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shwade
04-18-2015, 08:29 PM
Bradley worth a $30 million contract and altidore getting the same salary as Defoe? What kind of fuckery is this?

Altidore is an MLS level player who got lucky one year in Europe and seems to do well for the USMNT...that's it.
Bradley is the son of someone important but doesn't do anything at all to warrant his salary. He controls the dressing room and managers but leaves every other week to play for the US and come back tired for Toronto.
We all lost our shit when he came because of his age but Gerrard would be far more useful than him.
Just think of the DPs in this league and it's mind boggling how these two command the salary that they do. Gilberto was a steal at 1.2 compared to Altidore.

king10
04-18-2015, 08:34 PM
Seriously. Gilberto was the way better option than altitore for a quarter of the price. Why the hell are we letting one player make management decisions. Let alone one who is gone every second week when he should be leadingg and captaining his side through this shitshow start to the season.

RealG-TFC
04-18-2015, 08:38 PM
As much as I think Altidore will eventually deliver, I also believe he'll naver deliver enough to justify the price. We should have kept Gilberto and brought in some of his friends (Piccolomo?).

Richard
04-18-2015, 08:50 PM
As much as I think Altidore will eventually deliver, I also believe he'll naver deliver enough to justify the price. We should have kept Gilberto and brought in some of his friends (Piccolomo?).

I'm in indifferent on Altidore, we got rid of one problem for another, a true player swap in every sense, but Altidore has upside unlike the aging Defoe.

brad
04-18-2015, 08:51 PM
Bradley was a midfielder from Roma entering his prime willing to come to the MLS. Hindsight is 20-20, but dishing out for a player that was a good Serie A player that is not over the hill made sense at the time.

Still, they should have backed that dump truck full of money up to Arena or Schmidt....

king10
04-18-2015, 08:54 PM
Bradley was a midfielder from Roma entering his prime willing to come to the MLS. Hindsight is 20-20, but dishing out for a player that was a good Serie A player that is not over the hill made sense at the time.

Still, they should have backed that dump truck full of money up to Arena or Schmidt....

replace bradley with de guzman and roma with deportivo and serie a for la liga and we've lived that situation twice.

OgtheDim
04-18-2015, 08:55 PM
De Guzman wasn't a leader and didn't want to be here and had no idea about the league.

Bradley is WAY better then him.

shwade
04-18-2015, 08:57 PM
De Guzman wasn't a leader and didn't want to be here and had no idea about the league.

Bradley is WAY better then him.

Soo how has knowledge of the league, being a leader and wanting to be here worked for Bradley so far? I agree he's 'better' than DeGuzman but thus far he hasn't shown that he is.

RealG-TFC
04-18-2015, 08:58 PM
I'm in indifferent on Altidore, we got rid of one problem for another, a true player swap in every sense, but Altidore has upside unlike the aging Defoe.

I suppose that is true, it's just so dificult thinking in the longterm when the short-term looks like 0-3 in a half hour.

OgtheDim
04-18-2015, 09:02 PM
Soo how has knowledge of the league, being a leader and wanting to be here worked for Bradley so far? I agree he's 'better' than DeGuzman but thus far he hasn't shown that he is.

If you believe that then there's no discussing this.

brad
04-18-2015, 09:02 PM
replace bradley with de guzman and roma with deportivo and serie a for la liga and we've lived that situation twice.

De Guzman was a crocked player that only signed here because nobody else wanted him. Bradley had other options, including teams in the Serie A & EPL that wanted him. Very different situations.

king10
04-18-2015, 09:05 PM
De Guzman wasn't a leader and didn't want to be here and had no idea about the league.

Bradley is WAY better then him.


Bradley isnt much of a leader when hes playing for his NT every second weekend in unofficial friendlies. If by leader you mean taking the captains armband away from the current captain and pushing management to bring in his buddy altidore then i guess ya a leader.

Also when de guzman came from deportivo he was only a year removed from being deportivos player of the year.

king10
04-18-2015, 09:06 PM
De Guzman was a crocked player that only signed here because nobody else wanted him. Bradley had other options, including teams in the Serie A & EPL that wanted him. Very different situations.

how did nobody else want de guzman. He was 2007 2008 deportivo player of the year. You dont sign a DP deal because nobody else wanted you.

brad
04-18-2015, 09:19 PM
how did nobody else want de guzman. He was 2007 2008 deportivo player of the year. You dont sign a DP deal because nobody else wanted you.

No clue, but that is why he signed. He was looking for other options (at lower salaries), but no one wanted him.

shwade
04-18-2015, 09:28 PM
If you believe that then there's no discussing this.

Believe that he hasn't shown his worth yet? Or believe that he's better than DeGuzman? Weird. You like spitting words out but you added nothing. If you think he's shown that he's a $6 million player by 'knowledge of the league and wanting to be here' then explain it.
He shoots over the crossbar into the parking lot consistently, runs all over the pitch confusing teammates and ruining shape, doesn't break up opposing attacks and hardly makes key attacking passes.

king10
04-18-2015, 09:32 PM
De guzman was paid under $2 million. Bradley altidore over $5 million each. If de guzman was overpaid the other two are grossly overpaid.

Macksam
04-19-2015, 01:07 AM
No clue, but that is why he signed. He was looking for other options (at lower salaries), but no one wanted him.

You could say the same situation applied for Bradley.

Red4ever
04-19-2015, 01:07 AM
An unsuprisingly myopic post.

Gilberto had no goals by this point in the season. In case one year ago is too far a memory for you shwade.

