The Vanney Era Deathwatch Thread

[billyfly]

The worst team in the World. Remember that quote?

[notthesun]

Cheyrou was a good signing. Perquois played his finest game recently, and got injured. Delgado is ok. Giovinco was a steal. Altidore is questionable. Add these players to most MLS teams and they would contribute. The problem on defence is critical. And our keeper is woeful. He should have stopped the first goal tonight, not that it mattered in the end.

The book is definitely still out on Perquis. He showed well in his most recent run of starts, but you expect a lot more for his salary and pedigree.

Bez has made some decent moves and a few great ones. But he's made some awful ones, and the ones he hasn't made have cost us dearly.

[notthesun]

Just a quick note also - at the end of the day we lost 2 road games to end the season. Not excusing the performance today, but losing on the road is not exactly unheard of in MLS.

The real failure in this stretch run was laying an egg against Columbus at home. We had to win that game.

[MKR]

well i guess that's that then.

[Ultra & Proud]

He's done.


We go no further forward and threaten ruining what we have if we stay the course.


Vanney Pro's


- consistency at manager position
- had offence click at times
- out coached opponents a few times
- good media presence
- smart guy, knows league


Vanney Con's


- consistently inconsistent
- offence inconsistent and sputtered when things got tight
- lack of flexibility when it mattered
- played favourites who should not have started
- had a hand in signing two expensive CB busts (French guys come from Vanney)
- had 45 matches to address defence and didn't. Still no evidence of plan to change that.
- failure to motivate. We looked lackadaisical since we clinched
- easy to figure out. We played the same line up and set up that lost us the last 3 matches. No changes.
- Started Findley on top of Jackson who was told to push forward. No cover. Should have been Warner.
- Konopka played okay down stretch then Bendik started for no reason. Afterwards Konopka looked shaky. Who does that in important matches down the stretch?
- looked unprepared a lot all season. Sometimes played well but it looked like a lot of that was from good individual efforts.
- not many players improved under Vanney. Morgan did and then he got lost in the shuffle for some reason. Osorio did as well but he'd probably get better under anyone this side of Mariner. Jackson too but he was once a decent player.
- failure to get 'up' for the biggest matches. You come out like that in the first playoff match and against Montreal and there should be questions. It's really inexcusable.
- for a guy who the GM said was put in charge because the previous manager had too many excuses, he sure has a lot of them himself and I accept none of them.


We stay the course and I am willing to bet the 2016 TFC will allow 50 goals against again minimum. It is Vanney's system. That much is clear. No personnel you can afford at the back in MLS will change that.

[tfcleeds]

I expect this thread will be closed in the next few days. He's as good as gone.

[OgtheDim]

With the exception of the goalie in and out (which reminded me of the Jay's post clinch issues), most of what you are saying DM could describe the seasons of Kreis and Arena. (although I dispute the Osorio point - that is squarely on Vanney)

And if they lose tonight, Vermes could be described much the same.

Or Porter if Portland loses.

If Vanney gets tossed for an experienced MLS guy who can meld a team together, I'm OK with that (not a Capello - let NYCFC make that stupid mistake).

But I know darn well we are going to still have issues cause every team has issues.

[Ultra & Proud]

Two good things about Vanney staying all year:

1) not hearing folks say he didn't get a full year to do his plan
2) Timing may be right to land Kreis.

[tfcleeds]

Two good things about Vanney staying all year:

1) not hearing folks say he didn't get a full year to do his plan
2) Timing may be right to land Kreis.

Yeah, Kreis would certainly be an interesting option. He's obviously worked with Manning before, and if rumour has it correct, he didn't quite jive with all the big names at NYCFC.

[Ultra & Proud]

Yeah, Kreis would certainly be an interesting option. He's obviously worked with Manning before, and if rumour has it correct, he didn't quite jive with all the big names at NYCFC.
He jived with Villa just fine but not so much with the two old guys he had forced on him that he never wanted. Now if they signed those two rumoured DPs from down south he wanted instead of the creaky twins who knows what would have happened.

[ag futbol]

Bez deserves another year, vanney doesn't deserve another minute.
No thanks. Too many terrible signings he needs to take responsibility for.

This guy has zero experience evaluating talent prior to this year - hit the eject button already.

[Ultra & Proud]

We will see what kind of guy Manning is this off season. Is he the chance giving, see how it pans out guy or is he the "I want my own guys" guy?

[trane]

Fuck. I am not happy. We had our best year, but it was not good enough, or at least the results were not good enough.

I am not sure how you keep him.

[Ultra & Proud]

Fuck. I am not happy. We had our best year, but it was not good enough, or at least the results were not good enough.

I am not sure how you keep him.

A sensibly run organization wouldn't but here we are. We all know where we are on the sense meter. We ain't gots none.

[MightyDM]

Everyone who is ripping on Vanney, what do you want him to do? If you give the chef rotten ingredients, he will not produce a gourmet meal. Bezbatchenko needs to provide Vanney with players who are capable of providing defense. We are all pissed at the result, and rightfully so. Another year, another disappointment. Until the team has the players that are needed, all the coaching in the world won't make a difference. Garbage, no matter who (read: coach) serves it to us, it's still gonna be garbage.

Vanney made zero adjustments from Sunday, tactically or in personnel. His opposite number made two player adjustments and focussed his tactics based on what worked on Sunday. That's nothing to do with personnel provided by the GM, it's all a difference in coaching.

[jloome]

You think Bez was going after Perquis and Kantari on his own prerogative?

THIS: Vanney played in France. He overestimated the ability of both, probably. And Bez is at least equally to blame, if not totally, for the shit job of scouting these players. When two players show up at a club and the collective expression from fans of their former clubs is SHOCK that they were signed, that's a really bad sign.

A basic lack of professionalism and bad calls on talent. At the very least it should cost Bez his job, as knowing Giovinco was a good signing doens't count for shit, I"m afraid; but I really don't think Vanney ever gave them much chance to win, either. Did we put out the same lineup or tactical setup for more than two games in a row at any time this season? Consistent teams that build together win; our players were moved from spot to spot weekly, dropped in and out of tactical changes, and simply weren't good enough to adapt to whatever it is he was trying to do.

Robbie Fucking Findley? Really? To me, that says it all right there. Because there's no way that was a "bez alone" signing, not when Vanney both played with and coached him.

[ag futbol]

Vanney made zero adjustments from Sunday, tactically or in personnel. His opposite number made two player adjustments and focussed his tactics based on what worked on Sunday. That's nothing to do with personnel provided by the GM, it's all a difference in coaching.
I still want to know what coaching adjustment stops a horrid backpass and a flat footed defender falling over his own feet. Heck what coach would tell his RB to gamble on a less than 50 / 50 ball and leave the back complete exposed if he loses the challenge (which he did).

I am no Vanney fan (would prefer if he didn't come back), but come on, there were plenty of horrid individual errors in addition to tactical problems.


THIS: Vanney played in France. He overestimated the ability of both, probably. And Bez is at least equally to blame, if not totally, for the shit job of scouting these players. When two players show up at a club and the collective expression from fans of their former clubs is SHOCK that they were signed, that's a really bad sign.

A basic lack of professionalism and bad calls on talent. At the very least it should cost Bez his job, as knowing Giovinco was a good signing doens't count for shit, I"m afraid; but I really don't think Vanney ever gave them much chance to win, either. Did we put out the same lineup or tactical setup for more than two games in a row at any time this season? Consistent teams that build together win; our players were moved from spot to spot weekly, dropped in and out of tactical changes, and simply weren't good enough to adapt to whatever it is he was trying to do.

Robbie Fucking Findley? Really? To me, that says it all right there. Because there's no way that was a "bez alone" signing, not when Vanney both played with and coached him.
Quite simply, if Bez wants to call himself GM he needs to take responsibility for what's on the roster. We better hope there is a way out of some of these contracts, otherwise our hopes of getting better in the near future are basically nil.

[MightyDM]

All right, game is over so let me get all my thoughts out on here. I know I will probably get a ton of flak for this, but I'll say it anyways.

In my mind, today's game should mark the end of the Bezbatchenko era. Not Vanney's.

I firmly believe the biggest reason we lost today was because Bez failed to build a structurally sound roster. I think Vanney made mistakes, but overall tried to do the best with what he had. As the guy tasked with building the team, Bez is the one that should bear responsibility for the state of the back line. Who can sit here and honestly tell me Vanney messed up horribly today? What specifically did he get terribly wrong? The formation was the one that's brought us our most success this season; hell, it had us outplaying Montreal for the first half on the weekend and competitive in the 2nd half save for those 10 awful minutes. Back line selection? Morrow is a given. Can we realistically say Zavaleta or Hagglund would have done better than Kantari and Williams? Jackson had a shocker, but who do you stick there instead? Delgado?

Besides Morrow, we've been grasping at straws all season at the back. Could Vanney have coached in a such a way that the back line would have been stronger? I don't know. Maybe. But I think the blame lies with Bez. All of that and we also don't have a midfielder that can sit in front of our CBs and provide an anchor for us to rely on (and yes, we're all thinking of a particular player of that type). That's on Bez too. And we started Robbie fucking Findley at RM today, with no player a significant upgrade on him on the bench (I definitely would have started Delgado or Warner, but it's not like that would have changed much). That's Bez, again.

We have holes everywhere in our lineup, and as a result I have a hard time believing Vanney just coached us out of the playoffs. I think this is a squad issue way before it's a coaching issue, and therefore I think the guy in charge of building the squad should get the axe, not the coach. It's one thing if we have talent pool that should be able to compete with the best but we just can't get it done. It's another thing when the talent pool isn't good enough. I look at the roster we had today and I don't feel like there's some kind of untapped potential. We certainly played below ourselves today, but our best today wouldn't have been a blowout win, it would've been a 1 goal squeaker. Our squad isn't that good. People always talk about how we underachieve, but it's always in the context of the money we spend (which is a little misplaced due to the salary cap and DP rule). On a player-for-player, pound-for-pound evaluation, I don't think we underachieved. I think this is what we are right now.

Now look at Montreal. They have quality depth spread out across their team. Two capable outside backs with an average CB and the best CB in the league. One of the most dangerous and creative midfielders in the league aided by speed on the flanks and defense-first focus in the middle. And a striker that scores nearly every chance, but just as importantly provides unseen levels of hold up play to maintain possession when things get bogged down in the middle of the pitch (seriously - Drogba's hold up play is almost unfairly good, no one else in the league comes anywhere close at all). They have a balanced roster and every midseason signing they made helped them achieve that balance. I suspect I will get hounded for this, but I don't think Biello is some revelation as their coach. Honest truth, I question what evidence there is for him being better than Klopas, or - yeah, I'm gonna say it - Vanney. He plays a simple 4-2-3-1 and his players basically pick themselves. Montreal didn't turn their season around by firing Klopas, they turned it around by signing Drogba, filling in some other pieces, and in the end creating a truly balanced roster. I guarantee you we would have made the playoffs last year if we signed Giovinco when Nelsen was fired. Absolutely guarantee it (we wouldn't have looked as good as Montreal do now because we had a host of other issues, but it would've been enough to get us into the playoffs, that I promise you).

This result proves that Bez utterly failed in building this squad, especially the midseason additions. I love the guy, but signing Gomez was idiotic. We needed a holding mid. And Bez simply signed the wrong guys on defense, and didn't address the hole at RM.

Now. With all of that being said, I'm not completely against the idea of firing Vanney. I think we could bring in someone else and still succeed. I think Bez has to go, or at least has to have zero say in personnel decisions moving forward and someone needs to be brought in for that. But I would be satisfied by keeping Vanney but hiring a new GM. I think overall this is a talent issue, not a coaching issue, and I think we should treat it that way first, and evaluate the coaching second.

Disagree.

[MightyDM]

I still want to know what coaching adjustment stops a horrid backpass and a flat footed defender falling over his own feet. Heck what coach would tell his RB to gamble on a less than 50 / 50 ball and leave the back complete exposed if he loses the challenge (which he did).

I am no Vanney fan (would prefer if he didn't come back), but come on, there were plenty of horrid individual errors in addition to tactical problems.


Quite simply, if Bez wants to call himself GM he needs to take responsibility for what's on the roster. We better hope there is a way out of some of these contracts, otherwise our hopes of getting better in the near future are basically nil.

under Vanney, it's something like 32 out of 42 games that we went behind in the first half. Isn't that enough?

[notthesun]

Disagree.

An inspired response, but I'm going to stick with my view of things. :)

[ag futbol]

under Vanney, it's something like 32 out of 42 games that we went behind in the first half. Isn't that enough?
Well sure, I acknowledge what we've seen so far has left much to be desired. Like you I would rather not see him back.

However, I just don't see this core of defensive players as being acceptable under any coach. Is that a greater issue than Vanney's coaching? I dont' know, probably not, but it's a factor none the less.

[BelfastBoy]

The thread should be called Bez deathwatch thread. I don't blame Vanney at all, he's just a guy given the incompetently built squad. We are not asking to be Liverpool FC here, yet Montreal can embarrass us in the playoffs. We can't even field a respectable playoff effort after nine fucking years.

[molenshtain]

Give him another half-season with an actual backline and defensive midfielder and we'll see.

[JavierMartini]

Has anyone watched footage from the locker room? Vanney issuch an UN inspired monotone robot. He couldn't motivate a guy on speed. I really hope he's gone. I don't know how he could stay inho...

[denime]

Has anyone watched footage from the locker room? Vanney issuch an UN inspired monotone robot. He couldn't motivate a guy on speed. I really hope he's gone. I don't know how he could stay inho...

He is staying,new TFC President worked with him at RSL,he won't fire him after making playoffs for the first time after 9 years in this league.

[DinamoTFC]

Has anyone watched footage from the locker room? Vanney issuch an UN inspired monotone robot. He couldn't motivate a guy on speed. I really hope he's gone. I don't know how he could stay inho...


So true. Have some emotion once in a while when you talk. I think its rubbed off on the players. They looked like they had absolutely no desire to win yesterday. It was shameful. Vanney probably had them singing kumbaya and saying everything will be okay. Light a fire under their ass. Didn't help his tacts and roster line up was exactly the opposite of what I was hopping. This game was a continuation of the second half from last game. Mauro Biello actually made changes and reaped the benefits.

This was just way too painful. Saying this with a calm head but that was absolutely an embarrassing performance. I hope Jason Kreis is available. He's the one coach I think would do great here.

[OgtheDim]

I don't know....Kreis had one situation where he did well and then went to NYCFC and ran into a corporate wall that thinks it knows how to win in this league. He's certainly experienced and can meld a team together. But, he also wants player control and that's not going to happen under the system TFC has set up.

[ronzilla]

He is staying,new TFC President worked with him at RSL,he won't fire him after making playoffs for the first time after 9 years in this league.


It was Giovinco who got the team in the playoffs. Without him, they would have finished at bottom of table. Vanney will b gone, he is not even a coach.

[Ultra & Proud]

It was Giovinco who got the team in the playoffs. Without him, they would have finished at bottom of table. Vanney will b gone, he is not even a coach.
We wouldn't have finished bottom. No way. We would have been around what we were under Nelsen. 40 points or so and out of the playoffs in September but without Seba, Vanney would have been sacked in the summer.

[JohnnyEnglish]

So true. Have some emotion once in a while when you talk. I think its rubbed off on the players. They looked like they had absolutely no desire to win yesterday. It was shameful. Vanney probably had them singing kumbaya and saying everything will be okay. Light a fire under their ass. Didn't help his tacts and roster line up was exactly the opposite of what I was hopping. This game was a continuation of the second half from last game. Mauro Biello actually made changes and reaped the benefits.

This was just way too painful. Saying this with a calm head but that was absolutely an embarrassing performance. I hope Jason Kreis is available. He's the one coach I think would do great here.

Games like last night require your experienced players to step up. The average age of our starting 11 last night was 28.2. Vanney set a poor example, but there wasn't a leader on the field either.

[Canary10]

How many solid CBs have come into the league through the draft in the past 2-3 years? Quite a few. Why do we consistently miss getting one?

I love Herculez but what football purpose did that signing fit? The last thing we needed was to spend $200 plus on another forward. I think Bez decided he is going to make his name in this league repatriating big American names using MLSE's money. And that's not necessarily good for the club.

[Calcio]

Bring in a European coach. People say European coaches do badly, but IIRC the most winningest and third most winningest coaches in league history are European. Furthermore, if you look at European coaches who failed, they are not exactly top end, and many of them coached >10 years ago when the league was much worse.

The solution for TFC is simple. Sign a high end Italian coach who can speak English (English is very important). Italians have historically taken less talented teams, implemented structure, and have gotten them to perform. Vanney on the other hand managed to get a team that had reasonably talented players - two european defenders, 1 european midfielder, the best striker in the league + 2 US MNT players and drove them to very poor performance. It is unfortunate Donadoni was picked up by Bologna.

