New Vanney evaluation thread

[OgtheDim]

The ratio is 20 shots for every goal. Once up a man, start firing from everywhere. But, this team relies upon speed and touches and technical ability to score - that's great and all and you'd think when up a man it would be easier but it isn't cause all they do is collapse. So, start shooting from way out just to get them moving. As a lot of us were saying last night....just shoot the effn ball.

To me, this bit of this team is on Vanney. The ability to adjust attacking style. Now, I did see a change from the SJE game where all we did was swing it wide (Cheyrou refused to shoot in that game BTW). They were attempting to barge through the middle a few times, which to me is more effective then the bad crossing we've seen. And Altidore is really good at that sort of game. But their are 3 options in attack, cross, taking it at defenders (our preferred) or long range shots. We don't do enough of the latter to keep teams honest. And that's a coaching thing.

Is it worth firing Vanney over? No. But right now its hurting us as defences know that one we go down a goal or go up a player, they can play compact and we can't break them down.

[OgtheDim]

The way to stop TFC is to chop Gio down.

Vanney has two months to find a real Plan B.

Well he might have 2 months if it turns out to be a groin tear and not just a strain. Journos were told afterwards Seba came into the game with a groin strain, tried to play through it, and then felt something.

I didn't see that much hack a Seba last night actually.

[ensco]

Well he might have 2 months if it turns out to be a groin tear and not just a strain. Journos were told afterwards Seba came into the game with a groin strain, tried to play through it, and then felt something.

I didn't see that much hack a Seba last night actually.

That's true. They hacked him in the playoffs repeatedly, not so much yesterday.

Point still stands. There are vocal dissenters, but I think TFC does not have answers when Gio is marked out of the game.

[DinamoTFC]

Team needs to practice 1v1 , 2v2 and a lot more shooting drills. The players are very very timid when it comes to attacking defenders 1v1. Only giovinco and occasional Osorio tries. Hopefully cooper has that Latin American creativity where they aren't shy to run at them.

Crossing isn't working against teams that bunker down, evident after 4 games being up a man. Need to go right at them with some unpredictability and shoot on goal and get rebounds or a lucky deflection. Then one that goal happens the game opens up.

[Soccer Mum]

Team needs to practice 1v1 , 2v2 and a lot more shooting drills. The players are very very timid when it comes to attacking defenders 1v1. Only giovinco and occasional Osorio tries. Hopefully cooper has that Latin American creativity where they aren't shy to run at them.

Crossing isn't working against teams that bunker down, evident after 4 games being up a man. Need to go right at them with some unpredictability and shoot on goal and get rebounds or a lucky deflection. Then one that goal happens the game opens up.

You should teach them.

[Hamilton_Red]

Vanney's mistake tonight was not as much what went wrong after the red card it was the first 20 minutes. Here is a team on a big high after a fantastic away trip and is top of the division, saturday night big crowd, pumped up fans with the tifo and we came out of the blocks like a wet squib. We should have been out like a whirlwind putting a tonne of pressure on and getting an early goal. 3 shots on target the whole game! Even if we had given a goal away early on the counter attack we would have had time. That weak first half and letting Montreal have some belief - they got fired up after the "injustice" of the red card. Biello probably gave a barnstormer speech at the half on that subject.

Still hurting after that loss.

[OgtheDim]

Just listened to the Vanney interview afterwards and...he pretty much said what I said about the attack.

We'll see if the team can learn this as this has been an issue for weeks now.

[Ossington Mental Youth]

Clearly thus is something Vanney has to work on. Worth firing him while we are first in the east and still contending for supporters shield? Ridiculous

[paul-collins]

Is in normal to have 20% (6/31) of your games end with a man advantage? (I have not looked at it, I'm only counting the 6 ronzilla listed - it could be more than 6)

On the flip side, how many games have Toronto ended down a man?

I'm suspecting this is a "special teams" issue that has not been adequately addressed. It *feels* like the number of times we've been in this situation is unusually high. Perhaps they didn't feel it was something that would happen often enough to warrant attention - but clearly that has not proven to be true.

[DinamoTFC]

You should teach them.

Sorry if I hurt your feelings. But nothing I said was wrong. After watching every game this season that is their weaknesses. Many positives. But still a few things to work on down the stretch especially against bunker teams.

[Initial B]

I'm still okay with Vanney. So he has a weakness for dealing with being a man or two up at times. All MLS coaches have weaknesses, that's why they're still in MLS. We're not going to get anyone better, really. It's something I'm sure he'll work on in the offseason so he has a better plan of how to deal with those situations. #InVanneyWeTrust

[TMAN80]

Just listened to the Vanney interview afterwards and...he pretty much said what I said about the attack.

We'll see if the team can learn this as this has been an issue for weeks now.


Right. The crossing method is terrible and not working.

So why do you sub in Endoh(seba) who doesn't bring any other form of attack besides bad crosses, and cann't score on top of that, instead of Cheyrou. I'm not entirely sure on the timing of the next two subs, but they were 70+ minutes in. This is after 25 mins of non stop crosses, no real chances and a counter attack goal by Montreal.

Cheyrou needed to be in much sooner, and Rickets made no sense. I feel like Vanney just doesn't learn from what he sees. Cooper needed to come in to avoid what happened in similar games recently. Its not the players fault, because they are who they are. The same applies in any sport. You can't just "make" guys do what they are not comfortable doing, which for a lot of our guys, thats shooting from outside the box, and 1 v 1.

I don't want Vanney out, but man this guy has to start learning his players, and being more decisive. You keep doing the same thing with the same guys, don't expect different results.

[OgtheDim]

Look at the timing

67'


http://img.mlsdigital.net/www.mlssoccer.com/7/club/191/x50.png

Tsubasa Endoh
Sebastian GiovincoF




71'
http://img.mlsdigital.net/www.mlssoccer.com/7/club/191/x50.png

Tosaint Ricketts

Marco DelgadoM




76'
http://img.mlsdigital.net/www.mlssoccer.com/7/club/191/x50.png

Benoit Cheyrou

Steven BeitashourD






73'





Ignacio PiattiAssisted By: Dominic Oduro, Matteo Mancosu







Endoh was supposed to be for Delgado but Giovinco went down. I suspect Vanney would have gone 3-4-3 with Ricketts for Beitashour next and then Cheyrou as the last roll of the dice.

[TFC Tifoso]

Just listened to the Vanney interview afterwards and...he pretty much said what I said about the attack.

We'll see if the team can learn this as this has been an issue for weeks now.

and that's good for me. To hear that he at least acknowledged the problem and will be looking to correct it.
Its little things like that which I look for......this isn't a coach who would say something like "Well after they went down to 10 men they just bunkered down and we couldn't find a way around it."
To me that would show the guy is clueless.

But we need to start using the red card to our advantage....once or twice I get it, but this is a very odd trend now....

[C.Ronaldo]

That's true. They hacked him in the playoffs repeatedly, not so much yesterday.

Point still stands. There are vocal dissenters, but I think TFC does not have answers when Gio is marked out of the game.

Jham stepped up when needed
Babouli laso has that fire we need.

but Endoh keeps getting the chances, I've had enough of Endoh for 2016. He has the tools but he isn't a game changer, nor have i seen much progression on his D. He really could use some TFC2 time, but hes not allowed to go down is he?

[C.Ronaldo]

Look at the timing

67'


http://img.mlsdigital.net/www.mlssoccer.com/7/club/191/x50.png
Tsubasa Endoh
Sebastian GiovincoF



71'
http://img.mlsdigital.net/www.mlssoccer.com/7/club/191/x50.png
Tosaint Ricketts

Marco DelgadoM



76'
http://img.mlsdigital.net/www.mlssoccer.com/7/club/191/x50.png
Benoit Cheyrou

Steven BeitashourD





73'



Ignacio PiattiAssisted By: Dominic Oduro, Matteo Mancosu






Endoh was supposed to be for Delgado but Giovinco went down. I suspect Vanney would have gone 3-4-3 with Ricketts for Beitashour next and then Cheyrou as the last roll of the dice.

why didn't he go with Cheyrou at the half, we lacked creativity by that point

[OgtheDim]

The next 2 games will be key for how this season is seen. Time for Vanney to prove a few things.

[anto7]

According to an article I just read by John Molinaro, tomorrow marks the 2 year anniversary of when Vanney took over from Nelson.
He also states that Vanney is our longest serving coach in our history.
Considering the mess he took over and the years of constant mismanagement, I say he has done pretty well in positioning ourselves to be in contention to win the east and supporters shield.
Of course that could all still go off the rails in the next few weeks........but hopefully not.

[CBTFC]

Of course that could all still go off the rails in the next few weeks........but hopefully not.

It probably won't, but if for some reason it does we all know it will be 100% Vanney's coaching abilities and nothing to do with shooting the ball at the net instead of trying to tiki-taka every goal...

;)

[ag futbol]

The ratio is 20 shots for every goal. Once up a man, start firing from everywhere. But, this team relies upon speed and touches and technical ability to score - that's great and all and you'd think when up a man it would be easier but it isn't cause all they do is collapse. So, start shooting from way out just to get them moving. As a lot of us were saying last night....just shoot the effn ball.

I'm not sure where this idea we rely on speed of touches and technical ability comes from because that's exactly what we are struggling with to break down these bunkers.

Watch how many touches Endoh requires to put in a cross: it's too many. He should putting in more first time balls and the crosses he's sending in should be more accurate. He also needs to show a willingness to at least on occasion take on the defender. He turns back for the negative pass far too often. It's not good enough and its silly that we continue to work through him while having a numerical advantage.

It's a similar story inside. There needs to be more quality play that qucikly moves the ball. Those shots from distance are only going to crash into defenders because without quick movement / thinking there will be no space.

This team needs a re-think about how it approaches moving the ball.

[MightyDM]

My view:

Vanney should not have been hired when he was, nor Nelsen fired. Cost us the playoffs that season due to his naive emphasis on optimistic attack from start of games. Club gave up the first goal, usually in the first half, in an astonishing percentage of games. Dropped out of the playoffs. Not qualified to take over a team in a playoff spot late in a season, that role is reserved for someone with experience. #notvanney

Last year, he gave good press conferences, but little else. We continued to ship early goals - go back and look at the record, it's stunningly poor. The last two games v. Montreal were dreadful coaching. They made a change at halftime of the first and we never responded. There were choices on the roster, and none were taken. 5-0 over 135 minutes was the result. Some say the flaws were personnel but the lack of tactical response in those two games was totally on the coaching staff. #vanneyout

This year? A revelation. Consistent, organized defence. Good play and good ball movement. Development of young players like Hamilton and Chapman. Brilliant CCL run almost totally with youth - youth who were terrific, like Morgan. Good squad rotation. Fun to watch. First place. #wethevanney

criticisms: still needs to be the ruthless boss. Seba needed rest ( injury sure looks like an overuse injury) and having a baby was a perfect excuse not to send to Orlando. Needed to make that call. Substitutions sometimes puzzling ( ex not using Cooper on Saturday when his unpredictability would have been perfect), and team cannot win when a man up. But, so far well beyond expectations and it's a joy to watch the club play.

to me, he has shown significant improvement and we should close this thread in recognition that coaching simply isn't an issue for us. It would actually strengthen his hand in the locker room if we did.

#wethevanney

[Jack]

Great post, MightyDM.

[OgtheDim]

I'm not sure where this idea we rely on speed of touches and technical ability comes from because that's exactly what we are struggling with to break down these bunkers.
...

Watch the work being done in front of the box before the crosses happen.

And, the attack in general when not up a man is about quick passing up to the forwards who then do quick passing between themselves and the mids into the area to get a shot.

We are not a crossing the ball team.

[ag futbol]

Watch the work being done in front of the box before the crosses happen.

And, the attack in general when not up a man is about quick passing up to the forwards who then do quick passing between themselves and the mids into the area to get a shot.

We are not a crossing the ball team.
Agreed, we're not a crossing the ball team. But we're not moving the ball all that well either. We're about the counter attack and Seba - that's really the extent of it.

Rarely was there any intricate attempt to break through the wall of defenders. I don't think the passing should be lauded by any means.

[Oldtimer]

Great post, MightyDM.

Agreed, though there are still some areas that need improvement, but he continues to develop. Early on I saw hopeful signs that Vanney was good at learning from his mistakes.

BTW, I see no need to close this thread, if everyone is happy with Vanney, this thread will die by itself.

[marquis]

My 2c

Although I agree with the fact that Vanney improved significantly since last year, I still think his tactical prowess and ability to read a game and adjust are average at best.

His game plan is pretty much the same - try to get the ball somehow in Giovinco/Altidore's general area and then hope for they can figure something out. There is absolutely no midfield buildup, no combinations, no visible schemes. When the opposing team applies sustained high pressure, like Montreal did last week, we are pretty much neutralized - watch again the first half against MTL, we literally couldn't get past the midfield, most passing occurred in our half. Somebody said earlier that was disappointing that "we came out of the blocks like a wet squib". Well, I think we simply couldn't do anything because MTL dictated the game. That's all on Vanney, he was simply outclassed tactically.

His lack of tactical IQ becomes even more evident when we are up one or two men. We then have the whole midfield to our disposal but we are incapable of creating any opportunities because the players clearly don't know what do with the ball: there are no practiced combinations, no fast 1-2's or any type of direct play to try and penetrate the overcrowded defense. Again, no plan, no ability to read the game and adjust.

I strongly believe that had we hired a proven manager (from Europe, not MLS) 2 years ago, we would now be firmly in Shield and Cup contention. There is a strong imbalance between the quality of our roster and the coach's abilities. A 401 Corolla commuter would never get the most out of a Ferrari.

I am not advocating firing Vanney now and blowing up the house again. Vanney should finish the season, but Manning should start looking and make the change for next season. MLSE needs to open their wallets and lure a star coach from Europe. Why can't we be great?

[Areathrasher]

People need to wake up to the fact MLS isn't going to attract star coaches from Europe anytime soon. All you're gonna get from Europe are washouts like Coyle or Guillt or younger managers looking to make a name for themselves (Winter, Viera,Paunovic)

Some Italian tactician or whoever isn't going to come in for all the money in the world unless there is a massive transfer budget to go with it.

[marquis]

People need to wake up to the fact MLS isn't going to attract star coaches from Europe anytime soon. All you're gonna get from Europe are washouts like Coyle or Guillt or younger managers looking to make a name for themselves (Winter, Viera,Paunovic)

Some Italian tactician or whoever isn't going to come in for all the money in the world unless there is a massive transfer budget to go with it.

Everyone has his price. For $2-3 million/per season you could get a great manager from Europe. It's not gonna be Mourinho, but you don't need Mourinho...

[Oldtimer]

People need to wake up to the fact MLS isn't going to attract star coaches from Europe anytime soon. All you're gonna get from Europe are washouts like Coyle or Guillt or younger managers looking to make a name for themselves (Winter, Viera,Paunovic)

Some Italian tactician or whoever isn't going to come in for all the money in the world unless there is a massive transfer budget to go with it.


Everyone has his price. For $2-3 million/per season you could get a great manager from Europe. It's not gonna be Mourinho, but you don't need Mourinho...

Problem is most European coaches can't handle MLS squads which have multi-million dollar players mixed with guys earning $80,000 per year. You can't just buy another $3 million player to make your team better when you can have only 3 DPs. The foreign coaches who have worked out either played for some time in MLS as a player or spent some time in North America in some other capacity.

[Areathrasher]

Everyone has his price. For $2-3 million/per season you could get a great manager from Europe. It's not gonna be Mourinho, but you don't need Mourinho...

Look at the list of recent big name managers that have been linked with MLS sides...

Dunga - Orlando's Brazilian owner wanted him to replace Heath. Dunga wasn't interested in MLS. He knows he can score a gig at one of the big Brazilian clubs on the manager merry go round.
Capello - Linked with NYCFC after Kreis. Wanted 7m a year NYCFC baulked and went with Vieira.
Roberto Martinez - Atlanta wanted him according to Twellman, he wanted a gig in Europe and he took the Belgium gig instead.
Walter Mazzari - He shares an agent with Giovinco and he was pumping his tyres for a move to TFC during the great #Vanneyout wars of 2015. He ends up at Watford in the Prem.

You said proven managers for 2-3m a year. A proven manager will be able to pick up another gig in Europe on that sort of money with a decent transfer budget, control over their squad and not have to deal with MLS rule bullshit and coaching up a bunch of NCAA grads.

And if they have a price China will probably pay it before any MLS team ever will.