Leedsoronto
04-19-2015, 08:54 AM
All the Gilberto bashing that went on on this site because he was not scoring ? He was a great play maker and we 100% should have kept him. Same with Laba!! They talk about teams gelling but if u swop out the team every 6 months the glue will never dry IMO

OgtheDim
04-19-2015, 09:13 AM
We have played 5 games and have 8 goals. The only team with more goals per game is NYRB. The issue for this team is not the attacking third, and it's not the DP's.

*******

The issue isn't in wasting the money on the DP's.

Its in not getting good value for money in the defence.


Indications are building that changes will be coming in that regard. I am hoping for Caldwell to be let go and for that cash to be spent on a couple of CD's. Bloom as a RB is pretty good for MLS. We'll see. But this defence is not good enough - and that's the issue.

Ultra & Proud
04-19-2015, 09:14 AM
You waste $60M by assembling a good squad and have them guided by a manager who sabotages any and all efforts made through the quality of the players.

That is what I define waste as. Not on overpaying players.

starter
04-19-2015, 09:39 AM
You waste $60M by assembling a good squad and have them guided by a manager who sabotages any and all efforts made through the quality of the players.

That is what I define waste as. Not on overpaying players.

Amen to that.

shwade
04-19-2015, 09:54 AM
You waste $60M by assembling a good squad and have them guided by a manager who sabotages any and all efforts made through the quality of the players.

That is what I define waste as. Not on overpaying players.

Yes, it makes no sense to have a rookie coach trying to guide this team but $60 million could definitely have been better spent considering the other DPs in this league. Perhaps it's a Toronto thing...we have to overpay.

shwade
04-19-2015, 09:56 AM
An unsuprisingly myopic post.

Gilberto had no goals by this point in the season. In case one year ago is too far a memory for you shwade.

Compare the salaries Einstein.
Everyone was saying Altidore has MLS experience...well he's done shit all so far. Once Gilberto had MLS experience he was doing very well.

dupont
04-19-2015, 09:59 AM
We have played 5 games and have 8 goals. The only team with more goals per game is NYRB. The issue for this team is not the attacking third, and it's not the DP's.

*******

The issue isn't in wasting the money on the DP's.

Its in not getting good value for money in the defence.

Just what I was thinking.

Leedsoronto
04-19-2015, 10:15 AM
Is the same ole same ole every season. Why not employ the Academy to play for minimum wages and use the money to bring in top HT entertainment like AcDc or some other well known pop rock blues bands to play HT and any extra can be used to give away free beer and hot dogs until it runs out. The place will fill up and stay filled. :@)

Red4ever
04-19-2015, 10:36 AM
Compare the salaries Einstein.
Everyone was saying Altidore has MLS experience...well he's done shit all so far. Once Gilberto had MLS experience he was doing very well.

Let it go man, he's gone.

king10
04-19-2015, 11:09 AM
Let it go man, he's gone.


Not technically. Hes on loan. We still own him. And frankly he should never have been let go. Already has 5 goals in 7 games for vasco this year.

trane
04-19-2015, 11:21 AM
For fuck sakes there is always someone who wants to pin it on one player or the other, Bradely is a world class CM, he was playing for Roma ( a champions league club) and could easily have moved to any top league in europe. That is why he is here, is our best mid, he is the best CM in the league. Altidore has scored and will score he is the type of CF that we need.

Our problems are tactical/systemic and the back line.


How do you waste 60 million by getting world class players on your team and giving them a CSL coach.

king10
04-19-2015, 11:23 AM
^^^^^ bradley has not demonstrated his roma form since coming to mls(which wasnt even top 5 serie A class, nvm world class). To say hes world class and the best midfielder in the league is simply not true. Even ask usmnt fans. He had a poor performance at the world cup and since then his NT form has dropped considerably.

also bradley never once played a europa league game while at roma let alone a champions league game. The team was never in europe while he was there and wasnt even a top 5 serie a club. Once he was sold they replaced him with better players like iturbe, naingolan, strooetman and have since been a top 3 and champions league club.

Red4ever
04-19-2015, 11:27 AM
Not technically. Hes on loan. We still own him. And frankly he should never have been let go. Already has 5 goals in 7 games for vasco this year.

If he had that production when he was here, he wouldn't have been let go.

king10
04-19-2015, 11:37 AM
If he had that production when he was here, he wouldn't have been let go.

He did have production in the second half of the season. If we had 4 dp slots or if bradley didnt run the show and bring his overpaid buddy altidore who scored a whopping zero goals last year gilberto would still be here.

the same could be said for laba who got shoved out the door for defoe and bradley. Now look at him at vancouver. Tops in mls west.

Shakes McQueen
04-19-2015, 11:38 AM
Its in not getting good value for money in the defence.

Someone give this man a cookie. I said (and not to pretend I'm some sort of unique sage - a bunch of other people did too), that TFC didn't do nearly enough to improve defensively this season, before the games even started.

Which is not to say I think this season is doomed already, by the way - any more than we were set for success when we got off to a pretty good start last season.

And it's not some secret that we are hugely overpaying Altidore. Bringing him in was salvaging a bad situation with Defoe, so TFC put together what they could to leave all parties as satisfied as possible. We are still in incredibly early days with Altidore - including still not even having played a home game yet.

Shakes McQueen
04-19-2015, 11:39 AM
He did have production in the second half of the season. If we had 4 dp slots or if bradley didnt run the show and bring his overpaid buddy altidore who scored a whopping zero goals last year gilberto would still be here.

