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Ultra & Proud
05-13-2015, 11:01 AM
Sorry but it had to be done.

I won't go over all of the problems and reasons why Vanney should be sacked because there are enough posts in the past few match day threads already. I will hold that until I get more ammunition this evening and start fresh tomorrow or tonight if it's bad enough.

Regardless, I looked at our schedule and the way we are playing coupled with the fact that it will apparently take time to learn to win at home :facepalm: and I would be surprised (barring a huge turnaround in form) that we don't have a new manager by the June 20th home date against NYCFC. It isn't a stretch to see us walk away from those previous four fixtures with nothing or even a point or two only.

NE - Away
Portland - Home
S.J - Home
D.C - Away

Without some drastic changes in tactics and form I don't see us getting through this stretch with much and I can't see Vanney having that long a leash.

ryan
05-13-2015, 11:04 AM
If it does, I don't think it happens till the offseason.

C.Ronaldo
05-13-2015, 11:05 AM
not until Bradley says so

Fort York Redcoat
05-13-2015, 11:10 AM
I can't say I like seeing this thread. I hope I'm not alone.

But godamnit I have a mind to search and merge into Super Duper TFC ALL TIME COACH DEATHWATCH THREAD. It may have a chance to be the biggest thread ever. Unfortunately.

Carry on...

Initial B
05-13-2015, 11:13 AM
I think it's a bit early for a Vanney thread, but I think merging all the coach deathwatch threads into one would be most enlightening. I can imagine seeing a comment pattern forming like a wave, crashing against the shore of the firing event, then sliding back into the forum ocean to reform.

shwade
05-13-2015, 11:13 AM
not until Bradley says so

And Bradley has Tim B on a leash too, so the replacement will just be another twit that Bradley can control.

reggie
05-13-2015, 11:14 AM
not until Bradley says so
dad where are you...we need you,we dont know how to play at home..

Ultra & Proud
05-13-2015, 11:14 AM
I can't say I like seeing this thread. I hope I'm not alone.

I don't like it either but I called it last year and Vanney isn't doing anything to show that he is up to snuff. Like I said before, we have a carousel position for managers because we never hire the right (experienced) guy in the first place. Until we get that right we're always damned to fail.

In the past we've tried different philosophies, rolled the whole squad over, spent big bucks on DPs and always ended up short or just shit. Only common variable is our insistence to hire newbs to manage the squad. So why not try to do something about that too? Unless of course we prefer to wait and see if Vanney can all of a sudden change the fortunes of the squad but our history should let us know what will eventually happen.

Detroit_TFC
05-13-2015, 11:16 AM
Can't lie, was just thinking about this very topic...I see I'm not alone in that.

Fort York Redcoat
05-13-2015, 11:17 AM
I don't like it either but I called in last year and Vanney isn't doing anything to show that he is up to snuff. Like i said before, we have a carousel position of manager because we never hire the right (experienced) guy in the first place. Until we get that right we're always damned to fail.

In the past we've tried different philosophies, rolled the whole squad over, spent big bucks on DPs and always ended up short or just shit. Only common variable is our insistence to hire newbs to manage the squad. So why not try to do something about that too?

You realize I wasn't disagreeing with the threads worth. Just lamenting the fact its an annual event, right?

Beach_Red
05-13-2015, 11:18 AM
And Bradley has Tim B on a leash too, so the replacement will just be another twit that Bradley can control.

Or his father...

Detroit_TFC
05-13-2015, 11:18 AM
Still hoping that a new team president is hired and if changes are part of that, they are done in an orderly and up front manner.

Hey, it's possible!

Richard
05-13-2015, 11:20 AM
I was surprised this thread came so late, after that piss poor performance at home you have to wonder how long he's got. The 10 games rule doesn't apply to this season, but after about 5 or so more homes games we will know what this team is about.

Ultra & Proud
05-13-2015, 11:23 AM
You realize I wasn't disagreeing with the threads worth. Just lamenting the fact its an annual event, right?
I do and I was agreeing with you even though it may have come off wrong.

I am upset that upper management keeps hiring inexperienced managers that make this happen. Not sure I can stomach another full lost season with Vanney after what happened at the end of last year. With Giovinco and Altidore plus the renos at BMO it would be such a waste and very disheartening.

RealG-TFC
05-13-2015, 11:24 AM
I was in the "stability" camp for a while but frankly he should be getting more out of this team considering the players we have. Dump him now, hell put Fraser in as interim as we shop for a real coach.

reggie
05-13-2015, 11:24 AM
and i think you can add TIM B to the watch..its easy to get 6 MIL players..its the 150k players that make your team,and he has yet to pull a rabbit out of a hat...he could not get any help at the deadline last year and we are weak on d and we have no wingers..he is way over his head.

T-boy
05-13-2015, 11:25 AM
One day we will start this type of thread and literally the manager will have a heart attack and die the next day and we will really regret the wording!

Ultra & Proud
05-13-2015, 11:30 AM
One day we will start this type of thread and literally the manager will have a heart attack and die the next day and we will really regret the wording!
Hey don't look at me. I stole the name from jloome!

Ultra & Proud
05-13-2015, 11:35 AM
To me he was done when I heard the learning to win at home thing. If Bez was for real and stuck to the principals that he outlined during Nelsen's sacking then that excuse would have sunk Vanney right there.

From that I lost almost all faith in Bez too. I heard no one from TFC comment regarding this with anything better than more excuses so far.

OgtheDim
05-13-2015, 11:44 AM
People tend to see these threads as either

enlightened reason vs. :fluffy:

or

:taz: vs. enlightened reason

depending upon your view.

The debates are always interesting.

******


For posterity's sake, Nelsen was fired on August 31, Winter on June 7, Carver quit on April 25 and Preki was fired on Sept. 14.

Areathrasher
05-13-2015, 11:46 AM
Very conflicted on this.

I’ve defended Vanney here and on twitter a lot and really want him to work out but as of today he really hasn’t shown me or anyone jack shit.

TFC as a club keep getting managerial appointments wrong and there is zero to suggest that should they fire Vanney they would get right the next appointment right. Just like there is nothing to suggest, right now, that sticking with Vanney will bear fruit.

Another thing that worries me is that if Vanney goes presumably Bez has to go. If those two go what happens with the scouting dept, the data and analytics dept, the academy, TFC II etc. If Bez and Vanney go, you need a coach/GM/Prez coming in that can continue with all the work they have been doing with that side of things.

I’m probably over thinking this. Vanney and Bez should probably go due to lack of results given the financial outlay but I just worry that when that happens it’ll lead to a whole new cycle of dysfunction with the club and we’ll never truly get anywhere.


None of what I’ve typed really says anything but there ya go :lol:

Auzzy
05-13-2015, 11:56 AM
I would just like to mention, I would find it really silly to sack Vanney & hire a new coach shortly before Leiweke is replaced. Sets up for the next coach firing/hiring a few months later, and lets us uselessly churn through an additional dozen or two players in the meantime.

But since it's silly, TFC will probably do it, especially if we & the media bray about it loud enough.

FRANKIE65
05-13-2015, 11:58 AM
Tonight, and, Saturday will tell the tale for me.

Ultra & Proud
05-13-2015, 12:13 PM
I would just like to mention, I would find it really silly to sack Vanney & hire a new coach shortly before Leiweke is replaced. Sets up for the next coach firing/hiring a few months later, and lets us uselessly churn through an additional dozen or two players in the meantime.

But since it's silly, TFC will probably do it, especially if we & the media bray about it loud enough.
You are assuming TL's replacement will care enough about TFC to bother making changes. Or even know enough about 'soccer' to make that call.

This possible new president is the real story. I wouldn't hire a manager before settling on that position but I think they may have done that already. Plus it fits the MLSE (not TFC) way of doing things. Get a Shannahan or Masai to head what they don't understand and let him do the hands on operations stuff while reporting back to the brass. I expect that to happen but if it delays until say September and we're middling along with Vanney then how to you think public perception of the franchise will be then?

starter
05-13-2015, 12:13 PM
TFC needs to hire a President ASAP who should be tasked with making the decisions, not Tim B. Otherwise it will be another 'political', and not a 'business' decision by Tim B.

A Stick
05-13-2015, 12:17 PM
After watching Sunday's game, the performance of the team looked like Nelson was still there. The personnel management of the right back position in the first few games was the first yellow card for Vanney and he should have received a second one for the teams performance in the home opener. End of story. If TFC loses tonight and there is a significant drop off in attendance at the next home game, Vanney and maybe Bez are done like dinner. Also Bradley, the clock might start ticking on your TFC watch to!

C.Ronaldo
05-13-2015, 12:33 PM
i want vanney to go, but please let it be at end of season and only if we have somone better lined up immediately

molenshtain
05-13-2015, 12:44 PM
This is fucking stupid and exactly the reason why coaches never get a chance here.

Ultra & Proud
05-13-2015, 12:48 PM
Also Bradley, the clock might start ticking on your TFC watch to!
I think we overstate that Vanney is Bradley's guy. I don't think that's the case at all. I think Bradley wants to win but knows our manager is a boob so he tosses in his 2 cents and tries to help. The most damning thing about Vanney is that he listens.

Ultra & Proud
05-13-2015, 12:55 PM
This is fucking stupid and exactly the reason why coaches never get a chance here.
Honestly, a manager/head coach from almost any team with winning as a priority in any league or sport would have been fired with the run of results we've had. Hockey, Baseball, Rugby, anything. It's not like we're trotting out a Chivas line up where it could be forgiven or have a full on youth movement going, we are supposedly built to win. Not only are we not winning at an acceptable clip but we are playing terribly while doing it. Terrible in all facets to.

I refuse to be all 'ho hum' like Vanney is over it. I read that Davidson article during lunch and it's more of the same from him. Talking about us needing to play differently at home than on the road and be more attacking. He says it like he's a spectator, like us. Whose job is it to make sure our squad is performing properly anyway? Is it Vanney's? Doesn't sound like it from his interviews.

T-boy
05-13-2015, 01:00 PM
It's far too early for this!

I think we've had a fairly decent start to this season - in fact I didn't expect them to get 9 points from the road trips - that was beyond my expectations. I didn't expect much more than maybe a win and a couple of draws.

Ok, the home game on Sunday was poor all around, but we can't base firing Vanney on that one result!

All coaches deserve one complete season IMO. Winter had one complete season, then start the second badly - he had to go. Nelson almost the same but at least we started the next season fairly decently. Vanney hasn't had a full season yet so I don't think we can judge him until he's shaped the team as he wants.

For sure if we go on and lose between 5 to 10 in a row, yes sure fire him. But we won a game 3 matches ago, that's definitely not deserving of losing his job.

OgtheDim
05-13-2015, 01:01 PM
I'd encourage people to see the interviews with Vanney, as against judging him by reports. Same thing I said about Nelsen, btw.

Outrage over results I get. Outrage over reports in papers - naaaah.

MartinUtd
05-13-2015, 01:03 PM
Did he really say we "need to learn to win at home" or something to that degree? Can somebody please link the video?

Also, these revelations of Bradley running the team are troublesome. At this point, I'm just along for the ride and have no vested interest in what happens with TFC management.

Ultra & Proud
05-13-2015, 01:09 PM
Did he really say we "need to learn to win at home" or something to that degree? Can somebody please link the video?
.
I am not good at looking stuff up but he wasn't the only one who said it. I know Altidore did too but Vanney basically said that in the Davidson article today too.

kwhisperer
05-13-2015, 01:12 PM
Did he really say we "need to learn to win at home" or something to that degree? Can somebody please link the video?

Also, these revelations of Bradley running the team are troublesome. At this point, I'm just along for the ride and have no vested interest in what happens with TFC management.

Yes, if true, the Bradley angle is concerning. It's not as if he's doing anything on the field to justify extra influence on the team's direction. More like the opposite.

Ultra & Proud
05-13-2015, 01:12 PM
Outrage over results I get. Outrage over reports in papers - naaaah.
This should say quotes in papers. A quote is different than a report and it wasn't a blog either. It's legit media so I am sure the phrasing is correct.

And in this case I am upset over our results, our poor play, our excuses, and the failure by management to address and fix the issues. The quotes in the papers don't help but I don't usually watch Vanney babble on for 6+ minutes while saying nothing of any importance and prefer to read his quotes in the news.

T-boy
05-13-2015, 01:24 PM
I am not good at looking stuff up but he wasn't the only one who said it. I know Altidore did too but Vanney basically said that in the Davidson article today too.

i'm not too concerned with this and there is probably some truth to the "learning to win at home" thing. It sounds utterly ridiculous though! I remember my team Oxford back in the UK had a problem winning evening games (it had been over ten evening home games in a row without a win while the team were doing perfectly fine during Saturday afternoon games!) and the manager said "we need to shake the evening hoodoo and learn to like evening games". It sounded embarrassing! But later that season they got a draw at home Tuesday evening, then next game Tuesday evening they won, and then they didn't lose another!

Winning and losing is habitual, and so is home and away form. If you aren't playing well at home but playing great away, it really can play on your mind as a team.

Areathrasher
05-13-2015, 01:27 PM
I can see how the "learn to win at home" quote could raise the ire of people.

But

He's not wrong, is he? I mean, when have TFC consistently won games at home? Isn't the overall home record just slightly over .500?

ag futbol
05-13-2015, 01:35 PM
Well at least it's not fhritp.... I'm in

OgtheDim
05-13-2015, 01:48 PM
This should say quotes in papers. A quote is different than a report and it wasn't a blog either. It's legit media so I am sure the phrasing is correct.

And in this case I am upset over our results, our poor play, our excuses, and the failure by management to address and fix the issues. The quotes in the papers don't help but I don't usually watch Vanney babble on for 6+ minutes while saying nothing of any importance and prefer to read his quotes in the news.