There are few good coaches available, not sure which speak English:
-Cesare Prandelli - Modern attacking football, led Italy to Euro 2012s, overall a good coach
-Luciano Spalletti - Brought the false 9 to the mainstream, in 2006-2007, all of his strikers were hurt so he put Totti as a lone striker, and implemented one of the first false 9 systems, and roma went on a huge unbeaten streak.
-Vincenzo Montella - Good coach, flexible tactics, not too defensive, coached a successful Fiorentina team until having a fall out with management.

Stay away from:
-Fabio Capello - Way too old school, strict 4-4-2 system, successful way too long ago
-Zdenek Zeman - Born in Czech republic, but moved to Italy in 1968, strategy is all out attack 4-3-3, which I think would make the problem worse

[Calcio]

How many solid CBs have come into the league through the draft in the past 2-3 years? Quite a few. Why do we consistently miss getting one?

I love Herculez but what football purpose did that signing fit? The last thing we needed was to spend $200 plus on another forward. I think Bez decided he is going to make his name in this league repatriating big American names using MLSE's money. And that's not necessarily good for the club.

Honestly, Kantari & Perquis should have been sufficient. Both have played at high level. It has got to be the midfield (no DM) and the coaching.

If it's up to me, say bye to Altidore. Use the core DP on a CAM from South America, and use the other DP spot on a good DM. CBs can be signed at reasonable valuations for decent sums of $.

[Ultra & Proud]

If it were me I would say 100% no to any Euro manager. Different league, different rules, different operation. Many have tried and failed and the bigger the name from bigger the league will be bigger the flop. Plus we don't need the roster completely overhauled and filled with a few Cheyrou level Euro players and scrubs because the new guy and team will have no idea the talent level at each MLS position. We did this with Winter and other teams gave bombed with their own experiments.

And no high risk DPs from elsewhere either unless DM. They are all a dice roll.

[Fort York Redcoat]

Bon voyage, Vanney. We gave you a full season. You were a snappy dresser.

[Canary10]

The biggest game in our history was essentially over in 20 minutes. There has to be something happening at a coaching level for a team to be that flat.

[JohnnyEnglish]

Bring in a European coach. People say European coaches do badly, but IIRC the most winningest and third most winningest coaches in league history are European. Furthermore, if you look at European coaches who failed, they are not exactly top end, and many of them coached >10 years ago when the league was much worse.

The solution for TFC is simple. Sign a high end Italian coach who can speak English (English is very important). Italians have historically taken less talented teams, implemented structure, and have gotten them to perform. Vanney on the other hand managed to get a team that had reasonably talented players - two european defenders, 1 european midfielder, the best striker in the league + 2 US MNT players and drove them to very poor performance. It is unfortunate Donadoni was picked up by Bologna.

There are few good coaches available, not sure which speak English:
-Cesare Prandelli - Modern attacking football, led Italy to Euro 2012s, overall a good coach
-Luciano Spalletti - Brought the false 9 to the mainstream, in 2006-2007, all of his strikers were hurt so he put Totti as a lone striker, and implemented one of the first false 9 systems, and roma went on a huge unbeaten streak.
-Vincenzo Montella - Good coach, flexible tactics, not too defensive, coached a successful Fiorentina team until having a fall out with management.

Stay away from:
-Fabio Capello - Way too old school, strict 4-4-2 system, successful way too long ago
-Zdenek Zeman - Born in Czech republic, but moved to Italy in 1968, strategy is all out attack 4-3-3, which I think would make the problem worse

That list of names isn't realistic though.
The problem being pulling a top tier manager to a second tier league isn't easy, let alone to a club lacking stability with a revolving door of head coaches.

[Detroit_TFC]

The biggest game in our history was essentially over in 20 minutes. There has to be something happening at a coaching level for a team to be that flat.

It's possible to explain away some individual problems. Williams slipping and setting up the 2nd goal was a fuck up. But looking at the last three games as a whole, it has all the signs of a collapse of confidence.

More: the thing that I struggle with is, how could things go so right in the game vs RB and then so wrong everything after?

[Ossington Mental Youth]

Vanney made zero adjustments from Sunday, tactically or in personnel. His opposite number made two player adjustments and focussed his tactics based on what worked on Sunday. That's nothing to do with personnel provided by the GM, it's all a difference in coaching.

definitely an isseu for me, that being said he has in the past shown the capability and know how to make adjustments. I give him another year, think we would be repeating our mistakes if we fired him. Kreis is tempting tho but also feel we would have to fire Bez too. Dont think we need to do a whole make over yet again after our best season to date. Once again ill refer to Kreis' first year and following years.

[Ossington Mental Youth]

Do think that at the time we tried adn thought we had addressed our defensive issues which we obviously didnt. Itll be a big issue for Bez and Vanney to deal with in hte post season. Big question will be whether we can get rid of Kantari before his contract is done, otherwise we are gonna have like 8 CBs on our roster with a new one coming in. Also i do hold how much Findlay played against Vanney, bit worried he stays on with his inflated contract.

[Oldtimer]

I dunno if we should blame Vanney, he's not a great manager but he's adequate for this league and he has really crappy players to work with for his backline. He's also been learning and progressing, he's better than he was last year.

I dunno if we should blame Bez. it's pretty clear that Lieweke interfered pretty much with the roster, and insisted on hiring 3 big name DPs. Having so much tied up in 3 offensive players (who are away all of the time for their NT games) results in having almost no cap space (salary budget) for the defenders and a decimated roster every time FIFA dates roll around.

So I think Lieweke should go. Handily, he already is heading out the door.

I would replace Vanney at this point only if someone playing a very similar style (Kreis) would be coming in. I would 100% support Kreis with Vanney back to an assistant role. Vanney is still learning, he has grown a lot and will eventually be a decent coach.

OTOH, I would not be surprised at all if Vanney is given the heave-ho. It's a game of results.

[billyfly]

A coach shouldn't be able to survive this. Sorry.

[T-boy]

It was Giovinco who got the team in the playoffs. Without him, they would have finished at bottom of table. Vanney will b gone, he is not even a coach.

That argument doesn't make sense as if we didn't have Giovinco we would have had something (one good player, 2 or 3 much better defensive players etc) in place of him.

Let's say we didn't have Giovinco but had 2 good quality MLS centre backs for the same amount of Cap value - we wouldn't have been last as the defense would have been better.

[T-boy]

I dunno if we should blame Vanney, he's not a great manager but he's adequate for this league and he has really crappy players to work with for his backline. He's also been learning and progressing, he's better than he was last year.

I dunno if we should blame Bez. it's pretty clear that Lieweke interfered pretty much with the roster, and insisted on hiring 3 big name DPs. Having so much tied up in 3 offensive players (who are away all of the time for their NT games) results in having almost no cap space (salary budget) for the defenders and a decimated roster every time FIFA dates roll around.

So I think Lieweke should go. Handily, he already is heading out the door.

I would replace Vanney at this point only if someone playing a very similar style (Kreis) would be coming in. I would 100% support Kreis with Vanney back to an assistant role. Vanney is still learning, he has grown a lot and will eventually be a decent coach.

OTOH, I would not be surprised at all if Vanney is given the heave-ho. It's a game of results.

Oldtimer always makes sense :)

I just see it this way: Vanney got us to the play offs for the first time in our history. He was asking to get to the play offs, and he succeeded. Firing him would be like saying "you did what we asked for, but its still not good enough, goodbye". So then what would have been "good enough". Second round of play offs? Third round? Finalist? Winner? Where does the "success" barrier fall?

It always hurts losing in a competition, no matter where you fail. And I tell all you guys - I've been to a Wembley Cup final and saw my team loose - it doesn't feel ANY better going all the way and losing - you may as well fail earlier. And I suspect that many of you guys would still say "Vanney out" even if they got to the final and lost. It hurts - but being emotionally reactive isn't the answer.

Vanney got us to the play offs for the first ever time in our history. In my opinion that indicates that is is more than capable of getting to the play offs next season too. He will be a better coach next season, he will have a better defence next season, there is no reason whatsoever to believe he couldn't get to the play offs again.

However, we get another coach now, that coach will almost certainly rip this squad apart and we will start over again. Chances of play offs next season if we do that - I would say much lower than keeping Vanney - who has proved he can get us there.

Vanney In.

(just my opinion!).

[Detroit_TFC]

Small consolation but IMO next season, even the worst that Vanney can do to mess up won't compare to how big a train wreck Capello would be at NYCFC.

[Hamilton_Red]

I feel sorry for Vanney. He had been assistant coach at Chivas, the least desirable team in MLS. Out if the blue he gets picked to be Head Coach of TFC and given the richest payroll in the league. Who wouldn't say yes and give it a go? For me it's not about the lack of quality of the back four - defending starts in the mid-field and is about a team system. This is the coach first and foremost. He has abdicated his responsibility.

So should he replaced? Of course and we should be prepared to pay DP money to get the right coach. I don't by the stupid "has to have MLS experience " - they have to be a good proven soccer coach. I'd put the boat out for Carl Robinson and possibly 2-3 other MLS coaches... Unlikely to be able to get the best guys. Then look to Europe for a very good manager with something to prove there are many good available coaches there. I don't trust this organization to transition a new manager in though . Likely to fire him spend 2-3 months searching and appoint an underwhelming manager late in the post season.

[starter]

Bring in a European coach. People say European coaches do badly, but IIRC the most winningest and third most winningest coaches in league history are European. Furthermore, if you look at European coaches who failed, they are not exactly top end, and many of them coached >10 years ago when the league was much worse.

The solution for TFC is simple. Sign a high end Italian coach who can speak English (English is very important). Italians have historically taken less talented teams, implemented structure, and have gotten them to perform. Vanney on the other hand managed to get a team that had reasonably talented players - two european defenders, 1 european midfielder, the best striker in the league + 2 US MNT players and drove them to very poor performance. It is unfortunate Donadoni was picked up by Bologna.

There are few good coaches available, not sure which speak English:
-Cesare Prandelli - Modern attacking football, led Italy to Euro 2012s, overall a good coach
-Luciano Spalletti - Brought the false 9 to the mainstream, in 2006-2007, all of his strikers were hurt so he put Totti as a lone striker, and implemented one of the first false 9 systems, and roma went on a huge unbeaten streak.
-Vincenzo Montella - Good coach, flexible tactics, not too defensive, coached a successful Fiorentina team until having a fall out with management.

Stay away from:
-Fabio Capello - Way too old school, strict 4-4-2 system, successful way too long ago
-Zdenek Zeman - Born in Czech republic, but moved to Italy in 1968, strategy is all out attack 4-3-3, which I think would make the problem worse


Hope the new boss would go with experience.
It is tiring ( and insult to football IMHO ) to see the team with the highest payroll run by amateurs. :hide:

[Ultra & Proud]

I dunno if we should blame Vanney, he's not a great manager but he's adequate for this league and he has really crappy players to work with for his backline. He's also been learning and progressing, he's better than he was last year.

I dunno if we should blame Bez. it's pretty clear that Lieweke interfered pretty much with the roster, and insisted on hiring 3 big name DPs. Having so much tied up in 3 offensive players (who are away all of the time for their NT games) results in having almost no cap space (salary budget) for the defenders and a decimated roster every time FIFA dates roll around.

So I think Lieweke should go. Handily, he already is heading out the door.

I would replace Vanney at this point only if someone playing a very similar style (Kreis) would be coming in. I would 100% support Kreis with Vanney back to an assistant role. Vanney is still learning, he has grown a lot and will eventually be a decent coach.

OTOH, I would not be surprised at all if Vanney is given the heave-ho. It's a game of results.
First, I think Vanney should go. Is he an adequate MLS level manager? If by adequate you mean mediocre then yes. His personality matches the team. Drab and middle of the road. 15 wins, 15 losses, 58 goals for, 58 goals against, 11-5-1 home, 4-10-3 away. That right there is mediocre. He has had more than one season to correct the defensive issues and nothing was done. He is at Downsview every day so I assume he should recognize the short comings of the defenders we (but mostly he) acquired and if a good manager knew the problems then he would alter the game plan to cover those weaknesses. Do all the teams have cracker CBs and FBs? No, a lot of them are shit too but the difference is that the manager doesn't stick to his game plan of sending FBs forward and not giving the back line cover. That's Vanney. Not getting the team up for the biggest matches in our history? That's Vanney too. He carries the most blame on the squad.

Second is Bez and he is very close to going. Yes TL stuck his nose in and yeah, we got DPs but if they fell in any MLS GM's lap and the funds were there then all of them would have done the same. Actually of the 3 the only one that the whole league may not have taken prior to this season was Seba as he was expensive and an unknown quantity in MLS. Anyone would have taken a Bradley/Altidore combo. The Bez issue is the next level of player. Kantari, Perquis, Cheyrou, Findley, Moore, & Gomez all add up to well over $1M and despite some good moments from Perquis (occasionally) and Cheyrou (early in the year), that is a lot of money wasted with not much in return. Yes the DPs cost a mil on their own against the cap but right there in these players there is more money being wasted for a lot less. Is Jozy the best FW? No, but he is good MLS quality. For the $400K-ish he costs against the cap he provides WAY more than Findley, Moore, & Gomez for less and that's where the mismanagement is. If you scan Bez's history at mid level signings his track record is very poor. As long as that is poor then we will be shit as that is the difference between a shite/mediocre MLS squad to an elite one.

Lastly Lieweke is going to Beckham-land so that sorts itself without much hassle and we now have a president who knows what's going on in the league. That is a plus right there.

[Ultra & Proud]

I feel sorry for Vanney. He had been assistant coach at Chivas, the least desirable team in MLS. Out if the blue he gets picked to be Head Coach of TFC and given the richest payroll in the league. Who wouldn't say yes and give it a go?
That didn't happen though. He got brought in to head the academy as that was his level of experience and then got promoted when they sacked Nelsen.

[Yohan]

Either Bradley or Vanney needs to go. I said it earlier in the season, but Vanney does not command the locker room. Bradley has far too influence on how things are run for merely a player.

Now that Tim L is gone, either Bradley gets sold or traded, or Vanney gets sacked. There can be only one leader calling the shots.

[starter]

Either Bradley or Vanney needs to go. I said it earlier in the season, but Vanney does not command the locker room. Bradley has far too influence on how things are run for merely a player.

Now that Tim L is gone, either Bradley gets sold or traded, or Vanney gets sacked. There can be only one leader calling the shots.

Not a fan of Bradley ( vs. say Laba ), but Vanney, being a nice guy, is over his head.
There is no point in developing coaches, since you can not sell them
There is a business case to get a good coach to develop players, and have a shot at entertaining fans in progress.

[Oldtimer]

So should he replaced? Of course and we should be prepared to pay DP money to get the right coach. I don't by the stupid "has to have MLS experience " - they have to be a good proven soccer coach. I'd put the boat out for Carl Robinson and possibly 2-3 other MLS coaches... Unlikely to be able to get the best guys. Then look to Europe for a very good manager with something to prove there are many good available coaches there. I don't trust this organization to transition a new manager in though . Likely to fire him spend 2-3 months searching and appoint an underwhelming manager late in the post season.

The record for European coaches without North American experience is terrible. Only 1 or 2 have ever made it beyond a year or two. (The obvious differences from European leagues is that you have multi-million dollar players playing alongside guys making $60k, you can't just buy a good player due to roster/cap restrictions -- most Euro coaches can't handle those things), PLUS you are looking at minimum 2 years to rebuild the team in the new coach's vision. So no playoffs next year. The idea just speaks of desperation: we can't attract much MLS talent so "lets just get someone from Europe and hope that it works against all odds."

If NYCFC are stupid enough to fire Kreis, though, I'd pick him up in a heart beat.

A truly good MLS coach is hard to find. If they were truly good they wouldn't be in MLS for the most part.

[GreatWhiteNorth]

You think Bez was going after Perquis and Kantari on his own prerogative?

I don't know how the responsibility divides up, and am not going to speculate. But the last thing we need is to turn over yet another coach. You cannot blame the coach for some of the mindless passing fails we had, you cannot blame him for seven guys ball watching while Drogba stands freely to knock in a ball. That shoes me a lack of discipline on the player's part. If you see five or six guys boxing an attacker, you don't need to join the crowd, look for outside threats. My feeling is changing the coach is not the answer. I don't feel firing Bezbatchenko is the answer either. You can coach people, but coaching does NOT bestow talent, intuition, or common sense upon a player. Whatever happens in the off-season, will happen without our consent, influence or involvement of any kind. All I hope for is to see a better defense next year. Giovinco cannot carry this team on his shoulders again like this.

