New Vanney evaluation thread

[Smokecell]

No offence there is not one singular player from our academy that is as good as Tyler Adams, Sean Davis and a few others. Giving academy players minutes if they earned them fine, but giving them minutes just because they are from the academy is just asinine.

Add Aaron Long to the list. NYRB seem to be doing something very well at the academy and NYRBII levels. I believe the latter has won a USL title but I could be wrong. That in and of itself says something when compared to TFCII. Anyways, this is all to say that their players are ready to compete for spots once they are signed to the first team. We can't quite say the same.

Some more food for thought...do we win a Shield in '17 with incrementally higher minutes to the academy grads?

I hope we get to that point but I fell like the amount of turnover with our coaching at those levels is hurting us. I don't see how we can be effective when the head coach struggles to last more than 2 years, most recently with Guyot leaving for France.

[OgtheDim]

We pretty much bought or traded for the 16 & 17 teams - exceptions are Osorio & Bono & Morgan. That's LAG style (until this year - they have a 16 year old wonder kid + others)

Buying can only get you so many years in a row - it isn't consistently sustainable. Vanney has to let go a bit or we will continue to have to trade for decent players.

[ag futbol]

The argument here for playing the kids is there are a number of players from the GTA who have made it through to MLS from elsewhere (normally Sigma first and then in to the NCAA). If you identified those kids earlier and developed them property their ceiling should be higher than the current route they are taking. But again, they need to play. We can't be so cheap about giving guys opportunity.

This isn't pie-in-the-sky stuff. We need this academy to start working. If we're dependent entirely on transfers that makes life difficult. We have the advantage of a huge catchment and aren't using it. That should drive the front office mad.

[TheGoodson]

[QUOTE=OgtheDim;1891742]Nobody knew they were good enough for MLS until they stepped on the field. Almost every other team in this league plays youth in order to check them & grow them. If you don't, they don't get better. Teams that don't do that stagnate. Dallas is a prime example - played youth who earned it. Great.....problem is they stuck with the same youth for 4 years. Have to keep looking at youth who can play & bring them up. If you don't, you then have to buy players year after year after year.

Edu Osorio Morgan Henry & Bono - the only players this team has grown over the years into starters.

Morrow is possibly done in 2 years - he looks slower already. Is Telfer the answer? Who knows - but you know better if he plays.

Is Frasier the DM choice after Bradley? We don't know because he doesn't get any minutes.

From what I'm seeing, Vanney puts a lot of emphasis on how well players train. Fair enough. BUT, sometimes, you have to give a kid a chance. And there are very few teams who do that as little as we do.[/QUOTE

So if I understand you correctly the only way to judge if they are good enough is to play them corect?

If if a player doesn’t put the effort in/doesn’t get the tactics when training why play them? I’m sorry youth players need to earn their spots not just be given opportunities because they are from the academy. That’s how works every where else in the world and seems to be a pretty good way of doing it.

I know a few people in the academy and the most common reply I get on why we don’t haven’t had any impact players from our academy like Dallas or NYRB or the Galaxy is due to the mentality of the kids here. Also, for tfc to truly develop a player like Adams they need the kid starting at age 9/10. Kids coming in later on most of them have developed bad habits that can’t be broken. Play within a system for years and not have constant changes in the academy set up like what has happened here is the only way we will ever develop players, save a generational talent that are few and far between and they would be successful not matter what path they choose to become a pro

[TheGoodson]

[QUOTE=OgtheDim;1891742]Nobody knew they were good enough for MLS until they stepped on the field. Almost every other team in this league plays youth in order to check them & grow them. If you don't, they don't get better. Teams that don't do that stagnate. Dallas is a prime example - played youth who earned it. Great.....problem is they stuck with the same youth for 4 years. Have to keep looking at youth who can play & bring them up. If you don't, you then have to buy players year after year after year.

Edu Osorio Morgan Henry & Bono - the only players this team has grown over the years into starters.

Morrow is possibly done in 2 years - he looks slower already. Is Telfer the answer? Who knows - but you know better if he plays.

Is Frasier the DM choice after Bradley? We don't know because he doesn't get any minutes.

From what I'm seeing, Vanney puts a lot of emphasis on how well players train. Fair enough. BUT, sometimes, you have to give a kid a chance. And there are very few teams who do that as little as we do.[/QUOTE

So if I understand you correctly the only way to judge if they are good enough is to play them corect?

If if a player doesn’t put the effort in/doesn’t get the tactics when training why play them? I’m sorry youth players need to earn their spots not just.l be given opportunities because they are from the academy. That’s how works every where else in the world and seems to be a pretty good way of doing it.

I know a few people in the academy and the most common reply I get on why we don’t haven’t had any impact players from our academy like Dallas or NYRB or the Galaxy is done to the mentality of the kids here. Also, for tfc to truly develop a player like Adams they need the kid starting at age 9/10. Kids coming in later on most have developed bad habits that can’t be broken. Play within a system for years and not have constant changes in the academy set up like what has happened here

[ensco]

Copying jloome's excellent post here about Vanney playing a mostly B team in Atlanta, and adding to it below...


I've been thinking about that decision, which I initially thought was sort of a bold gamble, and what might logically have happened.

I think maybe Vanney doesn't have faith in our bench players. So he only plays them in bunches together, rather than platooning or rotating them properly, and in damn near hopeless situations.

I think maybe he's making a serious mistake with how he handles our depth.

Ashtone Morgan is not a shit fullback, and he is not old. He just never plays.

At one point, when he was younger, he might've had a shot at being starting quality. Now, he has no delivery any more and is not fast enough to beat guys offensively... and we play with wingbacks more than half the time.

I don't think Boyd or Hamilton are complete shit, either. Boyd was a competitive player until he was bumped to the Bundesliga and it was out of his depth. He was a U.S. national team player. Even if someone loses some speed to age and injuries, their technique and intelligence doesn't disintegrate completely.

But they never play.

Chapman has real potential to be a starter in MLS. But the tiny amount of activity he's seeing relative to what's required to break through means that it won't happen here.

I watch how top managers handle a roster, and there are simply a lot more individual subs based on performance in a match, and not on long-term planning or projection -- or worse, a lack of faith in certain players.

I don't think a team can win this league anymore without faith in at least most of its roster.

We had four wins coming into this game and yet every time we're ahead, he leaves it until the post 70th minute to make a change. And he never spot starts someone just to give one player a rest or another a reward for good training. It's just "did the guy ahead of you screw up last game?"

It all seems maybe too simplistic, like we are limiting what our squad can be. Certainly, in retrospect, I don't see the point in that many changes without even resting our two top healthy players. It made a tough game harder and it made players who rarely play look bad, and less confident.

Perhaps he has a core mentality issue, where if a player isn't behaviourally the way he likes, he just won't let them play. Again, I'm not sure MLS is the kind of league where a manager inflexible to personality differences will keep winning.

I look at the other guys who at this level produce over and over as coaches -- Tata Martinez, Bradley, Berhalter -- and they all handle different personalities exceptionally well, and they all give younger players more time to show what they have and adapt.

Your strength can become your weakness.

Vanney is big on lineup stability and “loyalty”, and it worked in 2016 and 2017, but it's turned on him. It has caused him to give too many opportunities in 2018 and 2019 to Delgado, Zavaleta, probably Bradley, as well as Bono. There needs to be more of a “feel” on when to make a change.

The part about in game subs, it's the same issue. He treats that like some sort of rule because it worked earlier in his time here. You are bang on.

These lineup practices have become superstitions.

[jloome]

Copying jloome's excellent post here about Vanney playing a mostly B team in Atlanta, and adding to it below...



Your strength can become your weakness.

Vanney is big on lineup stability and “loyalty”, and it worked in 2016 and 2017, but it's turned on him. It has caused him to give too many opportunities in 2018 and 2019 to Delgado, Zavaleta, probably Bradley, as well as Bono. There needs to be more of a “feel” on when to make a change.

The part about in game subs, it's the same issue. He treats that like some sort of rule because it worked earlier in his time here. You are bang on.

These lineup practices have become superstitions.

We'll see for sure I guess in the next few weeks; a two-game losing streak would make one assume some change is coming. We can't blame goaltending anymore, as Westberg has been excellent.

[DinamoTFC]

Is Vanney a good coach or does he need good players in order to be a good coach?

The team is extremely slow and predictable with average players and he seems too stubborn to change. Discuss

[notthesun]

Is Vanney a good coach or does he need good players in order to be a good coach?

The team is extremely slow and predictable with average players and he seems too stubborn to change. Discuss

I would posit that generally any good coach needs good players to be a good coach.

Maybe Vanney can't elevate mediocre players as well as other coaches, but if all you have is mediocre players and a coach that can do that, at the end of the day you're still not winning anything, so it's kind of a moot point.

Vanney has coached some good games this season and some highly questionable ones. On the whole now the questionable ones are starting to rack up.

At the same time we have to acknowledge the squad we've left him with here until the summer is laughably thin. This is not an easy situation to navigate. I think he has to change something out there but it's not like there are tons of options for him. Just as an example, I have no doubt he would love to bench Delgado and challenge him by bringing someone into his role to start, but there's literally no good options. Chapman isn't good enough defensively and Fraser isn't good enough offensively or mobile enough for that position.

[DinamoTFC]

I agree good points.

I was really hoping he would finally play with 2 strikers today because Hamilton has been invisible every game he's played as a lone striker.

I also thought Deleon was playing well and aggressive and don't know how he came off but Delgado is still on the pitch.

The last thing I want to mention is that our players are terrified of the net, they refuse to shoot and only want to walk the ball into the net (they did attempt more today but they were bad attempts).

[Oldtimer]

Is Vanney a good coach or does he need good players in order to be a good coach?

The team is extremely slow and predictable with average players and he seems too stubborn to change. Discuss

I think Vanney is the type of coach who has an ideal system that he needs quality players for. It's technical and needs players who have a good sense of position. He doesn't have enough of those players with various departures (and not just our DPs).

One solution is to get him the players he needs. Curtis so far has failed to do this.

Another solution, especially if (1) MLSE has actually decided to majorly cut costs and won't be getting those players or if (2) they are keeping Curtis and he'll fail getting those players is to replace Vanney with a pragmatic coach who wins playing ugly games with mediocre players. There's a few MLS coaches who manage to play that game. We won't look like Barcelona but we might win more marginal games.

I favour getting better players because I would like us to follow the vision of "being great."

[noimpactinmtl]

Is Vanney a good coach or does he need good players in order to be a good coach?

The team is extremely slow and predictable with average players and he seems too stubborn to change. Discuss

Its true for every coach in the world. If their roster is terrible, then they’re not going to succeed.

Tonight was not on Vanney. We outshot DC United 20-3. We kept the ball in their third for stretches at a time. A coach is helpless when nobody can finish and teams just cue in on Pozuelo knowing there’s no one else that can threaten their backline.

[shwade]

We don't have the worst squad in MLS - if the manager can't tweak the style to the players he has is he a good manager?

[OgtheDim]

We are also not playing the worst of any squad in MLS.

That we have not had a good finisher baring Koovs, DeRo, Osorio, VV, Seba & Jozy is as mind baffling as our inability to grow a defender since Maurice Edu.

[stegosaurus]

I think Vanney is the type of coach who has an ideal system that he needs quality players for. It's technical and needs players who have a good sense of position. He doesn't have enough of those players with various departures (and not just our DPs).

One solution is to get him the players he needs. Curtis so far has failed to do this.

Another solution, especially if (1) MLSE has actually decided to majorly cut costs and won't be getting those players or if (2) they are keeping Curtis and he'll fail getting those players is to replace Vanney with a pragmatic coach who wins playing ugly games with mediocre players. There's a few MLS coaches who manage to play that game. We won't look like Barcelona but we might win more marginal games.

I favour getting better players because I would like us to follow the vision of "being great."

I’m of the same opinion. We don’t have the players Vanney needs to play the system he wants, but Vanney also isn’t adapting when necessary.

He doesn’t have the players to adapt, nor does he have the ones to play his possession system. We’re stuck with a bunch of slow, narrow players and no firepower up front.

At the start of the season, some of us figured that outscoring the opposition every game wasn’t going to be sustainable, and it wasn’t. We’re also really struggling with depth when a key player is injured, and we’re back to not being able to break down parked buses.

Early on in the season it was “goals will come” and “we don’t get many shots, but the ones we do go in the goal.” Now the PPG has dried up, the goals have dried up, and even with a zillion chances they can put it in the net from open play.

Without Jozy we lack offensive consistency. Without Moor we lack defensive consistency. Hate to see what happens if Pozo goes down.

If we make good signings in the summer it could turn the team around, but Curtis honestly wasted time and tugged our chain so I don’t trust the FO to get it done. We certainly need to not blow every game up until that point though.

Same story: either buy Vanney the players he needs, have Vanney switch up the system, or bring in someone to play with the players you intend to bring in.

Just an aside: the broadcast quoted Vanney as saying “possession with a purpose” again, only for us to end up with 71% possession, 662 accurate passes with a pass completion of 89%, and 35 shots...

With no end product.

Even if we were the least lucky team in the world, that has to be infuriating for Vanney.

[Yohan]

https://www.mlssoccer.com/post/2019/05/16/greg-vanney-toronto-fc-need-more-firepower-without-jozy-altidore

I have a feeling either Vanney or Curtis is going to get sacked by the summer.

Curtis is Vanney's boss, but Vanney wasn't hired by Curtis. There's going to be friction between the two

[ag futbol]

https://www.mlssoccer.com/post/2019/05/16/greg-vanney-toronto-fc-need-more-firepower-without-jozy-altidore

I have a feeling either Vanney or Curtis is going to get sacked by the summer.

Curtis is Vanney's boss, but Vanney wasn't hired by Curtis. There's going to be friction between the two
While neither is perfect, I would be 100% in Vanney’s corner here.

[notthesun]

Outside of him slapping Manning across the face, 0% chance Curtis doesn't last the year.

[James17930]

I’m of the same opinion. We don’t have the players Vanney needs to play the system he wants, but Vanney also isn’t adapting when necessary.

He doesn’t have the players to adapt, nor does he have the ones to play his possession system. We’re stuck with a bunch of slow, narrow players and no firepower up front.

At the start of the season, some of us figured that outscoring the opposition every game wasn’t going to be sustainable, and it wasn’t. We’re also really struggling with depth when a key player is injured, and we’re back to not being able to break down parked buses.

Early on in the season it was “goals will come” and “we don’t get many shots, but the ones we do go in the goal.” Now the PPG has dried up, the goals have dried up, and even with a zillion chances they can put it in the net from open play.

Without Jozy we lack offensive consistency. Without Moor we lack defensive consistency. Hate to see what happens if Pozo goes down.

If we make good signings in the summer it could turn the team around, but Curtis honestly wasted time and tugged our chain so I don’t trust the FO to get it done. We certainly need to not blow every game up until that point though.

Same story: either buy Vanney the players he needs, have Vanney switch up the system, or bring in someone to play with the players you intend to bring in.

Just an aside: the broadcast quoted Vanney as saying “possession with a purpose” again, only for us to end up with 71% possession, 662 accurate passes with a pass completion of 89%, and 35 shots...

With no end product.

Even if we were the least lucky team in the world, that has to be infuriating for Vanney.

To be fair, DC bunkered to a ridiculous extent, moreso than I've maybe ever seen before. I mean, Mavinga was making runs for crying out loud.

I'm not sure we could have scored even with Jozy and/or Giovinco.

[David_Oliveira]

In regards to the DC United game. Put yourself in Vanney's shoes. Imagine seeing you team dominate possession and just can't get it done with the XI on the field. You know you need to change someone. You look to your bench and you see Terrance Fucking Boyd. What exactly is the man supposed to do? With the squad he has, how is he supposed to adapt/change the formation to make it work?

Say you're Pozuelo. You're playing AM and are tasked to move the ball forward. You dribble through two or three DCU players and are looking to make that last pass to break the striker through the defense. You look up and you see Hamilton and Boyd up there. How the hell are you supposed to advance the ball that way?

I really think FO has really set him up for failure and it all started with Bez. Let's not forget that most of the current squad has been built by him. He is gone now and there is no repercussions for him. This new FO could have helped out the squad this past transfer window. They chose/believe that they'll have more/better options in the summer transfer window. I'm sure they did an analysis to determine the points they'll get until the window opens and I'm sure they think that they can manage until then. I just hope that they are right.

[Oldtimer]

https://www.mlssoccer.com/post/2019/05/16/greg-vanney-toronto-fc-need-more-firepower-without-jozy-altidore

I have a feeling either Vanney or Curtis is going to get sacked by the summer.

Curtis is Vanney's boss, but Vanney wasn't hired by Curtis. There's going to be friction between the two

If Curtis brings in some players in the summer, it will be OK. If he fails...

[stegosaurus]

To be fair, DC bunkered to a ridiculous extent, moreso than I've maybe ever seen before. I mean, Mavinga was making runs for crying out loud.

I'm not sure we could have scored even with Jozy and/or Giovinco.

I’m well aware of this.

That said, we broke down teams parking the bus numerous times in 2017.

[ensco]

Given the obvious exhaustion issue, and altitude, why didn’t we bunker yesterday?

DC played it perfectly. Play subs, bunker, if it's working put the stars back in to try and steal it on the counter

Instead we burn a guy like Pozo out, which increases the risk of things like two yellows...

[Auzzy]

Given the obvious exhaustion issue, and altitude, why didn’t we bunker yesterday?

DC played it perfectly. Play subs, bunker, if it's working put the stars back in to try and steal it on the counter

Instead we burn a guy like Pozo out, which increases the risk of things like two yellows...

Exactly! It's so bizarre. We were the opposite of bunker. There were situations where two of our CBs were in the opposing half.

I do wonder if we have the defenders to bunker well, especially yesterday... But the midfielders could help.

[ensco]

^It is frustrating to compare what we did in the Atlanta and SLC games with what DCU did in our game.

They did purposeful squad rotation, and still played for points.

What were we doing? We just flat out conceded the game against Atlanta, then we burned everyone out in a Don Quixote display in Salt Lake.

[MightyDM]

Given the obvious exhaustion issue, and altitude, why didn’t we bunker yesterday?

DC played it perfectly. Play subs, bunker, if it's working put the stars back in to try and steal it on the counter

Instead we burn a guy like Pozo out, which increases the risk of things like two yellows...
Exactly. The rotations have been totally weird. Why concede Atlanta?

[portu]

I do not foresee Vanney (or anyone for that matter) getting sacked. The only way that happens is if we miss the playoffs, which is going to be near impossible since the majority of teams make the playoffs now. Even then, if we miss the playoffs I can just hear the excuses of injury or not being able to get in players in the spring. It feels like these guys are truly bomb-proof.

Last year, I think I might of said that I don't think Vanney will leave unless Bez is gone. This year, after a total fucking joke of a CCL performance, followed by consistent mediocrity in the league and no fire beginning to develop under Vanney's seat at BMO, I just don't see him leaving. It would really have to be quite a catastrophe in my opinion.

[Ultra & Proud]

I just don't see him leaving. It would really have to be quite a catastrophe in my opinion.
We're working on it.

[reggie]

wait and see how ugly its going to get for those 4 or 5 games during the gold cup

[shwade]

I do not foresee Vanney (or anyone for that matter) getting sacked. The only way that happens is if we miss the playoffs, which is going to be near impossible since the majority of teams make the playoffs now. Even then, if we miss the playoffs I can just hear the excuses of injury or not being able to get in players in the spring. It feels like these guys are truly bomb-proof.

Last year, I think I might of said that I don't think Vanney will leave unless Bez is gone. This year, after a total fucking joke of a CCL performance, followed by consistent mediocrity in the league and no fire beginning to develop under Vanney's seat at BMO, I just don't see him leaving. It would really have to be quite a catastrophe in my opinion.

We didn't make it last year without the Gold Cup depleting our only serviceable players, there's no way we make it this year without any significant additions in the summer. The attitude is just bizarre - like they've already written this season off.

[Areathrasher]

I've backed Vanney to the hilt over the years. He's a good coach and I he approaches the game in a way i admire. I like the way he thinks and speaks about the game.

