MLSE (TFC) Involvement in CPL?

[105]

From Kurt's article in Sun:



NEW CANADIAN LEAGUE

The Canadian Soccer Association (CSA) remains bullish about forming a new Canadian league to foster talent for Canada’s men’s national team.

While details remain few and far between, it’s believed the CSA is targeting 2018 as its launch date.

In the meantime, TFC president Bill Manning and MLSE chairman Larry Tanenbaum will meet with CSA officials, including president Victor Montagliani, later this month to discuss the proposed league.

Toronto’s top brass told the Sun earlier this year they were largely in the dark as to how the so-called “Canadian Premier League” might impact Major League Soccer. But it appears they’re about to find out. “Opportunities for more Canadian players is something Toronto FC wants to support,” Manning told the Toronto Sun last week. “We just have to figure out how we can be involved.

“Is it the right model? Is it some kind of hybrid with the USL? We want to have those conversations and be supportive of it. If the CPL is going to go forward, we want to be involved.”

Additional CPL teams in Toronto and Hamilton have been rumoured. Proposed salary caps have been bandied. Yet, the CSA hasn’t provided much — if any — information.

“I don’t want to create confusion in the market place,” Manning said. “I told Victor we want to be involved and want to be at the table when this league or division comes about.”

Manning later added: “It’s not a competitor to MLS.”

The question, though, is what the CSA wants it to be.

Having MLS affiliation would undoubtedly give the CPL a minor-league feel.

“If we can provide for our young players coming up and (TFC) can put a team in that league, we’re interested,” Manning added



http://www.torontosun.com/2016/09/19/mls-crunches-the-numbers-and-takes-away-tfcs-x

[Kamp Berg]

This seems like a good thing to me. The whole Canadian inferiority thing is getting really tiring, there is nothing wrong with the CPL being akin to the USL when it starts out. In fact, I think that would be a great start. Call it Div1 still, but give it time to develop. The possibility of a lot of home town heroes will be enough of a draw if it's marketed right. Dropping the comparisons to other leagues would go along way to creating a positive buzz.
Plus being from Niagara, it would bring me great joy to watch a Hamilton team routinely beat a Toronto team! LOL

[105]

I wonder if allowing a TFC II into the league would make it seem like a feeder/minor league. I think they are more likely to put a team in a suburb like Vaughan or Mississuaga than allowing a TFC II type team into the league.

[Red CB Toronto]

What would happen if the CSA said now that Canada has its own league we feel it's only appropriate that all pro teams in this country play in it. Truth be told if they really wanted too they could do it.

[nfitz]

What would happen if the CSA said now that Canada has its own league we feel it's only appropriate that all pro teams in this country play in it. Truth be told if they really wanted too they could do it.If Wales has been unable to keep Cardiff and Swansea - and even Newport from being in the Football League, I'm not sure CSA is going to be able to realistically pull the Canadian teams from MLS.

[C.Ronaldo]

cant allow it to be a reserve team where players come and go to the first team disrupting the CPLs team
It will be silly to have TFCs team win the CPL and not go on to the Canadian champions league

TFC2 so far isnt a great success if looked upon independently

[Kamp Berg]

I'm sure from a CSA point of view any team fielded by TFC would have to be completely independent, ie. players could not be transferred to other TFC teams without it being considered a real transaction like any other trade or acquisition. It would be suicide to try to fight it out with MLS right now, suicide.

[KurtLarSUN]

What's the harm of allowing TFC II or TFC III to compete in this league?
In my opinion, "optics" isn't a good enough excuse.
MLSE has invested more in the Canadian player than any other entity in history. And now you're going to exclude them?
I just don't get that.

[nfitz]

What's the harm of allowing TFC II or TFC III to compete in this league?
In my opinion, "optics" isn't a good enough excuse.
MLSE has invested more in the Canadian player than any other entity in history. And now you're going to exclude them?
I just don't get that.I don't think people have said exclude MLSE. Just that they don't want a reserve squad in the league. That won't bring in the punters.

[105]

What's the harm of allowing TFC II or TFC III to compete in this league?
In my opinion, "optics" isn't a good enough excuse.
MLSE has invested more in the Canadian player than any other entity in history. And now you're going to exclude them?
I just don't get that.

I guess it would be like Chelsea being allowed to field their second team in the Scottish league. Optics do play a role, especially when trying to market/sell the league.

[KurtLarSUN]

I guess it would be like Chelsea being allowed to field their second team in the Scottish league. Optics do play a role, especially when trying to market/sell the league.

But we're talking about an extreme circumstance here.
Listen, I'm just being honest when I say the CPL will be less publicized than the Wolfpack/Rock in Toronto.
It's going to be a developmental league.
I'm sully supportive of it. But am kind of perplexed by the romantic view some people have.

[nfitz]

Is the NASL a developmental league?

[PopePouri]

I don't the CSA would invest this amount of time and money if it wasn't a D1 league, hence no reserve teams. TFC will probably ask about affiliations and loan opportunities.

I foresee it starting similar to TFC before the Canadian quota was eased. That'll grab players from wherever they can. Canadian journeyman, supplemental draft picks, previous USL/NASL players and lots from L1O/other development leagues. Players like Matt Stinson, Dylan Carriero, Jonathan Lao will likely get contracts. I also expect good players/starters will be internationals due to the dilution of talent.

[KurtLarSUN]

Is the NASL a developmental league?

It's barely a league.
And I don't think it's developmental as most players who leave MLS go to NASL. NASL players rarely come to MLS.

[105]

But we're talking about an extreme circumstance here.
Listen, I'm just being honest when I say the CPL will be less publicized than the Wolfpack/Rock in Toronto.
It's going to be a developmental league.
I'm sully supportive of it. But am kind of perplexed by the romantic view some people have.

I agree that as long as the big 3 are in the MLS, this league will be viewed as 2nd tier. It would be in the CPL's best interest to include MLSE because they have a lot of money and power, but the new franchise would have to be a separate entity not tied to TFC directly. But from MLSE's standpoint, why would they operate another team that competes with TFC? MLSE will be out if they can't field one of their reserve teams. But from everything I've read, the CPL isn't interested in fielding feeder teams.

What eventually happens is I think the CPL finds another owner, the team is put in a suburb of Toronto and they try to attract 5-6K people initially. Which is what they will probably do with the Van/Mon markets as well.


9 team league, like the CFL:

Toronto Suburb
Montreal Suburb
Vancouver Suburb
Ottawa
Regina
Edmonton
Calgary
Hamilton
Winnipeg

[jabbronies]

What would happen if the CSA said now that Canada has its own league we feel it's only appropriate that all pro teams in this country play in it. Truth be told if they really wanted too they could do it.

The CSA would be stupid to do so and I hope that all 3 Canadian MLS teams would be smart enough to tell them to go fuck themselves if they did try and pull that bullshit.

The CSA is still the same bumbling bunch of idiots that have failed time and time again to do anything significant with soccer in this country. I don't see any change that tells me they have matured as a federation and TBH I see the fate of this CPL going the same path that every other league in this country has gone - in the shitter.

if the CSA were wise, they would bring in some real soccer business muscle to build this league - people who have a track record of building and sustaining a league from nothing.

CPL will never be bigger than MLS. It's a small league, equivalent to USL at best. The economy isn't there to sustain it.

The interest isn't there to fill stadiums to 30K+ per game - TBH I doubt they will get 15K per game. 5-10K stadiums at best.
I don't see major networks picking it up, only cable access TV contracts - so essentially nothing in terms of TV revenue.

Keeping all that in mind - it only works if it's a league where teams can be bussed around to games - the league won't be able to fly teams all over the country and house them in hotels. There is just no money for that shit.

The CSA will need to be very fucking creative to pull this off - and I reiterate, they have done nothing in the past 40, 50, 60 years to prove they are capable pulling this off.

[Fort York Redcoat]

It's barely a league.
And I don't think it's developmental as most players who leave MLS go to NASL. NASL players rarely come to MLS.

This is North America. The games structure is still young. That's what these meetings are about. We have the pleasure of seeing these changes happen to see what sticks, what will grow. If the present American pyramid isn't enough here (and it's not) then of course we'll see different partnerships occur between leagues as they have in only the last 5-10 years.

[Fort York Redcoat]

The CSA will need to be very fucking creative to pull this off - and I reiterate, they have done nothing in the past 40, 50, 60 years to prove they are capable pulling this off.

We have a Canadian running CONCACAF. Never is an absolute I won't use for as long as his term.

[Fort York Redcoat]

This seems like a good thing to me. The whole Canadian inferiority thing is getting really tiring, there is nothing wrong with the CPL being akin to the USL when it starts out. In fact, I think that would be a great start. Call it Div1 still, but give it time to develop. The possibility of a lot of home town heroes will be enough of a draw if it's marketed right. Dropping the comparisons to other leagues would go along way to creating a positive buzz.
Plus being from Niagara, it would bring me great joy to watch a Hamilton team routinely beat a Toronto team! LOL

See this fascinates me.

We're discussing this like Toronto can add teams to almost every league here. TFC(and the other 2 Canadian teams) I-III.

The NA model is farm teams in smaller cities. With Kurts mention of NASL I'd site that just because Ottawa trades went one way down the "pyramid" I don't see why the partnership couldn't change over time. It only takes some consistency for stability and acceptance.

Wherever they land on the relationship of PCL to the rest of the game in the country, I'm for seeing what happens. Trying to predict the future state of the game is fools play.

Remember how people were happy with TFC Accies joining the CSL? I know I hoped for more from it. Like straightening out the league, for one.

[Soccer Mum]

I don't like the idea of having TFC farm team in the new CPL. We need to promote a DIV 1 league that is not viewed as a feeder league. "Optics" is definitely a thing. We need these clubs to play in the Voyageurs Cup.



Imagine a TFC roadie to Hamilton on the train? Would be crazy.

[KurtLarSUN]

I don't like the idea of having TFC farm team in the new CPL. We need to promote a DIV 1 league that is not viewed as a feeder league. "Optics" is definitely a thing. We need these clubs to play in the Voyageurs Cup.



Imagine a TFC roadie to Hamilton on the train? Would be crazy.

Agree on the Cup part.
But I think just because there isn't a "TFC B" in the league won't mean Canadians won't view the league for what it will be ...

[Oldtimer]

The interest isn't there to fill stadiums to 30K+ per game - TBH I doubt they will get 15K per game. 5-10K stadiums at best.
I don't see major networks picking it up, only cable access TV contracts - so essentially nothing in terms of TV revenue.


Any CPL would be at best a CFL to the NFL. Realistically, it won't even be that because there won't be the history, people will perceive it as very minor league. It doesn't matter if you sanction it as D1 if there isn't the money or the players.

The Toronto Lynx topped out at 2,744 spectators per game in 1999. Bruno Hartrell and his wife lost a lot of money pursuing their passion.

Given that TFC and TFC II will be the competition, I doubt that an unaffiliated team could even draw 3k, so a 5k stadium would be generous.

The owner had better be prepared to lose a lot of money.

More realistic would be to fold the Canadian NASL teams into the CPL. Add a few new teams from Hamilton and such. Either ignore Toronto, or have a TFC-sponsored team far away from Toronto (like the Marlies were to the Leafs when they were in St. John's Newfoundland).

[jabbronies]

We have a Canadian running CONCACAF. Never is an absolute I won't use for as long as his term.

A Canadian running CONCACAF means nothing IMO. Still doesn't bring people to small town games, or gets them watching games on TV or gets big name sponsorships to support the league.

IMO all this means is that we could see some seedy money come into the league to help sustain it for a year or two.

[Fort York Redcoat]

A Canadian running CONCACAF means nothing IMO. Still doesn't bring people to small town games, or gets them watching games on TV or gets big name sponsorships to support the league.

IMO all this means is that we could see some seedy money come into the league to help sustain it for a year or two.

It means, simply put, that change will be easier in this country.

[C.Ronaldo]

I guess it would be like Chelsea being allowed to field their second team in the Scottish league. Optics do play a role, especially when trying to market/sell the league.

benfica and such field reserves in Div and I find it pretty silly. There's no incentive to win, just develop

[Fort York Redcoat]

benfica and such field reserves in Div and I find it pretty silly. There's no incentive to win, just develop

France. Multiple teams do it.

Meh.

Ask most of the rest of the world what they think of NA farm teams.

[OgtheDim]

What would happen if the CSA said now that Canada has its own league we feel it's only appropriate that all pro teams in this country play in it. Truth be told if they really wanted too they could do it.

They couldn't do it without losing significant investment in the Canadian game and a lot of pull within CONCACAF. That and the investments by the 3 Canadian ownership groups and the owners of the stadiums would be significantly undercut - lawsuit heaven.


Its not happening.

[C.Ronaldo]

I agree that as long as the big 3 are in the MLS, this league will be viewed as 2nd tier. It would be in the CPL's best interest to include MLSE because they have a lot of money and power, but the new franchise would have to be a separate entity not tied to TFC directly. But from MLSE's standpoint, why would they operate another team that competes with TFC? MLSE will be out if they can't field one of their reserve teams. But from everything I've read, the CPL isn't interested in fielding feeder teams.

What eventually happens is I think the CPL finds another owner, the team is put in a suburb of Toronto and they try to attract 5-6K people initially. Which is what they will probably do with the Van/Mon markets as well.


9 team league, like the CFL:

Toronto Suburb
Montreal Suburb
Vancouver Suburb
Ottawa
Regina
Edmonton
Calgary
Hamilton
Winnipeg

for Toronto id put it right at UofT if they can improve the seating, lots of visibility. make it cheap and have food trucks feed the hipsters with kids

[Fort York Redcoat]

for Toronto id put it right at UofT if they can improve the seating, lots of visibility. make it cheap and have food trucks feed the hipsters with kids

That stadium is nice. How would you improve it?

[C.Ronaldo]

Kurt

what do you think of a proper futsal league once the CPL is in place.
We really need to develop Cdn play on the ball, and we have the gym;s already set up to do it.
Then ask ronaldinho to play a season lol

[C.Ronaldo]

That stadium is nice. How would you improve it?

some temp seats that bring you a bit closer to the game

the running track separation isnt the best, but I wouldn't let it stop me form catching a few games.

Other than that I think the stadium is great

Sunday games are very doable, subway and even parking is pretty decent on Sundays in that area.

[OgtheDim]

It means, simply put, that change will be easier in this country.

Yeah I don't think people realise what it means to have a Canadian on the FIFA exec, with a mandate to start a national league in order to go after a World Cup.

If I'm running TSN or Sportsnet or CBC, I'm going to listen to the guy who has a lot of influence on TV contracts for the World Cup. That can be leveraged very easily into a TSN deal, especially with the tie in to CFL teams.

If MLSE and the other 2 Canadian teams are smart and play up the partnership, they can get a better TSN contract out of this.

The template is Fox down in the States. "You like USWNT and USMNT & World Cup? Hey, that's cool. BTW, have we got an MLS product for you!"

[Initial B]

But we're talking about an extreme circumstance here.
Listen, I'm just being honest when I say the CPL will be less publicized than the Wolfpack/Rock in Toronto.
It's going to be a developmental league.
I'm sully supportive of it. But am kind of perplexed by the romantic view some people have.
It's not a matter of being romantic, it's a matter of wanting the league to survive. It's fine if it's a developmental league like the Eredivisie, but you do not want the Canadian Public to look at the league as a minor league because it needs eyeballs on the TVs and bums in the seats if this has any hope of sustaining itself through the first decade. I think in the casual public's mind NASL is just another league at the moment, so if the CSA can get FC Edmonton and Ottawa Fury to jump ship to this new league, that would give it instant credibility. But a Toronto (or York?) team would have to be seen as a seperate club from TFC so it would have to be under MLSE ownership.

I'm really curious if the CSA is making a similar overture to Montreal and Vancouver. It seems like they could live without teams in those cities if they can get Victorian and Quebec City or board, but the GTA seems to be a must-have. I hear the CPL wants to play in stadiums that hold around 10,000 spectators. I think that's really ambitious at first. BMO field would be too big. You could probably put a team in at York University's new stadium, but I think that would be too close to TFC II. It would be better if they put a team out in Scarborough or Oshawa to spread out the footprint of the team, but there are no stadiums in that area that could hold that amount of people.

