Bill Manning appointed TFC President

[Detroit_TFC]

Larson reporting that former Real Salt Lake team president Bill Manning has been hired as TFC team president.

[Pint]

Interesting, will be fun to see how he uses a club with the financial might of mlse.

[tfcmanu]

Congratulate Bill

https://www.linkedin.com/pub/bill-manning/6/170/289

[Jpexxx]

http://www.torontosun.com/2015/10/12/bill-manning-named-toronto-fc-president

[sidvan]

http://www.torontofc.ca/news/2015/10/bill-manning-named-president-toronto-fc

[OgtheDim]

So much for the Italian management project.

[Ossington Mental Youth]

So much for the Italian management project.
Lthis makes way more sense imo

[Yohan]

in the end, MLS experience trumps over all other considerations

Manning is an interesting case. He did a lot to turn a previously unknown market at SLC into a soccer loving town on a limited budget. Kinda remarkable actually. So he knows a bit about brand building and he'll fight tooth and nail to preserve the TFC experience at BMO Field.

[Detroit_TFC]

My first reaction was that it perhaps was less ambitious but positions TFC well within the MLSE structure, and has instant credibility within MLS.

[Cashcleaner]

He's been involved with the league for almost a decade now. I wonder if that will be enough MLS experience for some of us? g:D

Jokes aside, I'm pretty stoked about this news. RSL has become a solid organization in MLS under his leadership, with successes both on and of the pitch. Just think what he could bring to the table with the financial backing of Rogers and Bell.

[Oldtimer]

A real positive is that he will already know Vanney's strong and weak points from RSL, can properly evaluate him without feeling a need to dump him just to "get his own guy."

Also Vanney will have worked for him before, so there is already that relationship. Bez will know him from Bez's time at the league office.

Having a president shows MLSE taking TFC seriously. No downsides that I can see to this.

[notthesun]

Seems like a great move by all accounts.

[Ajax TFC]

FINALLY!! This is what many of us have been begging for for years. An experienced soccer guy as the president (and NOT GM) of the club. Someone who can be a steady presence at the top of the organizational structure, have the competence to guide the direction of the organization, while not being directly liable for results.

We asked for one in 2012 when the club was a complete circus with the likes of Mariner and the Cock running the show through lies and taking advantage of Anselmi's complete lack of understanding of the game. What we got was an improvement over that, but it was fucked from the beginning because it was a president AND GM. Leiweke taking over all of MLSE was the closest thing we've had to a real president at TFC, because he actually had a clue, but from practically the beginning he was already on his way out again. Now, three years after we really started to ask for one, we finally have that president, and I couldn't be happier with his experience. This is a guy who has the experience that I can trust him to hire and fire people

[Oldtimer]

http://www.sportsnet.ca/soccer/ex-rsl-boss-manning-hired-as-new-tfc-president/

[Couchy81]

Solid move. I'd rather have him as pres than someone from overseas who doesn't know the league.

[JayMolly]

in the end, MLS experience trumps over all other considerations

Manning is an interesting case. He did a lot to turn a previously unknown market at SLC into a soccer loving town on a limited budget. Kinda remarkable actually. So he knows a bit about brand building and he'll fight tooth and nail to preserve the TFC experience at BMO Field.

We agree and hope you are correct about preserving the TFC experience at BMO!

[GonfiaLaRete]

About time!! Nice to know we will have a soccer guy on our side!!!

[mowe]

Great move. Really the ideal candidate to work as the link between Bez and MLSE.

[Richard]

I think this is an excellent move and since we now have a bonafide president its time we move to a more traditional structure with Vanney as full manager. I'm still not comfortable with Bez as GM and making talent evaluation decisions, I rather they retain him for contracts and league negotiations.

[Oldtimer]

I think this is an excellent move and since we now have a bonafide president its time we move to a more traditional structure with Vanney as full manager. I'm still not comfortable with Bez as GM and making talent evaluation decisions, I rather they retain him for contracts and league negotiations.

If you look at RSL, they had Lagerway as "GM." He just did the contracts, maybe watched the "cap," Kreis built the team. I imagine TFC will follow the same path.

[ag futbol]

If you look at RSL, they had Lagerway as "GM." He just did the contracts, maybe watched the "cap," Kreis built the team. I imagine TFC will follow the same path.
What's your source on this? There are numerous references out there to Lagerway Scouting and his network.

I fail to see any negatives about this move. Hopefully it frees up some of the staff to focus on the team more while Manning handles the business side.

[adam1001]

Kind of reminiscent of the Kevin Payne move. Hopefully, things work out for the better this time around.

[portu]

Wait, so what exactly is his role as president?

[Red CB Toronto]

Nice to see as per Kurt Larson's tweet.

Kurtis Larson ‏@KurtLarSUN (https://twitter.com/KurtLarSUN) 23m23 minutes ago (https://twitter.com/KurtLarSUN/status/653627241595736065)
New TFC president Bill Manning tells @TheTorontoSun (https://twitter.com/TheTorontoSun) he plans to meet with supporters: 'Absolutely. One of the first things I did at RSL."

[ManUtd4ever]

This seems like a very sensible hire.

[ensco]

I don't really understand these team President structures. I mean, now that he hired Lamoriello, what does Shanahan do all day?

I would have vastly preferred Lagerwey because that Talent ID skillset is so difficult in MLS.

I think I am agnostic on this hire, until I see what he does with Bez (maybe Vanney too). I am tired of the MLSE special, where the new guy has to work with people hired by others.

It may be that Bez needs to go as a demonstration of a healthy functioning FO (I say that regardless of your opinion of Bez).

[TFC07]

On paper, seems like a good hire, but Toronto isn't small market like Salt Lake so it will be interesting to see if new president can adjust to this market and culture (big money spending to dealing with politics of MLSE ownership).

[OgtheDim]

Some tweets on this


https://twitter.com/JohnMolinaro/status/653644906053828608



https://twitter.com/JohnMolinaro/status/653649383217430528

https://twitter.com/JohnMolinaro/status/653646461347860480

https://twitter.com/KurtLarSUN/status/653629561477795840

[Ivy]

What's happening at RSL??

[FC_Hali]

Really like this signing, seems like Manning was the best 'MLS guy' available. Hopefully our FO is now settled and we finally see some stability for the next few years.

[Oldtimer]

I don't really understand these team President structures. I mean, now that he hired Lamoriello, what does Shanahan do all day?

I would have vastly preferred Lagerwey because that Talent ID skillset is so difficult in MLS.

I think I am agnostic on this hire, until I see what he does with Bez (maybe Vanney too). I am tired of the MLSE special, where the new guy has to work with people hired by others.

It may be that Bez needs to go as a demonstration of a healthy functioning FO (I say that regardless of your opinion of Bez).

The tweets show that he genuinely doesn’t want to change things. He's no MLSE lackey, he could have gone to the Impact or other clubs, so I believe what he's quoted as saying.

He already knows Vanney from RSL, so I'm sure he already has his opinion of him. If he thinks Vanney can continue to grow as a coach, I think we should defer to his judgement... after all RSL were a great MLS 2.0 club even without the bucks.

[molenshtain]

COMPETENT MANAGEMENT IN MAKING COMPETENT DECISION SHOCKER!

All jokes aside, I'm very happy about this. This hire was about getting the right guy to build the club off the field, in both stature and infrastructure. The best guy for that by a mile in this league is Manning.

[Detroit_TFC]

He's saying what has to be said right now, right at the tail end of the season with p******s almost but not quite locked down. But as others have said, he already knows the key people, that is an enormous plus.

[ensco]

The tweets show that he genuinely doesn’t want to change things. He's no MLSE lackey, he could have gone to the Impact or other clubs, so I believe what he's quoted as saying.


You don't need to be a lackey to become quickly captive to the decisions of others.

This isn't Lou Lamiorello. The number of execs who tell their bosses where to get off is not large. We'll see.

[billyfly]

Let's see what happens.

[Ossington Mental Youth]

Had an interesting but limited discussion over twitter with @ENBSports regarding this signing. He suggested it wasnt really all that great because RSLs best days are behind them ie he hasnt done anything ot make them competitive in the last few seasons and that Vanney is out of his depth and will be staying because of this new Pres. I personally am waiting to see what happens, feel like a lot more is behind RSL faltering over the last few seasons and im very curious to see what Manning can do WITH financial backing...

[molenshtain]

Had an interesting but limited discussion over twitter with @ENBSports regarding this signing. He suggested it wasnt really all that great because RSLs best days are behind them ie he hasnt done anything ot make them competitive in the last few seasons and that Vanney is out of his depth and will be staying because of this new Pres. I personally am waiting to see what happens, feel like a lot more is behind RSL faltering over the last few seasons and im very curious to see what Manning can do WITH financial backing...

Manning didn't have a lot to do with what happened on the field. He had Lagerway to sign players and Kreis out there to put it all together. The great thing Manning was able to do was to consistently sell out an 18K stadium in Salt Lake city as well as building the biggest and most productive academy in the league with a seemingly tiny talent pool. We're fine on the field with Bez and Vanney. Manning's been brought in to do the same job he did off the field he did in Salt Lake, but in a far bigger market and a much bigger youth talent pool to work with.

[OgtheDim]

What's happening at RSL??

Kreis left for a team with more resources.

Other 2 not interested in another rebuild.

Lagerway goes to Seattle where they will be retooling over the next 2 seasons but not like RSL.

Manning goes to TFC who are on the rise.

[OgtheDim]

Had an interesting but limited discussion over twitter with @ENBSports regarding this signing.....


All you need to know about @ENBSports on this issue is his tweet about this being just a random guy being signed. This random guy is 2014 exec of the year.

[Redcoe15]

I love this hire. But I won't get excited and jump up and down for joy calling this a game changer for TFC, because I've done this kind of shit in the past and it always blows up in the club's face. Better wait to see how all this unfolds first.

Call me cautiously optimistic, if you must.

[Ossington Mental Youth]

All you need to know about @ENBSports on this issue is his tweet about this being just a random guy being signed. This random guy is 2014 exec of the year.

Hes a bit more credible than that, not saying he convinced me either, either way felt they were some interesting points worth looking at

[OgtheDim]

Ur right. Just, that line was so off. Like, come on, he's no random dude.

I sometimes think the analytics guy's focus on stats gets in the way of them understanding what the President role can do, or not do, for a franchise. Manning isn't going to get us a player. But he will set/confirm the template which will focus the getting of players.

[MightyDM]

He sounds like the right guy from lots of perspectives. But. The big issues for TFC will be won or lost in the boardroom. Tim L helped us there, a lot, and it is hard to escape the conclusion that he became a threat to Larry T's control of MLSE and was therefore manoeuvred out. manning will be Larrys guy, for better or worse. And, while I don't think Larry is ill motivated, he did buy the Argos and put them in BMO, so he needs watching.

[molenshtain]

He sounds like the right guy from lots of perspectives. But. The big issues for TFC will be won or lost in the boardroom. Tim L helped us there, a lot, and it is hard to escape the conclusion that he became a threat to Larry T's control of MLSE and was therefore manoeuvred out. manning will be Larrys guy, for better or worse. And, while I don't think Larry is ill motivated, he did buy the Argos and put them in BMO, so he needs watching.

Leiweke was supposed to leave five months ago. Manning is Leiweke's replacement as our voice in the boardroom. Leiweke's work is done here and He'll be in LA by april.

So that's not really an issue, is it?

[ag futbol]

He sounds like the right guy from lots of perspectives. But. The big issues for TFC will be won or lost in the boardroom. Tim L helped us there, a lot, and it is hard to escape the conclusion that he became a threat to Larry T's control of MLSE and was therefore manoeuvred out. manning will be Larrys guy, for better or worse. And, while I don't think Larry is ill motivated, he did buy the Argos and put them in BMO, so he needs watching.
Larry, until Bell / Rogers start feuding with each other, is largely a figure head. This isn't the OTPP power vacuum he previously operated in, these guys are active.

Minority shareholder with the other two forced by contract to vote in a block ... His bark is bigger than his bite.

[Ajax TFC]

For everyone wondering what the role of a president is:
The role of the president is basically to do what Tom Anselmi's job was, except instead of a real estate developer we now have someone who understands the game and the league. His job is to organize the structure of the organization. If the coach or GM leaves (fired, or other reason), who hires their replacement? Without a president who's knowledgeable about the game and the league at the top, it would be the MLSE board who would be hiring our new GM or coach. And while a coach or GM has to come up with results now to keep their jobs, the president is evaluated over a much longer period of time. The president sets a direction for the club, hires people who he thinks will fit, and fires and replaces them if they don't work.