Having said all that. I think it might be time for him to go.

If you are going to keep a coach long-long term there needs to be significant roster turn over every few years so the players are always fresh with the coach. If you are going to keep consistency with the roster and not make moves then you have to look at getting a new coach in to freshen things up. Everything is so pedestrian, languid etc etc at the moment, certain players look like they dont give a shit. I dont think Vanney can snap them out of this.

I havent articulated my points very well here but I keep thinking about how Fergie would talk about moving big names out and bringing in younger hungrier players to keep things fresh and moving forward. Essentially so the players wouldn't go stale on him.

Having said all that, the prospect of Curtis & Manning making a coaching hire scares the shit out of me.

[ag futbol]

Having said all that, the prospect of Curtis & Manning making a coaching hire scares the shit out of me.
It’s only a matter of time until Curtis brings in his own guy. Someone with MLS experience. Someone with the same eye for talent he has and with experience from the RBNY Organization. He might not be working right now but neither was Curtis before he came here.

The new guy knows how to turn it around and just one (more) transfer window is all it takes. He’s never been deal-shy either, the perfect candidate….

TFC’s new coach:
https://tinyurl.com/y4b9r7gv

[Auzzy]

It’s only a matter of time until Curtis brings in his own guy. Someone with MLS experience. Someone with the same eye for talent he has and with experience from the RBNY Organization. He might not be working right now but neither was Curtis before he came here.

The new guy knows how to turn it around and just one (more) transfer window is all it takes. He’s never been deal-shy either, the perfect candidate….

TFC’s new coach:
https://tinyurl.com/y4b9r7gv

Just need 4 or 5 guys...

[Oldtimer]

The new guy knows how to turn it around and just one (more) transfer window is all it takes. He’s never been deal-shy either, the perfect candidate….

TFC’s new coach:
https://tinyurl.com/y4b9r7gv

People have been suggesting that we need to blow up the team, this guy could certainly do that.

[ag futbol]

Just need 4 or 5 guys...
And he’d get that done in one window easy. Always making deals...

[OgtheDim]

This team as it currently sits mentally does not know how to beat teams. That first goal in RSL is inexcusable. Yes, Vanney called it out as amateur. But the place to stop that is on the training ground.

Getting in 2-3 players in the next window isn't going to change the fact that this team is a group of individuals who do not try hard enough & does not have a system that provides the comfort zone that allows them to succeed.


As anybody who has read my posts in here knows, I like Vanney. I think he is one of the better tacticians in this league, one of the better coaches & wants to play a brand of soccer I enjoy. But...



Like all coaches in this league, you prep for the next season starting in October/November. I believe he went into 2019 back in late December with the mindset that we were going to have Seba & VV & be playing a 3-5-2 / 4-4-2.

He thought, and the brain trust thought, that Laurent Ciman was the answer to the back woes. He saw width coming from DeLeon & a player to hopefully come in that window. Well, Ciman has proven to be not enough & the width isn't there.

Then, when VV left & Seba left, I think he had to adjust on the fly & made a poor choice to go for an attacking plan 4-3-3 / 4-1-4-1 rather than refocus on defensive stability in a true 4-2-3-1 where the DM's were locked down into a system of support & went with a defensive first mentality.

We are trying really hard to recreate the attacking prowess of 2017 TFC when we really should be focusing on recreating the defensive prowess of 2017 TFC. I'm seeing a system of late when we go up in attack - there is less of the pass the ball around the back mentality. It is obvious they have worked on it in training but these guys like attack so of course they would do that. It is really hard midseason to focus on defence but the training sessions moving forward have to start doing that. There has to be a system for defence in place - we can't be all about what we do with the ball. The days of "well Drew will tell us where to go" are over. This should mean benching a few players who currently start but there is something about all this that indicates to me that certain players know how to go really well in training without thinking about how to play defensively in games - this is on the coaching staff.

I think the brain trust gives Vanney until sometime in August to turn things around. BUT......if that happens, be prepared for not much to change until 2020 when Curtis' changes finally come through. The heir apparent is Robin Fraser who is both a Curtis man & a Vanney man - unless he goes to Cinci, he is likely to be the coach in 2020 if things do not change.

[paul-collins]

We are trying really hard to recreate the attacking prowess of 2017 TFC when we really should be focusing on recreating the defensive prowess of 2017 TFC.
We've given up 20 goals already in less than 1/3 of the season, in 2017 we gave up 37 over the whole league season.

[Ultra & Proud]

This team as it currently sits mentally does not know how to beat teams. That first goal in RSL is inexcusable. Yes, Vanney called it out as amateur. But the place to stop that is on the training ground.

Getting in 2-3 players in the next window isn't going to change the fact that this team is a group of individuals who do not try hard enough & does not have a system that provides the comfort zone that allows them to succeed.


As anybody who has read my posts in here knows, I like Vanney. I think he is one of the better tacticians in this league, one of the better coaches & wants to play a brand of soccer I enjoy. But...



Like all coaches in this league, you prep for the next season starting in October/November. I believe he went into 2019 back in late December with the mindset that we were going to have Seba & VV & be playing a 3-5-2 / 4-4-2.

He thought, and the brain trust thought, that Laurent Ciman was the answer to the back woes. He saw width coming from DeLeon & a player to hopefully come in that window. Well, Ciman has proven to be not enough & the width isn't there.

Then, when VV left & Seba left, I think he had to adjust on the fly & made a poor choice to go for an attacking plan 4-3-3 / 4-1-4-1 rather than refocus on defensive stability in a true 4-2-3-1 where the DM's were locked down into a system of support & went with a defensive first mentality.

We are trying really hard to recreate the attacking prowess of 2017 TFC when we really should be focusing on recreating the defensive prowess of 2017 TFC. I'm seeing a system of late when we go up in attack - there is less of the pass the ball around the back mentality. It is obvious they have worked on it in training but these guys like attack so of course they would do that. It is really hard midseason to focus on defence but the training sessions moving forward have to start doing that. There has to be a system for defence in place - we can't be all about what we do with the ball. The days of "well Drew will tell us where to go" are over. This should mean benching a few players who currently start but there is something about all this that indicates to me that certain players know how to go really well in training without thinking about how to play defensively in games - this is on the coaching staff.

I think the brain trust gives Vanney until sometime in August to turn things around. BUT......if that happens, be prepared for not much to change until 2020 when Curtis' changes finally come through. The heir apparent is Robin Fraser who is both a Curtis man & a Vanney man - unless he goes to Cinci, he is likely to be the coach in 2020 if things do not change.
Agree with all this.

I said it earlier that our talent is level is superior to a lot of other MLS teams who are doing average to 'good' (VWC, Orlando, Chicago, RSL, etc). The difference is that they are being coached and set up better than we are. They are adapting to the situations whereas we are 'going to play our game', even when it obviously is failing. Even worse is that I watched some of the shittier matches on the weekend and every team's defense has a defined shape and they are for the most part, hard to break down. There are boner plays for sure but you can see the organization in place. With us, it's all over the place. Guys are losing their man, getting wrong sided, pinching way too high, not keeping a good line, etc.

[Oldtimer]

Agree with all this.

I said it earlier that our talent is level is superior to a lot of other MLS teams who are doing average to 'good' (VWC, Orlando, Chicago, RSL, etc). The difference is that they are being coached and set up better than we are. They are adapting to the situations whereas we are 'going to play our game', even when it obviously is failing. Even worse is that I watched some of the shittier matches on the weekend and every team's defense has a defined shape and they are for the most part, hard to break down. There are boner plays for sure but you can see the organization in place. With us, it's all over the place. Guys are losing their man, getting wrong sided, pinching way too high, not keeping a good line, etc.

Actually, if you look at the LA Galaxy, their defense has exactly the same issues ours has... and they play a very similar style. Their defense is quite porous. The difference is that they have better defenders who manage to recover more often from the inevitable breakdowns on transition plus on offense they have more than one goal scorer.

So if you are missing the players for your system, why not be pragmatic and mix up the system? Vanney did that two years ago, why not now?

[portu]

Isn't Fraser basically cut from the same cloth as Vanney? If we need fresh ideas, promoting from within makes no sense. I could see him as interim if things with Vanney became untenable and there was no quick solution, but full time?

[Auzzy]

This could also go in the transfers thread, or in the Manning or Curtis threads, but:

In the Steve Buffery article from yesterday, Vanney mentions again that they need some wide speedy players, and that they've needed them for a while. Unfortunate that FO couldn't get that figured out over multiple transfer windows.

HOWEVER, Vanney also admits that Akinola has played that wide role for the US youth teams, yet he sees him more as a forward.

Well... Notwithstanding that I think Manning / Bez / Curtis should have done better over the time they had...

Maybe it's time for Vanney to come down from his ivory tower, realize that Akinola might be an improvement on the wing over other players he's plugged in there; or better than not having any width at all (which is how they sometimes play). Why not give it a try for a couple games? Now Akinola is injured, but perhaps soon?

https://torontosun.com/sports/soccer/mls/toronto-fc/buffery-if-toronto-fc-had-a-quality-winger-itd-probably-win-more-games

[Ultra & Proud]

Vanney also admits that Akinola has played that wide role for the US youth teams, yet he sees him more as a forward.

Well... Notwithstanding that I think Manning / Bez / Curtis should have done better over the time they had...

Maybe it's time for Vanney to come down from his ivory tower, realize that Akinola might be an improvement on the wing over other players he's plugged in there; or better than not having any width at all (which is how they sometimes play). Why not give it a try for a couple games? Now Akinola is injured, but perhaps soon?

https://torontosun.com/sports/soccer/mls/toronto-fc/buffery-if-toronto-fc-had-a-quality-winger-itd-probably-win-more-games
I wondered about this myself because Akinola looked good for the U20's at this position. Sure, maybe see him as the poaching forward too but right now while we're hurting why wouldn't we use an available (pre-injury) piece with experience in that position?

[jloome]

I wondered about this myself because Akinola looked good for the U20's at this position. Sure, maybe see him as the poaching forward too but right now while we're hurting why wouldn't we use an available (pre-injury) piece with experience in that position?

So we're currently at two wins in our last twelve games. I suspect he will not be here after the All-Star break unless we see something dramatic in the next few weeks.

[OgtheDim]

The playoffs & Voyageurs is what Vanney is being judged by & even then unless we crap out in the first round we play in the Voyageurs', Vanney is not getting fired over that.

He's here until we don't make the playoffs.


(twitter TFC is not running this team)

[Oldtimer]

So we're currently at two wins in our last twelve games. I suspect he will not be here after the All-Star break unless we see something dramatic in the next few weeks.

Akinola or Vanney?

I don't see anything happening to Vanney until after he's been given the players that he was supposed to get earlier this year.

[stegosaurus]

Akinola or Vanney?

I don't see anything happening to Vanney until after he's been given the players that he was supposed to get earlier this year.

With Berhalter floundering in the USMNT spot I can see Vanney headed there if we don’t make the playoffs this season.

[OgtheDim]

USMNT Twittter isn't in charge either

[Oldtimer]

With Berhalter floundering in the USMNT spot I can see Vanney headed there if we don’t make the playoffs this season.

I don't see Berhalter being moved out soon. Usually they give their NT coaches more time to hang themselves. Look how long Klinsmann stuck around.

You do have a point about Vanney being in line for coaching their national team. A lot of people here (and even more on Twitter) seem to think the team won the treble despite Vanney. He has a very different reputation in the US as a highly respected coach. It's his most likely move after TFC, and I think he'd do really well not being hampered by salary budgets or a GM who may or may not be on side.

[ag futbol]

With Berhalter floundering in the USMNT spot I can see Vanney headed there if we don’t make the playoffs this season.
Maybe as an assistant or as a coach of a youth team.

For the top spot? I question how a guy who basically only plays football in a distinctly stylistic bent fits with a team that will inevitably have to play against stronger opposition.

But then again maybe that’s US soccer in a nutshell right now. Rather celebrate how far they’ve come over the years and acknowledge how much further there is to go to get to the top, there seems to be this belief that they’ve arrived and should be able to punch weight with the top teams right away. So rather than a pragmatist it will be someone who “gets the most out of the players” and is aspirational.

I hope they do it. Get the popcorn ready.

[stegosaurus]

I don't see Berhalter being moved out soon. Usually they give their NT coaches more time to hang themselves. Look how long Klinsmann stuck around.

You do have a point about Vanney being in line for coaching their national team. A lot of people here (and even more on Twitter) seem to think the team won the treble despite Vanney. He has a very different reputation in the US as a highly respected coach. It's his most likely move after TFC, and I think he'd do really well not being hampered by salary budgets or a GM who may or may not be on side.

I don’t think they’ll move Berhalter right away, but if he has a very poor Gold Cup I wouldn’t count on his job being incredibly secure.

I also don’t see a new GM wanting to keep Vanney around after another poor season, with or without resources. TFC hasn’t been on the management rollercoaster for a while and it’s pretty much the universal move for football clubs when the results aren’t what they’re looking for.

As much as I’m not #vanneyout, I don’t really see why the FO would want to keep him if he can’t turn the team around.

[Oldtimer]

As much as I’m not #vanneyout, I don’t really see why the FO would want to keep him if he can’t turn the team around.

It really depends on their intentions. There's no question Curtis will have his own guy to bring in waiting in the wings, but he may be happy enough with Vanney if they can work together to make a winning team (or he could be quietly undermining Vanney while pretending to support him like Mariner did with Winter).

The key question is will Vanney be given the players he needs to play his system (like he had in 2017)? Or will he flounder because they decide he has to work with what he has? Even the next CBA may play into the picture.

My feeling is that Manning is targeting 2020 with this year having turned into a partial rebuild. If he loses confidence that Vanney can turn it around next year then Vanney will be out. The decision will be Manning's, not Curtis's.

[OgtheDim]

About the waiting in the wings thing - I still think that is Robin Fraser - he was supposed to be going to Colorado a week ago & that seems to have been tamped down. I would not be surprised if he is Curtis' man.

[Oldtimer]

About the waiting in the wings thing - I still think that is Robin Fraser - he was supposed to be going to Colorado a week ago & that seems to have been tamped down. I would not be surprised if he is Curtis' man.

You may be right, he has a very good reputation.

A lot of people who want #VanneyOut would not be happy with that. Canadians or Americans don't make the cut. They want a foreign coach, preferably a "big name."

[OgtheDim]

A lot of people who want #VanneyOut would not be happy with that. Canadians or Americans don't make the cut. They want a foreign coach, preferably a "big name."

Some people really do need to look at what happens in most countries instead of relying upon what they see on TV each week.

[Ultra & Proud]

You may be right, he has a very good reputation.

A lot of people who want #VanneyOut would not be happy with that. Canadians or Americans don't make the cut. They want a foreign coach, preferably a "big name."
I wouldn't be happy with it but not for those reasons. If you're changing what we're doing then a new voice is needed. Fraser is more of a continuation.

As for wanting a foreign manager; pass. Seen enough of them fall flat to know they're not all Tatas.

[OgtheDim]

I wouldn't be happy with it but not for those reasons. If you're changing what we're doing then a new voice is needed. Fraser is more of a continuation.

...

I'm not sure the brain trust sees Vanney's approach as wrong. IF we don't make the playoffs, Vanney would be gone but I'm not certain they would see this was necessary due to policy as much as personality.

I also believe the brain trust think us missing the playoffs is unlikely IF they bring in the players they know the team needs - which is why talk of Vanny out right now is twitter echospeak.


I also think a lot of people are underrating how well the team played on Friday.

[Ultra & Proud]

I'm not sure the brain trust sees Vanney's approach as wrong. IF we don't make the playoffs, Vanney would be gone but I'm not certain they would see this was necessary due to policy as much as personality.

I also believe the brain trust think us missing the playoffs is unlikely IF they bring in the players they know the team needs - which is why talk of Vanny out right now is twitter echospeak.


I also think a lot of people are underrating how well the team played on Friday.

I don't think the approach is wrong or anything like that. I just think some of the players have tuned him out.

[ag futbol]

Some people really do need to look at what happens in most countries instead of relying upon what they see on TV each week.
What you think usually happens when a team in another league around the world puts up a record we have over the past ten games?

I can think of a lot of places where Vanney would be out of a job. So we’re more patient here (and I can appreciate that) but to tar-and-feather anyone who is even questioning his job security? Silly, and not exactly in-line with the what you’re claiming happens in most countries.

[portu]

About the waiting in the wings thing - I still think that is Robin Fraser - he was supposed to be going to Colorado a week ago & that seems to have been tamped down. I would not be surprised if he is Curtis' man.

I don't see Fraser as the guy. He's Vanney right hand man and is as a part of this dumpster fire as Vanney imo.

[OgtheDim]

What you think usually happens when a team in another league around the world puts up a record we have over the past ten games?

I can think of a lot of places where Vanney would be out of a job. So we’re more patient here (and I can appreciate that) but to tar-and-feather anyone who is even questioning his job security? Silly, and not exactly in-line with the what you’re claiming happens in most countries.


Most countries are not EPL, Serie A or Bundesliga or La Liga. As I said, look at most countries beyond what people see on TV.

And I'm hardly tar & feathering. I'm making a point. A lot of the reddit/twitter discussion is based on what they see in Europe.

[ag futbol]

Most countries are not EPL, Serie A or Bundesliga or La Liga. As I said, look at most countries beyond what peopleu see on TV.

And I'm hardly tar & feathering. I'm making a point. A lot of the reddit/twitter discussion is based on what they see in Europe.
I think you're sadly mistaken if you see the leagues you've named as the height of impatience in world football. There are plenty of other examples around as well.

But, again, to fire your coach after 10 games of poor performance and coming off a disappointing season isn't exactly shocking in any league.

[MightyDM]

Still not sold on him but things are looking better. I still shudder at what this team would look like without Giovinco, he's without a doubt carrying us and making Vanney look good in the process.

Sorry to be a downer, but that's my perspective.

Interesting to read this stuff again. Relates to the now. Will forward the reply to this as well.

[MightyDM]

Being the best defensive team in MLS has little to do with Giovinco, and a lot to do with personnel and coaching.

Without Giovinco there would probably be more 0-0 draws.

Apparently they are 2-1 losses....

[MightyDM]

The interview on Saturday seemed to indicate that the diamond / 2-3-2-1-2 that was played against Montreal is the preferred offensive oriented route for this team. Lets see how we do against teams that can clog up the middle and have fast width - i.e. Portland and Dallas.

Interesting to go back about formation...

[Oldtimer]

I'm not sure the brain trust sees Vanney's approach as wrong. IF we don't make the playoffs, Vanney would be gone but I'm not certain they would see this was necessary due to policy as much as personality.

I'm not sure that Vanney would be gone if TFC missed the playoffs this year. We're used to previous regimes that wanted instant winning. We saw how that made TFC/Raptors/Leafs perpetual losers.

One thing that Tim L did was to bring in management for each team that thought much longer term than the season that passed. This strategy has been validated with TFC's treble and the Raptors run (and maybe soon championship).

Manning is an perfect example of a long term thinker. He'll evaluate Vanney based on whether he thinks he can succeed with their long-term vision. I think Vanney will fail if the strategy is "adapt to the players," because he's not flexible enough. I think he may well succeed again if the strategy is "get Vanney whatever he needs."

A note about fans, I think Vanney's personality is one that rubs Canadian fans the wrong way. We love emotional positive leaders (think how much TFC fans loved John Carver) and distrust cerebral unemotional types (this applies in politics as well). You can tell when he talks that Vanney is very intelligent and a keen student of the game, but he's not the warm guy that fans will warm up to.

For players though the personality needs are different. They need to feel led, but listened to. Be challenged but also respected. A great coach in that regard is a very nuanced thing and doesn't depend on whether you are chummy to everyone. It's difficult for us to know if Vanney does well at that or not. Sometimes players tune out their coaches. Sometimes they lose their heads in the heat of the moment. Lack of executing the coach's vision could be due to many factors.

[jabbronies]

I don't know why Vanney wanted to move away from the 3-5-2
When we were dominate in our Cup runs, it was on the back of that formation. We reverted to the diamond when teams hung back on us.

So as I write this, I'm coming to the realization of why he wants to go 4-3-3. If every teams sits back on us, we never play the 3-5-2....

