The Vanney Era Deathwatch Thread

[barticusz]

Vanney seems to have put it together, great, but still does not mean that with the start of the season, we should not have been looking around for a proven coach, as the signs were not positive until this run started. Clearly now he has earned an opportunity, but lets face it a stretch of horrible games and that picture changes. It is the nature of the job.

................ We started the season with SEVEN STRAIGHT ROAD MATCHES... you cannot judge a manager based on such a small sample size that is so heavily skewed against them. I talked about the fact that he's mostly been in charge of road matches and to confirm that, he's managed 24 MLS matches thus far. 58% of those matches have been on the road. He's just finally catching up to having played an equal number at home and away which is a much better sample to crucify a manager over (if you feel the lust to do so).

We started the season off 3-4 on the road. We're now 4-4-1 on the road. How is that a horrible stretch? We have the best road record in the league (points wise), and we're the third best road team (points per game).

"Now he has earned an opportunity" - man, we as a fanbase called out MLSE all the time for their snap judgements in the past however we consistently raise the pitchforks prematurely.

[OgtheDim]

Every (almost) manager is fired eventually.

We should just use a VanneyCon #. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DEFCON


I'd say we are at VanneyCon 4.

[trane]

................ We started the season with SEVEN STRAIGHT ROAD MATCHES... you cannot judge a manager based on such a small sample size that is so heavily skewed against them. I talked about the fact that he's mostly been in charge of road matches and to confirm that, he's managed 24 MLS matches thus far. 58% of those matches have been on the road. He's just finally catching up to having played an equal number at home and away which is a much better sample to crucify a manager over (if you feel the lust to do so).

We started the season off 3-4 on the road. We're now 4-4-1 on the road. How is that a horrible stretch? We have the best road record in the league (points wise), and we're the third best road team (points per game).

"Now he has earned an opportunity" - man, we as a fanbase called out MLSE all the time for their snap judgements in the past however we consistently raise the pitchforks prematurely.

I will not say that your few is not valid. Clearly, it is, and right now Vanney is looking good. But road or not, I think 24 games is a fair sample size, and particularly for me, was not the record by the quality on the pitch particularly on the defensive side. Even if you consider that he was mostly on the road you would figure he would get more draws.

[barticusz]

I think we just fundamentally differ on how long a manager should be given prior to determining their fate. 24 isn't even 3/4 of a single season. If we're using that as a template to fire coaches we're never going to create any consistency.

To bring in hockey (shudder), I loved what Babcock had to say in his introduction. He talked about the need to create a state where players felt safe to do their job. There's so much media scrutiny and overreaction to everything in Toronto that it becomes impossible to achieve anything.

This is why I wanted Nelson to be given time and was upset with his firing, and also why I now will fully support giving vanney at LEAST 2 full years, but my preference would be 3. Let the team grow together, just once and then we can see how that will turn out.

[trane]

^ But too me is more then how many games, it is also what is happening on the pitch, if the manager has 10 games, they are losing 6-0 and running into one another on the pitch, particularly if there is not track record, then 10 games is more then enough. I do not see these thinks in absolute terms but examine them on a case by case bases.

But again, as I was saying at the time to just fire him when there was no quality replacement was not something worth doing.

[Ultra & Proud]

Every (almost) manager is fired eventually.

We should just use a VanneyCon #. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DEFCON


I'd say we are at VanneyCon 4.

This is good but I liked using the doomsday clock analogy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doomsday_Clock

At one point I had Vanney at 3 minutes to Midnight and I was expecting it to drop to 2 minutes after our 2 home matches but after this run of form, I would probably reset the clock to a full 5 minutes to Midnight.

All Vanney questioning was appropriate earlier. Now he has made adjustments and players are performing. Things can change but right now, he should be safe. I still however believe an Italian is lined up somewhere just waiting for the right time to step in.

[Yohan]

Scolari signs with Guangzhou evergrande. I'm not advocating firing vanney but if you have the money, you can hire a big name

[PopePouri]

No points again this weekend. Fire Vanney.

[Carts]

No points again this weekend. Fire Vanney.

LOL!!!! Well played! g:D

[trane]

No points again this weekend. Fire Vanney.

Or he did not lose so keep him.

[OgtheDim]

His tactics were a mystery to us all.

[PopePouri]

The players were completely absent.

[Oldtimer]

It's not entirely their fault, how could they win when the supporters made no noise?

[Ajax TFC]

Fucking Creavalle didn't do anything once again. But what really baffles me is his decision not to start Giovinco. He's been ace for us the last few weeks. Now he doesn't even see the pitch, and of course we didn't win

[Areathrasher]

Fucking Creavalle didn't do anything once again. But what really baffles me is his decision not to start Giovinco. He's been ace for us the last few weeks. Now he doesn't even see the pitch, and of course we didn't win

Letting Giovinvo go to the Bahamas for a few days, disgraceful stuff. #VanneyOut

[trane]

It's not entirely their fault, how could they win when the supporters made no noise?

This is one I always love.

[Detroit_TFC]

The players were completely absent.

It's like their heads were somewhere else...

[portu]

Inzaghi fired from Milan

[RedsYNWA]

11;34 PM 26' till MIDNIGHT

[trane]

^ I think it should be 11:45, he bought some time during the good run, but not that much.

[Ultra & Proud]

I still think he's safe but we just blew the easiest match of the three we have this week. If on Saturday night we're riding a 3 match losing streak on the cusp of losing players to the Gold Cup then I say the Deathwatch is back on and will be about 2 minutes to midnight.

[trane]

^ Good point.

[Ossington Mental Youth]

Glad we arent quick to throw him under the bus

[Ultra & Proud]

Glad we arent quick to throw him under the bus
Honestly his position for this season is him hanging on to the front bumper of the bus anyway. As soon as this season started he was on the deathwatch and no matter what he does he always will be. Adding in the chatter about T.L talking about Vanney's mistakes and I think his leash is a short one. I'm not even blaming him for last Saturday although he was out coached. I still put that on the officials letting the match get out of hand and become something other than football. But you can bet we will be seeing a lot of the same treatment from just about every team until we show we can match and deal with physicality and a high press and that's on Vanney and staff to prepare us for.

[OgtheDim]

Meh.......he ain't going anywhere until we are well and truly out of the playoffs.

[ag futbol]

Extrapolating too much here. Frankly I've rarely seen MLS coaches make good adjustments in game when other teams show them something entirely new.

This is the first time we've seen hack-a-gio ... Let's see if we have an answer for it next time it comes up. We adjusted after some crap performances out of the gate, let's see if we can do it here.

Don't get me wrong (I'm not exactly a vanney fan) but I'm not reading into this loss, at all.

[Areathrasher]

At the moment TFC project to 2nd in the East. Deathwatch...

http://i.imgur.com/FZbMZGf.png

[Ultra & Proud]

At the moment TFC project to 2nd in the East. Deathwatch...

http://i.imgur.com/FZbMZGf.png
Last year at this point our PPG was actually better than now and we all know how that went.

And I think people are taking the deathwatch wrong. I don't see it as us calling for his head but rather when you think management will drop the axe. Just conjecture based on results, form, and unpredictability of upper management.

[ManUtd4ever]

Despite NYC's tactics we still outplayed and outchanced them by a considerable margin. Definitely can't extrapolate much from that game.

[Ultra & Proud]

Despite NYC's tactics we still outplayed and outchanced them by a considerable margin. Definitely can't extrapolate much from that game.
I didn't and I don't. However, when we start seeing that same game plan thrown at us weekly and we will, then we better have some answers that lead to results and not just chances.

[Blizzard]

At the moment TFC project to 2nd in the East. Deathwatch...

http://i.imgur.com/FZbMZGf.png
With Mtl only point behind. Blech!

[ensco]

He's definitely going to be fired. Or quit.

[Blizzard]

He's definitely going to be fired. Or quit.

One day! Every coach is or does .... eventually.

[Ivy]

OMG we lost one game in what, 7? We're fourth in the east with games on all except mtl. Time to panic.

Sometimes I think Toronto fans want more drama, rather than team success.

[Areathrasher]

One for the experienced Italian manager camp...

Capello is supposedly getting sacked/paid off by Russia on Wednesday.

[__wowza]

Capello is supposedly getting sacked/paid off by Russia on Wednesday.

capello looks like someones disappointed dad (https://www.google.ca/search?q=fabio+capello&safe=off&espv=2&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=qV2KVeHkKIP1-QHl0aHoDA&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAg&biw=1163&bih=761).
also, i'd love to see THIS (http://cdn3.sbnation.com/imported_assets/1103367/capello.jpg) down by the beaches.


Sometimes I think Toronto fans want more drama, rather than team success.

yup. we're our own worst enemy sometimes. however, losses like this do show glaring weaknesses in our coaches abilities.
specifically this (http://matchcenter.mlssoccer.com/matchcenter/2015-06-20-toronto-fc-vs-new-york-city-fc/stats) little tidbit about our ability to cross. 38 crosses came in, roughly 1 in 4 landed, and the ones that did never looked menacing. so why was that our primary source of attack? surely vanney should've realized something was up, but maybe he was having an off game as well?

personally im not for the mentality that a win is on the players while a loss is on the coach, but that statistic and the lack of ability to adapt to meet a threat is worrisome. there's nothing stopping other teams from hitting two key points contributing to our loss:



the our over-reliance on cheyrou during high pressure situations, specifically the number of back passes he received.
doubling up on giovinco and denying him service essentially choking off a creative attack, specifically the number of times we passed it around him in a panic.

[molenshtain]

There's also no reason we can't adapt and develop our game to counteract those tactics, as we have multiple times this season.

From what I can tell, Vanney's a pretty tactically aware guy. In the game day thread I said he should have went 4-3-3 to overload their unprotected full backs. I assume he knew he could have done this, but he decided to ride out what's been working really well for us lately. That's a decision with some logic behind it, but it didn't work. He's a young coach and he still has small decisions like that to learn from.

[trane]

capello looks like someones disappointed dad (https://www.google.ca/search?q=fabio+capello&safe=off&espv=2&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=qV2KVeHkKIP1-QHl0aHoDA&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAg&biw=1163&bih=761).
also, i'd love to see THIS (http://cdn3.sbnation.com/imported_assets/1103367/capello.jpg) down by the beaches.



yup. we're our own worst enemy sometimes. however, losses like this do show glaring weaknesses in our coaches abilities.
specifically this (http://matchcenter.mlssoccer.com/matchcenter/2015-06-20-toronto-fc-vs-new-york-city-fc/stats) little tidbit about our ability to cross. 38 crosses came in, roughly 1 in 4 landed, and the ones that did never looked menacing. so why was that our primary source of attack? surely vanney should've realized something was up, but maybe he was having an off game as well?

personally im not for the mentality that a win is on the players while a loss is on the coach, but that statistic and the lack of ability to adapt to meet a threat is worrisome. there's nothing stopping other teams from hitting two key points contributing to our loss:



the our over-reliance on cheyrou during high pressure situations, specifically the number of back passes he received.
doubling up on giovinco and denying him service essentially choking off a creative attack, specifically the number of times we passed it around him in a panic.



Great points.

Looking critically at the team performance is not "panic" nor "drama". Hopefully the FO is doing the same.

[starter]

I do think that Vanney is an asset to the organization, but his appointment was political and not in the best interests of the fans. It is difficult to play shitty football with such studs as Morrow, Cherou, Bradley, Altidore and Joivinco. I believe Vanney is smart enough not to screw with the chemistry there too much. But it should have been much better. TFC still can not win games with possession, which means we are not taking advantage of our roster to dominate games. Vanney is not wise enough as a coach, and this will reflect on the team performance. While I do not think he needs to be removed now, I would not be too upset if an experienced specialist came along at any time.

[Ultra & Proud]

I still say that someday in the not too distant future we will have an Italian manager. And probably president too. And a lot more players.

By next year I think this will happen unless Vanney's TFC either wins the league/cup and he sticks or we bomb and he is sacked earlier.

[trane]

I do think that Vanney is an asset to the organization, but his appointment was political and not in the best interests of the fans. It is difficult to play shitty football with such studs as Morrow, Cherou, Bradley, Altidore and Joivinco. I believe Vanney is smart enough not to screw with the chemistry there too much. But it should have been much better. TFC still can not win games with possession, which means we are not taking advantage of our roster to dominate games. Vanney is not wise enough as a coach, and this will reflect on the team performance. While I do not think he needs to be removed now, I would not be too upset if an experienced specialist came along at any time.

This is my feeling on him as well, he seems OK not lost, but he does not seem to get the maximum out of the players, and as soon as they are a bit flat or meat a bit of an obstacle like Saturday we are fucked. Firing him for the sake of firing, makes no sense but being on the look out for a manger who can truly get everything out of this roster makes a lot of sense, and if Vanney improves greatly in the mean time; great.

