a city with a housing crisis, where land is so precious, to dedicate that amount of (absolutely prime, waterside and very well connected) space to buildings, parking lots and roads that are completely empty for 95% of the year? Seems insane to me

I agree. Plus the huge Ontario Place parking lots right across the street.

Kamp Berg
03-30-2023, 05:58 PM
I agree. Plus the huge Ontario Place parking lots right across the street.

Or the rest of Ontario Place rotting away. What city let’s their best assets go fallow?

Red CB Toronto
03-30-2023, 06:44 PM
Or the rest of Ontario Place rotting away. What city let’s their best assets go fallow?

It is provincial land, and Dougie wants a casino, padding some donors pockets ) :

los sonadores
03-30-2023, 07:39 PM
It is provincial land, and Dougie wants a casino, padding some donors pockets ) :

Always a primary Ontario Conservative Party motive. Apart from destroying Toronto, that is. Sometimes the two can be combined.

Hey, look on the bright side - we can hit the Ontario Place Spa after a match.

OgtheDim
03-30-2023, 08:49 PM
Its not going to be a casino...yet.

Ontario place & the ground around it will become a "day spa".

Without getting into the details, they are going to put a 5 story parking garage under a 10 story tall building over there. The day spa is getting control of the grounds "in perpetuity" meaning forever...which means Ontario is basically signing over the land to whomever owns that contract forever.

BTW, that construction on that thing is going to go on during the WC...enjoy the mess.

Once the day spa dies (because it only makes money if 10K per day go there & I don't think 10k of people per day are going to go for a spa & a waterslide), that contract and the building can be turned into whatever the highest bidder wants.

Oh look....a casino.

Anyhoo....by that time there will be a subway up to the Science Centre from the Ex & the WC will be 10 years ago so....

los sonadores
03-30-2023, 11:02 PM
Its not going to be a casino...yet.

Ontario place & the ground around it will become a "day spa".

Without getting into the details, they are going to put a 5 story parking garage under a 10 story tall building over there. The day spa is getting control of the grounds "in perpetuity" meaning forever...which means Ontario is basically signing over the land to whomever owns that contract forever.

BTW, that construction on that thing is going to go on during the WC...enjoy the mess.

Once the day spa dies (because it only makes money if 10K per day go there & I don't think 10k of people per day are going to go for a spa & a waterslide), that contract and the building can be turned into whatever the highest bidder wants.

Oh look....a casino.

Anyhoo....by that time there will be a subway up to the Science Centre from the Ex & the WC will be 10 years ago so....

I think that the casino was the previously proposed plan now become “spa” as default measure. It sounds a bit like highway 407… very much ain’t public.

A terrible idea worth opposing. And there will be plenty of opportunities to oppose. Josh Matlow, who was at the Canada match, has spoken out against the development very directly. Difficult not to remember that we owe our existence partly to David Miller who was of a similar mindset.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/toronto/article-will-torontos-next-mayor-defend-ontario-place/

SenorDingDong
03-31-2023, 12:27 PM
Going way off topic but in general the whole exhibition area always seems like an absurd waste of land to me. In a city with a housing crisis, where land is so precious, to dedicate that amount of (absolutely prime, waterside and very well connected) space to buildings, parking lots and roads that are completely empty for 95% of the year? Seems insane to me

They should take ideas from the Mission Rock Development in SF.

I previously lived in SF for 5 years, and this area similar to the EX was just a huge parking lot beside Oracle field on the water. They are now building into a vibrant community with parks, work, etc.

https://missionrock.com/a-shared-vision/

It should be noted that a big parking lot in the EX is already getting built on with this:
https://overactivemedia.com/venue/
https://urbantoronto.ca/news/2022/07/significant-changes-esports-arena-respond-context-and-heritage.48565

ensco
03-31-2023, 01:21 PM
San Francisco, Portland, Seattle, Boston, Chicago, Vancouver, even Montreal... all of them have done major waterfront revamps.

To fix this, Toronto needs to secede from Ontario, because Ontario controls all the purse strings, and all the waterfront lands.

For 40 years, we have been fumbling around, lurching left, lurching right, with billions of dollars of un-utilzed or under-utilized waterfront real estate, from the Beach to the Credit. Nothing ever happens, nothing gets done, because the way electoral math works at Queens Park, money isn't spent/invested in Toronto, it is collected there, and spent/invested elsewhere.

los sonadores
03-31-2023, 05:17 PM
San Francisco, Portland, Seattle, Boston, Chicago, Vancouver, even Montreal... all of them have done major waterfront revamps.

