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notthesun
05-16-2016, 02:35 PM
There's been lots of Altidore talk recently spilling into various threads and with the news today, might as well contain it to one place.

http://www.torontofc.ca/post/2016/05/16/jozy-altidore-injury-update

Altidore is going to miss 6-8 weeks after his latest hamstring strain. If it goes 8 weeks he'll miss 11 games (9 MLS, 2 V-Cup).

If Giovinco is called into the Euros we're in serious trouble.

reggie
05-16-2016, 02:39 PM
and water is wet.

Ben - D.O.W.
05-16-2016, 02:43 PM
I want him to do well for us, but I don't see how you keep him past this year. You need your big players playing games, and I don't see that happening with him. Which is a shame, because I have been enjoying his play for the past month.

MartinUtd
05-16-2016, 02:44 PM
Oh geez.

Who's our third striker right now? Hamilton?

Pint
05-16-2016, 02:46 PM
Gio, Babouli, Hamilton is now our striker depth.

Jozy is a good player but is we cant count on him to be available for 75% of our schedule each year whats the point in keeping him?

reggie
05-16-2016, 02:49 PM
big fail by BEZ...not bringing in another striker.he knows jozy injury probs and that GIO is gone for a month.

MartinUtd
05-16-2016, 02:56 PM
I'd say the Bez fail was letting Gomez go, he was a versatile forward that wanted to be here. Apparently the salary dump couldn't be avoided though, I'm looking forward to when the numbers are published.

OgtheDim
05-16-2016, 02:56 PM
Our striker depth chart is

Gio
Jozy (injured)
Babouli
Endoh
Delgado
Osorio
Anybody else at TFCII
Hamilton

vortexdr
05-16-2016, 03:01 PM
Stuck with the waste of space for another 3 years. No one in their right mind would ever take Jozy off our hands at around 5 million a year....A career ending injury would be the best for TFC.

ronzilla
05-16-2016, 03:04 PM
Stuck with the waste of space for another 3 years. No one in their right mind would ever take Jozy off our hands at around 5 million a year....A career ending injury would be the best for TFC.

Somebody buy this man a beer...and a shot.

Red4ever
05-16-2016, 03:13 PM
Suspect GMing rearing it's ugly head.

OgtheDim
05-16-2016, 03:16 PM
As I said on that other thread when this comment was first put out there, wanting somebody to have a career ending injury is one sicko opinion. I get people not liking how he plays but this crosses a line.

Altidore is a human being.

And people in here, a site for supporters of TFC, want him to suffer because he doesn't play up to their standards!?!?!!

Some people need to walk away from the keyboard, go find their happy place, smell some flowers, do whatever they have to to get a sense of reality and just calm down. Calling for the injury of a player is weird ass shit.

notthesun
05-16-2016, 03:19 PM
I want him to do well for us, but I don't see how you keep him past this year. You need your big players playing games, and I don't see that happening with him. Which is a shame, because I have been enjoying his play for the past month.

I'm of the same mind. He'll be lucky to hit 22 starts this year - it's not enough. Let's not even discuss the possibility that he picks up one of these injuries right before or during the playoffs.

It's a shame. One of those players that is just inexplicably fragile. Can't have that for a guy that needs to be a difference-maker in a cap league. If I'm Bez I'm starting to put together a short list of target strikers to go after as a replacement.


big fail by BEZ...not bringing in another striker.he knows jozy injury probs and that GIO is gone for a month.

His mistake was last year. Two big money panic signings in Kantari and Gomez that have handcuffed us this year (and also not finding a transfer or loan for Moore). If we want to bring anyone in someone has to be moved out. One or two of our backup CBs seem most likely there if we do do something.

Ben - D.O.W.
05-16-2016, 03:19 PM
As I said on that other thread when this comment was first put out there, wanting somebody to have a career ending injury is one sicko opinion. I get people not liking how he plays but this crosses a line.

Altidore is a human being.

And people in here, a site for supporters of TFC, want him to suffer because he doesn't play up to their standards!?!?!!

Some people need to walk away from the keyboard, go find their happy place, smell some flowers, do whatever they have to to get a sense of reality and just calm down. Calling for the injury of a player is weird ass shit.

I can't give you reputation, but +1 from me.

BelfastBoy
05-16-2016, 03:20 PM
Jozy hasn't been under this level of scrutiny since Sunderland..

Pint
05-16-2016, 03:28 PM
Suspect GMing rearing it's ugly head.

more like clearing up TL's mess

Red4ever
05-16-2016, 03:29 PM
As I said on that other thread when this comment was first put out there, wanting somebody to have a career ending injury is one sicko opinion. I get people not liking how he plays but this crosses a line.

Altidore is a human being.

And people in here, a site for supporters of TFC, want him to suffer because he doesn't play up to their standards!?!?!!

Some people need to walk away from the keyboard, go find their happy place, smell some flowers, do whatever they have to to get a sense of reality and just calm down. Calling for the injury of a player is weird ass shit.

I can't either, but here. +1

Red4ever
05-16-2016, 03:30 PM
more like clearing up TL's mess

No, I said it correctly the first time. But thanks.

Scotty74
05-16-2016, 03:37 PM
Jozy was playing well the last few games and I predicted he would score in the Whitecaps game only for him to miss the penalty! We are screwed now as there is no-one else to come in. Babouli and Endoh can't be relied upon yet and as much as Gio can create for himself he can;t do it all

C.Ronaldo
05-16-2016, 03:42 PM
Love him but these injuries are too hard in a capped league.

Can we TFC 2 him next year?

Areathrasher
05-16-2016, 03:44 PM
Stuck with the waste of space for another 3 years. No one in their right mind would ever take Jozy off our hands at around 5 million a year....A career ending injury would be the best for TFC.

China
American expansion team

Hopefully

I've nothing against the guy, quite fond of him actually. On his day MLS is perfect for him but confidence,injuries and USMNT duty means those days are few and far between for a DP earning $4.5m a year. Bez and Manning need to find a way to jettison him.

QBall
05-16-2016, 03:58 PM
Love him but these injuries are too hard in a capped league.

Can we TFC 2 him next year?

A $5 million striker playing for our farm team. Good Lord we'd never hear the end of it from Limpact fans.

Joe Kool
05-16-2016, 04:01 PM
I like the guy too like most people on here but we need our DP's to be playing regularly as possible like Bradley and Seba and not on the treatment table so much. Some guys are just injury prone it seems and it is a shame when it happens like this. Reminding me of Defoe now from an injury standpoint. This last setback has to be the last straw. He worked, based on some advice from medical staff I guess, during the offseason to get into better shape that would lead to less injuries and it hasn't worked out. I really thought it might have and was enjoying the different threat on the field he possessed. If they can't do anything with him he will probably regain some level of fitness, play some games then be off again for another re-occurrence...seems to be the trend. Does anyone still believe he needs more time? He has had years of the same recurring injury.

C.Ronaldo
05-16-2016, 04:03 PM
I like the guy too like most people on here but we need our DP's to be playing regularly as possible like Bradley and Seba and not on the treatment table so much. Some guys are just injury prone it seems and it is a shame when it happens like this. Reminding me of Defoe now from an injury standpoint. This last setback has to be the last straw. He worked, based on some advice from medical staff I guess, during the offseason to get into better shape that would lead to less injuries and it hasn't worked out. I really thought it might have and was enjoying the different threat on the field he possessed. If they can't do anything with him he will probably regain some level of fitness, play some games then be off again for another re-occurrence...seems to be the trend. Does anyone still believe he needs more time? He has had years of the same recurring injury.


he needs to shed another 10-15lbs however, he injured it on a PK, he could weigh in at 90lbs and still get injured

Auzzy
05-16-2016, 04:10 PM
I can't give you reputation, but +1 from me.


I can't either, but here. +1

You're both members, you should be able to dish out rep points.

Red4ever
05-16-2016, 04:11 PM
You're both members, you should be able to dish out rep points.

Gotta spread it around apparently. He's a popular guy.

notthesun
05-16-2016, 05:00 PM
American expansion team

Try trading him to Atlanta. They have the money, start play next year, could like the idea of getting a big name USMNT player to kick start their first season.

portu
05-16-2016, 06:56 PM
Try trading him to Atlanta. They have the money, start play next year, could like the idea of getting a big name USMNT player to kick start their first season.
That's actually not a bad idea

Onyx
05-16-2016, 06:58 PM
i see GAM and TAM in our future once he is tradeable. Both have the same amount of goals as Jozy.

OgtheDim
05-16-2016, 07:00 PM
Suspect GMing rearing it's ugly head.

This.

Goes back to the panic buy of Gomez to cover in case Altidore didn't come back from injury (who isn't doing gangbusters at Seattle BTW) after the panic getting of Kantari.

Coupled with Hamilton not progressing as people thought 2 seasons ago and nobody wanting to take Luke Moore and we have no cap space until July and not enough strikers.


Needs fixing but no panic.

reggie
05-16-2016, 07:07 PM
i like JOZY..but we cant pay him 4.5 mil to be a good hold up striker and play maybe 20 games a year,why not get conner casey for 150 k to do that.lol

trane
05-16-2016, 07:09 PM
I have rarely seen the quality of play from a CF in this league that Altidore is giving us now. I truly people simply to not understand his contribution.

I admit that he will have to score goals as the season goes along, but even without the goals you will not easily replace the quality of his play.

reggie
05-16-2016, 07:12 PM
I have rarely seen the quality of play from a CF in this league that Altidore is giving us now. I truly people simply to not understand his contribution.

I admit that he will have to score goals as the season goes along, but even without the goals you will not easily replace the quality of his play.
it is his hammy s not his skill.

shwade
05-16-2016, 07:28 PM
I have rarely seen the quality of play from a CF in this league that Altidore is giving us now. I truly people simply to not understand his contribution.

I admit that he will have to score goals as the season goes along, but even without the goals you will not easily replace the quality of his play.


I don't think it's a question of his talent or abilities but of worth. A mega DP can't be here for less than half the games..and when he is here he'd better score at some point or at the VERY LEAST have some decent attempts at goal, he can't even get a shot off.

Richard
05-16-2016, 07:39 PM
We are so lucky he is a USMNT player as there is always some club looking to capitalize on the marketing money.

I think he needs more time but the questions are arising.

Joe Kool
05-16-2016, 08:13 PM
it is his hammy s not his skill.

I agree. I don't think most people are questioning his contribution when he plays...the issue is he just doesn't look like he will be playing that much due to his nagging injuries. As much as I respect his skill if he is only playing for 4 weeks then off 8 weeks then playing 4 weeks then off 8 weeks that is not a good pattern for a DP. We need a DP that can play regularly. Not sure why people are still going on about his contribution at this point.

James17930
05-16-2016, 08:23 PM
I agree. I don't think most people are questioning his contribution when he plays...the issue is he just doesn't look like he will be playing that much due to his nagging injuries. As much as I respect his skill if he is only playing for 4 weeks then off 8 weeks then playing 4 weeks then off 8 weeks that is not a good pattern for a DP. We need a DP that can play regularly. Not sure why people are still going on about his contribution at this point.

Yeah, I was defending him before too but this is too much now. Taking up a DP spot when you're injured so much really just is not possible in MLS. If he was healthy I'd say give him a chance until at least mid-season before making any long term decisions; but now I'd say shut him down for the year and find a replacement.

Richard
05-16-2016, 08:45 PM
Lets also not forget he missed the start of the season with a hamstring tweak too.

This is all after the training the entire offseason making sure he would slim down and reduce the likelihood of them happening.

Some guys are just not going to avoid injury, this is a reoccurring issue that has plagued his entire career.

The past is a good indicator of the future and I say we cut our losses as fast as possible.

He is only getting older and each injury is going to severely impact his long term career.

I like Altidore, but it is hard to not worry about his longevity considering he has had this problem forever.

Onyx
05-16-2016, 09:11 PM
I have rarely seen the quality of play from a CF in this league that Altidore is giving us now. I truly people simply to not understand his contribution.

