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Oldtimer
04-24-2016, 03:54 PM
Let's start with an article by John Molinaro:http://www.sportsnet.ca/soccer/vanney-due-lot-credit-tfcs-strong-start-season/

MightyDM
04-25-2016, 09:08 AM
Vanney has won me over. He is a completely different tactical coach this year, it's like he watched all of the TFC games he had ever coached, realized what he was doing wrong, and changed it. Plus he has instilled positional discipline in Bradley and a work rate in Jozy, both of which are significant accomplishments. Finally, he has been giving minutes to people to keep them fresh ( Williams, Mo, Chapman) or for tactical reasons ( Endoh, Morgan), which is good squad management. Well done.

Initial B
04-25-2016, 09:12 AM
Well, Vanney has had 3 transfer windows to build the type of squad he wants, so now is probably a good point to start evaluating how he's done and throw out the last two years of results. I think Vanney has always had it in him to be a decent coach, but now he has the players that are at least decent at their positions. Who would have thought just 4 personnel changes would make such a big difference to the defence? Or is that due to Vanney making an adjustment from being offence-oriented last year to defence-oriented this year?

Yohan
04-25-2016, 09:30 AM
Well, Vanney has had 3 transfer windows to build the type of squad he wants, so now is probably a good point to start evaluating how he's done and throw out the last two years of results. I think Vanney has always had it in him to be a decent coach, but now he has the players that are at least decent at their positions. Who would have thought just 4 personnel changes would make such a big difference to the defence? Or is that due to Vanney making an adjustment from being offence-oriented last year to defence-oriented this year?

Drew Moor ftw.

Ben - D.O.W.
04-25-2016, 09:30 AM
I think he's handled this road trip well, but until we see how the team plays at home I'm not ready to make a full evaluation. I will say I have always wanted him to work out (because the constant turnover clearly wasn't) and so far I'm quite hopeful.

OgtheDim
04-25-2016, 09:30 AM
The interview on Saturday seemed to indicate that the diamond / 2-3-2-1-2 that was played against Montreal is the preferred offensive oriented route for this team. Lets see how we do against teams that can clog up the middle and have fast width - i.e. Portland and Dallas.

Cashcleaner
04-25-2016, 09:57 AM
TFC has 11 points from 7 consecutive away games. I think there are few clubs in MLS today that would be able to accomplish the same or better that achievement. We've won more games than we've lost on the road and tied two matches - that's over 1.5 points per game! And while I haven't been able to catch all games from start-to-finish, I am noticing an overall improvement of the team and of some of the coaching decisions.

Vanney absolutely deserve his share of credit for how this team is shaping up. And I find it interesting what Molinaro wrote about Giovinco's role here. Despite how many goals Gio has bagged for us, nevermind attempts on net, we are not playing with with the intention of one player carrying the entire weight of the attack. We still continue to play a well-balanced game (for the most part) where everyone is expected to play their role, it just happens that we have a stellar striker who will find the back of the net when he's serviced well (IMPORTANT!) and supported. And obviously on the defensive side of things, we're basically night and day compared to last season. Very cohesive and I'm betting communication between the backline and mids are much better this season.

Up until now I've been rather on-the-fence with Vanney, but lately I've been very pleased with how this team is coming together - and winning.

ronzilla
04-25-2016, 10:08 AM
Vanneys test will come when Giovinco leaves for France.

TheGoodson
04-25-2016, 10:13 AM
Vanneys test will come when Giovinco leaves for France.

I really don't see Conte calling out Seba... They have a lot of strikers with similar skill sets and the fact they are playing in Europe will give them the edge.

Also, Seba came is as a sub in the second of two friendlies, it is not like he started. I really don't see it happening

Ultra & Proud
04-25-2016, 10:28 AM
Vanneys test will come when Giovinco leaves for France.
Even if he does, which I doubt, I think we will be okay. Last year we were in shoot outs and needed to be bailed out. When and if he goes to the Euros then I expect to see us playing a similar set up and style to what we've seen on the road. That type of play translates well when players are missing. Low scoring affairs and tight everywhere.

jloome
04-25-2016, 10:59 AM
Even if he does, which I doubt, I think we will be okay. Last year we were in shoot outs and needed to be bailed out. When and if he goes to the Euros then I expect to see us playing a similar set up and style to what we've seen on the road. That type of play translates well when players are missing. Low scoring affairs and tight everywhere.

Playing it tight was key; I was thinking about how Vanney set up against Montreal, and it was still a first-and-foremost defensive look. Our two fullbacks pretty much stayed rooted to the backline for most of the night. There was no crossover, no attempt to push huge numbers forward. It was more like "they have specialists, we have specialists, so tonight everybody plays a role." Bradley was purely defensive, Johnson was two-way linkage and defending, Oso was one-way offensive, and the back was flat, which made it nearly impossible for Montreal to find space wide, which is where they normally start moves.

ag futbol
04-25-2016, 11:13 AM
Wardrobe choices this season have been sub-par. I was really digging the 80's Miami Beach vibe last year.

molenshtain
04-25-2016, 11:18 AM
Wardrobe choices this season have been sub-par. I was really digging the 80's Miami Beach vibe last year.

Yeah, this has to be my biggest complaint. Last year was flamboyantly terrible and it was fun. This year he's gone with a lot of dull plaids - much less exciting.

MartinUtd
04-25-2016, 11:35 AM
Still not sold on him but things are looking better. I still shudder at what this team would look like without Giovinco, he's without a doubt carrying us and making Vanney look good in the process.

Sorry to be a downer, but that's my perspective.

Red CB Toronto
04-25-2016, 11:39 AM
Nothing to really complain about right now, the Reds had the big victory in Montreal and have started the season out reasonable well with all these road games.

Oldtimer
04-25-2016, 11:56 AM
Still not sold on him but things are looking better. I still shudder at what this team would look like without Giovinco, he's without a doubt carrying us and making Vanney look good in the process.

Sorry to be a downer, but that's my perspective.

Being the best defensive team in MLS has little to do with Giovinco, and a lot to do with personnel and coaching.

Without Giovinco there would probably be more 0-0 draws.

bgnewf
04-25-2016, 12:02 PM
I think its fair that we all agree on this:

We ALL want Greg Vanney to be TFC head coach at the end of the 2016 campaign

Because if he's not then its gone all to shit again.

burlington Red
04-25-2016, 12:03 PM
Not previously a Vanney fan but in fairness he has done good so far. Football has been defensive but it has needed to be, not great to watch but it is effective. Defence looks sound. I was going to say he has done excellently but considering the squad he has, he's doing what he should be doing. I know having a great squad doesn't guarantee success, it still needs direction and that is what we have so far- we also look organised which in comparison with previous yrs is a god send really. For me getting a solid keeper was massive, Moor has been that type of player we have always lacked, but right up there is playing Bradley in a defined role. He looks so much better not charging all over the pitch, the tactical discipline showed by him and Vanney on this has to be commended.
I'm not getting carried away too soon, as there will be tougher times ahead and it is a long season to face, but so far so good, long may it continue......

MartinUtd
04-25-2016, 12:04 PM
Being the best defensive team in MLS has little to do with Giovinco, and a lot to do with personnel and coaching.

Without Giovinco there would probably be more 0-0 draws.

Respectfully disagree. Having a player like Giovinco prevents a full commitment from the opposing offense. We're way less likely to be pinned in our own box like years before when we've got such a potent counter attack threat. That's not Vanney's set up either, it's an outstanding individual that's putting the fear in the opposition.

ManUtd4ever
04-25-2016, 12:08 PM
Much of the credit for our improved defensive play obviously has to go to Bez for acquiring Irwin, Moor, Johnson, and Beitashour in the off season.

However, I give full props to Vanney for adapting his tactical approach on several occasions already this season based on the opponent and the player personnel available to him.

Red4ever
04-25-2016, 12:20 PM
Respectfully disagree. Having a player like Giovinco prevents a full commitment from the opposing offense. We're way less likely to be pinned in our own box like years before when we've got such a potent counter attack threat. That's not Vanney's set up either, it's an outstanding individual that's putting the fear in the opposition.

This.

I doubt he's here in 3 years.

ag futbol
04-25-2016, 12:33 PM
We had giovinco last year too... The defense was far more suspect.

Of course having a great attacking threat matters but give credit where it's due. The backline has been outstanding this year.

Where would most teams in this league be without their best player?

mistercorporate
04-25-2016, 12:40 PM
We had giovinco last year too... The defense was far more suspect.

Of course having a great attacking threat matters but give credit where it's due. The backline has been outstanding this year.

Where would most teams in this league be without their best player?

Good point. Our defence is qualitatively and collectively up a notch while our midfield is finally organized. We found a way to make the most of Bradley, of getting Jozy and Gio working together offensively and defensively, and Will Johnson is like having two Bradleys on the pitch! The man is a fighter! Tim Leiweke added ambition to our team and now guys like Irwin, Moor and Will are choosing to come here because they see something they want to be a part of. Even having the US Captain on our team benefits us since Klinsmann will be watching him closely and by extension will get to see these new guys perform, bettering their chances for a callup.

Oldtimer
04-25-2016, 12:41 PM
Respectfully disagree. Having a player like Giovinco prevents a full commitment from the opposing offense. We're way less likely to be pinned in our own box like years before when we've got such a potent counter attack threat. That's not Vanney's set up either, it's an outstanding individual that's putting the fear in the opposition.

That's fine... this game is a game of opinions! I like your respectful style. :scarf:

It could be argued at Altidore's hold up play has more of a direct effect on opponents' defense than Giovinco's because he stretches and distorts their shape.

I actually believe that you build from behind, and defense is important in this league. If you look at RSL when they reached the CCL final in 2011 it was not based as much on Saborio's offensive play as it was team defending. That's what I'm seeing in the current TFC. But that's my opinion. :)

notthesun
04-25-2016, 12:42 PM
Respectfully disagree. Having a player like Giovinco prevents a full commitment from the opposing offense. We're way less likely to be pinned in our own box like years before when we've got such a potent counter attack threat. That's not Vanney's set up either, it's an outstanding individual that's putting the fear in the opposition.

Yet last year Giovinco played every game but we still had the tied-league worst defense?

Oldtimer is correct. Giovinco has little to do with our improved defense. It's down to Bez's acquisitions in the off-season, and tactical adjustments from Vanney (making Bradley a full-time defensive mid in particular).

C.Ronaldo
04-25-2016, 12:44 PM
The interview on Saturday seemed to indicate that the diamond / 2-3-2-1-2 that was played against Montreal is the preferred offensive oriented route for this team. Lets see how we do against teams that can clog up the middle and have fast width - i.e. Portland and Dallas.

someone here told me we wont see the diamond ever again.

I expect some crow eating:)

ronzilla
04-25-2016, 12:56 PM
That's fine... this game is a game of opinions! I like your respectful style. :scarf:

It could be argued at Altidore's hold up play has more of a direct effect on opponents' defense than Giovinco's because he stretches and distorts their shape.

I actually believe that you build from behind, and defense is important in this league. If you look at RSL when they reached the CCL final in 2011 it was not based as much on Saborio's offensive play as it was team defending. That's what I'm seeing in the current TFC. But that's my opinion. :)


Dear God, you can't be serious. :facepalm:

ronzilla
04-25-2016, 12:59 PM
Still not sold on him but things are looking better. I still shudder at what this team would look like without Giovinco, he's without a doubt carrying us and making Vanney look good in the process.

Sorry to be a downer, but that's my perspective.

Somebody buy this man a beer.

Oldtimer
04-25-2016, 01:16 PM
Dear God, you can't be serious. :facepalm:

I'm just playing the devil's advocate. g:D that's why I phrased it the way that I did.

Oldtimer
04-25-2016, 01:17 PM
Yet last year Giovinco played every game but we still had the tied-league worst defense?

Oldtimer is correct. Giovinco has little to do with our improved defense. It's down to Bez's acquisitions in the off-season, and tactical adjustments from Vanney (making Bradley a full-time defensive mid in particular).

Good point about Bradley.

Red4ever
04-25-2016, 01:35 PM
Yet last year Giovinco played every game but we still had the tied-league worst defense?

Oldtimer is correct. Giovinco has little to do with our improved defense. It's down to Bez's acquisitions in the off-season, and tactical adjustments from Vanney (making Bradley a full-time defensive mid in particular).

Goals conceded don't tell the whole story if you are forced to play a different style to mitigate damage.

Good line + no outlet = shaky team
Bad line + MVP outlet = shaky team
Bad line + No outlet = Fucked
Good line + MVP outlet = Well, you understand.

It could be (gasp) a combination of things.

notthesun
04-25-2016, 03:11 PM
Goals conceded don't tell the whole story if you are forced to play a different style to mitigate damage.

Good line + no outlet = shaky team
Bad line + MVP outlet = shaky team
Bad line + No outlet = Fucked
Good line + MVP outlet = Well, you understand.

It could be (gasp) a combination of things.

It's still over-emphasizing Giovinco's impact on the defense. I mean, we added a box-to-box midfielder, are now playing with a dedicated DM, and outright replaced half the back line and the keeper. That's just clearly been the most important factor.

Giovinco was a poor outlet in the Colorado and SKC games, where we were playing long balls to relieve pressure and he obviously couldn't take them down. But the defense was still solid in both those games. Colorado scored when we were still trying to re-organize after the red card and SKC only scored because of Toledo.

Do teams maybe hold a guy or two back to keep an eye on Giovinco when they're pressing? Yeah, sure. But that's like 10% of why our defense is so improved compared to the reasons mentioned above.

Oldtimer
04-25-2016, 03:34 PM
For a case study, Drogba is of equivalent level to Giovinco. He is always dangerous, creates chances out of nothing. Give him space and he'll score! Pair him with Piatti and he's devastating. Yet TFC managed to shut him down. What's the difference? It has to come down to personnel and coaching. Vanney's strategy was excellent. All of our defensive players stepped up.

trane
04-25-2016, 04:04 PM
I have to give Vanney credit. It took him a while, but he is finally playing the way, I thought we should be playing. Focus on organization, defense and specified roles, and let our tallent take care of the offense. We keep doing this all year, with the necessary adjustments game in and game out, and we should go far.

T-boy
04-25-2016, 05:23 PM
It just goes to show what happens when you stick to a plan for a couple of seasons and stick to a squad and build on it!

mistercorporate
04-25-2016, 05:34 PM
I really hope we don't rest on our laurels though, all teams are adding to and improving their rosters. The sooner we find an upgrade to the likes of Delgado or help role players like that to improve sufficiently, the better.

ag futbol
04-25-2016, 07:15 PM
It just goes to show what happens when you stick to a plan for a couple of seasons and stick to a squad and build on it!
Well.... The person you're entrusting your team to needs to have at least some idea what they are doing. I doubt half the guys we've hired previously could do anything with a world of stability.

Still surprised at the lengths people are going not to give the coach credit. I'm not the biggest fan but let's call it what it is here. Heck, Molinaro was very skeptical of Vanny in preseason and he's come around to give him praise.

MightyDM
04-25-2016, 07:24 PM
Respectfully disagree. Having a player like Giovinco prevents a full commitment from the opposing offense. We're way less likely to be pinned in our own box like years before when we've got such a potent counter attack threat. That's not Vanney's set up either, it's an outstanding individual that's putting the fear in the opposition.

We had Giovinco last year. Just sayin'

MightyDM
04-25-2016, 07:28 PM
I have to give Vanney credit. It took him a while, but he is finally playing the way, I thought we should be playing. Focus on organization, defense and specified roles, and let our tallent take care of the offense. We keep doing this all year, with the necessary adjustments game in and game out, and we should go far.

Excellent analysis.

BelfastBoy
04-25-2016, 07:29 PM
For a case study, Drogba is of equivalent level to Giovinco. He is always dangerous, creates chances out of nothing. Give him space and he'll score! Pair him with Piatti and he's devastating. Yet TFC managed to shut him down. What's the difference? It has to come down to personnel and coaching. Vanney's strategy was excellent. All of our defensive players stepped up.