[ensco]

For everyone wondering what the role of a president is:
The role of the president is basically to do what Tom Anselmi's job was, except instead of a real estate developer we now have someone who understands the game and the league. His job is to organize the structure of the organization. If the coach or GM leaves (fired, or other reason), who hires their replacement? Without a president who's knowledgeable about the game and the league at the top, it would be the MLSE board who would be hiring our new GM or coach. And while a coach or GM has to come up with results now to keep their jobs, the president is evaluated over a much longer period of time. The president sets a direction for the club, hires people who he thinks will fit, and fires and replaces them if they don't work.

This is a fad with unproven outcomes. Frankly, in general it seems to me that most of these setups are designed to have competing power structures in perpetual battle.

Give me Lagerwey as GM and no President and I personally would have been a hell of a lot happier.

[Ajax TFC]

Kind of reminiscent of the Kevin Payne move. Hopefully, things work out for the better this time around.
Kevin Payne was hired as president AND GM. That's the big difference. Making him GM as well made him too close to the team and put him in a position where he would be directly responsible for the failings of the first team. He also had the misfortune of having Lieweke come in at MLSE and (unofficially) personally take over the role of TFC president. With Lieweke leaving now, we need someone who can fill the void at the top of the TFC organization and essentially do what Lieweke did with respect to TFC.

[Ajax TFC]

This is a fad with unproven outcomes. Frankly, in general it seems to me that most of these setups are designed to have competing power structures in perpetual battle.

Give me Lagerwey as GM and no President and I personally would have been a hell of a lot happier.
How does it create competing power structures? Having a president gives you one guy in charge of the whole organization (first team, academy, scouting, etc.) with no doubt about who has the power. Everyone answers to that guy. Most teams have a president or a board above the manager. The MLSE board doesn't have anyone that knows anything about running a soccer team, and has many other divisions to run, which is why you need a specialized executive to run that division.

You want Lagerway as GM, but who hires him? Who evaluates his performance? The MLSE board? And who sets up and runs the other parts of the organization like the academy and scouting network? That's a bit outside of the scope of the GM's role. And the MLSE board isn't qualified to make those kinds of decisions.

[Auzzy]

I'm very happy with this appointment, no doubt about it.

[notthesun]

You want Lagerway as GM, but who hires him? Who evaluates his performance? The MLSE board? And who sets up and runs the other parts of the organization like the academy and scouting network? That's a bit outside of the scope of the GM's role. And the MLSE board isn't qualified to make those kinds of decisions.

Exactly right. You need someone at the top that knows a thing or two about what's going on below him. So many high-level decisions in the past that have blown up in our face wouldn't have happened with someone like Manning steering the ship... for instance there's no way we ever would have hired Klinsmann as a consultant to pick our new coach, an utterly ridiculous concept from the beginning.

[mowe]

Not the mention all of the business stuff that will now be handled by Manning.

[OgtheDim]

He's the stadium runner. It will be his call on grass, turf, or desso. His relationship to the supporters groups will be interesting. The RIOT isn't the same level.

[cdnorman]

The game is so big and complex from an organizational standpoint that clubs pretty much need a president. A GM helps build the product on the field, the coach/manager gets it to work and the president ensures there are enough scarves sold, sponsors secured, a solid stadium, and that the training facilities are built, maintained with the appropriate staff to operate them. It requires knowledge of the game and the way sports operates (because ultimately it involves oversight of the GM and manager to some extent), but it's more around the business of football. The President also reports to the board and makes the pitches for funding and such. It's an important role, but its relationship to the product on the field is a bit distant on a day-to-day basis in most clubs.

[ensco]

I like any "team" concept of management, where there is good cohesion of thinking.

Let us hope that is what we will get here.

It's not obvious that bringing in the biggest name last is the way to do this.

[Phil]

This is a fad with unproven outcomes. Frankly, in general it seems to me that most of these setups are designed to have competing power structures in perpetual battle.

Give me Lagerwey as GM and no President and I personally would have been a hell of a lot happier.

To me, its just representation at the board level and directional leadership for the actual team (we need it all from all accounts). I will give it a shot, but agree with the idea of having the wait and see approach. We have all been to the circus too many times.

[Fort York Redcoat]

He's the stadium runner. It will be his call on grass, turf, or desso. His relationship to the supporters groups will be interesting. The RIOT isn't the same level.

It may be his to sign off on but I won't hold my breath on changes for the 2016 season regarding the grass vs desso or straight to turf.

I think this is a case of just using grass to get past the Grey Cup and hockey classics and then put in something to care about surface wise.

[cdnorman]

The game is so big and complex from an organizational standpoint that clubs pretty much need a president. A GM helps build the product on the field, the coach/manager gets it to work and the president ensures there are enough scarves sold, sponsors secured, a solid stadium, and that the training facilities are built, maintained with the appropriate staff to operate them. It requires knowledge of the game and the way sports operates (because ultimately it involves oversight of the GM and manager to some extent), but it's more around the business of football. The President also reports to the board and makes the pitches for funding and such. It's an important role, but its relationship to the product on the field is a bit distant on a day-to-day basis in most clubs.

[Initial B]

I'm going to hope, but expect things will go sideways at some point like only TFC can. I just have to manage my expectations about this hire.

[Qman]

This is a laughable hire as long a TL is still around. He's just a empty suit until TL leaves. TL loves MLS and is pulling all the strings for all TFC decisions. This goes for bez too.

[MightyDM]

Larry, until Bell / Rogers start feuding with each other, is largely a figure head. This isn't the OTPP power vacuum he previously operated in, these guys are active.

Minority shareholder with the other two forced by contract to vote in a block ... His bark is bigger than his bite.

I think you are misjudging this one. Larry T made the announcement, Larry T got the Argos in here (over the opposition of soccer folks, according to some rumours at the time), Larry T has stepped into the Sportsnet / TSN rift very nicely, thank you. He bears watching.

[ag futbol]

Don't confuse being a public face with decisions of real consequence. They let him go to the NHL BOG meetings too (right from the start), it doesn't mean he's important.

The Argos are here because the increased seating capacity associated with winter classics. I put little stock into anything else.

[MightyDM]

Don't confuse being a public face with decisions of real consequence. They let him go to the NHL BOG meetings too (right from the start), it doesn't mean he's important.

The Argos are here because the increased seating capacity associated with winter classics. I put little stock into anything else.

Larry has cleverly stepped in and has regained much of his lost authority since the Bell/Rogers animosity. First consequence: Tim L. Not needed if your chair is really active. Again, it isn't necessarily bad, but the Argos situation should make us all wary of his increasing influence.

i am ok that you don't agree with me, but there is no other way to read recent events.

[OgtheDim]

If the Christmas tree builder was in charge, MLSE would have bought the Argos.

Nah, he's a figurehead.

[Ivy]

Thanks Manning for bringing playoffs to Toronto! Greatest signing ever.

[Cashcleaner]

^ Only a few days into the job, and he's already paying off!

[ensco]

The AA story today is making me wonder - will the same drama play out for TFC post season? Or has Bez made his peace with being a second fiddle?

[Qman]

The AA story today is making me wonder - will the same drama play out for TFC post season? Or has Bez made his peace with being a second fiddle?

Bez was just TL's bag carrier. Don't see him lasting past TL leaving

[ensco]

Bez was just TL's bag carrier. Don't see him lasting past TL leaving

That could be, but I have respect for the capologist side of Bez. I just never thought he should be having the ultimate say in evaluating talent.

Bez being the "GM" (title only) with the personnel decisions sitting with Manning, might work for both.

[Yohan]

That could be, but I have respect for the capologist side of Bez. I just never thought he should be having the ultimate say in evaluating talent.

Bez being the "GM" (title only) with the personnel decisions sitting with Manning, might work for both.

Manning's job shouldn't be involved with player decisions, except negotiating the deal for DPs maybe.

Either you trust the guy to job his properly according to his job description or fire him. Nobody will work for a lame duck

[ensco]

Manning's job shouldn't be involved with player decisions, except negotiating the deal for DPs maybe.

Either you trust the guy to job his properly according to his job description or fire him. Nobody will work for a lame duck

I get that if you are AA, but I don't see that as so automatic if you are Bez. Bez is 32 years old, with no track record.

[Yohan]

I get that if you are AA, but I don't see that as so automatic if you are Bez. Bez is 32 years old, with no track record.

It doesn't matter. Bez has the title and expected to do the job when hired. Reducing his responsibility will be seen ad a demotion

[molenshtain]

To be fair to Bez, he's had a fuck ton on his plate the last two season's. Building a full-scale scouting network and properly evaluating each individual player himself probably would have been pretty hard to do. Now that he's in full control of roster managment and Manning can take on the exectuive side of running the club we'l most likely get a significantly more clear picture of how capable Bez is at his position. looking in from the outside, I think he has a pretty clear idea of what work's inside the league and what doesn't. This will be a very telling off-season.

[Auzzy]

Are they really building a scouting network? I don't know, that's been bandied about by a couple of TFC regimes. I'll believe it when I see it, or the effects of it.

[Yohan]

Are they really building a scouting network? I don't know, that's been bandied about by a couple of TFC regimes. I'll believe it when I see it, or the effects of it.

I'm sure TFC has a scouting network. it doesn't mean it's any good...

[vortexdr]

So I'm curious has this guy accomplished anything in pro-football?

[SenorDingDong]

He's won the MLS Cup in 2009 and came runner up in 2013. So, yes.

[ensco]

Seems to me we need to hear from this guy sooner than later.

[Yohan]

Seems to me we need to hear from this guy sooner than later.

I agree. preferably deeds, not words but after last night's shocking defeat, the new boss needs to at least explain how he's going to fix it for next season

[ensco]

I agree. preferably deeds, not words but after last night's shocking defeat, the new boss needs to at least explain how he's going to fix it for next season

He needs to either back Bez/Vanney, or blow them out, by the end of next week.

[Areathrasher]

Will there be some sort of locker clearing out day/media availability? Presume that's when he'd speak.

[Oldtimer]

I'm sure TFC has a scouting network. it doesn't mean it's any good...

Under Mo the "scouting network" was one player agent.

[Ultra & Proud]

Seems to me we need to hear from this guy sooner than later.
I think he has kept his distance as he had nothing to do with this squad, good or bad depending on how the season went.

After the post-mortem and subsequent burials of Vanney and probably Bez then Manning will appear with TL and say all the right things.

[Areathrasher]

https://twitter.com/KurtLarSUN/status/660103976436666369

[MightyDM]

The Globe today has a good piece about Liewike. very very clear that Larry Tanenbaum runs the show at MLSE. And by inference, TL was pushed out to free up control for him.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/amid-tension-at-mlse-tim-leiweke-put-toronto-on-the-sports-map/article27053245/

[ag futbol]

The Globe today has a good piece about Liewike. very very clear that Larry Tanenbaum runs the show at MLSE. And by inference, TL was pushed out to free up control for him.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/amid-tension-at-mlse-tim-leiweke-put-toronto-on-the-sports-map/article27053245/
Again, he's largely a figure head. They gave him positions that are largely meaningless to keep him out of the way.

Leiweke is about what Bogers wants, end of story. If he only drove Tanenbaum nuts that probably would have been considered a net positive.

[ensco]

Manning has made his first big call by declining to do the obvious right thing and hire Kreis.

While I might disagree with his call, I am impressed by the clarity of his thinking in the press conference today.

What he implied but couldn't say: this wouldn't have been just about Vanney, it would have required massive roster changes (and really, as I have argued, the departure of Bez too). Manning has decided to give everybody a year, rather than rip it apart right away. Given our history of turmoil here, it is hard to argue.

I am impressed.

[QBall]

I found it odd today when Manning said he told Vanney he wants eight points through the first eight games next season since they'll all be on the road. Is he setting the bar low? Does Vanney get sacked if the team fails to get 8 points?

[Ossington Mental Youth]

Manning has made his first big call by declining to do the obvious right thing and hire Kreis.

While I might disagree with his call, I am impressed by the clarity of his thinking in the press conference today.

We he implied but couldn't say: this wouldn't have been just about Vanney, it would have required massive roster changes (and really, as I have argued, the departure of Bez too). Manning has decided to give everybody a year, rather than rip it apart right away. Given our history of turmoil here, it is hard to argue.

I am impressed.

Im pleased, did what i expected and hoped him to do.
Nice to have clarity for goals as well as direction

[notthesun]

I found it odd today when Manning said he told Vanney he wants eight points through the first eight games next season since they'll all be on the road. Is he setting the bar low? Does Vanney get sacked if the team fails to get 8 points?

It's not actually all that low. 6 out of 20 teams this year posted better than 1.0 points-per-game on the road. Coming out of an 8 game road trip with 8 points would be about average. From an expectations standpoint that could be considered low, but it isn't statistically.

