West Ham Forum's view on All-Star Game

[Lucky Strike]

http://www.kumb.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=104634&st=0&sk=t&sd=a

Since it's a 21 page thread, here are the highlights:

- They too perceive the turf as detrimental for the health of players.
- They vastly underestimate the MLS (that snob attitude we hear about).
- They liked the atmosphere (they recognize BMO as the best in North America).
- They hate Americans.
- They think North Americans are obsessed with statistics. That's probably true, I always get annoyed at how difficult it is to get a good/functional stats table for the EPL and Championship.
- A win was seen as crucial for some. They were worried that a loss would mean no end to the we-should-have-played-a-bigger-team-like-Liverpool argument. It is true, it sucked to get West Ham.

And most interestingly:

- They vehemently disagree that the All-Star team could compete in the EPL (a TV comentator on I forget which network believed they could). I personally genuinely think they could compete in the EPL and show well.
- Some West Ham fans tried to pull a lucky loonie trick by placing a one-pound coin at one of the corners of the pitch for good luck.

"Lucky quid" link:

http://kumb.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=101327&sid=13fe871ed9a8d94a12cc7f203fe7b56f&start=700

[RealG-TFC]

They're as snobby as fuck. I'm glad I didn't blindly support them.

[I_AM_CANADIAN]

Seems like a lot of the people on that board were American, actually... judging from the first couple pages, at least.

[Raging Reggie]

from a lot of west ham supporters i ment at the bar yesterday they really really liked it and enjoyed themselves here in canada. The loved the fact that we sang oh canada over the "yank" national anthem. I heard that word a lot, "yank" ahhaha (i loved it. I aint to fond about a lot of the "yanks" stuff either). I had a grand time partying with them

[Dirk Diggler]

They're as snobby as fuck. I'm glad I didn't blindly support them.

Yeah, seriously. WTF is up with those who were cheering West Ham yesterday? I mean seriously, no one on the MLS All-Star team was nearly as bad, in terms of character, as Bellamy and Bowyer. One is a locker room cancer and the other is much of the same plus a racist. Not only that, they both picked up some mysterious injuries and decided to sit this one out. Yeah, they certainly gave us our money's worth :rolleyes:

And some of the comments on their board is ridiculous. "The MLS All-Stars are in their mid-season form where as we only came off vacations". Yeah, except West Ham has been training as a team for over a century now where as the All-Stars just came to Toronto the day before....many of whom having already played a competitive game a day before that. There is no fuckin' doubt in my mind that if the MLS All-Stars were a proper club in the EPL, they would increase the winning margin on West Ham every passing game.

Also, seriously, they are West Ham fans. They need to get some perspective. Once again. Seriously. West.... Fuckin'... Ham. Nuff' said.

P.S. If the All Stars end up playing Liverpool next year, I'm gonna riot.

[I_AM_CANADIAN]

Ugh... Liverpool.

Still, it'd be nice to take their arrogant douchey fans down a few notches. God knows they need it, too.

[Billy the kid]

Interesting, one of them picked up on the whole anthem controversy.

"Ive watched the first few minutes of DVD so I know those watching on tv probably missed MLS big f*** up in opening ceremoies where they announced only TWO anthems would be played, the home crowd was not amused when God save the queen then US anthem were played , O Canada was sang over the star spangled banner by a pissed off crowd , then of course they pull out some mounties and colour guard for ocanada but by then was too late, damage had been done. MLS and MLSE mickey mickey mouse, I hope someone gets fired for that"

[BigD]

P.S. If the All Stars end up playing Liverpool next year, I'm gonna riot.

It probably won't be an EPL team to keep the variety ... maybe Real Madrid :)

[CretanBull]

Skill wise, the attacking players on the MLS All-Star team could form the basis of Premiership team. Overall though? Not a chance...they don't have the toughness needed and the back line is no where neer good enough - they'd get torn apart.

[CanuckPete]

Ugh... Liverpool.

Still, it'd be nice to take their arrogant douchey fans down a few notches. God knows they need it, too.

I am deeply offended by that.

