Here's why we currently suck and how to fix it

[jloome]

There are several reasons for TFC's current downfall and the fact that we have no realistic strike partnership option to go to is only one of them.

• We have no positional consistency. By playing an unfamiliar and defensive 4-5-1 for most of the season we now have a situation where our two central midfielders, Guevara and Robert, are both trying to play two ways; the camera actually caught them arguing twice during the game, and it looked very much like Guevara was telling Robbo to stay on his side of the fucking pitch and to stay back.

Equally, the wings are defensively fraught with problems by having two offense-minded fullbacks in Wynne and Brennan. Either you play with your full backs slightly recessed and have an attacking option from the centre, or you have the fullbacks crossing over and play with two D-midfielders. But you can't do both at the same time, which is what we've been doing.

No one appears to be coaching movement, with the exception of some support play on the wings. Our strikers aren't driving into the box to meet crosses, which generally fall into empty space or to defenders. Neither is Guevara, who at the very least should be hovering near the top of the box to pick up the junk goals the keepers spill.

Robbo is pushing up way too often, and needs to stay back, ala Shalrie Joseph at New England. He c an't fucking shoot anyway, so unless we're packing the offensive end due to trailing late, what the fuck is he doing there.

Our two central defenders are constantly ball watching and out of position, although the aforementioned problem with the fullbacks contributes to this by pulling them wide. Witness salt lake's first good chance last night, when two of their players were able to break unmarked through the middle, because Ty marshall was pulled right to cover for the missing Jimmy B.

The FIX: Clarify roles and responsibilities offensively, and choose a route to play through. It's either the wings and one centre mid or the wings and one or two fullbacks. Can't be all of the above, or we're caught up too often. Moving to a diamond with robbo back full-time and guevara right behidn the two strikers might accomplish this if the players are unable to get it right otherwise. Robbo, I believe, wants to be a team-leading playmaker when allwe really need from him is good tackling and marking.

• Our closing pressure is non-existent. We're giving the opposition waaaay too much time on the ball. This results in Robbo being pulled away from his anchoring position to help with cover for the guys who run loose, which leads to open space for our opponents to move into and set up on our end.

FIX: Move to full-field pressure in the early stages of games. Make them play a trap-breaker. If we give them half the field all the time, their playmakers simpyl sit back in their own end until everyone ahead of him has broke into our defensive zone and started to set up movement, and then we're doomed to ball chasing.

• Our marking is poor. We're playing zones, which makes sense with the amount of ball movement in this league; but we still have to remember to man-mark on set pieces, which seems to be a constant problem. This has led to multiple goals this year, including the first header last night and Roberto Brown's goal for Montreal. Additionally, offensive players (except Ricketts, who has been defensively very solid) aren't tracking back to help out. Combined with a back line that sits deep instead of pressuring the ball early, and our opponetns are left with just too much time.

FIX: Run up the usual man assignment chart in advance of kickoff. Whomever blows coverage and gives up a goal gets one strike, then sits the next game. There have to be consequences to doing things badly.

• Our movement off the ball is almost non-existent which leads to our interplay being entirely positional but without purpose. We can tic-tac-toe it around an offensive end with the best of them. But because no one is moving in to open lanes and forcing defenders to move as well, there is no space for anyone to run into. The only guy affecting any kind of movement-based offense is Guevara, and unfortunately it doesn't make up -- in my perspective -- for his almost complete absence of defence.

FIX: This team desparately needs some set offences. We can't keep relying on Guevara rolling through balls through six defenders, we need to stretch their defensives by shifting our offense from one side of the field to the other. Right now, we're relying on a fast-break style of hoofing a lead ball to a winger, then having him beat his fullback and cross in.....to whom, exactly? We'd do a damn site better if Robert or Ricketts would hold up the ball and get short passing support in their end, which would pull their defenders over to that side of the zone and allow our other winger and centre mid to come in less covered.



• Robbo, while a good tackler, is absolutely shite in the air. So one way for teams to get around us breaking them up in the mid is to play the cross-field ball a lot. It's been working.

Fix: Stretch the pitch for awhile offensively ourselves by playing with one winger recessed whenever his opposite number is forward, so that the same option of swinging the ball wide to the other side exists for TFC. If we already have players in the same area as our opponents , we negate their long ball for awhile and force them to go with short movement and passing.

• We lack on-field leadership. I see Robbo yelling at Velez, and Velez saying "ok, ok". It's not "Ok". It's never "Ok". We need an on-field, balls-to-the-wall leader who will vocalize that there are only two ways to play in this league: very fucking intense, or very fucking defeated. Someone needs to be generating that on-field urgency.

FIX: I'm not sure how you fix this, because this was one of the knocks against just about all of our former UK players; Robert, Ricketts, Robbo, Jimmy; none of these guys made it as a first-teamer past their initial forays over there, because they lacked the competitive intensity required to dominate. What we need is a new team leader to come in and demonstrate what it means (this might be why they're so high on Dickov) and for Carver to scare the shit out of these guys. He's obviously trying with Cunningham, but he's hardly theonly problem. Right now, I would say that the only two guys leaving it all out there are Ricketts and Robbo. Robert does for about two-thirds of the match, then gives up when he realizes who he's playing with.

• The striker situation.

Fix: Self-evident. I really wish we knew what goes on behind the scenes because it's very easy to find strikers who would be goal scoring machiens in this league and don't seem that valued where they are now. I'm not sure why it's such a problem for Mo, and if it is just the turf, I'd expect him to have said that by now. But being an ex-athlete, I suspect a lack of humility and scouting contacts has more to do with it.

I'll defend Carver as much as anyone, because I believe he's brought a level of professionalism and forward-thinking that was desparately required by a young franchise. But when there's this much wrong, it falls on him, I'm afraid. Having said that, six months in is a pretty stupid and premature time to fire a coach.

If we have a third season with a team full of talent but this same lack of cohesive comprehension of the game, I figure he's gonzo alonzo.

[trane]

I agree for the most part, the only thing that I would say is that I like the 4-2-3-1, but the defensive mids can at most push up one at the time. But as for the back four I agree with you when you have both the RB and LB pushing up and being cauhgt, plus the CB up to far it is a huge probelem, and we see the results in almost every away game.

[flatpicker]

wow!
that was an educational read!

I have been a fan of the game for many years, but I'm still learning the fine intricacies of tactics and positioning, and reading an analysis like that is quite enlightening.

[Nerepis]

Thanks jloome,

Very well thought out and written, something in short supply at times in this forum. Great job.

[Smenge]

Most of these comments and suggestions could apply to 80% of the clubs in MLS. I am afraid, what is happening in Toronto, is our expectations far exceed the reality we are facing in this league. Compared to the Euro, it really is bush league stuff...but still better than league championship (:p).

Actually, I didn't think they played poorly last night. A striker would have made the difference, and that is something you can say for virtually any club, anywhere....not many chances to score in soccer, you have to exploit the few that you get.......

[DVS]

Most of these comments and suggestions could apply to 80% of the clubs in MLS. I am afraid, what is happening in Toronto, is our expectations far exceed the reality we are facing in this league. Compared to the Euro, it really is bush league stuff...but still better than league championship (:p).

Actually, I didn't think they played poorly last night. A striker would have made the difference, and that is something you can say for virtually any club, anywhere....not many chances to score in soccer, you have to exploit the few that you get.......

QFT.

Although a really well thought out post. TFC wins a couple on the road no one will be saying boo about their preformance anyhow

[Bobo]

QFT.

Although a really well thought out post. TFC wins a couple on the road no one will be saying boo about their preformance anyhow

Until they stink it up again and we see the exact same problems that were mentioned. You guys remember the days when TFC were stringing positive results? Everyone thought we were the best in the league. At our best we're inconsistent.....which I'd happily take over consistently disappointing.

[jloome]

There's a lot of truth in the statement that these are league-wide issues. But the very fact that there is so much roster parity points to the fact that these fundamental issues being resolved are what make teams like New England and Houston perenially strong. In fact, DC United is a great example of a team that, at the beginning of the season, looked very much like Toronto does now, because it wasn't taking care of these basic issues.

[Detroit_TFC]

Well done, thanks.

[Toronto_Bhoy]

^^Good one Bobo!

[Smenge]

New England were losing two, or three solid players this season, so they quickly signed the two African gems, and are much better for it....I would say they were smart, and lucky at the same time.....two such players would make TFC much, much better, very quickly......there is so little between these teams, that in the case of TFC, a proven goal scorer, even a return of Dichio, would make a huge difference.

[mauser09]

I say TFC hire jloome as our manager and coach, sounds like he knows what hes talking about.

[I_AM_CANADIAN]

A lot of good points, but remember, this team is only two years old, and a lot of our current players were just brought in this year. Velez and Marshall are hardly Gary Pallister and Denis Irwin in central defence, for one thing, and secondly, it takes a long time for players to get to know their teammates well enough to anticipate what they're going to do. A lot of our problems have been due to mis-communication, guys not moving back to cover for players out of position, guys going unmarked on free kicks, blah blah blah. I think that with some time, the defence will sort itself out.


As for the 4-5-1 formation, JC had no choice but to use it. Dichio is the only relatively competent striker we have. And it wasn't defensive in my opinion when it was working, we kept possession in midfield, Dichio held up the ball in the centre of the pitch, we stretched their defence by taking advantage or Robert and Ricketts' skill on the wings. The KC and Real Salt Lake games at the beginning of the season were a perfect example of how effective it was. We played a great short passing game and created a number of chances.

Closing down has been an issue this year for the team. It's especially important that our strikers start pressing, Cunningham is a lazy ass and just strolls around, Dichio would close down, that prevents the other team from just going route one and hoofing it forward, and it often prevents attacks from developing.

We have to stay organized in the midfield as well. For the last ten or so matches I've seen our guys running all over the effin place, I don't know who's supposed to be playing where. That is a HUGE issue.

And most importantly, this stupid striker business has been going on far too long. In the next couple weeks, I hope Cunningham is off playing somewhere else, and we finally have our clinical finisher. I'm sure all the guys on the team are hung up on that as well, once it's over, we can all finally just concentrate on the football.

[Troll]

wall of text.



Cliffs?

[Derko]

Thanks jloome,

Very well thought out and written, something in short supply at times in this forum. Great job.

Great insight of tactics and TFC's lack of.
Cudos

[trane]

There's a lot of truth in the statement that these are league-wide issues. But the very fact that there is so much roster parity points to the fact that these fundamental issues being resolved are what make teams like New England and Houston perenially strong. In fact, DC United is a great example of a team that, at the beginning of the season, looked very much like Toronto does now, because it wasn't taking care of these basic issues.


That is just it, we talk about getting players, but that is just part of the picture, if we can play fundamentaly sound football in a league that is greatly lacking in tactical fundamentals we can do great things. This is why I was excited about Carver, I thought that this is what he would bring to TFC, but the last little while has left me wondering.

[tlear]

Awesome analysis.

But why is 4-5-1 unfamiliar? It also does not have to be defensive.. without Dichio though we really lack that 1 in the end. Playing 16 year old as a single striker for 90 mins is a bit too much. Maybe when Barret gets here, he seemed to do ok as single striker in Chicago

[CoachGT]

Well said, but I still think there are a couple of more points to be made.

We're giving up the first goal on the road frequently. This leaves us in the position of fighting back, which may mean rushing through the game plan and increasing the urgency to create more pressure. It would be nice to score first on the road just to give us a little more breathing room, and perhaps instill a little confidence in the game plan.