The league should sell itself as Division 1 in Canada, but act as a development league for mostly Canadian talent with some Central American influence. If I were setting the rules for the CPL, I would put a salary cap of $1.2-1.5 million with teams allowed to take 1 designated player where only $150,000 of his salary counts against the cap. Teams would consist of 24-26 players with the first 20 players being counted under the cap. Team composition would have a maximum of 8 international players (including Americans as internationals) with the rest being Canadians. I would also make it a rule that at least two of the starters must be Canadian U-23s. In an 8 team league, that would mean there would be a minimum 24 canadian players playing each week, with 16 of them being U-23s. I think there is enough quality now that you could find 24 canadians to start and still manage to play decent-looking football. I would encourage getting players from Honduras, Costa Rica, Haiti, Panama, Guatemala and other CA and Carribean countries by enticing them with better salaries than they could get playing in their own country to raise the initial quality of the game.

But I still think the only way this survives is to have a stable 8-10 year TV contract shared between TSN and Sportsnet that will offset low attendence for the first 5 years until the league becomes entrenched in the Canadian consciousness and start coming to the stadiums. It also needs to have a sponsorship with a Canadian Air Carrier to subsidize transportation costs, as that is what will kill teams, especially with a country the size of Canada.

In my mind, a Fully Functional, healthy CPL would have 10 teams with a 26 game schedule:
Western Conference: Victoria, FC Edmonton, Calgary, Saskatchewan, Winnipeg
Eastern Conference: Hamilton, GTA, Ottawa, Quebec City, Moncton/Halifax

[Soccer Mum]

It's not a matter of being romantic, it's a matter of wanting the league to survive. It's fine if it's a developmental league like the Eredivisie, but you do not want the Canadian Public to look at the league as a minor league because it needs eyeballs on the TVs and bums in the seats if this has any hope of sustaining itself through the first decade. I think in the casual public's mind NASL is just another league at the moment, so if the CSA can get FC Edmonton and Ottawa Fury to jump ship to this new league, that would give it instant credibility. But a Toronto (or York?) team would have to be seen as a seperate club from TFC so it would have to be under MLSE ownership.

I'm really curious if the CSA is making a similar overture to Montreal and Vancouver. It seems like they could live without teams in those cities if they can get Victorian and Quebec City or board, but the GTA seems to be a must-have. I hear the CPL wants to play in stadiums that hold around 10,000 spectators. I think that's really ambitious at first. BMO field would be too big. You could probably put a team in at York University's new stadium, but I think that would be too close to TFC II. It would be better if they put a team out in Scarborough or Oshawa to spread out the footprint of the team, but there are no stadiums in that area that could hold that amount of people.

The league should sell itself as Division 1 in Canada, but act as a development league for mostly Canadian talent with some Central American influence. If I were setting the rules for the CPL, I would put a salary cap of $1.2-1.5 million with teams allowed to take 1 designated player where only $150,000 of his salary counts against the cap. Teams would consist of 24-26 players with the first 20 players being counted under the cap. Team composition would have a maximum of 8 international players (including Americans as internationals) with the rest being Canadians. I would also make it a rule that at least two of the starters must be Canadian U-23s. In an 8 team league, that would mean there would be a minimum 24 canadian players playing each week, with 16 of them being U-23s. I think there is enough quality now that you could find 24 canadians to start and still manage to play decent-looking football. I would encourage getting players from Honduras, Costa Rica, Haiti, Panama, Guatemala and other CA and Carribean countries by enticing them with better salaries than they could get playing in their own country to raise the initial quality of the game.

But I still think the only way this survives is to have a stable 8-10 year TV contract shared between TSN and Sportsnet that will offset low attendence for the first 5 years until the league becomes entrenched in the Canadian consciousness and start coming to the stadiums. It also needs to have a sponsorship with a Canadian Air Carrier to subsidize transportation costs, as that is what will kill teams, especially with a country the size of Canada.

Excellent post!

Just curious to hear your thoughts, do you think another GTA team would be too much given Hamilton will be in?

[C.Ronaldo]

The CFL without a Toronto team isnt a true Canadian league hence they keep the team afloat.

the CPL needs a Toronto team in the same manner, no matter how small. It then needs the CPL champ to beat TFC in the Canada cup.

[mistercorporate]

I don't care for another GTA team (TFC fills that role quite well) but would be super psyched for teams in smaller markets like Kitchener, London, Oshawa and Barrie.

[mistercorporate]

Kurt

what do you think of a proper futsal league once the CPL is in place.
We really need to develop Cdn play on the ball, and we have the gym;s already set up to do it.
Then ask ronaldinho to play a season lol

That's actually a great idea!

[jabbronies]

I keep seeing a lot of ideas surround already established teams "jumping ship" from the established leagues they are already a part of.

What incentive is there for these teams to jump into a league that has zero credibility, run by an association, the CSA, which has even less credibility than that!!!

I don't get the logic.

[OgtheDim]

... It also needs to have a sponsorship with a Canadian Air Carrier to subsidize transportation costs, as that is what will kill teams, especially with a country the size of Canada.

Wait a second...where did the current MLSE head honcho work again? Wasn't it for that airline with the name on a certain arena in town?

Yeah, if I was Victor M I'd be maximising all the synergies I possibly could.

[OgtheDim]

...

What incentive is there for these teams to jump into a league that has zero credibility, run by an association, the CSA, which has even less credibility than that!!!

I don't get the logic.

The CSA at the national level of getting a CPL going prior to Victor M is not the same as the CSA now.

[Yohan]

I keep seeing a lot of ideas surround already established teams "jumping ship" from the established leagues they are already a part of.

What incentive is there for these teams to jump into a league that has zero credibility, run by an association, the CSA, which has even less credibility than that!!!

I don't get the logic.
Because NASL is a sinking ship. It's trying hard to be an alt Div 1 team in NA, but it's got so many issues that it's unstable.

[TFC Tifoso]

But we're talking about an extreme circumstance here.
Listen, I'm just being honest when I say the CPL will be less publicized than the Wolfpack/Rock in Toronto.
It's going to be a developmental league.
I'm sully supportive of it. But am kind of perplexed by the romantic view some people have.


Agree on the Cup part.
But I think just because there isn't a "TFC B" in the league won't mean Canadians won't view the league for what it will be ...

exactly......look, the idea of a CPL is great for the development of Canadian players, but as far as perception goes, it will always be viewed as the "CFL" to the MLS' "NFL", because MLS will always have the bigger budget, and hence attract the bigger names.....if having a TFC II in the league helps develop players for TFC and Canada, that should be all that matters in the big picture, no?.....

sorry to draw the comparison of the Football leagues, but its a good example.....

[C.Ronaldo]

I don't care for another GTA team (TFC fills that role quite well) but would be super psyched for teams in smaller markets like Kitchener, London, Oshawa and Barrie.

i would go to Barrie games while im in cottage country

[C.Ronaldo]

exactly......look, the idea of a CPL is great for the development of Canadian players, but as far as perception goes, it will always be viewed as the "CFL" to the MLS' "NFL", because MLS will always have the bigger budget, and hence attract the bigger names.....if having a TFC II in the league helps develop players for TFC and Canada, that should be all that matters in the big picture, no?.....

sorry to draw the comparison of the Football leagues, but its a good example.....

as long as CPL gets a cut of a player transfer from tfc B to TFC then cool, but otherwise whats the incentive for CPL to develop future TFCers.

in theory, CPL teams can easily one day be better than some MLS teams. MLS has a its budget in its 3 DPs. a well coached and balanced team from the CPL wouldn't get wiped out. It shouldn't/wouldn't be like a real madrid beat down on some div 2 team

[nfitz]

It's barely a league.
And I don't think it's developmental as most players who leave MLS go to NASL. NASL players rarely come to MLS.They (NASL) are averaging about 4,500 a game attendance. That's about the median attendance in the Scottish Premier League (6 teams average more, 6 teams average less).

Is the Scottish Premier League barely a league?

[jabbronies]

as long as CPL gets a cut of a player transfer from tfc B to TFC then cool, but otherwise whats the incentive for CPL to develop future TFCers.

Why would TFC agree to this? That makes no sense to me that TFC would have to pay money to access their assets?

How do the Leafs and marlies operate? or the Jays and Bisons?
That's how I see a CPL league working.

[TFC Tifoso]

as long as CPL gets a cut of a player transfer from tfc B to TFC then cool, but otherwise whats the incentive for CPL to develop future TFCers.

in theory, CPL teams can easily one day be better than some MLS teams. MLS has a its budget in its 3 DPs. a well coached and balanced team from the CPL wouldn't get wiped out. It shouldn't/wouldn't be like a real madrid beat down on some div 2 team

how so?.....teams in small Canadian markets would not be able to compete with at least the top half of MLS (ie. the teams that spend).....

Also, I don't see why TFC would have to pay a fee to get a player from a TFC II team playing in the CPL.....from another team within the league, sure......

[TFC Tifoso]

Why would TFC agree to this? That makes no sense to me that TFC would have to pay money to access their assets?

How do the Leafs and marlies operate? or the Jays and Bisons?
That's how I see a CPL league working.

as it pertains to TFC, IMFC, and VWFC and their "minor teams"....yes it should work like traditional NA "farm teams"....but from any other team team in the league, the Canadian MLS teams should expect to pay a transfer if the situation ever comes up like that.....

[C.Ronaldo]

I dont mean a transfer fee per say, but I guess they would be paying this fee already through league franchise fees.

Im just saying the league cannot and should not exist just to promote players to TFC, VC, MTL.

How will this be fair to teams that don't have player promotion. they will be at a disadvantage in a capped league, why would players want to play there?

If Hamilton offers 50k, Toronto offers 50k. The player will most probably take Toronto hoping to make the senior team

[KurtLarSUN]

They (NASL) are averaging about 4,500 a game attendance. That's about the median attendance in the Scottish Premier League (6 teams average more, 6 teams average less).

Is the Scottish Premier League barely a league?

I'll be shocked if the NASL is still around in a decade. Maybe they'll sue MLS, much like the USFL attempted to sue the NFL.

[jabbronies]

I dont mean a transfer fee per say, but I guess they would be paying this fee already through league franchise fees.

Im just saying the league cannot and should not exist just to promote players to TFC, VC, MTL.

How will this be fair to teams that don't have player promotion. they will be at a disadvantage in a capped league, why would players want to play there?

If Hamilton offers 50k, Toronto offers 50k. The player will most probably take Toronto hoping to make the senior team

Ya but why else would TFC want to be involved in this if not to have a place where their players can get time on the pitch? Why invest the money?

[MartinUtd]

Last thing we need is MLSE big league-ing the CPL by decimating line ups in mid-season call up situations.

TFC2 is about player development first and foremost and you can't have them competing in a serious manner against teams that are not subject to the parent club messing with the line up on a frequent basis.

[Pookie]

This would be good for Canadian players.

We are generally asking athletes to forego a free education and play professional for sums of money that are far from life changing with limited roster spots in the MLS set aside for our youth.

How anyone thinks that the game can grow in Canada at the professional level under these circumstances is beyond me.

This would be a step forward. Yes a CPL would be minor league. And no TFC wouldn't get out of MLS/SUM to play in it. So what?

It would be an extra potential reason to give someone to stick with the game and not give it up. Might even help the MNT not be so ... um ... uncompetitive.

[KurtLarSUN]

Last thing we need is MLSE big league-ing the CPL by decimating line ups in mid-season call up situations.

TFC2 is about player development first and foremost and you can't have them competing in a serious manner against teams that are not subject to the parent club messing with the line up on a frequent basis.

I'm told TFC isn't happy with TFC II's level at the moment. Expect the USL roster to get a year or two older in the coming years to better compete with USL sides in the States. Expect TFC III to be an under-20 team with signed developmental players.

[troy1982]

as long as CPL gets a cut of a player transfer from tfc B to TFC then cool, but otherwise whats the incentive for CPL to develop future TFCers.

in theory, CPL teams can easily one day be better than some MLS teams. MLS has a its budget in its 3 DPs. a well coached and balanced team from the CPL wouldn't get wiped out. It shouldn't/wouldn't be like a real madrid beat down on some div 2 team

The CPL will be at the quality of USL at the best, but probably worst as it's players will come mainly from league 1 Ontario and other amateur leagues.
I wonder where people are thinking where these great Canadian players who are too good for MLS are going to come from.

The Ottawa Fury are burning through money at the NASL level and want to move to the USL because of cheaper travel and cheaper players. A Canadian league coast to coast will have a travel cost higher than the USL though as travel cost in Canada are higher than in the U.S.
Anyone who thinks the CPL will last more than a couple of years is disillusion IMHO

[mistercorporate]

I don't care if they're USL level, i want to see a national league which has several Ontario teams outside the GTA and develops soccer culture and CanMNT players. I would support all the Southern and Central Ontario teams!

[troy1982]

I don't care if they're USL level, i want to see a national league which has several Ontario teams outside the GTA and develops soccer culture and CanMNT players. I would support all the Southern and Central Ontario teams!

Then you should go see league 1 Ontario games as that will be the quality of the CPL.

[mistercorporate]

Then you should go see league 1 Ontario games as that will be the quality of the CPL.

I don't mind that quality of play but L1 has poor branding for their franchises, I'd prefer slightly more developed franchises with slightly bigger support. Half the fun (outside the game itself) is socializing at bars with fans and making new friends.

[DSouzaZ]

But we're talking about an extreme circumstance here.
Listen, I'm just being honest when I say the CPL will be less publicized than the Wolfpack/Rock in Toronto.
It's going to be a developmental league.
I'm sully supportive of it. But am kind of perplexed by the romantic view some people have.

Well, what's being talked about right now is:
- a league with 6-8 teams to start
- multi-millionaire owners
- a potential billionaire owner in Toronto
- $1.5-2 million dollar salary cap
- a national TV deal
- a franchise model with revenue sharing


With that kind of cap it would be competitive with the NASL in terms of salary if not slightly better, there are a lot of players around the world that would love to play for that kind of wage, and a lot of Canadian's that are currently in Europe that would be better off coming back. No one is expecting the league to be great right off the bat, but money talks, in the long run it could work. It wouldn't be able to compete with MLS, but I don't think that's what people expect. It has to be the what the Championship is to the EPL, a good level our national team players can compete at.

I don't think put a reserve team in the league is appropriate. The MLS teams can loan some of the academy kids so they gain experience, but that's the extent of I think the MLS teams should have with the league.

[TFC/ARSENAL]

Have not had a chance to read the entire thread, so if this has already been mentioned I apologize. If this league gets off the ground, there should be no argument that these teams should be allowed to compete for the Voyageurs Cup from the get go. It would be good for the league and the cup competition as well.

[TFC/ARSENAL]

9 team league, like the CFL:

Toronto Suburb
Montreal Suburb
Vancouver Suburb
Ottawa
Regina
Edmonton
Calgary
Hamilton
Winnipeg[/QUOTE]


Don't discount Halifax, Quebec City Mississauga, (as distinct from a Toronto suburb) or even the tri-cities of Kitchener, Waterloo and Cambridge. Mississauga has a population of over 3/4 of a million and the Tri-cities are almost half a million.

[jloome]

Just market it as its own team but have official affiliations. If the CPL were smart they'd cut a deal with USL and MLS to be a feeder league, but with a clause against in-season movement up the ladder, to ensure roster stability.

The only way pro soccer ever makes it in Canada is if it's marketed as competently professional, with a good atmosphere for supporters. That can happen with USL/NASL level soccer, for sure, but it's all appearances. Have a Toronto team, have a Montreal team. Have them play derbies in the Voyageurs Cup against their MLS parents. Give them different names, colors, brands. Make them technically independent but then have the two work closely.