[Areathrasher]

Not a fan of Bradley ( vs. say Laba ), but Vanney, being a nice guy, is over his head.
There is no point in developing coaches, since you can not sell them
There is a business case to get a good coach to develop players, and have a shot at entertaining fans in progress.

You absolutely can sell coaches.

Porto got 13m from Chelsea for AVB
Swansea got 5m from Liverpool for Rogers.

There are plenty more examples but im too tired and hungover to remember harder :lol:

[Ultra & Proud]

The more I think about it, the more I think Vanney & Bez should go.

Vanney for not adjusting the tactics to cover the defense, for not inspiring the squad, and for looking inept tactically at more times than a team with ambition can afford.

Bez for his poor record at signing decent mid level MLS talent.

[starter]

You absolutely can sell coaches.

Porto got 13m from Chelsea for AVB
Swansea got 5m from Liverpool for Rogers.

There are plenty more examples but im too tired and hungover to remember harder :lol:

I stand corrected, but still still think developing coach is an inferior business proposition vs getting a developed coach.

[Areathrasher]

I'm leaning that way too.

Orlando will improve. The Union and Fire have made competent hires and could be on the upswing next season. Have a feeling the East won't be such a mess next year.

[shwade]

As I said many months ago...for the quality we're getting from Bradley and Altidore we are being severely fucked. 2 more Giovinco for that price.

[Ultra & Proud]

It's all very simple; we overpay everywhere accept at the manager and GK positions.

Dump a truck load of money on Kreis' doorstep after he gets the sack and then sign a real GK with the savings we should get from dumping one of Perquis or Kantari.

Then start looking at a TAM DM and the re-entry draft to hopefully get MLS quality mid-level salary players and maybe even a pricey but MLS proven CB.

[Chevy]

MLS is a capped league. When you ignore all the buzz about high value DP signings, success comes from how that cap is managed and what you get from your core non-DP players.

To win, you need to have guys making $75k play like they are worth $150k and guys making $150k play like they are worth $300k. That's where the manager comes in - to add value to that capped roster. I watched the other playoff games, and those clubs really don't have more quality than TFC. They are also dealing with the same cap we are, have injuries and overpaid players too.

The difference is that they are just more organized, efficient and play as a unit. They have a group of guys making two million that play like they are worth three or four. That's on the manager, and where we consistently get burned.

[pdubs]

What about scouting? Our scouting dept. Under Nelson/Vanney seems to consist of who they once played with or saw. Scouting for Giovinco or Bradley is easy. Seems like identifying competent MLS level talent is has always been an issue.

With our resources we should have a top player acquisition model in place but it seems we let our managers see who is on their cell phone. Is this a Bez issue or does he merely get the contracts completed once the manager decides who he wants?

[C.Ronaldo]

What about scouting? Our scouting dept. Under Nelson/Vanney seems to consist of who they once played with or saw. Scouting for Giovinco or Bradley is easy. Seems like identifying competent MLS level talent is has always been an issue.

With our resources we should have a top player acquisition model in place but it seems we let our managers see who is on their cell phone. Is this a Bez issue or does he merely get the contracts completed once the manager decides who he wants?

they scounted Findley

and discovered the diamond in the rough Kantari

to be fair they did find cheyrou, delgado, zavaleta and williams (who is a shit starter but good enough for depth)

The problem seems to be they are really hit and miss

[pdubs]

they scounted Findley

and discovered the diamond in the rough Kantari

to be fair they did find cheyrou, delgado, zavaleta and williams (who is a shit starter but good enough for depth)

The problem seems to be they are really hit and miss

Zavaleta is Vanney's cousin. Delgado I like and was a good pickup, Vanney knew him from Chivas. Williams is fine.

Kantari, Perquis and Cheyrou all have the french connection. First two Vanney played with, not sure about Cheyrou who I love but we need him 4 years younger.

My point is I have not seen any evidence of a scouting network Bez was apparently put in place other then who the manager at the time has already in his cell phone. Perquis and Kantari's resumes do not jump out at you for how they can be that stud CB we need. The mood on both of them were more of ???

Findley was a gamble on 250k or so.

To me the problem is their is very little evidence of ay kind of real scouting. Kevin Payne when he came in apparently saw we had zero scouting. Have not seen much evidence any is in place since that point.

[Lennon]

As I said many months ago...for the quality we're getting from Bradley and Altidore we are being severely fucked. 2 more Giovinco for that price.

+1000

Why the hell are we (as a Canadian team) overpaying for US internationals?! It makes no sense.

There are so many holes in this team, and that's on Bez. We played all year without a natural RB ffs.

We need to get younger and be smarter in the transfer market. Cheyrou and Morrow are getting up there in age so you can expect their performers to dip.

Who's in charge of player aquisitions at FC Dallas/NYRB/DC United? Get those guys. Imagine what they could do with our budget ..

[Leedsoronto]

The record for European coaches without North American experience is terrible. Only 1 or 2 have ever made it beyond a year or two. (The obvious differences from European leagues is that you have multi-million dollar players playing alongside guys making $60k, you can't just buy a good player due to roster/cap restrictions -- most Euro coaches can't handle those things), PLUS you are looking at minimum 2 years to rebuild the team in the new coach's vision. So no playoffs next year. The idea just speaks of desperation: we can't attract much MLS talent so "lets just get someone from Europe and hope that it works against all odds."

If NYCFC are stupid enough to fire Kreis, though, I'd pick him up in a heart beat.

A truly good MLS coach is hard to find. If they were truly good they wouldn't be in MLS for the most part.

2 year to rebuild? Montreal did it rather much faster
Last in 2014 now in the semis of the MLS cup

[David_Oliveira]

IMHO, I don't think we do have many holes on the team except for at CB and depth players. This week came down to being out managed. The difference is that Biello was able to adjust to how we were playing after 1 half (on Sunday) while after 2 games we couldn't adjust to how Mtl was playing. After seeing that Findley could not play infront of Jackson in the second half of Sunday's game, what did Vanney do? NOTHING. That is where the problem lies. Vanney cannot adjust to changes made over the course of the game. We made 0 adjustments from Sunday and got exposed hard for ineptness. Would have loved to see us line up like this:

Konopka
Morrow/Williams/Zavaleta/Morgan
Jackson/Bradley/ Cheyrou/Osorio
Altidore/Giovinco

Jackson wouldn't have as much of a defensive responsibility with Morrow in behind him.

[Ultra & Proud]

As I said many months ago...for the quality we're getting from Bradley and Altidore we are being severely fucked. 2 more Giovinco for that price.
We would get more from them with a proper manager and set up.

And with the cap what it is you could get two more Giovinco's for Kantari, Perquis, and Lovitz's salaries. That's where the failure is.

[starter]

We need a coach who has failed before and learned from his mistakes to stay in this business.
It would be nice to get one of a few experienced with MLS ones, but if not, ANY experienced ( European or SA ) coach is way better than the ones TFC consistently chooses to hire.

[Ultra & Proud]

I read that Larsun article and even he was critical of Vanney. You know it's bad when that happens.

[Super]

The record for European coaches without North American experience is terrible. Only 1 or 2 have ever made it beyond a year or two. (The obvious differences from European leagues is that you have multi-million dollar players playing alongside guys making $60k, you can't just buy a good player due to roster/cap restrictions -- most Euro coaches can't handle those things), PLUS you are looking at minimum 2 years to rebuild the team in the new coach's vision. So no playoffs next year. The idea just speaks of desperation: we can't attract much MLS talent so "lets just get someone from Europe and hope that it works against all odds."

If NYCFC are stupid enough to fire Kreis, though, I'd pick him up in a heart beat.

A truly good MLS coach is hard to find. If they were truly good they wouldn't be in MLS for the most part.

How many experienced, successful European coaches have been here? Not that many. Lots of inexperienced guys, and of course they failed. No experience = poor management/tactics. Just like we see at our club. I would be all for signing a proper, experienced coach (with a winning record) from anywhere in the world who knows how to set the proper tactics and motivate a team to want to win. That's a HUGE part of coaching.

[Oldtimer]

2 year to rebuild? Montreal did it rather much faster
Last in 2014 now in the semis of the MLS cup

Joey has hired coaches who have similar philosophies to each other. Find someone like that for Toronto and I'm on-side for replacing Vanney. Vanney's problem is not with the overall theory of how to have a winning team (he copied it from Kreis). It's his lack of experience. I'd choose the real Kreis over the imitation any day.

[Oldtimer]

How many experienced, successful European coaches have been here? Not that many. Lots of inexperienced guys, and of course they failed. No experience = poor management/tactics. Just like we see at our club. I would be all for signing a proper, experienced coach (with a winning record) from anywhere in the world who knows how to set the proper tactics and motivate a team to want to win. That's a HUGE part of coaching.

I'm not talking about Toronto. European coaches, even very experienced ones have almost always failed anywhere in MLS.

[starter]

I'm not talking about Toronto. European coaches, even very experienced ones have almost always failed anywhere in MLS.

If we must get back to this argument, would that be still fair to say that far more inexperienced coaches failed in this league, than experienced ( European ) coaches?

[Fort York Redcoat]

Who's fighting for the next Andorran or Luxembourgan manager? If he's successful get em over here ASAP!

[Ultra & Proud]

Who's fighting for the next Andorran or Luxembourgan manager? If he's successful get em over here ASAP!
At least they'd be used to managing scrubs.

[starter]

Who's fighting for the next Andorran or Luxembourgan manager? If he's successful get em over here ASAP!

Is there such thing as a successful Andorran or Luxembourgan manager?

If TFC is in the market for European players, it is not a crime to check out coaches who can actually manage these players.

[Fort York Redcoat]

Is there such thing as a successful Andorran or Luxembourgan manager?

If TFC is in the market for European players, it is not a crime to check out coaches who can actually manage these players.

No crime committed. Just commenting what's in Europe is more than 4 countries.

[Ossington Mental Youth]

Oldtimer always makes sense :)

I just see it this way: Vanney got us to the play offs for the first time in our history. He was asking to get to the play offs, and he succeeded. Firing him would be like saying "you did what we asked for, but its still not good enough, goodbye". So then what would have been "good enough". Second round of play offs? Third round? Finalist? Winner? Where does the "success" barrier fall?

It always hurts losing in a competition, no matter where you fail. And I tell all you guys - I've been to a Wembley Cup final and saw my team loose - it doesn't feel ANY better going all the way and losing - you may as well fail earlier. And I suspect that many of you guys would still say "Vanney out" even if they got to the final and lost. It hurts - but being emotionally reactive isn't the answer.

Vanney got us to the play offs for the first ever time in our history. In my opinion that indicates that is is more than capable of getting to the play offs next season too. He will be a better coach next season, he will have a better defence next season, there is no reason whatsoever to believe he couldn't get to the play offs again.

However, we get another coach now, that coach will almost certainly rip this squad apart and we will start over again. Chances of play offs next season if we do that - I would say much lower than keeping Vanney - who has proved he can get us there.

Vanney In.

(just my opinion!).

yep and what will people want if we get Kreis/another coach and he gives us the exact same thing or something similar next year?
Fire the coach?
Remember how thats worked for us for the last 9 years?

[Calcio]

That list of names isn't realistic though.
The problem being pulling a top tier manager to a second tier league isn't easy, let alone to a club lacking stability with a revolving door of head coaches.
I said that about Giovinco as a Juve fan last winter. Money talks, and all of those guys are unemployed. Spalletti last coached in Russia (which isn't exactly a highly coveted location), Prandelli in Turkey, and well Montella is an exception.

You've seen stranger moves, such as Marcelo Lippi going to China. IMO Spalletti would make a lot of sense.

Now for a mini-rant:

As for the constant comments on European coaches failing in MLS, there are only 3 points you need to completely de-bunk that:
-The coaches that have coached in MLS that are European are 2nd tier - most without any real top-flight experience.
-Most of this "poor performance" happened between 10-15 years ago, which given the growth of the league and players is not comparable at all.
-Not all European coaches are equivalent: lumping Italian, German, Spanish, Portuguese, and English all together makes no sense, because the styles of play in those games are completely different. An obvious example here would be the emphasis on tactics that Italian coaches place vs. English coaches.

With TFC the issue is defensive organization, which Italians are specialists in, so it certainly wouldn't hurt. The key is ensuring the coach is experienced, can contribute to the personnel selection, and can speak English. The argument against European coaches is as weak as the argument suggesting Giovinco would be a flop because the MLS is too physical. Fact is Europe is where the best coaches are, so if you want the best, go to Europe.

[Calcio]

What about scouting? Our scouting dept. Under Nelson/Vanney seems to consist of who they once played with or saw. Scouting for Giovinco or Bradley is easy. Seems like identifying competent MLS level talent is has always been an issue.

With our resources we should have a top player acquisition model in place but it seems we let our managers see who is on their cell phone. Is this a Bez issue or does he merely get the contracts completed once the manager decides who he wants?

My theory is that until Giovinco's press conference, the entire front office & coaching staff thought he was an attacking midfielder instead of a striker. The team's player acquisition outside the obvious ones has been relatively poor. I mean the team has way too many strikers...we played a 4-2-3-1 yesterday with 3 strikers on the field. Gio

[shwade]

We would get more from them with a proper manager and set up.

And with the cap what it is you could get two more Giovinco's for Kantari, Perquis, and Lovitz's salaries. That's where the failure is.

In terms of DP quality though - 2 more game changers like Gio would've thrown us in to the Supporters Shield race even with our shitty D.

[Calcio]

The record for European coaches without North American experience is terrible. Only 1 or 2 have ever made it beyond a year or two. (The obvious differences from European leagues is that you have multi-million dollar players playing alongside guys making $60k, you can't just buy a good player due to roster/cap restrictions -- most Euro coaches can't handle those things), PLUS you are looking at minimum 2 years to rebuild the team in the new coach's vision. So no playoffs next year. The idea just speaks of desperation: we can't attract much MLS talent so "lets just get someone from Europe and hope that it works against all odds."

If NYCFC are stupid enough to fire Kreis, though, I'd pick him up in a heart beat.

A truly good MLS coach is hard to find. If they were truly good they wouldn't be in MLS for the most part.

You don't need to completely overhaul a team. Look at Napoli this year. They hired an Italian coach in Sarri to replace Rafa Benitez, a much more prestigious manager. Sarri kept the team mostly the same, except for a couple of role players that he brought over from Empoli. He is taking a defense that leaked goals and making them one of the better ones in the league just through tactical improvement. The offense has also been on fire, despite Benitez playing a more offensive system.

Ultimately, replacing Vanney with a coach who can organize the team will pay dividends immediately.

As for your comment on European coaches, as I've said already:
1) Not all of Europe is the same...Italians are much more tactically inclined vs. England for example
2) The coaches that have come over often had limited top flight experience and were coming from academies/were first coaching gigs
3) The majority of these were >10 years ago when the league was smaller, the talent was less, and there were less internationals
4) There aren't that many coaches to actually come over, so the sample size is very small.

[burlington Red]

My theory is that until Giovinco's press conference, the entire front office & coaching staff thought he was an attacking midfielder instead of a striker. The team's player acquisition outside the obvious ones has been relatively poor. I mean the team has way too many strikers...we played a 4-2-3-1 yesterday with 3 strikers on the field. Gio

Similiar issue with Perquis, they thought they were getting the 2008-2012 version who played regularly for Sochaux and not the 2012-2015 version who was ravaged by injuries at Real Betis. Once you get past 30, these constant injuries take their toll on the body and we have seen that from Perquis this season. He has shown in glimpses his quality at times but that's not enough considering what he makes in a salary capped league.

[Ultra & Proud]

In terms of DP quality though - 2 more game changers like Gio would've thrown us in to the Supporters Shield race even with our shitty D.
I disagree. That always catches up to you when things get tight. You build a solid back and instill a good shape like we had with Nelsen (but with a different manager) and then add a Seba and then you get places.

[denime]

Oldtimer always makes sense :)

I just see it this way: Vanney got us to the play offs for the first time in our history. He was asking to get to the play offs, and he succeeded. Firing him would be like saying "you did what we asked for, but its still not good enough, goodbye". So then what would have been "good enough". Second round of play offs? Third round? Finalist? Winner? Where does the "success" barrier fall?

It always hurts losing in a competition, no matter where you fail. And I tell all you guys - I've been to a Wembley Cup final and saw my team loose - it doesn't feel ANY better going all the way and losing - you may as well fail earlier. And I suspect that many of you guys would still say "Vanney out" even if they got to the final and lost. It hurts - but being emotionally reactive isn't the answer.

Vanney got us to the play offs for the first ever time in our history. In my opinion that indicates that is is more than capable of getting to the play offs next season too. He will be a better coach next season, he will have a better defence next season, there is no reason whatsoever to believe he couldn't get to the play offs again.