[greatwhitenorf]

I still say that someday in the not too distant future we will have an Italian manager. And probably president too. And a lot more players.

By next year I think this will happen unless Vanney's TFC either wins the league/cup and he sticks or we bomb and he is sacked earlier.

Yeah. For sure.

His name will be Vanni.

[Ultra & Proud]

Yeah. For sure.

His name will be Vanni.
Don't forget who our upper management is. I stick with what I said. Unless we win hardware I think Vanney could very well get "Petke'd" so some big name manager can step in.

Not that I want it or am calling for it but it's our thing to do. Would it really be that shocking?

[molenshtain]

Petke was fired because New York decided to change the entire structure of their organization, including the duties of the HC, and he didn't meet requirements. He didn't get fired because he wasn't good enough. They've stressed that quite a bit since it happened.

Managment knows that 48-52 points and a few playoff games will satisfy most for this year. It would take like, a sixth place finish and a loss in the first round to get Vanney fired, and that is looking very unlikely with our current form.

[Fort York Redcoat]

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e8/Clock_reversed.gif

Little more time added...

[ManUtd4ever]

I love Vanney's system. It's a pleasure to watch. We have clearly been the stronger side in all of the matches we've played since the season opening road trip, even in the games we've lost.

[PopePouri]

The reality is that Vanney is staying for a while unless Bez goes.

[Oldtimer]

I do think that Vanney is an asset to the organization, but his appointment was political and not in the best interests of the fans. It is difficult to play shitty football with such studs as Morrow, Cherou, Bradley, Altidore and Joivinco. I believe Vanney is smart enough not to screw with the chemistry there too much. But it should have been much better. TFC still can not win games with possession, which means we are not taking advantage of our roster to dominate games. Vanney is not wise enough as a coach, and this will reflect on the team performance. While I do not think he needs to be removed now, I would not be too upset if an experienced specialist came along at any time.

OK, so now that TFC dominated Montreal in possession I think we can dispense with this story. Vanney hugely out-coached Klopas, his roster and tactical decisions were better in almost every way.

I see Vanney as trying tactically to emulate Kreis' successful model when he was at RSL. The real Kreis can beat him at this (and ironically he did it by playing anti-football) but I think most MLS coaches can't.

Let's stop with the double-standard that when we win it's because of the players, but when we lose it's because of the coach.

This is a team sport, and in the Montreal game really I saw the whole team, not just the stud players playing good possession football, nice triangles, playing it mostly on deck, no hoofball. It was beautiful to watch. That's entirely due to the coaching staff training the players to work well as a team.

[CBTFC]

This place is hilarious...can't believe you guys are narrowing down our coach's future to a game by game basis, lol.

This thread should be pushed off a cliff.

[trane]

^
Oldtimer,

If we come out and play similar football on Saturday, I will agree with you. Yesterdays team display was very good, and makes me think that they have turned the corner despite Saturdays loss.

But I still hope that we can find a way to win/get points, when people are bunkering down and/or we are not in top form.

CBTFC- really??? Is that what we are doing, did we miss the part of the season where we lost and lost and lost, or the previous season where we did the same? There were clear reasons to question Vanney, particularly after the shit Dallas game, were we played some of the worst defensive football I have ever seen. Now it looks like it has come together, although Saturday raised some questions.

[molenshtain]

^ If we come out and play similar football on Saturday, I will agree with you. Yesterdays team display was very good, and makes me think that they have turned the corner despite Saturdays loss.

But I still hope that we can find a way to win/get points, when people are bunkering down and/or we are not in top form.

and our 13 away points aren't indicative we can do that?

[CBTFC]

^
Oldtimer,

If we come out and play similar football on Saturday, I will agree with you. Yesterdays team display was very good, and makes me think that they have turned the corner despite Saturdays loss.

But I still hope that we can find a way to win/get points, when people are bunkering down and/or we are not in top form.

CBTFC- really??? Is that what we are doing, did we miss the part of the season where we lost and lost and lost, or the previous season where we did the same? There were clear reasons to question Vanney, particularly after the shit Dallas game, were we played some of the worst defensive football I have ever seen. Now it looks like it has come together, although Saturday raised some questions.

Every team goes through tough stretches...I wonder if other team's supporters groups have also started a deathwatch for their respective coaches after a couple of bad games.

[ManUtd4ever]

The thing is, last night's performance wasn't an anomaly. The team has had several games as of late in which our possession was strong and our attack was fluid. We have been gradually improving in that regard, which is to be expected with so many new faces in the lineup.

I think this club can still take it to another level in the second half of the season if everyone stays healthy.

[Jack]

The thing is, last night's performance wasn't an anomaly. The team has had several games as of late in which our possession was strong and our attack was fluid. We have been gradually improving in that regard, which is to be expected with so many new faces in the lineup.

I think this club can still take it to another level in the second half of the season if everyone stays healthy.
The other thing I like to see is that we actually have some guys who can come off the bench and play.

[barticusz]

@trane I'm starting to think you're the only one left that still thinks Vanney is not capable of managing this team.

An absolutely fantastic performance to win yesterday, shortly after a loss (which they also controlled the match in). TFC is the 4th best team this season based on ratings from Whoscored.

We have NEVER played the way we are playing now. The losses will come but at least we're in ever match and for the most part constantly creating chances. I feel like we can score every single time we move up the field, it's an absolute pleasure to watch this team so far this year.

[Ultra & Proud]

We still have to deal with anti-football. We solve that and then we're looking good. Also worried about a post Gold Cup hangover but that happens.

Also part of the reason we looked so good yesterday was because Montreal's tactics were shit and their refusal to alter their game plan killed them. They just gave us way too much room. When we play teams that give us space and time then we will look good and score enough to win. I worry about the teams that will crowd us and do hard presses.

[PopePouri]

^
Oldtimer,

If we come out and play similar football on Saturday, I will agree with you. Yesterdays team display was very good, and makes me think that they have turned the corner despite Saturdays loss.

But I still hope that we can find a way to win/get points, when people are bunkering down and/or we are not in top form.

CBTFC- really??? Is that what we are doing, did we miss the part of the season where we lost and lost and lost, or the previous season where we did the same? There were clear reasons to question Vanney, particularly after the shit Dallas game, were we played some of the worst defensive football I have ever seen. Now it looks like it has come together, although Saturday raised some questions.

Yes, the part of the season where we were away from home. By your standards, Sigi Schmidt's job should raise concerns as well because his away record is worse than ours. Seattle has lost his past 3 games out of 4 on the road, New England has lost the past 4 in a row, and DC has 4 points from the last 5 away games. LOL, out of 9 games, LA hasn't got a single win.

This is where we are right now:



R
Team
P
W
D
L
GF
GA
GD
Pts
Form


1
Toronto FC (http://www.whoscored.com/Teams/4186)
9
4
1
4
14
13
1
13
LLWWDW


2
Orlando City (http://www.whoscored.com/Teams/10221)
8
3
2
3
10
12
-2
11
WLLDWL


3
DC United (http://www.whoscored.com/Teams/1119)
8
3
1
4
5
7
-2
10
WLDLLW


4
New York City FC (http://www.whoscored.com/Teams/19584)
8
2
2
4
7
9
-2
8
LLLLWW


5
New England Rev. (http://www.whoscored.com/Teams/1114)
9
2
1
6
10
18
-8
7
WDLLLL


6
New York Red Bulls (http://www.whoscored.com/Teams/1121)
7
1
3
3
9
12
-3
6
WDLDLL


7
Philadelphia Union (http://www.whoscored.com/Teams/8586)
9
1
2
6
11
22
-11
5
DLLWLL


8
Montreal Impact (http://www.whoscored.com/Teams/11135)
7
1
1
5
4
14
-10
4
DLLWLL


9
Columbus Crew (http://www.whoscored.com/Teams/1113)
7
0
3
4
4
12
-8
3
DDLLDL


10
Chicago Fire (http://www.whoscored.com/Teams/1118)
7
0
2
5
6
14
-8
2
LLDDLL




We still have to deal with anti-football. We solve that and then we're looking good. Also worried about a post Gold Cup hangover but that happens.

Also part of the reason we looked so good yesterday was because Montreal's tactics were shit and their refusal to alter their game plan killed them. They just gave us way too much room. When we play teams that give us space and time then we will look good and score enough to win. I worry about the teams that will crowd us and do hard presses.

I'll out on a limb and say most teams that subscribe to a formational identity or play-style won't be highly conservative like NYC on the weekend. If the handball wasn't called, the game would have played out much differently.

[Pookie]

I won't go on an anti-MLS playoff rant but I will say that I don't get the panic when looking at the standings as a justification for Vanney's progress.

MLS Success is a two stage process.

1) Be in the top 60% of the teams in your conference

2) Win the tournament

maybe a 2b) - or at least go far in the tournament


This part of the season is about making 1) happen. It's happening. Yes, home advantage exists if you do better but let's be realistic… MLSE will sell a 6th place finish and playoff birth as a success just as much as they would sell a 1st place finish.

These games are essentially exhibition games with a little bit more on the line.

That's it. Vanney is doing fine.

As for 2)… even a top coach can lose a tournament.

If we were table focused, I'd say more of an emphasis on coaching should exist. Vanney may be terrific or he may be just good enough. Either or, it counts about the same in this current MLS format.

[Thrillos]

I don't understand the lack of faith in Vanney, especially when considering not only our current standing in the league but also the way we play.

I won't go into much detail on our current standing because, well, look at the standings and see for yourself.

Vanney is by far the best "coach" that we have ever had at TFC. BY FAR. I say coach and not manager, because as some have mentioned at times his team selections are not ideal. But hindsight is always 20/20.... Regardless, that will improve the more experience he gets with the team and as a manager in general. He is miles ahead of other managers with his level of experience.

The two things that stand out to me that are absolute game changers that Vanney can be attributed with are our players confidence on the ball and our movement OFF the ball.

This is the first season that every single player on the field, and those being subbed in, are actively looking to receive the ball. Every season prior, we have had players starting and subbing in that you could tell, would have preferred to never touch the ball during a game.

This change in confidence, sure could be attributed to the players, but you can see a change in the whole team not just our star (designated) players. This confidence with the ball is also transfers into our off the ball movement, which as mentioned is MILES ahead of where it has ever been. You can say it is triangles, or whatever, but what it boils down to is the fact that our players are constantly moving without the ball, getting into space and re-distributing it. We are making more passes, with conviction, than I have ever seen us before. The passes are smart as well, when deep we are constantly drawing opposing forwards all over the field while they try to chase the ball down. Which in turn creates space between their attackers and mids that we exploit.

I could go on and on but don't want to write a book, I easily could on how much we have improved. All the people that are still complaining about Vanney should remember the days when all anyone wished for was "to lose but at least still look good doing it" Now we are winning and looking like a top quality team while doing it!!

[trane]

The other thing I like to see is that we actually have some guys who can come off the bench and play.

Agreed.

Man u agreed

barticusx, I agree with you with the game yesterday. I do not think that Vanney is not capable of managing the team, I was concerned by the start of the season, and the game Saturday brought those concerns back.I am starting to think that we have turned the corner, and Vanney has us in the right direction.

What people seem to miss is when this thread was started.

AND yes I do think we need to get more points on the road and drop less at home. We have what it takes to dominate this league.

[Shakes McQueen]

The best thing about Giovinco is that he kind of explodes the ability of many teams to play "anti-football", because he can just take defenders apart on his own.

[ensco]

I don't really care about Vanney. He's neither good enough or bad enough to matter. I do care about Bez - I still question him as GM.

The muggings are about to start in earnest. Giovinco especially is a marked man.

This team has never, not once, been anything better than pathetic in August.

We'll know what we have then.

[Jack]

I don't really care about Vanney. He's neither good enough or bad enough to matter. I do care about Bez - I still question him as GM.

The muggings are about to start in earnest. Giovinco especially is a marked man.

This team has never, not once, been anything better than pathetic in August.

We'll know what we have then.
I could argue that this team has never played in August.

[trane]

^ This is what kind of drives my doubts, I want us to get as good and get as many points as we possibly can until then. although there are many reasons to believe that we will make it through. I think we have many more options at pretty well all positions right now.

[OgtheDim]

I look at our August schedule and see a lot of potential points.

6 games.

4 home games - 2 against Orlando, and one each against SKC and the Impact.

Away games are at NER and NYRB.

Could we slide downwards through all those 6 games given our Gold Cup guys will be back? Maybe. But, we match up well against them all I think.

[jabbronies]

I don't really care about Vanney. He's neither good enough or bad enough to matter. I do care about Bez - I still question him as GM.

