Match Day 9 - Orlando @ TFC Wednesday May 3 7:30pm - The Return of the Native

[OgtheDim]

Persons with any weight of character carry, like planets, their atmospheres along with them in their orbits

A game full of characters - Seba, Johnson, Bendik, Kaka possibly, Altidore, Kreis, Vanney, Bradley and more. A huge eastern clash and what should be a fascinating game. Really looking forward to this one.

Have at It People

[Redpunkfiddle]

Take it one game at a time, I say. 110%

[Initial B]

Maybe I shouldn't be thinking ahead to the next game, but I wonder if Vanney plays the same starting 11 again or modifies it because it's a midweek game. I think I would be fine with having the same starting 11 on short rest and then resting the starters and try a different look heading into Seattle.

[OgtheDim]

11 degrees at kickoff which is the high for that day. No rain forecasted. Should be a good night for some serious technique being shown. Kaka to possibly start after subbing in on Saturday.

Orlando's defence is significantly improved this season but its still not as disciplined as ours. Going to be a great game.

[MightyDM]

Very interesting to see who Vanney rotates over the next three games. I hope Chapman has some proper minutes, same for Cheyrou, and that Hamilton gets a run out too.

[mistercorporate]

I expect nothing less than the same starting 11 as last time (unless Moor is in good shape)!! Ricketts or Cooper as subs if need be.

[OgtheDim]

With apologies to the MLS hype machine, I think the game in Seattle is the least important of this particular stretch. Against Orlando, I would suspect to see the same squad as the last two games and then wholesale changes out west.

[Hamilton_Red]

Yep - the Orlando game is the one that counts. East Division leaders need to be brought back to reality. Travelling out West with a mid week game seems like a tough ask. This is the chance to correct the wrong that was done last December with Seattle though. Just win both please. 5 Games in 16 days coming up - Big pile of points at stake. This run will have a big influence on the season.

[SirBobSaget]

Should be an attacking lineup for Orlando followed by defensive in Seattle. Hopefully someone is healthy enough to return to play LCD and give Morrow a rest. Then also give Beit a rest, maybe start Delgado at RM. Then just manage minutes because there are 4 games between May 3 and May 13.

[MightyDM]

With apologies to the MLS hype machine, I think the game in Seattle is the least important of this particular stretch. Against Orlando, I would suspect to see the same squad as the last two games and then wholesale changes out west.

it is interesting, because some players who might need a rest are not necessarily the ones who we have replacements for ie Beitashour.

I wouldnt be be surprised if Vasquez picks up a " niggle" and does not travel to Seattle, to be replaced by Osorio or Chapman. The Wednesday games will have priority. And Jozy will take a rest somewhere there, will we see Hamilton?

[OgtheDim]

The best way to correct the wrong done in December is to win this coming December.

[mistercorporate]

Should be an attacking lineup for Orlando followed by defensive in Seattle. Hopefully someone is healthy enough to return to play LCD and give Morrow a rest. Then also give Beit a rest, maybe start Delgado at RM. Then just manage minutes because there are 4 games between May 3 and May 13.

Yeah maybe give Mavinga a look at RCD or Ashton Morgan, versus Seattle. And as OgTheSmart says, focus on making a deep playoff run and avenge Dec 10 by winning the whole Cup!

[Fort York Redcoat]

This game is a nailbiter. Bendik, Johnson, Larin.

[mistercorporate]

This game is a nailbiter. Bendik, Johnson, Larin.

Meh, we've got Altidore, Giovinco, Vasquez. I hope OCSC supporters brought their diapers, they're gonna need it!

[notthesun]

https://twitter.com/Eric_Giacometti/status/859440837595471872

[Canary10]

Is Bendik still a fatty?

[trane]

We will win.

[Gringo Starr]

I'm guessing the Columbus game next Wednesday is where there will be more lineup changes rather than Seattle. I get that it is really more of a nothing game versus a middle of the pack western team with turf but that loss must eat at these guys still, can't see anyone not wanting the start against the sounders

[OgtheDim]

I honestly think the loss to Columbus grates more right now.

[James17930]

I honestly think the loss to Columbus grates more right now.

Yeah – I'm still annoyed by that one too.

My feeling is this one's going to be similar to the Atlanta game, but sort of the opposite – in that one, both teams were evenly offensively matched, and it was a great back-and-forth affair. Here, I feel the defenses are probably pretty evenly matched, so it might actually bog down in the midfield and be fairly slow. We've got to find ways of being really creative to move the ball quickly and maybe jump on the counter.

And hopefully Will Johnson doesn't try to 'prove' anything and break someone's leg.

[69Chevy396]

TFC 3 Orlando 2

[Joe Kool]

Pretty sure Joe Bendik was asked what he missed about Toronto this week and he said "maybe the coffee shops but that is about it". Nice. I am sure that was his attempt at witty humour. Looking forward to this one. I also hope Will Johnson doesn't break anyone's legs while getting all overzealous with challenges trying to prove something. Go Reds!!!

[molenshtain]

I don't think Willy is that type of player. His (small) gripes are with management. Never seemed to have a problem with any of the players. He'll play hard, but he won't play dirty.

Bendik is pandering to his new team. All the power to him. We never treated him properly.

[Joe Kool]

I don't think Willy is that type of player. His (small) gripes are with management. Never seemed to have a problem with any of the players. He'll play hard, but he won't play dirty.

Bendik is pandering to his new team. All the power to him. We never treated him properly.

I don't think Will is that type of player either but to prove something to management he may get a little overzealous is what I was saying. Not that he would be out to hurt anyone on purpose.

[SirBobSaget]

I don't think Willy is that type of player. His (small) gripes are with management. Never seemed to have a problem with any of the players. He'll play hard, but he won't play dirty.

Bendik is pandering to his new team. All the power to him. We never treated him properly.