And if I wasn't so much better than you, I would explain why. ;)

[rocker]

Skill wise, the attacking players on the MLS All-Star team could form the basis of Premiership team. Overall though? Not a chance...they don't have the toughness needed and the back line is no where neer good enough - they'd get torn apart.

you don't think they'd even be a low-level premiership team?

I think they would. They could be better than Derby was.

The bench is also very good for the MLS allstars. There were guys on the bench that would had far more experience than typical bench players for low level premiership teams.

[Kickit09]

what a bunch of fuckin wankers!

[ExiledRed]

Favourite quotes:

"Only the f***ing Americans would give goal of the game to a f***ing penalty http://www.kumb.com/forum/images/smilies/icon_lol.gif"

"boa morte has got the touch of a rapist, absolute useless plank of wood"

"This thread proves to me that football is a great game. You can talk absolute b***ocks about a nothing match and no-one can prove you're wrong."

[flatpicker]

Well I confess... I had been trolling the West Ham boards to gauge reaction...
looks like I wasn't alone!
and it looks as if you guys highlighted some of the posts I read.

There definitely was a lot of talk, both on the board and by WHU fans sitting by me at the game, about the quality of our turf.
I think the main issue they have is the bounce it has.
I can't seem to find any other complaints about it... but I was hearing over and over about how the ball would not be doing that on grass.

[Canary Canuck]

That's my problem with the turf. It's too bouncy. The ball bounds along the surface and takes forever to settle. On pristine grass the bounce is killed a lot sooner allowing passes to roll.

[zeelaw]

Ugh... Liverpool.

Still, it'd be nice to take their arrogant douchey fans down a few notches. God knows they need it, too.
Liverpool would run over MLS All Stars

[brad]

Liverpool would run over MLS All Stars

Like Chelsea or Real Madrid did?

[I_AM_CANADIAN]

Liverpool would run over MLS All Stars
If Chelsea at the height of Abramovich's spending couldn't, I doubt Liverpool could. They've only even managed a second place finish in the Premier League once. For some reason, they just tear up European competitions.:confused:

[zeelaw]

Like Chelsea or Real Madrid did?

nope they lost

[zeelaw]

If Chelsea at the height of Abramovich's spending couldn't, I doubt Liverpool could. They've only even managed a second place finish in the Premier League once. For some reason, they just tear up European competitions.:confused:

nope liverpool would win :)

[Antoshka]

Favourite quotes:


"boa morte has got the touch of a rapist, absolute useless plank of wood"




:rofl::rofl::rofl:

[I_AM_CANADIAN]

nope liverpool would win :)
:rolleyes:

[CretanBull]

you don't think they'd even be a low-level premiership team?

I think they would. They could be better than Derby was.

The bench is also very good for the MLS allstars. There were guys on the bench that would had far more experience than typical bench players for low level premiership teams.

They'd be Derby calibre, but they weren't really a Premiershiip team - they fluked their way in and were gone as soon as they arrived :D

For some perspective, Angel is one of the top strikers in the MLS....he couldn't get off the bench in Aston Villa when they were a mid-table team.

[I_AM_CANADIAN]

While he was there, I seem to remember Villa fighting against relegation for a couple years... And he scored 66 goals for them, not too shabby.

[mr k]

I would have doubts if MLS players can handle an EPL season phyically as most are on the smaller side. If you scan through EPL rosters, 6 foot+ players are more the norm than being uncommon.
Plus, EPL players are overall better athletes; so even if football skill level was on par, EPL players would more often win the one on one battles.

I see the MLS all-star type team as a lower ranked EPL team that would eventually get relegated. Results from these all star games are meaningless as I only saw about 2 hard tackles and West Ham didn't have the fitness yet to play at a typical EPL pace.

[kitchener-TFC]

- They liked the atmosphere (they recognize BMO as the best in North America).
- They hate Americans.

:canada: hahaha

Interesting, one of them picked up on the whole anthem controversy.

