MLS Changes For 2016

[OgtheDim]

http://www.mlssoccer.com/post/2015/12/05/mls-announces-possible-plans-expand-league-28-teams-scheduling-updates

Highlights:

So no more Lampard and Gerrard being injured and playing 90 3 days later.

Another 2 week break in June.

28 teams by 2020? Minnesota, Miami, Sacramento, & ?


And more TAM is coming cause, you know, LAG needs something in exchange for Gerrard having to play an extra midweek game in San Jose.

[Cashcleaner]

I think the 4th team you're thinking of is LAFC. Their inaugural season will be 2017. If I were a betting man, I'd say Miami will be the last of the four clubs to start operations. Things are moving along down in south Florida, but somewhat slowly. Also, is Sacramento confirmed? I recall someone mentioning on here a while back that the league wants LAFC well-established first before considering another team in California.

[Auzzy]

http://www.mlssoccer.com/post/2015/12/05/mls-announces-possible-plans-expand-league-28-teams-scheduling-updates

Highlights:

So no more Lampard and Gerrard being injured and playing 90 3 days later.

Another 2 week break in June.

28 teams by 2020? Minnesota, Miami, Sacramento, & ?


And more TAM is coming cause, you know, LAG needs something in exchange for Gerrard having to play an extra midweek game in San Jose.

Thanks for posting this, very interesting. I had forgotten that MLS Live was only a one-year extension. I'm afraid cord cutters like me are going to be screwed starting next season. Perhaps there won't be any way to watch the away games. I suppose I'll be giving my local bartender extra business if that's the case.

[OgtheDim]

I was already counting LAFC and Atlanta.

Sacremento has big money, lots of corporate support, a fan base and a SSS deal in place.

[spe18]

http://www.mlssoccer.com/post/2015/12/05/mls-announces-possible-plans-expand-league-28-teams-scheduling-updates

Highlights:

So no more Lampard and Gerrard being injured and playing 90 3 days later.

Another 2 week break in June.

28 teams by 2020? Minnesota, Miami, Sacramento, & ?


And more TAM is coming cause, you know, LAG needs something in exchange for Gerrard having to play an extra midweek game in San Jose.

Surprised there was no mention in that article about potential changes to the timing of the start and finish of the season.

[portu]

http://www.mlssoccer.com/post/2015/12/05/mls-announces-possible-plans-expand-league-28-teams-scheduling-updates

Highlights:

So no more Lampard and Gerrard being injured and playing 90 3 days later.

Another 2 week break in June.

28 teams by 2020? Minnesota, Miami, Sacramento, & ?


And more TAM is coming cause, you know, LAG needs something in exchange for Gerrard having to play an extra midweek game in San Jose.
I think I saw something on Twitter about a Canadian market as team 28, Calgary mentioned

[Richard]

Having 28 teams is madness, once the expansion money goes poof what then? Incredibly ridiculous.

[ag futbol]

Having 28 teams is madness, once the expansion money goes poof what then? Incredibly ridiculous.
Completely agree. Without a major overhaul in the salary structure the talent quality will be diluted to shit.

They might want to look at the NHL's experience as well. Just because you can drop franchises on a map that theoretically allows for a better TV deal doesn't mean anyone wants to watch your product.

The state of the game in North America today by no means justifies the number of teams they are proposing.

[Initial B]

I thought Garber stated that there would be no further MLS expansion into Canada, otherwise I think Ottawa would be up there for discussion.

I'm thinking that after Miami and LAFC, the next teams in order would be Sacremento and San Antonio. I'm pretty sure they want another southern team in either Charlotte or Nashville to make a rival for Atlanta. Which leaves St Louis, Indianapolis, Louisville, Cincinnati, and whatever other teams want that last spot. If there are enough teams fighting for that last spot, I could easily see MLS announcing plans for expansion to 32 teams.

[barticusz]

Really don't like the expansion idea. The only way this works and the quality remains good is if the salary cap is at least tripled. NHL is a perfect example of a diluted talent pool with too many teams and too long of a season.

[OgtheDim]

There has been a lot of chatter about a salary cap increase coming. TAM is in essence a salary cap increase. But, to me the bigger way to drive quality of players is through the academy systems and USL.


There is talk of 4 divisions of 7 each with the top 2 in each division getting a playoff spot while the next 4 in each conference get into the playoffs. You'd play each team in your division 2 times (12 games) and each other team in the league once (21). That's a manageable season but it will cut down on rivalries.

I think they would split the east this way

NER, NYCFC, NYRB, DCU, Toronto, Montreal, Philly

Columbus, Chicago, Minnesota, RSL, Colorado, SKC, (expansion team)

Miami, Orlando, Houston, Atlanta, Dallas, (expansion team), (expansion team)

Vancouver, Seattle, Portland, LAG, LAFC, Sacramento, San Jose


Of course MLS will go where the money is for the expansion teams so this could be tweaked.


I expect the 25th team to be Sacramento. The other 3 will be be whichever town has a lot of corporate support and a big money backer. In this economic climate, no way that's any Canadian team.

Indy, San Antonio & one of St. Louis or Cincy or North Carolina.

But, Indy, San Antonio & North Carolina would fit well into that system.

[james]

I don't like how fast the league is growing in Club numbers. To begin with you never see more then 24 teams in 1 division (in the UK they have Championship, League 1 and League 2 all have 24 clubs, at least that is the most I have ever herd of in 1 division, all other countries I have herd of 20,18,16,12 and 10 clubs). But more worry is just teams are not having much time to grow, to much clubs entering at to fast of a rate and that dilutes the league quality. Also I really think clubs should "HAVE TO" have a specific Soccer stadium under construction before they can enter the league. I hate how it looks in NY right now, emberasing playing at the oddly shaped Yankee stadium, and when are they actually going to get there own stadium? will they ever? Or Vancouver (it looks ok but a 20k stadium would be better) and even Seattle Sounders ( great fans, stadium looks decent, but still to big, and more importantly the Seahawks are still the main tenants, Sounders even played on a NFL covered grid iron field just a couple months back ). Slow down the league, slowly add teams if you must, make sure the team has the proper stadium in line before jumping the gun and adding more teams.

[ensco]

There is room for 128 clubs at MLS' talent level.

But if we have to win a 28 team league, it'll be 128 years I fear before we hoist the cup.

[Initial B]

I expect the 25th team to be Sacramento. The other 3 will be be whichever town has a lot of corporate support and a big money backer. In this economic climate, no way that's any Canadian team.

Indy, San Antonio & one of St. Louis or Cincy or North Carolina.

But, Indy, San Antonio & North Carolina would fit well into that system.
I expect four 7-team divisions, but i think they'll increase the number of games to 38 per season, with home and away games played against in-division teams and 5 of 7 teams in it's sister-division in conference. There would only be alternating home or away series against teams in the opposing conference. There would also be more mid-week games to balance the owners desire for games on weekends for gate receipts and network desires for mid-week games for TV ratings. I think they would look at adding teams in a geographical/time-zone grouping, North to South so that scheduling can take advantage of climates at different times of the year. Such as:

EASTERN CONFERENCE:
Atlantic: Miami, Orlando, Atlanta, NYRB, DCU, Philly, (Charlotte/Nashville)
Northeast: Columbus, Chicago, NER, Toronto, Montreal, NYCFC, (Indianapolis/St Louis/Cincinnati)
(the reason for splitting up the two NY teams is to make sure that market gets at least one home game from every team in the league once every season)
WESTERN CONFERENCE:
Central: RSL, Colorado, Houston, Dallas, SKC, Minnesota, (San Antonio/St Louis)
Pacific: Vancouver, Seattle, Portland, LAG, LAFC, Sacramento, San Jose

They would then break these groups up into eight 4-team divisions when they expand to 32 teams and schedule intra-conference games by shuffling divsions annually, like they do in the NFL without needing to add additional games to make the numbers work out better.

[Qman]

I think I saw something on Twitter about a Canadian market as team 28, Calgary mentioned

no chance for calgary, it has really struggled to support teams in the past at other levels.

[Leedsoronto]

Is it going to be standard now that the ball is not out of play unless it is kicked into the crowd and no one can get to it quick enough to score while the opposing team wait to take a throw in !! :@)

[Mateo1985]

I hate this the most:



New policy for All-Star players unable to compete in game - If a player is unable to play in the AT&T MLS All-Star Game, that player will be prohibited from playing in his next MLS match. In the event a player is declared medically fit for his match immediately following the All-Star Game, he will be precluded from playing in such match, but will receive "credit" for playing in such match for bonuses and option triggers.

So Seba this year would need to skip a vital match after the break. Not liking that idea

[Richard]

I hate this the most:



New policy for All-Star players unable to compete in game - If a player is unable to play in the AT&T MLS All-Star Game, that player will be prohibited from playing in his next MLS match. In the event a player is declared medically fit for his match immediately following the All-Star Game, he will be precluded from playing in such match, but will receive "credit" for playing in such match for bonuses and option triggers.

So Seba this year would need to skip a vital match after the break. Not liking that idea

https://s3.amazonaws.com/rapgenius/pbo-vpbiden-facepalm.jpg

[Ivy]

I hate this the most:



New policy for All-Star players unable to compete in game - If a player is unable to play in the AT&T MLS All-Star Game, that player will be prohibited from playing in his next MLS match. In the event a player is declared medically fit for his match immediately following the All-Star Game, he will be precluded from playing in such match, but will receive "credit" for playing in such match for bonuses and option triggers.

So Seba this year would need to skip a vital match after the break. Not liking that idea
He did. He didn't play vs Seattle.
But I agree, this is stupid... Are players contractually obligated to play the all star game if chosen?

[Bobo]

^ Real rotten rule. Garber during the Cup HT show says: "If a player is injured, then he's injured." Thanks Doc. Apparently he's never heard of players picking up slight knocks. If players are trying that hard to avoid the all-star game then maybe that is saying something. The league shouldn't just extort its best players. But then again, MLS owns the contracts so they can get away with it. Poor form though.

[OgtheDim]

Lampard and Gerrard were picked by Garber.

They both baled and then played.


Garber don't like being stood up.


New rule.

[ensco]

I understand it. Garber doesn't care about the all star game per se. It's about the damage to sponsor relationships. Partying with the stars at the all star game anchors the whole sales pitch.

My guess is that the Euro star players don't mind playing nearly so much as they mind that crap. They dont have to do that back home.

[Cashcleaner]

I think I saw something on Twitter about a Canadian market as team 28, Calgary mentioned

Don't think it would ever happen. Garber has pretty much declared the league is done with Canadian expansion, and I think he really means it. Toronto, Vancouver, and Montreal can all build on their local support with other fans spread out across the country, so it doesn't really bother me that much.


Having 28 teams is madness, once the expansion money goes poof what then? Incredibly ridiculous.

Yeah, I can't say I disagree. I mean, 24 clubs seems bad enough when it comes to thinning the talent pool and regional fanbases. I think there are some cities that would be great soccer towns, but it's going to require a good balancing act to keep all those franchises in good order in terms of competitiveness and profitability.

[Fort York Redcoat]

I love the fact he's had to make a rule out of this. It re-enforces and breathes fresh life into the debate they wish they didn't need to acknowledge - That you can't respect the importance of sponsor gladhanding more than, or put it above, the importance of the season.

NFL, damn you for making me compliment you, but you are the only NA sport that's got it right when it comes to All star games.

[Pint]

I love the fact he's had to make a rule out of this. It re-enforces and breathes fresh life into the debate they wish they didn't need to acknowledge - That you can't respect the importance of sponsor gladhanding more than, or put it above, the importance of the season.

