The Vanney Era Deathwatch Thread

[trane]

I'm pretty sure that Bruce Arena's opinion matters more than any opinion held by the soccer public or pundits, and he rates Vanney as good. I think everyone is forgetting that MLS doesn't just exist to improve the American player pool, but also the American coaching pool as well. Vanney isn't going anywhere - the Don and USSF want him developing with good talent at his disposal so he knows what to do with it when he eventually becomes a USMNT coach in about 3 world cup cycles.

I do not give a shit about Bruce fucking Arena. Vanney may end up being a great coach somewhere else, and he has done some good things here. But he has not been able to get this team to defend all season long, and before, and he has costs us games. AGAIN I am not for firing him, just so that we can once again hire the next unproven manager.

[brad]

It doesn't take two seasons to figure out if someone is right manager or not.

I feel like Vanney is wrong choice from beginning due to lack of experience. Not only that, but when TFC spending big money on players, then making playoffs shouldn't be their main goal. TFC should be aiming for Eastern Conference title at least.

TFC needs an experience manager who can handle big name players while able to get best out of average MLS player. TFC simply don't have enough time to train/groom a manager who could one day be able to handle this club direction.

This is harder than you think. There is a big difference between dealing with big name players and the "lowly" MLS regulars. Not a lot of managers are going to have that range of experience.

And for experienced managers coming in from a higher level, it is going to be a real challenge and source of frustration when you have to work with players who don't have the fundamental knowledge and skill set they are used to all players having.

And spending big money has a limited effect when it can only go into 3 players. 3 players have yet to carry an entire team to success in this league. You need a strong core of regular MLSers to play with those players to succeed.

[trane]

I agree with Vanney in that I do not believe that the backline was the problem in the last game.


I still hope that he can get this team to defend well, I just have trouble seeing it.

Has vanney not had a full year yet? It has been just about a year since Nelsen was fired.

[CommradePolski]

Vanney hasn't even been the coach for a full year, yet alone two seasons. TFC should be aiming for the Eastern Conference, of course, but you don't go from worst in the league to best in less than a year. Bez and Vanney inherited a shitshow of a roster and have done a good job of cleaning it up, boosted by some big name signings. Building depth and a system takes longer than a year or even two, no matter how much experience the manager has. Especially in MLS where depth players are so important because of the cap.

I question whether we are getting the most out of this roster with Vanney, but we are not contenders in this league yet. We have a solid foundation, but we need more depth. Bez addressed the backup scoring issue by bringing in Herculez and he thought he'd helped the defence with Kantari, who has been underwhelming. But the most troublesome thing for me from the last few games is that our midfield, supposedly one of our strengths, has been overrun. This also makes our defence look worse than it is. But firing yet another coach after less than a year at the helm is one of the few things this organization hasn't tried yet.

See DC United. They did. They were the worst of the lot in 2013 and in 2014 were top of the East. In this league it is possible to go from the worst to the best in one season.

EDIT: To add to the DC United comment, they were 2nd overall in the East in 2012.

I know most of you have seen the All For One episodes, if not go on youtube, and all I can say, whenever theyve shown Vanney trying to fire the team up before a match and say something, he comes across as a wet noodle IMO. I dont feel anything from Vanney in the locker room scenes in A41, absolutely nothing. Its almost demotivating.

[brad]

See DC United. They did. They were the worst of the lot in 2013 and in 2014 were top of the East. In this league it is possible to go from the worst to the best in one season.

EDIT: To add to the DC United comment, they were 2nd overall in the East in 2012.

I know most of you have seen the All For One episodes, if not go on youtube, and all I can say, whenever theyve shown Vanney trying to fire the team up before a match and say something, he comes across as a wet noodle IMO. I dont feel anything from Vanney in the locker room scenes in A41, absolutely nothing. Its almost demotivating.

NYRB did it as well. Dead last in the East in 2009, first in the East in 2010.

DC are an interesting case. Olsen, a manager with no experience took over mid-season in 2010 and had a record of 3W-8L-1D for the remainder of that season. The following years:
2011 - 7th in the East
2012 - 2nd in the East
2013 - dead last in the East
2014 - 1st in the East
2015 - Currently first in the East

So yes, DC did turn it around over the course of one season, but after their coach had been there for a few years already.

[Ajax TFC]

DC also had a decent base, but they came in last. Then they signed a bunch of experienced MLS players using their "you suck" allocation, which tipped the balance.
TFC signed a bunch of quality players, but still don't have the domestic depth needed. Most of our domestic depth is still young and inexperienced.

[molenshtain]

Let's keep in mind that we have a stupendously easy run in. While unlikely, I could see us winning every game after Seattle away on Sep 5th.

[trane]

If this version of the TFC management team really is better than past regimes, they will do what no other TFC front office has ever done in the 8+ losing seasons:
Stay the course with the coach they have.

If they do change managers now - they are no better than past regimes.
No better than MoJo years, no better than the Anselmi after Mojo years - doesn't matter what coach they bring in because they would be losers just like those other guys.
Losers who don't know what the fuck they are doing. Doesn't matter if they bring in Jose Mourinho - they will fuck it up because that is the trend they would be following.

If 8+ years of no playoffs has taught this club anything - it should be not to fire/push out the manager to try and get into the playoffs.

We have always kept managers way longer then needed to realize that they were not cutting it, and then hired the first person who was available. Keeping someone who is not doing the job, after it is clear that he cannot do the job, is exactly what we have always done. Hiring someone who has no proven track record is also a problem. If you brought in someone who has proven that he can win, and has won over a extended period of time, I may even be ok with well lets keep him for two season to realy give him a chance, reasoning. But bringing in someone who does not have a track record at this level of football, who has not been able to address the teams primary problems, in the seasons worth of games, just to see if he can change is wishful thinking.

Again having said that I am not a 100% against Vanney in that we have played better then ever in some games, but I am unsure that he will ever be able to get the defensive side of things in order.

[ManUtd4ever]

Let's keep in mind that we have a stupendously easy run in. While unlikely, I could see us winning every game after Seattle away on Sep 5th.

I would like to agree with you, but based on our recent form, we shouldn't take anything for granted. We have to regain the form we had earlier in the season. Our possession and movement off the ball was our strength.

[barticusz]

This is a great write up on the best shot limiting teams in MLS.. I'd love to see what TFC's heat map looks like.

http://www.americansocceranalysis.com/home/2015/8/17/shot-limiting-bringing-the-heat-maps

[OgtheDim]

There are heat maps available on whoscored. Just not the sort of one this guy is using, which is taken from Opta and costs serious coin to get.

[barticusz]

There are heat maps available on whoscored. Just not the sort of one this guy is using, which is taken from Opta and costs serious coin to get.

Yea the whoscored ones just show the average position of the players.. not where the tackles are made.

[MightyDM]

Just a couple of points: we did well under Carter and Cummins. I don't think it would be fair to say they made no adjustments. Secondly, but for a couple of games this season, Vanney's team have been totally porous at the back, and in more than two thirds of his games we have given up the first goal in the first half. This speaks to something missing in his coaching.

I meant Carver....

[MightyDM]

Carver. Ooooops.

[MightyDM]

Vanney hasn't even been the coach for a full year, yet alone two seasons. TFC should be aiming for the Eastern Conference, of course, but you don't go from worst in the league to best in less than a year. Bez and Vanney inherited a shitshow of a roster and have done a good job of cleaning it up, boosted by some big name signings. Building depth and a system takes longer than a year or even two, no matter how much experience the manager has. Especially in MLS where depth players are so important because of the cap.

I question whether we are getting the most out of this roster with Vanney, but we are not contenders in this league yet. We have a solid foundation, but we need more depth. Bez addressed the backup scoring issue by bringing in Herculez and he thought he'd helped the defence with Kantari, who has been underwhelming. But the most troublesome thing for me from the last few games is that our midfield, supposedly one of our strengths, has been overrun. This also makes our defence look worse than it is. But firing yet another coach after less than a year at the helm is one of the few things this organization hasn't tried yet.

have to disagree. Nelsen and Payne inherited the shit show of the roster and did the heavy lifting in cleaning it up. Our midfield is being over run in the diamond, exposing our lack of pace and width, but Vanney doesn't make changes to counter this until wa too late - for example, Jackson has been playing well and is tough and faster than Delgado. He should have been on the pitch vs NY to start, or at least at the half. And that's all on Vanney.

[Areathrasher]

Jackson was injured.


Jackson, who also started on Aug. 5 continues to recover from a hamstring injury he suffered last week during training.

http://www.torontofc.ca/news/2015/08/three-storylines-midfield-changes

[MightyDM]

Jackson was injured.



http://www.torontofc.ca/news/2015/08/three-storylines-midfield-changes

didnt see that before the game. So that's not on vanney, but the previous game he made positional selection errors moving Delgado and Warner when they had been working so well together with Osorio. For that game, with Cheyrou out, Bradley should have been in his position and the others should have been left alone as the position was working. And Delgado isn't a winger. You could see all game that everyone was hesitating.

[Jack]

have to disagree. Nelsen and Payne inherited the shit show of the roster and did the heavy lifting in cleaning it up. Our midfield is being over run in the diamond, exposing our lack of pace and width, but Vanney doesn't make changes to counter this until wa too late - for example, Jackson has been playing well and is tough and faster than Delgado. He should have been on the pitch vs NY to start, or at least at the half. And that's all on Vanney.

Our roster was still a shit show last season.

[maninb]

Okay so he's not the greatest manager on the planet...You could give Mourinho this team and we might have 2-3 more points....Point is Bradley and Altidore are damaged goods and no better than average MLS players now and their our DPs, so besides the ANT(best player in the league at present) we've got a VERY average team with THE WORST goalies in the league....If we make the playoffs I'd be very surprised and then the team be be BLOWN UP as usual...

[notthesun]

How is Bradley damaged goods? Are you watching games on your DVR from last year?

He's been great this season, easily our best midfielder (Cheyrou has had some fantastic performances but has been slightly inconsistent). Yeah he was bad against the Red Bulls last weekend but who wasn't? His foot is healed and it's clearly showing, it's just a shame he's missed so many games due to international duty.

[ag futbol]

Our roster was still a shit show last season.
They cleaned up other people's shit, then brought in their own.

[Ajax TFC]

They cleaned up other people's shit, then brought in their own.
Yup. Lets not forget that they traded away the first overall pick all the way down to 18 for allocation money that they used to get guys on loan from QPR and Spurs, then drafted Bekker third overall. We had the first and third overall picks in that draft, and nothing at all to show for it today. We traded picks that could have been used on players that would have been key today for temporary cap space so we would suck slightly less that season.

Last season the roster wasn't horrible, but it was glaringly obvious that we needed a DM and some creativity up top. Yet we played all season with a double pivot and a pair of poachers up top.

[OgtheDim]

Wheras this season we got a DM, a wonder dude in Giovinco, a ? in Jozy, got Bradly playing decently until the Gold Cup, discovered we have decent shuttlers in Delgado Osorio and Warner, had Jackson become decent, got Morgan back on track and got a couple of MLS class CD's.

All while discovering that Creavalle is not a RB, Findley really can't score, Hagglund has a sophmore jinx, Caldwell (who was supposed to mentor Perquis into the league) got busted, Bloom had a season ending injury, without any decent wide player baring Lovitz, and our keepers have not gained the confidence of the team.


Win some....lose some.

[notthesun]

Yup. Lets not forget that they traded away the first overall pick all the way down to 18 for allocation money that they used to get guys on loan from QPR and Spurs, then drafted Bekker third overall. We had the first and third overall picks in that draft, and nothing at all to show for it today. We traded picks that could have been used on players that would have been key today for temporary cap space so we would suck slightly less that season.

This will probably go down as the worst draft in MLS history. We drafted two complete busts, passed on 3 studs (Farrell, Manneh, Powers - to say nothing of a handful of other good players available), and did absolutely nothing worthwhile with the allocation we got. Payne set us back a full year in one day's work.

And the worst part is I remember thinking on the day, and I'm pretty sure posting on this board, that we won the draft. Oh god.

[Richard]

I believe everyone in MLS thought we won that draft hands down, good god what a colossal failure that was.

[OgtheDim]

This will probably go down as the worst draft in MLS history. We drafted two complete busts, passed on 3 studs (Farrell, Manneh, Powers - to say nothing of a handful of other good players available), and did absolutely nothing worthwhile with the allocation we got. .

My understanding is we used that allocation to get out of the Hassli contract and the Ecks contract and a few others. Bad draft for who we got but the rumours at the time were we were over the cap by quite a bit and thus needed the allocation to be able to afford anybody above 100K.

[molenshtain]

My understanding is we used that allocation to get out of the Hassli contract and the Ecks contract and a few others. Bad draft for who we got but the rumours at the time were we were over the cap by quite a bit and thus needed the allocation to be able to afford anybody above 100K.

also helped in the acquisitions of Morrow and Jackson.

[Ultra & Proud]

Okay so he's not the greatest manager on the planet...You could give Mourinho this team and we might have 2-3 more points....Point is Bradley and Altidore are damaged goods and no better than average MLS players now and their our DPs, so besides the ANT(best player in the league at present) we've got a VERY average team with THE WORST goalies in the league....If we make the playoffs I'd be very surprised and then the team be be BLOWN UP as usual...
I think with Seba and the squad we have now, Nelsen probably would have about the same points with better defense but much shittier offense. Seba would have been the difference in that counter attacking system. And Nelsen isn't any good either. If we had a guy with some credibility, experience, and a game plan in there from the start this season then we wouldn't have done those things that cost us points early on (Creavalle!) and what are costing us now (Bendik!). From that alone we should be at least 7 points better but probably more. Even at 7 more than we have now we'd be looking pretty good.

[trane]

this is by far the best roster we have ever had, and even nelsen would have done better, it would not have been pretty, we would not have been as good offensively as we did at times, but ie we just defended as well as we did for him, which was not great but better then it is now, and just allowed Gio and Altidore to do there thing, backed up by Bradley we would have had another 6-12 points by now.

[molenshtain]

this is by far the best roster we have ever had, and even nelsen would have done better, it would not have been pretty, we would not have been as good offensively as we did at times, but ie we just defended as well as we did for him, which was not great but better then it is now, and just allowed Gio and Altidore to do there thing, backed up by Bradley we would have had another 6-12 points by now.

we didn't defend well with Nelsen, we just held a lot of guys back. It was Nelsen's decision not to play with a true DM in a formation that required it. halfway through the season when teams found out you could just send late runners through the centre of the pitch we continually got clobbered by teams with 5 man midfields. Nelsen was awful and got us too a good position for a portion of the season on the back of the talent of individual players.

[Ossington Mental Youth]

we didn't defend well with Nelsen, we just held a lot of guys back. It was Nelsen's decision not to play with a true DM in a formation that required it. halfway through the season when teams found out you could just send late runners through the centre of the pitch we continually got clobbered by teams with 5 man midfields. Nelsen was awful and got us too a good position for a portion of the season on the back of the talent of individual players.

not to mention players out of position etc etc, yeah definitely think Vanney is a better coach regardless of his short comings

[Ajax TFC]

And the worst part is I remember thinking on the day, and I'm pretty sure posting on this board, that we won the draft. Oh god.
Yeah, I remember thinking the same thing. At the time Bekker had just been the best player at the combine, and Welshman was a standout too. We all believed that we had just drafted two awesome Canadian players, and gotten more cap space at the same time. In reality, Bekker's lazy side had already shown in his appearances for the Canadian youth teams, and Welshman never even got a chance.