Your first sentence is irrelevant, and your second sentence bears no relation to the reality of how and why the Altidore swap was made.

king10
04-19-2015, 11:42 AM
Fail to see how taking half a season to adjust to a new league and new country then being productive in the second half is irrelevant to demonstrating productivity for the team that the original poster called into question. But ok then.

Red4ever
04-19-2015, 12:16 PM
He did have production in the second half of the season. If we had 4 dp slots or if bradley didnt run the show and bring his overpaid buddy altidore who scored a whopping zero goals last year gilberto would still be here.

the same could be said for laba who got shoved out the door for defoe and bradley. Now look at him at vancouver. Tops in mls west.

Dude, if you think bradley shouldn't be here, you've lost the plot. None of your arguments make the least bit of sense.

cheers

king10
04-19-2015, 12:23 PM
Dude, if you think bradley shouldn't be here, you've lost the plot. None of your arguments make the least bit of sense.

cheers

Never said he shouldn't be here.

Said he's overpaid and not world class. Big difference. Also think he has too much power over decisions when he is jetting out for the usMNT every second weekend for non fifa friendlies when he should be staying with his club team that is in shambles and he is supposed to lead and captain. You'd think that maybe as a captain knowing he's already missed a game this year and will miss a bunch more for the Gold Cup he'd turn down a call up for a non fifa friendly and use the bye week as a captain to rest and train with his team.

Also, my argument is we should've kept gilberto and saved the money instead of paying altidore over $5 million when he scored zero goals last year.

cheers

shwade
04-19-2015, 12:34 PM
Never said he shouldn't be here.

Said he's overpaid and not world class. Big difference.

My argument is we should've kept gilberto and saved the money instead of paying altidore over $5 million when he scored zero goals last year.

cheers

This. No one is saying Bradley sucks. He's been a disappointment since his first few games last year.
When we only have 3 spots to splurge on and have $60M there are far better ways to spend that money as has been demonstrated by other teams in this league. No one is paying more for their squad than Toronto and no one has less to show for it.
All of this is on Bez of course, who handed the keys to Vanney. We were lining up Giovinco, and have findley, Moore, Dike, Hamilton and possibly Gilberto. We didn't need another forward, we could have spent Altidore $$ on a winger or defender which was sorely needed. The money here is being mismanaged. If we could get Cheyrou as a non-DP then why in fuck do we have altidore making 5 million a year.

king10
04-19-2015, 12:35 PM
This. No one is saying Bradley sucks. He's been a disappointment since his first few games last year.
When we only have 3 spots to splurge on and have $60M there are far better ways to spend that money as has been demonstrated by other teams in this league. No one is paying more for their squad than Toronto and no one has less to show for it.
All of this is on Bez of course, who handed the keys to Vanney. We were lining up Giovinco, and have findley, Moore, Dike, Hamilton and possibly Gilberto. We didn't need another forward, we could have spent Altidore $$ on a winger or defender which was sorely needed. The money here is being mismanaged. If we could get Cheyrou as a non-DP then why in fuck do we have altidore making 5 million a year.

Couldn't agree more with everything you said.

Soccerpro
04-19-2015, 12:47 PM
Bradley was a midfielder from Roma entering his prime willing to come to the MLS. Hindsight is 20-20, but dishing out for a player that was a good Serie A player that is not over the hill made sense at the time.

Still, they should have backed that dump truck full of money up to Arena or Schmidt....

this^

shwade
04-19-2015, 12:53 PM
For fuck sakes there is always someone who wants to pin it on one player or the other, Bradely is a world class CM, he was playing for Roma ( a champions league club) and could easily have moved to any top league in europe. That is why he is here, is our best mid, he is the best CM in the league. Altidore has scored and will score he is the type of CF that we need.

Our problems are tactical/systemic and the back line.


How do you waste 60 million by getting world class players on your team and giving them a CSL coach.

I read a lot of your posts trane, you clearly know a lot about the game but calling Bradley a world class midfielder at Roma and Th best CM in MLS is a laugh. Hell, he SHOULD BE the best cm in this league but he's far from it, not even the best midfielder on our team (Cheyrou) and that's where the disappointment comes from.
He was a decent Serie A player but king 10 already pointed out just how little he contributed/played at Roma. There's no way he would've moved to a Roma type club in Europe. He would have had to go to an Everton at most and taken half the salary he's making here.

starter
04-19-2015, 12:58 PM
I blame Leiweke for this mess. I could only see a manager being a decision-maker, if he is a qualified specialist.
Leaving Nelsen there, even for a half season allowed Tim B, glorified accountant, get comfortable in the role he was not supposed to assume, practically directing the club.
Leiweke should go over Bez head now, and appoint a president ( or something like this ) to lead the club. I am fine with a equivalent of Floro or Osieck.
This should bring some sense of continuity and direction to this failing franchise.

Initial B
04-19-2015, 03:08 PM
De Guzman wasn't a leader and didn't want to be here and had no idea about the league.

Bradley is WAY better then him.
You should probably take a look at the Ottawa Fury vs Minnesota United game last night. De Guzman was influential. I think the problem with all these TFC players is that they've never had coaches that knew how to utilize them. Marc dos Santos knows how to best utilize his players. TFC might want to take a look at hiring him if Vanney flames out and Klopp/Arena are not available.

flamehawk
04-19-2015, 03:40 PM
You should probably take a look at the Ottawa Fury vs Minnesota United game last night. De Guzman was influential. I think the problem with all these TFC players is that they've never had coaches that knew how to utilize them. Marc dos Santos knows how to best utilize his players. TFC might want to take a look at hiring him if Vanney flames out and Klopp/Arena are not available.

