The Vanney Era Deathwatch Thread

[ryan]

Just about everything NYCFC has done so far is fucking dumb.

Vanney hasn't moved the meter for me. At times he looked like he was figuring some things out, others he looked lost. Essentially looked the part of a newbie. Will he take enough steps forward to correct the issues and make us a threat? I'm not so sure with the course of the season we just saw. Kries wouldn't bother me one bit.

[Ossington Mental Youth]

If that's your criteria then we can never say the "majority wants, etc." on here. In fact, we can't even assume that TFC fans want to win. Honestly, I don't know why this became such a big thing. So let's just say that some people want him gone. Not very descriptive of the mood that's out there, though.

Wasnt meant as a personal attack, just resent the stance that ALL TFC supporters want Vanney gone.

[OgtheDim]

Because this TFC roster cannot play the way Kreis normally plays.
....

But if you can do it in Football Manager..... :)

Kreis in would mean probably a 4th-7th place finish next season as we retool and then consistent top 3. And a lot of complaints about adjustments.

It should be noted that NYCFC was a bad defence this season to; some of that was due to Man City parachuting in players just not ready to do the effort needed to deal with players running at them from strange angles. Some of it was the dinky field. Some of that was Kreis trying to mandate his approach to defence on a first year team - they would have been better next season under him for sure.

[Oldtimer]

I don't want Vanney gone, and apart from a few very vocal supporters, I haven't heard anything from anyone or read much in the papers. So I think the idea that "everyone" wants him gone is based on a very small sample that's not representative.

However the chance to take advantage of NYCFC's stupidity and nab Kreis is too good to pass up. Roll out the MLSE money truck!

FWIW, I disagree with Yohan, not many adjustments are needed to play Kreis's style, Vanney was copying Kreis anyways.

[Yohan]

FWIW, I disagree with Yohan, not many adjustments are needed to play Kreis's style, Vanney was copying Kreis anyways.
we don't have the players that can play Kreis's style

[FRANKIE65]

I gave Vanney the benefit of the doubt for much of the season. Scratched my head quite a few times over some questionable line up changes, but, the squad always seemed to bounce back. The last three games sealed his fate for me. Not quick enough to adapt/change style...subs way too late in the game. Again, poor line up choices.
If Kreis is interested SIGN HIM!!!!

[Super]

Wasnt meant as a personal attack, just resent the stance that ALL TFC supporters want Vanney gone.

The majority. Easily. I can find you many threads (including this one) where the majority of people speak out against Vanney.

[Super]

I don't want Vanney gone, and apart from a few very vocal supporters, I haven't heard anything from anyone or read much in the papers. So I think the idea that "everyone" wants him gone is based on a very small sample that's not representative.

However the chance to take advantage of NYCFC's stupidity and nab Kreis is too good to pass up. Roll out the MLSE money truck!

FWIW, I disagree with Yohan, not many adjustments are needed to play Kreis's style, Vanney was copying Kreis anyways.

I like to read user comments when online (articles, twitter stuff, etc.) and it's been overwhelmingly against Vanney - but that's besides the point. If you put up Vanney's credentials/history and compare it with Kreis then I hope most people can see the logic in making the change. If possible. Not sure if he even wants to come here. (His phone will be ringing all day long).

[Oldtimer]

The majority. Easily. I can find you many threads (including this one) where the majority of people speak out against Vanney. This thread, or even this board doesn't even represent the typical TFC supporter, or even the typical RPB.

[Oldtimer]

I like to read user comments when online (articles, twitter stuff, etc.) and it's been overwhelmingly against Vanney - but that's besides the point. If you put up Vanney's credentials/history and compare it with Kreis then I hope most people can see the logic in making the change. If possible. Not sure if he even wants to come here. (His phone will be ringing all day long).

Not your average person. The average fan doesn't tweet on TFC'S coach, they don't even know his name. They probably have heard of Giovinco though. :-)

[Ossington Mental Youth]

The majority. Easily. I can find you many threads (including this one) where the majority of people speak out against Vanney.

Ill reiterate that this forum hardly represents the majority of supporters.
Youre entitled to your opinion tho.

[Ossington Mental Youth]

This thread, or even this board doesn't even represent the typical TFC supporter, or even the typical RPB.

yep this

[Super]

This thread, or even this board doesn't even represent the typical TFC supporter, or even the typical RPB.

No, fair enough. There are plenty of people who follow the team from a bit more of a distance and aren't vocal about changes made. But I bet you they all care about winning. Kreis = much, much better coach, and with the history/results to prove it. So hopefully we smarten up and go get this guy and finally put some skills and experience to work on our team.

[Red CB Toronto]

This board when it comes to hot potato issues really represents the highly vocal minority. It can come done to really only a few people discussing things in circles. In reality RPB as a whole is a pretty small percentage of all those who buy TFC tickets but as we all know anyone here has an exetremly heightened interet in the team but in no way represents the majority of all all those who follow the team to any extent.

[jazzy]

how much worse could it have been to play Ashtone Morgan IN POSITION and Justin Morrow IN POSITION all season? Feel like the obvious was NEVER tried this past year.

Bout time .....ya why would we want speed out wide constantly making crosses towards Gio...but Morrow displaced Morgan ....pity, I'd put him on the right

[Lennon]

One of Morrow/Morgan should be traded.

[ensco]

You know, I want Kreis and all that ... but I am not sure it'll work unless we are moving the DPs.

All these veteran Europeans, and USMNT players, they were brought in I believe because they'd make the DPs more "comfortable" than South Americans would.

Kreis will not be interested in players like Findley/Moore/Gomez/Perquis/Kantari.

[jazzy]

You know, I want Kreis and all that ... but I am not sure it'll work unless we are moving the DPs.

All these veteran Europeans, and USMNT players, they were brought in I believe because they'd make the DPs more "comfortable" than South Americans would.

Kreis will not be interested in players like Findley/Moore/Gomez/Perquis/Kantari.

not sure your right but rounds about right to me

[Super]

You know, I want Kreis and all that ... but I am not sure it'll work unless we are moving the DPs.

All these veteran Europeans, and USMNT players, they were brought in I believe because they'd make the DPs more "comfortable" than South Americans would.

Kreis will not be interested in players like Findley/Moore/Gomez/Perquis/Kantari.

I worry about this also. He might not be interested in the job, and it would take some doing to fix the mess we have on the roster, but at some point we have to stop aimlessly moving forward with rookies and try to seek the aid of someone who has actually built teams in the past and won.

[Lennon]

Kreis will not be interested in players like Findley/Moore/Gomez/Perquis/Kantari.

Good. All those guys are on terrible contracts.

Man, MLS always finds a way to screw TFC. First they give us Mo, then they give us Bez.

[Hamilton_Red]

How about firing Bez and replacing him with Kries? He would be a credible mentor to Vanney and I am sure every bit as able to recruit talent as Bez.

[Detroit_TFC]

How about firing Bez and replacing him with Kries? He would be a credible mentor to Vanney and I am sure every bit as able to recruit talent as Bez.

That's an very intriguing idea. I don't think Manning is interested at all in replacing Bez but this would be a super smart move.

[Super]

That to me is like using Kreis in the wrong position. He's a brilliant coach. Why would we hire him and then use him as GM instead while allowing a far less capable coach to run the team? But sure, if that's the only option other than replacing Vanney then yes.

[jloome]

we don't have the players that can play Kreis's style

How do you figure?

[Areathrasher]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CS3Lz3AUcAAMu-J.jpg

http://www.chicagonow.com/fire-confidential/2015/11/fire-notebook-coaching-search-update-the-wolf-and-more/
From a very reputable MLS journo

[mowe]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CS3Lz3AUcAAMu-J.jpg

http://www.chicagonow.com/fire-confidential/2015/11/fire-notebook-coaching-search-update-the-wolf-and-more/
From a very reputable MLS journo

Manning must've moved FAST. Even if it's not true, this is shaping up to be a very interesting offseason.

[OgtheDim]

The majority. Easily. I can find you many threads (including this one) where the majority of people speak out against Vanney.

Never assume the internet expresses the opinion of the masses.

[Oldtimer]

How about firing Bez and replacing him with Kries? He would be a credible mentor to Vanney and I am sure every bit as able to recruit talent as Bez.

Bez doesn't need to go. He can be the capologist and contract guy, just like Lagerway was at RSL.

[Oldtimer]

Manning must've moved FAST. Even if it's not true, this is shaping up to be a very interesting offseason.

Getting Kreis is a no-brainer. Vanney can be his assistant if Kreis wants and Vanney agrees to it.

[ensco]

Bez doesn't need to go. He can be the capologist and contract guy, just like Lagerway was at RSL.


Getting Kreis is a no-brainer. Vanney can be his assistant if Kreis wants and Vanney agrees to it.

And, the MLSE special, have the new guys inherit their key employees, and pretend they think it was their idea, rears it's head.

I could maybe, maybe see the case for Bez staying. Maybe. On principle, though, I'd rather find someone else.

[Cashcleaner]

Bez doesn't need to go. He can be the capologist and contract guy, just like Lagerway was at RSL.

Yeah, I agree. I do think that there is a danger of creating a top-heavy organization if we keep too many people on while bringing in replacements, but I think he's got a role at TFC that he does well and could be of further use to the club. Kries coming to TFC opens up so many possibilities.

[Oldtimer]

I've started a new thread on the Kreis rumour, which is separate from what happens to Vanney (although the two can be related):

http://forums.redpatchboys.ca/showthread.php?38461-Jason-Kreis-to-TFC-unconfirmed&p=1771505#post1771505

[jimiv]

Getting Kreis is a no-brainer. Vanney can be his assistant if Kreis wants and Vanney agrees to it.

...or Vanney could run the academy like he did at RSL.

[pdubs]

I wish Vanney would of had the interm tag on him. I was so shocked when Bez announced he wasn't interm but full on manager. I don't really want us to have to go through another GM hunt but if Bez can't close the deal in getting Kreis then he should be gone. He hired Vanney, didn't work out now move on, especially when a clear upgrade is looking for work.

[notthesun]

https://twitter.com/DanRiccio590/status/661560171785789440

[Areathrasher]

Hmmm thats an interesting response

[Oldtimer]

^^ Throwing Vanney under the bus.

[Super]

Never assume the internet expresses the opinion of the masses.

It expresses the opinion of the majority of people who state their views online. Do I think that's a number that's vastly different than the actual masses? No, I don't.

[pdubs]

Yep, but doing it in a good way imho. Wouldn't want him to lie but also not to explicitly state he doesn't agree with the manager. He knows their is a better manager looking for work now..

[Super]

^^ Throwing Vanney under the bus.

So the captain doesn't seem to back or believe in Vanney? Not sure how else to take his comment.

[Oldtimer]

Yep, but doing it in a good way imho. Wouldn't want him to lie but also to explicitly state he doesn't agree with the manager. He knows their is a better manager looking for work now..

Who wouldn't prefer to play under Kreis? Take the real thing rather than someone who is copying him. Plus Kreis is well known as an excellent man manager. People love to play for him.

I think Vanney was reasonable secure until the news of Kreis becoming available broke. They wouldn't bring in a foreign manager and start yet another rebuild, but if they can come to terms with Kreis it would be a huge upgrade without a need to totally blow apart the team (just a few upgrades would be needed). Unexpectedly this is becoming a real era deathwatch thread.

[Still Kicking]

Hold on here folks.....it was not a Vanney question (unless it had a context that the tweet did not convey). Bradley the captain can hardly vouch for any status quo - he is going to be just as miffed at the way the season ended as any others you can mention. But he also can't be the driver (at least in the media) for any particular change either.

He is also working under a new president of TFC, he hardly is going to go on record about preferences for change or status quo. He is simply not the person you should be asking such questions to at this point. Bradley might have had his state of TFC press conference last year, post operation. That does not mean he should be making off season decisions.

[Auzzy]

I think Bradley is actually one of the "issues" even under Kreis. As Yohan said, I believe Bradley has too much say & clout in the current setup. That's never really healthy, and it doesn't help that Bradley has not always played well enough to deserve a special role. It may be an awkward situation for player & management, and I wonder if Kreis wants to deal with that.

[ManUtd4ever]

Who wouldn't prefer to play under Kreis? Take the real thing rather than someone who is copying him. Plus Kreis is well known as an excellent man manager. People love to play for him.

I think Vanney was reasonable secure until the news of Kreis becoming available broke. They wouldn't bring in a foreign manager and start yet another rebuild, but if they can come to terms with Kreis it would be a huge upgrade without a need to totally blow apart the team (just a few upgrades would be needed). Unexpectedly this is becoming a real era deathwatch thread.