Lately, we seem to be giving the ball away much too easily, and that appears to be a confidence/trust issue. Early in games, we move the ball, although not always well, at least to open space. However, as games progress, players seem to try and hold the ball a little longer. Holding the ball attracts more opponents, and the higher pressure usually results in a turnover. Last night it happened several times. Not to pick on him, but how many times did Robinson try to move through the midfield with three bodies within arms length? Robbo may be a good tackler, but he didn't show a lot of ability to retain control of a ball under pressure. Others follow suit, and pretty soon the ball movement we look for ends up in a turnover and a rush in the other direction. Thankfully, most of the time we have equal or superior numbers back.

While I understand the attraction to a 4-5-1, we certainly don't have the strength up front to handle the "1" part. For that to be effective, the striker has to be able to hold the ball up high against hard pressure, often 2 opponents. Even Dichio isn't suited to that game unless there is speed on the wings to push the ball to. Maybe that's where Wynne could be more effective. If that strong front man isn't there, the ball has a tendancy to get hung up in the midfield, under hard pressure from 2 or more opponents, and then, well, see the point above.

[Smenge]

jloome, which paper do you write for?

[jloome]

jloome, which paper do you write for?

These days, no one really. I'm editing the comment pages for the edmonton sun and have the odd column in (think Toronto Sun might be using one mine tomorrow). Have covered a lot of different beats and issues over the years, though, did some enterprise feature stuff, crime, politics, had a soccer column in Edmonton for a couple of years.

But I'm my own industry's biggest critic, so don't get me started on the whole newspaper thing, particularly when it comes to soccer; beaten my head against that brick wall a few too many times to be healthy.

tlear, the only reason I suggest the 451 is "unfamiliar" is because most of these guys, in England, would only EVER have playeda 4-5-1 as a defensive formation, as the modified 4-3-3 some teams are playing now (man utd being the most obvious) is relatively new. I explained this badly in the original thread; essentially, Carver is trying to develop an offensive 451 with a bunch of guys who are entirely accustomed to it being defensive. So while Guevara, for example, should be cheating up to support the lone striker, he's usually back closer to parallel with robinson. And while the wingers should be on parallel with the forward or just slightly recessed, they're often dropping back too far, and never cutting inside early enough to make the formation effective (Ricketts has been the better at this and in some cases it has been very dangerous; but neither is doing it consistently).

Plus, in that scenario the wingbacks have to play mostly a defensive role, or we end up with six people in the offensive zone at all times, which is an imbalance.

[trane]

I do not understand what Guevarra is doing in that respect as the attacking mid I almost expect him to play almost as far up as an in the hole striker. But he seems to be drifting around. I am OK with Robet and Ricketts, for the most part. I do not like both Defensive mids pressing up to the box at the same time, at least one should stay relatively back to support the attack , provide and option back, collect balls kicked back by the defense, but still be in a good defensive position. Groing up in the Italy in era of catenacio I get nervous when see any back in the offesive zone. However, I have grown to like seein one of the outside backs push, but then they also have to drop back, to no deeper in the offensive zone then just past mid.

[jloome]

but then they also have to drop back, to no deeper in the offensive zone then just past mid.

This is key; and when this is the case, we need the other back dropping to just in front of the backline, in case he has to fill the opposing centre half role when the defense shifts to cover the hole the attacking fullback would leave if caught high up on the pitch.

[Rochdale]

There are several reasons for TFC's current downfall and the fact that we have no realistic strike partnership option to go to is only one of them.

• We have no positional consistency. By playing an unfamiliar and defensive 4-5-1 for most of the season we now have a situation where our two central midfielders, Guevara and Robert, are both trying to play two ways; the camera actually caught them arguing twice during the game, and it looked very much like Guevara was telling Robbo to stay on his side of the fucking pitch and to stay back.

Equally, the wings are defensively fraught with problems by having two offense-minded fullbacks in Wynne and Brennan. Either you play with your full backs slightly recessed and have an attacking option from the centre, or you have the fullbacks crossing over and play with two D-midfielders. But you can't do both at the same time, which is what we've been doing.

No one appears to be coaching movement, with the exception of some support play on the wings. Our strikers aren't driving into the box to meet crosses, which generally fall into empty space or to defenders. Neither is Guevara, who at the very least should be hovering near the top of the box to pick up the junk goals the keepers spill.

Robbo is pushing up way too often, and needs to stay back, ala Shalrie Joseph at New England. He c an't fucking shoot anyway, so unless we're packing the offensive end due to trailing late, what the fuck is he doing there.

Our two central defenders are constantly ball watching and out of position, although the aforementioned problem with the fullbacks contributes to this by pulling them wide. Witness salt lake's first good chance last night, when two of their players were able to break unmarked through the middle, because Ty marshall was pulled right to cover for the missing Jimmy B.

The FIX: Clarify roles and responsibilities offensively, and choose a route to play through. It's either the wings and one centre mid or the wings and one or two fullbacks. Can't be all of the above, or we're caught up too often. Moving to a diamond with robbo back full-time and guevara right behidn the two strikers might accomplish this if the players are unable to get it right otherwise. Robbo, I believe, wants to be a team-leading playmaker when allwe really need from him is good tackling and marking.

• Our closing pressure is non-existent. We're giving the opposition waaaay too much time on the ball. This results in Robbo being pulled away from his anchoring position to help with cover for the guys who run loose, which leads to open space for our opponents to move into and set up on our end.

FIX: Move to full-field pressure in the early stages of games. Make them play a trap-breaker. If we give them half the field all the time, their playmakers simpyl sit back in their own end until everyone ahead of him has broke into our defensive zone and started to set up movement, and then we're doomed to ball chasing.

• Our marking is poor. We're playing zones, which makes sense with the amount of ball movement in this league; but we still have to remember to man-mark on set pieces, which seems to be a constant problem. This has led to multiple goals this year, including the first header last night and Roberto Brown's goal for Montreal. Additionally, offensive players (except Ricketts, who has been defensively very solid) aren't tracking back to help out. Combined with a back line that sits deep instead of pressuring the ball early, and our opponetns are left with just too much time.

FIX: Run up the usual man assignment chart in advance of kickoff. Whomever blows coverage and gives up a goal gets one strike, then sits the next game. There have to be consequences to doing things badly.

• Our movement off the ball is almost non-existent which leads to our interplay being entirely positional but without purpose. We can tic-tac-toe it around an offensive end with the best of them. But because no one is moving in to open lanes and forcing defenders to move as well, there is no space for anyone to run into. The only guy affecting any kind of movement-based offense is Guevara, and unfortunately it doesn't make up -- in my perspective -- for his almost complete absence of defence.

FIX: This team desparately needs some set offences. We can't keep relying on Guevara rolling through balls through six defenders, we need to stretch their defensives by shifting our offense from one side of the field to the other. Right now, we're relying on a fast-break style of hoofing a lead ball to a winger, then having him beat his fullback and cross in.....to whom, exactly? We'd do a damn site better if Robert or Ricketts would hold up the ball and get short passing support in their end, which would pull their defenders over to that side of the zone and allow our other winger and centre mid to come in less covered.



• Robbo, while a good tackler, is absolutely shite in the air. So one way for teams to get around us breaking them up in the mid is to play the cross-field ball a lot. It's been working.

Fix: Stretch the pitch for awhile offensively ourselves by playing with one winger recessed whenever his opposite number is forward, so that the same option of swinging the ball wide to the other side exists for TFC. If we already have players in the same area as our opponents , we negate their long ball for awhile and force them to go with short movement and passing.

• We lack on-field leadership. I see Robbo yelling at Velez, and Velez saying "ok, ok". It's not "Ok". It's never "Ok". We need an on-field, balls-to-the-wall leader who will vocalize that there are only two ways to play in this league: very fucking intense, or very fucking defeated. Someone needs to be generating that on-field urgency.

FIX: I'm not sure how you fix this, because this was one of the knocks against just about all of our former UK players; Robert, Ricketts, Robbo, Jimmy; none of these guys made it as a first-teamer past their initial forays over there, because they lacked the competitive intensity required to dominate. What we need is a new team leader to come in and demonstrate what it means (this might be why they're so high on Dickov) and for Carver to scare the shit out of these guys. He's obviously trying with Cunningham, but he's hardly theonly problem. Right now, I would say that the only two guys leaving it all out there are Ricketts and Robbo. Robert does for about two-thirds of the match, then gives up when he realizes who he's playing with.

• The striker situation.

Fix: Self-evident. I really wish we knew what goes on behind the scenes because it's very easy to find strikers who would be goal scoring machiens in this league and don't seem that valued where they are now. I'm not sure why it's such a problem for Mo, and if it is just the turf, I'd expect him to have said that by now. But being an ex-athlete, I suspect a lack of humility and scouting contacts has more to do with it.

I'll defend Carver as much as anyone, because I believe he's brought a level of professionalism and forward-thinking that was desparately required by a young franchise. But when there's this much wrong, it falls on him, I'm afraid. Having said that, six months in is a pretty stupid and premature time to fire a coach.

If we have a third season with a team full of talent but this same lack of cohesive comprehension of the game, I figure he's gonzo alonzo.

Who do you blame for the above, the coach. Carver has been a big dissapointment. He should take a good hard look at himself instead of bagging certain players, media and officials.

[Oldtimer]

jloome, good analysis. It's rare to see a journalist with such footy insight (why aren't you writing for the Star instead of Cathal Kelly?).

[invictusTFC]

This is key; and when this is the case, we need the other back dropping to just in front of the backline, in case he has to fill the opposing centre half role when the defense shifts to cover the hole the attacking fullback would leave if caught high up on the pitch.

I'm wondering that with our current squad we maybe better suited to play a 4-3-3 with an inverted midfield triangle.

-------------Sutton-------------

Wynne---Velez---Marshall---Brennan

-------------Robbo-------------

------Edu----------Guevara----

Ricketts------------------Robert
-------------Dichio-----------

This allows our more offensive minded LB and RB to push up but only so far.
Robert and Ricketts can play as out and out attacking wingers (which they do for the most part anyways). Edu can play more of a box to box type role whereas Guevara will have the room to pull the offensive and creative strings.

[trane]

^ That looks like the 4-1-4-1 Italy was playing against Spain, in the Euros. It is hard to brake down, and it can still creat many chances. I like it, I whish Italy had played it all tournament.

I do not understand why there is such a lack of fundamental football in the MLS.

[Barbarez]

Maybe our team sucks because our players are at best, 4th English division calibre players?

[TicTacTabarnack]

wow!
that was an educational read!

I have been a fan of the game for many years, but I'm still learning the fine intricacies of tactics and positioning, and reading an analysis like that is quite enlightening.

I agree ... Definitely helps us become much more educated on the finer things involved in the beautiful game.

jloome can you write an after-game analysis each week? This would result in much better threads than "The World is Ending" "Cunny Sucks" (which he does) "Carver's Balls!" "Sign a Striker FFS!", etc.

[tlear]

Yes would definitely love to read your analysis after every game

[ExiledRed]

A lot of good points, but remember, this team is only two years old, and a lot of our current players were just brought in this year. Velez and Marshall are hardly Gary Pallister and Denis Irwin in central defence, for one thing, and secondly, it takes a long time for players to get to know their teammates well enough to anticipate what they're going to do. A lot of our problems have been due to mis-communication, guys not moving back to cover for players out of position, guys going unmarked on free kicks, blah blah blah. I think that with some time, the defence will sort itself out.


This is an overused excuse.

The olympic teams going out will have had less time than our two year old team, and are probably going to play some stellar, creative football.

The All-Star team had one practise session before they beat West Ham in a thrilling, exciting, creative match.

Most national teams have years when they have to enter a tournament with a fresh squad who havent played together before, and can still string together a pass, or a run on goal or whatever, and go deep into the tournament.