I admit that he will have to score goals as the season goes along, but even without the goals you will not easily replace the quality of his play.

the issue is how many games he plays because of USMT duties plus hamstring. Plus every dollar he earns over average MLS CF (lets say $400k) is because he puts the ball in the net, if he isn't, he is not even worth $400k/yr. Thats why strikers get the big $.

jloome
05-16-2016, 09:17 PM
If it looks like this is an endless cycle of shot confidence, minor injuries and lagging productivity, we can always buy him out in the offseason.

jloome
05-16-2016, 09:25 PM
I have rarely seen the quality of play from a CF in this league that Altidore is giving us now. I truly people simply to not understand his contribution.

I admit that he will have to score goals as the season goes along, but even without the goals you will not easily replace the quality of his play.

I think his problem is that he plays with zero individual confidence; he plays REALLY well at one specific role, i.e. holding things up and linking, OR pushing wide OR attacking the posts.

He has huge potential; huge. That's always been the case. There's a reason he's scored so many highlight reel goals in his career.

But he never seems to have gotten the selfish mentality required to be a goal scorer. I believe from how he carries himself and what he says that his European journey convinced him he has greater limitations than is really the case.

I think he needs a sports psychiatrist more than a move. You can see the cogs moving when he plays. He has always thought too much instead of just taking his first instinctual step and trusting his training and practice.

But he has huge potential, huge. I literally watched EVERY game he played at Sunderland waiting for it to develop, because of the potential to highlight MLS/NA talent. And I just saw him get more and more sheltered and shattered.

Dude should have an offence built around the idea that he and Seba are both here to SCORE. He could bag twenty a year in this league if he ever had the confidence and, maybe, slimmed the fuck down.

KurtLarSUN
05-16-2016, 09:27 PM
My column in Tuesday's Sun on Jozy Altidore. http://www.torontosun.com/2016/05/16/toronto-fcs-jozy-altidore-copa-centenario

spe18
05-16-2016, 10:07 PM
Try trading him to Atlanta. They have the money, start play next year, could like the idea of getting a big name USMNT player to kick start their first season.


That's actually not a bad idea

I think this is a good idea too. The question though is, would we have to do a JDG type of deal to pull this one off? ;)

General Woolfe
05-16-2016, 10:53 PM
Is there anyway we can cut him from the squad and go after Agudelo from NE as a replacement? If we don't do something to replace him our most promising season so far will end up going the same way as our previous ones

ensco
05-16-2016, 11:07 PM
Whether he is worth the money of not, who cares? He is worth the DP slot.

I think he should maybe move because his marketing value is low here. Not because he is a stiff, which he is not.

I am fine with the injury risk. That's sports.

Dumping Gomez looking pretty stupid right this second....

notthesun
05-16-2016, 11:11 PM
Is there anyway we can cut him from the squad and go after Agudelo from NE as a replacement? If we don't do something to replace him our most promising season so far will end up going the same way as our previous ones

Mid-season, the only option (outside of a trade or transfer) is to waive him, like we had to do before with Gilberto, and we only receive cap/DP slot relief if someone within the league picks him and his contract up.

There's more flexibility at the end of the year. If we decide to move on we could try trading him to Atlanta as I imagined. If there are no suitors within the league, we could always transfer him abroad, probably take a huge bath on the transfer fee but at least he'd be off the books completely and we'd be able to pocket a portion, however small, as allocation money. Last resort would be to use our one offseason buyout to get him off the cap, but the MLSE board would have to sign off on a buyout that large.

notthesun
05-16-2016, 11:36 PM
Comparables from last season:

Altidore - 21 starts
Dwyer - 28
Wondolowski - 30
Adi - 23 (10 sub appearances though, as Portland rotated strikers often)
BWP - 33
Villa - 29
Kamara - 31

Altidore is more or less on track for the same amount this year. I just can't justify a DP player missing 1/3 of the season, and I think it's clear this isn't a run of particularly bad luck so much as something to be expected. If he does miss that much time, he needs to be producing at an elite level, like Keane did last year on 22 starts. And it's even more important that he plays because he attracts guys off of Giovinco and we have no other hold up options. I just don't see an argument that he's worth keeping, which sucks because I genuinely like him and I would be sad to see him go.

DPs are so important in this league it's silly. Look at the table from last year, every team below the red line either had ineffectual DPs or DPs that missed significant time due to injury. They either need to play often or be exceptional when playing occasionally. It doesn't appear as though Altidore can do either.

Onyx
05-17-2016, 12:05 AM
My column in Tuesday's Sun on Jozy Altidore. http://www.torontosun.com/2016/05/16/toronto-fcs-jozy-altidore-copa-centenario

who cares if he misses UMNT duty. Fuck the UMNT.

portu
05-17-2016, 12:51 AM
My column in Tuesday's Sun on Jozy Altidore. http://www.torontosun.com/2016/05/16/toronto-fcs-jozy-altidore-copa-centenario
From reading this article it seems everyone at the club has zero idea why he's so injury prone and they've had a lot of time to figure it out. They've got 6-8 weeks to figure it out or else they should consider cutting their losses, this is too bloody consistent and detrimental to the team. Kurt, you talk about how vital he is when he's healthy, so what happens when he's not? The squad is more or less structured around Bradley, Jozy and Seba and when Jozy is injured you lose a crucial part of our strategy and style and so we suffer for it and so far it's happened a lot.

Ivy
05-17-2016, 01:05 AM
When all said and done, Jozy will miss half the season this year. Unacceptable from a DP. I like Jozy just as much as the next guy, but when the league only allows for 3 players to be difference makers, then TFC has to do everything possible to have all 3 on the field.

What are TFCs options now, is the question. No buy out available, and nobody will touch Jozy with these injury frequencies.

General Woolfe
05-17-2016, 02:22 AM
I'm pretty stunned he is going to be out for so long. 6-8 weeks isn't a tweek it's a full out hamstring pull. We all saw the play that caused it. There was no stretching or straining involved, it all looked very innocuous. Which makes me think at least part of the reason for this on-going hamstring issue is mental. Perhaps related to confidence. If this is the case we should be thinking of cutting our losses, as I fear this problem seems destined to haunt him his entire career.

I sometimes think this team is truly jinxed. It's like BMO is built on an ancient burial ground or something. For the first time since our inception we finally looked like we genuinely had a team that could do something, and now we lose a DP for a substantial portion of the season. I hope we act in July to strengthen the attack and the season might still be salvageable, however if we stand pat and try to get by with Baboulli as Jozy's sole back up I fear it will end in tears once more

James17930
05-17-2016, 02:42 AM
Mid-season, the only option (outside of a trade or transfer) is to waive him, like we had to do before with Gilberto, and we only receive cap/DP slot relief if someone within the league picks him and his contract up.

There's more flexibility at the end of the year. If we decide to move on we could try trading him to Atlanta as I imagined. If there are no suitors within the league, we could always transfer him abroad, probably take a huge bath on the transfer fee but at least he'd be off the books completely and we'd be able to pocket a portion, however small, as allocation money. Last resort would be to use our one offseason buyout to get him off the cap, but the MLSE board would have to sign off on a buyout that large.

IIRC there is another option – you put him on the long-term disabled list and that frees up the DP slot.

Don't know if that's possible here, though.

OgtheDim
05-17-2016, 06:09 AM
I agree. I don't think most people are questioning his contribution when he plays...

You didn't read the post loss posts on the Vancouver game then.

Bobo
05-17-2016, 06:42 AM
I would give up a pick in order to see Jozy go but if DPs are difficult to move midseason, Jozy is near impossible. They'd be lucky to find a suitor in the offseason. I'd bet that ML$E has grown tired of that investment and might step in. Oh, what TFC could do with over $2m and a DP slot in the summer, my imagination is running wild. They need to find a way in which to appease Seba, that would be the ticket.

KurtLarSUN
05-17-2016, 06:45 AM
I would give up a pick in order to see Jozy go but if DPs are difficult to move midseason, Jozy is near impossible. They'd be lucky to find a suitor in the offseason. I'd bet that ML$E has grown tired of that investment and might step in. Oh, what TFC could do with over $2m and a DP slot in the summer, my imagination is running wild. They need to find a way in which to appease Seba, that would be the ticket.

Seba and Jozy are fairly close. I'm told Seba loves playing with Jozy, for obvious reasons...

Carter
05-17-2016, 07:12 AM
When all said and done, Jozy will miss half the season this year. Unacceptable from a DP. I like Jozy just as much as the next guy, but when the league only allows for 3 players to be difference makers, then TFC has to do everything possible to have all 3 on the field.

What are TFCs options now, is the question. No buy out available, and nobody will touch Jozy with these injury frequencies.

As I agree, its disappointing and frustrating losing Jozy for 6 to 8 weeks, the bolded portion of your comment is factually incorrect. League doesn't "allow for 3 players to be difference makers" the game could be impacted by any of the 11 on the pitch at the time.

Our last game v Van is the perfect example, the difference maker on the field wasn't any of the "3 allowed" by the league, it was Mannah, who made 82K last year... Not that wage to goal ratio really matters in this sport. Players have good games, generally when they are playing well, they are part of the difference on the pitch.

Pint
05-17-2016, 07:29 AM
Things that could be done:

1. Nothing and hope that the injuries don't keep reoccurring (kinda doubtful at this point)
2. See if he will accept a re negotiated deal in the range of 800k and use TAM to buy him down. It's a pretty massive pay cut at this point
3. See if a team will take him on (atlanta, orlando (if Larin is sold) and maybe NYRB could be interested)
4. Buy him out in the offseason and move on with the DP slot.

ronzilla
05-17-2016, 07:36 AM
Seba and Jozy are fairly close. I'm told Seba loves playing with Jozy, for obvious reasons...


Skill wise, they are moon's apart. Soccer is a business, and if a player doesn't live up to his expectations, they are gone regardless of the friendship.

Obvious reasons? Lol there is none. It's lunacy to defend altidore at this point. Numbers speak louder than words.

Joe Kool
05-17-2016, 07:53 AM
You didn't read the post loss posts on the Vancouver game then.

Haha...you are right...I didn't. :)

C.Ronaldo
05-17-2016, 08:21 AM
Luke moore still avail?

spe18
05-17-2016, 08:22 AM
Is there anyway we can cut him from the squad and go after Agudelo from NE as a replacement? If we don't do something to replace him our most promising season so far will end up going the same way as our previous ones


Mid-season, the only option (outside of a trade or transfer) is to waive him, like we had to do before with Gilberto, and we only receive cap/DP slot relief if someone within the league picks him and his contract up.

There's more flexibility at the end of the year. If we decide to move on we could try trading him to Atlanta as I imagined. If there are no suitors within the league, we could always transfer him abroad, probably take a huge bath on the transfer fee but at least he'd be off the books completely and we'd be able to pocket a portion, however small, as allocation money. Last resort would be to use our one offseason buyout to get him off the cap, but the MLSE board would have to sign off on a buyout that large.

Just to add to these posts, I 'd though I'd also post the roster rules: :)

(D) BUYOUT OF GUARANTEED CONTRACT
A club may buy out one player who has a Guaranteed Contract (including a DP’s) during the offseason and free up the corresponding budget space. Such a buyout is at the MLS club’s expense.

A club may not free up room in the salary budget with a buyout of a player’s contract during the season. In the case a team buys out a player’s contract during the season, the buyout amount will be charged against the club’s salary budget.

molenshtain
05-17-2016, 08:23 AM
Skill wise, they are moon's apart. Soccer is a business, and if a player doesn't live up to his expectations, they are gone regardless of the friendship.

Obvious reasons? Lol there is none. It's lunacy to defend altidore at this point. Numbers speak louder than words.


Last season the knock on him was that he didn't do anything when he played but score goals. It's ridiculous to turn around this season and say that "numbers speak louder than words" because he hasn't scored in five games - games where he's given his best all around performance's since he's got here.

The obvious reason is that attention to Jozy gives massive space for Seba to play in. Don't intentionally miss the point just because you're disappointed he got injured again.