[barticusz]

I could not be happier with his press conference. Finally someone who has the same opinion as me. Give a coach 3 years to actually develop something and build something rather than constantly make knee jerk reactions. So happy that they are keeping Vanney.

[ronzilla]

:facepalm:

[Yohan]

After seeing the Manning interview, I feel... slightly better but not by much. I think Bill Manning was a little too honest and open in some regards. I'd have never said the bit about Kreis, even if he gets hounded by reporters. Putting Vanney on dead man walking watch... well, I wouldn't have gone that way.

He did make it clear that he's the boss at TFC FO and that he expects results. Whether he can pull off the results or not that remains to be seen, but he's not a stupid man, if he's record says anything.

As for Bez and Vanney... well, they are good talkers. Vanney really should be a youth coach because he does knows the tactics and easier to teach the kids the basics of the game. I hope Vanney can regain the locker room because I felt the players didn't back their manager 100%. Should be interesting off season.

[reggie]

if you look at vanney face you could the bus tire tracks and the players were driving the bus.

[MightyDM]

Again, he's largely a figure head. They gave him positions that are largely meaningless to keep him out of the way.

Leiweke is about what Bogers wants, end of story. If he only drove Tanenbaum nuts that probably would have been considered a net positive.

just to be clear, you are completely wrong here. As reported by the Globe, Larry Tanenbaum runs the show. For a while that was good, but he's the one who brought the Argos in, so we ( TFC supporters) should be cautious

[OgtheDim]

MLSE "who's really in charge" speculation is just that - speculation. I wouldn't count one Globe opinion as any more informed then anything else we've seen. Regardless, all the Presidents sound and act like they are in charge of their divisions, which is the best we can hope for.

We have an experienced soccer guy in charge of the division. That's a good thing. And that soccer guy has told Bez to focus on getting the team right while he deals with the non-player related stuff. That's a good thing.

[trane]

Number one goal is improving the team defensively, so I will keep this manager who has proven that he cannot do it.

Clearly I agree with the premise, I just cannot understand how you keep Vanney.

[Super]

The more I think about Manning the less I like his strategy moving forward. The whole idea that it's apparently always good to give managers 2 season starts, or "stability" as he calls it, is only good if you're dealing with a good coach. It's a terrible idea if you're dealing with a bad coach. I'm not saying Vanney is bad, necessarily, but he's most definitely not proven in any of the categories that would make up a "good" coach. So, that's why I've been asking: do you think that giving Winter or Mariner 2 season starts, thereby creating stability, would have been a good idea? If not, then why is it a good idea now? Manning identified the main problem at TFC as lack of stability, so surely he would have also given Winter or Mariner more time, right? Well, we all know that would have been a terrible idea. Neither were right for this club. Nor is Vanney. The correct identification of our problem is that we hire the wrong coaches. We have matured and grown as a club, and we can't just bring in any former player and hope that they can turn into great coaches overnight. They can't. They won't. Sometimes they do, but ALL of our picks have proven to be far too green/inexperienced to run the club correctly.

I'm all for stability, and in my view Kreis should have been given a 2nd year at NYCFC. Their fans sure seem to feel so. But it's easier to create stability around a guy who has proven that he can do the job vs. a guy that's questionable. Instead, Manning talks the big talk about stability while giving Vanney a short leash. That's the opposite of stability. Would you feel secure in your job if your boss gave you a "short leash"? Would the people told to follow you feel that you're really in charge? Imagine if your boss was on a short leash. Would you respect him? I probably would respect him less than if he was given a complete vote of confidence from ownership.

So Manning blew this one in my opinion. But that's so TFC.

[MightyDM]

MLSE "who's really in charge" speculation is just that - speculation. I wouldn't count one Globe opinion as any more informed then anything else we've seen. Regardless, all the Presidents sound and act like they are in charge of their divisions, which is the best we can hope for.

We have an experienced soccer guy in charge of the division. That's a good thing. And that soccer guy has told Bez to focus on getting the team right while he deals with the non-player related stuff. That's a good thing.


if we think of Larry Tanenbaum as President of MLSE and the presidents of each team more as GM's that's how it's working: ie if Manning wants to sign a DP he goes to Tanenbaum who decides if it goes to the Board.

A guess, but the fact that Tim L saw himself as reporting to the Board was part of his demise. It's Larry's show.

Now that he owns the Argos it's a cause for concern.

Agreed though, Manning impressed yesterday.

[Ultra & Proud]

Number one goal is improving the team defensively, so I will keep this manager who has proven that he cannot do it.

Clearly I agree with the premise, I just cannot understand how you keep Vanney.
At least we'll still push the fullbacks up and leave our lead footed CBs to fend for themselves. Makes things exciting. Lots of goals.

[Yohan]

At least we'll still push the fullbacks up and leave our lead footed CBs to fend for themselves. Makes things exciting. Lots of goals.

Lead foot... yeah. Josh Williams. Reminds me of Adrian Cann a lot.
A more mobile CB would be nice.

[Ultra & Proud]

Lead foot... yeah. Josh Williams. Reminds me of Adrian Cann a lot.
A more mobile CB would be nice.
But if Vanney sticks to his word and we keep the status quo I would assume we'll see Perquis & Kantari.

[C.Ronaldo]

altidores tweet about formation was interesting.

im not certain who backs vanney in eth lockerroom

but just for playing findley over herc, i have a tough time beileving he knows what hes doing

[Ultra & Proud]

altidores tweet about formation was interesting.

im not certain who backs vanney in eth lockerroom

but just for playing findley over herc, i have a tough time beileving he knows what hes doing

Findley should. Not sure about anyone else.

[billyfly]

if you look at vanney face you could the bus tire tracks and the players were driving the bus.

He seemed pretty relaxed before his turn. Feet on a table.

[Yohan]

More stuff from Bill Manning

http://thelinknewspaper.ca/article/nothing-wrong-with-being-mls

http://thelinknewspaper.ca/blogs/entry/pbht-ep37-major-league-soccer-panel-edition

[Oldtimer]

More stuff from Bill Manning

http://thelinknewspaper.ca/article/nothing-wrong-with-being-mls

http://thelinknewspaper.ca/blogs/entry/pbht-ep37-major-league-soccer-panel-edition

That is great stuff, excellent find!

Here we find out that TFC is worth $195 million and that MLS clubs gross $30-$40 million (I'd assume TFC is on the high end of that scale). It shows why TFC can pay $19 million for 3 DPS. Even when you add the amount that's paid to MLS for the capped players, TFC is almost certainly making money. (As far as the stadium refurbishing costs, that can be covered by some NHL winter games and the Argooos, as well as a portion over 10 years by TFC).

[ag futbol]

That is great stuff, excellent find!

Here we find out that TFC is worth $195 million and that MLS clubs gross $30-$40 million(I'd assume TFC is on the high end of that scale). It shows why TFC can pay $19 million for 3 DPS. Even when you add the amount that's paid to MLS for the capped players, TFC is almost certainly making money. (As far as the stadium refurbishing costs, that can be covered by some NHL winter games and the Argooos, as well as a portion over 10 years by TFC).
Until the CBA comes up then it magically loses money and is on the verge of bankruptcy

[ManUtd4ever]

That is great stuff, excellent find!

Here we find out that TFC is worth $195 million and that MLS clubs gross $30-$40 million (I'd assume TFC is on the high end of that scale). It shows why TFC can pay $19 million for 3 DPS. Even when you add the amount that's paid to MLS for the capped players, TFC is almost certainly making money. (As far as the stadium refurbishing costs, that can be covered by some NHL winter games and the Argooos, as well as a portion over 10 years by TFC).

This information makes the MLS salary cap even more infuriating. It should be at least double the current amount based on these figures.

[OgtheDim]

This information makes the MLS salary cap even more infuriating. It should be at least double the current amount based on these figures.

It easily could be but the Krafts and Hunts of this league want it kept down.

[Ivy]

This information makes the MLS salary cap even more infuriating. It should be at least double the current amount based on these figures.
If they double the salary cap, I suspect close to half the teams in the league will fold or will be endless bottom feeders until the league moves them.

[Oldtimer]

If they double the salary cap, I suspect close to half the teams in the league will fold or will be endless bottom feeders until the league moves them.

If they are grossing $30 million why would that be the case?

[Ivy]

If they are grossing $30 million why would that be the case?
That's the high end of the scale... Those teams won't fold.
Its the DC's and Dallas' of the league that have 10,000 attendance and don't generate much revenue.
Cant see a team like DC, selling 2 dollar beers, being able to pay 7m for the roster alone (considering other costs of running a team in the MLS are about 6miliion per year - last I heard) and still survive.

[shwade]

Why can't the league force sales of teams who are keeping the league down? Fuck them.

[Ivy]

Why can't the league force sales of teams who are keeping the league down? Fuck them.
Hahaha.
Thats very un-'Merica.

[OgtheDim]

..Cant see a team like DC, selling 2 dollar beers, being able to pay 7m for the roster alone (considering other costs of running a team in the MLS are about 6miliion per year - last I heard) and still survive.

Clark Hunt is a Billionaire.

He owns the Kansas City Chiefs.


They'd be fine. This parsimoniousness is based on a belief system that sports teams once they get to a certain level do not require investment, not on the reality of how to grow a game.

[ensco]

The argument that "we can afford the DPs, so no biggie" is upside down.

TFC have the revenues either way, they always have, in fact it was bigger 2007-2011, when they really did mostly sell out.

The question is: which DPs can increase revenues?

In our case, it's only Gio. At NYCFC, it's all three.

[Pint]

Once DC gets into a real stadium they should be in a much better spot. The same can be said about NE but less certain that their owner would ever splash cash.

[OgtheDim]

The argument that "we can afford the DPs, so no biggie" is upside down.

TFC have the revenues either way, they always have, in fact it was bigger 2007-2011, when they really did mostly sell out.

The question is: which DPs can increase revenues?

In our case, it's only Gio. At NYCFC, it's all three.

Lampard is about a 4 game "not in form" run from wearing out his welcome. And Pirlo is only now still liked by Italian New Yorkers. If they don't right that ship by June of next season, those 2 DP's ain't worth the money.

[ag futbol]

The argument that "we can afford the DPs, so no biggie" is upside down.

TFC have the revenues either way, they always have, in fact it was bigger 2007-2011, when they really did mostly sell out.

The question is: which DPs can increase revenues?

In our case, it's only Gio. At NYCFC, it's all three.
Explicitly to TFC gate sure, but I believe someone brought up that TFC is now one of the best road draws in the league, largely as a result of our USMNT players.

Anyway, I agree with Og these guys cry poor more than they should be. They basically leach off the rest of the ownership groups which actually invest money to make this league better. They feel entitled because they kept MLS a float back when the choice was ante up or fold the league. Thanks for that and all, but this sort of moral relativism has no place in business strategy.

[Super]

This is why I hate parity. Small market teams with little interest in the community is given the same means to succeed as big powerhouse clubs with lots of followers. It's simply a dumb way to run any sport. Imagine the 100 meter if you handicapped the runners based on speed, so you'd end up with all 10 finishing pretty much at the same time. Wow, what drama. Anyone can win it! /Sarcasm.

You don't get the big clubs with the best players that play the best football. You get average performances across the board. I know some people argue that it's much more fun because everyone can win it, but if that's the case then why are the vast majority of people still watching the big leagues? Because they provide the most drama. In comparison to the top leagues in Europe there is really very little drama here. Sure, you have surprise results, but who can really say one team beating another team in the MLS is really as much of a surprise compared to a mid-ranking team beating a top-ranking team in Europe - which does happen. Here club success is mainly about the competence of the manager. In Europe you add many other factors, such as fan support, financial support, etc.

If football has genuinely arrived in North America then we should do away with the cap. If it hasn't, then we shouldn't. But then we can't really call ourselves a top 25 league in the world - if we're kept alive by these means. Healthy markets will support their clubs. And right now we're ballooning in size, adding teams every year. I'd rather have a 20 team league with 5-10 top clubs (the list of teams able to spend BIG money in this league is much bigger vs. Prem, Italy, Spain, etc. in percentage of their top leagues) than 40 teams (we're heading in that direction) where half the markets are shit and dragging down the other half.

Fans who support parity keep us below the top 25 leagues in the world. Just think about it. Fans do have a say if we can all just come together, you know.

Getting rid of parity would improve the game in the MLS like no other move could. We'd instantly become a top 10 league in the world.

[pdubs]

They need to make a balanced schedule if they want more parity. But with the travel can't see that happening.

[vortexdr]

MLS will always be a joke until the salary cap goes way up and they can sign players especially defenders that aren't total untalented scrubs. Seriously at times you watch better defending watching international woman's football and that is already atrocious.