I wanted to make that comment too regarding De Guzman, having watched that game against Minnesota. I think he was selected MOTM. It's fascinating to see him played a role that fit him and the expectations consistent with that role. He was influential controlling the pace, breaking up plays, making simple passes. I still think that the majority of supporters have been completely unfair in their assessment of him. I even had friends come along with me to TFC games that didn't really follow the team (they only watched EPL) and they identified De Guzman as a stand out player that unfortunately had teammates not on the same wave length (e.g. a lot of passes into space that team mates didn't think to run in to). I will maybe concede that De Guzman may not have deserved the DP tag, but he was not a bad player.

Shway
04-19-2015, 05:02 PM
I wanted to make that comment too regarding De Guzman, having watched that game against Minnesota. I think he was selected MOTM. It's fascinating to see him played a role that fit him and the expectations consistent with that role. He was influential controlling the pace, breaking up plays, making simple passes. I still think that the majority of supporters have been completely unfair in their assessment of him. I even had friends come along with me to TFC games that didn't really follow the team (they only watched EPL) and they identified De Guzman as a stand out player that unfortunately had teammates not on the same wave length (e.g. a lot of passes into space that team mates didn't think to run in to). I will maybe concede that De Guzman may not have deserved the DP tag, but he was not a bad player.

This. De Guzman was a holding mid DP with the expectations of an attacking creative midfielder. We had him playing a position he never played.

I see a strong similarity between JDG and Bradley, in which Bradley has this expectation that he's a creative attacking mid who will consistently create goals. But like my man Yohan said all he is a box to box midfielder, who needs space to make decisive passes. He's never was, and never will be that player to influence a game from his 1v1 ability, and on the ground tight through balls to the forwards..

All in all, IMO you can't build a team off a box to box midfielder. Too much responsibility defensively, too much responsibility offensively.

dutch
04-19-2015, 05:53 PM
Bradley has been given the keys. The team will be built around him, He is asked his opinion on team decisions. When we fire Vanney and who replaces him also are things that probably will be asked of him. So it does not matter if we overpaid for Altidore, We did as he wished and we got rid of defoe as well. He will be given his stay at the helm until he proves otherwise. the team will continue to be built around Bradley. Dp's get call ups, The better the player, the more call ups. We need a good coach more than anything

MartinUtd
04-19-2015, 06:19 PM
Oh this is just glorious. After the petulant fit you threw after I started a thread saying "lets talk about the effectiveness of Gilberto" last year, you go ahead and post this!? And now to top it all off we're waxing poetically about Julian De Guzman.

LO-fucking-L

Yohan
04-19-2015, 06:22 PM
Dp's get call ups, The better the player, the more call ups. We need a good coach more than anything
Pedro Morales won't. Obafemi Martins won't. Neither will Kaka or Villa

Pookie
04-19-2015, 06:58 PM
Altidore may never justify his price but that's irrelevant.

Altidore is the cost of the bath that MLSE took on Defoe. That's on Leiweke.

We shouldn't hold Altidore accountable to a salary that Tim L overpaid for Defoe. The best way to shed Defoe's ridiculous contract was to take Altidore in a swap.

Altidore is here and we best get behind him.

shwade
04-19-2015, 07:28 PM
Oh this is just glorious. After the petulant fit you threw after I started a thread saying "lets talk about the effectiveness of Gilberto" last year, you go ahead and post this!? And now to top it all off we're waxing poetically about Julian De Guzman.

LO-fucking-L

Lol someone's still butthurt about an Internet discussion a year ago...get over it. If you actually bothered to read you would know that the main concern here is how the money could be better spent - Gilberto was earning peanuts compared to Altidore, but thanks for your contribution.

brad
04-19-2015, 08:13 PM
How much a DP earns is largely irrelevant. Whether they make 1 million or 6 million matters little in the grand scheme.

About the only way it matters is if you think about the higher costs being passed on to SSH's if the team ever turns around. The way I see it is MLSE is going to fleece you if that happens regardless of how much they have in DP's. Plus, it will probably never happen.

Dunedin
04-19-2015, 09:22 PM
Its still very early in the season. When Bradley isn't tired and firing at 100% we all know his quality. I feel the problem is not with the dps or attacking part of the field, its the defence and keeper. Bendik is very athletic but terrible at reading the game.

Yohan
04-19-2015, 09:46 PM
Its still very early in the season. When Bradley isn't tired and firing at 100% we all know his quality. I feel the problem is not with the dps or attacking part of the field, its the defence and keeper. Bendik is very athletic but terrible at reading the game.
It doesn't help that the midfield loves to turn the ball over for no reason. Bradley is #1 culprit at turnovers

Jack
04-19-2015, 10:49 PM
The tone in this thread is very off putting. You guys can disagree with one another without ridiculing the other person and being condescending pricks. If it keeps up, we can shut down the thread and hand out some breaks from the message board, but I trust that we can carry on some adult-level discussion where we disagree without being dicks to one another.

Mmmmkay?

trane
04-19-2015, 11:06 PM
I read a lot of your posts trane, you clearly know a lot about the game but calling Bradley a world class midfielder at Roma and Th best CM in MLS is a laugh. Hell, he SHOULD BE the best cm in this league but he's far from it, not even the best midfielder on our team (Cheyrou) and that's where the disappointment comes from.
He was a decent Serie A player but king 10 already pointed out just how little he contributed/played at Roma. There's no way he would've moved to a Roma type club in Europe. He would have had to go to an Everton at most and taken half the salary he's making here.