If you choose not to watch the videos, your critiques of what was said in the pressers loses credibility. Davidson, Molinaro, Jacks, Armen & Larson all interpret those pressers. I prefer to watch the videos to make up my mind about what he said.

I respect your opinion on our results. Disagree on your conclusions but I see where you are coming from.

jloome
05-13-2015, 01:52 PM
Well at least it's not fhritp.... I'm in

Does that stand for something obscene involving a pussy? Or maybe "fire him right in time for the playoffs?"

You got me on that one, dude.

We go through this every year; the only consistent is that we keep hiring inexperienced coaches who will take at least 18 months to two years to learn on the job, and in TO they don't get that long. IT's too big a sports town, same as New York or LA.

The facts are bare to see:
* we have no cohesive idea yet of what our tactical approach is; we're still figuring it out ten games into the year.
* Our team does not appear motivated to play aggressively, all the time. In this league, those are the teams that win
* The non-dp signings he has brought in have been busts. Findley and Creavalle are obviously not good enough. Perquis is inconsistent and not a starter, in my view, making too many big mistakes one-on-one. Zavaleta is neither ready nor fit; Delgado has played once.
* They haven't addressed basic necessities, including a starting CB (too much youth focus) and a dangerous winger.
* Michael Bradley's play has regressed terribly and he seems to have a free role, even though he's not fast enough to have a free role, and we don't have a system that is precise enough to allow for it anyway.

I think Deathwatch is an appropriate term, because it isn't the same as 'Dead'. But a good coach could pull this out; look at what has worked, take over the team and make Bradley play to his tactical form, drill them to look for the quick, easy paths of movement, the passing lanes that match up with where you want pressure applied on the field.

When a really good manager comes to a team, we often see immediate results. That's why guys like Dick Advocaat and Gus Hiddink get paid so much as fly-ins, to save clubs from relegation or being bounced from WC qualification. Toronto is a city that needs pretty immediate results; we have two-thirds to 75% of the player pieces. With that much on our side, we should be competing in every game, and we're not.

Either he turns that around, or this will be Vanney's only season.

Ultra & Proud
05-13-2015, 01:57 PM
i'm not too concerned with this and there is probably some truth to the "learning to win at home" thing. It sounds utterly ridiculous though! I remember my team Oxford back in the UK had a problem winning evening games (it had been over ten evening home games in a row without a win while the team were doing perfectly fine during Saturday afternoon games!) and the manager said "we need to shake the evening hoodoo and learn to like evening games". It sounded embarrassing! But later that season they got a draw at home Tuesday evening, then next game Tuesday evening they won, and then they didn't lose another!

Winning and losing is habitual, and so is home and away form. If you aren't playing well at home but playing great away, it really can play on your mind as a team.
I guess I can see this point. For me, when I heard it, it came off as an excuse.

It's the nonchalant type of attitude Vanney conveys as well. Perhaps he is trying to exude a level of calm professionalism but it doesn't resonate well with me.

My worry is that his Mr. Rogers sweater and accompanying attitude are what the players are seeing in training and in the locker room and tuning him out. My issue is that somewhere there is a disconnect. Vanney sounds like he is instructing the team on how to play but they aren't listening. That's what I get from his interviews because he says the right things leading up to matches, then it goes sideways, and then he says that we need to do this or that to be successful. Usually the thing he says they need to do is the exact thing he said in pre-match interviews that they were focusing on.

Either that or he just has no tactics and the plan is for everyone to freelance and figure it out pick up game style.

Ultra & Proud
05-13-2015, 01:58 PM
Does that stand for something obscene involving a pussy? Or maybe "fire him right in time for the playoffs?"

Awesome.

Richard
05-13-2015, 01:59 PM
Good points. However any firing is going to get real messy if TL is still around, I have to assume Bez wont go anywhere if TL is still here, making the next hiring pointless.

We so desperately need a top executive that knows football in and out, TL is a showman, he doesn't build clubs but a real football president does that.

TFC_Allez
05-13-2015, 02:03 PM
Prediction: If we fail to advance to the final of VCup and we lose to the Revs, I think he's done.

Nothing to support the prediction, nor do I think it should happen at this time. Just a gut feeling.

Ultra & Proud
05-13-2015, 02:08 PM
Prediction: If we fail to advance to the final of VCup and we lose to the Revs, I think he's done.

Nothing to support the prediction, nor do I think it should happen at this time. Just a gut feeling.
My prediction is that tonight and this away fixture against NE won't matter much. Tonight has a lot of worthy excuses for it (resting regulars, focusing on league) and the away fixture is tough. If we bomb those next two home matches against Portland and S.J then he has to be gone. If by any chance we are 3-8 with a string of home losses to start off in the new BMO then he is dead.

Areathrasher
05-13-2015, 02:22 PM
And if anybody is harboring any thoughts of Bob Bradley coming to save the day, Grant Wahl's latest should clear things up. He's in Europe for the long haul

http://www.si.com/planet-futbol/2015/05/13/chicharito-alejandro-bedoya-perry-kitchen-bob-bradley

Ultra & Proud
05-13-2015, 02:28 PM
Yeah no Bob Bradley for us for a long time, if ever.

Oldtimer
05-13-2015, 02:29 PM
Vanney's road record in MLS this year is above-average. One point a game is what you could expect, he's done better than that.
He's had one game at home.

If TFC fires Vanney at this point they are stupid.

ensco
05-13-2015, 02:34 PM
This isn't going to be about Vanney's performance.

Vanney got the job during the 3 month vacuum when Leiweke was leaving/AWOL. Bez was left alone because no one cared, but having just spent $100M on the stadium, that won't be true next time.

If Leiweke stays: I think Vanney's demise will have no connection to specific results and everything to do with bringing in a "name" (probably as President) that will help sell tickets and take the edge off the Argo thing. That's just how The Ultimate Entertainer rolls.

If Leiweke goes: all bets are off, but there is a likely caretaker period during which nothing would probably happen.

Question is should there be a Leiweke deathwatch thread.

My vote: I am angry he got the job, but he should have the year. Let's start with the President.

nfitz
05-13-2015, 02:38 PM
If Liewcke is leaving, and we are getting a new president.

Then surely we need to hire new president. Who'll then fire Bez and replace him with his person. And then fire Vanney.

On the other hand ... when has TFC ever done anything sensibly ...

Ultra & Proud
05-13-2015, 02:39 PM
My vote: I am angry he got the job, but he should have the year. Let's start with the President.
My vote: Yes, no, yes.

dupont
05-13-2015, 02:41 PM
If TFC fires Vanney at this point they are stupid.

I completely agree with you. Unfortunately, they have proven themselves to be that stupid many times before.

portu
05-13-2015, 02:42 PM
If you don't think Perquis is a starter in this league then just go home because you clearly have little to offer the discussion through rational thinking

Ossington Mental Youth
05-13-2015, 02:51 PM
i want vanney to go, but please let it be at end of season and only if we have somone better lined up immediately

still not sure where i stand on him but if hes gotta go pls let it be like this

jloome
05-13-2015, 03:28 PM
If you don't think Perquis is a starter in this league then just go home because you clearly have little to offer the discussion through rational thinking

If you think he's perfect or a great center back ... etc etc etc He's had great moments but he's had a few stinkers, too. I think he's a no. 2, not a no. 1 center back.

Brooker
05-13-2015, 03:29 PM
Just give him time. Like a lot of our past managers, Vanney has a proven track record of.... Oops.

And people wonder why some of us are so pessimistic. Prove us wrong, Vanney. Please.

Fort York Redcoat
05-13-2015, 03:36 PM
If you don't think Perquis is a starter in this league then just go home because you clearly have little to offer the discussion through rational thinking

I guess you wanted to quote jloome? I don't see the reference but anybody can have an opinion here. Whether you think its rational or not is up to you to decide.

Areathrasher
05-13-2015, 03:50 PM
Carlo Ancelotti will probably need a new job in a few days/weeks.

GIVE HIM A CALL TIM :lol: :lol: :lol:

Ivy
05-13-2015, 03:55 PM
We are in a playoff spot, after 7 games on a road, and have games in hand on most teams.

Lets fire everybody cuz that's so TFC.

*sigh*...

Ultra & Proud
05-13-2015, 05:02 PM
We are in a playoff spot, after 7 games on a road, and have games in hand on most teams.

Lets fire everybody cuz that's so TFC.

*sigh*...
In a playoff spot due to one great half and a couple wins over very poor teams.

brad
05-13-2015, 05:07 PM
Vanney's road record in MLS this year is above-average. One point a game is what you could expect, he's done better than that.
He's had one game at home.

If TFC fires Vanney at this point they are stupid.

Do you attribute that to Vanney's ability as a coach or two of our DP's snatching points for us? Big difference. With the exception of the Vancouver game - it's the latter IMHO

brad
05-13-2015, 05:08 PM
We are in a playoff spot, after 7 games on a road, and have games in hand on most teams.

Lets fire everybody cuz that's so TFC.

*sigh*...

See my post above.

Canary10
05-13-2015, 05:08 PM
In a playoff spot due to one great half and a couple wins over very poor teams.

And because the bottom 6 teams in the East are utter crap. We'd be in relegation territory if this was that kind of league. In MLS we're in the playoffs.

brad
05-13-2015, 05:11 PM
Sir Alex repeatedly said the second a player becomes bigger than the manager - the manager has lost the team.

If the stuff about Bradley doing what he wants is true , then Vanney HS lost the team and needs to be replaced by someone with more authority.

He might be good with lower profile players, but if the DP's are calling the shots we are done.

Blixa
05-13-2015, 05:11 PM
Vanney has to go. Simple as that.

brad
05-13-2015, 05:13 PM
Vanney has to go. Simple as that.

I agree - but only if someone better is lined up. To repeat the pattern of firing him and replacing him with whoever happens to be available is a bad idea.

barticusz
05-13-2015, 05:54 PM
I ask this question every time.. Who do you all want to be hired as a replacement?

I saw someone mention Fraser.. seriously? a guy with pretty much the same amount of experience?

Petke? Does he bring with him a CB and a RB which is what we need more than a management change?

An international manager? A guy who's never been involved in a cap system or around players that are full of athletic ability but have no technique?

brad
05-13-2015, 06:05 PM
^^offer Arena or Schmidt 6 million a year and see what happens.

Ossington Mental Youth
05-13-2015, 06:06 PM
^^offer Arena or Schmidt 6 million a year and see what happens.

why would they want to come to a dysfunctional mess that gives coaches 6 months at best for success

brad
05-13-2015, 06:12 PM
why would they want to come to a dysfunctional mess that gives coaches 6 months at best for success

The same reason that Defoe, or Bradley or Giovinco would. The money.

[NBF]
05-13-2015, 06:24 PM
^^offer Arena or Schmidt 6 million a year and see what happens.


I dont know if Arena or Schmidt would be the answer...... maybe someone like Paul Lambert, Harry Redknapp.

Blixa
05-13-2015, 08:43 PM
Harry Redknapp would be hilarious. Anyway, how many more games do we have to lose before Vanney gets sacked?

Canary10
05-13-2015, 09:04 PM
We should give Nigel Pearson some cash to come here. He'd sort out our attitude problems fast.

Areathrasher
05-13-2015, 09:06 PM
If Lagerway is turning down the MLSE dump truck of cash. Arena and Schmidt sure as hell ain't taking if either.

Ultra & Proud
05-13-2015, 09:26 PM
4 minutes to midnight now. Clock is ticking.

denime
05-13-2015, 09:30 PM
We need Mariner as a president and Preki as a coach.:hide:

Alonso
05-13-2015, 09:34 PM
Still hoping that a new team president is hired and if changes are part of that, they are done in an orderly and up front manner.

Hey, it's possible!


Haha! Good one! :rofl:

Ossington Mental Youth
05-13-2015, 09:39 PM
The same reason that Defoe, or Bradley or Giovinco would. The money.

the thing is those players tend to have a slightly higher stay here, note i said slightly.

Ossington Mental Youth
05-13-2015, 09:40 PM
If Lagerway is turning down the MLSE dump truck of cash. Arena and Schmidt sure as hell ain't taking if either.

this is what im saying

Alonso
05-13-2015, 09:43 PM
I would just like to mention, I would find it really silly to sack Vanney & hire a new coach shortly before Leiweke is replaced. Sets up for the next coach firing/hiring a few months later, and lets us uselessly churn through an additional dozen or two players in the meantime.

But since it's silly, TFC will probably do it, especially if we & the media bray about it loud enough.


A big part of the problem is the fans and supporters on the message boards and social media.

The front office is so eager to please the fans in general that they are influenced into stupid irrational decisions.

Obviously no one should be fired until Lieweke's replacement is found. That person should keep and fire the GM and coach as he sees fit. Not be tied to them because they were just hired in a stupid knee jerk reaction.

Doing so is irrational/stupid/short sighted/and so TFC.

Alonso
05-13-2015, 09:52 PM
This is fucking stupid and exactly the reason why coaches never get a chance here.


Yup. So frustrating to see it repeat whenever their is a slight hiccup in the road.

We are a bunch of weak bitches.

Vanney had us win 3 out of 7 on the road.

Let the man have 7 home games at the very least to see what he can do before starting this thread.

Ultra & Proud
05-13-2015, 10:02 PM
Yup. So frustrating to see it repeat whenever their is a slight hiccup in the road.

We are a bunch of weak bitches.

Vanney had us win 3 out of 7 on the road.

Let the man have 7 home games at the very least to see what he can do before starting this thread.
We keep playing like we are and by the time we reach 7 home games we'll be writing off the year at the end of June. Or we could squeak into 6th in the weak as shit East and then throw a party for Vanney and give him an extension. I'm going with Pookie on this, the playoff bar is a low one and I think we should expect something better than what we are seeing. Weekly.