This is it in a nutshell. A change for the sake of change does not usually produce favorable results. If there were no candidates willing to join the organization that would represent a clear upgrade, keeping Vanney might be tolerable, albeit not ideal.

If Kreis is willing to work for MLSE, which is really going to be the deciding factor, the decision to hire him should be an absolute no brainer. If that requires cleaning house in the front office, then so be it.

[Still Kicking]

I think Bradley is actually one of the "issues" even under Kreis. As Yohan said, I believe Bradley has too much say & clout in the current setup. That's never really healthy, and it doesn't help that Bradley has not always played well enough to deserve a special role. It may be an awkward situation for player & management, and I wonder if Kreis wants to deal with that.

You would think Kreis, just having been tossed from the NYCFC Lampard/Pirlo/Villa tangle, would make any future coaching job conditional on having it tangle free...

[Areathrasher]

https://twitter.com/KurtLarSUN/status/661571922661019648

Another throw under the bus???

[Oldtimer]

^ pretty much.

[Auzzy]

I think this is a very tough decision for Manning. (On the poll I voted "I'm fine with either outcome. He can stay or go.") For Manning it's a case of "damned if you do, dammed if you don't."

I do believe Manning prefers stability, and he said that right away. It was a successful guiding principle for RSL. If he fires Vanney & hires Kreis, perhaps also needs to replace Bez, some people/media will scream "but you promised stability; you only joined the club a short time ago; TFC just made the playoffs for the first time; TFC has always had too much turnover, too many coaches fired, and it's one of the biggest reason they haven't had success." And they would be right, somewhat. Vanney seems to be a smart guy, and may still grow to become a great MLS coach.

Yet Vanney could not get the defensive issues sorted (tied for most goals conceded in the league); could not organize his midfield to protect a poor back line; made many other bizarre coaching & roster decisions; probably got us Kantari & Perquis which were a disaster (especially considering their salary & reputation from France); and didn't seem to be progressing consistently after more than a year of coaching TFC.



You would think Kreis, just having been tossed from the NYCFC Lampard/Pirlo/Villa tangle, would make any future coaching job conditional on having it tangle free...

I agree that Kreis would want to demand control over issues like that. Personally I've watched Bradley closely, and have often not been happy, especially since the Gold Cup I guess. Consider his salary, DP status, captain role, and the power he seems to have in the organisation -- his play often isn't good enough, and I don't see him organizing things on the field enough either.

But Bradley is still extremely popular in many quarters, and he's been a key face of the franchise. Letting him go would have more people screaming bloody murder about the lack of consistency. And I'm not sure how well Bradley would deal with a "demotion" to being just another player under Kreis, and to play the role exactly as a cog in the machine that Kreis dictates.

[Chevy]

https://twitter.com/KurtLarSUN/status/661571922661019648

Another throw under the bus???

Hopefully we stick to a formation where a physically dominant forward is able to win a few balls and/or hold the ball up for his teammates on occasion.

[Areathrasher]

The bus is busy

https://twitter.com/mitchelltierney/status/661579499050545153

[pdubs]

Like the honesty. I don't think it is throwing Vanney under the bus to say what a lot of us were thinking. Just telling it like it is. Translations are always difficult tho.

[Areathrasher]

Yea, i'm not sure if it's throwing Vanney under the bus either but the critical tone of the comments when Vanney has yet to step to the podium, just seems off to me.

[Oldtimer]

The bus is busy

https://twitter.com/mitchelltierney/status/661579499050545153

This all points to Vanney being toast (and the players knowing it). The bus is being moved forward and backward over Vanney.


Yea, i'm not sure if it's throwing Vanney under the bus either but the critical tone of the comments when Vanney has yet to step to the podium, just seems off to me.

Will Vanney actually show? Good question.

[pdubs]

Yea, i'm not sure if it's throwing Vanney under the bus either but the critical tone of the comments when Vanney has yet to step to the podium, just seems off to me.

Seems like the dressing room has decided his fate if the leaders in it "aren't commenting" or saying "set-up was all wrong". Guys on lower wages can't get away with that stuff.

Whatever Vanney says I am not that interested. Waiting for Bez aha.

[spe18]

I think we can put all rumors aside:

https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/629420294898352128/n2sWMGhH_bigger.pngKurtis Larson ‏@KurtLarSUN (https://twitter.com/KurtLarSUN) 3m3 minutes ago (https://twitter.com/KurtLarSUN/status/661582112588328960)
TFC president Bill Manning: "Greg deserves the opportunity to continue..."

[Areathrasher]

https://twitter.com/KurtLarSUN/status/661582112588328960
https://twitter.com/KurtLarSUN/status/661583073503375360

[notthesun]

Vanney is staying (on a short leash).

https://twitter.com/lauraarmy/status/661583092008796162

https://twitter.com/torontofc/status/661582348740235265

https://twitter.com/KurtLarSUN/status/661581383970611202

[Lennon]

Nooooooooo.

.. continue as Kreis' assistant? (fingers crossed)

[pdubs]

Can't see Kreis staying unemployed.

[Oldtimer]

Why can't we be great?

[pdubs]

https://twitter.com/KurtLarSUN/status/661581970640539648

Stability for stability's sake? Sounds like it to me.

[Super]

So Manning is passing on Jason Kreis who will most certainly sign with someone else. That's an opportunity wasted. When is the last time we had a chance to sign an experienced, winning, MLS coach? Never, right? Manning thinks that Vanney can fix the defense and concede "only" 45 goals next season? Sorry, Manning. Vanney conceded 1.5 per game in 2014 (reg season) and 1.7 per game in 2015 (reg season). Zero evidence that he was fixing anything. Trending opposite direction.

Oh well, that's that. Vanney continues.

[OgtheDim]

I'd like to see the Video but Manning sounds like the real deal.

[pdubs]

They decreased ticket prices right??? Oh wait..

[Super]

Why can't we be great?

Because we hand the keys over to rookies.

[pdubs]

https://twitter.com/KurtLarSUN/status/661584767234670593

That's the bar.

[Oldtimer]

So Manning is passing on Jason Kreis who will most certainly sign with someone else. That's an opportunity wasted. When is the last time we had a chance to sign an experienced, winning, MLS coach? Never, right? Manning thinks that Vanney can fix the defense and concede "only" 45 goals next season? Sorry, Manning. Vanney conceded 1.5 per game in 2014 (reg season) and 1.7 per game in 2015 (reg season). Zero evidence that he was fixing anything. Trending opposite direction.

Oh well, that's that. Vanney continues.

Kreis' NYCFC conceded just as many goals as TFC. just saying... maybe it's not the coach.

[Bobo]

Maybe Kreis didn't want a ticket to the gong show? I can only hope because this is a poor decision otherwise.

[Oldtimer]

I don't think I will easily get over TFC passing on Kreis. That's worse IMO than our playoff loss in Montreal. But maybe it's true he didn't want to work for MLSE.

[FRANKIE65]

Kreis' NYCFC conceded just as many goals as TFC. just saying... maybe it's not the coach.

Yes, but, that farce of a "football pitch" Yankee stadium is made for scoring goals.

[FRANKIE65]

But we'll have a roof....:facepalm:

[Oldtimer]

but we'll have a roof....:facepalm:


aarrrrggoooos!

[Super]

https://twitter.com/KurtLarSUN/status/661581970640539648

Stability for stability's sake? Sounds like it to me.

So what he's saying is that we made a mistake in letting Mo Johnston, Cummins, Preki, Dasovic, Winter, Mariner and Nelsen go early?

Okay then.

[Super]

Kreis' NYCFC conceded just as many goals as TFC. just saying... maybe it's not the coach.

Expansion team. And not like Orlando, Vancouver, Seattle, Portland, Montreal, etc. They had to start from scratch just like us.

But sure, you can judge him on that record. But please don't forget the 7 years he made the play-offs, the 3 times he got really close, and the 1 time he won the league. That was a team he built. I'd give him 3 years to do it here.

[Ultra & Proud]

At least I can expect another amazing season like this one next year.

[Yohan]

In typical TFC fashion, TFC makes the worse choice yet again.

Either you show that you have full confidence in Vanney, or you fire Vanney and get Kreis (or whoever).

Manning admitting that he talked to Kreis and this wishy washy stuff shows that the management doesn't have full confidence in Vanney. Basically announced that Vanney is a deadman walking. The players doesn't seem to have full confidence in him, and now the management. And 8 game road trip to start the next season.

I'm calling it now. Vanney will get fired early next season, barring some really drastic changes happen between now and March. And when Vanney gets fired, Jason kreis won't be available.

So stupid of TFC

[Oldtimer]

So what he's saying is that we made a mistake in letting Mo Johnston, Cummins, Preki, Dasovic, Winter, Mariner and Nelsen go early?

Okay then.

Time to start the Manning Era Deathwatch thread. :facepalm:

[notthesun]

https://twitter.com/JohnMolinaro/status/661587030682439682

[Super]

In typical TFC fashion, TFC makes the worse choice yet again.

Either you show that you have full confidence in Vanney, or you fire Vanney and get Kreis (or whoever).

Manning admitting that he talked to Kreis and this wishy washy stuff shows that the management doesn't have full confidence in Vanney. Basically announced that Vanney is a deadman walking. The players doesn't seem to have full confidence in him, and now the management. And 8 game road trip to start the next season.

I'm calling it now. Vanney will get fired early next season, barring some really drastic changes happen between now and March. And when Vanney gets fired, Jason kreis won't be available.

So stupid of TFC

THIS!

Manning, I'm disappointed in you. Feel free to leave with Vanney when he goes, too.

[Bobo]

Expansion team. And not like Orlando, Vancouver, Seattle, Portland, Montreal, etc. They had to start from scratch just like us.

Not to mention NYFC had their priorities all wrong in their expansion year.

There is no way to sugarcoat this decision, let's not try. Finally had a shot at a respectable coach and we'll end up with another year of that defensive horror show.


I'm calling it now. Vanney will get fired early next season, barring some really drastic changes happen between now and March. And when Vanney gets fired, Jason kreis won't be available.


At least the organization now has its fall guy for next year!



Really rethinking my season tickets now.

[Oldtimer]

"Stability" worked with Kreis (and yes, RSL supporters thought Kreis was an idiot at first), but is Vanney as good? Only time will tell. I would have gone with the proven winner.

[notthesun]

I'm on record as saying I was fine with Vanney returning. I still am. I think Vanney can improve and has the potential to do well. I think there's more pressure on Bezbatchenko right now to sign quality players, and I'm happy that Manning said he would be involved in soccer decisions.

That being said, I think I would have hired Kreis. Just too good of an opportunity to pass up. But I'm not calling next year a disaster yet.

[Steve]

I think most people are reading this the wrong way. Manning talked to Kreis, and likely offered him the job. Kreis probably decided he didn't want to be involved in TFC drama. Think about it, he was just thrown out after a year in NY. Now he's offered a job at a team that has had 9 coaches in 9 years. He probably doesn't want to be thrown out after a year AGAIN (and considering TFC's history, he's right to be a little sceptical). So yeah, he passes on our particular brand of drama and tries to find a team that will give him a few years to build success, instead of demand it on day one.

Now Manning is left with a few options. Option 1, he fires Vanney right now, continues TFC's legacy, and tries to find a better coach (and a coach willing to sign on with a team that can't seem to keep a coach for longer than a season or two). Option 2, he tries to put forward the image that TFC is going to be different going forward. We're going to give our coaches a little time to succeed, and not fire them immediately after a setback. Sure, that might mean our next season is in danger of under-performing again, but but he's trying to put himself in a situation where, when the NEXT Jason Kreis is available, he will want to come work with us.

[TheGoodson]

For Bradely, Jozy and Seba to throw Vanney under the bus with their blunt assessment of the team from defence, formation to tactics there is no way he can stay now...

I heard a rumor at halftime in Montreal Bradley and Seba had a go at Vanney and told him that the tactics and his ideas were all wrong and it was quite heated

[Super]

I'm on record as saying I was fine with Vanney returning. I still am. I think Vanney can improve and has the potential to do well. I think there's more pressure on Bezbatchenko right now to sign quality players, and I'm happy that Manning said he would be involved in soccer decisions.

That being said, I think I would have hired Kreis. Just too good of an opportunity to pass up. But I'm not calling next year a disaster yet.