[Ultra & Proud]

I don't know why Vanney wanted to move away from the 3-5-2
When we were dominate in our Cup runs, it was on the back of that formation. We reverted to the diamond when teams hung back on us.

So as I write this, I'm coming to the realization of why he wants to go 4-3-3. If every teams sits back on us, we never play the 3-5-2....

It makes sense to evolve with the league and what other teams are doing now but I am surprised we don't switch formations in match or try to surprise other teams with our tactics/set up anymore. Now it's just the same always even if it isn't working and/or we don't have the personnel to pull it off. Vanney isn't stupid so I am assuming he is treating the first half of the season like an extended training camp to get all the players, including the younger guys, drilled into this particular style and then when reinforcements (hopefully) show up in July we can do a good run out to the end of the season.

[jabbronies]

It makes sense to evolve with the league and what other teams are doing now but I am surprised we don't switch formations in match or try to surprise other teams with our tactics/set up anymore. Now it's just the same always even if it isn't working and/or we don't have the personnel to pull it off. Vanney isn't stupid so I am assuming he is treating the first half of the season like an extended training camp to get all the players, including the younger guys, drilled into this particular style and then when reinforcements (hopefully) show up in July we can do a good run out to the end of the season.


ya the Gold Cup break hopefully provides enough of gap to treat the second half of the season as a new start. The first half was a bit of a disaster. Injuries and lack of talent caused that. I just hope we get players back at 100% otherwise we will just be continuing where we left off.

[jloome]

You may be right, he has a very good reputation.

A lot of people who want #VanneyOut would not be happy with that. Canadians or Americans don't make the cut. They want a foreign coach, preferably a "big name."

I’m not seeing people calling routinely for a foreign coach. Who’s saying that?!? That’s an ancient refrain and a bit if a straw man, I think. People are calling him out for tactical inflexibility and his player selection.

Ignoring that someone’s pedigree or extraction influences their choices is to ignore part of who they are and why they do what they do. At the same time it is rarely a disqualifying factor as I think
most reasonable people realize.

[Oldtimer]

I’m not seeing people calling routinely for a foreign coach. Who’s saying that?!? That’s an ancient refrain and a bit if a straw man, I think. People are calling him out for tactical inflexibility and his player selection.

Don't you remember? It was huge on this very board when Vanney was named coach, and for months afterwards. It will come up again whenever he leaves.

The discussion right now is on whether Vanney should be fired, so people are discussing player selection and tactics.

I'm not saying anyone is saying right now "fire him because he's American," but it formed a big part in why some people rejected his hire, and winning the MLS Cup did not bring those who think we deserve a Mourinho or a Wenger or a Pep around because they (correctly) feel that MLSE has the cash to hire someone like those big names.

[Ultra & Proud]

Wenger lol.

[portu]

Don't you remember? It was huge on this very board when Vanney was named coach, and for months afterwards. It will come up again whenever he leaves.

The discussion right now is on whether Vanney should be fired, so people are discussing player selection and tactics.

I'm not saying anyone is saying right now "fire him because he's American," but it formed a big part in why some people rejected his hire, and winning the MLS Cup did not bring those who think we deserve a Mourinho or a Wenger or a Pep around because they (correctly) feel that MLSE has the cash to hire someone like those big names.

My issue with the Vanney hiring at the time was that he was given an interim tag and then promoted to full time after a shitty interim showing. Additionally the guy had no experience.

If Vanney goes I'm sticking with this evaluation of a hiring: experience and a recent history of winning.

[Areathrasher]

My issue with the Vanney hiring at the time was that he was given an interim tag and then promoted to full time after a shitty interim showing. Additionally the guy had no experience.

If Vanney goes I'm sticking with this evaluation of a hiring: experience and a recent history of winning.

No he wasn't.

[MightyDM]

My issue with the Vanney hiring at the time was that he was given an interim tag and then promoted to full time after a shitty interim showing. Additionally the guy had no experience.

If Vanney goes I'm sticking with this evaluation of a hiring: experience and a recent history of winning.

I think Vanney has done an excellent job as coach.

i opposed his hiring - he was tactically naive, said "we will be on the front foot from kickoff” with a group of players who couldn't do that, and as a result trailed almost every team 1-0 in the run to end his first season. I believed then, and believe now, that we would have been in the pussplops if Nelsen had remained for the rest of the year.

But he has proven me wrong. He has coached well, often adapted tactically, and most of all he won.

My concerns now are a little different - differential treatment of young canadians, lack of personnel, and constant injuries. The last two are on Manning/ Curtis and the training staff, respectively. On the first, its a blind spot but he is weak on their development. I don’t get it - Others have analysed it previously .

[portu]

No he wasn't.

Shit I dont know why I thought this, thanks for the catch. My point still stands re: winning experience though.

[jabbronies]

Shit I dont know why I thought this, thanks for the catch. My point still stands re: winning experience though.


Like who? Names of who you think would qualify for the TFC job if Vanney got sacked at the end of the Season.

[stegosaurus]

Like who? Names of who you think would qualify for the TFC job if Vanney got sacked at the end of the Season.

Are you implying there won’t be any coaches available at the end of this season or something?

[Areathrasher]

Filter as you wish https://www.transfermarkt.com/trainer/verfuegbaretrainer/statistik/?statistik=&plus=0

[stegosaurus]

Filter as you wish https://www.transfermarkt.com/trainer/verfuegbaretrainer/statistik/?statistik=&plus=0

Well, Henry was hanging around with Seba at the Raps game, so I guess that’s confirmation.

[Kamp Berg]

Wow, Monaco is on its third manager this year! The guy who took over from Henry only last 20 days!!

[stegosaurus]

Wow, Monaco is on its third manager this year! The guy who took over from Henry only last 20 days!!

Monaco was a trainwreck this year. They wanted Jardim back but have just been an absolute disaster in any case.

[Oldtimer]

Are you implying there won’t be any coaches available at the end of this season or something?

If you want "any" coach, Preki would probably love to move back to MLS. I think the question was a legitimate one, you don't really want any coach.

[Areathrasher]

If you want "any" coach, Preki would probably love to move back to MLS. I think the question was a legitimate one, you don't really want any coach.

He's already back. He's the assistant manager for the sounders.

[stegosaurus]

If you want "any" coach, Preki would probably love to move back to MLS. I think the question was a legitimate one, you don't really want any coach.

There are world-class, very good, and decent coaches available now, as there probably will be at the end of the season.

It’s not a question of getting “any” coach. Suggesting that there are no possible replacements, however, is a bit strange.

[ag futbol]

Are you implying there won’t be any coaches available at the end of this season or something?
Yeah, I don’t see suitable coaches for this league as some kind of scarce resource. We might not immediately know the names of potential candidates but that doesn’t mean they don’t exist (they most certainly do).

It’s just a function of knowing the market and what you’re looking for. Is anyone here really going to claim they spend their time scouring USL or other similarly unglamorous places to understand who might be a suitable MLS coach for domestic options? Or have their finger or what a reasonable non-domestic option might be?

Literally the club can define their ideal candidate as practically anything, so it’s impossible for us to guess.

Case and point would anyone have guessed or chose Vanney prior to Bez hiring him into the academy?

[Oldtimer]

There are world-class, very good, and decent coaches available now, as there probably will be at the end of the season.

It’s not a question of getting “any” coach. Suggesting that there are no possible replacements, however, is a bit strange.

Name one that would be willing to come to MLS. Too many fans live in an imaginary world where one of the top EPL/Spanish/Italian coaches will drop their chance to to be in the Champions League to coach Toronto. Not gonna happen. Not now, probably not ever. Even Alex Ferguson (who once wanted to immigrate to Canada - imagine that) isn't going to immigrate and come out of retirement to coach Toronto FC.

Now if by "top coach" you mean that you may dig someone up in the Norwegian second division I'll believe you. I'm not sure that would be an upgrade.

The foreign coaches who have come to MLS mostly have been up and coming assistants who wanted a chance to coach a first team, not "proven winners" which is what people want for any replacement.

[Oldtimer]

Yeah, I don’t see suitable coaches for this league as some kind of scarce resource. We might not immediately know the names of potential candidates but that doesn’t mean they don’t exist (they most certainly do).


I'm sure Curtis has someone ready to call should he (or more likely Manning) make that decision.

[stegosaurus]

Name one that would be willing to come to MLS. Too many fans live in an imaginary world where one of the top EPL/Spanish/Italian coaches will drop their chance to to be in the Champions League to coach Toronto. Not gonna happen. Not now, probably not ever. Even Alex Ferguson (who once wanted to immigrate to Canada - imagine that) isn't going to immigrate and come out of retirement to coach Toronto FC.

Now if by "top coach" you mean that you may dig someone up in the Norwegian second division I'll believe you. I'm not sure that would be an upgrade.

The foreign coaches who have come to MLS mostly have been up and coming assistants who wanted a chance to coach a first team, not "proven winners" which is what people want for any replacement.

Yeah, you’re definitely misreading something here. Where did I say a world class coach would come to Toronto FC? I just said there are plenty of managers available.

Would they come? Probably not.

That said, if your bag of money is big enough some are sure to. It’s the same principle that motivates players to come to MLS or go to China in the first place.

No one would come to MLS if we paid the same as elsewhere unless there was an ulterior motive.

[OgtheDim]

Replacement managers can be found but finding one willing to



come to MLS
to Toronto
where they are not fully in charge
to a place where the star building blocks for the next 2 years are already mostly chosen
one who fits a style of play Curtis & Manning are willing to work with
willing to communicate as much as MLS/MLSE expects


reduces the pool a lot.


I would hope Curtis & Manning have people in mind but the pool is a lot less then people think.

[jabbronies]

Are you implying there won’t be any coaches available at the end of this season or something?


This would be my answer as well


Replacement managers can be found but finding one willing to



come to MLS
to Toronto
where they are not fully in charge
to a place where the star building blocks for the next 2 years are already mostly chosen
one who fits a style of play Curtis & Manning are willing to work with
willing to communicate as much as MLS/MLSE expects

reduces the pool a lot.
I would hope Curtis & Manning have people in mind but the pool is a lot less then people think.

And if you are looking at past managers that have been successful in this league, Vanney isn't too far off from some of the other names that would be tossed around. I don't think You would be getting a superior replacement from that pool.

[MightyDM]

Suitable coaches, sure. Better than Vanney? Not so much. Look how hard it is to replace a Goal score like Seba. Lots of strikers out there too

[ag futbol]

Replacement managers can be found but finding one willing to



come to MLS
to Toronto
where they are not fully in charge
to a place where the star building blocks for the next 2 years are already mostly chosen
one who fits a style of play Curtis & Manning are willing to work with
willing to communicate as much as MLS/MLSE expects


reduces the pool a lot.


I would hope Curtis & Manning have people in mind but the pool is a lot less then people think.
This is quite slanted.

The club has facilities and a budget most other teams in this league do not. The city is very liveable compared to a lot of other markets (but maybe Columbus is appealing, what do I know?). We have nothing to indicate Manning and Curtis are going to demand their style of play be used (it certainly hasn’t changed much for Vanney). Almost nobody operates in a vacuum without different layers of management these days.

This is a top 10 (or more likely top 5) job for a MLS coach, easily.


Suitable coaches, sure. Better than Vanney? Not so much. Look how hard it is to replace a Goal score like Seba. Lots of strikers out there too
If you want the equivalent player you’ll have to spend equivalent money. If MLSE was willing to pony up the same cash they did when Giovinco first signed I don’t think this would be much of an issue.

[MightyDM]

This is quite slanted.

The club has facilities and a budget most other teams in this league do not. The city is very liveable compared to a lot of other markets (but maybe Columbus is appealing, what do I know?). We have nothing to indicate Manning and Curtis are going to demand their style of play be used (it certainly hasn’t changed much for Vanney). Almost nobody operates in a vacuum without different layers of management these days.

This is a top 10 (or more likely top 5) job for a MLS coach, easily.


If you want the equivalent player you’ll have to spend equivalent money. If MLSE was willing to pony up the same cash they did when Giovinco first signed I don’t think this would be much of an issue.

All I am saying is that in real life these kinds of changes are hard and unpredictable. No guarantees. So if you (TFC) want someone who doesn’t have Vanneys weaknesses, they might not have his strengths either.

[OgtheDim]

This is quite slanted.



Not really.


Slanted as in what occurs?


Not everybody wants to move to North America
Not everybody wants to come to a cold climate
Not everybody wants to manage in a place where they don't call the player acquisition shots
Not everybody wants to deal with a salary cap / DP league
Not everybody wants to play in a style Manning / Curtis who call the shots would work with
Not everybody wants to have to do (or can do) a press conference post game, interview mid game, 20 minute off record talk with TSN pundits 2 days before (not many people know about those), & 2 pressers at the training ground (I have a strong suspicion that MLSE would not accept a non-English speaking manager)

That's just reality.

There is a LOT of moving out of the comfort zone that comes with going to MLS from South America, Mexico or Europe.

******************************

So then we look within MLS circles

Who out there is available & as good as Vanney & willing to deal with not being top dog?

6 months ago, most of us would have said Porter - you seen how he is doing this season?


Who?


Probably a good assistant somewhere. Not exactly the name brand people would want.

[stegosaurus]

Not really.


Slanted as in what occurs?


Not everybody wants to move to North America
Not everybody wants to come to a cold climate
Not everybody wants to manage in a place where they don't call the player acquisition shots
Not everybody wants to deal with a salary cap / DP league
Not everybody wants to play in a style Manning / Curtis who call the shots would work with
Not everybody wants to have to do (or can do) a press conference post game, interview mid game, 20 minute off record talk with TSN pundits 2 days before (not many people know about those), & 2 pressers at the training ground (I have a strong suspicion that MLSE would not accept a non-English speaking manager)

That's just reality.

There is a LOT of moving out of the comfort zone that comes with going to MLS from South America, Mexico or Europe.

******************************

So then we look within MLS circles

Who out there is available & as good as Vanney & willing to deal with not being top dog?

6 months ago, most of us would have said Porter - you seen how he is doing this season?


Who?


Probably a good assistant somewhere. Not exactly the name brand people would want.

By that logic no one would ever go to the Chinese Super League. But sometimes they do.

[Areathrasher]

You all know there are plenty of clubs/cities in Europe where its cold as shit in winter and you play under a sporting director/DOF?

Also, no coach in South America has direct control over the roster.

[Ultra & Proud]

I still say whenever Vanney leaves his position, if Curtis is still here, then the next manager is someone from the NYRB system past or present.

[Areathrasher]

I still say whenever Vanney leaves his position, if Curtis is still here, then the next manager is someone from the NYRB system past or present.

It'll be a MLS lifer

[ag futbol]

You all know there are plenty of clubs/cities in Europe where its cold as shit in winter and you play under a sporting director/DOF?

Also, no coach in South America has direct control over the roster.
Thank you. It's not a stretch to say it's a big world and there are potential candidates at any given time. If we move on it's not like we're looking for the next coach of Manchester United here.

To be clear, think Vanney did a great job for a few years. However, at this point i feel like the requirements of the coach have changed and maybe the players have tuned him out a bit. New scenery could be good for both parties.

[jloome]

Thank you. It's not a stretch to say it's a big world and there are potential candidates at any given time. If we move on it's not like we're looking for the next coach of Manchester United here.

To be clear, think Vanney did a great job for a few years. However, at this point i feel like the requirements of the coach have changed and maybe the players have tuned him out a bit. New scenery could be good for both parties.

Atlanta got Tata, nyfc got Vieira. The
league is obviously becoming now attractive to significant coaching talent. If it’s there
when we have to hire, why Not hire it. Maybe the issue with foreign coaches wasn’t the arcane system but the lack of talent at coaching

[noimpactinmtl]

Atlanta got Tata, nyfc got Vieira. The
league is obviously becoming now attractive to significant coaching talent. If it’s there
when we have to hire, why Not hire it. Maybe the issue with foreign coaches wasn’t the arcane system but the lack of talent at coaching

Neither Tata nor Vieira had to study the dark arts of MLS roster rules and how it relate to transfers. They also bounced off a couple of years after when a bigger opportunity found itself. The type of coaches from overseas that want to come here has ambitions to use MLS teams as a launch point for bigger clubs elsewhere.

It's a big reason why the manager system failed in the past. Most coaches who are former players have zero qualifications that would allow them to transfer any skills from the pitch into an office setting.

[stegosaurus]

Neither Tata nor Vieira had to study the dark arts of MLS roster rules and how it relate to transfers. They also bounced off a couple of years after when a bigger opportunity found itself. The type of coaches from overseas that want to come here has ambitions to use MLS teams as a launch point for bigger clubs elsewhere.

It's a big reason why the manager system failed in the past. Most coaches who are former players have zero qualifications that would allow them to transfer any skills from the pitch into an office setting.

The coach shouldn’t have to study arcane MLS rules — that’s the job of the GM.

In Europe the coaches don’t really sign anyone either. They also don’t know what is required to comply with FFP or how to deal with fax machines or whatever.

[portu]

I'll believe an argument that decent - even good - foreign managers won't come here when either MLSE goes broke or they stop going to China, Saudi, etcetera.

The only way a foreigner doesn't coach this team is if the FO decides against it (or fails to explore it).

[Oldtimer]

Strangely enough, with Nick Nurse leading the Raptors to win the NBA, we now have had two MLSE teams win their respective leagues with coaches who did not have any first team experience of being a head coach.

While I'd love having a big name coach for the notoriety (I think Wenger would do particularly well in MLS), maybe there are intangibles that a good GM can find in a less experienced coach that predicts success. Certainly Vanney deserves credit for his part in winning with a strong team, even if he has struggled somewhat recently with getting a weaker team on point.

[ensco]

Strangely enough, with Nick Nurse leading the Raptors to win the NBA, we now have had two MLSE teams win their respective leagues with coaches who did not have any first team experience of being a head coach.

While I'd love having a big name coach for the notoriety (I think Wenger would do particularly well in MLS), maybe there are intangibles that a good GM can find in a less experienced coach that predicts success. Certainly Vanney deserves credit for his part in winning with a strong team, even if he has struggled somewhat recently with getting a weaker team on point.

Good observation.

Coaches matter a lot less than people think in most sports (I think football may be the exception)

[OgtheDim]

In 2015, Sebastian Giovinco arrived, along with Jozy Altidore & those 2, along with Bradley, changed the mindset of this team. We were not going to settle. We were going to win.

The key to that team winning was getting the ball into the creative players & watching them do their magic - Bradley moving the ball around the back, Seba taking it on & Jozy finishing when Seba didn't. And a LOT of that creative work & heavy lifting & shooting was done by Seba

2015 Seba 22 goals 15 assists
2016 17 goals 14 assists
2017 16 goals 6 assists
2018 13 goals 8 assists


At one point, they brought in Vasquez & he was able to provide that technical ability.

And when you've got Seba & Victor & Jozy, you just give them the ball. Heck, Seba demanded it. And so this team got used to just that. When you have the ball out wide, look for Seba or Jozy. When you have the ball near the box, look for Seba or Jozy. When you have the ball ANYWHERE, look for Victor or Seba or Jozy. And God help the player that did not feed Seba.

The only guy that seemed willing to break into this triumverate of "give them the ball" was Osorio. The rest of them never gave themselves the chance, never were given the chance & never did take the opportunities to take a shot, to make that run, to receive that pass if they did a run. Only Osorio showed a willingness to do those things. We saw games where NOBODY ran, nobody tried a shot, nobody tried a pass because Seba & VV wasn't there. Sure, guys didn't trust people not named Seba, Victor, Jozy or Osorio to get a pass but that didn't matter because those 4 were around & they would figure out a way.

And then we come to preseason 2019.


I still maintain that the brain trust thought through November & December while doing their planning that the team were going to keep both Seba & Victor. So, you go into spring training thinking, "Hey, we don't need to work on shooting or creating chances or taking risks or playing the ball to runners other then the creatives because...they are going to be there."

And then

BOOM

Victor is injured & has an opportunity so he's gone

then a couple of weeks later near the end of training camp for the CCL

BOOM BOOM

Seba wants to talk, his demands are too high for the team, he has an offer & he goes.