To fix this, Toronto needs to secede from Ontario, because Ontario controls all the purse strings, and all the waterfront lands.

For 40 years, we have been fumbling around, lurching left, lurching right, with billions of dollars of un-utilzed or under-utilized waterfront real estate, from the Beach to the Credit. Nothing ever happens, nothing gets done, because the way electoral math works at Queens Park, money isn't spent/invested in Toronto, it is collected there, and spent/invested elsewhere.

Very true.

nfitz
03-31-2023, 07:02 PM
I have always wondered why the didn't copy some of the ideas you see in some newer American stadiums and incorporate The Food Building into BMO's north end as a food & drink building and also for separate events.There's already many event venues there, from large and small. I'm not sure they'd benefit from another one.


Tuesday was a complete joke, we got there 35 minutes early and just barely got there for the anthems.

The south centre (3B) entrance looked very poor from the second deck - with only 2 scanners - though I heard Gate 3 and Gate 4 weren't as bad.

I went through Gate 1 (northeast corner); it seemed longer than it should to me - but it only took about 5 minutes. But plenty of scanners there.

Mr. Inbetween
04-12-2023, 07:32 AM
FIFA WC26, BMO Field expansion/facility updates, Toronto City Council support... the bombshell's fallout... the politics... just got interesting; no more steady as she goes... let the chaos begin and reign. It may turn into a turf war now; a hot potato issue. With realpolitik implications for MLSE/TFC.

Oh boy. Oh no, say it ain't so. The fall-out of this developing matter may have collateral implications...

Has it begun? Are the ‘circuses’ setting up their tents?

https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2023/04/12/inside-torontos-sweetheart-deal-with-mlse-to-host-world-cup.html

OgtheDim
04-12-2023, 07:44 AM
That article was very...vague - and very dependent upon the impact of one phrase in the opinion of a Brock prof. The idea that the current crop of city employees could put together a world cup venue acceptable to the world is...laughable.

BUT, the idea the MLSE gets to recoup losses due to relocation from WC revenues is something that should not have happened - that one is on John Tory.

I don't see a backlash against the WC happening here.

***********

What I DO see of note is only $25 million in upgrades to the stadium - that's not enough in my mind for a full revamp of the West side let alone the needed North End rethink. I suspect we get a slightly redone press area and a temp north stand & that's about it. I would have been happier if MLSE had decided to put in $25 million of their own money to make the venue up to 2026 standards. But then again, we only got free wifi this year so.....

SenorDingDong
04-12-2023, 09:00 AM
San Francisco, Portland, Seattle, Boston, Chicago, Vancouver, even Montreal... all of them have done major waterfront revamps.

To fix this, Toronto needs to secede from Ontario, because Ontario controls all the purse strings, and all the waterfront lands.

For 40 years, we have been fumbling around, lurching left, lurching right, with billions of dollars of un-utilzed or under-utilized waterfront real estate, from the Beach to the Credit. Nothing ever happens, nothing gets done, because the way electoral math works at Queens Park, money isn't spent/invested in Toronto, it is collected there, and spent/invested elsewhere.

While I agree, I will add one exception. Waterfront Toronto has done some amazing work over the years with more to come. They are one organization that seems to function well and deliver good results.

https://www.waterfrontoronto.ca/

Canary10
04-12-2023, 09:00 AM
That article was very...vague - and very dependent upon the impact of one phrase in the opinion of a Brock prof. The idea that the current crop of city employees could put together a world cup venue acceptable to the world is...laughable.

BUT, the idea the MLSE gets to recoup losses due to relocation from WC revenues is something that should not have happened - that one is on John Tory.

I don't see a backlash against the WC happening here.

***********

What I DO see of note is only $25 million in upgrades to the stadium - that's not enough in my mind for a full revamp of the West side let alone the needed North End rethink. I suspect we get a slightly redone press area and a temp north stand & that's about it. I would have been happier if MLSE had decided to put in $25 million of their own money to make the venue up to 2026 standards. But then again, we only got free wifi this year so.....