The muggings are about to start in earnest. Giovinco especially is a marked man.

This team has never, not once, been anything better than pathetic in August.

We'll know what we have then.


Let's not talk about DP's
What don't you like about Bez's signings/moves?

[ensco]

Let's not talk about DP's
What don't you like about Bez's signings/moves?

Hoo boy... here we go.

The DPs are Leiweke and the owners, so I agree, they are not relevant

Findley/Cheyrou/Perquis all older guys likely to wear out or get hurt down the stretch. Only one of the 3 that has been worth the money we are likely paying (where are the 2015 MLS salaries btw?) has been Cheyrou.

We are not getting anything out of 2014 and 2015 MLS drafts, despite having had 3 top 10 picks.

He totally bungled Laba, and maybe Gilberto too.

The rest of the roster he inherited ex Morrow. Morrow is the one name he gets some credit for (although Nelsen claimed that one too)

What else is it that I should like, exactly? The fact that he let Vanney bring Delgado in? The fact that we signed an HG player (Chapman)? Where are the building blocks that he is finding, identifying, bringing in?

We can pretend these things aren't true all we want, but Bez is pretty much a joke. His mistakes have been papered over with $100M. This is not a job for kids. Bradley is the actual GM right now I'd guess.

There is a big problem here, which we give the team a free ride on. This isn't about this year's results. Where are the long term assets?

[Steve]

Let's not talk about DP's
What don't you like about Bez's signings/moves?

You know what I don't like about Bez? He needs a new tailor. Every time I see him, it looks like he's wearing his father's suit. It gives off the impression of youth and inexperience. With a better tailor, I think I would have more confidence in him.

(oh, his moves? No, those have been pretty solid)

[Areathrasher]

The draft is a crap shoot tbf.

Out of the 2014 top 10 their are two significant first team contributors (Birnbaum and Akindele). 3 if you count Hagglunds performance last year and the start of this year.

Out of the 2015 top ten there are two significant first team contributors (Larin and Polster) and 2 bit part players (Sheldon and Alashe) the rest of the top 10 are toiling in the USL. Bono was the consensus BPA when we picked at 6. Simonin was defo an off the board pick but looked like a smart one after his performance in Utah, pitty he picked up the knee injury.

I'd say we've drafted just fine tbh.

[ensco]

The draft is a crap shoot tbf.

Out of the 2014 top 10 their are two significant first team contributors (Birnbaum and Akindele). 3 if you count Hagglunds performance last year and the start of this year.

Out of the 2015 top ten there are two significant first team contributors (Larin and Polster) and 2 bit part players (Sheldon and Alashe) the rest of the top 10 are toiling in the USL. Bono was the consensus BPA when we picked at 6. Simonin was defo an off the board pick but looked like a smart one after his performance in Utah, pitty he picked up the knee injury.

I'd say we've drafted just fine tbh.

Hagglund doesn't count. Starting for a last place team, then losing 100% of your minutes, isn't that significant.

You make a good point about the crap shoot. I still think one of the three has to hit.

I made 4-5 other points, it wasn't hanging on the draft anyway.

I forgot the Oduro deal with Columbus, where Bez got fleeced, and the Warner-Issey deal, which I do like (always did).

But overall it's a poor performance.

[Phil]

Hoo boy... here we go.

The DPs are Leiweke and the owners, so I agree, they are not relevant

Findley/Cheyrou/Perquis all older guys likely to wear out or get hurt down the stretch. Only one of the 3 that has been worth the money we are likely paying (where are the 2015 MLS salaries btw?) has been Cheyrou.

We are not getting anything out of 2014 and 2015 MLS drafts, despite having had 3 top 10 picks.

He totally bungled Laba, and maybe Gilberto too.

The rest of the roster he inherited ex Morrow. Morrow is the one name he gets some credit for (although Nelsen claimed that one too)

What else is it that I should like, exactly? The fact that he let Vanney bring Delgado in? The fact that we signed an HG player (Chapman)? Where are the building blocks that he is finding, identifying, bringing in?

We can pretend these things aren't true all we want, but Bez is pretty much a joke. His mistakes have been papered over with $100M. This is not a job for kids. Bradley is the actual GM right now I'd guess.

There is a big problem here, which we give the team a free ride on. This isn't about this year's results. Where are the long term assets?
One objection I have with this is that you excuse the DP's and put that on ownership, however you hold him for the moves with Laba and Gilberto to accommodate those moves.

Can't have it both ways, if you want to withhold credit, then you have to withhold the other end to IMO.

[Areathrasher]

Hagglund doesn't count. Starting for a last place team, then losing 100% of your minutes, isn't that significant.

You make a good point about the crap shoot. I still think one of the three has to hit.

I made 4-5 other points, it wasn't hanging on the draft anyway.

I forgot the Oduro deal with Columbus, where Bez got fleeced, and the Warner-Issey deal, which I do like (always did).

But overall it's a poor performance.

Don't get me wrong, i don't think he's stellar. Compared to some other MLS GMs I think he's doing just fine.

You're forgetting getting Crevalle for the allocation order spot too.

[Thrillos]

Hagglund doesn't count. Starting for a last place team, then losing 100% of your minutes, isn't that significant.

You make a good point about the crap shoot. I still think one of the three has to hit.

I made 4-5 other points, it wasn't hanging on the draft anyway.

I forgot the Oduro deal with Columbus, where Bez got fleeced, and the Warner-Issey deal, which I do like (always did).

But overall it's a poor performance.

The Oduro deal worked out very well for us in my opinion. Essentially we got rid of Rey, and through another trade, Oduro, we picked up Warner. I much prefer Warner over Rey, while Rey was a great player with great talent, he would be lost in our current system. Every ball out wide to him he would go around 3 to 4 players and then lose beside the corner flag.

I have always though Warner was a great pick up, not sure why people are so up and down on liking/dis liking him. He is very strong on the ball and comfortable in possession. He will never be Bradley or Cheyrou, but he is a very strong MLS level deep lying midfielder. The exact type of player you need to have after your big spending Bradley/Cheyrou types.

[ensco]

The Oduro deal worked out very well for us in my opinion. Essentially we got rid of Rey, and through another trade, Oduro, we picked up Warner. I much prefer Warner over Rey, while Rey was a great player with great talent, he would be lost in our current system. Every ball out wide to him he would go around 3 to 4 players and then lose beside the corner flag.

I have always though Warner was a great pick up, not sure why people are so up and down on liking/dis liking him. He is very strong on the ball and comfortable in possession. He will never be Bradley or Cheyrou, but he is a very strong MLS level deep lying midfielder. The exact type of player you need to have after your big spending Bradley/Cheyrou types.

Post of the year.

[ensco]

One objection I have with this is that you excuse the DP's and put that on ownership, however you hold him for the moves with Laba and Gilberto to accommodate those moves.

Can't have it both ways, if you want to withhold credit, then you have to withhold the other end to IMO.

I am talking about resolving Laba (and Gilberto), not signing them. The signings belong to others.

Those resolutions were terrible (well Laba for sure, nobody knows re Gilberto, which makes you wonder)

[Areathrasher]

What's making you wonder about the Gilberto deal? It's pretty straight forward, he's on loan at Vasco for the year and they have the option to buy at the end of the year*. TFC aren't paying his wages.

Between Molinaro, Larson and the Brazilian media, all the info is out there.

* Vasco are probably going to go straight back down to Serie B so highly doubt they redeem their option.

[TheGoodson]

From all the reports I have heard it was Bez that got the ball rolling with Bradley, not Lewike...

So if you give Bez the credit for Bradley, he then must get some credit for also punting Defoe and getting Alitdore as without Bradley I highly doubt that he would have come to TFC

I agree his handling of the Laba and Gilberto was terrible, but I would still rather have Bradley and Altidore. All GM's have terrible drafts, trade etc... It just depends on if the good out weighs the bad and at this point he has built a team that IMO can compete for a title. The team has the best balance of youth with upside and savy veterans. I will take Bez's handling of the Laba and Gilberto to be where we are now compared to what we have witnessed the last 8 years

[PopePouri]

100 million on 3 players can't paper up cracks and weaknesses with rest of the team and we have decent enough options to compliment our DPs.

Our long term options including all 2015 draftees all reside with TFC 2. Something Bez can take credit for. Maybe you should watch a few of their games.

[Phil]

I am talking about resolving Laba (and Gilberto), not signing them. The signings belong to others.

Those resolutions were terrible (well Laba for sure, nobody knows re Gilberto, which makes you wonder)

I guess that's fair, but inheriting others mess then having such heavy intervention gives rise to the idea (for me at least) that he is doing the best in a pretty impossible situation given those contracts and how the MLS operates with them.

As well, there isn't any definitive proof on what happened with Laba other than speculation as the MLS won't disclose the contract details. Laba's contract was a huge fucking mess, he wasn't supposed to be a DP and Payne ended up fubbing it so badly that the only way to actually get him here was to load the contract in with the transfer fee. The fact that Bez had to find some other team willing to eat that so we could fit in Bradley....seems unnecessarily harsh on that one to me.

I do agree with your overall point of evaluating with Bez has done though, no dispute there. It deserves to be looked at closely. As far as what signings belong to whom (between Bez and Ryan) I don't think we know enough to make those calls. Ryan brought in Defoe and sold him as the solution to TFC's woes then tried to smuggle him out to the detriment of the club. I blame the organization (or lack thereof) for not letting GM's do their jobs at TFC.

[PopePouri]

I do agree with your overall point of evaluating with Bez has done though, no dispute there. It deserves to be looked at closely. As far as what signings belong to whom (between Bez and Ryan) I don't think we know enough to make those calls. Ryan brought in Defoe and sold him as the solution to TFC's woes then tried to smuggle him out to the detriment of the club. I blame the organization (or lack thereof) for not letting GM's do their jobs at TFC.

That should go on Lieweke. Bez was forced to play nice with someone with different philosophies.

[Fort York Redcoat]

The Oduro deal worked out very well for us in my opinion. Essentially we got rid of Rey, and through another trade, Oduro, we picked up Warner. I much prefer Warner over Rey, while Rey was a great player with great talent, he would be lost in our current system. Every ball out wide to him he would go around 3 to 4 players and then lose beside the corner flag.

I have always though Warner was a great pick up, not sure why people are so up and down on liking/dis liking him. He is very strong on the ball and comfortable in possession. He will never be Bradley or Cheyrou, but he is a very strong MLS level deep lying midfielder. The exact type of player you need to have after your big spending Bradley/Cheyrou types.

Issey. That's the only reason I dislike Warner. Everything positive he does for our team this year is a plus since Issey is back in Asia but it doesn't change how much I wanted that to work.

[Jack]

Issey. That's the only reason I dislike Warner. Everything positive he does for our team this year is a plus since Issey is back in Asia but it doesn't change how much I wanted that to work.
What was the final story there? Something not working in the locker room, or just that we needed a more central player?

[Blizzard]

Issey. That's the only reason I dislike Warner. Everything positive he does for our team this year is a plus since Issey is back in Asia but it doesn't change how much I wanted that to work.

My sentiments exactly. It was wonderful to have another Cdn international on the squad and he did well in his brief time here. He'd become a supporter's favourite and while I do recognize Warner's capabilities and am not as dismissive of the man as others, I'd still rather have Issey on the squad.

[Fort York Redcoat]

What was the final story there? Something not working in the locker room, or just that we needed a more central player?

It was a locker room story that disappoints me as a fan of both country and club. I don't have specifics but one can look at his career movement and his response to his release here and come to their own fair conclusions.

[ensco]

A problem with the Laba/Gilberto situations is that the transparency is so poor that we don't have any way of really knowing what the alternatives were.

But we are getting smoked in the young talent ID department (most painfully by the Whitecaps)

re TFC 2, that is a positive, sure. A small positive

[Phil]

What was the final story there? Something not working in the locker room, or just that we needed a more central player?

There were some issues, but I think most of them weren't too serious.

Montreal simply made Warner available and he was someone management really rated and wanted. I can also guess (*wink wink) that Warner is one of the most asked about players for trades. I would have loved to see Issey remain here and make an impact but that's sports I guess.

[jloome]

Issey. That's the only reason I dislike Warner. Everything positive he does for our team this year is a plus since Issey is back in Asia but it doesn't change how much I wanted that to work.

It's hardly the first time a guy who doesn't fit the normal mould has bounced around. He's artistic, critical, likes discussing social development and meta issues. Guys like that (from Jim Bouton on) often bounce because coaches and players assume they wont' "fit in" or be part of the group. I thought the same might have been true with Soolsma until it was suggested it was disciplinary issues with him.

[ensco]

I think the national team thing way overwhelmed the reality of the value of Issey (for maybe the 7th time here)

It's not a bad thing that Altidore and Bradley play in Canada, from that POV.