Suddenly this team has lost 2 guys that ALL of them, from the President on down, thought were going to be around to carry that load of being that creative on the pitch.

QUICK
Sign Jozy

QUICK
Get another creative in

But wait....Jozy needs service.

And Pozuelo needs somebody to make some runs.

So a team that for years had no width, had no speed, had guile only in a few & used the brute strength of Jozy & the artistry of VV & Seba with the occasional addition of Osorio....now that team had to find a way to attack. Unfortunately, we had the false dawn of the NYC game where everybody thought Pozuelo was going to murder this league all season on his own - turns out that was just NYC giving him space - something nobody has done since. But, that false dawn allowed the rest of the team not named Osorio to say "oh, he's the new Seba - just feed Poz". Now thankfully there is one guy out there not doing this but as much as I like DeLeon, he can only do so much. So we end up with a "feed the Poz" machine couple with a "lets get it up there & just stop" approach.

This

THIS is on the coach


You simply can NOT let a team do this. Now, Vanney has said time & time again "We are not moving the ball quick enough. Not making the runs. Not making the passes." At some point though, its HIS responsibility to yell at them enough to get it through their noggins that they all have to try to play with pace, to make the passes, to try. I get it, the preseason time to make this adjustment didn't happen.

BUT, its time that somebody told them that they HAVE TO BEGIN TO TRUST PEOPLE NOT NAMED JOZY OR OSORIO OR POZUELO WITH GETTING A PASS. (the funny thing is Pozuelo trusts others and when players decide to make those runs, he gives them the ball - just not enough of them making those runs)

Vanney has to get a consistant attacking system in place for this team. He didn't have to do one before but he has to now.

And as much as people, including me, say we are not good enough due to our defence, and its true - our defence is slow, reactive, does not think as defenders & the rest of the team not named Bradley seems to have given up on trying to defend - the biggest issue with the coach is not the defence - its the lack of a systemic approach to attack that actually tries something when the ball is not in the hands of the few technical players.

Sure, a wide attacking player might help in this regard. But its still not get Bradley & Fraser & Chapman & Delgado to try a ball into a forward or to take a shot from distance.

If Vanney is going to stay next season (and that only happens if we somehow manage to make the playoffs), he HAS to fix this. He should fix it now, but I think the players have too many excuses in their heads about outside things to not see what is going on on the pitch.



Edit:

And you know what, we actually DID that versus SKC. And versus San Jose. So its not like this team can't do it. It just need to get it through their thick skulls that they can do that ALL GAME LONG & in every game.

[jloome]

In 2015, Sebastian Giovinco arrived, along with Jozy Altidore & those 2, along with Bradley, changed the mindset of this team. We were not going to settle. We were going to win.

The key to that team winning was getting the ball into the creative players & watching them do their magic - Bradley moving the ball around the back, Seba taking it on & Jozy finishing when Seba didn't. And a LOT of that creative work & heavy lifting & shooting was done by Seba

2015 Seba 22 goals 15 assists
2016 17 goals 14 assists
2017 16 goals 6 assists
2018 13 goals 8 assists


At one point, they brought in Vasquez & he was able to provide that technical ability.

And when you've got Seba & Victor & Jozy, you just give them the ball. Heck, Seba demanded it. And so this team got used to just that. When you have the ball out wide, look for Seba or Jozy. When you have the ball near the box, look for Seba or Jozy. When you have the ball ANYWHERE, look for Victor or Seba or Jozy. And God help the player that did not feed Seba.

The only guy that seemed willing to break into this triumverate of "give them the ball" was Osorio. The rest of them never gave themselves the chance, never were given the chance & never did take the opportunities to take a shot, to make that run, to receive that pass if they did a run. Only Osorio showed a willingness to do those things. We saw games where NOBODY ran, nobody tried a shot, nobody tried a pass because Seba & VV wasn't there. Sure, guys didn't trust people not named Seba, Victor, Jozy or Osorio to get a pass but that didn't matter because those 4 were around & they would figure out a way.

And then we come to preseason 2019.


I still maintain that the brain trust thought through November & December while doing their planning that the team were going to keep both Seba & Victor. So, you go into spring training thinking, "Hey, we don't need to work on shooting or creating chances or taking risks or playing the ball to runners other then the creatives because...they are going to be there."

And then

BOOM

Victor is injured & has an opportunity so he's gone

then a couple of weeks later near the end of training camp for the CCL

BOOM BOOM

Seba wants to talk, his demands are too high for the team, he has an offer & he goes.

Suddenly this team has lost 2 guys that ALL of them, from the President on down, thought were going to be around to carry that load of being that creative on the pitch.

QUICK
Sign Jozy

QUICK
Get another creative in

But wait....Jozy needs service.

And Pozuelo needs somebody to make some runs.

So a team that for years had no width, had no speed, had guile only in a few & used the brute strength of Jozy & the artistry of VV & Seba with the occasional addition of Osorio....now that team had to find a way to attack. Unfortunately, we had the false dawn of the NYC game where everybody thought Pozuelo was going to murder this league all season on his own - turns out that was just NYC giving him space - something nobody has done since. But, that false dawn allowed the rest of the team not named Osorio to say "oh, he's the new Seba - just feed Poz". Now thankfully there is one guy out there not doing this but as much as I like DeLeon, he can only do so much. So we end up with a "feed the Poz" machine couple with a "lets get it up there & just stop" approach.

This

THIS is on the coach


You simply can NOT let a team do this. Now, Vanney has said time & time again "We are not moving the ball quick enough. Not making the runs. Not making the passes." At some point though, its HIS responsibility to yell at them enough to get it through their noggins that they all have to try to play with pace, to make the passes, to try. I get it, the preseason time to make this adjustment didn't happen.

BUT, its time that somebody told them that they HAVE TO BEGIN TO TRUST PEOPLE NOT NAMED JOZY OR OSORIO OR POZUELO WITH GETTING A PASS. (the funny thing is Pozuelo trusts others and when players decide to make those runs, he gives them the ball - just not enough of them making those runs)

Vanney has to get a consistant attacking system in place for this team. He didn't have to do one before but he has to now.

And as much as people, including me, say we are not good enough due to our defence, and its true - our defence is slow, reactive, does not think as defenders & the rest of the team not named Bradley seems to have given up on trying to defend - the biggest issue with the coach is not the defence - its the lack of a systemic approach to attack that actually tries something when the ball is not in the hands of the few technical players.

Sure, a wide attacking player might help in this regard. But its still not get Bradley & Fraser & Chapman & Delgado to try a ball into a forward or to take a shot from distance.

If Vanney is going to stay next season (and that only happens if we somehow manage to make the playoffs), he HAS to fix this. He should fix it now, but I think the players have too many excuses in their heads about outside things to not see what is going on on the pitch.



Edit:

And you know what, we actually DID that versus SKC. And versus San Jose. So its not like this team can't do it. It just need to get it through their thick skulls that they can do that ALL GAME LONG & in every game.

Even if he is coaching it, they're not following through. I don't doubt some of this is just roster holes and poor roster management over the last three years, but I also think he's lost the room. They play without heart.

[Areathrasher]

It's time. He wasnt going to be here forever. He's a legend for what he has achieved but its time for a new voice and new ideas.

[portu]

I don't think he's on thin ice. At least he's not behaving like a manager on thin ice. The line-ups he's been putting out suggest to me that he has the leeway to drop points. I mean keeping Pozuelo on the bench, STARTING Boyd and Zavs... those aren't things you do when you fear for your job.

Guy isn't going anywhere.

[noimpactinmtl]

If you were Vanney, how else would you want Toronto to line up given the roster we have? We don't have the pace to park the bus and expose the opposition on the counter, Boyd is not a good target man for Route 1 long balls, and we don't have the width needed to stretch the opposition.

The only reason you would decide Vanney is the problem is if the academy's mediocrity has anything to do with him denying opportunities. Keep in mind, most academies only have a few players graduate to first team out of hundreds who come in, and Canada's football development is mediocre at best (we're not going to see a generation like France did). In truth, this is more of a question for Bill Manning and Ali Curtis to ask to themselves because we simply don't have the information available to make this judgement.

Canada is at a disadvantage in terms of developing players because we don't have the population or the passion (we're one of the most apathetic football nations in the world according to Soccernomics) US has to produce players despite "Pay to Play".

[Bushmancan]

I don’t think he is on thin ice yet but the KJ Tweet “Since winning MLS Cup TFC have played 50 MLS games. Won 15, drawn 10 & lost 25 (50%). They’ve conceded 92 goals” is so revealing and the next 4 games is no walk in the park. Not sure this is a statement on Vanney or Manning

[OgtheDim]

I don't think he's on thin ice. At least he's not behaving like a manager on thin ice. The line-ups he's been putting out suggest to me that he has the leeway to drop points. I mean keeping Pozuelo on the bench, STARTING Boyd and Zavs... those aren't things you do when you fear for your job.

Guy isn't going anywhere.


Agreed - Vanney is acting like he's been told they have the horses to get them to the playoffs and will have the final pieces after the next transfer season closes. Its not like we are at Cinci levels here for ineptitude in the roster.


Zavs is starting only because Mavinga is out - there wasn't much choice but a 3 man backline out there to blunt the speed and hope to get through the first half without conceding - almost worked until our young Canadian midfield guys didn't cover and we got punished.

[PizzaEatingYeti]

Wanney is not a bad coach by any means. A bad coach has bad performances with a team formed from overall good or at least overall average players.
Wanney is not a good coach by any means. A good coach has good performances with a team formed from at most overall average or overall bad players.
It is damn simple as that, if we can analyse a longer period of time - and in our case yes, we can!

Wanney is an average MLS coach.
After almost 2 years of that memorable 2017 season I'm firmly convinced that he had no more than 10% influence on that year's results (including the CONCACAF champs run in 2018), and the remaing 90% was because almost all the team players peaked in that year.
Sorry, but IMO takes a bad coach to not win all while having the highest payroll in the competition, and almost all team players having an excellent personal performance year.

TFC had no "good" coach since it's existence, they were average or bad coaches.

--------------------------------------

PS: I need to differentiate the term average from the term bad. (Because I saw too many guys using here along the years the term "average" for something I would call "bad".)
I'm not a native English speaker, so to make clear what these terms in general mean for me, here is an example:

In a 18 team balanced national footy competition (every team playing every other team 2 times), in the final standings, the teams placed in the first 6 I would call they had a good season, teams placed 7-12 had an average season and teams placed 13-18 had a bad season.
The "Average" is always somewhere close to the middle of the total, of the pack.

[Oldtimer]

Wanney is an average MLS coach.
After almost 2 years of that memorable 2017 season I'm firmly convinced that he had no more than 10% influence on that year's results (including the CONCACAF champs run in 2018), and the remaing 90% was because almost all the team players peaked in that year.
Sorry, but IMO takes a bad coach to not win all while having the highest payroll in the competition, and almost all team players having an excellent personal performance year.



I'd say that Vanney is an above average MLS level coach but not a brilliant MLS level coach. He has more technical nouse than the run-of-the-mill MLS coach.

Put say a Mariner in charge of Bradley, Giovinco, Jozy & Co and you don't have a winning side, despite the narrative that we automatically won because of our great players. IMO a majority of MLS coaches would not have used our offensive firepower as effectively as Greg did (although there's a number who would have done well with them).

Vanney strong points: A solid tactical system for good players (most people here haven't noticed, but some other MLS coaches have been imitating his styles and formations). An ability to use several different formations and tactics to win and the ability to switch between them on the fly. An attacking, aggressive style that gets the best out of Giovincos and Jozys.

Vanney weak points: An inability to get reasonably coordinated defense (it isn't just the players), he has depended on key players (Moor, Beitashour) to coach the back line instead of being able to come up with something coherent himself. Lack of ability to get maximum potential out of marginal players (most of the young players except for Oso). Inability to defensively grind out games (relates to the defensive coordination and lack of flexibility). Despite years of experience now, he doesn't seem to ever improve in these areas.

He is what he is. He's very frustrating at times because he'll lose a couple of games that we ought to win then turn around and just when I'm about to write him off win a game that we ought to lose.

[ensco]

I'd say that Vanney is an above average MLS level coach but not a brilliant MLS level coach. He has more technical nouse than the run-of-the-mill MLS coach.

Put say a Mariner in charge of Bradley, Giovinco, Jozy & Co and you don't have a winning side, despite the narrative that we automatically won because of our great players. IMO a majority of MLS coaches would not have used our offensive firepower as effectively as Greg did (although there's a number who would have done well with them).

Vanney strong points: A solid tactical system for good players (most people here haven't noticed, but some other MLS coaches have been imitating his styles and formations). An ability to use several different formations and tactics to win and the ability to switch between them on the fly. An attacking, aggressive style that gets the best out of Giovincos and Jozys.

Vanney weak points: An inability to get reasonably coordinated defense (it isn't just the players), he has depended on key players (Moor, Beitashour) to coach the back line instead of being able to come up with something coherent himself. Lack of ability to get maximum potential out of marginal players (most of the young players except for Oso). Inability to defensively grind out games (relates to the defensive coordination and lack of flexibility). Despite years of experience now, he doesn't seem to ever improve in these areas.

He is what he is. He's very frustrating at times because he'll lose a couple of games that we ought to win then turn around and just when I'm about to write him off win a game that we ought to lose.

OK I will bite. Notwithstanding his Guardiola infatuation with the 4-3-3 that caused the Panama Root Canal, Vanney almost always plays pretty plain vanilla 3-5-2 or 4-4-2 (sometimes diamond)... you are claiming he does something unique enough that other coaches are copying it... what is this tactical innovation? Which other coaches?

[Oldtimer]

OK I will bite. Notwithstanding his Guardiola infatuation with the 4-3-3 that caused the Panama Root Canal, Vanney almost always plays pretty plain vanilla 3-5-2 or 4-4-2 (sometimes diamond)... you are claiming he does something unique enough that other coaches are copying it... what is this tactical innovation? Which other coaches?

OK, from a world football perspective, nothing Vanney does is innovative. He's just a keen student of football elsewhere.

Let's start with the 4-4-2 diamond. Nobody in MLS was using it when Vanney brought it in as his alternative formation (one notable tactical use of it by him was using it for the 2017 MLS Cup game which Seattle was not prepared for and took them by surprise).

Now Jim Curtin is using it for his Philly side (instead of the previous 4-2-3-1), for the exact same reasons that Vanney has used it. If you have a strong midfield you can create overload situations. It's an aggressive, high risk formation that's good for a team with a strong midfield and weaker elsewhere. In the 2017 MLS Cup it led to TFC getting quickly ahead which effectively defeated Seattle's usual bunkering strategy.

Conor Casey has also been recently using it for the Rapids, although one could argue that they aren't strictly sticking to it as Mezquida tends to drift to the right leading to a lopsided "diamond."

[OgtheDim]

OK I will bite. Notwithstanding his Guardiola infatuation with the 4-3-3 that caused the Panama Root Canal, Vanney almost always plays pretty plain vanilla 3-5-2 or 4-4-2 (sometimes diamond)... you are claiming he does something unique enough that other coaches are copying it... what is this tactical innovation? Which other coaches?

Vanny brought the 3-5-2 back but added expansive full backs - in 2014 everybody was playing a 4-4-2 with stay back FB's. Previously in around 2011 NER had played a 3-5-2 but with inverted wingers not FB's. To a certain extant Vanney did this because of who the team was at the time but its funny how many coaches insisted on playing "their" formation. He's been really pragmatic compared to most. He, along with Berhalter, were one of the first in MLS to do formation switches within halves - most coaches made that switch at the mid point, if ever. Heck, innovation in formations was going from a 4-4-2 to a 5-4-1 when in the lead.

He also fully bought into analytics & load management when much of the league was/is ignoring it.

People need to read the Kloke book on the history of this team & see what sort of training this team used to do right up until Mariner was fired. The epitome of "get stuck in". Nelsen was only slightly better.



********

Oldtimer just saw your post - RSL played a 4-4-2 diamond. But they usually played it with 2 stay at home FBs, 1 winger and an inverted shuttler. TFC played it with 2 shuttlers & two bombing WB's. It really operated as a 2-1-4-1-2 - as like everything, it got found out eventually.

[Canary10]

Vanny brought the 3-5-2 back but added expansive full backs - in 2014 everybody was playing a 4-4-2 with stay back FB's. Previously in around 2011 NER had played a 3-5-2 but with inverted wingers not FB's. To a certain extant Vanney did this because of who the team was at the time but its funny how many coaches insisted on playing "their" formation. He's been really pragmatic compared to most. He, along with Berhalter, were one of the first in MLS to do formation switches within halves - most coaches made that switch at the mid point, if ever. Heck, innovation in formations was going from a 4-4-2 to a 5-4-1 when in the lead.

He also fully bought into analytics & load management when much of the league was/is ignoring it.

People need to read the Kloke book on the history of this team & see what sort of training this team used to do right up until Mariner was fired. The epitome of "get stuck in". Nelsen was only slightly better.



********

Oldtimer just saw your post - RSL played a 4-4-2 diamond. But they usually played it with 2 stay at home FBs, 1 winger and an inverted shuttler. TFC played it with 2 shuttlers & two bombing WB's. It really operated as a 2-1-4-1-2 - as like everything, it got found out eventually.

I think Og is right with this response. The 4-4-2 diamond was hardly uncommon, RSL being the prototypical team, but no one (in MLS) was using 3 central defenders with wing backs. Now it's pretty common.

Also, remember when left and right backs were the guys who sucked playing anywhere else on the pitch in MLS? Now teams pay money for good ones.

[stegosaurus]

Vanny brought the 3-5-2 back but added expansive full backs - in 2014 everybody was playing a 4-4-2 with stay back FB's. Previously in around 2011 NER had played a 3-5-2 but with inverted wingers not FB's. To a certain extant Vanney did this because of who the team was at the time but its funny how many coaches insisted on playing "their" formation. He's been really pragmatic compared to most. He, along with Berhalter, were one of the first in MLS to do formation switches within halves - most coaches made that switch at the mid point, if ever. Heck, innovation in formations was going from a 4-4-2 to a 5-4-1 when in the lead.

He also fully bought into analytics & load management when much of the league was/is ignoring it.

People need to read the Kloke book on the history of this team & see what sort of training this team used to do right up until Mariner was fired. The epitome of "get stuck in". Nelsen was only slightly better.



********

Oldtimer just saw your post - RSL played a 4-4-2 diamond. But they usually played it with 2 stay at home FBs, 1 winger and an inverted shuttler. TFC played it with 2 shuttlers & two bombing WB's. It really operated as a 2-1-4-1-2 - as like everything, it got found out eventually.

Yeah, this is a good post.

[Oldtimer]

Oldtimer just saw your post - RSL played a 4-4-2 diamond. But they usually played it with 2 stay at home FBs, 1 winger and an inverted shuttler. TFC played it with 2 shuttlers & two bombing WB's. It really operated as a 2-1-4-1-2 - as like everything, it got found out eventually.

Forgot about RSL. Yes they did play a version of the diamond.

[Oldtimer]

I think Og is right with this response. The 4-4-2 diamond was hardly uncommon, RSL being the prototypical team, but no one (in MLS) was using 3 central defenders with wing backs. Now it's pretty common.

It was more a flat 4-4-2 that was common, not the diamond (except for RSL as Og mentioned). I'm thinking circa 2014.

You're correct about the 3 central defenders with wingbacks.

The larger picture is that Vanney has been copied by other coaches (my original side point was that that fact has been ignored). Sure none of it was new to world football but it was new to MLS.

That's why the narrative that he's such a bad coach that just luckily stumbled into the treble because of a strong team is not credible. If that was true why is he being copied?

[OgtheDim]

Vanney's 4-3-3, if we were able to pull it off, would be different from most 4-3-3 in this league.

He wants to do 2 CB's 2 FB's who bomb 1 DM 2 playmaking AM 1 wide AM (DeLeon) 1 wide forward 1 target man who plays it into his feet - its really a 2-1-4-1-2 if you had to stack it up. Not quite Man City 4-3-3 in that the wide AM has more defensive duties. Relies a TON on the CB's & the DM.


