How best to use Bradley?

[Kamp Berg]

I was listening to the discussion between the boys at TSN regarding how to best use Bradley and I have to agree that it is the most important question for TFC next year.

If we can all agree that Bradley is best box-to-box or attacking:

What's the best formation?

What's his best position?

I wonder how this would work (personnel upgrades are needed):

--------------------------------------------Altidore-------------------------
-----------------Giovinco----------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------Osorio-------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------Bradley-----------------------------Delgado/?---------------
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------DM---------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---Morrow--------------CB----------------CB----------------RB------------
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------Keeper-------------------------------------

Or the 4-5-1, attacking as an Italian 4-3-3:

----------------------------------Altidore------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------Giovinco------------------Bradley----------------------Osorio------
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------DM-------------------------DM--------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---Morrow--------------CB------------------CB----------------RB----------
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------Keeper------------------------------------

In my opinion everyone else who stays on is back-up quality. This would take dumping some high priced dead weight. I sure hope Manning can help make it happen!

[Red CB Toronto]

Box to box is where the General is at his best. I really believe the lack of a quality back line for the Reds has played into a less than stellar performance from him at times. It is his make up to really try and do too much if he feels it's necesary, I hope that pressure is removed from him next year and is allowed to Truly play from a point of strength. In reality the upgrade of the back line will go huge in allowing this team to approve and players do what they do best.

[Ultra & Proud]

Agree with the above. Bradley is best at box to box but he always tries to do too much and is way overaggressive. If he took his foot off the gas, especially in the offensive zone, he probably would have had double the goals.

[portu]

As trade bait

[Kamp Berg]

As trade bait

The more I watch him fail to gel with the team, the more I feel this way too, but I don't think it's going to happen. He is too marketable for mlse, and we all know they don't seem to care much about how well the team plays.

[shwade]

As trade bait

Lol they won't out of pure stubborness.
Anyway it doesn't matter...Bradley will play where Bradley wants to play - this is his team.

[ManUtd4ever]

As trade bait

This. Trade him while we can still get a king's ransom for him from a large market U.S. based club. He's not the right fit for our club, but he's still Captain America.

[ManUtd4ever]

The more I watch him fail to gel with the team, the more I feel this way too, but I don't think it's going to happen. He is too marketable for mlse, and we all know they don't seem to care much about how well the team plays.

You mean he's marketable for MLS. The league would be just fine with him moving to a U.S. based club.

[Lennon]

Send him to the Red Bulls for Jesse Marsch or Shawn McLaws.

[OgtheDim]

He's staying.

Get over it.


******



Double pivot with a real DM.

[C.Ronaldo]

anyone have an example of a player playing in europe thats box- box ?

i keep hearing this term, but i dont know any players with his style

[Kamp Berg]

anyone have an example of a player playing in europe thats box- box ?

i keep hearing this term, but i dont know any players with his style

Strootman for Roma.

[Areathrasher]

Arturo Vidal

[jabbronies]

anyone have an example of a player playing in europe thats box- box ?

i keep hearing this term, but i dont know any players with his style


A box-to-box player, midfielder, to be specific, is a player who is as effective in defending his own box as attacking the opposition's box.

Arturo Vidal, Yaya Toure, Pogba, Paul scholes

[burlington Red]

very few teams now play a true box to box mid, I am talking Bryan Robson, Patrick Vieria, Roy Keane in his prime box to box. Players who often made a tackle in their own box and then in the same passage of play arrived in the other teams box. Football has changed since that era, most Euro teams esp away from home play 5 in midfiled and players tend to have more structured roles. Pogba probaly in todays game is a box to box, but it's a role that needs to ensure whoever your partner is in midfield, that they are in sync with your runs. We saw when Bradley tried that flick v Montreal on edge of their box, Cheyrou didn't cover him and they broke and scored. I don't think Bradley is a box to box mid, sure he runs a lot but it isn't discplined. I'd either get him a genuine quality defensive mid and let him play the more attacking role or get him a genuine quality AM and play Bradley in DM role. I know playing Bradley in DM role prob doesn't sit well with most, but if we did get a DP quality AM I think we'd see a lot more creavity in the final 3rd than what we see from Bradley currently. Wherever he plays he needs to have more defined strutured role and ditch this let him just run everywhere role he currently has.