How did TFC not treat Bendik properly? He was given plenty of minutes then Orlando wanted him. Orlando needs some road games to get them back to earth.

[James17930]

I don't think Will is that type of player either but to prove something to management he may get a little overzealous is what I was saying. Not that he would be out to hurt anyone on purpose.

Yeah – I also didn't mean he would purposely hurt anyone. Just that he might be too pumped up and 'play hard(er)' like he usually does.

[OgtheDim]

Game Day :scarf:

[zamperina]

Come On You Reds!

Let's Beat the Mickey Mouse Soccer Team!

[Red CB Toronto]

Can you feel it, kickoff is in less than 12 hours !!!

[Section_105]

Can you feel it, kickoff is in less than 12 hours !!!


strangely feels so much more of a game day than the Friday games. come on time! maybe afternoon pints are in order.

[ag futbol]

Bendik is pandering to his new team. All the power to him. We never treated him properly.
His expectations outstrip his talent level. Yeah, bringing in Cesar for 4 months was dumb but in general Bednik is a guy who has below average fundamentals but occasionally looks good making flashy saves. Always appeared his communication with his defenders was poor. There's no reason why he shouldn't have been pushed for his spot - he never played consistently enough to be an everyday starter.

I'll take either of our current guys or Frei over him.

[Fort York Redcoat]

His expectations outstrip his talent level. Yeah, bringing in Cesar for 4 months was dumb but in general Bednik is a guy who has below average fundamentals but occasionally looks good making flashy saves. Always appeared his communication with his defenders was poor. There's no reason why he shouldn't have been pushed for his spot - he never played consistently enough to be an everyday starter.

I'll take either of our current guys or Frei over him.

Agreed. That was bad timing for Bendik we got that opportunity but if we were to blame all his inconsistency on that aquisition we'd be given him too much leeway IMO. He was challenged most of his time here. I'm happy he found a top spot home with the Mickey Mouse/Snowbirds. He's prolly loving the new digs and the weather.

[C.Ronaldo]

Agreed. That was bad timing for Bendik we got that opportunity but if we were to blame all his inconsistency on that aquisition we'd be given him too much leeway IMO. He was challenged most of his time here. I'm happy he found a top spot home with the Mickey Mouse/Snowbirds. He's prolly loving the new digs and the weather.

playing and learning from ceasar is never an opportunity an MLS keeper should pass up

[Initial B]

Knowing our history with former TFC players playing against us, Bendik will probably channel MLS Cup Frei tonight. And someone needs to make a sign "Welcome back Will! Please don't score on us."

I'm thinking TFC could lose this one 1-0.

[molenshtain]

playing and learning from ceasar is never an opportunity an MLS keeper should pass up

If Cesar had been a coach, sure I could get behind that sentiment. But he was here for four months as a marketing ploy. If I'm Bendik and I see the club values a marketing ploy over letting their #1 actually play, I'm gonna be pretty pissed.

That, and the fact that the club and and many fans blamed our disastrous 2014-2015 defenses on him. His form fell off a bit, but it certainly was not as much down to him as everyone thought. And it didn't help that we kept pulling him and taking him out at a moments notice.

He's played very very well behind the first semi-organized defence he's had in his career. I don't think it's a total fluke.

[OgtheDim]

Bendik is a great shop stopper which is why he looks so good right now and last year. He's still poor in distribution and can't communicate worth beans in Libbyland.

Bono is better and Irwin is a significant upgrade.

[molenshtain]

I don't disagree.I think both of our current options are an upgrade. I just don't think he was treated completely fairly by many.

[Redcoe15]

I wanna see TFC curbstomp Shithole City tonite!

[notthesun]

No changes to our starting lineup.

https://twitter.com/torontofc/status/859900313049980929

As for Orlando, theirs isn't quite posted yet but it looks like we won't have to worry about Johnson potentially haunting us.

https://twitter.com/KristianJack/status/859900600926031872

edit: Orlando XI: https://twitter.com/OrlandoCitySC/status/859901872852926464

[oldtraffordPEI]

The Mickey Mouse club is going to freeze their, butts off tonight. Larin doesn't perform well on Canadian soil, should be fun to watch!

[James17930]

Interesting about no Johnson ... certainly ups our chances.

It's so weird; I know we should be feeling pretty confident here (on a good run, at home), but there's this feeling something could slip up.

But I think the ream needs to set a goal of going undefeated at BMO this year. It would be a huge challenge but it's doable.

So I'm conflicted.

[PizzaEatingYeti]

Stream up at Youtube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3nMX8XJhgA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3nMX8XJhgA)

[CBTFC]

Before people start moaning and complaining on how empty the stadium looks at kickoff, blame the typical Toronto weekday traffic congestion.

Not everyone can plan to be there 30+ minutes before kickoff.

[notthesun]

All right, I'll say it. When Moor comes back, do we actually take Edwards out of the XI?

The guy creates goals.

[Richard]

Edward's wont be in MLS much longer.

[Detroit_TFC]

Excellent start.

[ag futbol]

Team is on fire right now. Playing amazing!

[StokeciTFC]

Yes! Great awareness from Vasquez.

[Detroit_TFC]

Vazquez is serving up a feast of excellent passes.

[Detroit_TFC]

That was a gift to Orlando. Quit playing before the whistle blew.

[notthesun]

Damn, that's a soft one to give up. Orlando haven't done much, but that was a good ball in and Zavaleta couldn't handle Larin.

[PizzaEatingYeti]

What a shitty way to fuck up a very nice first half, and now to make for a tension full second half.
With 2-0 at break time we would've been 95% sure of victory today.

[ag futbol]

Yeah.. we go to halftime up 2-0 Orlando I guarantee it's nearly game over.

Unfortunate lapse but feel we can see this one out.

