New Vanney evaluation thread

[PopePouri]

Both coaches could have done more to get the best out of the roster they have. Especially Sigi. He set his team up tactically and the overall structure of his roster in a way that didn't work. That's on him.

In what way? They have no creativity through midfield, they lost Martins and they've been affected Dempsey's form/absences. Sigi can't control that.

[OgtheDim]

This is all like saying you can just throw a ball out there and that will be enough. I get the viewpoint but tactics do mean something.

E.g. Portland last year before they discovered Nagbe would make a decent AM.

[pawlukj]

I think hes a good coach, he's incredibly smart about the game, I think the players respect him, he's commanding, but likeable, if its not broke dont change it, and he will be remembered in my books whether hes here or not down the road

[PopePouri]

This is all like saying you can just throw a ball out there and that will be enough. I get the viewpoint but tactics do mean something.

E.g. Portland last year before they discovered Nagbe would make a decent AM.

It's not that. It's just that it's easy to overvalue a managers contribution to a result.

[Abou Sky]

Hey all, it's been a while.

My attitude towards Vanney was 'I don't think that he is the guy, but I would love to be proven wrong.'

I think that he has proven his detractors wrong.

Look at what he gets out of the reserve squad.

No manager in TFC history has been able to put up 5 games with 8 points with four key players missing and fielding 3-4 players that aren't even hitting our cap.

I'm pretty impressed.

Remember, six of our last eight games are home games.

We are going to finish well, possibly even get the bye.

Cheers

[trane]

I still feel the same. He is not getting enough out of this team. We have played very well at times, but we have unperformed as much as we have met or exceeded expectations. This is a team that should be doing better in this league.

I am not calling for this head, because he seems to be improving, what we need is a long stretch of consistent on the pitch form. The win bought him some time in my books, but lets talk after 3-5 games.

[jabbronies]

Remember, six of our last eight games are home games.

We are going to finish well, possibly even get the bye.



We have to finish with the bye. Anything less is failure. Anything less and we are not contenders and have not moved forward from last year.

[trane]

^ I agree. We came out really well, but then we got back to the same place we were last year. We need a really good run to get us over that hump.

[molenshtain]

^ I agree. We came out really well, but then we got back to the same place we were last year. We need a really good run to get us over that hump.

That might have to do with the fact that we've been missing several key starters for most of the last couple months. Vanney's done a decent job with what he has.

[trane]

^ Again he is doing a decent job when the team is in full strength, but he should be doing better when it is not, and probably better when it is. He has improved, but we could improve on him. Once again, if he had lost Saturday, I would be pushing to replace him, simply because we are almost at the point that had we kept of backsliding the season could have gone down the drain, but only if a coach with a proven track record was found. With the win he has bought himself some time, but it has to be followed up with several good performances and POINTS.

[ryan]

So when we play well it's all on the players but when we play badly it's all on Vanney? There's some middle ground there, surely.

Vanney doesn't give Gio his free kick skills.

[GhostKiller]

Vanney doesn't give Gio his free kick skills.

He also isn't the one who injured 4 keys players for the busiest time of the season.

[Mateo1985]

So when we play well it's all on the players but when we play badly it's all on Vanney? There's some middle ground there, surely.

This actually something that really pisses me off about Vanney. When we lose he's always blaming the players. It's always "Them" when we lose. If we win he always says "We" or "Us".

[Ultra & Proud]

This actually something that really pisses me off about Vanney. When we lose he's always blaming the players. It's always "Them" when we lose. If we win he always says "We" or "Us".
I never noticed this. If anything I think he is too easy on the players. Many times he should have called them out but didn't and always gives dull 'we'll regroup and get back to work' post loss speeches. That was always one of my complaints about him. He's too even keel and frankly boring. I questioned his ability to lead because he has the demeanor of a third grade teacher but he is doing wonders for our young guys and things aren't consistent but they're coming together slowly. Still not sold he's the guy to get us to the next level but at this point, he's fine.

[OgtheDim]

This actually something that really pisses me off about Vanney. When we lose he's always blaming the players. It's always "Them" when we lose. If we win he always says "We" or "Us".


He uses we or us meticulously for every situation. When asked about an individual struggling, he never ever throws a player under the bus.

I think he has other issues (too differential to what players want) but its not in his post match communications.

[jabbronies]

Look out - time to add gas to the fire:

SIGI SCHMID LEAVES SOUNDERS
http://www.mlssoccer.com/post/2016/07/26/seattle-sounders-and-head-coach-sigi-schmid-agree-mutually-part-ways

[CBTFC]

Dear god no...no Sigi. He's lost in the current MLS 3.0

We have 1 loss in the past 5 games. Steady as she goes as key players slowly return from injury.

[ag futbol]

Agreed. Not the direction we should be taking things.

He'll find another job for sure but I think we need to be more forward thinking.

[Oldtimer]

I would have taken Sigi a few years ago in a heartbeat. Not now.

[OgtheDim]

Either LAFC or Atlanta but I'm wondering if maybe Vancouver might have an opening at the end of the season.

[Gazza_55]

This actually something that really pisses me off about Vanney. When we lose he's always blaming the players. It's always "Them" when we lose. If we win he always says "We" or "Us".

WOW

Vanny never blames the players.

[TFC Tifoso]

This actually something that really pisses me off about Vanney. When we lose he's always blaming the players. It's always "Them" when we lose. If we win he always says "We" or "Us".

that's incorrect....he used "we" in discussing the Bono gaffe v SJ.....just as one example.....

[Mateo1985]

I may be blind or biased or something but next time I notice it again I'll let you guys know. I swear it notice it on somewhat regular basis

[mistercorporate]

I may be blind or biased or something but next time I notice it again I'll let you guys know. I swear it notice it on somewhat regular basis

He doesnt call out specific players but he does occasionally complain that the players in general were not aggressive enough or giving up too many loose balls, etc.

[Mateo1985]

I know right? However, I've never heard him say "oh this so and so couch just out played me" even if the tactical changes he made during the game had everyone shake their heads.

[jabbronies]

When Vanney is really pissed at the play - it may slip out and say "the guys" or "the team" but that's only been a couple times - and I even heard him say it after a win.
But he's usually right in saying it - there's a point when it is clearly on the players for the poor play on the pitch - he usually slips when it's beer league bad. rightfully so.

[Ultra & Proud]

Either LAFC or Atlanta but I'm wondering if maybe Vancouver might have an opening at the end of the season.

I was wondering if a return to the Crew is in the books.

[TFC Tifoso]

I may be blind or biased or something but next time I notice it again I'll let you guys know. I swear it notice it on somewhat regular basis

fair enough...

I find Vanney tries to be very diplomatic.

I mean, use the way Vanney talks in comparison to a guy like Carver, who for some reason gets deity status with some here.
Who can ever forget Carver talking about Cunningham "I don't know how he got to be top goalscorer in this league".
Now whether or not the comment was warranted at the time (you'll get a hard time to say that it wasn't warranted, even from me), THAT is throwing someone under the bus, and it won't go over well for a long period of time, as we seen with him here.

If saying "them" instead of "we" is throwing under the bus, I've gotta say either we've become a wee bit touchy in here, or looking for faults where there's none......

[PopePouri]

I know right? However, I've never heard him say "oh this so and so couch just out played me" even if the tactical changes he made during the game had everyone shake their heads.

If you're a specialist in your workforce, the last thing people want to hear is that you don't have some sort of solution to a problem.

[Initial B]

I know right? However, I've never heard him say "oh this so and so couch just out played me" even if the tactical changes he made during the game had everyone shake their heads.
I wouldn't expect to hear that either. If any coach was outplayed by a couch, he'd be fired on the spot. :P

[OgtheDim]

Well if it comes to outplayed, I'd put Vanney in the top 1/3 of MLS coaches who used to be players. He was a legit USMNT.

[Oldtimer]

I know right? However, I've never heard him say "oh this so and so couch just out played me" even if the tactical changes he made during the game had everyone shake their heads.

Name an MLS coach that says they were "outplayed." That just doesn't happen. This is just creating an impossible standard for Vanney so that you can declare him "no good."

It would be stupid to do that tactically, even if it were a true statement because you would lose the locker room. If I ever hear a coach say he was "outplayed," I would expect a resignation letter from him the next day.

[mistercorporate]

Name an MLS coach that says they were "outplayed." That just doesn't happen. This is just creating an impossible standard for Vanney so that you can declare him "no good."

It would be stupid to do that tactically, even if it were a true statement because you would lose the locker room. If I ever hear a coach say he was "outplayed," I would expect a resignation letter from him the next day.

Yeah, Vanney interviews good too, that day he replaced Neilsen he talked like a veteran and strong pro. His girly man side only showed up in later interviews. He doesnt seem the type to admit weak qualities, lots of corporate manouvering skills with this one.

[boozilla]

Yeah, Vanney interviews good too, that day he replaced Neilsen he talked like a veteran and strong pro. His girly man side only showed up in later interviews. He doesnt seem the type to admit weak qualities, lots of corporate manouvering skills with this one.
He is slick, albeit un-engaged, wooden and prone to weird substitutions. Not nearly as unlikable a "short-pants" Mariner, who in his defense had a worse lineup.

[Oldtimer]

He is slick, albeit un-engaged, wooden and prone to weird substitutions. Not nearly as unlikable a "short-pants" Mariner, who in his defense had a worse lineup.

Mariner had been the GM, so any problems with the lineup was his own fault. I give Short Pants no room for excuses, he had none.

[TFC Tifoso]

Mariner had been the GM, so any problems with the lineup was his own fault. I give Short Pants no room for excuses, he had none.

yup....and while it might be a bit of a stretch to some, for me, Professor No-pants was at least as damaging to the development of TFC as Mo.
At least while Mo was in charge, we were brand new so expectations were kinda low.

[Oldtimer]

So after three wins, things are looking up from that embarrassing loss. The team is better organized, and I am really pleased at the progress of our young players, for which I give Vanney primary credit.

I dunno what happened with that loss, it looked like a coaching and locker room breakdown (like we've had so many times before), but it's been turned around.

[Richard]

He's getting the best out of all these young players which bodes well for the future and TFC's plan to bring along players from the academy.

[KurtLarSUN]

What's the coach's record dumbasses, everyone has the right to their opinions.

I will not be like the other plastic hipster cheerleaders, that's my opinion and I am entitled to one.

You can disagree but don't tell me to fuck off douchebag

The stats are there to back my opinions

Vanney is in his second FULL season.
He's the only reason guys like Zavaleta, Williams, Delgado (all tossed aside by other clubs) and Endoh are in Toronto.
From my view, the locker room is more settled than ever. He has also managed to keep Sebastian happy. He's an excellent man manager in that way.
If you look at the acquisitions under Vanney/Bez, most have been good.
Irwin
Moor
Beitashour
Zavaleta
Delgado
Endoh
Chapman
Johnson
Altidore
Giovinco
Bradley ...

The only big errors have been Gomez, Perquis and Kantari.

Vanney has TFC in second place in the East with a game in hand and a whole bunch of home games left.

If anyone wants to say, 'Hey, let's wait and see with Vanney.' OK.

But those calling him a bad coach are very misguided. It's strange.

[KurtLarSUN]

He's getting the best out of all these young players which bodes well for the future and TFC's plan to bring along players from the academy.

For those still complaining about Vanney, most of them would have laughed six months ago if someone told them Bono, Williams, Endoh, Delgado, Chapman and Hamilton were going to start and lead TFC to three consecutive home wins mid-season.

[OgtheDim]

Before we get ahead of ourselves here...all MLS teams go on 3-4 win runs. The difference between the also rans and the playoff teams is how many wins and ties come between the inevitable losses. The NER game will be tough. Then there are three road games including Philly who are tooling up for a playoff run and Orlando who are rejigging their current assets under an experienced coach. It is VERY possible that TFC gets 0 points in the next 4 games. IF that or something close to that happens, this thread will be full once again. That's the nature of this discussion - when we win, he's good enough. When we lose, he's awful.

[Detroit_TFC]

Funny, three weeks ago I was looking forward to this road trip figuring Orlando was a mess and Philly was a toss up. Now, not so much. Life comes at you fast.

[Ivy]

Funny, three weeks ago I was looking forward to this road trip figuring Orlando was a mess and Philly was a toss up. Now, not so much. Life comes at you fast.

Sorry but Philly is crap who's luck ran out. They have nothing or nobody special on their roster.
TFC will get at LEAST 6 points out of the next 4 games. Book it.

[OgtheDim]

Bedoya in, Edu back and we are told going back to his DMC spot, Davies in. Yes they will be bedding them in and they havn't addressed their biggest need (CD) but Philly is a good MLS team.

Are we better? Yes. But I'm suggesting that game will be tough and our expectations for points and thus for Vanney should be tempered.

[Ultra & Proud]

Sorry but Philly is crap who's luck ran out. They have nothing or nobody special on their roster.
TFC will get at LEAST 6 points out of the next 4 games. Book it.

They got Bedoya now but we'll be getting them before he has a chance to adjust and be 100% match fit.

[Yohan]

Philly has some really good players. I rate Barnetta, Ilsinho, Blake and Rosenberry highly.

[Ivy]

They are no more special than Cbus. They too have special players.

[Canary10]

Philly has some really good players. I rate Barnetta, Ilsinho, Blake and Rosenberry highly.

I'm a big fan of Fabian Herbers. Alberg has been pretty decent.

[Detroit_TFC]

They got Bedoya now but we'll be getting them before he has a chance to adjust and be 100% match fit.

Yes, agreed. And we'll be able to compare, because we play them again Sept. 24.