Appearances and perception are everything when you're building a culture, a social ethic, around an idea or series of ideas. If they have good seating close to fields without football lines (perception sells to non hardcores, perception of polish) and good div. 2/3/4 level players, it can succeed.

Why not have MLS back it in part financially? MLS team roster restrictions remain in line (outside of DPs, of course) with what CFL clubs spend. Surely the hardcore grassroots supporters pushing this will realize the owners have to be able to spend money and market professionally in order to make money.

MLS for its part could take its cue from another single entity business, WWE wrestling, and use the affiliate league to develop and stoke rivalries. Local derbies between a smaller and bigger club could really push soccer forward in this country.

A CPL that's just an eight-team indie league, under-capitalized and running on the fumes of grassroots dreams will fail again.

[Gazza_55]

What would happen if the CSA said now that Canada has its own league we feel it's only appropriate that all pro teams in this country play in it. Truth be told if they really wanted too they could do it.

Legally no they couldn't do it. The lawsuit from MLS/VWFC/Impact/TFC would cost the CSA tens of millions and they still wouldn't be playing the CPL.

The only possible way to do it would be to buy the 3 MLS clubs but that costs between $1b and $2b US which I'm not sure anyone in the CSA or any future CPL owners has.

[spe18]

Legally no they couldn't do it. The lawsuit from MLS/VWFC/Impact/TFC would cost the CSA tens of millions and they still wouldn't be playing the CPL.

The only possible way to do it would be to buy the 3 MLS clubs but that costs between $1b and $2b US which I'm not sure anyone in the CSA or any future CPL owners has.

Not sure about the $1-2B figure, but it should be noted in 2006, Toronto FC could've been had for the grand sum of $10 million!

[DSouzaZ]

What's the harm of allowing TFC II or TFC III to compete in this league?
In my opinion, "optics" isn't a good enough excuse.
MLSE has invested more in the Canadian player than any other entity in history. And now you're going to exclude them?
I just don't get that.

https://sportspodcastingnetwork.com/2016/09/20/soccer-today-on-spn-radio-september-20th-2016/

The first part will provide people some perspective on the CPL

[tfcmanu]

Leave existing teams in NASL and MLS.

WEST:
Victoria
Burnaby
Calgary
Regina
Winnipeg


EAST:
Kitchener/Waterloo
Hamilton
York Region FC (Play @ York U)
Quebec City
Halifax

10 team league to start, Keep it simple.

[OgtheDim]

I'm pretty darn sure both Edmonton and Ottawa want out of NASL.

[TFC Tifoso]

I dont mean a transfer fee per say, but I guess they would be paying this fee already through league franchise fees.

Im just saying the league cannot and should not exist just to promote players to TFC, VC, MTL.

How will this be fair to teams that don't have player promotion. they will be at a disadvantage in a capped league, why would players want to play there?

If Hamilton offers 50k, Toronto offers 50k. The player will most probably take Toronto hoping to make the senior team


Last thing we need is MLSE big league-ing the CPL by decimating line ups in mid-season call up situations.

TFC2 is about player development first and foremost and you can't have them competing in a serious manner against teams that are not subject to the parent club messing with the line up on a frequent basis.


why not?......does R. Madrid's, Barca's, Bayern's, etc. "II" teams not play in lower divisions of their respective teams?.....

perhaps for the Canadian MLS teams there could be some mechanism in place to avoid it from getting out of hand, but the MLS II teams should play in the league.
I know definitely not all will agree with this statement, but imo having that attachment to MLS could bring some status to the league and keep fans of the MLS teams engaged to see how their "II" team is doing.....

Something needs to attract people to the league, and that could be it.....look, I've been to see the CSL Vaughan team at Joan of Arc HS a few times but stopped because it became too costly.....$15 a ticket to sit on metal bleachers when for $5 more I can go watch TFC......

[MartinUtd]

This might come as a surprise, but we don't have the talent pool, let alone a multi-tiered league like they do in Europe.

What happens when Benfica II wins the Segunda? They stay there.

[PopePouri]

This might come as a surprise, but we don't have the talent pool, let alone a multi-tiered league like they do in Europe.

What happens when Benfica II wins the Segunda? They stay there.

Our top tier player pool isn't that good, but we have a significant enough player pool to fill out a league.

http://www.rednationonline.ca/Articles2015/CANMNTPlayerPool.aspx

This doesn't include young pros/ex-pros playing in L1O type divisions which is probably more.

Similar to MLS, I see CPL haven't similar drop off of talent between starter and squad player. Starter quality with internationals should be around USL level (obviously depending on salary cap).

[Voodooman]

Honestly, I feel that Moncton would be a better choice than Halifax for the East.

Why not both even? Charlottetown also as great facilities at UPEI for when they hosted Canada Games.

A little off topic, but I just hate how the east coast is just forgotten always in discussions like this.

[Jpexxx]

Is it super unrealistic that MLSE buys the rights to something like the trademarks for the Blizzard (as an example)... Runs the CPL team with separate branding from TFC, and loans a handful of younger players there each season to get constant playing time at a level (eventually) higher than the USL?

[greatwhitenorf]

In an era with far less competition for the sporting consumer's dollar and attention, Thunderin' Dale Barnes couldn't make an all-Canadian soccer league happen. And that was with great help from Air Canada. I doubt this one will fly. With fans or the airline's marketing people.

http://media.gettyimages.com/photos/the-scarf-mtv-sports-director-dale-barnes-is-best-known-for-his-and-picture-id502263957

You need to get kids out to games and committed to supporting teams.

They are highly unlikely to abandon streamed highlights of MessiSuarezNeymar or FIFA video games to watch Dougie Clogger hoof it long for the Caledon Kickerz.

It's a lovely, romantic notion but until someone rolls a barrel of cash into the room, it won't fly. Especially given that beneath the veneer of doing something noble for soccer in Canada, it's actually about subsidizing worried CFL owners who see soccer as a threat to their dwindling returns.

[greatwhitenorf]

I'm pretty darn sure both Edmonton and Ottawa want out of NASL.

They would be great additions to MLS - well, Ottawa for sure - but, as we've discussed before, until someone ponies up the expansion fee or buys and moves a franchise north, that won't happen. I have family who are SSH in Ottawa and think MLS would do better there than Montreal. An Ottawa team would be a boost, too, for Montreal.

[C.Ronaldo]

Honestly, I feel that Moncton would be a better choice than Halifax for the East.

Why not both even? Charlottetown also as great facilities at UPEI for when they hosted Canada Games.

A little off topic, but I just hate how the east coast is just forgotten always in discussions like this.

just too far until they have enough teams that play east only and west only, then champs play eachother.

[C.Ronaldo]

They would be great additions to MLS - well, Ottawa for sure - but, as we've discussed before, until someone ponies up the expansion fee or buys and moves a franchise north, that won't happen. I have family who are SSH in Ottawa and think MLS would do better there than Montreal. An Ottawa team would be a boost, too, for Montreal.

true, that's 6 sellout games right there. but TV speaks in the end :(

[Detroit_TFC]

Not sure how much longer NASL will be around in its current form, prognosis is poor right now. Safe assumption that the current Canadian NASL teams will move to CPL. USL will claim 2nd tier and any successor league to NASL will probably be 3rd tier.

[Initial B]

The Ottawa Fury are burning through money at the NASL level and want to move to the USL because of cheaper travel and cheaper players. A Canadian league coast to coast will have a travel cost higher than the USL though as travel cost in Canada are higher than in the U.S.
Anyone who thinks the CPL will last more than a couple of years is disillusion IMHO
Please note that there is no National TV contract with NASL nor does the league have a sponsorship with a national airline. A TV contract paying out at least $1 million to each team's salaries and a national airline providing discount fares to teams would leave NASL in a better position than they are now. If the new CPL doesn't have a TV contract, then it is doomed. To get a TV contract, you at minimum need a BC named team (Victoria, playing out of Royal Athletic Park), a Quebec-named team (in Quebec City, playing out of PEPS stadium), and a Toronto team for TV execs to show their sponsors that they have enough Market Saturation. The top 10 Canadian markets are:

1. Toronto/Hamilton/Niagara Falls
2. Montreal/Laval
3. Vancouver/Victoria
4. Ottawa/Gatineau
5. Edmonton
6. Calgary/Lethbridge
7. Quebec City/Levis
8. Winnipeg/Brandon
9. Kitchener-Waterloo/Cambridge/Guelph
10. London/Woodstock/Wingham
11. Halifax/Dartmouth
12. St. John/Fredericton/Moncton

Saskatoon and Regina are #18 and #20 respectively, but together they're probably the equivalent of Halifax. Those markets probably contain around 80% of the TV market.

Now, the Toronto team has to be considered separate from TFC for the CPL to not be considered minor league. It could be run by MLSE, but TFC would have to loan out players to the team for a season and player contracts would be seperate from TFC. If they want to turn heads with the new league and crank up the nostalgia, they'll name them the Toronto Blizzard. To give the league legitimacy and a quality benchmark, they'll need FC Edmonton and Ottawa Fury who by end of this season will have NASL playoff pedigree.

Through watching the Ottawa Fury this year, I can see the CPL acting a lot like the NASL is now: The teams will be a place for older Canadian players to finish out their careers (Julian de Guzman), those who don't quite have what it takes to play at MLS level (Maxime Tissot), good players who are playing for a better contract (Marcel de Jong), and players coming up through the academy (Dario Conte). FC Edmonton is very similar. Multiply this team by 8 or 10 and I would be very comfortable with the pyramid set up.

[Initial B]

Honestly, I feel that Moncton would be a better choice than Halifax for the East.

Why not both even? Charlottetown also as great facilities at UPEI for when they hosted Canada Games.

A little off topic, but I just hate how the east coast is just forgotten always in discussions like this.
Maritimers FC could play out of the 10,000 seat Moncton Stadium. Halifax doesn't have one.


You need to get kids out to games and committed to supporting teams.

They are highly unlikely to abandon streamed highlights of MessiSuarezNeymar or FIFA video games to watch Dougie Clogger hoof it long for the Caledon Kickerz.

It's a lovely, romantic notion but until someone rolls a barrel of cash into the room, it won't fly. Especially given that beneath the veneer of doing something noble for soccer in Canada, it's actually about subsidizing worried CFL owners who see soccer as a threat to their dwindling returns.
There is nothing wrong with hitching a ride on the backs of worried CFL owners (or their TSN sponsor) so long as the end result is Canada gets to a World Cup again in my lifetime. Another way to increase exposure would be to lobby EA Sports to include the CPL and its players in it's FIFA18/19 video game.

[greatwhitenorf]

Please note that there is no National TV contract with NASL nor does the league have a sponsorship with a national airline. A TV contract paying out at least $1 million to each team's salaries and a national airline providing discount fares to teams would leave NASL in a better position than they are now. If the new CPL doesn't have a TV contract, then it is doomed. To get a TV contract, you at minimum need a BC named team (Victoria, playing out of Royal Athletic Park), a Quebec-named team (in Quebec City, playing out of PEPS stadium), and a Toronto team for TV execs to show their sponsors that they have enough Market Saturation. The top 10 Canadian markets are:

1. Toronto/Hamilton/Niagara Falls
2. Montreal/Laval
3. Vancouver/Victoria
4. Ottawa/Gatineau
5. Edmonton
6. Calgary/Lethbridge
7. Quebec City/Levis
8. Winnipeg/Brandon
9. Kitchener-Waterloo/Cambridge/Guelph
10. London/Woodstock/Wingham
11. Halifax/Dartmouth
12. St. John/Fredericton/Moncton

Saskatoon and Regina are #18 and #20 respectively, but together they're probably the equivalent of Halifax. Those markets probably contain around 80% of the TV market.

Now, the Toronto team has to be considered separate from TFC for the CPL to not be considered minor league. It could be run by MLSE, but TFC would have to loan out players to the team for a season and player contracts would be seperate from TFC. If they want to turn heads with the new league and crank up the nostalgia, they'll name them the Toronto Blizzard. To give the league legitimacy and a quality benchmark, they'll need FC Edmonton and Ottawa Fury who by end of this season will have NASL playoff pedigree.

Through watching the Ottawa Fury this year, I can see the CPL acting a lot like the NASL is now: The teams will be a place for older Canadian players to finish out their careers (Julian de Guzman), those who don't quite have what it takes to play at MLS level (Maxime Tissot), good players who are playing for a better contract (Marcel de Jong), and players coming up through the academy (Dario Conte). FC Edmonton is very similar. Multiply this team by 8 or 10 and I would be very comfortable with the pyramid set up.

Sounds like a plan. Which team gets to sign Carlos Valderamma?

http://images.complex.com/complex/image/upload/c_scale,f_jpg,fl_progressive,pg_1,w_1100/f_auto,q_auto/nce7hsk8gzoteh1tdqju.jpg

Or wear tribute wigs to him while sporting groundbreaking new uniforms?

http://images.complex.com/complex/image/upload/c_scale,f_jpg,fl_progressive,pg_1,w_1100/f_auto,q_auto/icpnwbnzkpofjinjgyik.jpg


It's gonna be great. Can't wait.

[TFC Tifoso]

This might come as a surprise, but we don't have the talent pool, let alone a multi-tiered league like they do in Europe.

What happens when Benfica II wins the Segunda? They stay there.

I get that, but as it stands TFC (and TFC II) function the same way the would if a CPL is formed with a TFC II in it.....only difference would be the league name unless I'm missing something....

Besides, we have no pro/rel here anyways, so teams would be staying in their respective leagues form year to year.....

[Gazza_55]

Not sure about the $1-2B figure, but it should be noted in 2006, Toronto FC could've been had for the grand sum of $10 million!

It's not 2006 anymore and the latest Forbes valuation is $245m US. Let's say the CPL wants to try and remove all the Cdn MLS Teams in 2018. The cost to purchase the clubs and basically have them go bankrupt in the CPL is at least double their current value IMO. In TFC's case they still are obligated to pay to the BMO Field Upgrades, KIA Training Centre etc.....

[OgtheDim]

....
It's a lovely, romantic notion but until someone rolls a barrel of cash into the room, it won't fly. Especially given that beneath the veneer of doing something noble for soccer in Canada, it's actually about subsidizing worried CFL owners who see soccer as a threat to their dwindling returns.

Yes because the money the Hunts are flowing through the Fury are just there to prop up the CFL team. :p

I'm not going to respond to the rest of your stuff only to say disdain via huge pics is annoying. If you are not interested, fine. Gigantic pictures of life 20 years ago are not necessary for this discussion.

[C.Ronaldo]

I get that, but as it stands TFC (and TFC II) function the same way the would if a CPL is formed with a TFC II in it.....only difference would be the league name unless I'm missing something....

Besides, we have no pro/rel here anyways, so teams would be staying in their respective leagues form year to year.....

your thinking tfc2 switches leagues? I dont think thats gonna fly with CPL. I dont see them allowing players to move back and forth like they do b/w MLS and USL. This will be a 3rd team if MLSE gets involved.
plus, that current location YFC2 plays out of is not going to attract anyone

[renda-10]

http://www.torontofc.ca/post/2016/09/22/toronto-fc-and-fc-london-announce-partnership

Maybe this has something to do with the CPL

[TFC Tifoso]

your thinking tfc2 switches leagues? I dont think thats gonna fly with CPL. I dont see them allowing players to move back and forth like they do b/w MLS and USL. This will be a 3rd team if MLSE gets involved.
plus, that current location YFC2 plays out of is not going to attract anyone

no, just using TFC II as an example of how an affiliation to TFC with a CPL team could not be much different than what they already have with TFC II.

[DSouzaZ]

http://www.torontofc.ca/post/2016/09/22/toronto-fc-and-fc-london-announce-partnership

Maybe this has something to do with the CPL

It doesn't. That's just to stop Vancouver from establishing their academy affiliations all over southern ontario like they're trying to do every where else.

[Initial B]

It doesn't. That's just to stop Vancouver from establishing their academy affiliations all over southern ontario like they're trying to do every where else.
Yeah, it's really interesting that while the Whitecaps have exclusive rights over Western Canada and the Impact have exclusive rights in Quebec, TFC only has exclusive rights for the 50-mile radius around Downsview. The rest of Canada is up for grabs.

