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tfcmanu
01-01-2016, 12:29 PM
I do not believe this poll...many factors involved...TFC my #1.

http://m.thestar.com/#/article/sports/2015/12/31/poll-shows-sports-fans-warmed-up-to-blue-jays-but-coldly-indifferent-to-argos.html

Richard
01-01-2016, 01:02 PM
Why? Sounds about right to me. Just look at the abysmal TV numbers.

SoccMan2
01-01-2016, 02:21 PM
The thing that stood out was how that Argo executive , Sara Moore states that she sees the Argos passing TFC after next season and she almost sounds like it should be no problem for the Argos to pass TFC very arrogant of her wow. One thing about the Argos they still get a lot more media attention in the mainstream media than TFC, and with the move to BMO will get even more next season.

ensco
01-01-2016, 03:01 PM
Who cares which team is "first"?

Declaring that “It’s not true (anymore) that this is a hardcore hockey town" is ridiculous. The Jays numbers are pumped up now. Do these guys not realize what the ratings are like everywhere when a Canadian team is in the Stanley Cup Finals? Bruins-Canucks drew 11 million or something.

tfcmanu
01-01-2016, 04:01 PM
?
Why? Sounds about right to me. Just look at the abysmal TV numbers.

Leafs are the #1 sports team wait and see if they ever start winning and the Argos over TFC time will tell

__wowza
01-01-2016, 04:03 PM
The thing that stood out was how that Argo executive , Sara Moore states that she sees the Argos passing TFC after next season and she almost sounds like it should be no problem for the Argos to pass TFC very arrogant of her wow. One thing about the Argos they still get a lot more media attention in the mainstream media than TFC, and with the move to BMO will get even more next season.

and why not?

you're an executive for a team, if you're not setting the clear goal to inch closer to #1 then you shouldn't be affiliated with that team.
case in point, the mentality that tim and co. have presented is a team that is a constant contender for trophies. this season at every presser they've held for the past 3 signings they've stated very clearly that this is their goal. whether it's attainable or delusional is another matter, but he's very clearly indicated that this is the direction he'd like to take the team in.

it's not arrogant at all, not the way she phrased it at least.

Auzzy
01-01-2016, 04:11 PM
Very interesting poll, numbers for both Argos and TFC lower than I expected.

We shall see how BMO Field affects the Argos. I think there will be a "first season" bump, beyond that who knows. They won the Grey Cup in Toronto in 2012, yet it hardly affected ticket sales/attendance or general interest. The move to BMO is really a hail mary play, too bad that they'll likely screw up the field for TFC & have other negative impacts.

I haven't seen similar polls from previous years, but my bet is that MLSE really screwed the pooch with TFC since the beginning. I know many people who used to follow TFC, and have simply given up over the years. Most know about Giovinco, are happy he's here, and have watched a few highlights. But they're very skeptical about getting involved again, as there have been so many great hopes and great promises over the years. I think that TFC will need to have multiple years of competent management and much better results before people will be willing to commit again.

james
01-01-2016, 04:53 PM
Me personally, I think Argos will draw a lot of attention this year, mainly for the new renovated BMO field, it will draw a lot of new fans to the stadium (even tho the stadium has been here for some years, the new renovations will be impressive and many fans who just hate Soccer never wanted to visit the stadium before). Argos do get more media attention, and those fans who often don't really follow Argos or Toronto FC probably know more about the Argos mainly because they have been around forever, the history, and again the media attention. I also think after a few years go by, the Argos new stadium will fade off, and the team will have to start winning to keep the attendance high. Overall tho, the new BMO field will help the Argos a lot, the Sky Dome was just awful for CFL, this will be much better.

When Toronto FC have big games I find many Toronto people are not aware of it. Toronto FC is a small niche market. But in some ways...who cares, we don't really have band wagon jumpers like the Blue Jays or the Leafs or Raptors might get, or the thousands and thousands of people who watch the World Cup and Euro Cup and show how much they love soccer but never attend a TFC game. The fans we have are often pretty hardcore fans, we travel better then any team in this city for away games and we have a louder atmosphere then any team (most teams like the Blue Jays get loud in the playoffs with 50k fans in the stands, why can you here a pin drop when there is 20k in the stadium? no singing, no chanting, just loud music being played on the speakers!). Toronto supporters are unique and I think always will be. I'm proud of that.