[jabbronies]

You said proven managers for 2-3m a year. A proven manager will be able to pick up another gig in Europe on that sort of money with a decent transfer budget, control over their squad and not have to deal with MLS rule bullshit and coaching up a bunch of NCAA grads.

And if they have a price China will probably pay it before any MLS team ever will.

This is it right here.

If you are a manager who has the ability to obtain any sort of success in Europe or South America, why would you come to MLS?

The only coaches coming to MLS are guys who can't find a job elsewhere and these guys are probably running out of date systems that no serious club would want or they are freshmen coaches looking to gain experience - Do we really want one of those coming over here?

[Detroit_TFC]

Many love the idea of Euro mgrs in MLS. However, the track record is bleak. I loved what Pauno did with the Serbian U-20s and I thought he would light it up in Chicago. Nope. He'll probably get to keep his job through the next preseason to see if he can put together something, but just as likely he gets canned in November.

[marquis]

Look at the list of recent big name managers that have been linked with MLS sides...

Dunga - Orlando's Brazilian owner wanted him to replace Heath. Dunga wasn't interested in MLS. He knows he can score a gig at one of the big Brazilian clubs on the manager merry go round.
Capello - Linked with NYCFC after Kreis. Wanted 7m a year NYCFC baulked and went with Vieira.
Roberto Martinez - Atlanta wanted him according to Twellman, he wanted a gig in Europe and he took the Belgium gig instead.
Walter Mazzari - He shares an agent with Giovinco and he was pumping his tyres for a move to TFC during the great #Vanneyout wars of 2015. He ends up at Watford in the Prem.

You said proven managers for 2-3m a year. A proven manager will be able to pick up another gig in Europe on that sort of money with a decent transfer budget, control over their squad and not have to deal with MLS rule bullshit and coaching up a bunch of NCAA grads.

And if they have a price China will probably pay it before any MLS team ever will.

I'm not saying it will be easy, but it wasn't easy to convince Defoe and Giovinco either. Bez & Manning better get to work and find somebody that's not only a good manager but also a good fit for MLS/TFC/salary disparity etc. Why are they there for then? Make it happen. Just finding reasons why it can't be done will not solve the problem.

[Areathrasher]

I'm not saying it will be easy, but it wasn't easy to convince Defoe and Giovinco either. Bez & Manning better get to work and find somebody that's not only a good manager but also a good fit for MLS/TFC/salary disparity etc. Why are they there for then? Make it happen. Just finding reasons why it can't be done will not solve the problem.

You've missed the point. MLS sides have tried and they've failed. The type of manager you want has taken a look at MLS gigs and said "thanks but no thanks"

Trying to recruit players and coaches are two different propositions.

[OgtheDim]

I'm not sure being unable to bring in an experienced European manager is a problem.

[marquis]

Many love the idea of Euro mgrs in MLS. However, the track record is bleak. I loved what Pauno did with the Serbian U-20s and I thought he would light it up in Chicago. Nope. He'll probably get to keep his job through the next preseason to see if he can put together something, but just as likely he gets canned in November.

Things are changing, there's a first for everything. We can't always refer to the past as a template. A few years ago nobody thought a Giovinco calibre player would come to MLS at 28, and yet he's here. I think it's a lot easier to convince a good coach to come to MLS than a good player.

[marquis]

I'm not sure being unable to bring in an experienced European manager is a problem.

No, that's not a problem in itself, the problem is our current coach inability to take this team to the next level.

[TFC Tifoso]

No, that's no a problem in itself, the problem is our current coach ability to take this team to the next level.

so far, this team under Vanney has passed every single previous team milestone.....how can you convincingly say today that he can't take us to the next level?
Inconclusive at worst, and actually quite possible he can, if you look at the team's (albeit short) trending under Vanney's time here......

[OgtheDim]

No, that's no a problem in itself, the problem is our current coach ability to take this team to the next level.

OK, but the well known MLS alternatives are:

Schmid? No thanks. He couldn't get the lanky Texan to play in the hole and to his strengths - how's he going to handle Giovinco and Bradley?
Petke? By all accounts as uninterested in things beyond the MLS team as Nelsen was. Dismissive of the Academy. i.e. He's MLS 2.0.
Backing Up a Truck and Getting Arena? - Not going to happen under Manning

In essence, whomever would replace Vanney would/will be equally unknown with specific weaknesses.


BTW, the Houston press have been chortling over the inability of Owen Coyle to do defence for Blackburn - so, no just because they are European doesn't mean they are even good enough in Europe.

[marquis]

so far, this team under Vanney has passed every single previous team milestone.....how can you convincingly say today that he can't take us to the next level?
Inconclusive at worst, and actually quite possible he can, if you look at the team's (albeit short) trending under Vanney's time here......

Vanney also benefited from having at his disposal the best TFC roster ever, possibly the best in MLS right now. I would bring up again the Corolla commuter driving a Ferrari analogy...

[marquis]

OK, but the well known MLS alternatives are:

Schmid? No thanks. He couldn't get the lanky Texan to play in the hole and to his strengths - how's he going to handle Giovinco and Bradley?
Petke? By all accounts as uninterested in things beyond the MLS team as Nelsen was. Dismissive of the Academy. i.e. He's MLS 2.0.
Backing Up a Truck and Getting Arena? - Not going to happen under Manning

In essence, whomever would replace Vanney would/will be equally unknown with specific weaknesses.


BTW, the Houston press have been chortling over the inability of Owen Coyle to do defence for Blackburn - so, no just because they are European doesn't mean they are even good enough in Europe.

I don't disagree with you, Vanney is not much worse/better than any of the current MLS coaches (except for Arena maybe). That's why I'm saying we should start looking beyond MLS. It's not gonna happen overnight, I agree the track record of getting experienced Euro coaches is not good, but that should be the Management's short/medium term project. With enough money in the pocket, they should be able to find somebody sooner or later. If that means keeping Vanney for a bit longer, so be it, but start the process already. Who knows, maybe it's already in the works...

[TFC Tifoso]

Vanney also benefited from having at his disposal the best TFC roster ever, possibly the best in MLS right now. I would bring up again the Corolla commuter driving a Ferrari analogy...

fair enough......which is why I say inconclusive at worst.
There is just no way you can say today that Vanney can't take us to the next level.
He is showing maturation a a manger, the team is top of the conference, and by all accounts the players like playing for him......we've never had all 3 of these at the same time at this point in the season.
This guy would already be considered a success anywhere else in MLS.....except Toronto lol......


I don't disagree with you, Vanney is not much worse/better than any of the current MLS coaches. That's why I'm saying we should start looking beyond MLS. It's not gonna happen overnight, I agree the track record of getting experienced Euro coaches is not good, but that should be the Management's short/medium term project. With enough money in the pocket, they should be able to find somebody sooner or later.

We've gone the Euro route before (Carver, Winter) with poor results.

it is doubtful that Manning will open up the pocket for a manger, as he traditionally does not do that even for players.
I have a feeling that if Manning does decide to let Vanney go in the near future, his replacement will be VERY underwhelming to many on here.....

[molenshtain]

Us and the Galaxy, at full strength, are best equipped to go deep in the playoffs this year. I'm confident we go far with Vanney at the helm. And not just this year, but for the foreseeable future with our ability to bring in top end DP's, an academy that's starting to regularly produce top end talent, a reasonably effective drafting strategy and some really smart inside the league deals. Despite some odd in game decisions, we're definitely on the up and up with Vanney.

I fought hard to defend Vanney even at the worst of times last year. Most long time posters know that. I got the criticisms leveled at him last year and to an extent a lot of those arguments were fair. I thought there were an absolute ton of mitigating factors that didn't led us see how good he really was last year, but I understood the anger and frustration. But I'd never ever imagine he'd grow so much in his second year with us. I guess it goes to show how much better a manager be when he get's the chance to get comfortable with his squad and trusts his players.

I'm speaking very genuinely when I say this, but when looking around the league and comparing Vanney's overall ability as a coach, a tactician and a curator of talent; he's one of the best five, if not best three coaches in the league. Pareja and Arena are the two clearly ahead of him. But other than that I don't see any other coach who can claim that they're overall clearly better than him. He's been, apart from some odd gaffes here and there (San Jose for example), pretty superb at his job this year. Playoffs matter the most obviously, so I'm waiting to see how we perform when we get there, but at the moment I'd be glad if we resigned him to a long term contract.

[Jack]

My 2c

Although I agree with the fact that Vanney improved significantly since last year, I still think his tactical prowess and ability to read a game and adjust are average at best.

His game plan is pretty much the same - try to get the ball somehow in Giovinco/Altidore's general area and then hope for they can figure something out. There is absolutely no midfield buildup, no combinations, no visible schemes. When the opposing team applies sustained high pressure, like Montreal did last week, we are pretty much neutralized - watch again the first half against MTL, we literally couldn't get past the midfield, most passing occurred in our half. Somebody said earlier that was disappointing that "we came out of the blocks like a wet squib". Well, I think we simply couldn't do anything because MTL dictated the game. That's all on Vanney, he was simply outclassed tactically.

His lack of tactical IQ becomes even more evident when we are up one or two men. We then have the whole midfield to our disposal but we are incapable of creating any opportunities because the players clearly don't know what do with the ball: there are no practiced combinations, no fast 1-2's or any type of direct play to try and penetrate the overcrowded defense. Again, no plan, no ability to read the game and adjust.

I strongly believe that had we hired a proven manager (from Europe, not MLS) 2 years ago, we would now be firmly in Shield and Cup contention. There is a strong imbalance between the quality of our roster and the coach's abilities. A 401 Corolla commuter would never get the most out of a Ferrari.

I am not advocating firing Vanney now and blowing up the house again. Vanney should finish the season, but Manning should start looking and make the change for next season. MLSE needs to open their wallets and lure a star coach from Europe. Why can't we be great?


Aren't we currently firmly in Shield and Cup contention?

[Super]

Vanney proved himself this year in my opinion. He didn't last year - so bringing him into this year as the head coach was a huge gamble. Huge! Looks like it paid off, though, so that's great. We could have also kept any of our former coaches into a year two and seen the same turn around I guess, but I'm not personally a fan on risking the house on newbies. It's always a gamble when you bet on someone with zero background. But we bet the house on Vanney, and turns out he DID fix our defense. Couldn't do it last year, but he's managed to do it this year. I also feel that we're better overall, and not so reliant on Giovinco as we were last year. Big test ahead as we play a few games without Gio - let's see what Vanney can produce in his absence.

[TFC Tifoso]

Vanney proved himself this year in my opinion. He didn't last year - so bringing him into this year as the head coach was a huge gamble. Huge! Looks like it paid off, though, so that's great. We could have also kept any of our former coaches into a year two and seen the same turn around I guess, but I'm not personally a fan on risking the house on newbies. It's always a gamble when you bet on someone with zero background. But we bet the house on Vanney, and turns out he DID fix our defense. Couldn't do it last year, but he's managed to do it this year. I also feel that we're better overall, and not so reliant on Giovinco as we were last year. Big test ahead as we play a few games without Gio - let's see what Vanney can produce in his absence.

I'm not sure about this.

For me what separates Vanney from the others we've had is the way he speaks about the game.....to me he's a tactical nerd, for lack of a better term, and its something that I haven't seen before with any other manager we've had (maybe Winter can compare from the tactical sense, but he was so out of touch with MLS/NA it wasn't even funny).

For all the notion that he is/was inexperienced, it may be true strictly from a top tier coaching persepective, but he's been around the game in NA for a long time......the playing experience helps too imo, even though it was a much different MLS then.....

[starter]

I have never had issues with Vanney, more with people who choose to hire him.
He seem to be doing OK, compared to what I had feared, but we are riding his learning curve. The defence has improved, and we are converting better transition into goals. But inability of the team to perform with possession is now became obvious, as we fail regularly against shorthanded teams.

For a mature organisation, it would totally made sense to bring in an experienced football manager ( not MLS ) to take advantage of all the talent we are signing, and give him a bean counter like Bez to navigate MLS rules.
To say there is no managers to be had is like arguing that there is no houses for rent in Tuscany (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EPkmLWOqwwA).

Cheers

[TFC Tifoso]

I have never had issues with Vanney, more with people who choose to hire him.
He seem to be doing OK, compared to what I had feared, but we are riding his learning curve. The defence has improved, and we are converting better transition into goals. But inability of the team to perform with possession is now became obvious, as we fail regularly against shorthanded teams.

For a mature organisation, it would totally made sense to bring in an experienced football manager ( not MLS ) to take advantage of all the talent we are signing, and give him a bean counter like Bez to navigate MLS rules.
To say there is no managers to be had is like arguing that there is no houses for rent in Tuscany.

Cheers

who would you have in mind?....

[marquis]

Aren't we currently firmly in Shield and Cup contention?

I'm definitely happy we're top of East right now, but the way I see things, that's not sustainable and I don't see us going very deep into playoffs.
I honestly hope I'm wrong...

[Canary10]

I'm definitely happy we're top of East right now, but the way I see things, that's not sustainable and I don't see us going very deep into playoffs.
I honestly hope I'm wrong...

I'm not sure how anyone can say we won't go deep in the playoffs. Portland was pretty mediocre last year and they won it all.

[ronzilla]

I'm definitely happy we're top of East right now, but the way I see things, that's not sustainable and I don't see us going very deep into playoffs.
I honestly hope I'm wrong...


You're not wrong. As long as vanney is behind the wheel, this team will make another early playoff exit.

[starter]

who would you have in mind?....

Well I am not paid to do the scouting, but a name I would respond to would be M. Laudrup. If somebody like him could drill this team to keep the ball as Swansea used to, that would made me happy.

[TMAN80]

I'm not sure where this idea we rely on speed of touches and technical ability comes from because that's exactly what we are struggling with to break down these bunkers.

Watch how many touches Endoh requires to put in a cross: it's too many. He should putting in more first time balls and the crosses he's sending in should be more accurate. He also needs to show a willingness to at least on occasion take on the defender. He turns back for the negative pass far too often. It's not good enough and its silly that we continue to work through him while having a numerical advantage.

It's a similar story inside. There needs to be more quality play that qucikly moves the ball. Those shots from distance are only going to crash into defenders because without quick movement / thinking there will be no space.

This team needs a re-think about how it approaches moving the ball.

Totally agree! There was absolutely no technical ability on display, so we reverted to crossing it poorly over and over again.

[Canary10]

Well I am not paid to do the scouting, but a name I would respond to would be M. Laudrup. If somebody like him could drill this team to keep the ball as Swansea used to, that would made me happy.

I read there were internal issues with him at Swans, which is really why he was fired.

[molenshtain]

Totally agree! There was absolutely no technical ability on display, so we reverted to crossing it poorly over and over again.

because they played four central midfielders and four centre backs and Osorio was awful at the tip of the diamond and couldn't create anything. We need an upgrade at LB, as good as Morrow is defensively. we need at least one of our fullbacks to provide some width and be a viable offensive threat. We need a proper Am playmaker, which I think Chapman could definitely grow into. We lost that game because of the combinations of players on the field. they forced Bradley to try and play through balls when the whole impact Defence was standing in the six yard box. We needed to shoot more to stretch them out. We didn't and that's our fault. But 11 v 11 we win that game 9 out of 10 times. They played to their strengths and our weaknesses. Doesn't mean that larger sample size that is or record this season should be discounted.

[Oldtimer]

Aren't we currently firmly in Shield and Cup contention?


I'm definitely happy we're top of East right now, but the way I see things, that's not sustainable and I don't see us going very deep into playoffs.
I honestly hope I'm wrong...

I prefer facts to be the basis of whether we should keep or get rid of Vanney, not feelings. If at the end of the season TFC is in a good spot, he deserves to keep that role.

[molenshtain]

You're not wrong. As long as vanney is behind the wheel, this team will make another early playoff exit.

Very little evidence to support that claim.

[Jack]

I'm definitely happy we're top of East right now, but the way I see things, that's not sustainable and I don't see us going very deep into playoffs.
I honestly hope I'm wrong...
But your assertion was that if we had a different manager than Vanney, we'd be pretty much where we are right now. When we have our first team firing on all cylinders as it has been recently, we lost two games in two months. Our record since July 1st is 7-3-2, so it would appear we are getting stronger as the season continues. Now, we'll see if the loss of Giovinco takes the wind out of our sails or if others step up, but I am hard-pressed to see the doom and gloom scenario you and Ronzilla are predicting.

If we continue to win at the pace we've been at all season and especially since July, how can we not be a solid contender? And how can none of the credit go to Vanney?