[Fort York Redcoat]

Yeah, it's really ass-burning that while the Whitecaps have exclusive rights over Western Canada and the Impact have exclusive rights in Quebec, TFC only has exclusive rights for the 50-mile radius around Downsview. The rest of Canada is up for grabs.

fixed.

I get having problems between Quebec up by you, hell even glad we got Windsor from future Detroit rumblings but WTH is Vancouver doing cherry picking over here?

[spe18]

Yeah, it's really interesting that while the Whitecaps have exclusive rights over Western Canada and the Impact have exclusive rights in Quebec, TFC only has exclusive rights for the 50-mile radius around Downsview. The rest of Canada is up for grabs.

I guess it's technically no different then the LA Galaxy having exclusive rights in only the LA area, while Real Salt Lake have exclusive rights in all of Utah and Arizona, or something like that :)

[C.Ronaldo]

is it population based?

[spe18]

is it population based?

I think population is a factor, and quality of the local talent pool. I guess the thinking is the smaller the population is, the less chance they have to find good local talent, so they in turn have to go elsewhere to try to find the talent. So teams with a smaller market get a bigger geographical area to try to make up the gap.

Here is a link with a more detailed explanation on how "territories" are supposed to work.

http://www.brotherlygame.com/2015/9/3/9242267/homegrown-player-rule-major-league-soccer-visual-guide

[greatwhitenorf]

Yes because the money the Hunts are flowing through the Fury are just there to prop up the CFL team. :p

I'm not going to respond to the rest of your stuff only to say disdain via huge pics is annoying. If you are not interested, fine. Gigantic pictures of life 20 years ago are not necessary for this discussion.

Og, dog. Stop being such a school marm.

Carlos Valderamma's hair was larger than life. The dimensions of that pic don't begin to convey what he brought to life on earth in his prime. This proposed Canadian league couldn't begin to match the glory of one lock of his astonishing head of hair. If I could have created a large-format photo essay on him, I would have.

As for "the Hunts" - whatever that means. I know who Jeff Hunt is. I know what OSEG is.

The entire Lansdowne project has been a shitshow in a shell game. That stadium project has created nightmares for the people involved in building it. Lawsuits and liens out the ying-yang.

And Hunt has a junior hockey team that was once the pride of the OHL, regularly drawing full houses to the Civic Arena, that now plays before crowds that barely top 2,000 per game in a crumbling, leaking, partially condemned building that is only cleared to hold half its capacity. One that happens to be structurally attached to the underside of the north grandstand of the RedInks stadium.

With Melnyk now at the helm of the new arena project at LeBreton Flats, there's a huge game of financial chicken being played with the city at Lansdowne and it hardly suggests OSEG are a crowd-pleasing - or contented - bunch.

[showgroundz]

Any updates for the proposed league?

[Fort York Redcoat]

Carlos Valderamma's hair was larger than life. The dimensions of that pic don't begin to convey what he brought to life on earth in his prime. This proposed Canadian league couldn't begin to match the glory of one lock of his astonishing head of hair. If I could have created a large-format photo essay on him, I would have.

This thread concerns the future CPL. I don't get your resistance on the possibility of a Canadian league happening or the offense taken from discussing it.

Now if you wanted to start a thread concerning your view of glory days of NA soccer, feel free. I would find that fascinating. No joke.

[greatwhitenorf]

My views of past efforts to create a Canadian soccer league are entirely relevant to discussions on the efforts to create a new one. Especially when one carefully considers who is behind it, the root motives compelling them to do so, and the nature of the stadia they propose to play in.

If you prefer to stick your head in the sand and ignore the issues that make this league a non-flyer, by all means, indulge yourself(s). But you'd do well to abide by the famous words of Spanish philospher and scuffling midfielder Jorge Agustín Nicolás Ruiz de Santayana y Borrás : Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.

We did this Canadian league shit in the '80s and it couldn't have flopped more horribly. And at that time, we had two very viable NASL franchises in the Blizzard and Whitecaps moving into the CSL. Those teams didn't move to the CSL because they wanted to. No, they had to because NASL was built on an unsustainable economic model. And it didn't have anything close to the proper soccer-specific stadia we now see sprouting up all over North America.

The CSL was a frothing flop from the get-go. With commissioner Dale Barnes - a former pro wrestling promoter, no less - raging at the media to cover his league and to learn to love soccer, it was never lacking noise and fury. It did have the full support of Air Canada to help minimize travel costs. But it never caught on and soon faded into financial ruin and oblivion. Earning the sport a cascade of snickers from a know-it-all mainstream media and setting the pro game back in Canada to such a degree that we are yet to fully recover from. Canada did, after all, qualify for and play in the 1986 World Cup and has yet to return.

This proposed league is about playing mostly on plastic pitches in stadiums where CFL clubs are the prime tenant, with teams owned and operated by CFL owners or conglomerates that operate CFL, NHL and other teams. Nowhere in their corporate DNA have we seen soccer presented as a priority. The game has simply become a situational opportunity to generate subsidies for the CFL owners, who desperately need to broaden their business base to remain competitive and relevant in an ever-changing and ever-more competitive sports marketplace. Most worrisome for the CFL, is that in the three biggest and most essential markets for generating league sponsorship, MLS clubs have continued to grow both their fan bases and corporate support, steadily working away to erode the CFL's future prospects.

Ottawa presents itself as having some soccer experience, but mostly it's a bolted-on accessory by a consortium that are facing some potential financial challenges ahead, needing a city to help underwrite stadium and arena improvements at a time when that city is focused on doing what it can to build a new arena for the Senators in LeBreton flats and getting a new LRT system built and operational. The council already has granted immense leeway for a lucrative commercial and retail development adjacent to Lansdowne against the wishes of neighbouring residents.

The integrated stadium and arena structure is going to need more work soon and could get expensive. It should be no shock if the city is finding it hard to get motivated about throwing more money - unexpectedly - at it when a fabulous new arena project is about to spring up in a schwingy area and will help drive ridership on the LRT system now being built.

The 'Hunts' can hardly cry poor after being treated so well. They can hardly claim the high moral ground either, when the Lansdowne project has created so much distress for - and lawsuits from - the designers and sub-contractors fighting to get paid for the work they did to get the new stand built.

Are these the sort of people we're considering to be fit and proper owners to guide this crucial period of Canadian soccer development? Look at the other owners and consider where soccer has fit in their own sports business agendas. It's never been a priority. Now, their involvement smacks of a mixture - from both themselves and the CSA - of desperation and opportunism.

Stop fooling yourselves that this is going to fly. It's a total turkey.

[jloome]

In an era with far less competition for the sporting consumer's dollar and attention, Thunderin' Dale Barnes couldn't make an all-Canadian soccer league happen. And that was with great help from Air Canada. I doubt this one will fly. With fans or the airline's marketing people.

http://media.gettyimages.com/photos/the-scarf-mtv-sports-director-dale-barnes-is-best-known-for-his-and-picture-id502263957

You need to get kids out to games and committed to supporting teams.

They are highly unlikely to abandon streamed highlights of MessiSuarezNeymar or FIFA video games to watch Dougie Clogger hoof it long for the Caledon Kickerz.

It's a lovely, romantic notion but until someone rolls a barrel of cash into the room, it won't fly. Especially given that beneath the veneer of doing something noble for soccer in Canada, it's actually about subsidizing worried CFL owners who see soccer as a threat to their dwindling returns.

So, so accurate.

Canadians are modern, cosmopolitan people. Fewer even now than then live in small communities, without high-speed internet or cable. If we had brave businessmen who teamed up and financed a REAL pro league, with top players and multi-million dollar budgets, new stadiums etc, I think it would do very well. It would take years of commitment and capital investment, but we already know top-level football does well on TV; it's only the perception of an inferior product that keeps people away.

And Og, the picture is historical context, something that seems sorely lacking every time this is tried in Canada. Multiple people involved in the failed CSL of the 90s are still involved in soccer in this country, or actively trying to be, and have ties to both NASL and USL already. The amount of reptilian opportunism involved in lower-division sports in North America by sociopaths would surprise most people.

[OgtheDim]

Sorry but I don't think the pics are necessary, especially when combined with pejorative descriptors.

I happened to have watched one of Justin Fashanu's first games for Norwich and one of his last for Hamilton Steelers. I know the context.

[greatwhitenorf]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xD0OzF3-hUk

[Fort York Redcoat]

My views of past efforts to create a Canadian soccer league are entirely relevant to discussions on the efforts to create a new one. Especially when one carefully considers who is behind it, the root motives compelling them to do so, and the nature of the stadia they propose to play in.

If you prefer to stick your head in the sand and ignore the issues that make this league a non-flyer, by all means, indulge yourself(s). But you'd do well to abide by the famous words of Spanish philospher and scuffling midfielder Jorge Agustín Nicolás Ruiz de Santayana y Borrás : Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.

We did this Canadian league shit in the '80s and it couldn't have flopped more horribly. And at that time, we had two very viable NASL franchises in the Blizzard and Whitecaps moving into the CSL. Those teams didn't move to the CSL because they wanted to. No, they had to because NASL was built on an unsustainable economic model. And it didn't have anything close to the proper soccer-specific stadia we now see sprouting up all over North America.

The CSL was a frothing flop from the get-go. With commissioner Dale Barnes - a former pro wrestling promoter, no less - raging at the media to cover his league and to learn to love soccer, it was never lacking noise and fury. It did have the full support of Air Canada to help minimize travel costs. But it never caught on and soon faded into financial ruin and oblivion. Earning the sport a cascade of snickers from a know-it-all mainstream media and setting the pro game back in Canada to such a degree that we are yet to fully recover from. Canada did, after all, qualify for and play in the 1986 World Cup and has yet to return.

This proposed league is about playing mostly on plastic pitches in stadiums where CFL clubs are the prime tenant, with teams owned and operated by CFL owners or conglomerates that operate CFL, NHL and other teams. Nowhere in their corporate DNA have we seen soccer presented as a priority. The game has simply become a situational opportunity to generate subsidies for the CFL owners, who desperately need to broaden their business base to remain competitive and relevant in an ever-changing and ever-more competitive sports marketplace. Most worrisome for the CFL, is that in the three biggest and most essential markets for generating league sponsorship, MLS clubs have continued to grow both their fan bases and corporate support, steadily working away to erode the CFL's future prospects.

Are these the sort of people we're considering to be fit and proper owners to guide this crucial period of Canadian soccer development? Look at the other owners and consider where soccer has fit in their own sports business agendas. It's never been a priority. Now, their involvement smacks of a mixture - from both themselves and the CSA - of desperation and opportunism.

Stop fooling yourselves that this is going to fly. It's a total turkey.

I'd think someone that has seen leagues rise out of far less substance would be less inclined to say "never" about a new league happening at a time of higher interest in the game.

Is it simply this particular version of a league you damn? Can you imagine the best alternative way to go forward with the game?

Feel free to use pictures if inclined.

I mean it goes two ways here. If you think we're not going to be talking about these people who can form a league (regardless of its eventual outcome) you're fooling yourself.

[PopePouri]

It's isn't 1985 anymore. This is the age of FIFA games and extended soccer coverage in Canada. It doesn't really compare.

[Initial B]

Ottawa presents itself as having some soccer experience, but mostly it's a bolted-on accessory by a consortium that are facing some potential financial challenges ahead, needing a city to help underwrite stadium and arena improvements at a time when that city is focused on doing what it can to build a new arena for the Senators in LeBreton flats and getting a new LRT system built and operational. The council already has granted immense leeway for a lucrative commercial and retail development adjacent to Lansdowne against the wishes of neighbouring residents.

The integrated stadium and arena structure is going to need more work soon and could get expensive. It should be no shock if the city is finding it hard to get motivated about throwing more money - unexpectedly - at it when a fabulous new arena project is about to spring up in a schwingy area and will help drive ridership on the LRT system now being built.

The 'Hunts' can hardly cry poor after being treated so well. They can hardly claim the high moral ground either, when the Lansdowne project has created so much distress for - and lawsuits from - the designers and sub-contractors fighting to get paid for the work they did to get the new stand built.
Disclosure: I work for the City of Ottawa and I've seen the presentations and discussions on both sides of this argument. The Friends of Lansdowne were opposed to any redevelopment of the site. They wanted the area as a park for the local residents and used every legal block they could to delay and try to kill the project. The council had a vision for Lansdowne again being a place for the residents from all over the City to congregate, just like back in the days of the SuperEx and Rough Riders. The project has had some teething troubles, but overall it's been relatively successful as far as stadium renovations go. I did try to lobby for natural or hybrid grass, but I was told by the city project manager that it was always going to be turf. I guess with the FIFA rules that all tournaments have to played on the same type of surface, they weren't gong to pull the turf out of BC Place or Olympic Stadium. They even replaced the grass with turf in existing Moncton Stadium to comply with WC2015. If the CSA put in a WC2026 bid, you can bet they'll sell it as the first WC solely on Turf.


Are these the sort of people we're considering to be fit and proper owners to guide this crucial period of Canadian soccer development? Look at the other owners and consider where soccer has fit in their own sports business agendas. It's never been a priority. Now, their involvement smacks of a mixture - from both themselves and the CSA - of desperation and opportunism.

Stop fooling yourselves that this is going to fly. It's a total turkey.
So who else would be willing to fund it? The stadium owners get more utilization out of their assets and a generation of Canadian players will have a chance to play professionally within their own country. There are three successful MLS teams that provide a destination to aspire to. TSN needs more summer Canadian content to counter Blue Jays games on Rogers. The CSA needs a domestic league as a prerequisite to bid on a World Cup. I think FIFA would rather give it to Canada for the first time than to the USA for a second time and Mexico for a third time. The other CONCACAF nations simply don't have the financial resources to build the infrastructure necessary. The only infrastructure that would need to be built is maybe a new 25-40K seat stadium in Halifax and an 80K seat Stadium in Toronto for the Final, which would be re-purposed after the tournament for the new NFL team, the Toronto Argonauts. ;)

Ideally, the new league would survive the first 8 years on TV revenues and attendances of 3000-5000. Hopefully after 8 years the average attendance will climb to 7500-10000 at which point the league would start having healthy gate revenue that could offset a poor TV contract.

And if the CPL fails, so what? If nothing gets done in this window, it's gong to be at least another 20 years until Canada tries again. At that point, the CSA would probably let any team that wanted to play in the USL or whatever they call the US Div II to join that league, but WC2026 would have been awarded at that point and it wouldn't be coming back to the region for at least another 28 years.

[greatwhitenorf]

Thank you for that reply, IB. You make a fair bit of sense and if a new league meant Canada could bid for a World Cup, that would be great. Still, who in their right mind would hope to see Canada awarded a World Cup where every game was played on plastic?

But the States didn't have a proper league going on when FIFA awarded it the '94 World Cup. After NASL, the landscape was chaotic for soccer. Teams came and went like shit through a goose and anything being mooted as a proper league was a façade to get the WC hosting rights. Of course, FIFA played along in order to tap into a great new market and the promise of a league was sufficient to get the cup. Canada's not remotely in that situation, though we are in FIFA's good books for being excellent hosts of other finals.

The only way I can see this league being funded long enough and well enough to ensure short-to-mid term survivability is for a media entity to underwrite much of the league's costs in the manner that TSN have done with the CFL. They basically cover the players' salaries on each club.

The biggest problem is which network would want to lavish tens of millions annually on a sub-standard league with no chance of re-couping the costs? Who exactly would flock to their TV screens to watch such a league? Does anyone remotely believe this would attract significant eyeballs when MLS games struggle to draw a decent TV audience? How do they get past the fact that MLS is solidly established and thriving in the three largest markets? If those clubs are steadily eroding the viability of their local CFL rivals, what chance would a lower-tier league have of competing for media coverage, fan interest and sponsorship?

