Gareth Wheeler formation discussion

[Oldtimer]

Please read his discussion (link below), then let's discuss what you prefer and why! Or do you prefer different formations in different situations?:

http://www.tsn.ca/the-five-formations-of-toronto-fc-1.351867

http://www.tsn.ca/polopoly_fs/1.351850!/fileimage/httpImage/image.PNG_gen/derivatives/default/toronto-fc-5-nil-formation.PNG

http://www.tsn.ca/polopoly_fs/1.351854!/fileimage/httpImage/image.PNG_gen/derivatives/default/toronto-fc-on-the-offensive-formation.PNG

http://www.tsn.ca/polopoly_fs/1.351856!/fileimage/httpImage/image.PNG_gen/derivatives/default/toronto-fc-diamond-formation.PNG

http://www.tsn.ca/polopoly_fs/1.352168!/fileimage/httpImage/image.PNG_gen/derivatives/default/tfc-3-in-attack-formation.PNG


http://www.tsn.ca/polopoly_fs/1.352169!/fileimage/httpImage/image.PNG_gen/derivatives/default/tfc-3-at-the-back-formation.PNG



(http://www.tsn.ca/the-five-formations-of-toronto-fc-1.351867)

[OgtheDim]

The issue for the attack minded 4-2-3-1 isn't the back 6, its can the DM's link up with the attackers enough. Ball movement is key to our success.

[ag futbol]

Towards the end of last game, when Bradley was making those runs ... I'd go with whatever formation where we can see that more often. He was an absolute beast - 2nd best game I'd ever seen him play for TFC (after the Seattle game last year)

[Ultra & Proud]

Towards the end of last game, when Bradley was making those runs ... I'd go with whatever formation where we can see that more often. He was an absolute beast - 2nd best game I'd ever seen him play for TFC (after the Seattle game last year)
I agree. We need to play the system that brings the best out of Bradley. People like to bitch that he is overpaid and unworthy as a DP but if we get him to play like that week in and week out then we'll be really tough to beat. Against anybody.

[Initial B]

I think the 4-2-3-1 is the best formation when we don't have all the pieces available (or unwilling to use them). There's not enough performance data available on how TFC would play a 4-3-3, although the idea intrigues me the most. I hope they use that formation this weekend.

I'm hoping that Vanney is building a team muscle-memory of formations that he will be able to switch between during games, like the opening repertoire of a grandmaster-level chess-player.

[Ultra & Proud]

I think the 4-2-3-1 is the best formation when we don't have all the pieces available (or unwilling to use them). There's not enough performance data available on how TFC would play a 4-3-3, although the idea intrigues me the most. I hope they use that formation this weekend.

I'm hoping that Vanney is building a team muscle-memory of formations that he will be able to switch between during games, like the opening repertoire of a grandmaster-level chess-player.
I think we will see 4-3-3 this weekend or something very similar with a bit of high pressure like we did last weekend. I have a feeling Vanney's plan is to use that type of system to counter the teams that shut us down by pressing us. At least it should prevent us from losing possession in our final third so often (and so easily).

[pekduck]

From Matt Doyle article. Posted in game thread. Really contributes to the formation discussion here.

I kind agree with variation of 4-4-2 if both Jozy and Seba are starting. Problem with that, as NYRB coach Marsch observed and properly countered with his game plan, build from back where Jozy and Seba are not forcing them to turn the ball over. With 2 forwards not defending as well up the pitch, the midfield will be overrun and allow fast players to break down less than mobile and disciplined back line.

http://www.mlssoccer.com/rivalries/news/article/2015/08/28/armchair-analyst-radar-week-26-2015-mls-season


2. Heroes

What's Toronto FC's best lineup?

Yeah, you don't know the answer to that. And I don't know the answer to that, and at this point in the season, that's a big, fat, honking problem. We've seen the diamond, we've seen the flat 4-4-2, we've seen the 4-2-3-1 (which worked pretty well last week, but that is just one data point).

Here is the issue with TFC: They have two DP forwards who are both best as true forwards. Both Sebastian Giovinco and Jozy Altidore can play on the wing, but neither really should. So that limits Greg Vanney & Co. to variations on a 4-4-2, or bust.