However, we get another coach now, that coach will almost certainly rip this squad apart and we will start over again. Chances of play offs next season if we do that - I would say much lower than keeping Vanney - who has proved he can get us there.

Vanney In.

(just my opinion!).

Agree, Vanney should stay, why go from scratch again? New coach, new players ,finding the system,getting to know each other,how is that better,than what we have right now?

[T-boy]

I'd love to know who this European coach is who has bags of experience in a top league and has been successful and knows how to manage in the most unique league in the soccer world is.

Why isn't he already in the MLS coaching and making that team a fantastic team?

I say cos he probably doesn't exist!

Oh hang on - Owen Coyle managed a team to the Championship playoff win - oh the heady heights! :p

[Ultra & Proud]

1) Not all of Europe is the same...Italians are much more tactically inclined vs. England for example
2) The coaches that have come over often had limited top flight experience and were coming from academies/were first coaching gigs
3) The majority of these were >10 years ago when the league was smaller, the talent was less, and there were less internationals
4) There aren't that many coaches to actually come over, so the sample size is very small.

This is where problems arise. You're talking about managers who expect a certain level of awareness and skill from players. They don't get that here from all positions and you can't with the cap. You make do with what you can afford. That's where these managers get lost. This concept is hard to wrap their heads around. They will churn through players looking for what they see as quality but it will never come so you spin tires, waste time, and get nowhere (see Aron Winter).

As for getting academy coaches, it's actually better than established managers as they are used to working with kids and players with less knowledge and skill but neither ever pan out and that's why you don't see many of them.

[starter]

Agree, Vanney should stay, why go from scratch again? New coach, new players ,finding the system,getting to know each other,how is that better,than what we have right now?
There are at least 1/2 dozen of players who should not be here next season, that could open about a million in cap space, more then enough for a new manager to bring in his choices without disrupting the chemistry, if there was any.

[Oldtimer]

Agree, Vanney should stay, why go from scratch again? New coach, new players ,finding the system,getting to know each other,how is that better,than what we have right now?

The one thing that TFC hasn't tried is sticking with a coach for a few years. Teams that fail in this league have coaching turnover in common.


I'd love to know who this European coach is who has bags of experience in a top league and has been successful and knows how to manage in the most unique league in the soccer world is.

Why isn't he already in the MLS coaching and making that team a fantastic team?

I say cos he probably doesn't exist!

Oh hang on - Owen Coyle managed a team to the Championship playoff win - oh the heady heights! :p

ha-ha this is what people here are missing.


You don't need to completely overhaul a team. Look at Napoli this year. They hired an Italian coach in Sarri to replace Rafa Benitez, a much more prestigious manager. Sarri kept the team mostly the same, except for a couple of role players that he brought over from Empoli. He is taking a defense that leaked goals and making them one of the better ones in the league just through tactical improvement. The offense has also been on fire, despite Benitez playing a more offensive system.

Ultimately, replacing Vanney with a coach who can organize the team will pay dividends immediately.

As for your comment on European coaches, as I've said already:
1) Not all of Europe is the same...Italians are much more tactically inclined vs. England for example
2) The coaches that have come over often had limited top flight experience and were coming from academies/were first coaching gigs
3) The majority of these were >10 years ago when the league was smaller, the talent was less, and there were less internationals
4) There aren't that many coaches to actually come over, so the sample size is very small.

How well did it work for LA when they brought in a Dutch coach (we won't count Winter at TFC as he lacked experience)? The problem is American players couldn't play "total football."

Guess what? Americans/Canadians can't play Italian calcio (unless like Michael Bradley they actually had experience there). Neither can they play French football or even English football.

A foreign coach will come in assuming a skillset that most of his players don't have.

[Calcio]

The one thing that TFC hasn't tried is sticking with a coach for a few years. Teams that fail in this league have coaching turnover in common.



ha-ha this is what people here are missing.



How well did it work for LA when they brought in a Dutch coach (we won't count Winter at TFC as he lacked experience)? The problem is American players couldn't play "total football."

Guess what? Americans/Canadians can't play Italian calcio (unless like Michael Bradley they actually had experience there). Neither can they play French football or even English football.

A foreign coach will come in assuming a skillset that most of his players don't have.

Ruud Gullit?
He's not a coach. He is a former player who managed Feyenoord for less than a year with a mediocre performance.

I stand by my argument that there have been NO real high quality coaches. Either former players/academy coaches with limited experiences.

As for Dutch style, I agree. Playing total football is a challenge. As for "calcio", calcio could be much more easily implemented. Calcio doesn't require incredible skill. In fact, Italians have the reputation for winning with less talent.

And lastly, if you look at the team today, there are so many more internationally capable players than 10 years ago. There is no reason that they shouldn't be able to learn a tactical system predicated on discipline and positioning.

I'd argue that there are two things TFC hasn't done. The other being bringing in an experienced coach who knows what he is doing.

[notthesun]

End of year press conference on Tuesday.

[Super]

I'm not talking about Toronto. European coaches, even very experienced ones have almost always failed anywhere in MLS.

What very experienced coaches? By experienced I mean 10+ years at top level clubs. And successful ones of course. Because that's what I'm talking about. Sign a top level coach from Scandinavia, Germany, Holland, whatever, who has a record of success for a decade+. Throw a million bucks at a Scandinavian top coach and you'll get him.

[jloome]

The one thing that TFC hasn't tried is sticking with a coach for a few years. Teams that fail in this league have coaching turnover in common.



ha-ha this is what people here are missing.



How well did it work for LA when they brought in a Dutch coach (we won't count Winter at TFC as he lacked experience)? The problem is American players couldn't play "total football."

Guess what? Americans/Canadians can't play Italian calcio (unless like Michael Bradley they actually had experience there). Neither can they play French football or even English football.

A foreign coach will come in assuming a skillset that most of his players don't have.

I don't think Vanney is a good coach. But he's also early on in his career. I'd be fine with just getting a GM who can scout talent properly, or knows how to hire a fucking scout. This is probably a good point, OT. We're always going to have a majority US/Can players, and they'll never adapt quickly enough for most European coaches. They just don't have the read of the game. That Drogba goal last night was a great example. Eight players (!) ball watching.

Is it on Vanney to get a player to follow the basics? Or should we be signing players to begin with who can do that?

I see bad signs from him. He mixes and matches lineups and formations too much, and tinkering nearly always ends badly when its continual in football. At the same time, I'm genuinely interested to see where we'd have been with a defence.

[Oldtimer]

What very experienced coaches? By experienced I mean 10+ years at top level clubs. And successful ones of course. Because that's what I'm talking about. Sign a top level coach from Scandinavia, Germany, Holland, whatever, who has a record of success for a decade+. Throw a million bucks at a Scandinavian top coach and you'll get him.

A Scandinavian top coach will win in MLS? I like Scandinavia, but I don't consider their leagues to be the best of the best.

Honestly, if you could steal Barcelona's coach you might be talking (and the style wouldn't be an excessive change) or maybe Juventus' (he'll know Seba), but that will not happen, not even if you throw them millions. If it could have been done it would have been done already by a more ambitious group than MLSE.

[Oldtimer]

Is it on Vanney to get a player to follow the basics? Or should we be signing players to begin with who can do that?



How about passing in front of your own goal? I told 13 year-olds not to do that when I was coaching. Yet that is what led to one of Montreal's goals in our playoff game. Is that on Vanney or do we have players that aren't just good enough? We're talking basics here, folks.

[Bobo]

My theory is that until Giovinco's press conference, the entire front office & coaching staff thought he was an attacking midfielder instead of a striker. The team's player acquisition outside the obvious ones has been relatively poor. I mean the team has way too many strikers...we played a 4-2-3-1 yesterday with 3 strikers on the field. Gio

THIS!

Bez was going on and on about ending the search for the perfect attacking midfielder while everyone who knew Italian football were collectively facepalming. Seba was a Bez mistake that worked out just because Seba is an incredible player who leapt at a bucketload of money. Jozy's addition was necessary to be rid of their previously failed project. Aside from Vanney's French connections to get Cheyrou, management has been utterly clueless in its search for players that fit. Combine that with Vanney's inability to find a system that fits his players' strengths and you get yet another failure. I've given Bez the benefit of the doubt but I now have zero confidence that he can build a competitive team. Calculators can't teach success.

[Calcio]

A Scandinavian top coach will win in MLS? I like Scandinavia, but I don't consider their leagues to be the best of the best.

Honestly, if you could steal Barcelona's coach you might be talking (and the style wouldn't be an excessive change) or maybe Juventus' (he'll know Seba), but that will not happen, not even if you throw them millions. If it could have been done it would have been done already by a more ambitious group than MLSE.

Prandelli, Montella, or Spalletti would all work. Stay away from Capello, who NYCFC is apparently talking to, which further cements that that team (NYCFC) has no idea what they are doing.

[Super]

A Scandinavian top coach will win in MLS? I like Scandinavia, but I don't consider their leagues to be the best of the best.

Honestly, if you could steal Barcelona's coach you might be talking (and the style wouldn't be an excessive change) or maybe Juventus' (he'll know Seba), but that will not happen, not even if you throw them millions. If it could have been done it would have been done already by a more ambitious group than MLSE.

I think the top clubs in Scandinavia would fair quite well in the MLS - would very likely even win it. And Vanney most certainly couldn't get a job there. None of our former coaches could land a job there. Look at Bob Bradley. It was hailed as a big success that an American coach could land a job at a medium sized club in Norway.

[Ultra & Proud]

What very experienced coaches? By experienced I mean 10+ years at top level clubs. And successful ones of course. Because that's what I'm talking about. Sign a top level coach from Scandinavia, Germany, Holland, whatever, who has a record of success for a decade+. Throw a million bucks at a Scandinavian top coach and you'll get him.
Marco Schallibaum & Hans Backe come to mind. Mixed results at best. No sure fire bet to succeed.

[starter]

Sigh. Welcome to an annual bashing of "Finally Bring An Experienced Manager In" idea.
Apparently, there is no decent soccer coaches willing to come here either.
OT, I am also hearing there is no houses to rent in all of Tuscany.

[Ultra & Proud]

How about passing in front of your own goal? I told 13 year-olds not to do that when I was coaching. Yet that is what led to one of Montreal's goals in our playoff game. Is that on Vanney or do we have players that aren't just good enough? We're talking basics here, folks.
This is true but a lot of times when tactics shift a lot from game to game and players get no real sense of what they are supposed to do or where to be then things like that happen out of panic. I saw a lot of that this year. I will bet our defensive drills (and set piece ones too) were a joke in training. Neither improved at all over a full season. Also, we tend to lack concentration at times during matches. That shouldn't happen but the players did it and that's on them but the manager should have cracked down on that hard. But didn't.

[ag futbol]

There is a case for a foreign coach, however, lets not pretend we will be able to replica calcio.

The players in this league require mountains of tactical training compared to their euro counterparts. I don't want the euro way of doing things, I want someone who knows other ways of doing stuff but is practical enough to understand what can be implemented here.

[Calcio]

This is true but a lot of times when tactics shift a lot from game to game and players get no real sense of what they are supposed to do or where to be then things like that happen out of panic. I saw a lot of that this year. I will bet our defensive drills (and set piece ones too) were a joke in training. Neither improved at all over a full season. Also, we tend to lack concentration at times during matches. That shouldn't happen but the players did it and that's on them but the manager should have cracked down on that hard. But didn't.

One key difference about Italian training vs. other countries (like Germany) is a lot of the training is without the ball. Arturo Vidal once said that the key difference between Italy and Germany is that in Italy they don't train with the ball enough, and in Germany they train too much with the ball. Our players could probably really benefit from tactical coaching and an emphasis on positioning.

[ag futbol]

This is true but a lot of times when tactics shift a lot from game to game and players get no real sense of what they are supposed to do or where to be then things like that happen out of panic. I saw a lot of that this year. I will bet our defensive drills (and set piece ones too) were a joke in training. Neither improved at all over a full season. Also, we tend to lack concentration at times during matches. That shouldn't happen but the players did it and that's on them but the manager should have cracked down on that hard. But didn't.
Concentration? I'm not sure about that.

A lot of these guys are serial under-performers. Jackson has been spastic for his entire career - brain farts by low paid CBs are common. Kantari didn't arrive here with a glowing rep.

Yes coaching could be better but no coach can mitigate some of these things.

[Super]

Marco Schallibaum & Hans Backe come to mind. Mixed results at best. No sure fire bet to succeed.

Marco Schallibaum helped Montreal into the play-offs in only their second season - but still got fired. Might have been some personality issues there as well. Hans Backe I know well because he lead Aalborg (my home club) to a championship. Also FC Copenhagen. Won the east in his first season with NYRB.

I'm not saying it's a sure fire bet to get guys like these, but it's surely a better idea than hiring more inexperienced managers or sticking with the current one who failed. Also I think a type like Hans Backe would command more respect in the locker room than a newbie like Vanney. Backe has been places, done things. Proven things. That helps.

[Calcio]

There is a case for a foreign coach, however, lets not pretend we will be able to replica calcio.

The players in this league require mountains of tactical training compared to their euro counterparts. I don't want the euro way of doing things, I want someone who knows other ways of doing stuff but is practical enough to understand what can be implemented here.

Let's use the Albanian national team as an example. Our team is certainly on par with that team. First, national teams rarely train together, and Albania isn't a very deep nation in terms of talent - there are some good players, but overall not very deep. An Italian coach just led them to qualify for Euro for the first time ever in a group featuring Portugal, Denmark, and Armenia. The team even beat Portugal. This isn't even a big time Italian coach. When push comes to shove, Italian coaches are the best at getting good results out of mediocre teams. In 2009, Albania was ranked 96th. Canada is currently ranked 104. If an Italian coach can make that team respectable, they could certainly handle TFC.

Calcio is an overused term anyways (funny how it is my name). I'm just saying, bring in an experienced Italian coach who can teach defensive positioning, and how to react away from the ball.

[Red CB Toronto]

I would take someone lie Jason Kries any day over some Big name European guy with no MLS experience.

[jabbronies]

The problem with European coaches is that they don't know how to work with shit players.

In the MLS, your team will have players that are shit, however, unlike europe where you can just go and buy a better version for that position at the next window, you have to figure out how to play with the shit you have and not get exposed/killed for it.

Dan Gargan and Chad Barrett have both won an MLS cup in the last 5 years. Shitty players exist on Championship teams. You just need a guy who knows how to use them.

Also - from a GM standpoint - if you are going to get shit players into your squad, make sure they are not playing up the spine in critical positions.

Anyways - point being is Euro coaches with that sort of talent are hard to find.

[C.Ronaldo]

while throwing out coaches we will never get

Jorge Jesus has shown he is willing to sell out for the right $$.

[Super]

I would take someone lie Jason Kries any day over some Big name European guy with no MLS experience.

Absolutely. Jason Kreis is an experienced coach with success on the resume. That qualifies. But if we can't get him, or any other experienced AND successful MLS coach then we need to look elsewhere.

[T-boy]

How about passing in front of your own goal? I told 13 year-olds not to do that when I was coaching. Yet that is what led to one of Montreal's goals in our playoff game. Is that on Vanney or do we have players that aren't just good enough? We're talking basics here, folks.

Central D's pass it back and forth all the time in every league - however you can't coach a player not to slip over at the vital moment. That was just one of those things. Like when that goally threw the ball in his own net, or players score own goals. These things happen and I don't think its on the coach, that would be a little harsh (unless it happens over and over again, in which case you get the player checked out as they are clearly unsteady on their feet, or purposely scoring that own goal!).

[Ultra & Proud]

I would take someone lie Jason Kries any day over some Big name European guy with no MLS experience.
This right here. No question.

[Calcio]

The problem with European coaches is that they don't know how to work with shit players.

In the MLS, your team will have players that are shit, however, unlike europe where you can just go and buy a better version for that position at the next window, you have to figure out how to play with the shit you have and not get exposed/killed for it.

Dan Gargan and Chad Barrett have both won an MLS cup in the last 5 years. Shitty players exist on Championship teams. You just need a guy who knows how to use them.

Also - from a GM standpoint - if you are going to get shit players into your squad, make sure they are not playing up the spine in critical positions.

Anyways - point being is Euro coaches with that sort of talent are hard to find.

See Albania National Team example. There are many shit players in Europe, and many coaches who deal with them. These coaches didn't spring up and begin in the top flight. Look at two of the better coaches in Italy right now - Sarri. Sarri as recently as 2011 was coaching a team in Serie D, eventually coaching Empoli from Serie B to Serie A. You don't need Jose Mourinho. You need a smart, tactically inclined coach, and there are many of these that have worked with teams of many talent levels.