The solution, of course, is for FIFA itself to do something crazy, like some sort of missionary work. Bankroll the entire project using future revenues from a World Cup as security. In earlier regimes, that sort of thing might have been discreetly do-able using the organization's global sponsor brands to front such an effort. In the current climate regarding FIFA's leadership, that seems highly unlikely.

If you work for the city of Ottawa, then you well know about the legal strife that is swirling around the construction of the new stand. It's been financially devastating for some involved and this is hardly covering OSEG or the city itself in glory and should make anyone looking at this group as potential CSL owners feel very wary.

You would also know that there are many issues yet to be resolved about the structure of the arena that integrates into the north stand - condemned suites and press box. There are many dollars yet to be spent there and who knows who's going to have to spend them. The city has already done it's part for both OSEG's interests and the Lansdowne development. I hope you hold their feet to the fire.

I also heartily endorse your notion of migrating the Argonauts brand into a NFL franchise someday. As a child, I grew up in a home that loved the club and it's colours and utterly detested Russ Jackson. Toronto has long outgrown the CFL and this would take the currently futile efforts for the preservation of football in Toronto in the only direction that makes sense.

[Initial B]

Thank you for that reply, IB. You make a fair bit of sense and if a new league meant Canada could bid for a World Cup, that would be great. Still, who in their right mind would hope to see Canada awarded a World Cup where every game was played on plastic?
I think FIFA wants to put to be once and for all that the latest turf is less safe than grass. Take the source with a grain of salt, but FWIW: http://www.fieldturf.eu/en/latest-news/women-world-cup-2015-fewest-injuries-per-match Now, perhaps women don't put as much stress on their joints playing on turf than men do because men are usually throwing more mass around making sudden changes in direction, but assuming that the Confederations Cup matches would highlight any injuries for more data.


But the States didn't have a proper league going on when FIFA awarded it the '94 World Cup. After NASL, the landscape was chaotic for soccer. Teams came and went like shit through a goose and anything being mooted as a proper league was a façade to get the WC hosting rights. Of course, FIFA played along in order to tap into a great new market and the promise of a league was sufficient to get the cup. Canada's not remotely in that situation, though we are in FIFA's good books for being excellent hosts of other finals.
I think FIFA was salivating at making inroads into the worlds largest media market at the time, so I think they were willing to stretch the requirements a bit. The record attendance for the event seems to have borne them out.


The only way I can see this league being funded long enough and well enough to ensure short-to-mid term survivability is for a media entity to underwrite much of the league's costs in the manner that TSN have done with the CFL. They basically cover the players' salaries on each club.
Agree. That's what is keeping NASL from becoming a rival to MLS and what has helped drive up the salary cap (and TAM/GAM) in MLS. A decent TV contract that would allow CPL teams to pay for better quality players would make it the stepping stone to bigger and better things. I'm okay with that so long as the quality of play is high enough. Last year, the Ottawa Fury played a beautiful style of soccer. This year, not so much.


The biggest problem is which network would want to lavish tens of millions annually on a sub-standard league with no chance of re-couping the costs? Who exactly would flock to their TV screens to watch such a league? Does anyone remotely believe this would attract significant eyeballs when MLS games struggle to draw a decent TV audience? How do they get past the fact that MLS is solidly established and thriving in the three largest markets? If those clubs are steadily eroding the viability of their local CFL rivals, what chance would a lower-tier league have of competing for media coverage, fan interest and sponsorship?

The solution, of course, is for FIFA itself to do something crazy, like some sort of missionary work. Bankroll the entire project using future revenues from a World Cup as security. In earlier regimes, that sort of thing might have been discreetly do-able using the organization's global sponsor brands to front such an effort. In the current climate regarding FIFA's leadership, that seems highly unlikely.FIFA doesn't have to do anything except provide the WC TV rights for the CSA to auction off to the highest bidder, with the added stipulation that any domestic network would have to air at least 60 regular season and playoff games a year (and Voyageur Cup games), every year leading up to WC2026. Think about how much the worldwide rights for WC2026 would pay out?


If you work for the city of Ottawa, then you well know about the legal strife that is swirling around the construction of the new stand. It's been financially devastating for some involved and this is hardly covering OSEG or the city itself in glory and should make anyone looking at this group as potential CSL owners feel very wary.

You would also know that there are many issues yet to be resolved about the structure of the arena that integrates into the north stand - condemned suites and press box. There are many dollars yet to be spent there and who knows who's going to have to spend them. The city has already done it's part for both OSEG's interests and the Lansdowne development. I hope you hold their feet to the fire.
Almost all of the City involvement with the Lansdowne project has wound down, but we still hear about the leaky ceilings and faulty air conditioning. The Mayor at the time wanted the private companies to pay for the project since the City was providing the land. The led to a tight squeeze in finances as unanticipated problems in the Civic Centre roof were found. The extra $26 million required to fix it threw everyone's ROI and risk calculations for a loop and was probably the main cause for the strife and litigation that has followed. Now that the work is done, it's up to the contractors and subcontractors to sort out who is going to eat the costs. T

[greatwhitenorf]

Well, there's the Ottawa Fury bolting NASL for USL, where they'll get to play MLS reserve sides TFC II and FC Montreal. It looks like a good chance to assess how strongly the proposed all-Canadian league might fare.

I know Ottawa draws decent crowds. Family there are season ticket holders. No idea what les petites Impact draw. And TFC II? Family and friends?

With Tampa Bay moving to USL and Minn. Utd to MLS, it's not looking good for NASL. Edmonton don't draw well and now look very isolated

[Onyx]

Well, there's the Ottawa Fury bolting NASL for USL, where they'll get to play MLS reserve sides TFC II and FC Montreal. It looks like a good chance to assess how strongly the proposed all-Canadian league might fare.

I know Ottawa draws decent crowds. Family there are season ticket holders. No idea what les petites Impact draw. And TFC II? Family and friends?

With Tampa Bay moving to USL and Minn. Utd to MLS, it's not looking good for NASL. Edmonton don't draw well and now look very isolated

Fath said in July, its getting to the point they are looking at shutting down ... maybe they will look at USL too to cut costs.

[OgtheDim]

Two NASL teams going into USL - one confirmed as the Tampa Bay Rowdies.

[ag futbol]

Would be great if it could work... heavily skeptical.

Smart money bet: juice the USL sides with as many incentives as possible to develop Canadian talent. Have national team improve which should spur interest, revisit Canadian league idea in a decade or so.

[greatwhitenorf]

Two NASL teams going into USL - one confirmed as the Tampa Bay Rowdies.

Well, there be news articles that confirm Ottawa as the other:

http://www.ottawasun.com/2016/10/25/ottawa-fury-fc-confirms-it-will-move-to-new-league

Jings. It says they've lost $2 million this past season. Can't see them making any money playing lower level soccer even against Canadian rivals at that level. This Canadian league thing is a lovely notion but a pipe dream when the finances are tallied up.

As I've always said.

[Oldtimer]

Well, there be news articles that confirm Ottawa as the other:

http://www.ottawasun.com/2016/10/25/ottawa-fury-fc-confirms-it-will-move-to-new-league

Jings. It says they've lost $2 million this past season. Can't see them making any money playing lower level soccer even against Canadian rivals at that level. This Canadian league thing is a lovely notion but a pipe dream when the finances are tallied up.

As I've always said.

I'm looking at the NASL folding eventually. They could have worked with MLS, instead by their hubris (just like the original NASL) they are trying to be too much. Eventually everyone will get tired of losing money, and all of the clubs will either join MLS or USL, or fold.

[Initial B]

Well, there be news articles that confirm Ottawa as the other:

http://www.ottawasun.com/2016/10/25/ottawa-fury-fc-confirms-it-will-move-to-new-league

Jings. It says they've lost $2 million this past season. Can't see them making any money playing lower level soccer even against Canadian rivals at that level. This Canadian league thing is a lovely notion but a pipe dream when the finances are tallied up.

As I've always said.
And I'd agree that CPL would be a pipe dream if it was left to individual owners to sink or swim. That's why I'm sure the CSA is not going to go that route. They'll go with what works - the single-entity MLS model. But even that won't be enough without enough TV revenue to prop up the boat for the first decade. That is how long it took for MLS to stabilize and start growing.

And I'm curious to see how strong the former NASL teams will be playing in what is ostensibly a lower division.

[bones]

A while back I looked into what it takes to start a league in Canada, more specifically Southern Ontario, and the rules set down by FIFA to CSA to OSA were incredibly limiting. I'm pretty sure FIFA will not allow a Canadian Div 1 league to exist while allowing Canadian teams to live in a USSF governed league. The only reason Toronto was granted permission to play in the MLS (USSF gov) was due to the fact that Canada had no Div 1 football. So any new league would have to be at most a Div 2 league. This was the level I was looking at creating years ago and got SLAMMED by OSA for trying because it stepped on the then, up and coming, L1O.

So back to Kurt's article. Why is TFC so interested in "partnering" so badly with this new league? Is it perhaps that they, TFC, are governed by CSA and FIFA and as such, have to do as they're told, aka don't want to get screwed? I think the part about ML$E investing a boatload of cash into this franchise is bang on.... and they don't want to have any of that investment effed with! Making sure this is a Div 2 league has got to be pretty damn important to ML$E from my perspective. Will be interesting to see what really happens with it.

[SoccMan2]

It's the casual fans that fill the stadiums with a small portion of hardcore fans, TFC and the other Canadian teams have been able to get the casuals to come to the stadium, that is why you see decent attendance numbers for the 3 Canadian MLS teams. Now we are going to ask these casuals who are just starting to have an interest in the 3 MLS Canadian teams to come out and support a new Canadian league it ain't happening at least in the 3 MLS Canadian cities, the casuals will not be attending you are looking at USL reserve team MLS attendance numbers. For the rest of Canada the numbers are just not going to be there, see Edmonton and even Ottawa in the NASL and their struggles. The best we can hope for is for more Canadian teams to join the USL and go from there. I'm sorry but just because the way Canadians view sports in Canada we don't think in Canadian league terms we like our North American leagues, even the CFL with all it's history is starting to struggle in the bigger Canadian cities.

[bones]

Does anyone think a Div 2 (or maybe Div 3) large league would work with divisions carved geographically to minimize travel and maximize using Canadian University grounds instead of CFL stadiums? Getting the 3-4k out would have a much better chance when teams are very local. Travelling support would be relatively close for most games. This would be the sort of grass roots building I'd like to see. Of course the governance would be at the provincial level not the CSA level and that would be a serious challenge.

[greatwhitenorf]

No.

Dammit, Bones, you're a doctor, not some cheap circus magician.

[Initial B]

Does anyone think a Div 2 (or maybe Div 3) large league would work with divisions carved geographically to minimize travel and maximize using Canadian University grounds instead of CFL stadiums? Getting the 3-4k out would have a much better chance when teams are very local. Travelling support would be relatively close for most games. This would be the sort of grass roots building I'd like to see. Of course the governance would be at the provincial level not the CSA level and that would be a serious challenge.
That's what I see eventually happening: Buses to in-conference games and flights to out of conference games (might be a problem for Victoria, but I assume a single entity structure would help share the added costs). They'll divide the league into two 4-team conferences, playing in-conference teams 4 times a season and out of conference teams 3 times a season for a 24 game season. When they get to 10 teams, they will play in-conference teams 4 times a season and out of conference teams twice a season for a 26 game season. If the league ends up wildly successful and can afford to expand to 12 teams, then they would play out of conference teams twice a season, in-conference teams 3 times a season with an extra game against their closest rival for a 28 game season.

[greatwhitenorf]

That's what I see eventually happening: Buses to in-conference games and flights to out of conference games (might be a problem for Victoria, but I assume a single entity structure would help share the added costs). They'll divide the league into two 4-team conferences, playing in-conference teams 4 times a season and out of conference teams 3 times a season for a 24 game season. When they get to 10 teams, they will play in-conference teams 4 times a season and out of conference teams twice a season for a 26 game season. If the league ends up wildly successful and can afford to expand to 12 teams, then they would play out of conference teams twice a season, in-conference teams 3 times a season with an extra game against their closest rival for a 28 game season.

Oh yeah?

What schools do you see getting involved? Which ones have adequate facilities? Which of those aren't playing on plastic?

Coz your everyday soccer fan isn't going to want to watch tier 3 soccer played on plastic. In fact, your typical tier 3 soccer player isn't going to be all that jumped up about playing on plastic.

It was awful watching the Lynx playing in the rinky dink set up of a track and field stadium in Etobicoke and that, at least, was on grass. Your modern sports fan is going to need something better than that if they're to become involved enough to fulfill your vision.

[Initial B]

I should have started my post with "This is..." instead of "That's...". :facepalm:

I see them splitting east and west and unbalancing the schedule, but they'll probably still use the big stadiums and cordon off the upper sections. So long as the lower sections are filled and the supporters are loud, it will look and sound good on TV.

[bones]

No.

Dammit, Bones, you're a doctor, not some cheap circus magician.

I've been waiting years for someone to do that!!! BAAAHAHAHAHAHA

[105]

Former TFC exec hired


In a major step toward its projected 2018 debut, soccer's Canadian Premier League has hired its first official employee.

And, in the Canadian footy world, he's a biggie.

Paul Beirne, who was also the first employee of Toronto FC, is the project manager for the new professional league which he says will start play with "six to 10 teams across the country." Most will be there for the projected league kickoff in 2018, he says, although some might wait until 2019 to begin play.

http://www.thespec.com/sports-story/6964861-new-canadian-pro-soccer-league-makes-major-hire/

[greatwhitenorf]

Can the hiring of Michelle Lissel be far behind? She left Global Winnipeg's weather slot not long ago.

Life has been very different for the TFC media corps since she left those many years ago.

[105]

Kurt article with a lot of Manning quotes

http://www.torontosun.com/2017/02/16/tfc-prez-thinks-it-would-be-foolish-for-cpl-to-put-a-team-in-to

[Initial B]

Having/not having a team in Toronto is probably a sticking point in negotiations right now. I think this whole CPL is sustainable/viable premise rides on TV contract dollars, and without a team in Canada's largest Media Market, whatever network they are negotiating with is seeing that as a non-starter. I don't know if Hamilton is close enough. If they do go with a GTA team, maybe they can get away with calling them "Fort York Rangers" or something similar and have them play out of the Scarborough/Eastern York Region area. I my mind, the perfect spot would be out by the Pan-Am sports centre at Morningside and the 401 - there's enough space there to build a 8-10 seat stadium and it's right next to the UofT and Centennial College Scarborough campuses so they could also be used by those schools. It would also probably pull spectators from Pickering/Ajax/Whitby/Oshawa. Then again, as a secondary option, maybe they could place the team out by the UOIT in Oshawa but building a proper 5-8K stadium around Vaso's Field and call themselves the "Durham Bulls" or something. Or maybe by the entertainment area around Thickson and the 401 in Whitby.

[Detroit_TFC]

I found it odd why Manning felt the need to sound off on this right now, but considering what Initial says ^, likely the behind-the-scenes stuff has reached that point.

[ag futbol]

I think they should be careful with this CPL business. Look at how carefully the CFL operates, with the benefit of far more market breadth.

Yes soccer is on the rise and quite popular in the 3 major markets but the drop off after that could not be more stark. People could lose a lot of money here, fragment the market, and hurt the game in general.

Perhaps MLS's sheepishness about helping development of Canadians has caused some resentment? I agree more needs to be done but I don't think this is the way to do it.

[OgtheDim]

MLSE is going to MLSE

And CPL "we are big news" types will CPL

The CPL will have a place in Toronto somewhere outside of the downtown (unless they play at Varsity somehow). MLSE won't like it. Lower league football will lurch on.

[leafsman]

Are they going to try to compete with the MLS? I dont see how they can generate enough revenues to keep up with the MLS. Who will watch these games on TV? As for Toronto, this market only seems to support the best as proven by the argos and junior hockey. I dont get why they wouldnt just try and make this the AHL for the MLS

[Ossington Mental Youth]

They won't try to compete

[Gringo Starr]

I would prefer to have a Toronto club that was independent of TFC and MLSE. If it's TFC3 I would feel like I'm going to watch development league. If it is a new entity I may still be watching a development level but it would somehow feel more meaningful, as if those games are the be all and end all for that club whereas if it's TFC 3 I'm thinking this is just to get some kids some minutes.

i would gladly support 2 toronto teams, think it's a bit sad that TFC can feel threatened by a league where teams will draw under 10000.