My understanding is we used that allocation to get out of the Hassli contract and the Ecks contract and a few others. Bad draft for who we got but the rumours at the time were we were over the cap by quite a bit and thus needed the allocation to be able to afford anybody above 100K.
I remember Payne saying we were right up against the cap. We couldn't have been over it since at the time Koevermans was the only DP on our books. The idea was that the allocation money was to give us space to sign more players. We could have drafted a couple of GA players that wouldn't have taken up any cap space.

also helped in the acquisitions of Morrow and Jackson.
Those players were acquired the next season though.

I think with Seba and the squad we have now, Nelsen probably would have about the same points with better defense but much shittier offense. Seba would have been the difference in that counter attacking system. And Nelsen isn't any good either. If we had a guy with some credibility, experience, and a game plan in there from the start this season then we wouldn't have done those things that cost us points early on (Creavalle!) and what are costing us now (Bendik!). From that alone we should be at least 7 points better but probably more. Even at 7 more than we have now we'd be looking pretty good.
I get what you're saying, but I'd just like to point out that if Nelsen were the coach... we wouldn't have Giovinco. Our DPs would be Gilberto and maybe Defoe, but probably not, and our team would still have no clue how to give them decent service.

[trane]

we didn't defend well with Nelsen, we just held a lot of guys back. It was Nelsen's decision not to play with a true DM in a formation that required it. halfway through the season when teams found out you could just send late runners through the centre of the pitch we continually got clobbered by teams with 5 man midfields. Nelsen was awful and got us too a good position for a portion of the season on the back of the talent of individual players.

I never said that we defended well, I said that we defended better I specifically said " it was not great", and yes it was mostly based on simply holding people back, but I think that with the roster we have this year, if we did that, we would be better off.

I also think that we have looked better with Vanney then Nelsen, but you do not get points for looking good you gets points by winning or at least no losing. I was not happy with the way we played under nelsen because I agree while we stayed back we did not defend well, we were not organized enough, but again with the offensive talent we have, I think we would get more points, by playing simple footy all nelsen.

[MightyDM]

They cleaned up other people's shit, then brought in their own.

thats unfair to Payne and Nelsen. Point to a contract that was an anchor they brought in. They cleaned up a mess and advanced things a long way. The club was able to move on with the Bloody Big Deal, etc, because of that work.

[MightyDM]

I think with Seba and the squad we have now, Nelsen probably would have about the same points with better defense but much shittier offense. Seba would have been the difference in that counter attacking system. And Nelsen isn't any good either. If we had a guy with some credibility, experience, and a game plan in there from the start this season then we wouldn't have done those things that cost us points early on (Creavalle!) and what are costing us now (Bendik!). From that alone we should be at least 7 points better but probably more. Even at 7 more than we have now we'd be looking pretty good.

nelsen had and has loads of credibility in the football world. Loads. Captained an undefeated team in the World Cup and widely respected throughout the BPL.

[MightyDM]

this is by far the best roster we have ever had, and even nelsen would have done better, it would not have been pretty, we would not have been as good offensively as we did at times, but ie we just defended as well as we did for him, which was not great but better then it is now, and just allowed Gio and Altidore to do there thing, backed up by Bradley we would have had another 6-12 points by now.

About right, I would say.

[Ajax TFC]

thats unfair to Payne and Nelsen. Point to a contract that was an anchor they brought in. They cleaned up a mess and advanced things a long way. The club was able to move on with the Bloody Big Deal, etc, because of that work.
I think it's more what they didn't leave than what they did. We came away from a draft where we had the first and third picks with absolutely nothing. And Payne fucked up the Laba deal to the point where he had to be made a DP (rumor is Laba wasn't supposed to cost a transfer fee), which they then had to get rid of to fit Bradley in.

[MightyDM]

I think it's more what they didn't leave than what they did. We came away from a draft where we had the first and third picks with absolutely nothing. And Payne fucked up the Laba deal to the point where he had to be made a DP (rumor is Laba wasn't supposed to cost a transfer fee), which they then had to get rid of to fit Bradley in.

This part of the discussion started with someone saying that we had to take apart Nelsens roster - your post proves that that wasn't the case. And did Payne screw up the draft? Maybe, maybe not, but nelsen was playing in the BPL at that point. Not on him.
and as for Laba, at the time, loads of us, including me, said "let Gilberto go" and we're told it couldn't be done. Mistake then and always.

Nelsen had strengths and weaknesses, but if we keep painting the previous regime as a disaster and ignore what they did well, we won't see the current regime properly either. Rinse and repeat.

[OgtheDim]

nelsen had and has loads of credibility in the football world. Loads. Captained an undefeated team in the World Cup and widely respected throughout the BPL.

Yes, and still not the right coach for our situation at the time. He'll land somewhere where he can learn. To be honest I'm surprised he's not an assistant in charge of defenders somewhere in the Championship.

Reputations gained after playing might be playing a role there I suppose.

BTW, we could talk about Nelsen's unwillingness to use basic monitoring systems offered and analytics provided. And we could discuss how he had lost the locker room (Vanney hasn't).

And we could talk about how people had solved our defence. Watch the NER game before he was fired. Ugh.....

So, no, Nelsen would not have done better then Vanney with this roster.

And there is no way Gilberto would have been let go for Laba. No team is going to let go a recently signed DP before the season started. It was not going to happen.

[Ajax TFC]

This part of the discussion started with someone saying that we had to take apart Nelsens roster - your post proves that that wasn't the case. And did Payne screw up the draft? Maybe, maybe not, but nelsen was playing in the BPL at that point. Not on him.
and as for Laba, at the time, loads of us, including me, said "let Gilberto go" and we're told it couldn't be done. Mistake then and always.

Nelsen had strengths and weaknesses, but if we keep painting the previous regime as a disaster and ignore what they did well, we won't see the current regime properly either. Rinse and repeat.
The OP stated that the roster they inherited was a "shitshow". I guess it all depends on your definition of a "shitshow". The roster that we finished last season with was one where:
1) Both the starting DP strikers had to be replaced
2) there were only two CBs
3) Our starting wingers were Dom Oduro and Daniel Lovitz
4) no DM

Not everything is Nelsen/Payne's fault, and the roster didn't have to be completely overhauled, but there was certainly a fair amount of work that still needed to be done to the roster, and I think Bez/Vanney have done a decent job of that so far. Lets also not forget that the starting RB has been injured the entire season so far.

Also don't get me wrong, I don't blame Nelsen for that draft fuck up. That was on Payne. As was the decision to hire a player who was still playing at the time to be the coach.

[ag futbol]

I think we can agree there were some pieces to work with and they've ever so slightly improved on that outside of their big win which is Seba.

I am not overly sold on their ability to identify talent and continue to improve. The roster is odd, they've picked up the occasional dud, and there are glaring obvious deficiencies (RB, wingers, overall lack of team speed). We'll see how the rest of the year goes, but they should be comfortable with this group and really only have themselves to blame if the roster isn't workable (although far from perfect).

[Areathrasher]

An interesting read and quasi related to the topics discussed in here...

http://www.goal.com/en-us/news/1110/major-league-soccer/2015/08/21/14634542/mls-coaches-enjoying-an-uncommonly-cushy-existence-in-2015?ICID=HP_HN_1

[ensco]

An interesting read and quasi related to the topics discussed in here...

http://www.goal.com/en-us/news/1110/major-league-soccer/2015/08/21/14634542/mls-coaches-enjoying-an-uncommonly-cushy-existence-in-2015?ICID=HP_HN_1

I don't know who they think they are kidding. The fix is in with respect to both coaches and refs in MLS.

There is an obvious agreement to keep costs low (absurdly low?) in both those line items.

[OgtheDim]

I like Ives but that firing of Rongen was down to an owner wanting to win now when Rongen had a long term plan.

Oh, and what Big Head said


https://twitter.com/TaylorTwellman/status/634825730979926016

[Detroit_TFC]

I like Ives but that firing of Rongen was down to an owner wanting to win now when Rongen had a long term plan.

Oh, and what Big Head said


https://twitter.com/TaylorTwellman/status/634825730979926016

and also a rumor of player revolt

[ag futbol]

I don't know who they think they are kidding. The fix is in with respect to both coaches and refs in MLS.

There is an obvious agreement to keep costs low (absurdly low?) in both those line items.
What I wouldn't give to be a fly on the wall in some of these meetings. Let's hope someone leaves one of these days and spills the beans on their frugality.

Really though, lol at Paulson trying to justify this one. Like it's completely normal to see this in sports or as if MLS is from another planet.

[Hamilton_Red]

This is the thinking that drives me crazy. If you put Mourinho in charge of this team... or Ferguson...or Wenger... we would be walking this league. The manager is more important in soccer than the players. With no salary cap in this area - it makes no sense that we try to make do with rookie managers or duffers who couldn't make it elsewhere. Mourihno as much as I can't stand him - knows how to organize a defence and win games 1-0... he is brilliant at it. Bradley is still a good player but the manager is letting him do what he wants... try to be a box to box midfielder.. which ends up being an attacking midfielder. He has given up being a defensive midfielder. A big ego manager will give Bradley a defined role and he will be effective. He will also get in Altidore's head and get results. There isn't much wrong with our players IMO. Even Kantari - it can take a Cb back a whole season to settle into a partnership and a system. Can't judge after 3 games.


Okay so he's not the greatest manager on the planet...You could give Mourinho this team and we might have 2-3 more points....Point is Bradley and Altidore are damaged goods and no better than average MLS players now and their our DPs, so besides the ANT(best player in the league at present) we've got a VERY average team with THE WORST goalies in the league....If we make the playoffs I'd be very surprised and then the team be be BLOWN UP as usual...

[Ossington Mental Youth]

Fire vanney, we're terrible, we cant even beat newer teams

[shwade]

Fire vanney, we're terrible, we cant even beat newer teams

LOL beating a 10 and then 9 man expansion side. ..good win but not exactly gloat-worthy.

[Oldtimer]

LOL beating a 10 and then 9 man expansion side. ..good win but not exactly gloat-worthy. They were down 2 men due to pressure from TFC.

I hate it: when we lose, it's always said to be Vanney's fault but when we win, it is supposedly only because the other team is crap.

Vanney made good decisions v. Orlando.

[portu]

They were down 2 men due to pressure from TFC.

I hate it: when we lose, it's always said to be Vanney's fault but when we win, it is supposedly only because the other team is crap.

Vanney made good decisions v. Orlando.
Of course, but even if we'd won without the man advantages it's still one game in the macro

[Ultra & Proud]

They were down 2 men due to pressure from TFC.

I hate it: when we lose, it's always said to be Vanney's fault but when we win, it is supposedly only because the other team is crap.

Vanney made good decisions v. Orlando.
He did for sure. Maybe would have liked to see Gomez over Findley but that's nitpicking. He made the right calls and the game plan was aces. Hats off to him.

[ronzilla]

Vanney had nothing to do with the win. It was the 2 red cards and an awful Orlando side that gave us the goal fest.

[Ultra & Proud]

Vanney had nothing to do with the win. It was the 2 red cards and an awful Orlando side that gave us the goal fest.
He did two things of note; one, Konopka in goal. Two, our set up and shape added more width than usual. He deserves credit for that.

[kwhisperer]

He did two things of note; one, Konopka in goal. Two, our set up and shape added more width than usual. He deserves credit for that.

I'm really bothered we didn't see Herc. He was the only life for the team when he came on the other day and he needs to get minutes with team.

[trane]

He did two things of note; one, Konopka in goal. Two, our set up and shape added more width than usual. He deserves credit for that.

The problem is that we almost have to win big to win. We have only won a couple of games when we grinded it out. When the other team allows we are an offensive power house.

[Areathrasher]

Findley won the penalty and had the assist on the fifth btw

[MightyDM]

He did two things of note; one, Konopka in goal. Two, our set up and shape added more width than usual. He deserves credit for that.

and he sat Altidore. Kudos. More balls than I thought he has. And he subbed at halftime. He never does that.

i never thought Vanney should have been hired, but I have to give him credit for sitting a DP. Possibly he has finally taken control of the team from the front office, and the players (Bradley).

[Yohan]

and he sat Altidore. Kudos. More balls than I thought he has. And he subbed at halftime. He never does that.

i never thought Vanney should have been hired, but I have to give him credit for sitting a DP. Possibly he has finally taken control of the team from the front office, and the players (Bradley).

And he is willing to change formation if something doesn't work. Some managers are too stubborn to learn and change

[jabbronies]

I'm really bothered we didn't see Herc. He was the only life for the team when he came on the other day and he needs to get minutes with team.


We won 5-0. Why were you bothered that he didn't come on? He wasn't needed. We scored 5 goals.

[jabbronies]

Vanney had nothing to do with the win. It was the 2 red cards and an awful Orlando side that gave us the goal fest.


This was a tough game to judge Vanney for sure. You can't say either way if he had a hand in the win or, as you mentioned, just a shitty Orlando side.

However - the lineup he started with was a good one and IMO probably the strongest we have.

[kwhisperer]

We won 5-0. Why were you bothered that he didn't come on? He wasn't needed. We scored 5 goals.

He needs game time. He will be much more important than Findley down the stretch.

[Oldtimer]

The problem is that we almost have to win big to win. We have only won a couple of games when we grinded it out. When the other team allows we are an offensive power house.

I agree, I really hate it when we win 5-0. I'd much rather grind out a 2-1 win. :rolleyes5:

[Oldtimer]

I hate it: when we lose, it's always said to be Vanney's fault but when we win, it is supposedly only because the other team is crap.



Vanney had nothing to do with the win. It was the 2 red cards and an awful Orlando side that gave us the goal fest.

I didn't think you'd prove my point so quickly!

[shwade]

Way to miss the point.
Too bad we won't be facing Orlando in the playoffs and will be playing a team that's caused us grievances (pretty much all the teams in our vicinity both above and below us). We couldn't put away Chicago, NYCFC, NE but start planning the parade because we beat a 9 man expansion side!

[kwhisperer]

Way to miss the point.
Too bad we won't be facing Orlando in the playoffs and will be playing a team that's caused us grievances (pretty much all the teams in our vicinity both above and below us). We couldn't put away Chicago, NYCFC, NE but start planning the parade because we beat a 9 man expansion side!

I'm not getting that sense from the comments - everyone knows beating Orlando, fun as it was, is expected and that we have a LOT to prove against better teams.

[ronzilla]

Spot on.

If people want to use this game as a measuring stick, they need to look at the 1st half where the Reds struggled to create chances or score against one of the worst teams in the MLS.


Way to miss the point.
Too bad we won't be facing Orlando in the playoffs and will be playing a team that's caused us grievances (pretty much all the teams in our vicinity both above and below us). We couldn't put away Chicago, NYCFC, NE but start planning the parade because we beat a 9 man expansion side!

[Ivy]

this forum is borderline depressing recently.

[charlieocc]

this forum is borderline depressing recently.

Agreed, can we not take at least a day or so to bask in one of the biggest wins in franchise history before the doomsday predictions return?

[Ossington Mental Youth]

lololol

[Shakes McQueen]

Agreed, can we not take at least a day or so to bask in one of the biggest wins in franchise history before the doomsday predictions return?

As much as ronzilla and company seem like they must be a blast at parties, I think calling this one of the biggest wins in franchise history is equally hilarious (unless you were referring to the scoreline specifically).

[Fort York Redcoat]

Fire vanney, we're terrible, we cant even beat newer teams


LOL beating a 10 and then 9 man expansion side. ..good win but not exactly gloat-worthy.

That's what you'd call gloating? It's quite acceptable to celebrate a win on a supporters site. Regardless how we won.

That said, there wasn't much in the first quote on how we won either.