Drogba is on his last legs, while Giovinco comparatively is just a young lad of 29.

MartinUtd
04-25-2016, 07:45 PM
We had Giovinco last year. Just sayin'

We also had a rotating gong show at CB and fullback on whatever side was opposite to Morrow. I'm pretty sure it's Bez that has addressed those obvious issues... still not sure if Vanney brings anything to the table.

ensco
04-25-2016, 07:48 PM
I never thought he should be fired after 8 games in any scenario, I think Manning made a mistake with that 8 point thing, and got lucky with it. No coach can "deliver" x points in 8 games. You can win games you should lose, and vice versa.

This is a veteran team, that has the highest payroll of any team in MLS, that should perform at this level.

I respect Vanney for not messing it up.

I don't really like the way the team's been playing, until this last game in Montreal. So I'd like to see where we are at the midway point before voting.

Oldtimer
04-25-2016, 07:51 PM
Drogba is on his last legs, while Giovinco comparatively is just a young lad of 29.

Look at his stats. Last legs or not, he is punishing teams when he does play.

MightyDM
04-25-2016, 08:04 PM
I never thought he should be fired after 8 games in any scenario, I think Manning made a mistake with that 8 point thing, and got lucky with it. No coach can "deliver" x points in 8 games. You can win games you should lose, and vice versa.

This is a veteran team, that has the highest payroll of any team in MLS, that should perform at this level.

I respect Vanney for not messing it up.

I don't really like the way the team's been playing, until this last game in Montreal. So I'd like to see where we are at the midway point before voting.

thats fair. But my point earlier, put differently, is that last years Vanney would have not gotten the potential out of this years team. For example, Altidore and Bradley are vastly more disciplined and far more effective from a team perspective than last year. Vanney gets at least some credit for that.

yes, there will be tests to come, but he has showed more to me this year than I ever expected, particularly after the two losses against Montreal when he showed no tactical sense or understanding of the weaknesses of his players. It's like a whole new person.

ensco
04-25-2016, 08:24 PM
thats fair. But my point earlier, put differently, is that last years Vanney would have not gotten the potential out of this years team. For example, Altidore and Bradley are vastly more disciplined and far more effective from a team perspective than last year. Vanney gets at least some credit for that.

yes, there will be tests to come, but he has showed more to me this year than I ever expected, particularly after the two losses against Montreal when he showed no tactical sense or understanding of the weaknesses of his players. It's like a whole new person.

But for John Terry slipping while taking a PK, Avram Grant would have won the Champions League.

I have learned to be very careful about causality in life. There needs to be a narrative, a qualitative component.

I agree with those who say that Saturday might have been the most complete TFC game ever. Give me a few more of those, and I'll vote for a big contract for Vanney.

MightyDM
04-25-2016, 08:41 PM
But for John Terry slipping while taking a PK, Avram Grant would have won the Champions League.

I have learned to be very careful about causality in life. There needs to be a narrative, a qualitative component.

I agree with those who say that Saturday might have been the most complete TFC game ever. Give me a few more of those, and I'll vote for a big contract for Vanney.

i am totally with you, Ensco. But before yesterday, SKC, and the Energy drinks, I seriously wondered whether Vanney had even the basic skills to be a manager in this league. Those three games showed he has been capable of significant improvement.

plus the team is a pleasure to watch, if you like competent grinding soccer. Which I do. It's enough to take me for the total
sceptic to the cautiously optimistic.

ensco
04-25-2016, 09:03 PM
^I did get the feeling against Montreal that we were playing defensively with real purpose, staying tight and looking for the quick transition, as opposed to just bunkering 10 men behind the ball.

ronzilla
04-25-2016, 09:11 PM
Look at his stats. Last legs or not, he is punishing teams when he does play.

Any club would choose Seba over drugba in a heartbeat. It's not even an argument.

jabbronies
04-25-2016, 09:31 PM
I never thought he should be fired after 8 games in any scenario, I think Manning made a mistake with that 8 point thing, and got lucky with it. No coach can "deliver" x points in 8 games. You can win games you should lose, and vice versa.

This is a veteran team, that has the highest payroll of any team in MLS, that should perform at this level.

I respect Vanney for not messing it up.

I don't really like the way the team's been playing, until this last game in Montreal. So I'd like to see where we are at the midway point before voting.

I don't understand what you are getting at with the bolded statement.
8 points in 8 games in MLS with one of the highest pay roles in the league should be very doable...which is what it seems like you are saying in your following statement.
So why was it a mistake for Manning to make that commitment?

ensco
04-25-2016, 09:37 PM
I don't understand what you are getting at with the bolded statement.
8 points in 8 games in MLS with one of the highest pay roles in the league should be very doable...which is what it seems like you are saying in your following statement.
So why was it a mistake for Manning to make that commitment?

Too small a sample. A good team can easily fail to get 8 points in 8 road games. A bad team could get 8 points without deserving it. Plus the context (injuries, things not known publicly) could matter a lot.

It's a moot point, Manning skated it, but I would have been upset had Manning canned Vanney after 8 games, and not because I love Vanney.

Really, you never see this, no leader should ever do this to a manager. It's not the right way to run the business. As I respect Manning and his managerial resume, I actually think/hope it was just a tactic used to create urgency with the players, and Manning never intended to fire Vanney regardless of how the season started, and if so, I hope he told Vanney that from the beginning.

jloome
04-26-2016, 05:28 AM
someone here told me we wont see the diamond ever again.

I expect some crow eating:)

Oh, you get used to it. I was told not a month ago that Mo Babouli had "no chance" of making a first team impact this season. I suppose my weekly prediction rate alone is probably somewhere south of abysmal!

jloome
04-26-2016, 05:35 AM
Too small a sample. A good team can easily fail to get 8 points in 8 road games. A bad team could get 8 points without deserving it. Plus the context (injuries, things not known publicly) could matter a lot.

It's a moot point, Manning skated it, but I would have been upset had Manning canned Vanney after 8 games, and not because I love Vanney.

Really, you never see this, no leader should ever do this to a manager. It's not the right way to run the business. As I respect Manning and his managerial resume, I actually think/hope it was just a tactic used to create urgency with the players, and Manning never intended to fire Vanney regardless of how the season started, and if so, I hope he told Vanney that from the beginning.

He's probably telling him it now, after Bradley's quote basically promoting Greg, which we've never seen before.

It's too early to say he's a great coach as we're just hitting where we're supposed to be with this lineup. But I'm optimistic; once given the right personnel, we've looked the better team in really all but one game this season, and even in that game it didn't help having a player wrongfully sent off ten minutes in.

Given all the pieces we have now, I'm a little worried that Herc Gomez was sent packing given that he and Vanney are supposed to be tight, but his productive history as a striker is somewhat overstated in MLS. It'll be interesting to me to see how he does if Giovinco is out for a few games or gone to WCQ and we have to change up our tactical look to suit personnel, rather than addressing our opponent's likely strengths and weaknesses.

KurtLarSUN
04-26-2016, 06:42 AM
This is why I've been preaching patience since the end of the 2014 season, when Vanney took over and the team was poor.

Toronto FC was bad. Among the worst in the league. It was always going to take at least two full seasons to dump bloated deals and get in some quality pieces.

Vanney has created a culture that didn't exist under Nelsen/Winter ...

The players trust and respect him. He arguably works just as hard or harder than all of them.

What I will say is the lack of depth in the attack is worrisome, but most teams in this league have deficiencies. Toronto's is a lack of strikers.

There's something being overlooked, however. Something that could be putting pressure on president Bill Manning. I'll have more on this during the summer, potentially.

Larson

trane
04-26-2016, 07:19 AM
It just goes to show what happens when you stick to a plan for a couple of seasons and stick to a squad and build on it!

Listen, the team seems to be on track right now, but it really did not have to take this long to implement the present system.

Oldtimer
04-26-2016, 07:28 AM
There's something being overlooked, however. Something that could be putting pressure on president Bill Manning. I'll have more on this during the summer, potentially.

Larson

Talk about a teaser! You know we'll all be waiting for whatever you write on the team.

Kaz
04-26-2016, 07:43 AM
We are actually much better with both Gio and Jozy on the pitch.

The combo forces a defense to not swarm a single player because though he is inconsistent Altidore is still a threat.


We swarmed Drogba in Montreal, at one point you had 4 players around him. Other teams do similar things to Gio where you may have 1 or 2 guys on him at all times. We are scoring fewer goals in part because this year teams have stop Giovincio strategies, and in part we don't have Bradley on the attack. Which is actually a Worry that we don't have enough playmaking up front when using Bradley as a DM.

In the first 7 games last season our Goal scorers were

Altidore x4
Giovinco x4 (3 assists)
Findley
Cheyrou (3 assists)
Jackson

11 total


This year

Giovinco x6 (2 assists)
Delgado
Perquis

8 Total

Though we are letting in many fewer goals, or offense is much less a team effort and more.. give Seba the ball and hope for the best while we bunker down. This is directly due to Vanney's win by 1 goal or tie strategy. It has paid off point wise but has actually lead to both loses. In fact in our last 5 games we have only scored 4 goals. Last season there was only 1 game in the opening road trip were we didn't score and we scored 2 or more goals in 4 of the 7.

We still need to be able to score. Our offensive form has likely cost us 5 points, we really do need to find a balance. The sky isn't falling but if we lose Seba and Jozy for stretches where is our offense? If we lose Bradley where is our defense? All is not Roses and Gummie Bears. We are 15th in the league in Goals scored right now. We basically went from nearly the top scoring team and the team with the most goals against, to the team with the least goals against but nearly the least goals scored. Both can result in barely making the playoffs as it means every game is going to be a nail biter.

PopePouri
04-26-2016, 10:29 AM
I like that we started with a default 4-3-3 and then slowly transition to a 4-4-2 diamond as we get closer to home. The diamond is actually a variation to the 4-3-3 so Vanney was extremely smart with the team setup in preseason.

Now I understand the Endoh aquisition a bit better as a hardworking shuttler. I also see players playing in their preferred spots like Oso at 10, Johnson as a shuttler, Bradley at 6 and then Seba and Altidore as forwards.

Obviously forward is a problem of depth but Herc's contract comes off the books in June. If we trade a defender, that should give us enough space to bring in someone in time for the Euro.

Jack
04-26-2016, 10:45 AM
We are actually much better with both Gio and Jozy on the pitch.

The combo forces a defense to not swarm a single player because though he is inconsistent Altidore is still a threat.


We swarmed Drogba in Montreal, at one point you had 4 players around him. Other teams do similar things to Gio where you may have 1 or 2 guys on him at all times. We are scoring fewer goals in part because this year teams have stop Giovincio strategies, and in part we don't have Bradley on the attack. Which is actually a Worry that we don't have enough playmaking up front when using Bradley as a DM.

In the first 7 games last season our Goal scorers were

Altidore x4
Giovinco x4 (3 assists)
Findley
Cheyrou (3 assists)
Jackson

11 total


This year

Giovinco x6 (2 assists)
Delgado
Perquis

8 Total

Though we are letting in many fewer goals, or offense is much less a team effort and more.. give Seba the ball and hope for the best while we bunker down. This is directly due to Vanney's win by 1 goal or tie strategy. It has paid off point wise but has actually lead to both loses. In fact in our last 5 games we have only scored 4 goals. Last season there was only 1 game in the opening road trip were we didn't score and we scored 2 or more goals in 4 of the 7.

We still need to be able to score. Our offensive form has likely cost us 5 points, we really do need to find a balance. The sky isn't falling but if we lose Seba and Jozy for stretches where is our offense? If we lose Bradley where is our defense? All is not Roses and Gummie Bears. We are 15th in the league in Goals scored right now. We basically went from nearly the top scoring team and the team with the most goals against, to the team with the least goals against but nearly the least goals scored. Both can result in barely making the playoffs as it means every game is going to be a nail biter.
This is a fair assessment, but I would argue that it is a great road strategy. Last year, we scored a lot of goals, but we had the worst defense in the league (or close to it). I'll take less scoring if it means more winning.

Areathrasher
04-26-2016, 10:48 AM
Obviously forward is a problem of depth but Herc's contract comes off the books in June. If we trade a defender, that should give us enough space to bring in someone in time for the Euro.

If they want cover in for the Euros and Copa they will need to bring whoever that is before the primary transfer window closes on May11th.

Euros are June 10th - July 10th
Copa is June 3- June 26th

Herc's contract comes off the books end of June.
Secondary transfer window where TFC should have more budget flexibility opens on July 4th

Kaz
04-26-2016, 11:09 AM
This is a fair assessment, but I would argue that it is a great road strategy. Last year, we scored a lot of goals, but we had the worst defense in the league (or close to it). I'll take less scoring if it means more winning.

I don't disagree beyond that all the other teams in the league have spent 8 weeks building attacking chemistry, while we have been playing a very defensive form a football.. not Preki Ball but still very defensive. It can work, so long as we don't loose any pieces. A injury her and a suspension there and we can fall apart because we aren't building that chemistry upfront. We have seen that with missed chances, and miscommunication.

My hope is that it gets better... however we are getting close to a set of games where we are going to lose likely both our primary strikers.. It would be nice to find a balance. Of course teams in this league play very differently at home than away, So that may change once we get home more.. like I say the Sky isn't falling but it isn't all Roses and Gummie Bears. There are things I'm concerned about, which may fade away by the end of May or may be full worry by the end of June.

This season will show what Vanney is capable off. He has everyone he could want really (minus striker depth) we need to be sitting in the top 3 of the east this year for this team to be a success. All that being said. I'm really pleased with the start of this season point wise.. I just wish they were a little hungry offensively. There is a balance that can be struck. We are supposed to have a League MVP and Golden Boot winner, and nearly the guy with the top assists last year. we should be more of an offensive threat. It is a concern.

C.Ronaldo
04-26-2016, 11:36 AM
I don't disagree beyond that all the other teams in the league have spent 8 weeks building attacking chemistry, while we have been playing a very defensive form a football.. not Preki Ball but still very defensive. It can work, so long as we don't loose any pieces. A injury her and a suspension there and we can fall apart because we aren't building that chemistry upfront. We have seen that with missed chances, and miscommunication.

My hope is that it gets better... however we are getting close to a set of games where we are going to lose likely both our primary strikers.. It would be nice to find a balance. Of course teams in this league play very differently at home than away, So that may change once we get home more.. like I say the Sky isn't falling but it isn't all Roses and Gummie Bears. There are things I'm concerned about, which may fade away by the end of May or may be full worry by the end of June.

This season will show what Vanney is capable off. He has everyone he could want really (minus striker depth) we need to be sitting in the top 3 of the east this year for this team to be a success. All that being said. I'm really pleased with the start of this season point wise.. I just wish they were a little hungry offensively. There is a balance that can be struck. We are supposed to have a League MVP and Golden Boot winner, and nearly the guy with the top assists last year. we should be more of an offensive threat. It is a concern.


weve had injuries here and there.
jozy
moore sick
endoh hurt
cheyrou red card / hurt
oasrio hurt

and we still did well.


If Morrow steps it up to his usual self, Osario plays as creatviely as he did last game and we find a winger I think we will do damn well.

Plus Jozys goals are coming, I sense he will hit his stride soon

barticusz
04-26-2016, 11:36 AM
7 Weeks in... 7 straight road games and one more to go... and we're sitting first place in the power rankings. Anyone else think that that was going to happen?

I always supported Vanney in getting time to work with this team. He needed at least 3 years to be properly judged. He has done very very well so far this year, and he's gotten this group of guys playing as a team, believing in themselves and each other.

trane
04-26-2016, 05:00 PM
Vanney is getting it done right now. BUT the fact that it took him three years to get a basic system going, does not mean that he needed three years to do so, and that he should have been given three years. He should have been implement the system much earlier, and he could have been justifiably been fired by the middle of last season if not earlier.