[Phil]

Every game has the potential to be lost, parody is the hallmark of the MLS. It has been good to actually get some big results off of lower placed teams, and getting the full points out of RSL was great. If we didn't get the v-cup against Vancouver Vanney would IMO be on much thinner ice with Manning. I know for a fact Manning was very critical of all things Vanney in early June. The team has turned some things around, lets hope the progress continues.

[Kaz]

Every game has the potential to be lost, parody is the hallmark of the MLS. It has been good to actually get some big results off of lower placed teams, and getting the full points out of RSL was great. If we didn't get the v-cup against Vancouver Vanney would IMO be on much thinner ice with Manning. I know for a fact Manning was very critical of all things Vanney in early June. The team has turned some things around, lets hope the progress continues.

There had to be some major changes. If Manning is responsible for us starting to play as a team and drop the give it to Gio and bunker down into Vanney ball if we are up by a single goal for the whole game.. my opinion of Manning has gone way up. That seems to be the change. We are attacking more we are pushing harder. These are good things. I still see Vanney ball but no where near as often.


Though last night no one seemed to be connecting really well.

[Canary10]

Every game has the potential to be lost, parody is the hallmark of the MLS. It has been good to actually get some big results off of lower placed teams, and getting the full points out of RSL was great. If we didn't get the v-cup against Vancouver Vanney would IMO be on much thinner ice with Manning. I know for a fact Manning was very critical of all things Vanney in early June. The team has turned some things around, lets hope the progress continues.

This made be laugh. You meant parity, but somehow parody may fit better. At least with the refereeing.

[Phil]

Freudian slip :D

But yeah, Manning had some serous issues with tactics and how we are not playing 'our' game especially at home. To Vanneys credit he listened and adjusted. Its seems to be going well. Lets keep the finger crossed.

[Areathrasher]

Didn't think Manning would get involved on the football side like that. Thought he was mostly a business dude.

Interesting stuff.

[Phil]

Didn't think Manning would get involved on the football side like that. Thought he was mostly a business dude.

Interesting stuff.

The CEO is the business guy. Manning is surprisingly involved in a lot of team stuff. It does appear that its still the 'collective' attitude though.

[OgtheDim]

I'm curious as to what the collective defines as "our game".

I'm still not used to the whole "focusing on how we play the game" stuff around here. :)

[Areathrasher]

The CEO is the business guy. Manning is surprisingly involved in a lot of team stuff. It does appear that its still the 'collective' attitude though.

His resume from RSL suggested he was a business guy. I mean, he's won the exec of the year award twice for boosting season ticket and sponsorship sales.

[Phil]

His resume from RSL suggested he was a business guy. I mean, he's won the exec of the year award twice for boosting season ticket and sponsorship sales.

Fair point, I guess I did find it a bit surprising too now that I think about it.

[Areathrasher]

Fair point, I guess I did find it a bit surprising too now that I think about it.

Maybe he had more of an influence on the playing side at RSL than what we were all led to believe?

[Kaz]

Maybe he had more of an influence on the playing side at RSL than what we were all led to believe?


Or he realized that Vanney isn't capable of making sound strategies on his own and is forcing him down the path a little. Vanney seems to be the kind of guy that would be a great assistant and youth coach.. but He was told in the off season not to let in too many goals and rather than creating a sound strategy with an offensively capable team he create Vanney Ball the give Gio the Ball and no one else and once we get a gaol park the bus and dare teams to take points strategy that I have been complaining about for most of the season. We finally started seeing at the end of July the team playing together and building up play forcing defenders to looks at the rest of the team. Suddenly Gio Breaks his Goalless streak.

Since than we have seen most games result in multiple TFC goals. instead of the more common 1 per game. Prior to July 23rd we only scored more than 1 goal in just 5 out of 19 games only two of those were wins. Our first 3 game streak of the year came from the team pushing for goals for most of the match. Our defensive shape is good. our offensive pieces are there, we have the ability to play. Last season we scored more than 2 goals in 10 games out of the first 19.

If we are finally going to be an offensive side again and actually chase multiple goals a game and play as a unit where everyone not just Giovinco and defenders are considered potential goal scorers I think we could do very well for the rest of the season.

Vanney has the ability to coach.. the shape we have seen lately shows that.. no matter what our attacking shape is we should defend as a team that is a normal thing to do, however I don't think he has the ability to create winning strategies on his own. He needs to be pushed by outside forces to be successful. If Manning is able to do that and it works.. great.

There was certainly a change. Sadly It is still Vanney on game day.. RSL shows the issue there where he basically tried playing the same exact game as he did against Columbus. RSL has some poor defensive shape at times.. yet we regularly went out to the wings when on the attack giving RSL the extra few seconds to compose themselves. There was a communication issue too, we had to attacking players (I think it was Osorio and Hamilton) run into each other in what could have been a strong goal scoring chance. It literally looked like part of a montage of a bad team in a comedy movie. I expected to see a replay with Benny Hill music. these kinds of errors shouldn't happen. The players should know their roles well enough that one of them calls it and the other preps for a rebound run.

I still see things regularly that suggest bad coaching or bad mentality. Hamilton likely shouldn't have started the second half. Either he isn't in it mentally or the rest of the team thinks he isn't because people did not want to let him touch the ball.

[T-boy]

I sometimes get the impression that if we won a game 29-0 somebody on here would complain that "Vanney should have won by thirty".

And realistically, even the best teams in the world are reliant on "one great player". Are Barca the same without Messi? Were Sweden ever good without Ibra? Would Portugal have won without Ronaldo through the tournament?

TFC just had 2 clean sheets in a row. Seba does almost nothing defensively at all and clean sheets don't happen 'by accident'.

[Oldtimer]

I actually think that Vanney has the ability to be a good coach, certainly the development of the young players show this, as Molinaro has pointed out. He's still learning though. As long as he's teachable, that's OK. It takes years to become an Arena or a Kreis.

[TFC/Everton]

Fair point, I guess I did find it a bit surprising too now that I think about it.

To be fair to Manning, the only person from that RSL management team that has had ANY success post-RSL is Manning. Kries was a complete flop at NYCFC and look at what Lagerway has done to the Sounders.

Perhaps we got the brains of the operation?

[Yohan]

I actually think that Vanney has the ability to be a good coach, certainly the development of the young players show this, as Molinaro has pointed out. He's still learning though. As long as he's teachable, that's OK. It takes years to become an Arena or a Kreis.

We're in MLS 3.0. There are really no experienced coach that I'd want for MLS 3.0 era except Bruce Arena.

Even Sigi looks like he's out of ideas and stuck on MLS 2.0 era

So, most teams looking at former players from MLS 1.0 and 2.0 era and 'growing' them into MLS 3.0 managers.

Taking that into account, Vanney has just as good background and coaching badges as any to 'grow' into MLS 3.0 manager. With tons of questions about his managing ability of course.

[Yohan]

To be fair to Manning, the only person from that RSL management team that has had ANY success post-RSL is Manning. Kries was a complete flop at NYCFC and look at what Lagerway has done to the Sounders.

Perhaps we got the brains of the operation?
In the end Kreis takes the responsibility for success and failures, but he really got the shaft from NYCFC. Never really had a free hand in how he wants the team to play and roster decisions.

Lagerwey also had a bit of learning curve working with a bigger club in Seattle from RSL. He also deferred a lot to Sigi in terms of player decision.

[OgtheDim]

Sigi had a direct pipeline to team ownership - takes a lot of bad results to get that closed. I'm not sold on how Lagerway handled the transition - a lot of I in his following statements.

[Kaz]

I actually think that Vanney has the ability to be a good coach, certainly the development of the young players show this, as Molinaro has pointed out. He's still learning though. As long as he's teachable, that's OK. It takes years to become an Arena or a Kreis.

honestly as long as we are meeting our potential that is great. If Manning can keep him in line, if that is the missing piece that is great. Three wins isn't enough to get me to the point I'm pleased.. but if this becomes more the norm where we are actually in the game for 90 minutes searching for that extra goal this is good.

A one goal lead should never be good enough. Not only does it help solidify the attacking players and build confidence, but it takes pressure off if you do it with patience. You are holding possession, you are attacking, you are forcing them to change their shape, changes the substitution plan. It also keeps everyone hungry. The lack of offensive fire I really think cost us points.

Yes we had injuries but You have to give Vanney credit for the Youngsters play, though you also have to criticize the metal shape they were in on Wednesday, both those things are the coaches job to deal with. I think if he has a boss forcing him to play more aggressively than we might have a shot. At the same time Vanney needs to have enough of a backbone to be able to make his case. It has been suggested Manning gave Vanney a goals against number during the road trip we weren't to cross. Which may have caused the off season changes and team strategy we saw. The issue with that is if Vanney isn't capable of making his case and is letting Manning dictate things to him.. That is worrying too..


Which is my issue with Vanney no matter what he seems to do there is always a significant downside.

With luck.. though there is now a balance and we can actually play some football.. particularly if the kids keep some confidence when Bradley, and Johnson come back.

[Fort York Redcoat]

honestly as long as we are meeting our potential that is great. If Manning can keep him in line, if that is the missing piece that is great. Three wins isn't enough to get me to the point I'm pleased.. but if this becomes more the norm where we are actually in the game for 90 minutes searching for that extra goal this is good.

A one goal lead should never be good enough. Not only does it help solidify the attacking players and build confidence, but it takes pressure off if you do it with patience. You are holding possession, you are attacking, you are forcing them to change their shape, changes the substitution plan. It also keeps everyone hungry. The lack of offensive fire I really think cost us points.

Yes we had injuries but You have to give Vanney credit for the Youngsters play, though you also have to criticize the metal shape they were in on Wednesday, both those things are the coaches job to deal with. I think if he has a boss forcing him to play more aggressively than we might have a shot. At the same time Vanney needs to have enough of a backbone to be able to make his case. It has been suggested Manning gave Vanney a goals against number during the road trip we weren't to cross. Which may have caused the off season changes and team strategy we saw. The issue with that is if Vanney isn't capable of making his case and is letting Manning dictate things to him.. That is worrying too..


Which is my issue with Vanney no matter what he seems to do there is always a significant downside.

With luck.. though there is now a balance and we can actually play some football.. particularly if the kids keep some confidence when Bradley, and Johnson come back.

Not to nitpick (and I'm enjoying your rationale btw) but many would consider the perfect team to maintain a one goal lead and possession of the ball. We are obviously not that confident yet but it's seldom seen anywhere.

[Ultra & Proud]

We're in MLS 3.0. There are really no experienced coach that I'd want for MLS 3.0 era except Bruce Arena.

I refuse to accept what he's done recently in the bizarro "cap" world the Galaxy reside in as proof he is ready for MLS 3.0.

If you can fill a squad with what looks like 7 or 8 DP or very near DP quality players then I expect that team to be able to compete in any era of MLS. No assurances he can do it with a regular MLS squad that adheres to cap rules.

[OgtheDim]

I liked Arena - until this season. His recent rant about analytics points to a guy not interested in how the game is going. Not saying analytics are the be all and end all but ignoring information completely is foolish. I think he checks out after 2018.

[Kaz]

Not to nitpick (and I'm enjoying your rationale btw) but many would consider the perfect team to maintain a one goal lead and possession of the ball. We are obviously not that confident yet but it's seldom seen anywhere.

I'm not one of them.

2 goal lead gives that buffer.

1 goal is a best case. I'm a strong believer in hope for the best plan for the worse. As such you should always try to get at least 2 goals. If you have 1 goal and are just protecting that single goal lead you are asking for a late game goal against costing you two points. A poor penalty call, a injury... any number of things.

Ideally to me. (realistically) 1 goal great make sure to keep your shape defensively, don't take any needlessly risky chances that open you up to counters, but at the same time patiently try to break them down and keep pushing up for that goal. When you have a second goal.. you keep pushing for another.. because 3 goals are better than two.. Defend through attack gives everyone a chance to think, and forces the other team to keep thinking about defending on top of attacking. If you never push more than 1 or 2 people past the half except the occasional counter the other team knows it can focus on attack.. that is needlessly risky. At least to me.

[reggie]

i think vanney has done a fine job this season with all the injuries,i think the big fail again is BEZ unable to a make a good deal in the summer transfer window to boost this club in the dog days of summer.

[Richard]

i think vanney has done a fine job this season with all the injuries,i think the big fail again is BEZ unable to a make a good deal in the summer transfer window to boost this club in the dog days of summer.

My issue is less with getting players in the summer window, the lack of foresight before the start of the season that a solid AM was also something we needed is more concerning.

I'm not really fond of summer acquisitions either though in truth, I believe you should get all of your major moves done in the offseason and make minor adjustments midseason. Only a team in a rebuilding mode should look to add significant pieces in the summer, we only need about one more significant piece.

[reggie]

totally agree with you on that..but he blew his cap amount at the start of the season.when he got rid of PERQUIS,he should had somebody in his hip pocket and now he has around 200 k cap space in his hip pocket doing nothing.

[Richard]

Its hard to say how much cap room we do have, but yes they did screw up with Kantar/Gomez/Luke Moore/Perquis.

I will give management credit for signing Ricketts though, he looks like the summer deal you were talking about, amazing how I'm doing a 180' on the guy haha.

[molenshtain]

totally agree with you on that..but he blew his cap amount at the start of the season.when he got rid of PERQUIS,he should had somebody in his hip pocket and now he has around 200 k cap space in his hip pocket doing nothing.

He's not going to needlessly handicap our cap again after what happened last year. I don't think the club sees A cup as likely this year, all things considered. Better to save the money for the off-season when we have a lot of cap space and let the kids get the needed minutes.