They would also have to up the amount of international spots as no one really wants to see a team made up of 50% north americans...

[Fort York Redcoat]

MLS will always be a joke until the salary cap goes way up and they can sign players especially defenders that aren't total untalented scrubs. Seriously at times you watch better defending watching international woman's football and that is already atrocious.

They would also have to up the amount of international spots as no one really wants to see a team made up of 50% north americans...

Well you're wrong about that. Not only do I want to see NA players improve and play with the best but to lump Mexico in with NA as a comparable league standard is the joke.

[Blizzard]

MLS will always be a joke until the salary cap goes way up and they can sign players especially defenders that aren't total untalented scrubs. Seriously at times you watch better defending watching international woman's football and that is already atrocious.

They would also have to up the amount of international spots as no one really wants to see a team made up of 50% north americans...

You've got to be kidding! :facepalm:

Granted, I don't want them playing in the league until they're ready but if you give a damn about Canada, you'd do better wanting to see a team of 50% North Americans. Canada made it to the 86 World Cup precisely because the Whitecaps, Manic and Blizzard were playing a lot of homegrown players ... at times more than 50%! They were required to play three but almost always played more .... and as Canadians were not imports in the USA, a lot were playing on US teams too!

I dream of the day when TFC and the Impact are starting more than one Canadian per game and when the Whitecaps will play at least one Canadian in a big play-off match!

B

[Blizzard]

Well you're wrong about that. Not only do I want to see NA players improve and play with the best but to lump Mexico in with NA as a comparable league standard is the joke.

Very good point!

[Oldtimer]

That's the high end of the scale... Those teams won't fold.
Its the DC's and Dallas' of the league that have 10,000 attendance and don't generate much revenue.
Cant see a team like DC, selling 2 dollar beers, being able to pay 7m for the roster alone (considering other costs of running a team in the MLS are about 6miliion per year - last I heard) and still survive.

Actually, $30 million is the low end of the scale (the top end is $40 million). Revenue sharing evens out a lot of things between the teams.

[Pint]

MLS will always be a joke until the salary cap goes way up and they can sign players especially defenders that aren't total untalented scrubs. Seriously at times you watch better defending watching international woman's football and that is already atrocious.

They would also have to up the amount of international spots as no one really wants to see a team made up of 50% north americans...

I think most want to see a team made up of mostly NA players, especially Canadians. If not then what is the point in having a domestic league? you may as well just spend your money going to the ICC games if all you want to see is random euro players.

More osorios/Morgans/Henry's etc and less Moore, kantari, jacksons.

[Fort York Redcoat]

I think most want to see a team made up of mostly NA players, especially Canadians. If not then what is the point in having a domestic league? you may as well just spend your money going to the ICC games if all you want to see is random euro players.

More osorios/Morgans/Henry's etc and less Moore, kantari, jacksons.

Was that a cricket reference?

http://www.project-reason.org/?ACT=28&fid=7025&aid=4674_Roxi1EmvjHxT8wAAA0wd&board_id=1

[Pint]

Was that a cricket reference?

http://www.project-reason.org/?ACT=28&fid=7025&aid=4674_Roxi1EmvjHxT8wAAA0wd&board_id=1

No it was a shameful "International Champions Cup" reference.... ill give myself a timeout for bringing up that sham of a competition. :svengo:

[BuSaPuNk]

I think most want to see a team made up of mostly NA players, especially Canadians. If not then what is the point in having a domestic league? you may as well just spend your money going to the ICC games if all you want to see is random euro players.

More osorios/Morgans/Henry's etc and less Moore, kantari, jacksons.

Id agree with you that most want to see that.

I however dont care if we have a team from Timbuktu as long as we win the leauge. Developing players for both the CMNT and USMNT isn't the job of the clubs its the jobs of the federations. Less emphasis on a players passport and more on there actual ability is what I want to see.

[Pint]

Id agree with you that most want to see that.

I however dont care if we have a team from Timbuktu as long as we win the leauge. Developing players for both the CMNT and USMNT isn't the job of the clubs its the jobs of the federations. Less emphasis on a players passport and more on there actual ability is what I want to see.

Is it TFC's primary job to develop CMNT players? No its it TFC primary job to win the league. But being 1 of 5 professional teams in the country you do have some responsibility to develop local talent both for sustainability within a cap league as well as for the national federation.

I don't want to see canadian players for the sake of them being canadian but i do want to see our club producing canadian players capable of earning and winning starting jobs both in MLS and abroad.

[Fort York Redcoat]

Its the pride of any team in any part of the world to have a local kid start or end his career there and, depending on the quality level of said team, having a career on one of best teams in the world in between.

[Super]

Its the pride of any team in any part of the world to have a local kid start or end his career there and, depending on the quality level of said team, having a career on one of best teams in the world in between.

Definitely true about DeRo. But that's about it. I'm all for developing Canadian talent, but they shouldn't be starting for TFC unless they've earned it based on skill level. I don't want us throwing away our chances at any success because we want to feed the national team. We should loan out players to NASL/USL unless they're good enough to start for TFC.

[C.Ronaldo]

Definitely true about DeRo. But that's about it. I'm all for developing Canadian talent, but they shouldn't be starting for TFC unless they've earned it based on skill level. I don't want us throwing away our chances at any success because we want to feed the national team. We should loan out players to NASL/USL unless they're good enough to start for TFC.
agreed, make TFC2 75% canadian if you want to develop talent, but when they get to TFC they better be good enough on their own without quotas

[Pint]

True but its about the opportunity being given. Last season I will still maintain that Q would have been about the same as our other keepers if given a shot. Babouli, manella, chapman all wouldn't be step downs from what was occasionally trotted out.

[C.Ronaldo]

True but its about the opportunity being given. Last season I will still maintain that Q would have been about the same as our other keepers if given a shot. Babouli, manella, chapman all wouldn't be step downs from what was occasionally trotted out.

so what do you think it is thats holding them back, I mean MLS isnt exactly the old boys board room

I maye agree with canadian quota only because MLS has their silly domestic rule

[Pint]

so what do you think it is thats holding them back, I mean MLS isnt exactly the old boys board room

I maye agree with canadian quota only because MLS has their silly domestic rule

We were in a battle all year to make the playoffs and using older mls vets is safer. Also at the point in the year where we may have gotten them some time they were all away at PanAm's

[Fort York Redcoat]

Definitely true about DeRo. But that's about it. I'm all for developing Canadian talent, but they shouldn't be starting for TFC unless they've earned it based on skill level. I don't want us throwing away our chances at any success because we want to feed the national team. We should loan out players to NASL/USL unless they're good enough to start for TFC.

Starting a career is not starting for the team.

I don't believe in quotas to re-enforce mediocrity but I believe most years we have serviceable Canadian talent that can get the opportunity to prove he's of the level we'd want to succeed. That's it. This is a club and there's a big world with plenty of different leveled talent. I agree that our USL team is a better place to be serious about starters.

[Fort York Redcoat]

True but its about the opportunity being given. Last season I will still maintain that Q would have been about the same as our other keepers if given a shot. Babouli, manella, chapman all wouldn't be step downs from what was occasionally trotted out.

Great examples.

It will be an eternal question between "how much time do we give the kids" to "we need solid (foreign) established (but largely unknown) talent".

Playing the hindsight game is no guarantee but as long as the club isn't entirely one away or another to the point of spiting themselves I'm ok with using both and every opportunity to find talent to improve.

[Pint]

Great examples.

It will be an eternal question between "how much time do we give the kids" to "we need solid (foreign) established (but largely unknown) talent".

Playing the hindsight game is no guarantee but as long as the club isn't entirely one away or another to the point of spiting themselves I'm ok with using both and every opportunity to find talent to improve.

Yep, how much worse could Thomas have been than Kantari? vs the benefit of him getting MLS time this past season.

[OgtheDim]

Yep, how much worse could Thomas have been than Kantari? vs the benefit of him getting MLS time this past season.

I like Thomas. He's not up there yet. Let's not rush the kids. Simonin is better, just keeps getting injured.

[Blizzard]

Is it TFC's primary job to develop CMNT players? No its it TFC primary job to win the league. But being 1 of 5 professional teams in the country you do have some responsibility to develop local talent both for sustainability within a cap league as well as for the national federation.

I don't want to see canadian players for the sake of them being canadian but i do want to see our club producing canadian players capable of earning and winning starting jobs both in MLS and abroad.

Well said!

[ensco]

Something that I suspect Manning will be pondering (hat tip to an old friend who posted this elsewhere)

http://www.soccermetrics.net/football-business-analytics/front-office-efficiency-football-business-analytics/mls-front-office-efficiency-2015-edition

[Cashcleaner]

MLS will always be a joke until the salary cap goes way up and they can sign players especially defenders that aren't total untalented scrubs. Seriously at times you watch better defending watching international woman's football and that is already atrocious.

Agreed that the cap needs to be raised substantially and the current DP and off-budget restrictions amended. Right now the cap is $3.49 million US but despite it being a somewhat grey line the league has drawn, it's still far too low to entice interest from top-quality players both home and abroad.

They would also have to up the amount of international spots as no one really wants to see a team made up of 50% north americans...[/QUOTE]

Disagree with that one. I'd say there are more fans than not who would love to see more domestic players in this league.

[vortexdr]

Umm the Country would have to invest significant money into young player development. As this stage the vast majority of Canadian youth would dream of being a hockey star rather than football....

Don't get me wrong if Canada would have the youth development of say Germany id also love to see more Canadians on a team. But until then the country simply isn't producing enough halfway decent players to warrant the hard on for so many domestic players.

[pdubs]

Yep. Ala Germany in the late 1990s

http://www2.tsn.ca/soccer/story/?id=422202

[Fort York Redcoat]

Yep. Ala Germany in the late 1990s

http://www2.tsn.ca/soccer/story/?id=422202

From the article of 2 years ago.


We cannot carbon copy the German development structure in Canada, for a multitude of reasons.

And if you don't see any changes that have happened since then it would be a fun idea to compare a Canadian kids opportunities now vs then. The change is there but if some of you are waiting for German level change I suppose you'll know it when we get there. I, for one, will appreciate the steps in the way.

[Fort York Redcoat]

Umm the Country would have to invest significant money into young player development. As this stage the vast majority of Canadian youth would dream of being a hockey star rather than football....

Don't get me wrong if Canada would have the youth development of say Germany id also love to see more Canadians on a team. But until then the country simply isn't producing enough halfway decent players to warrant the hard on for so many domestic players.

Just the last 2 league rookies of the year but go ahead and save hard on talk for less shots at roster spots for Canadian talent coming up through the system...

[pdubs]

From the article of 2 years ago.



And if you don't see any changes that have happened since then it would be a fun idea to compare a Canadian kids opportunities now vs then. The change is there but if some of you are waiting for German level change I suppose you'll know it when we get there. I, for one, will appreciate the steps in the way.

I agree we cannot copy the Germans. Our whole system is a mess tho.

More recent article by DeVos:
http://www.tsn.ca/apathy-toward-canadian-soccer-is-why-nothing-is-going-to-change-1.189326

"For decades, the CSA has taken a "hands off" approach to youth player development. There are many reasons for this, not least of which is our nationwide governance structure – an upside down mess that puts all of the power in the hands of the people at the bottom, rather than in the hands of those at the top. The byproduct of this governance structure is that is it virtually impossible for the CSA to mandate change – in large part because a significant portion of the CSA's operating budget comes from player registration dollars (which pass through the hands of the provinces on their way to the CSA).

Because of this, the tail wags the dog when it comes to player development. The provinces, rather than the CSA, hold all the power. The provinces do what their districts want them to do; the districts do what their clubs want them to do; and the clubs do what their customers want them to do – which is rarely what is in the best interests of player development."


Until the CSA can wrap both of its hands around grassroots soccer and completely overhaul our player development system – and that incorporates a wide range of topics, from coach education to training curriculum to competition structures - nothing will change. We will continue to struggle at the international level, we will continue to produce a fraction of the players that a nation with our resources should produce, and we will continue to hang our heads in shame when we tell people we are involved in soccer in Canada."

[Fort York Redcoat]

And I agree it can be improved upon by a large margin but to disregard changes made or worse still, disregarding the entire program until its equal to Germany or hockey in this country isn't taking much of an interest at all. Comparisons without the context you give above come off as naive.

[pdubs]

Doesn't have to be equal. Needs to be an example which we can build upon. I am just highly dubious of this current CSA governing body.

I am not being naive. Just do not want to get into massive dialog about our wonderful CSA governing body. Off topic anyway.