Qman
05-13-2015, 10:11 PM
this season is a joke. might as well burned my $2500.
FUUUCCCCKKKK ML$E!! FUCCCCKKK BEZ!!! FUUUCCCKK VANNEY!!

Areathrasher
05-13-2015, 10:42 PM
this is what im saying.

And yet nobody listens...

"We can get Bradley" He aint leaving Europe
"Throw cash at Arena or Schmidt" They are arent leaving the best run teams, already on good money and earned quite a bit in their long careers,living in far more favourable locales to come to a MLSE run shit show.
And an experienced European coach isn't going to be a magic bullet. Look at Owen Coyle. Houston may have won on Sunday but they are struggling overall and Dynamo fans aren't convinced about him

Seriously. The only hope is that Gandini is hired as prez and takes a few months to get the lay of the land and get his own people in.

edit: if im in charge of running this club and i'm looking to hire a new coach, im not looking at Europe. Im looking at Mexico.

evermorian
05-14-2015, 12:19 AM
edit: if im in charge of running this club and i'm looking to hire a new coach, im not looking at Europe. Im looking at Mexico.

Interesting about looking to Mexico for a coach. I wonder why a lot of teams don't do that in the first place, unless its for a desire to give American coaches the experience. When I think of Mexican coaches, I think of Antonio Mohamed. I remember when he was the coach of club Tijuana a few years back and they went on a magnificent run. I think he's with Monterrey now but he would be an interesting proposition with experience.

Marc"2L"
05-14-2015, 01:02 AM
I'd really like to change my avatar, so no firing just yet.

End of the season, at least.

MightyDM
05-14-2015, 06:41 AM
Vanney's road record in MLS this year is above-average. One point a game is what you could expect, he's done better than that.
He's had one game at home.

If TFC fires Vanney at this point they are stupid.

its the lack of tactical coherence, the giving up goals easily, and the poor man management that are the issues.

under Vanney, the second half against Vancouver was excellent and showed our potential. ( we were lucky to still be in the game given he sitter that was missed but that's an aside). The next three games we were horribly weak defensively and playing Hagglund out of position against a pace-y player was a huge mistake. The next two games we eked out victory against poor opponents, and the home opener the tactics, formation, use of Bradley, and motivation were all wrong. Last night pluses and minuses: the formation may be better and Bradley used better, but again we are exposed defensively. On balance, not very good.

brad
05-14-2015, 06:45 AM
You have to ask the question though if part of the revolving door of coaches is simply part of the culture, or is it an effect of continually hiring inexperienced people and watching them learn on the job. Personally, I think it's a bit of both.

Although I think the whole listening to the fans and sacking based on season ticket sales mentality went out the door with Anselmi and company.

pdubs
05-14-2015, 07:43 AM
They main goal should be to hire the correct President. Once that person is in place they will then implement the top down structure. Still early, see what Vanney gets out of the team. The results haven't been amazing, but 9 points in 7 road games is good in MLS. Last night we won but ultimately didn't advance. Defense is the issue. If this isn't addressed in the summer window then idk. No cap room is not an excuse, we knew that the team needed 1-2 CB's last year, because Caldwell's health was already in question.

brad
05-14-2015, 08:01 AM
They main goal should be to hire the correct President. Once that person is in place they will then implement the top down structure. Still early, see what Vanney gets out of the team. The results haven't been amazing, but 9 points in 7 road games is good in MLS. Last night we won but ultimately didn't advance. Defense is the issue. If this isn't addressed in the summer window then idk. No cap room is not an excuse, we knew that the team needed 1-2 CB's last year, because Caldwell's health was already in question.

Vanney is not totally at fault here, a lot of blame goes to Bez.

pdubs
05-14-2015, 08:05 AM
Vanney is not totally at fault here, a lot of blame goes to Bez.

100%. The whole lacking CB and natural wide players is depth which Bez is at fault for. I still think Vanney should be getting more out of the backline tho. Some of his team selection has been troubling but I think he is learning.

On that note, are we happy with Morrow at RB? Morgan has thrown a wedge into the mix and has been quite good. If Morrow can establish himself as the RB option as long as Morgan continues to perform, could help to solidify the backline. Even if Bloom is healthy I want Morrow on the field. Didn't like Morrow at CB to be honest.

brad
05-14-2015, 08:33 AM
^^there is also the case of taking on high salary squad players like Findlay.

Areathrasher
05-14-2015, 08:35 AM
On that note, are we happy with Morrow at RB? Morgan has thrown a wedge into the mix and has been quite good. If Morrow can establish himself as the RB option as long as Morgan continues to perform, could help to solidify the backline. Even if Bloom is healthy I want Morrow on the field. Didn't like Morrow at CB to be honest.

I think i'd like to see a bigger sample of Morrow at RB but right now the signs are promising.

Shway
05-14-2015, 10:08 AM
I'm convinced that morrow is left footed. Because the amount of times he received the ball with his left, which took away the option for him to go down the right flank.

barticusz
05-14-2015, 10:20 AM
Morrow is clearly left footed, he always seems to prefer to cut back and swing it in with his left (while playing as a RB).

ryan
05-14-2015, 10:28 AM
Nice to see Morgan finally has a inside move instead of blindly crossing once he runs out of time. Shame once he makes that move, he's all deer in the headlights as what to do next. Baby steps. I'd like to see Morrow stay right while he continues to figure this out.

jabbronies
05-14-2015, 10:34 AM
Nice to see Morgan finally has a inside move instead of blindly crossing once he runs out of time. Shame once he makes that move, he's all deer in the headlights as what to do next. Baby steps. I'd like to see Morrow stay right while he continues to figure this out.

Baby steps should happen at a lower level - send him to USL - That's where he belongs. He's not an MLS player.

Ultra & Proud
05-14-2015, 12:05 PM
Greg Vanney stressed the club had still reached its immediate goal. "The task of the guys today was to win the game," he said. "To set an identity for ourselves at home, to find some urgency. We did all of those things."

billyfly
05-14-2015, 12:18 PM
Greg Vanney stressed the club had still reached its immediate goal. "The task of the guys today was to win the game," he said. "To set an identity for ourselves at home, to find some urgency. We did all of those things."


So it was him that set off the fireworks at the end

ensco
05-14-2015, 12:23 PM
Mark Abbott and the Don are never going to allow anyone to throw silly money at Arena or Schmid.

There is a centrally managed comp system for managers also in this league. The league won't talk about it, google searches won't find it.

If there were ever going to be real money spent on management in MLS, it would have to be for a manager from outside the league who would actually put fannies in seats.

Ultra & Proud
05-14-2015, 12:24 PM
So it was him that set off the fireworks at the end
Goals reached: check.
Won match: check.
Set identity: check.

Sounds like a reason to celebrate to me. I guess when/if we make the playoffs in 5th or 6th with less points than last season we can have a parade too.

Ultra & Proud
05-14-2015, 12:25 PM
If there were ever going to be real money spent on management in MLS, it would have to be for a manager from outside the league who would actually put fannies in seats.
I am honestly shocked that they never did this.

Detroit_TFC
05-14-2015, 12:49 PM
I am honestly shocked that they never did this.

IIRC Charlie Stillitano, former MetroStars GM and now match promoter, broadcaster, etc. has talked about that at length. He brought in Carlos Queriroz (1996) and most prominently Carlos Alberto Parreira (1997) and got a lot of hell from the league. Those were early days and things were a lot more centrally run than now, if you can believe it.

reggie
05-14-2015, 12:57 PM
Greg Vanney stressed the club had still reached its immediate goal. "The task of the guys today was to win the game," he said. "To set an identity for ourselves at home, to find some urgency. We did all of those things."

f off...he should fired jus for that stupid statement,mtl played ther b team and still scored 2 shit goals like everyone seems to do v TFC...thats coaching ..same mistakes every game.VAN are not better talent wise on d,but they get clean sheets in ther sleep...fire has ass.

Ultra & Proud
05-14-2015, 01:09 PM
f off...he should fired jus for that stupid statement,mtl played ther b team and still scored 2 shit goals like everyone seems to do v TFC...thats coaching ..same mistakes every game.VAN are not better talent wise on d,but they get clean sheets in ther sleep...fire has ass.
You make a couple of points that I never even thought of. I never really noticed it last night but it was pretty much their B team and yeah, the sum of Vancouver's defense is also crap and they manage to pull out clean sheets (GK is much better than ours though).

I also don't know what Vanney watched but we had a lot of problems at certain points in last nights match. So much so that I couldn't even tell it was the B squad of the worst team in MLS. If the Impact used their A squad they probably would've scored 3 or 4. And we aren't exactly free flowing on the attack either. Not yet this season actually. Very disjointed going forward and without much of a plan. Most of our goals come from brilliant individual (and sometimes team) efforts but it's not like anything was drawn up.

reggie
05-14-2015, 01:18 PM
how the hell can u leave a player unmarked in the box with 8 min to go...oduro to boot,has never scored with his head in his life.

Richard
05-14-2015, 01:23 PM
Greg Vanney stressed the club had still reached its immediate goal. "The task of the guys today was to win the game," he said. "To set an identity for ourselves at home, to find some urgency. We did all of those things."


The task was to win the round, congrats on winning the game but you didn't go through to the final, it should have been about winning enough to get into the final, winning the game shouldn't be an accomplishment in a cup tourney when you end up loosing on aggregate.

If it was a league game then I would agree with him.

Note that I don't want him gone, I still think he needs to be given more home games.

brad
05-14-2015, 02:14 PM
Mark Abbott and the Don are never going to allow anyone to throw silly money at Arena or Schmid.

There is a centrally managed comp system for managers also in this league. The league won't talk about it, google searches won't find it.

If there were ever going to be real money spent on management in MLS, it would have to be for a manager from outside the league who would actually put fannies in seats.

How did Seattle do it then?

molenshtain
05-14-2015, 02:21 PM
I still think Vanney will figure it out, and that the team is just going through some growing pains atm. But the more I watch D.C., the more I think that our next coaching hire no matter what has to be Ben Olson, either next year or in ten depending on how well Vanney does. He's gotten so much out of a team that really, really should be a team that makes it nowhere near the playoffs.

shwade
05-14-2015, 03:00 PM
Not to mention. ..did both second half goals come when MTL was a man down?

Areathrasher
05-14-2015, 03:23 PM
Not to mention. ..did both second half goals come when MTL was a man down?

Just Cheyrou's

ensco
05-14-2015, 04:32 PM
How did Seattle do it then?

It wasn't money. Sigi wanted to go back to the west coast.

cincy
05-14-2015, 04:49 PM
There is no salary cap on coaching in MLS. TFC need to use this to their advantage and stop hiring these rookie coaches.

barticusz
05-14-2015, 05:28 PM
There is no salary cap on coaching in MLS. TFC need to use this to their advantage and stop hiring these rookie coaches.

Though I don't disagree that someone with experience should be hired next since we've faltered with rookies lately... I still think the major issue is the roster and depth and not Vanney's management. We've got players that have vastly underperformed this year (Osorio, Creavalle, Hagglund) and injuries in key positions (mostly on the defensive side)... on top of that we've played 7 games on the road and only 1 game at home so far.

I can't see any other manager coming in and doing all that much better than Vanney has given the situation this year.

Ultra & Proud
05-14-2015, 05:48 PM
I can't see any other manager coming in and doing all that much better than Vanney has given the situation this year.
I think a lot of managers could have done better. For as shit as he is, Preki could have done better. Anyone who showed any concern for organization or shape could have.

We don't pick the schedule but playing Orlando & Philly had a lot to do with those 9 points. If there were ever easy points, those and the Houston at home were it. I'm not letting two park the bus wins convince me that Vanney's done a great job and I'm not counting last nights win over the Impact's B squad as anything either. These next 3 matches will be it for Vanney. Make or break. Expect to lose bad this Saturday and accept it but if we lose to Portland & S.J at home, well....

brad
05-14-2015, 07:07 PM
I think a lot of managers could have done better. For as shit as he is, Preki could have done better. Anyone who showed any concern for organization or shape could have.

We don't pick the schedule but playing Orlando & Philly had a lot to do with those 9 points. If there were ever easy points, those and the Houston at home were it. I'm not letting two park the bus wins convince me that Vanney's done a great job and I'm not counting last nights win over the Impact's B squad as anything either. These next 3 matches will be it for Vanney. Make or break. Expect to lose bad this Saturday and accept it but if we lose to Portland & S.J at home, well....

I hate to harp on the point, but Jozy and Gio had a lot to do with those points as well, not Vanney's coaching.

Canary10
05-14-2015, 08:26 PM
Though I don't disagree that someone with experience should be hired next since we've faltered with rookies lately... I still think the major issue is the roster and depth and not Vanney's management. We've got players that have vastly underperformed this year (Osorio, Creavalle, Hagglund) and injuries in key positions (mostly on the defensive side)... on top of that we've played 7 games on the road and only 1 game at home so far.

I can't see any other manager coming in and doing all that much better than Vanney has given the situation this year.

I don't buy that. We have the players to be top third in the league. Should definitely not be fighting it out with the bottom five.

OgtheDim
05-14-2015, 09:34 PM
I don't buy that. We have the players to be top third in the league. Should definitely not be fighting it out with the bottom five.

We've had 1 home game.

And those top 4 east teams are pretty tough battle hardened campaign ready teams - I'd take any of DCU, NYRB, NER or CLB into an MLS final right now and say the East wins. Seattle may be flash and Vancouver is grinding it out too. But those 4 teams have developed toughness to them early that I don't see going away.

TorontoFC6fan
05-14-2015, 10:18 PM
I can't see them firing him.. Leafs coach got sacked, Raptors coach on the hot seat and Vanny out ? MLSE won't be paying all these guys to sit at home.