It's cup or bust next year, and we'll see the signings in the off-season as evidence of that. 'till then this is what we got.

[sn0re]

https://twitter.com/BobbyBrizzo/status/761632806401376256?s=09

There is still room left, folks

[Detroit_TFC]

I was nervous about the 3-5-2 but it wrecked NER. Good call from Vanney on that one.

[Gazza_55]

https://twitter.com/BobbyBrizzo/status/761632806401376256?s=09

There is still room left, folks

Nice!!!!

[Kaz]

I'm not sure it is Vanney's wagon, he is at the wagons but I don't think he is getting directions from someone else. That being said he deserves some credit for that game. We actually kept searching for goals, we were fairly strong defensively.

NER is a team we should have beat like that.. so far we are playing to our potential this is a good thing. If we keep doing that I suspect Vanney and Bez will keep their jobs. If it is Manning pulling the strings forcing us to play to that potential great.. if it is Vanney actually getting a clue that is good too.

I'm certainly on no Van Wagon though..

[Oldtimer]

Sorry but Philly is crap who's luck ran out. They have nothing or nobody special on their roster.
TFC will get at LEAST 6 points out of the next 4 games. Book it.
Half way there now!

[Oldtimer]

First Vanney only won because of Giovinco. Now he only wins because of Manning directing him. Poor guy never gets any credit here.

[reggie]

that is true..but sure doesnt hurt to have a guy like Seba on your team.

[Kaz]

First Vanney only won because of Giovinco. Now he only wins because of Manning directing him. Poor guy never gets any credit here.


Actually if you look back I have criticized Vanney for a long while. Particularly his give Gio the Ball and hope for the best strategy which I think lead to Seba feeling too much pressure putting him off his game. When Gio gets a free Kick that isn't Vanney.

I also don't think a person that has been doing things the same way all season long suddenly changes and starts asking the team to actually play as a team without some form of outside influence. I don't rule it out.. I don't however think it is all Vanney. I think I have been fair in my opinions and criticisms of Vanney. I have used stats and game play for the most part to state my case. My opinion has always been malleable and the recent play has actually seen a change and has seen me give Vanney his due when it is clearly him. The Change we have seen I do not see has being all Vanney it happened to rapidly. Going from playing for a single goal and then basically only sending people on the attack opportunistically here and there for the rest of the game to suddenly playing as a team, and attacking for much larger amounts of the game is not a change that one expects without outside pressure so late in the season.

So no.. I have not felt that we only won because of Gio and I don't place everything on Manning. It isn't that simple. The whole of the argument that I have repeatedly presented in a statistical and malleable way has been based on the play and results not on a rhetorical talking point or a unfounded narrative as this statement suggests.

More so my opinion hasn't changed with wins or loses alone but with the game play and overall form of the team, tactical changes and substitutions. My opinion isn't not Rhetoric.. it is instead a formed opinion based on real world data. I shouldn't have to defend the nature of my opinion in this way though. I realize it isn't a popular opinion when we are winning... it isn't however deserving of condescension

[Oldtimer]

No condescension Kaz (tone of voice is hard to read), I just feel you haven't given credit where due. I like Molinaro's balance from this tweet :



John Molinaro
John Molinaro‏ @JohnMolinaro
@VLKE my sense is he doesn't get enough credit from fans. He deserves it, though. He's blossoming into a good coach.

[Oldtimer]

Vanney was not that good a coach when he took over, he was too inexperienced. What I saw early on though was a technical geek side and a willingness to learn. So I was willing to give him a chance.

[Red CB Toronto]

Vanney was not that good a coach when he took over, he was too inexperienced. What I saw early on though was a technical geek side and a willingness to learn. So I was willing to give him a chance.

Fact is everyone coach is/was a first timer at some point which means they are inexperienced. Greg has brought it to the Reds, stabilizing things along with Bez. None of the circus stuff that has gone on way too many times in the past.

[Detroit_TFC]

The tactical flexibility is welcome, whether it is the product of Vanney figuring things out, Manning sorting things out, or the informal coaches in the dressing room. Likely a combination of all three.

[ronzilla]

Vanney was not that good a coach when he took over, he was too inexperienced. What I saw early on though was a technical geek side and a willingness to learn. So I was willing to give him a chance.

Having a super star on the team is covering up a lot of Vanneys mistakes. If Giovinco was a mediocre player, Vanney would have been out the door at beggining of season.

[Fort York Redcoat]

https://twitter.com/BobbyBrizzo/status/761632806401376256?s=09

There is still room left, folks

Bobby's got a good one there but I'd go with - The Vanney Vanwagon.g:D

[Kaz]

No condescension Kaz (tone of voice is hard to read), I just feel you haven't given credit where due. I like Molinaro's balance from this tweet :

Then you clearly haven't read my comments check the game threads and further back in this thread.

That comment was sarcasm if not condescension... and it seems to fall under the "attacking the person not the argument" area to me. Which you have openly admited to doing here and it is a no no on the boards these days. I stayed out of this thread of a while due to the fact that I could give data and facts and it is ignored with these kinds of comments and only came back in when I was sure the "attacking the person" censures weren't bias modding. The "we win, vanney good" argument to me is pointless without real data to back it up. I'll give him credit when he does something deserving of it... and I do.


You have to give Vanney credit for the Youngsters play, though you also have to criticize the metal shape they were in on Wednesday, both those things are the coaches job to deal with.


I was going to say something nice about Vanney.. but now we are playing absorb the pressure Vanney Ball instead of defending through offense which is just annoying and asking for a mistake to happen.


I have to give them credit. This is the way I like seeing the team playing. Chasing goals. Though I'm worried about Vanney ball in the second half. Still that half worked out well... Though honestly without Gio on the pitch it would still be nil nil

-----


Actually until about 2 weeks ago Vanney ball was play for a goal and then try to absorb pressure for the rest of the match and hope for the best. which is why we have so many 1 goal games this year compared to last year.


Each of those acknowledge what I have saw on the field.

We have seen a significant change in general shape. Earlier in the thread it was suggested that Vanney was given a talking to.. suddenly after San Jose we started seeing a massive change. The team started working together, all the things that I've criticized all season started to melt away. Unsurprisingly once we stopped playing a game of give gio the ball and hope for the best the pressure was taken off him and he started raining goals down. The rest of the team looked dangerous and had to be dealt with once we started passing and playing as a team and keep putting pressure instead of just bunkering down once we scored. We went from teams swarm Gio ignoring most of the rest of the team to having to actually watch for runs from everyone. Which gave gio the space to do his thing as well as the chance for others to do things.

That has only improved since then. Yesterday we played most of the game playing for more goals, looking to score the whole game, which left us open to a counter where we made a single mistake but we scored 4 goals and had 1 scored against. 2 of those goals came from Gio being Gio but the first was a team play, the second was a bit of confusion. The Third game from team play and the fourth was a sneaky goal but a goal from a hungry team.. a team allowed to play. Had we played typical Vanney Ball we likely would have tied or lost as they would have spent most of the game crossing in looking for goals.

Chapman said in a mid game interview (a few games back) that Vanney has allowed them to attack more.

All of these changes don't happen from a coach like Vanney without outside pressure not when all season things have been the same. It is a total turn around. Something clearly has happened. The question becomes is this a blip or is this the new Normal. I don't know yet.. it has been two weeks. No where enough time to excuse 5 months of valid concerns. As such my opinion hasn't been swayed on Vanney yet.. there isn't enough data.


There had to be some major changes. If Manning is responsible for us starting to play as a team and drop the give it to Gio and bunker down into Vanney ball if we are up by a single goal for the whole game.. my opinion of Manning has gone way up. That seems to be the change. We are attacking more we are pushing harder. These are good things. I still see Vanney ball but no where near as often.

to which

Freudian slip :D

But yeah, Manning had some serous issues with tactics and how we are not playing 'our' game especially at home. To Vanneys credit he listened and adjusted. Its seems to be going well. Lets keep the finger crossed.

The question now becomes will he keep listening.

which is why I said later


Or he realized that Vanney isn't capable of making sound strategies on his own and is forcing him down the path a little. Vanney seems to be the kind of guy that would be a great assistant and youth coach.. but He was told in the off season not to let in too many goals and rather than creating a sound strategy with an offensively capable team he create Vanney Ball the give Gio the Ball and no one else and once we get a gaol park the bus and dare teams to take points strategy that I have been complaining about for most of the season. We finally started seeing at the end of July the team playing together and building up play forcing defenders to looks at the rest of the team. Suddenly Gio Breaks his Goalless streak.

Since than we have seen most games result in multiple TFC goals. instead of the more common 1 per game. Prior to July 23rd we only scored more than 1 goal in just 5 out of 19 games only two of those were wins. Our first 3 game streak of the year came from the team pushing for goals for most of the match. Our defensive shape is good. our offensive pieces are there, we have the ability to play. Last season we scored more than 2 goals in 10 games out of the first 19.

If we are finally going to be an offensive side again and actually chase multiple goals a game and play as a unit where everyone not just Giovinco and defenders are considered potential goal scorers I think we could do very well for the rest of the season.

Vanney has the ability to coach.. the shape we have seen lately shows that.. no matter what our attacking shape is we should defend as a team that is a normal thing to do, however I don't think he has the ability to create winning strategies on his own. He needs to be pushed by outside forces to be successful. If Manning is able to do that and it works.. great.

There was certainly a change. Sadly It is still Vanney on game day.. RSL shows the issue there where he basically tried playing the same exact game as he did against Columbus. RSL has some poor defensive shape at times.. yet we regularly went out to the wings when on the attack giving RSL the extra few seconds to compose themselves. There was a communication issue too, we had to attacking players (I think it was Osorio and Hamilton) run into each other in what could have been a strong goal scoring chance. It literally looked like part of a montage of a bad team in a comedy movie. I expected to see a replay with Benny Hill music. these kinds of errors shouldn't happen. The players should know their roles well enough that one of them calls it and the other preps for a rebound run.

I still see things regularly that suggest bad coaching or bad mentality. Hamilton likely shouldn't have started the second half. Either he isn't in it mentally or the rest of the team thinks he isn't because people did not want to let him touch the ball.


But ya never do I give Vanney credit for anything.

clearly my opinions have been set all season and haven't evolved and reflected the play on the pitch. I'm just a nonsensical person spewing nonsense and deserving of no more respect of my opinion than sarcastic condescension.

[noimpactinmtl]

Having a super star on the team is covering up a lot of Vanneys mistakes. If Giovinco was a mediocre player, Vanney would have been out the door at beggining of season.

A bad pass, botched coverage, being at the butt end of poor refereeing or just a depleted team are far bigger factors than Vanney's tactical mistakes when it coms to losses.

[Oldtimer]

Then you clearly haven't read my comments check the game threads and further back in this thread.

That comment was sarcasm if not condescension... and it seems to fall under the "attacking the person not the argument" area to me. Which you have openly admited to doing here and it is a no no on the boards these days. I stayed out of this thread of a while due to the fact that I could give data and facts and it is ignored with these kinds of comments and only came back in when I was sure the "attacking the person" censures weren't bias modding. The "we win, vanney good" argument to me is pointless without real data to back it up. I'll give him credit when he does something deserving of it... and I do.



I was not saying anything against your character or intelligence, I was specifically attacking your argument. Anything else is reading into my comment.

I actually agree with a lot of what you write, I have been following what you say, and a lot of it is well-reasoned. If you look at my own posts you will see that I am not firmly pro or against Vanney but react to what I see him doing as he develops. There is a lot of contradictory evidence when you look at the facts.

Vanney has changed in several ways as he has learned over the last couple of years, not just the last few games. He is constantly learning and evolving as a coach, that's been a significant plus for him. The other plus is how well he has brought along the young players. That is why I felt it was unfair to give the credit to Manning.




But ya never do I give Vanney credit for anything.

clearly my opinions have been set all season and haven't evolved and reflected the play on the pitch. I'm just a nonsensical person spewing nonsense and deserving of no more respect of my opinion than sarcastic condescension.



I never said anything like that, that completely misstates my opinion of you completely (I actually respect your opinion more than you think).

My comment actually was not directed specifically at you.

Secondly, my comment in no way was about anyone's intelligence, character, or ability. It was directed at a certain mindset that is common among a lot of supporters (one that Molinaro has criticized as well) that gives Vanney too little credit for what he has accomplished. Maybe he was prodded at points by Manning (and prodding is what a good boss should be doing anyways), but the execution was his own and he deserves credit for that.

[Gazza_55]

First Vanney only won because of Giovinco. Now he only wins because of Manning directing him. Poor guy never gets any credit here.

This.

The development of players like Zavaleta, Chapman, Bloom, Delgado etc, the formations he's used, the tactical changes and the injuries he's had to deal with it should be more than enough to earn him credit.

Maybe it's all Robin Fraser doing :facepalm:

[Oldtimer]

Bradley's comments on Vanney start at 3:40

http://www.torontofc.ca/post/2016/08/06/it-felt-great-three-points-even-better-michael-bradley?autoplay=true

[Kaz]

My comment actually was not directed specifically at you.





No condescension Kaz (tone of voice is hard to read), I just feel [b]you]/b] haven't given credit where due. I like Molinaro's balance from this tweet :


could have fouled me.. when you specifically stated your commented was directed at me. A statement that was sarcastic and meant to ridicule anyone that doesn't see things your way. There is no way else to read your comments as there is no other substance.

Nor have you ever challenged anything I have put forward.. sarcasm alone is not a valid criticism without nor is saying there is a lot contradictory evidence without providing it.