NFL, damn you for making me compliment you, but you are the only NA sport that's got it right when it comes to All star games.

At least the NHL's main event of the year is now the winter classic. I wouldn't be surprised to see an "all star" type game brought in and have the event extended to a week long in the near future.

Allstar games have worn out their novelty here, the only exciting events associated with any of them are the HR contest and the dunk contest (every 3 or 4 years).

[Shway]

NFL, damn you for making me compliment you, but you are the only NA sport that's got it right when it comes to All star games.

The only thing they do right is put it at the end of the year, because throwball is an injury sport. Players are looking to injure players on tackles. They could never put this game midseason an 5 players get concussions, and 3 tear their ACLs lol. The Pro-bowl is the most unrealistic game of all the all-star games.


At least the NHL's main event of the year is now the winter classic. I wouldn't be surprised to see an "all star" type game brought in and have the event extended to a week long in the near future.

Allstar games have worn out their novelty here, the only exciting events associated with any of them are the HR contest and the dunk contest (every 3 or 4 years).

I agree. All-star games have worn out, its because in every league now (NBA, NHL) all the stars "respect each other" (if you get what I mean).
Its now about showcasing the individual skill, against others and I think this is something the MLS should tap into.

FIFA skill games would be interesting doing.

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[C.Ronaldo]

What the hell is that!

there has to be labour laws for this, how can this possibly fly through the players union as okay?

[Gazza_55]

Completely agree. Without a major overhaul in the salary structure the talent quality will be diluted to shit.

They might want to look at the NHL's experience as well. Just because you can drop franchises on a map that theoretically allows for a better TV deal doesn't mean anyone wants to watch your product.

The state of the game in North America today by no means justifies the number of teams they are proposing.



Then you're really going to hate it when there's 32 teams because that's where the league is going (minimum) and the salary budget will radically change.

And to Richard: The expansion money has nothing to do with the day-to-day operations of MLS. The fees go to the owners because as new teams enter it dilutes the current owners' share.



I think it's funny reading all the negative comments on expansion on a site of an expansion team.

[Brooker]

I think it's funny reading all the negative comments on expansion on a site of an expansion team.

Eventually you have to stop. What's so funny?

[Hamilton_Red]

I think it's OK to keep expanding - but when they hit 30 teams... Division 1 and Division 2 with promotion and relegation. Should emulate t he most successful soccer systems in the world. Our 2nd half of the season would have been so much more thrilling if we had been in relegation battles for the first 7 years.

[Yohan]

Pro/rel will never catch on with MLS. No billionaire is going to invest 100 mil+ to play 2nd div league.

Just because pro/rel is the traditional thing, it doesn't mean it's what's right.

[Qman]

I think it's OK to keep expanding - but when they hit 30 teams... Division 1 and Division 2 with promotion and relegation. Should emulate t he most successful soccer systems in the world. Our 2nd half of the season would have been so much more thrilling if we had been in relegation battles for the first 7 years.

Thats why they are paying the expansion fee ($100M) to stay Div1 for as long as the league is around.

[james]

I think it's OK to keep expanding - but when they hit 30 teams... Division 1 and Division 2 with promotion and relegation. Should emulate t he most successful soccer systems in the world. Our 2nd half of the season would have been so much more thrilling if we had been in relegation battles for the first 7 years.

it would be great if they did that...but some teams paid big money to join MLS, they will not accept being demoted to a 2nd division, they would want there $50 million back (or whatever they paid to join MLS these days). Other issues also include travel distance (USA/Canada is huge, most Europe countries are tiny) to expensive to cover travel unless they play closer teams more often , with a 2 tier system you probably couldn't gurante what teams will be in the top tier from year to year basis.

Something that would actually be more cost efficient would be just having 2 complete different League Tables. Not one built to be any better then the other, but almost 2 different leagues.

East League = 15 or 16 clubs. Single table. play each club home and away. Team that finishes in 1st place after 28 or 30 games is champions of the League like in the premiership.

West League = 15 or 16 clubs. Single table. Play each club home and away. 1st place team after 28 or 30 games is champions of the league like in the premiership.

(a system like this could even allow for up to 36-40 clubs in MLS, Meaning 18-20 clubs in each division, allowing 1 home and away season with only playing 36-38 season games with out having a completely mismatched uneven schedule that all other Pro Sports leagues in USA/Canada have)

Then when the playoffs begin either do (1st place East vs 6th place West) (2nd Place East vs 5th Place West) (3rd place East vs 4th place West) and (1st Place West vs 6th place East) (2nd West vs 5th East) (3rd place West vs 4th place East) OR just east play east and west play west until the MLS Cup final in which its a East plays West Final!

Now you still have US Open Cup games and Concacaf Champions League in which East clubs and West Clubs can play each other and other divisions and countries as well of course due to the random draws and such before the MLS Playoffs even begin. I know MLS likes to schedule a big New York vs LA game because of hoping to get high ratings, and it may mean 1 team might not play another team for years because they never draw each other in the playoffs and tournaments, but overall Id personally rather have a single table system, home and away schedule. A promotion and relegation system would be great, but that won't happen, as the League grows it is impossible to have a balanced and even schedule like you see in Europe unless maybe a straight up East and West League, could be the closest thing to a 2 tier divisiion system even tho 1 may not actually be more elite then the other?? Its actually very doable and cost efficient to form as well unlike the Promotion and relegation 2 division system.

[OgtheDim]

The desire to emulate European leagues is weird. Just do what works here. There is no need for Pro Rel. The absence of Pro Rel is not killing the game here.

[T-boy]

Pro/rel will never catch on with MLS. No billionaire is going to invest 100 mil+ to play 2nd div league.

Just because pro/rel is the traditional thing, it doesn't mean it's what's right.

Pro/Rel works in other nations because they have a long history of teams and fans. They have a large percentage of fans who are died-in-the-wool fans who will still go watch their team even when they are relegated. Portsmouth fans still go watch in large numbers even when they are relegated 3 times, for example. Rangers are an even better example.

I just can't see that being the case in the MLS - TFC are relegated and their average attendance would drop 80%.

[Qman]

you have so many weak clubs in MLS right now. Most mid-American (ex-KC / RSL) don't even get 10k a game (MLS bullshit attendance figures aside). Don't get why they are expanding (obviously its the $$$). But its better for the league long term to shed weak markets and move into stronger ones and stay around 20.

Teams are just putting expansion fees in their pockets, and when expansion stops all these teams will fold and league looks bad and more teams struggle and fold in a cascading effect. Garber isn't doing a good job for the long term sake of the league.

[Abou Sky]

At least the NHL's main event of the year is now the winter classic. I wouldn't be surprised to see an "all star" type game brought in and have the event extended to a week long in the near future.

Allstar games have worn out their novelty here, the only exciting events associated with any of them are the HR contest and the dunk contest (every 3 or 4 years).

I would find it interesting if it went back to East Vs. West. It would get rid of SOME acrimony between players who see each other at least 3x per year, and I would have someone to cheer for.

[james]

Pro/Rel works in other nations because they have a long history of teams and fans. They have a large percentage of fans who are died-in-the-wool fans who will still go watch their team even when they are relegated. Portsmouth fans still go watch in large numbers even when they are relegated 3 times, for example. Rangers are an even better example.

I just can't see that being the case in the MLS - TFC are relegated and their average attendance would drop 80%.

yes and no. When teams drop from the premiership into Championship or vise vesra, prices do often change quite a lot either increasing or decreasing and same with attendance numbers. There are some big clubs that would get big attendance no matter what division they are in (Manchester or Arsenal probably for example, just like Leafs would probably get big attendance even if they dropped a division if they had relegation), but prices would change. Other smaller clubs often would drop or gain attendance sales by 20%- 30% - 40% - 50 % when they get promoted or relegated. Portsmouth have a good hard local support club, also there stadium is only about 20k. Some other medium size clubs like Middlesbrough FC average 23k in a 34k stadium in Championship, move them up to premiership and they will sell out 34k. Same with clubs like probably Leeds, 23k average in the Championship, move them to premiership and they will sell out 37k most likely. Big differences, the hardcore fans seem to only make up half the average attendance, drop another division into League 1 and it might go even a bit lower then that. But a team like Leeds or Middlesbrough will always get at least 15k-25k, even if there were in the 4th division (League 2) and can sell out 34k and 37k stadiums in the premiership. A team like Arsenal would probably still get 50-60k in Championship and maybe even League 1. Put them in the 4th division (League 2) and hey they still probably get 40-60k. They just have a lot of fans. A smaller club that play in a 15k stadium may draw 15k in the Prem, 10k in the Championship and 5k in League 1 or League 2. It just how it is. Smaller clubs will not continue to hold such big attendance numbers.

[james]

you have so many weak clubs in MLS right now. Most mid-American (ex-KC / RSL) don't even get 10k a game (MLS bullshit attendance figures aside). Don't get why they are expanding (obviously its the $$$). But its better for the league long term to shed weak markets and move into stronger ones and stay around 20.

Teams are just putting expansion fees in their pockets, and when expansion stops all these teams will fold and league looks bad and more teams struggle and fold in a cascading effect. Garber isn't doing a good job for the long term sake of the league.

KC since they moved to there new stadium a few years ago have sold out all there games. When you see them on TV there isn't empty seats. They use to struggle a lot when they played in the NFL Kansas Chiefs stadium, then did a bit better in the small Ball Park as at least in a 11k stadium they could fill it. Now they have one of the better atmospheres in MLS in the new stadium. RSL also sold out most of there games this year. Teams that struggle more with attendance issues are Chicago, Columbus, Dallas, Colorado, New England and DC United, and you could maybe even put New York Red Bulls in there considering they have an amazing 25k stadium and have had a good team and yet still the stadium looks only half full on many occasions.

DC United will get good attendance when they move into there new stadium, I bet will get 20k a game. Some of the other teams, not so sure they will change as most of these teams I think either never will move into a proper stadium (New England), or they just built there new stadiums way to far away from the city (Chicago-Dallas-Colorado) or wrong part of town (Red Bulls in New Jersey) to maybe the city just doesn't have enough support to get high attendance numbers on average (columbus)

[Abou Sky]

This is good, but not great, I would love to see it implemented this year. It could happen during game time and posthumous yellows handed out during the game (5 minutes after incident), including FOR DIVING!



Video replay update – The MLS Board of Governors was provided an update on possible real-time video review at the meeting and will continue to evaluate a plan for the future.

[Detroit_TFC]

Big increase in TAM, announced officially today. $32M overall, $800K per team for next two years.

[james]

you have so many weak clubs in MLS right now. Most mid-American (ex-KC / RSL) don't even get 10k a game (MLS bullshit attendance figures aside). Don't get why they are expanding (obviously its the $$$). But its better for the league long term to shed weak markets and move into stronger ones and stay around 20.

Teams are just putting expansion fees in their pockets, and when expansion stops all these teams will fold and league looks bad and more teams struggle and fold in a cascading effect. Garber isn't doing a good job for the long term sake of the league.

I am worried about growing the league to quick. But so far (early stages yet) all the clubs that struggle in attendance are not new clubs. All clubs since 2007 that joined MLS like Toronto, Seattle, Vancouver, Portland, Philadelphia, Montreal have all done pretty well in drawing decent to good attendance numbers. Orlando and New York also did well on attendance this year, however it was the first year, but Orlando look like they will continue to draw good crowds in there new stadium in future years, New York is harder to tell at Yankee stadium. But exspecially Seattle and Portland have made huge impacts on the Supporters culture, with Seattle getting 36k fans a game to Portland supporters just bringing the league to another level.

[Ivy]

As mentioned above:

@kylejmccarthy: #MLS Board of Governors approved $37 million in additional spending on players Saturday - $32m on TAM, $5m on Homegrown players.