For anyone interested (most of you have probably read it) this is the CSA plan.
http://www.canadasoccer.com/files/CanadaSoccer_StrategicPlan2014_2018_EN.pdf

Call me naive but comparing ourselves to Germany or Belgium (1/3 of our population) has merits. Have we and are we doing enough? Do we have the will? It is out of our hands anyway, the 2014-2018 "Leading a Soccer Nation" is underway... peace.

[Richard]

I think a better comparison would be Sweeden or Russia, look at how many hockey players they have produced but also have an excellent football program all things considered.

[ag futbol]

Call me crazy, but screw fixing the entire country's soccer structure. You'll be fighting a million needless battles and the association doesn't have the resources to take everyone on and win.

The GTA and surrounding area has enough population base to provide an entire national team of high quality players IF it was run properly. Just focus on fixing that - the others will feel pressure to follow when they realize they are falling behind.

[Fort York Redcoat]

And I agree it can be improved upon by a large margin but to disregard changes made or worse still, disregarding the entire program until its equal to Germany or hockey in this country isn't taking much of an interest at all. Comparisons without the context you give above come off as naive.


Doesn't have to be equal. Needs to be an example which we can build upon. I am just highly dubious of this current CSA governing body.

I am not being naive. Just do not want to get into massive dialog about our wonderful CSA governing body. Off topic anyway.

For anyone interested (most of you have probably read it) this is the CSA plan.
http://www.canadasoccer.com/files/CanadaSoccer_StrategicPlan2014_2018_EN.pdf

Call me naive but comparing ourselves to Germany or Belgium (1/3 of our population) has merits. Have we and are we doing enough? Do we have the will? It is out of our hands anyway, the 2014-2018 "Leading a Soccer Nation" is underway... peace.

Read the bolded.

I'm agreeing that a model is useful. I am crediting you for providing context. I am not calling you naive. We could always do more. It's not in our hands alone but more attention on it helps those move towards accountability.

Thank you for your input.

Please consider that while Germany in the comparison provided was incredibly successful I'm sure there are examples you could provide where a German player was on the bubble to make the squad or start and was chosen over another of equal quality.

I think people use this preference as a crutch to claim that its blind patriotism when it should always be a measured decision on a player by player basis.

The weakness in the comparison of our country to Germany is the yawning gap of average level between the two. We should be aiming for Canadians to get shots at the first team (but never in spite of better value) while elsewhere they look at how many start on the pitch.

Just some perspective.

[Fort York Redcoat]

Call me crazy, but screw fixing the entire country's soccer structure. You'll be fighting a million needless battles and the association doesn't have the resources to take everyone on and win.

The GTA and surrounding area has enough population base to provide an entire national team of high quality players IF it was run properly. Just focus on fixing that - the others will feel pressure to follow when they realize they are falling behind.

You're absolutely right. Toronto FC is in the business of winning. It's not their priority to drag the Country's talent to a better level but it should be a symptom or reaction of them making Toronto home. Them making their Academy as strong as possible and providing a route to the first team now through the toonies will help Canadians achieve but more likely kids more local.

We got to this derail from an attitude that it doesn't matter who we field on the team or where they are from. It's a credo that bears with it ignorance of the fact we have a priority to look locally and use the talent around us. Without that caveat that we get scooped by other teams in the league and the country.

[ag futbol]

^ One of the major lessons from the old NASL was people needed more local players to relate to the team.

Without a strong local pipeline the growth of the game in North America has a ceiling.

[Oldtimer]

^ One of the major lessons from the old NASL was people needed more local players to relate to the team.

Without a strong local pipeline the growth of the game in North America has a ceiling.

That's true. While we like to see great players, it's meant something to have Ashtone Morgan on the team.

[Pint]

MLS needs local talent and here is why.

MLS needs to produce local talent to grow its consumer base, when a national team does well (USMNT for example) it grows demand for the domestic soccer consumption.

The biggest thing TFC could ever do to grow the interest in the team is produce local talent that takes our national team to the next level. I have no doubt that if a CMNT made the world cup with a prime age osorio starting or contributing that TFC could sell 40,000 tickets a game.

[pdubs]

Read the bolded.

I'm agreeing that a model is useful. I am crediting you for providing context. I am not calling you naive. We could always do more. It's not in our hands alone but more attention on it helps those move towards accountability.

Thank you for your input.

Please consider that while Germany in the comparison provided was incredibly successful I'm sure there are examples you could provide where a German player was on the bubble to make the squad or start and was chosen over another of equal quality.

I think people use this preference as a crutch to claim that its blind patriotism when it should always be a measured decision on a player by player basis.

The weakness in the comparison of our country to Germany is the yawning gap of average level between the two. We should be aiming for Canadians to get shots at the first team (but never in spite of better value) while elsewhere they look at how many start on the pitch.

Just some perspective.

Ah sorry misread what you were saying!

[KGH]

MLS needs local talent and here is why.

MLS needs to produce local talent to grow its consumer base, when a national team does well (USMNT for example) it grows demand for the domestic soccer consumption.

The biggest thing TFC could ever do to grow the interest in the team is produce local talent that takes our national team to the next level. I have no doubt that if a CMNT made the world cup with a prime age osorio starting or contributing that TFC could sell 40,000 tickets a game.

Respectfully disagree.

I think only the hardcore supporters (10,000ish) care about local talent. The rest of the herd to fill the other 30,000 seats only care about supporting a winning team. That's the Toronto fan base. Fill the entire team with SA no-names that win the league and the fans will come.

[Oldtimer]

Respectfully disagree.

I think only the hardcore supporters (10,000ish) care about local talent. The rest of the herd to fill the other 30,000 seats only care about supporting a winning team. That's the Toronto fan base. Fill the entire team with SA no-names that win the league and the fans will come.

Take away the 10,000 and there is no atmosphere. That actually matters as well to the average ticket buyer, so much so that they successfully sold a losing team for 3 years based on that.

[Pint]

Respectfully disagree.

I think only the hardcore supporters (10,000ish) care about local talent. The rest of the herd to fill the other 30,000 seats only care about supporting a winning team. That's the Toronto fan base. Fill the entire team with SA no-names that win the league and the fans will come.

Winning would fill the stadium but it would not even come close to maximizing the demand for the sport. Winning brings in the people who currently are on the fence about the team or sport but it does not create a market.

A winning team is like putting a soda on sale, you will have more people buying your product and you may in fact actually convert some people into loyal customers if your sale is good enough or long enough. But during the process but you are not expanding your market base you are only selling more to people that already acknowledged your product.

To actually expand your market you need to get new eyes on what you are selling and have them become interested, this is where a national team doing well comes in. We all know people who only watch soccer every 4 years and for 2 or 3 weeks they are captivated by the game, now if some of those players play for the local team they could become tempted to start following that local team.

What you are saying is correct, winning will fill 30,000 seats but IMO what the people at the top of this organization need to worry about isn't filling the 30,000 seats but building a larger market for their product moving forward.

[Fort York Redcoat]

MLS needs local talent and here is why.

MLS needs to produce local talent to grow its consumer base, when a national team does well (USMNT for example) it grows demand for the domestic soccer consumption.

The biggest thing TFC could ever do to grow the interest in the team is produce local talent that takes our national team to the next level. I have no doubt that if a CMNT made the world cup with a prime age osorio starting or contributing that TFC could sell 40,000 tickets a game.

I agree that it would be the biggest thing for the game in Canada from a Toronto POV but for interest in the team...


Respectfully disagree.

I think only the hardcore supporters (10,000ish) care about local talent. The rest of the herd to fill the other 30,000 seats only care about supporting a winning team. That's the Toronto fan base. Fill the entire team with SA no-names that win the league and the fans will come.


...I think its worse than that when it comes to showing up for winners in Toronto.

The Golden Boot winner is here. Where were the bandwagoners? I mean the true sellout peeps throw around when they talk like this? Winning it all with no names wouldn't sellout till playoffs. Sure I don't have an example to reference yet but we sure as hell haven't seen true sellouts yet.

Toronto needs winning AND names to sellout.

[ag futbol]

Respectfully disagree.

I think only the hardcore supporters (10,000ish) care about local talent. The rest of the herd to fill the other 30,000 seats only care about supporting a winning team. That's the Toronto fan base. Fill the entire team with SA no-names that win the league and the fans will come.
From what I understand that's actually not true. A lot of what gets casual fans off the fence is a local connection - or at least that's the popular belief.

[ag futbol]

I agree that it would be the biggest thing for the game in Canada from a Toronto POV but for interest in the team...




...I think its worse than that when it comes to showing up for winners in Toronto.

The Golden Boot winner is here. Where were the bandwagoners? I mean the true sellout peeps throw around when they talk like this? Winning it all with no names wouldn't sellout till playoffs. Sure I don't have an example to reference yet but we sure as hell haven't seen true sellouts yet.

Toronto needs winning AND names to sellout.
Should acknowledge the damage the poor management of the past has done. If they had capitalized on the initial momentum the market would look a lot better than it has today.

They need to work hard to build up a lot of that lost goodwill with the fan base.

[ensco]

Bumping this thread to speculate on something interesting Kurt Larson said in the Vanney thread.

Per Larson yesterday: There's something being overlooked, however. Something that could be putting pressure on president Bill Manning. I'll have more on this during the summer, potentially.

My guess: TFC are bleeding dough and MLSE can't possibly want to subsidize this much longer. Manning wasn't hired to execute the Leiweke vision, he was hired to bring his own vision. There has been no bump in TV ratings and attendance is stabilized. TFC payroll is $20M+ while very successful teams are competing effectively with $4-5M payrolls. Manning owns the problem of how to get payroll back into the stratosphere. Selling Seba this summer, if he can be sold, seems obvious, to me. Maybe Bradley and Altidore too (they make no sense from a marketing POV here)

Also don't forget that Kreis is still out there. He wasn't the guy to carry out the year two of the Leiweke plan, but he sure as heck could be the guy to rebuild on a normalized budget.

[Ivy]

Bumping this thread to speculate on something interesting Kurt Larson said in the Vanney thread.

Per Larson yesterday: There's something being overlooked, however. Something that could be putting pressure on president Bill Manning. I'll have more on this during the summer, potentially.

My guess: TFC are bleeding dough and MLSE can't possibly want to subsidize this much longer. Manning wasn't hired to execute the Leiweke vision, he was hired to bring his own vision. There has been no bump in TV ratings and attendance is stabilized. TFC payroll is $20M+ while very successful teams are competing effectively with $4-5M payrolls. Manning owns the problem of how to get payroll back into the stratosphere. Selling Seba this summer, if he can be sold, seems obvious, to me. Maybe Bradley and Altidore too (they make no sense from a marketing POV here)

Also don't forget that Kreis is still out there. He wasn't the guy to carry out the year two of the Leiweke plan, but he sure as heck could be the guy to rebuild on a normalized budget.


I can agree on Bradley and Altidore; Seba, no way.

[ensco]

I can agree on Bradley and Altidore; Seba, no way.

Not sure they can be moved. We all know Seba can.

[Red4ever]

Theyll sell him after this season. No way they sell this summer

[Yohan]

Financial suicide to sell giovinco. How is tfc going to fill 30k stadium without giovinco?

[jloome]

From what I understand that's actually not true. A lot of what gets casual fans off the fence is a local connection - or at least that's the popular belief.

I believe it's a naive and out-of-date perspective.

[MartinUtd]

The club needs to admit it's taken half measures up until recently.

The shitty tin stadium, plastic pitch for 6(?) seasons, revolving door of D and F grade coaches, Tom Anselmi, not having a solid TV deal in place thus making it impossible to follow the team, putting literally any Canadian on the pitch in an effort to stoke patriotism, their silly seat relocation process, fucking around DeRo for the sake of a few hundred grand because they bought the farm with De Guzman, drafting like shit then trading away any decent young commodities for short term gain, doubling season ticket prices in the the first 5 seasons despite the product getting worse relative to the rest of the league and most recently sharing with the Argo's.

Take your lumps and stop trying to find short cuts, MLSE.

[Auzzy]

Well, if what they really want to do is completely nuke the franchise, they'll sell Giovinco.

[mistercorporate]

If they sell Giovinco they may as well quit the soccer business. I doubt they're that stupid.

[Pint]

What you are speculating is 100% nonsense, not my opinion but fact. TFC for better or worse will always be on the higher end of DP spending.

Move on to next speculation.

[tiberius]

...Selling Seba this summer, if he can be sold, seems obvious, to me.


Selling Seba effectively ends the franchise - MLSE has spent a fortune on players and the stadium. To trade the player who has been in on every last goal this season? They would have to be beyond fuckin nuts. 99% of the time you speak complete reason ensco - this idea tho, is just fantasy. Even Mo, Cochrane, Anselmi or Mariner could not be that stupid... have you been smokin the wacky tabaccy again?