[Detroit_TFC]

“Yes, yes, I know all the jokes. What else could I have expected at Highbury? But I went to Chelsea and to Tottenham and to Rangers, and saw the same thing: that the natural state of a football fan is bitter disappointment, no matter what the score.”
― Nick Hornby (https://www.goodreads.com/author/show/2929.Nick_Hornby), Fever Pitch (https://www.goodreads.com/work/quotes/2961920)

[Oldtimer]

could have fouled me.. when you specifically stated your commented was directed at me.

You are included, but you aren't the only one. I hope that is clear enough? Just a short visit to Facebook will show how Vanney is treated. I'm not targeting specifically you.


sarcasm alone is not a valid criticism without nor is saying there is a lot contradictory evidence without providing it.

I guess you didn't get a chance to listen to the link to Bradley's comments that I posted? He gives full credit to Vanney and says he has been "great." I'd take that as at least a little evidence that Vanney deserves some credit. :o Now one could argue that Bradley is sucking up to the coach, but Bradley doesn't need to do that to get playing time and he criticizes the league's handling of international dates earlier in the interview. Bradley's always been very straight-forward in what he says both positive and negative.

The problem isn't with the facts, it's with the interpretation of the facts. If bad things are "Vanney's fault," and good things are said to be usually due to other factors, then the analysis is not balanced. That is a criticism of a position, but it is a fair one.

[OgtheDim]

“Yes, yes, I know all the jokes. What else could I have expected at Highbury? But I went to Chelsea and to Tottenham and to Rangers, and saw the same thing: that the natural state of a football fan is bitter disappointment, no matter what the score.”
― Nick Hornby (https://www.goodreads.com/author/show/2929.Nick_Hornby), Fever Pitch (https://www.goodreads.com/work/quotes/2961920)


I remind myself of this quotation at least once a game. I find myself not moaning as much about bad plays as I used to.

Life is too damn short to worry about a bad pass by Delgado.

[Detroit_TFC]

I remind myself of this quotation at least once a game. I find myself not moaning as much about bad plays as I used to.

Life is too damn short to worry about a bad pass by Delgado.

I try to remind myself of this basic truth. But the better the team plays, the more frazzled I'm going to be over the little things, I expect.

[Oldtimer]

Vanney will stick around (with what happened with Kreis) : http://m.torontosun.com/2016/08/11/vanney-a-rarity-tfc-coach-that-will-stick-around

[boozilla]

Malleable opinions, data evidence, rhetorical fouls and a F*ckin 4 game winning streak!!

[smtavare]

I was beginning to believe in Vanney but now back to meh! Good with kids - that's it.

Winning streak with bottom feeder teams - then ties with Last place in West Houston with man down, Bono saved their ass too.

Same strategy as San Jose Game, ball crosses in the box but takes Altidore and puts in fast winger Ricketts? Should have put in Hamilton on for crossing strategy!

This shows poor coaching tactics.

[Ivy]

5 games unbeaten, road point under tough conditions, countless injuries, and Vanney is meh? Lol
give me a break.

[OgtheDim]

Yes, let's keep in Altidore and risk his season for the sake of 2 points.

[Oldtimer]

I was beginning to believe in Vanney

Funny... I don't remember any posts by you praising anything about Vanney. :rolleyes:

From the match thread:


Voice of reason, here.
First and foremost, Toronto FC should be disappointed it didn't win, but...
The two injuries handcuffed Vanney in the second half. He knew he was going to use his remaining substitute on Altidore.
I spoke with Vanney post-game. He pushed Altidore to 70 minutes despite having planned to only play him for an hour.
If Altidore stays in that game, I think they win it.
Furthermore, raging over a draw on the road in MLS amid a five-game unbeaten streak is a bit bizarre.

Larson


Voice Of Reason reminder...
Toronto FC has lost twice since May 28, winning the Canadian Championship along the way.

I think what Vanney does need to do is learn how to break down bunkering teams. I'm not sure his team would have beaten Preki's TFC. That's an area for growth. however, that's not enough to call for his firing. That's just further room for growth.

All managers (even the best in the world) have embarrassing games, so one single tie (not even loss) shouldn't cloud the picture, especially in MLS where parity is so strong.

[CBTFC]

Sorry, but in no way is Vanney responsible for the draw.

Handcuffed by 2 injury subs in the first half.

If Altidore's lunging chance is a few inches to the right, we're not even having this discussion. The players had an entire half of being a man up to get one measly goal.

2nd in the East, 5 games unbeaten and only TWO losses since May 28.

Can't believe how fickle some are, it's kind of embarrassing.

[Ultra & Proud]

If some people on this boards expectations were followed and accepted in worldwide football there would be about 300 manager changes per month. Or more. There'd be a minimum of 20 a month in MLS alone.

[Yohan]

If some people on this boards expectations were followed and accepted in worldwide football there would be about 300 manager changes per month. Or more. There'd be a minimum of 20 a month in MLS alone.
Last thing I want in MLS is Serie A style manager carousel. So frustrating to observe

[MartinUtd]

I've avoided weighing in on this situation but I wanted to add something given the recent draw.

So what if the subs were used in the first half? I fully understand taking Altidore off considering he's just getting back into it, no sense rushing. But why are so few of our players afraid to take a shot from 20 yards? That to me is a coaching issue. What good would other substitutes be if they just stick to the same game plan of long balls to Giovinco and crosses from wingers that can't cross?

[Ultra & Proud]

Last thing I want in MLS is Serie A style manager carousel. So frustrating to observe
Funniest thing is that we've done that method before and we all know how that worked out. Since we stayed firm, we've had our best results in our history so what should we do? Go back to the old method of changing managers and philosophies for no good reason again.

[Yohan]

I've avoided weighing in on this situation but I wanted to add something given the recent draw.

So what if the subs were used in the first half? I fully understand taking Altidore off considering he's just getting back into it, no sense rushing. But why are so few of our players afraid to take a shot from 20 yards? That to me is a coaching issue. What good would other substitutes be if they just stick to the same game plan of long balls to Giovinco and crosses from wingers that can't cross?
My biggest frustration again was seeing crosses from flanks into a set defence that's dominant in the air, and TFC didn't have anyone who's aerial threat in the box. TFC has trouble breaking down a bunkering defence and almost lost again last night on counters.

[Yohan]

Funniest thing is that we've done that method before and we all know how that worked out. Since we stayed firm, we've had our best results in our history so what should we do? Go back to the old method of changing managers and philosophies for no good reason again.
I'm still mad at Vanney for SJ game, but if we get a new coach now or at the end of the season, the new coach will want his own guys and tactics and start all over again. No manager (at least ones considered an 'improvement' over Vanney) is going to agree being handicapped being dictated what players he is going to have.

[Ultra & Proud]

My biggest frustration again was seeing crosses from flanks into a set defence that's dominant in the air, and TFC didn't have anyone who's aerial threat in the box. TFC has trouble breaking down a bunkering defence and almost lost again last night on counters.
This is a problem with how we're playing for sure. The commentators last night, while terrible, were right in the fact that we have a lot of players who overlook shots from the top of the area that could maybe go in but would at least pull some defenders forward to unpack the box. The cross and hope for the best thing was the SJ downfall and what stymied us in the last 20 minutes last night. Almost would have been better for us to drop back, pack the midfield, and hope to hit on the counter.

[OgtheDim]

If it's a choice between Morgan for Morrow or Endoh for Hagglund, I would have chosen the later move last night. The fact we couldn't do that hampered us.

That and Bloom crosses and passes way better than Hagglund.

So, yes, those two forced subs hampered us.

[ensco]

We are 10-7-7, which is not great given the payroll. We threw a lot of points away in May and June. You have to normalize somewhat for injuries, but of course every team has injuries.

You need the full season to make a call on Bez/Vanney. I am very happy that we have been playng better, but no way would I be prepared to extend Vanney based on the win streak. Nor will I be suicidal if we lose the next two road games.

This isn't exactly about results. In a playoff system, good teams can lose on the day, and vice versa. Bez/Vanney's job are to have TFC be an elite team in October, a legitimate contender that every team is afraid to play. Anything short of that is failure.

In particular, we need to see what Plan B is when good defensive teams shut Gio down, by any means necessary, as they surely will. I want to see fear in the eyes of defenders when Osorio or Altidore or whomever gets the fall in space because the opponent has been keying on Gio. Larsun and others are claiming it's there now, but I don't see it. Right now we only go as far as Gio takes us.

[smtavare]

I said Meh, not to fire him, geez bring out the pom poms already

Vanney's great, they are great, we're are almost in first, let's plan the parade.

Its just an opinion
It seems you are not allowed to have one in these forums without being attacked

TFC owe me for 9 years invested, they still have done nothing yet

Last year they only made the playoffs because an extra spot was added.

They still have a lot to prove.

When Sebastian Giovinco wins games by himself it was all Vanney, but when they tie against last place 10 men team, it was the players, whatever

- that's my opinion and I'm entitled to one

[OgtheDim]

Not sure there are other teams with 2 DPs out due to injuries for as long as we have had. Injury weeks to starters is really high on this team this season.

Not going to get into the salary performance discussion again - the assumptions of that argument are flawed given the variables involved in this weird away heavy than home heavy season.

[OgtheDim]

Oh, and saying your opinion is wrong does not = saying you can't have that opinion.

[smtavare]

Saying my opinions are wrong is wrong, disagreement with them and having your own I'm fine with.

So let's just leave it at that

[Fort York Redcoat]

Saying my opinions are wrong is wrong, disagreement with them and having your own I'm fine with.

So let's just leave it at that

I think you're confused.

When you reference facts as opinion you (as everyone else) it's subject to clarification.

You say the team hasn't done anything. That's wrong. It's a fact they've won things.

Your OPINION is that it isn't important enough to warrant. Fair enough.

But all the sarcasm doesn't help your case above. I don't see these attacks you mention but I do see your pom pom remark.

[ManUtd4ever]

If I was to grade Vanney's performance at this point, I would give him a B. He has done an admirable job keeping the team in the hunt with many inexperienced newcomers forced into regular duty as a result of injuries, but I expect more out of this club with a healthy starting lineup.

[Oldtimer]

If I was to grade Vanney's performance at this point, I would give him a B. He has done an admirable job keeping the team in the hunt with many inexperienced newcomers forced into regular duty as a result of injuries, but I expect more out of this club with a healthy starting lineup.

Fair enough, I'd give a B minus because while he's done great with the kids and the defense is (mostly) strong, he hasn't worked enough on how to break down teams that bunker and he hasn't worked enough on shooting for our secondary players. Sure "pass to Gio or Altidore" might be a good strategy 80% of the time, but you need options when they aren't free of defenders and you are the one that can get a shot. There also needs to be more varieties of strategies when plan A fails. Not just plan B but there should be a plan C because you never know when a key player will be sent off or have injuries, or the other team's coach will react in an unexpected way.

So while he is as good as an average MLS coach by now, I want better. We have an elite team and he needs to grow into an elite coach that can contend for the MLS Cup. I think he has the ability to get there and seems willing to learn, but I want to see continuous improvement and Manning should be demanding that.

[ag futbol]

Fair enough, I'd give a B minus because while he's done great with the kids and the defense is (mostly) strong, he hasn't worked enough on how to break down teams that bunker and he hasn't worked enough on shooting for our secondary players. Sure "pass to Gio or Altidore" might be a good strategy 80% of the time, but you need options when they aren't free of defenders and you are the one that can get a shot. There also needs to be more varieties of strategies when plan A fails. Not just plan B but there should be a plan C because you never know when a key player will be sent off or have injuries, or the other team's coach will react in an unexpected way.

So while he is as good as an average MLS coach by now, I want better. We have an elite team and he needs to grow into an elite coach that can contend for the MLS Cup. I think he has the ability to get there and seems willing to learn, but I want to see continuous improvement and Manning should be demanding that.
Agreed. But I think a large chunk of this goes on Bez for the way the roster is constructed.

I'd give Vanney around the same grade you did, Bez slightly lower.

[CBTFC]

Not sure there are other teams with 2 DPs out due to injuries for as long as we have had. Injury weeks to starters is really high on this team this season.

Not going to get into the salary performance discussion again - the assumptions of that argument are flawed given the variables involved in this weird away heavy than home heavy season.

That's probably one of the most underrated stats in team sports. Man games lost to injury.

The year the Tampa Bay Lightning won the Stanley Cup, they had a ridiculously low number of man games lost to injury amongst their starters, it was maybe 50 overall or so for the entire season.

I'm still incredibly surprised as to how well this team is performing even with all the man games lost to injury for Altidore, Bradley, Johnson, Cheyrou, Irwin, etc.

[Ivy]

LA galaxy has 7 DPs, Bruce Arena, and increaible
depth. TFC is 1 point behind them.

TFC is not Barcelona.

[OgtheDim]

...TFC is not Barcelona.

Our problem is we have no experience of being even freaking Columbus. All these seasons of not doing what every other team but NYCFC and Orlando has done means our reference points for judging success tend to be top division Europe = apples to oranges unfortunately. If we and all these other teams were in the EPL or La Liga or Seria A or L1 or the Bundisleaga - Vanney isn't good enough for where this team wants to be. But, none of these teams are.

I'd give Vanney a 75 - a B. Bringing along the defence and the youth well but we do seem to go through periods of x happening and no ability to respond. He gets the opening tactics right most of the time. But it takes weeks for him to get points into the heads of the forwards.