No football coach unless we are talking about a team being build around young talent needs three years.

MightyDM
04-26-2016, 06:27 PM
This is why I've been preaching patience since the end of the 2014 season, when Vanney took over and the team was poor.

Toronto FC was bad. Among the worst in the league. It was always going to take at least two full seasons to dump bloated deals and get in some quality pieces.

Vanney has created a culture that didn't exist under Nelsen/Winter ...

The players trust and respect him. He arguably works just as hard or harder than all of them.




we cannot know what it was like under Nelsen for the players, although it appeared to me that he commanded respect because of his experience, but I think it's a bit unfair to imply that he brought in the bloated contracts that Bez had to clean out. He was cleaning out contracts too, and the team he started with was pretty basic skill wise.

also, Vanneys lack of tactical adjustments in the Montreal games at the end of last season have nothing to do with culture or contracts - it was on him. He never adjusted players or tactics once Montreal started attacking down the left, and he could have done both. That's why his significant improvement in tactics this year is so noticeable and welcome.

OgtheDim
04-26-2016, 06:39 PM
...No football coach unless we are talking about a team being build around young talent needs three years.

Its actually been less then two. Last year was his first full season. This is just about the time where we should be seeing significant improvement.


For an example of who also is on the hot seat in MLS having to prove themselves- Maestroni, Heath, Coyle, Curtin


The first year guys like Biello, Vierra and that guy in Chicago? They will have a longer leash (Vierra will be given 1.5 years).


Pretty much every coach gets 2 seasons of preseason and then they have to go somewhere if they havn't already.

Onyx
04-26-2016, 07:29 PM
This is why I've been preaching patience since the end of the 2014 season, when Vanney took over and the team was poor.

Toronto FC was bad. Among the worst in the league. It was always going to take at least two full seasons to dump bloated deals and get in some quality pieces.

Vanney has created a culture that didn't exist under Nelsen/Winter ...

The players trust and respect him. He arguably works just as hard or harder than all of them.

What I will say is the lack of depth in the attack is worrisome, but most teams in this league have deficiencies. Toronto's is a lack of strikers.

There's something being overlooked, however. Something that could be putting pressure on president Bill Manning. I'll have more on this during the summer, potentially.

Larson

maybe the fact that they are losing C$21 million per year and can't keep losing that kind of money. Now some of that is C$ related and out of ML$Es control. But its an issue when they just spent $140m on a stadium and when the argos come in year 1 and look like they will make a couple mil at worst (plus another $8-9mil they make on the grey cup) and will probably make $5m+ on outdoor hockey game, there must be pressure to operate profitability especially when the top MLS clubs last year were some of the worst spenders.

I see Jozy and the general gone for sure after this year. Just enjoy this year folks.

tiberius
04-26-2016, 08:51 PM
7 Weeks in... 7 straight road games and one more to go... and we're sitting first place in the power rankings. Anyone else think that that was going to happen? ...



So what - a pretty good streak on the road - whoopi doo. The proof of the pudding is the first half dozen HOME games. If they dominate, then I am a belieber - top 3 all the way. If they foul the nest in the first few games, then we are back to same old, same old. I want them to win, but they MUST deliver at home - right way - no bullshit - no injury excuses - no blaming the ref. Four wins out of six. Otherwise chevy396 have at it - I have been too traumatized from 9 years of Bullshit to be drawn in too soon. It is what they do at home that matters and they have done sweet dick all at home - yet.

Ivy
04-26-2016, 09:09 PM
So what - a pretty good streak on the road - whoopi doo. The proof of the pudding is the first half dozen HOME games. If they dominate, then I am a belieber - top 3 all the way. If they foul the nest in the first few games, then we are back to same old, same old. I want them to win, but they MUST deliver at home - right way - no bullshit - no injury excuses - no blaming the ref. Four wins out of six. Otherwise chevy396 have at it - I have been too traumatized from 9 years of Bullshit to be drawn in too soon. It is what they do at home that matters and they have done sweet dick all at home - yet.
baby, baby, baaabyyyyy, uhhhhhhhhh

OgtheDim
04-26-2016, 09:26 PM
maybe the fact that they are losing C$21 million per year and can't keep losing that kind of money. Now some of that is C$ related and out of ML$Es control. But its an issue when they just spent $140m on a stadium and when the argos come in year 1 and look like they will make a couple mil at worst (plus another $8-9mil they make on the grey cup) and will probably make $5m+ on outdoor hockey game, there must be pressure to operate profitability especially when the top MLS clubs last year were some of the worst spenders.

I see Jozy and the general gone for sure after this year. Just enjoy this year folks.


a) Argos don't make money operationally, which is true for every team outside of Regina, and with not that big a season ticket base, it remains to be seen if the TV money is enough for them to be profitable. Yes, the Grey Cup makes money but that's not really an Argo thing.

b) They can't sell players for cash - neither of those players are going anywhere

c) the DP salaries arn't that big a thing for MLSE

d) that $21 million figure is disputed


What this has to do with Vanney is :noidea:

greatwhitenorf
04-27-2016, 03:51 AM
maybe the fact that they are losing C$21 million per year and can't keep losing that kind of money. Now some of that is C$ related and out of ML$Es control. But its an issue when they just spent $140m on a stadium and when the argos come in year 1 and look like they will make a couple mil at worst (plus another $8-9mil they make on the grey cup) and will probably make $5m+ on outdoor hockey game, there must be pressure to operate profitability especially when the top MLS clubs last year were some of the worst spenders.

I see Jozy and the general gone for sure after this year. Just enjoy this year folks.

MOD EDIT: Personal attack. Not necessary. Life marches forward. ~Shakes

Jack
04-27-2016, 09:05 AM
Vanney is getting it done right now. BUT the fact that it took him three years to get a basic system going, does not mean that he needed three years to do so, and that he should have been given three years. He should have been implement the system much earlier, and he could have been justifiably been fired by the middle of last season if not earlier.

No football coach unless we are talking about a team being build around young talent needs three years.
He's had his system in place since the beginning, but he's tweaked it and worked on it ever since. He inherited a bit of a mess in his first half-season as interim manager. Then they started to fix things during his first full season. This is his second full season and they look pretty good. That's a quick turnaround from shit-show to (potential) contender, in my eyes.

This league has a decent history of coaches learning on the job and improving rapidly. I think Vanney has shown all the signs of moving along that same path. We've seen improvement from him during his whole time here and we've seen improvement in our team, as well. The players believe in him and his system, they are playing well and he is getting better with experience. I think it's a good formula for MLS. We just don't have a depth of a manager/coach pool that can come in here and know the league, the style, the roster limitations and the travel schedule. What TFC is doing with Vanney is a proven strategy in our league, so I'm all for it. The guy is making strides. I don't think it's a good idea to fire someone who has shown constant improvement throughout his tenure.

jabbronies
04-27-2016, 09:26 AM
Too small a sample. A good team can easily fail to get 8 points in 8 road games. A bad team could get 8 points without deserving it. Plus the context (injuries, things not known publicly) could matter a lot.

It's a moot point, Manning skated it, but I would have been upset had Manning canned Vanney after 8 games, and not because I love Vanney.

Really, you never see this, no leader should ever do this to a manager. It's not the right way to run the business. As I respect Manning and his managerial resume, I actually think/hope it was just a tactic used to create urgency with the players, and Manning never intended to fire Vanney regardless of how the season started, and if so, I hope he told Vanney that from the beginning.


Ya i agree - firing Vanney based on the "8pts" would be short sighted. But I don't mind him laying it down and aiming for that number. Wasn't an absurd goal by any means IMO.

barticusz
04-27-2016, 12:08 PM
Vanney is getting it done right now. BUT the fact that it took him three years to get a basic system going, does not mean that he needed three years to do so, and that he should have been given three years. He should have been implement the system much earlier, and he could have been justifiably been fired by the middle of last season if not earlier.

No football coach unless we are talking about a team being build around young talent needs three years.

............. I'm sorry but wasn't the problem that we didn't have the right players? We're back to the diamond the system he wanted, with high pressure, and possession... but now we've got the personnel that can play defense and work as a team. He's been greatly influential in getting the players to all buy into the working hard mentality and working as one. Name me all the examples of head coaches that have come into MLS and have had success right from the get go?

ronzilla
04-27-2016, 12:58 PM
Vanney wanted the 4-3-3 and it was an utter failure. I think Seba was fed up and had a nice long chat with Vanney to get this team heading into the right direction.

molenshtain
04-27-2016, 01:09 PM
Vanney wanted the 4-3-3 and it was an utter failure. I think Seba was fed up and had a nice long chat with Vanney to get this team heading into the right direction.

Or, Altidore came back and we needed a lineup that integrated the both of them without sacrificing a lot on the defensive side. 4-3-3 also wasn't an utter failure. We'll probably see it more later in the season at home when the team get's more comfortable.

Pint
04-27-2016, 01:18 PM
Our 4-3-3 was essentially a 4-5-1 most of the time

molenshtain
04-27-2016, 01:20 PM
Our 4-3-3 was essentially a 4-5-1 most of the time

For all intents and purposes they're basically always the same thing. The Dutch are the only ones who ever truly play a proper 4-3-3

ronzilla
04-27-2016, 01:26 PM
Our 4-3-3 was essentially a 4-5-1 most of the time


Yes, it was 4-5-1 while defending and then sprung into 4-3-3 in attack. The team was pinned back for most of the game with this formation.

Alonso
04-27-2016, 05:31 PM
Wardrobe choices this season have been sub-par. I was really digging the 80's Miami Beach vibe last year.


Yeah I was hoping "Miami Vanney" as a nick name would stick. But he's not doing the Miami vice thing anymore it seems.

TFC/Everton
04-27-2016, 07:21 PM
Nobody has seen the books so nobody knows how much we are losing.

Losing $21M CAD annually seems high, but depending on the long-term stadium repayment structure, it is possible.

Things that need to happen for TFC to continue to pay for three of the highest priced DPs:

We need to average 25k - 28k per game.

Win the Canadian Championship and get into champions league.

We need a playoff run. IMO, Eastern Conference Finals are the minimum to justify the highest payroll in MLS for three straight years.

More people will watch playoff games on TV. TFC vs. IMFC had very respectable ratings and if we make a run, it could get even better.

Playoffs will also mean increased sponsorship, increased ticket sales in the following year, increased merchandise sales, etc.

If at least some of these things don't happen, the club will have to cut back on expenditures.

BelfastBoy
04-27-2016, 09:20 PM
Maybe this is the year they learn you can win by picking up the Moors, Will Johnsons, Clint Irwins of the league and then spend big on one forward for a few goals.

Ultra & Proud
04-27-2016, 09:49 PM
Nobody has seen the books so nobody knows how much we are losing.

Losing $21M CAD annually seems high, but depending on the long-term stadium repayment structure, it is possible.

Things that need to happen for TFC to continue to pay for three of the highest priced DPs:

We need to average 25k - 28k per game.

Win the Canadian Championship and get into champions league.

We need a playoff run. IMO, Eastern Conference Finals are the minimum to justify the highest payroll in MLS for three straight years.

More people will watch playoff games on TV. TFC vs. IMFC had very respectable ratings and if we make a run, it could get even better.

Playoffs will also mean increased sponsorship, increased ticket sales in the following year, increased merchandise sales, etc.

If at least some of these things don't happen, the club will have to cut back on expenditures.

I still don't buy the $21M in the hole line after everything captured in revenues is tallied but all of the above are important minus the CCL. Besides the hardcore supporters, no one really cares about it and it doesn't pay out well. Most important things are playoff success and some solid play in the summer after the Euros are over when there's a chance for some more eyes on our matches.

TFC/Everton
04-27-2016, 09:53 PM
I still don't buy the $21M in the hole line after everything captured in revenues is tallied but all of the above are important minus the CCL. Besides the hardcore supporters, no one really cares about it and it doesn't pay out well. Most important things are playoff success and some solid play in the summer after the Euros are over when there's a chance for some more eyes on our matches.

Toronto fans certainly don't care about the group stage, but if we advance to the knockout rounds, it could mean a big game or two in March. Our 2012 run was pretty awesome.

Pint
04-28-2016, 07:04 AM
Maybe this is the year they learn you can win by picking up the Moors, Will Johnsons, Clint Irwins of the league and then spend big on one forward for a few goals.

Just a correction... Moor, not Moore. Moore was a giant waste of space here.

Oldtimer
04-28-2016, 07:55 AM
............. I'm sorry but wasn't the problem that we didn't have the right players? We're back to the diamond the system he wanted, with high pressure, and possession... but now we've got the personnel that can play defense and work as a team. He's been greatly influential in getting the players to all buy into the working hard mentality and working as one. Name me all the examples of head coaches that have come into MLS and have had success right from the get go?

I think this is the key thing. I think most of us were skeptical when yet another coach lacking first team experience was hired for the position, instead of say Sigi Schmid. However every coach starts as a new one at some point and Vanney appeared to be learning well from early on. Now a couple of years on, his decisions this year seem overall quite good. Certainly the defense-first focus, while not pretty has been just what this team needed on the road.

Ultimately any coach gets judged on his results, so once we are further along in the season we'll be able to more objectively evaluate his team. However the start has exceeded everyone's expectations, I don't think anyone here expected 11 points at this point.

Kaz
04-28-2016, 08:12 AM
Vanney's record speaks for itself... we've played 7 games and we have yet to win a single game at home.. I mean we haven't played any.. but that doesn't matter.. we should have won at least one anyway.. send him packing ;)

Oldtimer
05-18-2016, 10:00 PM
After being impressed Vanney's discipline with the away games, I'm feeling pretty let down by the home games. Does anyone else feel that way?

With the NY City game they showed a pretty poor start, and the short-passing sucked. They stepped it up after NY's goal, and tactically corrected to play a longer-passing game. That's good, but why were the tactics wrong at the beginning?

Joe Kool
05-18-2016, 11:20 PM
The whiteboard in the locker room says "pass it side to side until you can pass to Seba". Teams know this now. Vanney needs to change tactics and say it is ok to pass to anyone that is in the best position even if not Giovinco.

SirBobSaget
05-18-2016, 11:36 PM
The whiteboard in the locker room says "pass it side to side until you can pass to Seba". Teams know this now. Vanney needs to change tactics and say it is ok to pass to anyone that is in the best position even if not Giovinco.

Everyone is always looking for Seba. One play Babouli had Johnson driving down the middle wide open and also Seba semi-covered out wise, he decides to hammer it out wide to Seba only to smash it into Johnson who was rightfully pissed.

Kaz
05-19-2016, 12:22 AM
After being impressed Vanney's discipline with the away games, I'm feeling pretty let down by the home games. Does anyone else feel that way?

With the NY City game they showed a pretty poor start, and the short-passing sucked. They stepped it up after NY's goal, and tactically corrected to play a longer-passing game. That's good, but why were the tactics wrong at the beginning?


This is 100% on Vanney.

There is not offensive creativity. Last year we scored goals that were team efforts not just.. give the ball to seba. The reason he is involved in all the goals is because they aren't trying to get goals any other way. That is hurting.

The back passes are sloppy and getting sloppier, and it isn't hard to see that TFC has no teeth. It is starting to show through.

Sky still isn't falling but my assessment earlier nearly a month ago stands. The teams strategy which is all Vanney is heavily flawed and is not dynamic enough to handle the smarter coaches in the league. Like Robinson and Vieira for example.

Ivy
05-19-2016, 01:03 AM
I agree with you guys, but when you only have 1 player they can actually score, what options do you have? Everybody has been missing pure sitters these last games (as well as Portland). Nobody trusts each other to finish.

Joe Kool
05-19-2016, 08:01 AM
Everyone is always looking for Seba. One play Babouli had Johnson driving down the middle wide open and also Seba semi-covered out wise, he decides to hammer it out wide to Seba only to smash it into Johnson who was rightfully pissed.