It's a bad look from MLSE, but if you can bring the full force of your government-granted duopoly in telecommunications to pry a deal out of the city I guess you go and do it. Sucks we won't get a more modernized stadium out of this. It's going to look embarrassing to the world.

Canary10
04-12-2023, 09:09 AM
While I agree, I will add one exception. Waterfront Toronto has done some amazing work over the years with more to come. They are one organization that seems to function well and deliver good results.

https://www.waterfrontoronto.ca/

Yeah I agree. The Portlands flood-proofing project is well on its way to being completed next year. The new Villiers Island will be done, the new river flowing, the parks established. The new Cherry Street-Lakeshore intersection is almost done, they just installed the traffic lights a few weeks ago. The southern Cherry street bridge is operational. We'll still need to do the building on the island, but the work to get it to a stage to build on is nearly finished. It'll be a jewel for Toronto.

JoesphNdo
04-12-2023, 09:21 AM
I mainly hate that everything here is temporary, what a waste. There's so much work that could be done to BMO and this is a great excuse to do it but they're cheaping out again

Canary10
04-12-2023, 10:15 AM
I mainly hate that everything here is temporary, what a waste. There's so much work that could be done to BMO and this is a great excuse to do it but they're cheaping out again

Yeah it's a big wasted opportunity.

Richard
04-12-2023, 11:26 AM
Anybody surprised? MLSE do the bare minimum in running this team. Having two highly paid designated players doesn't count.

No vision, no leadership.

Ultra & Proud
04-12-2023, 01:06 PM
No vision, no leadership.

They have both of these though. The vision is to get the city & tax payers to pay for everything while giving MLSE half the profits. The leadership is whoever MLSE had talk Tory into this. By the sounds of this deal, if those two were in an office when this deal was made then Tory for sure wan't the leader.

ensco
04-12-2023, 03:11 PM
There is clearly a story still to be told about John Tory’s relationship with Rogers/MLSE…

OgtheDim
04-12-2023, 03:41 PM
There is clearly a story still to be told about John Tory’s relationship with Rogers/MLSE…


Most of its already known

Ex CFL head honcho
Ex Rogers exec
On board of Rogers until became mayor
As mayor, still receiving 100K a year from Rogers for consultancy including executor of Ted's estate
Used Rogers provided notes when Rogers/Jays complained about use of Lakeshore West on weekends last year
Recent employee he had affair with (i.e. harrassment) went on to work at MLSE on the World Cup project while in relationship with mayor

Richard
04-12-2023, 03:44 PM
They have both of these though. The vision is to get the city & tax payers to pay for everything while giving MLSE half the profits. The leadership is whoever MLSE had talk Tory into this. By the sounds of this deal, if those two were in an office when this deal was made then Tory for sure wan't the leader.

TFC should have a modern 40K soccer specific stadium nicely enclosed, safe standing etc.

MLSE can easily afford to foot the bill.

The tax payer shouldn't be on the hook for a cent for the temporary upgrades. I'm so fucking tired of these corps waiting for government handouts.

jloome
04-12-2023, 04:01 PM
TFC should have a modern 40K soccer specific stadium nicely enclosed, safe standing etc.

MLSE can easily afford to foot the bill.

The tax payer shouldn't be on the hook for a cent for the temporary upgrades. I'm so fucking tired of these corps waiting for government handouts.

The city owns the stadium, not MLSE. So it's not a handout; it's upgrading its own facility. The sweetheart deal -- and they're not uncommon for large events like the Olympics and World Cup -- is to replace lost revenue during the event. Part of that is likely justified, because FIFA hosting agreements usually include FIFA getting portions of stadium revenue.

As MLSE's use agreement with the city includes stadium revenue...

Having it cover other potential losses outside of those that are venue specific is the real sweetheart part of this. (And having it built for them in the first place, justified by it being a "National Soccer Stadium".)

Now, having said all that, MLSE could easily afford to build its own football-specific stadium. When it had the feds, city and province kick-in, it was making a $10M investment in a relatively shaky league. It also got the immediate benefit of city land -- the biggest cost to it in this if it wanted to build its own from scratch probably wouldn't even be the construction bill, but the cost of buying up that much of urban Toronto, barring some sort of free "life lease" with the city (which in itself would limit their capital acquisition and financing options, I imagine).

ensco
04-12-2023, 04:01 PM
Most of its already known


I think it's possible there is more.