The next problem then becomes what happens on the defensive side of the ball. Here's what New York Red Bulls coach Jesse Marsch had to say about the TFC front line a few weeks back:

We showed a lot of video on Giovinco, we felt that he was a major percentage of the job tonight. Luis made a great play in the box that was aggressive, confident and the right play. Our backs stood him up for the most part but he was still dangerous at times for the most part. We knew that his and Jozy, their work rate isn't the best so we knew that we could find the game a little bit.

That last sentence is coachspeak for "We know that they won't pressure our backs directly into turnovers, or even add the sort of token pressure that forces our distribution into bad spots. It is easy to build from the back against Toronto."
And the knock-on problems occurring from that are obvious.

The Reds will make the playoffs, and they will be favored against a Montreal team that, on Saturday (http://matchcenter.mlssoccer.com/matchcenter/2015-08-29-toronto-fc-vs-montreal-impact/preview) (4 pm ET; TSN | RDS2 | MLS LIVE) will be without Didier Drogba and Ignacio Piatti.

But don't just watch the scoreline. Watch if Seba & Jozy make it hard for the Impact to pick their passes. That'll tell you if Vanney is getting through to his DPs and has been able to fix a year-long problem.

I'll also be watching... Donny Toia. A former attacker who was signed as a Homegrown player by RSL four years ago, he's now become a reliable and relentless left back. There are still rough edges to sand down, but his improvement curve has been impressive.

[portu]

I think we'd best suited to a 4-3-3 with two DMs instead of a single one. Warner and Cheyrou as the DMs Bradley working as an 8 in front of them with Giovinco on the left, Jozy up top and Herculez/Oso/Jackson on the right.

I think our best back line right now would be Morrow, Perquis, Williams, Jackson

[OgtheDim]

About what Marsch said - if you press like his team does, then yes defensive work by both forwards is necessary. Most teams are not that disciplined. That and I see Altidore doing a lot more work defensively then Gio. Although nobody does as much defensive work as David Villa.

[portu]

About what Marsch said - if you press like his team does, then yes defensive work by both forwards is necessary. Most teams are not that disciplined. That and I see Altidore doing a lot more work defensively then Gio. Although nobody does as much defensive work as David Villa.
Except Gilberto (sorry it's true and has to be said)

[Ultra & Proud]

I think we'd best suited to a 4-3-3 with two DMs instead of a single one. Warner and Cheyrou as the DMs Bradley working as an 8 in front of them with Giovinco on the left, Jozy up top and Herculez/Oso/Jackson on the right.

I think our best back line right now would be Morrow, Perquis, Williams, Jackson
Starting to think Kantari is earning the spot. At first I thought 'Oh shit. What a dud signing this guy is' and was wondering just how poor the bottom half of L1 was. But after shaking the rust off he looks okay. Attacked the ball a couple times off corners, has been very vocal, and isn't horrible with the ball at his feet. Perquis , Williams, and Kantari is solid enough CB depth for now but as said before, Perquis' occasional beauty long range passing is what's missing.

I did like the idea mentioned by J.Loome (maybe?) about dropping Perquis in the DM spot from time to time.

[portu]

Starting to think Kantari is earning the spot. At first I thought 'Oh shit. What a dud signing this guy is' and was wondering just how poor the bottom half of L1 was. But after shaking the rust off he looks okay. Attacked the ball a couple times off corners, has been very vocal, and isn't horrible with the ball at his feet. Perquis , Williams, and Kantari is solid enough CB depth for now but as said before, Perquis' occasional beauty long range passing is what's missing.

I did like the idea mentioned by J.Loome (maybe?) about dropping Perquis in the DM spot from time to time.
Putting Damien in at DM is an idea I like the more I think about it, however we have 10 games left this season, can we really afford to experiment with players' positions? Especially given that he has never even played DM

[Detroit_TFC]

Maybe toward the end of the season, if advancement to the post season is sorted, one way or the other.

