Idea: Canadian Conference (instead of CPL) within a Four Conference MLS

[flamehawk]

I recognize this is highly unlikely, but what do people think about the possibility of a Canadian conference in MLS (instead of an independent Canadian league that is currently proposed), with MLS reorganized into four conferences. This way the three Canadian MLS clubs are involved with the teams that would have been a part of the Canadian league and the 'Canadian league' can count participation from all three major cities. I know it's very unlikely that NASL clubs would join MLS and unlikely that the attendances/markets of smaller CFL cities like Hamilton or Ottawa are 'MLS-caliber' or can have ownership groups with the financial capacity to meet MLS requirements, but thought this might be an interesting thought experiment. Would also be nice to be able to support Toronto FC within the context of a semi-independent Canadian league instead of having to possibly support two separate teams or pick one (in the case of a GTA team in CPL).

So, four conferences, with top two teams going to playoffs?

Canadian
*Toronto FC
*Vancouver
*Montreal
*Edmonton
*Calgary
*Ottawa
*Hamilton


Western
*San Jose
*LA Galaxy
*LA FC
*Seattle
*Portland
*RSL
*Sacremento?


Central
*Houston
*Dallas
*Columbus
*Chicago
*Colorado
*KC
*Minnesota


Eastern
*New England
*NY Red Bulls
*NYCFC
*Philadelphia
*DC United
*Orlando
*Atlanta

[Gazza_55]

I recognize this is highly unlikely, but what do people think about the possibility of a Canadian conference in MLS (instead of an independent Canadian league that is currently proposed), with MLS reorganized into four conferences. This way the three Canadian MLS clubs are involved with the teams that would have been a part of the Canadian league and the 'Canadian league' can count participation from all three major cities. I know it's very unlikely that NASL clubs would join MLS and unlikely that the attendances/markets of smaller CFL cities like Hamilton or Ottawa are 'MLS-caliber' or can have ownership groups with the financial capacity to meet MLS requirements, but thought this might be an interesting thought experiment. Would also be nice to be able to support Toronto FC within the context of a semi-independent Canadian league instead of having to possibly support two separate teams or pick one (in the case of a GTA team in CPL).

So, four conferences, with top two teams going to playoffs?

Canadian
*Toronto FC
*Vancouver
*Montreal
*Edmonton
*Calgary
*Ottawa
*Hamilton


Western
*San Jose
*LA Galaxy
*LA FC
*Seattle
*Portland
*RSL
*Sacremento?


Central
*Houston
*Dallas
*Columbus
*Chicago
*Colorado
*KC
*Minnesota


Eastern
*New England
*NY Red Bulls
*NYCFC
*Philadelphia
*DC United
*Orlando
*Atlanta

Wouldn't that add about 50,000 km extra in travel for Toronto, Vancouver and Montreal a year?

And you would have to find people in Ottawa, Hamilton and Edmonton to cough up $200m to $350m USD expansion fee.

[flamehawk]

Wouldn't that add about 50,000 km extra in travel for Toronto, Vancouver and Montreal a year?

And you would have to find people in Ottawa, Hamilton and Edmonton to cough up $200m to $350m USD expansion fee.

They would have to do that for the Canadian Premier League teams too in terms of travel.

But ya, the costs won't work at all. I see the only vague possibility of this is an entirely separate league with different rules around cap with a 'friendly' tournament at the end of the season pitting american clubs against Canadian clubs.

[Fort York Redcoat]

I'm sure you've seen the argument against this. It's not new.

MLS doesn't want to expand here for tv reasons.

I'm not for this anyway because of the challenges seen by smaller cities trying to keep a franchise healthy. Those CFL and NHL cities are tapped out attendance wise and MLS would need a promise of sellouts wherever they set up to balance the tv numbers.

And just imagine trying to convert joe sporto to MLS in those smaller city's greater areas. Not impossible but a much bigger challenge.


Also - On the CPL front - I believe they would play a lopsided schedule to reduce cost. At least they should.

[Onyx]

never will happen. this may be FC Edmonton's last season btw. Faths tired of cutting cheques

as well, CPL will never play a game.

[ensco]

The league has a bit of a problem in that the Whitecaps are key rivals for all of Toronto, Montreal, Seattle and Portland, yet that makes no sense as a division.

[Yohan]

The league has a bit of a problem in that the Whitecaps are key rivals for all of Toronto, Montreal, Seattle and Portland, yet that makes no sense as a division.
not really a key rival... more like a secondary thing.

Seattle and Portland don't consider Vancouver their primary rival. Toronto and Montreal don't consider Vancouver their primary rival. Vancouver is like the 3rd wheel

[ensco]

^Seattle vs Vancouver is a secondary rivalry?

Challenge.

Portland-Seattle is bigger, but I'd bet Vancouver is the second biggest game for Seattle, ahead of the Galaxy or SJ. It goes right back to early NASL.