[pdubs]

If we would have beat them 1-0 there would be a ton of complaining and honestly rightly so. We scored 5 and did exactly what we needed to do given the circumstances. Don't think many of us are taking more from the game then is needed. We broke down an undermanned team that was bunkering and we did it with class on several of the goals. I believe a couple of years ago (under Nelson for sure) we lost against a 10 man Chivas side. At the end of the day we took three points against a conference rival, got Jozy some confidence and had a clean sheet. Perfect day. That is what I am taking away from the game.

Edit- My get 4 more goals comment is LOL. I saw Duane on twitter posting about potential backlash from not crushing this team because of the fan base. Wanted to post something postive and she worked out!

[OgtheDim]

Spot on.

If people want to use this game as a measuring stick, they need to look at the 1st half where the Reds struggled to create chances or score against one of the worst teams in the MLS.

7 shots in the first 30 minutes. Took the foot off the gas with the red card (as a lot of teams do). Vanney talks to them at half time about maintaining tempo and moving the ball quicker. They do so in the second half and win.

[Richard]

If we would have beat them 1-0 there would be a ton of complaining and honestly rightly so. We scored 5 and did exactly what we needed to do given the circumstances. Don't think many of us are taking more from the game then is needed. We broke down an undermanned team that was bunkering and we did it with class on several of the goals. I believe a couple of years ago (under Nelson for sure) we lost against a 10 man Chivas side. At the end of the day we took three points against a conference rival, got Jozy some confidence and had a clean sheet. Perfect day. That is what I am taking away from the game.

Edit- My get 4 more goals comment is LOL. I saw Duane on twitter posting about potential backlash from not crushing this team because of the fan base. Wanted to post something postive and she worked out!

Spot on. Now its time to take the confidence into the next game which should be a good one.

[ag futbol]

Look, it's a game we should win, we won it - with some style, as we have previously against the lesser teams. Nice to get back on track - Vanney gets credit for it (as he should).

Question of whether we can compete with the better teams in this league remains unanswered. That's just matter-of-fact... Nobody is going to consider Orlando a measuring stick.

[shwade]

My post does come off more grinchy than I thought..I apologize. It was a good win, one we deserved. The real test is if they can build on it the next couple of games but this win is good for confidence. Hopefully Altidore is back to good.

[trane]

I agree, I really hate it when we win 5-0. I'd much rather grind out a 2-1 win. :rolleyes5:


Oldtimer, we only win when our offense is clicking on all cylinders, this will not have every days, so we have dropped a lot the points over the season, because we do not now how to defend and battle through defences, and win 1-0 or 2-1. I use Mou logic, I would rather win 5 games 1-0, then win one out of five 5-0.

[Areathrasher]

From the Guardian


Rumours of Greg Vanney’s impending firing this season has surfaced perhaps even more frequently than speculation of Javier Hernandez’s mooted move to MLS, and indeed questions over the 41-year-old’s inexperience and suitability for the job persist. But against Orlando City the former USA defender finally demonstrated his credentials, making the tactical shift that set his side on course for a comprehensive victory. After all this time, and all those dismal appointments, TFC might actually have a manager capable of affecting performances in the way managers at other functioning teams are meant to.

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2015/aug/23/la-galaxy-new-york-city-fc-montreal

Interesting perspective tbf

[trane]

^ He has effected performances, we are better offensively, and so in games such as last Saturday's when the over team is down one and then two men, our offense shines. What he has not been able to affect is against teams that defend well, and our own team defense.

[Oldtimer]

^ He has effected performances, we are better offensively, and so in games such as last Saturday's when the over team is down one and then two men, our offense shines. What he has not been able to affect is against teams that defend well, and our own team defense.

The question is, though, not "is Vanney good enough to coach in Serie A or in the EPL?" Clearly he's not. What's relevant is "does he make more mistakes than the average MLS coach?" and "are his tactics as good as the average MLS coach?" I would say that at this point he is actually slightly above-average. We always look at the Kreises and the Arenas of the league, but there are a dozen low-profile coaches that do a job that is "good enough" to last in MLS. Not one coach has been fired yet this year in the whole league! Vanney has more tactical knowledge than your average MLS coach due to his stay in France.

[Phil]

Oldtimer, we only win when our offense is clicking on all cylinders, this will not have every days, so we have dropped a lot the points over the season, because we do not now how to defend and battle through defences, and win 1-0 or 2-1. I use Mou logic, I would rather win 5 games 1-0, then win one out of five 5-0.

If only we could have stopped at 2-0 then saved 3 goals for Montreal.

[barticusz]

^ He has effected performances, we are better offensively, and so in games such as last Saturday's when the over team is down one and then two men, our offense shines. What he has not been able to affect is against teams that defend well, and our own team defense.

Defense has been an issue for sure. But to fire a guy AGAIN because everything isn't perfect would be completely insane. We are continuously changing our backline and haven't' had stability there all season. But if we take these growing pains now and learn from them in the next few years we could become a team that is continously good. We wont' get there by constantly turning over our roster/management though.

[MightyDM]

The question is, though, not "is Vanney good enough to coach in Serie A or in the EPL?" Clearly he's not. What's relevant is "does he make more mistakes than the average MLS coach?" and "are his tactics as good as the average MLS coach?" I would say that at this point he is actually slightly above-average. We always look at the Kreises and the Arenas of the league, but there are a dozen low-profile coaches that do a job that is "good enough" to last in MLS. Not one coach has been fired yet this year in the whole league! Vanney has more tactical knowledge than your average MLS coach due to his stay in France.

The issue with Vanney is whether he can translate his ideas to on the field performance of athletes. Jury is well out on that, as the high rate of conceded first goals in first halves of games shows. Its really quite shocking that a former defender has such a poor record of coaching defence. Here's hoping he is smart enough to figure that out (is he too aggressive tactically? too much turnover? Not enough reps in practice and too much talking? Poor goalkeeping at critical moments? etc).

The team has had some great moments this year and is exciting to watch, but he has not yet established he can coach defence, in fact the opposite.

[Oldtimer]

The issue with Vanney is whether he can translate his ideas to on the field performance of athletes. Jury is well out on that, as the high rate of conceded first goals in first halves of games shows. Its really quite shocking that a former defender has such a poor record of coaching defence. Here's hoping he is smart enough to figure that out (is he too aggressive tactically? too much turnover? Not enough reps in practice and too much talking? Poor goalkeeping at critical moments? etc).

The team has had some great moments this year and is exciting to watch, but he has not yet established he can coach defence, in fact the opposite.

How much of that is on Vanney, though? Our defenders are hardly world class. Again and again it's "lack of concentration" that's given as the cause for goals. Look, if we're stuck with defenders with attention deficit, the best coaches couldn't make them stop leaking goals.

Now Vanney has changed the midfield formation to shore up our defenders... let's hope his strategy works.

[MightyDM]

How much of that is on Vanney, though? Our defenders are hardly world class. Again and again it's "lack of concentration" that's given as the cause for goals. Look, if we're stuck with defenders with attention deficit, the best coaches couldn't make them stop leaking goals.

Now Vanney has changed the midfield formation to shore up our defenders... let's hope his strategy works.

I hope so too, but the original formation was on him. We were a lot more solid defensively last year pre Vanney, with arguably worse players, just a more conservative approach. we saw this earlier when we reverted to a flat 4-4-2 to win a couple of games before going to the diamond.

I am not in the locker room but it strikes me that he is either naïve or communicates by talking not by actions, endless repetitions on the practice ground.

Not advocating his dismissal, but he needs to sort this out or we are done early this year.

[PopePouri]

I hope so too, but the original formation was on him. We were a lot more solid defensively last year pre Vanney, with arguably worse players, just a more conservative approach.

But that's the thing. Being conservative doesn't mean you're going to win more games. You're just going to concede less. If last year has taught us anything, it's that playing conservatively in a flat 4-4-2 in MLS doesn't provide a sustainable method to get results.

If you look at all the top teams like SKC, NYRB, Seattle, LA, RSL etc, neither play a highly conservative counter-attacking 4-4-2.


we saw this earlier when we reverted to a flat 4-4-2 to win a couple of games before going to the diamond.

And we saw the problems with it when they played Houston at home the next game. Little possession and being outnumbered in midfield. To get Altidore and Giovinco on the pitch and get them on the ball consistently, the only suitable formation that he could play was the diamond. It's that or play 3 at the back (something we've done).

I think Vanney knows his best formation is some sort of 4-5-1 so that he can get fullbacks high and still have sufficient defensive cover, but then he would have to drop either Altidore or Seba.

[Oldtimer]

I hope so too, but the original formation was on him. We were a lot more solid defensively last year pre Vanney, with arguably worse players, just a more conservative approach. we saw this earlier when we reverted to a flat 4-4-2 to win a couple of games before going to the diamond.

I am not in the locker room but it strikes me that he is either naïve or communicates by talking not by actions, endless repetitions on the practice ground.

Not advocating his dismissal, but he needs to sort this out or we are done early this year.

Now that's revisionist to the extreme! Nelsen's win rate was 26%, I'm not sure how you can call that "solid defensively." Maybe you were going by goals against? 47 will probably be somewhat better than this year, we'll probably be in the low 50's, but we were hardly a defensive powerhouse under Nelsen and we lost way more games.

[molenshtain]

I think Vanney knows his best formation is some sort of 4-5-1 so that he can get fullbacks high and still have sufficient defensive cover, but then he would have to drop either Altidore or Seba.

Or he could just play Seba on thee left side of the 4-5-1/4-3-3/4-2-3-1 whatever. That's not a foreign position to him.

[PopePouri]

Or he could just play Seba on thee left side of the 4-5-1/4-3-3/4-2-3-1 whatever. That's not a foreign position to him.

Seba doesn't defend well or defend in general, he's always high. For the first couple of games of the season, Altidore was forced out to the left of a 4-3-3, asked to defend the fullback and we weren't getting the best out of him.

[ag futbol]

But that's the thing. Being conservative doesn't mean you're going to win more games. You're just going to concede less.

Agreed. The statistical bias of playing conservatively means it looks like you're in a lot more games than you are. I could only roll my eyes at Nelson trotting out his usual smorgasbord of excuses week after week playing games of nothing football but always ready to offer we were "unlucky" not to score on some odd ball half chance.

Let's not forget we actually have the budget of a big club for MLS and I'd venture playing forward thinking makes more sense in this league right now (and in the box office).

I'm not all the way there on Vanney being the guy, but I have no desire to go back to the days of uninspiring garbage in the name of grinding out results (which never worked to begin with).

[MightyDM]

But that's the thing. Being conservative doesn't mean you're going to win more games. You're just going to concede less. If last year has taught us anything, it's that playing conservatively in a flat 4-4-2 in MLS doesn't provide a sustainable method to get results.

If you look at all the top teams like SKC, NYRB, Seattle, LA, RSL etc, neither play a highly conservative counter-attacking 4-4-2.



And we saw the problems with it when they played Houston at home the next game. Little possession and being outnumbered in midfield. To get Altidore and Giovinco on the pitch and get them on the ball consistently, the only suitable formation that he could play was the diamond. It's that or play 3 at the back (something we've done).

I think Vanney knows his best formation is some sort of 4-5-1 so that he can get fullbacks high and still have sufficient defensive cover, but then he would have to drop either Altidore or Seba.

I am not saying we should play a flat 4-4-2. I am saying that Vanney needs to sort out something that makes us far less porous. He happened to do it by going to a 4-4-2 and it worked for two games, the 4-2-3-1 worked to a degree versus Orlando, but they were at ten men most of the game. Three at the back didn't seem to work at all.

[MightyDM]

Now that's revisionist to the extreme! Nelsen's win rate was 26%, I'm not sure how you can call that "solid defensively." Maybe you were going by goals against? 47 will probably be somewhat better than this year, we'll probably be in the low 50's, but we were hardly a defensive powerhouse under Nelsen and we lost way more games.


Nelsens teams am were far stingier than Vanneys. That isn't revisionist history at all. And I am not trying to reignite the coaching debate, merely to point out that with worse players a different coach could produce far tighter defence. So something in what Vanney is doing needs to be changed and can be changed.

we saw this last year when Vanney took over and the team dropped out of playoff contention, shipping a lot of bad goals, and a lot of early goals. It has come back again in the last eight games or so, leading to the changes versus Orlando. They worked, but....

[notthesun]

Nelsens teams am were far stingier than Vanneys. That isn't revisionist history at all. And I am not trying to reignite the coaching debate, merely to point out that with worse players a different coach could produce far tighter defence. So something in what Vanney is doing needs to be changed and can be changed.

we saw this last year when Vanney took over and the team dropped out of playoff contention, shipping a lot of bad goals, and a lot of early goals. It has come back again in the last eight games or so, leading to the changes versus Orlando. They worked, but....

I think the point being made re: Nelsen is that his teams were stingier in defense because he played bunkering, zero-ambition counter-attacking football. We gave away fewer goals or were on the wrong end of fewer routs under him because we stuck 11 men behind the ball and a good day meant hitting 40% possession. So sure, he got more defensively out of a worse group of players, but anyone would have playing that style, and it was never going to improve in terms of results.

That being said, the recent defensive issues are obviously concerning and Vanney deserves criticism over them, no question. We've conceded far more than you should expect, even for a team trying to push the game offensively as much as we do. But it's a red herring to say Nelsen crafted a solid defense in his time here... he just tried to win every game by parking the bus and crossing his fingers for a couple half chances for Defoe. It was a by-product of his poor tactics.

[Oldtimer]

Nelsens teams am were far stingier than Vanneys.

You are going by impressions, the stats don't back you up. Nelsen's team was slightly better, the records show it.

Preki's team was far stingier... typically would only give up a goal a game. Unfortunately Preki would usually lose 1-0. Is that really better?





we saw this last year when Vanney took over and the team dropped out of playoff contention, shipping a lot of bad goals, and a lot of early goals. It has come back again in the last eight games or so, leading to the changes versus Orlando. They worked, but....

Jose Mourinho himself couldn't take over a team near the end of a season and implement a completely different style of play and have them win.

You forget that Nelsen's method was classic English-style counter-attacking football. Vanney is playing a more continental style brand of football, with short-passing, playing the ball on the deck, etc. being the rule of play. Nelsen's style depended on English-style players, Vanney is looking for Italians and French players (or an Italian-trained American in Michael Bradley's case).

Vanney's style is certainly the future of MLS 3.0, and looks a lot like classic RSL in some aspects. What we are needing is a couple of defensive anchors to make the whole system work. In the mean-time, Vanney has to modify things to make sure that our defense doesn't leak goals.



we saw this last year when Vanney took over and the team dropped out of playoff contention, shipping a lot of bad goals, and a lot of early goals. It has come back again in the last eight games or so, leading to the changes versus Orlando. They worked, but....

The issues this year were different than last year's, even if excessive goals-against is in common.

[Oldtimer]

it's a red herring to say Nelsen crafted a solid defense in his time here... he just tried to win every game by parking the bus and crossing his fingers for a couple half chances for Defoe. It was a by-product of his poor tactics.

That's what I remember, too.

[MightyDM]

I agree that Nelsens' record is a red herring, including the fact that we were in the play offs when he was fired, but for a different reason that you two - put Vanney's defensive record against any other coach in the league who has coached since he started about one year ago, and his teams will be the worst. And that is nothing to do with Nelsen. You argue that Nelsen bunkered, and relied excessively on Defoe having a moment of brilliance. I think that's a huge oversimplification. You could equally say Vanney has his teams kick the ball around and rely excessively on Giovinco's brilliance, as some posters do.

My only point is that the defensive issues are serious and have more to do with the coach than the players, who by and large are better than last years but have a worse defensive record, particularly at the beginning of games. I have no doubt that Vanney is intellectually capable of seeing this and figuring out solutions, but where I doubt is his ability to have the players deliver. I sure hope so - I love watching the team this year - but am seriously worried based on what we have seen thus far.