I think we are likely to improve next year if Vanney can rally the troops and make them believe in him. But Kreis would no doubt have been the smart move right now. Sadly the past continues to haunt us. Because we got rid of so many coaches Manning felt like reversing that trend - instead of reversing the trend of hiring inexperience, and going with a proven winner instead. Sadly this is so TFC.

[Auzzy]

In typical TFC fashion, TFC makes the worse choice yet again.

Either you show that you have full confidence in Vanney, or you fire Vanney and get Kreis (or whoever).

Manning admitting that he talked to Kreis and this wishy washy stuff shows that the management doesn't have full confidence in Vanney. Basically announced that Vanney is a deadman walking. The players doesn't seem to have full confidence in him, and now the management. And 8 game road trip to start the next season.

I'm calling it now. Vanney will get fired early next season, barring some really drastic changes happen between now and March. And when Vanney gets fired, Jason kreis won't be available.

So stupid of TFC

Agreed. Either don't even entertain the question, pretend like it's 100% obvious that Vanney is staying, regardless of what internal discussions may have happened. Or ditch Vanney now.

Who are they going to hire as coach next May? Robin Fraser?

[Ultra & Proud]

Our defense will definitely allow over 50 goals next year. No evidence that Vanney has a game plan that can adapt to be even defensively responsible.

Going by our stars comments, I'd say bringing him back will lower morale. They know he has no clue what he's doing and you could see it as the season wound down. He was tinkering until then end and that isn't what a smart manager does especially when you have a year plus to figure out something.

[Ultra & Proud]

Who are they going to hire as coach next May? Robin Fraser?
Most likely. Then he will have a year and a half and get sacked too because he is no better.

[notthesun]

https://twitter.com/KurtLarSUN/status/661585403657359360

This is pretty interesting from Manning though. He set 3 objective goals for next season today: 8 points from first 8 road games, 45 goals or less conceded on the year, finish with over 50 points. No room for error for Vanney now.

[Areathrasher]

So many mixed messages this morning. Typical TFC shitshow.

[Ultra & Proud]

https://twitter.com/KurtLarSUN/status/661585403657359360

This is pretty interesting from Manning though. He set 3 objective goals for next season today: 8 points from first 8 road games, 45 goals or less conceded on the year, finish with over 50 points. No room for error for Vanney now.
Sounds like Vanney has one more year to ruin the current franchise.

He stays and fails, then you can expect Seba to want out.

[starter]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zo-YVqV0v4Q

[Oldtimer]

I think most people are reading this the wrong way. Manning talked to Kreis, and likely offered him the job. Kreis probably decided he didn't want to be involved in TFC drama. Think about it, he was just thrown out after a year in NY. Now he's offered a job at a team that has had 9 coaches in 9 years. He probably doesn't want to be thrown out after a year AGAIN (and considering TFC's history, he's right to be a little sceptical). So yeah, he passes on our particular brand of drama and tries to find a team that will give him a few years to build success, instead of demand it on day one.

Now Manning is left with a few options. Option 1, he fires Vanney right now, continues TFC's legacy, and tries to find a better coach (and a coach willing to sign on with a team that can't seem to keep a coach for longer than a season or two). Option 2, he tries to put forward the image that TFC is going to be different going forward. We're going to give our coaches a little time to succeed, and not fire them immediately after a setback. Sure, that might mean our next season is in danger of under-performing again, but but he's trying to put himself in a situation where, when the NEXT Jason Kreis is available, he will want to come work with us.

I think you're probably right. Manning offers Kreis the job. Kreis turns down TFC. At least future managers see that you get 2 full years.

... but losing Kreis is really hard to swallow.

[Super]

I think you're probably right. Manning offers Kreis the job. Kreis turns down TFC. At least future managers see that you get 2 full years.

... but losing Kreis is really hard to swallow.

That's an assumption. We don't know that Kreis was offered the job. Whether or not he was is a huge and important factor in rating Manning. If he didn't, then he's clearly not the man for the job. If he did, then he is. Maybe some insiders will reveal something in days to come.

[Auzzy]

At least the organization now has its fall guy for next year!

Really rethinking my season tickets now.

Exactly. After my 42% price increase, just yesterday I decided to drop my pair of season tickets. Instead I was going to share with a guy who is upset about the same price increase, and whose buddy wants out of their pair of tickets for sure. Now I'm not so sure.

[Oldtimer]

That's an assumption. We don't know that Kreis was offered the job. Whether or not he was is a huge and important factor in rating Manning. If he didn't, then he's clearly not the man for the job. If he did, then he is. Maybe some insiders will reveal something in days to come.

... or Manning didn't offer Kreis the job, but is a great judge of coaching talent, and Vanney turns out to be a great coach next year.

[Bobo]

That's an assumption. We don't know that Kreis was offered the job. Whether or not he was is a huge and important factor in rating Manning. If he didn't, then he's clearly not the man for the job. If he did, then he is. Maybe some insiders will reveal something in days to come.

Whether or not Kreis rejected the job, surely Manning could have spent a little more time looking around before confirming the decision. This was a poor decision any way I look at it, just how bad is unknown at the moment.

[Yohan]

Whether or not Kreis rejected the job, surely Manning could have spent a little more time looking around before confirming the decision. This was a poor decision any way I look at it, just how bad is unknown at the moment.

Manning was under the pressure to respond to the public and the media after the debacle at Mtl. He didn't have much time to look elsewhere.

[Super]

Whether or not Kreis rejected the job, surely Manning could have spent a little more time looking around before confirming the decision. This was a poor decision any way I look at it, just how bad is unknown at the moment.

Manning decided that stability is the key to success, not hiring a capable/experienced/successful coach. Stability is great when you have the right people in place, yes, but we have no evidence that Vanney is going to be good - only evidence that he's poor tactically, can't motivate, can't fix problems, players don't seem to trust him, etc. He had a season + 1/3rd of a season. Unfortunately Manning let us down today.

[Super]

Manning was under the pressure to respond to the public and the media after the debacle at Mtl. He didn't have much time to look elsewhere.

I just hope that it'll get out that we offered Kreis the job, but he turned it down. It's too bitter a pill to swallow that we let Kreis slip through our hands.

[Lennon]

https://twitter.com/KurtLarSUN/status/661585403657359360

This is pretty interesting from Manning though. He set 3 objective goals for next season today: 8 points from first 8 road games, 45 goals or less conceded on the year, finish with over 50 points. No room for error for Vanney now.

Setting the bar pretty low there. We should be challenging for the supporter's shield with our budget.

With Vanney being on a short leash next year expect us to give up on the Voyageurs Cup once again :facepalm:

Kreis would have taken that competition seriously.

[Super]

Kurtis Larson ‏@KurtLarSUN (https://twitter.com/KurtLarSUN) 5m5 minutes ago (https://twitter.com/KurtLarSUN/status/661597158395678720)
Vanney very non-committal on need for a new centre-back. Says all of TFC's centre-backs have positives and negatives.


Okay - now can we finally give up the ghost of believing that this guy can fix our defense?

[Super]

Kurtis LarsonVerified account‏@KurtLarSUN (https://twitter.com/KurtLarSUN)

Vanney: "I know for a fact we'll be a better defensive team next year."


Based on what? The response from the team?

[Yohan]

Setting the bar pretty low there. We should be challenging for the supporter's shield with our budget.

With Vanney being on a short leash next year expect us to give up on the Voyageurs Cup once again :facepalm:

Kreis would have taken that competition seriously.
MLS rules and past history says the amount of money you spend on players doesn't have a direct co relation to how strong your team is.

[notthesun]

If Kreis was offered the job but turned it down, why would Manning even mention speaking with Kreis?

I think he probably reached out to Kreis to see if there was interest, then whatever the response from Kreis decided to keep Vanney.

[starter]

Kurtis LarsonVerified account‏@KurtLarSUN (https://twitter.com/KurtLarSUN)

Vanney: "I know for a fact we'll be a better defensive team next year."


Based on what? The response from the team?

Perhaps Nelsen is coming back?

[Super]

I just love how Manning felt that the reason why we have been shit since day one is because we never gave a coach more than 2 years to succeed. Sure, that's exactly the problem. We should have definitely given Mo Johnston, Cummins, Preki, Dasovic, Winter, Mariner and Nelsen more time. Had nothing to do with the fact that they were inexperienced and not right for the job - just like Vanney. /Sarcasm

[Chevy]

Perhaps Nelsen is coming back?

Well, having him at CB would definitely be an upgrade. :)

[starter]

A question, is this now Manning's job to hire/fire coaches, or is it still in little Tim's domain?

[Ultra & Proud]

I just love how Manning felt that the reason why we have been shit since day one is because we never gave a coach more than 2 years to succeed. Sure, that's exactly the problem. We should have definitely given Mo Johnston, Cummins, Preki, Dasovic, Winter, Mariner and Nelsen more time. Had nothing to do with the fact that they were inexperienced and not right for the job - just like Vanney. /Sarcasm
Well it is a common perception around the league that this is the exact reason we are shit. The more correct perception is to take a look at that list of ex-managers and see who went on to do anything of note afterward. Most of them are like our former players from those eras; selling condos or operating motels but nothing more to with football than watching it on TV.

[Ultra & Proud]

A question, is this now Manning's job to hire/fire coaches, or is it still in little Tim's domain?
Not Bez anymore. This hiring is probably going to be a lot like Shapiro on the Jays and Bez will be back to position more like he had when Payne was here.

[Super]

Well it is a common perception around the league that this is the exact reason we are shit. The more correct perception is to take a look at that list of ex-managers and see who went on to do anything of note afterward. Most of them are like our former players from those eras; selling condos or operating motels but nothing more to with football than watching it on TV.

Exactly. Unlike former TFC players who go on to win championships, our former managers go on to, well, not coach. I don't think any of the former TFC managers are currently coaching. Even Carver, who quit, didn't get fired.

[starter]

Exactly. Unlike former TFC players who go on to win championships, our former managers go on to, well, not coach. I don't think any of the former TFC managers are currently coaching. Even Carver, who quit, didn't get fired.

I think Winter is managing Netherlands national under-19 football team.

[Super]

I think Winter is managing Netherlands national under-19 football team.

That's true. But not a top flight club team. I should have made that clear. My point is that if we feel that our choices of coaches are any good, then why are other clubs not interested? If stability is our only problem, and not the quality of the coaches, then surely one of them would be at a club in a top division somewhere right now. At least one. But no.

Good managers get fired all the time, but they don't just fall off the map.

[ManUtd4ever]

Reading between the lines, I think Manning put out a feeler last night, and Kreis politely turned him down. Today, we get the public vote of confidence in Vanney.

[Yohan]

Reading between the lines, I think Manning put out a feeler last night, and Kreis politely turned him down. Today, we get the public vote of confidence in Vanney.

if that's suppose to be a vote of confidence, then Manning needs lessons from a PR specialist because it did not sound like a vote of confidence at all

[Ultra & Proud]

if that's suppose to be a vote of confidence, then Manning needs lessons from a PR specialist because it did not sound like a vote of confidence at all
I think he knew what he was doing. It's a semi vote of confidence with a hefty dose of pressure piled on top.

[billyfly]

I was there today at the grounds. Vanney seemed pretty relaxed before his time in front of the mic.

[Super]

I was there today at the grounds. Vanney seemed pretty relaxed before his time in front of the mic.

The word "stability" saved him.

[Yohan]

I think he knew what he was doing. It's a semi vote of confidence with a hefty dose of pressure piled on top.

yeah. it's the same kind of vote of confidence English league managers get before they get the sack after the next game

[Auzzy]

I think most people are reading this the wrong way. Manning talked to Kreis, and likely offered him the job. Kreis probably decided he didn't want to be involved in TFC drama. Think about it, he was just thrown out after a year in NY. Now he's offered a job at a team that has had 9 coaches in 9 years. He probably doesn't want to be thrown out after a year AGAIN (and considering TFC's history, he's right to be a little sceptical). So yeah, he passes on our particular brand of drama and tries to find a team that will give him a few years to build success, instead of demand it on day one.

Now Manning is left with a few options. Option 1, he fires Vanney right now, continues TFC's legacy, and tries to find a better coach (and a coach willing to sign on with a team that can't seem to keep a coach for longer than a season or two). Option 2, he tries to put forward the image that TFC is going to be different going forward. We're going to give our coaches a little time to succeed, and not fire them immediately after a setback. Sure, that might mean our next season is in danger of under-performing again, but but he's trying to put himself in a situation where, when the NEXT Jason Kreis is available, he will want to come work with us.