OgtheDim
05-17-2016, 08:41 AM
Lets not forget that Altidore is still only 26.

burlington Red
05-17-2016, 08:48 AM
His age is actually a concern, because typically the older you get, the more frequent injuries become and take longer to heal

ronzilla
05-17-2016, 08:56 AM
Last season the knock on him was that he didn't do anything when he played but score goals. It's ridiculous to turn around this season and say that "numbers speak louder than words" because he hasn't scored in five games - games where he's given his best all around performance's since he's got here.

The obvious reason is that attention to Jozy gives massive space for Seba to play in. Don't intentionally miss the point just because you're disappointed he got injured again.


You seem confused. It's Seba that draws in 4-5 players, and he creates his own space. Jozy is the least of worries for defenders.

molenshtain
05-17-2016, 09:06 AM
You seem confused. It's Seba that draws in 4-5 players, and he creates his own space. Jozy is the least of worries for defenders.

Because Seba had so much room to work with in those games up top by himself to start the season.

You can't say he draws 4-5 players but also creates his own space. Those things are opposites. He's very adept at finding space, specifically down the left, but he works very well with a guy like Altidore occupying 1-2 CB's with his physicality and presence. It draws attention away from Seba.

shwade
05-17-2016, 09:48 AM
Altidore is DP worthy because he creates space for Seba...now I've heard everything.

Fort York Redcoat
05-17-2016, 09:50 AM
You seem confused. It's Seba that draws in 4-5 players, and he creates his own space. Jozy is the least of worries for defenders.

4-5 opposing players on Seba if it's in the air?

Not always.

molenshtain
05-17-2016, 09:53 AM
Altidore is DP worthy because he creates space for Seba...now I've heard everything.

Where did I say that?

Fort York Redcoat
05-17-2016, 09:54 AM
Where did I say that?

He may be gone. He's heard everything.g:D

OgtheDim
05-17-2016, 12:22 PM
Just gonna put this here


Old dude who scores at a WAY faster clip then anybody is injured and heading home to see family.


LEGEND

https://twitter.com/Olivier_Brett/status/732620641761906689

Initial B
05-17-2016, 12:23 PM
Goes back to the panic buy of Gomez to cover in case Altidore didn't come back from injury (who isn't doing gangbusters at Seattle BTW) after the panic getting of Kantari.
<snip>
Needs fixing but no panic.
I think the reason we saw those buys is probably because both Vanney and Bez were under the gun last year. If TFC didn't make the playoffs, I'm not sure either of them would have been around at the start of this season. I don't think we'll be seeing any more panic buys because they feel comfortable they can grind out results with the group they currently have. I do foresee a TAM-level attacker joining in the summer transfer window.

But Jozy, for as much as I like him and his play both this season and last, is simply too injury prone based on his last two years of service. How many games has he missed being injured? I'm pretty sure his utilization rate is under 70%. You should be getting an 85% utilization rate or higher on your DPs.

Carter
05-17-2016, 12:41 PM
I think the reason we saw those buys is probably because both Vanney and Bez were under the gun last year. If TFC didn't make the playoffs, I'm not sure either of them would have been around at the start of this season. I don't think we'll be seeing any more panic buys because they feel comfortable they can grind out results with the group they currently have. I do foresee a TAM-level attacker joining in the summer transfer window.

But Jozy, for as much as I like him and his play both this season and last, is simply too injury prone based on his last two years of service. How many games has he missed being injured? I'm pretty sure his utilization rate is under 70%. You should be getting an 85% utilization rate or higher on your DPs.

73.529%

Played 25 of 34 (regular season) last year.

MartinUtd
05-17-2016, 12:47 PM
73.529%

Played 25 of 34 (regular season) last year.

You should go by minutes played

1796 / 3060 = 58.693%

Carter
05-17-2016, 01:00 PM
You should go by minutes played

1796 / 3060 = 58.693%

Depends on what factors you use. Or if you want to use to skew the results... Either or, its low...

My understanding of the proper player utilization factors are below and far too much math for this afternoon.

The player utilization factor is expressed by U and it is the ratio of two weighted values: the sum of player’s prorated salary weighted by the number of minutes played mi in league matches, and the sum of players prorated salaries weighted by their maximum possible minutes played Mi in league matches.
U=∑Ni=1misi∑Ni=1Misi

MartinUtd
05-17-2016, 01:25 PM
Depends on what factors you use. Or if you want to use to skew the results... Either or, its low...

My understanding of the proper player utilization factors are below and far too much math for this afternoon.

The player utilization factor is expressed by U and it is the ratio of two weighted values: the sum of player’s prorated salary weighted by the number of minutes played mi in league matches, and the sum of players prorated salaries weighted by their maximum possible minutes played Mi in league matches.
U=∑Ni=1misi∑Ni=1Misi

Really interesting stuff. I'm assuming by 'maximum possible minutes played' they're taking into account late subs? There's no escaping the fact that sometimes tactical decisions call for a healthy scratch; and you can't hold that against the player.

Either way, I wouldn't expect anyone even goalkeepers to play 100% of every minute, but I'd hope outfield regulars are getting in at least 75% of available minutes. Nothing really to that number, so I'm sure player utilization factor is much more reliable.

69Chevy396
05-17-2016, 02:26 PM
If Altidore plays again this season, would using him as a midfielder be practical?

OgtheDim
05-17-2016, 02:52 PM
If Altidore plays again this season, would using him as a midfielder be practical?

I'm sure Jurgen is considering him there for the USMNT. :)

Red4ever
05-17-2016, 03:15 PM
Seba is great but the whole system is designed to open space up for him. Which in turn opens space up for others. Altitore is a HUGE part of that.

Some of these opinions read like first timer footy viewers

69Chevy396
05-17-2016, 03:35 PM
Seba is great but the whole system is designed to open space up for him. Which in turn opens space up for others. Altitore is a HUGE part of that.

Some of these opinions read like first timer footy viewers
Giovinco makes adjustments, and, scored with, or without Altidore last season. Having another striker on the pitch who can score in open play, should give Seba even greater opportunities. You infer that in the absence of Altidore, we would have nobody. There are many players in the league who could easily replace him, and make the team better (I suppose that poll from this Spring which identified Altidore as the most overrated player in the league, was also compiled by a bunch of first time footy viewers).

ronzilla
05-17-2016, 03:46 PM
TFC also won more games last year without jozy.

ensco
05-17-2016, 03:51 PM
The hate that happens when players miss penalties is unreal (Mahrez went through this at Leicester for several weeks mid season)

Penalties are not automatic.

Fort York Redcoat
05-17-2016, 03:52 PM
Anyone mention how the locker room chemistry would be affected if TFC chopped and changed as quick as some kid playing FIFA?

The dude is hurt and the window is closed if I'm not mistaken.

2 things I'm thankful for:

-The OP for not framing this like a "deathwatch" thread.
-This isn't a Canada National we're criticizing again.

reggie
05-17-2016, 03:55 PM
With the lack of depth we have up front,why dont they start work out Zavaleta has a striker ,he played striker in college and has some size?

69Chevy396
05-17-2016, 04:01 PM
Anyone mention how the locker room chemistry would be affected if TFC chopped and changed as quick as some kid playing FIFA?

The dude is hurt and the window is closed if I'm not mistaken.

2 things I'm thankful for:

-The OP for not framing this like a "deathwatch" thread.
-This isn't a Canada National we're criticizing again.

Considering the obscene difference in salaries, I am not so sure the departure of a player who contributes very little, will have a negative affect on the younger forwards. They want their turn, they feel they deserve it, and want to earn it. Nothing in team sports sucks as much as sitting on a bench.

OgtheDim
05-17-2016, 04:20 PM
Considering the obscene difference in salaries, I am not so sure the departure of a player who contributes very little....

Given every player talked to says he contributes a lot, I kinda think locker room chemistry would be an issue but I'm not in there so lets just say they don't seem to think like you and me.

Red4ever
05-17-2016, 04:23 PM
Giovinco makes adjustments, and, scored with, or without Altidore last season. Having another striker on the pitch who can score in open play, should give Seba even greater opportunities. You infer that in the absence of Altidore, we would have nobody. There are many players in the league who could easily replace him, and make the team better (I suppose that poll from this Spring which identified Altidore as the most overrated player in the league, was also compiled by a bunch of first time footy viewers).

I guess. What do I care the opinion of random people who just have to click a button in the internet. It's not exactly ipos reid... and even if it was, how many games do they watch... and even if it's a lot, some people still have no idea what a target man is as evidenced by this weeks brain trust.

Also, I don't care how many people in the league could be better. I care how many people on the bench right now are better and the answer is no one. After all the salary complaints and the goal complaints, we have no one on the bench right now who is better than Altidore. Period.

reggie
05-17-2016, 04:40 PM
the prob is we dont have anybody on the bench,,thats another story.

69Chevy396
05-17-2016, 05:10 PM
I guess. What do I care the opinion of random people who just have to click a button in the internet. It's not exactly ipos reid... and even if it was, how many games do they watch... and even if it's a lot, some people still have no idea what a target man is as evidenced by this weeks brain trust.

Also, I don't care how many people in the league could be better. I care how many people on the bench right now are better and the answer is no one. After all the salary complaints and the goal complaints, we have no one on the bench right now who is better than Altidore. Period.
Look, I hope he proves me wrong, I like his tenacity. As for the poll, I was wrong, he was chosen second most overrated in MLS, not by a random group of internet people, but by 123 of his peers.

http://www.espnfc.us/major-league-soccer/story/2829426/mix-diskerud-most-overrated-mls-player-in-player-poll

Red4ever
05-17-2016, 05:18 PM
Look, I hope he proves me wrong, I like his tenacity. As for the poll, I was wrong, he was chosen second most overrated in MLS, not by a random group of internet people, but by 123 of his peers.

http://www.espnfc.us/major-league-soccer/story/2829426/mix-diskerud-most-overrated-mls-player-in-player-poll

And I don't wanna go point for point. But

1. over rated doesn't mean he sucks. It means we overpaid.

2. I'd call someone over rated too if they got paid 47 times more than me.

portu
05-17-2016, 05:18 PM
You should go by minutes played

1796 / 3060 = 58.693%
Holy fuck I knew it was bad but I didn't know it was THAT bad

portu
05-17-2016, 05:20 PM
The hate that happens when players miss penalties is unreal (Mahrez went through this at Leicester for several weeks mid season)

Penalties are not automatic.
I think most have gotten past that micro issue

portu
05-17-2016, 05:46 PM
I just want to suggest Fernando Llorente as a guy that could feasibly be signed in the summer if we moved Jozy on. Guy moved to Sevilla on a free from Juve and has hardly lit it up there, has a €20m buyout but with his play for them as of late I don't see why they wouldn't be willing to flip him for much less than that. Provides everything Jozy does without injuries, international duty and has a better resume.

OgtheDim
05-17-2016, 05:57 PM
the prob is we dont have anybody on the bench,,thats another story.

Yup. Bez thought he could deal Moore and Gomez. Didn't happen.


Now we get to watch the kids - just like every other team in the league has to at some point.

ensco
05-17-2016, 06:39 PM
I think most have gotten past that micro issue

I don't.

A week ago we had the first Altidore thread. It was pretty much all praise, at worst barely muted minor criticisms about the goal drought.

http://forums.redpatchboys.ca/showthread.php?38980-Props-to-Altidore

He plays 35 more minutes, misses a penalty, gets hurt ... and this thread is a festival of people with pitchforks looking to move the guy.

The number of posts in 4 pages, saying "wow, tough luck, go get em Jozy, in July" is zero.

So let me be the first: wow, tough luck, go get em Jozy, in July

molenshtain
05-17-2016, 06:45 PM
I don't.

A week ago we had the first Altidore thread. It was pretty much all praise, at worst barely muted minor criticisms about the goal drought.

http://forums.redpatchboys.ca/showthread.php?38980-Props-to-Altidore

He plays 35 more minutes, misses a penalty, gets hurt ... and this thread is a festival of people with pitchforks looking to move the guy.

The number of posts in 4 pages, saying "wow, tough luck, go get em Jozy, in July" is zero.

So let me be the first: wow, tough luck, go get em Jozy, in July


seconded. The look on his face after he pulled up and missed the penalty was heartbreaking. Not to mention, you could tell he knew he was going to get tons of hurled abuse and absolutely no sympathy from the stadium.