[Ultra & Proud]

See Albania National Team example. There are many shit players in Europe, and many coaches who deal with them. These coaches didn't spring up and begin in the top flight. Look at two of the better coaches in Italy right now - Sarri. Sarri as recently as 2011 was coaching a team in Serie D, eventually coaching Empoli from Serie B to Serie A. You don't need Jose Mourinho. You need a smart, tactically inclined coach, and there are many of these that have worked with teams of many talent levels.
But those Euro teams have players who learned football from young ages and have some proper training. The skills are lacking but they are way ahead of the low average MLSer. Lots of what you get here is NCAA trained junk. And worse.

And then you have the convoluted rules, the centralized allocation BS, and the refs. Good luck finding a sensible Italian coach who can think his way around all of that mess. Even the previously mentioned Schallibaum and Backe had problems in these areas.

[jazzy]

This right here. No question.


Why not Mike Petke also ?

[OgtheDim]

Why not Mike Petke also ?


I'm not sure if he's all that good tactically.

[MightyDM]

The biggest game in our history was essentially over in 20 minutes. There has to be something happening at a coaching level for a team to be that flat.

This.

[MightyDM]

I feel sorry for Vanney. He had been assistant coach at Chivas, the least desirable team in MLS. Out if the blue he gets picked to be Head Coach of TFC and given the richest payroll in the league. Who wouldn't say yes and give it a go? For me it's not about the lack of quality of the back four - defending starts in the mid-field and is about a team system. This is the coach first and foremost. He has abdicated his responsibility.

Exactly.

[jazzy]

I don't think Vanney is a good coach. But he's also early on in his career. I'd be fine with just getting a GM who can scout talent properly, or knows how to hire a fucking scout. This is probably a good point, OT. We're always going to have a majority US/Can players, and they'll never adapt quickly enough for most European coaches. They just don't have the read of the game. That Drogba goal last night was a great example. Eight players (!) ball watching.

Is it on Vanney to get a player to follow the basics? Or should we be signing players to begin with who can do that?

I see bad signs from him. He mixes and matches lineups and formations too much, and tinkering nearly always ends badly when its continual in football. At the same time, I'm genuinely interested to see where we'd have been with a defence.

Question is reverse it . Take away Gio and then the coach really matters ! Would we be stable and competitive as a team ? Give our past coaches Gio , I dare say they'd be in heaven . In short as a season ticket holder , I need some form of hope? Excitement ? We didn't even lose with class . Unfortunately the blame has to fall somewhere . EG KC vs Portland , 2 teams defining a playoff game !

[jazzy]

See Albania National Team example. There are many shit players in Europe, and many coaches who deal with them. These coaches didn't spring up and begin in the top flight. Look at two of the better coaches in Italy right now - Sarri. Sarri as recently as 2011 was coaching a team in Serie D, eventually coaching Empoli from Serie B to Serie A. You don't need Jose Mourinho. You need a smart, tactically inclined coach, and there are many of these that have worked with teams of many talent levels.

Somehow Montreal coach is lost in all this , he's kicked ass !

[jazzy]

I'm not sure if he's all that good tactically.

You would probably be more informed on that than me , but his input at game time reminds me of KC's coach , who seems to simply control the refs .

[Ultra & Proud]

I'm not sure if he's all that good tactically.
But probably better than Vanney.

[notthesun]

On the foreign coach issue - we have a case study from this season. Owen Coyle coached Houston to a 42 point, -7 GD, 8th place Western conference finish. You're not likely to find a more experienced guy willing to come to MLS (rumors of Capello to NYCFC notwithstanding). He certainly didn't revolutionize the Dynamo or coach his opponents out of their pants this year.

As things stand I still lean towards keeping Vanney and getting a new GM. I really doubt hiring a foreign coach ends well for us. Kreis would certainly be an interesting proposition, especially since I wouldn't see us hiring him as a complete reboot of what we've done so far. But we'll have to see if he becomes available in the first place.

[Super]

On the foreign coach issue - we have a case study from this season. Owen Coyle coached Houston to a 42 point, -7 GD, 8th place Western conference finish. You're not likely to find a more experienced guy willing to come to MLS (rumors of Capello to NYCFC notwithstanding). He certainly didn't revolutionize the Dynamo or coach his opponents out of their pants this year.

As things stand I still lean towards keeping Vanney and getting a new GM. I really doubt hiring a foreign coach ends well for us. Kreis would certainly be an interesting proposition, especially since I wouldn't see us hiring him as a complete reboot of what we've done so far. But we'll have to see if he becomes available in the first place.

There's good and bad examples. Owen Coyle wouldn't qualify as the successful/experienced coach I'd want for TFC.

I will lose ALL respect for our new President if he keeps Vanney on. GONE! But I'll be back at BMO for more bad coaching/tactics from Vanney just the same.

[jabbronies]

On the foreign coach issue - we have a case study from this season. Owen Coyle coached Houston to a 42 point, -7 GD, 8th place Western conference finish. You're not likely to find a more experienced guy willing to come to MLS (rumors of Capello to NYCFC notwithstanding). He certainly didn't revolutionize the Dynamo or coach his opponents out of their pants this year.

As things stand I still lean towards keeping Vanney and getting a new GM. I really doubt hiring a foreign coach ends well for us. Kreis would certainly be an interesting proposition, especially since I wouldn't see us hiring him as a complete reboot of what we've done so far. But we'll have to see if he becomes available in the first place.


Unless a guy like Sigi Schmidt comes along, I'm leaning very slightly towards keeping Vanney.
I don't want another low-mid level manager coming in - it doesn't make sense. It would be starting from where we began. We need to be at another level with who we bring in.

They need a defensive line upgrade, big time. That should be the focus from here until game 1 of next season.
That includes solidifying what roles Bradley and Cheyrou are suppose to do when on the field.

They should be rolling with 1 starting lineup - minus 1-2 changes at most per game (player and formation should remain very similar) . Not 7 change lineup overhaul that we saw every game this year - up until the last game when we stuck with a shit lineup that shit the bed days before.

[Auzzy]

I wasn't sure where to stick this, would be pertinent to a couple of threads... I really like this article by John Molinaro. Touches on much of what we're talking about here:

Brutally honest self-evaluation needed by TFC:
http://www.sportsnet.ca/soccer/tfc-toronto-fc-mls-major-league-soccer-michael-bradley-greg-vanney-tim-bezbatchenko-bill-manning/

[ManUtd4ever]

I advocated patience with Vanney, but the fact that we made the playoffs in 6th place in a weak conference, finished the season with an abysmal goals against record, and got thoroughly embarrassed by an arch rival in our lone playoff game is hardly an endorsement of the coach, especially when you factor in our payroll and our roster.

We needed 1 measly point in our final two regular season games following an inspiring win against NYRB to guarantee a pivotal home playoff date, and Vanney decided to change the lineup and our tactical approach.

The roster was somewhat flawed, but there should be no doubt that this team underachieved this season.

If we have the opportunity to hire a coach with a greater pedigree, the decision should be a no brainer.

[vortexdr]

But those Euro teams have players who learned football from young ages and have some proper training. The skills are lacking but they are way ahead of the low average MLSer. Lots of what you get here is NCAA trained junk. And worse.

And then you have the convoluted rules, the centralized allocation BS, and the refs. Good luck finding a sensible Italian coach who can think his way around all of that mess. Even the previously mentioned Schallibaum and Backe had problems in these areas.

Hmm you actually bring up good points...Basic translation youth coaching in north American countries still absolute shit i guess?

[MikeM]

See Albania National Team example. There are many shit players in Europe, and many coaches who deal with them. These coaches didn't spring up and begin in the top flight. Look at two of the better coaches in Italy right now - Sarri. Sarri as recently as 2011 was coaching a team in Serie D, eventually coaching Empoli from Serie B to Serie A. You don't need Jose Mourinho. You need a smart, tactically inclined coach, and there are many of these that have worked with teams of many talent levels.

The first difference you'll notice between Sarri and basically any coach in NA is the coaching of the back line. In Italy, just the back four alone is worthy of immense coaching and drilling. I love Sarri and think he's a great coach but there are quite a few guys like him in Italy. That just highlights the differences in the way the game is played and coached there vs. here.

If you take any good Italian coach and give them this roster, they will finish much higher. You don't need great players to hold a certain shape. You don't need great players to realize that the CBs can never, under any circumstance, be without cover. Once they are without cover they have to make tough decisions (and bad players can't make those tough decisions). You cover them up and you keep them in line. Once you let them maraud around the pitch, they start getting in between balls, they find themselves in wide areas. The whole team goes to shit.

Then once they're covered you can get into how connected they should be. When to step up. How far should they drop, etc. But you have to coach the shit out of that. I've never seen a TFC team come close to Italian level execution defensively.

It's not even close to "San Marino hold on for dear life to an 8-0 loss" level defensively. It's somehow worse. Defenders have to know how to play off each other just as much as attackers. And also, in all the time I've spent with youth soccer in Canada, I've never seen defending coached. And if it is, it's maybe 5% of the practice time in relation to other areas of the pitch.

But then you have to expand on that and include the midfielders and forwards in your defensive tactics. Sometimes I couldn't continue watching TFC games when I see the "two banks of four" spread 20 yards apart with opponents constantly finding space in between those banks. It's like the anti-thesis of tactically correct defending. It's everything NOT to do.

[nascarguy]

the team though they were going to win the supporters cup after they made it in to the playoffs at 2nd then they shit bed after that

[Richard]

The first difference you'll notice between Sarri and basically any coach in NA is the coaching of the back line. In Italy, just the back four alone is worthy of immense coaching and drilling. I love Sarri and think he's a great coach but there are quite a few guys like him in Italy. That just highlights the differences in the way the game is played and coached there vs. here.

If you take any good Italian coach and give them this roster, they will finish much higher. You don't need great players to hold a certain shape. You don't need great players to realize that the CBs can never, under any circumstance, be without cover. Once they are without cover they have to make tough decisions (and bad players can't make those tough decisions). You cover them up and you keep them in line. Once you let them maraud around the pitch, they start getting in between balls, they find themselves in wide areas. The whole team goes to shit.

Then once they're covered you can get into how connected they should be. When to step up. How far should they drop, etc. But you have to coach the shit out of that. I've never seen a TFC team come close to Italian level execution defensively.

It's not even close to "San Marino hold on for dear life to an 8-0 loss" level defensively. It's somehow worse. Defenders have to know how to play off each other just as much as attackers. And also, in all the time I've spent with youth soccer in Canada, I've never seen defending coached. And if it is, it's maybe 5% of the practice time in relation to other areas of the pitch.

But then you have to expand on that and include the midfielders and forwards in your defensive tactics. Sometimes I couldn't continue watching TFC games when I see the "two banks of four" spread 20 yards apart with opponents constantly finding space in between those banks. It's like the anti-thesis of tactically correct defending. It's everything NOT to do.

Really good points here.

I think there is a coaching problem, maybe not all of the problem is on Vanney though, I'm curious as to what his staff is actually doing in training, so many basic problems like having 6 guys watching a ball float in to Drogba make me think about what the fuck they're doing in training.

[ronzilla]

A good tacticion from Europe could take Chicago into the top 5-6th place without even making any roster changes. Just imagine where the reds would be with a good tactical coach.

How many times did you see montreal attacking with only 3 players in the backline? Its laughable. This is all on vanney, who is currently leeching off of Giovinco's success to protect his job.

[OgtheDim]

Question is reverse it . Take away Gio and then the coach really matters ! Would we be stable and competitive as a team ? !

We'd be Chicago.

And Montreal without Drogba? And Seattle without Martins and Dempsey? Its an arguement that means nothing cause the player exists.

[ag futbol]

Somehow Montreal coach is lost in all this , he's kicked ass !
I'd like to give Bernie some credit. He's like their Dero but quietly goes about his business.

[Detroit_TFC]

I fear that the type of foreign manager that everyone would feel was decent enough to be worth it, isn't looking for work in North America.

[Calcio]

The first difference you'll notice between Sarri and basically any coach in NA is the coaching of the back line. In Italy, just the back four alone is worthy of immense coaching and drilling. I love Sarri and think he's a great coach but there are quite a few guys like him in Italy. That just highlights the differences in the way the game is played and coached there vs. here.

If you take any good Italian coach and give them this roster, they will finish much higher. You don't need great players to hold a certain shape. You don't need great players to realize that the CBs can never, under any circumstance, be without cover. Once they are without cover they have to make tough decisions (and bad players can't make those tough decisions). You cover them up and you keep them in line. Once you let them maraud around the pitch, they start getting in between balls, they find themselves in wide areas. The whole team goes to shit.

Then once they're covered you can get into how connected they should be. When to step up. How far should they drop, etc. But you have to coach the shit out of that. I've never seen a TFC team come close to Italian level execution defensively.

It's not even close to "San Marino hold on for dear life to an 8-0 loss" level defensively. It's somehow worse. Defenders have to know how to play off each other just as much as attackers. And also, in all the time I've spent with youth soccer in Canada, I've never seen defending coached. And if it is, it's maybe 5% of the practice time in relation to other areas of the pitch.

But then you have to expand on that and include the midfielders and forwards in your defensive tactics. Sometimes I couldn't continue watching TFC games when I see the "two banks of four" spread 20 yards apart with opponents constantly finding space in between those banks. It's like the anti-thesis of tactically correct defending. It's everything NOT to do.

I completely agree with you. Sarri is one example of a good Italian coach. Eusebio Di Francesco is another. TFC just needs a coach from Italy who can speak English. He doesn't need to be an Antonio Conte.

My favourite quote by Maldini: "If I have to make a tackle then I have already made a mistake."

And this stuff you highlight is why Italian teams spend so much time training without the ball.

[Oldtimer]

I wasn't sure where to stick this, would be pertinent to a couple of threads... I really like this article by John Molinaro. Touches on much of what we're talking about here:

Brutally honest self-evaluation needed by TFC:
http://www.sportsnet.ca/soccer/tfc-toronto-fc-mls-major-league-soccer-michael-bradley-greg-vanney-tim-bezbatchenko-bill-manning/
Good find.

[Ultra & Proud]

I completely agree with you. Sarri is one example of a good Italian coach. Eusebio Di Francesco is another. TFC just needs a coach from Italy who can speak English. He doesn't need to be an Antonio Conte.

My favourite quote by Maldini: "If I have to make a tackle then I have already made a mistake."

And this stuff you highlight is why Italian teams spend so much time training without the ball.
So I can safely assume that Italy is the only country with tactically adept coaching.

Their frequent string of international success means it has to work here right? RIGHT?

[Calcio]

So I can safely assume that Italy is the only country with tactically adept coaching.

Their frequent string of international success means it has to work here right? RIGHT?

Watch Serie A vs. other leagues and the focus on tactics is clear. Italians have been achieving more with less for decades. If we're looking for a coach that will bring structure to the team, the best option is Italian.

[SirBobSaget]

I wasn't sure where to stick this, would be pertinent to a couple of threads... I really like this article by John Molinaro. Touches on much of what we're talking about here:

Brutally honest self-evaluation needed by TFC:
http://www.sportsnet.ca/soccer/tfc-toronto-fc-mls-major-league-soccer-michael-bradley-greg-vanney-tim-bezbatchenko-bill-manning/

Excellent article from Molinaro. Kristian Jack had an equally on point write up here (http://www.tsn.ca/a-lesson-in-collective-balance-costs-abysmal-tfc-1.385090). Both pretty much echo the inability to shore up the CB and RB issues we all knew about a year ago, plus the coach's insane decision to keep going with what didn't work in the very same situation 4 days earlier.

Look at the deadwood players earning over 200k on TFC: Findley, Gomez, Kantari, Moore, Perquis (maybe) -> 5

Compare to VWC: Rosales (maybe?) -> 1
Compare to Mtl: Cooper (only because of injury) ->1

TFC throwing away well over 1 million on subpar player.

[Fort York Redcoat]

Watch Serie A vs. other leagues and the focus on tactics is clear. Italians have been achieving more with less for decades. If we're looking for a coach that will bring structure to the team, the best option is Italian.

Thanks for the unbias opinion there, CALCIO.

The right answer is there is surely a fit that could come from Italy but the fact he's Italian would be just a part of it.

See our Womens Team last time around.

[OgtheDim]

Watch Serie A vs. other leagues and the focus on tactics is clear.

:facepalm:


No, nobody in the Bundisliga does tactics. And Mourinho just throws the ball out there and says "You go boys." And Real, well Benentiz managed Liverpool so how can he know anything about tactics.

You are equating style with tactics.

[Fort York Redcoat]

:facepalm:

I'm sure Calcio is unaware of how many times National generalizations have made their way onto the board. He's not wrong in stating that general type of play would be a benefit to our team. It just lacks some of the accompanying details that would have to change to make it work here. It's not impossible, just not simple either.