Yeah it actually happened repeatedly enough that it became a topic in our section and once we were talking about it we noticed how much it happened. Whether it was Endoh, Babouli or Johnson making good runs you could tell everyone was looking to pass to Seba even though he was at least double covered.

OgtheDim
05-19-2016, 08:26 AM
People seem to be forgetting that Seba didn't score on a breakaway about 10 minutes in.

ronzilla
05-19-2016, 08:35 AM
People seem to be forgetting that Seba didn't score on a breakaway about 10 minutes in.

It wasn't exactly a breakaway, as there was a defender tracking back while Seba was coming down on a tough angle.

Yohan
05-19-2016, 09:34 AM
It wasn't exactly a breakaway, as there was a defender tracking back while Seba was coming down on a tough angle.

we're used to Giovinco potting those in easily.

Kaz
05-19-2016, 09:42 AM
People seem to be forgetting that Seba didn't score on a breakaway about 10 minutes in.

Giovinico isn't what he was last year. I think part of it is the pressure of the do everything through Seba thing. He has so much pressure where last year he may have been the best player on the pitch but he was part of a team. Altidore last year has scored 5 goals by this point. We had 8 goal scorers.

We aren't using our players well.

Gio this year 8 goals 5 assists from 11 games TFC has scored 14 goals total, Gio directly involved in 13 of 14
last year 5 Goals 6 assists from 11 games TFC had scored 17 goals total, Gio directly involved in 11 of 17

Last year 15 goals against and 16 points after 11 games (5-5-1) (GD +2)
This year 12 goals against and 15 points after 11 games (4-4-3) (GD +2)

we were two points up on last years point total after 7 games and now we are 1 point down after 11 which means all the changes in the offseason have result in basically a net zero gain. We are not a better team this year than we were last year. As we are actually winning fewer games. We aren't losing games but games that we could have won last year are ties and games we would have lost last year are ties. Thus we are ending up with a point deficit. If something doesn't change, if this isn't just a blip. We aren't going to compete for the SS, we aren't going to compete for first in the East and we are going to struggle to get into the playoffs.

The players are here.. the only thing that was potentially an issue last year that is the same now is Vanney and Bez. As such that is a concern.

The sky isn't falling but; it is starting to look like it might be.

OgtheDim
05-19-2016, 10:05 AM
...The sky isn't falling but; it is starting to look like it might be.



Yes, it seems like it was only 120 hours ago that we were all feeling good about this team......oh wait.

ryan
05-19-2016, 11:00 AM
Yes, it seems like it was only 120 hours ago that we were all feeling good about this team......oh wait.

It's like TFC (and Raps/Blue Jays) fans forgot we're Toronto for a while. Welcome back to normal folks!

Detroit_TFC
05-19-2016, 11:03 AM
Time for another arbitrary performance threshhold from Bill Manning? Kinda joking about that, kinda not - it seemed to focus both the squad and the coach.

Kaz
05-19-2016, 04:06 PM
Yes, it seems like it was only 120 hours ago that we were all feeling good about this team......oh wait.


I haven't been feeling good about this time since Portland.

OgtheDim
05-19-2016, 04:14 PM
I haven't been feeling good about this time since Portland.

Fair enough. The transition from defensive stalwarts to at home offensive threats hasn't gone smoothly but our attack has been steady. Vanney himself said yesterday they spent too much time passing the ball around the back and not enough quick movement getting the ball forward. I put that down to 3 of the more offensive targets being pretty raw. Both Endoh and Babouli got into the game more as it went on. Here's hoping for Delgado or Osorio to be back cause Chapman just didn't cut it for me.

habstfc
05-19-2016, 04:28 PM
Giovinico isn't what he was last year. I think part of it is the pressure of the do everything through Seba thing. He has so much pressure where last year he may have been the best player on the pitch but he was part of a team. Altidore last year has scored 5 goals by this point. We had 8 goal scorers.

We aren't using our players well.

Gio this year 8 goals 5 assists from 11 games TFC has scored 14 goals total, Gio directly involved in 13 of 14
last year 5 Goals 6 assists from 11 games TFC had scored 17 goals total, Gio directly involved in 11 of 17

Last year 15 goals against and 16 points after 11 games (5-5-1) (GD +2)
This year 12 goals against and 15 points after 11 games (4-4-3) (GD +2)

we were two points up on last years point total after 7 games and now we are 1 point down after 11 which means all the changes in the offseason have result in basically a net zero gain. We are not a better team this year than we were last year.


Totally disagree, we are much better than last year with Johnson, Irwin, Moor, Beitashour all upgrades from last year.

Ossington Mental Youth
05-19-2016, 04:57 PM
Im actually blaming the players on this, they are passing poorly, allowing balls to be interfered with, not covering men, not taking the extra step in some circumstances. The last two games players looked shook/nervous for the first 25, thats not on Vanney.

Kaz
05-19-2016, 07:07 PM
Totally disagree, we are much better than last year with Johnson, Irwin, Moor, Beitashour all upgrades from last year.

But are we? if the issue we are having scoring continue (ie it all comes from a single source) we are better defensively but are we any better as a whole. If you have about the same points, and the same goal differential how is that effectively better? You have just traded fewer goals scored for fewer goals against. Which is a net zero gain.


Like I say I'm not ready to say the sky is falling.. but thus far we are no better off than we were this time last year. It could improve for sure.. I mean we have only scored more than one goal in 4 out of 11 games and are on pace for only 43 goals in the season which would be bottom 3rd last year. and about .5 goals less a game than last year. The defensive side has us on pace for 37 or so goals which is much better and could be enough if they are in the right places.

There is cause for concern. That concern is in one place. Because. You are right, we are on paper a better team defensively and not that much different offensively as such we should be able to do significantly better than we are. It could be the injuries.. it could be Vanney.

Which means coming into a period were we will likely lose Seba for 4 league games, Bradley for 3 league games and both Bradley and Seba for 2 league games.. we will see what Vanney is made of.

Hamilton_Red
05-28-2016, 07:33 PM
It might be tim to revive the original name for this thread. Other teams have improved since the season started - that's the sign of a good coach. We have declined steadily to the point of shambles today. We should have been riding high after our first homestand...

The most important appointment a soccer team makes is the coach.

reggie
05-28-2016, 08:25 PM
when are we going to get rid of these 2 ass clowns.1 win in the last 6 games in which 4 were at home.oh yah i forgot we are a better team on d now.the only prob is we cant score anymore and we still suck on d.same crap diff year.

jloome
05-29-2016, 08:27 PM
Im actually blaming the players on this, they are passing poorly, allowing balls to be interfered with, not covering men, not taking the extra step in some circumstances. The last two games players looked shook/nervous for the first 25, thats not on Vanney.

Coach has to be a motivator and has to have them prepared. We've had multiple games now where we came out sluggish. It's not a good sign.

He also changes tactics constantly; as a player, I'm not sure how comfortable I'd be playing six different formations in the first eleven games.

I'll say this: Bez got us Giovinco, so even if he hasn't built enough depth into the team, he won't be the one on the block if we're not in the hunt at the break.

ryan
05-29-2016, 08:29 PM
Im actually blaming the players on this, they are passing poorly, allowing balls to be interfered with, not covering men, not taking the extra step in some circumstances. The last two games players looked shook/nervous for the first 25, thats not on Vanney.

Blame the players, sure, but if the belief is they are better than this than the coach goes.

marquis
05-29-2016, 09:40 PM
I think the main reason we showed a better defense in the away games is Bradley, or his new role in front of the back four. He definitely absorbed a lot of pressure and allowed the defenders to keep their composure. Once we got home, Bradley was probably told to go forward and the we started to allow goals. Without Bradley, we're in shambles again, everyone in the back makes mistakes....as seen against NY.
In my opinion, this situation just shows how limited Vanney is as a coach. He's just average at best even in the MLS context, clearly incapable to adapt his game plan to a specific roster situation or even opponent.
We really need to start looking for a real coach. Not rush at all, maybe let Vanney finish the season, but get it right. I don't 't think Vanney can take this team to next level. He had his chance, it's time to move on.

ensco
05-29-2016, 10:39 PM
I'll say this: Bez got us Giovinco, so even if he hasn't built enough depth into the team, he won't be the one on the block if we're not in the hunt at the break.

Bez was the St Bernard with $30M in a barrel around his neck.

Leiweke got the $30M.

Setanta
05-29-2016, 10:55 PM
I think the main reason we showed a better defense in the away games is Bradley, or his new role in front of the back four. He definitely absorbed a lot of pressure and allowed the defenders to keep their composure. Once we got home, Bradley was probably told to go forward and the we started to allow goals. Without Bradley, we're in shambles again, everyone in the back makes mistakes....as seen against NY.
In my opinion, this situation just shows how limited Vanney is as a coach. He's just average at best even in the MLS context, clearly incapable to adapt his game plan to a specific roster situation or even opponent.
We really need to start looking for a real coach. Not rush at all, maybe let Vanney finish the season, but get it right. I don't 't think Vanney can take this team to next level. He had his chance, it's time to move on.

you must have been watching different games than I was watching - there were times I thought Bradley was playing as an extra center half.

I am now of the opinion Vanney should go. we did alright on the road in the first 8 games - alright, but not great. we could have masked that with a decent return from the 4 home games, but to only take 5 points was a disaster for any team harboring ambitions to do something meaningful. The New York City game for me was the last straw. we didn't really show any ambition against a team who started 0 designated players, and who then went out and shipped 7 goals at home the following week. we insist on playing the ball wide, but we use a diamond formation that limits our width. we're 6th in the East standings right now, and would be good enough for only 8th in the West. and bear in mind we have the League MVP and the US National Team Captain. That shouldn't be possible, never mind acceptable. At this rate, if we're lucky, we'll repeat last year and get bounced in the first round of the playoffs. but based on recent performances, I doubt we'll even do that.

I was willing to give Vanney the year to prove me wrong, but I think a decision needs to be made to save the season and he should be given his papers now so we can have a proper coach come in with enough time to prepare for the Galaxy game.

(hell of a first post, I know. Long suffering fan, first year season ticket holder. love the atmosphere at games, but frustrated at the football. life as a Toronto sports fan! only just discovered the forum, glad to be here now as my real friends are sick of hearing me prattle on about the team.)

Fort York Redcoat
05-30-2016, 07:56 AM
I was willing to give Vanney the year to prove me wrong, but I think a decision needs to be made to save the season and he should be given his papers now so we can have a proper coach come in with enough time to prepare for the Galaxy game.


Wait. You were willing to give him the entire season but it's THESE results that changed your mind?? The improvement and results from the away marathon were better than expected but it takes a month of home games that included a win and 2 draws to give up?

And fuck the Galaxy game. We have 2 games v our rival in an elimination tourney now. I don't want someone new right now. They'd have a built in excuse.

Also - Welcome to the board :)

ensco
05-30-2016, 08:02 AM
I don't love Vanney, but lets have this discussion in September/October.

Love him or loathe him, we are much better off just letting this ride through 2016.

You can't just change Vanney, it's bigger than that.

SoccMan2
05-30-2016, 08:37 AM
I too believe letting Vanney go at this point is not going to make a difference right now , while I think Vanney is part of the problem the problems are bigger than just him. Moreover, yes this team had a great 8 game away start, they did very good for a team playing 8 games on the road, however, problems have been exposed with the lousy home stand and now the last away game. There is nothing right now that gives me hope that things will get better, more Likelyhood that things will get worse, However, can't see a change of coach right now making a difference really .

Areathrasher
05-30-2016, 08:58 AM
Right now is the perfect storm of bad form, injuries, absences and the lack of depth being highlighted. It's good that this is happening now instead of towards the end of the summer. There is still time for Vanney and co to right the ship. If they can't and this season finishes like last then cheerio.

Setanta
05-30-2016, 09:40 AM
Wait. You were willing to give him the entire season but it's THESE results that changed your mind?? The improvement and results from the away marathon were better than expected but it takes a month of home games that included a win and 2 draws to give up?

And fuck the Galaxy game. We have 2 games v our rival in an elimination tourney now. I don't want someone new right now. They'd have a built in excuse.

Also - Welcome to the board :)

Thanks!

the away trip was average. 11 points from 8 games is an alright return, but factor in that it's all away games and yes, it's decent. Better than expected is by Toronto standards, which is a mindset that needs to be broken if the club is to be a major player in MLS. The home games were supposed to be a statement of intent for the rest of the season - we've been through our tough patch, we have two-thirds of our remaining games at our newly renovated BMO, lets see who can stop us. 5 points from those 4 games made it 16 points from 12 games, which kind of makes us irrelevant as far as a trophy is concerned. we're a long way off where we thought we were, or where we thought we should be.

It's also the tactics. I just don't understand how we can play a diamond in the middle and then try to attack out wide. the formation narrows the team, the idea behind it is to probe through the middle and then swing it wide to a full back as a secondary option. we're not going through the middle at all this year, the instructions are to go wide early and often. what we're doing and how we're set up is entirely contradictory. the problems at the back clearly haven't been sorted out either, despite all the signings and fanfare that went with them, and we're now so one dimensional in attack that teams know if they shut down Giovinco, we're basically sunk, though it's easier said than done.

The talent is better than the returns, Vanney's been there a while. It's time he was moved on, regardless of the Montreal games.

Carter
05-30-2016, 09:47 AM
Thanks!
the away trip was average. 11 points from 8 games is an alright return, but factor in that it's all away games and yes, it's decent. Better than expected is by Toronto standards, which is a mindset that needs to be broken if the club is to be a major player in MLS. The home games were supposed to be a statement of intent for the rest of the season

Away trip was Average? It tied a LEAGUE RECORD for most points for an away start......

C.Ronaldo
05-30-2016, 09:48 AM
Bez should go before Vanney

Yohan
05-30-2016, 10:21 AM
Both Bez and Vanney aren't going anywhere until TFC is officially out of playoff picture.

Setanta
05-30-2016, 10:39 AM
Away trip was Average? It tied a LEAGUE RECORD for most points for an away start......

it was 11 points in 8 games, 1.375 points per game. hardly setting the world on fire. and it certainly wasn't backed up with all that much from the home stint that followed.

ronzilla
05-30-2016, 10:42 AM
Both Bez and Vanney aren't going anywhere until TFC is officially out of playoff picture.

Not true. If this team continues to struggle, vanney will be gone sooner than later.

There's no way in hell we should waste another season with him.

jloome
05-30-2016, 11:13 AM
Not true. If this team continues to struggle, vanney will be gone sooner than later.

There's no way in hell we should waste another season with him.

If we're out of the playoffs at the break, they might pull it early. Otherwise, I expect he's here 'til the end of the year, as people suggest. But the fact that we're back-ended with home games might make them pull the trigger earlier, figuring a bump plus home field would propel us.

Initial B
05-30-2016, 12:00 PM
What worries me is if Bez starts to feel hot and makes another panic buy like Kantari, saddling the team with another bad contract.

Oldtimer
05-30-2016, 12:24 PM
He also changes tactics constantly; as a player, I'm not sure how comfortable I'd be playing six different formations in the first eleven games.


Mo/Preki/Winter/Shorty Pants wete "too inlexible" and "didn't adjust." Now we have a coach that changes strategy depending on circumstances and that's bad? You can't have it both ways.

I remember how often, for example, Sir Alex Ferguson at Man Utd regularly changed tactics and formations, especially between English and European games. His record speaks for itself.. So is it Vanney changing tactics, or is it our players that is the problem?


Both Bez and Vanney aren't going anywhere until TFC is officially out of playoff picture.


Not true. If this team continues to struggle, vanney will be gone sooner than later.




If we're out of the playoffs at the break, they might pull it early.

Bill Manning has said that he has no intention of changing things during the season, and that TFC's problem has been constant change. I'm sure he'll wait until the end of the season to evaluate.

Jason Kreis is waiting in the wings and if Vanney fails I'm pretty sure he is going to be the solution.

Phil
05-30-2016, 12:29 PM
What worries me is if Bez starts to feel hot and makes another panic buy like Kantari, saddling the team with another bad contract.