Most are 2 CB's 2FB's who bomb 2 Dms 1 AM 2 wide AM 1 target man who bangs and lays off - 2-2-2-1-2-1. The way to counter this is to push their FB's back & create gaps between the less defensively minded wide AM's and the backline, which is why you see us play the 3-5-2 so often.

[Canary10]

It was more a flat 4-4-2 that was common, not the diamond (except for RSL as Og mentioned). I'm thinking circa 2014.

You're correct about the 3 central defenders with wingbacks.

The larger picture is that Vanney has been copied by other coaches (my original side point was that that fact has been ignored). Sure none of it was new to world football but it was new to MLS.

That's why the narrative that he's such a bad coach that just luckily stumbled into the treble because of a strong team is not credible. If that was true why is he being copied?

Yeah I agree with your main point.

[Ultra & Proud]

Vanney's 4-3-3, if we were able to pull it off, would be different from most 4-3-3 in this league.

He wants to do 2 CB's 2 FB's who bomb 1 DM 2 playmaking AM 1 wide AM (DeLeon) 1 wide forward 1 target man who plays it into his feet - its really a 2-1-4-1-2 if you had to stack it up. Not quite Man City 4-3-3 in that the wide AM has more defensive duties. Relies a TON on the CB's & the DM.


Most are 2 CB's 2FB's who bomb 2 Dms 1 AM 2 wide AM 1 target man who bangs and lays off - 2-2-2-1-2-1. The way to counter this is to push their FB's back & create gaps between the less defensively minded wide AM's and the backline, which is why you see us play the 3-5-2 so often.

For this to be successful I think we need a ton of roster overhauling. We don't have the pace to compensate for errors or counters and I am not sure our CAMs (minus Poz & maybe Osorio) have the IQ to run this properly. Maybe next year if the cap goes up by as much as the talking heads claim it will, then we can go on a shopping spree but as of right now, Vanney's proposed system is beyond the likes of Zavaleta, Delgado, Ciman, etc.

[portu]

OK, from a world football perspective, nothing Vanney does is innovative. He's just a keen student of football elsewhere.

Let's start with the 4-4-2 diamond. Nobody in MLS was using it when Vanney brought it in as his alternative formation (one notable tactical use of it by him was using it for the 2017 MLS Cup game which Seattle was not prepared for and took them by surprise).

Now Jim Curtin is using it for his Philly side (instead of the previous 4-2-3-1), for the exact same reasons that Vanney has used it. If you have a strong midfield you can create overload situations. It's an aggressive, high risk formation that's good for a team with a strong midfield and weaker elsewhere. In the 2017 MLS Cup it led to TFC getting quickly ahead which effectively defeated Seattle's usual bunkering strategy.

Conor Casey has also been recently using it for the Rapids, although one could argue that they aren't strictly sticking to it as Mezquida tends to drift to the right leading to a lopsided "diamond."

The 442 diamond was pretty obviously plagiarized from RSL.

[ensco]

I have said it before, so won’t belabour it... but I find the formation stuff to be way overblown. I don’t consider any of this to be that meaningful. But that is just me.

Vanney did a more than decent job deploying the resources he had available. He definitely switches formations in game, which I respect.

But he is not getting the best from his resources since CCL 2018. That is the issue.

[OgtheDim]

For this to be successful I think we need a ton of roster overhauling. We don't have the pace to compensate for errors or counters and I am not sure our CAMs (minus Poz & maybe Osorio) have the IQ to run this properly. Maybe next year if the cap goes up by as much as the talking heads claim it will, then we can go on a shopping spree but as of right now, Vanney's proposed system is beyond the likes of Zavaleta, Delgado, Ciman, etc.

Oh, I agree - I just don't think people understand the difference between this 4-3-3 and most MLS 4-3-3.

BTW, I'm pretty sure Vanney is not building it for Delgado & Zavaleta - Ciman though is the sort of CB that might be good at this at this level (but not if he goes as walkabout as he did on Saturday).

[MightyDM]

I have said it before, so won’t belabour it... but I find the formation stuff to be way overblown. I don’t consider any of this to be that meaningful. But that is just me.

Vanney did a more than decent job deploying the resources he had available. He definitely switches formations in game, which I respect.

But he is not getting the best from his resources since CCL 2018. That is the issue.

Something has gone wrong in the dressing rom since that loss. I have no idea what it is, maybe to do with Seba. But everything has been off since then.

Also, for a former defender, Vanneys teams are oddly defensively vulnerable. This was hidden for a while, maybe even fixed, but it’s gone back to the norm now.

[Oldtimer]

The 442 diamond was pretty obviously plagiarized from RSL.

As Og points out RSL didn't use wingbacks.

[OgtheDim]

https://twitter.com/KristianJack/status/1144069076836388865?s=19 Manning saying Vanney has to fix this. "He has been challenged." Playoffs or he is gone.

[stevep]

I don't think he's on thin ice. At least he's not behaving like a manager on thin ice. The line-ups he's been putting out suggest to me that he has the leeway to drop points. I mean keeping Pozuelo on the bench, STARTING Boyd and Zavs... those aren't things you do when you fear for your job.

Guy isn't going anywhere.

agreed, he is not going anywhere

watch him in interviews, he has no fear in his voice or body language, he just speaks matter of factly
he speaks nonchalantly about the way the team is playing

as others have said he knows reinforcements are coming.
maybe seba?

[Auzzy]

agreed, he is not going anywhere

watch him in interviews, he has no fear in his voice or body language, he just speaks matter of factly
he speaks nonchalantly about the way the team is playing

as others have said he knows reinforcements are coming.
maybe seba?

Did you see the Manning interview? Linked on the previous page. They're giving Vanney some time, but they say he has to deliver. If he doesn't turn things around by the end of the season, he's probably gone. Especially if they get reinforcements in the summer. (Omar + at least a TAM player.)

BTW after seeing Zavaleta & Ciman tonight, as well as Moor's / Mavinga's repeated injury problems, I don't think that Omar Gonzalez alone is enough to shore up our backline. That sucks for the team & for Vanney, but he better adjust his formation to be realistic.

[portu]

Did you see the Manning interview? Linked on the previous page. They're giving Vanney some time, but they say he has to deliver. If he doesn't turn things around by the end of the season, he's probably gone. Especially if they get reinforcements in the summer. (Omar + at least a TAM player.)

BTW after seeing Zavaleta & Ciman tonight, as well as Moor's / Mavinga's repeated injury problems, I don't think that Omar Gonzalez alone is enough to shore up our backline. That sucks for the team & for Vanney, but he better adjust his formation to be realistic.

Yeah he has to deliver.. deliver playoffs. In this league that is now a low bar to clear. Throughout this skid we have remained in the playoffs, in fact, I'm not sure if we've ever dropped out of a playoff spot this season. But again when 7 clubs are getting in there's not much to worry about if you're Greg Vanney.

[Auzzy]

Yeah he has to deliver.. deliver playoffs. In this league that is now a low bar to clear. Throughout this skid we have remained in the playoffs, in fact, I'm not sure if we've ever dropped out of a playoff spot this season. But again when 7 clubs are getting in there's not much to worry about if you're Greg Vanney.

Yeah you're right, that's a pretty low bar. Do you think squeaking into the 7th playoff spot, and exiting first round, will be enough for FO though? I don't know either way.

[Oldtimer]

Yeah you're right, that's a pretty low bar. Do you think squeaking into the 7th playoff spot, and exiting first round, will be enough for FO though? I don't know either way.

Manning's very straightforward. If playoffs are the minimum for this year then he'll keep his job if they get in.

One thing I've noticed is that Vanney performs better under pressure. He decided to be more daring against Atlanta and like usual when he does that it paid off (MLS Cup 2017 was another case where he was daring and used a formation that he had only used a few times that year). He has this frustrating tendency to sometimes be inflexible and get stuck doing repeatedly things that don't work. When he's challenged by his bosses or circumstances though he overcomes that tendency. Just an observation.

[ensco]

There was a meaningful level of criticism of Vanney by Manning in that interview. That wasn’t the anodyne statement of support you usually get in sports.

[Areathrasher]

Yep, a clear you dont make the playoffs you're gone message

[OgtheDim]

There was a meaningful level of criticism of Vanney by Manning in that interview. That wasn’t the anodyne statement of support you usually get in sports.

It was bluntly respectfullly honest. Manning has that streak about him in public declarations. I can't imagine him going anywhere near a Teacher's Pension Plan sort of environment.

it also brings clarity so people can stop talking about it.

[ensco]

It was bluntly respectfullly honest. Manning has that streak about him in public declarations. I can't imagine him going anywhere near a Teacher's Pension Plan sort of environment.

it also brings clarity so people can stop talking about it.

It really depends. Sometimes this kind of thing causes more talk.

Hard to know in this case. This team has had an awful lot go on the last six months

[A Stick]

Vanney almost blew this game big time. Changes were needed in the second half and the one and only change should have happened way earlier.

[Oldtimer]

Vanney almost blew this game big time. Changes were needed in the second half and the one and only change should have happened way earlier.

Yeah, we almost tied the game instead of winning. :rolleyes:

[OgtheDim]

Vanney almost blew this game big time. Changes were needed in the second half and the one and only change should have happened way earlier.

I thought to myself around minute 60, "Who do you take off?" A defender for a forward means a change in shape & likely Atlanta punishes the uncertainty (that has happened a lot this season). Anybody else had to be a like for like.

He didn't want to change the dynamic - the passing was working so well for once. He was going to do Shaffleburg off for Akinola about from the 83rd minute.

Endoh was going to come off earlier but like a lot of players when they see the change is coming, they bare down and grind it out harder - that's when he put that one off the bar.

[A Stick]

Yeah, we almost tied the game instead of winning. :rolleyes:

I didn't think we played as well in the second half as we did in the first. Atlanta made adjustments and TFC didn't. We were lucky.

[GerMc]

It was good to see the change in formation and tactics in this game. I think many of us have been confused as to why he stuck with the same formation/players over the last series of games (Boyd!), when the results have been so poor. i give Vanney credit for a change that led to a more entertaining, and more importantly, much more effective effort.

As a few mentioned above, I also wasn't sure what changes Vanney could make later in the second half. The obvious one was Chapman, though I didn't think he had big impact. I agree with those who said that taking Shaffleburg and Endoh off didn't make sense as they were both having a great game. I don't fault Vanney for sticking with what has been the most effective formation that I have seen in a while.

[Oldtimer]

I didn't think we played as well in the second half as we did in the first. Atlanta made adjustments and TFC didn't. We were lucky.

Atlanta's adjustments were mostly ineffective (maybe Shaffleburg was somewhat better marked). They didn't really have an answer for speedy wide play and TFC kept opening them up right until the end.

Any adjustment like bringing in Hamilton or changing formation with another defender would have given up TFC's primary advantage in this match. I don't think it was "lucky" at all, it was a conscience decision.

[portu]

Yeah you're right, that's a pretty low bar. Do you think squeaking into the 7th playoff spot, and exiting first round, will be enough for FO though? I don't know either way.

7th and first round exit wouldn't be enough for me, but I think Manning made it clear that we've stepped away from the "Why not us" era.

[portu]

Bringing up the Nelsen comparison again (I did it last year as well).

This is the second year in a row Vanney's TFC is worse than Nelsen's 2014.

It took a disgusting 3 nil loss to get Neslen sacked (while we were sitting tied 3rd in the East). Vanney has us sitting 7th and we've suffered multiple atrocious performances.

Vanney says he likes the direction the team is going in. Guy has a long leash - hell he might not even be on one at this point.

[OgtheDim]

Bringing up the Nelsen comparison again (I did it last year as well).

This is the second year in a row Vanney's TFC is worse than Nelsen's 2014.

It took a disgusting 3 nil loss to get Neslen sacked (while we were sitting tied 3rd in the East). Vanney has us sitting 7th and we've suffered multiple atrocious performances.

Vanney says he likes the direction the team is going in. Guy has a long leash - hell he might not even be on one at this point.


Nelsen was sacked because

a) he argued with his GM

b) he didn't want to use monitoring equipment or load management

c) he was resistant to analytics

d) his training methods were substandard

& he didn't get results


There was a lot more going on at that time then there is now.

[Oldtimer]

People forget that Nelsen (with zero coaching experience) was a significant improvement over the much more experienced Paul Mariner.

That being said he was a old school player from the UK old chums network, not exactly the person to implement modern methods of coaching. He also didn't want high end DPs like Seba or Jozy, he preferred a team of middling players. Ultimately Bez's approach was proven correct and I don't regret him being replaced.

[glaze]

Why wont he play osorio?
Oh there he is. 54th min just as i typed it

[Fort York Redcoat]

Why wont he play osorio?
Oh there he is. 54th min just as i typed it

Oso had the flu.

[smtavare]

Vanney puts on the worst lineup against Houston tonight and loses at home - discuss

[Auzzy]

Vanney sucks.

Houston also had 3 games this week, with more travel. And they were 1-8 away before this game. And they were missing their top scorer.

[GerMc]

Vanney sucks.

Houston also had 3 games this week, with more travel. And they were 1-8 away before this game. And they were missing their top scorer.

I have not generally been in tune with the Vanney criticism, but I think this quote captures it well. In my view, Vanney lost this game tonight, not the players on the field. I have to wonder how long we tolerate this type of bad coaching. As I have said elsewhere, we are not the 2017 TFC anymore (which Vanney did coach well). We don’t have the margin of error to support nights like tonight or other incomprehensible decisions (e.g., continuing to play Boyd, subbing in Zavaleta late in games, etc.). I now believe it is time to move on.

[stevep]

Like some others I had always supported vanney.
But no longer. He deliberately threw this game under the direction of his master's.
MLSE blew it big time on this one, they threw the game too obviously.
Everyone hates vanney now, myself included. I don't think he can survive this one.
Tonight was an insult to 25,000 people that paid to go to that game
Look at the comments on Twitter. He's done like dinner. Good riddance

[Oldtimer]

Vanney can do brilliant strategic choices (typically when he has a full healthy "A" team) like in many of the games of the triple run, especially some of those games against Mexican sides, and then he pulls inexplicably horrible choices (typically when missing some players) that almost anyone with the slightest footy knowledge can see are idiotic.

Why this second side to him? Is it hubris? Stupidity? Match fixing? A below average bench? Bi-polar? I don't get it.

[stegosaurus]

Vanney can do brilliant strategic choices (typically when he has a full healthy "A" team) like in many of the games of the triple run, especially some of those games against Mexican sides, and then he pulls inexplicably horrible choices (typically when missing some players) that almost anyone with the slightest footy knowledge can see are idiotic.

Why this second side to him? Is it hubris? Stupidity? Match fixing? A below average bench? Bi-polar? I don't get it.

His interviews clearly detail exactly what he was thinking. He overthinks and relies on players to play above their ability, which simply isn’t the right mindset for an MLS team that is only as good as its weakest players on the pitch.

Hence the, “They’re not playing like I want them to,” “They were too slow,” “Not enough passing going forward,” “Weakness in transition,” etc.

That’s not necessarily good coaching, but it’s pretty easy to see what Vanney was thinking without resorting to guessing ulterior motivation or disorders bordering on the absurd.

[jabbronies]

I can see why Vanney would do what he did yesterday. I don't agree with it, but I understand why he did it. and TBH - I still wouldn't sack him:

With regards to all 3 DP's sitting:
- There have been many in TFC land who have said Michael Bradley can be easily replaced by Liam Fraiser. I'm hoping that argument has now been put to rest.
- Jozy Altiodre is on Load management. That's the only way we can guarantee he stays fit for the August / September run and then playoffs. There is no argument against that.
- Pozuelo is hurt - we all saw him get hacked. There's nothing anyone could do about that.

With regards to Ciman and Zavaletta starting:
- Moor is done and Mavinga probably hurt again or he is being Load managed like Altiorde.
- Omar can't just walk in and take Ciman's place on the roster, even though everyone knows Omar should. There's seniority that has to play out, you still have to give Ciman a reason why his place is being taken away from him.
- Ciman is showing time and time again that he isn't the player he was 2 years ago. He's done. This is just another example of why he'll need to be let go at the end of the year, no matter how "Fit" people will claim he is
- Zavaleta - that's on Greg. Although with everything else being mentioned above, who do you start?

[ag futbol]

Vanney can do brilliant strategic choices (typically when he has a full healthy "A" team) like in many of the games of the triple run, especially some of those games against Mexican sides, and then he pulls inexplicably horrible choices (typically when missing some players) that almost anyone with the slightest footy knowledge can see are idiotic.

Why this second side to him? Is it hubris? Stupidity? Match fixing? A below average bench? Bi-polar? I don't get it.
It’s a preoccupation with a theoretical approach to the game and the absence of practicality. You see it with other managers is world football as well (Wenger in his later years, for example).

He’s not an all-around terrible coach by any means. But, it’s fair to question at this stage if he’s adaptable enough for what TFC will be going forward.

[stevep]

Vanney can do brilliant strategic choices (typically when he has a full healthy "A" team) like in many of the games of the triple run, especially some of those games against Mexican sides, and then he pulls inexplicably horrible choices (typically when missing some players) that almost anyone with the slightest footy knowledge can see are idiotic.

Why this second side to him? Is it hubris? Stupidity? Match fixing? A below average bench? Bi-polar? I don't get it.

Match fixing. He threw that game away last night.

[MightyDM]

Vanney can do brilliant strategic choices (typically when he has a full healthy "A" team) like in many of the games of the triple run, especially some of those games against Mexican sides, and then he pulls inexplicably horrible choices (typically when missing some players) that almost anyone with the slightest footy knowledge can see are idiotic.

Why this second side to him? Is it hubris? Stupidity? Match fixing? A below average bench? Bi-polar? I don't get it.

This is how I see it. The only thing I can think is that he was sending a message to players who were complaining about playing time.

It’s bizarre. Hubris or judgment, just bizarre. And the moments he picks to do this are bad. I think our slump started early doors when he played a strange line up

[MightyDM]

Nelsen was sacked because

a) he argued with his GM

I don’t know but ok likely

b) he didn't want to use monitoring equipment or load management

This line has been peddled and I simply don’t buy it. The captain of a premier league club not knowing modern training methods has to be BS. And I today met a guy who used to be very involved with sport science at TFC until Vanney arrived and was fired who was fairly critical of MLS in general as being not bery modern - he called it “too American. They just think more load is better when it isn’t that way at all”. This was I. Response to my question about “why are they hurt all the time” and wasn’t sour grapes at all. I am only saying this because the amount of training injuries we have had this year has to call our training methods under this coaching staff to be called into question.

c) he was resistant to analytics

d) his training methods were substandard

& he didn't get results


There was a lot more going on at that time then there is now.

I put my comments above inside yours

[MightyDM]

I can see why Vanney would do what he did yesterday. I don't agree with it, but I understand why he did it. and TBH - I still wouldn't sack him:

With regards to all 3 DP's sitting:
- There have been many in TFC land who have said Michael Bradley can be easily replaced by Liam Fraiser. I'm hoping that argument has now been put to rest.
- Jozy Altiodre is on Load management. That's the only way we can guarantee he stays fit for the August / September run and then playoffs. There is no argument against that.
- Pozuelo is hurt - we all saw him get hacked. There's nothing anyone could do about that.

With regards to Ciman and Zavaletta starting:
- Moor is done and Mavinga probably hurt again or he is being Load managed like Altiorde.
- Omar can't just walk in and take Ciman's place on the roster, even though everyone knows Omar should. There's seniority that has to play out, you still have to give Ciman a reason why his place is being taken away from him.
- Ciman is showing time and time again that he isn't the player he was 2 years ago. He's done. This is just another example of why he'll need to be let go at the end of the year, no matter how "Fit" people will claim he is
- Zavaleta - that's on Greg. Although with everything else being mentioned above, who do you start?

Bradley did not have to sit with Poz and Jozy out. And if you accept your points around Ciman (which I don’t) he still could have played Omar. You just could not rely on a 21 year old to make up for the inevitable mistakes of two mistake prone defenders. Nonsensical.

[portu]

If we lose to the joke that is Cinci next week at home, then Vanney has to go and if he doesn't then I won't be far off convinced that we have issues above him as well.