[Oldtimer]

Oldtimer, we only win when our offense is clicking on all cylinders, this will not have every days, so we have dropped a lot the points over the season, because we do not now how to defend and battle through defences, and win 1-0 or 2-1. I use Mou logic, I would rather win 5 games 1-0, then win one out of five 5-0.

Well we did win 2-1 against Montreal now, I hope that pleases you, but I think we'd both agree we have a suspect defense still.

[MightyDM]

Now that's revisionist to the extreme! Nelsen's win rate was 26%, I'm not sure how you can call that "solid defensively." Maybe you were going by goals against? 47 will probably be somewhat better than this year, we'll probably be in the low 50's, but we were hardly a defensive powerhouse under Nelsen and we lost way more games.

Just looking at this again. We did not "lose way more games" under Nelsen. That's not factual. And how many times did his teams give up the go ahead goal in the first half? For Vanney, it's almost every game. Let's be fair here.

[Oldtimer]

Just looking at this again. We did not "lose way more games" under Nelsen. That's not factual. And how many times did his teams give up the go ahead goal in the first half? For Vanney, it's almost every game. Let's be fair here.

Give your stats if your going to say somethings not factual.

[Ajax TFC]

Coach
Nation
From
To
Record1 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toronto_FC#endnote_a)













G
W
L
T
Win %


Ryan Nelsen (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ryan_Nelsen)
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3e/Flag_of_New_Zealand.svg/23px-Flag_of_New_Zealand.svg.png New Zealand (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Zealand)
January 7, 2013
August 31, 2014
64
17
29
18
26.56


Greg Vanney (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greg_Vanney)
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/a/a4/Flag_of_the_United_States.svg/23px-Flag_of_the_United_States.svg.png United States (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States)
August 31, 2014
present
34
13
16
5
38.24


Nelsen got more draws. Vanney has far more wins

[Blixa]

Hard to compare. Nelsen didn't have Giovinco.

[Ajax TFC]

Nelsen had his own choice of DPs. It's his own fault that they weren't effective enough

[Richard]

I don't know how much truth there is to Nelsen not caring about reviewing tape, or statistical metrics, but that's enough for me to conclude he was out of his depth.

Nelsen's team was basically a slight upgrade to what we had when Mariner was here, the team mindset was defensive which in itself isn't a problem, but the offense was porous and to top it off just look at how many late game goals that team gave up.

That team was built like a house of cards, at least this team more recently has shown that they don't need Giovinco every game.

[ag futbol]

Hard to compare. Nelsen didn't have Giovinco.
Well he also got his "dream dp" which happened to be a guy who relied on service to a fault and really wasn't into playing over here. You make your own luck, or so they say.

[molenshtain]

Coach
Nation
From
To
Record1 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toronto_FC#endnote_a)


G
W
L
T
Win %













Ryan Nelsen (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ryan_Nelsen)
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3e/Flag_of_New_Zealand.svg/23px-Flag_of_New_Zealand.svg.png New Zealand (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Zealand)
January 7, 2013
August 31, 2014
64
17
29
18
26.56


Greg Vanney (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greg_Vanney)
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/a/a4/Flag_of_the_United_States.svg/23px-Flag_of_the_United_States.svg.png United States (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States)
August 31, 2014
present
34
13
16
5
38.24


Nelsen got more draws. Vanney has far more wins


and that's including Vanney's, what was it, 2-8 start at the end of last season? All with Nelsen's depleted squad.

[ensco]

We have crushed Philly, Orlando and Montreal, and been pretty much the worst team in the league against the rest of the league.

We are where we are in the standings solely because of Seba, and I would still make the change, at season's end, unless we really show in the playoffs that we can handle pressure systems. Jesse Marsch's comments are still ringing in my ears. Most better clubs have been able to totally shut us down tactically.

[MightyDM]

Coach
Nation
From
To
Record1 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toronto_FC#endnote_a)













G
W
L
T
Win %


Ryan Nelsen (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ryan_Nelsen)
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3e/Flag_of_New_Zealand.svg/23px-Flag_of_New_Zealand.svg.png New Zealand (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Zealand)
January 7, 2013
August 31, 2014
64
17
29
18
26.56


Greg Vanney (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greg_Vanney)
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/a/a4/Flag_of_the_United_States.svg/23px-Flag_of_the_United_States.svg.png United States (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States)
August 31, 2014
present
34
13
16
5
38.24


Nelsen got more draws. Vanney has far more wins

thats right. And we didn't "lose way more" under Nelsen. Interesting to see Nelsens stats just for 2014 as 2013 wasn't as good a team talent wise.

[MightyDM]

I don't know how much truth there is to Nelsen not caring about reviewing tape, or statistical metrics, but that's enough for me to conclude he was out of his depth.

Nelsen's team was basically a slight upgrade to what we had when Mariner was here, the team mindset was defensive which in itself isn't a problem, but the offense was porous and to top it off just look at how many late game goals that team gave up.

That team was built like a house of cards, at least this team more recently has shown that they don't need Giovinco every game.

i don't get this "out of his depth" argument at all. Nielsen played at a higher level than Vanney, Captain of at least two BPL sides and the NZ National team to an undefeated World Cup. He may or may not be an effective coach, but to suggest that he didn't understand soccer tactics at the highest level is absurd. Perhaps he was too stubborn about counter attacking football but in 2013 with a poor roster he made it competitive, and was doing well in 2014 until Defoe got hurt. He never solved the balance in the team though, and never quite figured out how to use Bradley. Vanney has a similar issue now of balance and how to use Jozy/ Gio/ Bradley, although I think he has done a better job than Nelsen of using Bradley's strengths.

[OgtheDim]

i don't get this "out of his depth" argument at all. Nielsen played at a higher level than Vanney, Captain of at least two BPL sides and the NZ National team to an undefeated World Cup. He may or may not be an effective coach, but to suggest that he didn't understand soccer tactics at the highest level is absurd. ...

Playing is not coaching.

[akoto]

thats right. And we didn't "lose way more" under Nelsen. Interesting to see Nelsens stats just for 2014 as 2013 wasn't as good a team talent wise.


Nelson GP 24 Record 9-9-6 August 30th 2014

Vanney GP 25 Record 11-10-4 August 30th 2015

Equals a 37.5% winning percentage for Nelson and 44% for Vanney. If you do it at 24 games each, Vanney is at around 42%

[portu]

Playing is not coaching.
It's absurd to believe you can succeed at the highest levels of the game without a decent understanding of tactics or at least how to implement them, in Nelsen's case even more so considering the level of tactical organization that undefeated World Cup in 2010 warranted

[jabbronies]

thats right. And we didn't "lose way more" under Nelsen. Interesting to see Nelson's stats just for 2014 as 2013 wasn't as good a team talent wise.


Just speaking tactically - I think Nelsen would've had a better record with the current team than what Vanney has right now. I think he would've been able to lock down the defensive woes quicker than what Vanney is doing.

I know the stats say otherwise, but keep in mind - Gio has single handedly won us a few of those games. Without Gio - The records would be more equal.

All in all - I have no favour for one over the other. Both are fine MLS level managers who could get us into the playoffs (Keep in mind Nelsen had us in the playoffs last year before Vanney stepped in - and Vanney has us in the playoffs as of right now).

I think people are mistaking Team Tactics for Player Fuck Ups. Not saying Vanney is a tactical genius, but I think we could be better if players didn't do stupid things on the pitch.

That 32 pass sequence was one of the first examples I've seen this season of players moving the ball at a somewhat decent pace and with purpose

When they don't hold on to the ball for longer than they need to or make stupid arial passes, they actually have a decent plan of attack. There have been other glimpses of that tactical movement going forward in place, but it usually ends with a player doing something stupid.

Again - I think the Vanney hate is misplaced and unwarranted this season.

[Yohan]

This is a good article by Doyle analyzing Jozy's play.

http://www.mlssoccer.com/rivalries/news/article/2015/08/29/armchair-analyst-jozy-altidore-toronto-fc-and-suffering-team

We've been blaming the midfield for being too slow and not giving defence enough cover, and the defence for screwing up. And to be sure, the midfield and the defence do deserve some level of blame.

But Giovinco and Altidore just don't do enough work defensively to pressure the opposition without the ball. Well, at least consistently. Essentially, TFC is defending 9 men instead of 11. The strikers has to do more defensively.

[OgtheDim]

It's absurd to believe you can succeed at the highest levels of the game without a decent understanding of tactics or at least how to implement them, in Nelsen's case even more so considering the level of tactical organization that undefeated World Cup in 2010 warranted

OK, let me rephrase that

Implementing something as a player is not the same as implementing something as a coach. And that's what accounts for the idea that Nelsen was out of his depth.

[Oldtimer]

Nelson GP 24 Record 9-9-6 August 30th 2014

Vanney GP 25 Record 11-10-4 August 30th 2015

Equals a 37.5% winning percentage for Nelson and 44% for Vanney. If you do it at 24 games each, Vanney is at around 42%



But let's not discuss facts. Subjective memory a couple of years later is much more accurate. ;)

[trane]

Just speaking tactically - I think Nelsen would've had a better record with the current team than what Vanney has right now. I think he would've been able to lock down the defensive woes quicker than what Vanney is doing.

I know the stats say otherwise, but keep in mind - Gio has single handedly won us a few of those games. Without Gio - The records would be more equal.

All in all - I have no favour for one over the other. Both are fine MLS level managers who could get us into the playoffs (Keep in mind Nelsen had us in the playoffs last year before Vanney stepped in - and Vanney has us in the playoffs as of right now).

I think people are mistaking Team Tactics for Player Fuck Ups. Not saying Vanney is a tactical genius, but I think we could be better if players didn't do stupid things on the pitch.

That 32 pass sequence was one of the first examples I've seen this season of players moving the ball at a somewhat decent pace and with purpose

When they don't hold on to the ball for longer than they need to or make stupid arial passes, they actually have a decent plan of attack. There have been other glimpses of that tactical movement going forward in place, but it usually ends with a player doing something stupid.

Again - I think the Vanney hate is misplaced and unwarranted this season.

I do not hate Vanney, there are elements of the game such as possession and team passing which we have improved greatly under Vanney. There is no doubt. But I cannot help but agree with your earlier analyses, that even with Nelsen, as poor as we were by the simple fact that we would park the bus, and rely on the counter, that with Gio, Altidore in addition to Bradley we would get more points. It would not be pretty.

The thing about mistakes is that it is on the player, but it is for the coach, to work on minimizing them, and to develop systems that minimize both mistakes and the effect of mistakes. Maybe with time he will get better with time. I am in Montreal for a hearing, and it is all over the news that their Manager got fired for lossing yesterday and only getting 11 points out of 11 games I think is what they said.

[molenshtain]

I do not hate Vanney, there are elements of the game such as possession and team passing which we have improved greatly under Vanney. There is no doubt. But I cannot help but agree with your earlier analyses, that even with Nelsen, as poor as we were by the simple fact that we would park the bus, and rely on the counter, that with Gio, Altidore in addition to Bradley we would get more points. It would not be pretty.

The thing about mistakes is that it is on the player, but it is for the coach, to work on minimizing them, and to develop systems that minimize both mistakes and the effect of mistakes. Maybe with time he will get better with time. I am in Montreal for a hearing, and it is all over the news that their Manager got fired for lossing yesterday and only getting 11 points out of 11 games I think is what they said.

There's no evidence that Nelsen would know how to get the best out of our three DP's the same way Vanney has. If anything, Nelsen was a major reason that Bradley had such a bad year last year.

[trane]

This is a good article by Doyle analyzing Jozy's play.

http://www.mlssoccer.com/rivalries/news/article/2015/08/29/armchair-analyst-jozy-altidore-toronto-fc-and-suffering-team

We've been blaming the midfield for being too slow and not giving defence enough cover, and the defence for screwing up. And to be sure, the midfield and the defence do deserve some level of blame.

But Giovinco and Altidore just don't do enough work defensively to pressure the opposition without the ball. Well, at least consistently. Essentially, TFC is defending 9 men instead of 11. The strikers has to do more defensively.

He is right about Altidore at times, he should play more like a classic CF and hold up play more, and be aggressive and physical against the cbs in particular. But the article says nothing about Giovinco, and Giovinco pressures everybody including the keeper, and he will come back deep to recover the ball.

But Altidore is hardly the cause of our defensive problems. We keep good and tight going forward for the most part, but somehow we fail to do it consistently enough when we defend.

[trane]

There's no evidence that Nelsen would know how to get the best out of our three DP's the same way Vanney has. If anything, Nelsen was a major reason that Bradley had such a bad year last year.

Dude, you cannot have evidence of Nelsen getting the best our of the DPs when he did not have those DPs, The point is that even if we simply parked the bus, let Bradley, Altidore and particularly Giovinco do their thing we would have more points. It is all speculation based on observation. I am not sure why you get so protective of Vanney, again who is doing some good things, no one is, at least I am not, that he is worst human being ever, just that if we were better defensively this team would have a real shot and doing great things this year. Now I am not sure. Hence if we could get a manger who could keep us clicking offensively but address our defensive problems I would be for hiring him, instead of Vanney. Is this offensive???

[molenshtain]

Dude, you cannot have evidence of Nelsen getting the best our of the DPs when he did not have those DPs, The point is that even if we simply parked the bus, let Bradley, Altidore and particularly Giovinco do their thing we would have more points. It is all speculation based on observation. I am not sure why you get so protective of Vanney, again who is doing some good things, no one is, at least I am not, that he is worst human being ever, just that if we were better defensively this team would have a real shot and doing great things this year. Now I am not sure. Hence if we could get a manger who could keep us clicking offensively but address our defensive problems I would be for hiring him, instead of Vanney. Is this offensive???


No, I'm just saying that there's clear evidence of Vanney trying to play to his players strengths and is getting the most out of his best players. Nelsen, on the other hand, was inept at this. So the notion that Nelsen would have had a better record than Vanney if he had Vanney's players is ridiculous. No one on this team would be in as good form or in a better position to succeed if Nelsen were currently the coach.

[PopePouri]

But let's not discuss facts. Subjective memory a couple of years later is much more accurate. ;)

That includes a 7 game roadtrip as well. His stats will only get better.

[Oldtimer]

No, I'm just saying that there's clear evidence of Vanney trying to play to his players strengths and is getting the most out of his best players. Nelsen, on the other hand, was inept at this. So the notion that Nelsen would have had a better record than Vanney if he had Vanney's players is ridiculous. No one on this team would be in as good form or in a better position to succeed if Nelsen were currently the coach.

Defoe was at least initially interested in helping TFC. I saw no evidence of Nelsen using him or Bradley effectively like Vanney is using his DPs. In fact the whole discussion on this board was how incompetent Nelsen was due to "no experience." The only question was whether to give him more time, fire him immediately, or fire him at the end of the season. Now I'm to believe he was a defensive genius and he would have a great record if only he had Giovinco. Well, it's just as likely that Giovinco would have gotten fed up playing under him just like Defoe did.

[jabbronies]

I do not hate Vanney, there are elements of the game such as possession and team passing which we have improved greatly under Vanney. There is no doubt. But I cannot help but agree with your earlier analyses, that even with Nelsen, as poor as we were by the simple fact that we would park the bus, and rely on the counter, that with Gio, Altidore in addition to Bradley we would get more points. It would not be pretty.

The thing about mistakes is that it is on the player, but it is for the coach, to work on minimizing them, and to develop systems that minimize both mistakes and the effect of mistakes. Maybe with time he will get better with time. I am in Montreal for a hearing, and it is all over the news that their Manager got fired for losing yesterday and only getting 11 points out of 11 games I think is what they said.