[pdubs]

www.foxsports.com/soccer/inside-mls/mls-board-of-governors-approves-additional-investment-2016-2017-seasons-120915 (http://forums.redpatchboys.ca/www.foxsports.com/soccer/inside-mls/mls-board-of-governors-approves-additional-investment-2016-2017-seasons-120915)


"The decision expands the TAM initiative after its introduction earlier this year. The initial program allowed teams to spend $500,000 over five seasons on players in that space. Although those funds still exist, they are now augmented by this new influx of TAM to increase spending power.

Clubs will receive $800,0000 in each of the next two seasons, but those funds come with strings attached. The 2016 chunk must be committed by the conclusion of the 2017 secondary transfer window, while the 2017 portion must be committed by the conclusion of the 2018 secondary window."

[Detroit_TFC]

Here is the 2015 roster language regarding TAM:

Targeted Allocation Money
Announced on July 8, 2015, each MLS club will receive $100,000 per year for the next five years ($500,000 total) in additional funds, referred to as Targeted Allocation Money, to invest in their roster outside of the player salary budget.
Targeted Allocation Money may be used in four ways:


Clubs may use the funds to sign a new player provided his salary and acquisition costs are more than the maximum salary budget.

Clubs may re-sign an existing player provided he is earning more than the maximum salary budget.

Clubs may buy down the budget charge of an existing Designated Player (no longer making that player a DP) provided the club concurrently signs a new Designated Player at an investment equal to or greater than the player he is replacing.

Clubs may trade their Targeted Allocation Money to another club.

MLS clubs may bring forward a portion or all of their allotted Targeted Allocation Money, up to $500,000, to be used in a single season on up to three players.

Targeted Allocation Money and general Allocation Money may not be used in combination when signing or re-signing a player, or when buying down the budget charge of a Designated Player. Either Targeted Allocation Money or general Allocation Money may be used on a player in a single season, not both.

While MLS clubs are not required to use their full $100,000 each season, they are required to use the remaining amount (of the annual $100,000) during the following year.

[pdubs]

good ol Kantari

https://twitter.com/kylejmccarthy/status/674674443046653952

[Pint]

Can anyone answer these questions:

1. TAM buys players down to max budget charge, then regular allocation needed to further reduce charge?
2. Does the 800k for this year need to be used up this season? or can it carry over?

[Pint]

good ol Kantari

https://twitter.com/kylejmccarthy/status/674674443046653952

I thought it was clearly stated after the transfer deadline that we didn't use TAM

[Detroit_TFC]

Can anyone answer these questions:

1. TAM buys players down to max budget charge, then regular allocation needed to further reduce charge?
2. Does the 800k for this year need to be used up this season? or can it carry over?

Can't combine TAM and regular allocation on single player, at least per 2015 roster rules.

[Jack]

Thanks for posting this, very interesting. I had forgotten that MLS Live was only a one-year extension. I'm afraid cord cutters like me are going to be screwed starting next season. Perhaps there won't be any way to watch the away games. I suppose I'll be giving my local bartender extra business if that's the case.
Where is there mention of MLS Live?

[Qman]

KC since they moved to there new stadium a few years ago have sold out all there games. When you see them on TV there isn't empty seats. They use to struggle a lot when they played in the NFL Kansas Chiefs stadium, then did a bit better in the small Ball Park as at least in a 11k stadium they could fill it. Now they have one of the better atmospheres in MLS in the new stadium. RSL also sold out most of there games this year. Teams that struggle more with attendance issues are Chicago, Columbus, Dallas, Colorado, New England and DC United, and you could maybe even put New York Red Bulls in there considering they have an amazing 25k stadium and have had a good team and yet still the stadium looks only half full on many occasions.

DC United will get good attendance when they move into there new stadium, I bet will get 20k a game. Some of the other teams, not so sure they will change as most of these teams I think either never will move into a proper stadium (New England), or they just built there new stadiums way to far away from the city (Chicago-Dallas-Colorado) or wrong part of town (Red Bulls in New Jersey) to maybe the city just doesn't have enough support to get high attendance numbers on average (columbus)

my whole point was excluding KC and RSL

[Areathrasher]

I thought it was clearly stated after the transfer deadline that we didn't use TAM

Yea, i'm not sure about this.

Everytime TAM was used it was disclosed in the press release, there was no such wording in Kantari's.

[james]

my whole point was excluding KC and RSL

My bad, I read it wrong, I thot you were saying an example - RSL and Kansas had bad attendance.

[Detroit_TFC]

Here is the press release on the new TAM (incl some changes from 2015 rules on use):

http://pressbox.mlssoccer.com/content/mls-increases-investment-players

[Qman]

Whats the whole reason for TAM again? I thought was to allow clubs to go beyond the cap to stop potential poaching from MX that can easily pay players more than 457k

[james]

I expect four 7-team divisions, but i think they'll increase the number of games to 38 per season, with home and away games played against in-division teams and 5 of 7 teams in it's sister-division in conference. There would only be alternating home or away series against teams in the opposing conference. There would also be more mid-week games to balance the owners desire for games on weekends for gate receipts and network desires for mid-week games for TV ratings. I think they would look at adding teams in a geographical/time-zone grouping, North to South so that scheduling can take advantage of climates at different times of the year. Such as:

EASTERN CONFERENCE:
Atlantic: Miami, Orlando, Atlanta, NYRB, DCU, Philly, (Charlotte/Nashville)
Northeast: Columbus, Chicago, NER, Toronto, Montreal, NYCFC, (Indianapolis/St Louis/Cincinnati)
(the reason for splitting up the two NY teams is to make sure that market gets at least one home game from every team in the league once every season)
WESTERN CONFERENCE:
Central: RSL, Colorado, Houston, Dallas, SKC, Minnesota, (San Antonio/St Louis)
Pacific: Vancouver, Seattle, Portland, LAG, LAFC, Sacramento, San Jose

They would then break these groups up into eight 4-team divisions when they expand to 32 teams and schedule intra-conference games by shuffling divsions annually, like they do in the NFL without needing to add additional games to make the numbers work out better.

I think if it got to 30 or more clubs just make it simple, 1 League table for East and 1 League table for the West. East Division play East teams 1 home/1 Away. West teams play each other 1 Home/ 1 Away. Example :

East League
.............................GP..........PTS
1) **Toronto.......... 30..........68
2) *NYRB.................30..........59
3) *DC United...........30..........55
4) *Columbus...........30..........54
5) * Kansas City.......30..........52
6) * Montreal...........30..........50
7) Philadelphia..........30...........49
8) NYC....................30...........47
9) Orlando...............30...........45
10) Atlanta..............30...........43
11) New England.......30...........41
12) Chicago..............30...........38
13) Miami..................30..........38
14) St.Louis..............30...........35
15) Cinncinati............30...........31
16) Ottawa...............30............28

** League Champions
* Playoff Birth

West League

...............................GP...............PT S
1)** Portland.............28...............60
2) * Seattle...............28...............57
3) *Vancouver............28...............55
4) * LA Galaxy.............28...............53
5) * Dallas..................28...............53
6) * San Jose.............28................50
7) Houston..................28...............49
8) San Antonio.............28...............46
9) Colorado.................28...............46
10) Minnesota.............28................43
11) RSL......................28................39
12) LA 2......................28...............36
13) Edmonton...............28...............33
14) Sacramneto............28................31
15) San Diego...............28................28

** League Champions
* Playoff Birth Spot

Playoffs=
1st place and 2nd place East teams get a bye
1st place and 2nd place West teams get a bye.

3rd East vs 6th West
4th East vs 5th West
3rd West vs 6th East
4th West vs 5th East

and playoffs continue from there forward exc. in which after the 1st round East teams can play East teams and west teams can play West teams after the first round of playoffs depending on the draws. (OR just have East play East and West play West all the way until the MLS CUp final)

Season East and West Clubs do not play each other. However Concacaf Champions League, US Open Cup and MLS playoffs West and East teams can play each other depending on what draw they get.

This would make the League format way less confusing and a more balanced schedule. Even if you had 15 clubs in West and 16 in the East it would not matter as they are competing during the season in different League tables. It would create the single league table we all want with a home and away schedule (Relegation/promotion will not happen in MLS). It creates less costs on taveling from east cost to west coast and it creates an even table unlike the confusing North East, North West, Central exc divisions where some teams play each other 2 times, others 1 time while other teams they don't play at all.

This also balances the amount of season games played well. MLS has a very busy schedule with Euro and World Cups. Concacaf Champions League, US Open Cup and MLS Playoff games. And then you have cities with awful winters. It really makes the ideal amount of season games played probably between 28-34 games. 30-32 being best options. And it maintains a simple League table, home and away.

The only thing I could see MLS reject such a simple format as this is they would not have a season LA vs NY game that they seem to crave for because they are the 2 biggest markets in the country even tho reality can be more people might watch Seattle vs Portland or Toronto vs Montreal then this imaginary LA/NY high ratings market Derby, or the fact that say LA Galaxy was to get another Beckham player, what if he couldn't play teams in the East during the schedule??? me personally I wouldn't care. This would just be more simple.

[jloome]

Pro/rel will never catch on with MLS. No billionaire is going to invest 100 mil+ to play 2nd div league.

Just because pro/rel is the traditional thing, it doesn't mean it's what's right.

This argument ignores that the same people invest in Europe, in teams that go up and down all the time and lose tons of money. Or that MLS is basically designed to lose money on purpose, and that it hasn't stopped Franchise fees from skyrocketing anyway for the very reason that it's advantageous to some.

And it doesn't mean relegation is wrong, either.

What, exactly, do people in NA have against the idea of turning the bottom of the table into a race? I don't get it.

[Auzzy]

Where is there mention of MLS Live?

Interesting, I believe there was something about the broadcast & streaming situation in the original article when OgtheDim first posted it...? Now I can't see anything, so I'm not sure. However, I did notice that the date on the article at http://www.mlssoccer.com/post/2015/12/05/mls-announces-possible-plans-expand-league-28-teams-scheduling-updates is December 6, 2015, 3:05 PM EST.

OgtheDim's original post, which contained this link, was actually earlier than that: 12-05-2015, 06:24 PM. So maybe MLS edited the article later after posting it...???

[WestStandGeoff]

What, exactly, do people in NA have against the idea of turning the bottom of the table into a race? I don't get it.

IMO, I think it has to do with the fact people generally don't support leagues in NA other than "top" leagues. Prime example in Toronto that likes to think it's mad about hockey, but in reality it's all about the Leafs - you can generally walk up to the ticket counter when the Marlies are in the conference finals and watch a game for face value. I never understood why, as I enjoy Marlies games and the value-for-money is off the charts compared to going to the ACC... not as many chances to be seen by the cool kids though, and definitely not something people tend to brag about doing...

Triple-A baseball gets a fraction of the attendance that MLB teams do.
AHL teams generally don't get great attendance.
NBA D-league isn't very well attended.
Doesn't seem to be anything other than NFL for American football.

[Richard]

American's support college and high schools teams so I don't see how they don't support leagues other than the top. You could argue that college football is more popular than the NFL and is a ridiculous money maker right now.

Who knows what will happen 10-20 years from now.

[notthesun]

College sports like NCAA football and basketball are basically professional, let's be honest. Everything, literally everything, about them is professional-grade except the player salaries.

As T-boy alluded to above there's no culture of supporting lower tier sports in NA like there is in Europe. A relegated MLS team would lose a massive chunk of their attendance, and their TV deal. MLS is not even close to ready for a pro/rel system.