Or if you want to go by actual results, rather than speculation, then how can our current record and position in the table not be due, in part, to Vanney? It's absurd to pin all the negatives on him and all the positives in Giovinco.

[marquis]

I prefer facts to be the basis of whether we should keep or get rid of Vanney, not feelings. If at the end of the season TFC is in a good spot, he deserves to keep that role.

I did provide plenty of arguments already:


My 2c

Although I agree with the fact that Vanney improved significantly since last year, I still think his tactical prowess and ability to read a game and adjust are average at best.

His game plan is pretty much the same - try to get the ball somehow in Giovinco/Altidore's general area and then hope for they can figure something out. There is absolutely no midfield buildup, no combinations, no visible schemes. When the opposing team applies sustained high pressure, like Montreal did last week, we are pretty much neutralized - watch again the first half against MTL, we literally couldn't get past the midfield, most passing occurred in our half. Somebody said earlier that was disappointing that "we came out of the blocks like a wet squib". Well, I think we simply couldn't do anything because MTL dictated the game. That's all on Vanney, he was simply outclassed tactically.

His lack of tactical IQ becomes even more evident when we are up one or two men. We then have the whole midfield to our disposal but we are incapable of creating any opportunities because the players clearly don't know what do with the ball: there are no practiced combinations, no fast 1-2's or any type of direct play to try and penetrate the overcrowded defense. Again, no plan, no ability to read the game and adjust.

I strongly believe that had we hired a proven manager (from Europe, not MLS) 2 years ago, we would now be firmly in Shield and Cup contention. There is a strong imbalance between the quality of our roster and the coach's abilities. A 401 Corolla commuter would never get the most out of a Ferrari.

I am not advocating firing Vanney now and blowing up the house again. Vanney should finish the season, but Manning should start looking and make the change for next season. MLSE needs to open their wallets and lure a star coach from Europe. Why can't we be great?

[ronzilla]

Very little evidence to support that claim.

No. Actually there is a lot.

[marquis]

But your assertion was that if we had a different manager than Vanney, we'd be pretty much where we are right now. When we have our first team firing on all cylinders as it has been recently, we lost two games in two months. Our record since July 1st is 7-3-2, so it would appear we are getting stronger as the season continues. Now, we'll see if the loss of Giovinco takes the wind out of our sails or if others step up, but I am hard-pressed to see the doom and gloom scenario you and Ronzilla are predicting.

If we continue to win at the pace we've been at all season and especially since July, how can we not be a solid contender? And how can none of the credit go to Vanney?

Or if you want to go by actual results, rather than speculation, then how can our current record and position in the table not be due, in part, to Vanney? It's absurd to pin all the negatives on him and all the positives in Giovinco.

Yes, we should've been further ahead by now not only in the standings, but in the way we approach games and overall performance. I have yet to see a game when we truly dominate and dictate the play. I also don't have any confidence that we can perform in truly meaningful games.
Let's wait until we actually win something before giving credit to Vanney or anybody else. Let's start with top of East (at the end of the season) and a long run in the playoffs. That would be the minimum acceptable result for this team after 2 years of stability under the same coach.

[OgtheDim]

Yes, we should've been further ahead by now not only in the standings, but in the way we approach games and overall performance.

Do you watch other MLS games? Sure, LAG used to dominate games and NYRB has done a few times this season but 99% of the time, nobody dominates any game anymore, even when winning 6-2 or 5-1. We did one dominant game like that this season - in Montreal.

I go back to what I say to a lot of people:

When it comes to judging success in MLS, we gotta throw out all we know about how pyramid top 4 Leagues operate. In those leagues, the need is to dominate the scoreline 90% of the games and go for wins and points - even rope a dope Mourinho does this. Because of the travel, MLS doesn't operate like that.

[Jack]

Yes, we should've been further ahead by now not only in the standings, but in the way we approach games and overall performance. I have yet to see a game when we truly dominate and dictate the play. I also don't have any confidence that we can perform in truly meaningful games.
Let's wait until we actually win something before giving credit to Vanney or anybody else. Let's start with top of East (at the end of the season) and a long run in the playoffs.

The New England game? Columbus a few weeks back? DC? Those were pretty comprehensive wins and we looked dominant. We came through to win the Canadian Championship, so there's that. All signs this season point to a vast improvement over our previous season. And what's wrong with giving credit to success so far? No one is crowning him or anything, but the fact is, we are better than last season, we won the CC and we are in first place. Now we need to keep it going and I see no indications of why we wouldn't, as we have improved steadily over the course of Vanney's tenure.

I guess all we can do is return to his conversation in a couple of months.

edit: to Og's point, we're not going to completely dominate for 90 minutes, but we have had dominant games where we win convincingly.

[TFC Tifoso]

Well I am not paid to do the scouting, but a name I would respond to would be M. Laudrup. If somebody like him could drill this team to keep the ball as Swansea used to, that would made me happy.

ok fair enough....at least you threw out a name....

my problem in general with getting Euro managers to come to MLS is that I believe (though I definitely have no proof) that these managers have false expectations of an MLS player's ability and it quickly sours them on the experience. We've seen it with others and with our own team as well (Carver, Winter)
A coach can come in here with all the "know how" and "want to" in the world but if the players can't execute, it can't get done.
imo, managers/coaches who have spent most of their time in NA, understand the strengths and limitations of the players and league we have here and can adapt to that much better than a European manager.

[TFC Tifoso]

because they played four central midfielders and four centre backs and Osorio was awful at the tip of the diamond and couldn't create anything. We need an upgrade at LB, as good as Morrow is defensively. we need at least one of our fullbacks to provide some width and be a viable offensive threat. We need a proper Am playmaker, which I think Chapman could definitely grow into. We lost that game because of the combinations of players on the field. they forced Bradley to try and play through balls when the whole impact Defence was standing in the six yard box. We needed to shoot more to stretch them out. We didn't and that's our fault. But 11 v 11 we win that game 9 out of 10 times. They played to their strengths and our weaknesses. Doesn't mean that larger sample size that is or record this season should be discounted.

and to be fair to the dissenters (because I always like to play devil's advocate, even when its a point I agree with.....helps to see the other side of a debate :D), that has to fall on Vanney, and its an adjustment he needed to make on the fly.
To me this is where he needs the most work on...to be able to switch things up mid half when its not working.

But you could dissect every minute of every game to cherry pick moments that support any given stance.

Personally I look at the big picture, and where we are in the standings week to week.....and its pretty damn good this year, but more importantly, upward progression ever since Vanney has been manager.
Better team than before?.....sure, but the results are matching the quality of the team imo

MLS Wins - T2
East Wins - 1st
MLS Losses - 2nd least
MLS GF - 9th (could be a bit better there, but midfield injuries + Altidore are reason)
MLS GA - 3rd least (shipping goals has been our biggest problem for years and has been sorted)
MLS Pts - T-2nd most

Add to this what seems to be a happy locker room (another of TFC's traditional problems) and you can't argue with lots there imo.....

[marquis]

The New England game? Columbus a few weeks back? DC? Those were pretty comprehensive wins and we looked dominant. We came through to win the Canadian Championship, so there's that. All signs this season point to a vast improvement over our previous season. And what's wrong with giving credit to success so far? No one is crowning him or anything, but the fact is, we are better than last season, we won the CC and we are in first place. Now we need to keep it going and I see no indications of why we wouldn't, as we have improved steadily over the course of Vanney's tenure.

I guess all we can do is return to his conversation in a couple of months.

edit: to Og's point, we're not going to completely dominate for 90 minutes, but we have had dominant games where we win convincingly.

Yup, let's revisit in a few months. I wish this team will make us proud this season!

[Oldtimer]

I did provide plenty of arguments already:

OK let's deconstruct what you wrote:



Although I agree with the fact that Vanney improved significantly since last year, I still think his tactical prowess and ability to read a game and adjust are average at best.


That's an opinion, not a fact.




His game plan is pretty much the same - try to get the ball somehow in Giovinco/Altidore's general area and then hope for they can figure something out.


Actually, the evidence is strongly against this assertion. The team has scored a number of goals that didn't happen that way, and when asked the players said that they had done the play before in practice. That shows Vanney has been training the team tactically.



There is absolutely no midfield buildup, no combinations, no visible schemes.


I coached youth myself for many years, and I constantly see different combinations and schemes. The one's I've seen work well against some teams, but poorly against bunkering teams.


When the opposing team applies sustained high pressure, like Montreal did last week, we are pretty much neutralized - watch again the first half against MTL, we literally couldn't get past the midfield, most passing occurred in our half. Somebody said earlier that was disappointing that "we came out of the blocks like a wet squib". Well, I think we simply couldn't do anything because MTL dictated the game.



Actually Montreal bunkered, not apply "sustained high pressure." They did not dictate the game. Their goal was against the flow of play and was opportunistic. You are correct though that it is a fact that much of the possession occurred in TFC's end.




Well, I think we simply couldn't do anything because MTL dictated the game. That's all on Vanney, he was simply outclassed tactically.

His lack of tactical IQ becomes even more evident when we are up one or two men. We then have the whole midfield to our disposal but we are incapable of creating any opportunities because the players clearly don't know what do with the ball: there are no practiced combinations, no fast 1-2's or any type of direct play to try and penetrate the overcrowded defense. Again, no plan, no ability to read the game and adjust.


Actually, as per the post game commentary, the players didn't follow Vanney's game plan, so the fault was not with Vanney's tactics. Man-management, maybe, but I actually put it on the players because there is no other evidence that Vanney is having problems managing his players. In fact the players, including Bradley (who always speaks his mind because he can as USA's captain) say how much they respect him.



I strongly believe that had we hired a proven manager (from Europe, not MLS) 2 years ago, we would now be firmly in Shield and Cup contention. There is a strong imbalance between the quality of our roster and the coach's abilities. A 401 Corolla commuter would never get the most out of a Ferrari.



That again is an opinion, and one not based on fact. MLS history actually goes against what you say, very few foreign managers have done well in MLS. They can't handle mixing stars with college graduates, and somehow have Morgan passing to Giovinco and have it all work tactically. That's not how it works in Europe.




I am not advocating firing Vanney now and blowing up the house again. Vanney should finish the season, but Manning should start looking and make the change for next season. MLSE needs to open their wallets and lure a star coach from Europe. Why can't we be great?



Again an opinion, and one I question. If Vanney does well, you think that blowing up the team at the end of the season makes sense? What if he wins the Supporter's Shield? He should be fired? What if he wins the MLS Cup?

He should be evaluated at season end. If he has performed, he stays. I would take a good-performing proven MLS manager (which Vanney would be if he did well) over some Euro guy who may or may not work out in this league.

[starter]

ok fair enough....at least you threw out a name....

my problem in general with getting Euro managers to come to MLS is that I believe (though I definitely have no proof) that these managers have false expectations of an MLS player's ability and it quickly sours them on the experience. We've seen it with others and with our own team as well (Carver, Winter)
A coach can come in here with all the "know how" and "want to" in the world but if the players can't execute, it can't get done.
imo, managers/coaches who have spent most of their time in NA, understand the strengths and limitations of the players and league we have here and can adapt to that much better than a European manager.

If TFC were able to attract Jovinco level talent, I am sure they would be able to properly scout an experienced manager [ from elsewhere ] as well.
Cheers!

[ManUtd4ever]

I am cautiously optimistic that Vanney will make the necessary adjustments over the next few weeks in Seba's absence. The next few games will be a true test of the depth of our squad.

[TFC Tifoso]

If TFC were able to attract Jovinco level talent, I am sure they would be able to properly scout an experienced manager [ from elsewhere ] as well.
Cheers!

apples and oranges.....players can come to MLS for the financial opportunities that are simply unavailable to them anywhere else...and have a relatively short time to earn that money so they'll go to a place where it can be maximized.
Managers can do their thing for as long as they like in Europe (or at least as long as any team is willing to let them to do it).
Also, I'd guess that most big managers in Europe still have a poor opinion of MLS so regardless of wage, it would be seen as a step down to them.....

and cheers to you as well!

[OgtheDim]

If TFC were able to attract Jovinco level talent, I am sure they would be able to properly scout an experienced manager [ from elsewhere ] as well.
Cheers!

Could it be that they scouted an inexperienced but with a lot of potential manager already in Vanney, a guy who fits the MLS 3.0 mode?

Started in MLS back in 1996
Former MLS All Star
Former USMNT
Academy Experience including setting up a residency (RSL actually)
Experience running a soccer facility MLS teams chose to do preseasons
MLS Assistant Experience

Oh...and spot the colour guy on this from our 2009 season



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gf1WzJDT6Vo


Yeah, yeah...I know...not head coaching experience. But still...he's not exactly new to MLS.

[marquis]

Oldtimer, at this point we're running around in circles. I could take the time and respond to your counter-arguments, but it won't get us anywhere. I guess we can agree to disagree.
I respect your opinion (and everyone else's) and at the end of the day I hope you're right about Vanney and we will find success sooner rather later. Maybe this year.

Cheers!

[Oldtimer]

Oldtimer, at this point we're running around in circles. I could take the time and respond to your counter-arguments, but it won't get us anywhere. I guess we can agree to disagree.
I respect your opinion (and everyone else's) and at the end of the day I hope you're right about Vanney and we will find success sooner rather later. Maybe this year.

Cheers!

Fair enough! I think you have a lot of good points from time-to-time, so I appreciate your contributions here.

[molenshtain]

No. Actually there is a lot.

care to provide some reasons or evidence to support your claim?

[ronzilla]

The New England game? Columbus a few weeks back? DC? Those were pretty comprehensive wins and we looked dominant. We came through to win the Canadian Championship, so there's that. All signs this season point to a vast improvement over our previous season. And what's wrong with giving credit to success so far? No one is crowning him or anything, but the fact is, we are better than last season, we won the CC and we are in first place. Now we need to keep it going and I see no indications of why we wouldn't, as we have improved steadily over the course of Vanney's tenure.

I guess all we can do is return to his conversation in a couple of months.

edit: to Og's point, we're not going to completely dominate for 90 minutes, but we have had dominant games where we win convincingly.

Cherry picking games will never give you an acurate assesment.

The only reason this team is better this year is because of the addition of new players such as Moor, Irwin, Beita, and Johnson
and also Bono and Morrow have greatly improved.

If Vanney were to coach Chicago and bring the team to top of the table, then you could give full credit to the coach, although TFC have the best roster in the league, including MVP, therefore they are expected to win. Right now, 95% of credit should go to the team and I give Vanney very little credit, if any, because I feel he has somehow become a burden to the team.

Not being able to win one single game when having a man advantage, or two, against some teams with weak opponents in 6 attempts is sending smoke signals to top brass that a catastrophe is waiting to happen, and more than likely it will come in the playoffs.

Vanney also has a track record of making bizarre, perplexing substitutions that have cost us many games and this will contiue into the playoffs.

I can't see this team making a deep playoff run with Vanney.

[ronzilla]

Also, Vanney's poor coaching abilities were exposed when Seba went through that 8 game scoring drought with the team winning only 2 out of 8. Some people have also mentioned that those 2 wins came from atrocious officiating that was in favor of TFC.

Most people will argue that we were missing key players during this time, however other teams also have their fair share of injuries to deal with.

[molenshtain]

and to be fair to the dissenters (because I always like to play devil's advocate, even when its a point I agree with.....helps to see the other side of a debate :D), that has to fall on Vanney, and its an adjustment he needed to make on the fly.
To me this is where he needs the most work on...to be able to switch things up mid half when its not working.

But you could dissect every minute of every game to cherry pick moments that support any given stance.

Personally I look at the big picture, and where we are in the standings week to week.....and its pretty damn good this year, but more importantly, upward progression ever since Vanney has been manager.
Better team than before?.....sure, but the results are matching the quality of the team imo

MLS Wins - T2
East Wins - 1st
MLS Losses - 2nd least
MLS GF - 9th (could be a bit better there, but midfield injuries + Altidore are reason)
MLS GA - 3rd least (shipping goals has been our biggest problem for years and has been sorted)
MLS Pts - T-2nd most

Add to this what seems to be a happy locker room (another of TFC's traditional problems) and you can't argue with lots there imo.....

And that's a totally fair argument. Vanney's adjustments didn't work. Part of that was that his plans were thrown out when he had to sub in Endoh for Seba instead of presumably one of beitashour, Osorio or Delgado (Endoh was warmed up and ready to come in before Seba went down). That made the rest of his adjustments difficult. He set the game up for us to be up early and have MTL chase the game, that's why Ricketts was on the bench. Cheyrou was useful when he came on because he provided creativity and service most of the rest of the squad can't provide. even then I wasn't a very big fan of His subs.