Initial B
05-14-2015, 10:26 PM
I just said this in another thread and I'll repeat it here: How many people do you think were screaming for Olsen's head the year DCU won only 3 games? Vanney isn't going anywhere. #getusedtoit

evermorian
05-14-2015, 10:42 PM
I just said this in another thread and I'll repeat it here: How many people do you think were screaming for Olsen's head the year DCU won only 3 games? Vanney isn't going anywhere. #getusedtoit

I don't know whether or not Vanney will last the year or not, but DCU and TFC are two completely different situations. DCU has a lot of history behind it, made the playoffs on many occasions which allows it to be more patient maybe. TFC on the other hand have never made the playoffs with a fanbase that is always on the cusp of calling it quits (at least with their wallets). TFC really need to get it right this year otherwise how much longer will fans want to watch a team that consistently loses. They spend big on their DP's but seem to never spend it where it counts (a good coach). If TFC wants to be considered a "word class club", then they need to go out and spend the money on a coach, because what I have seen from Vanney thus far is underwhelming to say the least.

molenshtain
05-14-2015, 10:51 PM
I don't know whether or not Vanney will last the year or not, but DCU and TFC are two completely different situations. DCU has a lot of history behind it, made the playoffs on many occasions which allows it to be more patient maybe. TFC on the other hand have never made the playoffs with a fanbase that is always on the cusp of calling it quits (at least with their wallets). TFC really need to get it right this year otherwise how much longer will fans want to watch a team that consistently loses. They spend big on their DP's but seem to never spend it where it counts (a good coach). If TFC wants to be considered a "word class club", then they need to go out and spend the money on a coach, because what I have seen from Vanney thus far is underwhelming to say the least.


andddddddd the point is completely missed.

MightyDM
05-14-2015, 11:17 PM
I still think Vanney will figure it out, and that the team is just going through some growing pains atm. But the more I watch D.C., the more I think that our next coaching hire no matter what has to be Ben Olson, either next year or in ten depending on how well Vanney does. He's gotten so much out of a team that really, really should be a team that makes it nowhere near the playoffs.

please help me understand. On what basis do you say that Vanney will "figure it out?" There are very few performances - Portland second half last year, vancouver this, last night second half - where the team has performed - in over 20 games now. What is it you see that isn't obvious from the won lost record? At the time Nelsen was fired, Vanney supporters confidently said the playoff position Nelsen had the club in was a mirage because he had been " figured out" and so we were going to miss the playoffs, he had to go, Vanney would be better. Then when the team was a disaster they said "unfair to judge on part of a season". Now it's "he'll figure it out". I don't get it.

MightyDM
05-14-2015, 11:21 PM
Though I don't disagree that someone with experience should be hired next since we've faltered with rookies lately... I still think the major issue is the roster and depth and not Vanney's management. We've got players that have vastly underperformed this year (Osorio, Creavalle, Hagglund) and injuries in key positions (mostly on the defensive side)... on top of that we've played 7 games on the road and only 1 game at home so far.

I can't see any other manager coming in and doing all that much better than Vanney has given the situation this year.

what other manager starts Hagglund at RB against Dallas? That was nuts.

MightyDM
05-14-2015, 11:25 PM
I just said this in another thread and I'll repeat it here: How many people do you think were screaming for Olsen's head the year DCU won only 3 games? Vanney isn't going anywhere. #getusedtoit

Please enlighten: what is it about Greg Vanney that demonstrates that we should live through the losing, poor tactics, bad man management, etc? I am asking seriously because I do not understand what his advocates see.

molenshtain
05-14-2015, 11:28 PM
what other manager starts Hagglund at RB against Dallas? That was nuts.

no it wasn't. It turned out badly, but hindsight is 20/20.

molenshtain
05-14-2015, 11:33 PM
Please enlighten: what is it about Greg Vanney that demonstrates that we should live through the losing, poor tactics, bad man management, etc? I am asking seriously because I do not understand what his advocates see.

The same thing can be said about 99% of coaches in this league when they started out.

What I see is a guy who is willing to be flexible and still hasn't quite figured out how to play to his player's strength's and hide as many weaknesses as possible. It's not a perfect team, we're probably 2-3 players away from being a real force. But I don't know how you can say he's definitively shown poor man management. He's undoudebtly gotten the most out of Gio and Jozy, and has reevitilized the previously outcast Ashtone Morgan. Not everything is perfect, but we had a very good ppg average over out 7 game road trip, which included 5 games against teams who are undoubtedly making the playoffs. I don't see any reason to panic.

MightyDM
05-14-2015, 11:42 PM
The same thing can be said about 99% of coaches in this league when they started out.

What I see is a guy who is willing to be flexible and still hasn't quite figured out how to play to his player's strength's and hide as many weaknesses as possible. It's not a perfect team, we're probably 2-3 players away from being a real force. But I don't know how you can say he's definitively shown poor man management. He's undoudebtly gotten the most out of Gio and Jozy, and has reevitilized the previously outcast Ashtone Morgan. Not everything is perfect, but we had a very good ppg average over out 7 game road trip, which included 5 games against teams who are undoubtedly making the playoffs. I don't see any reason to panic.

In every game he has coached over parts of two seasons, his team has given up easy goals at the start of games, and when it matters. Game after game after game. That's what I see. What fact, other that he is new, gives me a reason to disbelieve what I see?

MightyDM
05-14-2015, 11:44 PM
no it wasn't. It turned out badly, but hindsight is 20/20.

Starting Hagglund, who has no pace, against a guy with serious pace, and exposing him at right back by playing a high line was obviously a huge risk. Not hindsight at all.

Marc"2L"
05-14-2015, 11:54 PM
The same thing can be said about 99% of coaches in this league when they started out.

What I see is a guy who is willing to be flexible and still hasn't quite figured out how to play to his player's strength's and hide as many weaknesses as possible. It's not a perfect team, we're probably 2-3 players away from being a real force. But I don't know how you can say he's definitively shown poor man management. He's undoudebtly gotten the most out of Gio and Jozy, and has reevitilized the previously outcast Ashtone Morgan. Not everything is perfect, but we had a very good ppg average over out 7 game road trip, which included 5 games against teams who are undoubtedly making the playoffs. I don't see any reason to panic.

Because a lot of people on here believe they have some sort of knowledge about the game at a professional level.
Its pretty hilarious.

molenshtain
05-15-2015, 12:01 AM
Starting Hagglund, who has no pace, against a guy with serious pace, and exposing him at right back by playing a high line was obviously a huge risk. Not hindsight at all.

Hagglund has lots of pace. He runs weird and jumps funny, but he's pretty athletic.

molenshtain
05-15-2015, 12:11 AM
In every game he has coached over parts of two seasons, his team has given up easy goals at the start of games, and when it matters. Game after game after game. That's what I see. What fact, other that he is new, gives me a reason to disbelieve what I see?


people would have said the same thing about Jay heaps rev's team until, after about 2.5 to 3 years, he finally found the right combination which stopped conceding so many goals and played better going forward.

MightyDM
05-15-2015, 05:59 AM
people would have said the same thing about Jay heaps rev's team until, after about 2.5 to 3 years, he finally found the right combination which stopped conceding so many goals and played better going forward.

Using that logic, we should have kept Nelsen. He'd only had a year and a half. I agree there have been moments under Vanney, and Morgan has thrived under his leadership, but the general trend is embarrassingly weak defensive play, a team that gives up easy goals at critical times again and again. Let's just hope that your blind faith is correct and that he will learn, because this is the best talent we have had and we should be competing against the best.

OgtheDim
05-15-2015, 06:31 AM
what other manager starts Hagglund at RB against Dallas? That was nuts.

Most of them in the league.

To go over that bit again.


Vanney asks Morrow and Hagglund if they are comfortable to play RB. Morrow isn't, Hagglund is. (This is how Vanney operates) Hagglund has played there before.

TFC spends all week stressing that Castillo is a speed merchant and you can not go high on him.

TFC spends all week telling its mids that you can not give their mids space and time to pass the ball.

TFC has no plans to play high and plans to press their mids.


What happens in the first 20 seconds?


Jackson doesn't press their LM.

Hagglund goes high.


You can not blame Vanney for poor execution.

Ossington Mental Youth
05-15-2015, 06:41 AM
I don't buy that. We have the players to be top third in the league. Should definitely not be fighting it out with the bottom five.

still the first 3rd of the season, if we are at the bottom five by the end of it you will have a point

Fort York Redcoat
05-15-2015, 06:42 AM
Using that logic, we should have kept Nelsen. He'd only had a year and a half. I agree there have been moments under Vanney, and Morgan has thrived under his leadership, but the general trend is embarrassingly weak defensive play, a team that gives up easy goals at critical times again and again. Let's just hope that your blind faith is correct and that he will learn, because this is the best talent we have had and we should be competing against the best.

Wow. We have some of the best talent we've ever had. Hands down. But you're raising the level of players who struggled under Nelsen to incredible heights to make your point, Mighty.

We all should expect more from those players as they are surrounded by "the best talent we've ever had". For sure. But the team is far from composed, player by player, the best we've seen in every role.

Ossington Mental Youth
05-15-2015, 06:45 AM
Using that logic, we should have kept Nelsen. He'd only had a year and a half.

Sure, problem is hes gone and we have Vanney now. We arent discussing whether or not we should have kept Nelsen. Firing didnt make sense to me then either.

Ultra & Proud
05-15-2015, 07:13 AM
I just said this in another thread and I'll repeat it here: How many people do you think were screaming for Olsen's head the year DCU won only 3 games? Vanney isn't going anywhere. #getusedtoit
Lots but the difference was that they stripped DCU bare that year and went full youth movement. The following off season was when they hammered the re-entry draft and acquired a lot of MLS vets and went worst to first. The Revs were crap under Heaps at first because that team is all young. They accepted poor results with a young, growing team and then added some DP talent to give them a boost and then they flourished.

We are not on a youth movement. Vanney is a lot like both of those managers and could end the same but we didn't hire him to wade through rough water with all kids and learn on the job. That was what 2013 with Nelsen was. Our squad is expensive, has enough veterans to not be considered a youth squad, and is expected to win and look decent pretty much right away, especially since we didn't jettison the core like we did in every other manager change. That core is performing worse than under Nelsen. That's the bottom line and we all know it's those guys and not the DPs that make the teams.

It doesn't take a professional football manager to see that we are almost as disorganized as we were with Winter in year one but also have a predictable offence that is easy to neutralize on the whole. A lot of people said it here earlier; it's not the losing under Vanney. It's how we're losing and also how badly we're playing even when we win (against the worst teams in the league at that).

The only argument I ever see from his proponents are to keep him because they don't want change. Let's have a few posts with some solid reasons why we should keep him beyond not liking change or because he's only had 20 matches in charge. Let's have some meat & potatoes, show us why we should be optimistic posts. I'm listening.

Canary10
05-15-2015, 07:15 AM
I think the team has, above all, a mentality problem. We're soft. MLS is about 20% tactics and 80% hard work and playing as a team. I think Vanney's weakness is toughness, motivation and leadership ie. the 80%. You don't bring Mr. Rogers to a knife fight.

MightyDM
05-15-2015, 07:46 AM
Wow. We have some of the best talent we've ever had. Hands down. But you're raising the level of players who struggled under Nelsen to incredible heights to make your point, Mighty.

We all should expect more from those players as they are surrounded by "the best talent we've ever had". For sure. But the team is far from composed, player by player, the best we've seen in every role.

you don't think this is the best group we have had? Which CB's have been better than Caldwell, Perquis and Hagglund? Nick Garcia??? Yes we are missing width in the wing, but we've never had a midfield remotely as good as Bradley, Cheyrou and Even Warner. It's the job of a good coach to put the players in a position to maximize their strengths, individual and collective, and minimize their weaknesses. We've got enough talent here's hat we should be a real force. Problem is, he doesn't seem to know how to protect the weaknesses, a core competency of a good coach

Fort York Redcoat
05-15-2015, 08:08 AM
you don't think this is the best group we have had? Which CB's have been better than Caldwell, Perquis and Hagglund? Nick Garcia??? Yes we are missing width in the wing, but we've never had a midfield remotely as good as Bradley, Cheyrou and Even Warner. It's the job of a good coach to put the players in a position to maximize their strengths, individual and collective, and minimize their weaknesses. We've got enough talent here's hat we should be a real force. Problem is, he doesn't seem to know how to protect the weaknesses, a core competency of a good coach

Hilarious. Use the all time defending goat of TFC to tilt the scale.

Look elsewhere on this forum right now and you'll see question marks rising on every one of those defenders. Feel free to lay it all on the coach's doorstep. Just don't tell me that every individual mistake made by the team is on him.

MightyDM
05-15-2015, 08:58 AM
Most of them in the league.

To go over that bit again.


Vanney asks Morrow and Hagglund if they are comfortable to play RB. Morrow isn't, Hagglund is. (This is how Vanney operates) Hagglund has played there before.

TFC spends all week stressing that Castillo is a speed merchant and you can not go high on him.

TFC spends all week telling its mids that you can not give their mids space and time to pass the ball.

TFC has no plans to play high and plans to press their mids.


What happens in the first 20 seconds?


Jackson doesn't press their LM.

Hagglund goes high.


You can not blame Vanney for poor execution.

actually, you can. He didn't protect against our weaknesses. Very poor player management and tactics.

MightyDM
05-15-2015, 09:03 AM
Hilarious. Use the all time defending goat of TFC to tilt the scale.

Look elsewhere on this forum right now and you'll see question marks rising on every one of those defenders. Feel free to lay it all on the coach's doorstep. Just don't tell me that every individual mistake made by the team is on him.