[Initial B]

Just a thought - what about running a modified 4-1-4-1?

------------------------------Altidore----------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------Giovinco----------------------------
---LW/Delgado----------------------------------------------Osorio---------
------------------------Bradley----------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------Destroyer-DM--------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---Morrow------------Stud CB---------------Perquis--------------RB------
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------Keeper-------------------------------------

Giovinco would be given free reign to move up into the attack when required and Bradley would be free to roam the pitch box to box. Osorio would be expected to fill in the hole in the centre of the pitch as a holding midfielder while the new RB with pace would drift up into Osorio's position on attack to provide the option for crosses. If the ball got into the space vacated by the RB, the CB-DM-CB triangle would defend the 18 yard box. Bradley and Giovinco could drift back into a 4-2-3-1 when defence is required. The LW would stay wide and be a good crosser to get balls into the box for Jozy, with Seba ghosting up behind to pounce on any rebounds.

[Ultra & Proud]

The only way he can work out here is if we get a quality true DM. The only issue with that idea is that Bradley isn't a true AM and if you use him as just a box to box mid and still use Osorio then we start getting awfully narrow again.

Bradley can't play DM for sure. Actually it's not that he can't, it's that he won't. He would be the same as Cheyrou. Too undisciplined to provide the cover needed and would leave the back line as exposed as Cheyrou did. He would still be better than Cheyrou as he has a little more pace and chaos in his game but still, not a good answer.

[T-boy]

I always think Seba's best position is AM - he is best with players to run onto rather than trying to hold the ball up or create with other players behind him. If you look at the goals he's scored this past season he scores many outside the box or when getting the ball deeper.

So that means Bradley should play DM. He doesn't create like Seba does and he's more energetic as a DM. Having said that - I always think its a waste of cap space using a DP as a defensive mid.

Bradley plays AM/creative midfielder "on occassions" so I don't think his best position is AM or even double pivot (see Montreal's second goal in the pay off game as an example - Bradley loses the ball high up the field and can't track back).

He is a conundrum, for sure. His best position isn't high up the field and yet he's too expensive to have as DM. But then again, playing him DM would allow Seba to play his best position (IMO) of attacking midfielder.

[Shway]

Working with what we have...Altidore is a box striker, and should never be put wide. That means giovinco should play in behind him, allowing him the freedom to roam. Now Bradley.......

Truthfully if it was up to me, I would trade him because he is not worth the dp price based on the fact of the amount of CMs that were better than him this season, who are paid 5% of what he gets. However since we have him, his best position is in a deep lying midfield role (CDM) where he has time switching and sending diagonal balls - that's what he excels in, the ability to change the direction of the ppl play. Other than that he legitimately doesn't have the quick passing skills required to play in behind the strikers nor does he have the ability to beat players (or draw them in).

[C.Ronaldo]

Working with what we have...Altidore is a box striker, and should never be put wide. That means giovinco should play in behind him, allowing him the freedom to roam. Now Bradley.......

Truthfully if it was up to me, I would trade him because he is not worth the dp price based on the fact of the amount of CMs that were better than him this season, who are paid 5% of what he gets. However since we have him, his best position is in a deep lying midfield role (CDM) where he has time switching and sending diagonal balls - that's what he excels in, the ability to change the direction of the ppl play. Other than that he legitimately doesn't have the quick passing skills required to play in behind the strikers nor does he have the ability to beat players (or draw them in).