A random note, in Oakville where I live, days when there is no TFC game (otherwise that would just be biased), when I am getting the train, or bus or going to LCBO or stuff like that, I see Toronto FC jerseys, or hats or jackets from time to time....more then I ever see Argo stuff. I don't know if that is because there is more TFC fans here or if CFL fans just don't wear the gear as much, I am not sure, but that is my experience. Visually I see more TFC then Argos, my personal visual survey says wins! :scarf:

ag futbol
01-01-2016, 04:54 PM
I'm going to predict a potential first season pump followed by a subsequent backslide into their previous levels.

A new stadium is just wallpaper over all the issues the CFL has, particularly with younger demographics and the GTA.

bimmer
01-01-2016, 05:53 PM
As much as some of us may hate to admit it, the Argos are a similarly, if not more popular team than TFC is currently and the TV ratings clearly show this. The upside for TFC however, is that MLS is a rapidly growing league with literally no ceiling to its potential... like literally "best league in the world" potential, whereas the CFL will always be a second rate league with a stagnant/dying fanbase.

jabbronies
01-01-2016, 07:04 PM
Very interesting poll, numbers for both Argos and TFC lower than I expected.

We shall see how BMO Field affects the Argos. I think there will be a "first season" bump, beyond that who knows. They won the Grey Cup in Toronto in 2012, yet it hardly affected ticket sales/attendance or general interest. The move to BMO is really a hail mary play, too bad that they'll likely screw up the field for TFC & have other negative impacts.

I haven't seen similar polls from previous years, but my bet is that MLSE really screwed the pooch with TFC since the beginning. I know many people who used to follow TFC, and have simply given up over the years. Most know about Giovinco, are happy he's here, and have watched a few highlights. But they're very skeptical about getting involved again, as there have been so many great hopes and great promises over the years. I think that TFC will need to have multiple years of competent management and much better results before people will be willing to commit again.


Argos fan base is old. I wouldn't be surprised if the average age is 45. The move to BMO will hurt them hard in bad weather.

BelfastBoy
01-01-2016, 09:17 PM
As much as some of us may hate to admit it, the Argos are a similarly, if not more popular team than TFC is currently and the TV ratings clearly show this. The upside for TFC however, is that MLS is a rapidly growing league with literally no ceiling to its potential... like literally "best league in the world" potential, whereas the CFL will always be a second rate league with a stagnant/dying fanbase.

I disagree. People talk about the Argos and reference the Argos but when it comes down to it the actual number of people that will actually turn up to support the team is debatable.
Of course there will be a flood of Johnny-come-lately types this coming year. They have sort of a phantom fan-base that relies on Shaggy or Tony Hawk halftime shows, free pizza or playing at BMO field, to get fans in the seats.

james
01-01-2016, 09:30 PM
One edge that Football (NFL/CFL) in general have in advantage to filling seats is Argos have to sell about 28k tickets in what 8 or 9 home games? TFC have to sell the same to get sold out in about 16 or 17 home games? plus another couple in the Canada Cup plus the Concacaf Champions League (if they qualify). More tickets to sell can mean harder to fill a stadium, it seems bad when you can't get sold out stadium in 8 or 9 games.

ManUtd4ever
01-01-2016, 09:47 PM
If all our teams were winning, I suspect the ranking would be as follows:

Leafs
Jays
Raptors
TFC
Argos

The Argos have won several championships since their decline in popularity in this city, and they have still continued to spiral towards irrelevance.

bimmer
01-01-2016, 09:48 PM
I disagree. People talk about the Argos and reference the Argos but when it comes down to it the actual number of people that will actually turn up to support the team is debatable.
Of course there will be a flood of Johnny-come-lately types this coming year. They have sort of a phantom fan-base that relies on Shaggy or Tony Hawk halftime shows, free pizza or playing at BMO field, to get fans in the seats.

It's pretty clear which team has the more FERVENT fans for sure, but in quantifiable popularity measures like attendance and TV ratings, the Argos regularly perform similarly or better. They were pretty much on par in average attendance up until this year when they dipped by a few thousand (you could argue TFC could have had much higher numbers if BMO had more capacity but even after last year's expansion our attendance only went up by a couple of thousand and you could also argue that the Argos would have also drawn more if they weren't playing in such a crappy venue). In terms of TV ratings TFC gets absolutely crushed by the Argos week in week out. And let's not pretend TFC doesn't have its own fair share of "Johnny-come-lately" types and fairweather fans... we've all seen the empty stands at kickoff and the free tickets with pizza promotions.