[ag futbol]

All right, I'll say it. When Moor comes back, do we actually take Edwards out of the XI?

The guy creates goals.
I think someone else on the backline gets dropped and Morrow stays on the left side. If not we'd see a fair amount of rotation, which is not bad as both guys could have a lisence to really blaze up and down the touch line creating issues for the opposition.

[Detroit_TFC]

Edwards is progressing a lot with this game time, it would be a shame to interrupt that. He's got a young man's confidence to try some things that more experienced players might avoid. Good to have some (but not too much) of that.

[ag futbol]

Too much defending. Need to retain possession more.

[PizzaEatingYeti]

Wake the fuck up, we play like shit all this half!!!!!

[Lennon]

Anyone have another stream? Youtube one went down.

[Detroit_TFC]

I can understand Vanney wanting to preserve Vazquez a bit for the Seattle game but that's a risky sub.

[oldtraffordPEI]

Anyone have another stream? Youtube one went down.
http://www.baloosports.ml/p/adsbygoogle-window_398.html

[Detroit_TFC]

Balde Toledo hates Altidore.

[PizzaEatingYeti]

Extremely bad half by TFC.

[ag futbol]

Dude that was infuriating by Cooper. Rather than take an easy layoff he dives for a foul then concedes a free kick.

[CBTFC]

Alright boys, time to shut the doors!

*holds up capital letter D cardboard cutout, and white picket fence cutout*

[Detroit_TFC]

HELL YES 3 pts

[oldtraffordPEI]

Sloppy second half, but another win. Great performances by Edwards, Gio and Vasquez

[charlieocc]

I'm thinking we need some squad rotation on Saturday. Guys were getting a little tired toward the end.

Also, fuck Toledo. 

[ag futbol]

Did Bradley just get red carded after the game? I saw him get a yellow and he kept yapping at Toledo pretty heatedly

[Detroit_TFC]

Toledo is a dickbag. YC for Bradley after the whistle.

[StokeciTFC]

Big win

[Shakes McQueen]

Rough second half, but a really good first half. Wonder if Orlando out-adjusted Vanney at the half - I'll leave that analysis to someone else.

Three points against the current East leaders. I'll take it. Still only one actual loss on the season, and Seba seems to be heating up.

[PizzaEatingYeti]

Good thing this is over.
Let's be honest here, we've stolen 2 points today from Orlando (thanks Bono!), based on a game of 100% different halfs.
Disgraceful performance from TFC in the 2nd half.

[notthesun]

Rode our luck for sure in the 2nd half, Bono with some huge saves. Had an especially tough first 20 or so minutes of the second, after that it was more bearable but still tilted a bit in Orlando's favor. Their goal right before half time really energized them, I think we might have went on to rout them if it was 2-0 at half because we were absolutely all over them in the first 45.

Anyways, good to grab another home win against what I think is actually a pretty good side. This game changed my opinion of Orlando a bit, I thought they were sort of pretenders but maybe they actually can challenge for the top of the conference.

Another two great performances from Vazquez and Giovinco. And my god Altidore just cannot get a call.

[Detroit_TFC]

Kreis knew how to adjust to thoroughly challenge TFC in the 2nd half, high press and don't allow TFC to establish any rhythm. 2 SOTW saves from Bono, incredible.

[General Woolfe]

What the hell was that second half? We went from absolutely strolling that game to clinging on for dear life by the end. I don't know where to start with that. Terrible in possession, terrible passing, maybe it was just an off night, but how so many players can switch off like that is beyond me. Not the best of evenings from our skipper and maybe the root of our problems in the second half lie there. Bradley got caught on the ball too often and he didn't seem to have his passing game going tonight, which more often than not saw us overrun in midfield with subsequent pressure on our defence. Jozy also had one of his lazier nights where he seemed content to amble about not really making himself available for the forward pass. I thought Vanney's substitutions were again suspect, the first in particular bordered on insanity. Why on earth would you pull your most creative player on the night, in an area of the field you are struggling, and replace him with a player who is poor in retaining possession? That just put more pressure on a midfield that was already struggling. To make it worse he then subs off the one player who always gave us an outlet going forward in Edwards. Perhaps the switch to a 4-4-2 make this move a little more understandable but nevertheless we never really threatened down the flank from that point on.

At the end of the day I'm grateful for the three points, and the way we handled one of the league's most in form teams in that first half was encoyraging. However were it not for two brain farts by Larin we could well be empty handed tonight. Thank God for Giovinco...

Onwards and upwards !! :scarf:

[anto7]

Good thing this is over.
Let's be honest here, we've stolen 2 points today from Orlando (thanks Bono!), based on a game of 100% different halfs.
Disgraceful performance from TFC in the 2nd half.

I would hardly call it a disgraceful performance from TFC. Sometimes you just got to give credit to the other team for coming out and playing really well and that sometimes means you have to grind out a result. Maybe we got a little lucky in walking away with the 3pts based on the 2nd half however remember we also completely dominated Orlando for 45 of the first 46 minutes.

[PizzaEatingYeti]

I would hardly call it a disgraceful performance from TFC. Sometimes you just got to give credit to the other team for coming out and playing really well and that sometimes means you have to grind out a result. Maybe we got a little lucky in walking away with the 3pts based on the 2nd half however remember we also completely dominated Orlando for 45 of the first 46 minutes.


And Orlando completely dominated us the 2nd half.
So we did not got a "little" lucky, but we got lucky.

[Stencils]

Kreis knew how to adjust to thoroughly challenge TFC in the 2nd half, high press and don't allow TFC to establish any rhythm. 2 SOTW saves from Bono, incredible.

