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Initial B
11-03-2015, 09:13 AM
I just thought I'd add this since there seems to be an assumption that the majority want Vanney gone. Hopefully this will clear things up. Trying again, Just give me a couple of minutes to add the poll.

Oldtimer
11-03-2015, 10:16 AM
I would read answer #2 as keep Vanney unless Kreis comes along.

T-boy
11-03-2015, 10:25 AM
I voted yes. We are building a team, we took steps forward this season.

However - if we hired Kreis I wouldn't be pissed. But I wouldn't expect TFC to make the play-offs in Kreis' first season - in which case we will probably be in the same place next year (arguing whether Kries deserves another season or not).

Oldtimer
11-03-2015, 10:28 AM
I voted yes. We are building a team, we took steps forward this season.

However - if we hired Kreis I wouldn't be pissed. But I wouldn't expect TFC to make the play-offs in Kreis' first season - in which case we will probably be in the same place next year (arguing whether Kries deserves another season or not).

Then the argument would be that Kreis was a great MLS 2.0 coach but doesn't know MLS 3.0. A negative narrative can always be found.

Bobo
11-03-2015, 10:32 AM
I chose option #2 but stretched its meaning to "anyone with some managerial clout." If history is any indication, management would pick the first noob without any experience or guy with a track record of failure. As much as I have grown to dislike Vanney, the club really cannot afford to do that again.

Initial B
11-03-2015, 10:53 AM
I would read answer #2 as keep Vanney unless Kreis comes along.
Yes, that was what I was going for with question 2. I'm not sure I'd want another manager unless it was Arena or Sigi. What I'm getting from this is that the Majority want to keep Vanney unless they can get Kreis. However, if the TFC FO takes a pass on Kreis, I'm assuming that a minority would be okay with that and the majority could live with it.

Joe Kool
11-03-2015, 10:57 AM
I don't like all the turnover at TFC so I really wanted Vanney to work out and didn't want to see more change but at the same time I don't like the fact that Vanney talked to Bradley to find out what is going on with the team during the last few games and the fact that Bradley seems to have so much say and Vanney either allows it or is told to allow it. It doesn't give me a very easy feeling with Vanney going forward although at times he seemed decent enough especially compared to some of the coaches we have had. TFC lacked motivation and any tactics to handle Montreal in the last two games once Montreal adjusted their tactics. I don't think he handled it well but then again you have to go through that to learn and to become better at coaching those situations. Just wish it wasn't TFC that he was learning at. I don't know what to think. Luckily it is not my decision. I have enough stress in my life. I will just watch and wait to see what they do.

T-boy
11-03-2015, 11:15 AM
Then the argument would be that Kreis was a great MLS 2.0 coach but doesn't know MLS 3.0. A negative narrative can always be found.

I just think no matter who is the coach ever, they will always realistically need at least a season to get the team playing "their way". It's unrealistic to think that a new coach can have instant success (those coaches who do normally have a short term success, but we are looking for long term).

Super
11-03-2015, 11:24 AM
I was going to say: only get rid of Vanney if you have a replacement. But hearing the players at the press conference throw him under the bus, I have to say that we need to get rid of him now. He's lost the dressing room. Pretty much what we saw in the last couple of games as well.

Auzzy
11-03-2015, 12:15 PM
I was going to say: only get rid of Vanney if you have a replacement. But hearing the players at the press conference throw him under the bus, I have to say that we need to get rid of him now. He's lost the dressing room. Pretty much what we saw in the last couple of games as well.

Well now that Manning has said they're keeping Vanney, maybe we will lose some players instead. Some good ones.

MartinUtd
11-03-2015, 01:36 PM
I thought I was on the fence until the news from Manning this morning that he's likely to stay. It made me realize I have zero faith in Vanney both tactically and in terms of commanding respect. Hopefully I'm wrong, but as it turns out I'm an anti-Vanney partisan and I only just found out.

Ultra & Proud
11-03-2015, 01:47 PM
Next season is a wash already. Going to be a long, long year with no signs of TFC PTSD being abated.