It is MLS. Players have weaknesses or they would be in a higher league. What CB's, as a group, have been better than what we have today. Cann and Attakora? Ty Harden? Seriously. You can't name them

does our team have weaknesses? Of course, but I don't think you can seriously argue that it's not our best group. pointing me to criticisms of players is a silly response. What group has been better? 2009?

Fort York Redcoat
05-15-2015, 09:09 AM
It is MLS. Players have weaknesses or they would be in a higher league. What CB's, as a group, have been better than what we have today. Cann and Attakora? Ty Harden? Seriously. You can't name them

does our team have weaknesses? Of course, but I don't think you can seriously argue that it's not our best group. pointing me to criticisms of players is a silly response. What group has been better? 2009?

I sure can. And its not silly to point out that best on paper doesn't translate to gameday. There have been far less touted players at this club who have put together better performances when they didn't have the offensive presence our present team does.

OgtheDim
05-15-2015, 09:20 AM
actually, you can. He didn't protect against our weaknesses. Very poor player management and tactics.

Um, what part of "Hagglund was comfortable" & "TFC spends all week" do you not understand?


Vanney can't kick the ball.


You can't protect from players who don't follow the plan after being trained in it all week. Morrow as RB? Was anybody calling for that prior to the Dallas game? Nope. Were people suggesting Hagglund was a good choice for RB? Yup.


You want to give Vanney a souped up DeLorean to go back in time and switch those 2?

Bishop Blaize
05-15-2015, 09:45 AM
Um, what part of "Hagglund was comfortable" & "TFC spends all week" do you not understand?


Vanney can't kick the ball.


You can't protect from players who don't follow the plan after being trained in it all week. Morrow as RB? Was anybody calling for that prior to the Dallas game? Nope. Were people suggesting Hagglund was a good choice for RB? Yup.


You want to give Vanney a souped up DeLorean to go back in time and switch those 2?

my personal opinion on this is that Vanney should have been braver with his choices in that Dallas game. Asking players about playing right back was a mistake to start off (the fact he asked Morrow about playing him there he obviously recognised in his skillset that he could). He is the manager, he is paid to make decisions which a lot of teh time players will not particuarly like.You look at the oppostion + you identify their strengths and you plan accordingly. Sure Hagglund has played RB berfore, but a tall, inexperienced and at times ungainly centre half against a flying winger was an accident waiting to happen. Someone else mentioned Hagglund is quick, over the first 5-10 yds he is not, he's fast enough when he gets into a gallop but by that stage the winger is long gone.
Morrow is an experienced left back, it's not rocket science that he could do a job at right back. The fact that Vanney made the switch so early in the game and has kept Morrow at right back since proves that. If he had of made that call from the start, who knows what might have happened......

brad
05-15-2015, 10:36 AM
Using that logic, we should have kept Nelsen. He'd only had a year and a half. I agree there have been moments under Vanney, and Morgan has thrived under his leadership, but the general trend is embarrassingly weak defensive play, a team that gives up easy goals at critical times again and again. Let's just hope that your blind faith is correct and that he will learn, because this is the best talent we have had and we should be competing against the best.

Just imagine if we'd kept MoJo. We'd be a dynasty by now.

Fort York Redcoat
05-15-2015, 10:50 AM
Just imagine if we'd kept MoJo. We'd be a dynasty by now.

If this as sarcastic as I think it is I'd have to agree with the sentiment in so far as it feels like an easy out to harp on the past and things we can't change than look to the future. I'd much rather see a hopeful replacement option for the current situation than :deadhorse:

barticusz
05-15-2015, 10:57 AM
Mighty, you've pretty much gone and done the opposite of what you were crusading for last year. You, like myself kept stating that firing Nelson when they did was a horrible move, espeically to replace him with another inexperienced coach.

Where we differ is that you're now the one seeking yet another coaching change when we've just begun the season and there have been so many factors (away dates/key injuries) that warrant more time for him.

Instead of focusing on the negatives of Vanney I encourage you to look at the positives, there are quite a few.

Ultra & Proud
05-15-2015, 11:39 AM
Instead of focusing on the negatives of Vanney I encourage you to look at the positives, there are quite a few.
I asked for that in my post above:

The only argument I ever see from his proponents are to keep him because they don't want change. Let's have a few posts with some solid reasons why we should keep him beyond not liking change or because he's only had 20 matches in charge. Let's have some meat & potatoes, show us why we should be optimistic posts. I'm listening.
So let's hear them.

OgtheDim
05-15-2015, 11:47 AM
Conversely, what I hear from the "Vanney Out" crowd is variations on "We should be better."

About as deep.


********

Stuff have been raised - you disagree.



Attack is ticking along. (that is the toughest thing to get right)
DP's are happy.
Injuries lessened.
There's a plan.
Actually using analytics.
Players have bought into the system.
Morgan refreshed (i.e. he can coach individuals)
There's no selfish a - holes on this team right now.


Results - we are in a playoff spot having only played 1 home game all season


Aways to go yet.

ManUtd4ever
05-15-2015, 12:06 PM
The squad is unbalanced, and we have had long term injuries to two of our starters on the back line. Although we lack width up front, we have looked solid on the attack for the most part.

I think many of the goals we have conceded have been the result of individual errors in the defensive third of pitch, primarily due to defenders playing out of position and inexperience in some cases.

I'm willing to give Vanney a pass for now. He hasn't had much to work with in terms of reliable defenders.

barticusz
05-15-2015, 12:13 PM
Conversely, what I hear from the "Vanney Out" crowd is variations on "We should be better."

About as deep.


********

Stuff have been raised - you disagree.



Attack is ticking along. (that is the toughest thing to get right)
DP's are happy.
Injuries lessened.
There's a plan.
Actually using analytics.
Players have bought into the system.
Morgan refreshed (i.e. he can coach individuals)
There's no selfish a - holes on this team right now.


Results - we are in a playoff spot having only played 1 home game all season


Aways to go yet.

I'll add to this.

+ Willingness to change tactics and experiment to get the right fit for the team (not stuck in his ways)
+ Chemistry moving forward (when playing the aggressive way he wants to play) has produced the best TFC product I've ever seen
+ Good substitutions and tactical changes during games (ie Morrow to RB after the Hagglund blunders)
+ Good job identifying which players are performing better.. IE Findlay over Osorio earlier this year. This has no resulted in Osorio realizing he needs to do more and thus he's starting to help the team more.
+ Considering no RB and the fact that we were missing so many defenders we came away with a 3-4 record ON THE ROAD. The most we've ever won in a SEASON is 4.
+ Even in the games where we've done horrendously during say the first half.. we've battled back and nearly taken a point back. His team is working for him, they just continue to make individual errors.. NOT the coaches fault.

Ultra & Proud
05-15-2015, 12:16 PM
Attack is ticking along. (that is the toughest thing to get right)

True but expected with the pieces we brought in. This type of talent could have scored for Preki or even Mariner. Also should be noted most goals coming on the counter.


DP's are happy
True but they all were at this time last season too.


Injuries lessened.
Similar but probably true. I think Vanney's academy training make his sessions easier on players. Nelsen was probably more like Preki in that regard.


There's a plan.
This is a theory. No actual consistent evidence seen yet. After 20 matches. Just talk.


Actually using analytics.
Which is great but it hasn't reaped any rewards yet but good that it's used.


Players have bought into the system.
Assuming there is one. I am sure when Vanney is sacked we'll hear the same refrain about no tactics, etc.


Morgan refreshed (i.e. he can coach individuals)
This would be my biggest plus for him. It also goes back to his experience of being an academy manager and probably also because his demeanor is similar to public school librarian (ie. less fear to fail). That works great on young guys but can have the reverse effect on older players and it may be doing just that.


There's no selfish a - holes on this team right now.
That'd be more on Bez than Vanney. Bez getting all the blame for assembling this roster so he deserves credit for getting better personalities in too.


Results - we are in a playoff spot having only played 1 home game all season
As you said, aways to go yet and we were in a similar position to last year (but worse). The caveat on this year is that we're in the East and beat two of the worst teams in the conference to be in that spot. It would almost be harder to miss the playoffs this year than make it.

Ultra & Proud
05-15-2015, 12:32 PM
Willingness to change tactics and experiment to get the right fit for the team (not stuck in his ways)
This is a plus. Better than any manager we've had since Cummins. That being said any good manager would be willing to change tactics.


Chemistry moving forward (when playing the aggressive way he wants to play) has produced the best TFC product I've ever seen
True but again should be expected with the talent that is available regardless of coaching.


Good job identifying which players are performing better.. IE Findlay over Osorio earlier this year. This has no resulted in Osorio realizing he needs to do more and thus he's starting to help the team more.
Somewhat yes but still starts Findley only to pull him in the 50 minute range. The Creavalle experiment went on far too long too. Mixed in this regard.


Considering no RB and the fact that we were missing so many defenders we came away with a 3-4 record ON THE ROAD
Same as I said above. Full marks for Vancouver and being competitive in others but the wins came against poor opponents. After 8 years I am done with moral victories and being happy in making matches close.


Even in the games where we've done horrendously during say the first half.. we've battled back and nearly taken a point back. His team is working for him, they just continue to make individual errors.. NOT the coaches fault.

This is true as well. They do appear to fight for him but they may also be fighting for each other. Vanney doesn't seem 'rah rah' in the half time speech department to me so Bradley may have a part in that too. Individual errors are not the coaches fault at all but a good coach identifies the weak spots and adjusts tactics to compensate, especially in game. We don't do that enough. Also our set piece defending is very poor. That is on the manager.

Canary10
05-15-2015, 12:57 PM
I don't think they fight for him at all. They're out on cakewalks for half the games.

barticusz
05-15-2015, 12:59 PM
The same way that people are saying all the blame goes on the coach rather the individual lapses, I don't think you can say that the team is only clicking because of the players they have. Yes the players are much better, but they're also playing within the framework and system he has laid out for them.

Up until that Houston game Findlay was leagues better than Osorio has been this season. Interestingly enough whoscored rated Findlay better than Osorio in that game too and he got subbed off.. http://www.whoscored.com/Matches/914934/Live

It doesn't matter who you beat whether they're poor or not, you still need to win the game. 3-4 is a fantastic road record. If we somehow beat NER this weekend we'll be 4-4 on the road. That's insane for this team at this point in the season.

As per your last statement, I don't get it. First you agree with my initial statement (vanney adjusts tactics) and backed it up with your own comment later (findlay subbed off) and in this final one you're stating the opposite again. Vanney realized that Findlay, while good add holding the ball up at times and making good runs into the box wasn't doing much to help the midfield against Houston and so he made a switch both in personnel and tactics by bringing Oso. That helped the team out very well and it was done nice and early so there was lots of time to get back into the game. Wonderful. Set piece defending is bad, yes I'll agree. This has always been an issue for this team and may just be a MLS talent level problem. Granted we've had mistakes by experienced guys lately too.

We all want this team to be successful, but this is a difficult league to do that in with all the cap constraints. We're fortunate that we have owners that are willing to get players at the very top level, but we need to bide our time to either develop good depth or continue to shop around for guys to fill those voids.

I think Bez has done a tremendous job getting the players he has so far, but he's got lots of work left. We can all agree that getting additional defensive help and a winger/cdm is what this team desperately needs. But to think that we need yet another management change while we're working to create an identity with the current group of players is mind boggling to me. The fans are this teams own worst enemy. We seem to want instant gratification while not realizing that it doesn't work that way in this league. We know constant turnover is what continues to take us backwards yet we demand it every single freaking year. It's unbelievable.

TFC07
05-15-2015, 01:02 PM
The squad is unbalanced, and we have had long term injuries to two of our starters on the back line. Although we lack width up front, we have looked solid on the attack for the most part.

I think many of the goals we have conceded have been the result of individual errors in the defensive third of pitch, primarily due to defenders playing out of position and inexperience in some cases.

I'm willing to give Vanney a pass for now. He hasn't had much to work with in terms of reliable defenders.

Even at full strength, this team is weak in the backline and wing while still figuring out where/how to play Bradley on the field. This is our GM fault for not fixing this issue.

I personally believe we just need veteran coach who commands respect in the locker room since I feel Vanney isn't "respected" by players (especially from Bradley who I feel is running this club). Tactic wise, Vanney seems like he's learning from his mistakes, but how long can we wait for Vanney to learn his trade and be successful?

Ultra & Proud
05-15-2015, 01:03 PM
We're fortunate that we have owners that are willing to get players at the very top level
But never managers :facepalm:

OgtheDim
05-15-2015, 01:06 PM
I don't think they fight for him at all. They're out on cakewalks for half the games.

Ur joking right? You can't see the effort they are putting in all over the pitch at all?

These guys are running miles more then we are used to and you think they are loafing it around?

Ur not seeing the covering for defenders who go forward? The way Morrow and Morgan are using the sideline as a 3rd defender?

Ur not seeing Giovinco busting his gut to get an end ball? Ur not seeing Jozy go out way wide and back to defend?

Ur not noticing the total absence of anybody doing a Defoe with hands on their hips stewing over not getting the service they prefer?



*********


Hey, I can blame these guys for not being good enough but not trying or working isn't part of it.

Ultra & Proud
05-15-2015, 01:18 PM
Ur not noticing the total absence of anybody doing a Defoe with hands on their hips stewing over not getting the service they prefer?

Findley does that a bit but think it's just laziness rather that being a bitch.

And honestly the only legit 100% loafer we have is Moore. He does not fight for Vanney. The only thing he is fighting is the urge to lay down on the pitch and have a nap.

ensco
05-15-2015, 01:26 PM
No team ever looks like a team when 15 guys make x and 3 guys make 50-100x.

It just doesn't work.

ManUtd4ever
05-15-2015, 01:26 PM
I would like to see what this team can do under Vanney's tutelage with a solidified backline and creativity on the wings. Until then, I don't think it's fair to hold him entirely accountable for our deficiencies as a team. These issues should have been addressed in the off season. Hopefully, they will be addressed in the summer transfer window.