Hold on that is not quite what I am saying. I do think he is one of the best if not the best CM in the MLS, and I do think he is a world class player, as a CM, meaning that he could play in the best leagues. Do I think he tries to do to much at times yes,but he is one of the best box to box players, in this league, a better system and you would get more out of him. As for Roma, he left in part because they have serious depth at that positions and with strootman and Nanigolan who are also box to box types he moved down the pecking order. My point is that he could easily have moved to a team just like Everton, a team just outside of the champions league( or at the lower levels of the cl) in any of the top euro leagues, so we had to pay him big money for him to come here. He did contribute little at Roma after the first year, that is why we were able to get him.

trane
04-20-2015, 06:40 AM
^^^^^ bradley has not demonstrated his roma form since coming to mls(which wasnt even top 5 serie A class, nvm world class). To say hes world class and the best midfielder in the league is simply not true. Even ask usmnt fans. He had a poor performance at the world cup and since then his NT form has dropped considerably.

also bradley never once played a europa league game while at roma let alone a champions league game. The team was never in europe while he was there and wasnt even a top 5 serie a club. Once he was sold they replaced him with better players like iturbe, naingolan, strooetman and have since been a top 3 and champions league club.

Roma made the champions league that year, and Strootman was already with the club, and too my recollection naingolan was brought in before the trade, this is why Bradley was willing to leave and Roma willing to let him go, because he was playing less with those too on the club, as they are the same type of player. Now Strootman and Naingolan are two of the best box to box mids in the world. But Roma had been in North America that summer and if you recall they were quite potent already, against us and against the MLS all stars.

Steelers7
04-20-2015, 07:41 AM
This. De Guzman was a holding mid DP with the expectations of an attacking creative midfielder. We had him playing a position he never played.

I see a strong similarity between JDG and Bradley, in which Bradley has this expectation that he's a creative attacking mid who will consistently create goals. But like my man Yohan said all he is a box to box midfielder, who needs space to make decisive passes. He's never was, and never will be that player to influence a game from his 1v1 ability, and on the ground tight through balls to the forwards..

All in all, IMO you can't build a team off a box to box midfielder. Too much responsibility defensively, too much responsibility offensively.

JDG went from TFC to some 2nd division Dutch team, then to the Ottawa Fury some 30th rate Canuck team. (sarcasim)
If Bradley were to leave he could join more than likely any top or near the top team in EPL or La Liga. Would he make as much no, but so what. Maybe the system that Vanney runs just doesn't work.

Its really apples and oranges here the 2 aren't comparable.

Perfect question - both players in their primes who would you build your team around? that should tell you all right there as to who you all think is really the 'better' player.

Phil
04-20-2015, 07:52 AM
Does it really matter how much any of them get paid?

They overpaid these players to come here for sure. But the cap hit is all we should be concerned with. Are all players DP level - Yes. Then who cares what their contract is beyond some pin the tail on the scapegoat game we all play.

The only thing that looks clear is the man in charge of the teams performance is not able to coach them to the potential they should be achieving. As well we don't have any experienced defensive depth, the kind needed to compete in this league.

Steelers7
04-20-2015, 07:58 AM
Does it really matter how much any of them get paid?

They overpaid these players to come here for sure. But the cap hit is all we should be concerned with. Are all players DP level - Yes. Then who cares what their contract is beyond some pin the tail on the scapegoat game we all play.

The only thing that looks clear is the man in charge of the teams performance is not able to coach them to the potential they should be achieving. As well we don't have any experienced defensive depth, the kind needed to compete in this league.

Agreed.

If your play backs up that dollar figure you get paid its irrelevant what any player makes. But when the team is where it is currently it will always come into question by everyone, mainly fans since we pay to watch.

MKR
04-20-2015, 08:50 AM
If your play backs up that dollar figure you get paid its irrelevant what any player makes. But when the team is where it is currently it will always come into question by everyone, mainly fans since we pay to watch.

absolutely. the payroll of the team is pretty relevant when you consider that the on field results have been a joke and yet the team has one of the biggest payrolls in the league.

It raises questions as to the effectiveness of team management. Payroll should be reflected by on field performance. It definitely should.

TFC is a total fail.

brad
04-20-2015, 09:19 AM
absolutely. the payroll of the team is pretty relevant when you consider that the on field results have been a joke and yet the team has one of the biggest payrolls in the league.

It raises questions as to the effectiveness of team management. Payroll should be reflected by on field performance. It definitely should.

TFC is a total fail.

I disagree. There is too much focus is on the total payroll in the MLS.

This only has a bearing on 3 players and three players can't consistently overcome the short comings of the rest of the team/tactics

And while those 3 players can and should make the team better. Plugging three good players into a bad team is only going to make a bad team a bit better. It's not going to make a bad team good.

gate7
04-20-2015, 09:48 AM
I wonder if Vancouver would do a 1 for 1 Bradley Laba deal........My guess is that they wouldn't for the reasons that are obvous (laba is producing more for a smaller investment)......Simply said TFCs problems are management and they allways have been.

gate7
04-20-2015, 09:54 AM
correct my math if im wrong but Bradley @ $6,000,000 yr ÷ 34 games(season) = $176,470 per game.So how many games is Bradley and Antiscore gonna miss this year?

Fort York Redcoat
04-20-2015, 10:02 AM
Another year another woulda coulda thread after some losses...

Respect opinions and yours will be respected people.

No need to get butthurt from past disagreements. It's tough enough with the disappointing results without turning the knives on each other.

Fort York Redcoat
04-20-2015, 10:07 AM
Edited title for discussion.

shwade
04-20-2015, 10:21 AM
Does it really matter how much any of them get paid?