"Ive watched the first few minutes of DVD so I know those watching on tv probably missed MLS big f*** up in opening ceremoies where they announced only TWO anthems would be played, the home crowd was not amused when God save the queen then US anthem were played , O Canada was sang over the star spangled banner by a pissed off crowd , then of course they pull out some mounties and colour guard for ocanada but by then was too late, damage had been done. MLS and MLSE mickey mickey mouse, I hope someone gets fired for that"
:canada:

[CretanBull]

While he was there, I seem to remember Villa fighting against relegation for a couple years... And he scored 66 goals for them, not too shabby.

He had 44 goals in 6 seasons in the Premiership, on average scoring 1 goal every 7 games. In his last two seasons he had 4 goals and 3 goals, and as I said couldn't get off the bench when they were a mid-table team.

He went from 4 goals in 23 games in his last season in at Villa, to scoring 19 goals in 24 games in his first season for NYRB.

Could he play for a team like Derby? Sure...but no one would considering him a Premiership-quality striker.

A guy that we just saw - Dean Ashton - is considered to be a pretty average striker in the Premiership...in his off season form he looked better than Angel.

[ExiledRed]

^^ i think the issue is less to do with the quality of strikers, but more to do with the quality of defence betweeen the two leagues.

[CretanBull]

^Yup, I agree. Like I said, the top attacking players could find a spot in the Premiership but the backline would get torn apart. I'm not sure if there's a single defender in the MLS that could play regularly in the Prem.

[Oldtimer]

It was fun reading through most of the thread, thanks for posting it.

I see that the frustration of being a mid-table EPL team is very similar to being an MLS mid-table team. Always the fear of embarrasing defeats. They sound so much like us in the pre-season! Including analysis like:


Green - No real mistakes.

Neill - Sell this clown.
Ferdinand - Couple of errors, not his best.
Davenport - Championship please.
Widdowson - Two goal saving pieces of work. Too small really.

Faubert - Terrible. Useless.
Mullins - Need to move on.
Parker - Offers nothing but clattering tackles.
Etherington - Pace looked off, but back.

Ashton - 2 goals nothing else.
Cole - Hard work, sh*t finishing.

SUBS: Collison, Stokes, Reid were anonymous. Stanislas looked sharp. Boa Morte as per.

So much like the negative comments we saw on our board pre-season.

[Smenge]

I think that goal Blanco scored, after he danced around the West Ham defender, demonstrates, at least for one game, which side was better....the West Ham defenders looked awful all night.....the comments about bigger and stronger defenders is a joke....if this were valid, England, and not Spain, would have dominated the Euro.....skilled players with pace make the difference on the pitch..

[I_AM_CANADIAN]

I'm not sure, but I think that Angel's strike rate in the EPL is probably better than Peter Crouch's, and robot dance boy was a regular for England somehow.

And a lot of English fans consider Ashton to be underrated, he should be getting capped for England when you look at the strikers they have to rely on now. You've got Crouch whose touch on the ball is like a brick, Rooney, whose form this season hasn't been great to put it nicely, and Owen, the man with shredded knees. Ashton is a clinical finisher on front of goal.

I think you guys are really underrating MLS. Five years ago, the quality of play was absolutely abysmal, but in the last two or three years it's really improved. If f'in Dean Windass can lead Hull City to promotion, it clearly shows that the Championship isn't as great as the English make it out to be. If Dean Windass can do well, then a Blanco or DeRo would absolutely ravage the whole league.

And aside from the big four, the Premiership doesn't really have all that much talent and is the most overrated league in the world, but that's a whole other kettle of fish... I think that only two or three of the MLS All Stars would be able to find a Serie A or Primera Liga starting job, but they'd fit in with any of the bottom ten or so Premiership teams.

[Bluenose13]

I'm not sure, but I think that Angel's strike rate in the EPL is probably better than Peter Crouch's, and robot dance boy was a regular for England somehow.

And a lot of English fans consider Ashton to be underrated, he should be getting capped for England when you look at the strikers they have to rely on now. You've got Crouch whose touch on the ball is like a brick, Rooney, whose form this season hasn't been great to put it nicely, and Owen, the man with shredded knees. Ashton is a clinical finisher on front of goal.

