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View Full Version : Would you be in favour of a move to the Canadian Premier League?



Lennon
06-09-2016, 10:42 AM
Don't know if this would even be possible, or if it's something MLSE would even consider, but how do you guys feel? Would you be in favor of TFC leaving MLS to play in the CPL?

Couple of pros and cons off the top of my head.

Pros:
- We'd be playing in our domestic league against other Canadian teams and players (the way it should be). More interest for the casual fan going up against the likes of Ottawa and Hamilton as opposed to Chicago & Philadelphia.
- Helping grow the game in this country. Having a former MLS team in the league would go a long way to legitimizing it as a serious D1 league.

Cons:
- Lower quality soccer, at least in the beginning. From what I hear the CPL would be somewhere in between the NASL and MLS. With a lower salary cap and no DP's (?), it would be harder to compete with the rest of CONCACAF.
- Uncertain future. We can't say for sure that the CPL will be a success. With MLS expansion fees rising and the cap going up every year, it's safe to say that MLS won't be folding any time soon.

If this can't happen right away, maybe it's something to consider for the future? There are many cities out there with MLS aspirations and there might not be enough room for all of them. Maybe MLSE can sell their spot in the league for a nice profit once MLS gets to 30 teams or so.

Yohan
06-09-2016, 10:47 AM
It will never happen. Might end up being a 2nd Toronto team, but TFC won't move to CPL. The money doesn't make sense.

Not to mention the quality of the league will suck big balls, at least in the beginning if insisting on high Canadian roster quota.

Jpexxx
06-09-2016, 10:50 AM
I'd certainly be open to it, but way down the road.
I'm really hoping the CPL gets off the ground and manages to survive, in part due to the fact that I find it pretty embarrassing we are one of the only countries who participate in FIFA that don't have our own league.

If the CPL manages to get off the ground, and after a decade or so is doing well financially/ attendance wise/ attention wise/ competition wise, I wouldn't have a problem if TFC switched over.

But until it makes sense to do so, so prob staying put in MLS... We need at least 1 MLS Cup before we leave anyways...

mistercorporate
06-09-2016, 10:55 AM
I would prefer having TFC2 moving to the CPL. TFC is better off sticking with MLS.

OgtheDim
06-09-2016, 10:59 AM
CPL in theory is good for soccer in Canada.

BUT

I have serious doubts about how CPL is being created and see significant growing pains with the inorganic top down "build it and they will come" approach. I think ownership has no idea what they are getting into as far as supporters are concerned - football supporters/attenders are neither CFL demographics nor soccer moms. The organic growth of supporter culture in those cities will take 20+ years. Toronto, Vancouver and Montreal all had something to grow from. There is no supporter culture in most of the cities being contemplated. Its going to take time and buckets of money to get anywhere close to a profit.

More importantly, I'm not interested in supporting that level of quality when there is already a higher quality here.

Godspeed for them across the rest of the country.

ManUtd4ever
06-09-2016, 11:04 AM
Don't know if this would even be possible, or if it's something MLSE would even consider, but how do you guys feel? Would you be in favor of TFC leaving MLS to play in the CPL?

Couple of pros and cons off the top of my head.

Pros:
- We'd be playing in our domestic league against other Canadian teams and players (the way it should be). More interest for the casual fan going up against the likes of Ottawa and Hamilton as opposed to Chicago & Philadelphia.
- Helping grow the game in this country. Having a former MLS team in the league would go a long way to legitimizing it as a serious D1 league.

Cons:
- Lower quality soccer, at least in the beginning. From what I hear the CPL would be somewhere in between the NASL and MLS. With a lower salary cap and no DP's (?), it would be harder to compete with the rest of CONCACAF.
- Uncertain future. We can't say for sure that the CPL will be a success. With MLS expansion fees rising and the cap going up every year, it's safe to say that MLS won't be folding any time soon.

If this can't happen right away, maybe it's something to consider for the future? There are many cities out there with MLS aspirations and there might not be enough room for all of them. Maybe MLSE can sell their spot in the league for a nice profit once MLS gets to 30 teams or so.

On the contrary, the Toronto market has demonstrated that it will only support the highest level professional sports leagues, which are all American based. Look at how the CFL is supported in this city.

If the CPL becomes a reality, it would be worth considering moving the current USL franchises across Canada, but that's where it ends in my opinion.

jabbronies
06-09-2016, 11:05 AM
Maybe revisit the idea 60-80 years from now.

The Association that will probably run this thing would be the CSA or some iteration of it.
Overall, Canadian soccer is still a joke IMO and the CSA is a large reason for that.

yes there are miniscule pockets of good things happening in Canada - but it'll probably take 60-80 years for those pockets to become big enough to influence the larger national system and get fully up to speed and running.

I know how it's done in other parts of the world, but in North America, the top professional sports leagues include the USA.
IMO - A Canadian Soccer league would always be what the CFL is to the NFL. Small potatoes.

zeelaw
06-09-2016, 11:07 AM
A Canadian Soccer league would always be what the CFL is to the NFL. Small potatoes.
Which is absolutely fine, I'd kill for the soccer equivalent of that in Canada.

mistercorporate
06-09-2016, 12:09 PM
Which is absolutely fine, I'd kill for the soccer equivalent of that in Canada.