I can't stop watching that save from 59'. SOTW? SOTY as far as I'm concerned. That's why you play to the whistle. That's why you never give up on a play you're in. Bono may not be the best keeper in the league by any stretch, but that's a save that shows his character and the character I want in every player on the pitch. Larin could have and should have buried that in the back of the netting. Bono could have watched him walk it in and I don't think anyone would really have called him on it. One guy played to the whistle. The other didn't.

Well done Bono. Well done.

[OgtheDim]

Moor would have calmed that all down in the second half. Hagglund was spotty. Might need a break. Moor supposedly back for Minnesota.

I enjoy Edwards but he was getting owned by stronger players in the second half. And his boneheaded clearance near the end of the first half led to their goal.

[ManUtd4ever]

I thought it was an entertaining, evenly played match. Bono was the difference.

[JoesphNdo]

It really worries me that Vanney would take off Vasquez when he did, that is absolutely handing the game to Orlando and only blind luck kept them out. Overall he's done a great job but I think his substitutions are boardering on awful and he needs to figure that out

[samuraizero]

You know you're officiating poorly when an entire stadium chants 'ref you suck' on numerous occasions throughout the match.

[MightyDM]

Damn, that's a soft one to give up. Orlando haven't done much, but that was a good ball in and Zavaleta couldn't handle Larin.

That was Bono's ball. And who was covering Kaka? Should have had two on him in that situation. Not zero.

[MightyDM]

I can understand Vanney wanting to preserve Vazquez a bit for the Seattle game but that's a risky sub.

shoring up our defence when we are up a goal isn't risky. Having three forwards on who don't defend is.

[MightyDM]

Dude that was infuriating by Cooper. Rather than take an easy layoff he dives for a foul then concedes a free kick.

ThTs why he is behind Delgado and Oso. And if he is, should he be here?

[MightyDM]

What the hell was that second half? We went from absolutely strolling that game to clinging on for dear life by the end. I don't know where to start with that. Terrible in possession, terrible passing, maybe it was just an off night, but how so many players can switch off like that is beyond me. Not the best of evenings from our skipper and maybe the root of our problems in the second half lie there. Bradley got caught on the ball too often and he didn't seem to have his passing game going tonight, which more often than not saw us overrun in midfield with subsequent pressure on our defence. Jozy also had one of his lazier nights where he seemed content to amble about not really making himself available for the forward pass. I thought Vanney's substitutions were again suspect, the first in particular bordered on insanity. Why on earth would you pull your most creative player on the night, in an area of the field you are struggling, and replace him with a player who is poor in retaining possession? That just put more pressure on a midfield that was already struggling. To make it worse he then subs off the one player who always gave us an outlet going forward in Edwards. Perhaps the switch to a 4-4-2 make this move a little more understandable but nevertheless we never really threatened down the flank from that point on.

At the end of the day I'm grateful for the three points, and the way we handled one of the league's most in form teams in that first half was encoyraging. However were it not for two brain farts by Larin we could well be empty handed tonight. Thank God for Giovinco...

Onwards and upwards !! :scarf:

Boy I saw this differently than you did. Vasquez is an entirely offensive player who, with Gio and Jozy, barely defends. Fantastic, but when you are defending a lead someone like Oso who is tenacious and always in the right position is a good substitution. I am not a fan of Cooper - he dives too much - but if it are trying to lock down a game, bringing him on for Edwards makes lots of sense. Bradley didn't look nearly as bad from my seat, and Jozy was a fantastic target man all night. But that's just what I saw.

[MightyDM]

I can't stop watching that save from 59'. SOTW? SOTY as far as I'm concerned. That's why you play to the whistle. That's why you never give up on a play you're in. Bono may not be the best keeper in the league by any stretch, but that's a save that shows his character and the character I want in every player on the pitch. Larin could have and should have buried that in the back of the netting. Bono could have watched him walk it in and I don't think anyone would really have called him on it. One guy played to the whistle. The other didn't.

Well done Bono. Well done.

Bravo indeed. Que est ce que pense, Canada?

[Auzzy]

Bono was great. So were Vazquez & Giovinco. Zavaleta & Co. did pretty well most of the time against Larin. Edwards really good until he faded in the 2nd half. Delgado as per usual lately: some really great play, interspersed with some real bone-headed stuff, overall positive though. At least he's willing to plan ahead, try some one-touch passing and moving into space, more than many others, and he's defensively decent.

Toledo sucks. What a fucking dick. You can just see how happy he was to give Bradley a yellow after the game. So many straight-up bad calls, plus nothing 50/50 plays called in Orlando's favour. At least he doesn't give as many reds as he used to. (Old Toledo would have given Bono a red.)

Lots of problems from TFC, starting even before the half when most of the team shut off completely & allowed a goal. Orlando easily could have walked away with undeserved 3 points. TFC had already fallen asleep before Orlando got the corner which led to the goal. And it continued the same way in the second half.

Sometimes Vanney seems way too predictable, like he has his three subs decided regardless of how everyone plays and how the game is going. Osorio for Vazquez was a ridiculous sub at the time. (They needed Vazquez to help maintain possession, and not hand the game to Orlando. Plus Osorio isn't really good defensively either.) And frankly, if Orlando can sub off Kaka, then Vanney should be able to take off Bradley when he fades like he did in the 2nd half. Give him a rest for Saturday. Only problem, who do you put in his place? If you look at the full roster, we're pretty weak in defensive midfield.

Alot of the time TFC is playing better than they ever have. A good part of the first half today; most of last weekend's game; etc. Really nice to see, and obviously a credit to Vanney and all the players. Lots of great passing and possession sequences. But sometimes I feel there's a bit of leadership and toughness missing. You could see TFC fading at the end of the first half, but nobody calls them to order on the field, and they come out of the halftime almost the same way, which tells me nobody turned it around in the locker room either. Maybe Bradley is too much of an introvert, and Vanney too much of a nice guy. Often that's a good thing, but not always.