I think you guys are really underrating MLS. Five years ago, the quality of play was absolutely abysmal, but in the last two or three years it's really improved. If f'in Dean Windass can lead Hull City to promotion, it clearly shows that the Championship isn't as great as the English make it out to be. If Dean Windass can do well, then a Blanco or DeRo would absolutely ravage the whole league.

And aside from the big four, the Premiership doesn't really have all that much talent and is the most overrated league in the world, but that's a whole other kettle of fish... I think that only two or three of the MLS All Stars would be able to find a Serie A or Primera Liga starting job, but they'd fit in with any of the bottom ten or so Premiership teams.Complete and utter bullshit :cool:

[Smenge]

The league championship is comparable to Serie B. A lot of English ex-patriots, still love their old team, and have a predictable bias in favor of the second tier league. I am not going out on the limb and say most of the EPL teams are bad, but they are overrated. Many EPL fans, that I have known for many years, complain that the division between the top five teams and the rest is growing every year, to the detriment of the lower teams.

I like to compare comments I read here, about the greatness of English soccer leagues, with those that were made in the Bundesliga forums, when Toni and Ribery were about to join that league. Toni was made out to be a fool, and a stumbling loaf, etc.....then, in one short season, dominates German football, along side his French teammate, who together were amongst the best players in continental europe last season......The English game is generally overrated, but the top five EPL teams are the best on earth.

[Bluenose13]

The league championship is comparable to Serie B. A lot of English ex-patriots, still love their old team, and have a predictable bias in favor of the second tier league. I am not going out on the limb and say most of the EPL teams are bad, but they are overrated. Many EPL fans, that I have known for many years, complain that the division between the top five teams and the rest is growing every year, to the detriment of the lower teams.

I like to compare comments I read here, about the greatness of English soccer leagues, with those that were made in the Bundesliga forums, when Toni and Ribery were about to join that league. Toni was made out to be a fool, and a stumbling loaf, etc.....then, in one short season, dominates German football, along side his French teammate, who together were amongst the best players in continental europe last season......The English game is generally overrated, but the top five EPL teams are the best on earth.Which is exactly why there is such a drop off to the rest of premiership teams.........Tough to compete against the BEST ON EARTH

[CretanBull]

Complete and utter bullshit :cool:


QFT!!

[CretanBull]

---------------------------James (PO)--------------------------
Lescott (EV) - Laursen (AV) - Johnson (PO) - Scharner (WI)
Barry (AV) - Bentley (BR) - Downing (MI) - Cahill (EV)
-------------- Santa Cruz (BR) - Berbatov (TH)------------------

Subs: Keane (TH), Elano (MC), Neville (EV), Green (WH)

I could put together 2 or 3 teams like that, all made up of players that don't play for the top 4 clubs that would easily beat just about any team in the world.

It's the depth of talent in England that makes it the best league in the world, not the quality of the top 4.

The Championship is better than any other 2nd division on the world, the FL is better than any other 3rd division in the world and FL2 is better than any 4th division in the world.

[JDG]

The league championship is comparable to Serie B. A lot of English ex-patriots, still love their old team, and have a predictable bias in favor of the second tier league. I am not going out on the limb and say most of the EPL teams are bad, but they are overrated. Many EPL fans, that I have known for many years, complain that the division between the top five teams and the rest is growing every year, to the detriment of the lower teams.

I like to compare comments I read here, about the greatness of English soccer leagues, with those that were made in the Bundesliga forums, when Toni and Ribery were about to join that league. Toni was made out to be a fool, and a stumbling loaf, etc.....then, in one short season, dominates German football, along side his French teammate, who together were amongst the best players in continental europe last season......The English game is generally overrated, but the top five EPL teams are the best on earth.


While the top four dominate, that fourth spot was contested hotly for awhile this season.
As a Villa fan, I will tell you that the competition for the last spot for Europe was far more exciting than the fight for the cup. We all knew it was coming down to two teams at the top, but 5th, 6th, & 7th spots were anyone's guess until the last game of the season.