OgtheDim
04-12-2023, 04:13 PM
I think it's possible there is more.

Based on information out there but that will never be reported about other high elected officials in this province, I concur.

wopchop
04-12-2023, 05:04 PM
TFC should have a modern 40K soccer specific stadium nicely enclosed, safe standing etc.

MLSE can easily afford to foot the bill.

The tax payer shouldn't be on the hook for a cent for the temporary upgrades. I'm so fucking tired of these corps waiting for government handouts.
The City owns the stadium, not MLSE.

I believe MLSE agreed to pay for the majority of the last $120MM renovation (i.e. east upper deck and roof), despite not owning the building.

OgtheDim
04-12-2023, 06:05 PM
It should be noted there is no final agreement yet - this is only negotiations. In theory, MLSE could put more in then the $25 million.

JoesphNdo
04-12-2023, 06:28 PM
Most of its already known

Ex CFL head honcho
Ex Rogers exec
On board of Rogers until became mayor
As mayor, still receiving 100K a year from Rogers for consultancy including executor of Ted's estate
Used Rogers provided notes when Rogers/Jays complained about use of Lakeshore West on weekends last year
Recent employee he had affair with (i.e. harrassment) went on to work at MLSE on the World Cup project while in relationship with mayor

Let's not forget opposed municipal supplied broadband. No conflict of interest there...

los sonadores
04-12-2023, 11:28 PM
Most of its already known

Ex CFL head honcho
Ex Rogers exec
On board of Rogers until became mayor
As mayor, still receiving 100K a year from Rogers for consultancy including executor of Ted's estate
Used Rogers provided notes when Rogers/Jays complained about use of Lakeshore West on weekends last year
Recent employee he had affair with (i.e. harrassment) went on to work at MLSE on the World Cup project while in relationship with mayor

And we imagine we live with fair, corruption-free government unlike, say those in South America or Eastern Europe. The Tories talk ‘fiscal responsibility’ but so often do wasteful corruption.

And it’s typical that our mayor is out of office not because of his politics but because of his love life (although even that had dubious business connections!). Sigh…

ensco
04-14-2023, 07:16 AM
For those who like deeper dives on how/why Toronto became a “sprawl” city, this podcast is excellent…. It is a different take on how Toronto went wrong (hint: fear of immigrants had an interesting impact)

https://99percentinvisible.org/episode/the-missing-middle/

Oldtimer
04-14-2023, 10:59 AM
And we imagine we live with fair, corruption-free government unlike, say those in South America or Eastern Europe. The Tories talk ‘fiscal responsibility’ but so often do wasteful corruption.

And it’s typical that our mayor is out of office not because of his politics but because of his love life (although even that had dubious business connections!). Sigh…


As far as mayors go, Miller was honest and really cared about the city. Toronto taxpayer's didn't like his spending though and wanted low, low, taxes so voted next for Rob Ford (I can't even comment what a disaster that was).

I don't begrudge MLSE not paying for the WC upgrades. TFC won't really benefit from them as they are temporary, and MLSE already paid for upgrades to the city-owned facility to cover TFC's needs.

Richard
04-14-2023, 11:55 AM
As far as mayors go, Miller was honest and really cared about the city. Toronto taxpayer's didn't like his spending though and wanted low, low, taxes so voted next for Rob Ford (I can't even comment what a disaster that was).

I don't begrudge MLSE not paying for the WC upgrades. TFC won't really benefit from them as they are temporary, and MLSE already paid for upgrades to the city-owned facility to cover TFC's needs.

If anybody in the government and at MLSE had any vision at all they would realize how monumental a moment it is to have Canada at a home world cup playing in a new state of the art stadium(40k is even enough). It could be another 30 years before we have another world cup in Canada.

The 2026 world cup needs the same nationalistic energy that the Vancouver Olympics had. Really none of these dinosaurs understand the magnitude of a World Cup is, or what even a semi competitive Canadian team could do for this country.

Oldtimer
04-14-2023, 02:11 PM
If anybody in the government and at MLSE had any vision at all they would realize how monumental a moment it is to have Canada at a home world cup playing in a new state of the art stadium(40k is even enough). It could be another 30 years before we have another world cup in Canada.

The 2026 world cup needs the same nationalistic energy that the Vancouver Olympics had. Really none of these dinosaurs understand the magnitude of a World Cup is, or what even a semi competitive Canadian team could do for this country.