I think you're probably right. Manning offers Kreis the job. Kreis turns down TFC. At least future managers see that you get 2 full years.

... but losing Kreis is really hard to swallow.


If Kreis was offered the job but turned it down, why would Manning even mention speaking with Kreis?

I think he probably reached out to Kreis to see if there was interest, then whatever the response from Kreis decided to keep Vanney.

I cannot think of any sensible reason for Manning to mention that he spoke with Kreis. If Kreis turned TFC down, it makes TFC look bad. If Manning didn't offer the job, why even mention it. In either case, it leaves everyone guessing, and undermines Vanney: either support him 100%; or ditch him when that is no longer the case.

Plus if they hire a new coach 6 months from now, he will forever be compared with Kreis, especially as I expect Kreis will do a good job with whatever team hires him.

[Auzzy]

Manning was under the pressure to respond to the public and the media after the debacle at Mtl. He didn't have much time to look elsewhere.

Vanney's problems didn't just surface during the last two games in Montreal. Defensive problems & all the bizarre decisions Vanney made were obvious for most of the season. I would hope that Manning didn't just start looking at options after the Montreal games.

[Yohan]

Vanney's problems didn't just surface during the last two games in Montreal. Defensive problems & all the bizarre decisions Vanney made were obvious for most of the season. I would hope that Manning didn't just start looking at options after the Montreal games.

to be fair to Manning, he's a recent hire and still getting his feet wet at TFC FO. probably didn't expect the team to suck so back last few weeks, considering the run TFC was on just prior to

[Super]

to be fair to Manning, he's a recent hire and still getting his feet wet at TFC FO. probably didn't expect the team to suck so back last few weeks, considering the run TFC was on just prior to

That may be true, but we hired him to make tough calls in tough situations like this one. He decided to throw his support behind Vanney, and that may come back to haunt him at a later date. No one in their right mind would have objected to hiring the first proper experienced AND successful coach in the clubs history. Who could criticize that? Most clubs would take the guy, probably even some European ones.

[notthesun]

All the interviews are up on TFC's Youtube page: https://www.youtube.com/user/torontofc/videos

[Ultra & Proud]

Long live the Deathwatch!

[OgtheDim]

I like the targets - we had only one given this season and although we met it, none of us are happy.

If Vanney doesn't get this team improved before the first home game, he's gone.

[pdubs]

Kurtis Larson ‏@KurtLarSUN (https://twitter.com/KurtLarSUN) 5m5 minutes ago (https://twitter.com/KurtLarSUN/status/661597158395678720)
Vanney very non-committal on need for a new centre-back. Says all of TFC's centre-backs have positives and negatives.


Okay - now can we finally give up the ghost of believing that this guy can fix our defense?

Hope this means Kantari is taking a 60% pay cut. Zavaleta is ahead of him.

[T-boy]

I like the targets - we had only one given this season and although we met it, none of us are happy.

If Vanney doesn't get this team improved before the first home game, he's gone.

So he has one game next season?

We are such generous fans!

[Ultra & Proud]

I like the targets - we had only one given this season and although we met it, none of us are happy.

If Vanney doesn't get this team improved before the first home game, he's gone.
He will get until the summer break (if they do one) if he stays through the off season. By then the problems will be beyond repair of who's next and then it's on to a 2017 rebuild.

[notthesun]

Given the ultimatum from Manning, Vanney needs 8 points from the road trip or he's gone.

[Oldtimer]

I think he knew what he was doing. It's a semi vote of confidence with a hefty dose of pressure piled on top.


yeah. it's the same kind of vote of confidence English league managers get before they get the sack after the next game

It's "I can easily replace you if I want."

[MightyDM]

Exactly. After my 42% price increase, just yesterday I decided to drop my pair of season tickets. Instead I was going to share with a guy who is upset about the same price increase, and whose buddy wants out of their pair of tickets for sure. Now I'm not so sure.

Even with Vanney, your new price of $17 is a bargain to watch Giovinco play. Sorry you didn't renew.

[reggie]

so who will be the coach after they go 1- 5-2 next season?

[Auzzy]

to be fair to Manning, he's a recent hire and still getting his feet wet at TFC FO. probably didn't expect the team to suck so back last few weeks, considering the run TFC was on just prior to

You know what, I thought Manning had been around longer. He talked about "2 weeks" in his presser today. I just checked, he was announced on Oct. 12th, I thought it had been much earlier than that. I guess time crawls when you're miserable...

After hearing the full interview from Manning, I'm a bit less upset. Context matters. He sounded pretty reasonable.

However, I don't know if the comparisons with Kreis' first seasons at RSL that Manning made, & the overall "improvement" mantra, are really so useful. Kreis wasn't gifted a player like Seba for example. Manning talked about the improved number of points since last year, but I would say that was 99% Seba, & 0% Vanney. Defensively, I think we actually gave up 4 more goals than last year.

Oh well, I guess we have to live with it now. Somehow I was hoping for something more encouraging, especially as I have to make decisions about season tickets.

[notthesun]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_gxUam-ccY

This is worth a watch. "Straight shooter" is an understatement.

[Auzzy]

Even with Vanney, your new price of $17 is a bargain to watch Giovinco play. Sorry you didn't renew.

I wish you would stop with this tripe, on almost every thread. Show me where they will sell me a ticket for $17. It's $646 for a pair of season tickets, and it's going to keep going up excessively. After 9 years of TFC frustration, most of the people from my family & from work who used to go to games with me, aren't interested anymore. People are feeling even more hopeless for next season, due to Vanney, pitch chewed up by CFL, and more. Often I'm going alone to games as a result -- so they want me to pay $646 up front for what will often be a single seat. And if I did manage to sell a single or a pair of tickets for a game this year, it was often only for $15 per seat. It's hardly worth the hassle when there's so little demand, and the team is so inept in many aspects. I can see Seba on TV for much less than that. Plus I can usually pick up single tickets for $15 or less from others, sometimes free, w/o having to worry about the whole season.

At the most, sharing with a seat neighbour who's in the same boat makes more sense, which was my latest plan. Now he's not getting back to me. I wonder if he's changed his mind after today...

[Ultra & Proud]

so who will be the coach after they go 1- 5-2 next season?
Fraser because no one of any use will be available that early and Kreis will be gone. Unless they totally clean house and then it'll be Bent I guess.

Then we give that person a year and a half or so because stability is important and then we can keep going from one inexperienced guy to another as not many guys with good resumes are floating around when we fire guys in May/June.

And that's why things never work out here. It's not that we change managers so often, it's that we fire them at the wrong times and then replace them with inexperienced options.

[Ultra & Proud]

Even with Vanney, your new price of $17 is a bargain to watch Giovinco play. Sorry you didn't renew.
Not if we improve nothing and stand pat. Then he, like us, will be hit and miss to do anything offensively just like it was down the stretch when teams froze Seba out for full matches. Then I will assume he will get massively frustrated and you could see it growing in him as the season wound down and then he will leave. By the time that all goes down in 2017 that $17 will be $20+ and we'll be looking at another rebuild at an inflated cost.

All because we crave stability. At least we will be stable at inconsistency.


Plus I almost forgot that we'll get to see all this with a chewed up pitch to boot. Now that's value.

[pdubs]

Watching the videos, Bezbatchenko has really improved on his public speaking. Not really related to this thread, but found it interesting.

[reggie]

i will still support TFC...probs will go to most of the games,but i will not renew,they will not get my 4 k up front.how these 2 clowns still have a job :facepalm:
first 8 games on the road...bradley and jozy and seba probs missing 6 to 9-10 games next season,they really take our fan base for granted.

[Ultra & Proud]

first 8 games on the road...bradley and jozy and seba probs missing 6 to 9-10 games next season,they really take our fan base for granted.
These are all things that are par for the course. We wanted a roof so we ht the road for 8. We wanted good players so then you lose them as well for a bunch of matches. It's how things go. No one likes it but it is what it is.

Now by not doing desso or the tile system and letting the pitch get mangled and by keeping a manager who isn't up to task along with the price increase are signs that they take us for granted.

[ryan]

Based on their comments, it feels like our top 3 stars aren't down with the Vanney. The fact that he's staying is concerning no? Is our club going to side with Vanney if they were to say "I want the fuck out of his clueless shitshow?"

Last thing I want is these guys getting the "this club is fucking unfixable" feel in their gut.

[Ossington Mental Youth]

As always interesting to see other peoples interpretations of what people say/how they act.
Can continue to say i dont agree with most on the forum.

[Oldtimer]

As always interesting to see other peoples interpretations of what people say/how they act.
Can continue to say i dont agree with most on the forum.

You ARE in a Vanney hate thread.

BTW, I do believe in stability, and if Kreis did turn TFC down it would be best to give Vanney another year as he is genuinely showing that he is learning.

[Ultra & Proud]

You ARE in a Vanney hate thread.

BTW, I do believe in stability, and if Kreis did turn TFC down it would be best to give Vanney another year as he is genuinely showing that he is learning.
I'm not being a dick but honestly, what has he shown that points to him learning? I see no difference from first 10 matches to the last 10 from his side other than the fact that Seba was no surprise anymore and our game plan was easy to negate after teams saw us a few times. I didn't see a whole lot of answers from him but I saw a few questionable moves.

[OgtheDim]

So he has one game next season?

We are such generous fans!


Uh, you know we are not playing a home game until the first couple of weeks of May?

[Super]

We kick off the season with 8 games on the road. Worst case scenario is that this stretch will be awful and Manning will have to act and fire Vanning. If this happens we're looking at a new coach in May, and that's not likely to be an experienced one like Kreis. So we're probably looking at Fraser at that point. He'll want to make changes, and that'll be tough to do once the season is deep into games. Very likely if Vanney doesn't work out in that first 8 game stretch then the season will be a loss. Then look to get another inexperienced guy at the helm, he'll need a full off-season and will "deserve" a new season of his own. Rinse, repeat. We've seen it before.

To me the problem was never stability. Could any of you imagine giving Winter or Mariner 2 season starts? How do you figure that would have gone? How about Mo as coach? 2 season starts? I guess not. So the problem is not stability as much as it's finding a proper coach who can do something good that would allow him to EARN to stay beyond one season. That's when we will finally get some stability. But we have to weather the storm of Vanney who has lost the dressing room and have proven so far to not be able to fix the defense. Last 10 games in 2014 had 1.5 goals against per game. 2015 1.7 goals against per game. Meanwhile Vanney says he doesn't believe we need a new (or another) CB.

It's worrisome. But I hope that Manning is the difference maker.

[Richard]

We kick off the season with 8 games on the road. Worst case scenario is that this stretch will be awful and Manning will have to act and fire Vanning. If this happens we're looking at a new coach in May, and that's not likely to be an experienced one like Kreis. So we're probably looking at Fraser at that point. He'll want to make changes, and that'll be tough to do once the season is deep into games. Very likely if Vanney doesn't work out in that first 8 game stretch then the season will be a loss. Then look to get another inexperienced guy at the helm, he'll need a full off-season and will "deserve" a new season of his own. Rinse, repeat. We've seen it before.

To me the problem was never stability. Could any of you imagine giving Winter or Mariner 2 season starts? How do you figure that would have gone? How about Mo as coach? 2 season starts? I guess not. So the problem is not stability as much as it's finding a proper coach who can do something good that would allow him to EARN to stay beyond one season. That's when we will finally get some stability. But we have to weather the storm of Vanney who has lost the dressing room and have proven so far to not be able to fix the defense. Last 10 games in 2014 had 1.5 goals against per game. 2015 1.7 goals against per game. Meanwhile Vanney says he doesn't believe we need a new (or another) CB.

It's worrisome. But I hope that Manning is the difference maker.

I think Vanney may be right in that we don't necessarily need a new CB, I think the back line could use some better protection as defense is a team tactic and a lot of our defensive issues can be blamed on the midfield or forwards not tracking back.

[Super]

I think Vanney may be right in that we don't necessarily need a new CB, I think the back line could use some better protection as defense is a team tactic and a lot of our defensive issues can be blamed on the midfield or forwards not tracking back.

He tinkered with the tactics all year long, and yet the problem persisted. Got worse towards the end. I definitely think we need a very strong CB. It's pretty much the first thing that comes to mind when I think about a NEED on this team, here and now.

[barticusz]

So happy that we have a President that has not only preached stability but is acting upon it now. Love that we are keeping Vanney.. and completely agree with needing to give coaches 3 years, I've said it before and it's nice to see the President say the exact same thing.

STABILITY.. FINALLY!