Note: New England plays Cinci and Orlando plays Red Bulls today. If either wins then we move out of a playoff spot. If both win we move to 9th.

[ag futbol]

Bradley did not have to sit with Poz and Jozy out. And if you accept your points around Ciman (which I don’t) he still could have played Omar. You just could not rely on a 21 year old to make up for the inevitable mistakes of two mistake prone defenders. Nonsensical.
I’d compare it to having thanksgiving dinner on day 1, a 5-course meal on day 2, and on day 3 half a box of kraft dinner.

Let’s not forget that we played completely open too, against a team that loves to counter.

It was all around poorly thought out.

[stegosaurus]

Bradley did not have to sit with Poz and Jozy out. And if you accept your points around Ciman (which I don’t) he still could have played Omar. You just could not rely on a 21 year old to make up for the inevitable mistakes of two mistake prone defenders. Nonsensical.

I wonder why he didn’t play Marky? It would have at least made sense to pair Fraser up with someone else defensive instead of just letting them run riot on us with more attack-oriented players on the pitch.

Unless Vanney was basically giving the “hey, we need to play too” guys a dose of reality by playing them all at once there’s really no reason this team can’t play a bit of bunkerball too. The way we played yesterday as a whole was stupid against a team that springs counters and lives year round in a disgustingly hot and humid wasteland.

We figured out early on that you need someone to score if you intend to outscore opponents, which is something this squad has failed to do on numerous occasions. We know that even a bad squad can make it difficult for another team to score.

Why hasn’t this team figured that out? I’d hate to sit in a swamp and watch TFC lose 3-1 at home as much as anyone, but a 0-0, 1-1, or even 0-1 draw or loss would have been more palatable.

Vanney’s approach isn’t suited for a difficult MLS schedule or an entire MLS squad for a number of reasons, which isn’t a defense of Vanney. When the squad looks good, they look really good. When they don’t, they look abysmal. It’s too limited and relies on our players having superhuman years like they did during the cup season while hoping MLS opposition doesn’t get any better (they have).

[stevep]

NE is winning, keep it up boys
Let's go Orlando

I cheer against anybody that has the power to get #vanneyout

Vanney please start bench players again next week. I don't care I won't be at the game

[ensco]

You have to be careful with all these certainties about Vanney's choices.

None of us are in the room. We don't know about injuries, off field issues, discipline stuff, injuries that aren’t reported.

[ensco]

Also any guys posting “match fixing” posts needs to provide evidence, or stop.

Right now it's just anonymous slander.

[portu]

Also any guys posting “match fixing” posts needs to provide evidence, or stop.

Right now it's just anonymous slander.

Yeah accusations like that aren't a joke.

[red-o]

I cheer against anybody that has the power to get #vanneyout

IMFC?

[backbeat]

Also any guys posting “match fixing” posts needs to provide evidence, or stop.

Right now it's just anonymous slander.


i don't believe there was anything close to match fixing, rather really, really, really poor managing.

and what put me off even more were Vanney's comments after the match suggesting that he gave players an opportunity to show what they've got and that they disappointed - that is incredibly disingenuous.

you cannot expect to throw a novice into a match littered with other novices - its a recipe for loss of confidence and regression

you want to enter young players into matches surrounded by experience to give them support and a chance to adjust

this is ALL on Vanney and I'm a Vanney supporter

the other point is it's a slap to fan growth

there was a row in front of me where the regular season seat holders had given their tickets to 'friends' and they were there to see the stars - the comments i overheard were of massive disappointment amongst themselves and to their kids about how they attend one game and none of the stars are playing - they were so disappointed - i get load management but there is also entertainment and growing the sport - i get that this is a minor point in the scheme of things but the major point is you do not take the majority of your team out for load management and especially the backline - lunacy.....

[stevep]

i don't believe there was anything close to match fixing, rather really, really, really poor managing.

and what put me off even more were Vanney's comments after the match suggesting that he gave players an opportunity to show what they've got and that they disappointed - that is incredibly disingenuous.

you cannot expect to throw a novice into a match littered with other novices - its a recipe for loss of confidence and regression

you want to enter young players into matches surrounded by experience to give them support and a chance to adjust

this is ALL on Vanney and I'm a Vanney supporter

the other point is it's a slap to fan growth

there was a row in front of me where the regular season seat holders had given their tickets to 'friends' and they were there to see the stars - the comments i overheard were of massive disappointment amongst themselves and to their kids about how they attend one game and none of the stars are playing - they were so disappointed - i get load management but there is also entertainment and growing the sport - i get that this is a minor point in the scheme of things but the major point is you do not take the majority of your team out for load management and especially the backline - lunacy.....


like yourself I was a Vanney supporter. I think he is a good tactician.
But his action last night of sitting all the starters for a home game was a truly despicable act.
It shows utter disregard for the fans for him to do what he did last night. Fans that paid good money and their valuable time to see an entertaining soccer game. You should see some of the comments on twitter, people travelled hours to see this game, they are pissed.
Based on this act alone I want him gone, I can't look at the man without feelings of anger and disgust. I don't want to see his face on another press conference. I am not alone on this feeling.

[stegosaurus]

Yeah accusations like that aren't a joke.

They’re pretty much a running joke at this point.

[SoccMan2]

So TFC is below the playoff line , thanks Vanney you fool!! They could have been in what 5th. place with the win instead they are now in 8th, because of this idiot , go get a real job buddy like the rest of us, where if we screw up like he did yesterday are asses would be on the unemployment line! What a piece of work this idiot is I’m sorry!

[portu]

They’re pretty much a running joke at this point.

Matchfixing shouldn't be laughed about. I don't think Vanney should be around, but to say he's throwing games and moreover doing it for personal profit is an abhorrent accusation.

[stegosaurus]

Matchfixing shouldn't be laughed about. I don't think Vanney should be around, but to say he's throwing games and moreover doing it for personal profit is an abhorrent accusation.

That’s what I said last time it came up (insert shrugging shoulders emoji).

[stevep]

That’s what I said last time it came up (insert shrugging shoulders emoji).

no, no, in no way am I saying Vanney is doing this for personal profit.
absolutely not. i believe he was told to do this yesterday by his masters( the league)
and it is not done for betting. it is done to get certain teams popular in their cities.


think about this:
there are two possible scenerios that happened yesterday

1) vanney fielded this lineup himself or
2) someone else told him to field this lineup (ie the league)

option 1, -it was an idiotic lineup, vanney is not an idiot
- it pissed off 25,000 fans that now hate him with a passion, why would he want to do that
- it was a lineup not capable of winning the game, vanney knows this, he is not stupid why would he field a lineup not capable of winning the game
-with our starters we easily beat Houston, Houston is absolutely terrible, why would he not do the obvious thing, he wants to win, it's in his dna as a coach to want to win

IT IS OPTION 2, IT IS THE ONLY OPTION THAT MAKES SENSE, IT IS THE ONLY OPTION THAT FITS




i really dont want to talk about this anymore as it is unproveable and it really is a big negative and mostly because you guys don't get it
nor want to get it.

[ensco]

^This is an utterly ridiculous post. You are still accusing the manager and others of being complicit in an illegal activity without a shred of evidence. I think you need to walk it back.

Moving on...

———————-

This wasn’t something out of the blue.

2017: Here's Vanney with no Gio, Altidore and Vazquez, and us getting slaughtered, in a derby match at home, in the middle of a 3 games in 7 night stretch.

https://matchcenter.mlssoccer.com/matchcenter/2017-09-20-toronto-fc-vs-montreal-impact/lineup

[Auzzy]

This wasn’t something out of the blue.

2017: Here's Vanney with no Gio, Altidore and Vazquez, and us getting slaughtered, in a derby match at home, in the middle of a 3 games in 7 night stretch.

https://matchcenter.mlssoccer.com/matchcenter/2017-09-20-toronto-fc-vs-montreal-impact/lineup

Very interesting; I'll watch the highlights when I have a chance, and check the squad rotation before & after this.

Yet it still doesn't seem to be nearly as extreme of a coach's decision. First of all, it was Sept. 20; TFC had already clinched a playoff spot by then. And before this game, they had already "narrowed TFC’s Supporters’ Shield magic number to five, extended their unbeaten run to 11 and pulled the club within six points and two wins of tying the single-season MLS records in those respective categories."

So it was resting players during a dominating season, in advance of playoffs which were already guaranteed. I do remember that some people weren't too happy about the play for multiple games around this time. TFC seemed to take their foot off the gas too much, and many felt that carried into the first phases of the playoffs, where TFC was a bit lucky to advance.

More importantly, TFC still started with Moor & Mavinga, their first-choice CBs; and Bradley also started. Despite the three attacking stars being out, there was far less turnover from game to game, than we saw with this week's game.

[Blizzard]

Total, total lunacy! C'mon man.

[stevep]

[QUOTE=ensco;1904203]^This is an utterly ridiculous post. You are still accusing the manager and others of being complicit in an illegal activity without a shred of evidence. I think you need to walk it back.

Moving on...

You have to be very careful what you write. it shows how knowledgeable you are;
you wrote: and i quote
you are still accusing the manager and others of being complicit in an illegal activity

it is not illegal to fix a game:

Is it legal for the NFL to fix games?

That's the luxurious position the NFL finds itself in when it comes to its court-granted right to fix the outcome of professional football games. There is no question the NFLhas the legal right to fix a game. Any game, including the Super Bowl.Feb 5, 2018


your comments are no longer really relevant, a travesty occurred last night and you defend tfc
no matter what happens you will defend tfc. I have noticed that in your comments

[stegosaurus]

[QUOTE=ensco;1904203]^This is an utterly ridiculous post. You are still accusing the manager and others of being complicit in an illegal activity without a shred of evidence. I think you need to walk it back.

Moving on...

You have to be very careful what you write. it shows how knowledgeable you are;
you wrote: and i quote
you are still accusing the manager and others of being complicit in an illegal activity

it is not illegal to fix a game:

Is it legal for the NFL to fix games?

That's the luxurious position the NFL finds itself in when it comes to its court-granted right to fix the outcome of professional football games. There is no question the NFLhas the legal right to fix a game. Any game, including the Super Bowl.Feb 5, 2018


your comments are no longer really relevant, a travesty occurred last night and you defend tfc
no matter what happens you will defend tfc. I have noticed that in your comments






1. That’s not what match fixing is.
2. Weren’t the referees fixing it through their earpieces last time?
3. There’s already a scripted “sport.” It’s called wrestling, and a lot of people enjoy it and don’t get unnecessarily angry about the results.

If you believe football is actually “entertainment” and not “sport,” then there isn’t much of a reason for you to be incensed over every loss given there’s no real winner or loser if it’s all predetermined.

[ensco]

your comments are no longer really relevant, a travesty occurred last night and you defend tfc
no matter what happens you will defend tfc. I have noticed that in your comments



Ahhh this made my day. You really have no idea....

Also bye -you're blocked

[denime]

1. That’s not what match fixing is.
2. Weren’t the referees fixing it through their earpieces last time?
3. There’s already a scripted “sport.” It’s called wrestling, and a lot of people enjoy it and don’t get unnecessarily angry about the results.

If you believe football is actually “entertainment” and not “sport,” then there isn’t much of a reason for you to be incensed over every loss given there’s no real winner or loser if it’s all predetermined.

He got that info from here:
https://www.mediapost.com/publicatio...se-its-fi.html (https://www.mediapost.com/publications/article/313959/string-theories-is-the-nfl-broken-because-its-fi.html)

String Theories: Is The NFL Broken Because It's Fixed?

The NFL argued, and the court agreed, that people who buy tickets to an NFL game have the contractual right to a seat to watch two teams play each other, and nothing else. The court even quoted Mayer’s ticket stub, which reads: “This ticket only grants entry into the stadium and a spectator seat for the specified NFL game.” (emphasis added)If the Patriots cheated to win that game, well, tough. Legally extrapolate that and it means: If any NFL outcome is fixed, well, tough.

Also in 2010, in a separate court case against the NFL (http://www.espn.com/nfl/news/story?id=4822872) over branded items like hats and shirts, the league presented itself not as 32 separate teams, but as one singular business “unit in the entertainment marketplace.”Throughout that case, the NFL repeatedly positioned itself legally as a “sports entertainment” business, not a genuinely contested “sport.” College football, for example, is legally classified as a “collegiate sport.” The only other “sports entertainment” businesses are professional wrestling and roller derby.

If you believe football is actually “entertainment” and not “sport,” then there isn’t much of a reason for you to be incensed over every loss given there’s no real winner or loser if it’s all predetermined.

[ensco]

^That is a side issue. A contractual debate.

Please somebody google Tim Donaghy then explain to me about how fixing matches has no criminal consequences...

(this is bananas that we even have to discuss this)

[denime]

^That is a side issue. A contractual debate.

Please somebody google Tim Donaghy then explain to me about how fixing matches has no criminal consequences...

(this is bananas that we even have to discuss this)

Agree,my post was about were he got his info to claim game was fixed.

[Oldtimer]

For the record, I don't really think Vanney is involved in match fixing. I think he'd resign rather than have someone from the league f.o. dictate that he throw a certain game to help that market out.

There are very above-board measures to help out poor teams in MLS, with allocation, salary budget restrictions and the like.

That most certainly does not mean that Vanney is immune from pressure to play certain players by Manning or by Curtis against his better judgment. It's quite likely that is happening. For example benching Bradley to start last game could have been dictated to see if TFC could play hardball with Michael knowing that we had a "good enough" substitute (eg move him to TAM so we could bring in another DP).

[stegosaurus]

That most certainly does not mean that Vanney is immune from pressure to play certain players by Manning or by Curtis against his better judgment. It's quite likely that is happening. For example benching Bradley to start last game could have been dictated to see if TFC could play hardball with Michael knowing that we had a "good enough" substitute (eg move him to TAM so we could bring in another DP).

That’s the “management” part of management.

It’s the equivalent of the trainers and medical staff telling you not to play a certain player due to a knock or injury.

[MightyDM]

For the record, I don't really think Vanney is involved in match fixing. I think he'd resign rather than have someone from the league f.o. dictate that he throw a certain game to help that market out.

There are very above-board measures to help out poor teams in MLS, with allocation, salary budget restrictions and the like.

That most certainly does not mean that Vanney is immune from pressure to play certain players by Manning or by Curtis against his better judgment. It's quite likely that is happening. For example benching Bradley to start last game could have been dictated to see if TFC could play hardball with Michael knowing that we had a "good enough" substitute (eg move him to TAM so we could bring in another DP).

I doubt they did that for that game - more like “give Fraser some time” but if they did, it backfired rather spectacularly. It is now evident that Fraser can play well with the right team around him but isn’t yet at the level where he can make up for others weaknesses - let alone anywhere near Bradley. The General made his DP case pretty effectively on Saturday.

[stegosaurus]

I doubt they did that for that game - more like “give Fraser some time” but if they did, it backfired rather spectacularly. It is now evident that Fraser can play well with the right team around him but isn’t yet at the level where he can make up for others weaknesses - let alone anywhere near Bradley. The General made his DP case pretty effectively on Saturday.

I think that’s one of the issues with this squad in general. Some players look good with good players on the pitch, but disappear when they aren’t.

Playing Fraser in a midfield with no defensively minded players and our weakest defenders bar Morrow, who can’t really do much in this scenario, is a recipe for failure.

Even Bradley usually plays with Delgado.

[MightyDM]

I think that’s one of the issues with this squad in general. Some players look good with good players on the pitch, but disappear when they aren’t.

Playing Fraser in a midfield with no defensively minded players and our weakest defenders bar Morrow, who can’t really do much in this scenario, is a recipe for failure.

Even Bradley usually plays with Delgado.

Yes. Which makes the lineup changes bizarre. And proves why we need Bradley.

It’s not just Fraser. Chapman plays very well in a tight role inside and contributes (but there is no room there). Even Oso, who is excellent with a VV and Seba or a Poz and Jozy, can’t excel with a line up like Saturday’s.

It’s the nature of MLS and soccer I. General. Your lineup and tactics have to hide your weaknesses as well as emphasize your strengths. Vanney says he wanted freshness and pace - fair enough. But you still needed to deal with the known weakness in CB and not leave Fraser horribly exposed.

But this is repeating ourselves. Let’s hope Bradley stays. That’s the big message from Saturday.

[stegosaurus]

Yes. Which makes the lineup changes bizarre. And proves why we need Bradley.

It’s not just Fraser. Chapman plays very well in a tight role inside and contributes (but there is no room there). Even Oso, who is excellent with a VV and Seba or a Poz and Jozy, can’t excel with a line up like Saturday’s.

It’s the nature of MLS and soccer I. General. Your lineup and tactics have to hide your weaknesses as well as emphasize your strengths. Vanney says he wanted freshness and pace - fair enough. But you still needed to deal with the known weakness in CB and not leave Fraser horribly exposed.

But this is repeating ourselves. Let’s hope Bradley stays. That’s the big message from Saturday.

For sure.

[David_Oliveira]

I get all this Vanney out conversation. It is warranted. There have been some major major mistakes made. I am left with one thought though. If we get rid of him, who do we bring in? MLS is a tricky league. Not everyone can come in and be a successful manager. Is there a coach with proven success who is available?

[JuliquE]

I feel like his decision to rest so many starters came down to a few reasons:

- third game in seven days
- injuries and load-management
- one or two players deserving of mins.
- Western conference opponent

That last one's a huge factor; it's why we never slipped out of a playoff spot, during our last winless slide—most of our results were against other Eastern sides.

In regards to the star-players: there's an argument for at least starting Bradly, but he's a player you already have to reign in for trying to do too much, at times, with other starters around him… never mind in a side of people he can hardly feel like he trusts; if we were thinking he was due for a rest (seemed the consensus, going into the match against Houston), throwing him into such an understrengthed side would have been pushing it, given his style of play. Else, if the plan was always to give Jozy a half game off, he should have started, as, like Vanney himself has said, going behind in heat can be difficult to come back from… however, I feel like he was hoping Jozy could sit this one out, entirely, only bringing him on if necessary (which, I suppose, is fair). Pozuelo's being injured is straight-forward, if maybe I'd have liked for them to be making a bit more noise about the fact he were hacked, and the player was hardly disciplined for it (someone else called for this, on these boards).

At this point, I think, like Manning has already mentioned, that Vanney has earned the chance to set things right; missed out on the playoffs last year, and, whilst he probably was disappointed to have started this year with even FEWER than ideal players, I'm sure he would understand the need for him to see the door, should we miss out for the second time running. That said, I've seen a lot of insults slung his way, which have left me cringing in disgust; Vanney is not only our most successful and longest-serving coach, to date, but he's done it all picking up "coach of the year" honours, and the like. But, it's not just that: Vanney was at the helm for what will probably go down as our most fabled year, ever, and he done it through suffering the loss of his mother—poured a lot into that year, and always carries himself well, regardless, speaking highly of the fans, along the way.

I understand the need to evaluate and be critical of his every move, for some, where, perhaps, I'd take a more "bigger picture" look at things, as I tend to feel there's little sense in getting too riled up, right after a match (lose my mind, just like some of you, in the heat of things). I just wish a few, here (and elsewhere, to be fair), could dial it down; it almost feels disrespectful to the club, when you consider the full context of the situation—certainly stings, slightly, as a fan, when I see someone insult our head-coach, generally speaking… not to mention Vanney, whom I'll always have time for.

[ManUtd4ever]

Firing Vanney would be premature at this point. Ride out the season and see what he can do with a recently revamped roster.

[jabbronies]

Bradley did not have to sit with Poz and Jozy out. And if you accept your points around Ciman (which I don’t) he still could have played Omar. You just could not rely on a 21 year old to make up for the inevitable mistakes of two mistake prone defenders. Nonsensical.

I stick by my Ciman comments - manager isn't just going to sit a veteran guy for the rest of the season after the new guy arrives without at least giving him 1 chance to prove he can manage the defence the way this team needs. He failed horribly at it. There is no question in the locker room now that Omar starts over Ciman. It's a point that had to be made. I bet when Drew gets healthy, he'll be fighting someone for a spot - he'll get a shot to play and people on this board are going shit themselves the same way they are about Ciman getting his chance.