Red CB Toronto
01-01-2016, 10:31 PM
One things is that TFC tickets are cheap as shit compared to Argo tickets.

OgtheDim
01-02-2016, 10:19 AM
The media is going to play up the Argos vs TFC thing all season.


Don't care.

The pitch conditions are all that matters.



I support TFC.

Oldtimer
01-03-2016, 08:58 AM
Argos do well on TV because the CFL still has a huge following out West, and in Toronto guys in their 60s and 70s watch the games on TV. Very few younger Torontonians watch the CFL or the Argos, NFL is their pointyball of choice.

Fort York Redcoat
01-03-2016, 10:17 AM
Who cares which team is "first"?


The media is going to play up the Argos vs TFC thing all season.


Don't care.

The pitch conditions are all that matters.



I support TFC.

These 2 sum it up perfectly for me. The day that TFC move in this poll list above is the day that I... still don't look at the team any differently. :noidea:

sidvan
01-03-2016, 10:51 AM
These 2 sum it up perfectly for me. The day that TFC move in this poll list above is the day that I... still don't look at the team any differently. :noidea:
absolutely!

Still Kicking
01-03-2016, 04:39 PM
I think that this poll reflects a few things - the intention behind the poll, not the content of it. Why would one rank teams? Would you rank political parties? or your offspring?

The Toronto Star does not get (or has lost over the years) the concept of supporting a team through thick and thin. I think the bandwagon nature of Toronto sports "fans" or followers is appalling and this sort of poll gives comfort to those who are too shallow in their ways. I would also blame MLSE and Rogers for encouraging the concept of Toronto fans as sheep who just flock and graze.
It is not just a soccer thing this team loyalty concept, although it is stronger in the footy world, it did not used to be.
My best Christmas book is "Bums" an oral history of the Brooklyn Dodgers. About 3/4s through it, I am loving it. Americans were not casual about supporting teams back in baseball's heyday. If you rooted for the Dodgers, it was implied that you hated the Giants and the Yankees.

Fort York Redcoat
01-04-2016, 09:49 AM
I think that this poll reflects a few things - the intention behind the poll, not the content of it. Why would one rank teams? Would you rank political parties? or your offspring?

The Toronto Star does not get (or has lost over the years) the concept of supporting a team through thick and thin. I think the bandwagon nature of Toronto sports "fans" or followers is appalling and this sort of poll gives comfort to those who are too shallow in their ways. I would also blame MLSE and Rogers for encouraging the concept of Toronto fans as sheep who just flock and graze.
It is not just a soccer thing this team loyalty concept, although it is stronger in the footy world, it did not used to be.
My best Christmas book is "Bums" an oral history of the Brooklyn Dodgers. About 3/4s through it, I am loving it. Americans were not casual about supporting teams back in baseball's heyday. If you rooted for the Dodgers, it was implied that you hated the Giants and the Yankees.

I think you're looking at this as if it's a new thing this year. Which is giving it too much credit. This is not the first poll like this nor the last. There ARE people who care and watch all sports and are simply curious or just watch one and hope more people join in on the fun.

I see it too much as a ... measuring contest that really shouldn't affect how anyone views their favourite team or sport. Comparisons will be made. How important we make it is up to us. I just hope it doesn't become a priority or focus that's dependent for their enjoying their game in any real sense.

ryan
01-04-2016, 07:30 PM
Tabbies trump the Raps eh? Oskee wee wee you CFL hating punks!

OgtheDim
01-04-2016, 07:48 PM
Wait a second


This is a Forum poll commissioned for the Star from earlier in the year of 1001 people from Ontario & that poll is NOT available on Forum's site?!?!?!?!!?


AND the research and methodology is not shown?!?!?!!?!



PAH...until somebody can find the poll itself including the questions, this means nothing.

james
01-05-2016, 02:06 AM
One things is that TFC tickets are cheap as shit compared to Argo tickets.

ya TFC have some sections with very affordable tickets, and it creates a huge supporters section atmosphere in Soccer. Arogs tho also only play 8 home games? so you kind of have to sell tickets for a higher price, if you are buying season tickets for $20 a game you could be getting season tickets for $160., that would be even cheaper then TFC.

troy1982
01-05-2016, 05:02 AM
below are the more detail stats from the poll

http://i.imgur.com/em0eKIpl.jpg

OgtheDim
01-05-2016, 07:23 AM
Thanks.