Same.

SoccMan2
06-09-2016, 12:15 PM
I should start a thread in the all sports forum asking people how would people feel if the Jays left MLB to go play in a new Canadian Baseball League, or the Raptors left the NBA to go play in an all Canadian Basketball League or better still the Leafs leave the NHL to go play in an all Canadian Hockey League. This is Just how sports is done in Canada our sports teams play in American leagues we want our teams to play in the highest league avalaible in Canada and the US. Why would Canadian teams in the MLS who are some of the best supported teams in the league go to a brand new league that is just starting out and who's future would be so uncertain , why screw around with a successful thing in terms of the support these Canadian MLS teams get in the stands and take a chance on a new league where I'm almost certain attendance would take a big hit. Moreover , I would rather play the Chicagos and the NYC's and the LA's than the Reginas and Edmontons and I think that the casual Toronto sports fans think the same too. I mean we invented hockey it's what people think about when people think of Canada and guess what we don't even have our own pro hockey league, think about that for a moment.

Fort York Redcoat
06-09-2016, 12:29 PM
I should start a thread in the all sports forum asking people how would people feel if the Jays left MLB to go play in a new Canadian Baseball League, or the Raptors left the NBA to go play in an all Canadian Basketball League or better still the Leafs leave the NHL to go play in an all Canadian Hockey League. This is Just how sports is done in Canada our sports teams play in American leagues we want our teams to play in the highest league avalaible in Canada and the US. Why would Canadian teams in the MLS who are some of the best supported teams in the league go to a brand new league that is just starting out and who's future would be so uncertain , why screw around with a successful thing in terms of the support these Canadian MLS teams get in the stands and take a chance on a new league where I'm almost certain attendance would take a big hit. Moreover , I would rather play the Chicagos and the NYC's and the LA's than the Reginas and Edmontons and I think that the casual Toronto sports fans think the same too. I mean we invented hockey it's what people think about when people think of Canada and guess what we don't even have our own pro hockey league, think about that for a moment.

Canada invented the version of hockey we know.

There's no reason we can't have our own league at a lower level. It's just more kids playing at a higher level.

Fort York Redcoat
06-09-2016, 12:30 PM
Don't know if this would even be possible, or if it's something MLSE would even consider, but how do you guys feel? Would you be in favor of TFC leaving MLS to play in the CPL?

Couple of pros and cons off the top of my head.

Pros:
- We'd be playing in our domestic league against other Canadian teams and players (the way it should be). More interest for the casual fan going up against the likes of Ottawa and Hamilton as opposed to Chicago & Philadelphia.
- Helping grow the game in this country. Having a former MLS team in the league would go a long way to legitimizing it as a serious D1 league.

Cons:
- Lower quality soccer, at least in the beginning. From what I hear the CPL would be somewhere in between the NASL and MLS. With a lower salary cap and no DP's (?), it would be harder to compete with the rest of CONCACAF.
- Uncertain future. We can't say for sure that the CPL will be a success. With MLS expansion fees rising and the cap going up every year, it's safe to say that MLS won't be folding any time soon.

If this can't happen right away, maybe it's something to consider for the future? There are many cities out there with MLS aspirations and there might not be enough room for all of them. Maybe MLSE can sell their spot in the league for a nice profit once MLS gets to 30 teams or so.

No need. We saw TFC enter a team into 3 different leagues thus far. What's one more?

jabbronies
06-09-2016, 12:31 PM
I should start a thread in the all sports forum asking people how would people feel if the Jays left MLB to go play in a new Canadian Baseball League, or the Raptors left the NBA to go play in an all Canadian Basketball League or better still the Leafs leave the NHL to go play in an all Canadian Hockey League. This is Just how sports is done in Canada our sports teams play in American leagues we want our teams to play in the highest league avalaible in Canada and the US. Why would Canadian teams in the MLS who are some of the best supported teams in the league go to a brand new league that is just starting out and who's future would be so uncertain , why screw around with a successful thing in terms of the support these Canadian MLS teams get in the stands and take a chance on a new league where I'm almost certain attendance would take a big hit. Moreover , I would rather play the Chicagos and the NYC's and the LA's than the Reginas and Edmontons and I think that the casual Toronto sports fans think the same too. I mean we invented hockey it's what people think about when people think of Canada and guess what we don't even have our own pro hockey league, think about that for a moment.


I agree with all of this

Cashcleaner
06-09-2016, 12:36 PM
I don't see any scenario where a move of TFC out of MLS would be even possible, let alone preferential. I'm all for the creation of a true Canadian domestic league that would include the reserve teams of TFC, Impact, and Whitecaps in theory, but there are a lot of financial obstacles in the way and I'm not sure if it would be a money-maker for investors and owners. I'd like to say it's a possibility and I'm all for ideas to promote the sport throughout the country, but I really don't see it happening.