Also - Fraiser wasn't hung out to dry - he was put into a realistic situation where he was backed by a former MLS defender of the year and a player with 90+ MLS games under his belt - plus playoff experience.
The kid played well when Bradley was gone. But same as Ciman - you can't just bench the guy without giving him a chance to prove he's capable of competing for a starting spot - which he proved he isn't ready for.

This situation plays out a lot more than people realize.

[stegosaurus]

Also - Fraiser wasn't hung out to dry - he was put into a realistic situation where he was backed by a former MLS defender of the year and a player with 90+ MLS games under his belt - plus playoff experience.

The kid played well when Bradley was gone. But same as Ciman - you can't just bench the guy without giving him a chance to prove he's capable of competing for a starting spot - which he proved he isn't ready for.

I don’t actually think Fraser played that poorly, but he definitely wasn’t helped by the lack of a proper defense and lack of defensive-minded players on the pitch in general.

Zavaleta and Ciman are a poor pairing, Auro/Chapman on the right are basically invisible defensively, and none of the midfielders we played were very helpful in defense.

Not only that, but it was a pretty slow lineup in the swamp against a team used to that sort of climate and who play counter attacking football — while we were attempting to attack and play for possession.

That’s pretty much the worst possible way to evaluate Fraser’s ability, and I don’t think he’s ready to replace Bradley or anything.

I think that’s actually nearly the least defensively sound lineup we could have produced while still playing some actual defenders.

[jabbronies]

I don’t actually think Fraser played that poorly, but he definitely wasn’t helped by the lack of a proper defense and lack of defensive-minded players on the pitch in general.

Zavaleta and Ciman are a poor pairing, Auro/Chapman on the right are basically invisible defensively, and none of the midfielders we played were very helpful in defense.

Not only that, but it was a pretty slow lineup in the swamp against a team used to that sort of climate and who play counter attacking football — while we were attempting to attack and play for possession.

That’s pretty much the worst possible way to evaluate Fraser’s ability, and I don’t think he’s ready to replace Bradley or anything.

I think that’s actually nearly the least defensively sound lineup we could have produced while still playing some actual defenders.

We didn't need a defensively sound lineup for that game. Houston have been completed garbage the past two games - TFC should've won with the lineup that was out there. And with them not being defensively sound, what good are they? They couldn't even score.

It's been two seasons know where injuries have dictated our season. I don't blame Vanney for protecting his starting lineup against a shit team in miserable conditions. That lineup should've done better. Keeping 0-0 until the 75th when you introduce a couple players to turn the tide was the least these guys should've done. The players failed - not Vanney.

[OgtheDim]

We didn't need a defensively sound lineup for that game. Houston have been completed garbage the past two games - TFC should've won with the lineup that was out there. And with them not being defensively sound, what good are they? They couldn't even score.

It's been two seasons know where injuries have dictated our season. I don't blame Vanney for protecting his starting lineup against a shit team in miserable conditions. That lineup should've done better. Keeping 0-0 until the 75th when you introduce a couple players to turn the tide was the least these guys should've done. The players failed - not Vanney.

Although I agree that the players lost this game, not the coach, there is an aspect of all this that is on Vanney - the system of playing from the back.

I find it hard to believe that we have spent the last 6 years with only 3 CB's who defend rather then make plays - Caldwell, Moor & now Gonzalez.

There comes a time when the system that requires CB's to make passes has to run up against the reality that most guys who can do that & defend well are not playing in North America.

TFC's recruitment of CB's relies too much on athleticism.

My worry is that "make the big play when defending" approach is creeping into others. How many times did Fraser go down on Saturday to make a tackle? 6 to 7 times. How many times has Bradley done that in his TFC career? Maybe the same amount.

[Canary10]

Was there anyone on this board who didn’t look at the starting lineup at 6:30 on Saturday, grimace and say uh-oh? At best it was a dice roll. I don’t think we’re in a position in the table to dice roll.

Over the years Vanney has treated squad rotation as an all or nothing thing (unless there are injuries). That’s a criticism I think.

There is no saviour-in-waiting so it doesn’t make sense to remove him but I think he has the rest of the season. This team should still be top 5 in the east at a minimum.

[stegosaurus]

Although I agree that the players lost this game, not the coach, there is an aspect of all this that is on Vanney - the system of playing from the back.

I find it hard to believe that we have spent the last 6 years with only 3 CB's who defend rather then make plays - Caldwell, Moor & now Gonzalez.

There comes a time when the system that requires CB's to make passes has to run up against the reality that most guys who can do that & defend well are not playing in North America.

TFC's recruitment of CB's relies too much on athleticism.

My worry is that "make the big play when defending" approach is creeping into others. How many times did Fraser go down on Saturday to make a tackle? 6 to 7 times. How many times has Bradley done that in his TFC career? Maybe the same amount.

Yeah, I think I have specifically harped on a couple of these points for ages now.

All the other issues surrounding that game — rest, injuries, Houston sucking, Vanney wanting to send a message, aliens, etc. — just detract from what actually happened on the pitch even though they may have contributed.

Defensively the team was bad, the lineup lacked any significant defensive threat other than Morrow, and tactically there was no adaptation that made logical sense considering the conditions and the opposing team until the second half.

When Jozy/Sberg came on it looked better because there was actually some legit attacking prowess not seen on the pitch until that point, which took some of the pressure off the defense (and more when Bradley came on).

I don’t think Vanney intentionally put Fraser in this position, but by virtue of the squad and how they played he did up leaving him out to dry.

[ag futbol]

Was there anyone on this board who didn’t look at the starting lineup at 6:30 on Saturday, grimace and say uh-oh? At best it was a dice roll. I don’t think we’re in a position in the table to dice roll.

Over the years Vanney has treated squad rotation as an all or nothing thing (unless there are injuries). That’s a criticism I think.

There is no saviour-in-waiting so it doesn’t make sense to remove him but I think he has the rest of the season. This team should still be top 5 in the east at a minimum.
I’d be more concerned about how we play and how the team responds when adjustments are needed vs. our actual place in the standings (although i’d consider the playoffs a minimum bar).

Agreed Re: Rotation. Needs to be more sensical.

[ensco]

I don’t think a lot of this is right. It is kind of obvious that Vanney gambled more (or more precisely, got more conservative about injuries) because he had six points in his pocket from the previous two games.

He is scarred by what has happened over the last 18 months injury-wise (as are we all).

[MightyDM]

I don’t think a lot of this is right. It is kind of obvious that Vanney gambled more (or more precisely, got more conservative about injuries) because he had six points in his pocket from the previous two games.

He is scarred by what has happened over the last 18 months injury-wise (as are we all).

Maybe. But he gambled dumb. The fact that his first comments after the match bemoaned a lack of leadership but there was no outfield player he trusted to Captain the side sums his approach up - not thought through.

And they need to have a serious look at their training practices. Waaay too many muscular injuries.

[jabbronies]

I'm seeing this season play out similar to how 2016 played out after 22 games:

2016
9-6-7

2019
8-5-9

We ended up making ground in the back half of the season when we had a full roster. I'll start to worry when we are not in a playoff spot in September. For now, I'm cautiously optimistic.

[Auzzy]

I don’t think a lot of this is right. It is kind of obvious that Vanney gambled more (or more precisely, got more conservative about injuries) because he had six points in his pocket from the previous two games.

He is scarred by what has happened over the last 18 months injury-wise (as are we all).

This isn't a response to you in particular; but I've read similar thoughts from folks on here, as well as a couple of journos...

Maybe Vanney thinks he needed to massively rotate like that to avoid injury; and due to the oppressive weather. Still didn't make any sense to do it so drastically. Instead he should constantly be rotating more subtly, but he rarely does. A couple of thoughts:
- Vanney very often starts subbing later than the other coach. So many games (over multiple seasons) I remember thinking: TFC is dragging along; the team needs a change; the opponent is wearing us down. But so often the subs happen late; i.e. too late to affect the game. In fact there have been many games when Vanney only got his first sub in after conceding a goal.

- There have even been plenty of games where Vanney didn't use all 3 subs despite an obvious need for fresh blood; or the last subs so late that it mostly just kills time and the players hardly touch the ball.

- Vanney hardly ever subs out certain players, even if they play a ton of games & put in lots of miles. Case in point: Bradley. How many games have we seen Bradley slowing down towards the end of the game? Why don't we occasionally see him come off for the last 10-20 minutes? He's 31 now; in a position that requires covering lots of ground; plus international games; and contract status unclear. That's also the way to ease in & test new players in that midfield role: with training wheels. I.e. against tired opposition; with good defenders behind you, & a decent defensive midfield mindset around you. Then gradually increase their responsibilities, if they earn it. Don't drop a bomb, expect all these loose parts to perform together; and then publicly grade their performance afterwards w/o taking any responsibility as the coach.

- I think the extreme roster turnover of Saturday was particularly bad for avoiding injury, and to deal with the extreme heat & humidity. His subs were basically forced, in an attempt to rescue the game after we were already down a couple of goals, and Houston's game plan was working to a tee. Vanney couldn't make the subs adhoc based on who was the most tired, and the most affected by the heat. For example, I felt that Osorio and Morrow really needed a break before the end of the game; probably also Fraser. But all 3 subs had already been made in desperation.


BTW I think Vanney's subs have gotten much better than in his first year here. But sometimes his squad management still seems more stuck in theory than in reality.

I'm also not #VanneyOut yet; just pissed. A couple of times he has responded well to pressure from above; gotten out of his ivory tower and become more pragmatic.

What worries me the most here, is Vanney's public response after the game. We will see how this affects his squad selection & tactics going forward. But I feel like it might go in the wrong direction, and he's not learning all he could from that.

[Bushmancan]

I'm seeing this season play out similar to how 2016 played out after 22 games:

2016
9-6-7

2019
8-5-9

We ended up making ground in the back half of the season when we had a full roster. I'll start to worry when we are not in a playoff spot in September. For now, I'm cautiously optimistic.

I guess my frustration is more to the point.... we would be riding a three game winning streak, in a more secure playoff spot, with hopefully 4 in a row with a win this Saturday. Our House would be a fortress again and optimism for the road trips would be at a 2017 high.

Just a stupid, stupid, very stupid loss.

[jabbronies]

I guess my frustration is more to the point.... we would be riding a three game winning streak, in a more secure playoff spot, with hopefully 4 in a row with a win this Saturday. Our House would be a fortress again and optimism for the road trips would be at a 2017 high.

Just a stupid, stupid, very stupid loss.

No doubt it was a very stupid loss, but I think there are two camps debating here:
- is it the players fault
or
- the managers fault for playing those players.

Keep in mind - that lineup may show it's ugly face again in September when the international break hits us and we lose Jozy, Bradley, Omar, Oso - and if Mavinga and Poz are out for some odd ball reason.

[Auzzy]

No doubt it was a very stupid loss, but I think there are two camps debating here:
- is it the players fault
or
- the managers fault for playing those players.

Keep in mind - that lineup may show it's ugly face again in September when the international break hits us and we lose Jozy, Bradley, Omar, Oso - and if Mavinga and Poz are out for some odd ball reason.

I think it was the players' fault and the manager's fault, latter mostly by putting players into situations that they couldn't handle well.

[Initial B]

I think it was the players' fault and the manager's fault, latter mostly by putting players into situations that they couldn't handle well.
I have to agree with this, since good managers know the strengths and weaknesses of their players and know how to put them in the best position to succeed. Vanney didn't do that. However, if he thought he was helping them to succeed, then he doesn't know his players as well as he thought.

[ensco]

I am slowly being persuaded by the criticism, which is weird. I didn’t feel it at all in the moment, but I wasn’t there. So I put it down to people being pissed they paid for B team tickets. Also I rate Houston as a decent side, road record notwithstanding.

But a lot of these posts are making sense to me. Auzzy's above is very good. Vanney really is not great at managing fixture congestion, doing in game subs, etc.

I am still ride or die, until season end anyways.

Do we expect too much? We are only 15 months removed from Guadalajara.

What is the standard for how much grace a fan base should give a management team after they win a championship (and TFC did more than that)?

[MightyDM]

I am slowly being persuaded by the criticism, which is weird. I didn’t feel it at all in the moment, but I wasn’t there. So I put it down to people being pissed they paid for B team tickets. Also I rate Houston as a decent side, road record notwithstanding.

But a lot of these posts are making sense to me. Auzzy's above is very good. Vanney really is not great at managing fixture congestion, doing in game subs, etc.

I am still ride or die, until season end anyways.

Do we expect too much? We are only 15 months removed from Guadalajara.

What is the standard for how much grace a fan base should give a management team after they win a championship (and TFC did more than that)?

Vanney should be a legend here. So should Seba, VV, Jozy and Bradley. Forever. (And Cheyrou and Nick Hagglund but I am getting distracted)

Not really Manning for me

But we need Vanney to help us - games like Saturdays are really frustrating. One or two fewer key changes and it’s a different game. So lots of rope - no Vanney out - but dude, let’s get it right.

[backbeat]

not to belabour but again - there was no, zero match fixing, none imho

for me it was poor managing, period - not the players fault

there were far too many first 11 changes to put this on the players

i'd get the point if there were a couple of changes and they didn't perform but to throw that many in, without support of experience, is to throw them under the bus, imo

what bothered me more were Vanney's post game comments that the energy level wasn't there, and that it showed to him that he gave players the chance/opportunity and they didn't show up

to the point i made above this is so disingenuous and unfair, it's naive management - you need to slip new/young players into the mix surrounded by your core group for support and development - all he did was diminish confidence and growth

my other issue is that TFC is entertainment - i had a row in front of me with young kids attending their one game of the season with their parents with no notable names on the team and i felt badly for them. i know you manage to win, which he didn't do anyway, but as this is a growing sport you really should think, especially for a home match, of the people attending

i said this to my season ticket neighbour, that if i had seen this lineup before i got on the GO train i would have stayed at home and watch from my couch - we were both pissed, and not with drink....

[stevep]

not to belabour but again - there was no, zero match fixing, none imho

for me it was poor managing, period - not the players fault

there were far too many first 11 changes to put this on the players

i'd get the point if there were a couple of changes and they didn't perform but to throw that many in, without support of experience, is to throw them under the bus, imo

what bothered me more were Vanney's post game comments that the energy level wasn't there, and that it showed to him that he gave players the chance/opportunity and they didn't show up

to the point i made above this is so disingenuous and unfair, it's naive management - you need to slip new/young players into the mix surrounded by your core group for support and development - all he did was diminish confidence and growth

my other issue is that TFC is entertainment - i had a row in front of me with young kids attending their one game of the season with their parents with no notable names on the team and i felt badly for them. i know you manage to win, which he didn't do anyway, but as this is a growing sport you really should think, especially for a home match, of the people attending

i said this to my season ticket neighbour, that if i had seen this lineup before i got on the GO train i would have stayed at home and watch from my couch - we were both pissed, and not with drink....

at around 6pm tfc win probability was around 62%, 25% tie and about 15% chance of a loss
at 630pm when lineups were announced tfc win probability went down to 50% tie 25% and a loss jumped to 25%

tfc still had a 50% chance of winning the game even with those changes, it is a questionable decision by vanney to put the b squad out there to say the least

[stevep]

not to belabour but again - there was no, zero match fixing, none imho

for me it was poor managing, period - not the players fault

there were far too many first 11 changes to put this on the players

i'd get the point if there were a couple of changes and they didn't perform but to throw that many in, without support of experience, is to throw them under the bus, imo

what bothered me more were Vanney's post game comments that the energy level wasn't there, and that it showed to him that he gave players the chance/opportunity and they didn't show up

to the point i made above this is so disingenuous and unfair, it's naive management - you need to slip new/young players into the mix surrounded by your core group for support and development - all he did was diminish confidence and growth

my other issue is that TFC is entertainment - i had a row in front of me with young kids attending their one game of the season with their parents with no notable names on the team and i felt badly for them. i know you manage to win, which he didn't do anyway, but as this is a growing sport you really should think, especially for a home match, of the people attending

i said this to my season ticket neighbour, that if i had seen this lineup before i got on the GO train i would have stayed at home and watch from my couch - we were both pissed, and not with drink....

i would like to discuss your last two paragraphs.

this was exactly how I felt, this was a disrespect to everyone who purchased a ticket

this was why i was so incenced by the Goodson post that said we are all a bunch of entitled babies.

were those children that came to see jozy, pozo, bradley a bunch of entitled babies?
were the people that travelled 3 hours from London to see tfc's best on the field a bunch of entitled babies? 3 hours!! and then to see that lineup
is it too much to want to see your team put out the best players and win? or are we entitled babies?

It was absolutely disrespectful to all the fans to have a lineup like that on a beautiful Saturday night game.
we don't need that kind of commentary on this board,

[Auzzy]

i would like to discuss your last two paragraphs.

this was exactly how I felt, this was a disrespect to everyone who purchased a ticket

this was why i was so incenced by the ensco post that said we are all a bunch of entitled babies.

were those children that came to see jozy, pozo, bradley a bunch of entitled babies?
were the people that travelled 3 hours from London to see tfc's best on the field a bunch of entitled babies? 3 hours!! and then to see that lineup
is it too much to want to see your team put out the best players and win? or are we entitled babies?

It was absolutely disrespectful to all the fans to have a lineup like that on a beautiful Saturday night game.
we don't need that kind of commentary on this board,

You've got something mixed up. ensco didn't say anything about entitlement. In fact, he wrote 'No way do I think that the people who are upset are “wrong”.'

It was actually TheGoodson who was talking about entitlement, whining, & a bunch of other stuff. I didn't get around to responding to him yet. Probably not worth it.

[stevep]

You've got something mixed up. ensco didn't say anything about entitlement. In fact, he wrote 'No way do I think that the people who are upset are “wrong”.'

It was actually TheGoodson who was talking about entitlement, whining, & a bunch of other stuff. I didn't get around to responding to him yet. Probably not worth it.

Oops, you are right. Boy do I feel dumb now. I edited my post and removed his good name and put in TheGoodson

[stevep]

[QUOTE=stevep;1904282]at around 6pm tfc win probability was around 62%, 25% tie and about 15% chance of a loss
at 630pm when lineups were announced tfc win probability went down to 50% tie 25% and a loss jumped to 25%

tfc still had a 50% chance of winning the game even with those changes, it is a questionable decision by vanney to put the b squad out there to say the least. Also, why in the world would a coach drop his winning percentage this much before a game. A game where we really needed this three points.
As of now we are not in the playoffs. It's truly baffling

[ensco]

You've got something mixed up. ensco didn't say anything about entitlement. In fact, he wrote 'No way do I think that the people who are upset are “wrong”.'

It was actually TheGoodson who was talking about entitlement, whining, & a bunch of other stuff. I didn't get around to responding to him yet. Probably not worth it.

I actually did say something along the lines of “are people too entitled?” around 11pm. No way did I call anyone babies, and I am not engaging with this guy anymore.

But thanks. The spirit of what you posted is correct.

[TheGoodson]

Vanney deserves to the end of the year and then reevaluate at that point. I’m not sure any other coach could get more out of this squad with all the injuries and absences. Is Vanney the right man to lead the revamped squad going forward I’m not sure. There are very few coaches that are guaranteed success in the MLS and I’m not sure any of them are available.

But further to the other thread my point is this. If Vanney ran out all of the players with no rotation and the players get injured then what? Our season is done and it’s august and many on this board would be up in arms. That was my point which I did not convey correctly. I just found the comments about “match fixing” absurd and then went off due to being called a corporate shill.

further more if I offended anyone I apologize, that was not my intent.

We all want the the same thing at the end of the day

[Blindside16]

I agree with your statement regarding Vanney. He deserves the rest of the season and outside of Frasier as interim, there is no one that can jump into that role and succesfully save the season. Is Vanney the right man moving forward to next season, I have strong doubts but would like to be proven wrong. I purposely stayed off this board until now so that I can look at things more objectively after having to sit through that 90+ minutes of mediocrity on Saturday. I feel that Chapman, Zavaleta and possibly Ciman have played there last games this season and possibly as a Red. To be that shockingly bad cannot be tolerated without consequence.