[Super]

So happy that we have a President that has not only preached stability but is acting upon it now. Love that we are keeping Vanney.. and completely agree with needing to give coaches 3 years, I've said it before and it's nice to see the President say the exact same thing.

STABILITY.. FINALLY!

Stability light. He gets 8 games basically. Short leash. Vanney falls short in those 8 games of 8 pts (or about) then we'll be looking for a new coach in May. Do you still feel happy?

[ronzilla]

You only want stability when you have a winning coach, which vanney is far from.

[MightyDM]

I wish you would stop with this tripe, on almost every thread. Show me where they will sell me a ticket for $17. It's $646 for a pair of season tickets, and it's going to keep going up excessively. After 9 years of TFC frustration, most of the people from my family & from work who used to go to games with me, aren't interested anymore. People are feeling even more hopeless for next season, due to Vanney, pitch chewed up by CFL, and more. Often I'm going alone to games as a result -- so they want me to pay $646 up front for what will often be a single seat. And if I did manage to sell a single or a pair of tickets for a game this year, it was often only for $15 per seat. It's hardly worth the hassle when there's so little demand, and the team is so inept in many aspects. I can see Seba on TV for much less than that. Plus I can usually pick up single tickets for $15 or less from others, sometimes free, w/o having to worry about the whole season.

At the most, sharing with a seat neighbour who's in the same boat makes more sense, which was my latest plan. Now he's not getting back to me. I wonder if he's changed his mind after today...

I only keep replying because you and others in light grey keep saying there is a 42 per cent increase, (in every thread, btw,) but it is up to $323 for 19 games which is only $17, which needs to be said.

if you don't want to renew because it isn't worth $17 that's your call, and I respect it (but urge you to reconsider). We have great times at TFC no matter how infuriating it can be. However, the 42 per cent argument doesn't sit with me because the absolute price level of these tickets isn't outrageous. That's all.

and I said it all politely this time. Don't leave us!

[MightyDM]

Fraser because no one of any use will be available that early and Kreis will be gone. Unless they totally clean house and then it'll be Bent I guess.

Then we give that person a year and a half or so because stability is important and then we can keep going from one inexperienced guy to another as not many guys with good resumes are floating around when we fire guys in May/June.

And that's why things never work out here. It's not that we change managers so often, it's that we fire them at the wrong times and then replace them with inexperienced options.

This is how I feel. I felt Nelsen should have been given the season and we should have had a proper search if he did not make the playoffs.

That wasn't to be. Now that we have seen Vanney for a season and a quarter we know that his tactics have appalling weaknesses defensively, particularly in midfield protecting the defence, and sometimes in selections. For example, after the adjustments Montreal made in the second half of the last game of the regular season, it was clear Vanney needed to make tactical or strategic adjustments. He could have started with a 4-2-3-1 in the playoff game, could have played Warner ahead of Jackson instead of Findley, could have played Morgan with Morrow at RB and Jackson ahead of him. All of those were done during the regular season and worked, in some games. Instead, he did nothing. Totally puzzling. Furthermore, he doesn't get the best out of Bradley and Altidore.

On on the other hand, and to be fair because I have always been concerned about him, from the first game he coached in which we conceded to a poor Philly team and lost, he has shown some signs of improvement - I couldn't make the comment I made above if he had not played those combinations during the season, successfully. Not enough for me, but it must be said.

I am wondering if one of his weaknesses is an inability to handle superstars. Jozy, who can do great things, should have come off the bench for the playoff game and we should have started in the 4-2-3-1. Bradley is fantastic but the balance is never right when he is in the team. On the other hand, Osorio and Delgado blossomed under Vanney and we often played well when some or all the DP's were not available - see, Red Bulls. Perhaps his apparently too calm manner, or perhaps top level players don't respect him, but it could be a serious issue.

now he is coming back, but on a short leash. Us that smart? Surely if management thinks he should return it should be with full support, a clear analysis, and a strategy to buttress his weaknesses. Simply saying 8 in 8 isn't fair to him, or the club.

[MightyDM]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_gxUam-ccY

This is worth a watch. "Straight shooter" is an understatement.

wow. Inspires, and exudes, confidence.

[trane]

Manning's decision is silly. Unless Vanney has a magical transformation over the winter, he will be fired after 8 games, and then we will be back to picking the first person available. I thought we were going in the right direction, but once again MLSE corporate stupidity think seems to be penetrating.

Oldtimer, this is not a Vanney hate thread read the discussion on here. At the end of the day it is an honest assessment for what he is. Give him another year because he is learning? Based on what do you make that conclusion?

Anyway it is what it is. Our owners are losers in terms of sport and despite of true signs of improvement the lack of true leadership, and people who can read and analyze the situation realistically has hurt as again. This is ship run by middle managers who are afraid to rock the boat. We kept Vanney for stability, to show us what he can do, and he has shown that he cannot organize his team defensively. I am ok with not firing him if you have no good replacement, but this means that they will not be looking, UNTILL the season is well underway. THat is ridiculous.

[OgtheDim]

I'm pretty darn sure Manning has a list in his head of who he will go to as a replacement for either Bez or Vanney if things don't improve. Guys been around the game a long time and knows coaches and player evaluators at various levels.

Almost all decent MLS coaches have come up from the college level - I would not be surprised to see a replacement come from that route.

[ensco]

Manning's decision is silly. Unless Vanney has a magical transformation over the winter, he will be fired after 8 games, and then we will be back to picking the first person available. I thought we were going in the right direction, but once again MLSE corporate stupidity think seems to be penetrating.

Oldtimer, this is not a Vanney hate thread read the discussion on here. At the end of the day it is an honest assessment for what he is. Give him another year because he is learning? Based on what do you make that conclusion?

Anyway it is what it is. Our owners are losers in terms of sport and despite of true signs of improvement the lack of true leadership, and people who can read and analyze the situation realistically has hurt as again. This is ship run by middle managers who are afraid to rock the boat. We kept Vanney for stability, to show us what he can do, and he has shown that he cannot organize his team defensively. I am ok with not firing him if you have no good replacement, but this means that they will not be looking, UNTILL the season is well underway. THat is ridiculous.

He didn't say he believes in Vanney.

I did not want Vanney, yet another rookie hired without a search, same for Bez. While I have been excited about Bradley and Gio, I have always worried that you really can't build a team that his way (and that was before this year's bizarre scenario, where all the teams with the lowest payrolls are at the top of the standings). So I want change.

But I want thoughtful change. For a change.

Manning has the hand he was dealt, not the hand he wants. Leiweke had a blank sheet, not so this time. A hundred million has been invested in 3 players. Most of the roster constructed around trying to build chemistry for those three players. That plan, like it or hate it, could possibly yet work, if it gels. You can't say it won't, even if you don't fancy the odds.

Hiring Kreis means going nuclear and starting over.

So he will let it ride, then blow it up if it doesn't turn.

Given that, I LOVED the 8 game test. He is telling Bradley, the team, the fans, very clearly where he stands here. It isn't his plan, so don't expect patience or any understanding. Only results will hold him off.

The cost is losing Kreis to Philly or wherever, but I can live with that. Blowing this up is another 2-3 year process, it's worth something to be careful about that given the history here.

[trane]

^
Why is replacing a coach blowing up and starting over. Managers come in all the time and the team moves forward, without any blow up , but with changes in approach and tactics, some player change can be done in the off season but this is not a roster that has to be blown up.

I want thought full change too, but it is better in the off-season, then 8 games in. Having said that I like what I have heard from Manning I just do not like giving Vanney the 8 games, because there is no logical reason to think that Vanney will improve for the 8 games.

[ensco]

^
Why is replacing a coach blowing up and starting over. Managers come in all the time and the team moves forward, without any blow up , but with changes in approach and tactics, some player change can be done in the off season but this is not a roster that has to be blown up.

I want thought full change too, but it is better in the off-season, then 8 games in. Having said that I like what I have heard from Manning I just do not like giving Vanney the 8 games, because there is no logical reason to think that Vanney will improve for the 8 games.

This was the smart part. Because he is saying this call is not just about Vanney, it's about Bez too. He'll do more than just fire Vanney, if that's where this goes.

His timeline is driven by the summer window, because that is realistically when he will move the expensive guys, if he goes to a new plan.

[starter]

This was the smart part. Because he is saying this call is not just about Vanney, it's about Bez too. He'll do more than just fire Vanney, if that's where this goes.

His timeline is driven by the summer window, because that is realistically when he will move the expensive guys, if he goes to a new plan.

That would be smart, if Bez/Vanney were capable of competing in this league.
This past season does not suggest they are catching up, while we should expect other teams to improve. Where will the edge come from?
It would be difficult to get people excited about the team in the off-season as well.

[Ultra & Proud]

This was the smart part. Because he is saying this call is not just about Vanney, it's about Bez too. He'll do more than just fire Vanney, if that's where this goes.

His timeline is driven by the summer window, because that is realistically when he will move the expensive guys, if he goes to a new plan.
To me this is the stupid part. He is setting it up to destroy it. You dump Vanney and replace him with Kreis and he tweaks things and at worst, we're similar until some roster moves go down. Then we could build from there. It would be better for the term that we have players like Seba and would give us a chance to maybe win something.

The way he laid it out is like taking a kid who can't swim out in a boat and tossing him in the lake. If he swims to shore then he lives then we go from there, if not then we have a new baby and start over. That's what I read between the lines. He wants to blow it all up but doesn't want backlash so he says the right things (yeeehaw stability!) and gives an obvious failure the opportunity to give him an excuse to start over.

I expect 2016 & 2017 to be write offs unless somehow Vanney becomes a football manager but I fear he will meat for social Darwinist beast.

[ManUtd4ever]

If Kreis expressed an interest in joining the organization and Manning still opted for the status quo, then it would warrant criticism. We'll never know the truth, but I suspect Kreis said thanks but no thanks.

[Yohan]

http://www.hudsonriverblue.com/2015/11/3/9667754/why-jason-kreis-was-fired

Good article on why Kreis got fired.

[Yohan]

I wonder if Vanney has the balls to bench Bradley if he doesn't do what Vanney wants him to do.

[Ultra & Proud]

I wonder if Vanney has the balls to bench Bradley if he doesn't do what Vanney wants him to do.
I say no. Vanney would get benched first.

[T-boy]

I'm wondering if its ironic that those saying that Vanney shouldn't get another season and that Kreis should replace him realise that Kreis' first full season in charge of RSL they were bottom of the west (and only 2 points more than TFC in their woeful first season)?

I'm assuming that there were probably many RSL fans at the end of that first season saying "fire this guy"! Vanney has done a lot better than Kreis in his first full season.

[Ultra & Proud]

I'm wondering if its ironic that those saying that Vanney shouldn't get another season and that Kreis should replace him realise that Kreis' first full season in charge of RSL they were bottom of the west (and only 2 points more than TFC in their woeful first season)?

I'm assuming that there were probably many RSL fans at the end of that first season saying "fire this guy"! Vanney has done a lot better than Kreis in his first full season.

He had a lot more to work with. RSL was and is cheaply run.

I already looked up 2007 during some Twitter stuff with Larsun and in 2007 RSL only had 4 players earning over $100K. Our shitty TFC team had 10 and it'd be 11 if I was to count Dunivant's $99,975 as $100K.

That's a another good reason why. Kries managed that team up to be good. Vanney hasn't 'managed up' anyone other than Morgan who he dumped as soon as he regained some form. That is the difference between the two. As for them managing established DPs? Jury remains out on both of them but at least one has shown he can get something from low to mid range MLSers.

[T-boy]

I just don't think you can judge anything on their first full season.

It's like being judged in your first year of your job AND actually meeting your objectives.

If I was then fired I would burn the place down (which I realise would be difficult at BMO as its made of concrete and metal!).

[ManUtd4ever]

The team underachieved relative to the collective talent on the roster. That falls on the coach. The only benefit of the doubt I'll give Vanney is that he had to contend with abysmal goalkeeping most of the season.

[Oldtimer]

I'm wondering if its ironic that those saying that Vanney shouldn't get another season and that Kreis should replace him realise that Kreis' first full season in charge of RSL they were bottom of the west (and only 2 points more than TFC in their woeful first season)?

I'm assuming that there were probably many RSL fans at the end of that first season saying "fire this guy"! Vanney has done a lot better than Kreis in his first full season.

Actually, what the RSL fans said was much worse than what you will see about Vanney. They thought Kreis was a total idiot, dealing away their best players, seemingly clueless about tactics. He was a player promoted to coach, and was the cheap option. They had a terrible record for almost two seasons and then lucked into the playoffs by 1 point only because of TFC losing to NYRB (the last place team at the time) in the last game of 2009. The rest is history.