Our squad has had more than plenty time to 'gel'

[trane]

^ Agree. This also comes down to fundamentals, if all the players are fundamentaly sound in regard to how to play the game, they will have a prety good idea of what the other will do in certain situations. This should be enough to be able to play like a more cohesive unit then we see from our boys, particulalry on the road.

[David]

QFT.
TFC wins a couple on the road no one will be saying boo about their preformance anyhow

To bad they won't be able to till some of the changes that are listed above are made.

[jloome]

Yes would definitely love to read your analysis after every game

Sure, I think I pretty much do weekly anyway, it just gets spread between about 20 threads.

It's not that you can't get this from Canadian journalists, it's that the wrong guys are covering the sport. It's one thing to be enthusiastic (Morgan Campbell is a good example of a guy working hard) but I've been watching the game for nearly 40 years; we need a writer covering the team who bleeds soccer but can still be objective, concise and clear.

That's unlikely to happen, however, because newsrooms have been bled of their staff. So you have the same three or four sports reporters covering everything from motor racing to soccer to figure skating. It's ridiculous.

[rocker]

i'm gonna print out your analysis and refer to it when i watch my recording of the game tonight. live and learn

[CoachGT]

jloome, I'd be willing to bet that JC would love to have you covering the games!

[jloome]

I'd be fair to him but no, I don't think he would. There's nothing worse than having someone who isn't in your profession tell you how to do your job, particularly when they're printing it in a newspaper.

[jloome]

i'm gonna print out your analysis and refer to it when i watch my recording of the game tonight. live and learn

Christ Rocker, you're actually going to subject yourself to the brutality of watching that monstrosity?!?

[CoachGT]

I'd be fair to him but no, I don't think he would. There's nothing worse than having someone who isn't in your profession tell you how to do your job, particularly when they're printing it in a newspaper.

Maybe not, but I think he's starving for someone who better understands the game to report on it, besides just Nigel.

[giambac]

Carver is still coach of TFC!

If TFC wants to hang onto their slim playoff hopes which are getting slimmer after each game (I mean loss), then they better fire Carver A.S.A.P.

Management of this forum banned me for 1 week because of my disregrad of the forum rules (posting my displeasure for Carver on multiple threads), so I will try and limit my comments to this thread.

What has happened in the past week during my ban? What has changed in the past week? The answer is nothing. TFC played another road game and they loss yet again (i.e Chicago)in the dying minutes of the game.

It's now 10 games and counting since TFC last won a game. In their past 10 games TFC has 3 draws and 7 losses. That's 3 point sout of a possible 30 points. A whopping 10% clip. I do realize that international games aren't worth 3points but lets ignore that fact. A game is a game and TFC hasn't won in their past 10. In total TFC will play 36 games this year (30 league, 4 CC, and 2 international). That means that their 10 game losing streak iequates to 28% of their toatl games which will be played this year.

Let's put this into perspective

1) IF the Blue Jays were to go on a losing streal of 28% of their games it would equate to 45 game winless streak. Would you be calling for the coach's head?
2) If the leafs went on a losing streak of 28% of their games it would equate to a 23 game winless streak. Would you be calling for the coach's head?

3) As sad as this may sound, the Blue Jays have a bette rrecord than TFC right now. Actually as bad as the Leafs were last season, their record was better than TFC's current record

What is the difference with Carver? What is the love affair with him?

I like everyone else on this planet realize that the team needs a quality striker who can put the ball in the net. This isn't Carver's fault. But are you telling me that with the palyers we have on this team that we shouldn't have been able to win at least 3-4 of our past 10 games. I mean there were 2 games vs Vancouver, 1 vs Montreal, 1 vs SJ expansion, 1 vs KC etc etc etc.

The problem with Carver is that he hasn't identified his strenghts and weaknesees and designed a system to suit what he has. The team doesn't play like a co-hesive unit, and the bottom line is that they simply don't play fundamental good football. That is the coach's fault and no one else.

My main beefs about Carver ( I have to many to list) are as follows

1) Questionable substitution patterns. Does he realize that substitutions do not carryforward to the nest game? Let's look at the multiple examples. Last game vs RSL. Guevera scored in the 85 minute to ie the game. Carver knows that the team has problems scoring especially on the road. Why didn't he bring in a late substitution ( defender) to preserve the tie. It was hot, it was humid and the palyers were tired. I mean Robert was basically crawling out there. Why didn't he bring in a defender for either ibby or Robert.

Same thing happened in th CC game vs Montreal. We needed a goal, a win. Why didn't he bring in another forward for a defender. I mean a tie or loss was the same result for us. James came in to late and why wasn't Smith also brought in for more attack.

2)Player selections. Carver continues to play around with his lineup and it is preventing the palyers from gelling and building confidence. There was the the CC game vs Vancouver on July 1. Carver screwed up so badly in his player selection that he used up all 3 substitutes at half time. I have never seen this done in soccer before.

How about the KC game at home when Carver benched his international players. Our best players were left on the bench and the result was a draw vs KC. We left 2 points on the table an dthat was the beginning of this horrible winless streak.

3) Carver tends to blame everyone and everything for the problems the team is encountering

He blames the media, he blames the league, he blames the officials. Now he has taken it a step further and has made public comments about his boss (MO Johnson) and some of his players. After the Montreal game he pointed out Cunny and Brennan. we all know that Cunny is shit but for fuck sakes you don't call out your palyers in public. Your job is to motivate your players and build their confidence. As long as Cunny is still on the team you shouldn't be making the comments he made. Carver may still ahve to call on Cunny to come into a game as a substitute so waht benefit was there in his comments. I saw an interview with Paul James ( a well respected soccer analyst who said it was one of the most bush league comments he has ever seen a coach make about one of his players.

Carver also pointed out Brennan, the captain and heart and soul of this team.

I mean when is Carver going to look in the mirror. If he did he would see a big JACKASS who is more to blame for the teams failure than anyone else. When is he going to take responsibility

4) Our young players are getting worse under Craver. How does EDU go from being rookie of the year last year with so much expectations (European teams were scouting him) to being so ineffective this year? Is Carver ruining his development? Has Carver used him in his most effective role.


Jloome started another thread on this forum " What is wrong with TFC and why is it that they suck"
If you read his points 90% of them can be attributed to the coach and the system he is playing. He mentions
- There is no positional consistency on the team
- players arguing during the game (Guevera and Robert)
-Central defenders are ball watching and constantly out of postion
-Robbo pushes to much
- Our player marking is poor - we paly to much zone
- lack of field leadership

?What Fix does he recommend Clarify roles and Responsibilities for the team and players. What? Is that a joke? Your kidding right? We are apst the mid point in the season , we have played our 4 CC games and your telling me we still have to define the players role and responsibilities?

Doesn't that fall onto Carver? Shouldn't that have been done a long time ago?

I strongly beleive there is a reason why Carver came to the MLS. As much as he won't admit it, there was no real demand for him in Engaland. What was his record as a coach in Engalnd. I beleive officailly he coached only 5 matches and his record was1 win and 4 losses (20% winning clip).

I usually don't agree with changes during the season but I strongly beleive that if TFC wants any cahnce to qualify for the playoffs they can't wait. The players have lost repect for the guy (i mean Teliby says he wants out becasue he is tired of the bullshit).


I think Mo should fire the caoch who has become a cancer to the team and NMO should step in as coach for the remainder of the season. Things can't get any worse. At least we won't have to hear all the crying and blaming that comes from Carver.

Carver reminds me of Dan Maloney (former coach of the Leafs). Both didn't know how to coach, motivate their palyers and designing a game plan/system around the teams strenghts and weakness's.

carver should go back to playing the bagpipes.

[giambac]

He's back...
Let me see!!!
No new insight...
Still talking out his ass...
Every post is like trying to read war and peace in Mandarin...
In short, he's just another phenomenal bore!

Giambac, you really are growing tiresome!

Like a said nothing has changed except that the team continues to lose game in and game out.

You keep defending the dude and look what's happening?

We have been elimantaed from the CC
We have quicly moved South in the standings from 3rd overall in the league to 10th and out of aplayoff spot.

Maybe your solution is like Jllome's. We need to deine the players role and responsibilities. I like that.....:noidea: That is the cure to our problems......:eek:

[AL-MO]

here we go again. . .

[giambac]

no problem,

Like I said 90% of what jloome is saying falls squarely on Carvers shoulders...

[colman1860]

giambac, the difference between the jays and tfc is that the jays were billed as world series contenders before the season, whereas were a second year team. nice try though.

Thanks to mods for banning this guy...sadly he remains a broken record.

[colman1860]

no problem,

Like I said 90% of what jloome is saying falls squarely on Carvers shoulders...

And theres me thinking that carver is only on the sideline. Heck, I thought the players were the ones losing the games.

P.S. 1 game losing streak, not 10.

[giambac]

giambac, the difference between the jays and tfc is that the jays were billed as world series contenders before the season, whereas were a second year team. nice try though.

Thanks to mods for banning this guy...sadly he remains a broken record.


Yes and you your mother, your grandmother, your neighbours, and your pets all had TFC BILLED AS THE CANADIAN CHAMPIONS (after all we were playing teams from the Useless soccer league).

Nice try but you see how your argument faults?

[H Bomb]

Did we not just have a massive discussion where we all recognized that we need to firstly Support The Team! So lets get rid of this guy (poster, not coach). He does zero supporting here, he does quite the opposite. Take a stand and stop being so damn nice.

[Tintin]

As I stated before, I don't know why evryone is against Giambac. he is allowed is opinion and he is not a broken record. Some posters bring up points that lead back to Craver and Giambac points. Also, he was banned for talking about Carver on different thread and now he posts a new thread and the Moderator merges it with this thread!!! I am confused.

People are so passionate towards him that it leads me to beleive that he has hit a nerve and you know what they say, truth hurts...

Anyway, I am not taking sides, i am just stating my perception.

I do beleive that Carver has made mistakes and is aliniating some players but he should finish the year and we will juge aftre. As I have said before, Mo is more of a problem...

[Tintin]

Did we not just have a massive discussion where we all recognized that we need to firstly Support The Team! So lets get rid of this guy (poster, not coach). He does zero supporting here, he does quite the opposite. Take a stand and stop being so damn nice.


Why? You can be negative as long as it is constructive and factual. Giambac wishes the best for TFC and he uses facts to prove is point.

We are not in a communist country where opinions are filtered.

[invictusTFC]

Like a said nothing has changed except that the team continues to lose game in and game out.

You keep defending the dude and look what's happening?

We have been elimantaed from the CC
We have quicly moved South in the standings from 3rd overall in the league to 10th and out of aplayoff spot.

Maybe your solution is like Jllome's. We need to deine the players role and responsibilities. I like that.....:noidea: That is the cure to our problems......:eek:

Fuck, why do I keep getting dragged into these pissing contests...

Look, I've never really defended this guy. I just thought that 2 or 3 weeks ago when you started your anti-Carver crusade it was way too early to call out for his head.

Am I happy with the way the team has played as of late? Certainly not. Can some of the teams issues be put squarely on JC's shoulders? For sure. However, this club has had its fair share of bad luck as well. You have to recognize the fact that a couple of bounces here and there, TFC could have walked away with a different result in at least half those games.

One thing that hasn't pleased me all that much about Carver has been the way he has dealt with some of the scrutiny and pressure stemming from the winless streak. He seems to be getting desperate. You don't call out players, or bite the hand that feeds you. At the same time I have to respect how passionate he is as a coach.

There is still half a season to go here... one win can be the beginning of a turn of fortunes for this club. When TFC plays with confidence you see a huge difference out there on the field.

If the streak continues, then I think that the coach deserves the hot seat, but not only him. Mo has to be accountable as well. The transfer window was open on July 15th, it is now the 31st and we still don't have a top tier striker. It also scares me that the only legitimate names being mentioned are of 30 somethings from the English Championship.