[jazzy]

The first difference you'll notice between Sarri and basically any coach in NA is the coaching of the back line. In Italy, just the back four alone is worthy of immense coaching and drilling. I love Sarri and think he's a great coach but there are quite a few guys like him in Italy. That just highlights the differences in the way the game is played and coached there vs. here.

If you take any good Italian coach and give them this roster, they will finish much higher. You don't need great players to hold a certain shape. You don't need great players to realize that the CBs can never, under any circumstance, be without cover. Once they are without cover they have to make tough decisions (and bad players can't make those tough decisions). You cover them up and you keep them in line. Once you let them maraud around the pitch, they start getting in between balls, they find themselves in wide areas. The whole team goes to shit.

Then once they're covered you can get into how connected they should be. When to step up. How far should they drop, etc. But you have to coach the shit out of that. I've never seen a TFC team come close to Italian level execution defensively.

It's not even close to "San Marino hold on for dear life to an 8-0 loss" level defensively. It's somehow worse. Defenders have to know how to play off each other just as much as attackers. And also, in all the time I've spent with youth soccer in Canada, I've never seen defending coached. And if it is, it's maybe 5% of the practice time in relation to other areas of the pitch.

But then you have to expand on that and include the midfielders and forwards in your defensive tactics. Sometimes I couldn't continue watching TFC games when I see the "two banks of four" spread 20 yards apart with opponents constantly finding space in between those banks. It's like the anti-thesis of tactically correct defending. It's everything NOT to do.

Everyone please read :).....would have thought Nelson tried this ?

[jazzy]

We'd be Chicago.

And Montreal without Drogba? And Seattle without Martins and Dempsey? Its an arguement that means nothing cause the player exists.

My point is how do you evaluate a coach without that superstar ? He has to bring something to the table . I like MikeM's comments on better coaching the D . Obviously the man out the door immediately has yo be OUR D strategist . Regardless of our superstars it's all about our crap D. Btw you can't use the two man argument as above for Seattle . I mean that is the point we have never found our second man to fit with Gio . EG Columbus Findley to Kamara and I didn't even include Higuan . Again we're stuck with Altidore and Bradley who do not work well with Gio . Back to same problem .

[Fort York Redcoat]

I don't think you mean to keep quoting me, jazzy. I'm still reading it though, I promise.g:D

[Areathrasher]

its the offseason, must be time for the euro coach debate again :lol:

[jazzy]

Thanks for the unbias opinion there, CALCIO.

The right answer is there is surely a fit that could come from Italy but the fact he's Italian would be just a part of it.

See our Womens Team last time around.


I don't think you mean to keep quoting me, jazzy. I'm still reading it though, I promise.g:D

yup old man on computer

[Calcio]

:facepalm:


No, nobody in the Bundisliga does tactics. And Mourinho just throws the ball out there and says "You go boys." And Real, well Benentiz managed Liverpool so how can he know anything about tactics.

You are equating style with tactics.

Don't think I said that no other league used tactics, I just said in Serie A tactics are a hyperfocus. It isn't opinion that Serie A is more tactical than other leagues, it is fact. There are dozens and dozens of quotes from players when asked what the difference in Serie A vs. other leagues are. The answer is ALWAYS, it is more tactical. In Serie A, the focus is on play without the ball. In other leagues, there isn't this sort of focus. Once again, not opinion, it is fact. That being said, you bring up Mourinho, he is IMO, the manager in the EPL most focused on tactics.

Here is support for the focus on tactics, there is plenty. Not all the articles are positive, some say Italian football should change because it is slower and too tactical. Point is all of these articles point to the same thing, and have quotes from several players highlighting that Serie A is a much more tactically focused game.

http://www.theguardian.com/football/2015/jun/22/juventus-tactics-fiorentina-champions-league-napoli
http://www.football-italia.net/43322/pogba-serie-extraordinary
http://www.goal.com/en/news/10/italian-football/2014/03/07/4667851/tevez-serie-a-the-most-difficult-league
http://www.maltasport.com/modules/interfootball/item.php?itemid=30210
http://www.football-italia.net/60951/vidal-dreams-champions-league
http://www.football-italia.net/61477/garcia-%E2%80%98serie-more-tactical%E2%80%99
http://forzaitalianfootball.com/2015/03/brozovic-serie-a-is-much-more-tactical-than-prva-hnl/
http://www.thenational.ae/sport/serie-a/serie-a-would-be-smart-to-now-copy-england-says-juventus-great-gianluca-vialli
http://www.football-italia.net/55865/evra-incredible-serie-debut
http://www.goal.com/en/news/15/german-football/2015/08/11/14350182/immobile-unhappy-with-borussia-dortmund-treatment
http://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/sport/yanga-mbiwa-hopes-lyon-mo/2057058.html
http://www.goal.com/en/news/10/italian-football/2015/09/04/15041302/mancini-will-make-me-better-says-kondogbia
http://www.football-italia.net/72862/jovetic-im-no-man-city-failure
http://www.goal.com/en-india/news/7083/isl/2015/08/02/14086792/indian-super-league-anelka-drogba-didnt-sign-in-india-because-he-
http://www.goal.com/en/news/10/italian-football/2015/03/12/9759752/barzagli-pirlo-is-a-unique-talent
http://www.dailystar.co.uk/sport/football/425435/Juan-Cuadrado-Stamford-Bridge-debut-means
http://www.sport-english.com/en/news/barca/mascherano-suggests-chiellinis-comments-messis-goal-were-taken-out-context-4241282
http://www.football-italia.net/60167/allegri-%E2%80%98calcio-too-tactical%E2%80%99

[Calcio]

Thanks for the unbias opinion there, CALCIO.

The right answer is there is surely a fit that could come from Italy but the fact he's Italian would be just a part of it.

See our Womens Team last time around.

He doesn't have to be Italian in terms of nationality - but coaching for a long time in the Italian league would be a huge help. As MikeM said before, there is a certain way of coaching in Italy when it comes to defending that would help TFC perform.

That being said, it isn't blindly picking an Italian-league coach. Picking Zdenek Zeman for the team would make no sense.

[Leedsoronto]

Have we tried a Japanese coach yet?

[starter]

He doesn't have to be Italian in terms of nationality - but coaching for a long time in the Italian league would be a huge help. As MikeM said before, there is a certain way of coaching in Italy when it comes to defending that would help TFC perform.

This would be a good move, for a change.
Not that impossible, if management wants to attract fans and keep SG happy.
Hey, a better coach might even have balls to point a thing or two to our Captain?

[Ultra & Proud]

I still wouldn't want an international manager but I was thinking that some specialists/consultants perhaps from overseas to come in solely to work on off the ball movement and set piece defending wouldn't be a bad thing.

[Canary10]

MLS isn't a tactical league. I'd way rather a coach who can motivate than one who's tactical. Coaches who get the players working hard and on the same page are the most successful in MLS.

[Canary10]

Interesting article by Neil Davidson. I think dumping Caldwell was a huge mistake (unless he really was that injured). Lost the inspirational leader of the team. And his view of Bez and Vanney is bang on imo.

http://www.timescolonist.com/analysis-in-wake-of-playoff-debacle-toronto-fc-needs-to-find-its-identity-1.2100045

[ensco]

Don't care about the manager nearly as much as I care about the GM

[ronzilla]

You can't deny that some of the best tactical coaches have come from Italy. I'm not buying into this theory that a foreign coach would struggle to adapt here, simply because, at the end of the day, it's the same sport being played with the only difference being that MLS is a lower league in terms of quality and style of play. The past foreign coaches that came here and failed was many years ago and its irrelevant to this argument. None have been a big name coach.

I would have no doubt that if TFC signed a Serie A coach, or any European coach for that matter, this team would easily fiinsh at the top.


Roberto Mancini led Manchester City to the Premier League title for the first time in 44 years.

Roberto Di Matteo- almost effortlessly imposed a new tactical approach, won over the senior players and dressing room and led the side to FA Cup and UEFA Champions League glory.

Marcello Lippi - the 64-year-old started afresh in PR China by taking charge of Guangzhou Evergrande and lifted the team to the top
of the table and also won the World Cup in 2006.

Trapattoni - took over as head coach of the Republic of Ireland and subsequently guided them to UEFA EURO 2012 – their first European finals in 24 years.

Capello - Went to coach the England national team and gave the country the highest winning percentage that the national team has ever seen.

and many more.

This list is just some examples of Italian coaches that took on new challenges. I'm not saying they would be the perfect fit, although if TFC want to sign a new coach, they should be searching in Italy.

[trane]

MLS isn't a tactical league. I'd way rather a coach who can motivate than one who's tactical. Coaches who get the players working hard and on the same page are the most successful in MLS.


Well it is about time that the MLS move on up and become a tactical league.

[jazzy]

As much as I agree with many here , maybe ? , the best move is a more player involved GM being the answer , along with keeping Vanney . ( 1 more year ONLY) , But isn't he Bez's man? ....Whoever chose The red bulls defensive specialist though ...hoy vay ??.....

[jazzy]

Interesting article by Neil Davidson. I think dumping Caldwell was a huge mistake (unless he really was that injured). Lost the inspirational leader of the team. And his view of Bez and Vanney is bang on imo.

http://www.timescolonist.com/analysis-in-wake-of-playoff-debacle-toronto-fc-needs-to-find-its-identity-1.2100045

thats a great succinct article !

[trane]

You can't deny that some of the best tactical coaches have come from Italy. I'm not buying into this theory that a foreign coach would struggle to adapt here, simply because, at the end of the day, it's the same sport being played with the only difference being that MLS is a lower league in terms of quality and style of play. The past foreign coaches that came here and failed was many years ago and its irrelevant to this argument. None have been a big name coach.

I would have no doubt that if TFC signed a Serie A coach, or any European coach for that matter, this team would easily fiinsh at the top.


Roberto Mancini led Manchester City to the Premier League title for the first time in 44 years.

Roberto Di Matteo- almost effortlessly imposed a new tactical approach, won over the senior players and dressing room and led the side to FA Cup and UEFA Champions League glory.

Marcello Lippi - the 64-year-old started afresh in PR China by taking charge of Guangzhou Evergrande and lifted the team to the top
of the table and also won the World Cup in 2006.

Trapattoni - took over as head coach of the Republic of Ireland and subsequently guided them to UEFA EURO 2012 – their first European finals in 24 years.

Capello - Went to coach the England national team and gave the country the highest winning percentage that the national team has ever seen.

and many more.

This list is just some examples of Italian coaches that took on new challenges. I'm not saying they would be the perfect fit, although if TFC want to sign a new coach, they should be searching in Italy.

That dude that finally won Real Madrid the 10th cl title after years of cl underachievement.

Mou is very "Italian" in his concept, but there are many European coaches, like Roma's present coach, who take a very tactical approach to the game, and many who now how to make more out of less.

The mls in UN-watchable at times, because its lack of tactical cohesion, and I have heard this from people who grew up with all kinds of football, from Germany, Italy and Enland, too Ghana and Columbia. We complain about a lack of footy IQ. Well footy iq starts with tactical understanding which MLS players do not have as a group.

[shwade]

Interesting article by Neil Davidson. I think dumping Caldwell was a huge mistake (unless he really was that injured). Lost the inspirational leader of the team. And his view of Bez and Vanney is bang on imo.

http://www.timescolonist.com/analysis-in-wake-of-playoff-debacle-toronto-fc-needs-to-find-its-identity-1.2100045

Bradley is cold and aloof - he can't motivate and round up the troops...nor can Vanney and this was clearly a problem for this team. Look at Drogba's celebration video on instagram - I can't see our guys being that close.

[Canary10]

That dude that finally won Real Madrid the 10th cl title after years of cl underachievement.

Mou is very "Italian" in his concept, but there are many European coaches, like Roma's present coach, who take a very tactical approach to the game, and many who now how to make more out of less.

The mls in UN-watchable at times, because its lack of tactical cohesion, and I have heard this from people who grew up with all kinds of football, from Germany, Italy and Enland, too Ghana and Columbia. We complain about a lack of footy IQ. Well footy iq starts with tactical understanding which MLS players do not have as a group.

Need to instill that much earlier. These guys graduate at 22-23 and go to MLS without the understanding of the game.

Personally I find MLS borderline unwatchable because of its slowness.

[ensco]

Bradley is cold and aloof - he can't motivate and round up the troops...nor can Vanney and this was clearly a problem for this team. Look at Drogba's celebration video on instagram - I can't see our guys being that close.

Davidson is wrong. This is suddenly becoming a "thing". I don't see this or accept this. Bradley is intense, but aloof? No way.

The fact that Bradley almost entirely operates behind closed doors, and is measured and respectful in public, is being misconstrued.

Bradley hasn't been worth what he has been paid, but that is a different issue. He remains a good use of a DP slot.

[Canary10]

Davidson is wrong. This is suddenly becoming a "thing". I don't see this or accept this. Bradley is intense, but aloof? No way.

The fact that Bradley almost entirely operates behind closed doors, and is measured and respectful in public, is being misconstrued.

Bradley hasn't been worth what he has been paid, but that is a different issue. He remains a good use of a DP slot.

This is a guy who is around the team more than almost anyone else...

He's also not saying he's not a good use of a DP. Only that he doesn't have an emotional style of leadership. That assessment doesn't surprise me at all.

[ensco]

This is a guy who is around the team more than almost anyone else...

He's also not saying he's not a good use of a DP. Only that he doesn't have an emotional style if leadership. That assessment doesn't surprise me at all.

That is a fair point, and Davidson has an excellent body of work.

I just think people (fans, reporters, everyone really) have weird unconscious biases about where "motivation" comes from and fits into team performance. The results totally inform their conclusions, not the other way around. Bradley's style is one you see a lot, but because we lost, it's a problem.

People go on about the leadership style of Jonathan Toews (and Steve Yzerman before him) - who "lead by example" but never showing emotion or saying anything that isn't banal. But of course it's great with those guys, because they won.

[shwade]

Davidson is wrong. This is suddenly becoming a "thing". I don't see this or accept this. Bradley is intense, but aloof? No way.

The fact that Bradley almost entirely operates behind closed doors, and is measured and respectful in public, is being misconstrued.

Bradley hasn't been worth what he has been paid, but that is a different issue. He remains a good use of a DP slot.

Maybe aloof isn't exactly the right word but you can see it on the field with his teammates...there's a certain lack of warmth or commraderie between the captain and the rest of the guys. You need to be emotional to light a fire under your team.

Yzerman, Toews, Kobe - they could affect the outcome of the game just by themselves. Bradley can't do that so he should be able to at least motivate which he clearly can't judging by how often we come out flat.

[Canary10]

That is a fair point, and Davidson has an excellent body of work.

I just think people (fans, reporters, everyone really) have weird unconscious biases about where "motivation" comes from and fits into team performance. The results totally inform their conclusions, not the other way around. Bradley's style is one you see a lot, but because we lost, it's a problem.

People go on about the leadership style of Jonathan Toews (and Steve Yzerman before him) - who "lead by example" but never showing emotion or saying anything that isn't banal. But of course it's great with those guys, because they won.

Yeah I agree with that. I appreciate his style personally. You need a combination of people who lead with effort and example and those that can rile people up.

[MightyDM]

Davidson is wrong. This is suddenly becoming a "thing". I don't see this or accept this. Bradley is intense, but aloof? No way.

The fact that Bradley almost entirely operates behind closed doors, and is measured and respectful in public, is being misconstrued.

Bradley hasn't been worth what he has been paid, but that is a different issue. He remains a good use of a DP slot.

i completely agree about Bradley's persona with the press being measured and respectful, and that shouldn't be misconstrued. He is a tough and effective player, I loved the staples in his head. I will always cheer for him here. But yet there is a nagging feeling - two managers, one right out of the Premier League, have not been able to get the best out of the team with him in it. Maybe he isn't a fit for us. And maybe we could do really well in a trade or sale to a US media centre. To LA for Gerrard and Dan Gargantuan....

(obviously not the trade but we could get a winger with pace and a RB, or a RB and a CB or a DM like Dax or or or.)

[ensco]

I loved the staples in his head. I will always cheer for him here. But yet there is a nagging feeling - two managers, one right out of the Premier League, have not been able to get the best out of the team with him in it. Maybe he isn't a fit for us.

Well put.

I don't think there is a "trade" out there, given that contract.

The team that needs Michael Bradley more than any other in MLS is Chicago.

[MightyDM]

Good point. He would be transformative there.

[Shakes McQueen]

I still like Bradley, but we need a manager who can get him colouring back inside the lines, so to speak. He's a skilled player, but he tries to do too much sloppy and insane shit, like taking ill-advised shots from 35 yards away. Get a manager who can drill into him exactly what they want from him, and have him stick to that plan.