It's tough to say how we would get those points and how we would be playing. Vanney is definitely an "Attack to Defend" style manager - the more you attack, you less you defend. He hasn't mastered that system yet, but he is getting players that can do that job - hence why we would go and get Gomez at the break instead of a defender.

Nelsen was a defend first then break out and attack manager - Hence why we had Defoe - a guy who do it all himself as we saw last year.

I wonder if he would continue with that style with the players he would've had now.

Let's not forget his tenure saw Morrow, Jackson, Osorio, Bradley come into the first team - as well as most of our bench. So the building blocks for an attacking team were there.

Vanney "brought" in Altidore, Giovinco, Cheyrou, Perquise and Delgado - which are probably the only real starters who should continue as such - but he had the luxury of already having a decent bench and a few starters in place. More rounded team afforded him the advantage to TRY and execute an attack style game.

Anyways - it's all hypothetical at this point.

We are in a great position to make the playoffs and because of the squad we currently have - adding a couple more guys next year to finish off the club and actually be contenders going into the playoffs. Changing the manager before we see how next season unfolds is a very dumb idea. It wreaks of non-football related, corporate bullshit.

I'm not speaking to you specifically Trane, but there seems to be a general idea brewing that we should be playing a specific style of football - and not matter what the results we are getting - we should aim for that standard, even if it means disrupting the flow of the team.

[ManUtd4ever]

Lots of turmoil at NYCFC right now, with Kreis publicly questioning the commitment of his players, and Lampard responding in kind.

In the event that Kreis is let go in the off season, I think he would be a great hire for us.

[TFC Tifoso]

here's how I see it......after the debacle last year, TFC needed some "wow" to bring fans back or fear losing them once and for all......they did it with Giovinco and Altidore, and the front end fire power should be enough to at least get a playoff game in.....now in the offseason, the goal should be to complete the defense.......TFC was never going to be a complete team this year, especially considering how the front end needed to be revamped....

imo, Vanney is the most tactically competent coach we've ever had......to hear him talk, he understands the game and x's and o's more than the others we've had....

[Ultra & Proud]

Lots of turmoil at NYCFC right now, with Kreis publicly questioning the commitment of his players, and Lampard responding in kind.

In the event that Kreis is let go in the off season, I think he would be a great hire for us.

Oh, he's toast I think. He would be good but we'll have to see what Vanney has in the tank for the rest of the season. He can have all the X's and O's he wants but if we keep getting pressed and keep looking like crap against it then something will have to give. I think Vanney is pretty good actually but not great, not yet, maybe not ever. I can see him being a stepping stone type manager for the guy to take us to that next level. I am not sure Vanney is that guy. They may see Kreis as that guy and it'd be an easy sell to the masses if we stink up the first match of the playoffs and get skunked by a team's high press again.

[OgtheDim]

Silva is the real power in that locker room, not Lampard, and Silva pretty much indicated last week that upper management blew it by not getting him a #9 to play off of in a 4-4-2 diamond. I think Kreis stays while Pirlo says goodbye and they bring in a big name forward while Lampard limps through one more season.

[molenshtain]

Silva is the real power in that locker room, not Lampard, and Silva pretty much indicated last week that upper management blew it by not getting him a #9 to play off of in a 4-4-2 diamond. I think Kreis stays while Pirlo says goodbye and they bring in a big name forward while Lampard limps through one more season.

*Villa

[OgtheDim]

I've been doing that for 9 months. :frown5:

[Ajax TFC]

I've been doing that for 9 months. :frown5:
And you confuse the hell out of me every time you do it! :confused: Lol

[ag futbol]

Kreis is interesting. Sounds like the owners sand bagged him with their own choices... I'd still be cautious though.

On the flip side: does he go back to RSL? Cesar can't have too much rope.

[MightyDM]

here's how I see it......after the debacle last year, TFC needed some "wow" to bring fans back or fear losing them once and for all......they did it with Giovinco and Altidore, and the front end fire power should be enough to at least get a playoff game in.....now in the offseason, the goal should be to complete the defense.......TFC was never going to be a complete team this year, especially considering how the front end needed to be revamped....

imo, Vanney is the most tactically competent coach we've ever had......to hear him talk, he understands the game and x's and o's more than the others we've had....

I'd press you on that. Winter, Preki and Nelsen all knew their soccer as did Cummins. Vanney gives the best press conferences, for sure. But does that mean he can translate that talk into action? Sometimes. But only sometimes.

[MightyDM]

It's tough to say how we would get those points and how we would be playing. Vanney is definitely an "Attack to Defend" style manager - the more you attack, you less you defend. He hasn't mastered that system yet, but he is getting players that can do that job - hence why we would go and get Gomez at the break instead of a defender.

Nelsen was a defend first then break out and attack manager - Hence why we had Defoe - a guy who do it all himself as we saw last year.

I wonder if he would continue with that style with the players he would've had now.

Let's not forget his tenure saw Morrow, Jackson, Osorio, Bradley come into the first team - as well as most of our bench. So the building blocks for an attacking team were there.

Vanney "brought" in Altidore, Giovinco, Cheyrou, Perquise and Delgado - which are probably the only real starters who should continue as such - but he had the luxury of already having a decent bench and a few starters in place. More rounded team afforded him the advantage to TRY and execute an attack style game.

Anyways - it's all hypothetical at this point.

We are in a great position to make the playoffs and because of the squad we currently have - adding a couple more guys next year to finish off the club and actually be contenders going into the playoffs. Changing the manager before we see how next season unfolds is a very dumb idea. It wreaks of non-football related, corporate bullshit.

I'm not speaking to you specifically Trane, but there seems to be a general idea brewing that we should be playing a specific style of football - and not matter what the results we are getting - we should aim for that standard, even if it means disrupting the flow of the team.


Good post J

[MightyDM]

Playing is not coaching.

No, but his role as Captain was to marshall the teams he captained around the managers tactics - a role close to coaching, and at the highest possible level. He may or may not have been a good coach for TFC but to say he was out of his depth in MLS is simply silly.

[MightyDM]

There's no evidence that Nelsen would know how to get the best out of our three DP's the same way Vanney has. If anything, Nelsen was a major reason that Bradley had such a bad year last year.

Vanney has had to bench Altidore. Not quite getting the best out of him.....

[molenshtain]

No, but his role as Captain was to marshall the teams he captained around the managers tactics - a role close to coaching, and at the highest possible level. He may or may not have been a good coach for TFC but to say he was out of his depth in MLS is simply silly.

Lot's of great players, including captains, are shit managers. Being a good player doesn't in anyway make you a good coach.

[molenshtain]

Vanney has had to bench Altidore. Not quite getting the best out of him.....

Altidore has 10 goals in 19 games, with one of the better goals per minute in the league.

[MightyDM]

Defoe was at least initially interested in helping TFC. I saw no evidence of Nelsen using him or Bradley effectively like Vanney is using his DPs. In fact the whole discussion on this board was how incompetent Nelsen was due to "no experience." The only question was whether to give him more time, fire him immediately, or fire him at the end of the season. Now I'm to believe he was a defensive genius and he would have a great record if only he had Giovinco. Well, it's just as likely that Giovinco would have gotten fed up playing under him just like Defoe did.

Come on Oldtimer, Nelsen was a ,500 coach in 2014 and Vanney is the same in 2015. He was more defensive, Vanney is less. When Defoe was at his best, Nelsen didn't need to be offensive because the team was winning enough to be in the play offs. Similarly, when Givinco is at his best, Vanneys defence can hemmorage goals and still win sometimes - enough to be in the playoffs. Why we keep exGgerating Nelsens flaws and minimizing Vanneys is beyond me, your post being a good example.

pS Fascinating that Giovinco now has a similar injury to Defoe. Not the same, but similar. Let's hope Vanney can get more out of the team without Gio than he or Melsen were able to get out of The team without Defoe last season.

[MightyDM]

Lot's of great players, including captains, are shit managers. Being a good player doesn't in anyway make you a good coach.

I think he was a decent coach with some blind spots, including his stubbornness about some players. But I may be wrong. To say he was a weak coach is fair comment, although you may be wrong. To say he was out of his depth is nonsense, unless you want to say the same thing about Vanney as they more or less have the same record, and as Vanney took over Nelsens team and made it worse last year. And as for "Nelsen was found out" read what others have been saying about TFC. vanney has apparently been "found out" (whatever that means) according to coaches like Marsch. And they are actually boasting about it in the press.

dont get me wrong - Nelsen should not have been fired when he was, it cost us the playoffs, and Vanney should not have been hired. For the same reason, we can't fire Vanney now. But in my view we need to be honest about him. Speaks well, can't defend. Therefore can't beat the good teams, only the weak ones. with the players we have, I'd like to see him do better.

[molenshtain]

I think he was a decent coach with some blind spots, including his stubbornness about some players. But I may be wrong. To say he was a weak coach is fair comment, although you may be wrong. To say he was out of his depth is nonsense, unless you want to say the same thing about Vanney as they more or less have the same record, and as Vanney took over Nelsens team and made it worse last year. And as for "Nelsen was found out" read what others have been saying about TFC. vanney has apparently been "found out" (whatever that means) according to coaches like Marsch. And they are actually boasting about it in the press.

dont get me wrong - Nelsen should not have been fired when he was, it cost us the playoffs, and Vanney should not have been fired. For the same reason, we can't fire Vanney now. But in my view we need to be honest about him. Speaks well, can't defend. Therefore can't beat the good teams, only the weak ones. with the players we have, I'd like to see him do better.

This was the state of Nelsen's team by the end of his tenure:

a) We weren't really playing with any tactics to speak of
B) Not a single player was playing up to their actual talent
C) he had won just 3 of his last 13, completely blowing the 3-4 games in hand we'd had for most of the year
D) There were reports of Nelsen having lost the locker room because him and his coaching team couldn't actually coach for shit
E) had just lost 3-0 to NE at home in what was probably the singlee most uninspiring performance in our entire nine years

Nelsen was legitamtly found out because he refused to ever, ever alter his tactics/formation when it was blatantly obvious he should. Vanney on the other hand, has repeatedly showed a willingness to try new things and throw off the opposition.

So no. Nelsen had a good half season based on statistical anomalies and individual moments of brilliance. Then the summer hit and things dried up and we started playing about as well as Nelsen's "coaching" would allow us. This is an entirely different situation to the one Vanney is currently in.

[TFC Tifoso]

I'd press you on that. Winter, Preki and Nelsen all knew their soccer as did Cummins. Vanney gives the best press conferences, for sure. But does that mean he can translate that talk into action? Sometimes. But only sometimes.

I get your point, but here's what a typical sound bite from the others would sound like....

Winter: "We tried hard but they scored.....tis pity....we are not good enough."

Preki: *silence......camera slapping*

Nelson (after TFC was outposessed 30-70 with 1 shot on goal after 90 mins): "I thought we were the much better team.....just unlucky."

In a different time with some more organizational structure (ie. like we have now) Winter COULD'VE been successful here, but imo there were the wrong people above him.
Also imo, Preki had NO tactics, just put 9 men behind the ball and hope for the best when in possession......similar with Nelson, but to a lesser degree.
I liked Cummins but his sample size is just too short.

Of course, we have no idea what is said behind closed doors to the team, but I guess the public comments can give an indication to the private ones. For example, in public Vanney comes across to me as a good tactician, but not a good motivator, and you can see from "All For One" that is close to right from the locker room clips. I think that is where Vanney lacks most, in motivating......he should let the players fire themselves up. But to me he's the only coach we've had who I've heard identify problems with the team in game and how to adjust them. Execution is another story no doubt, but I feel that the responsibility there lies more on the players.

[Red I]

In a different time with some more organizational structure (ie. like we have now) Winter COULD'VE been successful here, but imo there were the wrong people above him.


If Winter took over the Youth Team, developed them to play his style, graduated the good ones to the first team, had a competent FO to bring players that could play that system... then yes, Winter may have worked, but it would have been like a 5-10 year plan... and still might not have worked well in this league, and pretty much ignores some good talent within the league simply because they are unused to the style.

It would have been a grand project, but, when Vancouver and Montreal consistently make the playoffs in front of Toronto...

[Oldtimer]

dont get me wrong - Nelsen should not have been fired when he was, it cost us the playoffs, and Vanney should not have been fired. For the same reason, we can't fire Vanney now. But in my view we need to be honest about him. Speaks well, can't defend. Therefore can't beat the good teams, only the weak ones. with the players we have, I'd like to see him do better.

So which of our defenders are world class? The quality players we have are offense players.

[ManUtd4ever]

I think our GA is inflated because of the number of games that Bendik has started, despite the issues with our backline. That is entirely on Vanney though.

[OgtheDim]

It would have been a grand project, but, when Vancouver and Montreal consistently make the playoffs in front of Toronto...

Montreal has made the playoffs once.

[Red I]

Montreal has made the playoffs once.

Not historically, i mean during that development time-frame of 5-10 years

[portu]

So which of our defenders are world class? The quality players we have are offense players.
Lol we don't even have world class attackers, world class is like Benzema, Higuain, Tevez, Suarez quality

Despite its flaws this is the best group of defenders ever at the club

[TFC Tifoso]

If Winter took over the Youth Team, developed them to play his style, graduated the good ones to the first team, had a competent FO to bring players that could play that system... then yes, Winter may have worked, but it would have been like a 5-10 year plan... and still might not have worked well in this league, and pretty much ignores some good talent within the league simply because they are unused to the style.

It would have been a grand project, but, when Vancouver and Montreal consistently make the playoffs in front of Toronto...

Winter's best idea was his vision he had for TFC to be a true "club" from the youth levels up.....and had he had the support then, we only would've started seeing the benefits of that now.
But that's all n the past now....point being that out of what we've had, imo only with him there was some potential, because of his long term plan......but he generally expected too much from MLS players at the time.....

[Oldtimer]

Lol we don't even have world class attackers, world class is like Benzema, Higuain, Tevez, Suarez quality



Lol. I asked a question. I never said that our attackers are world class on the Benzema etc. level.
We have "quality" players, those who play for national teams much better than Canada.

[ag futbol]

No, but his role as Captain was to marshall the teams he captained around the managers tactics - a role close to coaching, and at the highest possible level. He may or may not have been a good coach for TFC but to say he was out of his depth in MLS is simply silly.
The basement of the EPL isn't exactly the ceiling of the world game. Regardless, there is little evidence that a successful playing career translates into coaching any better than a meddling one does, except when it comes to gaining opportunities.

[MightyDM]

The basement of the EPL isn't exactly the ceiling of the world game. Regardless, there is little evidence that a successful playing career translates into coaching any better than a meddling one does, except when it comes to gaining opportunities.


Actually, there are lots of coaches who have translated hard work and smarts into overachieving on the field (or ice) and then into successful coaching, at all levels. Nelsen has those attributes. Its the naturals - like Gretzky, that often do not succeed.

[MightyDM]

So which of our defenders are world class? The quality players we have are offense players.

Late to the reply, but Perquis, Kantari, Williams, Zavaleta, Hagglund, Simonin are all better than Attakora/Cann, who were probably the most solid duo we had until last year. And at least the equal of Caldwell/ Doneil.

Justin Morrow is really good.

Cheyrou/Bradley is better than Amado Guevera and whoever played with him. Etc etc.

[MightyDM]

I get your point, but here's what a typical sound bite from the others would sound like....

Winter: "We tried hard but they scored.....tis pity....we are not good enough."

Preki: *silence......camera slapping*

Nelson (after TFC was outposessed 30-70 with 1 shot on goal after 90 mins): "I thought we were the much better team.....just unlucky."