Frankly a lot of the shit I heard in my section went way too far and was mildly racist. It was not nice to sit through.

Fort York Redcoat
05-18-2016, 08:10 AM
I don't.

A week ago we had the first Altidore thread. It was pretty much all praise, at worst barely muted minor criticisms about the goal drought.

http://forums.redpatchboys.ca/showthread.php?38980-Props-to-Altidore

He plays 35 more minutes, misses a penalty, gets hurt ... and this thread is a festival of people with pitchforks looking to move the guy.

The number of posts in 4 pages, saying "wow, tough luck, go get em Jozy, in July" is zero.

So let me be the first: wow, tough luck, go get em Jozy, in July

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to ensco again.

Sorry, bud, but props.

Ben - D.O.W.
05-18-2016, 08:14 AM
He plays 35 more minutes, misses a penalty, gets hurt ... and this thread is a festival of people with pitchforks looking to move the guy.

I can only speak for myself, but I never wanted to get rid of Altidore because of the missed penalty, they happen. I was actually glad to see Giovinco wanting to support his team-mate and insisting Jozy take it (since apparently it's Seba's call on the field) - thought it was great to see the team support each other.

I was super bummed that he is hurt again though - but I think most people are upset because he has made this team better when he has played this season. But given the league that we're in and the restrictions that come with it you can't have a lynch pin of the team playing less than 2/3 of the games consistently. I really want him to succeed with TFC, but how long can you realistically keep him around missing this many games?

You're completely right though - my heart really goes out to the guy. I hope he comes back in the summer and starts getting streaky again. And figures out whatever is going on with his hamstrings.

MartinUtd
05-18-2016, 09:33 AM
Just a little bit of revisionism here, but that's okay, we all like to get our point across.

Altidore had a good game a week and a half ago but prior to that there were discussions that he wasn't pulling his weight and a was a waste of a DP slot. Then Vancouver happened that reaffirmed all those doubts after said doubters went quiet for a week. This is simply not flavour of the week/month scapegoating, it's an aggregate effect of a fan base that have watched three strikers come through on the same money and perform in two distinct camps. You've got Giovinco and 1st half Defoe in one camp and Altidore and 2nd half Defoe on the other. Altidore and 2nd half Defoe under performed for very different reasons but the net result is the same: A player not on the pitch who's allocated substantial resources from the team.

OgtheDim
05-18-2016, 10:08 AM
We all listen to the narratives we want to listen to.
The only real known and agreed upon facts about Altidore are is he has had 4 hamstring injuries in 2 years on two different legs & when he has been healthy with TFC he scored last season enough to make him in the top 10 of MLS goal scorers (on a team with the #1). Everything else is opinion of worth - stock in trade in team discussions.

There are differences in opinion among supporters about the quality of his support work this season - there is NO difference in opinion among the media, players & coaches on this. None. He has been hands down lauded as fulfilling his promise as a target man creating spaces for players.

Altidore came to here with a significant amount of USMNT based bashers and EPL watching bashers in tow. He has not and is unlikely now to win those people over. Minds are made up. It would take 2 years of consistent scoring without injury to get it into people's heads that the guy can play. Some other people once he got there do not like his way of working or think he doesn't enough. Others think he should be scoring goals and that's the only way to judge him.

For some, if he plays well, its an abberation. For others, its fullfillment of promise

If he doesn't score, he's a bum or unlucky and/or playing well otherwise.

If he does score, it doesn't count as he should have played more or its all that he should be.

That's life as a lightning rod.


The one thing in this thread I find really strange (well apart from the couple of people crowing over his injury and wishing he would have his career finished) is the people saying he should lose weight - the guy lost more then 20 pounds over the off season. He's been taking care of himself. His Hamstrings are dodgy - that's the concern.

pdubs
05-18-2016, 10:15 AM
Yep. That is where I stand on this. My only real issue is he isn't on the field enough with this nagging hamstring injury. Our DP's need to be durable and Jozy doesn't seem to be able to stay healthy. We can manage the USMNT call-ups I think, but that hamstring just won't heal apparently.

Carter
05-18-2016, 10:19 AM
Just a little bit of revisionism here, but that's okay, we all like to get our point across.

Altidore had a good game a week and a half ago but prior to that there were discussions that he wasn't pulling his weight and a was a waste of a DP slot. Then Vancouver happened that reaffirmed all those doubts after said doubters went quiet for a week. This is simply not flavour of the week/month scapegoating, it's an aggregate effect of a fan base that have watched three strikers come through on the same money and perform in two distinct camps. You've got Giovinco and 1st half Defoe in one camp and Altidore and 2nd half Defoe on the other. Altidore and 2nd half Defoe under performed for very different reasons but the net result is the same: A player not on the pitch who's allocated substantial resources from the team.

You are trying to measure two completely different roles. Striker v target man.

Target man - being able to hold the ball, bringing team-mates into play, winning headers and making sure the opposition’s defenders don’t get an easy ride
Striker - should be a team’s leading goal scorer and the most dangerous player in the attacking third of the field.

Yes, Altidore was brought to score some goals. But his production rate will never be equal to Giovinco. Its like comparing Apples to Oranges.

I have seen Altidore do all the above job requirements during his short career here.... (does the position warrant DP Money is another discussion entirely.)
:):hump:

MartinUtd
05-18-2016, 10:41 AM
It's not even about roles for me. It's about How can he be effective when he's not on the field. My comparisons involving Defoe were more about having a forward threat - whether that be a goal scoring threat or a play creation threat. We've hired two thirds of a player to contribute for a full season, that's just the breaks when you take on an injury prone player at the behest of the MLS front office (because I'm pretty sure without this involvement the Sunderland swap does not happen but Defoe leaves anyway).

I feel like Alan Gordon could do the job, or is he passed it now? Haven't paid much attention to him recently.

Red4ever
05-18-2016, 10:58 AM
You are trying to measure two completely different roles. Striker v target man.

Target man - being able to hold the ball, bringing team-mates into play, winning headers and making sure the opposition’s defenders don’t get an easy ride
Striker - should be a team’s leading goal scorer and the most dangerous player in the attacking third of the field.

Yes, Altidore was brought to score some goals. But his production rate will never be equal to Giovinco. Its like comparing Apples to Oranges.

I have seen Altidore do all the above job requirements during his short career here.... (does the position warrant DP Money is another discussion entirely.)
:):hump:

Read it. Study it. Drink it in.

Carter
05-18-2016, 11:02 AM
It's not even about roles for me. It's about How can he be effective when he's not on the field. My comparisons involving Defoe were more about having a forward threat - whether that be a goal scoring threat or a play creation threat. We've hired two thirds of a player to contribute for a full season, that's just the breaks when you take on an injury prone player at the behest of the MLS front office (because I'm pretty sure without this involvement the Sunderland swap does not happen but Defoe leaves anyway).

I feel like Alan Gordon could do the job, or is he passed it now? Haven't paid much attention to him recently.

AG has played a total of 38 minutes this year, making 110K. Played 977 minutes last year 5 goals. Its possible he could do it... Although he is 34...

OgtheDim
05-18-2016, 11:07 AM
By all accounts Alan Gordon can't do pace anymore and can't find spaces - he's a role filler at the end of the game as a straight on banger with his head - that's not how Altidore plays.

Fort York Redcoat
05-18-2016, 11:19 AM
It's not even about roles for me. It's about How can he be effective when he's not on the field. My comparisons involving Defoe were more about having a forward threat - whether that be a goal scoring threat or a play creation threat. We've hired two thirds of a player to contribute for a full season, that's just the breaks when you take on an injury prone player at the behest of the MLS front office (because I'm pretty sure without this involvement the Sunderland swap does not happen but Defoe leaves anyway).

I feel like Alan Gordon could do the job, or is he passed it now? Haven't paid much attention to him recently.

Well he would need convincing that management has changed drastically. He's a California guy who thought we were the best thing about Toronto and not much else.

MartinUtd
05-18-2016, 11:20 AM
Yeah that was just wishful thinking on my part. He really left an impression me during that half season or so. What was that, 5 years ago? Time's going by too fast for me lol

MartinUtd
05-18-2016, 11:20 AM
Well he would need convincing that management has changed drastically. He's a California guy who thought we were the best thing about Toronto and not much else.

Can't disagree when ABC was running the show :/

Initial B
05-18-2016, 11:49 AM
Just curious: Bradley has scored fewer goals than Jozy and costs more, so why isn't there much vitriol against him as there is against Jozy?

Fort York Redcoat
05-18-2016, 11:53 AM
Just curious: Bradley has scored fewer goals than Jozy and costs more, so why isn't there much vitriol against him as there is against Jozy?

A General commands, a tank shoots. ;)

Derko
05-18-2016, 12:10 PM
I don't.

A week ago we had the first Altidore thread. It was pretty much all praise, at worst barely muted minor criticisms about the goal drought.

http://forums.redpatchboys.ca/showthread.php?38980-Props-to-Altidore

He plays 35 more minutes, misses a penalty, gets hurt ... and this thread is a festival of people with pitchforks looking to move the guy.

The number of posts in 4 pages, saying "wow, tough luck, go get em Jozy, in July" is zero.

So let me be the first: wow, tough luck, go get em Jozy, in July

Me as well, people need someone to blame

OgtheDim
05-18-2016, 12:11 PM
Just curious: Bradley has scored fewer goals than Jozy and costs more, so why isn't there much vitriol against him as there is against Jozy?

Not as much but it is out there. In here, somebody in the post Vancouver thread said Bradley wasn't worth $200K a year. This after well...this play


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYcMZiemmeg

ronzilla
05-18-2016, 12:16 PM
Just curious: Bradley has scored fewer goals than Jozy and costs more, so why isn't there much vitriol against him as there is against Jozy?

Bradley is not a striker and does his job for most part.

MartinUtd
05-18-2016, 12:59 PM
I couldn't believe Bradley's shot was stopped in Portland. What a save though.

Carter
05-18-2016, 09:35 PM
Bradley is not a striker and does his job for most part.
Nor is Jozy, he is a target man, not a striker, huge difference.

Definitely noticed the difference on the pitch tonight with lil jay chapman as target man.

Lennon
05-18-2016, 10:09 PM
I would trade Jozy for a bag of balls if we could. He will never live up to that DP contract.

Even if he was putting up Giovinco numbers (never will) he's a bad deal when he's only available to play in half our games. Simple as that.

ronzilla
05-18-2016, 10:39 PM
Nor is Jozy, he is a target man, not a striker, huge difference.

Definitely noticed the difference on the pitch tonight with lil jay chapman as target man.

I never said he was. I was just using a blatant example that your probably didn't catch.



I would trade Jozy for a bag of balls if we could. He will never live up to that DP contract.

Even if he was putting up Giovinco numbers (never will) he's a bad deal when he's only available to play in half our games. Simple as that.


It will be a celebration of it's own when jozy is gone.

dutch
05-19-2016, 03:19 AM
He is not a designated player on any team in Major League Soccer
How can you be a designated player when your not on the pitch?
Oh he's healthy? hes going with Bradley to the U.S
Giovinco playing well? Yay he made it into the Azzurri!
Anybody notice a problem here? Giovinco earns his pay cheque
How many more years can we guarantee he wants our cheques?
Nobody ever really talks about it. Bradley earns his pay cheque
every game, this isnt about him anyways.
Gomez is trying to out perform a Seattle DP on his 3 month contract.
He's no messiah he's just trying to earn a pay cheque, you know who else is?
Lots of people

Dump any dead weight to keep the boat afloat
This is no 3 year rebuilding plan

http://www.seattletimes.com/sports/sounders/sounders-forward-herculez-gomez-hears-his-doubters-i-want-to-shut-you-up/

OgtheDim
05-19-2016, 05:55 AM
People panicing over the last two games but nor realising how much we missed the big guy last night. What ever....

Red4ever
05-19-2016, 07:47 AM
Jozy was terrible again last night.

ensco
05-19-2016, 07:57 AM
Jozy was terrible again last night.

It was like he wasn't even there.

