Vanney Tactics and Formations

[Yohan]

After some experimentation, looks like Vanney has found the magic formula, at least for now.

On paper it's suppose to be a 4-4-2 diamond, but it really is a hybrid 4-1-3-1-1 formation.

The key player is, of course, Giovinco, who is playing somewhere between AM and withdrawn striker role, and also has a free role to drift anywhere on the attack. He'll drop deep to receive the ball, but he'll also drift left.

This, combined with Bradley who is playing more of a supporting AM role instead of a playmaker role, plays almost a box to box role, but not quite that he doesn't drop back to help with defending as much as he used to. Bradley has slightly less free role, but has permission to drop back to get the ball in the mid, and stays more or less centrally. He harries opposition DM and CBs from AM position.

What's causing havoc on opposition defence is that man marking becomes harder with Giovinco drifting left or deep and Bradley dropping deep on offence, forcing defenders and DM to switch marking assignments. What's gotten better for TFC is that Giovinco and Bradley are developing good understanding with each other, and they sync their movements more, forcing opposition defence to lose shape. This causes gaps that other supporting players are exploiting better, especially the CF.

All this cannot happen without Cheyrou being a stud at DM, playing a deep lying playmaker role with good long passing, as well as being responsible defensively. And whoever 2 other supporting CMs are, they are playing almost interchangeable, helping out the fullbacks on defence on the flanks, but making sensible runs and supporting passes on the offence. The RB problem has luckily gone away with Ashtone Morgan finding new life at LB and Justin Morrow being adept at RB as much as he is at LB. Both fullbacks are making good overlapping runs and smart ones too. (IE Morrow's goal vs SJ when both fullbacks were on overlapping runs) Fullbacks are having more freedom to pick and choose their runs because Cheyrou and the 2 CBs are much more solid defensively lately.

Every player seems to be so much more comfortable with one touch passing which allows even fringe players to escape pressure from opposition when pressed. So, opposition can't concentrate on just few players, because the supporting TFC attackers are becoming better at exploiting space.

While it's still early in the season, and couple of key injuries and absence will likely have Vanney revert to much more conservative and counter based on flat 4-4-2, but this TFC offence fueled by Giovinco's dynamic abilities is causing a lot of problems for opposition offence.

[Oldtimer]

I love geeky threads like these and want to read people's ideas. I actually think the coaching brain trust is doing quite well.

[Initial B]

And this is what I was expecting as the season progressed - players getting used to each other and improving. In the past, TFC's slash-and-burn coaching/player philosophy never allowed any sort of synergy to develop between team-mates. I expect even less turnover next off-season than there was this off-season.

[akoto]

Great post Yohan! Very well written, and well thought out analysis. Thanks for taking the time to post it.

[Detroit_TFC]

Totally agree about Cheyrou. Very key element of making everything work well. Took some time to sort it out but seems like the roles are clarified now. I do wonder, in the absence of MB, whether Cheryrou will want to move higher up again. I hope he resists that urge, and continues to build from the back.

[Jack]

That's a very good look at what is happening. The switch of Bradley's role has really been one of the key changes for us, while Cheyrou plays a very smart role behind him, but still can get forward and support. We are now seeing more of the 6-million dollar Bradley we all want :)

[jloome]

As I said in the other thread, Gio doesn't come deep for the ball or central very often. It's really just a diamond, a 4-1-2-1-2. Bradley's at the top and collapses back slightly when we're playing with a lead.

[OgtheDim]

We've been really flexibile within that current arrangement.

But, I don't know about us going back to the flat 4-4-2 when Bradley is away. Cheyrou is so darn good in that DM role, it would make little sense to push him farther forward. And I'm no fan of the double pivot unless the opposition is giving up the midfield - causes too much confusion, and would be especially unwise given the current system can work against MLS teams.

The key here is the defensive responsibility of Osorio & Warner/Crevalle out on the wide areas. Those 3 have been defensively tight for the FB's, snuffing out the crosses that gave us a lot of issues in the first few games. That frees up Cheyrou and Bradley to focus on the middle a bit more.

Now, can Findley do that role? Cause he's the obvious one to put out wide left when Osorio moves in to take Bradley's playmaker spot. Unless people think Chapman is going to pull the strings, and I just don't see that. I don't rate Jackson on the left.

I'm thinking a 4-1-3-2 with a more flat top 2 lines would still do the trick. Keep Cheyrou and the back 4 solid and just play a bit with where the playmaker goes. That would be the least amount of change.