[nonc]

I am all for this it has been needed. More foreigners know about unsanctioned CSL than NASL. Put the 'Toronto' team in Mississauga and get the NASL teams. There are reasonable enough markets elsewhere to reach 8-10 teams no problem.

[TFC07]

Toronto/GTA is big enough market to have two pro soccer teams.

MLS isn't top tier league, but yet they manage to do well in Toronto.

All Canadian league will do more good for soccer in this country than MLS will ever do.

This is why TFC/MLSE feel threatened because they know CPL has a chance to do well and eventually replace MLS in this country.

[Redcoe15]

Toronto/GTA is big enough market to have two pro soccer teams.

MLS isn't top tier league, but yet they manage to do well in Toronto.

All Canadian league will do more good for soccer in this country than MLS will ever do.

This is why TFC/MLSE feel threatened because they know CPL has a chance to do well and eventually replace MLS in this country.

Yeah, just like a hypothetical NFL team in Toronto would feel threatened by a CFL team in Toronto.

Uh, no!

[TFC07]

Yeah, just like a hypothetical NFL team in Toronto would feel threatened by a CFL team in Toronto.

Uh, no!

Difference is that MLS isn't view top tier or major league.

MLS isn't world class league filled with best players in the world compare to other major sport leagues in North America.

Plus, watching Canadians play and seeing two Canadian cities playing against each other will be more appealing to your average Canadian than watching a team filled with mostly American players playing against American cities. I wouldn't be surprise if CPL TV ratings do better than MLS in Canada.


This is why TFC/MLSE feel threatened here.

[KurtLarSUN]

Difference is that MLS isn't view top tier or major league.

MLS isn't world class league filled with best players in the world compare to other major sport leagues in North America.

Plus, watching Canadians play and seeing two Canadian cities playing against each other will be more appealing to your average Canadian than watching a team filled with mostly American players playing against American cities. I wouldn't be surprise if CPL TV ratings do better than MLS in Canada.


This is why TFC/MLSE feel threatened here.

Comparing MLS to, say, the NFL is a bit silly.
Because, well, nobody else in the world -- or at least very few nations -- play football, hockey, baseball and basketball.
News flash: People want to watch Giovinco and Altidore. They don't want to watch Kyle Bekker.

[KurtLarSUN]

I would prefer to have a Toronto club that was independent of TFC and MLSE. If it's TFC3 I would feel like I'm going to watch development league. If it is a new entity I may still be watching a development level but it would somehow feel more meaningful, as if those games are the be all and end all for that club whereas if it's TFC 3 I'm thinking this is just to get some kids some minutes.

i would gladly support 2 toronto teams, think it's a bit sad that TFC can feel threatened by a league where teams will draw under 10000.


I don't think TFC feels threatened. I think their ego might be getting bashed a bit seeing as it doesn't appear the CPL wants TFC II in its league.

[OgtheDim]

Plus, watching Canadians play and seeing two Canadian cities playing against each other will be more appealing to your average Canadian than watching a team filled with mostly American players playing against American cities. I wouldn't be surprise if CPL TV ratings do better than MLS in Canada.


.

Yeah.....uh....no.

People in this country already won't watch MLS because they don't think it is good enough soccer for them. You seriously think teams running on maybe 1/3 of the salary cap of MLS teams are going to get more people watching because its Calgary vs Hamilton?

[SoccMan2]

Ok where to start with this , this thing about MLS not being top tier, well it's top tier in Canada and the US, and it's the top tier for going to watch live soccer. Moreover, I hate to say this but I feel that Toronto sports fans find more of an appeal in playing the big American cities rather than having Regina or Edmonton come into town. Playing in a league where you can be champions of North America rather than just Canada has more appeal that's reality. This is one of the reasons I believe the CFL has lost so much appeal in Toronto. We may be part of Canada but we love taking on American cities in our sports. This is a big reason a Canadian only soccer league will not work in Toronto. I'm all for a Canadian league because it allows more playing time for Canadian players but to think that a team in Toronto will eventually overtake TFC in popularity it is not happening anytime soon, you need to understand Toronto and you will understand why it will not work.

[tfc]

This is typical MLSE defending their monopoly in Toronto - no other ownership group is allowed to offer a sporting event that MLSE already offers. That's why they're pushing to have this league as a development league - it will never draw viewers away from MLS.

If I want to go out and start a soccer team why the F*** is MLSE given veto power over my decision!? If I lose money that's my problem. I truly don't understand this mentality that sports are so special they need monopolies. The GTHA has over 6.5m people there and it can't support more than one team per sport?! Pure garbage.

[Gazza_55]

This is typical MLSE defending their monopoly in Toronto - no other ownership group is allowed to offer a sporting event that MLSE already offers. That's why they're pushing to have this league as a development league - it will never draw viewers away from MLS.

If I want to go out and start a soccer team why the F*** is MLSE given veto power over my decision!? If I lose money that's my problem. I truly don't understand this mentality that sports are so special they need monopolies. The GTHA has over 6.5m people there and it can't support more than one team per sport?! Pure garbage.

MLSE doesn't have a monopoly in Toronto. Not sure where you get that from. And you can start or run a pro sports team/league in Toronto without having to ask MLSE's approval.

[OgtheDim]

CPL is going to come to Toronto. TFC would like it to be their team. CPL types don't want that. So said CPL Toronto team won't be at any venue MLSE controls (Downsview, the OSC, BMO or Lamport).

Now, no CPL team locally is going to build a new stadium - they will do well to get 5K a game, lets be honest. Although there will be big TV (and Rollins hints there is big money behind all this), there isn't 10K spectator demand locally for what will be in reality a Div II team. So the dream of building a new 15K stadium just isn't practical here.

Which leads to the question:

what current venue in Toronto can hold a 5K crowd?

Varsity (5K)
Birchmount (2K)
Centennial Park Stadium (2K)
Esther Shiner (3K)

So, Varsity but that has its own issues.

All in all, I suspect that somebody wants to bring a team to Toronto but prefers Lamport (9k) - MLSE has the operations contract for that stadium so are unlikely to want a perceived competitor in that venue. Impasse.

[TFC07]

Yeah.....uh....no.

People in this country already won't watch MLS because they don't think it is good enough soccer for them. You seriously think teams running on maybe 1/3 of the salary cap of MLS teams are going to get more people watching because its Calgary vs Hamilton?

People will watch because their cities will be in the league unlike MLS which only popular in big 3 Canadian cities.

Add that fact there will players that people can relate to and have ties to their community makes it easier to sell the league.

[TFC07]

Ok where to start with this , this thing about MLS not being top tier, well it's top tier in Canada and the US, and it's the top tier for going to watch live soccer. Moreover, I hate to say this but I feel that Toronto sports fans find more of an appeal in playing the big American cities rather than having Regina or Edmonton come into town. Playing in a league where you can be champions of North America rather than just Canada has more appeal that's reality. This is one of the reasons I believe the CFL has lost so much appeal in Toronto. We may be part of Canada but we love taking on American cities in our sports. This is a big reason a Canadian only soccer league will not work in Toronto. I'm all for a Canadian league because it allows more playing time for Canadian players but to think that a team in Toronto will eventually overtake TFC in popularity it is not happening anytime soon, you need to understand Toronto and you will understand why it will not work.

Lol MLS being top tier Canada doesn't mean much those living outside 3 MLS cities.

CPL will be Canada's top tier league because it's actually a Canadian league unlike MLS that is American League with Canadian guests.

[TFC07]

Comparing MLS to, say, the NFL is a bit silly.
Because, well, nobody else in the world -- or at least very few nations -- play football, hockey, baseball and basketball.
News flash: People want to watch Giovinco and Altidore. They don't want to watch Kyle Bekker.

People want to watch Messi and Ronaldo too. lol

Reality is that CPL is going to happen and TFC and MLSE better step up their game to keep their customers happy or else you will see a drop in attendance in the future.

[Red CB Toronto]

CPL is going to come to Toronto. TFC would like it to be their team. CPL types don't want that. So said CPL Toronto team won't be at any venue MLSE controls (Downsview, the OSC, BMO or Lamport).

Now, no CPL team locally is going to build a new stadium - they will do well to get 5K a game, lets be honest. Although there will be big TV (and Rollins hints there is big money behind all this), there isn't 10K spectator demand locally for what will be in reality a Div II team. So the dream of building a new 15K stadium just isn't practical here.

Which leads to the question:

what current venue in Toronto can hold a 5K crowd?

Varsity (5K)
Birchmount (2K)
Centennial Park Stadium (2K)
Esther Shiner (3K)

So, Varsity but that has its own issues.

All in all, I suspect that somebody wants to bring a team to Toronto but prefers Lamport (9k) - MLSE has the operations contract for that stadium so are unlikely to want a perceived competitor in that venue. Impasse.

Pan Am stadium at York would be a good choice. Only issue is the track around it. The CPL would likely go to the city who own Lamport to get a deal done like the Wolf Pack did.

[Shway]

No Stadiums with tracks equal's no Esther Shiner, no Birchmount, no Centennial, no Centennial, no York U, and definitely no Variety. It's Lamport or bust, or demolish and rebuild Esther Shiner, or Birchmount.

Going to far West your competing not only with TFC, but the potential Hamilton and Kitchener teams.

[OgtheDim]

People will watch because their cities will be in the league unlike MLS which only popular in big 3 Canadian cities.

Add that fact there will players that people can relate to and have ties to their community makes it easier to sell the league.

Yeah....I grew up watching the OHL with all that and....still not going to happen.

[KurtLarSUN]

People want to watch Messi and Ronaldo too. lol

Reality is that CPL is going to happen and TFC and MLSE better step up their game to keep their customers happy or else you will see a drop in attendance in the future.

Football fans absolutely want to watch Barcelona and Real Madrid (on TV). But, I'll remind you that 36,000 people at BMO Field and 1.5 million TV viewers for the playoffs were interested in watching TFC (without Messi). There's a threshold of quality that needs to be met for the football to be enjoyable. Will the CPL meet that threshold? I'm just giving you an honest take.

Also, this nonsense I constantly read about MLSE "better step up their game" is mind-numbing. Short of giving away free tickets and providing everyone with free beer, what more do fans want than what was witnessed last season?

And to your last point ....

TFC hit rock bottom in 2010-11. Still averaged 18-20,000 a game. I'd say they're doing pretty well a decade into existence. But, again, that's just my take, as an outside observer in the media.

I do wish the CPL all the best, though. But that doesn't mean I'm not going to be honest.

[jloome]

Football fans absolutely want to watch Barcelona and Real Madrid (on TV). But, I'll remind you that 36,000 people at BMO Field and 1.5 million TV viewers for the playoffs were interested in watching TFC (without Messi). There's a threshold of quality that needs to be met for the football to be enjoyable. Will the CPL meet that threshold? I'm just giving you an honest take.

Also, this nonsense I constantly read about MLSE "better step up their game" is mind-numbing. Short of giving away free tickets and providing everyone with free beer, what more do fans want than what was witnessed last season?

And to your last point ....

TFC hit rock bottom in 2010-11. Still averaged 18-20,000 a game. I'd say they're doing pretty well a decade into existence. But, again, that's just my take, as an outside observer in the media.

I do wish the CPL all the best, though. But that doesn't mean I'm not going to be honest.

Teams in Edmonton and Calgary were routinely drawing 10,000 in 1979-80. So it can be done. But nowadays? Kurt is right, it requires a perception of top-tier product, something that at least competes with what people see on a gazillion channels from overseas.

This COULD work with a Canadian league, as it works in many smaller domestic nations if they spent $5M-10M per roster per season. The demand is there for a QUALITY league. But...

Two big issues intercede continually:

1. The infrastructure to accompany/create that perception of quality does not exist in enough cities. You need medium market stadiums of 10,000-plus, but not half-empty CFL caverns where people are sixty yards from a plastic pitch with lines.

2. Travel is expensive in Canada due to high airline fuel taxes and landing fees, although there have been models with regional divisions that have been discussed to minimize this, via extended road trips etc.

A third is perhaps the biggest overarching issue/factor: The upfront investment and ongoing costs are in the tens of millions. Ask any NASL owner who has lost a few million per season for several seasons. That takes a huge commitment of financial investment and faith.

I think it would be a wise one. The TV market for Championship/Ligue 1/Turkish LEague etc football is pretty fucking massive. Not everyone demands footie from only the top four leagues. We live in a cosmopolitan country; if local branding and club pride can put 35,000 in a stadium for CFL in Edmonton, Calgary and Saskatoon, then well-branded and WELL FUNDED soccer can put 15,000 - 20,000 in medium market stadiums as well.

Believe it or not, at the time BMO was built the feds were considering a national soccer stadium program to create jobs, because they knew the real estate bubble was about to burst across NA and contribute to a recession.

People look at past efforts as proof it won't work, but that's faulty logic; they've always been exactly what people WON'T stand for in a modern, cosmopolitan country: div. 3 or worse leagues full of uninspired play, poor game environments, and amateur club management/marketing. I know some of the players involved out west and I can assure you, the history of small club schuysters scamming investors for an easy money-loser in which to hide their own spending is considerable in Canada.

The ONLY way the CPL will work long-term is if it's in every major city, with feeder clubs in small towns, and proper budgets. I'd say the minimum clubs should be expected to spend would be $3M US per season, and if they want to cap it at something just north of that, fine. But without good, international calibre players, it won't work. This isn't fucking Rainbow Country anymore; people have to stop confusing their own sense of love and security gained from being involved in the amateur and club game in Canada with what is required to make a product work in the larger marketplace.

[Oldtimer]

CFL has tradition to help even though it's a secondary league, a CPL has no tradition and will face a hard climb similar to MLS in the late 90's. I hope the owners have deep pockets.

There are odd things with the relationship between the CFL and the CPL. It will be interesting to see what actually develops.

As far as the CPL being a threat to MLS, it is even less of a threat than the WHA was to the NHL, and the WHA had Gretzky and Messier.

[OgtheDim]

,,,,

As far as the CPL being a threat to MLS, it is even less of a threat than the WHA was to the NHL, and the WHA had Gretzky and Messier.


Actually, Gretzky, Bobby Hull, Gordie Howe and his sons - Messier was cut by Indy before the merger.

[ensco]

Everyone looks at minor league and junior hockey and gets excited. But look at baseball, which is a hell of a lot further along up here than soccer is.

There are hugely successful AAA baseball teams in MSAs that look a lot like CPL cities, eg Louisville, Oklahoma City, Sacramento, Columbus. So you'd think there would be a decent level of success of AAA baseball after 50 years of MLB in Canada. But every attempt (Vancouver, Calgary, Ottawa) has been a dismal failure.

(The one team that is kinda sorta a success is Winnipeg's independent league team, which is way below AAA)

Canada is funny. I don't see how the CPL can work.

[TFC07]

Everyone looks at minor league and junior hockey and gets excited. But look at baseball, which is a hell of a lot further along up here than soccer is.

There are hugely successful AAA baseball teams in MSAs that look a lot like CPL cities, eg Louisville, Oklahoma City, Sacramento, Columbus. So you'd think there would be a decent level of success of AAA baseball after 50 years of MLB in Canada. But every attempt (Vancouver, Calgary, Ottawa) has been a dismal failure.

(The one team that is kinda sorta a success is Winnipeg's independent league team, which is way below AAA)

Canada is funny. I don't see how the CPL can work.

Difference between CPL and other minor leagues is that CSA and investors are promoting CPL as a top tier league not a feeder league for MLS.

Given rumours that these investors have deep pockets and connection to get a TV deal, this will hurt MLS and TFC bottom line because CPL is getting piece of soccer money from sponsors while "stealing" domestic players from MLS.