The players have to be accountable too. There are several players on this team who are getting paid as top tier players in this league and who aren't performing like it.

[giambac]

Did we not just have a massive discussion where we all recognized that we need to firstly Support The Team! So lets get rid of this guy (poster, not coach). He does zero supporting here, he does quite the opposite. Take a stand and stop being so damn nice.

Dude,

this is a forum.

The thread is tittled why we currently suck.

I listed my opinion. If you agree your intelligent.

If you disagree you can go play road hockey on the 401

[colman1860]

Yes and you your mother, your grandmother, your neighbours, and your pets all had TFC BILLED AS THE CANADIAN CHAMPIONS (after all we were playing teams from the Useless soccer league).

Nice try but you see how your argument faults?

I understand that youre too busy writing the same stuff over and over again to notice, but if you look at the CCC and the US Open Cup (its a tournament south of the border, in case youre unaware) you will notice the USL teams routinely beat MLS teams. The gap is not very big between the two leagues, trust me.

[colman1860]

Dude,

this is a forum.

The thread is tittled why we currently suck.

I listed my opinion. If you agree your intelligent.

If you disagree you can go play road hockey on the 401

ROAD HOCKEY PARTYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I love how 99% of people on this forum disagree with you, yet youre the one whos right. Why do you keep posting here? Do you like being abused?

[colman1860]

It also scares me that the only legitimate names being mentioned are of 30 somethings from the English Championship.


Nuno Gomes? Hakan Sukur?

[giambac]

Fuck, why do I keep getting dragged into these pissing contests...

Look, I've never really defended this guy. I just thought that 2 or 3 weeks ago when you started your anti-Carver crusade it was way too early to call out for his head.

Am I happy with the way the team has played as of late? Certainly not. Can some of the teams issues be put squarely on JC's shoulders? For sure. However, this club has had its fair share of bad luck as well. You have to recognize the fact that a couple of bounces here and there, TFC could have walked away with a different result in at least half those games.

One thing that hasn't pleased me all that much about Carver has been the way he has dealt with some of the scrutiny and pressure stemming from the winless streak. He seems to be getting desperate. You don't call out players, or bite the hand that feeds you. At the same time I have to respect how passionate he is as a coach.

There is still half a season to go here... one win can be the beginning of a turn of fortunes for this club. When TFC plays with confidence you see a huge difference out there on the field.

If the streak continues, then I think that the coach deserves the hot seat, but not only him. Mo has to be accountable as well. The transfer window was open on July 15th, it is now the 31st and we still don't have a top tier striker. It also scares me that the only legitimate names being mentioned are of 30 somethings from the English Championship.

The players have to be accountable too. There are several players on this team who are getting paid as top tier players in this league and who aren't performing like it.

I respect your comments and they are valid. Maybe I'm just more aggressive in my stand

1) You say if the streak continues....then maybe. I don't beleive we have this luxuary. I mean We aren't talking baout a team who has lost 1 or 2 games. It is now a 10 game winless streak. In cluded inthose 10 games were critical matches for the CC and for the league. I thought everyone was saying that the last 2 games were the turning point of the season. We had 2 home games vs Montreal nad SJ. Everyone was saying it was going to be the start of a winning streak. Well we managed 2 ties....

Now everyone is saying give it more time... Is time not running out?

2) I do agree that the players also have to be held accountable. True they are professionals. Yet in my view it is easier to change the caoch than 11 players. Also was it not Carver who helped bring in the likes of Robert, RR and Teliby thru his connections. These are part of the group of players who aren't performing. Now Teliby is gone. Maybe Carver was mistaken in their capabilities.

3) What gets me pissed off the most about Carver and the reason why I keep calling him out is because I'm playing his game. Wake up. What I'm doing to Carver on this forum is exactly what he has been doing to his boss (MO Johnson) and his players in the media. He continues to bash them and put them down and never takes accounatbilty himself. I have no ties or connections to Carver so Idon't feel bad about it. On the other hand Carver bad mouths the man who gave him a job and his own player. Talk about a son of a bitch Back Stabber. How can you respect ssomeone like that??

[invictusTFC]

Nuno Gomes? Hakan Sukur?

TFC has neither confirmed or denied those players. I can tell you this, not once in the Portuguese media was it ever mentioned that Nuno Gomes was being pursued by TFC. So, I'll just regard it as shear speculation. That being said, do you agree with the reported figures being allegedly offered to these players? $4million! Nuno Gomes isn't a sniper, and Sukur is well past his prime... It would be a huge gamble for Mo, one that he would surely lose.

[giambac]

ROAD HOCKEY PARTYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I love how 99% of people on this forum disagree with you, yet youre the one whos right. Why do you keep posting here? Do you like being abused?
:(
Dude your a follower. You follow the crowd.... That will take you far in life.

I call it the way it is.

everyone has an opinion whether it is right or wrong. That's why we have a forum. I not going to jump on the band wagon just because 99% of the people are doing it.

I see a problem with the team... In fact it is a big problem and the teams record shows that.

Continue to follow the crowd........

[Beach_Red]

1) Questionable substitution patterns. Does he realize that substitutions do not carryforward to the nest game? Let's look at the multiple examples. Last game vs RSL. Guevera scored in the 85 minute to ie the game. Carver knows that the team has problems scoring especially on the road. Why didn't he bring in a late substitution ( defender) to preserve the tie. It was hot, it was humid and the palyers were tired. I mean Robert was basically crawling out there. Why didn't he bring in a defender for either ibby or Robert.

This is a good question. Of course, who was available? Is this really a coaching problem or a depth problem? Is the depth problem a GM issue or or salary cap and league scheduling issue?

Adding those CC games after the season started and dropping them in July along with friendlies seems like a dumb thing to do. I got pretty tired of hearing the TV guys complain that TFC had no time ot practise in July and what a huge effect that had, but they are right.

A season is a marathon it's not a sprint. I'll always remember baseball manager Dick Williams saying a manager can win maybe five games a year (out of 162) by making a brilliant move in the middle of a game, but he'll lose 40 by meddling too much.

I wonder if any other coach in the world, with the same players and the same schedule would do much differently than John Carver?

[Phil]

Carver has been given some tools in the last 24 hours (Barrett) and there may be more on the way.

It is hard for me to judge him until I have seen how he manages a better equiped squad. Am I enamered with Carver? Not really.

Is he better than Mo was last year? I think so. Is he better than most of the coaches in the MLS? I think he could be. That is why I give him a chance.

The team is underperforming right now, I want them to stop that. If they don't then the manager will be in the direct line of fire because you can't fire the whole team. He needs more time in my mind to truly be judged. Its a 2nd year team, I would love for them to be in the playoffs but lets be realistic here.

[giambac]

As I stated before, I don't know why evryone is against Giambac. he is allowed is opinion and he is not a broken record. Some posters bring up points that lead back to Craver and Giambac points. Also, he was banned for talking about Carver on different thread and now he posts a new thread and the Moderator merges it with this thread!!! I am confused.

People are so passionate towards him that it leads me to beleive that he has hit a nerve and you know what they say, truth hurts...

Anyway, I am not taking sides, i am just stating my perception.

I do beleive that Carver has made mistakes and is aliniating some players but he should finish the year and we will juge aftre. As I have said before, Mo is more of a problem...


Tintin,

It is nice to see that at least some people can look at the posts objectively.

It is true that I have hit a nerve. Maybe I'm to aggressive in my position. However, one thing is for sure... I love tFC and have been a TFC supporter from day 1.

I pay good $ for my season tickets and that doesn't mean I have to kiss managements ass. A supporter can criticize the team if they aren't performing.

Shit if i was performing at 10% at my job I would be fired also.

Thanks for the comment.

[giambac]

This is a good question. Of course, who was available? Is this really a coaching problem or a depth problem? Is the depth problem a GM issue or or salary cap and league scheduling issue?

Adding those CC games after the season started and dropping them in July along with friendlies seems like a dumb thing to do. I got pretty tired of hearing the TV guys complain that TFC had no time ot practise in July and what a huge effect that had, but they are right.

A season is a marathon it's not a sprint. I'll always remember baseball manager Dick Williams saying a manager can win maybe five games a year (out of 162) by making a brilliant move in the middle of a game, but he'll lose 40 by meddling too much.

I wonder if any other coach in the world, with the same players and the same schedule would do much differently than John Carver?

My point was that there was 5 minutes left. We just tied the game and we should have preserved the tie. Any defender on the bench should have been brought in for the last 5 minutes. Ibby or Robert should have been taken out. At that stage in the game we weren't going for the win. So why not have an extra defender for the tie.

The point we lost may once again come back to haunt us at the end of the season.., All these easy points we give away add up. It's happened several times now.

[BuSaPuNk]

To me it just seems that Carver doesn't like to bring in a defender when they have a lead. It's almost like he knows that they can't hold a 1-0 lead or something. He needs to have his strikers still on the pitch to score again. The RSL game he should have brought in a defender as soon as they scored. Mabey he needs a video review of Fergies decisions with Man U.

[colman1860]

:(
Dude your a follower. You follow the crowd.... That will take you far in life.

I call it the way it is.

everyone has an opinion whether it is right or wrong. That's why we have a forum. I not going to jump on the band wagon just because 99% of the people are doing it.

I see a problem with the team... In fact it is a big problem and the teams record shows that.

Continue to follow the crowd........
Im not following the crowd, just because I agree with most people's sentiment. Even if everybody was saying that Carver should be fired, I would say that he should not. Its simply my belief. As for me going far in life...ive just been accepted to a business program which is ranked in the top 10 globally, so yes, i hope to do well for myself. I dont really see how you can make these judgements about me without ever having met me.

Tintin, while I see where youre coming from, I dont understand how you can say that giambac doesnt sound like a broken record. Every single thread he brings up exactly the same stuff. Good luck finding a post by him that doesnt involve firing carver.

[Beach_Red]

Firing a coach is the easiest thing a GM can do. It rarely ever works.

As for all the players being talked about coming from the UK, you know that every striker in the world not currently under contract has been made an offer by TFC. The ones you're hearing about are just the one's whose agents didn't laugh out loud.

If this Dikov guy rejects similar offers from European teams and signs with TFC for non-DP money that's a significant step.

[Tintin]

Im not following the crowd, just because I agree with most people's sentiment. Even if everybody was saying that Carver should be fired, I would say that he should not. Its simply my belief. As for me going far in life...ive just been accepted to a business program which is ranked in the top 10 globally, so yes, i hope to do well for myself. I dont really see how you can make these judgements about me without ever having met me.

Tintin, while I see where youre coming from, I dont understand how you can say that giambac doesnt sound like a broken record. Every single thread he brings up exactly the same stuff. Good luck finding a post by him that doesnt involve firing carver.


I know that's all he talks about! What I mean is that if people bring the same points about the team not playing well, then it is to be expected taht Giambac will bring his same points about Carver.

In other words, he might be a broken record, but that is beacuse people start the chain by posting the same things about the team!

I do fully agrre with you that Giambac juges people too fast without knowing them If he wants others like me to respect him for his thoughts even if we don't agree, than he can't judge people for having their thoughts, like he did with you.

Congrats and good luck in your progarm!

[Tintin]

Firing a coach is the easiest thing a GM can do. It rarely ever works.

As for all the players being talked about coming from the UK, you know that every striker in the world not currently under contract has been made an offer by TFC. The ones you're hearing about are just the one's whose agents didn't laugh out loud.

If this Dikov guy rejects similar offers from European teams and signs with TFC for non-DP money that's a significant step.


Good point but I woul like us to explore central America more. Guevara must have connections....