[Fort York Redcoat]

It's hardly the first time a guy who doesn't fit the normal mould has bounced around. He's artistic, critical, likes discussing social development and meta issues. Guys like that (from Jim Bouton on) often bounce because coaches and players assume they wont' "fit in" or be part of the group. I thought the same might have been true with Soolsma until it was suggested it was disciplinary issues with him.

Right but I didn't follow Soolsma on the Canada squad. Just sorry it didn't work out and try not to make direct comparisons to Warner. Very different players for different roles.

[Fort York Redcoat]

I think the national team thing way overwhelmed the reality of the value of Issey (for maybe the 7th time here)

It's not a bad thing that Altidore and Bradley play in Canada, from that POV.

I won't apologize for answering the question from Jack but I'll say that (to get back to topic) the Issey trade was one that had to be made and reflects well on management, whoever made that call.

[Blizzard]

It's hardly the first time a guy who doesn't fit the normal mould has bounced around. He's artistic, critical, likes discussing social development and meta issues. Guys like that (from Jim Bouton on) often bounce because coaches and players assume they wont' "fit in" or be part of the group. I thought the same might have been true with Soolsma until it was suggested it was disciplinary issues with him.

Ah yes Jim Bouton. Ball Four is one of the great sports books of all time.

Apparently Soolsma also had a bit of a problem with the bottle. It's unfortunate as I was a fan.

[Thrillos]

I thought Issey was a quality player, but again, one of his faults was that he NEVER tracked back. And as you can see in our current system, our "wide" midfielders are actually defending deep in our own corner flags - which i absolutely love. I wouldn't have kept Issey for that reason alone, but I also remember hearing many rumblings about his locker room issues as well, which makes his trade a no-brainer.

The fact that he didn't last at Montreal as well is a good sign that we made the right decision.

We are finally a team that makes a trade for a player and a year later he is still with our team. While the player we sent packing disappears a year later from either his new team or MLS or even the sport in general.

The fact is, since Bez came in, this is the first time in our history this trend has completely reversed. This is why I am happy with Bez.

[barticusz]

Not sure what all these numbers mean but if anyone likes number representations of teams (stats), check out squawka.

http://www.squawka.com/teams/toronto-fc/stats#performance-score#us-major-league-soccer#season-2015/2016#149#all-matches#1-14#by-match

Show's TFC's performances throughout the year, what is really interesting is how we're consistently averaging a performance score of 221 per game since the Orlando win. Currently Sporting KC has the best performance score throughout the year at 212 per game.

Over the course of the year we're the third best team in the league based on these measures.

http://www.squawka.com/football-team-rankings#performance-score#team-stats#us-major-league-soccer|season-2015/2016#0#90#any#any#season#1#all-matches#total#desc#avg

Just a different perspective when looking at the Vanney Deathwatch, that's all.

[notthesun]

One thing I have never liked and will never like when discussing management is trying to pin certain moves on certain guys. When you're the GM, you're judged on the players you acquire, all of them. Yes other front office members will influence or even push decisions one way (as with most teams in most sports) but at the end of the day it's the GM's responsibility so he takes the credit and the blame. I don't like this talk of saying someone is a Vanney signing or Nelsen signing or even a Leiweke signing. When Bez leaves this team, whenever that is, I'm not going to gloss over the DP signings because they have Leiweke's fingerprints on them or ignore loaning in Julio Cesar and Bradley Orr because Nelsen wanted them. If you want to spread the responsibility to other guys that's fine (and often appropriate), but don't pretend that it all doesn't come down to Bez when all is said and done.

Bez has been hit and miss. He's assembled a squad that's doing pretty well right now, with some expensive players and some not so expensive (I didn't see any mention of Zavaleta by the way - Bez got him for the equivalent of a bag of balls). Our team composition 2 or 3 years down the line remains to be seen, and I would agree it's a mild concern. But overall, he's doing an adequate job so far. You want bad? Look at Philly.

[Auzzy]

Not sure what all these numbers mean but if anyone likes number representations of teams (stats), check out squawka.

http://www.squawka.com/teams/toronto-fc/stats#performance-score#us-major-league-soccer#season-2015/2016#149#all-matches#1-14#by-match

Show's TFC's performances throughout the year, what is really interesting is how we're consistently averaging a performance score of 221 per game since the Orlando win. Currently Sporting KC has the best performance score throughout the year at 212 per game.

Over the course of the year we're the third best team in the league based on these measures.

http://www.squawka.com/football-team-rankings#performance-score#team-stats#us-major-league-soccer|season-2015/2016#0#90#any#any#season#1#all-matches#total#desc#avg

Just a different perspective when looking at the Vanney Deathwatch, that's all.

Oh look at that first link, the "bum" Osorio with the highest pass completion ratio, at 88%... :facepalm:

[barticusz]

Oh look at that first link, the "bum" Osorio with the highest pass completion ratio, at 88%... :facepalm:

http://www.reddit.com/r/tfc/comments/3b7xxz/tfc_player_rankings_week_17/

He may complete a lot of passes but he's been disappointing otherwise this year.

[Auzzy]

http://www.reddit.com/r/tfc/comments/3b7xxz/tfc_player_rankings_week_17/

He may complete a lot of passes but he's been disappointing otherwise this year.

John Molinaro begs to differ... http://www.sportsnet.ca/soccer/mls-major-league-soccer-jonathan-osorio-tfc-toronto-fc-greg-vanney-gold-cup-canada/

[ManUtd4ever]

Osorio has been solid in terms of his vision and creativity. His only glaring weakness has been his inability to finish his scoring opportunities.

[PopePouri]

He's invaluable for our play style. A good comparison is Ned Grabavoy who won't get much goals or assists but is a possession sink in the final third.

[molenshtain]

Osorio is more talented than Grabavoy. Grabavoy probably runs more though.

[barticusz]

Osorio is no doubt doing better but it's taken him some time to get involved. Here's hoping he continues his solid play and picks up some minutes at the Gold Cup. But let's not go overboard and call him invaluable to our team. Delgado, Warner, hell even Chapman could largely play that possession first style if he was injured. He needs to continue pressing forward as he has in recent games and create even more opportunities.

[PopePouri]

Osorio is no doubt doing better but it's taken him some time to get involved. Here's hoping he continues his solid play and picks up some minutes at the Gold Cup. But let's not go overboard and call him invaluable to our team. Delgado, Warner, hell even Chapman could largely play that possession first style if he was injured. He needs to continue pressing forward as he has in recent games and create even more opportunities.

Shuttlers aren't like for like replacements. Playing a much defensive minded Warner on the right is balanced with a more attacking left sided player on the left. The obvious replacement for Chapman but he does not provide the same level of creativity based on his appearances with TFC II. Have to see more of Delgado to understand his strengths/weaknesses but from the one game, he possesses the ball well but like Chapman, can't see the final pass.

[Blowing Bubbles]

I'm not going to complain. After what 8 years we're finally playing the type of soccer that I like to see.

It was great to be there on Weds and watch us move the ball on the ground right through the middle of park, and intelligently mix up short passes and Bradley 40 yard through balls. :drum: The days of shit on a stick football are over.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CIaN8mBUsAAjoFB.png



source of data: https://twitter.com/atosoccer/status/614334471756578816


(https://twitter.com/atosoccer/status/614334471756578816)EDIT - lol Crew. Also thank Fuck Owen Coyle isn't our manager. 44fucking2 put it in the mixer boys. http://forums.redpatchboys.ca/images/smilies/facepalm.gif (https://twitter.com/atosoccer/status/614334471756578816)
(https://twitter.com/atosoccer/status/614334471756578816)

[stevep]

Meh.......he ain't going anywhere until we are well and truly out of the playoffs.


a win saturday and tfc getting in the playoffs is 98%, today we are at 95%

do you know hard it would be to screw up 95% probability??

http://www.sportsclubstats.com/USA/TorontoFC.html

[PopePouri]

a win saturday and tfc getting in the playoffs is 98%, today we are at 95%

do you know hard it would be to screw up 95% probability??

http://www.sportsclubstats.com/USA/TorontoFC.html

We we did it last year.

[notthesun]

http://www.reddit.com/r/tfc/comments/3b7xxz/tfc_player_rankings_week_17/

He may complete a lot of passes but he's been disappointing otherwise this year.

I'm a big fan of sites like WhoScored and Squawka, but not everything they do is bulletproof. They're great for measuring and comparing objective statistics that you don't usually get from broadcasts (e.g. shot attempts, key passes, interceptions, clearances, etc.) but some things they track and produce should be taken with a grain of salt. For example, one of the statistics tracked on the offensive side is dribbles (beating a player on the dribble). How is WhoScored (or Opta, technically) tracking that? What constitutes a dribble and what doesn't? Because apparently Giovinco is averaging only 1.5 dribbles per game this season, which is simply preposterous having watched him so far this season. Same goes for unsuccessful touches: often hard to say when a touch was bad or when a pass was difficult to take.

http://www.whoscored.com/Explanations

That's WhoScored's explanation of their ratings. Obviously, they come nowhere close to explaining how much weight is given to which statistics under which circumstances. It's hard to place much value on an overall rating when you have no idea how it's calculated. The nature of the game really doesn't lend itself well to ratings systems that try to quantify many things at once. Baseball is more measurable, basketball is more structured, even hockey, for all it's free-flowing style at times, has identifiable zones and far less players (hence, variables) involved. The overall ratings are interesting and there is obviously a correlation between them and good players, but I wouldn't use them as concrete evidence for evaluating a guy.

I much prefer these sites as tools to compare players in specific stats as well as tracking their progression. In Osorio's case, he was 13th in passing percentage in his rookie season, 10th in 2014, and is currently 7th, with his percentage rising year-over-year. And he's not playing safer: his key passes per game has also risen year-over-year. Good trends which fall in line with the role we want him to play in the team.

[Alonso]

Osorio has been solid in terms of his vision and creativity. His only glaring weakness has been his inability to finish his scoring opportunities.


And this hasn't been a problem in the past for him so I expect that to correct itself with time.

Osorio is the real deal people.

He will develop into a corner stone for this team and hopefully for the national team to.

[Ultra & Proud]

And this hasn't been a problem in the past for him so I expect that to correct itself with time.

Osorio is the real deal people.

He will develop into a corner stone for this team and hopefully for the national team to.
That's all that he needs to get a handle on and I think he will. People forget that despite his experience here, he's really still a kid.

[trane]

I think the present management has put by far the best roster we have had, it is not perfect and some of the non dp signing have been older players but they have all been good, and while we will be put under pressure when Bradley and Jozy go off to the gold cup, I still think that we have more then enough to pick up enough points to stay in the contention. BUT we will have to be organized and defensively sharp, this is were Vanney's ability will be tested (the more points we pick up now the better).

[trane]

I was going to stay away from this, but what I posted last holds true, this is were Vanney is tested. Clearly the first game was not in his favour. We will see New York. Still think we should have picked up more point before this.

Still puzzled as to how good we can look when everyone is off, and then how awful we can look defensively.

[Fort York Redcoat]

I was going to stay away from this, but what I posted last holds true, this is were Vanney is tested. Clearly the first game was not in his favour. We will see New York. Still think we should have picked up more point before this.

Still puzzled as to how good we can look when everyone is off, and then how awful we can look defensively.

Meanwhile Bradley's effort was okay for the US and Altidore was uninspiring last night in Chicago. Well at least they aren't hurt or too tired yet.

[Richard]

I was starting to like Vanney but then he keeps playing Creavalle, I'm sorry but you got some talent evaluation issues if you cant see that Creavalle isn't good enough.

No point in a firing now, but this has to make people wonder about what's going on in his head.

[ag futbol]

This was not a good showing for vanney. Not firing line worthy but it raises some questions.

[notthesun]

Subbing Creavalle in at RB was just a complete joke of a decision. Makes Benito Floro's decisions at the Gold Cup look genius.

He keeps playing him there over and over and he keeps costing us goals over, and over, and over... toddlers learn lessons quicker than Vanney seems to be capable of on this particular issue.

[Redcoe15]

I would like to make something perfectly clear to Greg Vanney:

DO NOT PUT CREAVALLE OUT ONTO THE PITCH UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCE!!! UNDERSTAND?!! THAT GUY COST US POINTS LATE IN THE GAME AND DULLED A SUPERHUMAN PERFORMNCE BY NUMBER TEN, GIO!!! JUST WHAT THE FUCK WAS GOING THROUGH THAT PEA SIZED BRAIN OF YOURS WHEN YOU PUT HIM OUT THERE?!! HUH?????!!!!!!!!!!