[james]

College sports like NCAA football and basketball are basically professional, let's be honest. Everything, literally everything, about them is professional-grade except the player salaries.

As T-boy alluded to above there's no culture of supporting lower tier sports in NA like there is in Europe. A relegated MLS team would lose a massive chunk of their attendance, and their TV deal. MLS is not even close to ready for a pro/rel system.

that is not true, only a fraction of those College players make it to NBA or NFL or NHL, all the sports are like that. When you look at how many college teams there are, a lot of them actually have no chance of winning, majority of the colleges are like League 1 or Championship teams in England, decent support, but very unlikely to really win anything. There is something like over 100 teams in College Football and I think Basketball to. Some teams in America Football college get 110k fans a game, some get 70k, some 50k, some play in 40 k stadiums and its half empty, some play in 20k stadiums...what you see on TV in Canada on American TV channels is generally the biggest college teams. But there are a lot of smaller local teams who don't sell out stadiums all the time and don't play in 100k stadiums, a lot of the teams are very local, like you see in most Soccer teams in Europe outside of the big clubs. I think The Big 10 in American College football is like your Arsenal, Munich, Chelsea, AC Milan, or PSG. But there are many others that aren't big like them. The crazy thing is, its COLLEGE, they aren't even pros yet. Tho there is some illegeal money dealing and such that goes on in College sports, just like I know the Italian League has been fixed for years by the Mafia!

Also as I mentioned before in this thread...teams that get relegated often do actually lose a big chunk of attendance and money when relegated. An example (and there are many many examples like this) Middlesbrough FC use to get 34k fans in the Premiership, when in championship they now get 23k attendance on average. The prices also dropped. And some teams in England and other countries actually have it even worse when relegated. However I do get your point, some MLS teams would be in even a worse scenerio then Middlesbrough if relegated. As some MLS teams struggle as it is. A relegation might cripple many teams in MLS.

[james]

This argument ignores that the same people invest in Europe, in teams that go up and down all the time and lose tons of money. Or that MLS is basically designed to lose money on purpose, and that it hasn't stopped Franchise fees from skyrocketing anyway for the very reason that it's advantageous to some.

And it doesn't mean relegation is wrong, either.

What, exactly, do people in NA have against the idea of turning the bottom of the table into a race? I don't get it.

I think your fans who will support the team no matter what type of mentality (Like your Supporter groups) actually want a promotion/relegation system to be more like Europe. However a lot of us who want that system also realize a lot of the owners would not like this system. The reality is, when a team goes down a division, attendance drops, prices are lowered, and a team often has to lose players. This system survives in many Europe countries because it has always been this way, but that said some clubs really struggle once relegated, sometimes go bankrupt and drop further, however these teams usually carry on no matter what even if they have to go to a 4th division and charge a fraction of what they use charge for tickets and profits and try to fight there way back up. American pro sports set-up is designed to never lose money, always try to gain money, if a team loses to much they must be moved, they usually don't accept a team losing attendance numbers and price dropping year after year. They usually try to prevent a team ever going bankrupt. I think even in Europe some of your big team owners would actually prefer to never be able to be relegated, but the system is there, and has been for a long time, so they realize it won't be changed. The problem with a club like Dallas FC or Columbus or Colorado droping a division might mean attendance going from 14k to 7k and prices droping to...can the team continue to pay for the stadium? or TV revenue? the question is, with the way MLS is set-up could some of these teams actually survive a relegation?? I personally think it wouldn't survive. (that said who knows its also never been tried). I also wouild love a relegation/promotion set-up. But I just don't see it happening. You also have other issues like what if a bunch of East division clubs get relegated...would it make travel cost to expensive to have some east teams constantly traveling west because they had more teams that survive the top flight?? does that mess up there time zones and tv schedules?

Its more complicated over here I think.

[Gazza_55]

you have so many weak clubs in MLS right now. Most mid-American (ex-KC / RSL) don't even get 10k a game (MLS bullshit attendance figures aside). Don't get why they are expanding (obviously its the $$$). But its better for the league long term to shed weak markets and move into stronger ones and stay around 20.

Teams are just putting expansion fees in their pockets, and when expansion stops all these teams will fold and league looks bad and more teams struggle and fold in a cascading effect. Garber isn't doing a good job for the long term sake of the league.

List the team's putting expansion fees in their pockets instead of spending it on players, academies or stadiums.

[OgtheDim]

Interesting, I believe there was something about the broadcast & streaming situation in the original article when OgtheDim first posted it...? Now I can't see anything, so I'm not sure. However, I did notice that the date on the article at http://www.mlssoccer.com/post/2015/12/05/mls-announces-possible-plans-expand-league-28-teams-scheduling-updates is December 6, 2015, 3:05 PM EST.

OgtheDim's original post, which contained this link, was actually earlier than that: 12-05-2015, 06:24 PM. So maybe MLS edited the article later after posting it...???

The article I posted was put out by a Philly based soccer reporter who analyses the game as a whole.

[notthesun]

Some teams in America Football college get 110k fans a game, some get 70k, some 50k, some play in 40 k stadiums and its half empty, some play in 20k stadiums...what you see on TV in Canada on American TV channels is generally the biggest college teams. But there are a lot of smaller local teams who don't sell out stadiums all the time and don't play in 100k stadiums, a lot of the teams are very local, like you see in most Soccer teams in Europe outside of the big clubs. I think The Big 10 in American College football is like your Arsenal, Munich, Chelsea, AC Milan, or PSG. But there are many others that aren't big like them.

But that's my point. The biggest teams get huge support, TV ratings, and collectively bring in billions of dollars. The smaller teams don't do quite as well. Same as any other sport in NA. Top tier teams succeed and lower tier teams struggle.

I agree there are examples in Europe of relegation really hurting clubs, but by and large they are able to get by. As you say I don't think the same could be said of relegated MLS teams.

[Fort York Redcoat]

Pro Rel is more interesting but not to most people who live here.

Both that structure and the Playoff system and league structure we have here have serious faults.


This is so off season..

[ag futbol]

The people who are investing in Europe would love to get rid of promotion / relegation if they could.

Why this conversation comes up I have no idea. This is a league founded to be a business and has nothing to do with tradition.

There's no business case for it. It's a value destructor to clubs and with TV deals (which need to guarantee the presence of big markets).

[jabbronies]

I wouldn't watch a relegated TFC - I say this now but who knows how I'll feel if it did.

But as it stands, I'm already having a hard time watching the crap football TFC produces. To go down a division and watch even crappier footy...not my cup of tea.

Add to the fact a lot of the footy in NA isn't run by footy people. It's run by businessmen. A relegated team may never get a chance to come back up with business being the first priority.

If you want to see how a footy team in Europe run by a businessman with no footy knowledge is run , look at Newcastle United. It's a train wreck. Money doesn't solve all problems. Knowledge of the game is key to winning.

I just don't think NA has enough of the brains to deal with the consequences of relegation.

[Qman]

The people who are investing in Europe would love to get rid of promotion / relegation if they could.

Why this conversation comes up I have no idea. This is a league founded to be a business and has nothing to do with tradition.

There's no business case for it. It's a value destructor to clubs and with TV deals (which need to guarantee the presence of big markets).


like in scotland, where it almost killed their league

[Initial B]

^ Well, without a salary cap, the Rangers just about died. But at least 6 other teams went through insolvency.

[kodiakTFC]

New DCU crest.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CV6B6BWWIAgVY4o.png

[james]

But that's my point. The biggest teams get huge support, TV ratings, and collectively bring in billions of dollars. The smaller teams don't do quite as well. Same as any other sport in NA. Top tier teams succeed and lower tier teams struggle.

I agree there are examples in Europe of relegation really hurting clubs, but by and large they are able to get by. As you say I don't think the same could be said of relegated MLS teams.

but in Europe there is big clubs in each league, reality is most Leagues only have 3 or 4 big clubs that could ever win a season. The smaller clubs are often more small time locally supported, and even then in those same local communities you will find a whole pile of fans who don't support the smaller local club but instead support your Man United, Chelsea, Liverpool or Arsenal, and other countries in Europe are the same way. Most clubs in Europe do not have the support or money to compete at a level of the big clubs. I wouldn't exactly say Europe can handle relegation much better then in North America, I guess the only difference in North America is a team folds and moves to another city, that is just a very rare thing in Europe, its like they just don't let them move, in North America the league encourages the move if the team can not compete financially!

[Kaz]

Regulation won't happen here.

The average travel distance just for the MLS season is similar to that of Champions and Europa League. Our Champions League play is nearly double.

You can have regulation when half the teams you play are within 300-400km and are 1100km at most away. In MLS Atlanta will have 17 teams over 1000km away, 6 of which will be over 3,000km (about the same as Lisbon playing in Russia) Just in the conferences the travel is further than most Euro leagues.

Which is part of the reason the franchise system developed.. because it is part of the realities of how large our countries are, to have national rather than regional leagues.

Can you imagine having to redraw conferences every year because Toronto and and Philly get Relegated and Sacramento and Reno get promoted? The simple reality is that as much as people think that just because it is done in Europe it should be done here... doesn't mean it makes sense nor is it needed.

[Fort York Redcoat]

Can you imagine having to redraw conferences every year because Toronto and and Philly get Relegated and Sacramento and Reno get promoted? The simple reality is that as much as people think that just because it is done in Europe it should be done here... doesn't mean it makes sense nor is it needed.

I'm imagining it right now...

MAJESTIC.

http://dxe5lcrjpy7emwfo.zippykid.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/tumblr_inline_nq4prkyBpj1t26qoy_500.gif

Back to the flimsy league expansion reasons...


https://media.giphy.com/media/plrhd7RveGGZy/giphy.gif


Here's to the short term!!!

[jloome]

Can you imagine having to redraw conferences every year because Toronto and and Philly get Relegated and Sacramento and Reno get promoted? The simple reality is that as much as people think that just because it is done in Europe it should be done here... doesn't mean it makes sense nor is it needed.

Given that the last poll on MLSsoccer.com and the last two polls on SBI all indicated that the majority of MLS fans clearly want single-table, that's not really an issue either. It's one thing to resist outside culture, it's another thing to do it without purpose. This has been polled repeatedly; Ives Galarcep didn't believe it either, so he polled his readers, got thousands of responses, and it was clear most MLS fans want both relegation AND single table.

MLS will accelerate the process of being taken seriously when Juventus fans in New York start going to Red Bull and NYFC games, not just exhibitions against their favorite teams from Italy. They won't do that if they think the sport, as presented at its highest level, is disrespected or sold short. That's always been the case.

I'm not saying it has to happen. But it will accelerate the support and improvement of soccer in NA. And it doesn't have to be simple, or even common. The conditions can be onerous, such as a clear league win, plus beating the relegated team from above in a home-and-away, plus having a minimum season ticket base. But as long as the possibility exists, the regular season means something for the bottom half of the table in a league about to expand to TWENTY-EIGHT teams. Think about that; for 16 sets of fans, the league will mean nothing (because the SS basically means nothing): it won't determine a league winner, it won't determine a relegation fight, and it won't provide a chance to win a cup.

YOu want serious fans involved, give them impetus, good or bad. Make the whole Cosmos thing mean someting. Make the Austin fight mean something. Bring in smaller communities (that are still very large cities) by giving them hope. Football in Europe lives and dies on local club support; that has to happen here before it will ever reach the top level (let alone by MLS' 2022 goal). But it won't if so much of the season is meaningless, or if it's assumed all fans are fairweather and have no club culture to keep them with a relegated side.

EDIT: You can even use revenue pooling to avoid serious financial losses to relegated teams for a certain period. There are many steps available to mitigate the "they'll lose more money" thing. When you consider how many U.S. MLS teams seem to DELIBERATELY lose as much as possible, you have to wonder based on American tax code how much of it is just a dodge anyway for much larger financial entities.