The only Canadian sport league that seems to be generating any good revenue is the CHL and it's a junior league. The NBLC is struggling. The CFL has a few teams making good money and most are either just treading water or outright drowning.

greatwhitenorf
06-09-2016, 12:58 PM
Been there. Done that. Sent the wreckage to the scrap yard. No need to re-visit.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Soccer_League_(1987%E2%80%9392)

Some truly cringe-worthy telecasts on TSN - with the golden tones of Vic Rauter calling the play. And the added attraction of bombastic commissioner (and part-time wrestling promoter - you couldn't make it up) Thunderin' Dale Barnes assaulting our ears on TV and radio, demanding support for Canadian soccer.

This proposed league has a spurious aspect to it that suggests CFL owners are trying to find a tactic to combat MLS interest, which has drawn away fan and sponsor support and media coverage from the CFL in Canada's three biggest markets.

It would be crap soccer, largely played on plastic CFL fields. In stadiums paid for by municipalities who might well be thinking how to get another sport into their venues to help pay for them.

RealG-TFC
06-09-2016, 01:30 PM
I'd definitely want TFC to remain in MLS but would love for a Canadian league to take off and would definitely support a team (or teams even) in the GTA.

I think the real key is infrastructure though. If we had small but enclosed stadia like those in Scandinavia, with no visible football lines on the field, it would be great. When the stadium consist of only a lowly stand on one end it feels amateur. Heck something like Lamport Stadium with a few upgrades would be great.

Fort York Redcoat
06-09-2016, 01:46 PM
Been there. Done that. Sent the wreckage to the scrap yard. No need to re-visit.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Soccer_League_(1987%E2%80%9392)

Some truly cringe-worthy telecasts on TSN - with the golden tones of Vic Rauter calling the play. And the added attraction of bombastic commissioner (and part-time wrestling promoter - you couldn't make it up) Thunderin' Dale Barnes assaulting our ears on TV and radio, demanding support for Canadian soccer.

This proposed league has a spurious aspect to it that suggests CFL owners are trying to find a tactic to combat MLS interest, which has drawn away fan and sponsor support and media coverage from the CFL in Canada's three biggest markets.

It would be crap soccer, largely played on plastic CFL fields. In stadiums paid for by municipalities who might well be thinking how to get another sport into their venues to help pay for them.

Again protecting little ole MLS from 3rd tier competition? Yeesh. This league would be incredibly easy for you to ignore. I promise. ;)

Greatest Ripoff
06-09-2016, 01:54 PM
Would love it, I don't really care for the MLS (i'm only here for the Toronto). Also, the thought of league fixtures against Hamilton and Ottawa would be very exciting.

Greatest Ripoff
06-09-2016, 01:57 PM
It would be crap soccer, largely played on plastic CFL fields.

And how does that differ from MLS? Baseball stadiums and plastic NFL fields?

Greatest Ripoff
06-09-2016, 02:04 PM
I should start a thread in the all sports forum asking people how would people feel if Leafs leave the NHL to go play in an all Canadian Hockey League.

That might actually get me interested in hockey again. Imagine a hockey league was set up in Ontario like football is set up in England? Multiple teams in Toronto, teams in Hamilton, Kitchener, London, Oshawa, Ottawa, Sudbury, Barrie. Promotion and relegation. Imagine having enough teams throughout the province so the average person afford to attend games?

Canary10
06-09-2016, 02:07 PM
Only if there is a London Lasers.

Jpexxx
06-09-2016, 02:22 PM
On a side note:

Would anyone here support a Toronto based team in the CPL if an entity separate from TFC/ MLSE put on in?

Blizzard re-birth?!

OgtheDim
06-09-2016, 02:31 PM
On a side note:

Would anyone here support a Toronto based team in the CPL if an entity separate from TFC/ MLSE put on in?

Blizzard re-birth?!

Not sure there is a non-MLSE run stadium big enough in this city for such an endeavour.

Maybe they could get together with the Argos &....

greatwhitenorf
06-09-2016, 03:08 PM
And how does that differ from MLS? Baseball stadiums and plastic NFL fields?

It would be played mostly by young, under-resourced, bus-legged Canadian scurriers. The soccer version of CIS football. And managed by CFL and NHL owners who fear more than care about soccer. That's not the sort of stewardship I'd want for a Canadian league.

Not clear about what your second sentence is intended to say.