Auzzy
05-19-2016, 10:06 AM
Jozy was terrible again last night.


It was like he wasn't even there.

POTD contenders right here. We should setup a poll or something.

ryan
05-19-2016, 10:58 AM
It was like he wasn't even there.

On the bright side he didn't get subbed off for injury.

trane
05-19-2016, 01:17 PM
But once again he did not score.

OgtheDim
05-19-2016, 01:21 PM
For the first time since the game in Yankee Stadium, I found myself a tad dissapointed in his hold up play.

bgnewf
05-19-2016, 06:23 PM
...The one thing in this thread I find really strange (well apart from the couple of people crowing over his injury and wishing he would have his career finished) is the people saying he should lose weight - the guy lost more then 20 pounds over the off season. He's been taking care of himself. His Hamstrings are dodgy - that's the concern...

Exactly!!!

In a Salary Cap League you can't waste a penny and an oft injured player is a waste of cap space. I think this latest injury puts things into perfect perspective. Jozy, great team play that his coaches and teammates love notwithstanding, can't be relied upon to give you the return/quality/tangibles/intangibles you need from a DP striker.

The problem has not been his performances in 2016 - In a lot of ways (with the exception of balls in twine) his game has IMPROVED from 2015. His attitude to work on his weight and conditioning off season speaks to his quality and character. But unless he can get two replacement hamstrings he will never be more than he is now - a good player who can't be relied upon to be there when you truly need him. For that reason alone TFC needs to move on.

Ultra & Proud
05-19-2016, 08:34 PM
On the plus side, 4 years ago we would have signed Lampard for $6M and watched him play 10 matches in a year and a half. At least we took a decent shot on a good, young player that just has bad hamstrings. It's a shame too because he really was making a difference.

SirBobSaget
05-20-2016, 12:03 AM
On the plus side, 4 years ago we would have signed Lampard for $6M and watched him play 10 matches in a year and a half. At least we took a decent shot on a good, young player that just has bad hamstrings. It's a shame too because he really was making a difference.

Not "took a decent shot" but fully committed, he is on contract until 2020 tying up a DP spot and taking in almost 5 million a year. The only way this becomes a good deal is if he miraculously becomes healthy playing in 90% of games and performing like he did in the Dallas game.

Carter
05-20-2016, 06:23 AM
Not "took a decent shot" but fully committed, he is on contract until 2020 tying up a DP spot and taking in almost 5 million a year. The only way this becomes a good deal is if he miraculously becomes healthy playing in 90% of games and performing like he did in the Dallas game.

Pretty sure you fully commit on any player you sign, I really don't think anyone with half a brain would sign a deal, leaving secure employment with another club, for a well "maybe" but we are only promising you maybe a year deal.

People have had a hate on for Jozy since he arrived, even when he scored 13 goals last year.

I wish him a speedy recovery, so we can have the beast back on the pitch, making the difference we were missing on Wednesday night.

Detroit_TFC
05-20-2016, 08:47 AM
If Bez and Vanney conclude he is can't return to adequate playing levels, he gets the buy out next season. An expensive option but an available one.

burlington Red
05-20-2016, 09:14 AM
On the plus side, 4 years ago we would have signed Lampard for $6M and watched him play 10 matches in a year and a half. At least we took a decent shot on a good, young player that just has bad hamstrings. It's a shame too because he really was making a difference.

difference with Lampard is he's 38 yrs old now, he's coming off 20 yrs in the toughest league in the world. Wear and tear has to be expected. Jozy is only 27 yrs old.
I think perhaps the biggest difference between the two is NYCFC is set up to cope with Lampards loss, actually some may argue they look better in his absence, whereas we aren't at this stage set up to cope without Jozy ,not consistently anyway.
Watching the NYCFC game the other night, our game was crying out for Jozy whereas NYCFC were missing all 3 of their DP's.
I don't think we could be as competitive starting a game minus our 3 dp's especially away from home. Some of the hate coming Jozy's way is probably unfairly related to our lack of squad depth in certain key areas.

Onyx
05-20-2016, 09:49 AM
If Bez and Vanney conclude he is can't return to adequate playing levels, he gets the buy out next season. An expensive option but an available one.

unless garber can twist some arms and get one of the US owners to take him off our hands for SFA, its our only option.

Ruffian
05-20-2016, 10:34 AM
If Bez and Vanney conclude he is can't return to adequate playing levels, he gets the buy out next season. An expensive option but an available one.

Is this true? I understand it as in 2017 season they can get out of the three future seasons the contract runs for? Would they pay 15 Mil to do that?

reggie
05-20-2016, 10:46 AM
so it will be another get out of jail card for BEZ if they release JOZY,no way mlse pay that 15mil to cut him.

69Chevy396
05-20-2016, 10:51 AM
Pretty sure you fully commit on any player you sign, I really don't think anyone with half a brain would sign a deal, leaving secure employment with another club, for a well "maybe" but we are only promising you maybe a year deal.

People have had a hate on for Jozy since he arrived, even when he scored 13 goals last year.

I wish him a speedy recovery, so we can have the beast back on the pitch, making the difference we were missing on Wednesday night.
We do not hate him. The team is permitted 3 designated players. The transfer window opens soon, and the plethora of decent and available forwards, will be calling on other teams, including MLS clubs, while we try to score goals on the back of one player. Altidore had a great year in 2015, but he is through. Good managment knows when to cut their losses and change for the better.

69Chevy396
05-20-2016, 10:54 AM
so it will be another get out of jail card for BEZ if they release JOZY,no way mlse pay that 15mil to cut him.
If the team struggles this summer, and plays in front of a half empty stadium, they might take the financial risk.

OgtheDim
05-20-2016, 11:05 AM
If the team struggles this summer, and plays in front of a half empty stadium, they might take the financial risk.

Just an FYI - they've sold more then half the tickets as Seasons.

Fort York Redcoat
05-20-2016, 11:09 AM
We do not hate him. The team is permitted 3 designated players. The transfer window opens soon, and the plethora of decent and available forwards, will be calling on other teams, including MLS clubs, while we try to score goals on the back of one player. Altidore had a great year in 2015, but he is through. Good managment knows when to cut their losses and change for the better.

At least you've mentioned the transfer window. Seeing the reactionary knee jerk " We need to get rid of him NOW!" is eye roll worthy.

During the season trades that involve players must occur during either the Primary Transfer Window (2016: February 18 – May 11) or Secondary Transfer Window (2016: July 4 – August 3).

69Chevy396
05-20-2016, 11:19 AM
Just an FYI - they've sold more then half the tickets as Seasons.
That is amazing. I didn't know that

69Chevy396
05-20-2016, 11:23 AM
At least you've mentioned the transfer window. Seeing the reactionary knee jerk " We need to get rid of him NOW!" is eye roll worthy.

During the season trades that involve players must occur during either the Primary Transfer Window (2016: February 18 – May 11) or Secondary Transfer Window (2016: July 4 – August 3).
I think most of us will agree, that Seba will return to Europe at the end of his contract. Consequently, now is a good time to go for the championship, so yes, I would move Altidore for a more dynamic proven goal scorer. Imagine another top flight European player alongside Seba?

shwade
05-20-2016, 11:35 AM
I think most of us will agree, that Seba will return to Europe at the end of his contract. Consequently, now is a good time to go for the championship, so yes, I would move Altidore for a more dynamic proven goal scorer. Imagine another top flight European player alongside Seba?

But, but can they hold the ball up for Seba? :facepalm:

69Chevy396
05-20-2016, 12:03 PM
But, but can they hold the ball up for Seba? :facepalm:
I can see the value of that role, but it remains odd that Altidore did not register an assist in 2015.

Onyx
05-20-2016, 12:29 PM
so it will be another get out of jail card for BEZ if they release JOZY,no way mlse pay that 15mil to cut him.

is that the buy-out $ figure, find it hard to believe because that is basically what would be left on the contract anyways if he played

Detroit_TFC
05-20-2016, 12:56 PM
Is this true? I understand it as in 2017 season they can get out of the three future seasons the contract runs for? Would they pay 15 Mil to do that?

Very unlikely but if they had to clear him out (if say, a live wire DP option became available, which is probably the only reason they would consider this), it is an option. I don't think they would do it just because they are disappointed with him. There would have to be strong medical evidence of JA's inability to continue coupled with JA's unwillingness to retire. More likely he will just continue the recovery/injury cycle.

I'm not a praying man but I hope beyond hope there is a way to get him back playing at a high level. That would be my preferred choice.

NolbertoS
05-20-2016, 02:42 PM
Man, I really hope MLS cuts MLSE a break for taking on the Altidore contract. He seriously doesn't deserve the contract he gets. If I were MLSE, buy a journeyman player from La Liga or Serie A, to make a serious run at the championship. Bez gave Altidore a ridiculous salary.

portu
05-20-2016, 02:50 PM
I think most of us will agree, that Seba will return to Europe at the end of his contract. Consequently, now is a good time to go for the championship, so yes, I would move Altidore for a more dynamic proven goal scorer. Imagine another top flight European player alongside Seba?
I said it once I'll say it again: Llorente

Carter
05-20-2016, 03:36 PM
We do not hate him. The team is permitted 3 designated players. The transfer window opens soon, and the plethora of decent and available forwards, will be calling on other teams, including MLS clubs, while we try to score goals on the back of one player. Altidore had a great year in 2015, but he is through. Good managment knows when to cut their losses and change for the better.
Good management? Same management that brought us the Bloody Big Mess?

I understand the designated player rule, although LA has 5, but that's the Beckham rule, showing its ugly head.

Not every player is going to be a Wondo or Kamara, or Gio, different players have different roles and build the squad around their key players.

The only teams I can think of that has multiple players with double digit GS in 2015, are NY, KC and TO, we were the only team with 2 players in the Top 10 for GS last year.

KC had three players with double digit GS and they placed 6 in their division last year. More goals by more players doesn't mean more wins. Same with us...

I do agree, we need to find someone else dependable to pot some goals other than Gio, but the Crap about him not scoring, really has no room in the discussion.

I've said it before, he's a target man, when he's healthy he does his job well. He's just gotta figure out the hammies, and get negativity that comes for social media and forums out of his head.

Hes 26, if you think he's through I think you need to give your head a shake. His best years are still to come.

notthesun
05-20-2016, 04:10 PM
I said it once I'll say it again: Llorente

I kind of doubt the willingness of MLSE to pay more large transfer fees. We paid $10 million to get Defoe and had to give him away for free to get a return, $3 million for Gilberto who we gave away, $10 million for Bradley. Meanwhile we sign Giovinco on a free and he's the best player in the league. If I'm on the MLSE board I'm looking at the return I'm getting for all these big transfer fees and thinking it makes more sense to sign guys without a contract. Llorente is under contract for another 2 years and has a €20 million buyout clause. (http://www.espnfc.us/story/2584017/fernando-llorente-joins-sevilla-after-ending-juventus-deal)

So, purely in the interest or stirring things up:

Emmanuel Adebayor's contract is up in a month. He's already said he plans to leave (http://www.espnfc.com/barclays-premier-league/story/2876201/emmanuel-adebayor-to-leave-crystal-palace-alan-pardew-ready-to-sign-new-contract) and I'm pretty sure we were linked to him once before. History of attitude problems, of course.

Dani Osvaldo. Italian connection with Giovinco - good. Currently without a contract because he was caught smoking a cigarette in a bathroom after a game - bad (http://www.goal.com/en/news/585/argentina/2016/05/13/23472852/-?). Even longer history of attitude problems than Adebayor, but hey, it would be a free transfer.

Cheick Diabaté. 28 years old, 6 ft. 4 target striker, contract with Bordeaux ending in a month. Good scoring record in Ligue 1: 10 goals in 17 starts this year, 8 in 13 the year before, 12 in 18 year before that. Claimed to the press a week ago that he hasn't received a new contract offer from Bordeaux, even though it sounds like he has (http://www.afrik-foot.com/bordeaux-diabate-en-plein-poker-menteur). Sounds great to me... until you realize he hasn't started over 18 games in a season for at least the last 6 years, if not more. Long injury history. Sigh. I'd sign this guy in a second if he could stay healthy. Scores a boatload of goals off crosses from what I've seen.