In a different time with some more organizational structure (ie. like we have now) Winter COULD'VE been successful here, but imo there were the wrong people above him.
Also imo, Preki had NO tactics, just put 9 men behind the ball and hope for the best when in possession......similar with Nelson, but to a lesser degree.
I liked Cummins but his sample size is just too short.

Of course, we have no idea what is said behind closed doors to the team, but I guess the public comments can give an indication to the private ones. For example, in public Vanney comes across to me as a good tactician, but not a good motivator, and you can see from "All For One" that is close to right from the locker room clips. I think that is where Vanney lacks most, in motivating......he should let the players fire themselves up. But to me he's the only coach we've had who I've heard identify problems with the team in game and how to adjust them. Execution is another story no doubt, but I feel that the responsibility there lies more on the players.

I actually think we agree here. he analyzes and talks, but unclear if he can effectively translate into team action.

I was impressed with his starting line up last game. Took guts to bench Jozy. And the subs - took guts to bring on Findley (who has been playing well) rather thank Gomez.

And, FWIW, I liked Nelsen's press conferences.. He was just cryptic. He would say "we haven't got the balance right," where Vanney says six interesting paragraphs. And by we, he meant the coaching staff, including himself.

[ag futbol]

Actually, there are lots of coaches who have translated hard work and smarts into overachieving on the field (or ice) and then into successful coaching, at all levels. Nelsen has those attributes. Its the naturals - like Gretzky, that often do not succeed.
I get that guys who made it through their work ethic, like Nelsen, as opposed to oodles of natural talent often make decent coaching candidates - but I'll backstop and say the whole thing reeked to a weak hire predicated on an old boys club and there's no proof that a player of Nelsen's ilk makes a better MLS coach than a lesser MLS career type.

Unfortunately, Nelsen's work ethic also didn't seem to apply to taking time to strengthen his coaching credentials prior to taking the job - which frankly is weak when plenty of other guys do towards the end of their playing careers. We were constantly fed BS about this great natural leader, whose public speaking consisted of numbing and looking at his feet, who just "knew" how things worked.

The guy got the job because of his connection to Payne and otherwise was grossly under prepared - it was cronyism, pure and simple. and also fit with a league that enjoys having cheap hires in the Hc spot.

[TFC Tifoso]

I actually think we agree here. he analyzes and talks, but unclear if he can effectively translate into team action.

I was impressed with his starting line up last game. Took guts to bench Jozy. And the subs - took guts to bring on Findley (who has been playing well) rather thank Gomez.

And, FWIW, I liked Nelsen's press conferences.. He was just cryptic. He would say "we haven't got the balance right," where Vanney says six interesting paragraphs. And by we, he meant the coaching staff, including himself.

haha yeah sounds like it....Vanney is a good tactician, but the players need to be better motivated, especially coming out of the gate....they always seem to settle after about 15-20 mins or so.

yes, the biggest difference in the two to me is that Nelsen seemed to be just that, cryptic, whereas Vanney seems to be a straight shooter......now, if those characteristics carry over into how they speak to the players, its no wonder why Nelsen's act wore thin here amongst the players.....but when TFC was outplayed as badly as they were in some games, and Nelsen chalked it up to being "just unlucky" its either trying to take the pressure off the players or just being blatantly ignorant to what's happening around you....and to me Nelsen had a bit of arrogance about him......Vanney does not....

[Oldtimer]

haha yeah sounds like it....Vanney is a good tactician, but the players need to be better motivated, especially coming out of the gate....they always seem to settle after about 15-20 mins or so.

yes, the biggest difference in the two to me is that Nelsen seemed to be just that, cryptic, whereas Vanney seems to be a straight shooter......now, if those characteristics carry over into how they speak to the players, its no wonder why Nelsen's act wore thin here amongst the players.....but when TFC was outplayed as badly as they were in some games, and Nelsen chalked it up to being "just unlucky" its either trying to take the pressure off the players or just being blatantly ignorant to what's happening around you....and to me Nelsen had a bit of arrogance about him......Vanney does not....

I think you've summed up the differences in character, except that I'd add that Nelsen was a "player's friend' whereas Vanney is much more demanding. He's your boss not your friend, kind of in the old school vein. Not a complete jerk in the Preki model, but still someone you'd better perform for. You can see that quite easily in how he yells from the sideline, his facial expressions, how he reacts with the players.

[TFC Tifoso]

I think you've summed up the differences in character, except that I'd add that Nelsen was a "player's friend' whereas Vanney is much more demanding. He's your boss not your friend, kind of in the old school vein. Not a complete jerk in the Preki model, but still someone you'd better perform for. You can see that quite easily in how he yells from the sideline, his facial expressions, how he reacts with the players.

hmmm, I found Nelsen to be a bit of a hard ass tbh, and I think that is where he eventually lost the team.....its ok to be hard, but the results need to come with it.....but when you're hard, losing, and seemingly oblivious to what is going on, as Nelsen was at times, you're done....no one is going to follow your lead. Vanney does expect something out of the players, but I think the most important thing about him is that he's also becoming more aware of their limitations. But since it hasn't gone to shit this year (hopefully it stays like that lol), one could assume that regardless of how hard or not he is with the team, they do like playing for him. Now while you could easily put 2-4 wins on Giovinco, they also haven't mailed it in much if at all, like we've seen in the past. Quite the opposite actually....we've seen a share of comebacks this year. Sure there's more professional players, but team harmony also factors in to that imo, and that's set by the coach. While Vanney may not be the best motivator, or could be a bit hard, he seems to know how to keep the team "happy"......that's huge to me.

[trane]

It's tough to say how we would get those points and how we would be playing. Vanney is definitely an "Attack to Defend" style manager - the more you attack, you less you defend. He hasn't mastered that system yet, but he is getting players that can do that job - hence why we would go and get Gomez at the break instead of a defender.

Nelsen was a defend first then break out and attack manager - Hence why we had Defoe - a guy who do it all himself as we saw last year.

I wonder if he would continue with that style with the players he would've had now.

Let's not forget his tenure saw Morrow, Jackson, Osorio, Bradley come into the first team - as well as most of our bench. So the building blocks for an attacking team were there.

Vanney "brought" in Altidore, Giovinco, Cheyrou, Perquise and Delgado - which are probably the only real starters who should continue as such - but he had the luxury of already having a decent bench and a few starters in place. More rounded team afforded him the advantage to TRY and execute an attack style game.

Anyways - it's all hypothetical at this point.

We are in a great position to make the playoffs and because of the squad we currently have - adding a couple more guys next year to finish off the club and actually be contenders going into the playoffs. Changing the manager before we see how next season unfolds is a very dumb idea. It wreaks of non-football related, corporate bullshit.

I'm not speaking to you specifically Trane, but there seems to be a general idea brewing that we should be playing a specific style of football - and not matter what the results we are getting - we should aim for that standard, even if it means disrupting the flow of the team.

Clearly, as you surely have gathered I have a personal preference, for a certain style, stay organized, compact, defend first, attack on the counter, but I understand that different teams can be build differently, and the first thing is to built the team, to shape the tactics around the players that you have, to bring the best out of them, not to try to do something that you cannot do.

Having said that I am mixed about Vanney, as I have said, because he has been able to do great things with certain aspects of our game. I just think that with the talent we have, and I do believe we are a talented team, even past Giovinco, we should be stronger in more aspects of the game.

[Jack]

Ravi, we got a defender (Kantari) and a forward, which should have addressed two of our big needs. So I don't think you can say we got Gomez instead of a defender, as we got both. Now, whether or not Kantari is enough remains to be seen, but he has looked better as he gets more time in. We've hardly seen enough of Gonez to see if he can be helpful to us.

[jabbronies]

Ravi, we got a defender (Kantari) and a forward, which should have addressed two of our big needs. So I don't think you can say we got Gomez instead of a defender, as we got both. Now, whether or not Kantari is enough remains to be seen, but he has looked better as he gets more time in. We've hardly seen enough of Gonez to see if he can be helpful to us.

Kantari and Williams both seem like "For now" pick ups.

[Jack]

Kantari and Williams both seem like "For now" pick ups.

Gomez isn't exactly a long-term signing, either. We picked up three players that, on the surface, addressed the areas we needed to address. They might not be as good as we'd like, but I am pleased that our management was doing something to shore up our weak areas.

[MightyDM]

I am concerned about Vanneys tactics in today's NER match. Like several previous matches we have lost, he keeps Bradley forward even whenCheyrou and or Warner are not there as CDM. With predictable results. We gave up the first goal in the first half again. The statistics on this are incredible and not in his favour. Something wrong.

[bignickel]

I am concerned about Vanneys tactics in today's NER match. Like several previous matches we have lost, he keeps Bradley forward even whenCheyrou and or Warner are not there as CDM. With predictable results. We gave up the first goal in the first half again. The statistics on this are incredible and not in his favour. Something wrong.

I agree. the solution is simple, there is no salary cap on coaches, Bez should get on an airplane to Iceland right now and offer their national team coach a $10 million contract!!

[reggie]

no...BEZ should be looking for another job never mind looking for another coach.

[Oldtimer]

I am concerned about Vanneys tactics in today's NER match. Like several previous matches we have lost, he keeps Bradley forward even whenCheyrou and or Warner are not there as CDM. With predictable results. We gave up the first goal in the first half again. The statistics on this are incredible and not in his favour. Something wrong.

Actually, I agreed with his tactics. A high offense forced their strong attackers back for most of the game. This loss isn't on him. It's on our forwards not finishing, combined with two enormous brain-farts. You can't coach away stupidity, it even occurs with otherwise good players at times (Michael Bradley, what were you thinking?).

[OgtheDim]

Bradley up on the big screen shouting at himself "Fucking Hell" pretty much answered that question.

[Blizzard]

Bradley up on the big screen shouting at himself "Fucking Hell" pretty much answered that question.

Ya, that was an incredibly major vapour lock by our captain.

[barticusz]

Pain.

[Super]

I really just want to move on from this game and forget all about it. Honestly, even Giovinco should have had 1 or 2 goals. We just didn't have the luck on our side yesterday as much as NER had it on theirs. That's football. I think we win that game 9 times out of 10 - but that won't happen when you burn your chances like we did.

So moving on ...

[ensco]

I am concerned about Vanneys tactics in today's NER match. Like several previous matches we have lost, he keeps Bradley forward even whenCheyrou and or Warner are not there as CDM. With predictable results. We gave up the first goal in the first half again. The statistics on this are incredible and not in his favour. Something wrong.

This is becoming very obvious and I am shocked that anyone would see it differently. It's not about the mistakes yesterday - they are symptoms not causes - it's obvious, over many games, that we lack spine and can't shut teams down.

It's one thing for Klinsmann to do play Bradley forward when he has Jermaine Jones and Omar Gonzalez etc, behind Bradley, but with the spine we have, this is nuts.

[ManUtd4ever]

Vanney deserves some criticism, but I don't think the results of the last two games reflect the way we played for the most part. It's tough to pin the blame entirely on the manager when individual errors cost us points in both matches. We deserved a draw in Seattle and a victory yesterday based on the run of play.

[Oldtimer]

Vanney deserves some criticism, but I don't think the results of the last two games reflect the way we played for the most part. It's tough to pin the blame entirely on the manager when individual errors cost us points in both matches. We deserved a draw in Seattle and a victory yesterday based on the run of play.

Exactly. There are times for drama, and Vanney is not perfect, but this game isn't one of those times.
If he had played Bradley back, TFC would have been forced into a defensive shell, and the Revs would have just peppered shots at our goal, with pretty well the same result or worse.

Sometimes it's on the players, and this pretty clearly was one of those times.

[OgtheDim]

Bradley isn't a DM. Suggesting its Vanney's fault for the lack of a DM is suggesting that its Vanney's fault for Cheyrou's injury and Warner's rush of blood to his head about the Mohawk'd one dribbling past Cheyrou down on the ground.

If anything, its Bez's fault for us not having a 3rd possible player to play DM. That's a pretty minor quibble in this league where most teams don't have 3 decent DM's. And we had one - he flamed out at RB and went off so we could get some allocation to get Gomez.

[A Stick]

Vanney should of never had Altidore out left and Giovinco in the middle.

[trane]

Actually, I agreed with his tactics. A high offense forced their strong attackers back for most of the game. This loss isn't on him. It's on our forwards not finishing, combined with two enormous brain-farts. You can't coach away stupidity, it even occurs with otherwise good players at times (Michael Bradley, what were you thinking?).

The coach is there to coach away stupidity,either by practicing until stupidity is kept to a minimal and/or organizing in a way that mistakes are minimized. As good as we have been offesively, he has not improved us defensively, and this is why we get back to this thread, after most losses because we are simply not good enough defensively, and in the football world it is on him.

But now it is too late. It is what it is, lets hope that Giovinco and Co can score 3+ a game and maybe we will be ok.

[C.Ronaldo]

Vanney should of never had Altidore out left and Giovinco in the middle.

i would have been much happier with Moore in the middle with gionvino and altidore at his sides

[molenshtain]

Findley had a good game though, to be fair. A 4-3-3 going forward with Altidore in the middle and a midfield of Bradley - Cheyrou - Warner/Osorio wouldn't be bad going forward.

[Oldtimer]

The coach is there to coach away stupidity,either by practicing until stupidity is kept to a minimal and/or organizing in a way that mistakes are minimized.

Michael Bradley has been coached by some of the best coaches in Italy. Stupidity happens, even with otherwise good players who have had excellent training.

[ensco]

Bradley isn't a DM. Suggesting its Vanney's fault for the lack of a DM is suggesting that its Vanney's fault for Cheyrou's injury and Warner's rush of blood to his head about the Mohawk'd one dribbling past Cheyrou down on the ground.

If anything, its Bez's fault for us not having a 3rd possible player to play DM. That's a pretty minor quibble in this league where most teams don't have 3 decent DM's. And we had one - he flamed out at RB and went off so we could get some allocation to get Gomez.

It's Vanney's fault if he uses Bradley in a role that requires DM coverage, and there isn't any DM coverage.

I was satisfied with the Seattle game, but anyone who thinks yesterday was just of of those days is wrong, imho. Every good team we play does the same thing to us, and wins without breaking into a sweat.

[Ultra & Proud]

Problem is we have individual errors that cost goals. On other MLS teams when one guy does an MLS level mistake that team will have usually a guy or two covering for that mistake. It seems that when we have our mistake moments we have 3 or more players all going to shit at the same time while the rest just stand there and watch. These compounded errors speak of the squads inability to focus completely for 90 minutes and that's on the coach.

[Oldtimer]

So if Bradley was played as a DM as many of you think he should have, how many more defensive mistakes would he have made that cost us goals?
Fact is, he's best as offensive or box-to-box, not as a DM. Vanney called this one right.

[Ossington Mental Youth]

I agree. the solution is simple, there is no salary cap on coaches, Bez should get on an airplane to Iceland right now and offer their national team coach a $10 million contract!!

its more than the coach, theyve been working on a nation wide reform of football for a decade or so now, something Canada could use

[trane]

So if Bradley was played as a DM as many of you think he should have, how many more defensive mistakes would he have made that cost us goals?
Fact is, he's best as offensive or box-to-box, not as a DM. Vanney called this one right.

Bradley is not an attacking mid. He is either a box-to-box midfielder or a DM, although he is too aggressive going forward when he has played in that role this year. He is not a true AM, playing up there has its advantages, because he is tenacious and aggressive and he creates, and has good vision.