[Ossington Mental Youth]

Hes fine at mid but definitely agree he is far from a fullback and shouldnt ever play there

[barticusz]

Confirmed. Sack Vanney for Mourinho.

https://twitter.com/ChelseaFC/status/623544706849472512

"Jose says he would consider managing in the MLS one day, but not now. He would 'like to contribute to a fantastic country'. #CFCTour (https://twitter.com/hashtag/CFCTour?src=hash)"

[ensco]

^He wants the LA job someday, he has virtually said so before. He has taken his teams to train in LA something like 8 of the 12 years he has been a top flight manager (weirdly they are in Montreal this year)

[trane]

My problem with Vanney is this, yes going forward and in possession we look much better then we ever had, and yes despite the talent I have to give a lot of credit to Vanney. But defensively we continue to be the same old tfc. Not all the time but too often. Scoring 3 on the road and coming back with only one point is ridiculous.

From what I saw, ( I did not see the third goal I was pulled away for about 20 minutes) these were not individual mistakes, but on the first, the defenders and they were plenty there were simply not aggresive enough and static as a group, and on the second, there was just to much room given in front of the box. Too me we need to be more compact and intelegently aggresive when we do not have the ball. Vanney is having us attack and pressure high, but it is creating spave between the mids and the back line, and it is making vulnerable behind.

I like the 3 at the back, but then two DMs have to sit in positions which then allows for defensive cover and help

[Ajax TFC]

One thing I like about Vanney is that he's neither married to a system, nor does he make whole sale changes in a desperate attempt to find something that works. He sees what isn't working and what is and he tweaks his system until it runs properly. Like the last game where most were calling for wholesale changes to the setup, he stuck with the game plan, regrouped at halftime, and got the point.

[Detroit_TFC]

Guess it's time to fire this up again.

[Detroit_TFC]

Ole Gunnar Solskjær rumor may be regarding team president rather than coach, per Duane R.

[Ultra & Proud]

No to Ole Gunnar as manager, that's for sure. Not sure for president either. Or anything.

[Ossington Mental Youth]

No to Ole Gunnar as manager, that's for sure. Not sure for president either. Or anything.

yeah not sure this makes sense to me either

[Detroit_TFC]

No to Ole Gunnar as manager, that's for sure. Not sure for president either. Or anything.

Yeah, it's a head scratcher, given all the talk about bringing in a top soccer executive for that role.

[TFC07]

Solskjaer to TFC?

http://www.dagbladet.no/2015/08/04/sport/fotball/ole_gunnar_solskjer/toronto_fc/cardiff/40465965/


Dagbladet): Sources informs Dagbladet that Ole Gunnar Solskjaer (42) is in negotiations with MLS club Toronto FC on the job as the team's new manager.Solskjaer agent, Jim Solbakken, confirming the news. - Yeah, Bundesliga reply to Dagbladet questions about the ongoing talks between the parties.

[Ultra & Proud]

Yeah, it's a head scratcher, given all the talk about bringing in a top soccer executive for that role.
But it does fit in our hiring practice of getting guys with zero experience.

[Ultra & Proud]

Bring on the Norwegian Experiment :facepalm:

[Suds]

But it does fit in our hiring practice of getting guys with zero experience.


hahahahaa!! actually, not funny at all ... there is not a thing that would surprise anyone around here

[portu]

whatever if it happens it happens I've reached a point of apathy towards this whole Sack Vanney phenomena

[TFC07]

But it does fit in our hiring practice of getting guys with zero experience.

Actually Solskjaer does have experience managing.



Teams managed


2008–2011
Manchester United Reserves (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manchester_United_F.C._Reserves_and_Academy)


2011–2014
Molde (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molde_FK)


2014
Cardiff City (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardiff_City_F.C.)


2015–
Toronto FC (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toronto_FC)

[Ultra & Proud]

Actually Solskjaer does have experience managing.



Teams managed


2008–2011
Manchester United Reserves (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manchester_United_F.C._Reserves_and_Academy)


2011–2014
Molde (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molde_FK)


2014
Cardiff City (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardiff_City_F.C.)


2015–
Toronto FC (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toronto_FC)



But they supposedly want him for president.

[portu]

Actually Solskjaer does have experience managing.



Teams managed


2008–2011
Manchester United Reserves (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manchester_United_F.C._Reserves_and_Academy)


2011–2014
Molde (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molde_FK)


2014
Cardiff City (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardiff_City_F.C.)


2015–
Toronto FC (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toronto_FC)



This would be the first decently experience manager we've ever had

[TFC07]

But they supposedly want him for president.

According the link I posted, Solskjaer is negotiating for manager (as a head coach) position.

[Ultra & Proud]

According the link I posted, Solskjaer is negotiating for manager (as a head coach) position.
Word from our beat guys is that it's 100% not for manager but president and that talks aren't that far along. But they must be there.....

[Ultra & Proud]

Stolen from Twitter but Fjord Nation.

[Areathrasher]

I smell bollocks tbf. Shouldn't we be run by Bettega/Gandini/Gattuso by now???

[Ultra & Proud]

I smell bollocks tbf. Shouldn't we be run by Bettega/Gandini/Gattuso by now???
Let's just hope it's a rumor.

With the season getting in the stretch drive you would think they'd want a president in place before the off season starts though.

[Areathrasher]

From Rollins...

However, the reports aren’t completely wrong. Solskjær has been in Toronto talking to MLSE – for the currently non-existent Club President role. MLSE likes having that extra layer of management and they’ve been searching for a President since Tim Leiweke took a step back a year ago or so.

Today’s reports suggested that Solskjær’s hiring was imminent. CSN was told that such reports were exaggerated – that they will be making a hire and it might be Solskjær, but that he’s just one name among others like it that’s being considered.

[TFC07]

From Rollins...

However, the reports aren’t completely wrong. Solskjær has been in Toronto talking to MLSE – for the currently non-existent Club President role. MLSE likes having that extra layer of management and they’ve been searching for a President since Tim Leiweke took a step back a year ago or so.

Today’s reports suggested that Solskjær’s hiring was imminent. CSN was told that such reports were exaggerated – that they will be making a hire and it might be Solskjær, but that he’s just one name among others like it that’s being considered.

I hope this is case. I personally hope MLSE can find better President than Solskjaer.

[Detroit_TFC]

I'm not smart enough to use the new tweet tags but https://twitter.com/RonWaxman/status/628686930172092416

Ron Waxman laughs at the Solskjaer rumor.

[notthesun]

Vanney's not going anywhere this season.

Solskjaer as President could be possible though.

[Red CB Toronto]

Ron Waxman is simply one of the best in the biz, he knows what he is talking about and is well connected.

[portu]

It would be weird if our president was a better coach than our current one

[Blixa]

That would be funny indeed.

[OgtheDim]

Agent in Europe uses TFC as leverage.

Quelle Surprise.

[Detroit_TFC]

Agent in Europe uses TFC as leverage.

Quelle Surprise.

Still getting used to TFC's new worldwide celebrity status.

[pdubs]

The original tweet that Waxman was responding too has been deleted. So Waxman calls BS and it looks like it to be the case?

https://twitter.com/janaagefjortoft/status/628666170183405568

[Ajax TFC]

I've always felt that the president should be someone who has an understanding of North American sports, and NA soccer. I think understanding how things work here in NA is at least as valuable as understanding the game itself. There's so much weird stuff that happens in MLS that doesn't happen in Europe, and teams are structured completely differently. I'm not confident in handing the keys to the entire club to someone who isn't familiar with the way things run here.

[Ultra & Proud]

I've always felt that the president should be someone who has an understanding of North American sports, and NA soccer. I think understanding how things work here in NA is at least as valuable as understanding the game itself. There's so much weird stuff that happens in MLS that doesn't happen in Europe, and teams are structured completely differently. I'm not confident in handing the keys to the entire club to someone who isn't familiar with the way things run here.

Yes and no I say. Depends on what they want. If they do intend to run it like the set-up the Leafs have, with an expanded back room staff, then it could work. You'd have a European as the President, Bez as GM, and then Vanney as manager with maybe some consultants or whatnot tossed in from the Prez. It could work but it is a lot of chefs in the kitchen.

[C.Ronaldo]

Yes and no I say. Depends on what they want. If they do intend to run it like the set-up the Leafs have, with an expanded back room staff, then it could work. You'd have a European as the President, Bez as GM, and then Vanney as manager with maybe some consultants or whatnot tossed in from the Prez. It could work but it is a lot of chefs in the kitchen.

agreed, Bez would be what regualr offices call the compliance team.

A good prez would learn those special rules really quickly and have the right ppl in place to keep him within the rules

[billyfly]

Oh here it is

[Richard]

5 games in a row of letting 3 or more goals in, that's not even going to let us limp into the playoffs if that sustains, I saw nothing today to see that stopping.

Vanney should be given the rest of season, but we've got make a serious decision regarding coach and GM at the end of the season.

[billyfly]

Lamoriello behind the bench!

[portu]

Lamoriello behind the bench!
I love you

[pdubs]

Legit questions should be asked. I am been more of a wait and see with Vanney. If we don't have a better replacement lined up then change for changes sake probably not the best.

We knew the Red Bulls strength and they exploited them. Didn't shift tactics and waited to change personnel to late. I think this team has talent but when the manager isn't setting up the team for success then idk. Diamond works great against certain teams depending on how they play. Today Vanney got out matched but we all knew the Red Bulls strategy which makes this hard to take.

[Marc"2L"]

Hello darkness my old friend.

the Avatar stays until we have the same coach and above for two years.

[ManUtd4ever]

5 games in a row of letting 3 or more goals in, that's not even going to let us limp into the playoffs if that sustains, I saw nothing today to see that stopping.

Vanney should be given the rest of season, but we've got make a serious decision regarding coach and GM at the end of the season.

I'm not defending Vanney because he definitely has to shoulder part of the blame, but it's not a coincidence that Bendik has been in goal in all those games. When your keeper is routinely giving up 1-2 soft goals every game, it's very difficult to overcome regardless of tactics and execution.

[notthesun]

It's quite clear Vanney cannot organize a defense. No, we haven't added the right players back there, but other MLS teams regularly do more with less, or just as little. Red Bulls themselves were short 3 defenders today, but you couldn't tell.

It's too late to make a coaching change though. Bez could never justify making two late season changes in a row, and who would even replace Vanney? A coaching change would only make things worse at this point. I'm not advocating Vanney needs to be gone or that we need to keep him, but now is very much the wrong time.

[Richard]

I would like to see our shots against total and a comparison to other teams, I couldn't find a site that had that.

Bendik is average for sure, but its not all on him, the midfield and defense have not helped him nearly enough.

[portu]

I'm not defending Vanney because he definitely has to shoulder part of the blame, but it's not a coincidence that Bendik has been in goal in all those games. When your keeper is routinely giving up 1-2 soft goals every game, it's very difficult to overcome regardless of tactics and execution.
Thing is keeping is only a small part o father problem when you're consistently losing games with 3+ goals against

[OgtheDim]

I would put this more on Bez then Vanney, to be honest. Great at getting offence, but can't seem to find defence, or wide players.

Vanney's biggest mistakes this season? Thinking Creavalle could be a RB & thinking Findley could contribute.

The measure of him will be how he adjusts now that it is painfully obvious that the diamond midfield is not going to work, even if it does fit our team's strengths best.

Somebody is going to have to play in a position he doesn't like. Altidore or Cheyrou or Bradley or Giovinco. Cause, right now, those four can't play as the spine given how lacking this team is in width. That's assuming that Delgado and Chapman and Osorio can't play wide. Lovitz is a natural winger who wants to stay outside - the only one on the team - but the brain trust doesn't trust him. Jackson likewise is a natural winger, but he likes to come inside. Nail him to the sideline? Maybe.


What might work? Altidore out left and Gomez out right and GIovinco in the middle of a 4-3-3 with Bradley Osorio and Cheyrou. But, for that to happen, this braintrust has to trust our FB's - not sure they do.


If Vanney persits with the diamond against Montreal and Seattle (it will probably do well against Orlando), then its only a matter if we can somehow limp into the playoffs.

We make the playoffs, Vanney stays for next season and we live to fight again.

We don't, he's gone. That's still the yardstick. He's not gone before that happens.

[molenshtain]

I would put this more on Bez then Vanney, to be honest. Great at getting offence, but can't seem to find defence, or wide players.

Vanney's biggest mistakes this season? Thinking Creavalle could be a RB & thinking Findley could contribute.

The measure of him will be how he adjusts now that it is painfully obvious that the diamond midfield is not going to work, even if it does fit our team's strengths best.