The best thing that could happen to Canadian soccer is that MLS grants a fourth or fifth franchise to Ottawa and one other city. Edmonton has a decent record in supporting our national teams, but not sure it has the market appeal in the States that MLS would be looking for. And Calgary? Hah! Been down the McLeod Trail many times and never once heard an encouraging word about soccer. And Winnipeg? They'll always have cherished memories of the brief, glorious existence of the Fury. An' Bobbie McMahon.

mistercorporate
06-09-2016, 03:15 PM
I dunno man, saw the whitecaps ottawa fury game and was impressed with the quality of soccer ottawa displayed. If this is going to be higher calibre of soccer than nasl then we have nothing to worry about from an entertainment perspective. We may eventually even get teams in Kitchener, Oshawa, Barrie and Sudbury in a decade if this is successful. Something that really excites me and would motivate me to do road trips there.

greatwhitenorf
06-09-2016, 03:19 PM
Again protecting little ole MLS from 3rd tier competition? Yeesh. This league would be incredibly easy for you to ignore. I promise. ;)

Protecting? Hardly. This proposed league is on a hiding to nothing. But it could be completely watchable if TSN (who you just know would be league broadcaster) had big ol', chainsmokin' Saskatchewan farm boy Darrel Dutyshynyn do the telecasts. He could regale us with boyhood memories (not that he actually participated, mind) of prairie soccer - hay bales for grandstands, Herefords for balls, tractors for goalposts. It would be un-missable.

Initial B
06-09-2016, 03:23 PM
I think everyone is missing the point. The purpose of this league is not to make money (except for TSN, who would probably show the games), but to provide a level of play between the Div3 regional leagues and the MLS clubs. It will be Div2 in all but name, but will trumpet itself as the highest level of soccer in Canada (shades of NASL). They are getting 6-7K per game here in Ottawa, so there is thought that they could get similar numbers in other cities. The CSA is being very careful in laying the groundwork for this league to make sure it doesn't suffer the first CSL's fate. The probably is going to be the travel that kills this league so they need some sponsorship from WestJet or Air Canada. I've heard Victoria, Edmonton, Calgary, Winnipeg, Hamilton, Ottawa, Quebec City, and Moncton as possible initial locations for the 8-team league.

Fort York Redcoat
06-09-2016, 03:28 PM
Protecting? Hardly. This proposed league is on a hiding to nothing. But it could be completely watchable if TSN (who you just know would be league broadcaster) had big ol', chainsmokin' Saskatchewan farm boy Darrel Dutyshynyn do the telecasts. He could regale us with boyhood memories (not that he actually participated, mind) of prairie soccer - hay bales for grandstands, Herefords for balls, tractors for goalposts. It would be un-missable.

A hiding to nothing, huh. Same odds as another Canadian MLS franchise. But while we're waiting for that there's no harm (but the big bad competition you speak of) in trying to make a league of our own.

greatwhitenorf
06-09-2016, 03:51 PM
I'd love to read some in-depth comments from Ticats owner Bob Young about how much and for how long he's cared about developing Canadian soccer. Same goes for those chaps in Calgary who own the Flames, Stamps, Roughnecks etc.

Sure, it would be great to see the Canadian game grow and better develop domestic talent. I'm just not convinced that this proposed ownership group are the right people to do it.

As for the old CSL, Air Canada provided solid support for the league. It didn't matter.

I read that Bob Young is saying it will take a $20 million commitment for five years before teams begin to see traction. I think he's going to need a decade. Whether there's deep enough pockets to work for that length of time remains to be seen.

But if the league does begin to prosper, the first thing I would expect is that MLS will take notice and add another Canadian franchise or two to keep it from becoming a competitive rival for talent and support. They aren't going to abandon the business interests of their Canadian members.

And do you think Jeff Hunt et al in Ottawa or the Calgary sports barons would turn down the opportunity to play a level up? They're business men and they will always be seeking bigger business.

OgtheDim
06-09-2016, 03:52 PM
I think everyone is missing the point. The purpose of this league is not to make money ...

The owners can't lose money forever on this.

Even CFL owners have tired of that and went out and got new stadiums to build buzz - which is why they are behind this to a large extent, trying to get more bodies into the venues they operate on behalf of the city (where have we seen this before?).



Regardless, MLSE isn't going to maximize its investment in TFC by playing in a smaller pond.

DinamoTFC
06-09-2016, 04:40 PM
Maybe revisit the idea 60-80 years from now.

The Association that will probably run this thing would be the CSA or some iteration of it.
Overall, Canadian soccer is still a joke IMO and the CSA is a large reason for that.

yes there are miniscule pockets of good things happening in Canada - but it'll probably take 60-80 years for those pockets to become big enough to influence the larger national system and get fully up to speed and running.

I know how it's done in other parts of the world, but in North America, the top professional sports leagues include the USA.
IMO - A Canadian Soccer league would always be what the CFL is to the NFL. Small potatoes.

This right here 100%.

Hell no to a move. Maybe if the CPL was a conference within MLS. But having a second Toronto team unafilliated with us and eligible to play in the Canada Cup might be an interesting idea.

SoccMan2
06-09-2016, 05:43 PM
One of the reasons the CFL is behind this new league is because they see the success of MLS teams in Toronto, Vancouver and Montreal and see how these teams are starting to take money away from the CFL franchise in those cities and now are trying to get a foothold on soccer in the remaining CFL cities without an MLS team before more of these CFL cities start looking for an MLS team of their own and then cut into their CFL market even more. I would without a doubt see an MLS team working in Ottawa, Edmonton and Calgary the CFL fears this so now is trying to get their own league going so that the MLS can't expand into those cities.