[Ultra & Proud]

But it takes weeks for him to get points into the heads of the forwards.
I blame this on his less than lively personality. The words are probably there but not the voice to drive it into their f*cking heads.


And we've had the opposite of him in Mariner. Big mouth, loud personality driving oodles of mindless gibberish into the player's heads and resulting in no one having a clue what they're supposed to be doing. Unless of course what we saw was exactly what he wanted. Who knows? He's nuts anyway.

[C.Ronaldo]

I blame this on his less than lively personality. The words are probably there but not the voice to drive it into their f*cking heads.


And we've had the opposite of him in Mariner. Big mouth, loud personality driving oodles of mindless gibberish into the player's heads and resulting in no one having a clue what they're supposed to be doing. Unless of course what we saw was exactly what he wanted. Who knows? He's nuts anyway.

The only reason Bradley was there, Vanney added, is because TFC originally thought Sebastian Giovinco would play-make from midfield — where he started in Vancouver last season before moving to forward.

Still don't understand how this ever happened. Seba told himself he is a fwd first

[Ivy]

Our problem is we have no experience of being even freaking Columbus. All these seasons of not doing what every other team but NYCFC and Orlando has done means our reference points for judging success tend to be top division Europe = apples to oranges unfortunately. If we and all these other teams were in the EPL or La Liga or Seria A or L1 or the Bundisleaga - Vanney isn't good enough for where this team wants to be. But, none of these teams are.

I'd give Vanney a 75 - a B. Bringing along the defence and the youth well but we do seem to go through periods of x happening and no ability to respond. He gets the opening tactics right most of the time. But it takes weeks for him to get points into the heads of the forwards.
youre missing my point... And by talking about not having experience like columbus, are you somehow refering to our history as having anything to do with how you're rating Vanney?

What I mean by Barcelona results is that winning 99% of the time is realistic. This league, this salary cap, doesn't allow for that - you're well aware of that. Every team has crappy results, every team has bad days.

Dallas got blown out 4-5 times this year; As did NYCFC. TFC has the highest PPG in the east, with missing 4 or more starters for 8 games, and you're giving Vanney a B-?

You guys have unrealistic expectations from that a team was 95% different just 58 games ago.

When Irwin, WJ, Bradley, and Altidore went down, I was certain that we'll be scraping the basement floor - yet TFC is second in the east, and won the Amway.

[OgtheDim]

youre missing my point... And by talking about not having experience like columbus, are you somehow refering to our history as having anything to do with how you're rating Vanney?

.

I agree with what you are saying...just built on it. I'm saying we don't know have local reference points to judge how managers should be in comparison to the rest of the league. But having watched this league and seen how other coaches do, I rate Vanney against them with a B rating.

[Yohan]

http://i.imgur.com/sIylqiU.png

[Detroit_TFC]

That's a bigger effect than I thought.

[ronzilla]

When teams have 1-2 man advantage, against weaker sides, you should be winning regardless of where your playing.

[TheGoodson]

When teams have 1-2 man advantage, against weaker sides, you should be winning regardless of where your playing.

Agreed, but that is more on the players then it is the coach.... He sets up the team, but the guys on the pitch need to execute and perform.

[Leedsoronto]

10 man teams park the bus, if it's a tied game when the player is sent off then good luck trying to score coz it's guna be a 10 man defence in front of you

[Ultra & Proud]

When teams have 1-2 man advantage, against weaker sides, you should be winning regardless of where your playing.

Watched decades of football through my days and I've seen enough top world teams fail to win with the advantage when opponents park the bus. It's how it goes if the opponent is organized defensively and is playing to hold the draw.

[OgtheDim]

Comparing and contrasting the SJE and the Houston games, I'd say the running off the ball was slightly better in the second game. But nobody took long range shots. If they are going to not let you pass your way to the goal, shoot the darn ball and force them to come out a bit more. I would have liked to see Bradley on Sunday just put the laces behind a few.

[Canary10]

If you're up two you should win, or at least not concede! Up one is not as big an advantage as many think. Especially when teams park it, as others have said.

[ronzilla]

Watched decades of football through my days and I've seen enough top world teams fail to win with the advantage when opponents park the bus. It's how it goes if the opponent is organized defensively and is playing to hold the draw.

Only small percentage will hold off losing when down players and its mostly when you have 2 top clubs or teams on a similar level. In this case, it's a top and bottom table game.

[Oldtimer]

Only small percentage will hold off losing when down players and its mostly when you have 2 top clubs or teams on a similar level. In this case, it's a top and bottom table game.

Top to bottom in MLS is actually quite close. It was a real "achievement" of the dubious sort for TFC to be so consistently bad over 8 years. Parity works strongly against that.

[Ultra & Proud]

Only small percentage will hold off losing when down players and its mostly when you have 2 top clubs or teams on a similar level. In this case, it's a top and bottom table game.
Seen top EPL squads get stymied by tough mid table teams enough in my time to know that it happens. The SJ match is different because you should never lose up 2 men but drawing up a man away from home is not a terrible result.

[Yohan]

http://www.torontosun.com/2016/08/18/supporters-shield-in-reach-says-tfcs-vanney

Vanney may have jinxed us with Supporter's Shield talk lol.

At least he can't be accused of not having a winning mentality.

[KurtLarSUN]

http://www.torontosun.com/2016/08/18/supporters-shield-in-reach-says-tfcs-vanney

Vanney may have jinxed us with Supporter's Shield talk lol.

At least he can't be accused of not having a winning mentality.

To be fair, it was me that flat out asked him Thursday: "Do you think the Supporters' Shield is within reach?"

I don't think it is. He says it might be. As I wrote, Toronto FC will likely need eight more wins to claim top spot in the league.

If both Colorado and Dallas stumble, seven wins from final 10 games might do. But, highly unlikely.

http://www.ottawasun.com/2016/08/18/supporters-shield-in-reach-says-tfcs-vanney

[Red4ever]

To be fair, it was me that flat out asked him Thursday: "Do you think the Supporters' Shield is within reach?"

I don't think it is. He says it might be. As I wrote, Toronto FC will likely need eight more wins to claim top spot in the league.

If both Colorado and Dallas stumble, seven wins from final 10 games might do. But, highly unlikely.

http://www.ottawasun.com/2016/08/18/supporters-shield-in-reach-says-tfcs-vanney

♫Same old Larson, Always Jinxing.♫

[Oldtimer]

More varied attack this week, I'm glad Vanney was reading this thread last week, lol.

[ensco]

That was a big game for Vanney. Philly needed this game. We didn't. That means something.

[Jack]

That was a big game for Vanney. Philly needed this game. We didn't. That means something.
A dominant road win is huge.

[Ivy]

This thread is awesome.
Flip flop flip flop.

[Jack]

This thread is awesome.
Flip flop flip flop.
I'm wearing flip flops right now.

[flatpicker]

This thread is awesome.
Flip flop flip flop.


I'm wearing flip flops right now.

Flip Flops hurt me where the strap goes between my big toe and it's neighbour.
Never could wear them.
I'm totally against flip flops.

[Ivy]

Flip Flops hurt me where the strap goes between my big toe and it's neighbour.
Never could wear them.
I'm totally against flip flops.
Yah I don't do the ones with the toe splitters. Gotta keep all the toes together or nothing.

[Redcoe15]

I hate flip flops. They don't stay on my feet and they making them dirty.

[CBTFC]

Woke up this morning to see that Vanney is still our manager. Absolutely disgusted with management.

When will they realize that us fans have had ENOUGH of this success and consistency?!?

I'll be going about my day scowling at our current 2nd place standing in the conference, and be bitter about our 6 game unbeaten streak....

;)

[flatpicker]

Woke up this morning to see that Vanney is still our manager. Absolutely disgusted with management.

When will they realize that us fans have had ENOUGH of this success and consistency?!?

I'll be going about my day scowling at our current 2nd place standing in the conference, and be bitter about our 6 game unbeaten streak....

;)

What's this got to do with flip flops?
Stay on topic, buddy.

[Redcoe15]

Woke up this morning to see that Vanney is still our manager. Absolutely disgusted with management.

When will they realize that us fans have had ENOUGH of this success and consistency?!?

I'll be going about my day scowling at our current 2nd place standing in the conference, and be bitter about our 6 game unbeaten streak....

;)

:smilielol5:

[Auzzy]

Great turnaround vs. Philly!!! I'll be very interested to see what TFC does the next time a team bunkers, tries to draw our defence & DMs out of shape, and to score on the counter. Might we see that vs. Orlando?? Then again, with Cooper coming in, Johnson back (adding speed & toughness in the defensive midfield), and a number of players improving (Bradley, Altidore, Osorio, etc.) it may be less successful anyway to play that way vs. TFC than it was recently.

[TFC Tifoso]

can you hear the haters sing?....nooooooo.....nooooooooo.....

[CBTFC]

can you hear the haters sing?....nooooooo.....nooooooooo.....

And really that's all it is at this point...just simply hating, for no good reason.

I bet all this positivity and success is driving them NUTS. Lol.

[ensco]

Can you guys stop with the idiotic and infantile "haters" thing? This is not how this works. You are making this up.

This is a team that was underperforming for Vanney's first year and a half given payroll. They are going to lose a game or two they should have won, yet. Neither of those things are the point.

What I wanted, what I think any thinking fan wants, is to see the team improving, gelling, and going into another playoff team's stadium, for an important game late in the season, and dispatching that team like they were a buzzing fly. Which I don't think I ever saw a TFC team ever do until Saturday.

I mean, I guess I am glad for Vanney, but getting emotionally involved with the coach or management is not the point, and Manning will fire him the second he thinks it makes sense, win streak or not.

Vanney is a suit. If he performs, he maybe gets to keep his job, same as the rest of us. Or Vanney may just leave in any scenario - Manning really hung him out to dry with that "8 game" thing, Vanney may just leave if he has options.

[KurtLarSUN]

Can you guys stop with the idiotic and infantile "haters" thing? This is not how this works. You are making this up.

This is a team that was underperforming for Vanney's first year and a half given payroll. They are going to lose a game or two they should have won, yet. Neither of those things are the point.

What I wanted, what I think any thinking fan wants, is to see the team improving, gelling, and going into another playoff team's stadium, for an important game late in the season, and dispatching that team like they were a buzzing fly. Which I don't think I ever saw a TFC team ever do until Saturday.

I mean, I guess I am glad for Vanney, but getting emotionally involved with the coach or management is not the point, and Manning will fire him the second he thinks it makes sense, win streak or not.

Vanney is a suit. If he performs, he maybe gets to keep his job, same as the rest of us. Or Vanney may just leave in any scenario - Manning really hung him out to dry with that "8 game" thing, Vanney may just leave if he has options.

"Given payroll" is a naive way of looking at an MLS roster.
The league's rules are competitively neutral. The salary cap ensures that.
As we saw last year, it doesn't matter if you have a pair of strikers making $13 million combined if the roster isn't balanced.
Now then, it would have been fairly harsh to blame Vanney for a lack of roster balance in his first full season. But, people did, of course.
What we're seeing now is what happens when you're patient with a manager and you actually give him time to build out a vision.
Part of the problem with Vanney naysayers is they completely ignore all of the little, critical decisions Vanney has gotten right.
There has been plenty to be critical of, but it's usually not done in a balanced way.
I read this board daily. There's an undoubted bias against Vanney here.
The fact it took a six-game unbeaten run for you to finally soften your stance speaks volumes.
If you want to go over the mistakes Vanney has made, we can.
But the list of positives since the start of last year would be far, far greater.
I'm sure there's still someone somewhere mumbling about the Hagglund substitute in San Jose...

[TFC Tifoso]

Can you guys stop with the idiotic and infantile "haters" thing? This is not how this works. You are making this up.

This is a team that was underperforming for Vanney's first year and a half given payroll. They are going to lose a game or two they should have won, yet. Neither of those things are the point.

What I wanted, what I think any thinking fan wants, is to see the team improving, gelling, and going into another playoff team's stadium, for an important game late in the season, and dispatching that team like they were a buzzing fly. Which I don't think I ever saw a TFC team ever do until Saturday.

I mean, I guess I am glad for Vanney, but getting emotionally involved with the coach or management is not the point, and Manning will fire him the second he thinks it makes sense, win streak or not.

Vanney is a suit. If he performs, he maybe gets to keep his job, same as the rest of us.

Ok fair enough....it was probably a bit juvenile.....

But while I agree with the second half of your post, I don't think that Vanney underperformed at the beginning.
For me, unless you have unlimited funds, it takes at least a year to turn over a roster in MLS, and what we seen at the start was not Vanney's team imo; we made the playoffs last year basically on the skill of out top players.

I have no attachment to Vanney as a person, you're right, he's a suit, and it could very well be easy come, easy go if all goes south.
But what I seen from the beginning was something I hadn't seen from any previous coach: someone who is tactical, cerebral, and most importantly, knows the league.
And for some to suggest that we blow it up AGAIN at a time where we were missing some of out best players, players that Vanney most likely vouched for and brought on to fit his image of the team, is a suggestion that lacks any sense of logic.

Vanney is certainly not perfect, but again, to me he showed qualities from the beginning that we hadn't seen from an previous coach, qualities which are essential to being successful.
On to of that, it seems like the dressing room is finally in order after years of it being a mess, and I usually credit the coach for morale. The players certainly speak highly of him.