[Prof]

Completely agree. Without a major overhaul in the salary structure the talent quality will be diluted to shit.

They might want to look at the NHL's experience as well. Just because you can drop franchises on a map that theoretically allows for a better TV deal doesn't mean anyone wants to watch your product.

The state of the game in North America today by no means justifies the number of teams they are proposing.


This is soccer (football) where almost every country on the planet plays the sport. A little scouting and there are more than enough quality players to fill up 28 teams. This is not American football, baseball or hockey where there is a shortage of talent because only a handful of countries play the sport and 40+ year old are still playing. The funny thing is that the haters call MLS a retirement league but their sport has many more retirement aged players. This is fact.

[Beach_Red]

Pro Rel is more interesting but not to most people who live here.

Both that structure and the Playoff system and league structure we have here have serious faults.


This is so off season..

But this is the year we really figure it out.

[Kaz]

Given that the last poll on MLSsoccer.com and the last two polls on SBI all indicated that the majority of MLS fans clearly want single-table, that's not really an issue either. It's one thing to resist outside culture, it's another thing to do it without purpose. This has been polled repeatedly; Ives Galarcep didn't believe it either, so he polled his readers, got thousands of responses, and it was clear most MLS fans want both relegation AND single table.

MLS will accelerate the process of being taken seriously when Juventus fans in New York start going to Red Bull and NYFC games, not just exhibitions against their favorite teams from Italy. They won't do that if they think the sport, as presented at its highest level, is disrespected or sold short. That's always been the case.

I'm not saying it has to happen. But it will accelerate the support and improvement of soccer in NA. And it doesn't have to be simple, or even common. The conditions can be onerous, such as a clear league win, plus beating the relegated team from above in a home-and-away, plus having a minimum season ticket base. But as long as the possibility exists, the regular season means something for the bottom half of the table in a league about to expand to TWENTY-EIGHT teams. Think about that; for 16 sets of fans, the league will mean nothing (because the SS basically means nothing): it won't determine a league winner, it won't determine a relegation fight, and it won't provide a chance to win a cup.

YOu want serious fans involved, give them impetus, good or bad. Make the whole Cosmos thing mean someting. Make the Austin fight mean something. Bring in smaller communities (that are still very large cities) by giving them hope. Football in Europe lives and dies on local club support; that has to happen here before it will ever reach the top level (let alone by MLS' 2022 goal). But it won't if so much of the season is meaningless, or if it's assumed all fans are fairweather and have no club culture to keep them with a relegated side.

EDIT: You can even use revenue pooling to avoid serious financial losses to relegated teams for a certain period. There are many steps available to mitigate the "they'll lose more money" thing. When you consider how many U.S. MLS teams seem to DELIBERATELY lose as much as possible, you have to wonder based on American tax code how much of it is just a dodge anyway for much larger financial entities.


Take a single table then.. that means every team plays every other team equally.

That means West Coast and East Coast times all fly the 3,500km 6-11 times a year and at 22 teams you have a 42 game season. Fans are seldom the best people to talk to about what makes financial sense. North American Sport has been developed by the Dollars and Cents of National Leagues that are the size of Europe. Where as Europe teams have been developed via leagues that are the are smaller than Manitoba with many teams very close together over all teams rarely have to travel further than 1000km..(often round trip) Most clubs have several clubs within 100km of them. MLS has one team (philly) that has 3 MLS teams within 200km (NYRB, NYCFC, DC). The Premier Leagues currently has two groups of 4+ teams where they are all within 50KM (approx) of each other (London, and Manchester/Liverpool)

The Economic burden of just a single Table is high.. which is why the NHL, MLB, NFL, NBA, and NCAA all have divisions inside the Conferences. (at least at the beginning)

It may be possible at some point.. but not today..


It is just fans that think the Euro way is the right way... which is what leads to insolvent clubs.

[bgnewf]

The BIGGER issue where do you relegate to. USL? NASL? Some Nascent Canadian League? Not likely. Owners paying tens of milions in expansion fees (let alone the cost of running a club) would never sign off on TRUE pro/rel.

Pro/Rel in the MLS context only works in an 'artificial' way..... you have to tie it into both how MLS would want to set up regular season and playoffs going forward. Here is a hypothetical I've been thinking of about how it could work:

You could setup say a 'MLS1' and 'MLS2' League comprised of the current and future league franchises. Expand to 28/30 clubs and split em into two 'leagues' - Top tier and bottom tier - everybody plays the traditional 1 home 1 away schedule within their own tier. Expansion clubs join MLS2. Top three MLS2 clubs in regular season get promoted to MLS1. Bottom three in MLS1 get sent packing to MLS2. Just like Europe and would appeal to the traditionalists. Puts a much higher emphasis on the regular season results (not just those at the top of the table) and gives us what many of us love about pro/rel in Europe, meaningful games at the end of the season even for clubs not in the playoff picture.

You could even increase the emphasis on the Cup competitions (Voyageurs Cup and US Open Cup) by granting winners (if applicable) promotion or an exemption from relegation.

You could also have a playoff structure for each tier where a proportionally larger number of MLS1 clubs and a smaller number of MLS2 clubs make the season ending playoffs. There could even be some number of crossover regular season games between MLS1 and MLS2 to cater to local rivalries that might be impacted by the historical or geographic rivals that currently exist in the two tiers not playing each other as often as the league would like.

Just spit-balling here but there ARE options (Many of them if you truly think about it) if the league and the owners want to think creatively about changing the league setup. At the end of the day 'success' does not necessarily begin and end with winning or losing MLS Cup in a pro/rel world. Winning promotion - avoiding relegation - winning a cup exemption - playoffs - more MEANINGFUL matches for MORE teams means more excitement for everybody in my opinion.

[Kamp Berg]

The BIGGER issue where do you relegate to. USL? NASL? Some Nascent Canadian League? Not likely. Owners paying tens of milions in expansion fees (let alone the cost of running a club) would never sign off on TRUE pro/rel.

Pro/Rel in the MLS context only works in an 'artificial' way..... you have to tie it into both how MLS would want to set up regular season and playoffs going forward. Here is a hypothetical I've been thinking of about how it could work:

You could setup say a 'MLS1' and 'MLS2' League comprised of the current and future league franchises. Expand to 28/30 clubs and split em into two 'leagues' - Top tier and bottom tier - everybody plays the traditional 1 home 1 away schedule within their own tier. Expansion clubs join MLS2. Top three MLS2 clubs in regular season get promoted to MLS1. Bottom three in MLS1 get sent packing to MLS2. Just like Europe and would appeal to the traditionalists. Puts a much higher emphasis on the regular season results (not just those at the top of the table) and gives us what many of us love about pro/rel in Europe, meaningful games at the end of the season even for clubs not in the playoff picture.

You could even increase the emphasis on the Cup competitions (Voyageurs Cup and US Open Cup) by granting winners (if applicable) promotion or an exemption from relegation.

You could also have a playoff structure for each tier where a proportionally larger number of MLS1 clubs and a smaller number of MLS2 clubs make the season ending playoffs. There could even be some number of crossover regular season games between MLS1 and MLS2 to cater to local rivalries that might be impacted by the two tiers not playing each other as often as the league would like.

Just spit-balling here but there ARE options (Many of them if you truly think about it) if the league and the owners want to think creatively about changing the league setup. At the end of the day 'success' does not necessarily begin and end with winning or losing MLS Cup in a pro/rel world. Winning promotion - avoiding relegation - winning a cup exemption - playoffs - more MEANINGFUL matches for MORE teams means more excitement for everybody in my opinion.

Great ideas! Hopefully someone from mls sees your post!

[PAOK17]

I wonder how the old MLB model would work with two separate leagues: one in the East, the other in the West. The teams in each league would only play within each other and the league champions would play each other in a two legged final or something. It worked in the MLB for many years (still kind of has that structure but now has interleague play). If there honestly demand to have well over 30+ teams (very possible when you consider Canadian teams that would also want in), then this would make sense. You could have two 16 or 18 team leagues, have a balanced schedule, reduce travel, and have single tables. But it would be built on a model that has been done in North America before. Also, the concept of two independent "conferences" has been and is still used in lower divisions in Europe. The Greek second division uses this.

You could use playoffs if you still want to determine the two league champions or stick to single table and you also don't need relegation/promotion because you can accommodate more top division teams this way.

The flaws in this model is that the league likes selling it's stars, and this system would mean some teams would never see a Giovinco, or Kaka because some teams would never play each other. But the way the MLS is going, it's likely that's going to happen anyway. You would need a 40 game season if you want to play everyone outside your conference once, and everyone in it twice if there are 28 teams.

I'm thinking out loud of course.

[Hamilton_Red]

Any idea when the 2016 schedule will be announced?

[Hamilton_Red]

The BIGGER issue where do you relegate to. USL? NASL? Some Nascent Canadian League? Not likely. Owners paying tens of milions in expansion fees (let alone the cost of running a club) would never sign off on TRUE pro/rel.

Pro/Rel in the MLS context only works in an 'artificial' way..... you have to tie it into both how MLS would want to set up regular season and playoffs going forward. Here is a hypothetical I've been thinking of about how it could work:

You could setup say a 'MLS1' and 'MLS2' League comprised of the current and future league franchises. Expand to 28/30 clubs and split em into two 'leagues' - Top tier and bottom tier - everybody plays the traditional 1 home 1 away schedule within their own tier. Expansion clubs join MLS2. Top three MLS2 clubs in regular season get promoted to MLS1. Bottom three in MLS1 get sent packing to MLS2. Just like Europe and would appeal to the traditionalists. Puts a much higher emphasis on the regular season results (not just those at the top of the table) and gives us what many of us love about pro/rel in Europe, meaningful games at the end of the season even for clubs not in the playoff picture.

You could even increase the emphasis on the Cup competitions (Voyageurs Cup and US Open Cup) by granting winners (if applicable) promotion or an exemption from relegation.

You could also have a playoff structure for each tier where a proportionally larger number of MLS1 clubs and a smaller number of MLS2 clubs make the season ending playoffs. There could even be some number of crossover regular season games between MLS1 and MLS2 to cater to local rivalries that might be impacted by the historical or geographic rivals that currently exist in the two tiers not playing each other as often as the league would like.

Just spit-balling here but there ARE options (Many of them if you truly think about it) if the league and the owners want to think creatively about changing the league setup. At the end of the day 'success' does not necessarily begin and end with winning or losing MLS Cup in a pro/rel world. Winning promotion - avoiding relegation - winning a cup exemption - playoffs - more MEANINGFUL matches for MORE teams means more excitement for everybody in my opinion.

I think it will make more money... if you have ever been to an NFL game where the home team is 2-12 or even worse a baseball game where the home team is 40-70 with 2 months still to go ... it is unbelievably boring & bad for business. Relegation is both a motivator and and a consequence for ineptitude. Relegation battles give some excitement to poor team lat e in the season ..it rewards never give up attitude and mid-season improvements. I don't buy those..crazy European ideas won't work here narratives. Heck we invented this place...well at least stole it from the original owners.

[Pint]

Any idea when the 2016 schedule will be announced?

Last year it was Jan 7th. I would imagine it's the same this time

[Fort York Redcoat]

Does anyone think that Pro/Rel could ever happen but the All Star game and friendlies still exist?

Just saying changing the all star game and friendlies in mid season would be indicative of a shift in priority that would be more likely to happen and while it wouldn't be a necessary step to precede Pro/Rel it would be the indicative priority shift IMO.