Fort York Redcoat
05-20-2016, 04:38 PM
Man, I really hope MLS cuts MLSE a break for taking on the Altidore contract. He seriously doesn't deserve the contract he gets. If I were MLSE, buy a journeyman player from La Liga or Serie A, to make a serious run at the championship. Bez gave Altidore a ridiculous salary.

You started off great and ended all ridiculous. Happy for you you're keen on big leagues but we could find journeymen anywhere. And Bez? You started out with laying some blame in the right direction but Bez was not the only one in on this deal.

Fort York Redcoat
05-20-2016, 04:41 PM
I kind of doubt the willingness of MLSE to pay more large transfer fees. We paid $10 million to get Defoe and had to give him away for free to get a return, $3 million for Gilberto who we gave away, $10 million for Bradley. Meanwhile we sign Giovinco on a free and he's the best player in the league. If I'm on the MLSE board I'm looking at the return I'm getting for all these big transfer fees and thinking it makes more sense to sign guys without a contract. Llorente is under contract for another 2 years and has a €20 million buyout clause. (http://www.espnfc.us/story/2584017/fernando-llorente-joins-sevilla-after-ending-juventus-deal)

So, purely in the interest or stirring things up:

Emmanuel Adebayor's contract is up in a month. He's already said he plans to leave (http://www.espnfc.com/barclays-premier-league/story/2876201/emmanuel-adebayor-to-leave-crystal-palace-alan-pardew-ready-to-sign-new-contract) and I'm pretty sure we were linked to him once before. History of attitude problems, of course.

Dani Osvaldo. Italian connection with Giovinco - good. Currently without a contract because he was caught smoking a cigarette in a bathroom after a game - bad (http://www.goal.com/en/news/585/argentina/2016/05/13/23472852/-?). Even longer history of attitude problems than Adebayor, but hey, it would be a free transfer.

Cheick Diabaté. 28 years old, 6 ft. 4 target striker, contract with Bordeaux ending in a month. Good scoring record in Ligue 1: 10 goals in 17 starts this year, 8 in 13 the year before, 12 in 18 year before that. Claimed to the press a week ago that he hasn't received a new contract offer from Bordeaux, even though it sounds like he has (http://www.afrik-foot.com/bordeaux-diabate-en-plein-poker-menteur). Sounds great to me... until you realize he hasn't started over 18 games in a season for at least the last 6 years, if not more. Long injury history. Sigh. I'd sign this guy in a second if he could stay healthy. Scores a boatload of goals off crosses from what I've seen.

This is what we get for springing for it once. Now everybody expects us to try and operate like foreign leagues. We're not there yet. Not every year.

Onyx
05-20-2016, 05:30 PM
I kind of doubt the willingness of MLSE to pay more large transfer fees. We paid $10 million to get Defoe and had to give him away for free to get a return, $3 million for Gilberto who we gave away, $10 million for Bradley. Meanwhile we sign Giovinco on a free and he's the best player in the league. If I'm on the MLSE board I'm looking at the return I'm getting for all these big transfer fees and thinking it makes more sense to sign guys without a contract. Llorente is under contract for another 2 years and has a €20 million buyout clause. (http://www.espnfc.us/story/2584017/fernando-llorente-joins-sevilla-after-ending-juventus-deal)
.

This.
TL is gone. We are not going pay big bucks for DPs anymore. I don't even see us taking on salary. MB and jozy have been a disaster financially and on the pitch. No one is championing this that the board level any more. Enjoy these guys while you can.
In 3 years we will have the same model as NYRB, Portland, etc.

ordrummerboi
08-20-2016, 12:03 PM
Jozy to play full 90 today?

Pint
08-20-2016, 12:14 PM
Maybe, we do play Wednesday and sat so minutes need to be managed this week.

ManUtd4ever
08-20-2016, 04:50 PM
This.
TL is gone. We are not going pay big bucks for DPs anymore. I don't even see us taking on salary. MB and jozy have been a disaster financially and on the pitch. No one is championing this that the board level any more. Enjoy these guys while you can.
In 3 years we will have the same model as NYRB, Portland, etc.

I'm fine with a prototypical MLS model if it is successful on the pitch. The Lieweke model was unsustainable from the get go.

ordrummerboi
08-20-2016, 08:26 PM
Great game on a streak

notthesun
08-20-2016, 08:34 PM
He's really in form now. If he can keep this up we're gonna look real scary come playoffs.

Yohan
08-20-2016, 08:54 PM
http://www.mlssoccer.com/post/2016/08/17/armchair-analyst-jozy-altidore-healthy-and-scoring-goals-again

Redcoe15
08-20-2016, 09:43 PM
We need to make a TIFO of him as "The Bull".

OgtheDim
08-21-2016, 08:47 AM
El Toro

shwade
08-21-2016, 09:09 AM
A Spanish nickname doesn't apply to Altidore anymore, that's dumb.

Yohan
08-21-2016, 09:20 AM
El Toro
isn't that Blas Perez's nickname?

OgtheDim
08-21-2016, 09:41 AM
If wikipedia doesn't say so, is it true? :)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_Toro_(nickname)

notthesun
08-21-2016, 11:36 AM
Jozy is already The Beast!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5g3K7_rS7Q

TFC/Everton
08-21-2016, 12:11 PM
This.
TL is gone. We are not going pay big bucks for DPs anymore. I don't even see us taking on salary. MB and jozy have been a disaster financially and on the pitch. No one is championing this that the board level any more. Enjoy these guys while you can.
In 3 years we will have the same model as NYRB, Portland, etc.

I think the opposite. This team was the worst in MLS before they started paying big bucks for players. They changed their budget strategy and started winning. A couple of home playoff games, maybe an MLS Cup final + champions league games that will be part of our season ticket packages in 2017 will mean additional income for the team.

They expanded and renovated BMO Field to accommodate the new demand for tickets brought on by Defoe level players. This is the new business model going forward.

Th Redbulls tried to do the same thing with Henry/Rafa and Cahill but average home attendance peaked at 19,691 in 2011 and dropped to the low 18,281 in 2012. Fans didn't show up to a brand new stadium and to see their star studded lineup. The opposite has happened in Toronto and we are averaging 27,000 per game. If this team can go far in the playoffs, weekly sellouts are not hard to imagine.

In Portland, Merritt Paulson, son of George W. Bush Treasury Secretary Hank Paulson does not have the personal cash to spend like TFC.

If TFC fails to do anything in the playoffs over the next few years and home attendance drops significantly, they might take another look at the business model, but for now, there is now way we are going to cut payroll by 300% over the next few years.

TFC/Everton
08-21-2016, 12:15 PM
I'm fine with a prototypical MLS model if it is successful on the pitch. The Lieweke model was unsustainable from the get go.

Why is a $22 million payroll unsustainable? Please explain.

Yohan
08-24-2016, 12:45 PM
http://www.mlssoccer.com/post/2016/08/24/how-do-jozy-altidore-didier-drogba-and-cyle-larin-stack
comparing Altidore to Drogba and Larin

anto7
08-24-2016, 06:20 PM
In the 14 games Altidore has played this year, Giovinco has 14 goals and seven assists. He has just two strikes and four helpers in the 10 games Altidore has missed. That’s a pretty remarkable split.

Red CB Toronto
08-24-2016, 10:07 PM
Jozy is a beast and no one doubt that !! Simply great to see, well worth every penny. Makes Seba even better.

trane
08-25-2016, 01:03 PM
In the 14 games Altidore has played this year, Giovinco has 14 goals and seven assists. He has just two strikes and four helpers in the 10 games Altidore has missed. That’s a pretty remarkable split.

I am not surprised by this at all, we are better with him, I expected it.

ronzilla
08-25-2016, 01:29 PM
Jozy is a beast and no one doubt that !! Simply great to see, well worth every penny. Makes Seba even better.

It's Seba who is making his team mates better. Jozy is good, but nowhere near the same level as Giovinco.

OgtheDim
08-26-2016, 12:57 PM
I did not know he was a Dad.

http://www.torontofc.ca/post/2016/08/25/we-are-tfc-jozy-altidore


And if he wasn't playing, he'd have been an engineer.

Fort York Redcoat
08-26-2016, 01:52 PM
It's Seba who is making his team mates better. Jozy is good, but nowhere near the same level as Giovinco.

What they both can't improve the players around them?

Seba has a thread, too.

OgtheDim
08-26-2016, 02:12 PM
With a reference to Mojo Nixon

When I look out into your eyes out there,
When I look out into your faces,
You know what I see?
I see a little bit of Seba
In each and every one of you out there.

Lemme tell ya...
Weeeeeeeeeellllllll...

Seba is everywhere
Seba is everything
Seba is everybody
Seba is still the king

Man o man
What I want you to see
Is that the big S's
Inside of you and me

Seba is everywhere, man!
He's in everything.
He's in everybody...

Seba is in your jeans.
He's in your latte
Seba is in Nuttella!
Seba is in your mom!

He's in everybody.
He's in the young, the old,
the fat, the skinny,
the white, the black
the brown and the blue (but he prefers the red)
people got Seba in 'em too

Seba is in everybody out there.
Everybody's got Seba in them!
Everybody except one person that is...
Yeah, one person!
The evil opposite of Seba.
The Anti-Seba

Anti-Seba got no Seba in 'em,
lemme tell ya.

Bob McCowan has no Seba in him.

And Seba is in Rosie DiManno
but he's trying to get out, man!
He's trying to get out!
Listen up Rosie Baby!

Seba is everywhere
Seba is everything
Seba is everybody
Seba is still the king

Man o man
What I want you to see
Is that the big S's
Inside of you and me

Man, there's a lot of unexplained phenomenon
out there in the world.
Lot of things people say
What the heck's going on?

Let me tell ya!

Who built the pyramids?
SEBA!
Who built Stonehenge?
SEBA!

Yeah, man you see guys
walking down the street
pushing shopping carts
and you think they're talking to allah,
they're talking to themself.
Man, no they're talking to SEBA!
SEBA! SEBA!

You know whats going on in that Bermuda Triangle?
Down in the Bermuda Traingle
Seba needs boats.
Seba needs boats.
Seba Seba Seba
Seba Seba Seba
Seba needs boats.

Aahh! The Sailing Seba!
Captain Seba!
Commodore Seba it is.

Yeah man, you know people from outer space,
people from outer space they come up to me.
They don't look like like Doctor Spock.
They don't look like Klingons,
all that Star Trek jive.

They look like Seba.
SEBA!
Everybody in outer space looks like Seba.
Cause Seba is a perfect being.
We are all moving in perfect peace and harmony towards Sebabess

Soon all will become Seba.
Everything everywhere will be Seba.
Why do you think they call it evolution anyway?
It's really Sebaslution!
Sebaslution!

Seba is everywhere
Seba is everything
Seba is everybody
Sebai s still the king

Man o man
What I want you to see
Is that the big S's
Inside of you and me

That's right ladies and gentlemen,
The time has come!
Time has come to talk
To that little bit of Seba inside of you.

Talk to it!
Call it up!
Say "Seba, heal me!"
"Save me, Seba!"
"Make me be born again
in the perfect Seba light"

That's right!
You've got that Seba inside of ya
and he's talkin to ya
He says he wants you to play soccer!
Everybody's got to play soccer like the Atomic Ant!

Like the Atomic Ant
Get that leg going now
Get your hip too.
Not no fool Drogba hip either
Everybody!
Yeah, we're rockin now!

Seba is with us.
He's with us and he's speaking to us.
He says "Peoples!"
"Peoples!"
"Everybody!"
"Everybody got to play futball!"

Seba is everywhere
Seba is everything
Seba is everybody
Seba is still the king

Man o man
What I want you to see
Is that the big S's
Inside of you and me

Seba is everywhere
Seba is everything
Seba is everybody
Seba is still the king

Man o man
What I want you to see
Is that the big S's
Inside of you and me







***********************

If you must know...the original


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mpb4ZAAP6Z4

CBTFC
09-06-2016, 08:40 PM
Jozy puts one past the T&T keeper, great finish.