[JoesphNdo]

shoring up our defence when we are up a goal isn't risky. Having three forwards on who don't defend is.

I think the opposite is true. Playing the way you played to dominate a team is not risky, playing a strategy of putting everyone behind the ball and handing the game to the opposition - that's risky. Blind luck kept us in a game that after 40 minutes we could have been winning by four. Good teams don't do that. When good teams are winning they keep pressing the advantage. Don't get me wrong this team is for sure a contender but Vanneys subs terrify me. There's a reason we can't beat ten men and I suspect it's the same reason we nearly blew that game tonight and why we've dropped points we didn't deserve too all season

[Jack]

The adjustment and subs worked. We won. Orlando were really pressing and pressuring us and we couldn't get a sniff of the ball. After the subs and moving to the 4-4-2, we had more possession again and even created a little bit of danger (albeit sporadically). But we definitely seemed to me to have more control over things after that tactical switch.

Yes, Cooper made that one dumb play, but he also made several good plays to keep us in possession and keep Orlando from threatening our goal. I thought the late tactical switch was a sharp move by Vanney and helped us grind out the result. You can't always win pretty, but the three points are still ours. That's how you get to the top of the table. Sure, maybe they missed some chances and we got lucky in our end, but we had a few close plays where a better bounce would have had us up 4-0, rather than 2.

[MightyDM]

It really worries me that Vanney would take off Vasquez when he did, that is absolutely handing the game to Orlando and only blind luck kept them out. Overall he's done a great job but I think his substitutions are boardering on awful and he needs to figure that out

Briliant player. But if you are trying to defend a lead, he is not your man.. and if you have four games in ten nights, a guy with long term injury issues like Vasquez might just need his minutes managed.

[Auzzy]

So we're tied for second with NYRB after they lost today, and we've played one less game. In fact, we've got the fifth-best PPG in the whole league.

BTW we were lucky that Johnson was ill today and not even in their 18. With the extra energy from a motivated Johnson in midfield, that game would have been much harder.

[JoesphNdo]

I strongly disagree. Strongly. Good players are who you want on the pitch when defending a lead. Barcelona don't sub off Messi when a goal up

[MightyDM]

I think the opposite is true. Playing the way you played to dominate a team is not risky, playing a strategy of putting everyone behind the ball and handing the game to the opposition - that's risky. Blind luck kept us in a game that after 40 minutes we could have been winning by four. Good teams don't do that. When good teams are winning they keep pressing the advantage. Don't get me wrong this team is for sure a contender but Vanneys subs terrify me. There's a reason we can't beat ten men and I suspect it's the same reason we nearly blew that game tonight and why we've dropped points we didn't deserve too all season

I agree that Vanneys strategy and subs need some considered action. But the good teams don't do this is simply wrong. See, Chelsea, manager Conte. Manchester zunited, manager Mourinho.

We werent handing the game to the opposition. We were absorbing pressure and releaseing the counter attack. Should have scored too. For me, that's not Vasquez game.

[Red CB Toronto]

A perfect 9 points from the three game home stand, great to see.

[Joe Kool]

My thoughts...liked the first half a lot. TFC fell asleep for the last minute which was too bad. Not sure what happened in the second half but not the same team at all. Great saves by Bono to keep us in it. Good tactical switch by Vanney to get control of the game again. Pointless yellow by Bradley for mouthing off to Toledo at the end after the game was over. We won. I will take it. Winning ugly is what good teams can do. On to Seattle.

[General Woolfe]

Boy I saw this differently than you did. Vasquez is an entirely offensive player who, with Gio and Jozy, barely defends. Fantastic, but when you are defending a lead someone like Oso who is tenacious and always in the right position is a good substitution. I am not a fan of Cooper - he dives too much - but if it are trying to lock down a game, bringing him on for Edwards makes lots of sense. Bradley didn't look nearly as bad from my seat, and Jozy was a fantastic target man all night. But that's just what I saw.
Surely offence is the best form of defence? It was far too early at that point to hunker down and try to hold what we had as Orlando were piling on pressure. Vazquez could have alieveate this by getting some forward moves going... or at least giving us the option of holding the ball, something he is very good at. In short, keep Vazquez on and we have a better chance of keeping the ball. I'd also argue if he were to be subbed for the reasons you state Cooper would have been a better replacement than Oso who is playing as poorly as I've ever seen him right now. He either runs into trouble, or misplaces a pass, either way possession is turned over. You could argue he needs gametime but surely that wasn't the time or place for that.

As for Bradley and Jozy we all can see the game different. I wouldn't argue your observation about Altidore being good in the target role when the ball is played directly too him. I just felt his was a bit lazy tonight in his movement. Contrast with Séba who chased after and won back possession several times tonight. I think Jozy was frustrated he wasn't getting anything from Toledo and it effected his attitude. The captain wasn't lacking in effort but I felt his passing was off and he had the tendency to take one turn too many when in possession and invariably ran into two or three of our opponents. It also bothers me a little that our backline seem to think every forward move must go through him (well, almost every forward move) These tight passing triangles we play in defensive midfield looking for space are starting to cause us to run into trouble as we get pushed further back with our opponents closing down space. There's nothing wrong with Hagglund or Zavaletta playing the long ball forward once in a while, it stops us becoming predictable.

[ag futbol]

That was Bono's ball. And who was covering Kaka? Should have had two on him in that situation. Not zero.
They showed the replay from an angle near the corner flag. Delgado fell asleep and drifted to the top of the box assuming the play was going in the other direction. Bradley too to a lesser extent.

[SirBobSaget]

I strongly disagree. Strongly. Good players are who you want on the pitch when defending a lead. Barcelona don't sub off Messi when a goal up

With 3 more games in the next 10 days you don't want your attacking midfielder burning himself out defending a lead. And this isn't subbing off a goal scoring threat like Messi. Giovinco wasn't subbed off. This is subbing of an offensive midfielder for a fresher more defensive minded mid.