[Oldtimer]

I don't see them selling Giovinco.

[TFC/Everton]

This isn't a question of selling Giovinco. MLSE would sooner move Jozy or Michael, full stop.

Bottom line: this club needs big gates and big results this year.

Three straight years we've had the highest payroll in MLS. If we don't win this year, time to rebuild.

But on the bright side, this is our bloody year!!!

[ensco]

Selling Seba effectively ends the franchise - MLSE has spent a fortune on players and the stadium. To trade the player who has been in on every last goal this season? They would have to be beyond fuckin nuts. 99% of the time you speak complete reason ensco - this idea tho, is just fantasy. Even Mo, Cochrane, Anselmi or Mariner could not be that stupid... have you been smokin the wacky tabaccy again?

Thanks for your kind words, 99%, wow, you need to talk to my wife!

If the suits want TFC to stop bleeding money, what would you do?

I bet someone talks about NYRB and Dallas at every board meeting.

[mistercorporate]

Thanks for your kind words, 99%, wow, you need to talk to my wife!

If the suits want TFC to stop bleeding money, what would you do?

I bet someone talks about NYRB and Dallas at every board meeting.

What makes you so sure they're bleeding money? They say they're not, where's your evidence?

[ensco]

^Simple math. It's been done many times on here, not going to find it. If you don't believe me so be it.

it is a certainty that others are doing what we do by spending $5M (or less) on players, not $20M

[molenshtain]

^Simple math. It's been done many times on here, not going to find it. If you don't believe me so be it.

it is a certainty that others are doing what we do by spending $5M (or less) on players, not $20M

For short period of time, sure. But over the long haul, the most successful team in MLS over the last decade has been it's highest spender.

[Detroit_TFC]

I doubt that Seba plans on finishing his career at TFC but currently it doesn't appear he's in a hurry to go. If MLSE is eager to cash in on him in the transfer market, well, it's possible I guess.

Seems odd that there would be a sudden focus on belt-tightening from the MLS board, is TFC really losing that much money? TFC is still just a small part of MLSE's overall costs.

[reggie]

this has become the TFC is going fold again thread,if some club in China offers 30- 40 mil for SEBA you have to think about it.great players come and go.

[OgtheDim]

I think Rogers learned through the Blue Jays that you don't get bodies and eyeballs in this city without spending money. If they were spending like they were last March, nobody would be talking about them.

BTW Blue Jays attendance tonight was 23 000 - not bad for a Tuesday going up against a Raptor playoff game. Last year, it would have been 12K.

The pressure on Manning to succeed is there because of the spending. But there is little evidence that the spending involved is seen to be too much. Has anybody in management actually hinted at that? No. It keeps being talked about by people because, well that's how they think MLSE would think. But, is it? Do we have any reason to think that beancounters are running MLSE again?

"while very successful teams are competing effectively with $4-5M payrolls" Actually, that approach is being abandoned by teams slowly but surely. The Rapids got Jones and will get Howard. The Crew spent money on Kamara. Portland spent money this offseason. These things tend to go in 6 month cycles. Right now the flavour of the week is LAG & TFC. If that was to be the 2 teams at the MLS Cup Final, you can bet that others would feel the need to spend money.

[ensco]

For short period of time, sure. But over the long haul, the most successful team in MLS over the last decade has been it's highest spender.

That is a fair point.

Manning was hired by, and answers to, suits with a significant history of cheaping out on talent (calling Beach Red).

The Galaxy and Sounders are owned by a guy or guys, not a corporation with hundreds of millions of debt on it.

[ensco]

If it isn't obvious, I'm just taking a wild ass guess here. Anyone got another idea as to what Larson is talking about?

[notthesun]

I seem to recall a bunch of predictions that Bradley (especially) and Altidore would be traded to NYCFC or another American team when they were signed and I'm still waiting for those shoes to drop... I don't see us selling our biggest draw right after expanding the stadium. Giovinco will leave when he wants to leave.

[OgtheDim]

If it isn't obvious, I'm just taking a wild ass guess here. Anyone got another idea as to what Larson is talking about?


IIRC, Bradley's contract is 3 years - not sure if there is an option. This is likely what Larson is talking about. (I don't see Larson as really thinking too much about MLSE board decisions)


This sort of ties into what you are saying - TFC has to figure out what it wants to be long term. I think that discussion will have more to do with the vision that Manning has and whether Bradley fits into that and surfing that commitment or the acquiring of another DP type player through the MLSE board.


i.e. Is the long term vision of TFC as set out by Manning best served by Bradley or by another asset.

[Beach_Red]

That is a fair point.

Manning was hired by, and answers to, suits with a significant history of cheaping out on talent (calling Beach Red).

The Galaxy and Sounders are owned by a guy or guys, not a corporation with hundreds of millions of debt on it.

There is no example in the broadcasting divisions of Bell or Rogers of either of them spending money to retain talent. They never think, "If this show is a huge hit we'll make a lot more money," they always think, "What's the cheapest we can make it for and not lose any money?"

[mistercorporate]

I don't see him leaving to be honest. He's almost 30. Once he hits 31 he won't be making the bucks he makes here in Europe. Why would he move to China? He's staying till he stops performing.

[ensco]

I seem to recall a bunch of predictions that Bradley (especially) and Altidore would be traded to NYCFC or another American team when they were signed and I'm still waiting for those shoes to drop... I don't see us selling our biggest draw right after expanding the stadium. Giovinco will leave when he wants to leave.

I definitely thought/think that re Bradley, but he hasn't played well enough. we'll see.

The stadium wasn't expanded for TFC.

[bgnewf]

$20 million in payroll for MLSE is chump change. they are paying Nazim Kadri $27 million alone starting next season in his new contract for chrissake. Truly believe that TFC from a MLSE corporate perspective is looked at as a 'long play'. The Leafs are a 'mature' product with not much room for growth. The Raps are growing but they will probably need a championship to get to the next level. Remember the majority owners of MLSE, Rogers & Bell, are publicly traded entities who need to manage to the next quarter (andmanage to the stock price) but who also need to show analysts and investors that there is a plan for long term growth. TFC, and for that matter soccer, is a big part of that. Don't really believe that Manning was brought in to turn TFC into some small market club. TFC is big potatoes in MLS, but a relatively small expenditure for MLSE.

[Onyx]

What makes you so sure they're bleeding money? They say they're not, where's your evidence?

simple math.
added US$19m in salary and with the fall in C$ it is now costing them C$25M.
They are bleeding red ink



in C$000s

2013

2016

change











Gate

16000

16000

0


Suites

2000

3200

1200


Sponsorship

10000

6000

-4000


TV/SUM

1000

5700

4700


Concessions/Gameday

6000

6000

0




















Player salaries

-4000

-29000

-25000


Operations/academy expenses
-18000

-18000

0


Adminstration costs

-6000

-6000

0


Gamday expenses

-4000

-4000

0











Profit / Loss

3000

-20100

-23100

[Yohan]

For short period of time, sure. But over the long haul, the most successful team in MLS over the last decade has been it's highest spender.

Eh. Teams have won MLS cups and supporter's shield without DPS or just low priced DPS.

LA's success doesn't indicate that high priced DPS are the way to consistent success

[notthesun]

I definitely thought/think that re Bradley, but he hasn't played well enough. we'll see.

The stadium wasn't expanded for TFC.

His play has nothing to do with it. Moving him was never the plan. If anything, it's reasonable to assume Bradley specifically agreed to come to TFC because playing in Canada means less spotlight and pressure on him.

[Onyx]

Not sure they can be moved. We all know Seba can.

Bradley and Jozy are unsellable on transfer market based on their contracts. Would have to go to another MLS team. You might get something for them

They wouldn't sell Seba unless MLSE was in need of cash, but based on the all the $ they make of the Leafs thanks to the NHL salary cap, i doubt that is the case.

[Beach_Red]

$20 million in payroll for MLSE is chump change. they are paying Nazim Kadri $27 million alone starting next season in his new contract for chrissake. Truly believe that TFC from a MLSE corporate perspective is looked at as a 'long play'. The Leafs are a 'mature' product with not much room for growth. The Raps are growing but they will probably need a championship to get to the next level. Remember the majority owners of MLSE, Rogers & Bell, are publicly traded entities who need to manage to the next quarter (andmanage to the stock price) but who also need to show analysts and investors that there is a plan for long term growth. TFC, and for that matter soccer, is a big part of that. Don't really believe that Manning was brought in to turn TFC into some small market club. TFC is big potatoes in MLS, but a relatively small expenditure for MLSE.

Sure, and making TV shows for CTV is chump change for Bell, an entire season of "Motive" is less than a couple of Maple Leafs salaries but that's not the issue. They still never spend as much as a US show spends because the market is too small to make it profitable.

Sure, there must be a long term plan for long term growth for TFC. Do you think it's hitting the markers so far?

[Onyx]

$20 million in payroll for MLSE is chump change. they are paying Nazim Kadri $27 million alone starting next season in his new contract for chrissake. Truly believe that TFC from a MLSE corporate perspective is looked at as a 'long play'. The Leafs are a 'mature' product with not much room for growth. The Raps are growing but they will probably need a championship to get to the next level. Remember the majority owners of MLSE, Rogers & Bell, are publicly traded entities who need to manage to the next quarter (andmanage to the stock price) but who also need to show analysts and investors that there is a plan for long term growth. TFC, and for that matter soccer, is a big part of that. Don't really believe that Manning was brought in to turn TFC into some small market club. TFC is big potatoes in MLS, but a relatively small expenditure for MLSE.

MLSE is not a wholly-owned entity by either bell or Rogers, as such the profitability of MLSE goes into other income/loss not EBITDA. This means both companies are not as concerned about profitability at MLSE as there regular 100% owned businesses where every cent is important.

There is a nhl salary cap, the leafs spend basically the same on salaries whether they signed Kadri or not. Has no impact on the business. The Leafs are the the cash cow that pays for everyone at MLSE - BMO Field, seba, bradley, jozy, everything

[portu]

Bradley and Jozy are unsellable on transfer market based on their contracts. Would have to go to another MLS team. You might get something for them

They wouldn't sell Seba unless MLSE was in need of cash, but based on the all the $ they make of the Leafs thanks to the NHL salary cap, i doubt that is the case.
The size of their current contracts have nothing to do with whether or not they're sellable, the moment a transfer fee is agreed then a new contract is negotiated, their contracts factor in only really if the difference in contract sizes between us and the new club is so stark that they end up saying "it's not worth the pay-cut".

Personally, I think they're both sellable but if we did they would be sold for so cheap that we would probably get more out of it by trading them within the league.

[Ivy]

simple math.
added US$19m in salary and with the fall in C$ it is now costing them C$25M.
They are bleeding red ink



in C$000s

2013

2016

change











Gate

16000

16000

0


Suites

2000

3200

1200


Sponsorship

10000

6000

-4000


TV/SUM

1000

5700

4700


Concessions/Gameday

6000

6000

0




















Player salaries

-4000

-29000

-25000


Operations/academy expenses
-18000

-18000

0


Adminstration costs

-6000

-6000

0


Gamday expenses

-4000

-4000

0











Profit / Loss

3000

-20100

-23100












Where are you getting these numbers from?

From first glance, I can see a couple of numbers that I want to question.
1. Sponsorship money - there was a sportsnet (?) article that said TFC sponsorship money is alittle less than 20m.
2. Attendance jumped by about 8-10k from 2013 to 2015. You indicated no change. Those numbers would increase both gate revenue, as well as concessions.

[OgtheDim]

Yeah each time that chart is put out, the same questions come back and we all go :noidea:

[ensco]

Just to spare everybody the same discussion, you can re-read all of us hashing through the detail about the same debate about TFC numbers starting here (continue down for about 20 posts).

http://forums.redpatchboys.ca/showthread.php?37158-Argos-to-BMO-decision-Wednesday-May-20th&p=1780914&viewfull=1#post1780914

Teams exaggerate their numbers, they all do it, although Leiweke probably belongs in a special category for his public statements on sponsorship .... I think Onyx's numbers are not that far off. I think we have so much scar tissue from the pre-Leiweke era, and therefore see it as a bigger abyss than it was from a marketing/financial POV - they had Frings, Koevermans, mostly similar attendance, and the 2012 CL run is probably the biggest success we ever had.

All this is a bit beside the point. TFC are spending, and therefore not earning, or offsetting losses, $10M+ more than Vancouver. That is the comparable for TFC ownership, who are famously cheap in these matters. I don't buy the arguments that this ownership is committed to being a big dog in MLS, I see no evidence of that in their other media businesses.