[giambac]

Im not following the crowd, just because I agree with most people's sentiment. Even if everybody was saying that Carver should be fired, I would say that he should not. Its simply my belief. As for me going far in life...ive just been accepted to a business program which is ranked in the top 10 globally, so yes, i hope to do well for myself. I dont really see how you can make these judgements about me without ever having met me.

Tintin, while I see where youre coming from, I dont understand how you can say that giambac doesnt sound like a broken record. Every single thread he brings up exactly the same stuff. Good luck finding a post by him that doesnt involve firing carver.

Do you loack self assuarance that you need to bring that up? Like I really care what you do or don't do. I don't know you from a whole in the wall. As as far as I'm concernec it can all be bullshit. If not good for you.

My point was an answer to your comment. You seemed to suggest that becasue 99% of the people are against my views I should shut up and accept their views. I for one read their comments and weigh the pro's and cons (something that any good business manager will tell you to do when making a decision, including myself - honours B-Comm graduate and CA designation). You stand is simple - if 99% disagree with me I must be wrong and I should be banned from the forum.


Your correct. My posts are mostly on Carver. Because I identified a problem and I think he is part of it.

Compare this to the other responses on this thread.

1)Let' see - Bring in a striker. I've heard Ronaldo, Messi, Crespo being named. Noteam should be expected to win 1 game out of 10 without a striker. I mean this would be asking the world from them right???
Peole think that all our problems are linked to getting a striker. Look at the big picture. Our problems are more than that.

2) It's okay that we suck we are only in our second year. Are we asking for the impossiible for this team to strive for more. This season started with so much hope and hype. W all thought TFC would beat Montreal and Vancouver. If you can't admit it then your fooling yourself. It was a big disappointmnet and an embarrasmment. I don't care what year we're in.

Also we play in the MLS where the competition isn't tough. With the players Mo has brought in and with the start to the season (a month ago we were in 3rd place in the league), there is no reason not to strive for the playoffs and then some. The teams we are competing with aren't amazing teams.

So yes I put most of the blame on the person who selects the players to start, the person who makes or doesn't make the proper substitutions, the person who can or can't motivate his players to play better and the person who can or can't identify what he has (strenghts/weaknesses) and works with it.

Carver hasn't demonstrated this.

[trane]

Carver has been given some tools in the last 24 hours (Barrett) and there may be more on the way.

It is hard for me to judge him until I have seen how he manages a better equiped squad. Am I enamered with Carver? Not really.

Is he better than Mo was last year? I think so. Is he better than most of the coaches in the MLS? I think he could be. That is why I give him a chance.

The team is underperforming right now, I want them to stop that. If they don't then the manager will be in the direct line of fire because you can't fire the whole team. He needs more time in my mind to truly be judged. Its a 2nd year team, I would love for them to be in the playoffs but lets be realistic here.


I agree with you, and I am a Carver supporter, but he must shoulder some of the blame for our lack of consistent team defense, and too often a lack of fundamentaly sound play. I like want Carver is trying to do, but he has not done it in the past strech of games.

[invictusTFC]

Do you loack self assuarance that you need to bring that up? Like I really care what you do or don't do. I don't know you from a whole in the wall. As as far as I'm concernec it can all be bullshit. If not good for you.

My point was an answer to your comment. You seemed to suggest that becasue 99% of the people are against my views I should shut up and accept their views. I for one read their comments and weigh the pro's and cons (something that any good business manager will tell you to do when making a decision, including myself - honours B-Comm graduate and CA designation). You stand is simple - if 99% disagree with me I must be wrong and I should be banned from the forum.


Your correct. My posts are mostly on Carver. Because I identified a problem and I think he is part of it.

Compare this to the other responses on this thread.

1)Let' see - Bring in a striker. I've heard Ronaldo, Messi, Crespo being named. Noteam should be expected to win 1 game out of 10 without a striker. I mean this would be asking the world from them right???
Peole think that all our problems are linked to getting a striker. Look at the big picture. Our problems are more than that.

2) It's okay that we suck we are only in our second year. Are we asking for the impossiible for this team to strive for more. This season started with so much hope and hype. W all thought TFC would beat Montreal and Vancouver. If you can't admit it then your fooling yourself. It was a big disappointmnet and an embarrasmment. I don't care what year we're in.

Also we play in the MLS where the competition isn't tough. With the players Mo has brought in and with the start to the season (a month ago we were in 3rd place in the league), there is no reason not to strive for the playoffs and then some. The teams we are competing with aren't amazing teams.

So yes I put most of the blame on the person who selects the players to start, the person who makes or doesn't make the proper substitutions, the person who can or can't motivate his players to play better and the person who can or can't identify what he has (strenghts/weaknesses) and works with it.

Carver hasn't demonstrated this.

I just don't understand how you can carve into JC yet let Mo escape your wrath unscathed. After all Mo brought JC in. Mo is there day in and day out, so he knows how the team is playing under Carver. If JC is truly as incompetent as you claim, and Mo doesn't see it or react to it, what does that say about Mo and his ability to assess coaches?

[giambac]

I just don't understand how you can carve into JC yet let Mo escape your wrath unscathed. After all Mo brought JC in. Mo is there day in and day out, so he knows how the team is playing under Carver. If JC is truly as incompetent as you claim, and Mo doesn't see it or react to it, what does that say about Mo and his ability to assess coaches?

Mo is a concern also. I was bashing him early in the season. Then he broght in some players ( imust say players that Craver recommended) who haven't performed as expected. RR is coming around but in no way is worth all the hype that canme with his signing. Carver also wanted Teliby and Robert who have been disappointments.

So yes Mo is also responsible an dI think he would fire Carver if he didn't have the personal connections.

Yet I at least cut Mo some slack. He is bad mouthing the coach. He isn't bad mouthing his playeers. He isn't bad mouthing the refs etc etc.

Carver on the other hand thinks everyone else is responsible for his own faults.

I mean Carver should be trying to work with what bhe has. If and when a striker comes in then it is a bonus. It's like Craver has given up and has no solutions or game plans untiol a striker comes in... That's unacceptable. He is being paid to coach what he has. Stop the whining.

[colman1860]

I know that's all he talks about! What I mean is that if people bring the same points about the team not playing well, then it is to be expected taht Giambac will bring his same points about Carver.


I know what youre saying, as people do often bring up the same points. However, this thread (the one giambacs was merged with) took a more indepth look at tactics, instead of just the usual "we suck, we cant score, etc."


Congrats and good luck in your progarm!

Thanks!

[invictusTFC]

So yes Mo is also responsible an dI think he would fire Carver if he didn't have the personal connections.

Yet I at least cut Mo some slack. He is bad mouthing the coach. He isn't bad mouthing his playeers. He isn't bad mouthing the refs etc etc.

Carver on the other hand thinks everyone else is responsible for his own faults.

I mean Carver should be trying to work with what he has. If and when a striker comes in then it is a bonus. It's like Craver has given up and has no solutions or game plans untiol a striker comes in... That's unacceptable. He is being paid to coach what he has. Stop the whining.

A) Isn't it the GM who should have the connections. If Carver is bringing in the players what is Mo doing?

B) I have no problem with Carver bashing his players just not in the media. They aren't performing so they need to here it, but doing it outside the dressing room or training pitch is a recipe for disaster.

C) Carver has been working with what he has, and it hasn't worked for the past 8 league games, so he has the right to demand players.

[giambac]

A) Isn't it the GM who should have the connections. If Carver is bringing in the players what is Mo doing?

B) I have no problem with Carver bashing his players just not in the media. They aren't performing so they need to here it, but doing it outside the dressing room or training pitch is a recipe for disaster.

C) Carver has been working with what he has, and it hasn't worked for the past 8 league games, so he has the right to demand players.

response

a) That's why I'm not in favour of bringing in friends as a coach. They had a personal connection and now Carver has tried to use to much influence in the player selections. I blame Mo for bringing them in. I blame Carver for recommending the palyers he said were skilled palyers. apparently Carver was wrong. He doesn't have good judgement of palyers skills and capabilities.

Mo appaerntly has faults in listening to him when it is his job to bring in players.

b) Carver has shown a lack of respect for both his boss and players by calling them out in public. we all make mistakes and I would give him the benefit of the doubt if he did it once. But he continues to due it over and over again. He is a backstabber.

I respect Paul James (soccer analyst on the Score) and he made the comment that what Carver did and said was one of the worst and unbeleivable things he seen a coach do. He recommended that Carver take a course in media and player relationships WOW!

c) Carver has every right to demand the most from his palyers. I would do the same thingt. However, there is a right way and wrong way to do it. By puuting them down in public it won't work.

and yes we need a strker as he continues to say. However until that strker comes in he has to work with what he has. Design a system with the palyers you have. You should have been able to win at leats 3-4 of our past 0 games even without astrker (vancouver, montreal, KC, SJ etc).
When and if the striker comes in it will be a bonus.

[colman1860]

Do you loack self assuarance that you need to bring that up? Like I really care what you do or don't do. I don't know you from a whole in the wall. As as far as I'm concernec it can all be bullshit. If not good for you.


I dont lack whatever is it you said i lack. I think you mean self confidence. Im also not a whole in the wall. Not even a hole. You implied that im an idiot who simply follows the crowd and that I would go nowhere in life. Thats an attack on me, and has nothing to do with TFC. I responded by politely correcting you. Its not bullshit, if you really want I'll PM you some proof. But again, that has nothing to do with this discussion. I was responding to a personal attack you made on me.


My point was an answer to your comment. You seemed to suggest that becasue 99% of the people are against my views I should shut up and accept their views.I for one read their comments and weigh the pro's and cons (something that any good business manager will tell you to do when making a decision, including myself - honours B-Comm graduate and CA designation). You stand is simple - if 99% disagree with me I must be wrong and I should be banned from the forum.

Not really. Its a public forum, and youre free to have your own opinion. But why do you keep spouting it when 99% disagree with you? Of course you should weigh up the pros and cons, but do you see a sudden vast improvement coming if John Carver is fired? I never said you should be banned from this forum. If you are, then it wont be because your opinion differs from the canon. Its because you repeat it over and over and over again, often insulting other posters at the same time. I believe the reason you were banned for a week is because you hijacked every thread and turned it into a FIRE CARVER discussion. If you kept bringing your unpopular opinion into business meetings that arent about that topic, insulting other members of your company at the same time, then any good business manager would fire you.


Your correct. My posts are mostly on Carver. Because I identified a problem and I think he is part of it.

The thing is, if you ask any poster on this forum what he thinks of when he hears "giambac", he will say FIRE CARVER. Theres nothing wrong with you having your own opinion, but stop repeating it in every thread.




1)Let' see - Bring in a striker. I've heard Ronaldo, Messi, Crespo being named. Noteam should be expected to win 1 game out of 10 without a striker. I mean this would be asking the world from them right???
Peole think that all our problems are linked to getting a striker. Look at the big picture. Our problems are more than that.

Ronaldo, Messi and Crespo are pipe dreams. They are not coming. Period. I dont really understand whether youre being sarcastic or not here...I agree that it is hard to win without a real striker (Ibrahim is 16, Cunningham is useless, Smith tries hard, but cant find the net, etc.) I dont think that we win MLS cup the second we sign a proven international striker. I do think that we easily qualify for the playoffs. It improves us greatly. Its not the whole problem with this team, but its 75%.


2) It's okay that we suck we are only in our second year. Are we asking for the impossiible for this team to strive for more. This season started with so much hope and hype. W all thought TFC would beat Montreal and Vancouver. If you can't admit it then your fooling yourself. It was a big disappointmnet and an embarrasmment. I don't care what year we're in.