Bradley is also not being coached in Italy at the moment, but by Vanney in Canada, so he is Vanney's player, so what he does is Vanney's responsibility. That is the nature of being a manager. He is not a trainer, but a manager. A manager is ultimately responsible for the performance of his group. BY the way a group is a collection of individuals, so at some point all groups mistakes can be seen as individual mistakes, but no matter how one sees it we have made to many of them, and we are not getting enough of this group of individuals.

In football, I do not know about hockey, but in football managers mater. A good manager gets the most out of his group of individuals. Vanney has done well offensively, but unfortunately not well enough to counterbalance our continued defensive deficiencies.

This is the bottom line, we can pussy foot around it, we can be partisan to Vanney, who admittedly has his qualities as a manager, but in one key area he keeps on failing. That is the reality. Now I will give you this, this late in the season it is late to fire him, there are not enough games left for it to make a difference.

We may still make the play offs, but we will need a miracle turnaround on defense and/or monster performances on offense to get anything more, then perhaps just getting in the play-offs.

[trane]

I am looking at this thread it was started on May 13 of this year. This is not a new problem, and it continued from last year. This team just does not defend well enough, to be a serious contender.

[Richard]

Bradley isn't a DM. Suggesting its Vanney's fault for the lack of a DM is suggesting that its Vanney's fault for Cheyrou's injury and Warner's rush of blood to his head about the Mohawk'd one dribbling past Cheyrou down on the ground.

If anything, its Bez's fault for us not having a 3rd possible player to play DM. That's a pretty minor quibble in this league where most teams don't have 3 decent DM's. And we had one - he flamed out at RB and went off so we could get some allocation to get Gomez.


This last one irks me, Vanney plays Creavalle out of his natural position and performs terribly as a RB, he then becomes the scape goat and is shipped off to get Gomez who has done fuck all since he came here, for some reason Vanney cant find it in him to play him ahead of Findley who has been shite all year since until last game.

So we had a pretty decent midfielder from what I saw in Creavalle who was given the short end of the stick being played out of position, and now we got an extra forward to do nothing instead of an extra depth midfielder. :facepalm:

Not saying putting Creavalle into the NER match would have solved things, but I sure as hell didn't see our extra veteran forward being put to use in a match where we were getting 20+shots.

[Oldtimer]

Bradley is not an attacking mid. He is either a box-to-box midfielder or a DM, although he is too aggressive going forward when he has played in that role this year. He is not a true AM, playing up there has its advantages, because he is tenacious and aggressive and he creates, and has good vision.


Bradley is also not being coached in Italy at the moment, but by Vanney in Canada, so he is Vanney's player, so what he does is Vanney's responsibility. That is the nature of being a manager. He is not a trainer, but a manager.

Ok, but it's not like Vanney has been getting Bradley to unlearn what he learned in Italy. It's really unfair to blame him for the defensive mistake Bradley made. That's on the player 100%.

As far as Bradley's best position, I'll agree he's not a true AM, but he's not a DM either. Box to box really is what he is at his best.

[OgtheDim]

It's Vanney's fault if he uses Bradley in a role that requires DM coverage, and there isn't any DM coverage.




There was no DM.

Any game against NER requires a DM.

[OgtheDim]

Problem is we have individual errors that cost goals. On other MLS teams when one guy does an MLS level mistake that team will have usually a guy or two covering for that mistake.

Chicago and Orlando have worse defences then ours,truth be told.

[jloome]

There was no DM.

Any game against NER requires a DM.

We were playing a tilted 3-4-3, which effectively is like playing a 5-2-3, with at least one centre back left over to offer cover. So you don't really need it. What we need is better defenders. Perquis, Williams are shit, Kantari may be too. Zavaletta and Hagglund both have promise but some issues.

We outhshot them 21-4 and we outpossessed them 60-40. We gave them two of their three goals. Why anyone thinks this has anything to do with Greg Vanney is beyond me.

EDIT: I'll also add that I don't think Bez really scouted Perquis or Kantari, he just took them on pedigree. Fans from both clubs were quite clear they were baffled by TFC's decision, as both defenders had been average for most of their career and shit for some time.

[Richard]

We were playing a tilted 3-4-3, which effectively is like playing a 5-2-3, with at least one centre back left over to offer cover. So you don't really need it. What we need is better defenders. Perquis, Williams are shit, Kantari may be too. Zavaletta and Hagglund both have promise but some issues.

We outhshot them 21-4 and we outpossessed them 60-40. We gave them two of their three goals. Why anyone thinks this has anything to do with Greg Vanney is beyond me.

EDIT: I'll also add that I don't think Bez really scouted Perquis or Kantari, he just took them on pedigree. Fans from both clubs were quite clear they were baffled by TFC's decision, as both defenders had been average for most of their career and shit for some time.

Agree with you for the most part except I wouldn't judge Kantari yet as he just arrived here, it usually takes a defender longer to adjust but I do agree with you on Perquis, he's been tremendously underperforming for what he was being sold as.

[ag futbol]

Ok, but it's not like Vanney has been getting Bradley to unlearn what he learned in Italy. It's really unfair to blame him for the defensive mistake Bradley made. That's on the player 100%.

As far as Bradley's best position, I'll agree he's not a true AM, but he's not a DM either. Box to box really is what he is at his best.
Based on what I've seen to date, I'll take him at the AM spot over DM any day of the week. Box to box is his best spot but it seems that's not always a dedicated role on this team.

[Roca]

Agree with you for the most part except I wouldn't judge Kantari yet as he just arrived here, it usually takes a defender longer to adjust but I do agree with you on Perquis, he's been tremendously underperforming for what he was being sold as.

Agree about Perquis underperforming. But a couple of other points about the own goal that bothered me at the game and were confirmed when I saw the highlights:

1) The NE player looks to be offside when he gets the pass that puts him through. Be that as it may, it's not as crucial as

2) There was a line of four(!!) NE players behind our last defender when Perquis put the ball in our net. Even if Perquis had completely missed the ball, there were at least two other NE players totally unmarked directly in front of the net to make a simple tap-in.

Although I've been a supporter of Vanney, this play speaks loudly about training and coaching. I am nowhere near as knowledgeable about strategy and tactics as many other members here, but how can this sort of thing -- FOUR players behind the last defender FFS -- happen to a supposedly professional team without coaching having something to do with it?

[Oldtimer]

It can't be that we have some of the worst defenders in the league?

[MightyDM]

It's Vanney's fault if he uses Bradley in a role that requires DM coverage, and there isn't any DM coverage.

I was satisfied with the Seattle game, but anyone who thinks yesterday was just of of those days is wrong, imho. Every good team we play does the same thing to us, and wins without breaking into a sweat.

Ensco is saying what I was trying to say, but clearly.

[Ossington Mental Youth]

We were playing a tilted 3-4-3, which effectively is like playing a 5-2-3, with at least one centre back left over to offer cover. So you don't really need it. What we need is better defenders. Perquis, Williams are shit, Kantari may be too. Zavaletta and Hagglund both have promise but some issues.

We outhshot them 21-4 and we outpossessed them 60-40. We gave them two of their three goals. Why anyone thinks this has anything to do with Greg Vanney is beyond me.

EDIT: I'll also add that I don't think Bez really scouted Perquis or Kantari, he just took them on pedigree. Fans from both clubs were quite clear they were baffled by TFC's decision, as both defenders had been average for most of their career and shit for some time.
Think Williams has been great. Am curious to see what happens to Perquis and maybe Kantari in the off season

[ensco]

We were playing a tilted 3-4-3, which effectively is like playing a 5-2-3, with at least one centre back left over to offer cover. So you don't really need it. What we need is better defenders. Perquis, Williams are shit, Kantari may be too. Zavaletta and Hagglund both have promise but some issues.

We outhshot them 21-4 and we outpossessed them 60-40. We gave them two of their three goals. Why anyone thinks this has anything to do with Greg Vanney is beyond me.

EDIT: I'll also add that I don't think Bez really scouted Perquis or Kantari, he just took them on pedigree. Fans from both clubs were quite clear they were baffled by TFC's decision, as both defenders had been average for most of their career and shit for some time.

jloome the stats don't tell the story. They were bunkering and playing the counter. It was a smart gameplan that worked.

Agree re scouting. Same as it ever was.

[CBTFC]

We outhshot them 21-4 and we outpossessed them 60-40. We gave them two of their three goals. Why anyone thinks this has anything to do with Greg Vanney is beyond me.

This.

The players on the field HAVE to finish their chances. Vanney himself can't suit up and get on the pitch.

On to NYCFC at Yankee Stadium.

[spark]

EDIT: I'll also add that I don't think Bez really scouted Perquis or Kantari, he just took them on pedigree. Fans from both clubs were quite clear they were baffled by TFC's decision, as both defenders had been average for most of their career and shit for some time.

I'd guess this came through the "director of scouting operations" who used to work for Scout7. I wouldn't be surprised if we either took them via some third party recommendation, or Vanney has an agent buddy or someone in France he's just using as a shortcut.

[Fort York Redcoat]

I'd guess this came through the "director of scouting operations" who used to work for Scout7. I wouldn't be surprised if we either took them via some third party recommendation, or Vanney has an agent buddy or someone in France he's just using as a shortcut.

It's really frustrating to connect those dots and see not a lot of options in an entire world of football to pursue (within reason, of course).

[trane]

We were playing a tilted 3-4-3, which effectively is like playing a 5-2-3, with at least one centre back left over to offer cover. So you don't really need it. What we need is better defenders. Perquis, Williams are shit, Kantari may be too. Zavaletta and Hagglund both have promise but some issues.

We outhshot them 21-4 and we outpossessed them 60-40. We gave them two of their three goals. Why anyone thinks this has anything to do with Greg Vanney is beyond me.

EDIT: I'll also add that I don't think Bez really scouted Perquis or Kantari, he just took them on pedigree. Fans from both clubs were quite clear they were baffled by TFC's decision, as both defenders had been average for most of their career and shit for some time.

But this is not a new problem. This is been going on since the beginning of the season. So if Perquis and Kantari are mistake prone, you need to cover them with a DM.

Again, when we start these discussion I end up sounding more anti-Vanney then I really am, because I do see some positives under him. But this problem did not start yesterday, and it is frustrating that we have not been able to address in any reasonable manner.

I have not made my mind up about Kantari, and despite everything I still think him him and Perquis are as good a paring as we have had, in many aspects. But Perquis is mistake prone, which clearly is a problem.

I also want to say, a good cb wants to minimize his time on the ball in the box, so in light of the pressure that the back line gets on a constant with our club, it is natural that the number of mistakes go up.

[boozilla]

Perquis made a suicide pass early on and then had an OG. He had another bad giveaway early in the 2nd half, was clearly rattled and it was obviously not his night. Should have been subbed off then. Bradley's arrogance by dribbling in the box is what sticks out for me.

[ensco]

I think this thread may be in overdrive at about 10pm tonight

[Oldtimer]

I think this thread may be in overdrive at about 10pm tonight

If TFC loses, it will be.

If TFC wins *crickets* .

[trane]

^ Come on it is not about living or lossing, it is about how we win or loss, it is about can we address our defensive problems.

[Ultra & Proud]

Is there really a point in riding him out at this point for any other reason than to avoid doing our traditional TFC thing?

[OgtheDim]

Is there really a point in riding him out at this point for any other reason than to avoid doing our traditional TFC thing?

Yes. Firing him now and you give up on the season. With game against the teams under us, we are in with a good shout still.

IF we don't make the playoffs, he and Bez are fired.

[Ultra & Proud]

Yes. Firing him now and you give up on the season. With game against the teams under us, we are in with a good shout still.

IF we don't make the playoffs, he and Bez are fired.

Trending worse than Nelsen was when he got sacked. And Montreal don't look they they gave up on the season by dumping Klopas do they?

[OgtheDim]

Trending worse than Nelsen was when he got sacked. And Montreal don't look they they gave up on the season by dumping Klopas do they?

A tad different timing wise, and that you don't recognize that just about says enough for me and this thread.

[notthesun]

I wouldn't fire Vanney at this point (besides, who would replace him?). In terms of what I think will happen, I think his job is safe until the end of the season regardless of how we do.

That being said, this game against NYC reminded me of Nelsen's last game in charge against NE. It was very nearly just as dire. Zero cohesion in midfield, the back line an absolute mess, and no urgency or passion from anyone. And Altidore at RM is a joke from Vanney, a complete joke of a decision.

Despite a few decent chances created you still never got the sense that we were going to score. It was that bleak. I look at this performance today and it's really hard to believe something is not rotten at the core of this team.

[Oldtimer]

This one is on Vanney.

[Ultra & Proud]

A tad different timing wise, and that you don't recognize that just about says enough for me and this thread.
Wasn't that last week?

[notthesun]

When your worst performance of the season comes in the middle of a playoff race against one of the worst teams in the league, that's about as damning a statement about your coach that can be made. We're in serious trouble.

[Ultra & Proud]

When your worst performance of the season comes in the middle of a playoff race against one of the worst teams in the league, that's about as damning a statement about your coach that can be made. We're in serious trouble.
I agree with this 100% and if they announced Vanney was sacked tomorrow morning and replaced with anyone not named Fraser then I'd stand and clap.

Last year I hated the Nelsen firing even though I knew we were trending bad. This year our team is better and I think we're trending worse and I see no signs that anything can or will be fixed by Vanney.

[notthesun]

I agree with this 100% and if they announced Vanney was sacked tomorrow morning and replaced with anyone not named Fraser then I'd stand and clap.

Last year I hated the Nelsen firing even though I knew we were trending bad. This year our team is better and I think we're trending worse and I see no signs that anything can or will be fixed by Vanney.

I think he's safe mostly because there's really nobody within the club ready to take the job. I suppose Fraser could have been added as the parachute but for some reason I don't get that sense with him. If there was someone available and we dropped out of a playoff spot, the pressure would be too great for Bez to stand pat I think. But there doesn't appear to be anybody, so for better or worse Vanney is the guy until the end of this year.

[Richard]

If you sack Vanney then you get rid of Bez too, you simply let the season play itself out so both can fully own the responsibility of whatever happens in the end.

[Ultra & Proud]

If you sack Vanney then you get rid of Bez too, you simply let the season play itself out so both can fully own the responsibility of whatever happens in the end.
As much as I hated tanking the end of last season, I would REALLY hate doing that this one.

[OgtheDim]

If you sack Vanney then you get rid of Bez too, you simply let the season play itself out so both can fully own the responsibility of whatever happens in the end.

Agreed.

And I put this more on Bez then Vanney - defence issues not solved and wide attack play not addressed.

We are a better team then last season (and not just Giovinco) but those 2 areas were known last November. The defence was attempted to be addressed and has obviously failed. The wide attack was never addressed.

[Ultra & Proud]

Agreed.

And I put this more on Bez then Vanney - defence issues not solved and wide attack play not addressed.

We are a better team then last season (and not just Giovinco) but those 2 areas were known last November. The defence was attempted to be addressed and has obviously failed. The wide attack was never addressed.
Jackson can play wide. Vanney chose to not use him there. Also I think wide players weren't addressed because Vanney's various set ups don't use them. Why buy what won't get used?

[billyfly]

Hey here's that thread again.

[MightyDM]

I think this thread may be in overdrive at about 10pm tonight

From one o'clock....

[MightyDM]

I missed most of the game, although the part I watched was dire. Bradley in particular was totally awful, but mostly dire because everyone was walking around.

here is what I question: the times we have been effective Morgan was on the left, and morrow on the right. Secondarily, Morrow on the left and Jackson on the right. Delgado is not Jackson. Williams might be. If Morgan and Jackson are truly hurt, we still need the bite of Jackson or Morrow over there. Has to be a hard player on the pitch.

the times we have been effective, Gio has drifted to the left.
Yet our recent formations push him central



I can't tell you exactly what V is doing wrong. But the record of conceding the first goal in the first half since he started coaching this team is shocking and tells a serious story. Multiple line ups, same basic weakness.