[Dreadlocks]

Having Perquis' vision in the midfield would be great but I'm not sure he's mobile enough to play DM. A player covers a lot of ground at DM and Perquis has trouble keeping up with players in the CB position. Although he'd thread 3 or 4 great long balls every game, I'm still not sure it's worth the sacrifice or risk.

Also, beginning to think that Altidore is expendable. Not because of his play but because if we're going with a 4-2-3-1 with Giovinco up top, Altidore has no place in the first 11 based on playing style and technical strengths. If he's going to play in that formation he has to be the guy up top; not out wide where he has responsibilities other than scoring.

Does it make sense to have one of your 3 best players in his peak years coming in off the bench because he's second best in his strongest position in the team favoured 4-2-3-1?

[mowe]

I think 4-2-3-1 is our best bet. We need two DMs to protect our shaky back line.

Altidore hasn't shown enough to deserve building the lineup around him. But we could try to put him in one of the wide spots and play more of a 4-2-1-3. Only because I doubt we will regularly sit a guy who makes more than the rest of the team (save two) combined.

[portu]

If everyone remembers 4-2-3-1 was the formation we tried in pre-season (Cheyrou and Bradley double pivot, Giovinco in the hole, Altidore up top) and it didn't produce offensively at all

[DOMIN8R]

I think that this discussion should take place on the TSN site and not here. GW came up with the topic, specific formations, wrote the article and posted it on the TSN site. TSN and GW should get the related traffic and not the RPB. They paid/created the original content.

I'm sure that no ill will was intended. But this is how GW makes a living. No offence to the original poster.

Just my opinion.......

:topic:

[Oldtimer]

Good point, fwiw I did ask everyone to read the original article, which does drive page views, but feel free to discuss there.


I think that this discussion should take place on the TSN site and not here. GW came up with the topic, specific formations, wrote the article and posted it on the TSN site. TSN and GW should get the related traffic and not the RPB. They paid/created the original content.

I'm sure that no ill will was intended. But this is how GW makes a living. No offence to the original poster.

Just my opinion.......

:topic:

[Yohan]

4-2-3-1 with Giovinco up top can't work. Not in MLS.
Giovinco drifts to left too much and he doesn't stay forward and falls back in midfield. Essentially we'd end up playing 4-6-0 and vulnerable to high press. TFC can pass, but not enough pace in midfield to hurt opposition who gets careless with high press, and TFC mid needs room in centre of the pitch to make plays.

[ag futbol]

This is essentially how many teams in world football are already playing. Having a lone striker that doesn't anchor in the middle isn't a new concept at this point.

We are also vulnerable to the high press because we have very few defenders who are comfortable on the ball.

Some of these things need to be addressed in the offseason. Team speed would be a big one for me. Against a SKC or other teams that press high and stuff the middle Warner / Cheyrou alone aren't going to cut it. You need a DM with a big motor to fight back. Having a real RB wouldn't hurt either.

[MightyDM]

Having Perquis' vision in the midfield would be great but I'm not sure he's mobile enough to play DM. A player covers a lot of ground at DM and Perquis has trouble keeping up with players in the CB position. Although he'd thread 3 or 4 great long balls every game, I'm still not sure it's worth the sacrifice or risk.

Also, beginning to think that Altidore is expendable. Not because of his play but because if we're going with a 4-2-3-1 with Giovinco up top, Altidore has no place in the first 11 based on playing style and technical strengths. If he's going to play in that formation he has to be the guy up top; not out wide where he has responsibilities other than scoring.

Does it make sense to have one of your 3 best players in his peak years coming in off the bench because he's second best in his strongest position in the team favoured 4-2-3-1?

yes, that has to be a serious possibility. As long as Giovinco is here, Altidore is number two.

[OgtheDim]

Vanney indicates in his post game presser that when they brought Altidore on yesterday they went to a 4-4-2.

But at the beginning of the second half they went to a 4-2-3-1 with Altidore on the left and Seba out top. Not sure who was playing behind Seba -likely Oso. But they must have a lot of confidence in Morgan to do that.

So, don't be surprised if we move to a 4-2-3-1 with Alitdore coming in from the left.