I note nobody talks about the dirty secret in all this.

"None of these" is bigger then any team. I'd like to see a breakdown on that between support for other sports teams and not supporting sports at all.

fergiejr
01-05-2016, 08:25 AM
A random note, in Oakville where I live, days when there is no TFC game (otherwise that would just be biased), when I am getting the train, or bus or going to LCBO or stuff like that, I see Toronto FC jerseys, or hats or jackets from time to time....more then I ever see Argo stuff. I don't know if that is because there is more TFC fans here or if CFL fans just don't wear the gear as much, I am not sure, but that is my experience. Visually I see more TFC then Argos, my personal visual survey says wins! :scarf:

That's me James. :-) Try getting me out of RED during the summer months. I wear it all year 'round, but you can't see it under my winter jacket... ;-)

I find it interesting that there were only 1001 people polled. Not a great sample. In my experience, of the handful of people in my immediate circle that watch hockey on a regular basis, only 2 or 3 of them are Leafs fans. There are twice as many Habs fans and Bruins fans than leaf fans. You can say the same thing about basketball as well, there are people living in Ontario that are not Raptor fans. I don't think you can say the same thing on the same kind of scale for fans of other MLS or CFL teams. I second OG's thought - I would like to see "I follow hockey but do not support the Leafs" in the poll.

But again, it's not going to change my perception of the team. I bleed red.

SenorDingDong
01-05-2016, 11:52 AM
This poll will change every year based on who is winning.

Jays beating the leafs out is proof of that.

A few years back when it was Boston vs Toronto in the playoffs (NHL) Leafs would have swept the Jays under then.

billyfly
01-05-2016, 12:12 PM
The Jays climb to the top is inevitable considering many factors. Hell, the Raptors are poised to jump the Leafs as well if they were to win.

MLSE (and yes Rogers) heavily market the Canada's team factor which totally bleeds into Toronto itself feels about these unique (to Canada) teams.

MightyDM
01-05-2016, 01:50 PM
171 people polled in Toronto, 428 in the GTA, obviously when Jays fever at its highest - not very relevant to my thinking.

I'll be more concerned next year after we make a deep run in the playoffs and it remains the same - then we will be marginalized, like the Argos.

Prof
01-07-2016, 01:34 PM
They must have taken the survey at the local senior citizens home. I don't know anyone under 60 that watches baseball??

ManUtd4ever
01-07-2016, 02:30 PM
They must have taken the survey at the local senior citizens home. I don't know anyone under 60 that watches baseball??

You must be joking. The Jays demographic fan base is the youngest and most diverse in all of MLB.

OgtheDim
01-07-2016, 02:41 PM
You must be joking. The Jays demographic fan base is the youngest and most diverse in all of MLB.

At the Dome, yes.

Watching on TV? Not so sure.

Pint
01-07-2016, 02:41 PM
You must be joking. The Jays demographic fan base is the youngest and most diverse in all of MLB.

The jays bandwagon fan base is young... it has turned into the thing to do on a Thursday night after work from what i'm told.

I wouldn't call them hard core baseball fans but the games were turned into events

molenshtain
01-07-2016, 02:50 PM
At the Dome, yes.

Watching on TV? Not so sure.

to be fair, I think once shit kicked into gear and we got Price and Tulo it really was everyone​ watching.

trane
01-08-2016, 02:53 PM
I do not believe this poll, or the poll does not quite paint the proper picture when it comes to TFC. Lets put it this way for at least 50% of the people of the GTA football, soccer for CFL first persons, is their first sport. That is the truth. At for 50 % of people I interact on a daily basis, football is their first sport, and I interact on daily basis with people of all kinds of ethnic backgrounds. Now this does not mean that they support TFC first, most support some over overseas team first, but most of these people are aware of TFC and follow it at least casually. The only group of peope that this is not true for ( at least on a general basis) is those people who do not have relatively recent immigrant roots, and even many of these people have heard about TFC, most of these people have heard of the CFL, but support the NFL.


