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View Full Version : Food for thought - The York University Deal



Cashcleaner
05-16-2008, 11:36 AM
Obviously, there is still some irritation over the failed York University stadium proposal that fell through before BMO Field was constucted. I too believe that the end of the groundshare plan at York U put Toronto FC's franchise bid in jepeordy and is the cause for quite a bit of current animosity...

But, ummmm, is anyone really thinking about it carefully when they cite it in the current discussion.

Sorry if I'm overstating the obvious, but what do you think would happen if the York U plan DID go through?

1) Well for starters, we'd probably have permenant gridlines on the playing surface...

2) Which would be artificial with no chance of grass...

3) And jointy run by the Toronto Argonauts and York University...

4) With soccer playing second fiddle to the Argos and varsity teams in terms of scheduling

Now with all that said, should people really try to bring up the York stadium deal when in fact we'd still be in worse shape playing there than the current possibility of the Argos coming here?

Food for thought.

Barbarez
05-16-2008, 11:39 AM
wtf are you doing with my name in your sig?

werewolf
05-16-2008, 11:41 AM
in retrospect we are better off, you didn't even mention that we would be playing way up at the end of the subway line. But the point is, they pulled out and almost cost us the franchise, and now that we have success on our own, they want a part of that. No thanks, they lost that opportunity.

Red CB Toronto
05-16-2008, 11:43 AM
It was a joint Argos/CSA/York partnership, the field would have been a blank piece of turf and painted for the various uses, the University would have also used it. Kevin Pipe and the Argos put the deal together. I would have prefered U of T, what a great part of town to go too, easy subway access, resturants, nightlife. Good stretch of the city. But hey various reasons on both fronts killed the two deals and we now have BMO, which I enjoy too very much.

rocker
05-16-2008, 11:48 AM
whether or not it would have been a bad deal for TFC doesn't really matter.
what I think most people are referring to when they reference the York deal was that the Argos "wanted in" and then backed out (I believe even after they did a nice photo-op with Pinball on the deal). So they wanted in for a deal on a stadium, and backed out, completely killing the stadium deal. To want back in to this stadium now reflects how cowardly they were then. they didn't want to take the risk and now when the risk has been taken by the government and TFC, and it's no longer risky, they want in.

We will never forget that.

Yes, in the end it worked out for TFC, but that's unintentional by the Argos. Sometimes we can be lucky. To bring the Argos in would almost sort of justify their decision to walk away from the CSA and the soccer partnership.

Cashcleaner
05-16-2008, 11:51 AM
True about the subway as well, Werewolf.

Yes, they pulled out and we almost lost the franchise as a result, but would Toronto FC have been as successful as it is now because of it as well? I can't speak for others, but I don't think I would have gotten season tickets if they were playing all the way up at York U. Travel would be just too much of a hassle for me (and others I suspect).

I'm certainly not saying we should be thanking them for pulling out of the deal, but it doesn't make a lot of sense to use that in the current argument because we'd still be worse off at York no matter what happens. Most everyone are interested in the affect the Argos could potentially have on the playing surface (gridlines, no grass, etc.), which is why its odd that they will play the York U card as well.

alexintoronto
05-16-2008, 12:01 PM
"Why post archers crap on our boards!??" - Barbarez 2008

I assume he meant "Our" as in TFC Supporters. Which is an attitude I hope more people adopt.


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Maybe we're better off at BMO, or maybe the York U Stadium would have been better. Who knows? All we know is that the Argos backing out almost cost us having a stadium at all. It's a very good point to bring up now that they want in. Their intention wasn't to put us in a better situation at the CNE. It was to take care of their own interests - we should do the same now.

Barbarez
05-16-2008, 12:10 PM
"Why post archers crap on our boards!??" - Barbarez 2008

I assume he meant "Our" as in TFC Supporters. Which is an attitude I hope more people adopt.


----------------------


Maybe we're better off at BMO, or maybe the York U Stadium would have been better. Who knows? All we know is that the Argos backing out almost cost us having a stadium at all. It's a very good point to bring up now that they want in. Their intention wasn't to put us in a better situation at the CNE. It was to take care of their own interests - we should do the same now.


Exactly. Cash, go blow yourself

werewolf
05-16-2008, 12:11 PM
great job keeping it on topic! :flares:

Toronto_Bhoy
05-16-2008, 12:46 PM
York would have been disastrous! Downsview would have been a better alternative with a subway connection and the 401…

In having said that, BMO at the Ex has worked out better than I thought…my gut reaction was always Varsity…

I was chatting with someone who made the comment about the Feds giving the Argos a sweet-heart deal at Downsview to build a stadium and keep the CFL afloat…never really thought about it but that would keep them out of BMO…

Cashcleaner
05-16-2008, 12:47 PM
I was chatting with someone who made the comment about the Feds giving the Argos a sweet-heart deal at Downsview to build a stadium and keep the CFL afloat…never really thought about it but that would keep them out of BMO…

Who needs hospitals or schools?! Toronto will have a seperate venue for each pro team at this rate. :D

TFC Tifoso
05-16-2008, 12:49 PM
whether or not it would have been a bad deal for TFC doesn't really matter.
what I think most people are referring to when they reference the York deal was that the Argos "wanted in" and then backed out (I believe even after they did a nice photo-op with Pinball on the deal). So they wanted in for a deal on a stadium, and backed out, completely killing the stadium deal. To want back in to this stadium now reflects how cowardly they were then. they didn't want to take the risk and now when the risk has been taken by the government and TFC, and it's no longer risky, they want in.