Kantari was a move by the other Tim, I can confidently say that ;)

Areathrasher
05-30-2016, 12:32 PM
Kantari was a move by the other Tim, I can confidently say that ;)

How so? I wouldn't have had TL for a penchant for Moroccan CBs :lol:

Jack
05-30-2016, 12:33 PM
it was 11 points in 8 games, 1.375 points per game. hardly setting the world on fire. and it certainly wasn't backed up with all that much from the home stint that followed.
That PPG on the road is right up there with the best road records in the league. Last year's best road record was Vancouver with 1.41 PPG on the road. But yes, our performance since then has been donkey balls.

Kaz
05-30-2016, 12:59 PM
At this point what needs to happen is Manning needs to be looking. He has to be looking for a new GM, a New Head Coach who will bring in their own staff, and the players need to work hard knowing it is happening. Vanney needs to make sure he fights for his job right now.


This could just be a bad spell.. We have only lost 5. But we aren't getting the wins. With the changes made last year we should be up significantly from where we are.


And it is our inability to score. Which as I said produces a Net Zero gain over last. We are no better a team right now than we were last year and that is because of not the players on the pitch but the people coaching. Every player on the Pitch is capable, it is the people behind the scenes that aren't thinking right. I'm not sure we have had a great coach in 10 years. John Carver might have been the closes we have come but he had Mo.


TFC didn't need 120 million in stadium money. It needed Staff money it still does.



I don't see Vanney being here next year.. I think he knows it too. As long as he doesn't drop below the Red line for too long I don't see him getting fired before the end of the season though. If he some how turns it around though.. the sky isn't falling but we need to make a strong push into the playoffs.

Phil
05-30-2016, 01:41 PM
How so? I wouldn't have had TL for a penchant for Moroccan CBs :lol:

He needed to have that team make the playoffs no matter what. One Moroccan CB at a time :lol:

Red4ever
05-30-2016, 01:53 PM
We have to get to the conference finals for them both to keep their job. That wont happen.

TFC Tifoso
05-30-2016, 01:53 PM
At this point what needs to happen is Manning needs to be looking. He has to be looking for a new GM, a New Head Coach who will bring in their own staff, and the players need to work hard knowing it is happening. Vanney needs to make sure he fights for his job right now.


This could just be a bad spell.. We have only lost 5. But we aren't getting the wins. With the changes made last year we should be up significantly from where we are.


And it is our inability to score. Which as I said produces a Net Zero gain over last. We are no better a team right now than we were last year and that is because of not the players on the pitch but the people coaching. Every player on the Pitch is capable, it is the people behind the scenes that aren't thinking right. I'm not sure we have had a great coach in 10 years. John Carver might have been the closes we have come but he had Mo.


TFC didn't need 120 million in stadium money. It needed Staff money it still does.



I don't see Vanney being here next year.. I think he knows it too. As long as he doesn't drop below the Red line for too long I don't see him getting fired before the end of the season though. If he some how turns it around though.. the sky isn't falling but we need to make a strong push into the playoffs.

No we've never had a "great" coach....those are few and far between in MLS, and the ones that do/did exist are comfortable at their jobs without having the pressure that comes with TFC....

Carver was not a great coach either.....he was passionate and had a big mouth but that's about it.....then he did the coaching equivalent to Defoe imo.....once he didn't get his way he threw a tantrum then up and left.....

As far as the current set up goes, I'm still willing to wait and see.....TFC went in to Saturday's game 3 points out of first in the East (still only 4 pts out), and whether the points come at home or road right now it doesn't matter, points are points.....there's no reason to make a change right now.....by August 1 say, the story could be different....

Kaz
05-30-2016, 04:21 PM
No we've never had a "great" coach....those are few and far between in MLS, and the ones that do/did exist are comfortable at their jobs without having the pressure that comes with TFC....

Carver was not a great coach either.....he was passionate and had a big mouth but that's about it.....then he did the coaching equivalent to Defoe imo.....once he didn't get his way he threw a tantrum then up and left.....

As far as the current set up goes, I'm still willing to wait and see.....TFC went in to Saturday's game 3 points out of first in the East (still only 4 pts out), and whether the points come at home or road right now it doesn't matter, points are points.....there's no reason to make a change right now.....by August 1 say, the story could be different....


Ah see you and I have different expectation. I look at the West as much as I look at the East. SS should be something we are looking as well as a MLS cup. The issue comes from the fact that we have a team that should (on paper) be contending. Last year we should have if we had a better defense. We should have that this year.. but got rid of all the offensive support to do it.. which created a net zero.. which seems like a total failure as you are one injury away from collapse. ...

At this point we should be able to compete with the Western teams as well. Not even in the play off picture there. We should be at the top of the East not where we are. We dropped at least 4 points at home that we should have gotten if this was the team we should be. We should be sitting at 20/21 points at least right now. His coaching has produced a Gio that can't score (at his potential level), no real play making because it is all relying on Gio to score so not enough other players are doing so. Mean While you have Jozy whose only real sure thing score was taken by Endoh (and I think he was talked to about it) but I don't think anyone even Jozy holds it against him, I'd count the PK he missed.. but right now even a PK isn't a sure thing for him. So you have two DPs under performing (even though Gio is still doing well) and Michael Bradley playing not great.. he is making odd mistakes at times. Plus you have the back passing that has burned us several times. That is again on Vanney because clearly they are practicing this stuff but not with enough pressure or the players hate doing it so much their hearts just aren't in it.

So again we are back to a single source.

He has time.. I really don't think he can do anything with it though... of course it's been a month since Portland.. so it could be an off month.. I really don't think so though. The issues I said existed then still exist. I have seen nothing to change my opinion in this way.

Carter
05-30-2016, 09:10 PM
it was 11 points in 8 games, 1.375 points per game. hardly setting the world on fire. and it certainly wasn't backed up with all that much from the home stint that followed.

In a league that's 23 years old and it being the record, guess no one really set the world on fire...

attempting to compare this league to any other league would be like comparing apples to oranges.

Moving on...

Oldtimer
05-31-2016, 10:32 AM
At this point what needs to happen is Manning needs to be looking. He has to be looking for a new GM, a New Head Coach who will bring in their own staff, and the players need to work hard knowing it is happening. Vanney needs to make sure he fights for his job right now.



Any good team President either has a good backup or is looking for one for both GM and coach. I'd be shocked if he doesn't have any names in his Rolodex, and I'm sure that Jason Kreis will be on any short list for coach.

Vanney would know that he needs to deliver. I think Manning had said playoffs last year and top 2 in the East this year. It still can be done, but there is no leeway for poor stretches given the poor home run.

ensco
05-31-2016, 10:53 AM
Manning is not just going to replace Vanney with Kreis imho. Not now, and not at year end either. He's not a rent a coach.

Kreis will have plenty of choices at year end - between the expansion teams, and the usual turnover, he could have 5 or 6 options.

If Kreis comes here, it would have to part of a much bigger change in team mgmt and philosophy.

The team would need to have a different GM and a totally different personnel philosophy (DPs and everything else) for Kreis to make sense, and for this to make sense to Kreis.

Oldtimer
05-31-2016, 11:01 AM
Manning is not just going to replace Vanney with Kreis imho. Not now, and not at year end either. He's not a rent a coach.

Kreis will have plenty of choices at year end - between the expansion teams, and the usual turnover, he could have 5 or 6 options.

If Kreis comes here, it would have to part of a much bigger change in team mgmt and philosophy.

The team would need to have a different GM and a totally different personnel philosophy (DPs and everything else) for Kreis to make sense, and for this to make sense to Kreis.

Agreed. Actually Kreis won't likely go anywhere that he doesn't have ultimate control over the team.

Scottish Red
05-31-2016, 01:05 PM
As a relative newcomer to MLS, I have to say that if you want sustained success you need to begin with the manager.

It's great having Giovinco & Bradley, but you need a coach who is equal to that level, and you're probably having to look to Europe for someone who fits the bill.

I like Vanney, he seems like a decent enough guy and a decent coach, but I don't think he's of a high enough calibre for a club that wants to establish itself as a real force.

Red I
05-31-2016, 02:40 PM
As a relative newcomer to MLS, I have to say that if you want sustained success you need to begin with the manager.

It's great having Giovinco & Bradley, but you need a coach who is equal to that level, and you're probably having to look to Europe for someone who fits the bill.

I like Vanney, he seems like a decent enough guy and a decent coach, but I don't think he's of a high enough calibre for a club that wants to establish itself as a real force.

This seemed to be the way of thinking for many years, but the history of this particular league is littered with the dead of many a coach/player who believed their history of success abroad would translate into success in MLS. It is usually not the case. The best coaches in this league tend to be former players or coaches who have MLS experience. Coyle just left Houston (former EPL coach) little after a year in this league.

There is alot to deal with that international coaches are not prepared for... a Salary Cap, restrictions that come with a parity-type league, fiscally prudent ownership, the league not respecting international play dates. I wouldn't want the job myself!

Not only that, but it would be very tough to bring a well known coach of international renown to come into MLS and coach a team that may or may not be Championship winning legacy for years to come based on the parity rules of the league.

I would agree with you though, I think the manager can make the difference. The coach for Toronto will continue to be evaluated this year, but I doubt he is going anywhere in the time being, unless there is a big name waiting in the wings... I don't see it, though.

Ivy
05-31-2016, 11:03 PM
Any good team President either has a good backup or is looking for one for both GM and coach. I'd be shocked if he doesn't have any names in his Rolodex, and I'm sure that Jason Kreis will be on any short list for coach.

Vanney would know that he needs to deliver. I think Manning had said playoffs last year and top 2 in the East this year. It still can be done, but there is no leeway for poor stretches given the poor home run.
I heard through the grape vine late last year that Kreis is still somehow tied to his contract with NY. Not sure of details, but I heard he's somehow limited on options. Same goes with Petke. I'm not sure how long it's for, but that it was the case for last year.

TFC Tifoso
06-01-2016, 07:30 AM
Ah see you and I have different expectation. I look at the West as much as I look at the East. SS should be something we are looking as well as a MLS cup. The issue comes from the fact that we have a team that should (on paper) be contending. Last year we should have if we had a better defense. We should have that this year.. but got rid of all the offensive support to do it.. which created a net zero.. which seems like a total failure as you are one injury away from collapse. ...

At this point we should be able to compete with the Western teams as well. Not even in the play off picture there. We should be at the top of the East not where we are. We dropped at least 4 points at home that we should have gotten if this was the team we should be. We should be sitting at 20/21 points at least right now. His coaching has produced a Gio that can't score (at his potential level), no real play making because it is all relying on Gio to score so not enough other players are doing so. Mean While you have Jozy whose only real sure thing score was taken by Endoh (and I think he was talked to about it) but I don't think anyone even Jozy holds it against him, I'd count the PK he missed.. but right now even a PK isn't a sure thing for him. So you have two DPs under performing (even though Gio is still doing well) and Michael Bradley playing not great.. he is making odd mistakes at times. Plus you have the back passing that has burned us several times. That is again on Vanney because clearly they are practicing this stuff but not with enough pressure or the players hate doing it so much their hearts just aren't in it.

So again we are back to a single source.

He has time.. I really don't think he can do anything with it though... of course it's been a month since Portland.. so it could be an off month.. I really don't think so though. The issues I said existed then still exist. I have seen nothing to change my opinion in this way.

ya different expectations is about it.....the way I see it, this year we figured out the Starting XI, next year we bring in the bench players....then we can talk about competing with the league's best....I really think May was an off month, and perhaps players like Giovinco were preoccupied with making the Euro roster....this month no such distractions exist.....we'll see how it goes....

KurtLarSUN
06-01-2016, 07:53 AM
Agreed. Actually Kreis won't likely go anywhere that he doesn't have ultimate control over the team.

I find it amusing when people hold up Kreis as a brilliant tactician/manager. There's little evidence of this.
Yes, he had a few good years in Salt Lake, but that's certainly not a track record.
The year he won MLS Cup, RSL finished below .500. He never won a Supporters' Shield. He never finished top of the West.
If, for whatever reason, Manning wanted to bring him in, it would change everything. Turnover would be immense. It would be another three- or four-year rebuild.

KurtLarSUN
06-01-2016, 07:54 AM
Question: Had someone asked you your thoughts on TFC's progress under Vanney post-FC Dallas win, what would you have said?

Oldtimer
06-01-2016, 08:03 AM
Question: Had someone asked you your thoughts on TFC's progress under Vanney post-FC Dallas win, what would you have said?

I think everyone thought he was doing decently well.

KurtLarSUN
06-01-2016, 08:14 AM
I think everyone thought he was doing decently well.

So re-evaluating him during a 0-2-2 stretch is kind of silly considering TFC was never going to win in New York. Heck, I predicted a 3-0 loss at Red Bull Arena pre-game considering the absences.

Soccer is a game of inches. Did TFC have a successful May? No. But they were also a Giovinco finish away from finishing last month with a 3-2-0 record, which would have them top of the East.

Giovinco misses one-on-ones with the goalkeeper in draws against New York City and Columbus. If he finishes, this thread likely doesn't exist. Look at the big picture.

ensco
06-01-2016, 08:16 AM
Question: Had someone asked you your thoughts on TFC's progress under Vanney post-FC Dallas win, what would you have said?

A couple of good games, more than a couple of poor games, and on balance more games where we got better than we deserved, than the opposite.

Pint
06-01-2016, 08:25 AM
I heard through the grape vine late last year that Kreis is still somehow tied to his contract with NY. Not sure of details, but I heard he's somehow limited on options. Same goes with Petke. I'm not sure how long it's for, but that it was the case for last year.

I think it has to do with the $$ amount NYCFC is still paying him. From what I recall they were on the hook for the full 7 figure amount for this season and if he signed with another team they didn't owe him anything so any new offer would need to be as high or he would be leaving money on the table this year.

KurtLarSUN
06-01-2016, 08:26 AM
A couple of good games, more than a couple of poor games, and on balance more games where we got better than we deserved, than the opposite.

That's extremely harsh considering...

*Toronto FC had best GAA in the league following first nine matches.
*Sat top three in the East following eight-game road trip.
*Established record for points during an extended road trip.
*Shut out a derby rival in convincing fashion at end of extended road trip.
*And probably should have/could have collected at least a point in each of first nine games. At least they were in position to.

Quite frankly, the "we got better than we deserved" evaluation couldn't be further from the truth...

mistercorporate
06-01-2016, 08:30 AM
That's extremely harsh considering...

*Toronto FC had best GAA in the league following first nine matches.
*Sat top three in the East following eight-game road trip.
*Established record for points during an extended road trip.
*Shut out a derby rival in convincing fashion at end of extended road trip.
*And probably should have/could have collected at least a point in each of first nine games. At least they were in position to.

Quite frankly, the "we got better than we deserved" evaluation couldn't be further from the truth...

Thanks for the voice of reason, hard to keep up with all the negative posts sometimes.

Kaz
06-01-2016, 08:45 AM
Question: Had someone asked you your thoughts on TFC's progress under Vanney post-FC Dallas win, what would you have said?

Honestly I had the same concerns I had all along.

We scored 1 single goal and though no one talked about it, it looked like Endoh was actually lightly scolded about it because he seemed to poach the ball from Jozy. Not with intent just we wasn't aware of where his team mates were. We were back passing, we nearly got burned because of it. Over all we just weren't hitting the mark or putting a strong offensive showing. I put that blame on Vanney.

So to me the Dallas Performance was concerning but more of the same. Of course I couldn't say that because I'd get shouted down as it seemed people were really happy and more interested in the noise than the product on the pitch.

Look in this thread I brought up these issues before the loss in Portland after the 2-0 win in Montreal on April 26th. I really hoped I was wrong, nothing since then has changed me opinion.