Initial B
06-09-2016, 05:53 PM
As for the old CSL, Air Canada provided solid support for the league. It didn't matter.

I read that Bob Young is saying it will take a $20 million commitment for five years before teams begin to see traction. I think he's going to need a decade. Whether there's deep enough pockets to work for that length of time remains to be seen.

But if the league does begin to prosper, the first thing I would expect is that MLS will take notice and add another Canadian franchise or two to keep it from becoming a competitive rival for talent and support. They aren't going to abandon the business interests of their Canadian members.

And do you think Jeff Hunt et al in Ottawa or the Calgary sports barons would turn down the opportunity to play a level up? They're business men and they will always be seeking bigger business.
Air Canada or West Jet would be good to have as partners, but the key is TV revenue money from either TSN or Rogers. The CPL will need $5 million a year in TV revenue spread between the teams to break even if they can average 3000 paying spectators per game. They'll need a single entity structure to help spread the load if one or two teams are in difficulty. An 8-10 year contract will give them breathing room to gain traction in the national consciousness. And if the CSA wins a WC bid, you can bet that the TV networks would be salivating over those rights.

I don't ever see the CPL being a competitor to MLS or them seeing it that way. The remaining Canadian cities are too small a market compared to what is available in the states. I also don't think MLS will keep expanding indefinitely. They'll cap it at 32 as there is a law of diminishing returns on sharing TV revenue amongst owners. Soccer is kind of unique in that there are tournaments where clubs at different levels of the pyramid can play against each other, so I foresee a rivalry between CPL and Canadian MLS clubs as to who can perform better at those competitions (when Canada gets its second spot in the CCL, it should go to the CPL champion). I remember John Pugh talking at the first Fury Supporter's pub meeting about how they considered putting in an MLS bid, but didn't think it was worth it or that they didn't have enough capital to meet the requirements. I'm not sure if that's changed in the 3 years since that meeting, but I do know they were committed to improving the Canadian talent pool.

Onyx
06-09-2016, 07:01 PM
One of the reasons the CFL is behind this new league is because they see the success of MLS teams in Toronto, Vancouver and Montreal and see how these teams are starting to take money away from the CFL franchise in those cities and now are trying to get a foothold on soccer in the remaining CFL cities without an MLS team before more of these CFL cities start looking for an MLS team of their own and then cut into their CFL market even more. I would without a doubt see an MLS team working in Ottawa, Edmonton and Calgary the CFL fears this so now is trying to get their own league going so that the MLS can't expand into those cities.

has nothing to do with soccer. These clubs control their stadiums and want to sell more beer and burgers. Thats it.

Anyways, the CPL will never get off the ground unless the CSA pays for it all.
No way any of these games will be on TSN. TSN is struggling with MLS, why would they show CPL.

jloome
06-09-2016, 07:19 PM
On the contrary, the Toronto market has demonstrated that it will only support the highest level professional sports leagues, which are all American based. Look at how the CFL is supported in this city.

If the CPL becomes a reality, it would be worth considering moving the current USL franchises across Canada, but that's where it ends in my opinion.

This is true of every major Canadian city; it's just passion blinding people to reality. In Edmonton, lacrosse couldn't survive but still often drew north of 6,000 a game, and more than 9,000 for playoffs. Meanwhile, the NASL team is seen as incompetent and second-rate, and has one of the NASL's lowest attendances.

People have adapted to an established standard from watching the multi-channel TV universe for two decades now. They want good football; the only way this league will survive and compete is if it puts a product comparable to MLS on the field. Given that for the bulk of the roster that's maybe $2M a year more than they're planning they would be shortsighted not to concentrate on quality over Canadian content, knowing the chances a successful league will create down the road. But that's not what will happen. Instead, we're getting more talk of building from the grassroots and even playing outside the MLS cities only.

Yikes.

mistercorporate
06-09-2016, 07:33 PM
The more i think about it, a team to bridge the gap between USL and MLS would make sense for MLSE.

Hamilton_Red
06-10-2016, 12:29 AM
Canada could have a pro hockey league that rivalled the NHL. In Fact if properly developed it could be the senior league to the NHL. Soccer on the other hand has got to far to go - would rather see MLS expand to mexico.




Canada invented the version of hockey we know.

There's no reason we can't have our own league at a lower level. It's just more kids playing at a higher level.

jloome
06-10-2016, 12:43 AM
Canada could have a pro hockey league that rivalled the NHL. In Fact if properly developed it could be the senior league to the NHL. Soccer on the other hand has got to far to go - would rather see MLS expand to mexico.

We're a much more urban and cosmopolitan a nation than we give ourselves credit for; the best outcome for soccer would come from an all-in investment of at least MLS levels, maybe more. As long as it was top rate, people would go, in the same way that Torontonians who wouldn't look twice at the ARgos will go to a Bills V Tampa Bay exhibition and drop a c-note a piece.

ensco
06-10-2016, 05:27 AM
I actually think a Canadian division, with 5 teams, in MLS, is the way to go. Put teams in Ottawa, Edmonton.