[ensco]

"Given payroll" is a naive way of looking at an MLS roster.
The league's rules are competitively neutral. The salary cap ensures that.
As we saw last year, it doesn't matter if you have a pair of strikers making $13 million combined if the roster isn't balanced.
Now then, it would have been fairly harsh to blame Vanney for a lack of roster balance in his first full season. But, people did, of course.
What we're seeing now is what happens when you're patient with a manager and you actually give him time to build out a vision.
Part of the problem with Vanney naysayers is they completely ignore all of the little, critical decisions Vanney has gotten right.
There has been plenty to be critical of, but it's usually not done in a balanced way.
I read this board daily. There's an undoubted bias against Vanney here.
The fact it took a six-game unbeaten run for you to finally soften your stance speaks volumes.
If you want to go over the mistakes Vanney has made, we can.
But the list of positives since the start of last year would be far, far greater.
I'm sure there's still someone somewhere mumbling about the Hagglund substitute in San Jose...

I'll be happy to have a go at this supposed "bias" question.

Vanney got the job without much (any?) relevant experience. That's not his fault, but that doesn't matter either. If I started with my arms folded because he was the untested personal choice of a 32 year old 4 years removed from making photocopies in a law firm, it's for good reason, and not because I am biased.

The team underperformed for most of Vanney's tenure. You think that's bias, I think that's obvious.

"Given payroll" is just another way of saying that a high percentage of the good things that have happened here under Vanney relate directly to the brilliance of Sebastian Giovinco. The team could have had you, me or my washing machine as manager for the large majority of its victories in 2015-2016.

I didn't "soften my stance", it never changed. The streak is fabulous, but is irrelevant to this question. We will all evaluate the totality of the thing at year end. I still don't think Vanney's been that great, and I bet Manning doesn't rate him either, and I further bet that Bez/Vanney are pretty much gone already. That is total speculation on my part, more a comment on the MO of guys like Manning. They always bring in their own guys. The team winning because Altidore is coming around, that just makes the case that it's the DPs/payroll, and not the coach, that is driving performance. (Plus I suspect Manning has a mandate to cut payroll, but that is for another day.)

Having said that, I thought the 8 game thing was crazy, and I also emphatically said we should stick with Vanney when others wanted his head earlier in the year.

I want progress, which we are now getting. Especially as it relates to non DPs (eg Delgado, Osorio). We still have to see if we get backsliding.

All these "little things" you speak of ... you need to elaborate. I don't see that.

I agree with your point on giving him (or anyone) time, I made the same point earlier re gelling.

[ensco]

But while I agree with the second half of your post, I don't think that Vanney underperformed at the beginning.
......

On to of that, it seems like the dressing room is finally in order after years of it being a mess, and I usually credit the coach for morale. The players certainly speak highly of him.

I thought the team should have been better in the second half of 2015. We limped into an expanded playoffs, and got smacked.

You are right about morale. Team has been drama free. Vanney deserves marks for that, as do Bez and Manning. It's usually guys going over their bosses that creates problems.

[ManUtd4ever]

At full strength, this team should be able to dominate against the majority of clubs in the league, and they have started showing signs of being able to do that on a relatively consistent basis. As others have indicated, I will reserve judgment on Vanney until the playoffs, but I do think he deserves credit for managing a severely depleted roster to a respectable record for several weeks to keep us within striking distance of 1st place in the East and home field advantage in the post season.

[Yohan]

At full strength, this team should be able to dominate against the majority of clubs in the league, and they have started showing signs of being able to do that on a relatively consistent basis. As others have indicated, I will reserve judgment on Vanney until the playoffs, but I do think he deserves credit for managing a severely depleted roster to a respectable record for several weeks to keep us within striking distance of 1st place in the East and home field advantage in the post season.
For the first team in TFC history, in a 4-4-2 diamond formation, now with addition of Cooper if he plays as AM, I think TFC is at least 2 deep in most positions.
The injury crisis is a bit of blessing in disguise as we found out that our kids and depth can fill in without being terrible, and I'm comfortable with slotting in our depth players for an injury or for squad rotation.

We never had so much depth in the roster before. Yes, TFC relies on Giovinco heavily (but what team wouldn't with Giovinco) but I don't expect a loss whenever TFC plays even without Giovinco.

[OgtheDim]

Oh I fully expect a calamity every time.
3-1 on Saturday and I didn't start to breathe until the last minute of extra time.....just too many memories. :hide:

BUT, with this team, I also fully expect them all to try hard, something I didn't see all that much before Bradley was around, and I fully enjoy that attack.

I think it will take me longer to learn to love that defence.

[TFC Tifoso]

I thought the team should have been better in the second half of 2015. We limped into an expanded playoffs, and got smacked.

You are right about morale. Team has been drama free. Vanney deserves marks for that, as do Bez and Manning. It's usually guys going over their bosses that creates problems.

Ok, its a matter of opinion and we're all entitled to it.

My expectation for last year was to simply make the playoffs and break that barrier. I can understand that others' were greater, but that was just a personal expectation.
Hopefully the disappointment v Montreal will give the necessary motivation to do better this year if/when they make it again. I would expect them to add on what they did last year.....especially if the first game is at home.

Team morale is something that is very important to me.
You don't have to have all "nice guys" on the roster, but its like any other job.....if you don't like the environment you're in, you won't want to go to work, so that is something I really give the staff credit for.

[KurtLarSUN]

I'll be happy to have a go at this supposed "bias" question.

Vanney got the job without much (any?) relevant experience. That's not his fault, but that doesn't matter either. If I started with my arms folded because he was the untested personal choice of a 32 year old 4 years removed from making photocopies in a law firm, it's for good reason, and not because I am biased.

The team underperformed for most of Vanney's tenure. You think that's bias, I think that's obvious.

"Given payroll" is just another way of saying that a high percentage of the good things that have happened here under Vanney relate directly to the brilliance of Sebastian Giovinco. The team could have had you, me or my washing machine as manager for the large majority of its victories in 2015-2016.

I didn't "soften my stance", it never changed. The streak is fabulous, but is irrelevant to this question. We will all evaluate the totality of the thing at year end. I still don't think Vanney's been that great, and I bet Manning doesn't rate him either, and I further bet that Bez/Vanney are pretty much gone already. That is total speculation on my part, more a comment on the MO of guys like Manning. They always bring in their own guys. The team winning because Altidore is coming around, that just makes the case that it's the DPs/payroll, and not the coach, that is driving performance. (Plus I suspect Manning has a mandate to cut payroll, but that is for another day.)

Having said that, I thought the 8 game thing was crazy, and I also emphatically said we should stick with Vanney when others wanted his head earlier in the year.

I want progress, which we are now getting. Especially as it relates to non DPs (eg Delgado, Osorio). We still have to see if we get backsliding.

All these "little things" you speak of ... you need to elaborate. I don't see that.

I agree with your point on giving him (or anyone) time, I made the same point earlier re gelling.

This still isn't a rational response.

1) You basically concede that you had a preconceived notion (a bias) due to Vanney's supposed lack of experience. Is there evidence that experienced managers fare better than supposed non-experienced managers in MLS? No, there isn't. Porter, Berhalter, Vieira, Mastroeni etc. all have had pretty immediate success in their first head coaching roles.
2) The team underperformed? According to who or what? He took over an average-to-bad team. They remained average until this season (his second full season).
3) Your third point is another fallacy. The good this season isn't because of Giovinco. It's because of TFC's improved defence and defensive structure. Without TFC's improved defence (which Vanney receives some credit for), they might be on the outside of the playoff picture. Building a defence takes more than one season.
4) Your fourth point might be the strangest of all. "With no proof or reasoning, I think Vanny/Bez are gone.." What! Why!?
5) Lastly, you say you want progress, but don't appear at all interested in allowing time for said progress to take shape. Management, GMs, coaches should be judged on 3-5 years.


Little things:
*Signing Delgado (who nobody had even heard of).
*Trading nothing for Zavaleta (the team's starting CB).
*Transitioning Bradley to play as a DM, therefore providing more defensive clarity.
*Very underrated is how well TFC has defended in the diamond, which traditionally is difficult to do due to lack of width.

I can go on...
I can also name plenty of mistakes ...

[KurtLarSUN]

I thought the team should have been better in the second half of 2015. We limped into an expanded playoffs, and got smacked.

You are right about morale. Team has been drama free. Vanney deserves marks for that, as do Bez and Manning. It's usually guys going over their bosses that creates problems.

Also a fallacy...

TFC didn't limp into the playoffs, they were a win away from finishing above Montreal and hosting a playoff game. They were four points from a first-round bye.

The margins in this league are so small. So overreactions are usually, well, overreactions.

[TFC Tifoso]

I find it very odd when people say "TFC is only winning now because, Giovinco, Altidore, etc." are playing well.....

Fact of the matter is when your top players underperform/are injured, 9/10 times it has a negative effect on the overall team performance.
Sure you could cherry pick a season here or there in any sport when the 1/10 happened, but you will always need to rely on your top players to carry the team.

To me the harder part (and this is imo where coaching comes in), is to control the egos and keep the team united.

And add to that, this year we have had lesser players step up to help TFC through the early part of the summer, and to me a lot of that falls on Vanney alone....he is the guy who is with them day in and day out.
Looking at the players TFC have had to do without (and Seba not scoring for 8! games), there was the potential for a complete disaster.
How the manager gets hardly any credit for guiding them through that, and kept them in a position to now be a point out of 1st, kinda baffles me......

[ensco]

Kurt, most of my "fallacies" (ex the one about Vanney/Bez already being gone) are pretty widely held opinions, which facts won't prove or disprove. I think calling them fallacies or bias is wrong.

I will spare you (and me!) the back and forth. I gave my reasoning on all ex the 2015 performance, won't repeat myself.

I suspect you'll be taking all this up with Manning in due course.

[KurtLarSUN]

Kurt, most of my "fallacies" (ex the one about Vanney/Bez already being gone) are pretty widely held opinions, which facts won't prove or disprove. I think calling them fallacies or bias is wrong.

I will spare you (and me!) the back and forth. I gave my reasoning on all ex the 2015 performance, won't repeat myself.

I suspect you'll be taking all this up with Manning in due course.

Widely held beliefs can still be wrong.

And the fact of the matter is TFC's management group got Toronto FC to the playoffs last year.

This year, they're almost certain to at least host a playoff game.

So, objectively speaking, from the end of 2014 to now, Toronto FC has:

1) Signed the best player in the league.
2) Made the playoffs for the first time (and come within a fraction of finishing top three in the East).
3) And, now, are very likely to host a playoff game and finish with their best record all-time amid having the best defence in the East.

You had stated you were just looking for improvement and hadn't seen any.

If that's not improvement from the end of 2014 (when the team was a dumpster fire) then I don't know what is.

I don't think the above analysis is subjective. I think those three points are basically objective facts.

After two years, the team is now fully Vanney's. And it's a pretty good team.

[Oldtimer]

Vanney got the job without much (any?) relevant experience. That's not his fault, but that doesn't matter either.

To your credit ensco, you are consistent, and you don't disappear when the team does well.

I think there was some "transference" with many from Ryan Nelsen, who truly had zero experience.

Let's compare Greg Vanney's experience when he started first team management vs. Frank Yallop's vs. Bruce Arena's:

Greg Vanney
Director Soccer Operations Grande Sports World (2 years)
RSL Academy Director (3 years)
Chivas USA Assistant Coach (1 year)
TFC Academy Directory (1 year)

Frank Yallop
Generation Addidas (Project 40) Youth coach (1 year)
Tampa Bay Mutiny Assistant coach (1 year)
DC United Assistant coach (1 year)

Bruce Arena
University lacrosse coach (1 year)
University part-time lacrosse coach, part time soccer coach (7 years)
University soccer coach (18 years)

Frank Yallop had considerably less experience than Greg Vanney. Bruce Arena had lots of years, but he only had experience at an NCAA level (quite a few steps below MLS, or even USL) -- by your definition that could hardly be called "relevant" experience.

Most other MLS coaches (I think an exception would be Sigi Schmidt) have even less experience when they start first team coaching.

I think I see a double-standard where Vanney has supposedly no "relevant" experience which isn't true.

[KurtLarSUN]

To your credit ensco, you are consistent, and you don't disappear when the team does well.

I think there was some "transference" with many from Ryan Nelsen, who truly had zero experience.

Let's compare Greg Vanney's experience when he started first team management vs. Frank Yallop's vs. Bruce Arena's:

Greg Vanney
Director Soccer Operations Grande Sports World (2 years)
RSL Academy Director (3 years)
Chivas USA Assistant Coach (1 year)
TFC Academy Directory (1 year)

Frank Yallop
Generation Addidas (Project 40) Youth coach (1 year)
Tampa Bay Mutiny Assistant coach (1 year)
DC United Assistant coach (1 year)

Bruce Arena
University lacrosse coach (1 year)
University part-time lacrosse coach, part time soccer coach (7 years)
University soccer coach (18 years)

Frank Yallop had considerably less experience than Greg Vanney. Bruce Arena had lots of years, but he only had experience at an NCAA level (quite a few steps below MLS, or even USL) -- by your definition that could hardly be called "relevant" experience.

Most other MLS coaches (I think an exception would be Sigi Schmidt) have even less experience when they start first team coaching.

I think I see a double-standard where Vanney has supposedly no "relevant" experience which isn't true.

Can I just add that playing experience is relevant experience...

[Ivy]

I'm still amazed we are where we are in the standings, and Canadian champs, considering Seba was impotent for 1/3 of the season, Jozy was out for half, and Bradley as well. Playing the reserve goalie probably cost us a few points, but I couldn't be happier about his performance.

[mistercorporate]

Vanney is also a certified FIFA coach, he is certified through the same school French League1 coaches train.

[Super]

Vanney has proven his worth in the old fashioned way: with results. I say we re-up his contract at the end of this season.