But like you say, overall we're in a really good position. If everyone's healthy down the stretch I could definitely see us chasing the SS and the MLS cup. The east looks especially easy for us. Playing NYCFC in a home and away makes me a little nervous just because of there pitch - anything can happen there. Otherwise I think we match up very well and are significantly more talented than every other eastern conference team. My bet is LA comes out of the west. They're the only team I think can match up with us talent wise.

[starter]

Could it be that they scouted an inexperienced but with a lot of potential manager already in Vanney, a guy who fits the MLS 3.0 mode?

Started in MLS back in 1996
Former MLS All Star
Former USMNT
Academy Experience including setting up a residency (RSL actually)
Experience running a soccer facility MLS teams chose to do preseasons
MLS Assistant Experience

Oh...and spot the colour guy on this from our 2009 season



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gf1WzJDT6Vo


Yeah, yeah...I know...not head coaching experience. But still...he's not exactly new to MLS.

Vanney is certainly above the average NA player, and he is been around MLS, but at the same time Winter/Preki perhaps had more decent resume at the time.
At the time of hiring he had no head coaching experience to speak of, and should have fallen to the bottom of the hiring list. The list either was not too long ( FO scouting failure ), or they accidentally placed it upside down. :rolleyes:

[OgtheDim]

Cherry picking games will never give you an acurate assesment.

The only reason this team is better this year is because of the addition of new players such as Moor, Irwin, Beita, and Johnson
and also Bono and Morrow have greatly improved.
...

Yes because defences and offences just go out there and play...


BTW, most opinion I've seen is Morrow is not as good this season as last. He was arguably TFC's MVP in 2014, kept at his level in 2015 and has slightly regressed this season.

To Starter - I think they went with what I suggested - MLS 3.0 potential with a well rounded resume - build your own Kreis, so to speak. Again, head coaching experience is not ALWAYS the desired thing with MLS coaches.

[ensco]

Bez and Vanney will either stay or leave based on what happens over the next two months.

I think it's fair . They've had a reasonable amount of time, and all I care about is results.

It is life in the big city.

[Oldtimer]

The only reason this team is better this year is because of the addition of new players such as Moor, Irwin, Beita, and Johnson


The old "if we win it's the players, if we lose it's Vanney" unprovable argument. :D



and also Bono and Morrow have greatly improved.


and the coach has zero to do with players improving? I would say the coach deserves the credit when young players improve, that's been Vanney's strongest point and only someone incredibly biased would argue otherwise.





If Vanney were to coach Chicago and bring the team to top of the table, then you could give full credit to the coach

But if one player was changed in the lineup would you not give credit to that player and not Vanney? Admit it. g:D



Vanney also has a track record of making bizarre, perplexing substitutions that have cost us many games and this will contiue into the playoffs.


If you have been following the rest of the league closely, other coaches who have done well have had their subs questioned. Often we have no idea what is going on in the locker room.


Also, Vanney's poor coaching abilities were exposed when Seba went through that 8 game scoring drought with the team winning only 2 out of 8. Some people have also mentioned that those 2 wins came from atrocious officiating that was in favor of TFC.

Most people will argue that we were missing key players during this time, however other teams also have their fair share of injuries to deal with.

Which other team was missing 2 out of 3 DPs for a stretch like that? Name that team.


Also, Vanney's poor coaching abilities were exposed when Seba went through that 8 game scoring drought with the team winning only 2 out of 8. Some people have also mentioned that those 2 wins came from atrocious officiating that was in favor of TFC.

Most people will argue that we were missing key players during this time, however other teams also have their fair share of injuries to deal with.


Cherry picking games will never give you an acurate assesment.


Umm... I think you were cherry picking a short stretch of games there in an otherwise great season so far.

All strikers go through droughts. How is that on the coach?

I'm not saying Vanney's perfect and he had better find out a way to get his team to play better against bunkering teams, but he isn't a disaster either.

[molenshtain]

Cherry picking games will never give you an acurate assesment.

The only reason this team is better this year is because of the addition of new players such as Moor, Irwin, Beita, and Johnson
and also Bono and Morrow have greatly improved.

If Vanney were to coach Chicago and bring the team to top of the table, then you could give full credit to the coach, although TFC have the best roster in the league, including MVP, therefore they are expected to win. Right now, 95% of credit should go to the team and I give Vanney very little credit, if any, because I feel he has somehow become a burden to the team.

Not being able to win one single game when having a man advantage, or two, against some teams with weak opponents in 6 attempts is sending smoke signals to top brass that a catastrophe is waiting to happen, and more than likely it will come in the playoffs.

Vanney also has a track record of making bizarre, perplexing substitutions that have cost us many games and this will contiue into the playoffs.

I can't see this team making a deep playoff run with Vanney.


Our best player was in a seriously uncharacteristic slump through those eight games. He was almost detrimental in the way he kept looking off his teammates to shoot at absolutely every opportunity possible. But that stretch also allowed time for Chapman to grow into a solid AM, as well as Hamilton a viable back up for Altidore. throughout the season Vanney also been able to get solid performances from squad players such as Chapman, Hagglund, Bloom, Morgan, Lovitz, Endoh, Babouli (sort of), Bono, Williams, Hamilton and now Ricketts. He also built in a tactical versatility into our squad using a variety of different lineups like a 4-3-3, 4-2-3-1, 4-4-2, 4-1-2-1-2, 3-5-2 and 5-3-2 without any significant difference in playing style or playing level.

Yes, Our starting lineup is certainly more talented than last years. No doubt about that. But perhaps part of the problem last year was that Vanney didn't have the players capable, or a roster deep enough to perform the tasks he wanted them to. I think he's a lot more comfortable with the guys he has this year. He's also been able to greatly improve the play of a lot of the younger guys on the team who looked completely lost last year. Delgado, Chapman, Hamilton, Zavaleta or all demonstratobly better players this year then they were last year and I think a certain amount of credit has to go to Vanney for their improvement. Even Altidore is playing like a completely different player this year than he ever has in his career. His hold up play and Work rate are so, so much better this year than they were last year or even when he was in Europe. He never used to post up guys like he does now. That's 100% Vanney's coaching.

We also have one of the best, if not the best defensive unit's in the league (Colorado are solid at the back, but they don't send guys forward at all so it's not quite comparable). Bradley playing as a DM and having Johnson, Irwin, Moor and Beita play a big part in that for sure, but the organization on the field and the improvement of guys like Hagglund, Bloom and especially Zavaleta, who looked like dead men walking by the end of last season, is too a point down to Vanney's coaching. Vanney also had to deal with the fact that two of his starting back four last year went down immediately for the season, Perquis wasn't as good as Bez thought he was going to be, and we never really found a back four that worked well together. It was always going to be a shit show with how many injuries and inconsistencies we had at the back last season.

I agree we have a really talented roster, and when we're healthy we should be able to go toe-to-toe with anyone in the league. But Vanney's ability to be tactically flexible, vastly improve the youth and depth of the roster is a big reason we're first despite the fact that Altidore, Irwin, Bradley, Johnson, Giovinco have missed a 41 combined games. Missing Seba for the next three games will certainly be a test of the roster and Vanney's ability, but I'm not particularly worried because of the reasons I've mentioned above.

If you want to know what it's like when a bad coach has a really good team and just sends them out to do what they do, listen to sounders fans talk about the Schmidt era. He was a truly awful tactician and curator of talent. The coach you describe sounds a lot more like Schmidt than it does Vanney.

[Oldtimer]

Bez and Vanney will either stay or leave based on what happens over the next two months.

I think it's fair . They've had a reasonable amount of time, and all I care about is results.

It is life in the big city.

So true. It's a cruel results-driven business and they are on a short leash, not being Manning's picks.

[molenshtain]

Bez and Vanney will either stay or leave based on what happens over the next two months.

I think it's fair . They've had a reasonable amount of time, and all I care about is results.

It is life in the big city.


We agree, for once. As much as I've praised Vanney and Bez, we have to get to the conference finals and a top 2 finish in the east for them to justify keeping their jobs. We're such an obviously better team than anyone else in the east it's hard to find an excuse for not coming up with results.

I'm just worried about who we'd go after were we to look for someone new. I feel really confident in our squad and organizational set up right now. I'd be cautious to throw a wrench into something that overall is going pretty well. There's only 1-2 guys in MLS in both the coaching and GM positions I'd feel comfortable coming in and continuing the significant progress we've made the last two years.

[Areathrasher]

Part one of a 1on1 between Vanney and Molinaro. Have at er kids...

http://www.sportsnet.ca/soccer/toronto-fc-tfc-greg-vanney-major-league-soccer-mls/

[ensco]

We agree, for once. As much as I've praised Vanney and Bez, we have to get to the conference finals and a top 2 finish in the east for them to justify keeping their jobs. We're such an obviously better team than anyone else in the east it's hard to find an excuse for not coming up with results.

I'm just worried about who we'd go after were we to look for someone new. I feel really confident in our squad and organizational set up right now. I'd be cautious to throw a wrench into something that overall is going pretty well. There's only 1-2 guys in MLS in both the coaching and GM positions I'd feel comfortable coming in and continuing the significant progress we've made the last two years.

It'd be Manning himself in charge, plus the latest Doogie Howzer capologist, plus whomever he brings in to coach. It wouldn't be radical change, or the end of the world.

[molenshtain]

It'd be Manning himself in charge, plus the latest Doogie Howzer capologist, plus whomever he brings in to coach. It wouldn't be radical change, or the end of the world.

Yeah I get that. I just don't understand the thinking behind that from Manning's perspective. I find it hard to imagine he's unhappy with the results his employees are producing, regardless of if he himself hired them or not.

[TMAN80]

because they played four central midfielders and four centre backs and Osorio was awful at the tip of the diamond and couldn't create anything. We need an upgrade at LB, as good as Morrow is defensively. we need at least one of our fullbacks to provide some width and be a viable offensive threat. We need a proper Am playmaker, which I think Chapman could definitely grow into. We lost that game because of the combinations of players on the field. they forced Bradley to try and play through balls when the whole impact Defence was standing in the six yard box. We needed to shoot more to stretch them out. We didn't and that's our fault. But 11 v 11 we win that game 9 out of 10 times. They played to their strengths and our weaknesses. Doesn't mean that larger sample size that is or record this season should be discounted.


I agree with most of this too, but LB wasn't the biggest problem I didn't think. We needed creativity through skill, and being attack minded. That was my original point about Vanney, and his poor choice of subs, along with his inability to make the move earlier when the team is struggling against a team that is bunkering. I think Saturday would have been different had Cheyrou come on 15-20 mins earlier. Cooper would have provided a different look/shape as well. Rickets made no sense and was a waste for this situation(again too late in my opinion anyways).

I just don't know Vanney couldn't have known the we would be shut down, just like the other times in this situation. I'm happy overall, but I do feel that his choices sometimes are costing us some points. I feel like he gets brain freeze, and can't make a decision sometimes.

He can improve though, lets hope it's sooner rather than later.

[Auzzy]

to me, he has shown significant improvement and we should close this thread in recognition that coaching simply isn't an issue for us. It would actually strengthen his hand in the locker room if we did.

#wethevanney

Why should we close this thread? It's the "New Vanney evaluation thread," not the "fire Vanney" thread. I think we should always be evaluating the coach. I'm sure Vanney would do so himself.

[MightyDM]

Why should we close this thread? It's the "New Vanney evaluation thread," not the "fire Vanney" thread. I think we should always be evaluating the coach. I'm sure Vanney would do so himself.

I made that clear in my post. This reply is only to the last sentence.

[TFC Tifoso]

And that's a totally fair argument. Vanney's adjustments didn't work. Part of that was that his plans were thrown out when he had to sub in Endoh for Seba instead of presumably one of beitashour, Osorio or Delgado (Endoh was warmed up and ready to come in before Seba went down). That made the rest of his adjustments difficult. He set the game up for us to be up early and have MTL chase the game, that's why Ricketts was on the bench. Cheyrou was useful when he came on because he provided creativity and service most of the rest of the squad can't provide. even then I wasn't a very big fan of His subs.

But like you say, overall we're in a really good position. If everyone's healthy down the stretch I could definitely see us chasing the SS and the MLS cup. The east looks especially easy for us. Playing NYCFC in a home and away makes me a little nervous just because of there pitch - anything can happen there. Otherwise I think we match up very well and are significantly more talented than every other eastern conference team. My bet is LA comes out of the west. They're the only team I think can match up with us talent wise.

yeah that's a great assessment, and its not too hard to tell his hand was a bit forced with the subs....

I'm not too worried about winning the Shield this year.....I'm really interested to see how the team steps up not in Seba's absence.....to me it will say a lot about how Vanney prepares this team and how well he can execute a Plan B.
Looks like Seba will be out 3 games.....I'd be satisfied with taking points in 2 out of 3 games without him, providing at least one of those games is a win.

But I gotta laugh when the argument is made that TFC is only better because we have better players.
It is only logical that would be the case, and besides that, someone obviously needs to prepare these players during the week.
Even the best managers in the world would not be able to take a bottom feeder to the top year to year without bringing in better talent.
Once in a while like Leichester did.....sure. And, for the record I think they will be nowhere close to the top this year.
Anomalies happen, but too often it gets wrongly accepted as a trend.

[Oldtimer]

Part one of a 1on1 between Vanney and Molinaro. Have at er kids...

http://www.sportsnet.ca/soccer/toronto-fc-tfc-greg-vanney-major-league-soccer-mls/

Thanks, good find. I really liked this:


For me, it’s important that each guy on the team feels as though he’s adding something to our team. There are a lot of coaches who have their starting 11 and that’s it—they really work their 11 and everybody else is on the perimeter. For me, every guy has to be invested, and feel as though they play a role in our success as a team.

This perhaps is part of the secret why our team has such depth. After all, we've won games when 4 out of the starting 11 were in their first year at a first-team level. Vanney seems to have a real strong point in how he handles, motivates, and improves the young players.

[MightyDM]

Thanks, good find. I really liked this:



This perhaps is part of the secret why our team has such depth. After all, we've won games when 4 out of the starting 11 were in their first year at a first-team level. Vanney seems to have a real strong point in how he handles, motivates, and improves the young players.

Yes, he does. That's also his area of strength and expertise, and an important one in MLS given the lopsided roster. I do think he needs to be stronger in his handling of superstars (ie Seba should not have been allowed to travel to Orlando) but his tactics and selections have improved considerably this year (over, for example, the two losses to Montreal to end last year) so he has shown capacity to learn. Substitutions still are not a strength - Endoh and Ricketts, for example, don't open a bunkering team up in the way Cheyrou and possibly Cooper would.

His development of our young talent has been first rate and is a reason to keep him on.

[Auzzy]

I made that clear in my post. This reply is only to the last sentence.

I read your complete post. (Others may not want to read that much.) Nothing in your post makes clear why we should close this thread. So you evaluated him in your post, and feel he's improved significantly. So what? Others will want to evaluate him the same, or differently.

[TFC Tifoso]

Yes, he does. That's also his area of strength and expertise, and an important one in MLS given the lopsided roster. I do think he needs to be stronger in his handling of superstars (ie Seba should not have been allowed to travel to Orlando) but his tactics and selections have improved considerably this year (over, for example, the two losses to Montreal to end last year) so he has shown capacity to learn. Substitutions still are not a strength - Endoh and Ricketts, for example, don't open a bunkering team up in the way Cheyrou and possibly Cooper would.

His development of our young talent has been first rate and is a reason to keep him on.

as per one of Larson's articles last week, management was expecting to give Seba some time off during the road trip to spend some time with his newborn, had he approached management.....he never did.

And it doesn't seem like Seba is the type of guy who would be happy to sit as long as he is with the team.....

[burlington Red]

as per one of Larson's articles last week, management was expecting to give Seba some time off during the road trip to spend some time with his newborn, had he approached management.....he never did.

And it doesn't seem like Seba is the type of guy who would be happy to sit as long as he is with the team.....


He'll be sitting now for 4 weeks because of his eagerness to play. Management needs to be more authoritative in these types of scenarios. All players should want to play every minute regardless of their fitness, but sometimes you have to look at the bigger picture and hold them back. Management should not be waiting on him coming forward, they need to be proactive. He'll be out for 4 weeks, and probably take him a game or two to get back up to match fitness again.
We hear Vanney stressing the importance of having a squad in his interview, here was a perfect time to utilize it, a star player who's partner's just had a kid and he is suffering with a strain.
I know it's hard to say no to your main player but that's why you're the manager, you are there to make the tough decisions that not everyone is going to like.