[ag futbol]

Jackson can play wide. Vanney chose to not use him there. Also I think wide players weren't addressed because Vanney's various set ups don't use them. Why buy what won't get used?
Jackson is okay, but you typically give up something with him out there. Wouldn't consider it the strongest option. Definitely would not switch the formation on his account.

Even if we're saying we play narrow, the option aren't all that great. Delgado is a sub and Osorio IMO is treading the line between starter and not. You need more guys who deliver an end product on this team... Full stop.

Lots of players who otherwise look okay but rarely score goals or deliver the final ball.

[Ultra & Proud]

Jackson is okay, but you typically give up something with him out there. Wouldn't consider it the strongest option. Definitely would not switch the formation on his account.

Even if we're saying we play narrow, the option aren't all that great. Delgado is a sub and Osorio IMO is treading the line between starter and not. You need more guys who deliver an end product on this team... Full stop.

Lots of players who otherwise look okay but rarely score goals or deliver the final ball.
On this team right now, I'd take Jackson over Osorio or Delgado in a second. He's not the total end product guy but better than what we have right now. And his crossing looked good this year so far.

[OgtheDim]

Osorio had some great games in the last couple of weeks - this week he was nowhere to be found. Inverted winger in that shoebox? Made no sense.

[ensco]

We are going to win a couple of games here. We will make the playoffs. Which actually galls me.

We will be the team everyone wants to play in the playoffs. That last week of the season, teams will play starters they should be resting, or tanking, to try to get us.

And there'll be a big "but we made the playoffs!" endzone dance going on. This'll be worse than the time Montreal lay down in Concacaf to screw over Vancouver.

Yay.

[portu]

The fullback situation should be (1) Morgan-Morrow or if Morgan's not available (2) Morrow-Jackson

[BelfastBoy]

We are going to win a couple of games here. We will make the playoffs. Which actually galls me.

We will be the team everyone wants to play in the playoffs. That last week of the season, teams will play starters they should be resting, or tanking, to try to get us.

And there'll be a big "but we made the playoffs!" endzone dance going on. This'll be worse than the time Montreal lay down in Concacaf to screw over Vancouver.

Yay.

Sadly, just squeaking into the playoffs will do a lot for this club in terms of general public perception. Even though its a really a hollow victory.

[Hamilton_Red]

I'll go crazy if they fire Vanney and begin a search for a new coach. He stays until we have a much better - proven international level manager. Who in the world thought it a good idea to give a rookie manager who was an assistant manager at bloody Chivas USA the worst franchise in the league - the top job in the team with the biggest payroll in the league? That person should be fired immediately.

I can't see what Vanney brings to the role - the players aren't coming out motivated, they aren't organized, he hasn't got the ego to manage these big DP's - who need a kick in the arse more often than not.

[Ivy]

There is a group of Italians waiting to be unleashed as soon as the final whistle is blown on 2015.

[OgtheDim]

There is a group of Italians waiting to be unleashed as soon as the final whistle is blown on 2015.


Funny how many of them mentioned are close to if not over 60.

[Chevy]

Sadly, just squeaking into the playoffs will do a lot for this club in terms of general public perception. Even though its a really a hollow victory.

You're probably right. As it stands today, it looks like we're lined up for a good ass-kicking at DCU in the first playoff game. So we have that going for us.

[kwhisperer]

Sadly, just squeaking into the playoffs will do a lot for this club in terms of general public perception. Even though its a really a hollow victory.

I'd like to think folks would get the difference between making playoffs in fifth and squeaking through in sixth...but you're probably right. The whole situation is very dispiriting.

[ensco]

Sadly, just squeaking into the playoffs will do a lot for this club in terms of general public perception. Even though its a really a hollow victory.

I disagree. There is too much water under the bridge for that, and the underperformance (given the spending) is massive.

[Initial B]

I've always thought Marc dos Santos would be a good coach to have for TFC. Look at what he's done in two years with the Fury.

[Fort York Redcoat]

We are going to win a couple of games here. We will make the playoffs. Which actually galls me.

We will be the team everyone wants to play in the playoffs. That last week of the season, teams will play starters they should be resting, or tanking, to try to get us.

And there'll be a big "but we made the playoffs!" endzone dance going on. This'll be worse than the time Montreal lay down in Concacaf to screw over Vancouver.

Yay.

http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100512005544/uncyclopedia/images/9/95/Statler-Waldorf-Muppets.jpg

*Actual photo from the future- Oct 26th 2015*

I'm on the left so that must be ensco on the right.g:D

But since this is the Vanney thread I'll say we would need another locker room, board room type drama for Vanney to leave before end of season.

[zeelaw]

Why did Vanney sub out Warriner and put on Perquis when we were down 2-0?

[Ultra & Proud]

Why did Vanney sub out Warriner and put on Perquis when we were down 2-0?
*management*

https://imgflip.com/i/r6tvq

[ag futbol]

I'll go crazy if they fire Vanney and begin a search for a new coach. He stays until we have a much better - proven international level manager. Who in the world thought it a good idea to give a rookie manager who was an assistant manager at bloody Chivas USA the worst franchise in the league - the top job in the team with the biggest payroll in the league? That person should be fired immediately.

Agreed we need to stop hiring jr. people (the GM isn't any better btw - not sure why he's always getting a pass with people).

I'd be careful with the international manager. This is still a so-so league where guys who are "pros" still need to learn things drilled into world class players well before they show up on the coach's doorstep - the skill set needed here is different.

I'd get someone from a so-so league who speaks Spanish, knows MLS feeders (aka south / Central America), and has an outstanding track record. I've said this before, I'll say it again: using Europe as a primary source for non-DPs is dumb.

[Ultra & Proud]

I've said this before, I'll say it again: using Europe as a primary source for non-DPs is dumb.
Generally agree but only because we aim for scrubs from good leagues and their cost is up.

I know you could get decent players from lower level Europe for the right price but it would take significant scouting and I am not sure we do any of that beyond Transfer Market and Wiki.

[A Stick]

GM Bez has been really quiet lately.

[Oldtimer]

GM Bez has been really quiet lately.

He's mulling over his options. He knows Vanney has crap players for defenders, but Vanney is making even these poor misfits under-perform.

If this was Montreal, Vanney would be already out the door. The "Big Cheese" Joey there doesn't tolerate this level of under-performance. With MLSE under-performance is a way of life, it takes a while (and probably a board resolution) to get rid of someone ( * cough JFJ * * cough * ).

I give Vanney less than 50% chance of staying after the season is over, though, unless things improve--and fast! There are plenty of Italian (and French for that matter) coaches that would love a gig in Toronto. Though quite honestly I would prefer Kreis to just about anyone else. He plays the same style as this team is built for, just with a whole lot more tactical ability, man-management, and just plain acumen.

[Ultra & Proud]

I give Vanney less than 50% chance of staying after the season is over
I'm giving him 50/50 to finish the season unless things turn around fast and we take advantage of playing crappy teams at home. I think he is probably 90% gone after the season unless we shockingly make a deep playoff run but I think we all know that isn't going to happen.

Vanney will get thanked for doing the stepping stone thing and they'll say they need an experienced manager to take them to the next level. Cue the Italian guy(s) they have lined up.

[Oldtimer]

I'm giving him 50/50 to finish the season unless things turn around fast and we take advantage of playing crappy teams at home. I think he is probably 90% gone after the season unless we shockingly make a deep playoff run but I think we all know that isn't going to happen.

Vanney will get thanked for doing the stepping stone thing and they'll say they need an experienced manager to take them to the next level. Cue the Italian guy(s) they have lined up.

Pretty much. Not sure of the exact odds but I can't say I disagree with your scenario. MLSE has invested so much in this team, no way are they going to let second-rate coaching ruin their "superclub" desires. Vanney someday may be a really good coach (he has the mind for it), but he's not there yet.

[notthesun]

The concerning thing is there's no clear direction in which we're heading.

The roster has flaws, everyone knows that. But you would expect a decent manager to do what he can to work around our issues as much as possible and show some improvement as time passes.

We're nearly done the season and we have no identity and no idea what our best XI looks like. There's no discernible system or plan of attack lately. The majority of the season we've been near the bottom of the league in terms of average number of crosses per game: playing down the middle was the idea, and it was working, more or less. 3 weeks ago we beat Montreal 2-1 at home while playing 7 crosses - 7! - in the entire game. Against NYC yesterday we played 23 crosses. I'm willing to give a little leeway because of the width of the pitch there, but against New England on the weekend we lost while playing 34 crosses.

Just compare the stats from the New England (http://www.whoscored.com/Matches/915007/MatchReport/USA-Major-League-Soccer-2015-Toronto-FC-New-England-Rev) and Montreal (http://www.whoscored.com/Matches/915179/MatchReport/USA-Major-League-Soccer-2015-Toronto-FC-Montreal-Impact) games. Almost identical: 60% possession vs. 56%, 65 long balls vs. 62, 437 short passes exactly for both. Why are we so drastically changing our behaviour now? Sure, New England defended the middle better and sat back a lot more than Montreal, but that alone doesn't account for such a large difference. If Vanney hasn't told them to make this change I don't understand how he hasn't seen what's going on and taken steps to address it. If he has told them to do it I don't get it at all. You want to play crosses but our best target men are at right mid (Altidore) and on the bench (Moore)?

Giovinco was murdering teams when we were playing the diamond. Vanney's been tinkering with 3 at the back, 4-2-3-1 variations, and Giovinco's been getting less space and receiving the ball in far less dangerous areas. I think there's a correlation there.

I don't even need to get into the defensive issues. It's ridiculous that at this point in the season nobody can say with no doubt what our best back line looks like, and that's completely on Vanney.

I don't know. I saw a lot of good things through the middle of the season. I thought we were working towards something. The last two games have just been so weirdly disappointing. Like we're getting desperate and getting away from what got us a decent amount of success so far.

It hurts to see New England lose 5 straight earlier in the season and now be on a 6 game winning streak, and the entire time using the exact same formation, the exact same back line, more or less the exact same tactics. Instead of panicking when things started going south they stuck to what they knew, worked on the kinks, and now they're rolling. I feel like we're in panic mode now and we need to get back to what worked for us.

[Initial B]

Perhaps direction is best left to whatever president MLSE chooses to install. (Why haven't they installed one yet!?) I think the vacuum at the top is why we're struggling now with no vision.

[Ultra & Proud]

The concerning thing is there's no clear direction in which we're heading.

The roster has flaws, everyone knows that. But you would expect a decent manager to do what he can to work around our issues as much as possible and show some improvement as time passes.

We're nearly done the season and we have no identity and no idea what our best XI looks like. There's no discernible system or plan of attack lately. The majority of the season we've been near the bottom of the league in terms of average number of crosses per game: playing down the middle was the idea, and it was working, more or less. 3 weeks ago we beat Montreal 2-1 at home while playing 7 crosses - 7! - in the entire game. Against NYC yesterday we played 23 crosses. I'm willing to give a little leeway because of the width of the pitch there, but against New England on the weekend we lost while playing 34 crosses.

Just compare the stats from the New England (http://www.whoscored.com/Matches/915007/MatchReport/USA-Major-League-Soccer-2015-Toronto-FC-New-England-Rev) and Montreal (http://www.whoscored.com/Matches/915179/MatchReport/USA-Major-League-Soccer-2015-Toronto-FC-Montreal-Impact) games. Almost identical: 60% possession vs. 56%, 65 long balls vs. 62, 437 short passes exactly for both. Why are we so drastically changing our behaviour now? Sure, New England defended the middle better and sat back a lot more than Montreal, but that alone doesn't account for such a large difference. If Vanney hasn't told them to make this change I don't understand how he hasn't seen what's going on and taken steps to address it. If he has told them to do it I don't get it at all. You want to play crosses but our best target men are at right mid (Altidore) and on the bench (Moore)?

Giovinco was murdering teams when we were playing the diamond. Vanney's been tinkering with 3 at the back, 4-2-3-1 variations, and Giovinco's been getting less space and receiving the ball in far less dangerous areas. I think there's a correlation there.

I don't even need to get into the defensive issues. It's ridiculous that at this point in the season nobody can say with no doubt what our best back line looks like, and that's completely on Vanney.

I don't know. I saw a lot of good things through the middle of the season. I thought we were working towards something. The last two games have just been so weirdly disappointing. Like we're getting desperate and getting away from what got us a decent amount of success so far.

It hurts to see New England lose 5 straight earlier in the season and now be on a 6 game winning streak, and the entire time using the exact same formation, the exact same back line, more or less the exact same tactics. Instead of panicking when things started going south they stuck to what they knew, worked on the kinks, and now they're rolling. I feel like we're in panic mode now and we need to get back to what worked for us.
I think us getting burned and totally shut down by the teams who pressed up forced Vanney to switch things up as it scared the hell out him. He has been tinkering ever since and never found an answer but seems reluctant to revert back to the previously successful diamond. I have a feeling he and his staff are of the opinion that by being unpredictable and by switching tactics and formations often they can catch teams off guard and they'll have no way to mark both Giovinco and Altidore out of matches. Trouble is that the main team that gets lost with these changes is our own. Plus his utilization of players is poor. He sets them up to do worse than they should (Altidore mainly). With a sensible coach, our front line should be a handful for anybody almost all of the time but it's inconsistently dangerous.

[Areathrasher]

I'd get someone from a so-so league who speaks Spanish, knows MLS feeders (aka south / Central America), and has an outstanding track record.
Step forward
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guillermo_Barros_Schelotto

Ex Crew player. Been managing Lanus in Argentina for the last 3 years. Won the Copa Sudamerica with them (SA Europa League).

Advised Argies on moves to MLS (Valeri & Melano)

Good read here http://jugadorfranquicia.com/2014/09/21/schelotto-i-like-the-idea-of-coaching-in-the-mls-someday/

Not too long ago your name was mentioned as a possible coach for Columbus Crew. Did you get a solid offer from the club? Do you see the MLS as a still distant option in your coaching career?
I received a phone call from the Columbus Crew general manager. They were interested in my situation in Lanús. Well, the team had a new owner. The previous owners were members of the Hunt family and I think (Anthony) Precourt had recently bought the club. I was under contract and could not get out of Lanús, obviously. They never offered me the coach position, (Mark) McCullers just wanted to know what my situation was. I really look forward to the possibility of training an MLS team and I hope I can work there someday. Today I have a contract with Lanús, but I do not rule out the Major League Soccer. As soon as I am available and a MLS club makes me an offer, I will be there. I am not going to speculate, or wait to be again in the MLS at the end of my coaching career. I think of the league as a possibility in the near future.
Is Columbus Crew the only option for you in the MLS? Or are you willing to listen to offers from other teams?
Obviously I have a great sense of appreciation and gratitude for Columbus, because they have treated me very well both in the club and the city. But overall the MLS clubs and the people working for them behave according to similar parameters. Any team would be a good option for me.

[OgtheDim]

Why did Vanney sub out Warriner and put on Perquis when we were down 2-0?

Cause

a) Warner was slightly more doggie doo then Cheyrou and Delgado was more useful going forward

b) Likely starting 4 at the back was going to be that back four of Morrow Perquis Kantari and Williams - get them a few minutes together. Now with there being talk of Kantari getting a suspension, that's likely mute

[TFC Tifoso]

This one is on Vanney.

I am a supporter of Vanney but I agree here......regardless of anything else that went wrong last night, putting Altidore at RM shows a lack of understanding of what a player can contribute. In no universe is Altidore a RM.....that decision was just baffling.....