He's been in fine form this summer for club & country...keep it up jozy!

CBTFC
09-06-2016, 08:41 PM
Spoke to soon...what a pass by Pulisic to Altidore. Make that 2 goals!

Red CB Toronto
09-06-2016, 08:46 PM
Jozy with the brace tonight for the US in their WCQ.

Detroit_TFC
09-06-2016, 09:29 PM
JA looked great tonight. Bodes well for that thing that happens after the regular season games are done but before the MLS Cup game. :/

notthesun
09-06-2016, 11:29 PM
Jozy's goals:

https://streamable.com/3s0l

https://streamable.com/i5l0

koolvid12
09-07-2016, 12:43 AM
What I would give to have a player like Pulisic on our Canadian team. (He's 17 and playing for Dortmund ffs!). Hell and at this point the way our striker have been playing/finishing I'd take Jozy too!

dupont
09-07-2016, 08:23 AM
I love Jozy. I just hope he stays healthy!

C.Ronaldo
09-07-2016, 09:18 AM
Jozy's goals:

https://streamable.com/3s0l

https://streamable.com/i5l0

first one was world class

PopePouri
09-07-2016, 10:41 AM
What I would give to have a player like Pulisic on our Canadian team. (He's 17 and playing for Dortmund ffs!). Hell and at this point the way our striker have been playing/finishing I'd take Jozy too!

I love Larin. I hope the next coach figures out a way to give him the service he needs to be effective.

Floro played him on a island every game and ran him into the ground by the 70th minute.

C.Ronaldo
09-07-2016, 02:06 PM
I love Larin. I hope the next coach figures out a way to give him the service he needs to be effective.

Floro played him on a island every game and ran him into the ground by the 70th minute.

would love to see osario float some passes to him

Yohan
09-24-2016, 10:15 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Tf9Tc_WpzE

showgroundz
09-26-2016, 06:17 AM
What a legend, amazing guy.

Fort York Redcoat
04-17-2017, 10:07 AM
Jozy now tied with Amado Guevara all time on goals.

Fort York Redcoat
04-30-2017, 08:17 AM
Jozy pulls ahead of Seba All-time with that brace. Brace after Seba's brace. This is fun.

Fort York Redcoat
05-07-2017, 12:14 PM
Jozy earns the penalty and buries it to catch Seba again all time. And we're top of the table. Is this real life?

CBTFC
05-08-2017, 08:14 AM
Altidore is the Malkin to Giovinco's Crosby.

He was in beast mode the other night, and I feel we're finally seeing the best he can offer (but that's just my perspective)

MKR
05-08-2017, 08:46 AM
Jozy is pretty much always in beast mode.

samuraizero
05-23-2017, 10:43 AM
Jozy is pretty much always in beast mode.

Have to disagree here. Jozy can be a VERY lazy player. When he turns on beastmode, the difference in his play is easily noticeable.

molenshtain
05-23-2017, 04:24 PM
Have to disagree here. Jozy can be a VERY lazy player. When he turns on beastmode, the difference in his play is easily noticeable.



Jozy does an enormous amount of running to make up frankly for Seba's usual disinterest in that side of the game. He gets pulled back into midfield 5-6 a game tracking and pressuring players. He takes plays off late in close games to conserve his energy, which is understandable, But I'd never classify him as a lazy player because of that. Does more work than any #9 in the league besides like, maybe Dom Dwyer.

Richard
05-23-2017, 05:15 PM
I don't know how you can call Altidore lazy, conserving energy and not giving 100% are two different things. When he gets the ball he can go all out and muscle his way to a goal.

Lazy is sitting in the box expecting your teammates to do 90% of the work while you just tap it in, that's not how Altidore plays at all.

OgtheDim
05-23-2017, 05:42 PM
He and Seba are back and forth pulling players all over the place. Any idea that either of them are lazy is.... lazy.

C.Ronaldo
05-24-2017, 09:01 AM
I don't know how you can call Altidore lazy, conserving energy and not giving 100% are two different things. When he gets the ball he can go all out and muscle his way to a goal.

Lazy is sitting in the box expecting your teammates to do 90% of the work while you just tap it in, that's not how Altidore plays at all.


who was the hands on hips guy that use to play here? he missed the sitter 5 inches from goal

Canary10
05-24-2017, 09:09 AM
I don't know how you can call Altidore lazy, conserving energy and not giving 100% are two different things. When he gets the ball he can go all out and muscle his way to a goal.

Lazy is sitting in the box expecting your teammates to do 90% of the work while you just tap it in, that's not how Altidore plays at all.

Also not bothering to get back from an offside position then getting called offside or having to watch a good through ball zing by because he didn't get onside is lazy. He does that a lot.

He's been an amazing player for us but, I'm sorry, he is lazy at times. That said, I've never encountered a non-lazy striker, especially compared to box-to-box midfielders. ;)

Fort York Redcoat
06-18-2017, 11:02 AM
Jozy tied with Seba again all time 45.

hulkrogan
06-20-2017, 11:54 AM
When Defoe went and Altidore was coming back, I thought we were getting an overpaid striker of lesser quality.

That swap turned the entire franchise around. Jozy is just... incredible. He makes Giovinco so much better, and vice versa. I thought we didn't need to big name strikers, but this is a team that can just score its way out of problems.

ronzilla
06-20-2017, 01:01 PM
As much as I hate to say this, Defoe is a far better player than Jozy.

Jozy is a great finisher, I'll give him that, although he does very little in creativity. A total of only 9 assists in 3 seasons with TFC speaks volume.

Giovinco, on the other hand delivers in the department of goals, assists, creativity, PK's and FK's. To say that Jozy makes Giovinco a better player is almost laughable.

Im calling a spade, a spade.

Yohan
06-20-2017, 01:09 PM
Jozy creates space for Giovinco, something that Defoe cannot do. His hold up play is key for TFC offence

Canary10
06-20-2017, 01:32 PM
Really the transfer worked for both players. Defoe was excellent in his two years at Sunderland, and got his wish of being back in the national team. That would not have happened if he stayed with us. Jozy has been a key player for us, and I'd say a fan favourite now (even for me, who wasn't so thrilled at the prospect of him coming). I agree that Defoe is a better player, but he and Giovinco would not have been a good pairing at all. Like Yohan said, his ability to make space, and play with back to goal, complement Giovinco. It's a good model of a two striker system.

Stencils
06-20-2017, 02:19 PM
Jozy creates space for Giovinco, something that Defoe cannot do. His hold up play is key for TFC offence

+1

Jozy is playing his role amazingly well and is a change maker on the pitch. It's possible there's another player out there who could do that role, but he's here now DOING it. I'll take that over COULD do it any day.

hulkrogan
06-20-2017, 02:21 PM
I agree, and that's what I was getting at. Jozy + Gio > Defoe + Gio, in my opinion. Not saying Jozy is a straight up better player, but the team is way better off with him.

Jozy's attitude is sure a nice change from Defoe too.

ensco
06-20-2017, 05:54 PM
The Jozy for Defoe "trade" was an interesting way for both sides to deal with a wasted transfer fee.

Defoe wasn't coming back.

It wasn't a "trade" in any meaningful sense of the word. It could be a decade before there is another one like it, anywhere in world football.

I will take Jozy. We weren't a great team with Defoe. We are a great team with Altidore. Altidore's run late last year was the greatest performance by a TO athlete in 25 years.

Initial B
06-21-2017, 11:49 AM
This is a case where the whole is greater than the sum of the parts. Jozy is a force multiplier for Seba.

JuliquE
06-21-2017, 12:34 PM
He's been an amazing player for us but, I'm sorry, he is lazy at times.
If this is the barometer, then every player there ever was is lazy; I guarantee you that everyone cheats a little (takes a breather/gets frustrated), and even gets caught out doing so, now and again.

For me, there's little point in slapping the label on anyone that isn't extremely lazy—especially in the case of someone that's flying for us, at the min. o.0

Canary10
06-21-2017, 12:35 PM
If this is the barometer, then every player there ever was is lazy; I guarantee you that everyone cheats a little (takes a breather/gets frustrated), and even gets caught out doing so, now and again.

For me, there's little point in slapping the label on anyone that isn't extremely lazy—especially in the case of someone that's flying for us, at the min. o.0

He's a striker. Strikers are lazy.

C.Ronaldo
06-21-2017, 12:45 PM
If this is the barometer, then every player there ever was is lazy; I guarantee you that everyone cheats a little (takes a breather/gets frustrated), and even gets caught out doing so, now and again.

For me, there's little point in slapping the label on anyone that isn't extremely lazy—especially in the case of someone that's flying for us, at the min. o.0


he can be lazy some games, but even then its often he does something for 30 seconds thats wins us a game. on a bad day, he creates space, on a good day, he goes beast mode and does everything

Canary10
06-21-2017, 12:55 PM
If this is the barometer, then every player there ever was is lazy; I guarantee you that everyone cheats a little (takes a breather/gets frustrated), and even gets caught out doing so, now and again.

For me, there's little point in slapping the label on anyone that isn't extremely lazy—especially in the case of someone that's flying for us, at the min. o.0


Also you'd be really hard pressed to ever call Michael Bradley lazy under any definition. So not every player that ever was is lazy.

JuliquE
06-21-2017, 01:13 PM
He's a striker. Strikers are lazy.
Agree to disagree.



he can be lazy some games, but even then its often he does something for 30 seconds thats wins us a game. on a bad day, he creates space, on a good day, he goes beast mode and does everything
My point was that most every player has an off-game, so to speak, in which laziness is a factor, so it's of little use labelling someone as lazy, unless they're extremely so, since it comes with the territory.



Also you'd be really hard pressed to ever call Michael Bradley lazy under any definition. So not every player that ever was is lazy.
It appears you're making my point.

Bradley has been caught out, at times, trotting behind the play, when you might think he could have made up the ground. Despite this, you're right—I'd never think to call him lazy, in describing his game.

Canary10
06-21-2017, 01:15 PM
Agree to disagree.



My point was that most every player has an off-game, so to speak, in which laziness is a factor, so it's of little use labelling someone as lazy, unless they're extremely so, since it comes with the territory.



It appears you're making my point.

Bradley has been caught out, at times, trotting behind the play, when you might think he could have made up the ground. Despite this, you're right—I'd never think to call him lazy, in describing his game.


Yes, well.

C.Ronaldo
06-22-2017, 09:35 AM
Agree to disagree.



My point was that most every player has an off-game, so to speak, in which laziness is a factor, so it's of little use labelling someone as lazy, unless they're extremely so, since it comes with the territory.



It appears you're making my point.

Bradley has been caught out, at times, trotting behind the play, when you might think he could have made up the ground. Despite this, you're right—I'd never think to call him lazy, in describing his game.

hes no hand on hips Jeff Cunningham, thats for sure

Shakes McQueen
06-23-2017, 09:58 PM
The Jozy for Defoe "trade" was an interesting way for both sides to deal with a wasted transfer fee.

Defoe wasn't coming back.

It wasn't a "trade" in any meaningful sense of the word. It could be a decade before there is another one like it, anywhere in world football.

I will take Jozy. We weren't a great team with Defoe. We are a great team with Altidore. Altidore's run late last year was the greatest performance by a TO athlete in 25 years.

The Altidore acquisition was always clearly a case of a team hastily trying to make lemonade out of Defoe-shaped lemons, when it was clear Defoe wanted to go back to England.

At first it seemed like it may be a bust, but then Altidore just seemed to click at some point, and hasn't looked back. Now his unique skills are vital to our attack.

notthesun
06-23-2017, 10:10 PM
He's our most important player right now, I think.

MightyDM
06-23-2017, 10:11 PM
He's a striker. Strikers are lazy.

oi. I am a stringer. That's getting personal

JuliquE
06-24-2017, 01:21 PM
hes no hand on hips Jeff Cunningham, thats for sure
Isn't that the truth! heh

C.Ronaldo
06-26-2017, 08:56 AM
The Altidore acquisition was always clearly a case of a team hastily trying to make lemonade out of Defoe-shaped lemons, when it was clear Defoe wanted to go back to England.