[OgtheDim]

He'll be sitting now for 4 weeks because of his eagerness to play. .

A reminder that correlation does not imply causation. There is no way of proving that he is injured because he hasn't taken a break since the CBus game.

And, no, stands to reason isn't proof.

[Soccer Mum]

Seems like this thread is bi-polar based on the most recent result. Points dropped and it's Vanney out. A win and it's Vanney genius. Can we please stop being a fickle fan base?

[TFC Tifoso]

He'll be sitting now for 4 weeks because of his eagerness to play. Management needs to be more authoritative in these types of scenarios. All players should want to play every minute regardless of their fitness, but sometimes you have to look at the bigger picture and hold them back. Management should not be waiting on him coming forward, they need to be proactive. He'll be out for 4 weeks, and probably take him a game or two to get back up to match fitness again.
We hear Vanney stressing the importance of having a squad in his interview, here was a perfect time to utilize it, a star player who's partner's just had a kid and he is suffering with a strain.
I know it's hard to say no to your main player but that's why you're the manager, you are there to make the tough decisions that not everyone is going to like.

damned if you do....damned if you don't.....

had TFC sat him to give a break and lost in Orlando, how would that have gone over?......not well at all I'd say.....it would've been "Vanney doesn't know what he's doing", "we had a chance to take 3 points and go to 1st but didn't because our top player wasn't in", etc, etc.

as far as I've heard, it was only during (not before) the weekend game when he started feeling sore.....

[burlington Red]

A reminder that correlation does not imply causation. There is no way of proving that he is injured because he hasn't taken a break since the CBus game.

And, no, stands to reason isn't proof.

a reminder that strains can lead to injuries, so why take the chance in this game. They did and looked what happened, we lost the game and him for 4 weeks.
I'm playing devils advocate here, we all want to see Giovinco play every game, but sometimes not it's just not feasible. If it was a one off game such as a final etc sure I'd of played him but this game won't define our season esp considering coming off that great win in Orlando.
The fact management were thinking of resting him if he asked shows you were their mindset was. He's had a busy few weeks with stress etc related to having a new child, and then picking up a strain close to this game.
Hindsight always 20/20, and not all strains lead to injuries, but it certainly increases your chances. I had a bad feeling re this going into this game.
We have the squad to carry this for a while so it's not all doom and gloom, and hopefully Cooper steps up and fills that creative void

[OgtheDim]

a reminder that strains can lead to injuries, so why take the chance in this game. They did and looked what happened, we lost the game and him for 4 weeks.


He wasn't feeling the strain in Orlando. Vanney said Giovinco felt it in the first half against the Impact.

Its complete supposition to say not sitting him is what caused the injuries.

[burlington Red]

He wasn't feeling the strain in Orlando. Vanney said Giovinco felt it in the first half against the Impact.

Its complete supposition to say not sitting him is what caused the injuries.

You've mentioned cbus now you're mentioning Orlando. He had a strain leading up to Montreal game hence why it may have been advisable to rest him. Nothing to do with any other games.
Anyway it's done n we move on

[OgtheDim]

He had a strain leading up to Montreal game ..

That's not what we've been told. We have been told he felt the strain in the first half of the Montreal game and tried to play through it.

[Redcoe15]

Seba should not have been allowed to travel to Orlando


as per one of Larson's articles last week, management was expecting to give Seba some time off during the road trip to spend some time with his newborn, had he approached management.....he never did.

And it doesn't seem like Seba is the type of guy who would be happy to sit as long as he is with the team.....

In this country, if Seba was a hockey player, he would have been lionized to the max for putting his team's interests well ahead of his own.

[Areathrasher]

http://www.sportsnet.ca/soccer/greg-vanney-major-league-soccer-toronto-fc-tfc-sebastian-giovinco/

Part two of the 1on1. Some interesting stuff in there.

[MightyDM]

I read your complete post. (Others may not want to read that much.) Nothing in your post makes clear why we should close this thread. So you evaluated him in your post, and feel he's improved significantly. So what? Others will want to evaluate him the same, or differently.

OK. So don't close the thread. Just making the point that this thread, whether titled so or not, is really a death watch thread and he has moved beyond that.

[MightyDM]

A reminder that correlation does not imply causation. There is no way of proving that he is injured because he hasn't taken a break since the CBus game.

And, no, stands to reason isn't proof.

The injury he has is an overuse injury and there are numerous studies about athletes needing rest etc. It's demonstrably proven that lack of rest leads to injuries like this. Can we prove definitively that this injury was caused by the lack of rest and excess travel? Without access to Seba's medical records, perhaps not. But we do know the above facts ( see all the articles about injuries in the Premiership and the lack of injuries at Leicester last season for proof if you need it ) and we also know that uniquely on the team Seba had played nearly every minute since his return from ( a similar ) injury. There is also no evidence of any another reason for the injury. The only reasonable conclusion is overuse, unless there is any other potential explanation you might have. Was he running the 400 metre hurdles in training perhaps, or doing jumping squats with too heavy a weight? if there is evidence of something like that I'd be keen to hear that. If not, we'll just have to go with the clear and obvious conclusion.

[MightyDM]

In this country, if Seba was a hockey player, he would have been lionized to the max for putting his team's interests well ahead of his own.

I think his attitude is fantastic. But the coach should not have flown him to Orlando. He needed the rest.

[ensco]

http://www.sportsnet.ca/soccer/greg-vanney-major-league-soccer-toronto-fc-tfc-sebastian-giovinco/

Part two of the 1on1. Some interesting stuff in there.

The podcast that I believe Vanney is referring to is this one. I put it up a few weeks back. The "weak link" discussion about soccer is a tangent in the podcast, but the whole thing is worth listening to

http://revisionisthistory.com/episodes/06-my-little-hundred-million

The bit that gave me pause was the part about Vanney having to talk to his wife about what gets said about him on social media. That made me think. It's a reminder to remember that these are human beings with families. I have really only criticized the people who hired Vanney, but to his family, there is no difference, of course.

[Oldtimer]

http://www.sportsnet.ca/soccer/greg-vanney-major-league-soccer-toronto-fc-tfc-sebastian-giovinco/

Part two of the 1on1. Some interesting stuff in there.

A really good interview that shows his humanity.

[DinamoTFC]

Good interview and shows thst Vanney is intelligent and understands himself and his job. These are signs of a coach with great potential.

Hopefully this all comes to fruition because tfc needs and is dieing for any bit of success, and just as the article says, we have a horrible history that haunts and follows us every where we go until we get that success.

[TFC Tifoso]

Good interview and shows thst Vanney is intelligent and understands himself and his job. These are signs of a coach with great potential.

Hopefully this all comes to fruition because tfc needs and is dieing for any bit of success, and just as the article says, we have a horrible history that haunts and follows us every where we go until we get that success.

imo Vanney is the most intelligent and tactically competent manager we've ever had by miles (over the rest of them).....I've been saying it for a long time now....it shows in the results....

[Areathrasher]

The podcast that I believe Vanney is referring to is this one. I put it up a few weeks back. The "weak link" discussion about soccer is a tangent in the podcast, but the whole thing is worth listening to

http://revisionisthistory.com/episodes/06-my-little-hundred-million

The bit that gave me pause was the part about Vanney having to talk to his wife about what gets said about him on social media. That made me think. It's a reminder to remember that these are human beings with families. I have really only criticized the people who hired Vanney, but to his family, there is no difference, of course.

Wonder if he got the link from here ;)

[ensco]

Wonder if he got the link from here ;)

I wondered that too. But Malcolm Gladwell is a big deal, he could have gotten wind of it in lots of ways.

[Oldtimer]

Wonder if he got the link from here ;)

I'd be worried if he's reading this board. If anyone took their advice from here we'd be changing head coaches every 3 months, Altidore would have been shipped out for a bag of balls, and we would have changed strategies and formations every 2 games. :facepalm:

[ensco]

I'd be worried if he's reading this board. If anyone took their advice from here we'd be changing head coaches every 3 months, Altidore would have been shipped out for a bag of balls, and we would have changed strategies and formations every 2 games. :facepalm:

I suspect they mostly all read it. The comment by Vanney about answering his wife's questions re social media was illuminating.

If you are deeply interested in the team, how can you not come on here? Who is more interested than the players and management? Especially in a case like this, where almost all the real discussion is happening here, and not in mainstream media (no offence intended, Larson and Molinaro!)

Of course we'll never know. Managements always tell the players not to go on here, but I bet they themselves secretly read it. Players will tell everyone they don't read it, but then secretly read it. It's the way of the world.

Those with long memories will recall that a previous TFC President PMed one of the posters here to discuss/argue some things that were said on these boards.

[Oldtimer]

Those with long memories will recall that a previous TFC President PMed one of the posters here to discuss/argue some things that were said on these boards.

I remember that. Anselmi was quite the character.

[Jack]

Cherry picking games will never give you an acurate assesment.

The only reason this team is better this year is because of the addition of new players such as Moor, Irwin, Beita, and Johnson
and also Bono and Morrow have greatly improved.

If Vanney were to coach Chicago and bring the team to top of the table, then you could give full credit to the coach, although TFC have the best roster in the league, including MVP, therefore they are expected to win. Right now, 95% of credit should go to the team and I give Vanney very little credit, if any, because I feel he has somehow become a burden to the team.

Not being able to win one single game when having a man advantage, or two, against some teams with weak opponents in 6 attempts is sending smoke signals to top brass that a catastrophe is waiting to happen, and more than likely it will come in the playoffs.

Vanney also has a track record of making bizarre, perplexing substitutions that have cost us many games and this will contiue into the playoffs.

I can't see this team making a deep playoff run with Vanney.
I was specifically responding to the statement that said we hadn't dominated games this season. That requires cherry picking...

And I said he doesn't get all the credit, but he should get some.

[KurtLarSUN]

Cherry picking games will never give you an acurate assesment.

The only reason this team is better this year is because of the addition of new players such as Moor, Irwin, Beita, and Johnson
and also Bono and Morrow have greatly improved.

If Vanney were to coach Chicago and bring the team to top of the table, then you could give full credit to the coach, although TFC have the best roster in the league, including MVP, therefore they are expected to win. Right now, 95% of credit should go to the team and I give Vanney very little credit, if any, because I feel he has somehow become a burden to the team.

Not being able to win one single game when having a man advantage, or two, against some teams with weak opponents in 6 attempts is sending smoke signals to top brass that a catastrophe is waiting to happen, and more than likely it will come in the playoffs.

Vanney also has a track record of making bizarre, perplexing substitutions that have cost us many games and this will contiue into the playoffs.

I can't see this team making a deep playoff run with Vanney.

Remember that one time Vanney subbed on Ricketts against Real Salt Lake and Ricketts scored the game-winner? Was that perplexing?

Oh, and blaming the coach for dropping points to teams with a man advantage is really silly. I mean, perhaps Altidore should have scored against Houston instead of striking the post from in close. Perhaps Osorio should have scored from five metres out against Montreal instead of missing the target completely.

My Lord is this getting tiresome.

Players win games. Managers do work in advance to set the team up in a way they hope will be successful.

I can see this team making a deep playoff run. I can also see them losing in the first round.

[TFC Tifoso]

Remember that one time Vanney subbed on Ricketts against Real Salt Lake and Ricketts scored the game-winner? Was that perplexing?

Oh, and blaming the coach for dropping points to teams with a man advantage is really silly. I mean, perhaps Altidore should have scored against Houston instead of striking the post from in close. Perhaps Osorio should have scored from five metres out against Montreal instead of missing the target completely.

My Lord is this getting tiresome.

Players win games. Managers do work in advance to set the team up in a way they hope will be successful.

I can see this team making a deep playoff run. I can also see them losing in the first round.

pffft oh please Larson....you missed the first 8 or so years here.....now THAT was fun!! :D.....

[Oldtimer]

pffft oh please Larson....you missed the first 8 or so years here.....now THAT was fun!! :D.....

https://www.thestar.com/content/dam/thestar/sports/soccer/tfc/2010/09/14/toronto_fc_cleans_house_fires_mo_johnston_and_prek i/mojohnston.jpeg

[TFC Tifoso]

^^ hahahaha......and you can also replace above picture with........Carver......Preki......Winter.......Ma riner......Nelsen.......fun times :D......

[Carter]

^^ hahahaha......and you can also replace above picture with........Carver......Preki......Winter.......Ma riner......Nelsen.......fun times :D......
http://worldsoccertalk.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/john-carver.png

[Oldtimer]

^^ hahahaha......and you can also replace above picture with........Carver......Preki......Winter.......Ma riner......Nelsen.......fun times :D......

This works for all of them... :D

https://www.g-u.com/fileadmin//_migrated/pics/Karusselltueren_Standard__82_010_99.jpg

[TFC Tifoso]

lol lol.....good stuff guys :D....

my personal favourite is the screenshot that used to float around on the old NEE board of Preki slapping the sideline camera mid-game......classic......

[Richard]

^^ hahahaha......and you can also replace above picture with........Carver......Preki......Winter.......Ma riner......Nelsen.......fun times :D......

Nah, all you need is one.

http://assets1.sportsnet.ca/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/anselmi_tom640.jpg

[TFC Tifoso]

lol......that is true.....the "brains" behind the operation.....

[Yohan]

just be glad Vanney is smarter than Floro in terms of player selections... how the heck did Floro manage Real Madrid?

[Oldtimer]

just be glad Vanney is smarter than Floro in terms of player selections... how the heck did Floro manage Real Madrid?

It's easy to do selections when the entire team is world class. Much harder is dealing with a mixture of talent, which is the same problem foreign coaches have in MLS. It's not just purely tactics.

[TFC Tifoso]

It's easy to do selections when the entire team is world class. Much harder is dealing with a mixture of talent, which is the same problem foreign coaches have in MLS. It's not just purely tactics.

I dunno about that.....sometimes its not to easy to say "do I play Modric today or Kroos?" (not Floro's Real, I now but just using today's team as example), based on who would set up better in the team.....

but on the other hand, when you leave your long-time contributors like Will Johnson and up and top up and comer like possibly Osorio at home, in must win qualifiers, just to prove a point, when overall talent at the best case is stretched thin, you're just an idiot.

Please don't take this as an anti-CMT post, because I would likely cry like a baby at the sight and sound of seeing our team lined up arm and arm for the anthem at a WC game, but our manager is lost, and organization (CSA) even moreso.

How is the same Steven Hart who coached us now bringing T&T to the hex?

How can a multicultural country like Canada fail to field even a single player of Italian heritage......South American heritage?.....and for years its been this way....it blows my mind.
Not that it will definitely make the team better, but something has to change in the team set-up.

Don't mean to derail thread, but had to rant lol.....

[Pint]

I dunno about that.....sometimes its not to easy to say "do I play Modric today or Kroos?" (not Floro's Real, I now but just using today's team as example), based on who would set up better in the team.....

but on the other hand, when you leave your long-time contributors like Will Johnson and up and top up and comer like possibly Osorio at home, in must win qualifiers, just to prove a point, when overall talent at the best case is stretched thin, you're just an idiot.

Please don't take this as an anti-CMT post, because I would likely cry like a baby at the sight and sound of seeing our team lined up arm and arm for the anthem at a WC game, but our manager is lost, and organization (CSA) even moreso.

How is the same Steven Hart who coached us now bringing T&T to the hex?

How can a multicultural country like Canada fail to field even a single player of Italian heritage......South American heritage?.....and for years its been this way....it blows my mind.

Don't meant to derail thread, but had to rant lol.....

To the part in bold: we could have 1 or more of them if they weren't holding out to try and get on other national teams.

[TFC Tifoso]

To the part in bold: we could have 1 or more of them if they weren't holding out to try and get on other national teams.

I get that....at the same time, perhaps players wouldn't hold out if they felt the organization was working towards trying to achieve something....

If you dream of winning a World Cup as a player, there is not even a 1% chance of that happening as long as you play for Canada.....

[Areathrasher]

To the part in bold: we could have 1 or more of them if they weren't holding out to try and get on other national teams.

Or if Floro picked Osorio...

[Pint]

I get that....at the same time, perhaps players wouldn't hold out if they felt the organization was working towards trying to achieve something....

If you dream of winning a World Cup as a player, there is not even a 1% chance of that happening as long as you play for Canada.....

I agree Canada isn't winning a world cup in my life time but i the idea that the CSA isn't working towards achieving something I don't buy.