As a hypothetical model: say there are 30 MLS teams eventually. Have 6 divisions, they would each play an unbalanced schedule, ie 3 games total against each other, and every other MLS team once. The top two teams in each division go into MLS playoffs. Canadian division winner goes into Concacaf each year.

Pretty easy to create clusters that would lead to mostly good divisions, btw

Canada
NYx2, NE, Phil, DCU
Cascadia + Rockies (RSL + Rapids)
Califonia (3 teams) + Texas (2 teams)
Mia/Atl/Orl + ??
Chicago + KC + Minn + STL (Expansion) + 1 (Detroit?)

this analysis makes me think that we will see some expansion in the southeast and Canada that hasn't been talked about much yet - the League needs to build those clusters/rivalries up.

jimiv
06-10-2016, 08:41 AM
One of the reasons the CFL is behind this new league is because they see the success of MLS teams in Toronto, Vancouver and Montreal and see how these teams are starting to take money away from the CFL franchise in those cities and now are trying to get a foothold on soccer in the remaining CFL cities without an MLS team before more of these CFL cities start looking for an MLS team of their own and then cut into their CFL market even more. I would without a doubt see an MLS team working in Ottawa, Edmonton and Calgary the CFL fears this so now is trying to get their own league going so that the MLS can't expand into those cities.

As the CFL has done such a great job with their league and it's relationship with soccer fans in the media and in general, this is a surefire way to kill the sport in Canada and keep a CFL foothold in the markets that they remain in.

Initial B
06-10-2016, 08:48 AM
MLS will not get any increase in TV money by expanding to Canadian Cities. The US networks and eyeballs they are courting do not care to see foreign teams in their domestic league. Their nightmare would be an all-Canadian MLS final.

The owners of the CFL stadiums are looking for additional ways to monetize their asset by adding more sporting events and making sure enough concessions are open to handle the demand and turn a profit. There are two established teams in Edmonton and Ottawa that have shown they can produce decent quality of play. There are more players coming down the pipeline from L1O, PLSQ, and hopefully the PCSL. Players who wash out of the MLS academies are probably of decent enough quality that the level of play won't be horrible. The atmosphere at soccer matches is unique compared to other professional sports in North America.

zeelaw
06-10-2016, 09:48 AM
I should start a thread in the all sports forum asking people how would people feel if the Jays left MLB to go play in a new Canadian Baseball League, or the Raptors left the NBA to go play in an all Canadian Basketball League or better still the Leafs leave the NHL to go play in an all Canadian Hockey League. This is Just how sports is done in Canada our sports teams play in American leagues we want our teams to play in the highest league available in Canada and the US.

No, that is how things are done in the big cities, especially Toronto.

Look at the soccer situation around the world and realize every country has it's own sustainable league, it's embarrassing that we can't get our act together and have to rely on another federation to do it for us.


I would rather play the Chicagos and the NYC's and the LA's than the Reginas and Edmontons and I think that the casual Toronto sports fans think the same too. I mean we invented hockey it's what people think about when people think of Canada and guess what we don't even have our own pro hockey league, think about that for a moment.[/COLOR]
We invented hockey and look what's happened to it, we sold it out for the $USD and all of our teams are routinely shit, that's why none have won the cup since Canadiens in 93 or 94 w/e. They are considering Las fucking Vegas over Quebec City, if that doesn't make you want to give the finger to the NHL, nothing will.

TFC is only as good as it's profitable for MLS owners, if it's ever not, bye bye.

zeelaw
06-10-2016, 09:49 AM
Only if there is a London Lasers.
De Vos is that you?

Oldtimer
06-10-2016, 09:51 AM
I would prefer having TFC2 moving to the CPL. TFC is better off sticking with MLS.

This. MLS will continue to be the top dog in north America. Nothing I have seen in the modern NASL or in the proposed CPL will change that. I want a top flight team in Toronto. I spent time watching the Toronto Lynx playing to sparse crowds because that's all that there was. Why would I want that era back again?

Jpexxx
06-10-2016, 11:00 AM
https://twitter.com/mlsrwriters/status/740981487986737152

Greatest Ripoff
06-10-2016, 12:42 PM
Not clear about what your second sentence is intended to say.

You were saying the CPL would be inferior because of the CFL stadiums and plastic pitches, my response was that MLS plays on plastic pitches and in baseball stadiums. So what is the difference?

Lennon
06-10-2016, 01:55 PM
I'd be strongly against TFC II playing in the CPL for a couple of reasons.

1. Nothing screams 'mickey mouse league' more than having reserve teams playing in it. The CSA can't sell it as a D1 product to fans or broadcasters if TFC II, Whitecaps II, and that other MLS team's academies are in it.
2. If the quality of the league is going to be somewhere between NASL and MLS level, that's just way to high for the 16-20 year olds we have playing in USL now.

I don't think that getting the CPL to the level of MLS is an impossible task, and that's all that's needed to attract fans/sponsors/etc. This isn't like the CFL competing with the NFL. MLS isn't the La Liga of world football.