[Red CB Toronto]

Actually, what the RSL fans said was much worse than what you will see about Vanney. They thought Kreis was a total idiot, dealing away their best players, seemingly clueless about tactics. He was a player promoted to coach, and was the cheap option. They had a terrible record for almost two seasons and then lucked into the playoffs by 1 point only because of TFC losing to NYRB (the last place team at the time) in the last game of 2009. The rest is history.

That is why as much as I love us here and beyond, what fans/supporters think about who should be coach/gm, in the starting 11 is something I do not put much creedance into as it gets way too heated, emotional, heavy hearted etc. I love the banter we have but that is what it is, nothing more, nothing less but at the end of the day its up to decide what is right for the team and it's only time that will tell if it is.

I personally am really happy the Bez and Greg are being allowed to continue on, dealing with another change was just something that had no interest to me.

[ensco]

I wonder if Vanney has the balls to bench Bradley if he doesn't do what Vanney wants him to do.

Nope. Can't win that one unless you are the man.

[trane]

I do not want to be negative, but so many of the comparisons and logic used to justify as to why Vanney should be given another chance are so deeply flowed. I know they come from good places, but it is mostly overly positive. What Manning is saying is also not a vote of confidence, he is saying you are not cutting it, I give you 8 games, to prove me wrong. This is as good a chance as Vanney can expect. I would not give it to him, unless I do not think that I can find a coach that can keep the team progressing, but Manning has. However, it is not a vote of confidnece, it is more of what most in the thread have said, the team under him has improved offensively ( but Manning said what we have been saying with Giovinco and co- it would be hard for it not too)but it is not good enough defensively.

[kwhisperer]

I wonder if Vanney has the balls to bench Bradley if he doesn't do what Vanney wants him to do.

If he doesn't, then both should go.

[C.Ronaldo]

who do you think will end up going first? Bez or Vanney ?

To me, if Vanney was our future saviour, it would shown in the games we were really down and then adjusted. I think that happened once this year, they game we came back to win. The rest of the time he failed to adjust.

[ronzilla]

Vanney had the entire season to make this team click and failed miserably. What makes you think that next season will be better? He will repeat all the same mistakes from this year and leave the backline exposed again.

[ag futbol]

Vanney had the entire season to make this team click and failed miserably. What makes you think that next season will be better? He will repeat all the same mistakes from this year and leave the backline exposed again.
I wouldn't say he failed miserably, but certainly short of expectations.

[kwhisperer]

I wouldn't say he failed miserably, but certainly short of expectations.

I'd suggest the truth lies between - how about failed significantly?

[Ossington Mental Youth]

I'd suggest the truth lies between - how about failed significantly?

significant in my mind means not making the play offs, not breaking all club records (no matter how dismal) and making the play offs (no matter how short lived)

[Super]

Let's just say that he failed in the biggest way possible when it really counted. There's absolutely nothing of value to take out of that Montreal game. Absolutely nothing. This is the sort of performance that gets managers fired all over the world. Also failed to win the last 2 games which saw us miss out on a home game.

It took bags of cash and the best player this league has EVER seen to help us to the last play-off spot. 6th in the East with 2 expansion teams.

It may have been the best season we've ever had, but we've had some of the worst seasons of any team - historically bad.

[Ossington Mental Youth]

Once again, it depends on where you're seeing it from. I'm happy he's got another chance. He doesn't do better in his second season, I understand replacing him.

[Ultra & Proud]

significant in my mind means not making the play offs, not breaking all club records (no matter how dismal) and making the play offs (no matter how short lived)
Did I not hear the team say that when that final stretch of home matches came and we were sitting in a good spot that a home playoff date was the goal?

I think that was what was said and that was a more ambitious and worthwhile goal than just making the playoffs and by those standards, we significantly failed. But most importantly we failed to fix the flaws that were evident during Vanney's 10 match run at the end of last season. It was promised during last season's postmortem, re-emphasized in spring training, and then mentioned all season long how the problems at the back were the number one priority to be fixed and the fundamental issue with our defense (the coaching/tactics) was never addressed. It probably won't be addressed this winter either.

To me that is the most significant failure. Forget cheap records and low bars; we didn't fix our squad. We had a whole season and a third to make something to build on defensively and we are no better off on that front than we were last November.

[Super]

What concerns me the most is that when Vanney took over in the last 10 games of 2014 we conceded 1.5 goals per game. He talked about fixing that - because it was certainly a concern, but failed in the winter window, and in the summer window. Well, Bez and Vanney failed in bringing in GOOD replacements, and also failed in the summer window. We finished 2015 with a RECORD 1.7 goals against per game. Regular season.

This can absolutely be considered a miserable failure. I understand we technically made the play-offs, and that this was the goal, but even Bez said that NO ONE should be happy with the way the season ended. In other words: failure.

[Ultra & Proud]

What concerns me the most is that when Vanney took over in the last 10 games of 2014 we conceded 1.5 goals per game. He talked about fixing that - because it was certainly a concern, but failed in the winter window, and in the summer window. Well, Bez and Vanney failed in bringing in GOOD replacements, and also failed in the summer window. We finished 2015 with a RECORD 1.7 goals against per game. Regular season.

This can absolutely be considered a miserable failure. I understand we technically made the play-offs, and that this was the goal, but even Bez said that NO ONE should be happy with the way the season ended. In other words: failure.

I am not 100% sure that if our CBs were Gonzalez and Marshall that we would have been amazing defensively. Better for sure but not great. People seem to want to not notice or accept that we weren't ever set up to prevent goals. Our whole set up allows our D to be overrun as they often were. When you push up our FBs so high and have wing players like Findley who doesn't track back, and mids that often roam free and didn't support the back line, you will give up goals. Many times there were numbers coming freely at our CBs. They can't do it all and they got burned accordingly. Better players can only do so much. Sometimes you need a better plan too.

[Kamp Berg]

Who says that Kreis would have done well for this team? Manning obviously doesn't think so. And from what I have read it doesn't sound like he would have. Kreis has excelled with non-dp teams. That's not tfc, quite the opposite in fact. Bruce Arena would be a good choice for tfc, not Kreis. I'm guessing that Manning is Mordecai than smart enough to realize this and doesn't have any better choices right now. That said, I don't think Vanney is the right guy either, for all the reasons that have been listed in this thread. Who knows, maybe Manning will find someone else before the spring, would be pretty stupid to say anything right now though.

[Super]

I am not 100% sure that if our CBs were Gonzalez and Marshall that we would have been amazing defensively. Better for sure but not great. People seem to want to not notice or accept that we weren't ever set up to prevent goals. Our whole set up allows our D to be overrun as they often were. When you push up our FBs so high and have wing players like Findley who doesn't track back, and mids that often roam free and didn't support the back line, you will give up goals. Many times there were numbers coming freely at our CBs. They can't do it all and they got burned accordingly. Better players can only do so much. Sometimes you need a better plan too.

Better defenders would have helped, but no doubt our tactics were not right most of the time. Hence the raining in of goals.

None of this speaks well of Vanney.

I personally think that Kreis is a much better coach. Certainly a more accomplished coach. He's well respected, and there's a reason why NYCFC threw a million dollars at the guy. He's a top notch MLS coach from the highest shelf - but fair enough, TFC always finds a reason to pass up on solutions and instead embrace problems.

[jloome]

I only keep replying because you and others in light grey keep saying there is a 42 per cent increase, (in every thread, btw,) but it is up to $323 for 19 games which is only $17, which needs to be said.

if you don't want to renew because it isn't worth $17 that's your call, and I respect it (but urge you to reconsider). We have great times at TFC no matter how infuriating it can be. However, the 42 per cent argument doesn't sit with me because the absolute price level of these tickets isn't outrageous. That's all.

and I said it all politely this time. Don't leave us!

Are you adding playoffs and friendlies in there, or have they added four games to the season?

[Ultra & Proud]

Are you adding playoffs and friendlies in there, or have they added four games to the season?
Canadian Champ games?

[jloome]

Better defenders would have helped, but no doubt our tactics were not right most of the time. Hence the raining in of goals.

None of this speaks well of Vanney.

I personally think that Kreis is a much better coach. Certainly a more accomplished coach. He's well respected, and there's a reason why NYCFC threw a million dollars at the guy. He's a top notch MLS coach from the highest shelf - but fair enough, TFC always finds a reason to pass up on solutions and instead embrace problems.

To me, the player quotes and Manning needing an answer as to "why they came out flat" speaks volumes about this team.

We once again hired an inexperienced coach.
We once again tinkered with the defense by first offending our only decent center back, then cutting him loose for a mystery injury.
We once again hired overly expensive foreign players who aren't up to the task.
WE once again hired a midfielder whose role is unknown and whose skill level/traits don't seem to gel. Bradley, meet Julian De Guzman.
We once again went into the season without really knowing whether our first-team goalkeeper was good enough.
We once again spent a fortune on a striker (Altidore) who looks disinterested much of the time.
We once again ignored the wings and our lack of ability there. Daniel Lovitz is about the only natural winger on the team and is USL level.

To that, we add Seba, which basically accounts for making sixth (which didn't exist last year as a playoff spot) and breaking goal records. IN doing so, we made a bad defense even worse and failed to fix anything else. Look at that list: is anyone really surprised by where we finished?

Same GM, same coach.... same results? I guess we'll see. But the very fact that we have a former defender GM who couldn't tell from their past history that Perquis and Kantari werent' worth the money, or that we have a coach who thinks his 34-year-old winger buddy from the 2010 WC team should be starting? Those don't bode particularly well. It just seems like a waste of an offseason, but I guess we'll see.

[Areathrasher]

I think it's been mentioned before but this has a whiff of Manning pulling a Shannahan and letting Bez/Vanney pull a Nonis/Carlyle.

[TearsForCheers]

I see your point OMY but what I can't get passed is the fact that we had the 2 most important games in the club's season, arguably their history, at the end, so you would expect a manager to put their best effort tactically and in motivating the team, and they get blown away 5-1 in those 2 games. Not that much difference with the debacle in NY years back. Even if you take into account the last 3 games with the win against NYRB, you still look at 7-2 when it matters most. People will say three games don't define a season, but I say those three games abolutely define the season, a couple of moments of brilliance from a special player and whole lot of defensive errors with questionable tactics and selections.

[gdg_9]

I think it's been mentioned before but this has a whiff of Manning pulling a Shannahan and letting Bez/Vanney pull a Nonis/Carlyle.

Except the Leafs were waiting on Babcock to be available.
TFC had Kreis available now, and it's not like there's another, better option that we know is likely to be available at the end of the season.

That's the big difference.

[jloome]

Except the Leafs were waiting on Babcock to be available.
TFC had Kreis available now, and it's not like there's another, better option that we know is likely to be available at the end of the season.

That's the big difference.

I think Kreis probably turned them down. Read this: http://www.hudsonriverblue.com/2015/11/3/9667754/why-jason-kreis-was-fired

It explains what happened with NYFC, but the content of how the team broke down and why sounds AWFULLY similar to TFC.

[trane]

I want to say so much, but so much has been said. The bottom line there are so few reasons to keep Vanney and to except that we will be any better next season.

[jloome]

I want to say so much, but so much has been said. The bottom line there are so few reasons to keep Vanney and to except that we will be any better next season.

Yeah, that pretty much sums it up for me. The only way he turns into the guy overnight is if we make such substantial improvements to the non-DP roster that the players take care of it themselves. I don't seem him as a motivator, and our formations were all over the place, never settled. We playe timidly at times, and I got no sense that he was injecting the appropriate bravado and confidence into the side. We played like a bunch of nervous individuals far too often for it not to be partly the lack of an experienced, successful manager.

[moralis]

John Carver's available and interested in returning to MLS:

As the MLS coaching carousel begins to spin, some familiar names are beginning to surface. Sources tell Goal USA that former Toronto FC and Newcastle United manager John Carver is interested in a return to MLS. Carver coached Toronto FC in 2008 before resigning in early 2009. Carver then spent four years as an assistant coach with English Premier League side Newcastle United, most recently serving as caretaker manager to close out the 2014-2015 season.

http://www.goal.com/en-us/news/1110/major-league-soccer/2015/11/05/17019212/inside-mls-ramos-leads-pack-for-fire-job-morris-still?ICID=HP_BN_1

[TFC Cityboy]

To me, the player quotes and Manning needing an answer as to "why they came out flat" speaks volumes about this team.