Somebody is going to have to play in a position he doesn't like. Altidore or Cheyrou or Bradley or Giovinco. Cause, right now, those four can't play as the spine given how lacking this team is in width. That's assuming that Delgado and Chapman and Osorio can't play wide. Lovitz is a natural winger who wants to stay outside - the only one on the team - but the brain trust doesn't trust him. Jackson likewise is a natural winger, but he likes to come inside. Nail him to the sideline? Maybe.


What might work? Altidore out left and Gomez out right and GIovinco in the middle of a 4-3-3 with Bradley Osorio and Cheyrou. But, for that to happen, this braintrust has to trust our FB's - not sure they do.


If Vanney persits with the diamond against Montreal and Seattle (it will probably do well against Orlando), then its only a matter if we can somehow limp into the playoffs.

We make the playoffs, Vanney stays for next season and we live to fight again.

We don't, he's gone. That's still the yardstick. He's not gone before that happens.


yeah this is pretty much it.

Only thing is I think it'd be easier to play Seba and Gomez/Delgado/Chapman or whatever as the wide players and Jozy as the lone forward. Puts seba further away from goal but adds more creativity and dynamism in the midfield and puts Jozy up top alone like he likes to be. I think Vanney will figure out this needs to be done come the end of the season.

[ManUtd4ever]

We have Lovitz, Gomez, and Jackson that can play wide. Adjustments can be made.

[ensco]

We should wait until year end.

Late season firings rarely work.

[PopePouri]

I would put this more on Bez then Vanney, to be honest. Great at getting offence, but can't seem to find defence, or wide players.

Vanney's biggest mistakes this season? Thinking Creavalle could be a RB & thinking Findley could contribute.

The measure of him will be how he adjusts now that it is painfully obvious that the diamond midfield is not going to work, even if it does fit our team's strengths best.

Somebody is going to have to play in a position he doesn't like. Altidore or Cheyrou or Bradley or Giovinco. Cause, right now, those four can't play as the spine given how lacking this team is in width. That's assuming that Delgado and Chapman and Osorio can't play wide. Lovitz is a natural winger who wants to stay outside - the only one on the team - but the brain trust doesn't trust him. Jackson likewise is a natural winger, but he likes to come inside. Nail him to the sideline? Maybe.


What might work? Altidore out left and Gomez out right and GIovinco in the middle of a 4-3-3 with Bradley Osorio and Cheyrou. But, for that to happen, this braintrust has to trust our FB's - not sure they do.


If Vanney persits with the diamond against Montreal and Seattle (it will probably do well against Orlando), then its only a matter if we can somehow limp into the playoffs.

We make the playoffs, Vanney stays for next season and we live to fight again.

We don't, he's gone. That's still the yardstick. He's not gone before that happens.

I was thinking about this now that I'm not as emotional. I think Creavalle and Findley contribute more if Vanney persisted with the 4-2-3-1 he preached in preseason. Creavalle failed because of the pressure that the diamond has on fullbacks and Findley isn't contributing because he's not a finisher. Out wide, he could have done well as a field stretching midfielder and as a balance to Oso on the other flank.

So Vanney scraps his original go-to system in preseason, plays a 4-3-3, essentially playing Altidore out of position so now we're not getting the best of him. Bradley plays as a no.6 and we're not getting the best of him because he needs a more disciplined midfielder next to him if he plays deep. We also get overloaded on the flanks and lose games.

We then go to a flat 4-4-2, but then we lose the battle of the midfield and possession. Seba stays high and Altidore has to do the running and drop into midfield. That works for a few games, then we move to the diamond we have now, a different formational identity to what I think Vanney had in mind. We've won a few games but the balance is screwed up because now we have all 3 DPs sitting high up the pitch. A lot of pressure in on Cheyrou at the no. 6 role and we've seen what happens when he's not there.

We now see the blessings and curses of playing Giovinco. Obviously he's the best attacker in the league but sadly he's not a system player. Vanney mentioned something about his ability to play a lot because of "his movement is very efficient". That's also code for that he doesn't defend. When we have 5"4 striker who won't defend, we're limited to how many systems we can play and most of them are two striker systems. That also means, we will at times lose the midfield battle because we're simply out-numbered in the middle of the park.

So if we make the playoffs and I think we will, it will be because of Giovinco and only him. But, I'm not sure that's a good thing because the amount of sacrifices Vanney and other players have to make.

I might sound crazy for criticising Seba here but he's also part of the problem for our defensive woes. That falls back on Bez and Lieweke.

[ensco]

We are definitely getting an education in the perils of building a team with galacticos and without balance.

[Ultra & Proud]

A better manager could get results with what we have. This isn't like the 2013 team here. Lots of teams have uneven squads and players who don't defend. Even NYRB managed a clean sheet with a makeshift back line and Robles in goal against us. Honestly, since Seba goes rogue a lot and we have solid attacking players, we could and should have a more staunch, counter attacking set up in our back pocket for tricky fixtures. Especially in environments were wins are hard to come by. At least give us a chance to nip a tie and maybe a win if we confound the opposition with something unexpected. A little tactical flexibility would go a long way. It's not like MLS players are all students of the game, you throw them a curve ball and more often than not, they'll crumble. Of course you focus on 'your game' like Vanney always says but having a set up that covers the back and allows you to prevent goals at least at certain times should have been done. As it is, all our problem areas tactically, are left unaddressed. Sure the personnel isn't perfect but not every teams is. LA has 4 DPs and they have some so-so players filling out the squad and their depth is shit but they succeed, why? They succeed because they have a good set up, a decent plan, and they also adapt. We don't, can't, or won't.


But instead we'll do the same things next week and going forward, say that we need to play our game and limit mistakes, we won't do it consistently and at best we'll squeak into 6th and get our asses handed to us from there. And we'll start Bendik all the way to the end and he will allow at least another 5 bad goals and another 3-4 that probably would have been stopped if his positioning was better. He will not get another clean sheet this season.

[trane]

^ I am not going to say much more. Vanney cannot not get this team to defend well enough. He has to be let go. We have looked good going forward but if we cannot defend we cannot win. We have a talented team by MLS standards, sure it is far from perfect, but we should be doing much better then we are, Vanney has been given a chance he is blowing it. There is enough of the season left that it can be salvaged, but only if we have the right manager to come in.


I agree that Bendik shuold not be the first choice keeper. We were better with Konopke

[ensco]

^ I am not going to say much more. Vanney cannot not get this team to defend well enough. He has to be let go....There is enough of the season left that it can be salvaged, but only if we have the right manager to come in.


Sure Vanney is useless. But who do you think we are going to get now that the world football calendar has started?

I'd rather bet on the Avram Grant model - the players should just start ignoring him, Bradley needs to take this on.

[portu]

Is Donadoni still available?

[Initial B]

Is Klopp still available?

[Areathrasher]

Miguel Herrera

[ensco]

Cmon guys, none of these names is coming here unless he gets to rip the roster apart. Bez would have to be fired (or neutralized) as part of a hire like that.

Are we really making that call midseason, again, for the 4th time in 6 years?

Wash. Rinse. Repeat.

[Areathrasher]

Oh, I thought we were just naming guys that have zero chance of becoming TFC manager.

NVM

[PopePouri]

Jose Mourinho might be out of a job soon.

[OgtheDim]

Before this season, would anyone have picked Marsch to do well?

[Areathrasher]

Before this season, would anyone have picked Marsch to do well?

He was always well regarded and thought to have been given a rough go in MTL, it's not that surprising. At least to me anyways.

[Ultra & Proud]

Before this season, would anyone have picked Marsch to do well?
I did. I wanted him here back when Montreal canned him. I wanted Petke too so we'll see how well he does in his next job too after we hire another manager with zero experience.

[portu]

Miguel Herrera
Holy shit this would be craZy

[ManUtd4ever]

Before this season, would anyone have picked Marsch to do well?

Yes. I thought he got the short end of the stick in Montreal.

[Red CB Toronto]

I have no issue with anything going on right now, just relax, catch your breath, lots of footy still to be played. Greg needs to stay in place and allow for this to truly come together ! By the way the Reds will more than likely be playing in the shadows of what has taken this city by storm, the Blue Jays. This could be a good thing as the Reds will not be the focus of the media spotlight and can just do their thing !

[trane]

^ This here is the winning TFC attitude, since 2007.

Love it. We have not been able to defend all season long, have you not noticed? Vanney has done some good things, he is certainly not the worst manager we have had, BUT defending is an issue that he has not been able to resolve. This was the problem all along, we were just lucky enough that some monster offensive performances resulted in points, despite the horrible defending, but we cannot win long term that way. So if we want too do more then possibly just make it into the playoffs, we should address the problem.

[Richard]

Miguel Herrera

Can he speak English? That's actually a really interesting idea, he's got enough clout and experience and maybe even understands the North American game since he managed in Liga MX.

Vanney still needs to be given the year, its madness to make a change now unless you really got an ace up the sleeve.

[OgtheDim]

^ This here is the winning TFC attitude, since 2007.

Love it. We have not been able to defend all season long, have you not noticed? Vanney has done some good things, he is certainly not the worst manager we have had, BUT defending is an issue that he has not been able to resolve. This was the problem all along, we were just lucky enough that some monster offensive performances resulted in points, despite the horrible defending, but we cannot win long term that way. So if we want too do more then possibly just make it into the playoffs, we should address the problem.

I and many others would argue the winning approach that has doomed TFC season after season is the one you are suggesting - ditching a coach mid season.

[Areathrasher]

Can he speak English? That's actually a really interesting idea, he's got enough clout and experience and maybe even understands the North American game since he managed in Liga MX.

Vanney still needs to be given the year, its madness to make a change now unless you really got an ace up the sleeve.

Not 100% sure if he can speak English tbh.

He’s been very complimentary of MLS, by Mexican standards at least, when having to talk about picking Mexican players in MLS (Cubo and Dos Santos). That led me to believe he’s probably open to coaching here at some point and he’ll probably be a great hire for a MLS side eventually.

Having said that, zero chance he is coming here or to MLS in the short to medium term. He’ll be waiting for the Club America job to come available again and given their start to the season he probably wont have to wait that long.

[dupont]

We better not fire Vanney mid season. Only end of season is ok for me if things don't pan out. I just want to just see what fucking happens for once!

[trane]

I and many others would argue the winning approach that has doomed TFC season after season is the one you are suggesting - ditching a coach mid season.

The problem is not who we fired, the problem is who we hired after. We fire without having an alternative, and if we are going to bring in the next guy on the bench there is not point.

[portu]

To be perfectly honest it's too late to fire Vanney and succeed. If we were going to fire him it should have come before the halfway mark in the season so as to afford his replacement a reasonable number of games to get his system right as well as for him to have a transfer window to make adjustments. Keep him till the end and evaluate from there.

[Ossington Mental Youth]

Last few games have been shit but im not quite ready to write off Vanney, especially as we are in 4th place with plenty of games to play at home.

[Super]

I definitely think we should let Vanney see out the season. Then they will have to review and sort out the future of this club. If we make the play-offs and do not get knocked out brutally in the first round then I feel that this would be sufficient enough to let Vanney take the team into next season. Short of that, no, he'd have to go. Especially since pretty much no one thinks he's a good coach. Not one person from what I've seen. I've seen TONS of comments from TFC fans, Toronto media, media outside, football fans in general in North America, all of them pretty much say that Vanney makes odd tactical decisions. On top of that add to that the fact that we can't seem to fix any problems. Nothing ever gets fixed. We're still letting in tons of goals. We still look weak in midfield. We rely 100% on the production made by ONE player. Overall I don't think Vanney can be said to be a good coach by anyone's standard. But hey, might surprise us all.

[RedsYNWA]

Odd how former TFC managers are pretty much unemployed
yet former players get better as players and/or managers

[Red CB Toronto]

Where are you now that I need you !

[Heart of Stone]

C.C. is still the best coach we've ever had.

[Initial B]

Especially since pretty much no one thinks he's a good coach. Not one person from what I've seen. I've seen TONS of comments from TFC fans, Toronto media, media outside, football fans in general in North America, all of them pretty much say that Vanney makes odd tactical decisions. On top of that add to that the fact that we can't seem to fix any problems. Nothing ever gets fixed. We're still letting in tons of goals. We still look weak in midfield. We rely 100% on the production made by ONE player. Overall I don't think Vanney can be said to be a good coach by anyone's standard. But hey, might surprise us all.

I'm pretty sure that Bruce Arena's opinion matters more than any opinion held by the soccer public or pundits, and he rates Vanney as good. I think everyone is forgetting that MLS doesn't just exist to improve the American player pool, but also the American coaching pool as well. Vanney isn't going anywhere - the Don and USSF want him developing with good talent at his disposal so he knows what to do with it when he eventually becomes a USMNT coach in about 3 world cup cycles.