As for the Canadian teams, I don't agree with that either. The TFC-Impact rivalry is obviously the natural one, but the CCL has made us all very aware of each other.

[Yohan]

^Seattle vs Vancouver is a secondary rivalry?

Challenge.

Portland-Seattle is bigger, but I'd bet Vancouver is the second biggest game for Seattle, ahead of the Galaxy or SJ. It goes right back to early NASL.

As for the Canadian teams, I don't agree with that either. The TFC-Impact rivalry is obviously the natural one, but the CCL has made us all very aware of each other.
if you ask a Sounder supporter who they consider their number one rival is, you will get Portland. and vice versa. If you ask an IMFC supporter who their number one rival is, it's TFC.

It doesn't mean they don't consider Caps a rival. It's just smaller in scale in compared to their number 1 rivals.

[OgtheDim]

This is a solution in need of a problem.

[Abou Sky]

Ya, not on board.

Although it's great to see ideas, you need to have bad ideas to come up with good ones.

[__wowza]

i'm actually super in love with this idea, or maybe just the "division" side of it, viability aside.
you would have to work out a few scheduling kinks as others have mentioned the distance with vancouver.

realistically the only teams you'd have in the "eastern canadian" tier would be:

Canadian
*Toronto FC
*Vancouver
*Montreal
*Ottawa
*Hamilton

then you'd have to pop in a few others, like columbus / NYRB / NYCFC.

[Cashcleaner]

^Seattle vs Vancouver is a secondary rivalry?

Challenge.

Portland-Seattle is bigger, but I'd bet Vancouver is the second biggest game for Seattle, ahead of the Galaxy or SJ. It goes right back to early NASL.

As for the Canadian teams, I don't agree with that either. The TFC-Impact rivalry is obviously the natural one, but the CCL has made us all very aware of each other.

I'm thinking the same as well, and least with your second point. Each Canadian team wants to be the best in the country and while the Canadian Championship is an avenue to determine top dog, we all want to prove it in the regular season as well. I agree TFC V IMFC is the bigger game, but people shouldn't count out the elevated stakes when the Impact or us play Vancouver.

[Abou Sky]

i'm actually super in love with this idea, or maybe just the "division" side of it, viability aside.
you would have to work out a few scheduling kinks as others have mentioned the distance with vancouver.

realistically the only teams you'd have in the "eastern canadian" tier would be:

Canadian
*Toronto FC
*Vancouver
*Montreal
*Ottawa
*Hamilton

then you'd have to pop in a few others, like columbus / NYRB / NYCFC.

OK, if we had transporters like in Star Trek I would be on board too. :p

[__wowza]

OK, if we had transporters like in Star Trek I would be on board too. :p

well realistically, the NHL divisions (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Hockey_League#Teams) are matched up the same way.
if you have 4 divisions with 24 teams you could make divisions with 6 teams a piece.

[Onyx]

I view Hamilton in NASL as more likely than CPL ever getting of the ground. Perhaps the NASL will move edmonton's franchise there.

http://www.rednationonline.ca/Articles2016/TimHortonsFieldwantstoseehowinterested.aspx

[jabbronies]

I hate the Canadian conference in the MLS idea for too many reason. Time zone differences, travel times and costs..and IMO segregating Canadian teams away from US teams does no good for Canadian team exposure. That conference just becomes noise in the greater scheme of MLS interest.

Keep MLS conferences regional. makes for better rivalries. Road trips and rivalries have helped generate interest in MLS.
Toronto vs. Vancouver is not a rivalry. It's just a game against another Canadian city, that's the only reason some people even consider it a rivalry, but there are no real feelings of hatred there. It doesn't generate fierce emotional interest like Toronto/ Montreal does now - or how Toronto NYRB did in year 1 and 2 when there was that tunnel brawl. or how Vancouver/Seattle/Portland games generate those same emotions.


If we are talking about how to structure a Canadian Professional Soccer league (CPSL):

- First and foremost, keep TFC out of it. Maybe have TFC2 in there or Scarborough United..or whatever, but it will always be a second class citizen league - just like the CFL is compared to the NFL.

- Next would be to focus on Regional leagues. Winners of those leagues play in some sort of CPSL final tournament.
Road trips and rivalries will help generate interest in a CPSL throughout the season, but no significant number of people will fly from Hamilton to Winnipeg for a mid-season game. BUT, from Hamilton to let's say KW - that could be a thing to do and will generate rivalries and interest locally and then hopefully nationally.

[Redcoe15]

Not.

Gonna.

Happen!

[Macksam]

I'm sure you've seen the argument against this. It's not new.

MLS doesn't want to expand here for tv reasons.

I'm not for this anyway because of the challenges seen by smaller cities trying to keep a franchise healthy. Those CFL and NHL cities are tapped out attendance wise and MLS would need a promise of sellouts wherever they set up to balance the tv numbers.