Agreed, bradley can read the game better from back there.

all these examples of modern box-box players dont remind me of MB very much. He has a good motor and plays hard, thats not enough i wouldnt think


So the more i read this, teh more I think Vanney istn suited to get the best out of his players and roles

[T-boy]

Working with what we have...Altidore is a box striker, and should never be put wide. That means giovinco should play in behind him, allowing him the freedom to roam. Now Bradley.......

Truthfully if it was up to me, I would trade him because he is not worth the dp price based on the fact of the amount of CMs that were better than him this season, who are paid 5% of what he gets. However since we have him, his best position is in a deep lying midfield role (CDM) where he has time switching and sending diagonal balls - that's what he excels in, the ability to change the direction of the ppl play. Other than that he legitimately doesn't have the quick passing skills required to play in behind the strikers nor does he have the ability to beat players (or draw them in).

The CDM would work best as a double-pivot, as somebody said above. The problem with that is you need to have TWO players who have the ability to play double-pivot. I think very few MLS midfielders have that ability to play a double-pivot. Cheyrou certainly doesn't have the engine to play that role. Warner has energy but he's best as a pure DM. We have no other midfielders who can play it.

Bradley was successful in Italy because they have many many midfielders who can play box-to-box. MLS is a different story.

IMO players like Bradley, Gerrard, and Pirlo are always going to be wasted in the MLS unless they can find two midfielders of that same caliber playing for the same team. Bradley and Gerrard would be a great midfield - they can trade places easily and have the football ID to do it. Anybody else - not so much!

[jloome]

Box to box is where the General is at his best.

It's where he seems to think he's at his best. His defense was so bad this year, and he tried so hard to do to much, that having him play two ways looks like a recipe for losing shape constantly. He should be primarily an offensive player at the top of the diamond, or in a two as part of a 4-3-3 with an anchor behind them.

[jloome]

He's staying.

Get over it.


******



Double pivot with a real DM.

A double pivot with a "real DM" would be contradictory. a double pivot means one drops while the other advances. Having a pure DM go forward whenever hte ball was on his side of the field would be a waste of offensive position. For a double pivot to work, you need two true two-way mids. We don't even have one (except may Colin Warner, and I don't think anyone's under the impression he's good enough offensively.)

[Ultra & Proud]

I always think Seba's best position is AM - he is best with players to run onto rather than trying to hold the ball up or create with other players behind him. If you look at the goals he's scored this past season he scores many outside the box or when getting the ball deeper.
I think he'd have the same problem at AM that Bradley would have at DM. Both undisciplined. Seba looks for himself first and foremost always and that's his strength. For an AM I would prefer a true playmaker with less of an eye for goal. For me Seba is the perfect supporting striker behind Altidore but only if, like mentioned above, Altidore is used correctly as a box striker.

I tell you right now, you toss Altidore central and up top and let him be a wrecker like Kamara is then he'd have 20+ goals as he'd manage more than 16 shots on goal per year. Beyond that Seba would probably get more too from the chaos and space Altidore would stir up in the box and he'd probably hit 20 assists as well from junk Altidore would poach from being in the right place instead of out on the wing or outside the box.

But none of this will happen so this all a waste of keystrokes. Seba will do whatever he wants, Altidore will play further back than Bradley, Seba, Osorio, and Findley (fuck!), and we'll do all the same things we did this year.

[jloome]

Just a thought - what about running a modified 4-1-4-1?

------------------------------Altidore----------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------Giovinco----------------------------
---LW/Delgado----------------------------------------------Osorio---------
------------------------Bradley----------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------Destroyer-DM--------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---Morrow------------Stud CB---------------Perquis--------------RB------
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------Keeper-------------------------------------

Giovinco would be given free reign to move up into the attack when required and Bradley would be free to roam the pitch box to box. Osorio would be expected to fill in the hole in the centre of the pitch as a holding midfielder while the new RB with pace would drift up into Osorio's position on attack to provide the option for crosses. If the ball got into the space vacated by the RB, the CB-DM-CB triangle would defend the 18 yard box. Bradley and Giovinco could drift back into a 4-2-3-1 when defence is required. The LW would stay wide and be a good crosser to get balls into the box for Jozy, with Seba ghosting up behind to pounce on any rebounds.