[TFC07]

I'm pretty sure that Bruce Arena's opinion matters more than any opinion held by the soccer public or pundits, and he rates Vanney as good. I think everyone is forgetting that MLS doesn't just exist to improve the American player pool, but also the American coaching pool as well. Vanney isn't going anywhere - the Don and USSF want him developing with good talent at his disposal so he knows what to do with it when he eventually becomes a USMNT coach in about 3 world cup cycles.

But TFC is Canadian team sanction by CSA so they don't have to do any favours for USMNT and USSF.

Vanney will just get hire by some other US based MLS club if he's let go in Toronto if MLS/USSF is so worry about Vanney.

[Initial B]

TFC may be a Canadian team, but I think Garber and the MLS FO has shown through their actions/inaction that they don't care about Canadian development. It's doubtful that Vanney would get access to as many high-profile/quality players with any other team in the league beyond the top five that have been shown to be willing to spend that might have a vacancy available. Arena/Vermes/Sigi/Marsch aren't going anywhere.

[Red CB Toronto]

Bob Bradley to the rescue LOL ( :

[sully]

we have had, what 7 or 8 head coaches in our short history. But have any of them come in as proven experienced winners?

[TFC07]

TFC may be a Canadian team, but I think Garber and the MLS FO has shown through their actions/inaction that they don't care about Canadian development. It's doubtful that Vanney would get access to as many high-profile/quality players with any other team in the league beyond the top five that have been shown to be willing to spend that might have a vacancy available. Arena/Vermes/Sigi/Marsch aren't going anywhere.

On paper, CSA has more power than USSF/MLS on TFC. USSF can't force TFC to have American coaches. They have no power on TFC besides letting MLS have CDN teams in their league. CSA in the other hand, they have to sanction TFC if they want to play in MLS. CSA on paper can threaten TFC and MLS if they're trying have influence on Canadian clubs to help out USSF.

[OgtheDim]

we have had, what 7 or 8 head coaches in our short history. But have any of them come in as proven experienced winners?

That's not what happens in MLS. You either get inexperience or people who have had 1 decent season. (unless you get Arena).

[Oldtimer]

I'm pretty sure that Bruce Arena's opinion matters more than any opinion held by the soccer public or pundits, and he rates Vanney as good. I think everyone is forgetting that MLS doesn't just exist to improve the American player pool, but also the American coaching pool as well. Vanney isn't going anywhere - the Don and USSF want him developing with good talent at his disposal so he knows what to do with it when he eventually becomes a USMNT coach in about 3 world cup cycles.

Just listening to Vanney you can tell he has a tactical mind. His only problem is inexperience. Someone like Bruce Arena has the ability to see this and understands that Vanney has a promising future.

Our only problem is the present. TFC has always been saddled with less experienced coaches (save for Preki). Fans feel like they can't wait another 2-3 years until Vanney turns into a solid coach. He has clearly improved from year 1, but that's not good enough for many on this board or on social media.

The key is can Vanney do enough now to keep his job, and eventually form this team into a legit challenger, or will the usual Toronto thing happen and we end up with yet another new untested coach, this time with less tactical potential?

[ag futbol]

Is anyone naive enough to think they'll get an honest opinion when someone publicly comments on the quality of someone else in the industry?

If Arena came out and said "this guy sucks!" That would be news. It would also be self defeating for everyone involved, since it would take the other guy down a peg and the person making a comment would be looked at awkwardly by current / potential staffers.

Someone says "what do you think of this guy?" And for all but a few ego maniacs like mourinho and furgeson( who are more interested in head games than an honest opinion) you pretty much always get a powder puff response.

[ManUtd4ever]

We have been through this song and dance on several occasions, and firing a coach at this point of the season has yet to yield the desired results. We have to let Vanney ride out the season for better or worse and re-evaluate in the off season.

[Phil]

We have been through this song and dance on several occasions, and firing a coach at this point of the season has yet to yield the desired results. We have to let Vanney ride out the season for better or worse and re-evaluate in the off season.

I am totally onside with this but there is a ton riding on this season actually meeting some kind of success criteria.

In the past this has lead them down the panic move firing route, who knows for this year...

[Fort York Redcoat]

There's usually more options or at least numbers of coaches looking to change clubs between seasons. It just makes more sense when we're still in it.

[ag futbol]

We have been through this song and dance on several occasions, and firing a coach at this point of the season has yet to yield the desired results. We have to let Vanney ride out the season for better or worse and re-evaluate in the off season.
Agreed. Unless the perfect candidate was out there (nobody I see fits that description currently) it's more disruptive than good.

[Ultra & Proud]

Let him have the season and if we fix nothing, which I doubt we will, then there shouldn't be the same discourse that happened after the Nelsen firing. Everyone should be on the same page that Vanney isn't good enough. However, if this slide and whatever is going on behind the scenes continues, Vanney loses the dressing room, and we do our traditional stretch run flop then we may need a change.

[pdubs]

Is playoffs enough for another season? I personally think it would be since it is a hurdle we have never overcome even tho 60% of teams make it and we are in the weaker conference. We have picked up points on the road when teams in the past never have. It's just that I was stunned last game that Vanney didn't adjust and when he did it was too late. In fact he set-up right into Red Bulls hands and they just played their game which we all knew was coming. I expected big changes at half or at least 55th min when it was clear the game plan was dead wrong. Vanney has promise but last game was hard to take for me.

Agree with the season and see where we stand.

[Fort York Redcoat]

Let him have the season and if we fix nothing, which I doubt we will, then there shouldn't be the same discourse that happened after the Nelsen firing. Everyone should be on the same page that Vanney isn't good enough. However, if this slide and whatever is going on behind the scenes continues, Vanney loses the dressing room, and we do our traditional stretch run flop then we may need a change.

Not that I disagree with what you're saying, but when everyone is on the same page I'll know that something disastrous has happened. Aliens, hive mind, something. It just has no precedent.g:D

[Couchy81]

It's just that I was stunned last game that Vanney didn't adjust and when he did it was too late. In fact he set-up right into Red Bulls hands and they just played their game which we all knew was coming. I expected big changes at half or at least 55th min when it was clear the game plan was dead wrong. Vanney has promise but last game was hard to take for me.



His lack of adjustments shouldn't be surprising to anyone in fact it should be expected, since he has been failing to make adjustments at half time and with subs all season long. Read game threads from last month, the month before, there are plenty of comments about it.

I don't know what stops him from making the necessary adjustments at the appropriate times, but unless he can find the willingness to change his game plan spontaneously to react to the other team we will be screwed with him at the helm.

[Oldtimer]

Not that I disagree with what you're saying, but when everyone is on the same page I'll know that something disastrous has happened. Aliens, hive mind, something. It just has no precedent.g:D

"Everybody being on the same page" is the very definition of groupthink.

[pdubs]

His lack of adjustments shouldn't be surprising to anyone in fact it should be expected, since he has been failing to make adjustments at half time and with subs all season long. Read game threads from last month, the month before, there are plenty of comments about it.

I don't know what stops him from making the necessary adjustments at the appropriate times, but unless he can find the willingness to change his game plan spontaneously to react to the other team we will be screwed with him at the helm.

Agreed. Rarely makes them before 75 min. He loves cameo appearances. Last game tho it should have been evident to everyone he was just sticking to his guns. If Bradley is playing like shit, take him off. I guess I shouldn't have expected different last game but man, tough to watch.

[OgtheDim]

I specifically remember adjustments made in Vancouver at half time.

I also remember adjustments in Chicago and RSL.

Last Saturday was the first time when I saw adjustments too late.

Oh and Bradley doesn't leave any game, be it TFC or USMNT.

[Richard]

Nobody is bigger than the club.

Bradley should be benched for that performance, its a problem when a player plays that bad and isnt going to be sat down.

I would gain a lot of respect for Vanney if did that, Bradleys passing was a major issue.

[brad]

Agreed. Rarely makes them before 75 min. He loves cameo appearances. Last game tho it should have been evident to everyone he was just sticking to his guns. If Bradley is playing like shit, take him off. I guess I shouldn't have expected different last game but man, tough to watch.

If rumors of Bradley's influence are true, then Vanney is in a tough spot. His hands are tied there.

The coaches power should be absolute. As soon as it's not, he is screwed.

[pdubs]

I specifically remember adjustments made in Vancouver at half time.

I also remember adjustments in Chicago and RSL.

Last Saturday was the first time when I saw adjustments too late.

Oh and Bradley doesn't leave any game, be it TFC or USMNT.

He may have made those adjustments (can only remember Vancouver honestly but idk) but Vanney completely shat the bed last game.

And disagree, if Bradley is under performing in a particular game he shouldn't be exempt from being subbed out. I think the overall problem lies in team set-up and finding the balance which is on Vanney but Bradley needs to be better and be the leader we need. He hasn't been that since returning. If it is 70th min and Bradley has done shit all don't really see the benefit to keeping him in a game only based on merit. The "he can't leave any game" is way to strict for me. Should depend on the flow of the game and current form. I know what you are getting at (Captain and USMNT captain) but I have never liked that type of finality. He needs to be better, maybe a sub out will help him and maybe help us.

[ManUtd4ever]

Regarding Bradley, this season is reminiscent of last season. He was fantastic prior to the World Cup, the team lost it's rhythm in his absence, and then he had trouble regaining his form when he came back.

A very frustrating pattern to observe as a supporter.

[pdubs]

If rumors of Bradley's influence are true, then Vanney is in a tough spot. His hands are tied there.

The coaches power should be absolute. As soon as it's not, he is screwed.

Agreed. Despite how we like to say Bradley controls the team, Vanney is in the hot seat and the final decisions lay with him. Vanney only needs to win, not appease players on the team. If he can take council from key players and utilize that in his strategy then great. But Bradley should not be above the manager. If he is then Vanney has already lost the plot and so has this organization.

[reggie]

unless they go on a streak and maybe win a playoff game,i think bez and vanney are done.i think bob bradley is the next coach.TL has his finger on the trigger and if they lose bad this weekend you never know?maybe DD or the new head of academy for the rest of the season.i hope not.

[jabbronies]

If this version of the TFC management team really is better than past regimes, they will do what no other TFC front office has ever done in the 8+ losing seasons:
Stay the course with the coach they have.

If they do change managers now - they are no better than past regimes.
No better than MoJo years, no better than the Anselmi after Mojo years - doesn't matter what coach they bring in because they would be losers just like those other guys.
Losers who don't know what the fuck they are doing. Doesn't matter if they bring in Jose Mourinho - they will fuck it up because that is the trend they would be following.

If 8+ years of no playoffs has taught this club anything - it should be not to fire/push out the manager to try and get into the playoffs.

[Detroit_TFC]

^ I keep coming back to this. It really is the road untraveled.

[Ultra & Proud]

Playoffs for me aren't enough in themselves. Not making them though would be a disaster, biggest ever probably, for this club. Now that's saying something. Making them however shouldn't be the deciding factor on anything. Judge the pros and judge the flaws. Take into account the tactics, the subs, the ability to adapt. Add it all up and objectively decide if Vanney is the guy to take the team to the next level.

Honestly making the playoffs is an easy goal for anyone but us. With this team it would almost be harder not to make it than make it. I hope Bez and T.L look beyond that simple (for some) achievement.

[TheGoodson]

As much there is blame on Vanney for his tactics and subs, but let's not forget he can only use what is given to him. We have a shit backline... It has been like for 8 bloody years. Bez has to take some if not all of the blame for constructing the roster. He picked Findlay and his ridiculous salary. We need defenders he goes and get Herc???

I'm not sure how Vanney is responsible for the middle being pedestrian, terrible defensively and has no speed. Delgado should not be starting at this point he gets pushed off the ball way to easy. Cheryou as an anchor is not good when teams press. Bradley for all the running he does needs to understand that he needs to let everyone do their job and worry about his own responsibilities. Osorio needs to be more consistent (which up until a couple of games ago was rounding into form) and he needs to push forward with the ball not always looking to move it sideways or backwards. Warner is what he is, useful but not a difference maker. Also, especially when teams press the midfield does not provide options, I learned at an early age to provide an outlet (the triangle) maybe the team needs a refresher on this, which come to think about it is quite sad that professional players can't or won't do the basics.

Again, partially Vanney's fault, but I think that the players should take a ton of the blame especially in the past 2 games.

[ensco]

Playoffs for me aren't enough in themselves. Not making them though would be a disaster, biggest ever probably, for this club. Now that's saying something. Making them however shouldn't be the deciding factor on anything. Judge the pros and judge the flaws. Take into account the tactics, the subs, the ability to adapt. Add it all up and objectively decide if Vanney is the guy to take the team to the next level.

Honestly making the playoffs is an easy goal for anyone but us. With this team it would almost be harder not to make it than make it. I hope Bez and T.L look beyond that simple (for some) achievement.