Until that kind of discussion seriously gets further outside of forums I think that kind of talk is premature.

[Beach_Red]

I just hope the pro/rel gets worked out one way or the other soon because the constant discussion is not good for the league. It's too divisive. Here are some quotes I took just from this thread (I can't imagine going over past threads on this issue):


"Pro Rel is more interesting but not to most people who live here."

"I just don't think NA has enough of the brains to deal with the consequences of relegation."


"You want serious fans involved..."


Those kinds of statements divide fans here and ranks some as smarter, more serious, better, than others. And it's true, I think, there are two groups of fans and maybe neither group on its own is enough to grow MLS to where people want it to be.


I can say, as someone who was born and grew up here and had little involvement with the sport before TFC that I was interested for a while but I drifted away. These kinds of discussions, these kinds of dividing fans and, frankly, the constant refrain about how stupid we are in NA gets to be too much. We have baseball, the NFL, the NBA and NHL, plenty of other sports to follow. Why follow one that doesn't want you?


I hope MLS continues to grow and becomes a major sport in NA but it faces a lot of competition. It's not inevitable that it be successful.


But then there are things like this in the thread also, so that's good:


"The desire to emulate European leagues is weird. Just do what works here. There is no need for Pro Rel. The absence of Pro Rel is not killing the game here."

[Oldtimer]

I like how a thread on new MLS rules gets derailed into the perpetual off season thread on promotion/relegation.

[Fort York Redcoat]

I just hope the pro/rel gets worked out one way or the other soon because the constant discussion is not good for the league. It's too divisive. Here are some quotes I took just from this thread (I can't imagine going over past threads on this issue):


"Pro Rel is more interesting but not to most people who live here."

"I just don't think NA has enough of the brains to deal with the consequences of relegation."


"You want serious fans involved..."


Those kinds of statements divide fans here and ranks some as smarter, more serious, better, than others. And it's true, I think, there are two groups of fans and maybe neither group on its own is enough to grow MLS to where people want it to be.


I can say, as someone who was born and grew up here and had little involvement with the sport before TFC that I was interested for a while but I drifted away. These kinds of discussions, these kinds of dividing fans and, frankly, the constant refrain about how stupid we are in NA gets to be too much. We have baseball, the NFL, the NBA and NHL, plenty of other sports to follow. Why follow one that doesn't want you?


I hope MLS continues to grow and becomes a major sport in NA but it faces a lot of competition. It's not inevitable that it be successful.


But then there are things like this in the thread also, so that's good:


"The desire to emulate European leagues is weird. Just do what works here. There is no need for Pro Rel. The absence of Pro Rel is not killing the game here."



Well that's pretty damning. There's plenty of talk in here about future league expansion and creative salary changes in a young league that has a diverse fan base.

Apparently I need to be even more more moderate in my phrasing.

ProRel may be more interesting to some here yet that has little bearing on how the league is run next year or the near future.



I'm glad you at least showed the 2 differing opinions on this subject (that isn't really what the thread topic is about but seems to be bandied about this time of year).

I wish you'd show the courtesy of refraining from taking very few posts to paint with such a large brush.

And yes we should get back to new rules

[Richard]

I like how a thread on new MLS rules gets derailed into the perpetual off season thread on promotion/relegation.

You got to admit though that's its kind of fun to discuss and its not entirely off topic. :)

Its nice to see the different view points and ideas from the many users we have here, its better than bringing up that deathwatch thread that's for sure.

[Beach_Red]

Well that's pretty damning. There's plenty of talk in here about future league expansion and creative salary changes in a young league that has a diverse fan base.

Apparently I need to be even more more moderate in my phrasing.

ProRel may be more interesting to some here yet that has little bearing on how the league is run next year or the near future.



I'm glad you at least showed the 2 differing opinions on this subject (that isn't really what the thread topic is about but seems to be bandied about this time of year).

I wish you'd show the courtesy of refraining from taking very few posts to paint with such a large brush.

And yes we should get back to new rules

Okay, point taken. As I said, I didn't want to go back to this discussion from previous (every ;) ) years. The off-hand comments about "NA fans" happen in a lot of discussion and I find it symbolic (mataphoric?) of the larger issue of the future of MLS. I understand it's human nature, I'm pretty sure three weeks after my ancestors got here they said, "Well, sure, the potato crop is doing fine here but these people have no idea how to cook them." But it gets a little tiring to be called stupid and the root of the problem all the time (of course, #notallcomments).

you're right, of course, we should get back to new rules. I won't derail the thread again.

[OgtheDim]

There are pro/rel supporters on twitter that make any discussion of it toxic. Any journo who discusses it in the States gets twitter bombed.


I am proud to say that Ted Westervelt doesn't think I exist. :)


********

Yes, back to the subject.

So, anybody got any opinion on the possibility of replay judged calls?

[Initial B]

The replay would have to be within 10 seconds of the infraction, otherwise play would be too slowed down.

[Cashcleaner]

New DCU crest.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CV6B6BWWIAgVY4o.png

Are you kidding me?! Man, that is a nice tight crest. I like it! Not perfect, but much better than before.

Now all we need is New England to get with the program...

[Jack]

Interesting, I believe there was something about the broadcast & streaming situation in the original article when OgtheDim first posted it...? Now I can't see anything, so I'm not sure. However, I did notice that the date on the article at http://www.mlssoccer.com/post/2015/12/05/mls-announces-possible-plans-expand-league-28-teams-scheduling-updates is December 6, 2015, 3:05 PM EST.

OgtheDim's original post, which contained this link, was actually earlier than that: 12-05-2015, 06:24 PM. So maybe MLS edited the article later after posting it...???
Quite possible.

[leafsman]

What is the benefit of Pro/Rel for fans?

[molenshtain]

What is the benefit of Pro/Rel for fans?

Inclusivity. There's no reason any team in MLS is inherently more deserving of top division football then a well run club with a good fan base from a smaller, more regional city.

[JavierMartini]

Inclusivity. There's no reason any team in MLS is inherently more deserving of top division football then a well run club with a good fan base from a smaller, more regional city.

What about the multi million dollar buy in for newer teams.

[molenshtain]

What about the multi million dollar buy in for newer teams.

That's the buy in to start at the top.

[OgtheDim]

Inclusivity. There's no reason any team in MLS is inherently more deserving of top division football then a well run club with a good fan base from a smaller, more regional city.


I'll give you 2 reasons:

MLS only expands where

a) there is ownership committed to investment
b) a known fan base with the potential to reach a certain level in the first season and sustain that level
c) local corporate sponsorship potential

That's why Rochester, no matter how well run, will never get into MLS. There isn't the financial resources locally to support a team to be competitive and to be able to afford the costs of competing in a continental league.f


Secondly, this is a continental league. Unless you are a league based on Oligarchs and local governors who skim off the people (see Russia), then you are not dealing with the costs that a team competing in a league run across 4 time zones requires.

My family comes from a town at the end of the longest cul-de-sac in England. And people in that country complain about having to drive 45 minutes to get to that end of that cul-de-sac to watch a match and this drives down corporate support and player willingness to play in that town.

The ride from Yankee Stadium to Red Bull Arena is slightly longer then 45 minutes. And that's the shortest time between arena's in this league.

Pro Rel was set up in a different world that is simply unsustainable in North America.

[molenshtain]

I'll give you 2 reasons:

MLS only expands where

a) there is ownership committed to investment
b) a known fan base with the potential to reach a certain level in the first season and sustain that level
c) local corporate sponsorship potential

That's why Rochester, no matter how well run, will never get into MLS. There isn't the financial resources locally to support a team to be competitive and to be able to afford the costs of competing in a continental league.f


Secondly, this is a continental league. Unless you are a league based on Oligarchs and local governors who skim off the people (see Russia), then you are not dealing with the costs that a team competing in a league run across 4 time zones requires.

My family comes from a town at the end of the longest cul-de-sac in England. And people in that country complain about having to drive 45 minutes to get to that end of that cul-de-sac to watch a match and this drives down corporate support and player willingness to play in that town.

The ride from Yankee Stadium to Red Bull Arena is slightly longer then 45 minutes. And that's the shortest time between arena's in this league.

Pro Rel was set up in a different world that is simply unsustainable in North America.

I think those are all great points. Don't disagree with any of them.

I think pro/rel is a long way down the road if it's there at all. Was just pointing out that there is an obvious value to it for fans.

[spe18]

The MLS Cup for next season is scheduled to be held in early December, with playoffs scheduled for the month of November.

http://www.mlssoccer.com/post/2016/01/01/2016-mlssoccer-com-almanac-combine-cup-all-dates-you-need-know

[TFC07]

The MLS Cup for next season is scheduled to be held in early December, with playoffs scheduled for the month of November.

http://www.mlssoccer.com/post/2016/01/01/2016-mlssoccer-com-almanac-combine-cup-all-dates-you-need-know

Hopefully it means that MLS will schedule games around FIFA international dates so we don't lose some of our players for few games.

[Auzzy]

The MLS Cup for next season is scheduled to be held in early December, with playoffs scheduled for the month of November.

http://www.mlssoccer.com/post/2016/01/01/2016-mlssoccer-com-almanac-combine-cup-all-dates-you-need-know

Wow I thought they would be done earlier next season. How the hell do they know that there won't be scheduling conflicts between possible TFC & Argos playoff dates? Considering that "scheduling conflicts" mean something different on a grass field, than on plastic.

[Yohan]

Wow I thought they would be done earlier next season. How the hell do they know that there won't be scheduling conflicts between possible TFC & Argos playoff dates? Considering that "scheduling conflicts" mean something different on a grass field, than on plastic.
The league doesn't revolve around TFC :p

[Yohan]

Hopefully it means that MLS will schedule games around FIFA international dates so we don't lose some of our players for few games.
I doubt it. MLS is already taking a break for Copa America

[spe18]

The league doesn't revolve around TFC :p

+1 :)

[Auzzy]

The league doesn't revolve around TFC :p

For sure I know it doesn't, why would it?! With "they" I meant MLSE, not the league. In the fall there were some hints that MLS scheduling would change. There were some people guessing on this board, and elsewhere, that MLS might finish earlier (for other reasons), and that would help with TFC/Argos playoff scheduling.

For a couple of years, I've found the end of the MLS playoffs horribly drawn out, and it kills interest in the final games. Plus the weather in late November/early December is very iffy in many locations, especially now that the final goes to the highest-seeded team.

[Yohan]

For sure I know it doesn't, why would it?! With "they" I meant MLSE, not the league. In the fall there were some hints that MLS scheduling would change. There were some people guessing on this board, and elsewhere, that MLS might finish earlier (for other reasons), and that would help with TFC/Argos playoff scheduling.

For a couple of years, I've found the end of the MLS playoffs horribly drawn out, and it kills interest in the final games. Plus the weather in late November/early December is very iffy in many locations, especially now that the final goes to the highest-seeded team.
I know there was no blizzard in early Dec, but freaking Columbus sold out their stadium for MLS Cup final.
Personally, I found this year's playoffs most compelling than some of previous seasons. Then again, I am a MLS nerd :p

[SoccMan2]

So the Grey Cup is Sunday Nov. 27th. and the MLS Cup is Dec.4th., so what happens if TFC is scheduled to play a home playoff game the same weekend as the Grey Cup, moreover, they win that game and play in the MLS Cup at home the following weekend Dec.4th. Imagine if the field is ripped up after the Grey Cup and especially after a season long of CFL and MLS on the grass field, would not be a good look having the MLS marquee game played on a ripped up field with faded football markings. I know this is a stretch but it could happen, the one that I would be more curious about is where would TFC play that semi final game if it's at home the same weekend of the Grey Cup.