Canary10
05-15-2015, 01:49 PM
Ur joking right? You can't see the effort they are putting in all over the pitch at all?

These guys are running miles more then we are used to and you think they are loafing it around?

Ur not seeing the covering for defenders who go forward? The way Morrow and Morgan are using the sideline as a 3rd defender?

Ur not seeing Giovinco busting his gut to get an end ball? Ur not seeing Jozy go out way wide and back to defend?

Ur not noticing the total absence of anybody doing a Defoe with hands on their hips stewing over not getting the service they prefer?



*********


Hey, I can blame these guys for not being good enough but not trying or working isn't part of it.

Well I run 90k a week, so not sure they are running more than I am personally.

But yeah, I absolutely don't think they are going hard 90 minutes. They were absent for 70 minutes of the Houston game. Little commitment, totally passive (as Vanney himself said), not pressing the game. These guys expect to be handed the match every time they walk out. Needs a big change in mentality.

Ultra & Proud
05-15-2015, 01:58 PM
No team ever looks like a team when 15 guys make x and 3 guys make 50-100x.

It just doesn't work.
Works okay in LA and Seattle. NYRB too.

Canary10
05-15-2015, 02:00 PM
Works okay in LA and Seattle. NYRB too.

Those two teams have coaches who can knit it all together...

New York I'm not so sure.

Ultra & Proud
05-15-2015, 02:02 PM
But yeah, I absolutely don't think they are going hard 90 minutes. They were absent for 70 minutes of the Houston game. Little commitment, totally passive (as Vanney himself said), not pressing the game. These guys expect to be handed the match every time they walk out. Needs a big change in mentality.
Biggest thing I think that needs adjustment is this.

Ultra & Proud
05-15-2015, 02:04 PM
Those two teams have coaches who can knit it all together...

New York I'm not so sure.

Well the manager that seemed to knit them together for his 2 seasons and win the Supporter's Shield and make the conference finals just happens to be available.

Canary10
05-15-2015, 02:06 PM
Well the manager that seemed to knit them together for his 2 seasons and win the Supporter's Shield and make the conference finals just happens to be available.

Yeah. Not totally sold on him. Did anyone figure out exactly why he was fired?

Areathrasher
05-15-2015, 02:08 PM
Yeah. Not totally sold on him. Did anyone figure out exactly why he was fired?

Petke's old school approach didn't mesh with their new GM Ali Curtis. So Curtis brought in his own guy who thinks along the same lines as him.


“The role of the traditional coach is not just changing—it’s changed,” Curtis said. “You no longer have a traditional coach who can focus primarily on the first team and only has to understand how to organize a training session and the Xs and Os. If that’s the route you’re taking three or four years from now, you’re going to be left behind. This club needed a head coach who not only could understand the direction the club needed to take, [but] be involved in all those areas, from youth development to performance and data analysis to communication—processing the style of play that we wanted to play. We needed a head coach that just wasn’t just involved and integrated, but that had that in his DNA.”

http://www.si.com/planet-futbol/2015/04/13/new-york-red-bulls-ali-curtis-mike-petke-jesse-marsch-mls

Derko
05-15-2015, 02:17 PM
Findley does that a bit but think it's just laziness rather that being a bitch.

And honestly the only legit 100% loafer we have is Moore. He does not fight for Vanney. The only thing he is fighting is the urge to lay down on the pitch and have a nap.

That is pretty funny.
I agree. We should have kept Dike.

Canary10
05-15-2015, 02:24 PM
Petke's old school approach didn't mesh with their new GM Ali Curtis. So Curtis brought in his own guy who thinks along the same lines as him.

[/FONT][/COLOR]

http://www.si.com/planet-futbol/2015/04/13/new-york-red-bulls-ali-curtis-mike-petke-jesse-marsch-mls

Interesting article, thanks for posting. The old NYRB looks like us now, with Gio instead of Henry. Could see Vanney doing well at a club with that philosophy. Unfortunately he's with us.

Ultra & Proud
05-15-2015, 02:30 PM
Interesting article, thanks for posting. The old NYRB looks like us now, with Gio instead of Henry. Could see Vanney doing well at a club with that philosophy. Unfortunately he's with us.
So that means Petke in theory, should work out well like he did there.

Canary10
05-15-2015, 02:34 PM
So that means Petke in theory, should work out well like he did there.

Yeah. In theory. Except that they love him in New York because of his deep roots there, whereas you and I would be calling for his head if the first ten games go badly. He he.

Ultra & Proud
05-15-2015, 02:36 PM
Yeah. In theory. Except that they love him in New York because of his deep roots there, whereas you and I would be calling for his head if the first ten games go badly. He he.
Maybe but I never called for Nelsen's head. The only managers that I called for their heads were the ones that were totally lost and out of their depth; Winter, Mariner, and now Vanney. And Mo. I forgot about him.

molenshtain
05-15-2015, 03:20 PM
Lots but the difference was that they stripped DCU bare that year and went full youth movement. The following off season was when they hammered the re-entry draft and acquired a lot of MLS vets and went worst to first. The Revs were crap under Heaps at first because that team is all young. They accepted poor results with a young, growing team and then added some DP talent to give them a boost and then they flourished.

We are not on a youth movement. Vanney is a lot like both of those managers and could end the same but we didn't hire him to wade through rough water with all kids and learn on the job. That was what 2013 with Nelsen was. Our squad is expensive, has enough veterans to not be considered a youth squad, and is expected to win and look decent pretty much right away, especially since we didn't jettison the core like we did in every other manager change. That core is performing worse than under Nelsen. That's the bottom line and we all know it's those guys and not the DPs that make the teams.

It doesn't take a professional football manager to see that we are almost as disorganized as we were with Winter in year one but also have a predictable offence that is easy to neutralize on the whole. A lot of people said it here earlier; it's not the losing under Vanney. It's how we're losing and also how badly we're playing even when we win (against the worst teams in the league at that).

The only argument I ever see from his proponents are to keep him because they don't want change. Let's have a few posts with some solid reasons why we should keep him beyond not liking change or because he's only had 20 matches in charge. Let's have some meat & potatoes, show us why we should be optimistic posts. I'm listening.


But this core isn't performing worse than under Nelsen. I don't know how you could come to that conclusion.

molenshtain
05-15-2015, 03:22 PM
Yeah. In theory. Except that they love him in New York because of his deep roots there, whereas you and I would be calling for his head if the first ten games go badly. He he.

well, Petke did only win like 2 or 3 of his first 10 at NYRB, so definitely.

Ultra & Proud
05-15-2015, 03:39 PM
But this core isn't performing worse than under Nelsen. I don't know how you could come to that conclusion.
- Jackson looked good then not so much, inconsistent. So similar.
- Osorio is regressing but was already on a downward slide. Surely no better, probably worse.
- Moore is worse.
- Warner looks alright but gets few minutes.
- Creavalle is terrible and gets too many minutes.
- Bendik was so so pre-injury. Looked shakier than before. Distribution still awful.
- Everybody is having a shit fit over Bradley's form so...
- Caldwell injured again, Hagglund worse, Morrow good, and Morgan a surprise resurrection.

I think that is the basis of the core we kept together. Hard to say many, if any besides Morgan, have improved under Vanney but they surely aren't working well as a unit and the shape and organization of them is terrible.

jloome
05-15-2015, 04:22 PM
Maybe but I never called for Nelsen's head. The only managers that I called for their heads were the ones that were totally lost and out of their depth; Winter, Mariner, and now Vanney. And Mo. I forgot about him.

You don't think Nelsen was lost, but you're asking us to accept your opinion on Vanney. Look, I see problems in all of these guys because we've never hired an experienced coach or had a balanced roster. But Nelsen was completely clueless. Without Defoe scoring, we were utterly lost.

Ultra & Proud
05-15-2015, 04:35 PM
You don't think Nelsen was lost, but you're asking us to accept your opinion on Vanney. Look, I see problems in all of these guys because we've never hired an experienced coach or had a balanced roster. But Nelsen was completely clueless. Without Defoe scoring, we were utterly lost.
But we could defend to an extent. He wasn't great at all but I was good with giving him those last 10 matches to sink or swim. Sure he'd be gone by now but things would have been much different if Nelsen was allowed to blow the season on his own. Maybe we would have looked in a different direction in the off season than Vanney. Too late now.

And Nelsen wasn't totally lost. Just going forward. We were organized and defended okay. Not great but okay.

Now take Altidore and Giovinco out and do we have 9 points? Does Vanney adjust the tactics to put up a fight? Nope. He fails just like Nelsen did.

Ultra & Proud
05-15-2015, 04:54 PM
And enough Sigi and Bruce talk. They aren't coming and neither is Bradley's Dad.

Maybe the brass will let Vanney have the year to learn on the job. At least I know my season tix will still be about $200 next season too so all won't be lost. I am again staying my Vanney out talk until after the New England match. Let's see who he plays and what his plan is.

molenshtain
05-15-2015, 05:04 PM
But we could defend to an extent. He wasn't great at all but I was good with giving him those last 10 matches to sink or swim. Sure he'd be gone by now but things would have been much different if Nelsen was allowed to blow the season on his own. Maybe we would have looked in a different direction in the off season than Vanney. Too late now.

And Nelsen wasn't totally lost. Just going forward. We were organized and defended okay. Not great but okay.

Now take Altidore and Giovinco out and do we have 9 points? Does Vanney adjust the tactics to put up a fight? Nope. He fails just like Nelsen did.


By the time Nelsen got fired our defence and midfield were in shambles. Worse than it is now.

barticusz
05-15-2015, 05:23 PM
But we could defend to an extent. He wasn't great at all but I was good with giving him those last 10 matches to sink or swim. Sure he'd be gone by now but things would have been much different if Nelsen was allowed to blow the season on his own. Maybe we would have looked in a different direction in the off season than Vanney. Too late now.

And Nelsen wasn't totally lost. Just going forward. We were organized and defended okay. Not great but okay.

Now take Altidore and Giovinco out and do we have 9 points? Does Vanney adjust the tactics to put up a fight? Nope. He fails just like Nelsen did.

I'm with you, always wanted to ride out Nelson. But now that Vanney's here I'll support giving him enough time to truly justify whether or not he's good enough.

It's funny because they're the polar opposite of one another.. Under Nelson this team had no clue moving foward but could defend. Under Vanney (when playing the way he initially wanted them to play) they look great moving forward but end up getting countered all the time. Personally I'll take a team that looks great moving forward over a defensive team any day. At least that way we have a chance to cheer for goals rather than be happy with constant draws.

You keep mentioning stuff like.. "take Altidore and Giovinco away" and it changes things. Nelson basically had the same situation available for him. He also had 3 DPs. Gilberto and Defoe. Sure their style was different, but where Nelson failed was making them gel. Vanney has already shown that he can get the most out of these guys plus Bradley (I'm not in the Bradley's been poor camp.. ) And you're once again contradicting yourself, by stating that Vanney doesn't alter the tactics to put up a fight. You stated that he did just that by putting oso on and in doing so the team no longer played in a 4-4-2 but started to press higher up and create more opportunities against Houston.

Give Vanney the benefit of the doubt and lets see how the team is looking come our first July game. Thats 5 home games and 2 away games. I'd expect us to be at or above .500 at that time.

Ultra & Proud
05-15-2015, 06:09 PM
I'm with you, always wanted to ride out Nelson. But now that Vanney's here I'll support giving him enough time to truly justify whether or not he's good enough.

It's funny because they're the polar opposite of one another.. Under Nelson this team had no clue moving foward but could defend. Under Vanney (when playing the way he initially wanted them to play) they look great moving forward but end up getting countered all the time. Personally I'll take a team that looks great moving forward over a defensive team any day. At least that way we have a chance to cheer for goals rather than be happy with constant draws.

You keep mentioning stuff like.. "take Altidore and Giovinco away" and it changes things. Nelson basically had the same situation available for him. He also had 3 DPs. Gilberto and Defoe. Sure their style was different, but where Nelson failed was making them gel. Vanney has already shown that he can get the most out of these guys plus Bradley (I'm not in the Bradley's been poor camp.. ) And you're once again contradicting yourself, by stating that Vanney doesn't alter the tactics to put up a fight. You stated that he did just that by putting oso on and in doing so the team no longer played in a 4-4-2 but started to press higher up and create more opportunities against Houston.

Give Vanney the benefit of the doubt and lets see how the team is looking come our first July game. Thats 5 home games and 2 away games. I'd expect us to be at or above .500 at that time.
Nothing is absolute. He put Osorio on and the match changed. Credit due. Other times he misses the boat and generally we need to make half time adjustments because our tactics were off from the start and we're trailing and looking dire. Again since I'm not sure of his influence because who can say if anything, good or bad is Vanney. Maybe the team ignores everything he says and Bradley runs the show. Honestly who knows? Then I am giving Vanney a bad rap for being tactically inept. In that case he'd just be inept at actually leading the team. Again, no one knows. We'll see after he's fired. Whenever that happens.

And that's the first time I said take Altidore and Giovinco away. I early pointed to their quality as to the reason we have what we have to allude that a decent amount of goals and solid play are through individual acts of talent. Something Vanney has no more control over that the individual mistakes that people mentioned earlier. Forget those moments and judge him and our team by the play between those moments. If you think that's good enough and you're happy then great. With what we have and what we've been through so far I expect more than dealing with more learning curves.

MightyDM
05-18-2015, 09:46 AM
In June July and August 2014 TFC under Nelsen won 4 drew 5 lost 5. In his last 5 games they were 2-1-2. The team under Vanney needs to be significantly better than that.

i really enjoyed the New England game, but it didn't really answer whether Vanney has made progress as a coach. The weakness demonstrated on the field has been giving up goals at the worst possible time, again and again, often because of poor tactics or personnel choices (in the case of Dallas, both). Off the field, his repeated statements that "we had talked about that" worry me because coaching isn't about talking, it's about doing. Doing again and again and again so the desired habit becomes automatic.