Agreed. We need to stop talking about the playoffs. It's pretty meaningless in the expanded format. Making the playoffs this year will happen solely because they beat Philly and Orlando 5 times.

Right now they are something like 2-6-3 against the better teams in the league. That has to get better by season's end.

[Areathrasher]

Right now around the league (and within our own fan base to an extent) there is the `TFC are TFCìn and going to capitulate and not make the playoffs, typical TFC’

So yes, getting to the playoffs is absolutely massive. Getting that monkey off the clubs back is very important.

Now I’m by no means suggesting that scraping into the playoffs is a success but just from a stigma point of view, getting in will be beneficial for the club going forward.

Either Vanney gets in and gets to build off it or the new guy coming in doesn’t won’t have to deal with the usual BS if there is a summer slump next year (or the losing streak starting on the road again next year)

[Oldtimer]

Agreed. We need to stop talking about the playoffs. It's pretty meaningless in the expanded format. Making the playoffs this year will happen solely because they beat Philly and Orlando 5 times.

Right now they are something like 2-6-3 against the better teams in the league. That has to get better by season's end.

Disagree. It's meaningful, just not as meaningful as it was previously (although more meaningful than when 8/10 clubs made the playoffs in the early days of MLS). However, it shows that TFC is a mid-table team, not yet ready for the title.

[notthesun]

Making the playoffs is important in terms of fan satisfaction and maintaining relevancy. But it's the playoff run that really matters. If we finish 6th and crash out immediately it's a failure. If we finish 6th and it all comes together and we make the final, who cares that we qualified in the last spot?

On Vanney, I still think he could be the long term solution, simply because he's pretty much the only TFC coach that has ever made tactical adjustments throughout a season. Early in the year we played a high line and got burned for it; Vanney has fixed that. Bradley was playing in a deep-lying role and not getting into the game; Vanney moved him upfield and he's had a huge impact (his poor game last weekend notwithstanding). Nelsen, Mariner, Winter, etc... they just swapped players in and out, putting out the same game plan week after week. That being said, the defense has been a huge problem the last stretch of games and Vanney hasn't been able to figure it out. That's concerning. And I've questioned his in-game adjustments or decisions many times. The jury is still out on him for me. I'm hopeful if just for the fact that another coaching change I feel could do some real damage to the team.

[ManUtd4ever]

Disagree. It's meaningful, just not as meaningful as it was previously (although more meaningful than when 8/10 clubs made the playoffs in the early days of MLS). However, it shows that TFC is a mid-table team, not yet ready for the title.

We are a mid-table team, but the question is, should that be the case?

I think we are far better than that on paper. A combination of questionable tactical adaptation, sub par goalkeeping, and an inconsistent starting lineup has caused this club to underachieve.

I agree that making the playoffs in of itself is not much of an accomplishment with our roster.

[ensco]

Disagree. It's meaningful, just not as meaningful as it was previously (although more meaningful than when 8/10 clubs made the playoffs in the early days of MLS). However, it shows that TFC is a mid-table team, not yet ready for the title.

Coming in 5th or 6th in the east will be worse than "mid table".

As someone above said, what will matter far more is what happens next.

Scraping in and getting blasted out of the first round (a la Montreal two years ago) is the same as missing the playoffs, in terms of meaning.

Scraping in and going on a tear, like RSL in 2009, that would move the needle.

[Ultra & Proud]

Coming in 5th or 6th in the east will be worse than "mid table".

As someone above said, what will matter far more is what happens next. Scraping in and getting blasted out of the first round (a la Montreal two years ago) is the same as missing the playoffs, in terms of meaning.
This is it. I worry that by squeaking in 6th we'll have met all our objectives and all is well even if we got hammered in that play in match. We'd get the 'most successful season yet' and 'learning experience' jazz to sell more seats (and hope) and jack the ticket prices a bit more than they already plan to. Then we'll wait until next year to see that we aren't progressing.

Progress is the key word. We did progress under Vanney offensively but regressed defensively but overall in the big picture I say we've progressed. However, I think we may have plateaued. Vanney may progress as well and get better or maybe he won't. We need to see whether he is the guy or not for the job and falling into 5th or 6th may put the blinders on.

[MightyDM]

Making the playoffs is important in terms of fan satisfaction and maintaining relevancy. But it's the playoff run that really matters. If we finish 6th and crash out immediately it's a failure. If we finish 6th and it all comes together and we make the final, who cares that we qualified in the last spot?

On Vanney, I still think he could be the long term solution, simply because he's pretty much the only TFC coach that has ever made tactical adjustments throughout a season. Early in the year we played a high line and got burned for it; Vanney has fixed that. Bradley was playing in a deep-lying role and not getting into the game; Vanney moved him upfield and he's had a huge impact (his poor game last weekend notwithstanding). Nelsen, Mariner, Winter, etc... they just swapped players in and out, putting out the same game plan week after week. That being said, the defense has been a huge problem the last stretch of games and Vanney hasn't been able to figure it out. That's concerning. And I've questioned his in-game adjustments or decisions many times. The jury is still out on him for me. I'm hopeful if just for the fact that another coaching change I feel could do some real damage to the team.

Just a couple of points: we did well under Carter and Cummins. I don't think it would be fair to say they made no adjustments. Secondly, but for a couple of games this season, Vanney's team have been totally porous at the back, and in more than two thirds of his games we have given up the first goal in the first half. This speaks to something missing in his coaching.

[BelfastBoy]

Just a couple of points: we did well under Carter and Cummins. I don't think it would be fair to say they made no adjustments. Secondly, but for a couple of games this season, Vanney's team have been totally porous at the back, and in more than two thirds of his games we have given up the first goal in the first half. This speaks to something missing in his coaching.

Coach Carter?

[shwade]

Agreed. We need to stop talking about the playoffs. It's pretty meaningless in the expanded format. Making the playoffs this year will happen solely because they beat Philly and Orlando 5 times.

Right now they are something like 2-6-3 against the better teams in the league. That has to get better by season's end.

This.
The bar is set far too low for this team if squeezing into the playoffs is considered progress.

[Fort York Redcoat]

Coach Carter?

https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSLu9eZR0c-Pjik7hAbp3XjlSF7FfTwt9vZQ9GgFOYUoImOfkBlCw

[MightyDM]

Just listening to Vanney you can tell he has a tactical mind. His only problem is inexperience. Someone like Bruce Arena has the ability to see this and understands that Vanney has a promising future.

Our only problem is the present. TFC has always been saddled with less experienced coaches (save for Preki). Fans feel like they can't wait another 2-3 years until Vanney turns into a solid coach. He has clearly improved from year 1, but that's not good enough for many on this board or on social media.

The key is can Vanney do enough now to keep his job, and eventually form this team into a legit challenger, or will the usual Toronto thing happen and we end up with yet another new untested coach, this time with less tactical potential?

Tactical, analytical mind, yes. But coaching is about lots of other things too: motivation, endless reps to ensure players react rather than thinking, making good in game decisions, etc. it's there he is questionable. He often says "we talked about it in trying" as if talking about a system or a player is enough, when was is required is actual on field work.

[Ultra & Proud]

https://twitter.com/JohnMolinaro/status/633696087027531776

[Oldtimer]

Tactical, analytical mind, yes. But coaching is about lots of other things too: motivation, endless reps to ensure players react rather than thinking, making good in game decisions, etc. it's there he is questionable. He often says "we talked about it in trying" as if talking about a system or a player is enough, when was is required is actual on field work.

I'm well aware of that (I spent years coaching amateur players). It's hard for us to measure things like that, so we're guessing (unless someone speaks out, like with Preki or Mo). Bad results can either be the players' attitudes (coach has some influence on but is not omnipotent), the quality of the players themselves (the best coach in the world can't turn crap into gold) -- which is on league limitations and on Bez, and sometimes the coach.

My own take is that Vanney has the mind for a lot of these things, but needs further maturing to reach his potential. I'm sick and tired of green coaches for my club, but given that there are only a handful of really great coaches in the league (and the best have great gigs in either NY or are enjoying the west coast) it would be very hard to get someone more qualified, especially given our history. Who wants to coach for half a season and get fired?


https://twitter.com/JohnMolinaro/status/633696087027531776

propaganda for the masses. The real stuff is told in the locker room, not to journalists.

[ManUtd4ever]

https://twitter.com/JohnMolinaro/status/633696087027531776

If that isn't an indictment of Bendik's goalkeeping, I don't know what is. Let's see if he goes with him again next game.

[kwhisperer]

We are not the decision makers on this matter so discussing this matter endlessly is getting a little tired. Just enjoy the Reds in whatever way you want and take it from there. There is only one opinion that matters at the end of the day and its not ours.

Wouldn't that go for a huge percentage of what is discussed in these forums?

[kwhisperer]

If that isn't an indictment of Bendik's goalkeeping, I don't know what is. Let's see if he goes with him again next game.

It does suggest starting Bendik is more about principle and stubbornness than giving the team the best chance to win.

[ag futbol]

Is playoffs enough for another season? I personally think it would be since it is a hurdle we have never overcome even tho 60% of teams make it and we are in the weaker conference. We have picked up points on the road when teams in the past never have. It's just that I was stunned last game that Vanney didn't adjust and when he did it was too late. In fact he set-up right into Red Bulls hands and they just played their game which we all knew was coming. I expected big changes at half or at least 55th min when it was clear the game plan was dead wrong. Vanney has promise but last game was hard to take for me.

Agree with the season and see where we stand.
A strong finish and a competitive first round (even if we go out) that would be my ask. Helps us carry momentum into next year. If that doesn't happen, feels like we're selling ourselves short.

[ManUtd4ever]

A strong finish and a competitive first round (even if we go out) that would be my ask. Helps us carry momentum into next year. If that doesn't happen, feels like we're selling ourselves short.

Agreed.

[Richard]

https://twitter.com/JohnMolinaro/status/633696087027531776

He is right, the midfield was absolutely shite and hung them out to dry.

[OgtheDim]

Playoffs are enough for ownership, management and I would argue most fans.

[ryan]

Coming in 5th or 6th in the east will be worse than "mid table".

As someone above said, what will matter far more is what happens next.

Scraping in and getting blasted out of the first round (a la Montreal two years ago) is the same as missing the playoffs, in terms of meaning.

Scraping in and going on a tear, like RSL in 2009, that would move the needle.

We pay thrice in tickets. MLSE hangs up their "MISSION ACCOMPLISHED" banner.

[TFC07]

It doesn't take two seasons to figure out if someone is right manager or not.

I feel like Vanney is wrong choice from beginning due to lack of experience. Not only that, but when TFC spending big money on players, then making playoffs shouldn't be their main goal. TFC should be aiming for Eastern Conference title at least.

TFC needs an experience manager who can handle big name players while able to get best out of average MLS player. TFC simply don't have enough time to train/groom a manager who could one day be able to handle this club direction.

[Jack]

It doesn't take two seasons to figure out if someone is right manager or not.

I feel like Vanney is wrong choice from beginning due to lack of experience. Not only that, but when TFC spending big money on players, then making playoffs shouldn't be their main goal. TFC should be aiming for Eastern Conference title at least.

TFC needs an experience manager who can handle big name players while able to get best out of average MLS player. TFC simply don't have enough time to train/groom a manager who could one day be able to handle this club direction.
Vanney hasn't even been the coach for a full year, yet alone two seasons. TFC should be aiming for the Eastern Conference, of course, but you don't go from worst in the league to best in less than a year. Bez and Vanney inherited a shitshow of a roster and have done a good job of cleaning it up, boosted by some big name signings. Building depth and a system takes longer than a year or even two, no matter how much experience the manager has. Especially in MLS where depth players are so important because of the cap.

I question whether we are getting the most out of this roster with Vanney, but we are not contenders in this league yet. We have a solid foundation, but we need more depth. Bez addressed the backup scoring issue by bringing in Herculez and he thought he'd helped the defence with Kantari, who has been underwhelming. But the most troublesome thing for me from the last few games is that our midfield, supposedly one of our strengths, has been overrun. This also makes our defence look worse than it is. But firing yet another coach after less than a year at the helm is one of the few things this organization hasn't tried yet.

[kwhisperer]

Playoffs are enough for ownership, management and I would argue most fans.

In one sense playoffs would be good enough for this day-one STH in that, if they fail, I can't think of any reason why it would be worth continuing to follow them. For me it would be disastrous. Maybe a baby step but at least playoffs would show they've achieved something and gave themselves a shot at going on. Really, I would be happy with making playoffs with some cushion...and at least playing very competitively in any and all playoff games.

[Ossington Mental Youth]

babysteps, playoffs would be a step in teh right direction, not the ultimate goal