I'd swap Osorio and Delgado unless you're expecting them to play inside more often than out, but this is probably the best example of what we actually need, I think. Play people to their strengths. I think maybe your wings are too high in this and there's too much space behind them, so maybe it's better expressed as a 4-1-3-2.

[jloome]

Bradley plays AM/creative midfielder "on occassions" so I don't think his best position is AM ....

He played as the advanced midfielder in a season for Hereenven when he first went over to Holland and scored 18 goals.

[Detroit_TFC]

So four key acquisitions needed. That's a tall order for one transfer window.

[jloome]

My bigger concern is that it sounds like they've signed Kantari and Perquis to multi-year deals, or they wouldn't be talking about the lack of need for change.

[Red CB Toronto]

It's where he seems to think he's at his best. His defense was so bad this year, and he tried so hard to do to much, that having him play two ways looks like a recipe for losing shape constantly. He should be primarily an offensive player at the top of the diamond, or in a two as part of a 4-3-3 with an anchor behind them.

He needs the backline as everyone does to be much better near to be most effectvie on the pitch. With the knowledge that the backline will hold up and not need constant cover will alllow him to the player we all expect.

[ManUtd4ever]

It's a mistake to try and tailor the formation that best suits Bradley, given his tendencies. The formation and tactical approach should be formulated based on the collective skill set of the players on the roster, and the players should be expected to fulfill their respective roles. If there is a wildcard, it should be up top, not in the midfield, or else the team will continue to be vulnerable defensively.

[OgtheDim]

A double pivot with a "real DM" would be contradictory. a double pivot means one drops while the other advances. Having a pure DM go forward whenever hte ball was on his side of the field would be a waste of offensive position. For a double pivot to work, you need two true two-way mids. We don't even have one (except may Colin Warner, and I don't think anyone's under the impression he's good enough offensively.)


Hmm....I guess what I'm thinking is Bradley wants to work in a double pivot so needs to be in one with a DM, even though really it won't be a double pivot - more like a pulley system with one pulley going up and back more often.

[Bobo]

4-4-3

----------------Altidore-----------------
--Giovinco------------------*Winger*--
---------Osorio---------Bradley---------
-----------*CDM Destroyer*------------

[pdubs]

4-4-3

----------------Altidore-----------------
--Giovinco------------------*Winger*--
---------Osorio---------Bradley---------
-----------*CDM Destroyer*------------

This right here. We need a DM to sit period. Honestly think this is our best formation. The pivots and all this won't work, Bradley will roam and over commit.

[Ultra & Proud]

4-4-3?

Are we solving the GK problem by just not using one next year then? Or are they giving us a break and letting us use an extra player to even the field?

[Areathrasher]

4-4-3

----------------Altidore-----------------
--Giovinco------------------*Winger*--
---------Osorio---------Bradley---------
-----------*CDM Destroyer*------------

I'd very much like to see this tried next year.

[pdubs]

4-4-3?

Are we solving the GK problem by just not using one next year then? Or are they giving us a break and letting us use an extra player to even the field?

I count 6 plus back 4 plus keeper?

[Ultra & Proud]

I see it as a GK, 4 defenders, 4 mids, and 3 forwards. The 4-4-3 that is.

This line up is drawn out as either a 4-3-3 or 4-5-1. I think this would be okay but Seba won't stick to it. Probably better to push Seba central and put Osorio up where Seba is or else push Bradley up central, drop Osorio, and add another deeper CAM. Unless of course Osorio can handle that position and work with a good new DM destroyer. That would be a real bonus but I don't know if he is game for it yet. His passing is getting much better and he has some pace. In my eyes it wouldn't be too far fetched that Osorio could grow into doing what Cheyrou was doing this season but do it with younger legs (but less vision unfortunately). Vanney likes experimenting so why not try it out in the spring and see how he does.