We once again hired an inexperienced coach.
We once again tinkered with the defense by first offending our only decent center back, then cutting him loose for a mystery injury.
We once again hired overly expensive foreign players who aren't up to the task.
WE once again hired a midfielder whose role is unknown and whose skill level/traits don't seem to gel. Bradley, meet Julian De Guzman.
We once again went into the season without really knowing whether our first-team goalkeeper was good enough.
We once again spent a fortune on a striker (Altidore) who looks disinterested much of the time.
We once again ignored the wings and our lack of ability there. Daniel Lovitz is about the only natural winger on the team and is USL level.

To that, we add Seba, which basically accounts for making sixth (which didn't exist last year as a playoff spot) and breaking goal records. IN doing so, we made a bad defense even worse and failed to fix anything else. Look at that list: is anyone really surprised by where we finished?

Same GM, same coach.... same results? I guess we'll see. But the very fact that we have a former defender GM who couldn't tell from their past history that Perquis and Kantari werent' worth the money, or that we have a coach who thinks his 34-year-old winger buddy from the 2010 WC team should be starting? Those don't bode particularly well. It just seems like a waste of an offseason, but I guess we'll see.

nailed it

[trane]

Yeah, that pretty much sums it up for me. The only way he turns into the guy overnight is if we make such substantial improvements to the non-DP roster that the players take care of it themselves. I don't seem him as a motivator, and our formations were all over the place, never settled. We playe timidly at times, and I got no sense that he was injecting the appropriate bravado and confidence into the side. We played like a bunch of nervous individuals far too often for it not to be partly the lack of an experienced, successful manager.

And if you rebuild the roster do you not want to hand it to someone who will maximize its potential?

[MightyDM]

Are you adding playoffs and friendlies in there, or have they added four games to the season?

Its my understanding that tickets are priced over 19 games, 17 league and two CCL. Am I incorrect?

[ensco]

I think Kreis probably turned them down. Read this: http://www.hudsonriverblue.com/2015/11/3/9667754/why-jason-kreis-was-fired

It explains what happened with NYFC, but the content of how the team broke down and why sounds AWFULLY similar to TFC.

That does sound familiar. Although I suspect Kreis is gone because Pirlo said "it's me or him" and that is not complicated. Soriano's mistake was in hiring an actual soccer executive in his management team, as opposed to a 32 year old to execute contracts for him, and that guy's hand picked rookie coach buddy.

Doubt Manning offered it to him. I bet they both (Manning and Kreis) know that it isn't the right time. Kreis is not the person to inherit this strategy or manage this roster.

You bring Kreis in if you are blowing it up. Which we are not doing, and shouldn't do, just yet. Make that call next summer.

To me this is obvious. Manning's remit is to manage/optimize the assets he was given, not to come in and cause the team to take a $50M loss on players two weeks after he got here, because a coach he likes and has a personal relationship with is available.

I also think people are overreacting to the "eight points from 8 games" thing. Vanney will not just be fired after 8 games if they have 6 points. (I would argue we looked pretty bad after our starting road trip even though we had 9 points btw.) He's simply trying to project urgency, to the player's first and foremost. There is a natural tendency to assume a new guy, if he doesn't change everything right away, is comfortable.

[pdubs]

https://twitter.com/JulianTheIntern/status/662443706214129664

[jimiv]

https://twitter.com/JulianTheIntern/status/662443706214129664

A lot of money but the senior guys in the locker room wouldn't be able to question their managers credentials or knowledge.

[Oldtimer]

To me this is obvious. Manning's remit is to manage/optimize the assets he was given, not to come in and cause the team to take a $50M loss on players two weeks after he got here, because a coach he likes and has a personal relationship with is available.


Overall I agree with you that probably both Manning and Kreis know it's not the right time. However, TFC wouldn't lose a full $50 million on disposing of their high-priced assets. They'd get sizable transfer fees for Giovinco and for Bradley (Altidore is another story, he most likely would be traded within MLS).

I know that TFC doesn't represent the lunch bucket team that Kreis would have built, but the style of play is not far from what he would want. Getting rid of Altidore and bringing in a stud DM and a RB would enable Kreis to play the style that he likes, a total blow up is not necessary. He could change the squad bit by bit.

[Ultra & Proud]

Just reading on ESPN that Bradley Sr. is leaving Norway for a 'bigger club'.

[MightyDM]

I cannot get past the last game and the adjustments that Vanney could have made to deal with the threat on the right flank: all of these worked earlier in the season at different points: Morrow at RB, Jackson in midfield; 4-2-3-1 with Jozy on the bench and Warner as part of the "2;" Warner in place of Findley in front of Jackson. Three simple adjustments, baffled as to why there were none. And Benching Kantari for Zavaleta given his performance in the first game should have been a given.

[Areathrasher]

Just reading on ESPN that Bradley Sr. is leaving Norway for a 'bigger club'.

Le Harve in Ligue 2

[Super]

It's tough getting a top coaching job in Europe. Even with a big resume like Bradley Sr. it's not like Ajax is calling him. Compare that to here where we hire people with no resume. No wonder we're 9 years deep with a single play-off round behind us.

[ensco]

Overall I agree with you that probably both Manning and Kreis know it's not the right time. However, TFC wouldn't lose a full $50 million on disposing of their high-priced assets. They'd get sizable transfer fees for Giovinco and for Bradley (Altidore is another story, he most likely would be traded within MLS).

I know that TFC doesn't represent the lunch bucket team that Kreis would have built, but the style of play is not far from what he would want. Getting rid of Altidore and bringing in a stud DM and a RB would enable Kreis to play the style that he likes, a total blow up is not necessary. He could change the squad bit by bit.

All three DPs make multiples of what they are worth. Maybe Gio's contract could be transferred, Defoe somehow got someone to give him $7M for 3 years,maybe same is possible for Gio. But Gio doesn't have the pedigree Defoe did, and Serie A isn't the EPL.

[nfitz]

Its my understanding that tickets are priced over 19 games, 17 league and two CCL. Am I incorrect?You are not incorrect. Which is why when you divide almost any season ticket price since 2012 by 19, it's always a round number, or very occasionally leaves an exact 50 cent amount.

[Ultra & Proud]

I cannot get past the last game and the adjustments that Vanney could have made to deal with the threat on the right flank: all of these worked earlier in the season at different points: Morrow at RB, Jackson in midfield; 4-2-3-1 with Jozy on the bench and Warner as part of the "2;" Warner in place of Findley in front of Jackson. Three simple adjustments, baffled as to why there were none. And Benching Kantari for Zavaleta given his performance in the first game should have been a given.
Vanney many times during the season talked about us 'playing our game' and not adjusting our tactics to suit what others do but rather to make them adjust to us. Usually this came back to bite us at times when it shouldn't have.

In that you can safely assume that Vanney is either A) massively arrogant regarding his tactics and game plan or B) he is a clueless idiot who has no idea what he's doing.

[notthesun]

All three DPs make multiples of what they are worth. Maybe Gio's contract could be transferred, Defoe somehow got someone to give him $7M for 3 years,maybe same is possible for Gio. But Gio doesn't have the pedigree Defoe did, and Serie A isn't the EPL.

If they got shipped out they would both have to take pay cuts, but we'd pocket the transfer fee is what Oldtimer is saying (or whatever portion we're allowed to keep under MLS's weird rules). Giovinco for instance would easily shatter the record for an outgoing MLS player if he was sold this winter.

[jloome]

Vanney many times during the season talked about us 'playing our game' and not adjusting our tactics to suit what others do but rather to make them adjust to us. Usually this came back to bite us at times when it shouldn't have.

In that you can safely assume that Vanney is either A) massively arrogant regarding his tactics and game plan or B) he is a clueless idiot who has no idea what he's doing.

Teams tend to reflect their manager, and our team is arrogant; from Bradley's declaration that we no longer had defensive issues before the Columbus game, to Jackson's repeated attempts to stretch his leg eight feet and intercept near-impossible balls rather than run, to Kantari manhandling guys in the box on his first shift, to Findley trying to weave through three players, to Bradley shooting repeatedly from twenty-plus yards and skying them into the crowd.

We play arrogantly. Not confidently, arrogantly.

[MightyDM]

You are. Which is why when you divide almost any season ticket price since 2012 by 19, it's always a round number, or very occasionally leaves an exact 50 cent amount.

I think you mean "you are correct" ?! I said "Am I incorrect?"

[MightyDM]

Teams tend to reflect their manager, and our team is arrogant; from Bradley's declaration that we no longer had defensive issues before the Columbus game, to Jackson's repeated attempts to stretch his leg eight feet and intercept near-impossible balls rather than run, to Kantari manhandling guys in the box on his first shift, to Findley trying to weave through three players, to Bradley shooting repeatedly from twenty-plus yards and skying them into the crowd.

We play arrogantly. Not confidently, arrogantly.


You are right, and very well said. You must make a living writing or something...

[nfitz]

I think you mean "you are correct" ?! I said "Am I incorrect?"I misread your comment as "am I correct" rather than "am I incorrect". You are not incorrect. You are correct. I have made a correction (or is that an incorrection) to my post).

[MightyDM]

I misread your comment as "am I correct" rather than "am I incorrect". You are not incorrect. You are correct. I have made a correction (or is that an incorrection) to my post).

i love the idea of you making an "incorrection" to your post.

besides, you are the only one to have done the homework to understand the ticketing for TFC, and well done at that. And thank you!

[ManUtd4ever]

All three DPs make multiples of what they are worth. Maybe Gio's contract could be transferred, Defoe somehow got someone to give him $7M for 3 years,maybe same is possible for Gio. But Gio doesn't have the pedigree Defoe did, and Serie A isn't the EPL.

If MLS transfers were more transparent, we would be able to prognosticate more accurately. If MLS covered portions of the transfer fees involved for our DPs, it would change the perspective as far as pondering trades involving Bradley and/or Altidore within the league. I agree that MLSE would take a bath financially if they tried to sell Bradley and Altidore overseas.

[ag futbol]

Stepping back and looking at this whole situation, I can't help but say the biggest issue here is the lack of a track record for Vanney / Bez.

If we look at some of the names that have come up (some half jokingly / some serious) you'd be loathe not to notice the irony of wanting to fire Vanney for not getting the most out of this team all while brining in other coaches who were more or less fired for having the same shortcoming (but have experience beyond their latest failures).

Don't interpret this as a vote of confidence in the coach (it's not). It's just enough to say sometimes I feel we're wearing the poop coloured glasses after suffering through years of this club's ineptitude.

[Oldtimer]

^ this.
Kreis had the worst defence in the league at NYCFC. So he's the one to solve our defensive ills? The problem with NYCFC was an unbalanced squad, TFC has the same problem.

When LA was initially built, they had the same issues, but eventually became what they are now.

When you build a squad with a DP offense, it takes some time to find the value pieces to make the defense work, but it can be done. I think it's harder to do and takes more time than building a squad of mid-range MLS players.

Vanney for all his limitations isn't the real problem.

[Calcio]

I think Kreis probably turned them down. Read this: http://www.hudsonriverblue.com/2015/11/3/9667754/why-jason-kreis-was-fired

It explains what happened with NYFC, but the content of how the team broke down and why sounds AWFULLY similar to TFC.

He was in a tough situation. Pirlo needs 2 defensive mids as cover at the least. With Juve he played in one of two systems:
-------------Tevez---Llorente------
Asamoah--Marchisio-Vidal-----Lichtsteiner
-------------------Pirlo--------------------
-----Chiellini---Bonucci-----Barzagli

In this system, there are two things that are noticeable.
-All of the CMs/Wingbacks, as well Tevez are incredibly hard workers. All of those players provided Pirlo immense protection especially in his final 2 years.
-All three of the defenders, esp. Bonucci are immensely capable with the ball. Bonucci was always an outlet for Pirlo, which helped create room.

He also played in a diamond that included a combination of Pereyra, Pogba, Vidal, Marchisio...with one playing as the CAM (usually Pereyra, or Vidal)...once again, the ability of those players to chip in defensively and cover the pitch helped him immensely. Not one of those players is creative...They are all players who can tackle, and are physically very impressive, and can run for miles.

At NYCFC, he had defenders who were not comfortable in possession, and a midfield that didn't suit him.

Kreis was dealt a bag of ****.