Maybe the achievement they are striving for doesn't interest certain players but i think it has more to do with those players always feeling like they have a backup plan should they not succeed in playing for Italy or another nation.

My hope is that between the current professional set ups, the Canadian league and LTPD model we will start to instill a mentality where Canada isn't just a choice but a 1st choice.

[Fort York Redcoat]

What are we talking here? Vanney for Canada?

[TFC Tifoso]

I agree Canada isn't winning a world cup in my life time but i the idea that the CSA isn't working towards achieving something I don't buy.

Maybe the achievement they are striving for doesn't interest certain players but i think it has more to do with those players always feeling like they have a backup plan should they not succeed in playing for Italy or another nation.

My hope is that between the current professional set ups, the Canadian league and LTPD model we will start to instill a mentality where Canada isn't just a choice but a 1st choice.

I'll say I have no knowledge of the inner working of the CSA, but its been 3 World Cup cycles now and I see no progress.....3 cycles where the team has not improved or progressed further than the previous cycle......

If they are striving for the achievement of making/winning a World Cup, I don't know how any player wouldn't be interested in that.

I've heard that for a long time the CSA has basically been an old-boys club from the top right down to the players we see on the field.
Now again, I have no proof of this, but if still true, that will need to change if this country ever wants to go somewhere.

[TFC Tifoso]

What are we talking here? Vanney for Canada?

LOL.....if it ends up working out that way....but I'd like him to stay with TFC a bit longer ;)

[ag futbol]

I agree Canada isn't winning a world cup in my life time but i the idea that the CSA isn't working towards achieving something I don't buy.

Maybe the achievement they are striving for doesn't interest certain players but i think it has more to do with those players always feeling like they have a backup plan should they not succeed in playing for Italy or another nation.

My hope is that between the current professional set ups, the Canadian league and LTPD model we will start to instill a mentality where Canada isn't just a choice but a 1st choice.
The huff and bluster is greater than it once was but the results remain unchanged. Improvements on the men's side are so terrifyingly incremental they are essentially meaningless. Remember this isn't just about how fast we change but how fast other nations in our region change as well. MLS is also serving to improve other countries (besides US and Canada) within the region.

What can we point to at this time that the CSA has achieved on the men's side to prove this is on the right track? Forget LTPD and all those other things - that's table steaks. Where are the results?

[Fort York Redcoat]

Has Vanney progressed as a coach?

[Fort York Redcoat]

Why not pop in here lads and have a look what others have said on the topic?

http://forums.redpatchboys.ca/showthread.php?39426-At-least-go-down-swinging

[Pint]

What are we talking here? Vanney for Canada?

Canada, you know the canadian discussion is going to bleed everywhere today lol just be thankful you are one of the smart ones without twitter

[Pint]

Has Vanney progressed as a coach?

Yes he has, we don't get to see anything other than the game day side of things but the players look much better prepared this season. It could be he has the personnel he finally needs execute the system he wants to play but from an eye test perspective it has been much better.

[TFC Tifoso]

The huff and bluster is greater than it once was but the results remain unchanged. Improvements on the men's side are so terrifyingly incremental they are essentially meaningless. Remember this isn't just about how fast we change but how fast other nations in our region change as well. MLS is also serving to improve other countries (besides US and Canada) within the region.

What can we point to at this time that the CSA has achieved on the men's side to prove this is on the right track? Forget LTPD and all those other things - that's table steaks. Where are the results?

this is it right in the bolded....there is no tangible evidence to my eyes that shows whatever changes being made are having any effect at all, positive or negative....

add to that the Osorio situation and how it impacts other players thinking of playing for Canada.....
when a players does what he did in the Gold Cup, you sit him down and say "listen, I know you're young, you want to play and I like the passion you have for showing emotion in getting taken off, but you DON'T show up the coach and you had better not do it again."
You don't just blacklist one of the country's up and coming talents for a whole qualifying cycle....that's suicide.....

And to the point of players choosing other countries, should say his brothers become NT calibre players, do you think they would give a second thought to Canada after seeing the way their brother was treated?


Has Vanney progressed as a coach?

I don't need to answer that again....I've said enough about that in this thread :D....

[TFC Tifoso]

Why not pop in here lads and have a look what others have said on the topic?

http://forums.redpatchboys.ca/showthread.php?39426-At-least-go-down-swinging

Ya we probably should.....just had to rant after seeing Yohan and Oldtimer's posts and the thread went on a bit of a tangent.....

[Richard]

I like how this thread is about Vanney, and yet this page starts off with a picture of MoJo and ends with a discussion about Floro and the national team. Haha

Never change RPB, its why I like this site. :)

[Initial B]

I've heard that for a long time the CSA has basically been an old-boys club from the top right down to the players we see on the field.
Now again, I have no proof of this, but if still true, that will need to change if this country ever wants to go somewhere.

That used to be true, but hopefully not so much anymore. About 5 years ago, the CSA went through a bitter governance fight to bring in better accountability with an independent Board of Directors. But the rot goes all the way to the provincial levels as well. The OSA has improved, but I think Alberta is still bad. At least there is a pathway for young players now from U6 all the way up to U23, but we're still 6 years away from seeing the first-fruits of the LTPD. I was watching my son's game the other day and the improvement in how the younger players read and play the game has improved by an order of magnitude over the past decade, a lot of it due to the improved coaching requirements. Canada will only go as far as our coaching can take us.

Here are some articles by de Vos about the struggle:

http://www.cbc.ca/sports-content/soccer/opinion/2011/11/change-nearly-here-for-csa.html
http://www2.tsn.ca/blogs/jason_de_vos/?id=432937

[TFC Tifoso]

That used to be true, but hopefully not so much anymore. About 5 years ago, the CSA went through a bitter governance fight to bring in better accountability with an independent Board of Directors. But the rot goes all the way to the provincial levels as well. The OSA has improved, but I think Alberta is still bad. At least there is a pathway for young players now from U6 all the way up to U23, but we're still 6 years away from seeing the first-fruits of the LTPD. I was watching my son's game the other day and the improvement in how the younger players read and play the game has improved by an order of magnitude over the past decade, a lot of it due to the improved coaching requirements. Canada will only go as far as our coaching can take us.

Here are some articles by de Vos about the struggle:

http://www.cbc.ca/sports-content/soccer/opinion/2011/11/change-nearly-here-for-csa.html
http://www2.tsn.ca/blogs/jason_de_vos/?id=432937

that's good to hear, but I think there needs to be a better job also done in identifying these players and getting them involved in the national set up at an early age.

Let me give you an example.....a friend of mine has spent the last 2 fall seasons in Spain with his son, as he's attracted interest from Barca and has trained with their youth teams.
But not a sniff from anyone in the CSA to even see what his plans are to represent Canada at any level......how does this happen??

[Initial B]

Let me give you an example.....a friend of mine has spent the last 2 fall seasons in Spain with his son, as he's attracted interest from Barca and has trained with their youth teams.
But not a sniff from anyone in the CSA to even see what his plans are to represent Canada at any level......how does this happen??
Considering their difficulty in keeping track of the domestic pool, I think the CSA lacks the resources to know who all is out there globally. Maybe the father should contact the CSA to get his son on their radar? idk

[TFC Tifoso]

Considering their difficulty in keeping track of the domestic pool, I think the CSA lacks the resources to know who all is out there globally. Maybe the father should contact the CSA to get his son on their radar? idk

But that is the problem right there.....how the CSA is not keeping tabs on these kids boggles the mind......how can the organization (ie. team) expect to improve if they don't even know what's happening in their own backyard??.....

[Ivy]

But that is the problem right there.....how the CSA is not keeping tabs on these kids boggles the mind......how can the organization (ie. team) expect to improve if they don't even know what's happening in their own backyard??.....
To their defense, a kid playing in Spain is hardly their backyard.

[TFC Tifoso]

To their defense, a kid playing in Spain is hardly their backyard.

fair enough.....point I'm trying to make that is there any communication between the academies and the CSA about these kids' progressions?

Its not like he was playing in the backyard then went overseas.....he's obviously been with academies in the GTA.
At some point there's gotta be some communication between to the 2 to say, "hey look, this kid we got is training with so and so, keep an eye on him."

[Initial B]

fair enough.....point I'm trying to make that is there any communication between the academies and the CSA about these kids' progressions?

Its not like he was playing in the backyard then went overseas.....he's obviously been with academies in the GTA.
At some point there's gotta be some communication between to the 2 to say, "hey look, this kid we got is training with so and so, keep an eye on him."
I don't think communication is one of the CSA's strong points. Hopefully with DeVos there now, thinks will improve a bit.

[Oldtimer]

Ya we probably should.....just had to rant after seeing Yohan and Oldtimer's posts and the thread went on a bit of a tangent.....

I kinda got off topic... not good for a mod eh? :nonod:


I like how this thread is about Vanney, and yet this page starts off with a picture of MoJo and ends with a discussion about Floro and the national team. Haha

Never change RPB, its why I like this site. :)

I think it will go back to Vanney once TFC starts playing again Saturday.

TFC wins, people will say Vanney is "showing signs of improving as a coach for winning without Giovinco."

TFC loses, the mobs and torches will come out demanding Vanney's sacking because he "relies too much on Giovinco."

TFC ties and there will be a low level dispute as to whether that is good on the road, or it is a failure due to "losing points."

[TFC Tifoso]

I don't think communication is one of the CSA's strong points. Hopefully with DeVos there now, thinks will improve a bit.

I have a very hard time believing that the communication between CSA and the major academies is so broken that this info is not even getting relayed.
You'd think that one of the basic functions would be that the CSA is monitoring top players from the main academies across the country.
And if that's not the case, I guess its no wonder that we can never progress.
But yeah, definitely hoping the DeVos hire will be a positive thing for the growth and progression of our young players.


I kinda got off topic... not good for a mod eh? :nonod:



I think it will go back to Vanney once TFC starts playing again Saturday.

TFC wins, people will say Vanney is "showing signs of improving as a coach for winning without Giovinco."

TFC loses, the mobs and torches will come out demanding Vanney's sacking because he "relies too much on Giovinco."

TFC ties and there will be a low level dispute as to whether that is good on the road, or it is a failure due to "losing points."

eh, it happens....imo its good to see some passionate discussion about our NT, but if you guys want to move it all to the Canada thread, its totally understandable....

lol...ya that's about right on with the Vanney talking points.....here's hoping we'll be discussing "Talking Point A" on Sunday morning with 3 fresh points in the bag!

[OgtheDim]

I just read Bruce Arthur's piece about responding to the Jays recent travails and something struck me. https://www.thestar.com/sports/bluejays/2016/09/08/its-the-torture-of-september-that-jays-fans-missed-all-those-years-arthur.html

Every season up until this one we've either been out of the playoffs by now (realistically if not in fact) or fighting for our lives scraping to make the points. This season, I'm not worried about making the playoffs. Now, where we will be is another matter but making the playoffs seems assured.

That's gotta count for something.

[Oldtimer]

Solid tactical decisions in the Chicago away game. I think we can finally put to rest the idea, too, that Vanney only looks good due to Giovinco.

[Auzzy]

Solid tactical decisions in the Chicago away game. I think we can finally put to rest the idea, too, that Vanney only looks good due to Giovinco.

Yup not bad. One quibble for me: first sub was a few minutes too late. I was pleading with my computer screen to give us a sub. Both Delgado & Ricketts were already struggling for a while due to injuries. Chicago was already in control of the game, and I felt Toronto needed a boost. Then Accam came on at 56'; Chicago predictably scored at 58'; Cooper came on for TFC at 63'. Accam was warming up for a while before coming on, and he's a well known player for Chicago. I think that Delgado or Ricketts should have come off, and Cooper or Hagglund come on, either before Accam or at the same time.

[Ben - D.O.W.]

TFC has 4 players on the 24 Under 24 shortlist: Chapman, Delgado, Endoh, and Hamilton. The list will start being revealed next week.

http://www.mlssoccer.com/post/2016/09/12/24-under-24-back-stay-tuned-mlssoccer-com-full-coverage

Vanney is not without his faults, but gotta give credit where it's due - he's getting the kids to play.

[Oldtimer]

So Manning feels he has the right people in place and Vanney is growing as a coach. He is not planning any changes.
http://m.torontosun.com/2016/09/16/a-chat-with-the-boss-of-toronto-fc?

Stability is an odd thing as a TFC supporter. However, we need to continue to hold the club responsible for results, and that means continuing to evaluate Vanney, Bez, and co.

[TFC Tifoso]

So Manning feels he has the right people in place and Vanney is growing as a coach. He is not planning any changes.
http://m.torontosun.com/2016/09/16/a-chat-with-the-boss-of-toronto-fc?

Stability is an odd thing as a TFC supporter. However, we need to continue to hold the club responsible for results, and that means continuing to evaluate Vanney, Bez, and co.

read that as well.....interesting, but not entirely surprising to read (ie. Manning admit) that Manning was on the fence originally about keeping Vanney and Bez, but that they proved to him through results that they were the right guys to have for now....

also incredible to read that barring a disaster, Vanney will be the first TFC coach ever to make it to 2 contract terms.....wow.....

[mistercorporate]

In the old days we forgave everything and the club was a shitshow. Now we're demanding assholes to the club leadership and we're getting results and the franchise is growing and improving. Keep their feet to the fire ;)

#VanneyOut
#BezOut
#Bring_Out_the_pitchforks
#MLSE_getusabloodychampionship

[Fort York Redcoat]

In the old days we forgave everything and the club was a shitshow. Now we're demanding assholes to the club leadership and we're getting results and the franchise is growing and improving. Keep their feet to the fire ;)

#VanneyOut
#BezOut
#Bring_Out_the_pitchforks
#MLSE_getusabloodychampionship

I appreciate the sentiment but the old days was just as full of, ahem, demanding support. We just had plenty of patient people who stuck around as well.

I'm enjoying the difference of an evaluation thread instead.

[Pookie]

Oh geez.

Imagine a sports team that makes decisions based solely based on the whims of a fan base. Not even the entire fan base. Just the most vocal.

hey everyone, don't tell the opponents but we intend to put up a 4-2-2 format tomorrow. Everyone cool with this? Or hey, like or dislike the idea of firing the coach? Don't tell him just in case it comes back "dislike". That would be awkward am I right?

[OgtheDim]

DeRo the second time around was pretty much a fan whim, although it was TL and Bez and Nelsen.

[Oldtimer]

Most of our coach firings were based on fan whim. That and Tom Anselmi's gut.

JDG was hired because CMNT fans wanted him.

Until Manning came in fans always had an oversized influence. That's not to say fans should not have any influence at all, they should.

[ensco]

Vanney and Bez are now thisclose to guaranteeing that they come back. Unless there is a total collapse, they will be retained.

The team is an elite team, isn't backing in, is getting points without Giovinco, playing entertaining football.

[Initial B]

Vanney and Bez are now thisclose to guaranteeing that they come back. Unless there is a total collapse, they will be retained.

The team is an elite team, isn't backing in, is getting points without Giovinco, playing entertaining football.

It just feels weird to feel so good about this team right now. I wouldn't have imagined this just 4 years ago. The day Payne was parachuted in was the best thing that ever happened to the club, as it was the beginning of the end for ABC.

[andyc]

Going to three at the back tonight was a brave move that really worked out. Think Vanney is maturing as a coach and is beginning to actively manage the games...

[notthesun]

Credit to Vanney for having the stones to make a drastic change to try to get back into the game. To be honest, I'm not sure our goals had so much to do with the formation change as much as it had to do with Altidore (and credit to Bradley for spotting his influence - Jozy was making things happen every time he got the ball, I was begging with my TV screen for the players to just keep feeding him whenever they could, and sure enough Bradley went looking for him and we got the tying goal). Maybe the two wide players stretched things out and gave us more space in the middle though...

I would like Vanney to re-think trying to force things with crosses when we're chasing a game though. Our strength is obviously down the middle, if anything we should be playing through the middle then hitting guys for late runs down the flanks, instead of spraying it wide and whipping in rather hopeless balls. It didn't work when 10-man Montreal was bunkering against us and the wide players didn't really do anything today either. Endoh and Lovitz just don't have the quality to consistently take on a man and put in a dangerous ball. I understand the idea, as New York dropped their press deeper we had to create more space, but I just don't think we have the personnel. Heck, if we're really gonna try it I'd move Cooper onto the wing and bring Cheyrou in the middle.

Anyways, this is just a particular game state concern. You can't argue with results and Vanney is getting them.