MLS isn't major league outside three Canadian MLS markets. MLS has shown no interest in adding more Canadian teams and make Canadians domestic for American MLS teams.

[TFC07]

Football fans absolutely want to watch Barcelona and Real Madrid (on TV). But, I'll remind you that 36,000 people at BMO Field and 1.5 million TV viewers for the playoffs were interested in watching TFC (without Messi). There's a threshold of quality that needs to be met for the football to be enjoyable. Will the CPL meet that threshold? I'm just giving you an honest take.

Also, this nonsense I constantly read about MLSE "better step up their game" is mind-numbing. Short of giving away free tickets and providing everyone with free beer, what more do fans want than what was witnessed last season?

And to your last point ....

TFC hit rock bottom in 2010-11. Still averaged 18-20,000 a game. I'd say they're doing pretty well a decade into existence. But, again, that's just my take, as an outside observer in the media.

I do wish the CPL all the best, though. But that doesn't mean I'm not going to be honest.

You should re-read Manning's comments in your article. It is pretty clear that TFC see a Toronto CPL team a threat.


There are questions, however, as to whether an all-Canadian league can survive without a club in its biggest market.

“I told (Mitchell): ‘We’re interested in the league.’ But we’re very protective of Toronto. This is our market.

“We want to be supportive of the CPL, but we don’t want to be competitive. That’s something we don’t want to do.”

A second team in Toronto could be seen as a declaration of war against an MLS side that draws big crowds to BMO Field.

It doesn't get more clear than that. TFC is afraid of Toronto CPL team if Manning is making such comments.

Also thank you of pointing out TV numbers because during regular season, MLS was doing awful (50K viewers per game?).

So there isn't much catching up for CPL (who will be on national TV).

[Redcoe15]

You'd have to be fucking dumb as shit to think the Canadian Soccer Association - an outfit that couldn't find its own ass even if you put its hands on it - could create a premier soccer league that would be a threat to MLS and its three Canadian based teams

[TFC07]

You'd have to be fucking dumb as shit to think the Canadian Soccer Association - an outfit that couldn't find its own ass even if you put its hands on it - could create a premier soccer league that would be a threat to MLS and its three Canadian based teams

Lol CSA is just soccer body, it's investors (like CFL) are behind this. CSA role is to govern and sanction soccer in Canada.

If Canadian Premier League (doesn't have minor league tone to that name) isn't a threat to TFC and MLS then why we got Manning openly saying he doesn't want CPL in Toronto? It's because he see them a threat aka competition.

[Redcoe15]

I rest my case.

[ensco]

Anybody trying to argue that they can build a "top level" Canadian league without teams in the big three markets is dreaming in technocolour.

For it's size, Canada is actually an unusually concentrated population distribution. Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver are about a third of the country.

The outdoor weather in Canada often sucks 8-9 months a year.

This has all been tried in baseball. Deep pockets, big stories, etc
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Baseball_League

[tfcmanu]

FC Toronto owned by MLSE .....FCT will play at York University old stadium and stadium will be refurbished This is my thinking.

[tfcmanu]

East: FC Toronto, Hamilton Steelers, Ottawa Fury, Quebec City FC, Halifax County

- 3 games within division Home and Away 3rd game alternating. West would visit East once alternating every year. Would cut costs for travelling

West: Victoria Highlanders, Calgary Foothills, Edmonton FC, SC Regina, Winnipeg SC

League runs from May to Aug with playoffs in Sept

[A Stick]

Where are you getting this information from tfcmanu?


East: FC Toronto, Hamilton Steelers, Ottawa Fury, Quebec City FC, Halifax County

- 3 games within division Home and Away 3rd game alternating. West would visit East once alternating every year. Would cut costs for travelling

West: Victoria Highlanders, Calgary Foothills, Edmonton FC, SC Regina, Winnipeg SC

League runs from May to Aug with playoffs in Sept

[TFC07]

Anybody trying to argue that they can build a "top level" Canadian league without teams in the big three markets is dreaming in technocolour.

For it's size, Canada is actually an unusually concentrated population distribution. Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver are about a third of the country.

The outdoor weather in Canada often sucks 8-9 months a year.

This has all been tried in baseball. Deep pockets, big stories, etc
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Baseball_League

If you read article, theres going to be a Toronto CPL team which is why Manning is attacking CPL.

Also majority of CPL teams will be playing in CFL stadiums which capacity will be around 20K.

Also there's a "major" European club that is interested in owning a CPL team (Probably they're one who will be owning Toronto CPL team).

You can't compare soccer and baseball because business model and circumstances is different. Triple AAA baseball is baseball equivalent of USL while CPL is actually a league that wants to become top tier professional league in Canada. This is why they rejected TFC setting up their farm team in their league.

[Yohan]

I've yet to see any business plan or anything firm regarding CPL other than rumours. Anyone got any info that's concrete?

[ensco]

If you read article, theres going to be a Toronto CPL team which is why Manning is attacking CPL.

To clarify, what I am saying is: regardless of whatever caused Manning to say something ... it is not credible that anyone would come into this market and go head-to-head with TFC/MLSE. Manning was just stating the obvious.

[tfcmanu]

Where are you getting this information from tfcmanu?

My Thinking

[Initial B]

If you are looking for a CPL timeline, there's a good one right here.

http://www.northernstartingeleven.com/canadian-premier-league-the-story-so-far/

According to the TV market listings, they lump Toronto/Mississauga/Oakville/Hamilton as one market and Vancouver/Victoria as another market. They are planning a team for Victoria and Hamilton is where the Head Office of the League is going to be. Quebec City and Halifax want professional sports teams. I think the league could get by without a team in Montreal and Vancouver, but I think they need one for Toronto so there is a club the fans in the rest of the league can hate - the New York Cosmos of the CPL.

As for minor league, as an Ottawa Fury SSH I can say that during its championship run the team was playing a very attractive style of soccer. The average attendance has gone up every year, starting with 3500 at Carleton University's field to the over 6 K they are getting now at TD Place. I think it's doable if they get the right infrastructure in place. And if they try and it fails, what have they really lost besides money?

[Cashcleaner]

I can't help but think that all these alleged CPL investors are a good eight years too late jumping on the soccer bandwagon. I'm not saying the country has reached peak-soccer capacity with regards to fans, but given how established the big three teams are along with Ottawa and Edmonton, I think it may be a bit of a struggle to find people willing to put money down on season tickets and whatnot for a team somewhere like Winnipeg or Regina where the CFL is also competing with them for local sport interest (and dollars).

[Gazza_55]

You'd have to be fucking dumb as shit to think the Canadian Soccer Association - an outfit that couldn't find its own ass even if you put its hands on it - could create a premier soccer league that would be a threat to MLS and its three Canadian based teams

1000% This.

The fact that there's CFL owners involved, playing in CFL stadiums (see MLS circa 1996), makes it much much worse.

[Initial B]

Look, I'm as scornful of the CSA as anybody, but they've done a lot over the last ten years to improve the organization and pry it away from the Old Boys network and dysfunctionality of the past. I'm willing to give them a chance on this because the only other option is to watch the World Cup from the outside looking in for the rest of my lifetime. At least they're trying and we should support any chance to make the national team pool better.

[Oldtimer]

The fact that there's CFL owners involved, playing in CFL stadiums (see MLS circa 1996), makes it much much worse.

The "wishful thinking" part of me wants a CPL to succeed. Seeing the CFL involved (using it as a means of filling empty stadium dates) does not inspire confidence.

Being realistic, I agree with ensco that the best parallel is baseball, and minor league baseball has not succeeded here. It will take major cash-infusions to work, more than the CFL can give. As far as "competing" with MLS, well we can see how delusional the modern NASL was in thinking like that. MLS (including TFC) will see any attempts at competition as a threat, and will crush it. Not only the new NASL, but you only have to look at the history of the American Professional Soccer League (later swallowed up by USL) to see this.

The only way for the CPL to succeed is to "play nice" and become a feeder league for MLS. Then, like the USL you get MLS money to grow with.

If the CFL thinks that they can somehow eliminate MLS and replace it with a Canadian CFL-dominated league, even with CSA support, they are poorer at decision-making than I thought they were after their ill-advised "expansion" to the U.S.

[TFC Tifoso]

You'd have to be fucking dumb as shit to think the Canadian Soccer Association - an outfit that couldn't find its own ass even if you put its hands on it - could create a premier soccer league that would be a threat to MLS and its three Canadian based teams

*mic drop* /thread.....

Regardless of how the CSL or investors are "presenting" the league, fact is that if the league is missing teams in its 3 largest markets (where MLS teams already exist), its success will be an uphill battle, at best imo.....

to me, Manning is putting on a good face to say that the CPL would be a threat to MLS.....I'd be surprised if he wasn't trying to hold in laughter while saying it.

I'm all for promoting Canadian talent, but I don't know if this is the way to do it.

Personally, I would initially present the league as a step below MLS.....AAA baseball level so to speak......good talent, but not a top level experience.
Reason being is that in general, people aren't stupid...if the league is presented a top tier, but the experience is not that, people will run away......fast.
Set it up as AAA style and give the league something to grow in to...especially if teams are in smaller cities across the country.

Of course the ideal way to bring up Canadian talent is through MLS and making canucks like US players, but that rented mule has been beaten many times.....

[Red CB Toronto]

The "wishful thinking" part of me wants a CPL to succeed. Seeing the CFL involved (using it as a means of filling empty stadium dates) does not inspire confidence.

Being realistic, I agree with ensco that the best parallel is baseball, and minor league baseball has not succeeded here. It will take major cash-infusions to work, more than the CFL can give. As far as "competing" with MLS, well we can see how delusional the modern NASL was in thinking like that. MLS (including TFC) will see any attempts at competition as a threat, and will crush it. Not only the new NASL, but you only have to look at the history of the American Professional Soccer League (later swallowed up by USL) to see this.

The only way for the CPL to succeed is to "play nice" and become a feeder league for MLS. Then, like the USL you get MLS money to grow with.

If the CFL thinks that they can somehow eliminate MLS and replace it with a Canadian CFL-dominated league, even with CSA support, they are poorer at decision-making than I thought they were after their ill-advised "expansion" to the U.S.

Why would the MLS and more importantly the three Canadian teams even view the CPL as competetion and get hostile towards them as they will have a completely different economic scale. In many ways I would compare this situation to Whales where the big clubs in the country play in the English system while there also is a Welsh Premier League. Now one big different between here and there is the georgraphy, which would absolutely raise costs.

[Oldtimer]

Why would the MLS and more importantly the three Canadian teams even view the CPL as competetion and get hostile towards them as they will have a completely different economic scale. In many ways I would compare this situation to Whales where the big clubs in the country play in the English system while there also is a Welsh Premier League. Now one big different between here and there is the georgraphy, which would absolutely raise costs.

Good question, but if you look at how MLS has tried to bankrupt the NASL it becomes obvious.

[OgtheDim]

One difference between NASL and CPL would be:

MLS needs the current CONCACAF head honcho in order to get that World Cup here in 2026. And a viable CPL is necessary for that bid (given FIFA wants multi-country bids it seems). So everybody is going to play nice about the CPL.

[TFC_Allez]

Competition for fans/revenue will not happen. It's a non-issue. Not sure why a CPL team would want to handicap itself by playing in the city in the first place. Where competition might occur is for Canadian youth players. Another team in TFCs backyard, although great for development of youth in the GTA would compete with TFCs academy and could potentially have a negative effect on the quality coming up through the ranks of TFCs developmental system. I respect Manning for what he said. It's literally his job to protect TFCs brand and potential future assets. I don't believe it's his job however to really give a crap about developing youth for Canada, which is basically the expressed purpose of creating the CPL. I don't believe having TFC or a TFC affiliate will really lend any credibility to the league. I believe, it would in fact, undermine it. I don't believe a team in the city of Toronto should happen. Period.

I would love to support the CPL. I think it's a great idea should it ever actually happen...something I'm still somewhat skeptical about based on the limited amount of info that's been forthcoming. This is an opportunity for the CSA to spread itself around the suburbs of the "big 3" major cities. The suburbs of Toronto, ie. Mississauga, Brampton...etc. are coming of age and are looking to develop a distinct identity of their own, completely separate of Toronto. Soccer would be a great way to help that process along in my opinion.

Just my 2 cents.

[105]

Looks like it's a go...


The Canadian Premier Soccer League announced Wednesday morning that its inaugural season will kick off in the spring of 2019.The new coast-to-coast professional league — with one of its founding teams in Hamilton — has also scored a coup in appointing David Clanachan as its first commissioner.


The CPL will open some time in April 2019, likely with 10 teams, and continue play through October while wearing its maple leaf on its sleeve, and just about everywhere else.


Other locales likely to have teams ready for 2019 are: Winnipeg, owned by the Winnipeg Blue Bombers of the CFL; the Ottawa Fury, which will play its second season in the American second tier USL in 2018; Halifax; the lower B.C. mainland and Saskatoon [

But the list of serious candidates also includes Kitchener-Waterloo, Calgary, Edmonton, Regina, Quebec City, Moncton, Mississauga and a second GTA franchise in either Vaughan or York Township



https://www.thespec.com/sports-story/8045599-hamilton-team-in-new-canadian-premier-league-which-starts-in-2019/

[TFC07]

Two GTA based teams? That will be amazing!

Mississauga makes sense, but Vaughan?

[Red CB Toronto]

Two GTA based teams? That will be amazing!

Mississauga makes sense, but Vaughan?

Maybe at York University, stadium did get an upgrade for the Pan Am games.

[TFC07]

Maybe at York University, stadium did get an upgrade for the Pan Am games.

That's true.

Anyway, this news is bad for TFC both on the field and off the field. You got Hamilton, Mississauga and potentially Vaughan in the same market place completing for soccer fans while TFC will end up losing some of their players who will make the jump to CPL (Mogan, Hamilton and few TFC 2 players).

[105]

That's true.

Anyway, this news is bad for TFC both on the field and off the field. You got Hamilton, Mississauga and potentially Vaughan in the same market place completing for soccer fans while TFC will end up losing some of their players who will make the jump to CPL (Mogan, Hamilton and few TFC 2 players).


I read the salary for players is only going to be 40-60K. They will probably allow 1 or 2 players above that level, but I doubt TFCs roster (and future roster) will be impacted much.

In the stands, it could have an effect. But I actually think this helps TFC promote themselves as the "big league" team and Toronto is a big league market.

[BelfastBoy]

Hamilton would be the 2nd GTA team.

[OgtheDim]

Two GTA based teams? That will be amazing!

Mississauga makes sense, but Vaughan?


Well there is the OSC... ;)

[BenRhodes23]

I like the idea of a Canadian league but in my opinion it shouldn't be called the top Canadian league without the best Canadian teams. If there is a really successful CPL team, they might opt to become an MLS expansion team down the road anyway.

[nonc]

No more Canadian teams will join MLS, that's almost as certain as death and taxes.

[TFC07]

I just found out that former TFC player Jim Brennan is trying to bring CPL team to Vaughan/York Region.

[troy1982]

No more Canadian teams will join MLS, that's almost as certain as death and taxes.

2 years ago, no one would have thought MLS would ever expand to Nashville and Cincinnati, but here we are.
I have no doubt that if a team in Calgary, Edmonton and especially Ottawa became a hit like Cincinnati and was owned by one or several billionaires that they could push them-self into the Expansion pool especially when MLS goes beyond 30 teams.

[JamboAl]

I don't think any of Edmonton, Calgary or Ottawa would be a consideration for MLS. There are enough markets in the US that want a team, there's no need to come north. The Fury draw about 5-6000 a game. That number could go a bit higher but nowhere near what would be needed.

[Captain]

I don't think any of Edmonton, Calgary or Ottawa would be a consideration for MLS. There are enough markets in the US that want a team, there's no need to come north. The Fury draw about 5-6000 a game. That number could go a bit higher but nowhere near what would be needed.

The CSA is not likely to grant permission for any other Canadian teams to enter MLS. They want to promote and grow the CPL.