[TFC07]

So the Grey Cup is Sunday Nov. 27th. and the MLS Cup is Dec.4th., so what happens if TFC is scheduled to play a home playoff game the same weekend as the Grey Cup, moreover, they win that game and play in the MLS Cup at home the following weekend Dec.4th. Imagine if the field is ripped up after the Grey Cup and especially after a season long of CFL and MLS on the grass field, would not be a good look having the MLS marquee game played on a ripped up field with faded football markings. I know this is a stretch but it could happen, the one that I would be more curious about is where would TFC play that semi final game if it's at home the same weekend of the Grey Cup.

Probably Rogers Centre. I don't think Blue Jays will be using Rogers Centre end of November.

Also, I wouldn't be surprise if TFC play MLS cup final at Rogers Centre instead of BMO field to get a bigger crowd.

[molenshtain]

Also, I wouldn't be surprise if TFC play MLS cup final at Rogers Centre instead of BMO field to get a bigger crowd.

I don't think many here would be happy about that. I think it's more likely that they bring in temporary stands to expand capacity if we're playing late into the playoffs.

[TFC07]

I don't think many here would be happy about that. I think it's more likely that they bring in temporary stands to expand capacity if we're playing late into the playoffs.

What if turf isn't in playable conditions? I highly doubt there's enough time to fix turf after Grey Cup game to get it right for MLS Cup final especially if weather is bad.

[troy1982]

Probably Rogers Centre. I don't think Blue Jays will be using Rogers Centre end of November.

Also, I wouldn't be surprise if TFC play MLS cup final at Rogers Centre instead of BMO field to get a bigger crowd.

Shouldn't the Argos game be moved to the Rogers Centre since TFC is the primary tenant

[OgtheDim]

Shouldn't the Argos game be moved to the Rogers Centre since TFC is the primary tenant

The Grey Cup won't be moved.

More likely a 2nd round of the East final played at home would be played on the Saturday.

[Petor]

I guess MLSE lied about doing their homework! :picard:

"And when news of the Grey Cup surfaced Wednesday, TFC fans wondered how the stadium could accommodate two events if Toronto qualifies for next year’s MLS Cup.But MLSE exec Dave Hopkinson says TFC fans needn’t worry. Although Major League Soccer hasn’t yet scheduled its 2016 playoffs Hopkinson says a hypothetical title game in Toronto would take place well before the Grey Cup.

“TFC is the primary tenant,” said Hopkinson, MLSE’s chief commercial officer. “You don’t get this far into the process without having done all your homework, and we’ve done all our homework.”"

The quote was taken from:
http://www.thestar.com/sports/argos/2015/10/01/2016-grey-cup-latest-addition-to-busy-toronto-sports-calendar.html

[Ivy]

I knew my signature would come to good use sooner rather than later.

[spe18]

The Grey Cup won't be moved.

More likely a 2nd round of the East final played at home would be played on the Saturday.

Do you mean a TFC game on the Saturday?

[FRANKIE65]

The Grey Cup won't be moved.

More likely a 2nd round of the East final played at home would be played on the Saturday.

Yup, that would be another "bend over and take it moment"
Primary tennant uh-huh, sure

[Hamilton_Red]

So the Grey Cup is Sunday Nov. 27th. and the MLS Cup is Dec.4th., so what happens if TFC is scheduled to play a home playoff game the same weekend as the Grey Cup, moreover, they win that game and play in the MLS Cup at home the following weekend Dec.4th. Imagine if the field is ripped up after the Grey Cup and especially after a season long of CFL and MLS on the grass field, would not be a good look having the MLS marquee game played on a ripped up field with faded football markings. I know this is a stretch but it could happen, the one that I would be more curious about is where would TFC play that semi final game if it's at home the same weekend of the Grey Cup.

Are the Argos definitely playing next seasons games at BMO or is just the Grey CuP?

[Hamilton_Red]

Unbelievable - everything that MLSE touches turns to crap. They look like imbeciles again. What is the point of taking the Argos out of a perfectly good stadium for them for the past 25+ years?


I guess MLSE lied about doing their homework! :picard:

"And when news of the Grey Cup surfaced Wednesday, TFC fans wondered how the stadium could accommodate two events if Toronto qualifies for next year’s MLS Cup.But MLSE exec Dave Hopkinson says TFC fans needn’t worry. Although Major League Soccer hasn’t yet scheduled its 2016 playoffs Hopkinson says a hypothetical title game in Toronto would take place well before the Grey Cup.

“TFC is the primary tenant,” said Hopkinson, MLSE’s chief commercial officer. “You don’t get this far into the process without having done all your homework, and we’ve done all our homework.”"

The quote was taken from:
http://www.thestar.com/sports/argos/2015/10/01/2016-grey-cup-latest-addition-to-busy-toronto-sports-calendar.html

[OgtheDim]

Are the Argos definitely playing next seasons games at BMO or is just the Grey CuP?

All home games (including a probable preseason game in mid June). I would be very surprised if the opening Friday night game for the CFL is not in Toronto - June 24th at 7 pm. It will be hype city.



As to the Grey Cup, as I said - it won't be moved.



I would also state that a posting about future dates on MLSsoccer.com means about as much as what Hopkinson stated - both are communications and subject to change.

But if MLS does go with this dates and TFC in theory gets a playoff date bumped for a Grey Cup, I would hope that a TFC scribe would be asking Manning what happened.

[SoccMan2]

Wow just fucking wow MLSE, what a joke, so you soccer reporters out there and you know who you are, I know you guys read these boards need to be asking the tough questions to these jokers, I mean that statement about the MLS Cup being played much before the Grey Cup is a joke, and to top it all off saying that they do their homework is even worse, these are statements that people should be losing their jobs over , just fucken incredible oh my! Those MLS dates make sense they basically follow the same type of dates as this year and add on the fact that the league is shutting down for two weeks for the Copa America , those dates are most likely true ones.

[SoccMan2]

Imagine having such a big game like the semifinal having to be played on shitty turf at the Rogers Center, because our home is not avalaible because of ponty ball , that would be a classic bending over and taking it scenario lol. The Impact fans will be loving it if that happened, I still remember that banner they unveiled at Saputo stadium that read something like , the Impact welcome the Argos to BMO , it got my blood boiling when I saw that man.

[MartinUtd]

One step forward, two steps back.

[Auzzy]

I guess MLSE lied about doing their homework! :picard:

"And when news of the Grey Cup surfaced Wednesday, TFC fans wondered how the stadium could accommodate two events if Toronto qualifies for next year’s MLS Cup.But MLSE exec Dave Hopkinson says TFC fans needn’t worry. Although Major League Soccer hasn’t yet scheduled its 2016 playoffs Hopkinson says a hypothetical title game in Toronto would take place well before the Grey Cup.

“TFC is the primary tenant,” said Hopkinson, MLSE’s chief commercial officer. “You don’t get this far into the process without having done all your homework, and we’ve done all our homework.”"

The quote was taken from:
http://www.thestar.com/sports/argos/2015/10/01/2016-grey-cup-latest-addition-to-busy-toronto-sports-calendar.html


Holy shit thanks for digging that up, I thought I remembered something like that. The situation & that quote is even worse than I remembered!

Usually there's at least a bit of a gap in the MLS schedule before the MLS Cup. But I'm remembering some of the MLS playoff games from the 2015 season & previous years. Often you don't know until very shortly before, who will be playing in a specific playoff game & in which city. How the hell are they planning to schedule the Argos into that? Also, I believe they were hoping to always leave at least a week after an Argos game before TFC plays at BMO. It's gonna be a shit show...

[molenshtain]

Let's calm down a bit. Hopkinson would have no reason to have kept his ear so close to the ground in MLS as to know when the final would be in 2016. He's the CCO. It was a dumb thing to say on his part but he doesn't actually have very much to do with TFC.

That Hopkinson qoute is not towing the party line. No one around the club would have said something that could come back to bite them in the ass like that. I can assure you that Leiweke and Bez f were not happy after they saw that quote in print.

[Petor]

Let's calm down a bit. Hopkinson would have no reason to have kept his ear so close to the ground in MLS as to know when the final would be in 2016. He's the CCO. It was a dumb thing to say on his part but he doesn't actually have very much to do with TFC.

That Hopkinson qoute is not towing the party line. No one around the club would have said something that could come back to bite them in the ass like that. I can assure you that Leiweke and Bez f were not happy after they saw that quote in print.

If that's true how come no one from MLSE distanced themselves from that quote after it was printed in the paper?

[molenshtain]

If that's true how come no one from MLSE distanced themselves from that quote after it was printed in the paper?

because for all intents and purposes anyone directly working at TFC is an employee of MLSE, and therefore an employee of Hopkinson. You can't shit talk your boss in public.

It's likely that no one working at MLSE distanced themselves from the quote for a couple of reasons:
A) they didn't think it would be a very big deal. Distancing yourself in the press from a quote that few picked up on the first time around will only lead more attention to said quote when you bring it back up.
B) no one at MLSE (pre-manning) is looking out for us except TL. Given his imminent departure I don't think he's concerned with the long-term aesthetics of quotes like Hopkinson's. Some time's guys are gonna talk to reporters about things they don't know. TL didn't(doesn't) plan on being around for the culmination of the stadium project. It's just not something that concerns him.
C) because you can't outright distance yourself from that quote without essentially saying that actually, no, if we do make it far into the playoffs there will definitely be scheduling conflicts that could cause issues to the pitch. It's hard to distance yourself from that quote without appearing to say the opposite of what Hopkinson is.

Under TL, Bez and now Manning, the club has had a very specific policy in dealing with fans. You get good news and positive content out as fast and loud as possible. When it's not good news or against fan interest's, they take their sweet time to carefully curate a message that softens the blow as much as possible. This usually involves telling fans at a private meeting instead of releasing it through the press.

Hopkinson works nominally on the ACC side of MLSE and no one is really in a position to tell him to shut up so that he doesn't embarrass us later. It's just unfortunate more than anything else.

[Auzzy]

Let's calm down a bit. Hopkinson would have no reason to have kept his ear so close to the ground in MLS as to know when the final would be in 2016. He's the CCO. It was a dumb thing to say on his part but he doesn't actually have very much to do with TFC.

That Hopkinson qoute is not towing the party line. No one around the club would have said something that could come back to bite them in the ass like that. I can assure you that Leiweke and Bez f were not happy after they saw that quote in print.


If that's true how come no one from MLSE distanced themselves from that quote after it was printed in the paper?

I have a shorter response than what molenshtain wrote: The Hopkinson quote was before season ticket renewal time. Now it's too late to renew or cancel. In that context, better for someone like Hopkinson to spout it, as now the soccer guys can say "oh he didn't know the MLS details." Plausible deniability.

It's a guess, but it's a guess that's as good as any.

[Fort York Redcoat]

They played the odds knowing a severe minority would know they have everything to prove with those comments and zero history to back that scheduling change up.

"Trust us..."

Prove it.

[ag futbol]

We are back to vintage MLSE - promise, promise, promise, until you are blue in the face then hope nobody is paying attention when the time for performance comes.

I'm just going to assume the worst and if they surprise me with actual actions (as opposed to empty platitudes) I will be pleasantly surprised. Otherwise I can only laugh at putting stock in whatever they say.

[C.Ronaldo]

i need myself a #DoYourHomework t-shirt

[Fort York Redcoat]

i need myself a #DoYourHomework t-shirt

Done Your Homework? banner.

[nfitz]

I guess MLSE lied about doing their homework!Lied? That's quite an accusation!