They overpaid these players to come here for sure. But the cap hit is all we should be concerned with. Are all players DP level - Yes. Then who cares what their contract is beyond some pin the tail on the scapegoat game we all play.

The only thing that looks clear is the man in charge of the teams performance is not able to coach them to the potential they should be achieving. As well we don't have any experienced defensive depth, the kind needed to compete in this league.

How much is Kaka, Giovinco, Keane etc being paid? Salary is absolutely relevant when compared to what we COULD be getting for the same price or less.

Fort York Redcoat
04-20-2015, 10:32 AM
This. No one is saying Bradley sucks. He's been a disappointment since his first few games last year.
When we only have 3 spots to splurge on and have $60M there are far better ways to spend that money as has been demonstrated by other teams in this league. No one is paying more for their squad than Toronto and no one has less to show for it.
All of this is on Bez of course, who handed the keys to Vanney. We were lining up Giovinco, and have findley, Moore, Dike, Hamilton and possibly Gilberto. We didn't need another forward, we could have spent Altidore $$ on a winger or defender which was sorely needed. The money here is being mismanaged. If we could get Cheyrou as a non-DP then why in fuck do we have altidore making 5 million a year.

Winger? Defender? Keep playing if you're going to start. Who? Who was available and do you think would've come here?

And will this discussion change our present lack of those talents?

shwade
04-20-2015, 10:33 AM
Its still very early in the season. When Bradley isn't tired and firing at 100% we all know his quality. I feel the problem is not with the dps or attacking part of the field, its the defence and keeper. Bendik is very athletic but terrible at reading the game.

Will he ever be not tired though? He's gone for every US friendly, the Gold Cup, World Cup. The only time we've had him at 100% was March - May last year when he had a few months off before.

shwade
04-20-2015, 10:35 AM
Winger? Defender? Keep playing if you're going to start. Who? Who was available and do you think would've come here?

And will this discussion change our present lack of those talents?

Wait...you want me to list defenders and wingers who could have came here? Isn't that Bez's job? With $5 million you don't think we could have gotten a decent winger or defender?? Giovinco wasn't 'available' but they went out and got him. That's their job.

Fort York Redcoat
04-20-2015, 10:38 AM
Wait...you want me to list defenders and wingers who could have came here? Isn't that Bez's job? With $5 million you don't think we could have gotten a decent winger or defender?? Giovinco wasn't 'available' but they went out and got him. That's their job.

So you don't care who it was that came here instead? Just some Defender and winger and that's how we compare value?

C.Ronaldo
04-20-2015, 10:39 AM
Id focus more on invsible Osario and Findely.

I was all for Osario sucess, but he is playing nowhere near the level he needs to be.
And Findley is grossly overpaid

shwade
04-20-2015, 10:42 AM
So you don't care who it was that came here instead? Just some Defender and winger and that's how we compare value?

Umm...I'm not sure if we're going anywhere with this, you clearly aren't understanding what I'm trying to say or you're just being difficult.

What we NEEDED was a winger or defender..agree or disagree?
You want me to sit here and list all the wingers in Europe who could've been lured here with a $5m payday? Uh, I have a job already..that should be left to Bez. My point is that Altidore money could've been spent strengthening positions that we are lacking in when we already have a wealth of forwards.

TFC07
04-20-2015, 10:47 AM
Who cares how much they're making when their cap hit is same as someone like Laba or Edu (who's DP).

Question should be we being asking is: are they worth DP slot and create a buzz in this market?

I agree that we can get better players with amount of money MLSE is willing to pay, but since we're run by Americans now, they will try to sign their own and follow MLS agenda of signing USMNT players. This is a good and bad thing same time (we get more wiggle room from MLS FO to break their "rules", but same time, these USMNT player signings don't generate much interest in this market like European signings like Giovinco).

However, I feel coaching is and always has been biggest issue with this team. I feel these players aren't being fully utilized to their strength and current coach is asking too much from players who make $100,000 to perform like DP's.

Fort York Redcoat
04-20-2015, 10:48 AM
Umm...I'm not sure if we're going anywhere with this, you clearly aren't understanding what I'm trying to say or you're just being difficult.

What we NEEDED was a winger or defender..agree or disagree?
You want me to sit here and list all the wingers in Europe who could've been lured here with a $5m payday? Uh, I have a job already..that should be left to Bez. My point is that Altidore money could've been spent strengthening positions that we are lacking in when we already have a wealth of forwards.


So you think we could've got better value instead of getting the 2 DP's we did.

um. and ok.

It's possible. Now what? Get rid of them now?

I guess they've served the business side of selling tickets already. They still have most of MLS to visit still so they'd prolly stay within the league. Who would you trade them for?

TFC07
04-20-2015, 10:52 AM
Id focus more on invsible Osario and Findely.

I was all for Osario sucess, but he is playing nowhere near the level he needs to be.
And Findley is grossly overpaid

Osorio isn't playing middle of the field which is hurting his "effectiveness" on the field. Osorio is at his best when playing middle of the field like we saw in his first year with TFC.

Bradley signing has hurt Osorio's game since Bradley is more Box-to-Box midfielder while Osorio more attacking mid. Osorio is usual at his best playing along with DM (like Warner) while he plays more advance role in midfield and not to worry too much in defensive end.

Phil
04-20-2015, 10:59 AM
How much is Kaka, Giovinco, Keane etc being paid? Salary is absolutely relevant when compared to what we COULD be getting for the same price or less.

Its all relative to the market though.