Canary10
06-10-2016, 02:53 PM
De Vos is that you?

Ha ha, no. I'm also from London. Actually, I played against that nitwit when I was a kid. (And I don't think he'd be posting in any way associated with Norwich City).

Fort York Redcoat
06-10-2016, 02:55 PM
I'd be strongly against TFC II playing in the CPL for a couple of reasons.

1. Nothing screams 'mickey mouse league' more than having reserve teams playing in it. The CSA can't sell it as a D1 product to fans or broadcasters if TFC II, Whitecaps II, and that other MLS team's academies are in it.
2. If the quality of the league is going to be somewhere between NASL and MLS level, that's just way to high for the 16-20 year olds we have playing in USL now.

I don't think that getting the CPL to the level of MLS is an impossible task, and that's all that's needed to attract fans/sponsors/etc. This isn't like the CFL competing with the NFL. MLS isn't the La Liga of world football.

Think how the MLS has to spend for talent. Change rules regularly to improve. The likelihood of CPL having the resources to match NASL with fewer teams involved would be unfavourable.

Alonso
06-10-2016, 06:14 PM
If the CPL were smart in their startup and had the money to burn for the first decade which is what it would take to catch on, they would use a $5 MIL salary cap for each team to start with no DP's. And they would always stay ahead of the MLS salary cap.

In my mind CPL teams in theory would be deeper than MLS teams and thus probably outperform them over time also likely stealing talent from MLS teams on an overall lower budget. The DP's really skew how much teams spend overall but leave the teams not very deep in talent. Also I think it's bad for team morale in general when salaries are so widely varied. Better to pay 20 guys $250,000 a year on one team than 3 guys 5 MIL each and others on the same team $50,000.

It's an advantage the CPL could pry at. They're not going to attract the super stars no matter what because they'll never have the money for it at least for a few decades anyway.

Better off scouring the world for $200,000 to $500,000 players and stacking a team with those, and probably in the long run beating MLS teams that aren't deep at all.


EDIT: quick math says that an 8 team league would need to burn $40,000,000 per year to do this. That's not a lot in my mind for wealthy investors who want to make a go at this. they'd have to know they'll lose money for the first decade. But if it caught on a single TV deal would cover the salary cap.

Onyx
06-10-2016, 07:49 PM
This. MLS will continue to be the top dog in north America. Nothing I have seen in the modern NASL or in the proposed CPL will change that. I want a top flight team in Toronto. I spent time watching the Toronto Lynx playing to sparse crowds because that's all that there was. Why would I want that era back again?

MX is the dominate league in north america ... if they offseason was any indication, they basically use MLS as a farm league

jloome
06-10-2016, 09:36 PM
If the CPL were smart in their startup and had the money to burn for the first decade which is what it would take to catch on, they would use a $5 MIL salary cap for each team to start with no DP's. And they would always stay ahead of the MLS salary cap.

In my mind CPL teams in theory would be deeper than MLS teams and thus probably outperform them over time also likely stealing talent from MLS teams on an overall lower budget. The DP's really skew how much teams spend overall but leave the teams not very deep in talent. Also I think it's bad for team morale in general when salaries are so widely varied. Better to pay 20 guys $250,000 a year on one team than 3 guys 5 MIL each and others on the same team $50,000.

It's an advantage the CPL could pry at. They're not going to attract the super stars no matter what because they'll never have the money for it at least for a few decades anyway.

Better off scouring the world for $200,000 to $500,000 players and stacking a team with those, and probably in the long run beating MLS teams that aren't deep at all.


EDIT: quick math says that an 8 team league would need to burn $40,000,000 per year to do this. That's not a lot in my mind for wealthy investors who want to make a go at this. they'd have to know they'll lose money for the first decade. But if it caught on a single TV deal would cover the salary cap.

Agreed. Agreed, agreed, agreed. It will only work if the quality is there.

Initial B
06-10-2016, 09:56 PM
If the CPL were smart in their startup and had the money to burn for the first decade which is what it would take to catch on, they would use a $5 MIL salary cap for each team to start with no DP's. And they would always stay ahead of the MLS salary cap.

EDIT: quick math says that an 8 team league would need to burn $40,000,000 per year to do this. That's not a lot in my mind for wealthy investors who want to make a go at this. they'd have to know they'll lose money for the first decade. But if it caught on a single TV deal would cover the salary cap.
These are not MLS-level investors involved in this. The CFL is starting to struggle with it's $4.5 million salary cap for 9 teams with a $40 million a year TSN TV contract. And that's an established league. There is no way they start with a $5 mill cap. Heck, all my analysis is based on an $800K cap for the CPL. I think it would be irresponsible to raise it that high all at once. I think a $5 million per year TV contract is very generous for an untested league. I calculated that travel, stadium operations, and front office/coaching/admin expenses are going to run about $850K per franchise, not including player salaries. If they can tie in the World Cup rights for the next two cycles up to a TV contract for the new league, they might be able to fetch up to $10-20 million per year for 8 years. That's probably creaming, but even then they would be able to afford a $1.5-2 million cap, which would place them ahead of most NASL franchises in terms of team wages.