[barticusz]

Credit to Vanney for having the stones to make a drastic change to try to get back into the game. To be honest, I'm not sure our goals had so much to do with the formation change as much as it had to do with Altidore (and credit to Bradley for spotting his influence - Jozy was making things happen every time he got the ball, I was begging with my TV screen for the players to just keep feeding him whenever they could, and sure enough Bradley went looking for him and we got the tying goal). Maybe the two wide players stretched things out and gave us more space in the middle though...

I would like Vanney to re-think trying to force things with crosses when we're chasing a game though. Our strength is obviously down the middle, if anything we should be playing through the middle then hitting guys for late runs down the flanks, instead of spraying it wide and whipping in rather hopeless balls. It didn't work when 10-man Montreal was bunkering against us and the wide players didn't really do anything today either. Endoh and Lovitz just don't have the quality to consistently take on a man and put in a dangerous ball. I understand the idea, as New York dropped their press deeper we had to create more space, but I just don't think we have the personnel. Heck, if we're really gonna try it I'd move Cooper onto the wing and bring Cheyrou in the middle.

Anyways, this is just a particular game state concern. You can't argue with results and Vanney is getting them.


You know, I don't think Vanney is trying to force things with crosses. He knows his team is strongest going up the middle which is why he keeps forcing people down the wings to spread the defense out. It's working. He did it again today by having Lovitz and Endoh playing so far out wide. This allowed Bradley/Oso/Altidore to have just that extra bit of room in the middle to create. We may as well keep trying to swing some crosses in from out side but I think everyone is well aware that these will just be a bonus if they're ever on target. It keeps the other team guessing, and spread out which is the ultimate goal.

First half we were much more direct and up the middle but couldn't do too much. Hence the change in the second half to really force NYRB wider. Worked very very well.

[SirBobSaget]

You know, I don't think Vanney is trying to force things with crosses. He knows his team is strongest going up the middle which is why he keeps forcing people down the wings to spread the defense out. It's working. He did it again today by having Lovitz and Endoh playing so far out wide. This allowed Bradley/Oso/Altidore to have just that extra bit of room in the middle to create. We may as well keep trying to swing some crosses in from out side but I think everyone is well aware that these will just be a bonus if they're ever on target. It keeps the other team guessing, and spread out which is the ultimate goal.

First half we were much more direct and up the middle but couldn't do too much. Hence the change in the second half to really force NYRB wider. Worked very very well.

I think it was this exactly, Endoh and Lovitz were mere decoys. It wasnt like the SJ game with the team feeding Endoh over and over to deliver garbage crosses. The middle players would fake to the wings to open up space up the middle. Was actually clever.

[OgtheDim]

NYRB doesn't stop pressing, ever. They actually use a shot clock in practice. One way to beat that press is to use speed on the wings. Sooo...in comes our two fastest wide players. Worked.

[mistercorporate]

I think it was this exactly, Endoh and Lovitz were mere decoys. It wasnt like the SJ game with the team feeding Endoh over and over to deliver garbage crosses. The middle players would fake to the wings to open up space up the middle. Was actually clever.

When Endoh started crosses from the side was when i first got pissed off all match, now it makes much more sense, my footy IQ just went up a bit. Thanks.

[Oldtimer]

NYRB doesn't stop pressing, ever. They actually use a shot clock in practice. One way to beat that press is to use speed on the wings. Sooo...in comes our two fastest wide players. Worked.

So you are saying that Red Bull gave us wings. :lol:

It was a really smart move by Vanney. I like how he adjusts mid-game, something that a multitude of previous coaches did not do.

[paul-collins]

I would have thought a bit more of route 1 would have kept that NYRB back line honest. They were way up the pitch. It would have been a perfect role for Ricketts to be honest... too bad he wasn't available.

Jozy and Jordan were working hard to push that line back, but the first half they weren't getting the attention from the midfield. They were kind of invisible for stretches in the first half. NY's high press really congested the midfield, and we were hurrying the passes in trying to go through the middle.

as OtD noted, the way chosen to spread out the NY defence was to force them to widen, and that worked too. Suddenly Jozy's positioning was noticeable by the mids and they were able to get the ball to him.

A poor game for defending, especially in the first half, but a great game from a grit and "are we an elite team" perspective, with the comeback. I think 3 more minutes and it would have been a W.

[jabbronies]

For what seems like the first time in his tenure, Vanney making a mid-game change of tactic that actually worked.
The play was definitely centered through the middle of the park after that change.

I do think they could've used Endoh a bit more than they did, not to cross the ball in, but more to spread the opposition out even more than they did.
I think the players lost confidence in Endoh's ability to follow the script - he tried a couple of shockingly poor crosses and runs into dead-end areas - Bradley gave him a mouth full a couple times, I think that smartened him up after that.

[TMAN80]

One of the most frustrating things for me regarding Vanney has always been his use of subs, specifically the timing. He often has waited way too long to make a change, if at all. Was very pleased in yesterdays game that he put on Cooper early in the second half. The right choice of player I would say as well. The other two subs were not long after, and after reading a few of the previous posts, was a great tactical choice. I didn't initially pick up on the "decoy" aspect of it, but it's clear now.
Vanney +1

[trane]

So Manning feels he has the right people in place and Vanney is growing as a coach. He is not planning any changes.
http://m.torontosun.com/2016/09/16/a-chat-with-the-boss-of-toronto-fc?

Stability is an odd thing as a TFC supporter. However, we need to continue to hold the club responsible for results, and that means continuing to evaluate Vanney, Bez, and co.


Agreed. I found Sunday's game confusing in relation to Vanney. The three goals were all the kind of the defensive mistakes, that should not be often seen on a good team, and to have three of them in a game is concerning. BUT other then those mistakes, which again were big, and all lead to goals, the performance was great, we were the better team from the binning to the end. In some ways I can attribute all three to our Beitashour, his own goal ( which on its own is something that happens from time to time, and on the second and third, while he was not directly to blame, he had pushed way up to early, leaving him in no position to help.

However, part of it is coaching, I like a three man back line but the three players, need to play like CBs first, not like LB-CB-RB, because it leaves the CB in one on one situations to often. The two outside CBs can push out, but they cannot be too aggressive, and in that game they were.

[paul-collins]

However, part of it is coaching, I like a three man back line but the three players, need to play like CBs first, not like LB-CB-RB, because it leaves the CB in one on one situations to often. The two outside CBs can push out, but they cannot be too aggressive, and in that game they were.
They didn't go to the three man back line until all 3 goals against had been scored.

[Red4ever]

I was just glad NYRB didnt get a red card.

We'd have been fucked.

[Hamilton_Red]

Terrible coaching by Marsch...if he had done any preparation on TFC he would have subbed a player off at 3-1 and no replaced him.


I was just glad NYRB didnt get a red card.

We'd have been fucked.

[trane]

They didn't go to the three man back line until all 3 goals against had been scored.

We did not start with it, but I thought we were in the 3 man back line on the third goal.

[noimpactinmtl]

We did not start with it, but I thought we were in the 3 man back line on the third goal.

Beitashour was caught too high up the pitch and Zavaleta was left guarding BWP in one of nephews worst game of his career.

[Auzzy]

Beitashour was caught too high up the pitch and Zavaleta was left guarding BWP in one of nephews worst game of his career.

Also, Bradley could have helped, but screwed up badly. As the play developed, he was staring only at the ball at the side of the field & the NY players around the ball. Never once turned his head around to see how things were developing. When the ball went past him, he started jogging slowly. Only when he was facing our goal jogging did he realize there was a total lack of cover from the defense and the defensive midfield. When he started sprinting back, it was way too late.

[paul-collins]

We did not start with it, but I thought we were in the 3 man back line on the third goal.
Third goal was at 48'. First sub was 53'. The change occurred when Endoh came in for Zavaleta at 64'.

[CBTFC]

1:30pm the following afternoon and not a single post, negative or positive...I'll take that as a good sign ;)

[Auzzy]

I haven't heard time to post here yet, and I'm not sure if it's worth the bother.

[Red CB Toronto]

1:30pm the following afternoon and not a single post, negative or positive...I'll take that as a good sign ;)

The Reds are in a good place, this truely has been a season of stability. Greg is about to finish his second full season as head coach of the Reds. Also when you look at the roster, there have been only two in-season additions, Tosaint Ricketts and Armando Cooper as opposed to the revolving door of years gone by.

[Detroit_TFC]

I see conflicting things going on, so I find it difficult to draw conclusions. On one hand, the lack of fire initially in the last several games might indicate a lack of trust in the system but the 2nd half improvements might indicate effective man management by the coaching staff (or lots of hair dryer throwing, who can say?).

[molenshtain]

I see conflicting things going on, so I find it difficult to draw conclusions. On one hand, the lack of fire initially in the last several games might indicate a lack of trust in the system.

The lack of trust in a system that got us to first in the conference? I doubt that's what it is. The players have been very vocal about how much they think of Vanney, Especially the leaders on the team.

I've already said this, but our problem yesterday was three players who would have been very useful against Philly's tactics were out injured and we didn't have adequate replacements for them. Even with just Rickets and Chapman in the lineup yesterday it would have been a much different game.

[smtavare]

If we finish 3rd or 4th with early playoff exit, he has to go, personally I blame this home losing stretch on him

[ensco]

Vanney and Bez are now thisclose to guaranteeing that they come back. Unless there is a total collapse, they will be retained.

The team is an elite team, isn't backing in, is getting points without Giovinco, playing entertaining football.

Football is a funny game. I posted this after the NYRB game less than two weeks ago. Now, they don't look very much like an elite team, can't get points without Gio, and are not playing entertaining football.

Today, it's this.....................close.

[OgtheDim]

Funny but I have found our play in the last 2 games very entertaining - we have been moving the ball quicker up the field. There's only 1 guy on the field right now who can finish consistently. A lot of our chances are falling to Osorio and he can't score - its been his problem for years now and unless he fixes it in preseason in 2017, we will have to stop starting him. I don't blame Vanney for these lack of wins - if anything its Bez for not succeeding at getting us goal production out of the midfield (although Cooper might provide that).

[Initial B]

I found this was more on the players than on Vanney. He gave them a game plan that had them overpowering DCU, but the players couldn't finish.

[Oldtimer]

I found this was more on the players than on Vanney. He gave them a game plan that had them overpowering DCU, but the players couldn't finish.

Agreed. They pressed hard but the clinical finishing was missing.

[ensco]

Funny but I have found our play in the last 2 games very entertaining - we have been moving the ball quicker up the field. There's only 1 guy on the field right now who can finish consistently. A lot of our chances are falling to Osorio and he can't score - its been his problem for years now and unless he fixes it in preseason in 2017, we will have to stop starting him. I don't blame Vanney for these lack of wins - if anything its Bez for not succeeding at getting us goal production out of the midfield (although Cooper might provide that).

I only saw the last 20 minutes plus highlights last night, but I was there Wednesday. Wednesday's game was entertaining, but more for the connoisseur (ie the Bradley-Kaka battles).

We are making some nice plays and winning our share of the ball, but are just wasting possession after possession in the final third. Is it entertaining? Not really.

[OgtheDim]

I have a feeling we go with the 3-5-2 next season. The team seems to be stockpiling wingers/FB's right now. Both our wide mids last night can play FB.

[Detroit_TFC]

Funny but I have found our play in the last 2 games very entertaining - we have been moving the ball quicker up the field. There's only 1 guy on the field right now who can finish consistently. A lot of our chances are falling to Osorio and he can't score - its been his problem for years now and unless he fixes it in preseason in 2017, we will have to stop starting him. I don't blame Vanney for these lack of wins - if anything its Bez for not succeeding at getting us goal production out of the midfield (although Cooper might provide that).

The changes (both personnel change or position changes) in the offseason will be very interesting. Even with the current disappointments, there is a framework in place and Vanney/Bez should focus on the gaps. Not sure Osorio will keep his position.

[notthesun]

This is a league of stars. I've always said this, but it's becoming increasingly clear to me as the star players get better and more abundant. You can find examples of this every season; we are the latest one.

Giovinco goes 8 games without scoring, we only pick up a few points here and there. Giovinco goes down injured for over a month, and we struggle. Yet just before this stretch he was on fire and we grabbed 4 straight home wins.

The Sounders are dead in the water, they sign Lodeiro, and they look like a brand new team. Ditto for Montreal last season after signing Drogba. Vancouver has a pretty solid squad overall, but their DP striker and AM are anonymous all season, and they find themselves out of the playoff race. NYCFC sits in 2nd place despite a porous defense because Villa is carrying them on his shoulders.

Altidore has been fantastic, but it's rare he gets enough chances to win games on his own. It's why he could be on 20 goals right now and Giovinco would still be a better MVP candidate (also the reason BWP will not win MVP over Klejstan). At this stage in MLS every team needs a DP that can make things happen offensively by themselves. Those are the guys that get you points.

So the measure of a coach in this league in my eyes, by and large, is how well he can leverage his DPs, and how well he can get by without them. We've been definitively mediocre without Giovinco, which is frustrating as all hell, but I don't think very surprising. With him, we've been a top 3 team in the league. Besides his nurturing of young talent, Vanney doesn't seem to me to be anything special or awful. He's just shown himself to be good enough, I think. A good enough coach plus a relatively strong squad and the best creative DP in the league is a winning formula I would not mess with.

I have a feeling that come playoff time, with a healthy Giovinco, we'll be entering as a 1st place team in a 3rd place team disguise.

[mistercorporate]

All I care about right now is being a top 2 team in the East. The MLS Cup is so much more attainable that way.

[DinamoTFC]

All I care about right now is being a top 2 team in the East. The MLS Cup is so much more attainable that way.

100%.

[ensco]

I am ready to call it.

Bez stays, based on the acquisition of Moor and the performance of the two summer signings, Ricketts and Cooper. We have had nothing but summer washouts, until this year.

Vanney stays, based on results, and on figuring out a formation (the 3-5-2) that works for all 3 of Bradley, Gio and Altidore. It takes guts to sit Johnson in favour of Hagglund or Zavaleta, to make that formation work.

[TheGoodson]

Vanney outclassed Viera all game. From the lineup, to the substitution everything was spot on.

The man deserves his extension along with Bez as they have done a magnificent job with this team.

[Leedsoronto]

Agreed
He has done quite well really, maybe we should keep him.

[Canary10]

Vanney outclassed Viera all game. From the lineup, to the substitution everything was spot on.

The man deserves his extension along with Bez as they have done a magnificent job with this team.

Outclassed is a bit strong. New York was only 5-6 minutes away from doing exactly their gameplan. We were pretty close to having a very different conversation. I'm actually really impressed with Vieira's tactics and understanding of the league less than a year in. Not a lot of people gave him a chance. He's going places.

Not that Vanney wasn't equally good, or just a bit better.

[Detroit_TFC]

I am ready to call it.

Bez stays, based on the acquisition of Moor and the performance of the two summer signings, Ricketts and Cooper. We have had nothing but summer washouts, until this year.

Vanney stays, based on results, and on figuring out a formation (the 3-5-2) that works for all 3 of Bradley, Gio and Altidore. It takes guts to sit Johnson in favour of Hagglund or Zavaleta, to make that formation work.

Hard to overstate that. Both have contributed immediately, unlike previous summer acquisitions (not always the players fault but end result is the same), and have a great potential to do even more.

[Oldtimer]

Outclassed is a bit strong. New York was only 5-6 minutes away from doing exactly their gameplan. We were pretty close to having a very different conversation. I'm actually really impressed with Vieira's tactics and understanding of the league less than a year in. Not a lot of people gave him a chance. He's going places.

Not that Vanney wasn't equally good, or just a bit better.

Actually Viera was just copying Kreis in using fouls to slow TFC down, there was no genius involved. It also needed a garbage ref who missed a pk and a red card to be even as close as it did. He wouldn't look so smart if those calls had happened.

That's not to say Viera hasn't done well overall. I rate him equivalent to Vanney year 1, which actually is incredibly good for a foreign coach. He won't be staying though, this is just a training gig for joining the coaching staff at Man City.

[Abou Sky]

By about the 60th minute we were talking about how that was the best we have seen TFC play, they were on the same page and really playing well.

TFC won because we did that until the end of the game.

That is both coaching and talent.

Vanney has definitely proven me very, very wrong.

I don't think that I have been so happy to be wrong about something since I mistook eczema for an STD.

[TheGoodson]

Outclassed is a bit strong. New York was only 5-6 minutes away from doing exactly their gameplan. We were pretty close to having a very different conversation. I'm actually really impressed with Vieira's tactics and understanding of the league less than a year in. Not a lot of people gave him a chance. He's going places.