I understand the CSA has to give permission each year for Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver to remain in MLS and that if they pull the plug we're screwed. Is there any truth to this? I think there would be a law suit or two if this happened.

[fergiejr]

With Edmonton out of the NASL, I would think they would be ready to join the CPL next year when it happens.

[troy1982]

The CSA is not likely to grant permission for any other Canadian teams to enter MLS. They want to promote and grow the CPL.

I understand the CSA has to give permission each year for Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver to remain in MLS and that if they pull the plug we're screwed. Is there any truth to this? I think there would be a law suit or two if this happened.

I don't see how the CSA could justify not letting another team in MLS when 3 teams are already there, seems like grounds for a lawsuit to me.
The key is the owner would have to be a billionaire and willing to invest in a new stadium

[flamehawk]

I just found out that former TFC player Jim Brennan is trying to bring CPL team to Vaughan/York Region.

The initial news release sounded like there was already a club and that he was hired in a more formal capacity? But who knows

[flamehawk]

I read the salary for players is only going to be 40-60K. They will probably allow 1 or 2 players above that level, but I doubt TFCs roster (and future roster) will be impacted much.

In the stands, it could have an effect. But I actually think this helps TFC promote themselves as the "big league" team and Toronto is a big league market.

While players like Hamilton and Osorio earn quite a bit more, I think that salary range is still quite competitive for the bottom end/academy graduates/TFC II players. That along with significantly increased playing time and if the league can establish itself as a stepping stone for Europe, I do foresee TFC players getting pouched. Hamilton and Oso for example have already been heavily rumoured to be making the switch. I think this competition will be a good thing as it pushes TFC to rethink its domestic/player development strategy.

[Initial B]

I think this competition will be a good thing as it pushes TFC to rethink its domestic/player development strategy.
Nevermind that, think about the business opportunities to sell/loan young players from the TFC Academy to the CPL teams just in Ontario alone. Whitecaps will have the west and the Impact will Montreal and all points east. If the CPL limits the number of internationals per squad to 10, then at least 1 Canadian will get minutes every game. I was hoping for a limit of 8 internationals, but that would be greedy for the level of play they're looking for.

[OgtheDim]

They talk more about being Canadian then about the quality of the play. I would be very suprised if the CPL does not go for a quote of at least 10 Canadians in the 18.

[Gazza_55]

The CSA is not likely to grant permission for any other Canadian teams to enter MLS. They want to promote and grow the CPL.

I understand the CSA has to give permission each year for Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver to remain in MLS and that if they pull the plug we're screwed. Is there any truth to this? I think there would be a law suit or two if this happened.

The CSA did grant a sanction for TFC to play in MLS and technically they can withdraw permission but the lawsuit and subsequent damages that MLSE/MLSPU would win would cripple the CSA.

[BeachTory]

imho.....the growth of the CPL will be cost containment ( travel esp ) and stadium revenue. That said, it makes no sense to put teams in OHL type markets when stadiums exist in major markets. I dont believe for a second that TFC 2 moving into Lamport is anything but a CPL block. So, Molson stadium in downtown montreal, Swangard in Vcr, Laval Univ. stadium in Quebec, are the targets for sure. Partnership ( explicit or implicit ) with CFL actually helps the CFL folks spread their costs ( think ticketing and stadium operations ) and potentially get stadiums built in places like Halifax.

ultimately, if I am the USSF, i don't want MLS having teams in Canada. It makes no sense to funnel USSF cash cow money ( SUM ) to Canada. there will be a time coming where, IMHO, MLS will have no teams in Canada

[tfcmanu]

York Region Football Club (YRFC) - @ York U..Lets go Jimmy B.:hump:

Or

York Football Club (YFC)

YFC vs TFC..sign me up

[SoccMan2]

imho.....the growth of the CPL will be cost containment ( travel esp ) and stadium revenue. That said, it makes no sense to put teams in OHL type markets when stadiums exist in major markets. I dont believe for a second that TFC 2 moving into Lamport is anything but a CPL block. So, Molson stadium in downtown montreal, Swangard in Vcr, Laval Univ. stadium in Quebec, are the targets for sure. Partnership ( explicit or implicit ) with CFL actually helps the CFL folks spread their costs ( think ticketing and stadium operations ) and potentially get stadiums built in places like Halifax.

ultimately, if I am the USSF, i don't want MLS having teams in Canada. It makes no sense to funnel USSF cash cow money ( SUM ) to Canada. there will be a time coming where, IMHO, MLS will have no teams in Canada

MLS will always have teams in Canada in the big 3 cities, the only way it doesn't if the Canadian cities in the MLS are loosing to much money in the MLS if attendance starts to drastically decline and the Canadian MLS cities try to make a go at it in the smaller budget new Canadian league if it is still around, that's the only way you will see no Canadian cities in the MLS, if you think a team like TFC if forced to play in the new Canadian league one day will still be pulling in crowds of close to 30 000 a game playing in a Canadian only league then I'm sorry to say my friend you are mistaken, TFC playing in a Canadian league would be lucky to draw what the Argos have been drawing at BMO Field the last few years.

[OgtheDim]

...ultimately, if I am the USSF, i don't want MLS having teams in Canada. It makes no sense to funnel USSF cash cow money ( SUM ) to Canada. there will be a time coming where, IMHO, MLS will have no teams in Canada

Current USSF believes that the growth of MLS and the growth of USSF are in tandem. As such, the current preference is for MLS to grow revenues - Canadian teams help that.

A couple of the current candidates for USSF president (the two male ex players) are actively posturing hostility to MLS - blowing up something for the sake of "well it works in Europe" in response to a loss in Trinidad. Thankfully, they are unlikely to win. The likely winner is either a reform from within candidate or a status quo candidate. Thus, I don't suspect USSF is going to want to drop the Canadian teams from MLS.

[flamehawk]

Current USSF believes that the growth of MLS and the growth of USSF are in tandem. As such, the current preference is for MLS to grow revenues - Canadian teams help that.

A couple of the current candidates for USSF president (the two male ex players) are actively posturing hostility to MLS - blowing up something for the sake of "well it works in Europe" in response to a loss in Trinidad. Thankfully, they are unlikely to win. The likely winner is either a reform from within candidate or a status quo candidate. Thus, I don't suspect USSF is going to want to drop the Canadian teams from MLS.

Wynalda actually looks to have a good chance to win or at least is very competitive. He has the majority of the amateur vote and as expected, NASL and affiliated leagues are standing by him.

[Prof]

Should not have multiple GTA teams. I think the only way to be successful is to have teams in secondary markets spread throughout the country. 9 teams in the east and 9 in the west in intimate soccer-specific stadiums of 8,10, or 12 K. A TV deal and national airline sponsorship required. 16 home and away games within the division and a single game against other division teams for a 25 game schedule plus Canadian Championship qualification games. East - St. John's, Halifax, Moncton, Quebec City, Ottawa, Hamilton, Oakville, London, Windsor. West- Thunder Bay, Winnipeg, Regina, Saskatoon, Edmonton, Calgary, Kelowna, Victoria, Surrey.

[BeachTory]

MLS will always have teams in Canada in the big 3 cities, the only way it doesn't if the Canadian cities in the MLS are loosing to much money in the MLS if attendance starts to drastically decline and the Canadian MLS cities try to make a go at it in the smaller budget new Canadian league if it is still around, that's the only way you will see no Canadian cities in the MLS, if you think a team like TFC if forced to play in the new Canadian league one day will still be pulling in crowds of close to 30 000 a game playing in a Canadian only league then I'm sorry to say my friend you are mistaken, TFC playing in a Canadian league would be lucky to draw what the Argos have been drawing at BMO Field the last few years.


MLS teams are set up to lose money. The reason SUM and MLS are set up separately is to allow SUM and the USSF to split all TV revenue generated in the US by soccer. The USSF does this to subsidize the development of the pro league (MLS) on a measured and careful growth while maintaining cash for USSF efforts. TFC for $10M was a long shot at the time - now, with SUM valued at well north of $1B, it makes no sense for USSF to continue to send TV revenue from USMNT, Mexican NT games and MLS contracts to Canadian SUM partners. Understand that when a new operator/franchise buys in ( example Nashville ), they are buying both a part of SUM and part of MLS.

That USSF would want to stop sending $ to Canada is self evident. That the decision would hurt teams like TFC would be a good thing in the minds of USSF trying to protect their domestic programs. So i agree with you that TFC in a Canadian only league would be bad for TFC competitively and revenue wise. The status quo remains as long as the 3 Canadian teams, on a fully net basis contribute positive cash to MLS/USSF. And if THAT is true, why would the CSA continue to support a cash drain out of Canada?

so, if the Canadian teams don't generate an above average cash contribution to MLS/SUM, the USSF will push them out. And if the reverse true, the CSA will pull them out.

just my humble opinion.

[Gazza_55]

MLS teams are set up to lose money. The reason SUM and MLS are set up separately is to allow SUM and the USSF to split all TV revenue generated in the US by soccer. The USSF does this to subsidize the development of the pro league (MLS) on a measured and careful growth while maintaining cash for USSF efforts. TFC for $10M was a long shot at the time - now, with SUM valued at well north of $1B, it makes no sense for USSF to continue to send TV revenue from USMNT, Mexican NT games and MLS contracts to Canadian SUM partners. Understand that when a new operator/franchise buys in ( example Nashville ), they are buying both a part of SUM and part of MLS.

That USSF would want to stop sending $ to Canada is self evident. That the decision would hurt teams like TFC would be a good thing in the minds of USSF trying to protect their domestic programs. So i agree with you that TFC in a Canadian only league would be bad for TFC competitively and revenue wise. The status quo remains as long as the 3 Canadian teams, on a fully net basis contribute positive cash to MLS/USSF. And if THAT is true, why would the CSA continue to support a cash drain out of Canada?

so, if the Canadian teams don't generate an above average cash contribution to MLS/SUM, the USSF will push them out. And if the reverse true, the CSA will pull them out.

just my humble opinion.

The CSA or USSF can not kick TFC or any other Cdn team out of MLS. The owners of the league are exactly that - they own the league. Forcing MLSE/TFC out dissolves the league. They can be bought out but the amount of money that would take is in the billion dollar range and that's just for TFC.

[BeachTory]

The CSA or USSF can not kick TFC or any other Cdn team out of MLS. The owners of the league are exactly that - they own the league. Forcing MLSE/TFC out dissolves the league. They can be bought out but the amount of money that would take is in the billion dollar range and that's just for TFC.

Of course they can. CSA merely revokes the exemption for a Canadian team playing in a US league. This already happened a couple years ago with US-PDL teams in Canada.

The money exchange you refer to is simply the compensation aspect of the regulatory body decision. A ballpark price for an unwilling seller ( MLSE ) being compelled to relinquish their piece of MLS and their piece of SUM would have to more than the reputed $150M US Nashville just paid to buy those same assets but TFC's MLS share, their player contracts and their SUM ownership couldn't be much more since the buyer isnt going to get the stadium lease, the training centre and the local goodwill ( cuz the new owner would be relocating into the US). Since this would be a 3 team deal, it gets expensive ( if league buys back the share assets ) or tricky ( quick, find 3 new ownership groups with stadiums ready to move ).

I would imagine MLSE would prefer to relocate their owner/operator rights into a new US location and continue with MLS with the simpler USSF only sanctioning.

All this is very hypothetical of course. Very. But - the CSA want the CPL to exist and succeed. MLS can either try to block/stunt the CPL or not. Scooping up Lamport Stadium to ensure CPL can't put a team in there is not the first move an indifferent player.

[OgtheDim]

Until Rogers and Bell sell off MLSE, the CSA is doing nothing.

[TFC07]

Believe it or not, but I could see Vancouver and Montreal leaving MLS since they're small market teams who can't spend like TFC to keep up with the pace.

[Yohan]

Believe it or not, but I could see Vancouver and Montreal leaving MLS since they're small market teams who can't spend like TFC to keep up with the pace.
except MLS is designed that you don't have to spend a fuckton of money to keep up.

And Saputo family is worth 10 billion. Vancouver ownership has a net worth of about 2 billion. Yes, all of them have other business concerns, but it's not like they can't invest in their MLS teams if they want to.

[Initial B]

But I think Joey likes to be big cheese. He isn't that in MLS, but he could be *the* big cheese in CPL.

[TFC07]

except MLS is designed that you don't have to spend a fuckton of money to keep up.

And Saputo family is worth 10 billion. Vancouver ownership has a net worth of about 2 billion. Yes, all of them have other business concerns, but it's not like they can't invest in their MLS teams if they want to.

Not really since you're starting to see divide between spenders and not so big spending teams.

Vancouver and Montreal might have rich owners, but that doesn't mean they're willing to spend money.

We all know Montreal is having problems selling tickets while Vancouver is a bad season away losing their SSH base.

Given high demand for MLS teams in the states, I wouldn't be surprised if one of CDN MLS clubs think of selling their team and join CPL like in a decade.

[TFC07]

But I think Joey likes to be big cheese. He isn't that in MLS, but he could be *the* big cheese in CPL.

That is also another reason why CDN owners would want to join CPL. They will have more weight to push the league and CSA around.

Plus not worrying about US dollar is key for these owners as well.

[molenshtain]

Not really since you're starting to see divide between spenders and not so big spending teams.

Vancouver and Montreal might have rich owners, but that doesn't mean they're willing to spend money.

We all know Montreal is having problems selling tickets while Vancouver is a bad season away losing their SSH base.

Given high demand for MLS teams in the states, I wouldn't be surprised if one of CDN MLS clubs think of selling their team and join CPL like in a decade.

in 10-15 years MLS will have *bridged the gap* between MLS and the NHL in terms of level of interest south of the border. It'll be closer to looking and acting like the behemoths other NA sports leagues act like. It will be highly lucrative for those, the Vancouvers and the Impacts, who got in early. There's absolutely no way they walk away from that investment to play in a new league with no secure future.


*not that it will be the best league in the world, but it'll certainly be on its way there. If the progress we've seen over the last 20 years is linear it means very, very good things for where this league will be at talent wise over the next 10-15-20 years. You'll see the cheaper owners coughing up more and more money as the league grows and revenue increases.

[Oldtimer]

in 10-15 years MLS will have *bridged the gap* between MLS and the NHL in terms of level of interest south of the border. It'll be closer to looking and acting like the behemoths other NA sports leagues act like. It will be highly lucrative for those, the Vancouvers and the Impacts, who got in early. There's absolutely no way they walk away from that investment to play in a new league with no secure future.


*not that it will be the best league in the world, but it'll certainly be on its way there. If the progress we've seen over the last 20 years is linear it means very, very good things for where this league will be at talent wise over the next 10-15-20 years. You'll see the cheaper owners coughing up more and more money as the league grows and revenue increases.

As far as the US goes, soccer is already watched by nearly twice as many people as their preferred sport than hockey. The problem is that viewership is split between EPL, other Euro leagues, the Mexican league, and MLS.

[OgtheDim]

As far as the US goes, soccer is already watched by nearly twice as many people as their preferred sport than hockey. The problem is that viewership is split between EPL, other Euro leagues, the Mexican league, and MLS.

Which is why the CPL has potential locally. If it can even come close to the local loyalty that is found in Scandanavian countries, the CPL will be fine.


As for MLS in Canada:

The 3 MLS teams would likely stay for the economies driven by US soccer.

TV viewership in Canada involving Canadian MLS teams is higher then TV viewership for US based teams in the US. (see the MLS Cup final - 1.3 million up here - 800K in the US) MLS knows Canada is a HUGE potential lucrative market that will drive local teams that, given the right ownership, can spend.

MLS also recognizes that unlike other sports, a Canadian soccer team has serious potential to garner local support across the border. IF TFC were to go on a 5 year run of championships & success, the team would find followers in the US.

[Murphy Malone is making believers down there one tweet at a time :) ]

All power to the CPL - may it drive soccer interest in local environments and make this game the top sport in this country eventually. BUT, the North American league is in Canada to stay.