And just imagine trying to convert joe sporto to MLS in those smaller city's greater areas. Not impossible but a much bigger challenge.


Also - On the CPL front - I believe they would play a lopsided schedule to reduce cost. At least they should.

While I don't think a Canadian division is going to happen, I could see MLS eventually expanding into the aforementioned cities minus Hamilton. I don't think those cities are tapped out attendance wise either considering the NHL season doesn't overlap too much and the CFL plays very little home games. That, and the fact those places do indeed have some demographics that like soccer, it doesn't make an MLS team sound unfeasible.

When it comes to MLS itself, the league will prioritize American teams no doubt. However, this isn't a league that will stop at 32 teams either. They'll stop expanding when they sign a huge TV contract in the NFL/NBA range, essentially a number where the owners won't want to expand anymore and cut the pie up further. I think MLS' sweet spot will be 32-4 US based teams and 6 Canadian teams, which should be enough to eventually land them a US 1 to 1.5 billion dollar per annum TV contract and a Canadian 250 to 400 million per annum TV deal.

Obviously with the economy down in Alberta, this talk of Canadian expansion is a no go right now.

[Onyx]

news coming out of ottawa today
- fury won't be back in NASL next season via @furyfanatic
- annual losses of $2m+

shutting down
-or-
maybe dropping to USL (can't see MLS reserve teams drawing in ottawa)

[OgtheDim]

FWIW

https://twitter.com/4totera/status/773946717536448512

[Onyx]

FWIW

https://twitter.com/4totera/status/773946717536448512


i laugh at these CPL tweets, based on all the money the Fath's have lost and now ottawa is losing.

Only way this league gets off the ground is if the CSA is paying for everything down to the practice balls ... because there will be no TV contract, no big sponsors, and only 1000-2000 per game attendance. Thats the way div 5/conference level soccer is in UK, germany, iran, or even china, won't be different in Canada a not futbol country.

[OgtheDim]

....
Only way this league gets off the ground is if the CSA is paying for everything down to the practice balls ... because there will be no TV contract, no big sponsors, and only 1000-2000 per game attendance. Thats the way div 5/conference level soccer is in UK, germany, iran, or even china, won't be different in Canada a not futbol country.

A couple of things, and I'm not a CPL booster.

TSN has been sniffing & CFL owners have been sniffing, including a recent shout out for interest by Hamilton.


As for attendance, there is no Div 5 in China so I have no idea what you are talking about but I can tell you as a lazy follower of the mighty Barrow AFC that National League attendances are 1-5K - quite the broad range.

I can tell you that Div 2 level in most European countries attendance is less than 1K so where you get the idea that the State league teams in Germany and the Provincial leauges in Iran are going to get 1K I do not know.

[Initial B]

FWIW

https://twitter.com/4totera/status/773946717536448512

The fact that the CSA is planning on announcing this now indicates that they realize they can't put off the news any longer or they risk losing FCE and the Fury. The lack of information is leading to uncertainty and instability. I also don't see this working unless they've already worked out a TV deal with TSN that ties in CPL game broadcasts to World Cup Canadian TV rights. They'll also need sponsorship from one of the Canadian air carriers to mitigate travel expenses. I'm sure there are some CFL teams that would like to add additional utilization of their stadium assets. $10 million a year in revenue would go long way towards making a viable Canadian league. It will need some sort of subsidy to help them over the first couple of years of poor attendance.

[Detroit_TFC]

The fact that the CSA is planning on announcing this now indicates that they realize they can't put off the news any longer or they risk losing FCE and the Fury. The lack of information is leading to uncertainty and instability. I also don't see this working unless they've already worked out a TV deal with TSN that ties in CPL game broadcasts to World Cup Canadian TV rights. They'll also need sponsorship from one of the Canadian air carriers to mitigate travel expenses. I'm sure there are some CFL teams that would like to add additional utilization of their stadium assets. $10 million a year in revenue would go long way towards making a viable Canadian league. It will need some sort of subsidy to help them over the first couple of years of poor attendance.

More than a couple. MLS nearly croaked before the SUM gravy train started in 2002.

[CanadaLFC]

This would be bad for people who like to travel away.

[Oldtimer]

The Ottawa market is not worth the US $200 million expansion fee. Edmonton, Calgary, Hamilton even less so. The chance to buy in at $30 million has passed. Smart guys like Saputo bought when the price was low.

The 3 Canadian clubs is what we're going to have, and that is not a division.

[Redcoe15]

The Ottawa market is not worth the US $200 million expansion fee. Edmonton, Calgary, Hamilton even less so. The chance to buy in at $30 million has passed. Smart guys like Saputo bought when the price was low.

The 3 Canadian clubs is what we're going to have, and that is not a division.

^^THIS!!!