For me what is being overlooked in all the #Vanneyout talk is why is our training and medical staff being held more accountable. It was raised on this board, I cannot remember if it was this post or another, that the majority of our knocks and injuries come from training. How is in possible for a team to see this many injuries, and repeat ones to boot, and no one in a senior position bats an eye towards the training and medical staff. Manning said we were bringing in this sports science team to work with the team. Since then the list of hurt players has not changed. Auro x2, Moor, Altidore, Osorio, Mavinga, Bradley, Ciman, DeLeon, Morrow have all been out hurt and those are just off the top of my head. Oh and don't foget Gallardo. It is not entirely Vanneys fault but to field a week line up at home when you are in a dog fight for a play off spot is not that smartest choice. Especially considering unless we shoot up the standings we will not have a home playoff game.

[MightyDM]

I agree with your statement regarding Vanney. He deserves the rest of the season and outside of Frasier as interim, there is no one that can jump into that role and succesfully save the season. Is Vanney the right man moving forward to next season, I have strong doubts but would like to be proven wrong. I purposely stayed off this board until now so that I can look at things more objectively after having to sit through that 90+ minutes of mediocrity on Saturday. I feel that Chapman, Zavaleta and possibly Ciman have played there last games this season and possibly as a Red. To be that shockingly bad cannot be tolerated without consequence.

For me what is being overlooked in all the #Vanneyout talk is why is our training and medical staff being held more accountable. It was raised on this board, I cannot remember if it was this post or another, that the majority of our knocks and injuries come from training. How is in possible for a team to see this many injuries, and repeat ones to boot, and no one in a senior position bats an eye towards the training and medical staff. Manning said we were bringing in this sports science team to work with the team. Since then the list of hurt players has not changed. Auro x2, Moor, Altidore, Osorio, Mavinga, Bradley, Ciman, DeLeon, Morrow have all been out hurt and those are just off the top of my head. Oh and don't foget Gallardo. It is not entirely Vanneys fault but to field a week line up at home when you are in a dog fight for a play off spot is not that smartest choice. Especially considering unless we shoot up the standings we will not have a home playoff game.

I was one of the people who raised the fact that our injuries are muscular training injuries and this is a constant problem. It’s quite obvious, really.

Last week I went to a training session with my son, who is a serious player. It is at a very advanced sports science facility. I asked the trainer why TFC has so many muscular injuries. He didn’t really want to comment directly as he has advised TFC in the past, but in a very respectful way he basically said that they overtrain (like all the teams in MLS )- he said “they are very American” - and implied that they don’t use the latest sports science. I understood him to mean that a player like Michael Bradley will train well using their methods as he has infinite endurance but that others might not. He said that sometimes training differently - more focus on high intensity short workouts for example - is far more successful than an approach focused solely on endurance.

He was very careful not to criticize TFC or its training staff directly, more comments about the league, but that’s what he meant.

I think it goes back to Nelsen. We have to assume that Nelsen was aware of the most modern Premier League methods but we were told “he didn’t train hard enough” etc. It could be that there is something to the point about overtraining - and Nelsen knew it.

[MightyDM]

I agree with your statement regarding Vanney. He deserves the rest of the season and outside of Frasier as interim, there is no one that can jump into that role and succesfully save the season. Is Vanney the right man moving forward to next season, I have strong doubts but would like to be proven wrong. I purposely stayed off this board until now so that I can look at things more objectively after having to sit through that 90+ minutes of mediocrity on Saturday. I feel that Chapman, Zavaleta and possibly Ciman have played there last games this season and possibly as a Red. To be that shockingly bad cannot be tolerated without consequence.

For me what is being overlooked in all the #Vanneyout talk is why is our training and medical staff being held more accountable. It was raised on this board, I cannot remember if it was this post or another, that the majority of our knocks and injuries come from training. How is in possible for a team to see this many injuries, and repeat ones to boot, and no one in a senior position bats an eye towards the training and medical staff. Manning said we were bringing in this sports science team to work with the team. Since then the list of hurt players has not changed. Auro x2, Moor, Altidore, Osorio, Mavinga, Bradley, Ciman, DeLeon, Morrow have all been out hurt and those are just off the top of my head. Oh and don't foget Gallardo. It is not entirely Vanneys fault but to field a week line up at home when you are in a dog fight for a play off spot is not that smartest choice. Especially considering unless we shoot up the standings we will not have a home playoff game.

I was one of the people who raised the fact that our injuries are muscular training injuries and this is a constant problem. It’s quite obvious, really.

Last week I went to a training session with my son, who is a serious player. It is at a very advanced sports science facility. I asked the trainer why TFC has so many muscular injuries. He didn’t really want to comment directly as he has advised TFC in the past, but in a very respectful way he basically said that they overtrain (like all the teams in MLS )- he said “they are very American” - and implied that they don’t use the latest sports science. I understood him to mean that a player like Michael Bradley will train well using their methods as he has infinite endurance but that others might not. He said that sometimes training differently - more focus on high intensity short workouts for example - is far more successful than an approach focused solely on endurance.

He was very careful not to criticize TFC or its training staff directly, more comments about the league, but that’s what he meant.

I think it goes back to Nelsen. We have to assume that Nelsen was aware of the most modern Premier League methods but we were told “he didn’t train hard enough” etc. It could be that there is something to the point about overtraining - and Nelsen knew it.

[OgtheDim]

I'm not sure of the answer to this but if we are to discuss injury totals, what is the injury amount of other teams in this league?

2017 we had few injuries. 2018 we had a lot. And Manning said they needed to fix that. I'm sure they got the numbers to compare things but we don't.

Objectively, what is the usual injury amount within this league? Because without knowing that, we are only basing it on "well I feel we have a lot" - the unspoken part of that phrase is "compared to". Heck, I feel we have a lot compared to but is there anything out there actually describing what is going on there in this crazy league with all the travel & weather?

The metric might be games lost to injury but where to find that is problematic for supporters. The MLS injury report is laughable https://www.mlssoccer.com/injuries.

MLB puts people on Injury lists officially and those get tracked. https://www.spotrac.com/mlb/disabled-list/cumulative-team/

But, we got nothing so we are just eyeballing this like a carpenter without a measuring tape.


All part of the frustrating opaqueness of this league.

[OgtheDim]

I was one of the people who raised the fact that our injuries are muscular training injuries and this is a constant problem. It’s quite obvious, really.

Last week I went to a training session with my son, who is a serious player. It is at a very advanced sports science facility. I asked the trainer why TFC has so many muscular injuries. He didn’t really want to comment directly as he has advised TFC in the past, but in a very respectful way he basically said that they overtrain (like all the teams in MLS )- he said “they are very American” - and implied that they don’t use the latest sports science. I understood him to mean that a player like Michael Bradley will train well using their methods as he has infinite endurance but that others might not. He said that sometimes training differently - more focus on high intensity short workouts for example - is far more successful than an approach focused solely on endurance.

He was very careful not to criticize TFC or its training staff directly, more comments about the league, but that’s what he meant.

I think it goes back to Nelsen. We have to assume that Nelsen was aware of the most modern Premier League methods but we were told “he didn’t train hard enough” etc. It could be that there is something to the point about overtraining - and Nelsen knew it.

Interesting anecdote. Thanks.

We have been told that Nelsen at the time overtrained in the old English style & that's why we had so many injuries at the time. "We just need to get fit" was one of his stock phrases.

[jabbronies]

I'm not sure of the answer to this but if we are to discuss injury totals, what is the injury amount of other teams in this league?

2017 we had few injuries. 2018 we had a lot. And Manning said they needed to fix that. I'm sure they got the numbers to compare things but we don't.

Objectively, what is the usual injury amount within this league? Because without knowing that, we are only basing it on "well I feel we have a lot" - the unspoken part of that phrase is "compared to". Heck, I feel we have a lot compared to but is there anything out there actually describing what is going on there in this crazy league with all the travel & weather?

The metric might be games lost to injury but where to find that is problematic for supporters. The MLS injury report is laughable https://www.mlssoccer.com/injuries.

MLB puts people on Injury lists officially and those get tracked. https://www.spotrac.com/mlb/disabled-list/cumulative-team/

But, we got nothing so we are just eyeballing this like a carpenter without a measuring tape.


All part of the frustrating opaqueness of this league.


If we playing more games where we are missing more than 3 starters due to injury than not - that is too many injuries.
If multiple starters are missing more than half a season because of injuries - that's too many injuries

[jabbronies]

I agree with your statement regarding Vanney. He deserves the rest of the season and outside of Frasier as interim, there is no one that can jump into that role and succesfully save the season. Is Vanney the right man moving forward to next season, I have strong doubts but would like to be proven wrong. I purposely stayed off this board until now so that I can look at things more objectively after having to sit through that 90+ minutes of mediocrity on Saturday. I feel that Chapman, Zavaleta and possibly Ciman have played there last games this season and possibly as a Red. To be that shockingly bad cannot be tolerated without consequence.


Chapman's replacement is already showing promise in Shafellburg
Ciman is an easy release.
Zavaleta - as much as I hate him and think he's shit - is a tougher replacement at this point - he's cheap and with a good defender beside him - he's got experience. But I'm not against letting him go if we have a cheap replacement with experience

[backbeat]

Chapman's replacement is already showing promise in Shafellburg
Ciman is an easy release.
Zavaleta - as much as I hate him and think he's shit - is a tougher replacement at this point - he's cheap and with a good defender beside him - he's got experience. But I'm not against letting him go if we have a cheap replacement with experience


i thought Zavaleta was making $300K? is so that's not cheap to me.

As for Ciman at $435K we should be able to do much better imo

[jabbronies]

i thought Zavaleta was making $300K? is so that's not cheap to me.

Oh damn - i thought he was still at 225K (2018 salary)...but if he's gone up to that, it's a bit $$ Not sure what we could get for that $ at backup CB

**EDIT** just checked - he's $275. Again, not the most $$ player, but considering Deleon is on $165K - there could be better out there.





As for Ciman at $435K we should be able to do much better imo

ya we could do better - and not even at the CB position. I feel like he was just an answer to losing Cheyrou. More a leadership thing than a positional thing - I can't see why else we'd pick him up

[Auzzy]

The metric might be games lost to injury but where to find that is problematic for supporters. The MLS injury report is laughable https://www.mlssoccer.com/injuries.

<snip>

All part of the frustrating opaqueness of this league.

In that vein, TFC had nobody listed as injured or questionable in the league preview for the Houston game: https://matchcenter.mlssoccer.com/matchcenter/2019-07-20-toronto-fc-vs-houston-dynamo/preview

Subjectively, I also feel there's way less deep coverage of TFC than there was in the past. A number of journalists that used to cover TFC have been let go or re-assigned. Most of the rest work for Bogers. It seems like it would be obvious to ask about that mystical sports science company that Manning had promised, given ongoing injury concerns. But nobody in the media mentions it.

[stegosaurus]

Chapman's replacement is already showing promise in Shafellburg
Ciman is an easy release.
Zavaleta - as much as I hate him and think he's shit - is a tougher replacement at this point - he's cheap and with a good defender beside him - he's got experience. But I'm not against letting him go if we have a cheap replacement with experience

Zavaleta isn’t cheap.

Sberg and Chapman don’t play the same positions.

[jabbronies]

Zavaleta isn’t cheap.

Sberg and Chapman don’t play the same positions.

But it's a roster spot. Why keep Chapman and work around him and his position when you can work around Shaffelburg.

And if you read the thread, you see that I was under the impression he was still on his last year 200K salary - which would've been cheap.
This years 275K salary isn't expensive, but not cheap either.

[stegosaurus]

But it's a roster spot. Why keep Chapman and work around him and his position when you can work around Shaffelburg.

And if you read the thread, you see that I was under the impression he was still on his last year 200K salary - which would've been cheap.
This years 275K salary isn't expensive, but not cheap either.

It’s expensive for a bad backup defender in MLS. Chapman also fills a role we’d need to acquire another player for. Even through I don’t think Chapman is very capable, he’s domestic, local, and actually cheap. We don’t have anyone else to play a creative midfield role other than Osorio who should be playing when fit given his contract increase.

[jabbronies]

It’s expensive for a bad backup defender in MLS. Chapman also fills a role we’d need to acquire another player for. Even through I don’t think Chapman is very capable, he’s domestic, local, and actually cheap. We don’t have anyone else to play a creative midfield role other than Osorio who should be playing when fit given his contract increase.

I'm all for getting rid of Zavaleta - I just don't know what you'd expect to get back for that amount of money.

As for Chapman - he's plateaued. He's not getting any better and he isn't that good. At this point, when the need arises - I'd rather shuffle the formation to make Shaffelburg work rather than put Chapman in.

[TFC Tifoso]

I can see why Vanney would do what he did yesterday. I don't agree with it, but I understand why he did it. and TBH - I still wouldn't sack him:

With regards to all 3 DP's sitting:
- There have been many in TFC land who have said Michael Bradley can be easily replaced by Liam Fraiser. I'm hoping that argument has now been put to rest.
- Jozy Altiodre is on Load management. That's the only way we can guarantee he stays fit for the August / September run and then playoffs. There is no argument against that.
- Pozuelo is hurt - we all saw him get hacked. There's nothing anyone could do about that.

With regards to Ciman and Zavaletta starting:
- Moor is done and Mavinga probably hurt again or he is being Load managed like Altiorde.
- Omar can't just walk in and take Ciman's place on the roster, even though everyone knows Omar should. There's seniority that has to play out, you still have to give Ciman a reason why his place is being taken away from him.
- Ciman is showing time and time again that he isn't the player he was 2 years ago. He's done. This is just another example of why he'll need to be let go at the end of the year, no matter how "Fit" people will claim he is
- Zavaleta - that's on Greg. Although with everything else being mentioned above, who do you start?

I honestly cannot for a second see how or why everyone is so up in arms about the line up from the weekend....

Q, Morrow, Gonzalez, Delgado, Bradley, Shaff, Poz, and Jozy all played on the 13th and 17.

I can't comprehend how people expected them to play on Saturday as well in 45 degree heat...that's asking for a disaster to happen.
Then the talk if one of them did get hurt would be "Vanney should've rested them, blah, blah, blah..."

The only thing that was unfortunate was that he had to burn a home game to rest these players.
But my immediate thought when I saw the line up was that he was paying attention to the big picture....

We're in a playoff spot as of right now, our squad is getting healthier, NT games are done, and some reinforcements have arrived.
We had to wait just about 5 months to see a complete squad (and are still not entirely there), but that has more to do with Curtis and Manning than it does Vanney.
We will smash the second half of the year.

[Canary10]

I honestly cannot for a second see how or why everyone is so up in arms about the line up from the weekend....

Q, Morrow, Gonzalez, Delgado, Bradley, Shaff, Poz, and Jozy all played on the 13th and 17.

I can't comprehend how people expected them to play on Saturday as well in 45 degree heat...that's asking for a disaster to happen.
Then the talk if one of them did get hurt would be "Vanney should've rested them, blah, blah, blah..."

The only thing that was unfortunate was that he had to burn a home game to rest these players.
But my immediate thought when I saw the line up was that he was paying attention to the big picture....

We're in a playoff spot as of right now, our squad is getting healthier, NT games are done, and some reinforcements have arrived.
We had to wait just about 5 months to see a complete squad (and are still not entirely there), but that has more to do with Curtis and Manning than it does Vanney.
We will smash the second half of the year.

We're not in a playoff spot as of now.

[C.Ronaldo]

Zavaleta isn’t cheap.

Sberg and Chapman don’t play the same positions.

Endoh is a better replacement than chapman, and maybe its the extra minutes in TFC2, but he has shown much more progress

[TFC Tifoso]

We're not in a playoff spot as of now.

oops ya i miscounted....anyways, the rest still holds imo...

[Canary10]

oops ya i miscounted....anyways, the rest still holds imo...

I think it shows how tight things are. All home points are important, especially with formerly really crap teams like New England suddenly looking good.

[TFC Tifoso]

I think it shows how tight things are. All home points are important, especially with formerly really crap teams like New England suddenly looking good.

Definitely tight, but wins are wins.
I don't see it as home points vs road points....I saw 2 wins out of 3 games in 8 days.

2 out 3 ain't bad....Meatloaf tells no lies....

I really think this team will show us something down the stretch.

[stegosaurus]

I'm all for getting rid of Zavaleta - I just don't know what you'd expect to get back for that amount of money.

As for Chapman - he's plateaued. He's not getting any better and he isn't that good. At this point, when the need arises - I'd rather shuffle the formation to make Shaffelburg work rather than put Chapman in.

You can get an incompetent backup CB for MLS minimum so there’s virtually no point in keeping Zavaleta.

We don’t even have a backup winger. We have Sberg who is young, raw, and probably going to get seriously hurt at some point, and Gallardo who no one has seen play here. That’s why Chapman has been playing in a role he isn’t any good at. Putting Sberg in Chapman’s natural position would probably make him look inept and be a waste, especially since he needs to play if Vanney intends to play a 4-3-3.

You need backup players, and Chapman is good for a few goals or assists when playing in the right spot usually. Even if he hasn’t progressed, likely never will, etc.

The FO would probably gladly ship him off (wouldn’t bother me at all) and replace him with some cast-off USMNT player who won’t be useful either.

[OgtheDim]

You can get an incompetent backup CB for MLS minimum so there’s virtually no point in keeping Zavaleta.



Can't ditch contracts like that more then 1 per year & nobody is going to take him at that wage.

Need proof?

The guy who gave him that contract won't trade a bag of balls for him.

[stegosaurus]

Can't ditch contracts like that more then 1 per year & nobody is going to take him at that wage.

Need proof?

The guy who gave him that contract won't trade a bag of balls for him.

Yep, I’m well aware. It sucks that we could basically draw waiver straws each year and still not get rid of the dead weight at this point.

[MightyDM]

I'm all for getting rid of Zavaleta - I just don't know what you'd expect to get back for that amount of money.

As for Chapman - he's plateaued. He's not getting any better and he isn't that good. At this point, when the need arises - I'd rather shuffle the formation to make Shaffelburg work rather than put Chapman in.chapman was on an upward path for the first part of the season, when used properly. Not fair to say he has plateaued. But he is behind Poz Oso and Delgado in the depth chart.

[paul-collins]

We're not in a playoff spot as of now.
Game in hand over Montreal though

[ag futbol]

chapman was on an upward path for the first part of the season, when used properly. Not fair to say he has plateaued. But he is behind Poz Oso and Delgado in the depth chart.
This is the whole problem with Chapman’s career. His position is one that almost always taken up by foreign talent and a key role on the team. It’s tough justify giving starter minutes to a domestic in that spot unless he’s absolutely lights out.

He really, really needs to work on his defence. If he did that he could easily slot into another Delgado type spot and use some of his abilities as a deep lying playmaker.

Now that said, I do not think Vanney has helped his development. He’s getting more bland and less adventurous all the time.

[MightyDM]

This is the whole problem with Chapman’s career. His position is one that almost always taken up by foreign talent and a key role on the team. It’s tough justify giving starter minutes to a domestic in that spot unless he’s absolutely lights out.

He really, really needs to work on his defence. If he did that he could easily slot into another Delgado type spot and use some of his abilities as a deep lying playmaker.

Now that said, I do not think Vanney has helped his development. He’s getting more bland and less adventurous all the time.

This is very fair

[stegosaurus]

This is very fair

I’m obviously not the most ardent Chapman supporter, but I agree. It’s unfortunate, because he’s clearly capable of contributing in a specific role.

[C.Ronaldo]

This is the whole problem with Chapman’s career. His position is one that almost always taken up by foreign talent and a key role on the team. It’s tough justify giving starter minutes to a domestic in that spot unless he’s absolutely lights out.

He really, really needs to work on his defence. If he did that he could easily slot into another Delgado type spot and use some of his abilities as a deep lying playmaker.

Now that said, I do not think Vanney has helped his development. He’s getting more bland and less adventurous all the time.


I'll never forget, a few years ago he just gave up chase on a loose ball. Flat out stopped running
Albeit he was young, you only get so many opportunities to prove yourself

He clearly has the skill, perhaps its a mental / attitude issue like Hamilton