Who is kidding who? They'll support it to the level ratings pay for it, that's 100% how they think, and TFC's TV ratings are beyond garbage, and not moving despite the $10M+/year additional spend. Actually I'm not even sure about whether even that matters, given the way Rogers has cheaped out on hockey production and is in the process of wrecking a billion dollar ratings juggernaut. And anyone who thinks the Jays prove anything differently is not looking at the facts - we rank 13th in MLB payroll, despite there having all of a 35M person TV market that has proven it can drive enormous ratings, in a way that TFC/MLS never has, and has potential that is 10x that of TFC.
http://www.spotrac.com/mlb/payroll/

Manning didn't build LA or Seattle, he built a money ball team.

I think this is all staring us in the face, whether we like it or not.

[portu]

Just to spare everybody the same discussion, you can re-read all of us hashing through the detail about the same debate about TFC numbers starting here (continue down for about 20 posts).

http://forums.redpatchboys.ca/showthread.php?37158-Argos-to-BMO-decision-Wednesday-May-20th&p=1780914&viewfull=1#post1780914

Teams exaggerate their numbers, they all do it, although Leiweke probably belongs in a special category for his public statements on sponsorship .... I think Onyx's numbers are not that far off. I think we have so much scar tissue from the pre-Leiweke era, and therefore see it as a bigger abyss than it was from a marketing/financial POV - they had Frings, Koevermans, mostly similar attendance, and the 2012 CL run is probably the biggest success we ever had.

All this is a bit beside the point. TFC are spending, and therefore not earning, or offsetting losses, $10M+ more than Vancouver. That is the comparable for TFC ownership, who are famously cheap in these matters. I don't buy the arguments that this ownership is committed to being a big dog in MLS, I see no evidence of that in their other media businesses. They'll support it to the level ratings pay for it, that's 100% how they think, and this team's TV ratings are not moving despite the $10M+/year additional spend.

Manning didn't build LA or Seattle, he built a money ball team.

I think this is all staring us in the face, whether we like it or not.
Yeah but where did the other two architects go? Kreis went to NYCFC and Lagerway went to Seattlge both of which are big spenders. I think Manning's move to us aligns with his cohort's in that each move represented a massive step up in financial wherewithal.

[molenshtain]

The size of their current contracts have nothing to do with whether or not they're sellable, the moment a transfer fee is agreed then a new contract is negotiated, their contracts factor in only really if the difference in contract sizes between us and the new club is so stark that they end up saying "it's not worth the pay-cut".

Personally, I think they're both sellable but if we did they would be sold for so cheap that we would probably get more out of it by trading them within the league.

The idea is that they're not going to leave for a pay cut, which they'd have to take if they went back to europe. Club can't force them to leave if they don't want to leave their contracts.

[Fort York Redcoat]

There is nothing simple with MLS math. Simple meaning transparent.

[Areathrasher]

My take on Larsons comments was that Vanneys contract expires end of season. Vanney will want an extension or talks to begin in the summer. Does Manning do a deal in the summer or let the season playout, hire Kreis (Kreis could come off the table in the summer? Atlanta have said they want to hire a coach soon) instead or is there pressure from board/sebas agent to get big name coach in.

Given it was in a Vanney related it thread, i've got to believe its Vanney related.

[Areathrasher]

IIRC, Bradley's contract is 3 years - not sure if there is an option. This is likely what Larson is talking about. (I don't see Larson as really thinking too much about MLSE board decisions)


This sort of ties into what you are saying - TFC has to figure out what it wants to be long term. I think that discussion will have more to do with the vision that Manning has and whether Bradley fits into that and surfing that commitment or the acquiring of another DP type player through the MLSE board.


i.e. Is the long term vision of TFC as set out by Manning best served by Bradley or by another asset.

Bradleys deal is six years. From Leiwekes mouthpiece when Bradley was signed...


Bradley gets an even bigger bump, a six-year, $36 million contract

[Biggy]

My take on Larsons comments was that Vanneys contract expires end of season. Vanney will want an extension or talks to begin in the summer. Does Manning do a deal in the summer or let the season playout, hire Kreis (Kreis could come off the table in the summer? Atlanta have said they want to hire a coach soon) instead or is there pressure from board/sebas agent to get big name coach in.

Given it was in a Vanney related it thread, i've got to believe its Vanney related.

I think Occam would agree.

[ensco]

There is nothing simple with MLS math. Simple meaning transparent.

It's only complicated because they want it to be complicated because it serves their purposes. Kind of like the boilerplate in cellphone contracts.

It's about counting actual bums in seats, TV revenues, sponsorships, jerseys. They do equalization but that's 90% of it.

[ag futbol]

Look, I'm not going to argue that our contracts make short term economic sense but fact remains years of mismanagement put this club heavily on the back foot. Mo, Anselmi, and Co. basically took a hot product and drove it into irrelevance.

This is about brand repair as much as anything. Maybe the good times won't last forever but they damn well better last at least a couple of years, otherwise TFC will become largely a dormant, sleepy franchise, unable to get any traction in Toronto's crowded sports market.

Maybe this is just Tim Leiweke talking, but the vision should be larger than the previously mentioned examples of FCD and RBNY. If that's the benchmark MLS should just say it's competing with Jr. A hockey and the national lacrosse league. It will never reach mainstream.

[ManUtd4ever]

I don't think many supporters would have an issue with a change in the philosophical approach to building a sustainable winner. There is no reason why we should be spending 2-3 times more than the majority of clubs in MLS just to be competitive. It's not sustainable, and will continue to be a financial anchor based on the revenue TFC can realistically generate.

Giovinco is an outlier, and must be retained at all costs because of his impact on the team's success. However, as much as I like Bradley and Altidore, there are comparable players in MLS earning a fraction of what they earn, and that's over 10 million in payroll right there. That's where I would start if I were Manning and I were under the gun from ownership.

[ensco]

....the vision should be larger than the previously mentioned examples of FCD and RBNY. If that's the benchmark MLS should just say it's competing with Jr. A hockey and the national lacrosse league. It will never reach mainstream.

Should it? If you owned it, and it was your dough, would you do that? Based on what evidence? NYRB spent up for years on Henry, Marquez, etc, what did it get them?

MLS/TFC are losing the battle. I can watch 10 great Euro games any weekend. I will watch Bayern-Athletico on a 60 inch set in HD this afternoon.

[BeachTory]

Team revenue was projected above $50m for 2015. http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/soccer/toronto-fcs-100-million-gamble-to-appease-long-suffering-fans/article16320629/

and attendance was higher than projection - no link sorry ( personal source )

MLSE doesnt think individual team cash flow, they think enterprise value and upside potential.

TFC are not bleeding cash. Unless you consider the SUM parallel business as not TFC (which technically is true).

if a presentation to a stakeholder like the city or a player union needs to get written to show there is no money, cherry pick what ever parts of the business you want to show.

[Pint]

Part of what was appealing to Manning coming to TFC was the resources at his disposal, those resources are not going to dry up.

If a 4th DP slot opens up expect another 2-10 million to be spent

[Detroit_TFC]

Team revenue was projected above $50m for 2015. http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/soccer/toronto-fcs-100-million-gamble-to-appease-long-suffering-fans/article16320629/

and attendance was higher than projection - no link sorry ( personal source )

MLSE doesnt think individual team cash flow, they think enterprise value and upside potential.

TFC are not bleeding cash. Unless you consider the SUM parallel business as not TFC (which technically is true).

if a presentation to a stakeholder like the city or a player union needs to get written to show there is no money, cherry pick what ever parts of the business you want to show.

MLS is all about that. Garber can say the league is losing millions at CBA time but meanwhile all kinds of rich people are waving $100M checks in the air to get in.

[Beach_Red]

Team revenue was projected above $50m for 2015. http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/soccer/toronto-fcs-100-million-gamble-to-appease-long-suffering-fans/article16320629/

and attendance was higher than projection - no link sorry ( personal source )

MLSE doesnt think individual team cash flow, they think enterprise value and upside potential.



Have you got a link for this? If it's true, why do they think so differently about this one part of their business as opposed to all the others?

[ensco]

Have you got a link for this? If it's true, why do they think so differently about this one part of their business as opposed to all the others?

This "enterprise value" thing was a Peddie special. Not sure we've seen it since. He talked about that all the time, he thought he deserved to get paid because he was "building enterprise value" (ie because the stock market was going up).

If Teachers had bought Rogers and Bell stock in 1998, instead of MLSE, and sold that stock when they sold MLSE, they'd have made 3-5x more than they did.

[jloome]

This "enterprise value" thing was a Peddie special. Not sure we've seen it since. He talked about that all the time, he thought he deserved to get paid because he was "building enterprise value" (ie because the stock market was going up).

If Teachers had bought Rogers and Bell stock in 1998, instead of MLSE, and sold that stock when they sold MLSE, they'd have made 3-5x more than they did.

Perhaps they'll sell a stake in the team; that would cover them both in terms of "enterprise value" (because the purchase price would be partly based on assessed market value, not franchise price) and lowering their immediate losses from the last three seasons.

[mistercorporate]

When the sheikhs started investing in FC Barcelona, they were bleeding money like no tomorrow. Right now, the investment has earned them back more than they put in, FC Barcelona is one heck of a profitable brand and team even with their high player salaries. This is a longterm play for MLSE, one day it will generate more cashflow than the Leafs. Book it.

[molenshtain]

When the sheikhs started investing in FC Barcelona, they were bleeding money like no tomorrow. Right now, the investment has earned them back more than they put in, FC Barcelona is one heck of a profitable brand and team even with their high player salaries. This is a longterm play for MLSE, one day it will generate more cashflow than the Leafs. Book it.


Barcelona is in massive debt and remain so even with the Sheiks. They bought the Barcelona the brand to ease the world into being okay with slave owners and human rights abusers having a World Cup. There's not much else to it. If spanish courts/banks ever enforced their rules in regards to the big clubs then Barca, Madrid and Atletico would be majorly fucked financially. None of those clubs are going to be in any sort of stable financial footing any time soon.

But I agree with your overall point on TFC re investment. It's a very long term one, and MLSE are okay with subsidizing us through the Leafs, Raptors and whatever any other ventures for the time being.

[Oldtimer]

Team revenue was projected above $50m for 2015. http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/soccer/toronto-fcs-100-million-gamble-to-appease-long-suffering-fans/article16320629/

and attendance was higher than projection - no link sorry ( personal source )

MLSE doesnt think individual team cash flow, they think enterprise value and upside potential.

TFC are not bleeding cash. Unless you consider the SUM parallel business as not TFC (which technically is true).

if a presentation to a stakeholder like the city or a player union needs to get written to show there is no money, cherry pick what ever parts of the business you want to show.

The SUM numbers that were posted are incorrect. Just the US revenue numbers alone are $90 million per year ($18 million per team), and that does not include lucrative deals like with Sky Sports. You also have to convert the SUM numbers to Canadian dollars (which is how MLSE accounts for it), which makes it $22.7 million in revenue, not including foreign broadcast deals. Not $5.7 million. That $17 million error reduces TFC's loss to $8 million, which is the spare change that MLSE loses under it's seat cushions.

In reality TFC is most likely profitable.

[jabbronies]

I would make sense to assume if a team comes along and offers TFC a large enough sum of cash - then Seba leaves for sure. Either cos the team is too big for him to turn down or MLSE are too $$$ hungry and just want a return on him while his value is still high.

Both of which I don't really see happening..well it can happen cos it's MLSE and they have proven to be daft at sports management...but I find it hard to believe they would do it.

He's "the only name" people speak about when TFC are mentioned.
A team led by Seba fills a 30K seat BMO field.
A team of only MLS players may not. It's a risky move to assume it would IMO

On Seba's side of things - where else in the world can he get the cash and the star treatment he gets in T.O?
And IF he makes the Euro squad this year, what else would he be missing by staying in NA? Champions league football sure - but he never really played it when he was in Europe.

If anyone goes - it's Jozy. At the moment, he's big $$$ for minimal return.
That 3rd DP should be a young kid that can grow with the team for 2-3 years and then sell for big $$$ after that.

[Areathrasher]

The SUM numbers that were posted are incorrect. Just the US revenue numbers alone are $90 million per year ($18 million per team), and that does not include lucrative deals like with Sky Sports. You also have to convert the SUM numbers to Canadian dollars (which is how MLSE accounts for it), which makes it $22.7 million in revenue, not including foreign broadcast deals. Not $5.7 million. That $17 million error reduces TFC's loss to $8 million, which is the spare change that MLSE loses under it's seat cushions.

In reality TFC is most likely profitable.

I'm presuming this is a typo?

Also there isn't really an accurate way to gauge how much MLS teams make out of SUM given the USSF get a cut, they have an equity company with a 20% stake in SUM and expansion diluting the shares.