Not that Vanney wasn't equally good, or just a bit better.

That game was completely dominated by TFC... With a tad better luck finishing, a pk that should have been called, red card in the first half etc.. This game would have finished closer to 4 or 5 nil. Sure if you want to give Viera credit, but the negative tactics didn't work. Whether it was for 20, 50 or 80 minutes they lost. Vanney's speech at half time lit a fire under their ass as that second half was dominated by TFC,

Credit is due to Vanney he set this team up to succeed, as if they lost or played poorly it would have been all on his shoulder's

[MightyDM]

Vanney has really grown this year. The team played almost perfectly on Sunday - a huge performance from Bradley, but Vanney set them up to win, was brave in his substitutions, and didn't pull punches in his press conference. Have to give him complete credit for that, and what a change from the naïveté he showed when first appointed. Good for him and good for us. Thank God Almighty, stability at last.

[Canary10]

That game was completely dominated by TFC... With a tad better luck finishing, a pk that should have been called, red card in the first half etc.. This game would have finished closer to 4 or 5 nil. Sure if you want to give Viera credit, but the negative tactics didn't work. Whether it was for 20, 50 or 80 minutes they lost. Vanney's speech at half time lit a fire under their ass as that second half was dominated by TFC,

Credit is due to Vanney he set this team up to succeed, as if they lost or played poorly it would have been all on his shoulder's

Woulda been, coulda been isn't. We were up against it until the 84th minute. I think he had the right tactics coming in. They did the same thing when they last played us at BMO and they got the draw. That is nothing against Vanney, who obviously overcame them and won.

[Oldtimer]

Vanney has really grown this year. The team played almost perfectly on Sunday - a huge performance from Bradley, but Vanney set them up to win, was brave in his substitutions, and didn't pull punches in his press conference. Have to give him complete credit for that, and what a change from the naïveté he showed when first appointed. Good for him and good for us. Thank God Almighty, stability at last.

This. He wasn't what we wanted or needed when he was appointed, as he lacked experience. However by the time Manning took over he had learned enough to give him a run. Manning made the right decision to let him try. Now he has proven himself and has earned a well-deserved extension.

Those who were skeptical when he was appointed were totally correct, he lacked experience at the time (although Toronto was in tough to attract anyone more experienced after how many coaches we ran through). Those like myself who saw some potential after he had coached a while were also correct that he should be given a chance rather than change coaches once again (although TBH I would have gone for Kreis when he was available). Now though he has learned a lot, he is no longer inexperienced, and he is showing some really good decision-making and technical nuance. We are seeing results. There is no longer a reason to be so skeptical.

I think we're now in a position that our coach has really grown into someone we can all get behind. That doesn't mean that we shouldn't hold him accountable, but we can finally bid farewell to the endless coaching carousel.

[Oldtimer]

Woulda been, coulda been isn't. We were up against it until the 84th minute. I think he had the right tactics coming in. They did the same thing when they last played us at BMO and they got the draw. That is nothing against Vanney, who obviously overcame them and won.

His own team doesn't agree.

http://www.bigapplesoccer.com/columns/lewis.php?article_id=46354

[Canary10]

His own team doesn't agree.

http://www.bigapplesoccer.com/columns/lewis.php?article_id=46354

Well, like I said in the other thread, they were punished a lot this year for playing that way. They will play that way Sunday. I think they will get punished.

The one thing he did that was weird was the goalkeeping change.

[Oldtimer]

A great article on Vanney resurrecting the 3-5-2. Interesting for technical geeks like myself. http://www.mlssoccer.com/post/2016/11/02/armchair-analyst-3-5-2-back-kinda-heres-how-it-works-qa

[Redcoe15]

Might have arguably been Vanney's best coaching effort yet. Our side was going into a hostile environment where they've never won before, with David Villa not getting a suspension for his thug move last week, with disaster a possibility (after all, matches in New York have always been considered a catastrofuck in the making). And our side played the most solid, dominant game yet.

I was kinda meh when Vanney took over the coaching duties of this team a couple of years ago. But I think it's safe to say, he's grown into one of the league's best coaches.

[Oldtimer]

I don't think it can be denied that Vanney outcoached Vieira.

[Ossington Mental Youth]

They need to fire Vanney before it's too late, the team is underperforming

[OgtheDim]

Both Vierra and Marsch are out because they insisted at all times on playing a certain way.

Pragmatism is practised around the world by good managers. Vierra went half way in their first game but his insistence on moving it out of the back ultimately did them in both here and in New York. That they had a player revolt over pragmatism says a lot more about Claudio Reyna (their GM) then anything else. Marsch's team lives and dies on that high tempo press.


Lots of teams talk about an identity.

I'd rather my team have the identity of a chameleon.

If the 3-5-2 doesn't fit playing Montreal, Vanney won't play it just because it has worked. If he tries it and its not working, he'll change it. That's what the best managers in MLS do. Good enough for me.

[Leedsoronto]

MLS manager of the year ? Maybe !!!

[Jack]

Vanney has taken a lot of heat, but he has grown into the role and really figured out how to get the best out of this team.

Look at this. Eight "of the year" finalists knocked out by TFC so far.
2016 Major League Soccer Awards Finalists

Landon Donovan MLS Most Valuable Player Finalists (December 6)

Sacha Kljestan (http://mlssoccer.com/players/sacha-kljestan) (New York Red Bulls)
David Villa (http://mlssoccer.com/players/david-villa) (New York City FC)
Bradley Wright-Phillips (http://mlssoccer.com/players/bradley-wright-phillips) (New York Red Bulls)
Defender of the Year Finalists (November 11)

Matt Hedges (http://mlssoccer.com/players/matt-hedges) (FC Dallas)
Axel Sjoberg (http://mlssoccer.com/players/axel-sjoberg) (Colorado Rapids)
Jelle Van Damme (http://mlssoccer.com/players/jelle-van-damme) (LA Galaxy)
Allstate Goalkeeper of the Year Finalists (November 17)

Andre Blake (http://mlssoccer.com/players/andre-blake) (Philadelphia Union)
Tim Howard (http://mlssoccer.com/players/tim-howard) (Colorado Rapids)
Luis Robles (http://mlssoccer.com/players/luis-robles) (New York Red Bulls)
Newcomer of the Year Finalists (November 21)

Ola Kamara (http://mlssoccer.com/players/ola-kamara) (Columbus Crew SC)
Nicolas Lodeiro (http://mlssoccer.com/players/nicolas-lodeiro) (Seattle Sounders FC)
Jelle Van Damme (http://www.mlssoccer.com/players/jelle-van-damme) (LA Galaxy)
*For this award, “newcomer” is defined as a player with previous professional experience who made his MLS debut in 2016
AT&T Rookie of the Year Finalists (November 10)

Jack Harrison (http://mlssoccer.com/players/jack-harrison) (New York City FC)
Jordan Morris (http://mlssoccer.com/players/jordan-morris) (Seattle Sounders FC)
Keegan Rosenberry (http://mlssoccer.com/players/keegan-rosenberry) (Philadelphia Union)
*For this award, “rookie” is defined as a player without previous professional experience who made his MLS debut in 2016
Coach of the Year Finalists (November 29)

Pablo Mastroeni (Colorado Rapids)
Oscar Pareja (FC Dallas)
Patrick Vieira (New York City FC)
Comeback Player of the Year Finalists

Frank Lampard (http://mlssoccer.com/players/frank-lampard) (New York City FC)
Kevin Molino (http://mlssoccer.com/players/kevin-molino) (Orlando City SC)
Chris Pontius (http://mlssoccer.com/players/chris-pontius) (Philadelphia Union)
*Honors an MLS player who has overcome injuries and/or adversity in order to achieve success during the 2016 regular season
MLS WORKS Humanitarian of the Year, presented by Advocare, Finalists (November 3)

Matt Lampson (http://mlssoccer.com/players/matt-lampson) (Chicago Fire)
Luis Robles (http://www.mlssoccer.com/players/luis-robles) (New York Red Bulls)
Gyasi Zardes (http://mlssoccer.com/players/gyasi-zardes) (LA Galaxy)
MLS Fair Play Finalists – Individual (November 4)

Chad Marshall (http://mlssoccer.com/players/chad-marshall) (Seattle Sounders FC)
Keegan Rosenberry (http://www.mlssoccer.com/players/keegan-rosenberry) (Philadelphia Union)
Chris Tierney (http://mlssoccer.com/players/chris-tierney) (New England Revolution)
*Selected by MLS based on objective criteria such as fouls committed, cards received, games and minutes played, as well as subjective evaluation of sportsmanlike behavior.

[Leedsoronto]

Does MLS actually know Canada even exist. What a crock of shite

[ensco]

If you were a casual, you thought TFC would park the bus. There were several media articles last week talking about the fact that TFC needed to bunker yesterday.

There were a ton of people on here last week arguing that TFC need to keep pressing high, go for the knockout punch, almost no one dissented (that I saw).

There was a rare perfect alignment between Vanney and the TFC hard core fan base, both of whom wanted to pursue the contrarian move. To see it succeed like that is incredibly gratifying.

[Jack]

If you were a casual, you thought TFC would park the bus. There were several media articles last week talking about the fact that TFC needed to bunker yesterday.

There were a ton of people on here last week arguing that TFC need to keep pressing high, go for the knockout punch, almost no one dissented (that I saw).

There was a rare perfect alignment between Vanney and the TFC hard core fan base, both of whom wanted to pursue the contrarian move. To see it succeed like that is incredibly gratifying.
It was absolutely the right thing to do. NYCFC scored a lot of goals, but they gave up a ton, too. Our success has come from going after teams and we have the guns to do it. Vanney has shown a great improvement in his tactics and decision-making. It has taken him a while to get the measure of his team and to get them all pulling in the right direction, but it's quite something to see. Hell, even Osorio is hitting the net! The insertion of Cooper into the mix has been excellent and Ricketts is a great option off the bench. I am thoroughly enjoying this.

My only nightmare is this FIFA break. Two intense hex matches against two tough opponents right before the Montreal series make me very nervous for Altidore and Bradley.

[C.Ronaldo]

If you were a casual, you thought TFC would park the bus. There were several media articles last week talking about the fact that TFC needed to bunker yesterday.

There were a ton of people on here last week arguing that TFC need to keep pressing high, go for the knockout punch, almost no one dissented (that I saw).

There was a rare perfect alignment between Vanney and the TFC hard core fan base, both of whom wanted to pursue the contrarian move. To see it succeed like that is incredibly gratifying.

well put

i never felt more in-tune with our TFC. really felt like TFC vs Everybody

[TFC Tifoso]

It was absolutely the right thing to do. NYCFC scored a lot of goals, but they gave up a ton, too. Our success has come from going after teams and we have the guns to do it. Vanney has shown a great improvement in his tactics and decision-making. It has taken him a while to get the measure of his team and to get them all pulling in the right direction, but it's quite something to see. Hell, even Osorio is hitting the net! The insertion of Cooper into the mix has been excellent and Ricketts is a great option off the bench. I am thoroughly enjoying this.

My only nightmare is this FIFA break. Two intense hex matches against two tough opponents right before the Montreal series make me very nervous for Altidore and Bradley.

this is my only fear as well.....I'll be watching USA/Mexico on Friday night with no ties to either team, but with the same nervousness as watching TFC.....the good news is that should Bradley and Altidore make it through the 2 qualifiers ok they get plenty of rest before the 1st leg....

[Canary10]

Vieira definitely got outcoached. Can't argue with results. However, not sure how anyone argues against Vieira's tactics in the first game given how the second went. The little hissy fit team meeting their players went on for trying to play defensively and go for a draw sure worked didn't it? As I said above, they will have to play more open in the second game and try to score, and they will get punished if they do. They sure did get punished!

[OgtheDim]

Vierra had the right idea, but you don't play defensive and still insist on playing the ball out of the back. The two are not necessarily compatible. That and he needs both a keeper and 3 central defenders with the ball passing skills to pull that off.

[Canary10]

Vierra had the right idea, but you don't play defensive and still insist on playing the ball out of the back. The two are not necessarily compatible. That and he needs both a keeper and 3 central defenders with the ball passing skills to pull that off.

I don't think they are incompatible (possession is generally a good defensive tactic), but it definitely got them into trouble a lot, especially with our high press. He should have abandoned that.

[Lennon]

This thread is going to get interesting if we somehow lose to Montreal.

I'm not one to judge a coach on one game (or series) and I think that Vanney has earned himself another year. Having said that, being knocked out by our biggest rival again would be really hard to swallow.

[ensco]

This thread is going to get interesting if we somehow lose to Montreal.

I'm not one to judge a coach on one game (or series) and I think that Vanney has earned himself another year. Having said that, being knocked out by our biggest rival again would be really hard to swallow.

Not for me. Bez and Vanney have clearly met a suitably tough standard now.

[flatpicker]

Not for me. Bez and Vanney have clearly met a suitably tough standard now.

Yup. We have made the final 4, and looked great doing it.
Vanney has my full support heading into next season.

[Abou Sky]

Not for me. Bez and Vanney have clearly met a suitably tough standard now.

Yup, I am so glad that I was proven wrong.

Vanney scarf?

[Redcoe15]

Any doubts now?

[Oldtimer]

Vanney's shift in formation when Giovinco went out in the conference final tonight was brilliant and led to TFC being able to unbalance Montreal's defense, and led to the game-winning goal.

Vanney has gone from being an inexperienced coach with occasional odd and poor decisions, to being an average MLS coach, to being quite a good coach. All in a very short time.

[ensco]

Not sure about the formation change creating the goal. Montreal had that play defended. Beitashour and Cheyrou just beat them with perfection in the cross and finish.

The guys play for Vanney. That's the key for me. They love him.

I kind of like the results, too.

[Initial B]

I always thought we should give Vanney at least two years. I had my doubts at times, but he seems to have found another level. I'm willing to ride him as long as the players listen to him. If he can get an MLS cup under his belt, I think that would demand respect from players around the league wherever he coaches.

[shwade]

Vanney4life

[Leedsoronto]

He doing quite well now he settled in :@)

[ag futbol]

/ thread

[105]

He evaluated that eastern conference trophy for a long time last night.

[Red4ever]

He's pretty good... I guess...

[Red4ever]

Nobody has seen the books so nobody knows how much we are losing.

Losing $21M CAD annually seems high, but depending on the long-term stadium repayment structure, it is possible.

Things that need to happen for TFC to continue to pay for three of the highest priced DPs:

We need to average 25k - 28k per game.

Win the Canadian Championship and get into champions league.

We need a playoff run. IMO, Eastern Conference Finals are the minimum to justify the highest payroll in MLS for three straight years.

More people will watch playoff games on TV. TFC vs. IMFC had very respectable ratings and if we make a run, it could get even better.

Playoffs will also mean increased sponsorship, increased ticket sales in the following year, increased merchandise sales, etc.

If at least some of these things don't happen, the club will have to cut back on expenditures.

hahahaha

[Ossington Mental Youth]

#Vanneyout

[ensco]

I put this in the game thread but it belongs here:



Something that really has me shaking my head is that we played them 5 times, and even though we got those two late goals in Montreal, we never really broke them down in any game until the first goal last night, which opened the floodgates.

We exploded their back four, 5 goals on crosses in 65 minutes.

That August game where Montreal beat us when we were up a man, we all ripped Vanney for sticking with crosses that weren't working. He knew something we didn't, I tip my hat to him.

[ensco]

The timing of the Onalfo announcement in LA makes me wonder if the Galaxy waited to talk to Vanney first.

No way of knowing.

[Lennon]

Something that really has me shaking my head is that we played them 5 times, and even though we got those two late goals in Montreal, we never really broke them down in any game until the first goal last night, which opened the floodgates.

We exploded their back four, 5 goals on crosses in 65 minutes.



I didn't want to say this and rain on everyone's parade at the time, but I think we were extremely lucky vs. Montreal.

We scored 3 goals from set pieces. Those are really low percentage plays. We created very little from open play and Montreal seemed to be in control for most of the game. After Montreal scored their 2nd we couldn't get the ball back for 10+ minutes (when you'd expect us to be on the front foot pushing for a goal).

I thought we played better that 2nd half in Montreal.

[Soccer Mum]

It's a results-oriented game and right now Vanney is in the green. That's all.

[mistercorporate]

It's a results-oriented game and right now Vanney is in the green. That's all.

This. He's learning on the job but he's improved and we have a solid system now. We need stability to build on what we have, rinse and repeat.

[Soccer Mum]

No one knows the system better than Vanney. And that is why he alone can fix it.