In this context, the play of the club versus New England suggested that he has been able to find the right balance in some respects with his current players. The diamond worked and he is getting much more out of Bradley, and it looked like they had actually practiced the formation rather than "talking about it." However, the weakness of the formation is the space on the wings and New England scored from there, in a predictable way, so Vanney clearly hasn't solved that part. And they were pretty lucky not to concede a late goal. So for me, the jury is still out on Vanney. Let's hope Jozy's injury isn't serious so the team has a chance to get on a roll and make this discussion moot.

MightyDM
05-18-2015, 09:59 AM
And - that would mean we would need to be 3-1-1 over the next five games for Vanney's TFC to be achieving more than Nelsen's. 2-1-2 would give us seven points and we would have 17 from 14, just like Nelsen, albeit with far more losses under Vanney.

dupont
05-18-2015, 10:01 AM
And - that would mean we would need to be 3-1-1 over the next five games for Vanney's TFC to be achieving more than Nelsen's. 2-1-2 would give us seven points and we would have 17 from 14, just like Nelsen, albeit with far more losses under Vanney.

You could tell that the Nelson firing had to do with some intense in-fighting with him and Bez/Lewieke though. I don't know what it was exactly but there was something pissing them all off that was more than just the record that led to the firing.

Detroit_TFC
05-18-2015, 10:28 AM
You could tell that the Nelson firing had to do with some intense in-fighting with him and Bez/Lewieke though. I don't know what it was exactly but there was something pissing them all off that was more than just the record that led to the firing.

Agree 100%. Seemed very different than from the Winter firing. Wasn't about salvaging the season, it was about eliminating conflict.

bman27
05-18-2015, 01:03 PM
Agree 100%. Seemed very different than from the Winter firing. Wasn't about salvaging the season, it was about eliminating conflict.

Nelsen was always Kevin Payne's guy, pre Lewieke. I think he gave him a chance to show his worth, but the minute there was tension between them or Nelsen and Bez the writing was on the wall

OgtheDim
05-18-2015, 01:39 PM
When do we even out in away and home games compared to last season? Hard to compare otherwise.

ag futbol
05-18-2015, 01:44 PM
And - that would mean we would need to be 3-1-1 over the next five games for Vanney's TFC to be achieving more than Nelsen's. 2-1-2 would give us seven points and we would have 17 from 14, just like Nelsen, albeit with far more losses under Vanney.
I don't think it's much of a stretch to say this team - despite its flaws - is better off than last years. We actually get goals from multiple players on a regular basis. When we get to an equal number of home and away games we'll probably have a better record than 2014 and that's really the apples to apples comparison.

Vanney vs. Nelsen is mostly a moot discussion at this point. Nobody sitting in our position would ever have Nelsen back vs. a coach with a track record. Really it's all about how much time you give Vanney and that's about it.

mowe
05-18-2015, 02:00 PM
Vanney vs. Nelsen is mostly a moot discussion at this point. Nobody sitting in our position would ever have Nelsen back vs. a coach with a track record. Really it's all about how much time you give Vanney and that's about it.
Well said.

Hamilton_Red
05-19-2015, 12:41 AM
The first two home games have been pretty shit. This team is not out of the woods by a long way. We are not in last place because we spent $25+ million on three DP's.

Shakes McQueen
05-19-2015, 04:01 AM
Objectively, I'd say Vanney is probably on increasingly thin ice with the management - Bez needs someone to hold accountable, lest the focus turn to him; and MLSE want to see some return on that gigantic expenditure of money quickly. Both of those factors conspire to suggest that Vanney probably has very little rope, much like Nelson did. Coaches are easy to replace, and an easy focus for blame - all of this is true, regardless of my (or your) personal feelings.

The team isn't completely off-the-deep-end, irredeemably terrible or anything, but I suspect MLSE wanted more than "hovering around mediocre" after this many games.

Subjectively? I don't know, man. How many more coaches do we burn through, before we try something radical like giving one a couple of full seasons to assert themselves? I'm pretty sure TFC has literally gone through more coaches than it has seasons of existence. The players have also been churned through the turnstile more times than I can count. We've seen teams find success with a slate of expensive DPs, and we've seen teams find success "on the cheap". One thing those teams tend to have in common, is not firing their manager every 8 months.

And I say that as someone who is absolutely not sure if Vanney is the right guy for the job, but just... man. Really? Another one?

Nodoubtguy
05-19-2015, 08:48 AM
And I say that as someone who is absolutely not sure if Vanney is the right guy for the job, but just... man. Really? Another one?

This is it right here for me. Do I love Vanney, nope.....not by any means. But coach #10? ugh.

At one point we have to stick with something and at least let it ride for a bit.

jabbronies
05-19-2015, 09:39 AM
I don't think it's much of a stretch to say this team - despite its flaws - is better off than last years. We actually get goals from multiple players on a regular basis. When we get to an equal number of home and away games we'll probably have a better record than 2014 and that's really the apples to apples comparison.

Vanney vs. Nelsen is mostly a moot discussion at this point. Nobody sitting in our position would ever have Nelsen back vs. a coach with a track record. Really it's all about how much time you give Vanney and that's about it.

End of the season is what he should get. It's what Nelsen should've gotten.
That's the only way to get an accurate idea of what he is capable of.

The issue this team has is leadership on the pitch. It's clear IMO - that missing a guy like Caldwell is the major part of our defensive problems. Guys are looking lazy and disorganized back there. people are occupying space and leaving players wide open in the box. This is how we are getting scored on. This is how we are losing games.

I've been saying this for 2 seasons now - we need a replacement Caldwell. Someone who can organize the defense. This isn't something Perquis can do and we shouldn't let him try and learn it on the job either. You don't just learn how to do it at 31 years of age. We need someone who has been doing it for years and can come in here and do that for us.

This isn't about getting rid of Perquis, he's a good player - it's about getting a Caldwell replacement - someone who is healthy and younger and will last a few more years.

You can bitch and complain about Vanney all you want - but in a game - players turn off - Vanney can't always re-activate them from the bench. That's why you have on-field leaders. Guys who are right beside the lazy ones who will scream at them to wake the fuck up. That's their job, and right now, no one is leading the TFC defense.

Ultra & Proud
05-19-2015, 10:25 AM
Now we have to learn how to win at home and do it without Jozy.

Not looking good.

trane
05-19-2015, 10:41 AM
I do not get the logic of given an completely unproven coach more time, what makes anyone think that he will get good enough??? Has he not had the team for some 30 games and the team is more or less the same? what am I missing? What does anyone see in Vanney to believe that he will get better???


We have been shit, in large part not because we have had 10 coaches, but because most of our hiring of coaches have been underwhelming to say the least.

TheGoodson
05-19-2015, 10:45 AM
I do not get the logic of given an completely unproven coach more time, what makes anyone think that he will get good enough??? Has he not had the team for some 30 games and the team is more or less the same? what am I missing? What does anyone see in Vanney to believe that he will get better???


We have been shit, in large part not because we have had 10 coaches, but because most of our hiring of coaches have been underwhelming to say the least.

The reason I think the majority are willing to give Vanney the balance of the season is that TFC does not have a proven track record of hiring the right guy...

Trying to find the right coach is an off season thing not mid season move IMO. Unless someone is available which will be after European season is finished and even that is a risky situation

pdubs
05-19-2015, 11:31 AM
I do not get the logic of given an completely unproven coach more time, what makes anyone think that he will get good enough??? Has he not had the team for some 30 games and the team is more or less the same? what am I missing? What does anyone see in Vanney to believe that he will get better???


We have been shit, in large part not because we have had 10 coaches, but because most of our hiring of coaches have been underwhelming to say the least.

Line up an experienced coach with a track record (whether in MLS or Europe) and I agree. They need to make the case that this new manager has a track record of winning (with a budget preferably) at a level at least equal to MLS, else otherwise what is the point? We will just continue to spin the wheels. Vanney may be inexperience but now he has some experience.

Unless we have that guy lined up via $$$ then letting Vanney have the season might be the best course. If we don't make the playoffs with the advantages this division allows us then he will be gone, probably Bez too. I think for Bez we need to see how creative he can get during this summer transfer window.

Auzzy
05-19-2015, 11:39 AM
The logic of not canning Vanney anytime soon: who the heck is supposed to find, select & hire a new coach now?

Bez? I think he has excellent knowledge of MLS roster rules; decent knowledge of North American players; he's learning about international players. I don't think he has the stature or experience to find & hire a top-notch coach. I think he would tend to hire another learn-on-the-job guy that would not threaten Bez himself.

Is Leiweke supposed to find & hire a new coach, with one foot out the door? I would rather not. Maybe MLSE or the tri-headed ownership monster? Yeah no.

Be careful what you wish for. If Vanney is fired soon, this is what you will probably end up with, in order of likelihood:

- Robin Fraser. That's been a common TFC path, hiring the replacement in advance. No thanks. No major or proven upgrade to Vanney. Not worth upsetting the apple cart for, shortly before TFC & MLSE management will change. With Fraser in charge, we might as well already sticky the "Fraser Deathwatch Thread" for May 2016 at the latest.

- Ask MLS head office for some currently out-of-work MLS re-tread project: no thanks.

- Mike Petke: not a bad choice. Many NY supporters were sad to see him go -- at least at the end. Not really a proven choice either though. Partway through his tenure I remember there were more debates about Petke, from supporters and journalists. Many people were not convinced by him. In any case, after Petke was recently sacked by NYRB under questionable circumstances, it would be better for both him & us if he is hired by a stable management & ownership group, not by the shaky setup we currently have in place.

- After the Dutch experiment, maybe some other exotic escapade? Italian? Latvian? Who knows? I'm not principally opposed, but for anything new like that, we definitely need a rock-solid upper management team in place first, that has the knowledge & backbone to both start that up correctly, and to see it through the occasional bad times.

I'm not convinced about Vanney either. I know that it would be bad if TFC doesn't make the playoffs; or even just slithers through the season and barely makes it to the post-season. What would be even worse though: if TFC hires another unconvincing coach partway into the season; or even a decent coach but without stable & supporting upper management in place. We would rotate through another 15 or more players; blow some more allo-cash, draft picks, etc. in a frantic gamble to make the playoffs; maybe squeak into the playoffs or not. The new MLSE soccer president comes in a few months, watches for a while, then pulls the plug again approx. a year from now, in favour of his own candidate. We get our 11th coach, another 15 players churned through the roster, and more trading of long-term assets for short-term scrambles.

pdubs
05-19-2015, 11:43 AM
^Petke is interesting. Certainly entertain the idea especially with his Supporters Shield win. Even wit some of his success not sure how much separates him from Vanney.

Shakes McQueen
05-19-2015, 03:29 PM
I do not get the logic of given an completely unproven coach more time, what makes anyone think that he will get good enough??? Has he not had the team for some 30 games and the team is more or less the same? what am I missing? What does anyone see in Vanney to believe that he will get better???


We have been shit, in large part not because we have had 10 coaches, but because most of our hiring of coaches have been underwhelming to say the least.

I'm not specifically arguing for any course of action - I'm expressing exasperation at the idea that firing ANOTHER coach with less than a full season's worth of games on the job, might be the "solution" here.

Ultra & Proud
05-19-2015, 06:42 PM
The logic of not canning Vanney anytime soon: who the heck is supposed to find, select & hire a new coach now?
If they just want an experienced manager that has no MLS experience then the upcoming weeks would be the time to do it. Some will be looking for opportunities and if Tim L and the MLSE crew want to go splash some bucks around and start flying families over to look at condos then who knows who you could get.

It's almost time to stop the MLS experienced manager talk because almost everyone only wants two guys who qualify for this and neither will be coming here.

Ultra & Proud
05-19-2015, 06:47 PM
And I am still going to hold off on my Anti-Vanney stuff for a bit. These next two home games will be very important for Vanney. Jozy or no Jozy, if we stink the joint out the next two games then there will have to be some hard questions being asked.

But as seen on the weekend, I wouldn't be surprised if Bradley puts the team on his back for a few matches as he does seem to support Vanney and the timing is good for him to pick up his form with the Gold Cup looming.

trane
05-21-2015, 07:46 AM
Well if Vanney does not get wins now that we will be home for a while, we will once again face a massive up hill battle to make the playoffs. So I hope that he does get it together. I will say that the last stretch has been somewhat better.

Canary10
05-25-2015, 02:01 PM
On the day we're back in the Premiership, it's hard not to look at what Norwich has done in comparison to TFC. We were doing ok, not far off the promotion/playoff spots when our manager was fired mid way through the year. Brought in a relatively inexperienced, 33 year old to take over the team in Alex Neil. He took 49 points from the last 22 games. We finished third and won the playoff final. Back in the Prem.

If TFC are going the young, inexperienced manager route, I don't know why we can't get one who immediately proves his mettle the way Neil has.

reggie
05-25-2015, 02:08 PM
congratz...big day for you.

gmacpheetfc
05-25-2015, 02:25 PM
On the day we're back in the Premiership, it's hard not to look at what Norwich has done in comparison to TFC. We were doing ok, not far off the promotion/playoff spots when our manager was fired mid way through the year. Brought in a relatively inexperienced, 33 year old to take over the team in Alex Neil. He took 49 points from the last 22 games. We finished third and won the playoff final. Back in the Prem.

If TFC are going the young, inexperienced manager route, I don't know why we can't get one who immediately proves his mettle the way Neil has.

Mate you have a premier league team he's simply come in and just said go out there and have it lads.