I can't even see parity within this league on value. LA is an easy sell - the weather, the city and the fact that they win will certainly reduce pricing demand, your only obstacle is to lure the players from other markets. Toronto with its constant struggle, cold winters, nasty springtime weather along with the fact we have a weaker dollar and other impressions gives us a disadvantage to get players so we overpay.

Your point is valid on that big picture dollars to donuts thing, but really with the way the salary cap works the only real tangible comparison is are we getting the right mix of DP's and what is their effectiveness for the team?

brad
04-20-2015, 11:05 AM
Umm...I'm not sure if we're going anywhere with this, you clearly aren't understanding what I'm trying to say or you're just being difficult.

What we NEEDED was a winger or defender..agree or disagree?
You want me to sit here and list all the wingers in Europe who could've been lured here with a $5m payday? Uh, I have a job already..that should be left to Bez. My point is that Altidore money could've been spent strengthening positions that we are lacking in when we already have a wealth of forwards.

We were handcuffed by the Defoe situation. It's not as cut and dry as just being able to unload him and then go buy whoever we wanted. Any discussion of the Altidore situation needs to factor that in.

brad
04-20-2015, 11:11 AM
I wonder if Vancouver would do a 1 for 1 Bradley Laba deal........My guess is that they wouldn't for the reasons that are obvous (laba is producing more for a smaller investment)......Simply said TFCs problems are management and they allways have been.

Hard to say, but unlikely for the reasons you mentioned + the fact that Bradley will miss a bunch of games for Internationals and Laba will not.

That said, Laba is excelling in a good, well coached side. Bradley is faltering in a poorly coached side. It is entirely possible that if such a switch occurred Laba would be faltering and Bradley would be starring

TFC is the place where good players go to suck. And when they move on, they often do much, much better

shwade
04-20-2015, 12:11 PM
Its all relative to the market though.

I can't even see parity within this league on value. LA is an easy sell - the weather, the city and the fact that they win will certainly reduce pricing demand, your only obstacle is to lure the players from other markets. Toronto with its constant struggle, cold winters, nasty springtime weather along with the fact we have a weaker dollar and other impressions gives us a disadvantage to get players so we overpay.

Your point is valid on that big picture dollars to donuts thing, but really with the way the salary cap works the only real tangible comparison is are we getting the right mix of DP's and what is their effectiveness for the team?

I guess this is what it comes down to as I mentioned in an earlier post as well..being Toronto we have to overpay - KC wasn't willing to spend that much on Bradley. Vancouver is killing it with a significantly lower payroll. It's just frustrating that Bez couldn't do better with the DPs (minus Giovinco and Bradley to an extent).

As far as what to do with them...well we're handcuffed aren't we? We have a history of getting rid of DPs in a season or less, we should be turning the tide now. I understand the Altidore swap was pure desperation but being in this position all the time is demoralizing.

brad
04-20-2015, 12:23 PM
We have approached it wrong. Our management looks at DPs as the answer, not a piece of the puzzle. Build a solid MLS team and push it over the top DP's and you have a Supporters Shield and MLS caliber team.

Build a mediocre team and put three DPs in, you have a mediocre team that might punch above its weight but will still be a mediocre team.

Ultra & Proud
04-20-2015, 12:25 PM
Not fair to judge this yet because I don't think our manager has the team set up to succeed. We are just rolling out the same game plan which exposes the back line, forces a lot of pointless & slow midfield possession, and leave Altidore frozen alone up top. No efforts have been made to correct any of these issues and until they do then I am not judging our DPs.

barticusz
04-20-2015, 01:01 PM
Can we all calm down for a second?

Altidore - he's doing as much or more than Gilberto when we first arrived. Altidore will score in this league, the team just needs to get the ball to him in the box. When's he's gotten the ball in that position he's either drawn fouls or taken his chances and actually hit the net.

Bradley - If you guys don't think this guy is putting it all out there then I'm not sure what you're watching. Lots of people were calling for him to play higher up and he finally did. This resulted in Warner being the guy to distribute from the back and I think it's fair to say we don't have the same composure with Warner playing that role. On top of that, the rest of our team have been brutal. Jackson constantly giving the ball away, Osorio doing very little of anything, bad passes by our full backs etc. When we've controlled the ball in the offensive end, we were most successful in creating chances with both Bradley and Cheyrou distributing.

As for the money they're getting paid, I think they're salaries don't matter as much as what the rest of the team does at the salary they're getting paid.

Milanista
04-20-2015, 01:26 PM
Osorio isn't a winger, our weakness is on the flanks...we are so bad that teams crowd the middle of the park and we have no wingers or full backs that can attack...right now its easy playing TFC and giovinco has been the only threat so far

dupont
04-20-2015, 01:45 PM
We are 1-4 with three points. I wonder if people would be as pessimistic if we had the same three points but getting there with three ties and less losses. I'm not sure... all I know is that we are one of the top threats in the league offensively which is a huge plus. Our defense is terrible though. I actually think the three DPs are working out. Our problem is that they didn't address the backline sufficiently. In MLS, it seems like you don't need to overspend on DPs though for defenders so it's probably something that can still be addressed somehow.

Milanista
04-20-2015, 01:49 PM
and you see no issue with our wing play along with our horrible goalie?


We are 1-4 with three points. I wonder if people would be as pessimistic if we had the same three points but getting there with three ties and less losses. I'm not sure... all I know is that we are one of the top threats in the league offensively which is a huge plus. Our defense is terrible though. I actually think the three DPs are working out. Our problem is that they didn't address the backline sufficiently. In MLS, it seems like you don't need to overspend on DPs though for defenders so it's probably something that can still be addressed somehow.

gate7
04-20-2015, 02:12 PM
Hard to say, but unlikely for the reasons you mentioned + the fact that Bradley will miss a bunch of games for Internationals and Laba will not.