[Blindside16]

That 2nd half was a horror show. We were lucky to come away with full points tonight. With all due respect to Seba the Man of the match should have gone to Bono tonight. Unbelievably effort between the sticks tonight. It wasn't pretty but I will take the 3 points and move onto the next one. Toledo needs to get hit by a truck. He took brutal to a whole new level tonight.

[SirBobSaget]

Watching live, Toledo seemed to be an exceptionally Toledo version of himself. Watching a tv feed was the impression the same? There were wahst seemed to be clear tugs not called and every 50/50 challenge called against TFC

[James17930]

Briliant player. But if you are trying to defend a lead, he is not your man.. and if you have four games in ten nights, a guy with long term injury issues like Vasquez might just need his minutes managed.

Agreed.

Managing minutes is going to crucial in May.

[mistercorporate]

All right, I'll say it. When Moor comes back, do we actually take Edwards out of the XI?

The guy creates goals.

With Moor back, Hagglund is back on the bench. Everyone else in our starting lineup, including Edwards, stays.

[James17930]

With Moor back, Hagglund is back on the bench. Everyone else in our starting lineup, including Edwards, stays.

I agree. Edwards can stay and the back three can rotate.

[OgtheDim]

I strongly disagree. Strongly. Good players are who you want on the pitch when defending a lead. ...

Vazquez in that situation was not a good enough player. There was a gigantic hole in the midfield in front of Bradley which they were exploiting. That is Vasquez. As much as he is great going forward, towards the 55th minute, he tired. So we leave Vasquez on and they bomb down the middle the rest of the game or we bring on a fresh shuttler who can also move the ball forward.

Vanney got the subs right.

Osorio to Vasquez to clog up the middle.
Ricketts for Altidore because of the yellow and to stretch their defence.
Cooper for Edwards moving to a 4-4-2.


*************

Both Jozy & Bradley on 3 yellows.

[Carter]

With 3 more games in the next 10 days you don't want your attacking midfielder burning himself out defending a lead. And this isn't subbing off a goal scoring threat like Messi. Giovinco wasn't subbed off. This is subbing of an offensive midfielder for a fresher more defensive minded mid.

LOL... Oso, defensive minded... oh man, you Mr. Saget are pure comedic gold...

I appreciate and respect your opinion, but Oso is most definitely not a defensive minded mid, he although is more defensive minded than Cooper...

If we were moving to a defensively minded mid we would have subbed on Benoit

[OgtheDim]

FWIW

https://twitter.com/11tegen11/status/860046659920769026

This shows me that Scott Sutter pretty much owned Edwards in the second half. Again, as much as I like Edwards going forward, against a concerted attack down his flank, he's not a Justin Morrow. (you know, the guy who before Moor went down we were calling the best LWB in the league)

[TFC Tifoso]

what a great day!! First Juve in UCL then TFC at night....excellent!

though we may have been a bit lucky to get the full 3, I'll certainly take it!

the Vasquez sub was a good one to me, as I have a feeling he'll get the start on the weekend and needed some rest.
Caldwell said something that I though was bang on about Vasquez during the broadcast last night, and that is, "He might not be the best TFC player, but in the last few games he's been the most influential."
I thought that was perfect....to me he completes the team.
Going forward, he pulls the creative strings, and that now allows Bradley to hang further back to help the defense in case of a counter, so he's not doing the chicken dance running up and down the middle of the field all game and getting caught.
It also allows Giovinco to stay closer to the attacking 3rd, not having to drop down as much trying to pick up the ball just past midfield to create.
Then both Jozy AND Giovinco can stay close to the opponents net and focus on letting the ball make sweet soccer love to the back of the ol' onion bag.
Too many times in the past couple of years, Giovinco has had to take on being creator as well....now he can choose his spot to do that when he likes, instead of having to do it.

[Joe Kool]

I find it funny reading some of Kreis' comments of the game. Orlando is a good team this year but not as good as they think they are. He said the second half their team looked like themselves and showed they can compete with teams like TFC. In a way yes but only if teams like TFC start to not play like themselves like TFC did last night. That was the only way they were able to compete with TFC otherwise TFC would have dominated most of the game and looked much more comfortable than they did with the victory. Instead we struggled to hold onto the win and we had to rely on a little luck. Too bad we didn't make the tactical change a little earlier because we were looking more comfortable again and looking like we could score at the end again once switching to a 4-4-2.

[Ultra & Proud]

I didn't like the second half either but I understood it. Orlando adjusted and it seemed that every time we pushed back and would start to mount any pressure we would get called for a dodgy foul (usually on Jozy) and it would derail our momentum. Hard to gain any ground when Toledo is clearly against you. That was pure MLS 2.0 officiating. I hadn't seen anything like that for that long in a match since maybe years 4 or 5. Nothing in recent memory was close to this in terms of being end to end abominable.

[Fort York Redcoat]

I don't disagree.I think both of our current options are an upgrade. I just don't think he was treated completely fairly by many.

Oh i definitely agree with that when applied to fans. There were some extreme opinions on him while he was here. I don't think the mistreatment was so much by management is all. He can be fun to watch.

[OgtheDim]

https://twitter.com/RussellPhotos/status/860100754065043456

Great photos of the one save.

[MightyDM]

Surely offence is the best form of defence? It was far too early at that point to hunker down and try to hold what we had as Orlando were piling on pressure. Vazquez could have alieveate this by getting some forward moves going... or at least giving us the option of holding the ball, something he is very good at. In short, keep Vazquez on and we have a better chance of keeping the ball. I'd also argue if he were to be subbed for the reasons you state Cooper would have been a better replacement than Oso who is playing as poorly as I've ever seen him right now. He either runs into trouble, or misplaces a pass, either way possession is turned over. You could argue he needs gametime but surely that wasn't the time or place for that.