Youre simply expecting too much if you say that you dont care what year were in. Id say theres a five year plan in place to win the MLS. As for the CCC, yes, it was embarrassing. But to blame it on Carver? We were a decent touch from Cunningham away from winning it. And we only got that close because Carver made a GREAT substitution by bringing on Julius James up front, who won the header that set up Cunningham.


Also we play in the MLS where the competition isn't tough. With the players Mo has brought in and with the start to the season (a month ago we were in 3rd place in the league), there is no reason not to strive for the playoffs and then some. The teams we are competing with aren't amazing teams.

While the competition isnt tough if you compare it to Europe, it is tough in relation to TFC. Every team operates on the same salary cap, but TFC is at a distinct disadvantage as our domestic players are Canadian, not American (not the same talent pool). Also, we are striving for the playoffs. Were right on the brink.


So yes I put most of the blame on the person who selects the players to start, the person who makes or doesn't make the proper substitutions, the person who can or can't motivate his players to play better and the person who can or can't identify what he has (strenghts/weaknesses) and works with it.

Carver hasn't demonstrated this.

In my opinion, Carver is working well with what hes given. Also, Mojo is doing his best to bring in better players, but for whatever reason (cough fieldturf cough) he hasnt been successful as of yet. These players are professionals, they should be able to motivate themselves. Carver is not going to lead them in the All Blacks Rugby Dance before every game (though it would be awesome if he did).

It looks to me as though Carver has identified the strengths and weaknesses of the team, and is working with them. For example, most of our attacks are combinations down the wing, as opposed to long balls which are then laid off to the wings. This is because we no longer have the physical presence of Danny Dichio up front, but instead have speedier players like Ibrahim or Smith.

I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree, but the slump we are currently in cannot be traced back to Carver sufficiently enough to fire him.

[invictusTFC]

response

a) That's why I'm not in favour of bringing in friends as a coach. They had a personal connection and now Carver has tried to use to much influence in the player selections. I blame Mo for bringing them in. I blame Carver for recommending the palyers he said were skilled palyers. apparently Carver was wrong. He doesn't have good judgement of palyers skills and capabilities.

Mo appaerntly has faults in listening to him when it is his job to bring in players.

b) Carver has shown a lack of respect for both his boss and players by calling them out in public. we all make mistakes and I would give him the benefit of the doubt if he did it once. But he continues to due it over and over again. He is a backstabber.

I respect Paul James (soccer analyst on the Score) and he made the comment that what Carver did and said was one of the worst and unbeleivable things he seen a coach do. He recommended that Carver take a course in media and player relationships WOW!

c) Carver has every right to demand the most from his palyers. I would do the same thingt. However, there is a right way and wrong way to do it. By puuting them down in public it won't work.

and yes we need a strker as he continues to say. However until that strker comes in he has to work with what he has. Design a system with the palyers you have. You should have been able to win at leats 3-4 of our past 0 games even without astrker (vancouver, montreal, KC, SJ etc).
When and if the striker comes in it will be a bonus.

you do nothing but contradict yourself which is why you hold such little credibility in this forum.
First you say that JC suggested players to Mo of poor quality, and then you say later that the team is good enough to win games.

You have some valid points but you argue them like a moron and its always to the extreme

[giambac]

you do nothing but contradict yourself which is why you hold such little credibility in this forum.
First you say that JC suggested players to Mo of poor quality, and then you say later that the team is good enough to win games.

You have some valid points but you argue them like a moron and its always to the extreme


I'll try and not be harsh with you (I think Portuguese know their soccer) but it is difficult to have a conversation with someone who doesn't read . You must quickly glance through my comments and jump to conclusions.

This is what I said.

1) Mo brought in his buddy - Carver to be a coach. I disagree with bringing in personal friends as a coach
2) Mo is in charge of bringing in players. What happened unfortunately is that because Mo is close to Carver he listened to Carver and brought in players that Carver overated (Teleby, Robert and Rickets- although Ricketts is the better of the3). Mo is ultimately responsible for bringing these players, so he is at fault. However Carver has no clue on how to rank players.
3) The next thing I said is that although these players have been disappointments, the MLS is a very average league. Even with these overated players TFC should still have been able to win 3 or 4 games from their past 10. No they can not win a championship with these players because they are not good enough. However the remaining 13 teams in the MLS aren't power houses either and they all have some weaknesses. If Craver could just develop a system with rthe playersrs he has there is no reason why they couldn't at leats win 3-4 games.

There is absolutely no contradiction in these points.

i.e KC- didn't start his international players otherwise they would have won
July 1 vs Vancouver - Carver was forced to use3 substitutions at half time because he fucked up on the starting 11
Chicago and RSL - 2 losses in the 88 nad 90 minute. why didn't he bring in late defender substitutions to preserve the tie
Montrea CC game - Why didn't he bring in another forward as a substitute.

Numerous other examples but unfortunatly I would have to stay up all night to list them all.

[giambac]

I dont lack whatever is it you said i lack. I think you mean self confidence. Im also not a whole in the wall. Not even a hole. You implied that im an idiot who simply follows the crowd and that I would go nowhere in life. Thats an attack on me, and has nothing to do with TFC. I responded by politely correcting you. Its not bullshit, if you really want I'll PM you some proof. But again, that has nothing to do with this discussion. I was responding to a personal attack you made on me.


Not really. Its a public forum, and youre free to have your own opinion. But why do you keep spouting it when 99% disagree with you? Of course you should weigh up the pros and cons, but do you see a sudden vast improvement coming if John Carver is fired? I never said you should be banned from this forum. If you are, then it wont be because your opinion differs from the canon. Its because you repeat it over and over and over again, often insulting other posters at the same time. I believe the reason you were banned for a week is because you hijacked every thread and turned it into a FIRE CARVER discussion. If you kept bringing your unpopular opinion into business meetings that arent about that topic, insulting other members of your company at the same time, then any good business manager would fire you.


The thing is, if you ask any poster on this forum what he thinks of when he hears "giambac", he will say FIRE CARVER. Theres nothing wrong with you having your own opinion, but stop repeating it in every thread.



Ronaldo, Messi and Crespo are pipe dreams. They are not coming. Period. I dont really understand whether youre being sarcastic or not here...I agree that it is hard to win without a real striker (Ibrahim is 16, Cunningham is useless, Smith tries hard, but cant find the net, etc.) I dont think that we win MLS cup the second we sign a proven international striker. I do think that we easily qualify for the playoffs. It improves us greatly. Its not the whole problem with this team, but its 75%.

Youre simply expecting too much if you say that you dont care what year were in. Id say theres a five year plan in place to win the MLS. As for the CCC, yes, it was embarrassing. But to blame it on Carver? We were a decent touch from Cunningham away from winning it. And we only got that close because Carver made a GREAT substitution by bringing on Julius James up front, who won the header that set up Cunningham.

While the competition isnt tough if you compare it to Europe, it is tough in relation to TFC. Every team operates on the same salary cap, but TFC is at a distinct disadvantage as our domestic players are Canadian, not American (not the same talent pool). Also, we are striving for the playoffs. Were right on the brink.


In my opinion, Carver is working well with what hes given. Also, Mojo is doing his best to bring in better players, but for whatever reason (cough fieldturf cough) he hasnt been successful as of yet. These players are professionals, they should be able to motivate themselves. Carver is not going to lead them in the All Blacks Rugby Dance before every game (though it would be awesome if he did).

It looks to me as though Carver has identified the strengths and weaknesses of the team, and is working with them. For example, most of our attacks are combinations down the wing, as opposed to long balls which are then laid off to the wings. This is because we no longer have the physical presence of Danny Dichio up front, but instead have speedier players like Ibrahim or Smith.

I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree, but the slump we are currently in cannot be traced back to Carver sufficiently enough to fire him.

How old are you?

I made a comment that you are a follower? That's a personal attack?
Grow up. If you want byou can tell your teacher on me?

If you can't take comments than stay off the forum. I mean I take my share and you don't see me crying.

Calling you a follower is an attack? Now i've heard it all!!!!!

[Denis]

This is key; and when this is the case, we need the other back dropping to just in front of the backline, in case he has to fill the opposing centre half role when the defense shifts to cover the hole the attacking fullback would leave if caught high up on the pitch.

That's certainly a point. Any opposing left winger has the freedom of the wing when Wynne gets caught out charging up.

My thoughts are that whilst I agree with pretty much all your reasons and fixes (Common sense and football ? Well I never !) there's only so much you can do if the players themselves are not motivated to wanting to win the game and wanting to improve as a team. An accusation I could level at a good few of the players out there.

I simply don't see things changing for the rest of this season.

[giambac]

That's certainly a point. Any opposing left winger has the freedom of the wing when Wynne gets caught out charging up.

My thoughts are that whilst I agree with pretty much all your reasons and fixes (Common sense and football ? Well I never !) there's only so much you can do if the players themselves are not motivated to wanting to win the game and wanting to improve as a team. An accusation I could level at a good few of the players out there.

I simply don't see things changing for the rest of this season.

I keep seeing this printed over and over again.

a large number of people on this forum are saying bthat our players aren't motivated. Okay I also agree. This is a big problem.

How do we get our players motivated.
Who is goingt to motivate them
Whose job is it to motivate them

[MrHawk]

Benching players usually helps (works in hockey, baseball).

Throwing them in the snake pit for an hour or 2 works for me.

Or just introduce every player to an off the boat parent :). That'll motivate them not to screw up.

[Derko]

Wow that was hard to get through, we all bring up great points, and yes it is easy to fire this or that person. motivation is the key, we do have players that I believe can do the job.
I honestly thought that Carver was going to be the hard ass that would bring out the best in his players, he should be looking at the most successful Boss in the world, that would be Sir Alex, a very hard but very fair manager, one that is not afraid to bench a player and demands only the very best from his players, and does not 'Candy Ass' the Media. The TFC organization is playing the Toronto media game. Tell them to Fuck Off and get on with developing a contender. TFC have improved somewhat and will keep on building, yes we desire more but we have to be patient.
Call me optimistic, but I have to believe we have the team to do it. If we score a few more goals get a few more good results, perhaps make the playoffs, it is an improvement.

[jloome]

That's certainly a point. Any opposing left winger has the freedom of the wing when Wynne gets caught out charging up.

My thoughts are that whilst I agree with pretty much all your reasons and fixes (Common sense and football ? Well I never !) there's only so much you can do if the players themselves are not motivated to wanting to win the game and wanting to improve as a team. An accusation I could level at a good few of the players out there.

I simply don't see things changing for the rest of this season.

You're right, heart is the biggest issue of all. But I think one big step towards that would be getting rid of Cunningham, who's lousy attitude and shitty workrate are a locker-room cancer; and a second is bringing in Dickov, whose heart and work-rate are legendary. Barrett's no slouch on that front, either. A little heart and maybe these unbelievable near misses start going in.

I think we can still turn this around.

[ag futbol]

Wow, i opened this thread and i think a handbag hit me in the face.

I agree with all the points from the first post, however I have to say this team is going nowhere until we start facilitating a style of play that relies at least partially on possession of the ball. The league is played in the summer, lot of teams play in very hot climates in comparison to Europe, and to make it worse there are a lot of teams already using possession so when we lose the ball we really get fatigued doing a lot of defending.

Direct football won't work in this league and globally it's already gone out of style. We should get with the times.

[ExiledRed]

1) IF the Blue Jays were to go on a losing streal of 28% of their games it would equate to 45 game winless streak. Would you be calling for the coach's head?

nonsense.

If we only play one game and lose, then we've lost 100% of our games and that one loss equates to something like a 10 game losing streak in Baseball. The analogy doesn't hold water, it's absurd.