Alonso
06-11-2016, 09:10 AM
These are not MLS-level investors involved in this. The CFL is starting to struggle with it's $4.5 million salary cap for 9 teams with a $40 million a year TSN TV contract. And that's an established league. There is no way they start with a $5 mill cap. Heck, all my analysis is based on an $800K cap for the CPL. I think it would be irresponsible to raise it that high all at once. I think a $5 million per year TV contract is very generous for an untested league. I calculated that travel, stadium operations, and front office/coaching/admin expenses are going to run about $850K per franchise, not including player salaries. If they can tie in the World Cup rights for the next two cycles up to a TV contract for the new league, they might be able to fetch up to $10-20 million per year for 8 years. That's probably creaming, but even then they would be able to afford a $1.5-2 million cap, which would place them ahead of most NASL franchises in terms of team wages.


Agreed. Agreed, agreed, agreed. It will only work if the quality is there.

For this league to succeed it would need one or several very wealthy investors that love the sport and want to see it grow and tap the potential of the players in this country.

Like billions.

Let's ask Frank Stronach, Chip Wilson, Garrett Camp And Bernard Sherman if they love Canada and football.

Maybe they want to buy themselves some football teams, it's what billionaires do in their natural habitat no?!?

trane
06-13-2016, 06:33 PM
Would love it, I don't really care for the MLS (i'm only here for the Toronto). Also, the thought of league fixtures against Hamilton and Ottawa would be very exciting.

I agree. I like that we play against us teams in North American sports, but in football I am all for a national team. it is not like the mls has the same tradition as MLB, NHL and NBA. Playing the Red Bull and fire is not like playing the Yankees and Tigers, or the Bulls and Nicks.

C.Ronaldo
06-14-2016, 08:34 AM
but but the trilium cup!

TFC07
06-14-2016, 08:36 AM
The whole point of CPL is to develop Canadian players since MLS haven't exactly helped much for Canadian soccer. Also, USSF will never allow Canadian division in MLS or NASL so this leave CSA no choice but start up all Canadian soccer league.

TFC and Canadian MLS teams technically could be force to move to CPL or fold if CSA wants to, but that will hurt Canadian soccer in short term.

C.Ronaldo
06-14-2016, 08:40 AM
CPL must start out of the gate capturing a young generation

That means local clubs, social media, transit friendly venues, event like game days, uber vouchers, and all games streamed on you tube live (like USL).
Im okay with eventually having an east vs west league that play in the Canadian Tire Canuck Bowl

You just need to get butts in the seats, then cash in on volume once they are there. concessions have to be reasonable and same with merchandise sales.

It needs to be as easy as possible to follow and watch CPL

Initial B
06-14-2016, 12:05 PM
CPL must start out of the gate capturing a young generation

It needs to be as easy as possible to follow and watch CPL
But the level of play itself must also be palatable. Having the league included in the EA FIFA1x franchise would also be helpful.

sully
06-14-2016, 12:34 PM
It would be like taking Swansea out of the premiership and putting them in the Welsh league. no sense in doing that.

C.Ronaldo
06-14-2016, 12:47 PM
But the level of play itself must also be palatable. Having the league included in the EA FIFA1x franchise would also be helpful.

hmm, first few years I'm not expecting more than USL quality

Initial B
06-15-2016, 06:41 AM
If the Ottawa Fury and FC Edmonton are in the mix, you can expect at least some NASL level of play. The other clubs will have to bootstrap themselves up to that level to compete.

trane
06-15-2016, 11:11 AM
It would be like taking Swansea out of the premiership and putting them in the Welsh league. no sense in doing that.

The MLS is not the premiership, and Swansea has been part of the English system for over 100 years, and there are no signs of it having hindered Welsh football. ( We will see the evidence tomorrow)

TFC/Everton
06-16-2016, 11:46 AM
If the Ottawa Fury and FC Edmonton are in the mix, you can expect at least some NASL level of play. The other clubs will have to bootstrap themselves up to that level to compete.

My brother is a Fury season ticket holder and he spoke with a staffer on whether they would be joining the Canadian Premier League. He was told they will not be joining the CPL.

Initial B
06-16-2016, 12:14 PM
The staffers are probably all told to say that. I'm a Season Ticket holder as well. I'll have to ask at the next game. But the sources are all saying that there will be an Ottawa team in the league and I can't see it being anything other than the Fury. Also a lot of us were stung by the fact that so much of the team bailed at the end of last season due to the devaluated Canadian Dollar. If all teams play in Canada, you'll never have to worry about that happening again. The MLS clubs have USD reserves so they aren't as affected by these exchange rate shifts.

mistercorporate
06-16-2016, 12:35 PM
More discussions of the CPL rumours, vote on labour day weekend and announcement maybe later this year (Grey Cup week):
http://www.rednationonline.ca/Articles2016/RecentCPLreportsconcerning.aspx