Mind you, Gold Cup time, its going to be a midfield of Cheyrou & Warner plus 2 out of Jackson, Creavalle, Findley, or Chapman.

[Yohan]

That's a very good look at what is happening. The switch of Bradley's role has really been one of the key changes for us, while Cheyrou plays a very smart role behind him, but still can get forward and support. We are now seeing more of the 6-million dollar Bradley we all want :)
it's almost like Klinsmann had a good idea playing Bradley as AM of some kind, which made the transition a little easier for Bradley to do this for TFC since he already does it for USMNT

[OgtheDim]

Bradley in an AM position makes sense with us because Giovinco pulls CD`s all over the place while most FB`s in this league like to bomb up and down and use athleticism to get back into position.

Not much sense when you are playing a team like Belgium and ur forwards are not all that active (Jozy aside).

[Jack]

it's almost like Klinsmann had a good idea playing Bradley as AM of some kind, which made the transition a little easier for Bradley to do this for TFC since he already does it for USMNT
Klinsmann seems to be right. And having Bradley's energy pressing high instead of tracking back in front of the defence seems to be pretty effective.

[notthesun]

Bradley doesn't really play as an attacking mid. It's not like he's looking like Higuain out there with his positioning - he drops far deeper and makes late runs, and is way deeper defensively. Giovinco often takes up that position in the hole, but he moves around wherever he likes.

Bradley's role right now is perfect for his skill set. Deep enough to get space in midfield to ping forward long balls to Giovinco and Moore, but advanced enough to get involved in build up and make late driving runs.

[Jack]

Bradley doesn't really play as an attacking mid. It's not like he's looking like Higuain out there with his positioning - he drops far deeper and makes late runs, and is way deeper defensively. Giovinco often takes up that position in the hole, but he moves around wherever he likes.

Bradley's role right now is perfect for his skill set. Deep enough to get space in midfield to ping forward long balls to Giovinco and Moore, but advanced enough to get involved in build up and make late driving runs.
Yeah, he's not really an "attacking midfielder", but he's an attacking midfielder.

[PopePouri]

Vanney mentioned he took some elements of the league that brought teams success when building his squad. My thinking is that he wants to replicate RSL. It's ironic that Cassar is shying away from the diamond these days when it brought his team so much success.

The reason why I think the diamond works and even why it's the go-to formation for Klinsmann is that it utilizes the strengths of the modern-day North American midfielder and fullback.

The common NA midfielder is athletic, good in possession and hard-working with a lack of technical ability. With that in mind, RSL essentially created a template which utilizes these attributes depending on the flexibility of the player. The template would have a no. 6 at the base of the diamond but the other 3 can be interchangeable. The more creative midfielder would play at the top of the diamond with the more athletic players on the sides. In RSL's case, Gil could slot in at the top or either side, Mullholland and Grabavoy can play either side. Fun fact: When RSL made the playoffs in 2011, guess who the no. 10 when Morales was injured? If you thought Collen Warner, you are right. He finished the season with 5 assists.

For us, it's the same. The more flexible players like Oso can be moved around to any side or to the top. Warner can play either as a 6 or on the side. It adds a ton of depth in midfield to be able to move pieces around and because of the commonality of type of midfielder we can sub in someone like Creavalle for Warner with little loss of quality. There's also Delgado who was thought to go to RSL in the dispersal draft before we took him because of his flexibility in the formation.

On the fullback side, most good NA players are hardworking, attacking and athletic. A requirement for the diamond to provide width. We have Morrow and Morgan who fit those attributes to a tee.

[molenshtain]

Bradley's new role reminds me of Tim Cahill in his prime at Everton. but with a wider passing range.

[JuliquE]

Bradley doesn't really play as an attacking mid. It's not like he's looking like Higuain out there with his positioning - he drops far deeper and makes late runs, and is way deeper defensively. Giovinco often takes up that position in the hole, but he moves around wherever he likes.

Bradley's role right now is perfect for his skill set. Deep enough to get space in midfield to ping forward long balls to Giovinco and Moore, but advanced enough to get involved in build up and make late driving runs.
Exactly; I'm not sure about the effectiveness of Bradley playing there for the USMNT, however, with him and Giovinco both being "almost-AM's," albeit on opposite ends of the spectrum, it makes sense for us playing this way.