Same thing happened in th CC game vs Montreal. We needed a goal, a win. Why didn't he bring in another forward for a defender. I mean a tie or loss was the same result for us. James came in to late and why wasn't Smith also brought in for more attack.

James was bought in as a last resort, his height was required in set pieces and it was looking like a set piece was going to be our only chance of scoring(like it was against RSL). Not Rocket Science, and not 'wierd' at all.


vs Vancouver on July 1. Carver screwed up so badly in his player selection that he used up all 3 substitutes at half time. I have never seen this done in soccer before.

The three subs were Ricketts, Dichio and Robert. You are NOT going to tell me that he shouldnt have started them.
It was a rash move, but something needed to be done, because the players were treating the game like a pre-season friendly. The squad improved in the second half, Cunny was on-side for the disallowed goal and we should have had a penalty.


How about the KC game at home when Carver benched his international players. Our best players were left on the bench and the result was a draw vs KC. We left 2 points on the table an dthat was the beginning of this horrible winless streak.

This argument needs to stop. No player should have to start less than 48 hours after playing an international, and travelling. It's not NORMAL. There is nothing to suggest those players would have delivered anything more than a draw either, and Im basing that on the games they've played since.



3) Carver tends to blame everyone and everything for the problems the team is encountering
When is he going to take responsibility?

After the Vancouver match actually. He had plenty to blame, from the disinterested players to the horrendous officiating, but he took full responsibility. I'm not going digging, but I remember he's covered for the players more than once by taking the blame.


4) Our young players are getting worse under Craver. How does EDU go from being rookie of the year last year with so much expectations (European teams were scouting him) to being so ineffective this year? Is Carver ruining his development? Has Carver used him in his most effective role.

There are a thousand reasons why Edu might be playing worse, one of them might be that he believes his own hype, who knows?


I think Mo should fire the caoch who has become a cancer to the team and NMO should step in as coach for the remainder of the season. Things can't get any worse. At least we won't have to hear all the crying and blaming that comes from Carver.

You think Mo should take over tactics and player deployment for the rest of the season?

FAIL!


carver should go back to playing the bagpipes.

I would have thought Mo would be a better candidate for Bagpiping.

You have too many arguments, and they're holier than a prophet.

[MrHawk]

http://www.themadhat.com/images/flying-tanks.jpg

That's how we fix our team

[RealG-TFC]

he's banned...

[ExiledRed]

he's banned...

Again?

[colman1860]

How old are you?

I made a comment that you are a follower? That's a personal attack?
Grow up. If you want byou can tell your teacher on me?

What i was referring to (as im sure you know) was that you said im going nowhere in life. No, I'm not deeply scarred by this as I don't have much respect for you anyways and have no interest in what you have to say, I was just remarking that you turned the discussion away from TFC and started insulting me.

Its also interesting how you take this one remark and answer it, neglecting to mention how i rebuffed all your arguments.

[colman1860]

he's banned...

What for?

[Tintin]

Wow, i opened this thread and i think a handbag hit me in the face.

I agree with all the points from the first post, however I have to say this team is going nowhere until we start facilitating a style of play that relies at least partially on possession of the ball. The league is played in the summer, lot of teams play in very hot climates in comparison to Europe, and to make it worse there are a lot of teams already using possession so when we lose the ball we really get fatigued doing a lot of defending.

Direct football won't work in this league and globally it's already gone out of style. We should get with the times.


You summarized the situation perfectly. We have to play possesion small pasees football when you have guys like Robert and Guevara. Thats where the coach comes in and that is why I agree with Giambac regarding Carver. Also, you have to wonder why Mo brings those players but has a coach from England. Lets get a south american or European coach in...

Also, why is Giambac banned. He is expressing is opinions. I dont get it.

[TFC_Toon]

Some spot-on analysis jloome.
We need to get that round thing in the back of the net, the lads have no confidence right now, a couple of goals and a win against Dallas will help us get back on track.

Formation wise I would like to see two up front, I know this is the MLS but most clubs have 4 descent strikers in their depth chart as a rule.

I hope Barrett can make an immediete impact for us on Sunday and get us kickstarted.

[druid]

On the original post...

You can play with one defensive midfielder and two overlapping full backs. Teams do it all the time. But it doesn't work if the wide midfielders don't track back. It is the duty of the defensive midfielder to slot in when the full back moves forward. The defense should also roll across a bit. It does leave you short of an attacking midfielder in the centre of the park as he should roll back a bit to take the space in front of defense.

It is unfortunate that our wide players have only started going for the byline and hitting the ball into the box after Dichio got injured but I don't think its a tactical mistake. Just poor timing considering our injuries.

Guevara doesn't track back but its a bit more forgivable as I'd say he's playing in the hole as a withdrawn striker rather than a midfielder. More of a 4-4-1-1 than a 4-5-1 where you'd probably playing with two wide, one defensive, and two box to box. Problem with the 4-4-1-1 is the defensive duties of the strikers aren't as clear cut. In a 4-4-2 you want your forwards to cut off supply to the opposing full backs from the center backs and force the opposing team through the middle of the park or go route one and punt the ball up the park.

Laurent is lazy. He leaves his defender exposed all the time. His delivery from corners is unforgivable. He wanders all over the park and I wouldn't be surprised if Laurent's continued inclusion is causing some problems in the dressing room. It certainly pisses me off.

Its also worth mentioning the lack of solidity in our defensive lineup. There have been far too many changes in the season for a good back line. Part of that is the olympics and part is the MLS's refusal to consider international games when building the season schedule. Its also down to Carver and Mo.

I think the points about movement and passing are bang on. We're being out passed and forced to chase the game far too often. A short passing game would also probably be more effective for our climate and pitch.

On Carver: He has no experience. Previous to taking over at TFC he'd won five matches. He has made several unforgivable decisions. His substitutions against Montreal and Vancouver were unorthodox in the extreme. If I was in charge I'd certainly give him a warning and let him know his job is on the line for our ejection.

On the coaching setup: the Brits don't usually work in a Director of Football/Head Coach setup. Usually there's a manager and that's it. Its not surprising that our two back office Brits are having trouble making it work. They've no experience with it.

[jloome]

On the original post...

You can play with one defensive midfielder and two overlapping full backs. Teams do it all the time. But it doesn't work if the wide midfielders don't track back. It is the duty of the defensive midfielder to slot in when the full back moves forward. The defense should also roll across a bit. It does leave you short of an attacking midfielder in the centre of the park as he should roll back a bit to take the space in front of defense..

There's a difference between having your fullbacks join the offensive play and having them OVERLAP, and become the winger. It is suicidal at this level of football to leave five forward and five back, with only on central midfield to help the backline. And even if you do go for the former, you don't really have two atacking fullbacks, because whoever is most advanced should be prompting his opposite number to recess slightly in case the defense needs to shift field.

Plus, we have at least one winger in Laurent Robert who has never been a defensive player, and we knew that taking him on. So expecting him to track back to Jimmy's spot is a bit unrealistic. Also, it's one thing to have them switch positions on a cross-over. It's quite another to have a situation as we do with Brennan and Wynne where they're so far up the pitch, the winger would have to out-and-out play the fullback position to make up for it. Again, not realistic. And if you watch a bit more of those teams who do it "all the time", what you'll find is that, yes, they use both the mids and the fullbacks offensively, but not at the same time. When fullbacks are crossing over regularly with wingers, you'll nearly always find both central midfielders laying back, because almost no one at top level football over there expects wingers to be effective defenders. Even if they DO take the fullback's responsibilities. It's a question of picking your poison: if you're playing the wing with the intent of either cutting them inside or crossing, you don't want your entire team driving into the box, or you'll get hammered on the break-out.


Guevara doesn't track back but its a bit more forgivable as I'd say he's playing in the hole as a withdrawn striker rather than a midfielder..

But he's not. That's where he's SUPPOSED to be playing, but if you actually watch the game film, he's playing way far back for the player "in the hole". That hasn't stopped him from occasionally getting forward quickly enough to still fullfill the responsibility, but for the most part he's well behind both wingers when they're approaching the byline when he should be closer to the top of the box. He's playing according to his custom, but that' doesn't fit the role of a guy in the hole.



Laurent is lazy. He leaves his defender exposed all the time. His delivery from corners is unforgivable. He wanders all over the park and I wouldn't be surprised if Laurent's continued inclusion is causing some problems in the dressing room. It certainly pisses me off.

His corners were unforgiveably bad last game, but they haven't typically been this season. He isn't lazy, he's just terrible at defense and always has been, plus he has 32 year old legs, which matters more for a winger than just about anyone else. Carver admitted he was a one-way player when he got him. Look how many times he's done an insane sprint for a ball that's rolling out -- lazy guys don't do that.


Its also worth mentioning the lack of solidity in our defensive lineup. There have been far too many changes in the season for a good back line. Part of that is the olympics and part is the MLS's refusal to consider international games when building the season schedule. Its also down to Carver and Mo.

Team consistency, in MLS? Better hope for good health, because the cap and bench depth in this league are ridiculous. But you're right, this is hurting us right now. Not sure what the answer is; it seems a lot of "depth" coverage issues in MLS are decided by luck; if you're lucky enough to have striker depth, ala New England, it doesn't matter as much when a star player like Twellman goes down for nearly half the season.

Also I'm not sure this is a backline issue as much as a frontline one. Velez, Marshall, brennan and wynne have been the most consistently chosen for their position on the team. They're just not very good defensively; both Jimmy and Wynne are offensive fullbacks and both Velez and Marshall have obvious concentration issues.


I think the points about movement and passing are bang on. We're being out passed and forced to chase the game far too often. A short passing game would also probably be more effective for our climate and pitch.

It's almost as if we try that, but give it up at the first sign of hard pressure and revert to long balls either to wingers or the man up top. Our midifeld frequently isn't directing play as a result.


On Carver: He has no experience. Previous to taking over at TFC he'd won five matches. He has made several unforgivable decisions. His substitutions against Montreal and Vancouver were unorthodox in the extreme. If I was in charge I'd certainly give him a warning and let him know his job is on the line for our ejection.

Disagree on this one. He was field boss at Newcastle for four years, which is worth a heck of lot more in experience than, say, Hyndman's years of US college coaching. Gullit, who worked with him at newcastle, has already said publicly how much he respects Carver's coaching ability. I think the question at this point is whether being a player's favourite as a field coach translates well into the head man job. So far, he's obviously feeling his way a bit. But that doesn't mean he doesn't have a good football mind, so I think he gets at least one more season.


On the coaching setup: the Brits don't usually work in a Director of Football/Head Coach setup. Usually there's a manager and that's it. Its not surprising that our two back office Brits are having trouble making it work. They've no experience with it.

That's not correct. There's often several director level positions (ala Dennis Wise at Newcastle, Grant at Chelsea prior to taking over as head coach) a manager, an assistant manager, and at least three first team coaches, including one for offensive players, one for defensive and a goalkeeping coach. Plus, sometimes there's a separate coach for the reserves. In England, Mo's job would be called executive director of football, while Carver would be manager. But other than that, there's not much difference -- except that Mo doesn't seem to be working, as far as we know, from his manager's wish list, which is typically the case. That's the one big difference (although given the ties between Carver and Newcastle, you have to figure he was part of why Robert is here.)

[I_AM_CANADIAN]

At most European clubs, the manager does take care of transfers. Hence Fergie trying to sign Berbatov, Mourinho trying to pry Lampard away from Chelsea, etc.

And I'd really prefer a 4-5-1 with Wynne and Brennan pushing up than a 4-4-1 with Guevara in the "Del Piero role", behind Dichio. Robert and Ricketts are both offensive midfielders, the idea is that you have two holding midfielders in Edu and Robinson, and Robert and Ricketts don't have to sprint all the way back and therefore make counterattacks along the wing impossible.