[jabbronies]

If a bump in TV ratings is a thing to measure success of what Manning is doing - and I'm not sure if this was his doing but - I think moving all games to the 7pm/7:30 slot was a great move.

I've always said this needed to happen.

In the summer - people are out in the sun, enjoying the day outside.
When they get home, after dinner and are unwinding, they need something to watch.

Most TV shows go on Summer hiatus.
Most weekend Jay games are played during the day.
There are not many other sports to split the viewership.

TFC is the most likely thing to watch in the evening - as long as they get on the right channels though.

[ensco]

This idea of the inevitability of the long term growth of MLS is mystifying.

Japan and the J League had a big head start on us - a way better academy-type system (high school sports there are massive). They tried it, spent big on Brazilians for years, and have majorly pulled back.

This is our second try - the first was way more serious (Villa, Lampard and Gerrard pale in comparison tp the NASL players that came - I don't see Ronaldo or Messi coming over here, the way Beckenbauer, Cruyff, and Pele did. (Probably only Pirlo is big enough to compare to those guys).

China is now trying it for the second time. We'll see.

The reality is that there is Europe, then there is the big Latin American leagues, then there is everybody else, and nobody has figured out how to move up, in fifty years of trying.

[ensco]

Counting SUM profit/loss figures in MLS figures is like talking about Leaf numbers in reference to TFC. It makes zero sense.

They may be owned by the same entities, but they are different businesses.

[ensco]

If a bump in TV ratings is a thing to measure success of what Manning is doing - and I'm not sure if this was his doing but - I think moving all games to the 7pm/7:30 slot was a great move.

I've always said this needed to happen.

In the summer - people are out in the sun, enjoying the day outside.
When they get home, after dinner and are unwinding, they need something to watch.

Most TV shows go on Summer hiatus.
Most weekend Jay games are played during the day.
There are not many other sports to split the viewership.

TFC is the most likely thing to watch in the evening - as long as they get on the right channels though.

I wonder about this. You lose the families. They pay the freight.

[ag futbol]

Should it? If you owned it, and it was your dough, would you do that? Based on what evidence? NYRB spent up for years on Henry, Marquez, etc, what did it get them?

MLS/TFC are losing the battle. I can watch 10 great Euro games any weekend. I will watch Bayern-Athletico on a 60 inch set in HD this afternoon.
With my (and I suspect your) value-oriented approach? No, non-starter. But this isn't a value play, it's a growth property. You need someone who builds things and takes some chances. Basically you can tap into the increase in the popularity of the game here if you are willing to plug some cash into it up front. Cheering for things half way around the world has a limit.

I think this is an appropriate strategy for our market. RBNY has its own dynamic, I wouldn't use it as our bechmark.

I'll argue the market has developed a fair amount since the days of the NASL.

[Ben - D.O.W.]

This idea of the inevitability of the long term growth of MLS is mystifying.

Japan and the J League had a big head start on us - a way better academy-type system (high school sports there are massive). They tried it, spent big on Brazilians for years, and have majorly pulled back...China is now trying it for the second time. We'll see.

The reality is that there is Europe, then there is the big Latin American leagues, then there is everybody else, and nobody has figured out how to move up, in fifty years of trying.

Genuine question - are there other highly successful sports leagues in Japan / China? I know baseball is big in Japan, but anything else?

I think part of people's belief that MLS will inevitably be huge is - "well every other sport is the best in North America, soccer must eventually be to". And I don't necessarily agree with that but I can understand how people would fall into that trap.

[ensco]

Genuine question - are there other highly successful sports leagues in Japan / China? I know baseball is big in Japan, but anything else?

I think part of people's belief that MLS will inevitably be huge is - "well every other sport is the best in North America, soccer must eventually be to". And I don't necessarily agree with that but I can understand how people would fall into that trap.

Japan: Baseball is first, second, third and fourth. Next is high school baseball (their national championship is like World Juniors for us, only bigger). Sumo there is like Grey Cup here - nobody pays attention all year, but finals are big. So baseball there is like hockey in Canada.

Then it would be F1 and soccer, and maybe tennis and golf, which are both bigger there than here.

[ensco]

Perhaps they'll sell a stake in the team; that would cover them both in terms of "enterprise value" (because the purchase price would be partly based on assessed market value, not franchise price) and lowering their immediate losses from the last three seasons.

An interesting speculation. Especially if that buyer brought a soccer management capability to the table.

[Oldtimer]

I'm presuming this is a typo?

Also there isn't really an accurate way to gauge how much MLS teams make out of SUM given the USSF get a cut, they have an equity company with a 20% stake in SUM and expansion diluting the shares.

No it's not a typo. $90 million U.S. greenbacks.

Yes, 20% was sold to an equity company, but we don't know the terms of that deal, plus it's also offset by the foreign revenues which I haven't counted. It's quite realistic to count CAD$22+ million per team.

Read this article:

http://worldsoccertalk.com/2014/05/12/mls-to-announce-90-million-per-season-tv-deal-with-fox-espn-and-univision/

[Oldtimer]

Counting SUM profit/loss figures in MLS figures is like talking about Leaf numbers in reference to TFC. It makes zero sense.

They may be owned by the same entities, but they are different businesses.

You buy an MLS franchise, you get a share of SUM. It's not as separate as you are making out.

However, the fact that the SUM money vastly changes the cost/profit/loss dynamic goes against the "accepted narrative" of some that TFC will sell off it's star players and spend peanuts in the future.

That's what you want to believe? Carry on.

I personally think they are following the LA model, but only time will tell.

[Areathrasher]

No it's not a typo.

Read this article:

http://worldsoccertalk.com/2014/05/12/mls-to-announce-90-million-per-season-tv-deal-with-fox-espn-and-univision/

It wasn't in reference to the 90mil figure but the 18 million per team


$90 million per year ($18 million per team)

How was that worked out?

[ensco]

You buy an MLS franchise, you get a share of SUM. It's not as separate as you are making out.

However, the fact that the SUM money vastly changes the cost/profit/loss dynamic goes against the "accepted narrative" of some that TFC will sell off it's star players and spend peanuts in the future. Carry on.

The buying and selling of TV rights for games other than your own is 100% separate.

They should (and I am sure will) view those businesses as two separate entities as it relates to business decisions for TFC.

You want to co-mingle the Leafs TV deals with TFC, just because the buyer of MLSE got both, it's a free country.

[ag futbol]

You buy an MLS franchise, you get a share of SUM. It's not as separate as you are making out.

However, the fact that the SUM money vastly changes the cost/profit/loss dynamic goes against the "accepted narrative" of some that TFC will sell off it's star players and spend peanuts in the future.

That's what you want to believe? Carry on.

I personally think they are following the LA model, but only time will tell.
The point is business A and B are essentially unconnected. My ability to sell ice cream and used cars are separate. Someone might say "well you have to package both businesses together" and it is what it is. But I'm not going to prop up my ice cream operations using the used car bucks if the product can't eventually stand on its own merit. I think that's the point.

Personally I think the long run potential of this business justifies the investment. SUM provides a means of support; however, you can't justify investing more in MLS simply because of the flow of SUM money. MLS as a stand-alone needs to be worth the investment (which I think it is).

[OgtheDim]

I wonder about this. You lose the families. They pay the freight.

Are you saying families pay the freight on the TV viewership or at the gate? Cause TFC at the gate isn't family oriented much.

[ensco]

Are you saying families pay the freight on the TV viewership or at the gate? Cause TFC at the gate isn't family oriented much.

The consistent start is probably good for TV. But for the gate, night games are bad for families, and families dominate the stands, away from the south end

[OgtheDim]

The consistent start is probably good for TV. But for the gate, night games are bad for families, and families dominate the stands, away from the south end

Not sure of that - certainly not in 221 which is either couples, older or not, friends or the group tickets at the tops.

[Pint]

Sat night at 730 is bad for families? Since when do night games keep families away?

If your kid is under 5 or 6 than maybe i can see it being too late for them but after that allowing a kid to stay up on a sat night in the summer doesn't really appear to be a problem.

For the families this does affect it will suck but they should actually be able to hit more of their target demographic (18-35) with night games.

[Areathrasher]

The point is business A and B are essentially unconnected. My ability to sell ice cream and used cars are separate. Someone might say "well you have to package both businesses together" and it is what it is. But I'm not going to prop up my ice cream operations using the used car bucks if the product can't eventually stand on its own merit. I think that's the point.

Personally I think the long run potential of this business justifies the investment. SUM provides a means of support; however, you can't justify investing more in MLS simply because of the flow of SUM money. MLS as a stand-alone needs to be worth the investment (which I think it is).

When you say businesses A and B are unconnected, do you mean MLS and SUM? Because that's not really true is it?

[ensco]

Not sure of that - certainly not in 221 which is either couples, older or not, friends or the group tickets at the tops.

I wouldn't question your experience. I'll amend "south end" to "cheaper seats"

[ag futbol]

When you say businesses A and B are unconnected, do you mean MLS and SUM? Because that's not really true is it?
You can say there is some synergy there, but not a whole ton.

We break these two things apart, what are the ramifications (ignoring for a second SUM's cash flows indirectly supporting MLS)? SUM would be mostly unaffected and I'm sure MLS could find other means to market its product.

Long run you could say MLS success drives the other things SUM earns money on, but that is very loose synergy and difficult to quantify. I'd slap anyone who suggested that as an underlying investment thesis.

[Oldtimer]

It wasn't in reference to the 90mil figure but the 18 million per team



How was that worked out?

Good point. I guess it's my math that's messed up. :redface:

[jabbronies]

I wonder about this. You lose the families. They pay the freight.


Nah - The Leafs have thrived on 7-8pm games for years and it never affected families. If anything it's better for families.
Again, no outdoor commitments to worry about (pee wee baseball, soccer games, swimming, day camps etc).
It's a time of day when you'd expect most households to be bunkering down together somewhere - late dinner etc.

[Onyx]

The SUM numbers that were posted are incorrect. Just the US revenue numbers alone are $90 million per year ($18 million per team), and that does not include lucrative deals like with Sky Sports. You also have to convert the SUM numbers to Canadian dollars (which is how MLSE accounts for it), which makes it $22.7 million in revenue, not including foreign broadcast deals. Not $5.7 million. That $17 million error reduces TFC's loss to $8 million, which is the spare change that MLSE loses under it's seat cushions.

In reality TFC is most likely profitable.

US$18M per team out of a pot of US$90M. So only 4 teams keep the SUM cash, what about the other 16 teams

Here is the sum calculation:
US US$90M* 75% MLS ownership = US$67.5m MLS's share / 20 teams = US$3.3m => in C$ 4.4m.

I added another US$1M (C#1.3M) after people commented i should add some $ from other SUM events. But, most of the money made from SUM is the $90m TV money. They do make money from events (US and mexico matches). However, if you have been watching international soccer FRIENDLIES last 6mos, most of the recent friendlies have been a disaster financially. USMNT drew flies to the two friendlies in carson. A mexico friendly in miami drew flies as well. I don't think they are making money right now on friendlies.

[Onyx]

Where are you getting these numbers from?

From first glance, I can see a couple of numbers that I want to question.
1. Sponsorship money - there was a sportsnet (?) article that said TFC sponsorship money is alittle less than 20m.
2. Attendance jumped by about 8-10k from 2013 to 2015. You indicated no change. Those numbers would increase both gate revenue, as well as concessions.

Appreciate those comments.
I know what MLSE releases as an attendance number, however, if you go to the games, you know you could move everyone from upper east deck and into lower east and it wouldn't be full. "Actual" attendance seems basically the same at in 2013 basically 20-21k. Your right, maybe i should have used 18000 average for 2013.
- I used 20,000 in my numbers.
- I also used 20 home games, instead of 17 (including 2 home CCL games + a friendly) .. this is aggressive (more likely 18 home games)
- I also used $40 average ticket price ($800 season ticket), i think this is pretty high vast majority of season ticket holders seem to be are light grey or below, and expensive seats sit empty especially on east side.

I think i'm on the high side.

[Areathrasher]

US$18M per team out of a pot of US$90M. So only 4 teams keep the SUM cash, what about the other 16 teams

Here is the sum calculation:
US US$90M* 75% MLS ownership = US$67.5m MLS's share / 20 teams = US$3.3m => in C$ 4.4m.

I added another US$1M (C#1.3M) after people commented i should add some $ from other SUM events. But, most of the money made from SUM is the $90m TV money. They do make money from events (US and mexico matches). However, if you have been watching international soccer FRIENDLIES last 6mos, most of the recent friendlies have been a disaster financially. USMNT drew flies to the two friendlies in carson. A mexico friendly in miami drew flies as well. I don't think they are making money right now on friendlies.

Your missing USSF cut of the TV deal monies