[jazzy]

I still like Bradley, but we need a manager who can get him colouring back inside the lines, so to speak. He's a skilled player, but he tries to do too much sloppy and insane shit, like taking ill-advised shots from 35 yards away. Get a manager who can drill into him exactly what they want from him, and have him stick to that plan.

This is what we hoped for from the beginning ......is it possible though , Is there a coach who can do this ? His dad is a coach , therefore he isn't unknowledgeable in this partnership . It would solve a huge problem .

[MikeM]

You don't need an Italian coach or a Serie A coach. There are lots of managers or even assistants that can coach a proper defence, I just don't think they're in North America.

[Hamilton_Red]

Mourihno might be available after today. He knows how to organize a defence - that's for sure. There will be no question who has the biggest ego on the team.

[MightyDM]

I still like Bradley, but we need a manager who can get him colouring back inside the lines, so to speak. He's a skilled player, but he tries to do too much sloppy and insane shit, like taking ill-advised shots from 35 yards away. Get a manager who can drill into him exactly what they want from him, and have him stick to that plan.

Yes, that would work too. But something needs to be done. Our last win was without him.

[Bobo]

I still like Bradley, but we need a manager who can get him colouring back inside the lines, so to speak. He's a skilled player, but he tries to do too much sloppy and insane shit, like taking ill-advised shots from 35 yards away. Get a manager who can drill into him exactly what they want from him, and have him stick to that plan.

Agreed. I think the problem with Bradley is that he feels that he can do whatever the hell he wants because there isn't a coach who commands respect from a player of Bradley's stature. What incentive is there for Bradley to really listen too a rookie coach who is seemingly over his head and likely won't cut it in this league? Players need discipline to focus and give their best.

[Super]

Mourihno might be available after today. He knows how to organize a defence - that's for sure. There will be no question who has the biggest ego on the team.

I know you're probably only kidding, but Mourinho's 2015 salary is 18 million Euro. He'd probably want more to come here. It's just a non-starter.

http://en.espn.co.uk/football/sport/story/416229.html

Contrast that with half a million per year for Sigi Schmid:
http://www.soccer-training-info.com/top_soccer_coaches_salaries.asp

[Super]

You don't need an Italian coach or a Serie A coach. There are lots of managers or even assistants that can coach a proper defence, I just don't think they're in North America.

What we need is a PROVEN coach with a successful history. That's a minimum. Anything less than that is a potential disaster waiting to happen. Vanney has proven that he is NOT able to fix our defensive problems, and that he is NOT able to motivate the team when it counts. That's all we know about him at this point. He didn't come here with a record of proving that he DOES know how to fix problems. He's a newbie. We did this to ourselves by hiring inexperience - AGAIN! I mean, it blows my mind that some people can't see that hiring inexperience is riskier than hiring someone who has at least proven they can do the job.

If Vanney is fired he'll likely go join the list of former TFC head coaches who never coached before TFC, and didn't coach post-TFC - because NO ONE except us will hire them. Problem is that we don't learn from our mistakes. There's still people on here who argue against experience as if it's meaningless in football.

[Ossington Mental Youth]

We'd be Chicago.

And Montreal without Drogba? And Seattle without Martins and Dempsey? Its an arguement that means nothing cause the player exists.

yes one of the most tired arguments.
This and 'last year we only had 5 play off spots'.

[Richard]

Mourihno might be available after today. He knows how to organize a defence - that's for sure. There will be no question who has the biggest ego on the team.

I don't give a shit how good he is but I don't want classless scumbags on my team.

[Hamilton_Red]

Agree & yes Mourihno is the definition of arrogant and a bit of dick. There is no reason that we and other MLS teams shouldn't be playing in the top class when it comes to the world's best coaches. I'd put some serious money up for David Moyes - the key will be to sign a top manager who is willing to commit for at least 3-4 seasons.

[Ossington Mental Youth]

I think we should lure Jurgen Klopp away from Liverpool. Cmon ML$E stop being so stingy!

[Lennon]

Why not go after a manager with a good track record from South America? I don't know who this would be, but I bet he'd be more attainable at a fraction of the cost of one from Europe.

[Red CB Toronto]

Why not go after a manager with a good track record from South America? I don't know who this would be, but I bet he'd be more attainable at a fraction of the cost of one from Europe.

I want a coach with a proven MLS track record, simple as that. Someone who knows the league and how to play within it.

[NolbertoS]

Just bribe Robbo from the Caps. I think if TFC doubled his salary and gave Robbo the GM position too, he would dramatically change TFC to a contender. I think Robbo will be gone after next year anyways from MLS, if he continues to succeed. Might as well succeed at TFC with a complete MLSE board of approval. I'm sure Giovinco would think of staying and he'll probably transfer half the veterans for younger, cheaper and good players to make TFC competitive. That's Robbo's strategy and it's paying off well here in MLS

[OgtheDim]

Looking at the 8 coaches still in and all of them are MLS experienced (with the least being Robinson).



Anyways, Robinson isn't coming here as isn't really a stepping stone up to England - success in Vancouver will get him there quicker. That and he has to have younger and cheaper cause of the turf and that team doesn't spend money.

[Fort York Redcoat]

He doesn't have to be Italian in terms of nationality - but coaching for a long time in the Italian league would be a huge help. As MikeM said before, there is a certain way of coaching in Italy when it comes to defending that would help TFC perform.

That being said, it isn't blindly picking an Italian-league coach. Picking Zdenek Zeman for the team would make no sense.

Step in the right direction. Less bias means more options and that's what we need to find someone who'll come here with the right attitude.

Thanks for clarifying.

[jloome]

Need to instill that much earlier. These guys graduate at 22-23 and go to MLS without the understanding of the game.

Personally I find MLS borderline unwatchable because of its slowness.

NCAA rules need to change. Right now, they can sub in and out whenever, so their players just run constantly at their man mark instead of keeping shape. That's why MLS is so chaotic; no on marks people out of the play, no one moves as a full-field unit. It's just constant pressure; it's why when a team like Man Utd takes a friendly against Seattle seriously, they destroy them. Because a disciplined tactical team will just run the ball around the field until their chicken-with-their-heads-off opponents run out of gas.

It's like dink tennis. It can be hard to beat if you're not playing at a high level. If you are, you just kill them with net play.

I agree with the Italian coaching idea, but it's nothing to do with citizenship: The Italian league has been financially gutted. Combine that with the fact that they've always favored defensive shape and counterattack, and you have teams having to do far more with far less money.

But any league with more limited finances and higher draws is probably a good place to find a coach: Switzerland, Japan, Turkey, Argentina, Brazil.

They key, to me, isn't getting a great tactical coach; Aaron Winter had them moving better than any of his predecessors. It's also being enough of a motivator and disciplinarian that you cut out as many stupid mistakes as possible.

I actually think maybe Vanney just isn't smart enough. There were times when we obviously move the ball with more pace and precision, and when we were concentrating on using our skilled spine, we were a far more dangerous team than when we played wide. ANd yet he made the classic rookie coaching mistake of continually trying to outcouch the other team with adaptive formations instead of small adjustments to their own game and shape. So we lacked cohesion constantly. To me, this is something even a friggin Football Manager fan knows will not work.

Having said that, I don't think Jason Kreis or Mike Petke would be any better. Neither strikes me as both intelligent and dominant enough to control the room. The latter, maybe, but not hte former. That's why they got rid of Petke in NY and brought in Jesse Marsh. They knew Petke was not smart enough to survive without Thierry Henry setting up two-out-of-three goals.

If we can't get a better, experienced coach, then I say we keep Vanney. But I figure his job hangs by the thread of availability and Bez's offseason moves.

To me, the bigger issue now is why Bezbatchenko has a job. The successful player he signed, Giovinco, was already a renowned player. In Bradley, he brought in a player too aggressive and self-confident for a milquetoast like Vanney to handle; in Altidore, he brought in a player who has given up being anything but a hold-up man and poacher, despite his potential. And the less said about his defensive picks, the better. Perhaps the fact that he was a USL defender has given him a false sense of security that he knows a good defender when he sees one.

We need someone who understands not only talent and pedigree, but CONSISTENCY and intelligence, are key to who you sign. Kantari and Perquis were coming off strings of failures, with one crocked and not playing even before he was crocked (Perquis) and the other anchoring one of the worst defenses in the French first division right into relegation. What about that didn't send off alarms?

I've afraid his law degree and glasses have given Bez an aura of "smartest guy in the room" to the folks at MLSE. But it's clear from his haphazard choices that he isn't.

[jloome]

I just think people (fans, reporters, everyone really) have weird unconscious biases about ....

Almost everything they do and say, ever. Seriously. I can get into the neuroscience of bias, but neurotypical (non-autistic) people make most of their decisions without thinking about them rationally, most of the time. The human brain is wired to be insecure and unhappy without a constant stream of self-delusion about the world around them.

[jloome]

I still like Bradley, but we need a manager who can get him colouring back inside the lines, so to speak. He's a skilled player, but he tries to do too much sloppy and insane shit, like taking ill-advised shots from 35 yards away. Get a manager who can drill into him exactly what they want from him, and have him stick to that plan.

Yeah, this, absolutely. His lack of discipline ruined his efficacy.

[jloome]

This is what we hoped for from the beginning ......is it possible though , Is there a coach who can do this ? His dad is a coach , therefore he isn't unknowledgeable in this partnership . It would solve a huge problem .

THe most successful teams in the league this season, NY Red Bulls and Dallas, had the two lowest payrolls. MLS coaches are a lot more effective when they don't have multiple players on their roster who believe they would be better coaches, because they are better players.

[jloome]

I want a coach with a proven MLS track record, simple as that. Someone who knows the league and how to play within it.

Zambrano wants back in. Don't know whether his MLS 1.0 experience is good enough anymore. Certainly has always done well.

But I'd take a gunslinger like Osieck who is used to getting the most out of the least and is a huge hardhead. Michael Bradley doesn't mean shit to him.

[Shakes McQueen]

Yeah, this, absolutely. His lack of discipline ruined his efficacy.

I think the rush to call this "his team" contributed to the problem. He needs to be a polished cog inside a better machine, and not one man running around trying to be the savior of "his team". It's clear he can't handle it. Hell, we even played better towards the end of the season when he wasn't in the lineup, which just says everything about the impact he was having on our overall flow.

I think Seba and Bradley can be the core of a really, really good MLS team. I'm less convinced with Altidore. Of course, he was only brought in as a patchwork resolution to the "Defoe Problem" in the first place - not because he was exactly what we needed.

Priority one this winter, needs to be finding better defenders. Priority two, I'm sorry to say, might be finding a manager better suited to our players. I've no idea who that would be.

[jloome]

I think the rush to call this "his team" contributed to the problem. He needs to be a polished cog inside a better machine, and not one man running around trying to be the savior of "his team". It's clear he can't handle it. Hell, we even played better towards the end of the season when he wasn't in the lineup, which just says everything about the impact he was having on our overall flow.

I think Seba and Bradley can be the core of a really, really good MLS team. I'm less convinced with Altidore. Of course, he was only brought in as a patchwork resolution to the "Defoe Problem" in the first place - not because he was exactly what we needed.

Priority one this winter, needs to be finding better defenders. Priority two, I'm sorry to say, might be finding a manager better suited to our players. I've no idea who that would be.

At any given time, there are a hell of a lot more unemployed (or underemployed) coaches than employed. It shouldn't be that hard. Then again, neither should be checking player pedigrees.

[OgtheDim]

..But I'd take a gunslinger like Osieck who is used to getting the most out of the least and is a huge hardhead. Michael Bradley doesn't mean shit to him.

We've discussed why Osieck will never work in Toronto (his comments about women). In an organization that had a major press issue at the first home game with FHRITP, its not even a question.

Find somebody younger and like him and that would work.

[jazzy]

THe most successful teams in the league this season, NY Red Bulls and Dallas, had the two lowest payrolls. MLS coaches are a lot more effective when they don't have multiple players on their roster who believe they would be better coaches, because they are better players.

This unfortunately has been my gut feeling always with Bradley but I've always wanted to be proven wrong . The facts as per Dallas and NYRB's very informative, but is it enough to form a pattern in building future winners ? Especially after our love affair with high cost but totally enjoyable Seba .

[Yohan]

This unfortunately has been my gut feeling always with Bradley but I've always wanted to be proven wrong . The facts as per Dallas and NYRB's very informative, but is it enough to form a pattern in building future winners ? Especially after our love affair with high cost but totally enjoyable Seba .
Dallas and NYRB have an identity and a plan they want to execute.

I haven't seen any from TFC other than throw some money at some good players and hope something works out

[jazzy]

Dallas and NYRB have an identity and a plan they want to execute.

I haven't seen any from TFC other than throw some money at some good players and hope something works out

so is the answer to have the man throwing all $$$ , be much more researched and effective in trying to have successful 'money ' players and the coach simply knows the routine ? ....that said we're still in a fix

[Hamilton_Red]

Interesting point - I think there is likely more depth in the team with avoiding DP's. I also think motivating the entire team would be easier and you would get more cohesiveness.

It seems everyone wants to change out everyone of our defence. IMO that would be about the worst thing we could do. Stability at the back especially if you aren't able to sign the best players is even more important ..giving them time to work together and learn the system. TFC's biggest problem is defending from midfield and the lack of a cohesive system of any sort. With no defensive strength in the mid-field our journeymen back 4 have no chance. Watched both Vancouver and Montreal's games today - TFC has long way to go to catch up. Problem with TFC is that progress is not inevitable - in fact it would be an exception.

[OgtheDim]

So how come TFC would not make last year's playoffs and this is a mark against TC


BUT


the team who won 3 out of 4 of the last MLS Cups including last year isn't involved in the discussion of the type of team that succeeds?


We seem to be finding reasons to fit the negative here. Houston and Philly and Chicago are 3 teams who have not spent this season and were worse then us.

1 year isn't a large enough sample to indicate what works in this league. I would hope the new President will set an identity.

[Smokecell]

So how come TFC would not make last year's playoffs and this is a mark against TC


BUT


the team who won 3 out of 4 of the last MLS Cups including last year isn't involved in the discussion of the type of team that succeeds?


We seem to be finding reasons to fit the negative here. Houston and Philly and Chicago are 3 teams who have not spent this season and were worse then us.

1 year isn't a large enough sample to indicate what works in this league. I would hope the new President will set an identity.

I would argue the Galaxy are the entire discussion of the type of team that succeeds. Anyone who follows MLS should know this. They have shown a willingness to spend money and had that plan succeed, unlike TFC. They have brought up exceptional homegrown talent (Zardes, Jameson III, J.Villa) that blows TFC out of the park and quite frankly the fact that we have 'world class academy facilities' has masked the fact that we have actually produced very little in terms of MLS caliber talent. Let's be frank, Oso has proven that he isn't even starting caliber in this league and if he wasn't Canadian I would bet every last penny that this board would shit on him even more. Second to him there's Doneil who's best known as a central figure in TFC's trademark late collapses. Beyond that...do we even want to go there?

The fact is we don't need to find the negative, the negative has hit us smack in the face for 9 years.

The Galaxy are in the conversation each and every single year and baring this unforeseen late collapse this year, were the consensus pick to win MLS Cup yet again. Many here demand an experienced MLS coach. Guess what, LAG have that. Beyond doubt the LAG are a model to follow for teams like TFC who are willing to throw cash around. It's all in the way its's spent. We don't look for Robbie Keanes we look for Jermaine Defoes...any name that will put a bum in the seats but not necessarily a name that will put a bum into late round playoff seats. We've done this all along. I'd argue there's direct parallels between signing Bradley and Defoe to signing Frings and Koevs years back in terms of bringing in the best talent available who were open to MLS moves at their respective times. This isn't a one year sample size.

If our boys gave it 110% and left it all on the field vs MTL and lost 3-0 I would be supporting until the bitter end. However, seeing the heartless disgrace of a performance that was is inexcusable. This team should have done better. Period.

I rather go down like NE and at least see my star players giving a shit.

[reggie]

thats why i will not renew..because of the i dont give a shit meter in that last game,it was a disgrace to lose to our bitter rivals like that.and the fact that we have not heard from our new prez yet,but im getting email after email about renewing..wtf

[Super]

I believe that Manning is going to be holding a "end of year" press conference tomorrow to address the media. I expect there will be a lot of very tough questions for him to field. Welcome to Toronto!

I like the fact that we hired Manning, but I'm very concerned that he is going to throw his support behind Vanney for the sake of "consistency". Vanney has done nothing but prove that this job is beyond him. His decision making, inability to fix problems, and failure to properly motivate the team has proven to us all that he is in over his head. I will reserve judgement on Manning until after that press conference, but if he chooses to keep inexperience and failure at the helm of this club then I will officially have lost all faith in him as the new president of TFC.