As for Bradley and Jozy we all can see the game different. I wouldn't argue your observation about Altidore being good in the target role when the ball is played directly too him. I just felt his was a bit lazy tonight in his movement. Contrast with Séba who chased after and won back possession several times tonight. I think Jozy was frustrated he wasn't getting anything from Toledo and it effected his attitude. The captain wasn't lacking in effort but I felt his passing was off and he had the tendency to take one turn too many when in possession and invariably ran into two or three of our opponents. It also bothers me a little that our backline seem to think every forward move must go through him (well, almost every forward move) These tight passing triangles we play in defensive midfield looking for space are starting to cause us to run into trouble as we get pushed further back with our opponents closing down space. There's nothing wrong with Hagglund or Zavaletta playing the long ball forward once in a while, it stops us becoming predictable.

the second part here are fair and interesting observations. Thanks.

[Ossington Mental Youth]

Briliant player. But if you are trying to defend a lead, he is not your man.. and if you have four games in ten nights, a guy with long term injury issues like Vasquez might just need his minutes managed.

I think the argument isn't defending the lead but pushing it further/running away with it

[molenshtain]

we have four games in two weeks. What's the logic behind overexerting one of your key players when your already up a goal with 30 minutes left? It's more likely we would have given up another goal than scoring one if Vazquez stayed on, leaving him tired for the next game and 2 points dropped.

It was a fine decision by Vanney. The idea that some people have that we should never take off our best players no matter what the circumstances are is naive at best.

[TFC Tifoso]

we have four games in two weeks. What's the logic behind overexerting one of your key players when your already up a goal with 30 minutes left? It's more likely we would have given up another goal than scoring one if Vazquez stayed on, leaving him tired for the next game and 2 points dropped.

It was a fine decision by Vanney. The idea that some people have that we should never take off our best players no matter what the circumstances are is naive at best.

totally agree about Vasquez.....seeing just how influential he is seeming to be and considering the number of games we have/had over the next little bit, I'd much rather see him playing 120-140 mins over the course of 2 games say, than 90 in one and 0 the next....

[notthesun]

Vazquez is currently leading the league in assists... just in case anyone still isn't sold on him, somehow.

[69Chevy396]

They showed the replay from an angle near the corner flag. Delgado fell asleep and drifted to the top of the box assuming the play was going in the other direction. Bradley too to a lesser extent.
I agree. Delgado was awful, and was sleeping on the goal. There were several opportunities early in the game where TFC were moving the ball beautifully, and each time, nothing came of it because Delgado gets an Osorio brain fart whenever he is challenged.

Good overall performance. Lots of positives. I think Edwards is the best non designated player ever signed by TFC. Most exciting pkayer on the team after Giovinco and Altidore. Miles and miles ahead of Osorio, Delgado and Cooper.
It will be hard keeping him in MLS particularly with his incredibly low salary. I hope they don't pull off another dumb Edu move with this player.

[OgtheDim]

Edwards kicked the ball from his own side out to the far right and out of bounds. That sort of bone headed panic is the definition of a USL move. That started the sequence that led to the Orlando goal.

Its been 4 games.

When Moor comes back, Edwards sits.

[Oldtimer]

BTW we were lucky that Johnson was ill today and not even in their 18. With the extra energy from a motivated Johnson in midfield, that game would have been much harder.

They are lucky we didn't have Moor.

[reggie]

Edwards kicked the ball from his own side out to the far right and out of bounds. That sort of bone headed panic is the definition of a USL move. That started the sequence that led to the Orlando goal.

Its been 4 games.

When Moor comes back, Edwards sits.
yes i agree..but what about that usl bonehead play when he set up seba for the first goal and jozy last week and saved a goal v atl,he is what he is a 21 year old who has never played WB before.

[OgtheDim]

yes i agree..but what about that usl bonehead play when he set up seba for the first goal and jozy last week and saved a goal v atl,he is what he is a 21 year old who has never played WB before.

Great plays & as I've said, he's really good offensively and not bad defensively (although pretty much every player on this team but Seba has made a goal line clearance sometime in the last couple of years). BUT, we have better options then not bad defensively. Bonehead plays that are that egregious get you sitting. That goal doesn't happen and we cruise through the second half. He also gave up way too much pressure in the last couple of games allowing both Houston and Orlando to park their RB's 2/3 of the way up the pitch. There is a reason why Orlando was running almost everything in the second half down that side, and no it wasn't Morrow.

The way to beat a 3-5-2 is to find the midfield weak spot and overwhelm it. Orlando found two points last night - right behind Vasquez and right at Edwards. The sort of pressure and long term lack of possession we saw in the second halves vs Houston and Orlando is not sustainable - part of that is due to the lack of communication & experience when Irwin & Moor are both out. But some of that is due to them running plays at Edwards.

Edwards sits because Morrow is better & more balanced while Moor with Haglund & Zavaleta is a proven back 3. He'll come on when Morrow needs a rest or if Mavinga flames out and one of the back 3 need a rest.

He's young. He'll learn. And its either him or Morgan to replace Morrow next season (if Morrow leaves with Free Agency) or in 4 seasons (retirement)

[reggie]

you can blame some other guys for that goal also and vanney not for changing the formation earlier he is so stubborn with that 3-5-2.
but i agree morrow always should start,i would like to see him sub for jozy late game in certain situations.

[OgtheDim]

Tell you what though....discussions about depth are a lot more fun then discussions about ongoing ineptitude. :)

[ag futbol]

Edwards kicked the ball from his own side out to the far right and out of bounds. That sort of bone headed panic is the definition of a USL move. That started the sequence that led to the Orlando goal.

Its been 4 games.