We will never forget that.

Yes, in the end it worked out for TFC, but that's unintentional by the Argos. Sometimes we can be lucky. To bring the Argos in would almost sort of justify their decision to walk away from the CSA and the soccer partnership.


B-I-N-G-O! It's a matter of principle...the Argos were probably scared shitless at the prospect of sharing the York U stadium with an unpredictable "sawker" team. Now that they see BMO is thriving, and pretty much a sure thing they want in too....umm no thanks, fuck off, and hopefully the door will hit your ass on the way out!

Ossington Mental Youth
05-16-2008, 12:52 PM
without a doubt we'd be in worse shape. Its impossible to get up there, coupled with the fact that we'd be sharing the field with some football teams. FFfft. Theres no way the supporters would be as avid about the team or the experience. I thank god every day taht shit fell through.

STAY THE FUCK OUT ARGOS

BeachRed
05-16-2008, 01:09 PM
B-I-N-G-O! It's a matter of principle...

Yeah, but like most matters of principle, it's really a matter of money - and at this point the Argos don't have any. But they made the smart move and teamed up with Rogers and the NFL bid, so they'll get to share whatever stadium they build for the NFL - Downsview looks like the best bet.

Toronto is a funny market - it seems it can only support one team in a sport - look at the Marlies, they 2000 people for game 7 in the playoffs. Look at US cities with a pro team, a well-attended college team or two, a minor league team.... The Argos should be able to survive with an NFL team in the same market the way every NFL team survives along with college teams.

Don Julio
05-16-2008, 01:26 PM
More to the point: Sour Grapes doesn't make a very good argument.

TFC Tifoso
05-16-2008, 01:43 PM
Yeah, but like most matters of principle, it's really a matter of money - and at this point the Argos don't have any. But they made the smart move and teamed up with Rogers and the NFL bid, so they'll get to share whatever stadium they build for the NFL - Downsview looks like the best bet.

Toronto is a funny market - it seems it can only support one team in a sport - look at the Marlies, they 2000 people for game 7 in the playoffs. Look at US cities with a pro team, a well-attended college team or two, a minor league team.... The Argos should be able to survive with an NFL team in the same market the way every NFL team survives along with college teams.

Well, I was talking about the principle from the fans' point of view regarding this "hatred" for the Argos and CFL.

For the bolded part...do you really think CFL and NFL can coexist in Toronto? For one, I say no chance in hell...NFL would rule in a day. College football is popular in the US because of rivalries it creates (Michigan v Ohio State, UCLA v USC, Notre Dame v Any Team), and while often overlooked, but also from how popular gambling is on these sports (NFL, NCAA). A ton of money is gambled on pro and college football every year....place a wager, watch the game, get involved in the game, repeat next week.......I know from experience lol :D

alexintoronto
05-16-2008, 01:47 PM
What Should happen to Football in Toronto.

1 person or group should buy the Buffalo Bills and the Toronto Argonauts.

The NFL Franchise in Buffalo should be moved to a renovated SkyDome in Toronto and re-named The Toronto Argonauts.

The CFL Franchise in Toronto should move to Buffalo and be re-named the Buffalo Bills.

Toronto is a world class city, deserving of an NFL franchise, if this happens the CFL franchise will not be economically viable. Buffalo seems more appropriate for a second-tier football team then Toronto does, the Argos could do well there. If they don't, with the huge revenue the NFL Argos would be making (for the same owner) and losses could be covered while using the Buffalo CFL team as a farm-team.

This would keep the 100+ year history of the Argos intact and in Toronto while giving the fine people of Buffalo a team to continue supporting.

TFC+Argos4Life
05-16-2008, 02:14 PM
The York U stadium would have been a terrible idea. It’s not at all surprising that the government, university, and CSA didn’t realize this. They’re civil servants, what do they care when it’s other peoples’ money being spent? I’m sure MLSE didn’t think too hard on it either. They’d get a free stadium, and a shot at running a soccer franchise. If it doesn’t work, who cares? They could always turn around and sell the franchise rights to one of the American cities, still probably come out ahead.

The Argonauts were the only ones who figured out what a shit show that stadium would be. They had already blown a big wad of dough trying to get a stadium at Varsity (for TFC to share, no less) before getting screwed by the university. Then they threw away another load of money on the York project before it proved unworkable. You’ll forgive them for being a little disillusioned with the idea of getting their own stadium by the time Ted Rogers offered them a safe deal to stay downtown, particularly when the franchise was in no small amount of financial trouble. The whole idea of BMO came up after they’d already signed the deal with Rogers, so they had lost the chance to get involved. Still, they had assurances from the city that the new stadium could accommodate Canadian football, but MLSE decided to renege on that part of the deal.