Dave Hopkinson clarified exactly what he told the Star a few days after it the October 1st publication. See the responses to:
https://twitter.com/TeamHop/status/649644717127241729 and https://twitter.com/TeamHop/status/651567718563487744

They'd play MLS leg night before. MLSE had no concerns about playing MLS Cup game 5-7 days after CFL game.

[Oldtimer]

Lied? That's quite an accusation!

Dave Hopkinson clarified exactly what he told the Star a few days after it the October 1st publication. See the responses to:
https://twitter.com/TeamHop/status/649644717127241729 and https://twitter.com/TeamHop/status/651567718563487744

They'd play MLS leg night before. MLSE had no concerns about playing MLS Cup game 5-7 days after CFL game.

Just goes to show how one person's inaccurate conclusions based on out of date information can lead to a lot of anger on this board. People need to take a breather. Such a discussion over nothing.

[Fort York Redcoat]

Lied? That's quite an accusation!

Dave Hopkinson clarified exactly what he told the Star a few days after it the October 1st publication. See the responses to:
https://twitter.com/TeamHop/status/649644717127241729 and https://twitter.com/TeamHop/status/651567718563487744

They'd play MLS leg night before. MLSE had no concerns about playing MLS Cup game 5-7 days after CFL game.

Thanks for clarifying that buried tweet that says they define "Well before" as The night before.

It's there in full view. This is a good thing. The way they handle public communication isn't so great.

[troy1982]

Just goes to show how one person's inaccurate conclusions based on out of date information can lead to a lot of anger on this board. People need to take a breather. Such a discussion over nothing.

Not so fast..

1. The Eastern Finals is a game that is nationally televised in the US by either Fox or ESPN who only have Sunday open for MLS games due to having college football on Saturday. I don't see how MLS can move the game to Saturday and not have the Eastern finals televised in the states.

2. Last year Seattle had to play with football lines on the field because 24 hours after their game wasn't enough time to paint the field and have it dry for the Seahawks game. Also what if rain was schedule the night/morning after a possible TFC home eastern final game and the grey cup was the next day.

I really hope this conflict happens and to blows up in MLSE's face.
An extra reason to have TFC go deep into the play-offs next year, each game we advance puts more pressure on MLSE.
The pressure wouldn't be only from TFC fans though, it will be from MLS/ESPN/Fox on one side, TSN, CFL, Argos on the other

https://cdn0.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/PsdtOuKUz3S0PBsLT_ffzGh5MTM=/0x0:709x399/1600x900/cdn0.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_image/image/47320600/20131102_jla_sn8_889.0.0.0.jpg

[OgtheDim]

In other news



Schedule out on Thursday

[Petor]

Thanks for clarifying that buried tweet that says they define "Well before" as The night before.

It's there in full view. This is a good thing. The way they handle public communication isn't so great.

Since all MLS playoff games are played on a Sunday(except for the first two knockout games) I doubt that the Grey Cup will be played on a Monday.
Will the primary tenant have to plead with MLS to make an exception and play on a Saturday if TFC make it that far into the playoffs?.

Also, I never saw those tweets.
Funny how way before turns into the night before.
Too bad that he didn't clarify it to anyone in the media, most people don't follow him on twitter.

[SoccMan2]

In the end if there is a conflict that semifinal will be played at Rogers end of story. In the end the Argos did move into BMO. This is MLSE we are talking about remember so nothing surprises me with these guys.

[Petor]

In other news



Schedule out on Thursday

Three days ago MLS announced that the MLS Cup will be early December.

http://www.mlssoccer.com/post/2016/01/01/2016-mlssoccer-com-almanac-combine-cup-all-dates-you-need-know

Although no specific dates are given we know now for sure that the MLS Cup will take place AFTER the Grey Cup, not well before.

[Hamilton_Red]

Lied? That's quite an accusation!

Dave Hopkinson clarified exactly what he told the Star a few days after it the October 1st publication. See the responses to:
https://twitter.com/TeamHop/status/649644717127241729 and https://twitter.com/TeamHop/status/651567718563487744

They'd play MLS leg night before. MLSE had no concerns about playing MLS Cup game 5-7 days after CFL game.

MLSE has no concerns about playing 5-7 days after a CFL game in November.... FFS. They are confident the weather will be fine?... more likely 7 days than 5...Imagine BMO in pishing down rain for a week prior to letting 90 neanderthals tramp around a soaking grass pitch. They are no concerned - because they don't really give a shit about TFC making the final.

[troy1982]

Since all MLS playoff games are played on a Sunday(except for the first two knockout games) I doubt that the Grey Cup will be played on a Monday.
Will the primary tenant have to plead with MLS to make an exception and play on a Saturday if TFC make it that far into the playoffs?.

Also, I never saw those tweets.
Funny how way before turns into the night before.
Too bad that he didn't clarify it to anyone in the media, most people don't follow him on twitter.


If MLS moved the Eastern Final to Saturday, it would not be shown on US National TV as this year as ESPN and FOX don't have room and it is why all playoff games were on Sunday this year, The first year of the NEW 8 YEAR contract.

[troy1982]

In the end if there is a conflict that semifinal will be played at Rogers end of story. In the end the Argos did move into BMO. This is MLSE we are talking about remember so nothing surprises me with these guys.

I still don't see why the Grey Cup wouldn't move to the Rogers Centre. MLSE now has 10 months head start.
If MLSE waits to find out if TFC will be playing on the same date, it might be too late to book Rogers Centre.
But they know for sure when the Grey Cup will be so wouldn't it make sense to book the Grey Cup for the Rogers Centre now instead of waiting until the last minute to try to book TFC at the Rogers centre which may not be available then, plus angering all TFC fans in the process.

Also lets say the book the Rogers Centre now for TFC and it may not be needed. I am sure it would not be free to cancel the date a month before it was to be used.

[OgtheDim]

The deal to buy the Argos included BMO field Grey Cups. That gives the Argo ownership way more money then renting out the Skydome.

The Grey Cup is staying. On that Sunday.

I would note

" November: 2016 MLS Playoffs | 12 more teams enter the gauntlet."

"Early December: 2016 MLS Cup | A new champion will be crowned."


No mention of specific dates. Might change a few things.

BTW, there has been some chatter about moving the MLS Cup to a Monday Night. And there has been some chatter about reducing the games played during the playoffs but I doubt the owners would go for that - home playoff dates make money.

We'll see on Thursday.

[spe18]

The deal to buy the Argos included BMO field Grey Cups. That gives the Argo ownership way more money then renting out the Skydome.

The Grey Cup is staying. On that Sunday.

I would note

" November: 2016 MLS Playoffs | 12 more teams enter the gauntlet."

"Early December: 2016 MLS Cup | A new champion will be crowned."


No mention of specific dates. Might change a few things.

BTW, there has been some chatter about moving the MLS Cup to a Monday Night. And there has been some chatter about reducing the games played during the playoffs but I doubt the owners would go for that - home playoff dates make money.

We'll see on Thursday.

Ahh yes, the process of elimination. We know that the FIFA international dates for November is 7-15, so it's virtually assured no playoff games will take place on those dates for starters :)

[jazzy]

Probably Rogers Centre. I don't think Blue Jays will be using Rogers Centre end of November.

Also, I wouldn't be surprise if TFC play MLS cup final at Rogers Centre instead of BMO field to get a bigger crowd.

ive always felt this may happen . Scares the hell out of me . Although wouldn't that seem like a defeat, on the whole stadium redesign to MLSE . What will be the total capacity of the 'new' hockey classic stadium 40,000 . That should be enough , especially with the 1rst level plumbing maybe not working :).

[spe18]

If MLS moved the Eastern Final to Saturday, it would not be shown on US National TV as this year as ESPN and FOX don't have room and it is why all playoff games were on Sunday this year, The first year of the NEW 8 YEAR contract.

Imagine if hypothetically, a playoff series was between Toronto FC and New York City FC, aka the Giovinco/Bradley/Altidore vs. Villa/Lampard/Pirlo show, and because of this conflict, this game might not even be on national tv anymore. I'd wonder how the league would feel about that!

Also, I think NE, Seattle and Vancouver would have similar problems.

[troy1982]

Imagine if hypothetically, a playoff series was between Toronto FC and New York City FC, aka the Giovinco/Bradley/Altidore vs. Villa/Lampard/Pirlo show, and because of this conflict, this game might not even be on national tv anymore. I'd wonder how the league would feel about that!

Also, I think NE, Seattle and Vancouver would have similar problems.

Exactly, so who will have more pull on MLSE, MLS and ESPN or the CFL and TSN.
Keep in mind MLSE owns TFC and only has a contract to manage the Argos with only 2/3 of MLSE owning the Argos.
Also ESPN owns a small piece of TSN.
I so want this conflict to happen :)

[nfitz]

Thanks for clarifying that buried tweet that says they define "Well before" as The night before.

It's there in full view. This is a good thing. The way they handle public communication isn't so great.It's more likely that the Star inaccurately quoted him, given he immediately clarified what he told them (3 months ago!).

Hopefully having to deal with a possible conflict between the home-advantage semi-final and the Grey Cup is a problem we have, given it means we most likely finished number 1 in the division.

But really, seems like making a mountain out of a molehill at this point, given our decade-long track record!

[Pint]

A night before the grey cup with a field fully painted for the game would be enough to keep me away from the game.

Just because someone does their homework doesn't mean its correct or that they will pass the test.

[Fort York Redcoat]

It's more likely that the Star inaccurately quoted him, given he immediately clarified what he told them (3 months ago!).

Hopefully having to deal with a possible conflict between the home-advantage semi-final and the Grey Cup is a problem we have, given it means we most likely finished number 1 in the division.

But really, seems like making a mountain out of a molehill at this point, given our decade-long track record!

So positive concerning the communication and so negative on our chances. At least you leave a little room for hope.

Glad this won't concern you though. Celebrate.

Oh and it was five days after that he responded to someone via tweet convo. Since we're exclaiming details.

[SoccMan2]

So when will the MLS implement goal line technology? Actually I can't think of any goal controversies last season but I think it's time MLS considered bringing it in, I mean not allowing a legitimate goal because the officials believed it did not go in when it actually did is crazy in this day and age with all the technology around.

[Onyx]

A night before the grey cup with a field fully painted for the game would be enough to keep me away from the game.

Just because someone does their homework doesn't mean its correct or that they will pass the test.

can't see any chance we play any home game within 6 days the grey cup, Bell/TL has $9-$10million profit on the line. Its TSN's biggest day of the year with millions $ on the line. no chance anyone gets near the playing surface in those days.

[Onyx]

Exactly, so who will have more pull on MLSE, MLS and ESPN or the CFL and TSN.
Keep in mind MLSE owns TFC and only has a contract to manage the Argos with only 2/3 of MLSE owning the Argos.
Also ESPN owns a small piece of TSN.
I so want this conflict to happen :)

i don't think ESPN or fox give a crap about MLS, its just something they are required to show it get the USMNT rights. until the ratings improve, this will always be the case.

[Onyx]

So when will the MLS implement goal line technology? Actually I can't think of any goal controversies last season but I think it's time MLS considered bringing it in, I mean not allowing a legitimate goal because the officials believed it did not go in when it actually did is crazy in this day and age with all the technology around.

this is a must ... especially with every game on tv/mlslive now .. at least go with TV appeals if not the full FIFA technology

[105]

In the future, I'd really like to see the Supporters Shield given more importance. For me, there's a lot less luck in winning the Shield than the MLS cup. For the Shield, you need to be consistently great, for the MLS Cup, you need to get hot for a month or so.

Maybe have the winner of the league go directly to the MLS Cup final and have a playoff system to determine the other finalist. You'd probably need a balanced schedule for this to work though, because you'd need to take in account the strength of each conference.