The World Cup is much bigger than the Olympics.

Since soccer is supported mostly by younger people and new Canadians, unfortunately the old school Boomers and Gen Xers in charge don't see the value of it.

I only got into it because my father came from Europe. Most people of my generation were into baseball as a summer sport.

Mr. Inbetween
05-10-2023, 12:29 AM
More mayoral/city council political posturing?

https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/toronto-taxpayers-on-the-hook-for-world-cup-deal-never-made-known-to-city-officials-1.6391571

https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2023/05/09/sweetheart-deal-between-mlse-city-to-host-fifa-world-cup-2026-was-binding-and-not-made-known-to-elected-officials.html

nfitz
05-10-2023, 03:04 PM
More mayoral/city council political posturing?

https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/toronto-taxpayers-on-the-hook-for-world-cup-deal-never-made-known-to-city-officials-1.6391571

https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2023/05/09/sweetheart-deal-between-mlse-city-to-host-fifa-world-cup-2026-was-binding-and-not-made-known-to-elected-officials.htmlMostly posturing. It's routine when the election wass on, for elected officials to give such powers to city staff. And the report itself says that the contract also stops MLSE from making significant profit from this.

The city is paying BMO Field upgrade costs - but they are minimal compared to the amount MLSE put in for the 2015/16 expansion.

There's certainly big issues with how much the World Cup costs per game (compare to Gold Cup costs per game). But that's a different issue - but a shame the media isn't drilling into that instead.

Auzzy
05-10-2023, 07:47 PM
For those who like deeper dives on how/why Toronto became a “sprawl” city, this podcast is excellent…. It is a different take on how Toronto went wrong (hint: fear of immigrants had an interesting impact)

https://99percentinvisible.org/episode/the-missing-middle/

Thanks for posting that, excellent article!

I remember first travelling around Toronto when I came here from Germany. I was surprised by the huge amounts of single-family housing located very close to downtown, subway stations, and major streets. And frankly, lots of it is quite ugly -- including the house we could afford in 2002. And the "detached" houses that are so close to the next one that you can't even fix things that go wrong on those walls that are almost touching -- I thought that was nuts, and then that's what we ended up buying...

EDIT look at what happened today:

https://twitter.com/davescrivener/status/1656431851970473985

Now there's still a chance that this gets screwed up in implementation (especially if the province gets involved and somehow ensures that most of the benefits go to a couple of close buddies / lobbyists) but that is a big change.

OgtheDim
05-10-2023, 09:14 PM
Shocked they passed that but then scuttlebutt is employers are putting huge pressure on the province saying they can't get staff to work in Toronto so if we don't do something, the city will hollow out soon. Province mandated triplex everywhere - city went farther because quads are more economically viable (said the realtors & builders).

ag futbol
05-10-2023, 09:29 PM
Shocked they passed that but then scuttlebutt is employers are putting huge pressure on the province saying they can't get staff to work in Toronto so if we don't do something, the city will hollow out soon. Province mandated triplex everywhere - city went farther because quads are more economically viable (said the realtors & builders).
I could write a whole novel on the topics adjacent to this but to say the least: what is happening right now in office real estate, residential real estate, remote work dynamics, and urban decay / city budgets / etc … is nothing short of fascinating.

Everyone is trying to tilt the public agenda in their own favour. Some parties will be fine, others will be turmed upside down. One extreme example below:

https://www.wsj.com/articles/san-francisco-commercial-real-estate-office-buildings-471742ea

glaze
05-10-2023, 10:17 PM
Lol didn’t know this was a city building thread but also love a good conversation about this stuff.
I think the areas affected first will be those with bungalows on large lots, whereas the area around BMO, or walking distance, Bellwoods Park, along Niagara east of strachan, parkdale etc should all be torn down and rebuilt with more density.

OgtheDim
05-11-2023, 06:18 AM
Yeh, I don't think people realise how this is going to change things in the suburbs where there are deep lots - why invest in a McMansion rebuild when you can invest in a quadplex - without parking requirements either.

ag futbol
05-11-2023, 06:45 AM
Yeh, I don't think people realise how this is going to change things in the suburbs where there are deep lots - why invest in a McMansion rebuild when you can invest in a quadplex - without parking requirements either.
I did see a headline, when I read a little bit further, that any re-development was subject to appeal by neighbourhood associations. It could still get quite obstructionist. Devil might be in the details here.