[ronzilla]

Dear lord..:facepalm:

[Red4ever]

This thread is sooooo tired.

[ensco]

So, objectively speaking, from the end of 2014 to now, Toronto FC has:

1) Signed the best player in the league.
2) Made the playoffs for the first time (and come within a fraction of finishing top three in the East).
3) And, now, are very likely to host a playoff game and finish with their best record all-time amid having the best defence in the East.



Point one has nothing to do with Vanney (or Bez). Point two is tough - equally easy to point out that the team really wasn't great.

I'd argue this isn't how Manning is going to evaluate Vanney, in fact, I don't think he's going to evaluate Vanney at all.

He'll evaluate Bez, and the question he'll be asking himself is: given that Bez started with a dumpster fire and $100M spent on three new stud players, how did he do?

If Bez stays, Bez will keep Vanney, sure. But if Manning concludes Bez didn't do enough, it's over for both of them.

[ag futbol]

"Given payroll" is a naive way of looking at an MLS roster.
The league's rules are competitively neutral. The salary cap ensures that.

Good grief. How exactly are these rules "neutral"?

In sports spending alone may not guarantee success but it has pretty consistently been shown to be a predictor of it over the long run. The expectations of a team with a high payroll to win is not unfounded.

[Ivy]

Good grief. How exactly are these rules "neutral"?

In sports spending alone may not guarantee success but it has pretty consistently been shown to be a predictor of it over the long run. The expectations of a team with a high payroll to win is not unfounded.
If it's spread out across the roster, sure.
If cbus go and sign Joe Hart for 30million a year, will their record be better? Doubt it.

[notthesun]

He'll evaluate Bez, and the question he'll be asking himself is: given that Bez started with a dumpster fire and $100M spent on three new stud players, how did he do?

If Bez stays, Bez will keep Vanney, sure. But if Manning concludes Bez didn't do enough, it's over for both of them.

I don't understand why you feel as though Manning may wrestle with the decision to keep Bez (or Vanney) when the team is performing very well and in all likelihood will finish the season with a first round playoff bye. If we finish top 2, Bez and Vanney did enough, full stop. And Manning is going to see it that way - this is the guy that kept the same coach during his entire tenure at RSL, who's preached stability since he arrived here, and who had the opportunity to clean house at the start of this year but decided against it. That's his MO - stick with what works. This is working, and if it continues working, Manning won't change a thing, nor should he.

[ag futbol]

If it's spread out across the roster, sure.
If cbus go and sign Joe Hart for 30million a year, will their record be better? Doubt it.
But at that point they've misspent their 30 million and they will rightfully come under criticism for not having spent that money properly.

Sure they could go out and spend it on a left back, a goal keeper, or a broken down DM CMNT regular but all else equal that money gives management a better shot at getting a difference maker vs. not having that money at all.

[Red4ever]

If we are ill prepared two years in a row for a playoff game, i'd consider that an indictment of his coaching tenure.

Mock the people who question Vanney all you want, but if you can't change tactics to succeed in a big game, you shouldn't be given a long leash. Would we end up with a worse coach? Perhaps, as Vanney is not terrible. But despite all of the success this season, I haven't seen anything that makes me confident in winning a game on the road in the playoffs.

[ensco]

I don't understand why you feel as though Manning may wrestle with the decision to keep Bez (or Vanney) when the team is performing very well and in all likelihood will finish the season with a first round playoff bye. If we finish top 2, Bez and Vanney did enough, full stop. And Manning is going to see it that way - this is the guy that kept the same coach during his entire tenure at RSL, who's preached stability since he arrived here, and who had the opportunity to clean house at the start of this year but decided against it. That's his MO - stick with what works. This is working, and if it continues working, Manning won't change a thing, nor should he.

This is the heart of the thing.

Bez and Vanney are both guys who didn't get this shot because they "deserved" it (Bez especially, I accept that Vanney looks like some other MLS coaches)

Manning will think hard about this because the mgmt/leadership team here is, in total, unusually junior. He didn't pick this route, and has to think very hard about making it his.

I doubt he will.

That is how I would bet it, anyway. I may not know soccer, but I have a passing familiarity with how suits think.

[Ivy]

Wait - so we win amway, get a home playoff date, and are awfully close to SS, but manning will get rid of Bez and Vanney cuz they're inexperienced? Or WERE inexperienced? I'm confused...

[ensco]

Wait - so we win amway, get a home playoff date, and are awfully close to SS, but manning will get rid of Bez and Vanney cuz they're inexperienced? Or WERE inexperienced? I'm confused...

Well, when you put it that way! ;-)

If we finish strong, then you are all probably right (same way MU did keep Casey)

But I just doubt we'll finish strong enough for that to happen.

Also, thanks to Kurt, appreciate you mixing it up with anonymous people who disagree, and have the luxury of throwing thunderbolts without owning the consequences.

[barticusz]

This is the heart of the thing.

Bez and Vanney are both guys who didn't get this shot because they "deserved" it (Bez especially, I accept that Vanney looks like some other MLS coaches)

Manning will think hard about this because the mgmt/leadership team here is, in total, unusually junior. He didn't pick this route, and has to think very hard about making it his.

I doubt he will.

That is how I would bet it, anyway. I may not know soccer, but I have a passing familiarity with how suits think.

Where is all this coming from? Who are you or I to judge if Bez deserved to be hired? Don't think either one of us sat in the interview or had the shortlist of candidates.

I don't mean to offend you but your posts are bordering on sounding hysterical. It appears you have a strong dislike of both Bez and Vanney and you're justifying it by coming up with conspiracies that have Manning not liking them either. Where you're getting this is beyond me.

Just enjoy the soccer! We're on one of our best runs in history and we've got a home stretch coming up. Should be fun.

[Ivy]

I have faith. 6 of the last 8 games are at home, and the teams we play will get more and more desperate for points. Defend well, and we'll be fine.

[notthesun]

This is the heart of the thing.

Bez and Vanney are both guys who didn't get this shot because they "deserved" it (Bez especially, I accept that Vanney looks like some other MLS coaches)

Manning will think hard about this because the mgmt/leadership team here is, in total, unusually junior. He didn't pick this route, and has to think very hard about making it his.

I doubt he will.

That is how I would bet it, anyway. I may not know soccer, but I have a passing familiarity with how suits think.

Even Bez, man. First thing Manning said was the defense needs to be improved, Bez made a bunch of defensive moves and we now have a top 3 defense in the league. Job done.

There's frankly nothing that should encourage Manning to change anything at the moment.

[TFC Tifoso]

This is the heart of the thing.

Bez and Vanney are both guys who didn't get this shot because they "deserved" it (Bez especially, I accept that Vanney looks like some other MLS coaches)

Manning will think hard about this because the mgmt/leadership team here is, in total, unusually junior. He didn't pick this route, and has to think very hard about making it his.

I doubt he will.

That is how I would bet it, anyway. I may not know soccer, but I have a passing familiarity with how suits think.

And for most on the "pro-Vanney" side the bolded part is basically the whole debate.
For me anyways, I find the narrative of the "anti-Vanney" crowd is to replace him with a "proven MLS coach with a track record".
I've pressed people a few times on a specific name and got crickets in return......fact is 2 coaches in NA fit that description.....Arena and Schmidt.
Now granted, Sigi was fired yesterday, but I have a hard time buying into the argument when people are essentially looking for a unicorn to replace him.

Any replacement will look close to how Vanney did when he first came in, but TFC is looking very good right now so why bother, is the debate from the "pro-Vanney" side.
Even I will say that if results start to slip, things will need to be evaluated, but things should stay as thay are for this year.


Well, when you put it that way! ;-)

If we finish strong, then you are all probably right (same way MU did keep Casey)

But I just doubt we'll finish strong enough for that to happen.

Also, thanks to Kurt, appreciate you mixing it up with anonymous people who disagree, and have the luxury of throwing thunderbolts without owning the consequences.

Yeah I agree.....big thanks to Kurt for coming on here to engage us!
I didn't agree with all he said (mostly past articles in The Sun regarding his positivity during the Paul Mariner era), but he comes on here to provide us insight and can certainly take it as well as he gives it.

[Initial B]

From what I've seen of Vanney so far, he is starting to make fewer tactical mistakes in player selection/substitution and better adjustments as the season has progressed. Honestly, I can only rate Kreis and Arena ahead of him in terms of coaching quality and they're not going anywhere. The other coaches all seem interchangeable at this point and won't get us anything better. He is good enough for the league in its current form and seems likely to continue improving as does the league quality over the next decade.

[ensco]

Where is all this coming from? Who are you or I to judge if Bez deserved to be hired? Don't think either one of us sat in the interview or had the shortlist of candidates.

I don't mean to offend you but your posts are bordering on sounding hysterical. It appears you have a strong dislike of both Bez and Vanney and you're justifying it by coming up with conspiracies that have Manning not liking them either. Where you're getting this is beyond me.

Just enjoy the soccer! We're on one of our best runs in history and we've got a home stretch coming up. Should be fun.

Not true. I don't think Bez is up to it, but Vanney, I am just not sure. I don't like that a neophyte got to appoint Vanney without a process, but I am very influenced by the morale point someone made a few posts big, that is a big positive for Vanney. Also Saturday's win was massive.

You think I'm inventing Manning's coolness towards these two?

Go look at Manning's public statements. For all of you satisfied with 2015, he was "embarrased". He has done nothing but say "we'll see" when talking about management, except for his off season handling of Vanney (with the 8 game clock), which was (i) incredibly rough, and (ii) something Bez, not Manning, should have been speaking to. Since then, pretty much nothing but crickets.

I am enjoying the soccer immensely btw. Don't worry.

[Oldtimer]

You think I'm inventing Manning's coolness towards these two?



You certainly aren't. He is quite non-committal.

[KurtLarSUN]

As this is a Vanney thread, I'll drop this here. Reached Vanney by phone last night.

http://www.torontosun.com/2016/08/22/giovinco-driven-to-win-the-mls-cup

[KurtLarSUN]

Not true. I don't think Bez is up to it, but Vanney, I am just not sure. I don't like that a neophyte got to appoint Vanney without a process, but I am very influenced by the morale point someone made a few posts big, that is a big positive for Vanney. Also Saturday's win was massive.

You think I'm inventing Manning's coolness towards these two?

Go look at Manning's public statements. For all of you satisfied with 2015, he was "embarrased". He has done nothing but say "we'll see" when talking about management, except for his off season handling of Vanney (with the 8 game clock), which was (i) incredibly rough, and (ii) something Bez, not Manning, should have been speaking to. Since then, pretty much nothing but crickets.

I am enjoying the soccer immensely btw. Don't worry.

Manning undoubtedly took a wait and see approach heading into 2016, which all new presidents do.
I wouldn't say he's "cool" towards them. That's simply made up at this point, from what I can tell.
Truth is, we don't really know what Manning is thinking.
What I do know is that Vanney is heading into the final year of his deal.

[KurtLarSUN]

Thanks. And, I'm always around to explain any of my positions that are confusing.

[Yohan]

From a philly blogger

http://www.brotherlygame.com/2016/8/22/12575998/philadelphia-union-toronto-fc-recap-analysis-giovinco-altidore?


7.) Reds menace - Perhaps the most fearsome unit in MLS is the Toronto FC (http://www.sbnation.com/soccer/mls/teams/toronto-fc) defense. While overshadowed constantly by the glitz and glamour of the Altidore - Giovinco show, this Toronto defense is one of the best in MLS, and they showed how in the second half. The Union dominated possession in the second half, and took a lot of shots at Alex Bono, but most were poor quality shots that made for easy saves or to make people holding beer in the River End have to watch out for screamers heading their way. Toronto knew the Union was going to come at them with a lot of offensive firepower, and TFC bunkered and smothered the Union. Even in the .gif above you can see how many men in white are back defending (seven behind the ball at the start). Down one was okay, but down two to this unit and there was no shot.
Philly is not a weak team offensively.

[Richard]

I would resign Vanney on another two year deal, I think he has grown a lot as a manager and has shown to be flexible and pragmatic when needed. Its refreshing to see him change tactics and formation(3 at the back) instead of hammering away at one way to play like in the past with Preki/Winter/Marinier.

After the San Jose game I was seriously concerned but now I'm convinced he has what it takes to be a very good MLS coach/manager, the team could have flopped after the SJ game like TFC teams of past but we showed character in returning to form. A part of that is Giovinco taking the team on his back, but I think what Vanney did best was prepare the team mentally and tactically after the debacle.

I think taking our team through the home schedule with injuries to manage, rotating players, and getting guys fit at the same time showed a lot of maturity as a manager.

He isn't perfect, and the team still needs work on breaking a bunkering team down, but I'm in full support of him.

[jabbronies]

Vanney's biggest downfall are his substitutions. He can set a game up and have it run, but when it comes time to change up the tempo - this is where he fails. That alone is not a good enough reason to not re-sign him.

I also think that people who use the argument - "well, it's "so and so player" that makes him look good, so you can't really give him credit for the positive results" - have no real point to make against Vanney so they revert to giving credit to everyone except him.

Also - I don't get why Bez is not up to the job...Isn't he the one who helped build this current roster? brought in guys like Drew Moor, Steven Beitashour, Will Johnson, Marky Delgado? Was part of the team that brokered the Defoe for Altidore swap?

[ManUtd4ever]

I don't understand why you feel as though Manning may wrestle with the decision to keep Bez (or Vanney) when the team is performing very well and in all likelihood will finish the season with a first round playoff bye. If we finish top 2, Bez and Vanney did enough, full stop. And Manning is going to see it that way - this is the guy that kept the same coach during his entire tenure at RSL, who's preached stability since he arrived here, and who had the opportunity to clean house at the start of this year but decided against it. That's his MO - stick with what works. This is working, and if it continues working, Manning won't change a thing, nor should he.

I don't think our position in the standings will be the determining factor, even if we earn a first round bye. If we can't win our opening series in the playoffs, their jobs could very well be in jeopardy.

There are mitigating factors such as the health of our starting lineup, but this club needs to take the next step in order for the season to truly be deemed a success.

[Pint]

If you change coaches you need to build a team to fit that coaches style, which could take a couple transfer windows. Why make a change now when we are just starting to see the fruits of the labour these guys have put in?

[OgtheDim]

I want Manning to be non-committal. I want him to always be ready if need be to make a decision based on whether its in the best interests of the franchise to keep this GM or that coach. That's why you get a President - to be the keeper of the overall vision both in terms of on field and off field. Even with a new contract or a contract extension, anybody can be fired. If the vision of how TFC should play is solid, then getting rid of a coach or GM shouldn't mean as much upheaval as we have seen in the past. There is some upheaval because GM's and coaches have different ideas how to get that vision done. But it shouldn't be the revolving door we had for 8+ seasons.

[CBTFC]

And now TFC top the MLS Power Rankings...it's time we band together, storm BMO Field and demand Vanney's resignation!!!

http://www.mlssoccer.com/post/2016/08/23/mls-power-rankings-week-24-seattle-force-their-way-top-10

[Canary10]

And now TFC top the MLS Power Rankings...it's time we band together, storm BMO Field and demand Vanney's resignation!!!

http://www.mlssoccer.com/post/2016/08/23/mls-power-rankings-week-24-seattle-force-their-way-top-10

Wow that's cool. Doesn't mean much, but I like to see it.

[CBTFC]

why are you so quiet over there...

;)

[Oldtimer]

why are you so quiet over there...

;)

Odd, isn't it?

[barticusz]

Anyone hear Mannings interview around the 30th minute? I wonder what his comments were and how they relate to some people's opinion of him and his view of the management.

Anyways.. just another ROAD win.. no big deal. Switched 3 starters out... used fresh legs... changed formation... got a super sub goal... ........FIRST IN EAST.

Let's blow it up and start all over because it took too long, management is inexperienced, and we're spending too much on terrible players.

THIS is why you give your management team 3 years to prove themselves... let them build a roster they want and you'll be able to see if they're successful or not.

[mistercorporate]

#VanneyOut, you haven't won the Club World Cup yet? You bastard!

[mistercorporate]

#IsquishYourHead

[Ivy]

#VanneyOut, you haven't won the Club World Cup yet? You bastard!
That's next year.

[OgtheDim]

I still remember the time about 3 years ago when Vancouver was marketing their Voyageurs semi match with us as "the road to the Club World Championship starts here" complete with pictures of Messi et al.

[Oldtimer]

I'm impressed with how Vanney has managed Altidore. The timing of the substitution in the Orlando match was perfect.

More impressive has been the youth. He was able to field a squad with a lot of young players and win.

Resting both starting fullbacks was a calculated risk and nearly bit TFC, but worked in the end.

[Areathrasher]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YeQTTkTSe5w

Having watched the end of the video, i'll now be referring to Vanney as Fuckin Vanney :lol:

[Kamp Berg]

I'm impressed with how Vanney has managed Altidore. The timing of the substitution in the Orlando match was perfect.

More impressive has been the youth. He was able to field a squad with a lot of young players and win.

Resting both starting fullbacks was a calculated risk and nearly bit TFC, but worked in the end.

I understand why Vanney chooses to field Williams, Hagglund, and Moor in the back three but I think it looked way better with Zavaleta on the field. There's just not enough football smarts in Williams and Hagglund to have them on at the same time (only referring to a back three defence).

[Yohan]

more stats and stuff

https://public.tableau.com/profile/fennsk#!/vizhome/SoccerTables/MLS

[ensco]

He and Bez are forcing Manning's hand. I am coming around too. We didn't look good but results are results.

We always dropped points in games like these last two historically.

[Areathrasher]

Speaking of Manning....

Anyone got a recap of his interview during the game last night?

[ronzilla]

He and Bez are forcing Manning's hand. I am coming around too. We didn't look good but results are results.

We always dropped points in games like these last two historically.

The " We didn't look good " part was all on vanney. The brilliant assists from Seba that sent 2 players on a breakaway was the difference.

[molenshtain]

The " We didn't look good " part was all on vanney. The brilliant assists from Seba that sent 2 players on a breakaway was the difference.

What team do you watch regularly pull off pretty wins on the road? Road points are road points. We played the best game possible with the players at our disposal.

[Yohan]

The " We didn't look good " part was all on vanney. The brilliant assists from Seba that sent 2 players on a breakaway was the difference.

No credit for pulling off a goal scorer Ricketts for Altidore once he saw that Ricketts wasn't doing much after the goal and an early sub too? A lot of managers would have sat on a goal scorer a while longer and hope that things work out.

[KRO]

Speaking of Manning....

Anyone got a recap of his interview during the game last night?

I wasn't paying much attention but:
He was generally happy with the way the game was going
I think there was a discussion about the fact that we had 4 draft picks starting and how a combination of draft picks, academy and good trades produces a good team.
Looking forward to the "401 Derby". Get there in time for the Anthem. When he hears us sing the Anthem he almost feels Canadian.

[MartinUtd]

I hope Vanney gives Williams something to think about after that atrocious marking job. Otherwise I'd say Vanney has done a good job this past week. I figure I'd come in here and say that since I'm one of the bigger skeptics.

It'll be interesting to see how Cooper is introduced to the team.

[Areathrasher]

I wasn't paying much attention but:
He was generally happy with the way the game was going
I think there was a discussion about the fact that we had 4 draft picks starting and how a combination of draft picks, academy and good trades produces a good team.
Looking forward to the "401 Derby". Get there in time for the Anthem. When he hears us sing the Anthem he almost feels Canadian.

Cheers

[ronzilla]

No credit for pulling off a goal scorer Ricketts for Altidore once he saw that Ricketts wasn't doing much after the goal and an early sub too? A lot of managers would have sat on a goal scorer a while longer and hope that things work out.

I think Jozy was coming on, regardless of Ricketts performance.

[Yohan]

I think Jozy was coming on, regardless of Ricketts performance.

Or not if vanney was concerned about jozy pulling a hammy on that shitty turf. If jozy didn't start, I think Vanney wouldn't have risked jozy if tfc was winning and playing well

[ensco]

I don't know how many TFC teams I have seen that "played" better but lost.

If it was a one off, I would feel it was more of the story, but this team is getting points when it plays well, and when it doesn't. What more is there?

Hope we're not peaking too soon and have some strategic adjustments in reserve.

[stegosaurus]

I understand why Vanney chooses to field Williams, Hagglund, and Moor in the back three but I think it looked way better with Zavaleta on the field. There's just not enough football smarts in Williams and Hagglund to have them on at the same time (only referring to a back three defence).

Williams hasn't really been bad, but this back line was down to squad rotation. Morrow has been fairly dreadful all year too, and Beita has had issues with injuries before he even joined the team. That we won the game despite some shocking moments shows how far the team has come, including playing young guys or depth players in formations that would have been suicide before.

[OgtheDim]

Next time somebody says in here that Vanney is too quiet and cerebral and doesn't connect with the players, I'm just going to point to the last scene in this video and tell them to "just keep on ****ing going".


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YeQTTkTSe5w

[notthesun]

Next time somebody says in here that Vanney is too quiet and cerebral and doesn't connect with the players, I'm just going to point to the last scene in this video and tell them to "just keep on ****ing going".

And Nelsen was seen as a fiery leader that could get anyone going, but look how that turned out.

Truth is we don't know what the locker room is like so it's mostly pointless to speculate.

[Areathrasher]

And Nelsen was seen as a fiery leader that could get anyone going, but look how that turned out.

Truth is we don't know what the locker room is like so it's mostly pointless to speculate.

Agreed. Hasn't stopped people from casting their own aspersions though http://forum.football365.com/images/smilies/icon_rolleyes.gif

[OgtheDim]

That's part of my point.

We don't know.

At all.

So stop trying to judge him based on that and lets focus on the results.

I got issues with his subs. I think he also can't get across his ideas to his forwards all the time. But we are playing a defined style, taught well, with a good shape and he is bringing along the young guys. So don't give me this "he can't connect" stuff. He was a USMNT for Pete's sake, only not going to a World Cup due to an injury. He's not some guy a few years removed from making photocopies.

If it all turns to dust in the next few weeks, he'll be gone. I trust Manning to do that if need be. In the meantime, he's here.


And he's right in that video, this team isn't where it wants to go yet. And there are tough challenges to come, including a derby match and don't for a second think that the Impact will not be up for that one. Good that he recognises that.

[mistercorporate]

The only thing the Impact is dreaming about right now is to pull the rug under our feet and undermine our ambitions. They're salivating but we have the quality to blunt their aspirations.

[notthesun]

I was actually agreeing with you Og (reading my post again I can see how it could be taken the other way). I think it's silly to assume Vanney can't motivate his players because he's soft spoken in interviews just like it was silly to think Nelsen was great at is because he's a rougher personality. I've seen similar comments made about Bradley, that he's not a leader of men because he comes across as calculating rather than passionate whenever we see him speak, but I don't put stock in that either.

[Redcoe15]

Here's a suggestion for Vanney:

LEARN HOW TO TAKE FULL FUCKING ADVANTAGE OF BEING AT LEAST A MAN DOWN, O-FUCKING-KAY???!!!!! :mad5:

[CBTFC]

Ok, I def agree that some subs could've been made earlier, like Ricketts coming in.MUCH earlier than the 70' minute.

Yet, at the end of it, can't blame him that the players couldn't figure it out.

You're up a man for 45+ minutes, figure it out guys.

[sn0re]

...here we go again

[ronzilla]

Where's all the vanney supporters hiding now?

What a fuckin embarrassment losing to a 10 man team at home, and to boot, losing to montreal of all teams.

#vanneyout #getthefuckoutnow

[Oldtimer]

Where's all the vanney supporters hiding now?

What a fuckin embarrassment losing to a 10 man team at home, and to boot, losing to montreal of all teams.

#vanneyout #getthefuckoutnow

Where were you when the team was winning?

This loss was gutting, but apart from some minor things the game plan was sound. This one was on the players.

[Red CB Toronto]

Where were you when the team was winning?

This loss was gutting, but apart from some minor things the game plan was sound. This one was on the players.

To me, the just simply don't know how to play a man up, it throws them off for some reason. Just look tonight, especially after they went down, they did not push the play uo, they would go wide and lob the ball in, with very little success.

[ronzilla]

Final
Toronto FC 0
Montreal Impact 1 - 1 Red Card

Final
Toronto FC 1
Houston Dynamo 1 - 1 Red Card

Final
Toronto FC 1
San Jose 2 - 2 Red Cards

Final
Toronto FC 0
NY Red Bulls 3 - 1 Red Card

Final
Toronto FC 3
Vancouver 4 - 1 Red Card

Final
Toronto FC 0
Sporting Kansas 1 - 1 Red Card

[TMAN80]

Although I don't necessarily dislike Vanney, this outcome after the red card was very predictable, and the result was exactly what I would have expected, solely based on his substitution choices, the their timing. Completely baffling at best.

In my opinion, Vanney either doesn't watch the clock, or just can't make a decision when it comes to subs and in the end waits way too long, does nothing at all, or chooses the wrong guy.

The Endoh sub was one of the worst I have ever seen. We should have been trying to creatively break Montreal's defence, and instead we go for 40 mins of crosses(like our other two man up games recently) with the same predictable outcome.

The other subs were just too late, and Cooper would have been a much better choice(whether we have seen him or not) than Rickets for unlocking a defensive formation.

Very poor choices overall.

[CBTFC]

I believe constructive, valid criticism is deserved in terms of the subs...but numbers don't lie, we absolutely SUCK when we're a man up. What's Vanney supposed to do, gear up and get on the field himself to try and score??

This is on the players. They need to figure it out, especially when you're a man up and have complete control.

Though I know all the Vanney haters will ignore all that, lol.

[OgtheDim]

..

The Endoh sub was one of the worst I have ever seen. We should have been trying to creatively break Montreal's defence, and instead we go for 40 mins of crosses(like our other two man up games recently) with the same predictable outcome.

....

From my angle in 221 Endoh was more effective then Beitashour at getting in and getting crosses close to players.

BTW, Montreal brought on a sub (Salazar) just to deal with him.

Cheyrou over Cooper likely is due to match fitness.

Ricketts was always coming in.


Too late. Possibly but the team that was there before Seba went down was in with some good chances and was trying to play the ball through the middle rather then just crossing.

[Oldtimer]

From my angle in 221 Endoh was more effective then Beitashour at getting in and getting crosses close to players.



It was clear to me in 114 as well.

[OgtheDim]

What was needed was for Endoh to take a shot or two from those tough angles just to force their wide mids out a bit more. Actually, in general, that was an issue last night - not enough shots taken from distance to force them out.

[Hamilton_Red]

Og - that's a crucial issue and Vanney pointed it out no shooting threat from our midfield. The way you beat teams who bunker is with a goal threat from distance. Bradley - osario - Johnson - no them save maybe Cherou have a shot from outside the box.

[ensco]

The way to stop TFC is to chop Gio down.

Vanney has two months to find a real Plan B.