Edit - Barring a lot of amazing player moves and if I trust the words today of sticking with the team we have for the most part, I say no playoffs in 2016.

ryan
11-03-2015, 01:52 PM
Then the argument would be that Kreis was a great MLS 2.0 coach but doesn't know MLS 3.0. A negative narrative can always be found.

At this point I don't believe Vanney gets 1.0, 2.0 or 3.0. So there's that.

Ultra & Proud
11-03-2015, 01:54 PM
At this point I don't believe Vanney gets 1.0, 2.0 or 3.0. So there's that.
Nice and sadly true.

Cashcleaner
11-03-2015, 02:28 PM
Then the argument would be that Kreis was a great MLS 2.0 coach but doesn't know MLS 3.0. A negative narrative can always be found.

Waiting patiently for ensco to jump in on this... g:D

dreaddogs
11-03-2015, 04:38 PM
does anyone know if coaches salary makes up part of the salary cap. I would love to see CAPELLO here. He will attract a lot of good players... next step for MLS is to attract designated coaches....

Auzzy
11-03-2015, 04:40 PM
does anyone know if coaches salary makes up part of the salary cap. I would love to see CAPELLO here. He will attract a lot of good players... next step for MLS is to attract designated coaches....

There is no cap on coach's salaries, and they are not part of the player's salary budget. Some people have guessed that MLS may have some role in hiring/selection of coaches, but we really have no idea.

notthesun
11-03-2015, 05:48 PM
Capello is the rumored target for NYCFC actually.

CanadaLFC
11-03-2015, 05:49 PM
does anyone know if coaches salary makes up part of the salary cap. I would love to see CAPELLO here. He will attract a lot of good players... next step for MLS is to attract designated coaches....

Sounds good in theory, but remember we are still limited by a salary cap. I don't know that someone like Capello will have the knowledge of MLS to be successful. Tactically great coach, but it's a bit different when your dealing with a Kantari, rather than a Cannavaro.

It's absolutely why I would have loved someone like Kreis to be here.

Super
11-03-2015, 06:48 PM
This poll is kinda pointless after today. Vanney is staying, so we have no choice but to "like it" and move along with it. I do like Bill Manning, and I think he's going to be a very strong leader from at the very top. I think that'll help a lot. Also, Kreis is clearly not coming here, at least now, so it's time to face the facts and move on - and to throw our support behind Vanney for now because he's running the team, and there's no point in complaining about it (as much as I don't think he's the right man for the job).

Fix the defense and Vanney will have us in the play-offs - this time with a home fixture. Riskier than a man of experience (such as Kreis) in my opinion, but with Giovinco anything is possible.

barticusz
11-03-2015, 10:17 PM
I voted yes but think the time frame is far too short. Greg needs more time, period. Loved Manning comments about him and his decision to keep Vanney.

ronzilla
11-03-2015, 10:29 PM
Vanney making the back-line into a scapegoat when they played the entire season without proper support. What a load. Next year will be a repeat of this year except much worse since Giovinco wil be leaving for the Euro's. You could bring the best defenders in the world and vanney will surely find a way to fuck it up.

Redcoe15
11-03-2015, 11:28 PM
Three years ago, I actually posted that I thought Paul Mariner was doing a good coaching job after TFC's comeback win against Vancouver. And we all know what happened after that. So what the fuck do I know?

lobo
11-03-2015, 11:35 PM
This poll is kinda pointless after today. Vanney is staying, so we have no choice but to "like it" and move along with it. I do like Bill Manning, and I think he's going to be a very strong leader from at the very top. I think that'll help a lot. Also, Kreis is clearly not coming here, at least now, so it's time to face the facts and move on - and to throw our support behind Vanney for now because he's running the team, and there's no point in complaining about it (as much as I don't think he's the right man for the job).

Fix the defense and Vanney will have us in the play-offs - this time with a home fixture. Riskier than a man of experience (such as Kreis) in my opinion, but with Giovinco anything is possible.