Long story short, both the Argos and TFC would have had a rough go of it over at York. I don’t know why you all think the Argonauts were somehow obligated to lose a whole pile of money on a crappy stadium in order to do a favour for MLSE, an organization who’ve always been hostile to the CFL.

It seems like there’s general agreement that TFC would be in big trouble if they were playing at York. Thanks to the Argonauts, they avoided that. Yes, the franchise bid was momentarily put in doubt. But in the long run, the success of the franchise was virtually assured. I would hope these two might at the very least cancel each other out and leave most of you indifferent to the Argonauts, but for some reason you have a big hate on for them. You should be down on your knees worshipping the ground that (Argos owners) Cynamon and Sokolowski walk on! They gave your team a shot at the big time.

BeachRed
05-16-2008, 02:26 PM
Well, I was talking about the principle from the fans' point of view regarding this "hatred" for the Argos and CFL.

For the bolded part...do you really think CFL and NFL can coexist in Toronto? For one, I say no chance in hell...NFL would rule in a day. College football is popular in the US because of rivalries it creates (Michigan v Ohio State, UCLA v USC, Notre Dame v Any Team), and while often overlooked, but also from how popular gambling is on these sports (NFL, NCAA). A ton of money is gambled on pro and college football every year....place a wager, watch the game, get involved in the game, repeat next week.......I know from experience lol :D

Yeah, sometimes I feel like ONLY the fans have principles in these things - well, many players, as well.

But yes, I also thinkthat Toronto should be big enough for both the Argos and an NFL team. Look at the prices for those Bills games - they're not for everyone.

I agree about the betting in the US and while it's coming on stronger in Canada, it isn't as big a factor yet - just not as big a part of the culture yet, especially outside of Toronto.

And the Argos have plenty of rivalries with other CFL teams that will survive the NFL coming to town, because none of those other cities will ever get an NFL team.

No, the bigger worry for the CFL is actually the MLS. Montreal will get a team, maybe Vancouver (though Edmonton or Calgary might even be a better bet) and those are the places where there will be direct competition for ticket sales and TV revenue.

alexintoronto
05-16-2008, 02:28 PM
The York U stadium would have been a terrible idea. It’s not at all surprising that the government, university, and CSA didn’t realize this. They’re civil servants, what do they care when it’s other peoples’ money being spent? I’m sure MLSE didn’t think too hard on it either. They’d get a free stadium, and a shot at running a soccer franchise. If it doesn’t work, who cares? They could always turn around and sell the franchise rights to one of the American cities, still probably come out ahead.

The Argonauts were the only ones who figured out what a shit show that stadium would be. They had already blown a big wad of dough trying to get a stadium at Varsity (for TFC to share, no less) before getting screwed by the university. Then they threw away another load of money on the York project before it proved unworkable. You’ll forgive them for being a little disillusioned with the idea of getting their own stadium by the time Ted Rogers offered them a safe deal to stay downtown, particularly when the franchise was in no small amount of financial trouble. The whole idea of BMO came up after they’d already signed the deal with Rogers, so they had lost the chance to get involved. Still, they had assurances from the city that the new stadium could accommodate Canadian football, but MLSE decided to renege on that part of the deal.

Long story short, both the Argos and TFC would have had a rough go of it over at York. I don’t know why you all think the Argonauts were somehow obligated to lose a whole pile of money on a crappy stadium in order to do a favour for MLSE, an organization who’ve always been hostile to the CFL.

It seems like there’s general agreement that TFC would be in big trouble if they were playing at York. Thanks to the Argonauts, they avoided that. Yes, the franchise bid was momentarily put in doubt. But in the long run, the success of the franchise was virtually assured. I would hope these two might at the very least cancel each other out and leave most of you indifferent to the Argonauts, but for some reason you have a big hate on for them. You should be down on your knees worshipping the ground that (Argos owners) Cynamon and Sokolowski walk on! They gave your team a shot at the big time.

They did nothing intentionally to help TFC, why worship the ground they walk on? If the reason to stay out of York U was it was a bad idea - what was the reason to stay out of the stadium at the CNE?

I'm not indifferent to the Argos - I'm actually a casual fan and have been to a few games. I want them to do well, but do not want them at BMO Field. I don't think it would be in their best interests either. I wouldn't be surprised if ticket prices doubled to make up for the fewer fans able to attend and the rent increasing from 0 to whatever they will be paying.

BeachRed
05-16-2008, 02:29 PM
The York U stadium would have been a terrible idea. Itís not at all surprising that the government, university, and CSA didnít realize this. Theyíre civil servants, what do they care when itís other peoplesí money being spent? ... You should be down on your knees worshipping the ground that (Argos owners) Cynamon and Sokolowski walk on! They gave your team a shot at the big time.

This all true. Look at how we see those 'Soccer Mom' stadiums in the US. That's what it would have been. It's clear that MlSE was only interested in soccer if the risk for them was so low as to be non-existent.