Now I like the CFL, I like it for the Canadiana, I am a Torontonian, and an immigrant, but I am not a big city snob, and I love most things Canadian with a long history, the CFL is it, and the Argo's and the Ti-Cats, the two "local" team have history. However, in my observations, since 2006, Football is AT LEAST the third sport among Torontonians , and TFC has the potential to be AT LEAST the third biggest franchise in the city, but it needs to do better. Unfortunately despite the widespread support for football in the Area, it is not enough to be the local team without a tradition to get the support, you must became the local team with a winning tradition. clearly we do not have that yet.

Bottom line is that football is much more popular then CFL, and therefore TFC has a a huge upside, much bigger then the CFl.s not matter what the management of the Argo's think.

I wish I had more information about the poll, but one thing I do not understand is why was in Ontario wide? I would think that there are many places outside the GTA that do not give two shits about soccer and TFC. I think support for TFC is predominantly urban,so non urban numbers really skew the results.

jloome
01-08-2016, 04:04 PM
I do not believe this poll, or the poll does not quite paint the proper picture when it comes to TFC. Lets put it this way for at least 50% of the people of the GTA football, soccer for CFL first persons, is their first sport. That is the truth. At for 50 % of people I interact on a daily basis, football is their first sport, and I interact on daily basis with people of all kinds of ethnic backgrounds. Now this does not mean that they support TFC first, most support some over overseas team first, but most of these people are aware of TFC and follow it at least casually. The only group of peope that this is not true for ( at least on a general basis) is those people who do not have relatively recent immigrant roots, and even many of these people have heard about TFC, most of these people have heard of the CFL, but support the NFL.


Now I like the CFL, I like it for the Canadiana, I am a Torontonian, and an immigrant, but I am not a big city snob, and I love most things Canadian with a long history, the CFL is it, and the Argo's and the Ti-Cats, the two "local" team have history. However, in my observations, since 2006, Football is AT LEAST the third sport among Torontonians , and TFC has the potential to be AT LEAST the third biggest franchise in the city, but it needs to do better. Unfortunately despite the widespread support for football in the Area, it is not enough to be the local team without a tradition to get the support, you must became the local team with a winning tradition. clearly we do not have that yet.

Bottom line is that football is much more popular then CFL, and therefore TFC has a a huge upside, much bigger then the CFl.s not matter what the management of the Argo's think.

I wish I had more information about the poll, but one thing I do not understand is why was in Ontario wide? I would think that there are many places outside the GTA that do not give two shits about soccer and TFC. I think support for TFC is predominantly urban,so non urban numbers really skew the results.

People need to understand: this isn't a poll of sports fans' preferences. This is a poll of the general public. At any given time, past national polls have identified that less than 35% of the general public follows professional sports.

So while they may poll at 2-4% in a national subsector poll of the general public, that can be equivalent, plus or minus, to roughly 4% to 8% of the sports market. That's probably not far off when you consider how divided attention is. Now, take away the fact that the Jays are in headlines, wherein non sports fans who have local or regional pride identify as Jays fans, and that number would probably plummet (based on other polls of sports preference) to somewhere in the high teens, low 20s.

So really, the only Toronto team to have won a title in the last quarter century would probably poll out somewhere around 20-23%; the raptors probably come in aroudn the same number. Then you have a bunch of people who love soccer but only support teams in their homeland, so soccer, which might normall come out in the mid-teens, is whittled down to its hardcore base, the same that contribute to its lousy TV numbers.

This isn't an indictment of soccer as a popular sport; it's an indictment of MLS selling the game beyond those in the stands, and, to an extent, part of the continuing failure of Canada's soccer infrastructure, its leaders, to advance knowledge and backing of the game here from our diaspora communities. Unwillingness on the part of TV to push it hard, and fighting with the stations' media parents to get coverage in their other entities, doesn't help.

trane
01-08-2016, 04:59 PM
^ This makes sense. I could also accept that the support across Ontario is 4 to 8 percent, but that most of that support is centered in urban Toronto, bringing the percentage in those areas up, not necessarily double but up.

StokeciTFC
05-03-2016, 07:06 PM
'bump', I think it's supposed to be said in this situation but may be wrong.

Purely for the sake of interest, whilst travelling the TTC today and reading the '24' free paper wax about the Raptors playoff hopes, this paragraph caught my eye with reference to who qualifies as the city's favourite team:

"It's always been assumed that the Toronto Maple Leafs is first, with the Blue Jays, Raps and TFC fighting for second place."

Recognition. Inaccurate recognition but recognition all the same and bonus.. no mention of the Argos.