Though we are letting in many fewer goals, or offense is much less a team effort and more.. give Seba the ball and hope for the best while we bunker down. This is directly due to Vanney's win by 1 goal or tie strategy. It has paid off point wise but has actually lead to both loses. In fact in our last 5 games we have only scored 4 goals. Last season there was only 1 game in the opening road trip were we didn't score and we scored 2 or more goals in 4 of the 7.

We still need to be able to score. Our offensive form has likely cost us 5 points, we really do need to find a balance. The sky isn't falling but if we lose Seba and Jozy for stretches where is our offense? If we lose Bradley where is our defense? All is not Roses and Gummie Bears. We are 15th in the league in Goals scored right now. We basically went from nearly the top scoring team and the team with the most goals against, to the team with the least goals against but nearly the least goals scored. Both can result in barely making the playoffs as it means every game is going to be a nail biter.

ensco
06-01-2016, 09:06 AM
That's extremely harsh considering...

*Toronto FC had best GAA in the league following first nine matches.
*Sat top three in the East following eight-game road trip.
*Established record for points during an extended road trip.
*Shut out a derby rival in convincing fashion at end of extended road trip.
*And probably should have/could have collected at least a point in each of first nine games. At least they were in position to.

Quite frankly, the "we got better than we deserved" evaluation couldn't be further from the truth...

In the first nine games, we got better than we deserved against NY, NE, DCU and maybe Dallas. We deserved better from the SKC and Portland games.

We looked very good against Montreal, and for good stretches against SKC and Portland. But Montreal remains the only wire to wire complete performance.

Over all, we haven't looked that great, and are overly dependent on Seba to produce everything. That was already true after nine games.

You think this is an "extreme" view? It's a free country

Areathrasher
06-01-2016, 09:14 AM
I heard through the grape vine late last year that Kreis is still somehow tied to his contract with NY. Not sure of details, but I heard he's somehow limited on options. Same goes with Petke. I'm not sure how long it's for, but that it was the case for last year.

Kreis has a big money deal with NYCFC and they are still paying him until the end of this season.

Hamilton_Red
06-01-2016, 09:15 AM
3-0 was a poor prediction - made possible only by the sending off. ... that was another 5-6 goal demolition in the making. The trend of the team - the abject weakness of the team and tactics without it's DP's - they are a matter of coaching. The quality of play since returning to BMO has been poor and getting worse. With this team's history - we are right to be nervous. But I have no doubt that the front office has no plan B. Replacing Vanney with another project...no. An international level manager - might be worth a try.


So re-evaluating him during a 0-2-2 stretch is kind of silly considering TFC was never going to win in New York. Heck, I predicted a 3-0 loss at Red Bull Arena pre-game considering the absences.

Soccer is a game of inches. Did TFC have a successful May? No. But they were also a Giovinco finish away from finishing last month with a 3-2-0 record, which would have them top of the East.

Giovinco misses one-on-ones with the goalkeeper in draws against New York City and Columbus. If he finishes, this thread likely doesn't exist. Look at the big picture.

burlington Red
06-01-2016, 10:05 AM
So re-evaluating him during a 0-2-2 stretch is kind of silly considering TFC was never going to win in New York. Heck, I predicted a 3-0 loss at Red Bull Arena pre-game considering the absences.

Soccer is a game of inches. Did TFC have a successful May? No. But they were also a Giovinco finish away from finishing last month with a 3-2-0 record, which would have them top of the East.

Giovinco misses one-on-ones with the goalkeeper in draws against New York City and Columbus. If he finishes, this thread likely doesn't exist. Look at the big picture.

Therein lies the problem. When we are missing players esp our dp's we almost expect to lose. NYCFC came to us missing their 3 dp's from their starting 11, but you could tell they came to get a result.We go to NYRB missing players and game is over inside 1/2 hr. We have a big issue in our squad depth, the players we bring in to cover injuries etc aren't good enough. Our reliance on Seba and to a lesser extent Bradley is too much. You shut Seba down and essentially we don't score.
Our starting 11 will compete with any team, but football and esp MLS doesn't work that way. You are guaranteed to have stretches in this league missing your big names, and right now we aren't set to carry those players injured or away on international duty.

KurtLarSUN
06-01-2016, 12:35 PM
Therein lies the problem. When we are missing players esp our dp's we almost expect to lose. NYCFC came to us missing their 3 dp's from their starting 11, but you could tell they came to get a result.We go to NYRB missing players and game is over inside 1/2 hr. We have a big issue in our squad depth, the players we bring in to cover injuries etc aren't good enough. Our reliance on Seba and to a lesser extent Bradley is too much. You shut Seba down and essentially we don't score.
Our starting 11 will compete with any team, but football and esp MLS doesn't work that way. You are guaranteed to have stretches in this league missing your big names, and right now we aren't set to carry those players injured or away on international duty.


One key difference: New York City is worse when Pirlo plays.
Their DPs don't help, for the most part. If I'm taking an honest look, I think the league has helped them out a bit cap-wise.

marquis
06-01-2016, 01:00 PM
Honestly I had the same concerns I had all along.

We scored 1 single goal and though no one talked about it, it looked like Endoh was actually lightly scolded about it because he seemed to poach the ball from Jozy. Not with intent just we wasn't aware of where his team mates were. We were back passing, we nearly got burned because of it. Over all we just weren't hitting the mark or putting a strong offensive showing. I put that blame on Vanney.

So to me the Dallas Performance was concerning but more of the same. Of course I couldn't say that because I'd get shouted down as it seemed people were really happy and more interested in the noise than the product on the pitch.

Look in this thread I brought up these issues before the loss in Portland after the 2-0 win in Montreal on April 26th. I really hoped I was wrong, nothing since then has changed me opinion.

Agreed 100%, my thoughts exactly. Vanney never displayed any tactics prowess, the whole game plan is Bradley destroying the opponent's attacks and then the ball needs to get in the general direction of Jozy and Seba. Then hope they'll figure something out. There's absolutely no build up in the middle, possession occurs only in our half, mainly through back passes.
Without Bradley and Jozy, defense is reduced to pilons, while Seba can't get any usable balls.

ronzilla
06-26-2016, 11:19 AM
These are stats comparing this year to last, up to current date:

2015

Wins: 7
Loss: 6
Tie: 2

2016

Wins: 5
Loss: 6
Tie: 4


TFC have brought in many good upgrades this year and yet there is no improvement in results. This is a clear indication
that Vanney is the culprit and is not capable of building a cup contender. Vanney has to go, he is just a terrible coach.

reggie
06-26-2016, 11:55 AM
we will see when we get our 2 overpaid DPs back the ones that miss a 3rd of the season every season,he must get a home playoff game or he and bez are done i think.

molenshtain
06-26-2016, 12:54 PM
This is hilarious.

reggie
06-26-2016, 01:11 PM
jus the true facts my friend

molenshtain
06-26-2016, 01:14 PM
But also doesn;t take into account all the changing circumstances we had between this season and the last, or the likelehood that we go back to being the best team in the conference just once Jozy and Bradley get back next week. Doesn't take into account a lot of things actually.

reggie
06-26-2016, 01:19 PM
didnt bradley go off injured last night?

ensco
06-26-2016, 01:35 PM
Vanney and Bez are absolutely on track to be fired at year end if the team remains mediocre.

The suits are not going to be blaming themselves if a $21M payroll team can't compete with a $4M payroll team.

molenshtain
06-26-2016, 02:04 PM
Vanney and Bez are absolutely on track to be fired at year end if the team remains mediocre.

The suits are not going to be blaming themselves if a $21M payroll team can't compete with a $4M payroll team.


It's the middle of the season. We've shown at times withh all our pieces together that we can be dominant. There's no reason to think we're going to stay at this base level for the rest of the season. We have signings to make, we have guys coming back from international duty and injury. We'll be fine.

ag futbol
06-26-2016, 02:25 PM
Vanney and Bez are absolutely on track to be fired at year end if the team remains mediocre.

The suits are not going to be blaming themselves if a $21M payroll team can't compete with a $4M payroll team.
Can't disagree with that. Something has to change if we continue on the current course.

Is Kreis still available?

OgtheDim
06-26-2016, 02:29 PM
Can't disagree with that. Something has to change if we continue on the current course.

Is Kreis still available?

He is but there is some speculation he is going to Atlanta.


Agreed on the first. If this course continues for the season, both Bez and Vanney are out - as we all know as no playoffs, they are gone.

jabbronies
06-26-2016, 07:36 PM
Vanney and Bez are absolutely on track to be fired at year end if the team remains mediocre.

The suits are not going to be blaming themselves if a $21M payroll team can't compete with a $4M payroll team.


We should not be a middle of the pack team trying to get a home playoff game.
We should be top 3 club competing for the MLS Cup.

Shakes McQueen
06-26-2016, 07:47 PM
Vanney and Bez are absolutely on track to be fired at year end if the team remains mediocre.

The suits are not going to be blaming themselves if a $21M payroll team can't compete with a $4M payroll team.

Yep, and it will be well deserved. They've been patient with Vanney, considering the players currently burning money on the payroll, and he has yet to deliver the kind of results they should expect.

I hope he turns it around once our roster is filled back in with missing players, as I like Vanney, but if we continue this mediocre march, he will have to go.

I'm a little more ambivalent about Bez's future, simply because it's clear that a lot of the big moves "he" made, were actually decided by Leiweke, and he was charged with trying to fill in the cracks. This led to him being handed that shitty situation with Defoe, which he tried to make lemonade out of by getting Altidore, for example.

Then again, the die has been cast, and if he can't get it done within the constraints he has been handed, then maybe they should give someone else a try.

Yohan
06-26-2016, 08:05 PM
We should not be a middle of the pack team trying to get a home playoff game.
We should be top 3 club competing for the MLS Cup.
based upon what? TFC happens to spend more money on just 3 players?

Parity rules MLS. takes exceptional teams to consistently be strong in MLS

noimpactinmtl
06-26-2016, 08:20 PM
based upon what? TFC happens to spend more money on just 3 players?

Parity rules MLS. takes exceptional teams to consistently be strong in MLS

Or you're the LA Galaxy.

__wowza
06-26-2016, 10:09 PM
The suits are not going to be blaming themselves if a $21M payroll team can't compete with a $4M payroll team.


We should not be a middle of the pack team trying to get a home playoff game.
We should be top 3 club competing for the MLS Cup.


i think we need to keep this in mind. as great as it was to qualify for the playoffs last year, nobody wanted to admit that we slid into the final spot that was just added that year.

smtavare
06-26-2016, 10:53 PM
This

Hamilton_Red
06-27-2016, 12:04 AM
The clearest evidence that the DP system is fatally flawed is to look at Portugal in this Euro 2016. One great player rarely can make a team great on their own. The DP system is the worst thing about MLS - I'd abolish the rule tomorrow if I could.

OgtheDim
06-27-2016, 06:03 AM
The clearest evidence that the DP system is fatally flawed is to look at Portugal in this Euro 2016. ...

Ummm.......


*********

Vanney and Bez will not be let go, if they are, until the end of the season.

Ultra & Proud
06-27-2016, 09:19 AM
Or you're the LA Galaxy.
Yeah but they usually have 3 DPs and 3 or 4 guys who should be but take pay cuts.

Oldtimer
06-27-2016, 09:41 AM
I love how this thread resurrects after a loss where some bad refereeing, combined with one DP being injured and the other being away were responsible for the loss. It's like losses automatically bring out cries of "fire the coach!"

Vanney has been responsible for losses over his term but this wasn't one of them.

Detroit_TFC
06-27-2016, 10:06 AM
The clearest evidence that the DP system is fatally flawed is to look at Portugal in this Euro 2016. One great player rarely can make a team great on their own. The DP system is the worst thing about MLS - I'd abolish the rule tomorrow if I could.

It was not always bad. It was a device for a particular time in the league's evolution. But now, I'd say it is not the proper mechanism now, as all the attempts to tack on more and more show. Time has come for a large cap with luxury tax set up. Let the spenders spend, carve out enough to prevent anyone from falling off the cliff at the other end.

Edit: the counterpoint to this is "how to do it in a single entity context." That, unfortunately, is not changing.

spark
06-27-2016, 10:18 AM
i think we need to keep this in mind. as great as it was to qualify for the playoffs last year, nobody wanted to admit that we slid into the final spot that was just added that year.

In a division with two expansion teams!

molenshtain
06-27-2016, 10:51 AM
I love how this thread resurrects after a loss where some bad refereeing, combined with one DP being injured and the other being away were responsible for the loss. It's like losses automatically bring out cries of "fire the coach!"

Vanney has been responsible for losses over his term but this wasn't one of them.


This. I pray we get to a point where we don't have these kinds of thread come up every single time we lose a game, but I fear that that is asking far too much of some people. It's just nice that the people in charge aren't listening to the more trigger happy calls of some of our fanbase anymore.

Yohan
06-27-2016, 12:05 PM
Bez's top priority this summer has to be getting another hold up striker. The lack of space for Giovinco to run at a defender 1v1 is killing the offence. Opposition gives up the flank for TFC attackers to put in a hopeful cross, because TFC attackers lack the height to attack the cross in the box. Opposition concentrates on stuffing the centre of their defence because TFC isn't going to be much of a threat from the flanks.
Hamilton right now is more of a poacher/slasher than a hold up striker. He might develop into a hold up striker, but he'll need to bulk up more and be more mean to buy that space for Giovinco.

Currently the squad relies far too much on pass and move style attack and it's too predictable. In MLS, you do better with a hold up man. As much as Altidore gets flak for not scoring, TFC attack is far better with Altidore in the line up, so that opposition just don't key on stopping Giovinco.
Just my observation, more competitive teams in TFC players on the counter, has a DM who can pass and break up plays and have a strong hold up man to create space for their creative attackers.

I think Bez and Vanney gets till end of Aug to put TFC at least in a playoff position. Manning might consider firing them if the results don't come by then.

Anyone know where we can clone a younger version of Dichio? lol

stevep
06-27-2016, 12:19 PM
We should not be a middle of the pack team trying to get a home playoff game.
We should be top 3 club competing for the MLS Cup.

you tell that to Ismail Elfath

stevep
06-27-2016, 09:25 PM
22pts divided by 15 games is 1.46ppg if elfath calls bendik penalty and doesnt call our guy at end of game
2nd best record in ppg in the east with lots of home games in hand

this league is kind of cheesy

btw anybody think the game was rigged or managed by mls for orlando benefit, it sure looks that way

jabbronies
06-28-2016, 09:39 AM
based upon what? TFC happens to spend more money on just 3 players?

Parity rules MLS. takes exceptional teams to consistently be strong in MLS


My rationale is that TFC have 3 players who are stronger than almost any other players in those positions in the league. Why else would you pay millions to have them on your team? So right off the bat they should be stronger than most teams in those positions.

They have a Champions League/League 1 Veteran in Benoit Cheyrou
Former MLS All Stars in Drew Moore, Justin Morrow, Clint Irwin, Steven Beitashour and Will Johnson

And the rest of them have had elite upbringings as well - Marky Delgado was a US U-17, U-18 and U-20 player; Jonathan Osorio and Damien Perquis both have International experience.

This isn't a team of 3 players and 8 borderline below average mls chumps. They have proven quality all over the pitch.

There is no reason for them to be fighting for the last spot in the MLS playoffs.

IMO - The results are currently show them as underperforming. There are probably a ton of theories why they are and I'm sure people will start to rattle them off - but at the end of the day, with a roster of that talent - they are underperforming.

shwade
06-28-2016, 10:19 AM
My rationale is that TFC have 3 players who are stronger than almost any other players in those positions in the league. Why else would you pay millions to have them on your team? So right off the bat they should be stronger than most teams in those positions.

They have a Champions League/League 1 Veteran in Benoit Cheyrou
Former MLS All Stars in Drew Moore, Justin Morrow, Clint Irwin, Steven Beitashour and Will Johnson

And the rest of them have had elite upbringings as well - Marky Delgado was a US U-17, U-18 and U-20 player; Jonathan Osorio and Damien Perquis both have International experience.