[pdubs]

I believe that Manning is going to be holding a "end of year" press conference tomorrow to address the media. I expect there will be a lot of very tough questions for him to field. Welcome to Toronto!

I like the fact that we hired Manning, but I'm very concerned that he is going to throw his support behind Vanney for the sake of "consistency". Vanney has done nothing but prove that this job is beyond him. His decision making, inability to fix problems, and failure to properly motivate the team has proven to us all that he is in over his head. I will reserve judgement on Manning until after that press conference, but if he chooses to keep inexperience and failure at the helm of this club then I will officially have lost all faith in him as the new president of TFC.

Even tho I think Vanney should be canned, it must be someone who is a clear upgrade over him. If not then we are just spinning our wheels again. For example if we fire Vanney then put Fraser in place what is truly the point? As bad as the season ended he did get us into the playoffs. Granted many have said that was on the back of Giovinco but honestly a lot of teams rely on their big DP's to deliver something special. Giovinco is more then special it is what it is. If a Kreis or someone of that ilk is available, no question pull the trigger. Experiences European manager? Yea maybe. Another Nelson/Vanney experiment, nope.

[ronzilla]

Vanney should have been fired at the end of the game. He had the entire season to make this team into a contender and failed miserably. Last playoff spot. :facepalm: He makes poor decisions and does nothing at all to correct them for the following games. Very inept coaching and should have never been hired in the first place. What worries me most is he could be back next year and even with the addition of a few new players, this team will be fighting for last playoff spot and get run over again if they make the knock-outs. This guy is delusional if he believes he brought the team into their first playoffs, when it was clearly Giovinco's success. Vanney is a cancer to this team.

[trane]

NCAA rules need to change. Right now, they can sub in and out whenever, so their players just run constantly at their man mark instead of keeping shape. That's why MLS is so chaotic; no on marks people out of the play, no one moves as a full-field unit. It's just constant pressure; it's why when a team like Man Utd takes a friendly against Seattle seriously, they destroy them. Because a disciplined tactical team will just run the ball around the field until their chicken-with-their-heads-off opponents run out of gas.

It's like dink tennis. It can be hard to beat if you're not playing at a high level. If you are, you just kill them with net play.

I agree with the Italian coaching idea, but it's nothing to do with citizenship: The Italian league has been financially gutted. Combine that with the fact that they've always favored defensive shape and counterattack, and you have teams having to do far more with far less money.

But any league with more limited finances and higher draws is probably a good place to find a coach: Switzerland, Japan, Turkey, Argentina, Brazil.

They key, to me, isn't getting a great tactical coach; Aaron Winter had them moving better than any of his predecessors. It's also being enough of a motivator and disciplinarian that you cut out as many stupid mistakes as possible.

I actually think maybe Vanney just isn't smart enough. There were times when we obviously move the ball with more pace and precision, and when we were concentrating on using our skilled spine, we were a far more dangerous team than when we played wide. ANd yet he made the classic rookie coaching mistake of continually trying to outcouch the other team with adaptive formations instead of small adjustments to their own game and shape. So we lacked cohesion constantly. To me, this is something even a friggin Football Manager fan knows will not work.

Having said that, I don't think Jason Kreis or Mike Petke would be any better. Neither strikes me as both intelligent and dominant enough to control the room. The latter, maybe, but not hte former. That's why they got rid of Petke in NY and brought in Jesse Marsh. They knew Petke was not smart enough to survive without Thierry Henry setting up two-out-of-three goals.

If we can't get a better, experienced coach, then I say we keep Vanney. But I figure his job hangs by the thread of availability and Bez's offseason moves.

To me, the bigger issue now is why Bezbatchenko has a job. The successful player he signed, Giovinco, was already a renowned player. In Bradley, he brought in a player too aggressive and self-confident for a milquetoast like Vanney to handle; in Altidore, he brought in a player who has given up being anything but a hold-up man and poacher, despite his potential. And the less said about his defensive picks, the better. Perhaps the fact that he was a USL defender has given him a false sense of security that he knows a good defender when he sees one.

We need someone who understands not only talent and pedigree, but CONSISTENCY and intelligence, are key to who you sign. Kantari and Perquis were coming off strings of failures, with one crocked and not playing even before he was crocked (Perquis) and the other anchoring one of the worst defenses in the French first division right into relegation. What about that didn't send off alarms?

I've afraid his law degree and glasses have given Bez an aura of "smartest guy in the room" to the folks at MLSE. But it's clear from his haphazard choices that he isn't.

Great points.

As critical as I have been, I have given Vanney credit for some solid offensive play through out the year, but when I think about it, I cannot think of one game that our good offensive performance was not against a team that could defend well ( by MLS standards), it always seems that we had good offensive games against teams that were also poor defensively.

[notthesun]

Great points.

As critical as I have been, I have given Vanney credit for some solid offensive play through out the year, but when I think about it, I cannot think of one game that our good offensive performance was not against a team that could defend well ( by MLS standards), it always seems that we had good offensive games against teams that were also poor defensively.

We murdered San Jose at home who gave up 39 goals on the year, tied 2nd best in the league. That was probably our best game of the season in terms of sheer performance. Your point in general stands though, most of our best games came against lesser opposition (about what you'd expect for a mediocre team, which we were).

[Ossington Mental Youth]

Also beat DC away and NYRB at home. But yeah we had some defensive horrors too

[notthesun]

Also beat DC away and NYRB at home. But yeah we had some defensive horrors too

The win at D.C. was our best result of the year. Home field advantage is the great equalizer in MLS, so beating (at the time) the 1st place team in their park with a solid overall performance was huge. On the other hand getting blanked by Columbus at home when even a draw would have guaranteed a home playoff date was the ultimate choke.

Our performance in the playoff game was dreadful but the results to end the year - two road losses to one of the hottest teams in the league - are not very surprising. The narrative that the regular season is worthless because of the playoff format or the expanded playoffs is complete baloney. Every home team won their knock out game.

Columbus in the penultimate week and the home opener loss vs. Houston go down as our worst losses of the season IMO.

[notthesun]

UPDATE: Jason Kreis has been sacked. (http://www.nycfc.com/post/2015/11/02/jason-kreis-leaves-post-new-york-city-fc-head-coach)

Commence wild speculation.

[Ivy]

UPDATE: Jason Kreis has been sacked. (http://www.nycfc.com/post/2015/11/02/jason-kreis-leaves-post-new-york-city-fc-head-coach)

Commence wild speculation.
Would it be really THAT wild?

[notthesun]

God damn, they did not mince words either in that statement. Threw him under the bus and ran over him a few times for good measure.

[notthesun]

It begins.

https://twitter.com/TaylorTwellman/status/661326615142653952

[Super]

Get Jason Kreis this very minute. I read somewhere that he was on a $1 million salary per year. Surely it's worth it to bring in a successful and experienced manager who has actually won the cup? Let's just do this!

End of year presser tomorrow. Will probably learn that Vanney stays. Hope not.

[Ossington Mental Youth]

Id be shocked if Vanney goes. If he does Bez does too so we can also expect another GM and yet more turn over.

[Super]

Would Manning pick Vanney over Kreis? A man that turned around RSL and won the league?

I don't know. I hope he's smart enough to make the obvious choice.

[Lennon]

Kreis doesn't seem like the biggest fan of MLSE. I remember him speaking out about us not giving Preki enough time. I'd be pretty surprised if he signs here.

[Red CB Toronto]

Kreis doesn't seem like the biggest fan of MLSE. I remember him speaking out about us not giving Preki enough time. I'd be pretty surprised if he signs here.

Having Bill Manning here would solve that problem as they are very familiar with each other have worked together at RSL for years. In many ways it's a perfect fit.

[Super]

Having Bill Manning here would solve that problem as they are very familiar with each other have worked together at RSL for years. In many ways it's a perfect fit.

Sure does sound like it. They know each other really well, so there's no way Manning is not aware of Kreis' situation right now. He should also know that the majority of TFC fans want Vanney out. In comparison the majority of NYCFC fans actually wanted Kreis to stay. Always tough to start a brand new team from year zero. At least Portland, Seattle, Vancouver, Montreal, Orlando started with a foundation of playing in the USL/NASL.

[Yohan]

Sure does sound like it. They know each other really well, so there's no way Manning is not aware of Kreis' situation right now. He should also know that the majority of TFC fans want Vanney out. In comparison the majority of NYCFC fans actually wanted Kreis to stay. Always tough to start a brand new team from year zero. At least Portland, Seattle, Vancouver, Montreal, Orlando started with a foundation of playing in the USL/NASL.
did you take a poll or something? because other than few people here, doesn't seem like people are on fire vanney train yet

[Yohan]

If Kreis is interested in TFC, (and that's a big if), then Vanney's days are numbered.

Then again, Kreis will be under pressure to deliver immediate results, and what if even Kreis stumbles for whatever reason? We're far too easy to pull out a blade on a manager. Will Vanney's credentials buy him a 2nd year? Because this TFC roster cannot play the way Kreis normally plays.

And if Vanney goes, Bez needs to go with him.

[Super]

did you take a poll or something? because other than few people here, doesn't seem like people are on fire vanney train yet

I really haven't seen that many people, if any, come out in complete support for Vanney. I don't know any personally. Where are you seeing this? The main reason some people don't want Vanney fired is because we tend to then turn around and hire another inexperienced coach. Again. Again, again. I don't want that either. But I'd trade him for an experienced coach with a successful history, and certainly Kreis fits that package.

[pdubs]

Where's the dump drunk full of cash?

I think this is a hire most people would be pleased with. I should would be.

[Ultra & Proud]

did you take a poll or something? because other than few people here, doesn't seem like people are on fire vanney train yet
People are for sure. Lots of people I have talked to are on the sack Vanney train or even worse, the fuck TFC and follow another team train. That flat display put a very bad taste in a lot of people's mouths and they are looking at the manager as the one to blame. The only one who gets off sort of easy is Bez. People are happy he got Seba and even Bradley & Jozy. They tend to overlook the duds he acquired also.

[Yohan]

I really haven't seen that many people, if any, come out in complete support for Vanney. I don't know any personally. Where are you seeing this? The main reason some people don't want Vanney fired is because we tend to then turn around and hire another inexperienced coach. Again. Again, again. I don't want that either. But I'd trade him for an experienced coach with a successful history, and certainly Kreis fits that package.
you don't have to say something to support Vanney. or to fire Vanney.

assuming something is pretty silly thing to do, with lacking evidence

[Areathrasher]

Twellman has been pretty bang on when it comes to being and MLS insider/rumor guy for the last few years.

If he's saying he fancies TFC, then there is probably smoke to that fire.

[Super]

you don't have to say something to support Vanney. or to fire Vanney.

assuming something is pretty silly thing to do, with lacking evidence

All you have to do is go on Twitter for a bit, read user comments for a bit, read the comments in here, and you'll easily find that it's clearly the vast majority of TFC supporters who are not happy with Vanney - and would replace him with a more experienced coach. You don't need to do a poll to also know that the vast majority of "people" left in The Walking Dead are, well, walking dead. I've seen hundreds of people speak out about Vanney with great negativity, and maybe a handful wanting otherwise.

It's pretty safe to assume.

[Yohan]

Twellman has been pretty bang on when it comes to being and MLS insider/rumor guy for the last few years.

If he's saying he fancies TFC, then their is probably smoke to that fire.
or Twellman could just be trying to put 2+2 together, but with TFC, the answer usually ends up being 5 :p

tomorrow's press conference should be interesting...

for the record, I'm on board hiring Kreis only if
1. Bez also gets fired. Vanney is Bez's man. I doubt he wants to work with Kreis. The GM must be on same page with the manager. And Bez has enough of an ego.
2. Kreis gets at least 2 seasons. This TFC roster is one Giovinco long term injury away from missing out the playoffs, and there is going to be some turnovers. (though Robbie Findley probably survives the cut)
3. Either Bradley gets traded or gets told to know his role. I prefer trade because Bradley has too much influence with TFC hierarchy, way too much for merely a player. (Lampard pretty much got Kreis fired IMO) Kreis has to own the locker room, and he'll butt heads with Bradley if Bradley doesn't toe the line.

[notthesun]

If we do choose to get Kreis over Vanney, Bez is definitely out as well.

In that case, what happens to the vacant GM role? Can Manning and Kreis take over the responsibilities? Usually you'd want your GM picking his coach...

[Pint]

I have not heard a single person say that vanney has done a good job.

In the end kreis makes way too much sense for this team for it to actually happen .

[Ossington Mental Youth]

did you take a poll or something? because other than few people here, doesn't seem like people are on fire vanney train yet

Thank you, was going to point this out to.

[ag futbol]

We would be absolutely mental to not hire Kreis. He literally ticks all the boxes.

I don't care if Vanney has done a good job or not - proven performance is the bottom line. Tack on the fact he plays a style that reasonably fits the current makeup of our roster and it is a no-brainer.

Back up the truck with money already.

[Super]

Thank you, was going to point this out to.

So do you think the majority of TFC fans want to keep Vanney? I know you and Yohan are not fans of assumptions, but I honestly haven't seen but a few people who want to keep Vanney. Do you need a poll for this?

[pdubs]

We would be absolutely mental to not hire Kreis. He literally ticks all the boxes.

I don't care if Vanney has done a good job or not - proven performance is the bottom line. Tack on the fact he plays a style that reasonably fits the current makeup of our roster and it is a no-brainer.

Back up the truck with money already.

100% Most of have been asking for an experienced MLS who has had success. Kreis was in a bad position at NYCFC with a really old DP core he was forced to play. I don't care how, get Kreis here before someone snatches him up. Give him 2 years to fully implement his system. Lez go.

[pdubs]

Poll poll poll!

[Super]

Judging by Twitter there's a lot of unhappy NYCFC fans.

I wonder if the response would be the same if Vanney was sacked.

Feel free to see what they say in the comments: https://twitter.com/NYCFC

This could be sent from the heavens for us if we're smart enough to go for it.

[bgnewf]

how much worse could it have been to play Ashtone Morgan IN POSITION and Justin Morrow IN POSITION all season? Feel like the obvious was NEVER tried this past year.

[Yohan]

how much worse could it have been to play Ashtone Morgan IN POSITION and Justin Morrow IN POSITION all season? Feel like the obvious was NEVER tried this past year.
uh, both Morrow and Morgan are LBs?

[Detroit_TFC]

Kreis makes sense and I think Manning would consider, but only if Kreis really wants the job. He's not going to beg him.

Bez is not getting fired. Put that out of your head.

[Ossington Mental Youth]

So do you think the majority of TFC fans want to keep Vanney? I know you and Yohan are not fans of assumptions, but I honestly haven't seen but a few people who want to keep Vanney. Do you need a poll for this?

Wouldnt hurt but youre right, i dont like assumptions.

[Ossington Mental Youth]

Wouldnt hurt but youre right, i dont like assumptions.

A poll on here still doesnt represent a majority of TFC fans ftr

[Hamilton_Red]

I'd go for it make an offer - nothing to lose trying to improve the most important position in the club. It would save a fortune in Player signings if you had a good manager. You don't have to fire Vanney first only if your offer is accepted.

[Super]

A poll on here still doesnt represent a majority of TFC fans ftr

If that's your criteria then we can never say the "majority wants, etc." on here. In fact, we can't even assume that TFC fans want to win. Honestly, I don't know why this became such a big thing. So let's just say that some people want him gone. Not very descriptive of the mood that's out there, though.

[Hamilton_Red]

They sure did - that is hilarious. NYCFC will have a Man City roller coaster. Maybe Lampard will be the player coach?


God damn, they did not mince words either in that statement. Threw him under the bus and ran over him a few times for good measure.

[Yohan]

They sure did - that is hilarious. NYCFC will have a Man City roller coaster. Maybe Lampard will be the player coach?
Rumour says Vieira to NYC farm club

[DinamoTFC]

UPDATE: Jason Kreis has been sacked. (http://www.nycfc.com/post/2015/11/02/jason-kreis-leaves-post-new-york-city-fc-head-coach)

Commence wild speculation.

I'd welcome him with open arms.

[ag futbol]

Bez is not getting fired. Put that out of your head.
Why not? He's in inexperienced hire with no track record. We've fired people with way more sticking power than him.

[Yohan]

http://www.mlssoccer.com/post/2015/11/02/armchair-analyst-word-jason-kreis-nycfc-and-team-building-mls

Matt Doyle on Kreis firing

[DinamoTFC]

http://www.mlssoccer.com/post/2015/11/02/armchair-analyst-word-jason-kreis-nycfc-and-team-building-mls

Matt Doyle on Kreis firing

For specific details - Kreis helped RSL make the playoffs 7 years in a row, win a championship, play attractive soccer and all this on a low budget. That's the experience this club badly needs.