The key, for me, as I alluded to in the San Jose match-thread, is that Bradley isn't sitting TOO deep (as a default formation), which would generate a false sense of security and possible confusion; Cheyrou is disciplined enough to stay back and break up play, which he does brilliantly, if not so much in your classic, hard-tackling manner—put Bradley next to him, and he begins to take one or two more liberties, going forward, which sees the two alternating roles, and subsequently leads to us getting caught on the counter, when they have even the slightest of misunderstandings (causes a snowball-effect in panic through the team).

[trane]

Vanney mentioned he took some elements of the league that brought teams success when building his squad. My thinking is that he wants to replicate RSL. It's ironic that Cassar is shying away from the diamond these days when it brought his team so much success.

The reason why I think the diamond works and even why it's the go-to formation for Klinsmann is that it utilizes the strengths of the modern-day North American midfielder and fullback.

The common NA midfielder is athletic, good in possession and hard-working with a lack of technical ability. With that in mind, RSL essentially created a template which utilizes these attributes depending on the flexibility of the player. The template would have a no. 6 at the base of the diamond but the other 3 can be interchangeable. The more creative midfielder would play at the top of the diamond with the more athletic players on the sides. In RSL's case, Gil could slot in at the top or either side, Mullholland and Grabavoy can play either side. Fun fact: When RSL made the playoffs in 2011, guess who the no. 10 when Morales was injured? If you thought Collen Warner, you are right. He finished the season with 5 assists.

For us, it's the same. The more flexible players like Oso can be moved around to any side or to the top. Warner can play either as a 6 or on the side. It adds a ton of depth in midfield to be able to move pieces around and because of the commonality of type of midfielder we can sub in someone like Creavalle for Warner with little loss of quality. There's also Delgado who was thought to go to RSL in the dispersal draft before we took him because of his flexibility in the formation.

On the fullback side, most good NA players are hardworking, attacking and athletic. A requirement for the diamond to provide width. We have Morrow and Morgan who fit those attributes to a tee.

This is very interesting. You are right describing the MLS FB and MID, and yes what we are currently playing does suite their strengths. I wish we had come to it sooner, but right now it is working.

Bradley is playing high, but he is not a classic attacking mid, he is what he is, which is a two way player, which helps, because he helps in the attack, but then when we have the ball he presses the ball carrier high. I like it.

[Still Kicking]

I love this type of discussion.
The point that I disagree with is describing the fullbacks as making overlapping runs. I think the Vanney style has been to essentially play his fullbacks as wingbacks, they are not overlapping a winger, they ARE the wingers (especially when Osorio and Warner are narrowly playing in the midfield). I think that Osorio has been very adept at sliding over to back up Morgan. Morgan and Morrow are fully into the attack to stretch the opposition, over and over. I guess I reserve the term "overlapping runs" for when a traditional winger dazzles the defenders on the flank so much that you can launch a surprise overlap from the back. Operating as free flowing wingbacks seems to be reduced for M+M when Jackson is on the field... but that is more noticeable when Jackson is a "fresh legs" second half sub.

[Oldtimer]

Vanney mentioned he took some elements of the league that brought teams success when building his squad. My thinking is that he wants to replicate RSL. It's ironic that Cassar is shying away from the diamond these days when it brought his team so much success.

The reason why I think the diamond works and even why it's the go-to formation for Klinsmann is that it utilizes the strengths of the modern-day North American midfielder and fullback.

The common NA midfielder is athletic, good in possession and hard-working with a lack of technical ability. With that in mind, RSL essentially created a template which utilizes these attributes depending on the flexibility of the player. The template would have a no. 6 at the base of the diamond but the other 3 can be interchangeable. The more creative midfielder would play at the top of the diamond with the more athletic players on the sides. In RSL's case, Gil could slot in at the top or either side, Mullholland and Grabavoy can play either side. Fun fact: When RSL made the playoffs in 2011, guess who the no. 10 when Morales was injured? If you thought Collen Warner, you are right. He finished the season with 5 assists.



I think you are right, and it makes me quite happy. Not just because RSL won a number of things (and came awfully close to winning the CCL), but they played such a beautiful game with such style.

The one big difference I see with TFC is that they play a much narrower field. Maybe that's due to the limitations of who we have, and it will change as the roster is changed, or maybe it's a deliberate style choice, but even now the team is starting to work out things and be successful and play a soccer that's easy on the eyes, both of which have been largely absent from TFC most of its existence.

[barticusz]

So we're 5-5-1 after 11 matches. Only 3 so far at home. If we beat DC United this weekend that'll put us in a pretty wonderful spot.

After this weekends DC game we have the next 3 games at home against NYCFC, Montreal, and DC again. I'd gladly take a draw against DC and hopefully we can continue our run of form at home.