This isn't a team of 3 players and 8 borderline below average mls chumps. They have proven quality all over the pitch.

There is no reason for them to be fighting for the last spot in the MLS playoffs.

IMO - The results are currently show them as underperforming. There are probably a ton of theories why they are and I'm sure people will start to rattle them off - but at the end of the day, with a roster of that talent - they are underperforming.

True but whose idea was it to saddle a Canadian team with Captain America and a perennially injured almost-been.
Bez and Vanney will probably both be gone.

Ultra & Proud
06-28-2016, 10:24 AM
Things went to shit when Jozy went down. Unfortunately he is cursed with shitty hamstrings but his effectiveness on our roster can't be denied. Can't blame Bez or Vanney on dumping Defoe for him. When he's healthy we're a top 3 club, have a golden boot contender in Seba, and have a decent offense. Without him, we're where we were last year in the standings but with a better defense and an off Golden Boot pace Seba.

jabbronies
06-28-2016, 10:30 AM
True but whose idea was it to saddle a Canadian team with Captain America and a perennially injured almost-been.
Bez and Vanney will probably both be gone.


I don't understand what this has to do with anything.
if you think TFC should have a Canadian captain, then I would probably disagree with you.

I think Bradley is a great Captain for this club right now.

shwade
06-28-2016, 10:44 AM
I don't understand what this has to do with anything.
if you think TFC should have a Canadian captain, then I would probably disagree with you.

I think Bradley is a great Captain for this club right now.

No I do not think we should have a Canadian Captain but we're underperforming right now because 2 of our 3 DPs are absent. If Bradley was playing for Chicago and had to miss 10 games a year it wouldn't matter to those fans because he'd be leading their national team and they'd have some positive to counter the absence of their Captain with. Since he's playing for a Canadian team what he does with the US just takes away from his club with no silver lining. And Altidore..no point talking about what he brings to the squad because he's hardly there..man's is raking it in and permanently on vaca.

ronzilla
06-28-2016, 11:02 AM
Things went to shit when Jozy went down. Unfortunately he is cursed with shitty hamstrings but his effectiveness on our roster can't be denied. Can't blame Bez or Vanney on dumping Defoe for him. When he's healthy we're a top 3 club, have a golden boot contender in Seba, and have a decent offense. Without him, we're where we were last year in the standings but with a better defense and an off Golden Boot pace Seba.

With Jozy this year:

Wins 3
Loss 4
Tie 1

Goals 0
Assist 2

Hardly a game changer.

OgtheDim
06-28-2016, 11:26 AM
Do we really have to go over what Altidore does again?

shwade
06-28-2016, 11:32 AM
Do we really have to go over what Altidore does again?

I think we got it..he plays a handful of games a year and creates space for Seba. Awesome DP.

PopePouri
06-28-2016, 11:47 AM
No I do not think we should have a Canadian Captain but we're underperforming right now because 2 of our 3 DPs are absent.

We're 3-1-1 over the past 5 games.

OgtheDim
06-28-2016, 11:48 AM
I think we got it..he plays a handful of games a year and creates space for Seba. Awesome DP.

You don't got it.

Not going to bother going over it all again cause you don't want to got it.

reggie
06-28-2016, 11:54 AM
and irwin is out for 6 weeks,that wont help the park the bus system now.

Ivy
06-28-2016, 12:14 PM
You don't got it.

Not going to bother going over it all again cause you don't want to got it.
I know what you're saying Og, but technically, he isn't wrong either. We're 15 games into the season, and we've played with basically 2 DPs the entire time. Maybe 1.7 if you count Bradley's call up.
Yeah we have the highest payroll, but Seba is the only consistent DP we have. It's very annoying.

shwade
06-28-2016, 12:16 PM
You don't got it.

Not going to bother going over it all again cause you don't want to got it.

What was factually incorrect about my statement?
None so blind as those who refuse to see..
Seriously you cannot argue the fact that Altidore hardly plays. He's getting a shit load of coin. He doesn't have $5.5M Forward stats. So wtf are the redeeming qualities? He's good when he does play? That's fucking awesome for a top 10 salary player in this fucked up league.

Yohan
06-28-2016, 12:45 PM
My rationale is that TFC have 3 players who are stronger than almost any other players in those positions in the league. Why else would you pay millions to have them on your team? So right off the bat they should be stronger than most teams in those positions.

They have a Champions League/League 1 Veteran in Benoit Cheyrou
Former MLS All Stars in Drew Moore, Justin Morrow, Clint Irwin, Steven Beitashour and Will Johnson

And the rest of them have had elite upbringings as well - Marky Delgado was a US U-17, U-18 and U-20 player; Jonathan Osorio and Damien Perquis both have International experience.

This isn't a team of 3 players and 8 borderline below average mls chumps. They have proven quality all over the pitch.

There is no reason for them to be fighting for the last spot in the MLS playoffs.

IMO - The results are currently show them as underperforming. There are probably a ton of theories why they are and I'm sure people will start to rattle them off - but at the end of the day, with a roster of that talent - they are underperforming.
Rationalizing the strength of the squad by amount of money you spend on your squad is a terrible way. Money doesn't guarantees success; way too many factors to determine a winner. Add in the crazy factors you find in MLS and you get the topsy turvy insanity that's MLS. Other teams aren't managed by idiots either. They often find just as good talent and for cheaper price.

ensco
06-28-2016, 01:09 PM
Another gamble about to backfire, I fear.

Would someone ask Bez why we don't have a real backup keeper?

Yohan
06-28-2016, 01:14 PM
Another gamble about to backfire, I fear.

Would someone ask Bez why we don't have a real backup keeper?
I think it's a deliberate squad building strategy to give the kids a chance.

Ultra & Proud
06-28-2016, 01:51 PM
Another gamble about to backfire, I fear.

Would someone ask Bez why we don't have a real backup keeper?

Lots of people should be happy though. I've seen enough calls for Q to get his shot on here so now he will.

Richard
06-28-2016, 02:04 PM
I think it's a deliberate squad building strategy to give the kids a chance.

I'm not opposed to this, but the mentality of the fans and management is challenging for the MLS shield and making a deep run in the playoffs. Releasing your serviceable veteran keeper who wasn't making much maybe wasn't the best idea if a situation like this happens.

Lets see how the gamble pays off, I do want to see what these young keepers can give.

OgtheDim
06-28-2016, 02:11 PM
I'm trying to remember anybody disliking the "dump Konopka & go with the kids as backup" move back when it was done.


We've already seen one brain fart from Bono cost us a goal on Saturday - that was Saundersesque.

Lets see if he and Q can learn a thing or too from their mistakes.

Ultra & Proud
06-28-2016, 02:30 PM
We've already seen one brain fart from Bono cost us a goal on Saturday - that was Saundersesque.

Tough situation to get tossed into. I bet he spent all the previous matches goofing around on the bench without a worry as he never thought he'd actually see game action. Then boom, you're in. I won't hold that screw up against him.

OgtheDim
06-28-2016, 02:40 PM
Tough situation to get tossed into. I bet he spent all the previous matches goofing around on the bench without a worry as he never thought he'd actually see game action. Then boom, you're in. I won't hold that screw up against him.

I don't hold it against him because he's a young kid. But being ready mentally is his first lesson of this 6 week journey.

ensco
06-28-2016, 03:07 PM
I criticized having kids as backups back in the first week.

Seems to me kids should be starters or playing down a level. The backup needs to be a veteran.

Hamilton_Red
06-28-2016, 11:18 PM
It's make or break time for these young lads. A gamble in this league - but with the cap system this is what you get. When will there be pressure to reform MLS and dump the cap? Until then developing the youngsters and giving them a chance is the only way to go. TFC won't be a great team until they are developing 2-3 reliable players a season from the youth ranks. Osario...Baboulli...Hamilton are all encouraging signs. Hopefully we have a decent back up keeper through the system. If not the coach is going to take a pelting.

Fort York Redcoat
06-29-2016, 07:48 AM
I'm trying to remember anybody disliking the "dump Konopka & go with the kids as backup" move back when it was done.


We've already seen one brain fart from Bono cost us a goal on Saturday - that was Saundersesque.

Lets see if he and Q can learn a thing or too from their mistakes.

Yes. There were notes of worry for this very situation then. There was a lot of focus on getting Irwin officially of course.

Kaz
06-29-2016, 01:27 PM
Any chance we can just hire Icelands coaching staff?

OgtheDim
06-29-2016, 01:54 PM
Any chance we can just hire Icelands coaching staff?

Too many dentists in this city as it is.

Derko
06-29-2016, 01:59 PM
Rationalizing the strength of the squad by amount of money you spend on your squad is a terrible way. Money doesn't guarantees success; way too many factors to determine a winner. Add in the crazy factors you find in MLS and you get the topsy turvy insanity that's MLS. Other teams aren't managed by idiots either. They often find just as good talent and for cheaper price.

Just look at the England Euro2016 squad, we just need our DP's to be playing for TFC a majority of the time, regardless of salary, ability or form, just be playing for the team

Yohan
06-30-2016, 08:53 PM
As great as last night's V Cup win was, let's not lose sight that Robbo out coached Vanney again. Caps were in cruise control mode in 2nd half shutting down most of what TFC was throwing at Caps defence. If that Blas Perez shot went in instead of hitting the post, a lot of us would be screaming for Vanney's head right now.

One thing I'll give Vanney though is that TFC never gave up. Players were doing wind sprints last 10 mins of the game on an empty tank. A coach that the players will give their all for is a coach that can improve.

I've accepted that this team is going to have a lot of ups and downs with lots of kids getting mins. Gotta deal with the inconsistencies of playing the kids. I just hope that everything comes together now for a late run into playoffs.

reggie
06-30-2016, 09:41 PM
maybe so...but we should of had at least a 2 or 3 nil win in the first leg and the whitecaps had a full roster lastnight while we were missing 4 or 5 starters,in my opinion vanney will be only be safe if we get a home playoff game.

PopePouri
06-30-2016, 10:02 PM
Outcoached again? I disagree. If Vanney was in the same position, he would have been smart enough to go 5 at the back knowing the other team was going to launch balls into the box. Not only did Will have enough space to hit that but Seba could have teed that up that as well. Even though Ousted missed the ball, we had a numbers advantage in the box in the fifth minute of stoppage time during a championship final.

http://i.imgur.com/cSKNF3Z.png

Robinson's risky game management lost them the cup.

ensco
06-30-2016, 10:33 PM
That final play wasn't about coaching. It was about Ousted having a total brain cramp - he needs to punch that ball. That, and the soccer gods really wanted to kick the Whitecaps in the nuts.

We did not play well. Vanney was 30 seconds away from having these boards go thermonuclear.

ManUtd4ever
06-30-2016, 10:53 PM
That final play wasn't about coaching. It was about Ousted having a total brain cramp - he needs to punch that ball. That, and the soccer gods really wanted to kick the Whitecaps in the nuts.

We did not play well. Vanney was 30 seconds away from having these boards go thermonuclear.

Vanney certainly didn't win that game for us, but in fairness to him, we were missing several key starters.

PopePouri
06-30-2016, 10:54 PM
That final play wasn't about coaching. It was about Ousted having a total brain cramp - he needs to punch that ball. That, and the soccer gods really wanted to kick the Whitecaps in the nuts.

We did not play well. Vanney was 30 seconds away from having these boards go thermonuclear.

If Robinson hadn't wanted to chase that 3rd goal, he could have crowded the box enough to at least clear it when the ball dropped or put in a block for the shot. This is us in stoppage time during the Montreal game. That's 8 players behind the ball, no space for the opposition and in defensive shape.

http://i.imgur.com/p3T7Sao.png

For all Robinson's ability as a coach, he's not as flexible tactically as Vanney.

reggie
06-30-2016, 10:55 PM
every game has ifs and buts,if we put away our chances at home we could of won 3 nil.

mistercorporate
06-30-2016, 11:02 PM
Other teams and fan bases would kill to have the number of high end DP's we have (Altidore is debatable given the injury history). The side effect of so many high end DP's is it effects our depth. If you want an energized and passionate fanbase, which having good DP's helps provide, then there will be performance consequences when they're not playing for NT duties. Would you guys prefer an FC Dallas or Timbers roster? That's what I thought.

Yohan
06-30-2016, 11:19 PM
Other teams and fan bases would kill to have the number of high end DP's we have (Altidore is debatable given the injury history). The side effect of so many high end DP's is it effects our depth. If you want an energized and passionate fanbase, which having good DP's helps provide, then there will be performance consequences when they're not playing for NT duties. Would you guys prefer an FC Dallas or Timbers roster? That's what I thought.

I actually prefer to build the roster FC Dallas way. They are helluva fun to watch and they put up results.

TFC is trying to do the youth movement thing Dallas is doing, but Dallas is probably best at producing youth talent in MLS.

Kaz
07-01-2016, 07:50 AM
This wasn't Robinson's fault. It was a brain fart between the team one extra guy in the box likely wouldn't have made a difference in that play. As you had a defender and keeper both getting in each others way and Johnson being right there. Seba wouln't have got to it before the defender who were there regrouped to make a shot tough.. It was a serious error by the players not the coach.

Robinson knew the weakness of Vanney's squad... (that they can't score consistently at the best of times and protect leads when ever possible) Vanney had a lead going in.. didn't push for the away goal hard enough in the first half, as such once the first goal came it was going to be harder to get one. When the second goal came we were in trouble. It took a brain fart on Vancouver's part.

What happened in Vancouver shows everything wrong with Vanney. He tries to get a lead and protect it.. instead of trying bury the game... likely because he doesn't have the pieces he needs because of poor team building from he and Bez. You can't Blame Manning because I highly doubt he is "Moing" it up. Manning says win.. do it with a low goals against.. and a good staff would say.. but that will result in less offensive play, we can bring in a few defensive pieces to make the defense stronger and keep the differential right without giving up all the attacking pieces.

If Vanney and Bez did get a directive (which has been a defence of them on here in the past) to have a low goals against this year.. it is there fault for not making a good case about how to win. They also didn't do enough to provide good service causing both attacking DPs to under perform and leashing the third DP to a solely defensive role.

We could have Chad Barrett and actually be more offensively dangerous than we are with Jozy on the pitch with the people around him without sacrificing any goals.

This game was just another show of the failings of Vanney we have been seeing since Portland at the beginning of May.



If Robinson hadn't wanted to chase that 3rd goal, he could have crowded the box enough to at least clear it when the ball dropped or put in a block for the shot. This is us in stoppage time during the Montreal game. That's 8 players behind the ball, no space for the opposition and in defensive shape.

http://i.imgur.com/p3T7Sao.png

For all Robinson's ability as a coach, he's not as flexible tactically as Vanney.

ensco
07-01-2016, 07:53 AM
If Robinson hadn't wanted to chase that 3rd goal, he could have crowded the box enough to at least clear it when the ball dropped or put in a block for the shot. This is us in stoppage time during the Montreal game. That's 8 players behind the ball, no space for the opposition and in defensive shape.


For all Robinson's ability as a coach, he's not as flexible tactically as Vanney.

You are actually showing stills of guys packing the box in extra time to demonstrate "flexibility"?

Outcomes aren't the same as probabilities. Vancouver had that Endoh ball handled, they were undone by a massive gaffe. What TFC did was cash a lottery ticket - we were 99.9% dead there, everyone here knows it.

None of that is about Vanney or Robinson.

Over the two games, Vancouver had the majority of better play, and organization. We edged them, it feels good. But it wasn't about us outcoaching them, in any way.

mistercorporate
07-01-2016, 09:51 AM
Ronaldo said the same thing about Iceland yet there they went and beat England, reaching the final 8. People criticized Chelsea for years for using the same park the bus and hit them with the counter technique yet there they went and won Championship after Championship. It works.

Lennon
07-01-2016, 10:08 AM
I thought we were fully in control until Vancouver scored. Did they even have a shot on target in the first half? It was playing out a lot like the away game in Montreal, and I don't remember and criticism of Vanney from that game.