----------------Altidore-----------------
--Giovinco------------------*Winger*--
--------Osorio---------Bradley---------
----------*CDM Destroyer*------------

[Bobo]

4-4-3?

Are we solving the GK problem by just not using one next year then? Or are they giving us a break and letting us use an extra player to even the field?

Typo, obviously.


I count 6 plus back 4 plus keeper?

Yes, that would make 11.


I was certain this was what Vanney was going to use when they picked up Findley. Surely the plan wasn't to make him a right mid or a 4th striker.

[Ultra & Proud]

I was certain this was what Vanney was going to use when they picked up Findley. Surely the plan wasn't to make him a right mid or a 4th striker.
Was Vanney at all involved with choosing Findley though or was it just Bez grabbing another ex-USMNT player to make it a big US love in on the TFC first team?

Starting to think Vanney and Bez aren't on the same page.

And to go with this; we picked up Gomez, another ex-USMNT player and Vanney never really gave him a sniff.

Just all seems odd.

[portu]

4-4-3

----------------Altidore-----------------
--Giovinco------------------*Winger*--
---------Osorio---------Bradley---------
-----------*CDM Destroyer*------------
If we can keep Cheyrou for 200k or less I'd put him in ahead of Oso but otherwise this has to happen next season

[Bobo]

If we can keep Cheyrou for 200k or less I'd put him in ahead of Oso but otherwise this has to happen next season

I'd keep him too ideally, but they'd need cap space to sign at least one capable winger and CDM, without taking into account the defensive mess. Sacrifices are going to have to be made somewhere.

Findley I assume is (thankfully) out of contract?

[OgtheDim]

I'd keep him too ideally, but they'd need cap space to sign at least one capable winger and CDM, without taking into account the defensive mess. Sacrifices are going to have to be made somewhere.

Findley I assume is (thankfully) out of contract?

Journos seem to think Findley is coming back on a renegotiated contract.

[MightyDM]

I actually prefer a 4-2-3-1 with essentially a midfield triangle, with Bradley at the apex. A bit harder on Givinco to be on the left but with a holdup player - Moore or Gomez would work perfectly well in this role, but Altidore if he is playing - we could be very effective. Creates a problem for Oso (where is his position?) but properly defends the back four. And you could still use Cheyrou here if a good defensive player was beside him.. Man U is playing like this right now. Could also put Gio up front but no place for Jozy then

[Kamp Berg]

I actually prefer a 4-2-3-1 with essentially a midfield triangle, with Bradley at the apex. A bit harder on Givinco to be on the left but with a holdup player - Moore or Gomez would work perfectly well in this role, but Altidore if he is playing - we could be very effective. Creates a problem for Oso (where is his position?) but properly defends the back four. And you could still use Cheyrou here if a good defensive player was beside him.. Man U is playing like this right now. Could also put Gio up front but no place for Jozy then

Why couldn't Osorio play on the right of the front 3 (other than his lack of pace)?

[MightyDM]

Why couldn't Osorio play on the right of the front 3 (other than his lack of pace)?

he could. Has to keep out Delgado or Findley there.

[Bobo]

I actually prefer a 4-2-3-1 with essentially a midfield triangle, with Bradley at the apex. A bit harder on Givinco to be on the left but with a holdup player - Moore or Gomez would work perfectly well in this role, but Altidore if he is playing - we could be very effective. Creates a problem for Oso (where is his position?) but properly defends the back four. And you could still use Cheyrou here if a good defensive player was beside him.. Man U is playing like this right now. Could also put Gio up front but no place for Jozy then

We saw with the 4-2-3-1 that Seba gets isolated at ST and can't get into the game as much. It also eliminates the crossing game. Having him on the wing is no problem, he's played there many times over his career.


Why couldn't Osorio play on the right of the front 3 (other than his lack of pace)?

The pace factor is key but I also don't think he has the eye for goal. He has CM written all over him, let's not start hoping for another year of playing guys out of position.