[jloome]

He was in a tough situation. Pirlo needs 2 defensive mids as cover at the least. With Juve he played in one of two systems:
-------------Tevez---Llorente------
Asamoah--Marchisio-Vidal-----Lichtsteiner
-------------------Pirlo--------------------
-----Chiellini---Bonucci-----Barzagli

In this system, there are two things that are noticeable.
-All of the CMs/Wingbacks, as well Tevez are incredibly hard workers. All of those players provided Pirlo immense protection especially in his final 2 years.
-All three of the defenders, esp. Bonucci are immensely capable with the ball. Bonucci was always an outlet for Pirlo, which helped create room.

He also played in a diamond that included a combination of Pereyra, Pogba, Vidal, Marchisio...with one playing as the CAM (usually Pereyra, or Vidal)...once again, the ability of those players to chip in defensively and cover the pitch helped him immensely. Not one of those players is creative...They are all players who can tackle, and are physically very impressive, and can run for miles.

At NYCFC, he had defenders who were not comfortable in possession, and a midfield that didn't suit him.

Kreis was dealt a bag of ****.

And in the end the same may be true of Vanney. There were some worrying signs it went deeper, however. Am I the only one who got zero motivation sense from the guy? Kreis at least comes across as strident and passionate.

Maybe we get a good DM, fix the wings, fix the defense. Problematically, he has said he doesn't see much need for turnover, and we have at least five expensive first-team players who should be shown the door as soon as possible.

[OgtheDim]

Maybe we get a good DM, fix the wings, fix the defense. Problematically, he has said he doesn't see much need for turnover, and we have at least five expensive first-team players who should be shown the door as soon as possible.

Bendik

Cheyrou

Findley


I would argue Perquis should stay and that the 2 CDs we saw at the end are really backups, as is Jackson.


RB, DM, 1 CD, RM, keeper.

[jloome]

Bendik

Cheyrou

Findley


I would argue Perquis should stay and that the 2 CDs we saw at the end are really backups, as is Jackson.


RB, DM, 1 CD, RM, keeper.

Kantari is on $300,000 a season, or something ridiculous like that. So he should be gone, as I highly doubt he'll renegotiate to less than half of that, which is what a backup defender in this league generally makes.

Moore is on an option and there was no suggestion this year that he has an active role in the team, before or after going home (his father died, I think). That's another.

Perquis might be Aurelien Colin type who, while reckless, was held in check at KC by being next to a better defender. So if we get a number one, we maybe keep him.

But I'd be trying to shed Kantari, Moore, Findley, Gomez, and Bendik. If Cheyrou would stay as Bradley's backup on less money (I doubt it) he'd be ideal for a late-game role as a playmaker. I'd keep Gomez on less money, too, but he's noted throughout his career for bitching about playing time, even when he's cold.

Probably Lovitz should go but we haven't seen enough. I certainly don't see a smooth, McNamara-like transition to the pro game there and he lacks athleticism, even though his ball skills are quite impressive.

WE also should probably at this point promote Babouli and Manella to the first team, as they're not learning much at USL level.

[Yohan]

Sort of off topic now, but Patrick Vieira is new NYCFC manager.

http://www.espnfc.us/new-york-city-fc/story/2706275/patrick-vieira-named-new-york-city-fc-head-coach

I think Sigi Schmid is on the hot seat at Seattle, esp with Kreis available to link up with Lagerwey again. And I think Schmid will retire if he gets fired. His health is really bad.

Bob Bradley is also available, though he still prefers to stay in Europe. Even a truckload of cash is unlikely to convince Bradley to come back to MLS, if he has Europe aspirations.

[Areathrasher]

Bradley has supposedly already taken another job with Le Harve. His bro tweeted as much this morning https://twitter.com/JeffreyPBradley/status/663684986906796032

Moyes is available :lol:

[Super]

Seattle is an ambitious club, and they want the very best. That's why I think (if Sigi is out) that Kreis will be named manager at Seattle in the very near future. They'll probably give him a top salary, too, as he was given at NYCFC (I read a million bucks a year).

[notthesun]

Bob Bradley is near officially the new manager at Le Havre, and I read a recent interview he did where he said he was frustrated that he couldn't break into a management role in a top league... talking about how he wasn't getting any offers from the biggest leagues while he sees the same group of managers jumping from club to club despite mediocre-at-best results. So he pretty clearly has aspirations beyond anything MLS could offer him.

[Super]

Bob Bradley is near officially the new manager at Le Havre, and I read a recent interview he did where he said he was frustrated that he couldn't break into a management role in a top league... talking about how he wasn't getting any offers from the biggest leagues while he sees the same group of managers jumping from club to club despite mediocre-at-best results. So he pretty clearly has aspirations beyond anything MLS could offer him.

European clubs value experience. Unlike us. Goes to show how hard it is to get a top league job in Europe - even with Bradley's credentials (he even won manager of the year in Norway). I wonder if Vanney could land a 3rd division role in Norway? Probably not.

[Yohan]

Well, Gregg Berhalter did land a job at Hammarby when they were in Swedish 2nd div. Though a lot of that had to do with AEG hook up.

[Super]

Well, Gregg Berhalter did land a job at Hammarby when they were in Swedish 2nd div. Though a lot of that had to do with AEG hook up.

That's a unique situation, really. I'd like to see a head coach from the MLS land a big league job on his own merits without a sponsor making it happen. Bradley is one, and probably Kreis could land a job overseas as well in a smaller league. But Vanney? Sorry, no Euro club in their right mind would hire him based on his experience. That's our thing!

[notthesun]

Goes to show how hard it is to get a top league job in Europe - even with Bradley's credentials (he even won manager of the year in Norway).

That's the frustration for him I think. Here's the interview: http://bigstory.ap.org/article/63dc0f31b4fb4709acca7c81b9e6c83b/bob-bradley-leaves-norway-yearning-bigger-job

He's had repeated success but can't break into the old boys' club of top flight managers.

[Richard]

Makes me wonder what sort of offers Bruce Arena would get from EU. Probably nothing more than Div.2 in the top 5 countries.

[Ossington Mental Youth]

Bob Bradley is near officially the new manager at Le Havre, and I read a recent interview he did where he said he was frustrated that he couldn't break into a management role in a top league... talking about how he wasn't getting any offers from the biggest leagues while he sees the same group of managers jumping from club to club despite mediocre-at-best results. So he pretty clearly has aspirations beyond anything MLS could offer him.

Been like this for a minute, they way his career has been going is up, dont see him returning to MLS for a bit

[Oldtimer]

So NYCFC appoints Patrick Vieira as head coach to replace Kreis. Same experience as Vanney, just with a more famous club who happens to half-own the team. So if the attraction of coming to New York and having the $$$ that Man City has can't get a better coach, what hope is there for MLSE and TFC getting people to come to Hogtown?

http://www.nycfc.com/post/2015/11/09/patrick-vieira-appointed-new-york-city-fc-head-coach


(http://www.nycfc.com/post/2015/11/09/patrick-vieira-appointed-new-york-city-fc-head-coach)

[Yohan]

So NYCFC appoints Patrick Vieira as head coach to replace Kreis. Same experience as Vanney, just with a more famous club who happens to half-own the team. So if the attraction of coming to New York and having the $$$ that Man City has can't get a better coach, what hope is there for MLSE and TFC getting people to come to Hogtown?

http://www.nycfc.com/post/2015/11/09/patrick-vieira-appointed-new-york-city-fc-head-coach


(http://www.nycfc.com/post/2015/11/09/patrick-vieira-appointed-new-york-city-fc-head-coach)
Vieira to NYCFC has been rumoured for a while. I think the sheikhs had a plan to eventually put Vieira in NY. They've been grooming Vieira for a while.

[Super]

Vieira to NYCFC has been rumoured for a while. I think the sheikhs had a plan to eventually put Vieira in NY. They've been grooming Vieira for a while.

Exactly. They could have easily signed a very experienced manager and put him in place - it's not because they didn't have other options. They want to build up Vieira to take over City one day. He's a huge personality with the club, but they want to try him out in the MLS first. Personally I think it's a terrible idea. He's far too inexperienced to be running a big club, even if it's the MLS. However, it might work, but it's certainly riskier than taking on experience with evidence that the guy can actually do the job.

[notthesun]

So NYCFC appoints Patrick Vieira as head coach to replace Kreis. Same experience as Vanney, just with a more famous club who happens to half-own the team. So if the attraction of coming to New York and having the $$$ that Man City has can't get a better coach, what hope is there for MLSE and TFC getting people to come to Hogtown?

http://www.nycfc.com/post/2015/11/09/patrick-vieira-appointed-new-york-city-fc-head-coach

This wasn't a situation where they couldn't find anyone to take the job. Vieira was their first choice. He's been coaching in the Man City academy for years now - he is being groomed to eventually take over at City itself. This is the next step in that process.

NYCFC didn't come up empty here, they didn't even search. Vieira was always going to be brought in, this is probably just earlier than they had originally planned.

[C.Ronaldo]

This wasn't a situation where they couldn't find anyone to take the job. Vieira was their first choice. He's been coaching in the Man City academy for years now - he is being groomed to eventually take over at City itself. This is the next step in that process.

NYCFC didn't come up empty here, they didn't even search. Vieira was always going to be brought in, this is probably just earlier than they had originally planned.

what a solid player he was....on a coaching note, MLS went from a players retirement league to where coaches gain experience

[Ajax TFC]

So NYCFC appoints Patrick Vieira as head coach to replace Kreis. Same experience as Vanney, just with a more famous club who happens to half-own the team. So if the attraction of coming to New York and having the $$$ that Man City has can't get a better coach, what hope is there for MLSE and TFC getting people to come to Hogtown?

http://www.nycfc.com/post/2015/11/09/patrick-vieira-appointed-new-york-city-fc-head-coach


(http://www.nycfc.com/post/2015/11/09/patrick-vieira-appointed-new-york-city-fc-head-coach)

I don't think it's so much that they couldn't get a better coach, but rather that they're using NYCFC as a development ground for coaching as well now. They really are the successor to Chivas USA

[Detroit_TFC]

I agree that putting Vieira in was probably in the plans all along. I'll take the less popular view that he'll do better than Kreis, and it won't be a mess. He has done a solid job with the MCFC senior academy squad (which they call their Elite Development Squad) and CFG will be very keen to help him. Anything is possible so it could go wrong but I think he's going to get a lot more out of all their current players and CFG will bring in some better younger players he is already familiar with.

[OgtheDim]

...CFG will bring in some better younger players he is already familiar with.

US soccer isn't going to change the domestic rules.

It comes down to the MLS equivalent of "Stoke on a Rainy Teusday Night".

Can he take his team through the heat of Texas and across the country via charter and still get the best out of them?

[Detroit_TFC]

US soccer isn't going to change the domestic rules.

It comes down to the MLS equivalent of "Stoke on a Rainy Teusday Night".

Can he take his team through the heat of Texas and across the country via charter and still get the best out of them?

Understood, within the limits of roster rules. He may only be able to have at most 3 from the EDS but I'm thinking he might get some players higher on the development priority list than the type Kreis had during his season.

[Abou Sky]

I have never liked Vanney, from day one, I didn't like Vanney.

That said, do we really want a different manager? Do you think that starting over again is a good idea? This is Vanney's squad, and unless he has lost the locker room, keep him for another year because otherwise it is just another rebuild.

Instead, how about at least trying to build on the foundation that we have. If Vanney is a wash out next year, we can get rid of him by June/July and hope that the season isn't a loss. But we should at least TRY to stick with him.

Look at DC, Ben Olsen has been their manager since 2010. In 2013 they had the worst MLS record EVER.

Even better, look at Chelsea, is Mourinho all of a sudden a shit manager?

I have been saying 'I want Vanney to prove me wrong' for a year, I STILL want him to prove me wrong, but this is NOT Paul Mariner and I really don't think that he is going to sink the team for any extended period of time if he stays on and fails.

[OgtheDim]

Some info on the coaching carousel - Schmid stays in Seattle. I suspect he and Martins and Dempsey have one more season to try to get something going. Seattle will be retooling its role players, getting faster and younger.

[Soccer Mum]

What about Brendan Rodgers?

[Ultra & Proud]

What about Brendan Rodgers?
As much as I miss Deluded Brendan, I would prefer he ply his trade somewhere else. A team of #10's isn't going to fly in MLS.

[Areathrasher]

Rogers is probably another firing in England and a job in Europe away from MLS.

[Soccer Mum]

As much as I miss Deluded Brendan, I would prefer he ply his trade somewhere else. A team of #10's isn't going to fly in MLS.

But he would have said we were outstanding in that 3-0 defeat to Mtl