Canary10
05-25-2015, 02:28 PM
Mate you have a premier league team he's simply come in and just said go out there and have it lads.

We were sliding when he came in. Turned it around. Vanney should be able to do the same with the team at his disposal.

Ultra & Proud
05-25-2015, 02:31 PM
We were sliding when he came in. Turned it around. Vanney should be able to do the same with the team at his disposal.
I am not on the Vanney bandwagon at all but he's done a few things in the past stretch that prove that he isn't a complete idiot. He still has his moments as I question a lot of his subs and the timing of them but he did adjust the tactics to cover the back and the midfield is working well now. Of course it can and probably will fall to shit but for now, he earned the chance to stay (for now).

barticusz
05-25-2015, 02:40 PM
I am not on the Vanney bandwagon at all but he's done a few things in the past stretch that prove that he isn't a complete idiot. He still has his moments as I question a lot of his subs and the timing of them but he did adjust the tactics to cover the back and the midfield is working well now. Of course it can and probably will fall to shit but for now, he earned the chance to stay (for now).

So basically what some of us have been saying all along? Give him an opportunity to actually figure things out rather than canning him because we have a losing record and have played only 2 homes games out of 10 so far? Shocking.

Canary10
05-25-2015, 02:44 PM
I don't think bringing in an inexperienced coach means you have to wait for him to figure it out before you get results. That's all I'm saying.

Ultra & Proud
05-25-2015, 02:53 PM
So basically what some of us have been saying all along? Give him an opportunity to actually figure things out rather than canning him because we have a losing record and have played only 2 homes games out of 10 so far? Shocking.
If he was till making the bone headed decisions that he did up until a few weeks ago then I wouldn't be changing my tune at all. I still think he's the wrong guy and I'd replace him as soon as a better option became available. Problem is that there aren't a lot of really better ones available right now and if he can keep the team playing at this level minimum, then I'd ride him out until the new president sacks him for his own guy.

barticusz
05-25-2015, 02:56 PM
I agree with you. Based on what Nelson's record was at the time I thought it was a terrible move to get rid of him. It was only made worse by bringing in a guy with just as little experience.

Having said that, I like what Vanney has done this year. He's learning on the job yes, but he's done quite well considering the injuries and schedule. Like Nelson before, I want this team to finally keep their manager for at least 2 years. Lets see what they can do, and what this team can do with some consistency.

cmonyoureds
05-26-2015, 10:35 AM
Ancelotti has the summer off, indefinitely it turns out, and a Canadian connection.

Just throwing it out there...........not seriously............but MLSE do have bags of $$$$

anto7
06-06-2015, 08:25 PM
Crickets

Alonso
06-06-2015, 08:37 PM
Crickets


LOL .... the silence is deafening

anto7
06-06-2015, 08:52 PM
LOL .... the silence is deafening

Pretty sure someone will come in here shortly and say he still needs to be fired ��

Lennon
06-06-2015, 09:28 PM
I wish I lol'ed at this thread earlier. We were like 80%+ to make the playoffs when it was started lol.

Cashcleaner
06-06-2015, 09:34 PM
http://i.imgur.com/SwNIaNi.gif

Red CB Toronto
06-06-2015, 10:05 PM
Dam not even sure the title is relevant at this point, utting Jozy on even just 10 min was genius, a great coaching decision.

Blixa
06-06-2015, 11:03 PM
I'll be happy to eat my words.

Shakes McQueen
06-06-2015, 11:13 PM
Still a lot of season to go, but this should hopefully put off the usual deconstruction of who needs to lose their job for a while, at least.

Our place in the standings is pretty comfortable right now - particularly considering we have anywhere from two to four games in hand on the teams around us.

barticusz
06-07-2015, 01:34 AM
Too early to say I told you so.. over and over and over and over again? Nah.. I told you so. Close this down.

billyfly
06-07-2015, 08:17 AM
Too early to say I told you so.. over and over and over and over again? Nah.. I told you so. Close this down.

Why not merge it with "Gio best player in league thread" as i believe both are related.

ensco
06-07-2015, 08:30 AM
Why not merge it with "Gio best player in league thread" as i believe both are related.

Thank you

OgtheDim
06-07-2015, 08:39 AM
I think we are playing really well + have Giovinco firing on all cylinders.

Without him, its a different mindset as to who to get the ball to, but we are still good enough within MLS to come out with strong results.

barticusz
06-07-2015, 09:45 AM
I think we are playing really well + have Giovinco firing on all cylinders.

Without him, its a different mindset as to who to get the ball to, but we are still good enough within MLS to come out with strong results.

This. The team has been playing great for the last couple months. Giovinco is a stud but the team is doing great overall.

notthesun
06-07-2015, 10:27 AM
Giovinco is earning us the points but Vanney deserves massive credit for re-working the midfield. The double pivot wasn't working and he recognized it - now Cheyrou is the perfect deep-lying playmaker and Bradley is galloping through the middle. And he's got his two wingers focused on maintaining possession and looking for passes inside to get Giovinco more touches (last I checked we were the lowest or second-lowest crossing team in the league - and it's working).

He's also gotten more than something out of Morgan who looked like he was dead in the water coming into this season. And the backline in general has looked very solid recently (he's learned his lesson on high lines).

Absolutely no way we look this good with Nelsen or Winter or any other stubborn coach we've had who's been set in their ways. Like I said in the match thread, I'm happy to admit I think I was dead wrong about him.

Oldtimer
06-07-2015, 12:17 PM
Why not merge it with "Gio best player in league thread" as i believe both are related. Well said!

Initial B
06-07-2015, 12:28 PM
Should the title of the thread be renamed "Vanney: The Kreis Chrysalis 2"?

ManUtd4ever
06-07-2015, 12:32 PM
Giovinco is earning us the points but Vanney deserves massive credit for re-working the midfield. The double pivot wasn't working and he recognized it - now Cheyrou is the perfect deep-lying playmaker and Bradley is galloping through the middle. And he's got his two wingers focused on maintaining possession and looking for passes inside to get Giovinco more touches (last I checked we were the lowest or second-lowest crossing team in the league - and it's working).

He's also gotten more than something out of Morgan who looked like he was dead in the water coming into this season. And the backline in general has looked very solid recently (he's learned his lesson on high lines).

Absolutely no way we look this good with Nelsen or Winter or any other stubborn coach we've had who's been set in their ways. Like I said in the match thread, I'm happy to admit I think I was dead wrong about him.

Well said.

Alonso
06-07-2015, 12:37 PM
Giovinco is earning us the points but Vanney deserves massive credit for re-working the midfield. The double pivot wasn't working and he recognized it - now Cheyrou is the perfect deep-lying playmaker and Bradley is galloping through the middle. And he's got his two wingers focused on maintaining possession and looking for passes inside to get Giovinco more touches (last I checked we were the lowest or second-lowest crossing team in the league - and it's working).

He's also gotten more than something out of Morgan who looked like he was dead in the water coming into this season. And the backline in general has looked very solid recently (he's learned his lesson on high lines).

Absolutely no way we look this good with Nelsen or Winter or any other stubborn coach we've had who's been set in their ways. Like I said in the match thread, I'm happy to admit I think I was dead wrong about him.

I agree with everything that you've written here.

This team should be left alone (for the most part, key pieces especially, coach included) for a few years to ferment.

Their is great potential here, including the young up and coming players.

We are set up for a good 5 years with this teams DP contracts and great young up and coming players.

PopePouri
06-07-2015, 12:43 PM
Should the title of the thread be renamed "Vanney: The Kreis Chrysalis 2"?

The second coming of Kreis.

anto7
06-07-2015, 12:45 PM
Crickets

Little did I know that my "Crickets" comment that I made last night would trigger so many positive responses in this thread. So refreshing not to have to read the constant negativity all the time. Not that some of it is not warranted at times but let's enjoy these good times for now while we can.....we have waited a long time for this

mistercorporate
06-07-2015, 02:40 PM
I agree with everything that you've written here.

This team should be left alone (for the most part, key pieces especially, coach included) for a few years to ferment.

Their is great potential here, including the young up and coming players.

We are set up for a good 5 years with this teams DP contracts and great young up and coming players.

The best part of all this is, once those 5 years pass, we should have more quality players coming up from our Academy system to fill in for any retiring players...

mistercorporate
06-07-2015, 02:42 PM
I think this thread should get locked, we can save our energies for more relevant threads :P Vanney's position is now officially secure (for this season at the least), moving on!

Initial B
06-07-2015, 10:18 PM
I think this thread should get locked, we can save our energies for more relevant threads :P Vanney's position is now officially secure (for this season at the least), moving on!
I'd wait until the end of August before declaring his position is secure. All it will take is an injury to Giovinco and a bad run of form to bring out the pitchforks. Regardless, I still believe we should stick with him until mid 2016 at least.

Brooker
06-08-2015, 01:53 AM
Can everyone in here please knock on wood.

Ivy
06-08-2015, 02:31 AM
3rd isn't good enough... We spent 100million and renovated our stadium. We should be first overall, and have games in hand.
BS.

Oldtimer
06-08-2015, 07:28 AM
I'd wait until the end of August before declaring his position is secure. All it will take is an injury to Giovinco and a bad run of form to bring out the pitchforks. Regardless, I still believe we should stick with him until mid 2016 at least.

Why would Giovinco's status or our winning record (when it's due to the players) affect whether or not Vanney is a good coach? The two are totally separate. I am starting to see pretty good tactical adjustments on Vanney's part. Undoubtedly experience, plus the quality of the staff around him for him to learn from is starting to show some benefit. He had some pretty astute moves against DC, with the Altidore substitution once DC had tired legs being tactically brilliant and likely led to the win.

ensco
06-08-2015, 09:10 AM
Suggest we all save ourselves 390 pages and just pick it up from this thread...

http://realcavsfans.com/community/index.php?threads/david-blatt-is-a-first-time-nba-finals-coach.44309/

Oldtimer
06-08-2015, 09:33 AM
Suggest we all save ourselves 390 pages and just pick it up from this thread...

http://realcavsfans.com/community/index.php?threads/david-blatt-is-a-first-time-nba-finals-coach.44309/

Well for Real fun, you could see this RSL thread from 2007 on Kreis:

http://forums.bigsoccer.com/threads/how-do-you-explain-checketts-love-affair-with-jason-kreis.610920/


I just don't like the fact that he's not a proven coach. What we need right now is someone who has experience laying out their game plan and getting players to buy into it (it could be argued that JK is doing that). Canning Ellinger was the right thing to do, but we should have replaced him with someone with more experience and a history of managing winning sides. Dumping JK into the head coaching role had a very amateurish/desperate feel to it, and that's not something our team really needed this year.

It would have been better to bring in someone who has a better coaching resume and let Jason learn from them as an assistant if he was going to someday be handed the reigns.

Klinnsman would have been a better choice http://forums.bigsoccer.com/styles/default/xenforo/clear.png but we'll live with what we have.


I'm just curious what you don't like about Kreis. Yeah, he hasn't won much but he took over a team in shambles and it did improve, some, under him.

I'm not saying he's gonna be a great coach, but I think it's too early to write him off. You guys are there, though, so you have obviously different insight, hence my question.


RSL PPG under John Ellinger = 0.897
RSL PPG under Jason Kreis = 0.880

RSL % of games won under John Ellinger = 22
RSL % of games won under Jason Kreis = 20

RSL % of games with at least a draw under John Ellinger = 46
RSL % of games with at least a draw under Jason Kreis = 48

Or my favourite...


everyone here should be on their knees praying that kreis does not suck total ass in his second season. i hate coaching revolving doors, but i refuse to put up with the same old average crap. if kreis starts off next year like ellinger did his second season, start looking for the fire kreis threads from me. he hasnt proven much yet, hopefully he can prove me wrong and become a decent coach. i hate to say it, but im betting against him.

doesn't sound too different from us, does it?

ensco
06-08-2015, 09:44 AM
Oldtimer, you love the Kreis analogy, but it's just one data point, and not very relevant - totally different mgmt setup, and a long time ago now

I agree that Vanney should be given a year, and I said that lots wanted him gone.

Areathrasher
06-08-2015, 09:50 AM
There was/is a "Fire Jim Curtin" thread in the Philly section on Big Soccer too.

They are doing ok now...

Oldtimer
06-08-2015, 10:14 AM
Oldtimer, you love the Kreis analogy, but it's just one data point, and not very relevant - totally different mgmt setup, and a long time ago now

I agree that Vanney should be given a year, and I said that lots wanted him gone.

It's more the supporter attitudes that I was pointing out, they are quite funny as they mirror us so well! I have no idea how good Vanney will turn out. He seems to be tactically-minded and willing to learn. I like the technical way the team is playing right now. Those are all good attributes. Just like with the "Deathwatch" statement, calling him Kreis 2.0 is wayyyy too early at this point.


There was/is a "Fire Jim Curtin" thread in the Philly section on Big Soccer too.

They are doing ok now...

Another good analogy. Supporters tend to be very impatient. When management mirrors that and fires the coach every year, you end up like NY were for many years, going on-and-on without ever winning anything.

Ossington Mental Youth
06-08-2015, 11:30 AM
Ive always called for him to stay for at least this season. That being said i understand why people wanted him gone (8 years of garbage and mismanagement). My biggest thing was not so much that they wanted to rush him out the door but that a) they had no reasonable potential replacement and b)hated the fact that we had fired so many coaches in the past but wanted to do the same here. Super happy to see him stay, its still to early to call him a success but he has done well.

trane
06-10-2015, 02:54 PM
Vanney seems to have put it together, great, but still does not mean that with the start of the season, we should not have been looking around for a proven coach, as the signs were not positive until this run started. Clearly now he has earned an opportunity, but lets face it a stretch of horrible games and that picture changes. It is the nature of the job.