[Smenge]

Elano I like, Berbatov is good. In a few years I would pick Altidore over both....the point is, you guys know everything there is to know about League Championship, every player, every trainer, everything...but I doubt you know nearly as much about other leagues, such as Serie B. Because it is impossible to prove your point, you simply expect everyone to agree. A few years back, teams in Serie B played against the championship, or whatever it was called then, and if I recall, Serie B kicked their asses all over the pitch....I would think most of the top Serie B teams are as good, or better than the English counterparts, but since nobody recognizes any of the names of the cities, the players, the trainers, the rest of the bull shit, you automatically assume this cannot be true......Besides, nothing lasts forever, one day the American and Russian billionaires may stop feeding the EPL, then many players will look elsewhere for work.....

[rocker]

sporting competition in the premiership is really a competition of money.
they should have the dollars run around the field each week just to remind people.

if you want to know the order of finish of next year's EPL, just find out the wage bills and you can correlate it pretty well...

of course, when Man U destroys Derby it's portrayed as some sort of "pure competition" winning out......

[CretanBull]

of course, when Man U destroys Derby it's portrayed as some sort of "pure competition" winning out......

That's not true at all...EVERYONE understands the impact that big money has had on the Premiership and it's probably the #1 topic of conversation among sports fans in England.

[ag futbol]

Which is exactly why there is such a drop off to the rest of premiership teams.........Tough to compete against the BEST ON EARTH
We all know that most of these European leagues are cyclical. Just a few years ago you saw three italian teams in the finial four. This year you had three english teams in the final four. When you get to the level of the super clubs, there is very little to chose from. They all have an emensly high level of talent and resources. It's not like Palermo or Real Betis can compete with the big boys in their leagues either. Unlike the EPL, they don't have the TV money to fall back on their. All these lower division clubs fight uphill battles.

Would an MLS all-star team stand a chance in the regular table? Personally I think they might be able to fight of relegation but not too much beyond that.

One thing to keep in mind about the game is WH is a physical team, they could have come out and fouled the shit out of our players and won a ginding game 2-1, but it was an game meant for entertainment, so they played pretty sportingly I thought.

MLS all star team is quality, but i don't think the team is cut out for the physical nature of the EPL, unless you are talking Shalarie Joseph or a few other exceptions. It's a team that would pay better in a more technical setting.

[jloome]

That's not true at all...EVERYONE understands the impact that big money has had on the Premiership and it's probably the #1 topic of conversation among sports fans in England.

I think the most telling quotes I've seen about the difference between the top of the Prem (where all the top four could legitimately win the Champion's League) to the bottom (where they could legitimately not win the CCC) were from Rohan Ricketts after the DC game, when he said that DC was a substantially better team than Derby County was last year. There are HUGE dropoffs between the top and the bottom of the prem, because the top isn't just buying up the top players anymore, it's buying up the top backups as well.

As a result, you've got a guy like Kenwye Jones as a top striker and prospect simultaneously for Sunderland, for example (or ashton, for that matter, at west ham) and then you've got a guy like Kenny Cooper, who I'd certainly rate as high as those two.

Also, frankly, all the smack talk about Angel is a bit out-of-context. When you "can't get off the bench) and yu end up scorign 4 goals in 23 games, that might be out of only six legitimate starts; if you're only getting 10 or 15 minutes per game playing in a rotation or behind a "partnership" (please -- I've followed Villa as much as anyone who regularly follows the prem in recent years) then you don't necessarily get the chances. The fans there thought he was class, just too streaky and losing his speed in his final two years there.

I wouldn't doubt he stayed in Argentina too long in his early career, but he ripped it apart as well for River Plate.

Anyway, I think the fact is, it's almost impossible to say who in England MLS compares with on any day, because the pressures on teams here -- from the salary cap, to the extreme travel distances, to the short rosters, to the lack of development structure due to the league's youth -- simply don't exist in england. I think I've seen TFC play well enough on the odd day ( the 4-0 dallas pasting, a couple of 3-1 wins) to compete in the lower end of the prem and certainly in the championship.