When Moor comes back, Edwards sits.
Come on man, that's micro analysis on one thing rather than the whole picture. There were lots of mistakes on the sequence leading up to that goal. Many of which were far more criminal. To pin point it on that is ridiculous. Also silly not to acknowledge the amount Edwards is contributing to our attack when calling for him to be moved to the bench.

If anyone, I think Delgado is going to have to battle with Cooper and Osorio. He's made a lot of mistakes that have gone unpunished.. forget one hashed clearance.

[Detroit_TFC]

Tell you what though....discussions about depth are a lot more fun then discussions about ongoing ineptitude. :)

Definitely true.

[Bobo]

It really worries me that Vanney would take off Vasquez when he did, that is absolutely handing the game to Orlando and only blind luck kept them out. Overall he's done a great job but I think his substitutions are boardering on awful and he needs to figure that out


Vazquez seems to have subpar fitness levels and doesn't work hard enough defensively (perhaps one the result of the other, although he seems to have improved somewhat). I'm all for subbing him off every time TFC has a lead and is getting overloaded in the mid.

[MightyDM]

Great plays & as I've said, he's really good offensively and not bad defensively (although pretty much every player on this team but Seba has made a goal line clearance sometime in the last couple of years). BUT, we have better options then not bad defensively. Bonehead plays that are that egregious get you sitting. That goal doesn't happen and we cruise through the second half. He also gave up way too much pressure in the last couple of games allowing both Houston and Orlando to park their RB's 2/3 of the way up the pitch. There is a reason why Orlando was running almost everything in the second half down that side, and no it wasn't Morrow.

The way to beat a 3-5-2 is to find the midfield weak spot and overwhelm it. Orlando found two points last night - right behind Vasquez and right at Edwards. The sort of pressure and long term lack of possession we saw in the second halves vs Houston and Orlando is not sustainable - part of that is due to the lack of communication & experience when Irwin & Moor are both out. But some of that is due to them running plays at Edwards.

Edwards sits because Morrow is better & more balanced while Moor with Haglund & Zavaleta is a proven back 3. He'll come on when Morrow needs a rest or if Mavinga flames out and one of the back 3 need a rest.

He's young. He'll learn. And its either him or Morgan to replace Morrow next season (if Morrow leaves with Free Agency) or in 4 seasons (retirement)

great analysis. Really interesting. We also forget that wing back is Morgans best position. He has played well, in limited minutes, there.

[Oldtimer]

you can blame some other guys for that goal also and vanney not for changing the formation earlier he is so stubborn with that 3-5-2.


Nobody on this thread suggested changing formations to handle the situation, so it's not like it was an obvious move. It was a solid tactical move by Vanney, and also is a tip off that he is still having the club practice multiple formations (something he's probably been hiding from other teams). Suggesting that he should be criticized for not doing it earlier is more than a little harsh.

[SirBobSaget]

LOL... Oso, defensive minded... oh man, you Mr. Saget are pure comedic gold...

I appreciate and respect your opinion, but Oso is most definitely not a defensive minded mid, he although is more defensive minded than Cooper...

If we were moving to a defensively minded mid we would have subbed on Benoit

Osorio is more defensive than Alvarez. Cheyrou doesn't play the Attacking mid role. They needed to keep pressing the Orlando D because they had decent distribution at the back from Spector. That's why Osorio was subbed in because he was fresh and presses very well. Why are we questioning Vanney when he is getting wins? As if we know any better.

[Carter]

Osorio is more defensive than Alvarez. Cheyrou doesn't play the Attacking mid role. They needed to keep pressing the Orlando D because they had decent distribution at the back from Spector. That's why Osorio was subbed in because he was fresh and presses very well. Why are we questioning Vanney when he is getting wins? As if we know any better.

Not questioning Vanney nor did I state I know better than him...

So did he sub Oso on for attacking mid? Or Defensive Mid, you've said both positions in your 2 posts with me.

Cheyrou is the best option off the bench for defensive midfielder position.


Vasquez (I'm guessing you meant not Alvarez) isn't a box to box midfielder, nor is Oso for that matter, Oso lacks vision and common knowledge. He is notorious for holding the ball too long, I'll only hope this gets better with more playing time. He also needs to fix his socks...

[C.Ronaldo]

Sitting edwards would be a mistake. His rate of improvement is unbelievable. Litterally improves each game

It would like taking a kids books away when he just started to learn to read

[paul-collins]

Osorio is more defensive than Alvarez. Cheyrou doesn't play the Attacking mid role. They needed to keep pressing the Orlando D because they had decent distribution at the back from Spector. That's why Osorio was subbed in because he was fresh and presses very well. Why are we questioning Vanney when he is getting wins? As if we know any better.
#VanneyOut :p

[Fort York Redcoat]

This really was a dream match. Seeing Larin do so well but not get one past Bono was an immense treat.

[shwade]

Sitting edwards would be a mistake. His rate of improvement is unbelievable. Litterally improves each game

It would like taking a kids books away when he just started to learn to read

Agreed. He gets more exciting every game and his runs and passes usually find someone.

[SirBobSaget]

Not questioning Vanney nor did I state I know better than him...

So did he sub Oso on for attacking mid? Or Defensive Mid, you've said both positions in your 2 posts with me.

Cheyrou is the best option off the bench for defensive midfielder position.


Vasquez (I'm guessing you meant not Alvarez) isn't a box to box midfielder, nor is Oso for that matter, Oso lacks vision and common knowledge. He is notorious for holding the ball too long, I'll only hope this gets better with more playing time. He also needs to fix his socks...

i never said defensive mid. I wrote more DEFENSIVE MINDED. As an attacking midfielder you can defend up the field by pressing the defenders. And I never wrote that Vazquez is a box to box mid or that Osorio is.

Osorio is the natural late game sub for Vazquez. That's how Vanney has designed it.