It doesn't make much sense to take an offensive approach in a game where you have the lead and your 2nd best finisher is your DM (Johnson).

ensco
07-01-2016, 10:13 AM
I thought we were fully in control until Vancouver scored. Did they even have a shot on target in the first half? It was playing out a lot like the away game in Montreal, and I don't remember and criticism of Vanney from that game.

It doesn't make much sense to take an offensive approach in a game where you have the lead and your 2nd best finisher is your DM (Johnson).

"Fully in control?" Listen, to each his own, but I thought we were just standing around playing Mariner football, parking the bus, and then when we needed to attack, we couldn't get anything going (until Edwards came on late, which was interesting, let's see more of him please).

Lennon
07-01-2016, 10:20 AM
"Fully in control?" Listen, to each his own, but I thought we were just standing around playing Mariner football, parking the bus, and then when we needed to attack, we couldn't get anything going (until Edwards came on late, which was interesting, let's see more of him please).

We had a good amount of possession. Not in dangerous areas, but it least it kept Vancouver from creating anything. Hard to get much going with only 2 attacking players on the pitch and a CB playing at RB.

Vanney could have started Endoh or Edwards instead of Delgado for more attacking punch, but then there would be no one to provide cover for Hagglund. I think it's hard to fault him for going with the same tactics that worked so well away to Montreal.

Oldtimer
07-01-2016, 10:34 AM
If Robinson hadn't wanted to chase that 3rd goal, he could have crowded the box enough to at least clear it when the ball dropped or put in a block for the shot. This is us in stoppage time during the Montreal game. That's 8 players behind the ball, no space for the opposition and in defensive shape.

http://i.imgur.com/p3T7Sao.png

For all Robinson's ability as a coach, he's not as flexible tactically as Vanney.

I don't know if I'd say "flexible" as much as "astute." It's clear that Robinson's plan wasn't suited for keeping their lead. It's not that Vanney won the game through some sort of genius tactics as much as Robbo lost it through flawed tactics.

OTOH full credit to Vanney for man-management. Having a team that fights literally to the very last second is something every coach wants but it takes good motivational skills to achieve.

PopePouri
07-01-2016, 10:52 AM
I don't know if I'd say "flexible" as much as "astute." It's clear that Robinson's plan wasn't suited for keeping their lead. It's not that Vanney won the game through some sort of genius tactics as much as Robbo lost it through flawed tactics.

OTOH full credit to Vanney for man-management. Having a team that fights literally to the very last second is something every coach wants but it takes good motivational skills to achieve.

I'm definitely not saying Vanney's a genius, just that he's more flexible tactically and able to adjust to game states better. I think Robbo played a 4-2-3-1 the entire match.

ag futbol
07-01-2016, 11:56 AM
That final play wasn't about coaching. It was about Ousted having a total brain cramp - he needs to punch that ball. That, and the soccer gods really wanted to kick the Whitecaps in the nuts.

We did not play well. Vanney was 30 seconds away from having these boards go thermonuclear.
Agreed. It's one play. Pinning it on Robinson is micro analysis.

Not a lot generated prior to that ball going in the net.

smtavare
07-02-2016, 09:38 PM
Fire Vanney,bring in experienced MLS Coach fuuuccckin Plleeease!!!!!!!

Currently has worse record than last year and is losing Seba's interest in the team

Yohan
07-02-2016, 09:43 PM
Fire Vanney,bring in experienced MLS Coach fuuuccckin Plleeease!!!!!!!

Currently has worse record than last year and is losing Seba's interest in the team
Fire Vanney because Giovinco can't bury a sitter?

the 3-5-2 Vanney trotted out created enough chances to win. Lack of finishing... how's that a coach's fault?

Areathrasher
07-02-2016, 09:56 PM
Yea, Seba buries his chances and TFC are 2-0 at the half.

Fuck off with the Fire Vanney stuff tonight. He gave the kids a shot, set them up to succeed, they played some awesome stuff and Seba flubbed his lines.

It is what it is.

smtavare
07-02-2016, 10:05 PM
What's the coach's record dumbasses, everyone has the right to their opinions.

I will not be like the other plastic hipster cheerleaders, that's my opinion and I am entitled to one.

You can disagree but don't tell me to fuck off douchebag

The stats are there to back my opinions

Areathrasher
07-02-2016, 10:06 PM
you quite clearly know your stuff.

BelfastBoy
07-02-2016, 10:08 PM
Vanney is doing a decent job, they just need to get through this stretch with all these injuries. Letting the youth play is the best way to develop the squad. I am only going to worry if they drop points to Chicago next week.

mistercorporate
07-02-2016, 10:21 PM
Yeah vanney did the best he could with the roster he had available, give it a rest.

Lennon
07-02-2016, 10:26 PM
I thought it was funny that someone chose to bring a #Vanny Out sign 3 days after we won the Voyageurs Cup and qualified for the CCL.

smtavare
07-02-2016, 11:01 PM
If Vanney is so great, why does this thread even exist.

I will forgo ever expressing my opinion here anymore as this is nothing but a plastic cheerleader forum

Auzzy
07-03-2016, 12:07 AM
I thought Vanney's starting lineup and tactics against Seattle were decent, considering the crazy amount of absences.

However his subs weren't nearly as good as they could have been.

molenshtain
07-03-2016, 02:44 AM
If Vanney is so great, why does this thread even exist.

I will forgo ever expressing my opinion here anymore as this is nothing but a plastic cheerleader forum


These are the takes that make this forum so great.

Fort York Redcoat
07-03-2016, 07:15 AM
If Vanney is so great, why does this thread even exist.

I will forgo ever expressing my opinion here anymore as this is nothing but a plastic cheerleader forum

And with this kind of callout no one will beg you to express an opinion. When you make wild generalizations and characterize everyone the same way no wonder your response is extreme.

OgtheDim
07-03-2016, 07:17 AM
What's the coach's record dumbasses, everyone has the right to their opinions.

I will not be like the other plastic hipster cheerleaders, that's my opinion and I am entitled to one.

You can disagree but don't tell me to fuck off douchebag

The stats are there to back my opinions



Stats can be cherrypicked.

That tie, with basically the B team + Beitashour and Seba, is disappointing because we should have won.

Fort York Redcoat
07-03-2016, 07:21 AM
Yea, Seba buries his chances and TFC are 2-0 at the half.

Fuck off with the Fire Vanney stuff tonight. He gave the kids a shot, set them up to succeed, they played some awesome stuff and Seba flubbed his lines.

It is what it is.


What's the coach's record dumbasses, everyone has the right to their opinions.

I will not be like the other plastic hipster cheerleaders, that's my opinion and I am entitled to one.

You can disagree but don't tell me to fuck off douchebag

The stats are there to back my opinions

Both of you can cut the name calling out and stick to the debate topic.

Oldtimer
07-03-2016, 08:07 AM
If Vanney is so great, why does this thread even exist.

I will forgo ever expressing my opinion here anymore as this is nothing but a plastic cheerleader forum

Bye bye.

If you are like most posters who "leave" in a dramatic post, you'll be back.

BTW, this thread exists because we should always be evaluating the coach, not because there is any consensus about him like there was for Mariner.

ensco
07-03-2016, 08:19 AM
Not interested in "Vanney out". I think any discussion about Vanney should be solely focused on year end. I also want a combo deal here. Both Bez and Vanney stay, or they both leave.

Kaz
07-03-2016, 09:35 AM
Not interested in "Vanney out". I think any discussion about Vanney should be solely focused on year end. I also want a combo deal here. Both Bez and Vanney stay, or they both leave.

I agree with this. It has to be both. They are both at fault here.

Does anyone have confidence that Manning and his staff have the ability to properly do this though. My biggest worry is that he won't know what he wants.

MLSE needs to bring in a full pay staff. Sell Jozy and bring in a staff that can coach at this level. I like that Vanney is flexible but He doesn't have the pieces.

And honestly I'm not sure if that is him or Bez.. I'd be ok with just Bez going and the offseason is spent fixing the defence.. or even just working with the kids to get them up to par.

But I honestly think this is a Bez+Vanney issue. Both need to be replaced.

Ultra & Proud
07-03-2016, 10:02 AM
Two things I will say about what Vanney has done:

1) We have a system that gives us a chance to get something out of every match. Even when at our ugliest, we manage to hang around because of the system in place and for the first time ever, everyone, even bench players, seem to know what they are meant to do. More often than not these bench players or players returning after long breaks (Bloom) are getting the job done and not looking horrible out of place.

2) Connected to number 1: for the first time I recall in our history, we can swap players in and out of the squad, change formations by game or in game, and have the players all get it. That's good preparation on the training ground. I didn't see enough of that last year but maybe the guys who argued against me in the Vanney Deathwatch thread were right. He needed time to get it into the players heads.

I don't remember a time in our history that we could have that many starters out and have a line up filled with rookies and a returning player like Bloom and get something from the match. We'd have been happy with putting up a good fight. This game should have been won in the first half and would have if it wasn't for some dodgy finishing. Says something when the best player on the team and the guy people complained about being all we had last year to win matches can be one of the worst players on the pitch last night and we get a point in a match that was ours for the taking.

I was the biggest anti-Vanney guy on here for his first year and a half on the job and I had zero faith in him this season. I predicted he'd be gone by now. Now there is no reason for him to go. Are there better options available? Maybe but they come with risk and turnover and I don't see the need for us doing that again.

Bez however is a different story. There should be an evaluation thread on him as this upcoming window is key for us. If all he adds is Ricketts then we're screwed and he isn't doing his job. That's a Mo type acquisition. Just grab whatever trash is available and if you can sell said trash as a CMNT player then all the better for the rubes to swallow. Whatever goes down at the end of the season, to me, is on him.

OgtheDim
07-03-2016, 10:02 AM
Defence isn't our issue. Its goal scoring.

4th best goals against in the league. 4th worst goals for.

Ultra & Proud
07-03-2016, 10:30 AM
Defence isn't our issue. Its goal scoring.

4th best goals against in the league. 4th worst goals for.

And this is exactly what needs to be addressed and in my opinion, Ricketts alone won't get it done. Time for Bez to show his worth.

noimpactinmtl
07-03-2016, 10:44 AM
Bez was hired for one reason; the Byzantine MLS salary cap system that would drive most managers insane.

Ultra & Proud
07-03-2016, 10:48 AM
Bez was hired for one reason; the Byzantine MLS salary cap system that would drive most managers insane.
So now it's his time to show us that he can pull some Galaxy level cap moves. You're 100% right though. That was his sole purpose and he should be held accountable if he can't make it work. Other teams have 3 DPs and get it done.

Kaz
07-03-2016, 11:29 AM
Defence isn't our issue. Its goal scoring.

4th best goals against in the league. 4th worst goals for.
This is in a nut shell my issue.


Last year we had a great offense but we had a few defensive holes.

You can't tell me Beit, Moor and Irwin ate up the same salary as Luke Moore, Robbie Findley, Jackson, both keepers and whatever was freed up with Gomez (as iirc we are still on the hook for some)

Then instead of an attacking wing we brought in.. Wil Johnson... who I like but wasn't needed.

Then Bez and Vanney basically spent the whole off season taking a really strong offensive goal scoring side with some defensive woes and shifted it the entirely opposite direction counting on a single player who now has the world on their shoulders to pick up the slack. That is poor management. We needed to let in 5-10% fewer goals than last year while scoring about the same. Instead we may let in 33% fewer goals and score 33% fewer as well.

In the end we are in the exact same spot we were last year, having a hard time winning games because our goal differential is poor.

The positives, like getting the most out of the depth players is out weighed by the inability to build the team properly. They had to know what the off season moves were going to mean to the offense and it is poor coaching to put all your hopes on one player and a second player that can't score without service (which is well documented by Jozy's Sunderland stint).

Bradley floating can be a difference maker in the attack but he is seldom doing that this season due to him having a defined Defensive role. Morrow and Osorio are expected to be our wingers and Gio who would do well in a floating AM role is placed as a forward.

There is a system but; it is defence first and can't win the league. On top of that it has only gotten worse as the season has gone on.

Last year from May 1st to July 4th (2 months) the team dropped 13 points in 10 games (1.7ppg). This year 18 points in 9 games (1ppg).
- if you think I'm cherry picking I just took May 1st (about the time I decide the issue was real)
Other ways to do it:
- from home opener to July 4th weekend 2015 1.4ppg (9 games) 2016 1.125ppg (8 games)
- 9 games from May 1st 2015 1.8ppg 2016 1ppg
- last 9 games 2015 1.56ppg 2016 1ppg
- last 8 games 2015 1.75ppg 2016 1.125ppg
- last 10 games 2015 1.7ppg 2016 1.2ppg
- first 16 games 2015 1.44ppg 2016 1.25ppg

No matter how you spin it.. we are doing worse this year than last. You can blame injuries etc.. yet the simple fact, injuries or not, is we aren't a threat going forward, we put too much pressure on a single player allowing other teams to just swarm him at which point no one knows what to do.

Our system has other issues too.. Hamilton and Endoh collided as they both went for a ball against Orlando. Endoh has had this issue in the past not being aware of where other players were.. last time it resulted in a goal because Jozy backed off. In this case Hamilton didn't and it cost us a goal. One of them needed to back off and watch for the rebound. It's good to see the kids hungry but they need to be better aware of where other players are.


These are all coaching issues. Yes players know what to do.. but they still can't do it in the final third because the plan is still.. give Gio the ball.. not get the ball to the feet of the player with the best chance to score.. ie the player that doesn't have 4 players closing him down half the game.

Kamp Berg
07-03-2016, 11:53 AM
This is in a nut shell my issue.


Last year we had a great offense but we have a few defensive holes.

You can't tell me Beit, Moor and Irwin ate up the same salary as Luke Moore, Robbie Findley, Jackson, both keepers and what ever was freed up with Gomez (as iirc we are still on the hook for some)

Then we instead of an attacking wing we brought in.. Wil Johnson... who I like but wasn't needed.

The two of them basically spent the whole off season taking a really strong offensive goal scoring side with some defensive woes and shifted in the entirely opposite direction counting on a single player who now has the world on their shoulders to pick up the slack. That is poor management. We need to let in 5-10% fewer goals than last year while scoring about the same. In stead we may let in 33% fewer goals and score 33% fewer.

in the end we are in the exact same spot were were last year having a hard time winning games because our goal differential is poor.

The positives like getting the most out of the depth players is out weighed by the inability to build the team properly. They had to know what the off season moves were going to mean to the offense and it is poor coaching to put all your hopes on one player and a second player that can't score without service (which is well documents by Jozy Sunderland stint).

Bradley floating can be a difference maker in the attack but he is seldom doing that. Morrow and Osorio are expected to be our wingers and Gio who would do well in a DeRo AM role is placed as a forward.

There is a system but it defence first and can't win the league. It has only gotten worse as the season as gone on.

last year from May 1st to July 4th the team dropped 13 points in 10 games (1.7ppg). This year 18 points in 9 games (1ppg).
(if you think it is unfair to take the last road game then sure just from home opener to July 4th. 2015 1.4ppg 2016 1.125 ppg)

You can blame injuries etc.. the simple fact is we aren't a threat going forward, we put too much pressure on a single player allowing other teams to just swarm him and which point no one knows what to do.

Our system has issues too.. Hamilton and Endoh collided as they both went for a ball. Endoh has had this issue in the past not being aware of where other players were.. last time it resulted in a goal because Jozy backed off. In this case Hamilton didn't and cost us a goal one of them needed to back off and watch for the rebound.

It's good to see the kids hungry but they need to be better aware of where other players are.


These are all coaching issues. Yes players know what to do.. but they still can't do it in the final third because the plan is still.. give Gio the ball.. not get the ball to the feet of the player with the best chance to score.. ie the player doesn't have 4 players closing him down half the game.

👍 Bang on!