At first it seemed like it may be a bust, but then Altidore just seemed to click at some point, and hasn't looked back. Now his unique skills are vital to our attack.

coach? finding the best in each of your players and utilizing it?

I remember Bradley not properly being used as well

mistercorporate
06-26-2017, 10:53 AM
We seriously need a song for Jozy! Is there one already?

molenshtain
06-26-2017, 11:26 AM
We seriously need a song for Jozy! Is there one already?

I still think the "you're defence is terrified, Jozy's on fire" one would be best. Just fits right.

mistercorporate
06-26-2017, 11:53 AM
I still think the "you're defence is terrified, Jozy's on fire" one would be best. Just fits right.

So people have already proposed songs already? Where could i see these and possibly vote? Let's get this done, the man needs more recognition!

Fort York Redcoat
06-26-2017, 11:56 AM
So people have already proposed songs already? Where could i see these and possibly vote? Let's get this done, the man needs more recognition!

We've been singing his song since his first year here.

Jozy Altidore
You know he's gonna score
We go wild, wild, wild...

to the tune of Come on feel the noize by Twisted Sister

Red4ever
06-26-2017, 11:58 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Haypxj24_Uw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Haypxj24_Uw

Jozy Altidore
You know he's gonna score
We go wild wild wild
wild wild wild

Been doing it 112 for about a year.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VwXGwLrJyMM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VwXGwLrJyMM

This would also be perfect for Jozy

Canary10
06-26-2017, 12:37 PM
We've been singing his song since his first year here.

Jozy Altidore
You know he's gonna score
We go wild, wild, wild...

to the tune of Come on feel the noize by Twisted Sister

My two year old daughter just learned that one. Don't change it please.

Red4ever
06-26-2017, 01:18 PM
That's not going anywhere. it's too good.

But we should have more than one chant for our DPs.

mistercorporate
06-26-2017, 04:20 PM
Whichever one you guys choose, please have all the supporters groups on the same page for it. I only sit in the south end and i swear i didnt even recognize that song and you never hear it on tv audio either. On the other hand, everyone can hear and remember sebastian giovinco, reds come marching in, clap-clap-boom, etc.

GBV
06-26-2017, 07:24 PM
We've been singing his song since his first year here.

Jozy Altidore
You know he's gonna score
We go wild, wild, wild...

to the tune of Come on feel the noize by Twisted Sister

Tis Quiet Riot, a Slade cover.
No, I didn't have to look that up.
Rock on. :drunk:

Fort York Redcoat
06-27-2017, 07:06 AM
Tis Quiet Riot, a Slade cover.
No, I didn't have to look that up.
Rock on. :drunk:

lol kudos man. I was alive and rockin to it in grade school but mixed my hair bands up. Mea Culpa.

OgtheDim
07-20-2017, 08:10 AM
https://twitter.com/SoccerInsider/status/887887951346122752

Insta Classic

flatpicker
07-20-2017, 09:14 AM
Ha! Too funny.

paul-collins
07-20-2017, 01:12 PM
Did anyone see him get bitten? Hope his tetanus is up to date.

ensco
07-27-2017, 06:11 AM
What a goal. The call is good, too.

https://twitter.com/totalmls/status/890400535907622912
https://twitter.com/jozyaltidore/status/890464809954680832

OgtheDim
07-27-2017, 09:07 AM
We often forget that Jozy is fluent in Espanol.

JuliquE
11-26-2017, 07:50 AM
Our guys have been going down easy lately - especially Seba. Pretty much goes for contact each time and then throws himself on the ground. Not saying there's no fouls ever, nor that it's not a natural part of how he's adjusted to other teams defending against him... but for me it's becoming more and more difficult to defend our player's actions.

On a similar note, I think it's perfectly natural to get heated/emotional during big games, and to remonstrate, or even 'whine' a little bit. It's delusional to think that players are going to remain completely calm when they're playing in that high-pressure a situation. Regardless, I'm shocked Vasquez didn't receive a yellow for getting in the ref's face after the no-goal call... absolute terrible refereeing all game, but you can't do that.

Jozy... absolute embarrassment flopping like that on Kjlestan's push. We deserved to be hated on by the entire league for that one. F**king pathetic, really. If we're trying to convert more Toronto sports fans to soccer, that is not going going to set us back for years to come...
Sorry to re-hash this discussion, from the EC first-leg match-thread; you complained of the response to this post, and, actually, I'm much more in the background, these days, for the same reason you expressed… but, this has been bothering me all week, and I felt compelled to reply.

I think where you lose people is in the vitriol with which you refer to our players. I've quoted the above, from you, but in a couple posts, well, you go out of your way to acknowledge the fact everything imaginable that could have happened to provoked Jozy, did… only to then snap on him for reacting.

People often speak about expecting professionalism, and I agree, to an extent; certainly expect more from them than I would, say, Sunday league players, but it seems some would have them composed as one might do working an office job. They're paid to work in high-octane situations and are human; these moments are inevitable, and so I think it's unfair to go off on them, like this, especially given the context of this specific case.

Such misdirected vitriol, for me, exacerbates the issue of diving and what not (urks me, as well, but I try to keep scope), as it only occurs because of poor officiating; if players are getting calls, whilst remaining on their feet, then they're not going to flop, because you're right: it's embarrassing, and many are alphas. The focus must be the ref. calling things, on the day, and the absolute hash he made of the job.

CBTFC
11-26-2017, 11:26 AM
I treat my relationship with the players like a marriage. For better or worse, through sickness and in health.

Jozy is big, strong and passionate. And I love that about him.

Until he, or any other TFC player, starts pulling Suarez/Evra level stunts, they have my back.

JoeM
11-26-2017, 09:21 PM
I treat my relationship with the players like a marriage. For better or worse, through sickness and in health.

Jozy is big, strong and passionate. And I love that about him.

Until he, or any other TFC player, starts pulling Suarez/Evra level stunts, they have my back.

I've come across some of our own fans who I would be okay with Justin Morrow karate kicking in the face. I mean, if anyone is going to pull an Evra, it should be the leftback.

CBTFC
11-30-2017, 07:23 AM
Jozy is big, strong and passionate. And I love that about him.
.

After last night, I put even more emphasis on this.

Some people want to their players to conform and fall in line like good little boys. I don't.

Love ya Jozy!

Redcoe15
11-30-2017, 06:15 PM
Love Los Toro! American fans who boo him and Bradley can now go eat a bag of huge "cream" filled penises!

ManUtd4ever
11-30-2017, 06:41 PM
Probably the most clutch performer we've ever had, and wears his heart on his sleeve.

Blindside16
12-01-2017, 02:24 AM
What a performance. Heart of a lion. I had a gut feeling when he forced himself back on the pitch the 2nd time he was going to do something special. He refused to give up on his team and was rewarded for it. I like his post match comment as well "I don't care how my ankle is I am playing the final! You are not taking that game away from me!"

PizzaEatingYeti
12-01-2017, 05:54 AM
With all the super stuff Seba is producing on the field every once in a while, I feel that Josy has been more important to this team in the most important games so far...

magmadragon
12-01-2017, 08:26 AM
Over the past few months, the players have generally been taking golf carts to their cars after the games. So few are stopping for autographs and photos. Then comes Jozy hobbling over to chat with the few of us standing around after the game. The one guy who really should be on a cart, comes by to say hi. Awesome.

Auzzy
12-01-2017, 08:44 AM
Over the past few months, the players have generally been taking golf carts to their cars after the games. So few are stopping for autographs and photos. Then comes Jozy hobbling over to chat with the few of us standing around after the game. The one guy who really should be on a cart, comes by to say hi. Awesome.

Seriously, golf carts? That's hilarious.

ochos
12-01-2017, 10:13 AM
Sorry to re-hash this discussion, from the EC first-leg match-thread; you complained of the response to this post, and, actually, I'm much more in the background, these days, for the same reason you expressed… but, this has been bothering me all week, and I felt compelled to reply.

I think where you lose people is in the vitriol with which you refer to our players. I've quoted the above, from you, but in a couple posts, well, you go out of your way to acknowledge the fact everything imaginable that could have happened to provoked Jozy, did… only to then snap on him for reacting.

People often speak about expecting professionalism, and I agree, to an extent; certainly expect more from them than I would, say, Sunday league players, but it seems some would have them composed as one might do working an office job. They're paid to work in high-octane situations and are human; these moments are inevitable, and so I think it's unfair to go off on them, like this, especially given the context of this specific case.

Such misdirected vitriol, for me, exacerbates the issue of diving and what not (urks me, as well, but I try to keep scope), as it only occurs because of poor officiating; if players are getting calls, whilst remaining on their feet, then they're not going to flop, because you're right: it's embarrassing, and many are alphas. The focus must be the ref. calling things, on the day, and the absolute hash he made of the job.

Agree to disagree. I love the guy. Love the team. Will never turn my back on them - ever. But diving is a cancer to the sport. Simple. Have I ever embellished fouls on me when I felt the other team were hacking? Sure, maybe a few times. But there is a line for me that shouldn't be crossed - feigning injury for the purposes of getting other players sent off. This is my standard, and I won't deviate from it. We're better than that.

All is forgiven. It would be impossible for Jozy to apologize about it because it would be admitting guilt, and could possibly get him in trouble. Plus, he's not a diver in general, so I don't feel like he owes anything to us. I just expect better.

And with that - LET'S GET THAT CUP!

JuliquE
12-01-2017, 11:20 AM
But diving is a cancer to the sport. Simple. Have I ever embellished fouls on me when I felt the other team were hacking? Sure, maybe a few times. But there is a line for me that shouldn't be crossed - feigning injury for the purposes of getting other players sent off. This is my standard, and I won't deviate from it. We're better than that.
This is where you lose me; Jozy was pushed (read: didn't dive), and, in his pent up frustration, went down easy, to draw attention to it.

Again, after conceding that literally everything imaginable that could have happened to provoke him, did, as well as the bold parts above, it seems strange for you to have come for him with the vitriol you did, in your initial post… but, to each his own, I suppose.

Agree to disagree, indeed (not about the cup, though).

ochos
12-01-2017, 11:29 AM
This is where you lose me; Jozy was pushed (read: didn't dive), and, in his pent up frustration, went down easy, to draw attention to it.

Again, after conceding that literally everything imaginable that could have happened to provoke him, did, as well as the bold parts above, it seems strange for you to have come for him with the vitriol you did, in your initial post… but, to each his own, I suppose.

Agree to disagree, indeed (not about the cup, though).

Jozy stepped up to his face provoking the push, then proceeded to drop like a sack of bricks. Not saying Kljestan is a saint, just saying what Jozy did was reprehensible... something I'd expect to see from a pansy in leagues where this sort of thing is more nuanced.

Go team

JuliquE
12-01-2017, 11:52 AM
Jozy stepped up to his face provoking the push, then proceeded to drop like a sack of bricks. Not saying Kljestan is a saint, just saying what Jozy did was reprehensible... something I'd expect to see from a pansy in leagues where this sort of thing is more nuanced.
Right… but, as said, you expressed understanding for some cases of embellishment, and that you agree he were hacked and otherwise provoked in many ways, that game.

For me, the context means that, whilst I actually agree with you about diving and that, in general, and am equally sickened, it's not always so black & white, and I can understand him having been at his wit's end, in this case—at least, with all the vitriol I had for NYRB, on the night, I couldn't bring myself to cuss out Altidore, for trying to give them a taste of their own medicine.

Guess I'll leave it there.

TerryTheTerror
12-02-2017, 04:27 AM
Ultimately, two wrongs don't make a right though.

JuliquE
12-02-2017, 11:04 AM
Ultimately, two wrongs don't make a right though.
Think the point were slightly more nuanced than "right or wrong."

That is to say, I agree with the above…

notthesun
12-09-2017, 08:35 PM
As far as I'm concerned Altidore wrote his name into Toronto sports lore tonight as one of the city's best playoff performers ever. 7 goals and 4 assists in 11 playoff games now, a championship-winning goal and a hair's breath from it being his second, and all around beastly performances again and again. And he did it on a bad ankle this year. God damn legend.