JoesphNdo
05-11-2023, 06:51 AM
I did see a headline, when I read a little bit further, that any re-development was subject to appeal by neighbourhood associations. It could still get quite obstructionist. Devil might be in the details here.

Yep I'm extremely pessimistic that any units get built as a result of this. I believe the height requirements are still strict and some other regulations that make building them difficult still exist. Toronto is a city of NIMBYs, always has been, I strongly doubt this is allowed to work as the headlines suggest

Initial B
05-11-2023, 06:30 PM
I work for a municipality. The talk amongst planners nationwide is the effort to built high density, but low-storied housing to build a sense of community among residents and make more efficient use of the existing infrastructure. They also try to centre the highest density around transit hubs to minimize the need for cars. The idea is to build communities where all the amenities (retail, medical, etc) you would need are within 15 minutes walking distance. But somehow 15-minute cities became a conspiracy thing...

glaze
05-12-2023, 07:00 PM
The city wants that density, but the infrastructure isnt there. Then the areas with it, like bloor west, become very expensive.
I'd love to have a local pub, a family dr, a grocery store in walking distance, etc.
A shoppers drug mart with a walk in clinic and a small grocery section isnt the same, but thats what you get. And the gov't has priced pubs beyond the means of many people.
Compare that to the UK where everyone has a local.

ag futbol
05-13-2023, 08:25 AM
Yep I'm extremely pessimistic that any units get built as a result of this. I believe the height requirements are still strict and some other regulations that make building them difficult still exist. Toronto is a city of NIMBYs, always has been, I strongly doubt this is allowed to work as the headlines suggest
Yep. Toronto is morally conservative city in more fun-loving clothing. Have already seen people complaining on social media, dog whistling about “rooming houses” and societal decay. As if those don’t already exist as a result of the current housing shortage and poor enforcement of rules. A huge number of TFW’s working in fast food live in rooming houses (all they can afford) .


I work for a municipality. The talk amongst planners nationwide is the effort to built high density, but low-storied housing to build a sense of community among residents and make more efficient use of the existing infrastructure. They also try to centre the highest density around transit hubs to minimize the need for cars. The idea is to build communities where all the amenities (retail, medical, etc) you would need are within 15 minutes walking distance. But somehow 15-minute cities became a conspiracy thing...
I love the idea. I question their claim of “existing infrastructure” though, as if that implies some sort of surplus or untapped resource. Here particularly, the city seems to think anywhere near a subway stop is worthy of a 60 story tower. Not sure they understand all the other things they need to do in order to make the space liveable when residents are packed in that densely.




The city wants that density, but the infrastructure isnt there. Then the areas with it, like bloor west, become very expensive.
I'd love to have a local pub, a family dr, a grocery store in walking distance, etc.
A shoppers drug mart with a walk in clinic and a small grocery section isnt the same, but thats what you get. And the gov't has priced pubs beyond the means of many people.
Compare that to the UK where everyone has a local.
Totally agree. My once interesting downtown neighbourhood now feels increasingly sanitized. Formerly unique retail spaces replaced by condos with shoppers drug marts, dry cleaners, and subways restaurants underneath.

I think the city needs to really up the commercial vacancy tax and force developers to put more and better retail space under every new building. I see a lot of units that anre vacant or populated by pot shops (short term tenants basically). There should be business in these spaces and commercial rents shouldn’t be so astronomical such that most small operators are priced out.

Mr. Inbetween
08-25-2023, 07:35 AM
Early 'fringe' opinion to cancel Toronto's as a WC26 host city seems to have gained momentum..

https://twitter.com/CTVTheDebate/status/1678812152054808577

Also, a recent article by Ben Spurr: Toronto Star- City Hall Bureau

https://twitter.com/TorontoStar/status/1691036699847991298

SenorDingDong
08-25-2023, 09:44 AM
That ship has sailed. It ain't getting canceled.

FootBallAZ
08-25-2023, 10:52 AM
Early 'fringe' opinion to cancel Toronto's as a WC26 host city seems to have gained momentum..

https://twitter.com/CTVTheDebate/status/1678812152054808577

Also, a recent article by Ben Spurr: Toronto Star- City Hall Bureau

https://twitter.com/TorontoStar/status/1691036699847991298


blame bill manning- if there was permanent upgrades done- Toronto could have hosted premier league friendly games and found other ways to generate revenue SMH

if this happens ill be so mad- how in the world toronto would lose hosting world cup would be a joke.

Ultra & Proud
08-25-2023, 10:54 AM
if this happens ill be so mad- how in the world toronto would lose hosting world cup would be a joke.

Wait until Canada isn't in it because FIFA dissolves our federation.

ag futbol
08-25-2023, 10:57 AM
That ship has sailed. It ain't getting canceled.
Yeah, agreed. If we backed out now, the financial penalties would exceed any benefit of the forgone spending would be my expectation. Sports is usually a bad bet for cities economically.

Half suspect the Canadian Taxpayer Federation just has an axe to grind with a left-leaning mayor. They wouldn’t even bother saying anything if it was a Ford brother holding office.

A Stick
08-25-2023, 11:28 AM
Yeah, agreed. If we backed out now, the financial penalties would exceed any benefit of the forgone spending would be my expectation. Sports is usually a bad bet for cities economically.

Half suspect the Canadian Taxpayer Federation just has an axe to grind with a left-leaning mayor. They wouldn’t even bother saying anything if it was a Ford brother holding office.

They had ample time to complain about this when Tory was in power. This is a political ploy. This organization will do anything to destroy Oliva Chow.

SenorDingDong
08-25-2023, 12:34 PM
It's annoying how they hate and attack articles all came out before she was even mayor

los sonadores
08-26-2023, 02:19 AM
It's annoying how they hate and attack articles all came out before she was even mayor

Very annoying. I hope she can withstand that right wing propaganda. The “megacity” was invented to prevent the left from keeping power in Toronto. So far that Harris initiative has been very successful and there seems to be a lot of right entitlement these days.

JoesphNdo
08-26-2023, 05:28 AM
Very annoying. I hope she can withstand that right wing propaganda. The “megacity” was invented to prevent the left from keeping power in Toronto. So far that Harris initiative has been very successful and there seems to be a lot of right entitlement these days.
This is getting way off topic but it's not even a right left thing. The only thing that unified the cons and the libs is the abject fear of the NDP proving they can govern. She'll be getting it from everywhere

Auzzy
08-26-2023, 03:56 PM
Early 'fringe' opinion to cancel Toronto's as a WC26 host city seems to have gained momentum..

https://twitter.com/CTVTheDebate/status/1678812152054808577

Also, a recent article by Ben Spurr: Toronto Star- City Hall Bureau

https://twitter.com/TorontoStar/status/1691036699847991298

First of all, I wouldn't be surprised if Toronto gets screwed by hosting the WC, with FIFA and the CSA being very shady organizations, other iffy deals between MLSE & the city, and many other reasons.

However, a Twitter poll and the Canadian Taxpayers Federation are both not really a sign of something gaining traction. The CTF is a pretty sketchy operation that gets quoted in the media often. There are major questions about its funding sources, the real number of Canadian supporters it has, and much more.

OgtheDim
08-28-2023, 05:46 PM
Hmmm......CNE building leases dying in 2027 - don't be surprised if MLSE jumps on the Food building.


https://www.theglobeandmail.com/arts/art-and-architecture/article-exhibition-place-cne-toronto/

Mr. Inbetween
02-13-2024, 10:54 AM
A third party rendering of FIFA WC26 Toronto (BMO Field) facilities expansion. Done as byproduct with information for enhanced site telecommunication planning? Nothing surprising. Likely all temporary, perhaps some parts permanent? Layout appears very similar to that of the past for a series of MLS Cup/NHL Outdoor Heritage/CFL Grey Cup events.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=h2__34QsvrI&feature=shared

JoesphNdo
02-13-2024, 11:36 AM
Doing all this temporarily and us returning to our weird floating roof setup is such a missed opportunity. I can't help but feel that MLSE poured money into the team to try and build up support, bring back the waitlists, in order to justify permanently expanding the stadium by combining great performances with the world cup hype and it just all went completely flat in the end

JonO
02-13-2024, 11:47 AM
Yeah. Some missed opportunities here for sure. I am one of the (very) few who don’t mind our tin can stadium but filling in the corners and a proper roof would go a long way…