That said, Laba is excelling in a good, well coached side. Bradley is faltering in a poorly coached side. It is entirely possible that if such a switch occurred Laba would be faltering and Bradley would be starring

TFC is the place where good players go to suck. And when they move on, they often do much, much better

good enough for me...At least I can agree that our concerns are more effective in blaming the usual suspect.. Front Office


players might just be scapegoats?

Frings22
04-20-2015, 02:29 PM
Is the same ole same ole every season. Why not employ the Academy to play for minimum wages and use the money to bring in top HT entertainment like AcDc or some other well known pop rock blues bands to play HT and any extra can be used to give away free beer and hot dogs until it runs out. The place will fill up and stay filled. :@)
Someone hire this guy :P

Fort York Redcoat
04-20-2015, 02:40 PM
Is the same ole same ole every season. Why not employ the Academy to play for minimum wages and use the money to bring in top HT entertainment like AcDc or some other well known pop rock blues bands to play HT and any extra can be used to give away free beer and hot dogs until it runs out. The place will fill up and stay filled. :@)

This sounds like what the Argos did. It was schlock then as well.

bigtfcfan
04-20-2015, 03:16 PM
I have been watching Bradley very objectively and really trying to see him play well, but i really can't, he doesn't do anything useful. Laba on the other hand, you don't even have to try to see it, he just shines in most games and its really clear to see how well he does.

barticusz
04-20-2015, 03:45 PM
I have been watching Bradley very objectively and really trying to see him play well, but i really can't, he doesn't do anything useful. Laba on the other hand, you don't even have to try to see it, he just shines in most games and its really clear to see how well he does.

Laba plays one role and that's the destroyer.. get the ball back and pass it off to someone else.. aka Morales who then creates offensive magic. Bradley plays a different game from him and his an overall better player IMO. PS. I love Laba and we need a player like him on this team because we don't have anyone to fill that specific role. At least not anyone that can do it as effectively as him.

These comparisons are pointless. If we put Laba on this team ahead we'd still have the same issues.. The reason is we still don't have a solid RB or our healthy CB pairing.

Why not focus on a bigger problem then Bradley and that's Osorio.. Where has he been this year and for most of last year? He's getting lots of minutes but he's invisible half the time. He doesn't standout defensively and he doesn't create offensive changes. All he's done is pass the ball around. We need more out of him.

Cashcleaner
04-20-2015, 03:56 PM
Does it really matter how much any of them get paid?

They overpaid these players to come here for sure. But the cap hit is all we should be concerned with. Are all players DP level - Yes. Then who cares what their contract is beyond some pin the tail on the scapegoat game we all play.

The only thing that looks clear is the man in charge of the teams performance is not able to coach them to the potential they should be achieving. As well we don't have any experienced defensive depth, the kind needed to compete in this league.


:iagree:

Sure, talking about the cost of talent is a harmless thought exercise, but you said it yourself - ultimately what's the point here? MLSE has more than enough money to cover these salaries - and again, it should be noted that the cash we're spending on Altidore, Bradley, and Gio is just a drop in the bucket compared to the Leafs payroll. As for the specific question of "overpaying" players, let's at least acknowledge that by virtue of living in this great land called Not The USA, we're always going to have to pay a premium to attract player interest. That's a cost almost all Canadian teams have to contend with in pro sports.

bigtfcfan
04-20-2015, 04:25 PM
I think Oso is a fantastic player, when playing centrally. Vanney doesn't seem to be able to find a way to make everyone play where they're supposed to and getting the most out of them.


Laba plays one role and that's the destroyer.. get the ball back and pass it off to someone else.. aka Morales who then creates offensive magic. Bradley plays a different game from him and his an overall better player IMO. PS. I love Laba and we need a player like him on this team because we don't have anyone to fill that specific role. At least not anyone that can do it as effectively as him.

These comparisons are pointless. If we put Laba on this team ahead we'd still have the same issues.. The reason is we still don't have a solid RB or our healthy CB pairing.

Why not focus on a bigger problem then Bradley and that's Osorio.. Where has he been this year and for most of last year? He's getting lots of minutes but he's invisible half the time. He doesn't standout defensively and he doesn't create offensive changes. All he's done is pass the ball around. We need more out of him.

barticusz
04-20-2015, 05:04 PM
I think Oso is a fantastic player, when playing centrally. Vanney doesn't seem to be able to find a way to make everyone play where they're supposed to and getting the most out of them.

Out of curiousity, how do you rate a "fantastic player". What are the qualifications?

Just to go back a little bit you stated that Bradley "doesn't do anything useful." I'd love to know what it is that Osorio has done that has been more useful than Bradley since he's a fantastic player. Let's take a second and back this up with some stats since everyone on here has an opinion but that seems to be the end of the line.

Lets compare Bradley to Oso: Bradley has double the number of tackles per game compared to Oso, over 3 times the number of interceptions per game; more key passes per game; and Oso is dispossessed twice as often as Bradley per game; Bradley nearly doubles the number of passes per game over Oso, while Oso just beats him out on passing percentage by a meager 2%. http://www.whoscored.com/Teams/4186

But Oso is fantastic and Bradley is useless right? If a player like Laba was expected to be a CAM and a DM at the same time you'd all be calling for his head too, yet Bradley is underperforming here. We need the Oso's, Jackson's, the entire defense to step up their game. A single player cannot turn everything around for this team.

DoubleUp
04-21-2015, 06:55 AM
Once again, bad football prevails.:picard: