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View Full Version : 2016 - What Formation Should TFC Play



OgtheDim
01-22-2016, 09:25 AM
Now that the roster seems relatively set, it seems everybody wants to discuss the balance/formation of TFC. I heard that discussed in 3 podcasts this week - the TFC one, the TSN one (ugh, am I ever getting tired of that lots disdain for money being spent) and the MLS interview with Vanney yesterday.




SOOOOOOooooooooooooooooo...what do people think?


For starters, lets just throw this suggestion out there

https://twitter.com/KurtLarSUN/status/690525575451140096

Areathrasher
01-22-2016, 09:41 AM
I did this one before some signings were made. So fill in Johnson/Cheyrou for the DM or slot one of them in for Osorio. Have a 3 man mid unit like Floro plays and give Giovinco a free role on the left to cut in and do what he wants. I'm not 100% it would work but i'd like to see it given a shot.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CWhUW5bWUAA_ZV6.jpg

PopePouri
01-22-2016, 09:45 AM
http://sharemytactics.com/60025/Toronto-FC-2016-formation-tactics.png (http://sharemytactics.com/60025/)

A few notes:

1) I think we need to give Oso a run of games at no. 10. Let me do what he does well, pass and combine with the front two and link midfield to forward. Hopefully he can sort out his finishing as well.
2) I think Bradley can do more as a shuttler not as 10. He can drive forward from deep, maybe drill some 60 yard balls to the front two. I'd also see him drop deep to combine with Cheyrou.
3) Johnson is familiar with the diamond after his time with RSL. I can see him being a much more north/south player but still able to cover a lot of ground.
4) Both Johnson and Bradley will have to do the heavy running for Cheyrou, but unlike last year, they'll be more tactically aware than others that were put there (Creavalle, Warner).
5) I see Beitashour getting forward the most as a FB. Morrow being a little more stay-at-home.
6) Width would come from Giovinco (peeling out to the left as he does), and Beitashour overlapping on the right.

Mateo1985
01-22-2016, 09:59 AM
This will probably be the biggest question of the season. I hope it's not way over Vanney's qualifications to figure that thing out. One thing for sure though. This season will really tell who Vanney is as a couch.

ensco
01-22-2016, 10:04 AM
The Guardiola 0-10-0 bumblebee

molenshtain
01-22-2016, 10:04 AM
I think it's pretty evident we'll be playing a diamond. Sub in our new Defensive signings in their obvious positions and Johnson in for Warner and it's pretty much the same lineup as last season.

PopePouri
01-22-2016, 10:19 AM
the TSN one (ugh, am I ever getting tired of that lots disdain for money being spent)


I stopped listening to that Whitecaps podcast a long time ago.

A Stick
01-22-2016, 10:37 AM
Altidore
Giovinco Bradley Osario
Cheyrou Johnson
Morrow Morrow Perquis Beitashour
Irwin

A Stick
01-22-2016, 10:38 AM
TFC can't play a diamond midfield with Cheyrou covering the back 4. He is simply too slow.

molenshtain
01-22-2016, 10:42 AM
TFC can't play a diamond midfield with Cheyrou covering the back 4. He is simply to slow.

If the D is sorted out and the guys in front of him are doing enough running it should be fine. It would be worse to ask him to play in a double pivot. That's significantly more ground to cover.

OgtheDim
01-22-2016, 11:08 AM
Based on the interview with Vanney on MLS, the midfield will have more defined roles then last season. I also note that Bez specifically mentionned the word Defensive Midfielder when discussing how our defence would be fixed.

I think/hope one of either Cheyrou or Johnson is going to be nailed in front of the backline.

Red I
01-22-2016, 11:25 AM
This will probably be the biggest question of the season. I hope it's not way over Vanney's qualifications to figure that thing out. One thing for sure though. This season will really tell who Vanney is as a couch.

Yeah... Is he a single, loveseat or 3 person? Is he genuine leather, or that crappy bonded leather stuff?

Graeme
01-22-2016, 11:29 AM
Yeah, what if it is Johnson "nailed to the backline"?

------------------------Irwin------------------------
--Beitashour---Moor------Perquis----Morrow-----
------------------Johnson--------------------------
--Cheyrou-------------------------Osorio----------
------------------Bradley--------------------------
----Altidore----------------Giovinco--------------

molenshtain
01-22-2016, 11:30 AM
I doubt it is. ^ Cheyrou can't play anywhere else at this point because his speed limits his ability to play any other role but DM competently.

ManUtd4ever
01-22-2016, 11:45 AM
Logically, it makes the most sense to play a diamond with Cheyrou as the DM, as others have mentioned. It's not ideal given his age, but that's the only way to allow every one else to play to their strengths.

[NBF]
01-22-2016, 12:47 PM
5-3-2:


---------------------Irwin---------------------
---------------------Bono---------------------
----------------------------------------------
--------Moor------Hagglund----Perquis---------
-------Simonin-----Williams----Zavaleta--------
-----------------------------------------------
Beitashour------------------------------Morrow
Bloom----------------------------------Morgan
Delgado------Bradley-----Johnson--------Lovitz
-------------Warner-----Cheyrou--------------
----------------------------------------------
------------------Giovinco--------------------
------------------Osorio----------------------
----------------------------------------------
----------Altidore---------Moore--------------
----------Gomez---------Hamilton-------------

Initial B
01-22-2016, 12:52 PM
Vanney is going to need more than one formation. I see him developing two default formations: The main formation will be the diamond 4-4-2 PopePouri mentioned in his post. That seems to be the most natural formation with the players available using the tactics he outlined. I think the secondary formation will be Areathrasher's 4-3-3 with Johnston as the DM and a fast right winger. I imagine Vanney will use that one when he wants to play a fast game with pace, pressing and a crowded midfield. I can also see Vanney developing a 4-4-1-1 counterattacking game when they are overmatched talent-wise and play a defensive park-the-bus style while players are missing in June. Center Mids would be a pairing of Bradley, Chyrou, Johnson, Osorio or Warner (depending on available players) with the kids (two of Mannella/Lovitz/Delgado/Chapman) out wide. In front of them would be one of Bradley/Gomez/Osorio/Seba tucked behind Altidore/Gomez/Hamilton/Moore.

<Edit: Although now I see it, NBF's 3-5-2 looks like another good alternate look with the players we have, but I get the feeling we won't see that played as Vanney's prime goal in the first 10 games is to get the regular back four all on the same page defensively. I guess the main point is, TFC now has the players and depth to be more than a one-trick pony. It's up to Vanney to utilize them. If he can't do that by July, then he should be gone to have a chance to salvage the season.>

vortexdr
01-22-2016, 01:26 PM
;1778782']5-3-2:


---------------------Irwin---------------------
---------------------Bono---------------------
----------------------------------------------
--------Moor------Hagglund----Perquis---------
-------Simonin-----Williams----Zavaleta--------
-----------------------------------------------
Beitashour------------------------------Morrow
Bloom----------------------------------Morgan
Delgado------Bradley-----Johnson--------Lovitz
-------------Warner-----Cheyrou--------------
----------------------------------------------
------------------Giovinco--------------------
------------------Osorio----------------------
----------------------------------------------
----------Altidore---------Moore--------------
----------Gomez---------Hamilton-------------

You need exceptional wing backs to make a 5-3-2 work....otherwise there is just no width....i sure hope Vanney doesnt attempt a 5-3-2 with MLS talent....

molenshtain
01-22-2016, 01:28 PM
You need exceptional wing backs to make a 5-3-2 work....otherwise there is just no width....i sure hope Vanney doesnt attempt a 5-3-2 with MLS talent....

what about the Revs teams that went to four straight finals using a 3-5-2?

gdg_9
01-22-2016, 01:30 PM
;1778782']5-3-2:


---------------------Irwin---------------------
---------------------Bono---------------------
----------------------------------------------
--------Moor------Hagglund----Perquis---------
-------Simonin-----Williams----Zavaleta--------
-----------------------------------------------
Beitashour------------------------------Morrow
Bloom----------------------------------Morgan
Delgado------Bradley-----Johnson--------Lovitz
-------------Warner-----Cheyrou--------------
----------------------------------------------
------------------Giovinco--------------------
------------------Osorio----------------------
----------------------------------------------
----------Altidore---------Moore--------------
----------Gomez---------Hamilton-------------


This formation with our roster definitely intrigues me!

Although I'd tweak it a bit...

--------------------Irwin-------------------
-------Hagglund - Moor - Perquis-------
----(Zavaleta)-(Simonin)-(Williams)----
Beitashour-------------------------Morrow
(Bloom) ------------------------- (Morgan)
-------------Bradley - Johnson------------
-----------(Cheyrou)- (Warner)----------
-------------------Osorio-------------------
-----------------(Delgado)-----------------
------------------------------Giovinco------
------------------------------(Gomez)------
----------Altidore---------------------------
----------(Moore)

Ivy
01-22-2016, 01:31 PM
Yeah... Is he a single, loveseat or 3 person? Is he genuine leather, or that crappy bonded leather stuff?
LMAO. Stop it man. LOLOLOL.

Lennon
01-22-2016, 01:37 PM
http://sharemytactics.com/60025/Toronto-FC-2016-formation-tactics.png (http://sharemytactics.com/60025/)

A few notes:

1) I think we need to give Oso a run of games at no. 10. Let me do what he does well, pass and combine with the front two and link midfield to forward. Hopefully he can sort out his finishing as well.
2) I think Bradley can do more as a shuttler not as 10. He can drive forward from deep, maybe drill some 60 yard balls to the front two. I'd also see him drop deep to combine with Cheyrou.
3) Johnson is familiar with the diamond after his time with RSL. I can see him being a much more north/south player but still able to cover a lot of ground.
4) Both Johnson and Bradley will have to do the heavy running for Cheyrou, but unlike last year, they'll be more tactically aware than others that were put there (Creavalle, Warner).
5) I see Beitashour getting forward the most as a FB. Morrow being a little more stay-at-home.
6) Width would come from Giovinco (peeling out to the left as he does), and Beitashour overlapping on the right.

Agree with this 100%. Was about to post the same thing.

Cheyrou playing the Pirlo role and Bradley/Johnson playing box to box providing defensive cover and offensive support. Oso finally in his preferred position after being played out wide many time over the years.

OgtheDim
01-22-2016, 02:05 PM
... Oso finally in his preferred position after being played out wide many time over the years.

With the added benefit of Oso never missing games for internationals... :sad:

notthesun
01-22-2016, 02:18 PM
Osorio just produced his best MLS season at LM. Is CM/CAM even his best position anymore? He looks damn good coming off the wing and combining with our middle players.

bimmer
01-22-2016, 02:30 PM
A few notes:

1) I think we need to give Oso a run of games at no. 10. Let me do what he does well, pass and combine with the front two and link midfield to forward. Hopefully he can sort out his finishing as well.
2) I think Bradley can do more as a shuttler not as 10. He can drive forward from deep, maybe drill some 60 yard balls to the front two. I'd also see him drop deep to combine with Cheyrou.
3) Johnson is familiar with the diamond after his time with RSL. I can see him being a much more north/south player but still able to cover a lot of ground.
4) Both Johnson and Bradley will have to do the heavy running for Cheyrou, but unlike last year, they'll be more tactically aware than others that were put there (Creavalle, Warner).
5) I see Beitashour getting forward the most as a FB. Morrow being a little more stay-at-home.
6) Width would come from Giovinco (peeling out to the left as he does), and Beitashour overlapping on the right.

Completely agree with this. That is our optimal lineup going into the season imo, provided no other major moves are made. Love me some Bradley but he has no business playing as our most forward midfielder.

molenshtain
01-22-2016, 02:38 PM
Completely agree with this. That is our optimal lineup going into the season imo, provided no other major moves are made. Love me some Bradley but he has no business playing as our most forward midfielder.


well he does. He was real good in that role last season. Just because he's not a natural 10# type playmaker doesn't mean he doesn't bring other qualities to that role.

jloome
01-22-2016, 02:53 PM
well he does. He was real good in that role last season. Just because he's not a natural 10# type playmaker doesn't mean he doesn't bring other qualities to that role.

I suspect, given how well he performed at it in Portland, we'll see Will Johnson as the defensive midfielder. Cheyrou faded so badly last season I wouldn't be surprised if he wasn't a depth option at this point.

molenshtain
01-22-2016, 03:06 PM
I suspect, given how well he performed at it in Portland, we'll see Will Johnson as the defensive midfielder. Cheyrou faded so badly last season I wouldn't be surprised if he wasn't a depth option at this point.

You don't think that had to do with us moving away from the diamond, which gave him more responsibilities that he couldn't handle because of his speed? give him a more defined role with less running to do and I think that set's him up well.

OgtheDim
01-22-2016, 03:14 PM
Cheyrou is the most likely player to be nailed to a DM position.

The question is whether Cheyrou will be a dead parrot or pining for the fjords.

CBTFC
01-22-2016, 05:02 PM
we're certainly entering the corridor of uncertainty when it comes to our formation.

Auzzy
01-22-2016, 05:29 PM
This will probably be the biggest question of the season. I hope it's not way over Vanney's qualifications to figure that thing out. One thing for sure though. This season will really tell who Vanney is as a couch.


Yeah... Is he a single, loveseat or 3 person? Is he genuine leather, or that crappy bonded leather stuff?


LMAO. Stop it man. LOLOLOL.


Well obviously it will be a Miami Vice couch...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kZu5iDTtNg0

jloome
01-23-2016, 12:07 AM
You don't think that had to do with us moving away from the diamond, which gave him more responsibilities that he couldn't handle because of his speed? give him a more defined role with less running to do and I think that set's him up well.

Cheyrou can't cover enough ground in a middle two, let alone a diamond, where he's supposed to be mobile enough to cut off passing lanes as well as breakup play. He's a backup at this point. He's a fine player but he just doesn't cover ground. Johnson has an engine.

I wouldn't be surprised to see us play in a 4-2-4 (wide diamond), with inverted wingers and Bradley next to Johnson in the middle. They'll play Bradley as the man going forward, Johnson going back. I'm basing that on Vanney saying to ExtraTime he wants more defined roles in the midfield and that he has discussed a specific role at length with Bradley. Osorio would play one wing, and the Japanese kid would platoon with Lovitz at the other. Cheyrou would be Bradley's backup, and Collin Warner would backup Johnson.

molenshtain
01-23-2016, 10:41 AM
Cheyrou can't cover enough ground in a middle two, let alone a diamond, where he's supposed to be mobile enough to cut off passing lanes as well as breakup play. He's a backup at this point. He's a fine player but he just doesn't cover ground. Johnson has an engine.

I wouldn't be surprised to see us play in a 4-2-4 (wide diamond), with inverted wingers and Bradley next to Johnson in the middle. They'll play Bradley as the man going forward, Johnson going back. I'm basing that on Vanney saying to ExtraTime he wants more defined roles in the midfield and that he has discussed a specific role at length with Bradley. Osorio would play one wing, and the Japanese kid would platoon with Lovitz at the other. Cheyrou would be Bradley's backup, and Collin Warner would backup Johnson.


Don't you think the anchor in a diamond would have a lot less running to do, especially if the midfield and even the forwards were instructed to do even more running to compensate?

You can't play a wide diamond in modern football. gives up way too much space in the middle of the park.

ManUtd4ever
01-23-2016, 11:37 AM
In all honesty, Bradley is probably best suited to play the DM role compared to anyone else on the roster, but his overall skillset would be wasted if he didn't have the freedom to move forward. We really need to address that postition in order to cement our starting lineup.

jloome
01-23-2016, 12:28 PM
Don't you think the anchor in a diamond would have a lot less running to do, especially if the midfield and even the forwards were instructed to do even more running to compensate?

You can't play a wide diamond in modern football. gives up way too much space in the middle of the park.

The anchor in a wide diamond is effectively sweeping in front of the back line, trying to break up passing lanes and prevent overloads. But to coverpassing lanes, ala Alonso or Laba, you have to have really good side-to-side coverage, which means speed.

If you stick Cheyrou in that role he would be ineffectual.

I don't believe there's no formation you "can't play", short of a 2-3-5. They all require people to cover space. If you allow them the outside and clog the middle, a quality team switches approach ala Columbus.

molenshtain
01-23-2016, 01:43 PM
The anchor in a wide diamond is effectively sweeping in front of the back line, trying to break up passing lanes and prevent overloads. But to coverpassing lanes, ala Alonso or Laba, you have to have really good side-to-side coverage, which means speed.

If you stick Cheyrou in that role he would be ineffectual.

I don't believe there's no formation you "can't play", short of a 2-3-5. They all require people to cover space. If you allow them the outside and clog the middle, a quality team switches approach ala Columbus.

But there's been other players and other systems that have been effective in covering for a player with Cheyrou's type of skill set and limitations. the one everyone keeps bringing up is pirlo's last few years at Juve, but even closer to home there's Kreis's RSL teams. Beckerman was never very fast at all and even at 33 he continues to chug away at that position. Cheyrou would be playing an extreme version of Beckerman's role granted, but the guys in front of him are significantly better and more capable of an increased workload to compensate for Cheyrou's lack of mobility.

El Diego
01-25-2016, 04:48 PM
But there's been other players and other systems that have been effective in covering for a player with Cheyrou's type of skill set and limitations. the one everyone keeps bringing up is pirlo's last few years at Juve, but even closer to home there's Kreis's RSL teams. Beckerman was never very fast at all and even at 33 he continues to chug away at that position. Cheyrou would be playing an extreme version of Beckerman's role granted, but the guys in front of him are significantly better and more capable of an increased workload to compensate for Cheyrou's lack of mobility.

Gerrard at Liverpool is another recent example. Then you have guys like Busquets, Alonso, Pirlo, and Beckham who have played as the first midfielder, though they weren't in a diamond. Still, they're all slow players who rely much more on reading the game. Cheyrou is in the same mould. Him in a two man midfield would be much more ineffectual (less effectual?).

People are getting too caught up in the numbers when looking at a formation e.g. 4-1-2-1-2 (diamond) vs. 4-2-3-1. Sure in the latter Cheyrou has a partner beside him whereas in the former he's alone but the fact is he's closer to the defense in the diamond and has more insulation ahead of him.

trane
01-26-2016, 12:50 PM
http://sharemytactics.com/60025/Toronto-FC-2016-formation-tactics.png (http://sharemytactics.com/60025/)

A few notes:

1) I think we need to give Oso a run of games at no. 10. Let me do what he does well, pass and combine with the front two and link midfield to forward. Hopefully he can sort out his finishing as well.
2) I think Bradley can do more as a shuttler not as 10. He can drive forward from deep, maybe drill some 60 yard balls to the front two. I'd also see him drop deep to combine with Cheyrou.
3) Johnson is familiar with the diamond after his time with RSL. I can see him being a much more north/south player but still able to cover a lot of ground.
4) Both Johnson and Bradley will have to do the heavy running for Cheyrou, but unlike last year, they'll be more tactically aware than others that were put there (Creavalle, Warner).
5) I see Beitashour getting forward the most as a FB. Morrow being a little more stay-at-home.
6) Width would come from Giovinco (peeling out to the left as he does), and Beitashour overlapping on the right.

I like this, mainly because I think that Osario is best used as an AM. I would like an upgrade for the DM, I like Cheyrou, but someone younger and more physical/defensive would be good, to cover the back four.

C.Ronaldo
01-26-2016, 05:16 PM
I like this, mainly because I think that Osario is best used as an AM. I would like an upgrade for the DM, I like Cheyrou, but someone younger and more physical/defensive would be good, to cover the back four.

cheyrou is surrounded by athletisism , i think he will be okay. he is flanked by work horses and with good strong CBs behind him

JavierMartini
01-27-2016, 09:38 AM
We all dream of a team of sebbie g's

Blindside16
01-28-2016, 02:51 AM
I am almost certain that Vanney will stick with the 4-4-2 Diamond. What I am curious to see is how the plan on utilizing Altidore. They need to take advantage of his size and have him become more of an aerial threat inside the box rather than relying on him to try and create from open play. He simply does not have the same vision and skill set as other when it comes to moving up field.

Ivy
01-28-2016, 03:06 AM
4-4-1-1
Bradley and Johnson in the middle pulley.
Seba behind Jozy.

Itll be more like a 2-1-5-2 in the attack, with Oso and Delgado tucking in with Beita and Morrow on the wings.
And a 4-2-2-2 when defending, with both MB4 and Johnson playing DM.

burlington Red
01-28-2016, 07:41 AM
4-4-1-1 would my choice. I think we need to keep our formation very easy to follow initially due to new personnel settling in, and I honestly don't think we need to go too complicated. I know there are plenty of teams who are successful and employ all these very tactical astute formations, but then I look a team like Leceister who employ a simple 4-4-2, but where everyone knows there role and plays it perfectly. A lot rests on Bradley, he needs to be a lot more tactically disciplined this season, and I believe Vanney has already stated his role will be a lot more defined this season. His runs need to be more purposeful and not just for the sake of running.

notthesun
01-29-2016, 11:47 AM
Article on Mannella and Chapman (http://www.uslsoccer.com/ViewArticle.dbml?ATCLID=210672311&DB_OEM_ID=32800) has a little tidbit about Chapman moving out wide:


Chapman, who made nine appearances for TFC II in 2015, is learning a new role on the outside of midfield. Also a former PDL standout for K-W United FC, Chapman is looking to Columbus Crew SC midfielder Justin Meram and Paris Saint-Germain’s Javier Pastore as examples to follow, with both of those players having made the transition to the wing after starting their careers in more central roles.

He'll be competing mainly with Lovitz as a depth wide player I imagine.

Ajax TFC
01-29-2016, 12:33 PM
I think wide midfield is a good spot for him. I've mentioned before that I think he needs a more basic and defined role to be useful. I don't think he has the field awareness to play centrally. When he played there last year, he kept trying to occupy the same space as other players rather than say dropping back to find some space

PopePouri
02-07-2016, 05:54 AM
I'm stuck at work overnight and bored so I feel like rambling about how we might play.

So we're playing a 4-3-3 unless Vanney suddenly changes his mind again half way through preseason. Looking at the past couple of lineups, there's still a lot of questions about the depth chart particularly up front and who we sign in the next couple of weeks. One big observation is that Oso will have to be moved to the bench. Bradley, Johnson and Cheyrou will make up the starting midfield with Oso, Delgado and Warner as backup.

It looks like they're experimenting with Seba out wide on the left and through the middle. Seba through the middle plays as a false 9, dropping much deeper to create. There is then some interchange with the no. 10 (I assume being Delgado) to take up the space vacated based on the screenshot below.

Both of the two screenshots show Vanney wanting Endoh to create width based on positioning pretty much on the touchline. If Babouli plays, he will primarily operate inside, and will allow space for the fullback to overlap.

http://s7.postimg.org/fbao3x2e3/2016_formation_2.png

http://s27.postimg.org/k6j8wgtrn/2016_formation.png

Seba operating out wide will allow Altidore to operate in his natural position as a no. 9. The front three depth chart is still up in the air I think. Chapman is being converted to a winger but who starts out wide on the right against the Red Bulls? Endoh is straight of college and Gomez has been played primarily based as a no. 9. Most likely this will be answered in Florida.

http://s15.postimg.org/x4umvu32z/2016_formation_3.png

Initial B
02-07-2016, 02:51 PM
I bet they switch back to a 4-4-2 diamond when they get to Florida. We just might have seen the formation Vanney plans to use when TFC needs to play while the Copa, Euros and WC qualifiers are on.

OgtheDim
02-07-2016, 03:24 PM
I don't know man, Vanney has talked about his preference for the 4-3-3 since he came - he's just quite the pragmatist.