Team mgmt said the same thing about Mariner at the end of his disaster, that he would be staying on. I wouldn't expect them to say anything different in public. Behind closed doors, I hope Manning is talking to people about the job.

trane
11-04-2015, 08:38 AM
^ That is what I am thinking. Manning appraised the team well, and I would have to say that while he has given Vanny an ultimatum he must be looking for possible replacement already, and if the right one comes on during the off season I hope that they take him on.

ensco
11-04-2015, 08:45 AM
^ That is what I am thinking. Manning appraised the team well, and I would have to say that while he has given Vanny an ultimatum he must be looking for possible replacement already, and if the right one comes on during the off season I hope that they take him on.

That is possible.

General Woolfe
11-04-2015, 09:50 AM
No for me. Its obvious from basic tactical and organization errors he's not the man to take us forward. The fact that the main reason I think of keeping him is that it would be good not to change managers again so soon is not exactly a ringing endorsement. Even if he stays, and even if we make the playoffs again, I cant see him leading us too a Championship title (which should be a realistic aim for a side with our budget.)

Now where's the poll about firing Bezbatchenko???

starter
11-04-2015, 10:04 AM
Vanney making the back-line into a scapegoat when they played the entire season without proper support. What a load. Next year will be a repeat of this year except much worse since Giovinco wil be leaving for the Euro's. You could bring the best defenders in the world and vanney will surely find a way to fuck it up.

Totally agree that the team shape is responsible for defence issues, as well as lack of quality possession in general, and it is on the coach.

MightyDM
11-04-2015, 10:21 AM
^ That is what I am thinking. Manning appraised the team well, and I would have to say that while he has given Vanny an ultimatum he must be looking for possible replacement already, and if the right one comes on during the off season I hope that they take him on.

yes, it's easy to conclude that Kreis said "I'm not ready to make that kind of decision" or something like that. Interesting to see how it plays out.

MightyDM
11-04-2015, 10:22 AM
Totally agree that the team shape is responsible for defence issues, as well as lack of quality possession in general, and it is on the coach.

This is what I think. I wish I didn't, Vanney has grown on me as a person, I think he is straight up and smart. Unfortunately, he isn't effective at translating those qualities into results.

Ultra & Proud
11-04-2015, 10:46 AM
This is what I think. I wish I didn't, Vanney has grown on me as a person, I think he is straight up and smart. Unfortunately, he isn't effective at translating those qualities into results.
Took him one match in charge to ruin the shape and never fix it.

JohnnyEnglish
11-04-2015, 12:53 PM
I would expect Manning to sit down with Vanney in the near future and discuss his long term vision for the club going forward and to listen to Vanney's plans and philosophy for the coming season.
There has been some progression, although obviously still a lot to to improve. Assuming both parties are in line with their expectations and vision in the short term, I’d give Vanney another half a season before his position is re-evaluated. Although there are examples of quick fixes, and fast turn arounds, stability breeds success, and an open door policy towards coaches, managers and philosophies isn't a model that is likely to bring sustainable success.

TFC_Allez
11-04-2015, 04:34 PM
Replace Vanney with Kreis or not at all. Just my opinion.

Brooker
11-04-2015, 05:54 PM
I've long since thrown in the towel as far as coaching decisions go. Whatever happens, get it over with. We're reaching nervous breakdown territory.

ronzilla
11-04-2015, 09:11 PM
From what I gather, Manning has given Vanney an ultimatum. If the team concedes more than 40 goals next year, Vanney is gone.

I was hoping for something more strict, such as if the team is not above .500 by mid-season, show him the door.

Ajax TFC
11-04-2015, 10:31 PM
There's no way that they've set a GA limit. Coaches are judged based on results, not on their statistics

ronzilla
11-04-2015, 11:04 PM
There's no way that they've set a GA limit. Coaches are judged based on results, not on their statistics

Actually it was 45 goals.

*The team can’t concede more than 45 goals in 2016."