[druid]

There's a difference between having your fullbacks join the offensive play and having them OVERLAP, and become the winger. It is suicidal at this level of football to leave five forward and five back, with only on central midfield to help the backline. And even if you do go for the former, you don't really have two atacking fullbacks, because whoever is most advanced should be prompting his opposite number to recess slightly in case the defense needs to shift field.

Teams in every league and every tournament in the world makes this tactic work and its real easy for the manager to yell from the side lines and tell the defenders to concentrate on their defensive duties rather than get forward if that's required. And it doesn't matter who you stick back there, if they never have cover from their wide player they'll sink as soon as the opposing full back overlaps.



Plus, we have at least one winger in Laurent Robert who has never been a defensive player, and we knew that taking him on. So expecting him to track back to Jimmy's spot is a bit unrealistic. Also, it's one thing to have them switch positions on a cross-over. It's quite another to have a situation as we do with Brennan and Wynne where they're so far up the pitch, the winger would have to out-and-out play the fullback position to make up for it. Again, not realistic. And if you watch a bit more of those teams who do it "all the time", what you'll find is that, yes, they use both the mids and the fullbacks offensively, but not at the same time. When fullbacks are crossing over regularly with wingers, you'll nearly always find both central midfielders laying back, because almost no one at top level football over there expects wingers to be effective defenders. Even if they DO take the fullback's responsibilities. It's a question of picking your poison: if you're playing the wing with the intent of either cutting them inside or crossing, you don't want your entire team driving into the box, or you'll get hammered on the break-out.

All wide players in the todays game are expected to track back. If he can't track back we shouldn't have bought him.


But he's not. That's where he's SUPPOSED to be playing, but if you actually watch the game film, he's playing way far back for the player "in the hole". That hasn't stopped him from occasionally getting forward quickly enough to still fullfill the responsibility, but for the most part he's well behind both wingers when they're approaching the byline when he should be closer to the top of the box. He's playing according to his custom, but that' doesn't fit the role of a guy in the hole.

I never said he was doing his job properly, I said that I didn't expect him to track back and that its not really a 4-5-1. If it was there wouldn't really be a place for him.


His corners were unforgiveably bad last game, but they haven't typically been this season. He isn't lazy, he's just terrible at defense and always has been, plus he has 32 year old legs, which matters more for a winger than just about anyone else. Carver admitted he was a one-way player when he got him. Look how many times he's done an insane sprint for a ball that's rolling out -- lazy guys don't do that.

Other times he strolls around field wandering near and far. All this proves is that he's moody. And lazy.


Also I'm not sure this is a backline issue as much as a frontline one. Velez, Marshall, brennan and wynne have been the most consistently chosen for their position on the team. They're just not very good defensively; both Jimmy and Wynne are offensive fullbacks and both Velez and Marshall have obvious concentration issues.

I'm ok with our back line and the way they're playing, though if Carvers interviews and substitutions are anything to go by he's got a good chance of ruining several of them. Young center backs can need a lot of care and tending. They need stability. They don't need to be substituted at the 80th minute.



Disagree on this one. He was field boss at Newcastle for four years, which is worth a heck of lot more in experience than, say, Hyndman's years of US college coaching. Gullit, who worked with him at newcastle, has already said publicly how much he respects Carver's coaching ability. I think the question at this point is whether being a player's favourite as a field coach translates well into the head man job. So far, he's obviously feeling his way a bit. But that doesn't mean he doesn't have a good football mind, so I think he gets at least one more season.

I think you've said it yourself. Some people liked him as a coach. Doesn't mean he'll be a good manager.


That's not correct. There's often several director level positions (ala Dennis Wise at Newcastle, Grant at Chelsea prior to taking over as head coach) a manager, an assistant manager, and at least three first team coaches, including one for offensive players, one for defensive and a goalkeeping coach. Plus, sometimes there's a separate coach for the reserves. In England, Mo's job would be called executive director of football, while Carver would be manager. But other than that, there's not much difference -- except that Mo doesn't seem to be working, as far as we know, from his manager's wish list, which is typically the case. That's the one big difference (although given the ties between Carver and Newcastle, you have to figure he was part of why Robert is here.)

Actually it is.

Wise has never worked at Newcastle. I think you're thinking of Robson.

And Chelsea sucked with a Director and Manager and the Special One quit because of it. If you do a little more reading I think you'll find that a single Manager setup is the most common in Britain. Spurs being the notable exception. Director and Head Coach is more common on the continent where, more often than not, the players purchased are chosen by the director with some input from the Coach. And it still doesn't change the fact that Carver and Mo probably don't have the required exposure and experience to the system to make it work.

[I_AM_CANADIAN]

How far does Beckham track back? How about Cristiano Ronaldo? I don't think he gets stick for not defending enough...

Robert is not a wing back, he's an attacking midfielder. In a 5-4-1 he'd be expected to track back all the way. You see teams Italy playing an overlapping style, for instance at the 2006 World Cup you had Grosso pushing up and Perrotta dropping back into his position, but Carver's English, and in the standard English 4-5-1 or 4-4-2 you have an attacking winger and the defender playing behind them is expected to be able to take care of himself. When Man United won the Treble, you never saw Ryan Giggs or David Beckham running all the way back to where Stam or Neville were. I don't know where you're getting this idea that effective wingers have to be defenders, midfielders and strikers all at once.

[druid]

How far does Beckham track back? How about Cristiano Ronaldo? I don't think he gets stick for not defending enough...

Robert is not a wing back, he's an attacking midfielder. In a 5-4-1 he'd be expected to track back all the way. You see teams Italy playing an overlapping style, for instance at the 2006 World Cup you had Grosso pushing up and Perrotta dropping back into his position, but Carver's English, and in the standard English 4-5-1 or 4-4-2 you have an attacking winger and the defender playing behind them is expected to be able to take care of himself. When Man United won the Treble, you never saw Ryan Giggs or David Beckham running all the way back to where Stam or Neville were. I don't know where you're getting this idea that effective wingers have to be defenders, midfielders and strikers all at once.

I think people are misunderstanding the meaning of tracking back. Generally it means occupying the space in front of the full back when not in possession of the ball. It does not entail being a full back. It usually means marking the second man on the wing, helping the full back regain the ball or cutting off passing lines. Its also referred to as providing cover.

And all the greats do it. If they don't the full back gets shredded. The old days of the 4-2-4 with no defensive duties for the wide men are long gone.

[tlear]

Question is realistically can we get a better player for Robert's position? He setup some goals, could have been better if we had better people in the striker position.

As was mentioned part of the problem is that Brennan behind him loves going forward a lot and is actually good at it and works great with Robert on the overlap but is not the best on defense. So we get caught there sometimes. When Dunivant was playing that position I think he was doing it in a more defensive fashion and the whole thing looked "safer".

Formation wise, I don't know what Guevara is used to but it is probably not EPL style.. to me it seems like he just floats around kindof looking for the ball :) I actually love seeing him disposes people time to time.

I personally like the 5 man midfield a lot the games we won during our "good" stretch we controlled the midfield really well. I honestly not sure what changed. My guess is that we are really missing Dichio a lot, he helped with holding possession and gave us a good outlet, not to mention being good at defending set plays. We need him back :(

[jloome]

Wise has never worked at Newcastle. I think you're thinking of Robson.

And Chelsea sucked with a Director and Manager and the Special One quit because of it. If you do a little more reading I think you'll find that a single Manager setup is the most common in Britain. Spurs being the notable exception. Director and Head Coach is more common on the continent where, more often than not, the players purchased are chosen by the director with some input from the Coach. And it still doesn't change the fact that Carver and Mo probably don't have the required exposure and experience to the system to make it work.

Dude, he's been Newcastle's executive director since last year, named right after they brought Keegan in (check his wiki bio if you don't believe me.). And I'm not saying when it's done over there it works, but it is becoming increasingly common.

Almost EVERY team has an assistant manager as well, ala Queiroz(until recently) at United, Sammy Lee at Liverpool etc. . And three coaches. I'm not sure how many have directors veto-ing transfers, but even at Man Utd Ferguson still technically has to get board approval.

The one big difference here is that, as far as we know, Carver has no say in transfers. But a) I don't believe Mo's stupid enough to force players on his manager and b) the rest of the differences are in title, not actual work function.

As for overlapping backs, I think we're speaking at cross-purposes. Lots of teams may do it, but other players on the field have to adjust into defensive positions while it's going on. What I'm trying to explain is that we quite frequently seem to end up with every player save our two centre halfs in the other end. Even if you assume Robbo is dropping back defensively to adjust -- and he sometimes isn't, even though he does a generally good job defensively -- it's obvious we can't push up that many at the same time and expect people to pick up defensive assignments. Why? Because we've been trying it all season without any success. In fact, if you back over the losing skid and look at how many of those goals resulted from three or four opponents simultaneously beating our back line, it just demonstrates that we're too offensive in our approach.

[druid]

Dude, he's been Newcastle's executive director since last year, named right after they brought Keegan in (check his wiki bio if you don't believe me.). And I'm not saying when it's done over there it works, but it is becoming increasingly common.

I stand corrected on Wise.

As to whether its becoming more common... I don't know. Newcastle picked it up, Chelsea dropped it. Many British managers won't work with a director of football and those clubs that use it are still greatly out numbered.


Almost EVERY team has an assistant manager as well, ala Queiroz(until recently) at United, Sammy Lee at Liverpool etc. . And three coaches. I'm not sure how many have directors veto-ing transfers, but even at Man Utd Ferguson still technically has to get board approval.

Managers usually put together their own back room staff. How they set it up isn't all that relevant to this discussion. And yes they do get board approval but again, I don't think its germane to the discussion.


The one big difference here is that, as far as we know, Carver has no say in transfers. But a) I don't believe Mo's stupid enough to force players on his manager and b) the rest of the differences are in title, not actual work function.

Basically we have two guys who have never filled their roles before working in a system they've never used. And you're telling me that it isn't going to effect how cohesive our team is or how well our purchases fit the system of play?


As for overlapping backs, I think we're speaking at cross-purposes. Lots of teams may do it, but other players on the field have to adjust into defensive positions while it's going on. What I'm trying to explain is that we quite frequently seem to end up with every player save our two centre halfs in the other end. Even if you assume Robbo is dropping back defensively to adjust -- and he sometimes isn't, even though he does a generally good job defensively -- it's obvious we can't push up that many at the same time and expect people to pick up defensive assignments. Why? Because we've been trying it all season without any success. In fact, if you back over the losing skid and look at how many of those goals resulted from three or four opponents simultaneously beating our back line, it just demonstrates that we're too offensive in our approach.

To my memory (I don't have a library of games to re-watch for the sake of the thread) most of the initial goals we've given up have been because the opposing team has passed right through us. I think its more down to organization on the pitch than the style of our full backs. Too much space between midfield and defense, not holding our shape, and Robert providing no cover. Obviously when we go a goal down we have to chase the game and we're more vulnerable to the counter attack.

I think that most of the problems that TFC has, aside from the front line, are fixable with good management, practice, and coaching. Perhaps even the front line if we changed our tactics to suite our strikers. This is what Carver should be bringing to the table. Pick your system, pick your best 11, train, train, train, train, and train again. If anyone is not working hard, they can sit it out. Assuming that you still have the support of your dressing room.

I do think he needs to decide if he's going to accommodate Guevara or Laurent. Laurent's position and type fits into our system better but he's not contributing enough to warrant his position. Bench him for a game and find out if he's willing to put in the effort. If not... well we won't be the first club to get shot of him because of his ethic. If he's going to keep Guevara buy a good all round center forward to compete with Dichio for the starting spot. We obviously need two.