If I absolutely had to rate it, or pick a leagure to transpose some teams from here to compete with, it would be Serie B, because it has teams ranging in competency all the way from the equivalent of about League One to the equivalent of the lower end of the prem.

My last proposition on this subject: if you ask players, they'll tell you the real differnece is that most players in the professional game at ANY level in england have strong technical skills compared to even the best amateurs; what they add into the mix to become elite players are speed and decision-making. If they have speed in abudnance and a modicum of technical ability, they'll succeed at League one and two, may do okay but will probably struggle a little at ccc level, and won't have the goods for the prem.

If they have exceptional football intelligence and good technical skill but no wheels, they'll succeed at the league one/ccc level/lower premiership level (on the offensive end).

If they have all three, they can succeed at the top end of the prem, and then it's a matter of degrees defined by their athleticism and natural skill.

[CretanBull]

I think the most telling quotes I've seen about the difference between the top of the Prem (where all the top four could legitimately win the Champion's League) to the bottom (where they could legitimately not win the CCC) were from Rohan Ricketts after the DC game, when he said that DC was a substantially better team than Derby County was last year. There are HUGE dropoffs between the top and the bottom of the prem, because the top isn't just buying up the top players anymore, it's buying up the top backups as well.

Derby County set records for being the worst team ever promoted, so the fact that (in Ricketts mind) DC were better doesn't really say much.



Also, frankly, all the smack talk about Angel is a bit out-of-context. When you "can't get off the bench) and yu end up scorign 4 goals in 23 games, that might be out of only six legitimate starts;

If he's so great, why wasn't he getting the starts? Fact is when Villa were towards the bottom of the table Angel was a regular and did well. As soon as they moved up the table - with the additions of Ashton and Carew Angel found himself on the bench.

[Inswingingwingman]

Big deal.....

At the end of the day...guys step up or don't.

Lots of really good epl games, lots of bad ones too.

Probably you could blame losing on the same thing other basketball teams say after a visit to T.O. They had too much fun going out and drinking.......'cause at 'home' they'd be worried to get their butts kicked or shot at...so T.O.'s a fun place and cripes I'm hung over........

We all now a real Canadian was a guy who drank 12 beers with supper, smoked cigars in the locker room, and beat the detroit dead things with a wrist shot from center ice....with a broken leg and 3 snapped off yet un repaired teeth and 12 stitches done on the bench by a guy using an old skate lace and a darning needle to sew it up.

After the game he puked 3 times, drank 12 more beers, and smoked 3 cubans while driving his porche home and parking it sideways on the lawn.......and found the strippers panties in his parka pocket the next day......

After all WE ARE Canadian........!!!

[Technorgasm]

Are we still in teh mode of comparing MLS to other leagues?
the songs, chants, player quality, stadium size, media coverage, formations blah blah fucking blah.

Totally annoying. . more so from people who piss on our leaaague. . . still annoying to see coming from the inside, however positive. . and popular it is to do.

[I_AM_CANADIAN]

Which is exactly why there is such a drop off to the rest of premiership teams.........Tough to compete against the BEST ON EARTH
And the reason the English national team doesn't win anything these days is because the top five teams have a handful of English players between them.

And about why the top five are so dominant... All TV revenues generated by the Premier League STAY in the Premier League. All the other top leagues in Europe share the money with at least one lower division. Hence why it's rare for a promoted team to stay in the Premiership for more than one or two seasons these days, it's so much easier for the established clubs to stay up because they've had years of Premiership TV income.

[NateDoGG]

i read one post, page 5 i think, and then i stopped reading right after that..

those guys are pure cunts, and WEST HAM FUCKIN SUCK.............................. like big time.

[brad]

I think that only two or three of the MLS All Stars would be able to find a Serie A or Primera Liga starting job, but they'd fit in with any of the bottom ten or so Premiership teams.

Eddie Johnson was arguably one of the better forwards in the MLS and he looked completely like a fish out of water playing for one of the bottom EPL teams.