*The expectation is for Vanney’s side to collect a minimum of eight points through its first eight games. "

http://www.torontosun.com/2015/11/03/tfc-brass-embarrassed-vow-to-make-amends-in-16

notthesun
11-04-2015, 11:11 PM
There's no way that they've set a GA limit. Coaches are judged based on results, not on their statistics

Manning straight up says in his press conference he told Vanney the team has to allow 45 goals or less next year.

It's not so much the number itself, that's just about where you need your defense to be at to be a successful team. 45 GA is about average. If our offense stays the same but our defense improves to 45 GA, we probably jump up a few spots in the table.

Super
11-05-2015, 12:24 AM
Manning straight up says in his press conference he told Vanney the team has to allow 45 goals or less next year.

It's not so much the number itself, that's just about where you need your defense to be at to be a successful team. 45 GA is about average. If our offense stays the same but our defense improves to 45 GA, we probably jump up a few spots in the table.

Let's not get stuck on the 8 pts in 8 games, and "45 goals or less" statements. At the end of the day it's all about one thing: are we winning. I never cared if we conceded goals as much as we were winning games, and climbing the table. It's fine to talk about goals at the half mark or whatever, but at the end of the day if you can't field a good squad, or coach it properly, then we will end up with the short end of the stick.

Auzzy
11-05-2015, 01:25 AM
Let's not get stuck on the 8 pts in 8 games, and "45 goals or less" statements. At the end of the day it's all about one thing: are we winning. I never cared if we conceded goals as much as we were winning games, and climbing the table. It's fine to talk about goals at the half mark or whatever, but at the end of the day if you can't field a good squad, or coach it properly, then we will end up with the short end of the stick.

I actually think "45 goals or less" is key, because it's a benchmark to aim for in improving the defence, after it was so awful this year. Sure if TFC scores more goals than the opponent they win no matter what. But scoring goals in footy is hard. Even Seba went cold for bits here in there. If teams learn better ways to shutdown Seba; or if there are some injuries & international absences, they should be able to grind out wins & ties with a stingy defence, even if they aren't scoring many goals.

jimiv
11-05-2015, 10:40 AM
I'm all for stability and agree with Manning that the team needs it, unfortunately I don't believe Vanney is the guy that they should be starting the stability era with.

trane
11-05-2015, 12:20 PM
Stability with Vanney means giving up giving up 1.7 goals a game. That is not stability that wins.

jloome
11-05-2015, 12:41 PM
Stability with Vanney means giving up giving up 1.7 goals a game. That is not stability that wins.

I have to wonder why on Earth he took away Caldwell's captaincy. Stripping it from a player who has captained throughout his career and giving it to Bradley, who seems completely focussed on playing and not motivating teammates, was absolutely asinine. Caldwell might have been the steadying influence on Perquis all season that we needed.

Dumb decision with vast consequences, sort of like signing a striker whose mother really runs the show.

Richard
11-05-2015, 06:48 PM
“At the end of the day, people don’t follow armbands—they follow leaders.” -Steven Caldwell

That really was a dumb move by TFC.

MightyDM
11-05-2015, 09:12 PM
Took him one match in charge to ruin the shape and never fix it.

I'd never thought of it that way, but you are right.

MightyDM
11-05-2015, 09:14 PM
I have to wonder why on Earth he took away Caldwell's captaincy. Stripping it from a player who has captained throughout his career and giving it to Bradley, who seems completely focussed on playing and not motivating teammates, was absolutely asinine. Caldwell might have been the steadying influence on Perquis all season that we needed.

Dumb decision with vast consequences, sort of like signing a striker whose mother really runs the show.

i was disappointed at the time but didn't see the significance. You are right, and they should have seen that.

MightyDM
11-05-2015, 09:15 PM
Stability with Vanney means giving up giving up 1.7 goals a game. That is not stability that wins.


Usually in in the first half, too.

Oldtimer
11-06-2015, 09:48 AM
The question's been answered, most are willing to ditch Vanney either outright or if a much better coach comes along. Now the discussion is duplicating the "deathwatch" thread, so closing this so that we can have the Vanney must go sentiments in one thread:

http://forums.redpatchboys.ca/showthread.php?37629-The-Vanney-Era-Deathwatch-Thread/page49