Promotion and Relegation is Vital

[profit89]

Promotion/relegation will not only work in MLS but is a necessary step.

It has to be done the way the J-League did it. The J-League was going into bankruptcy in 1998. It is now one of the largest and most profitable leagues in the world. It ranks 4th behind Serie A (Italy) in terms of average attendance numbers and it is absolutely booming. How?

From wiki...

The league's management finally realized that they were heading into the wrong direction. In order to solve the problem, the management came up with two solutions.


First, they announced the J.League Hundred Year Vision, in which they aim to make 100 professional football clubs in the nation of Japan by 2092, the hundredth season. The league also encouraged the clubs to promote football or non-football related sports and health activities, to acquire local sponsorships, and to build good relationship with their hometowns at the grass-root level. The league believe that this will allow clubs to bond with their respective cities and towns and get support from local government, companies, and citizens. In other words, clubs will be able to rely on the locals, rather than major national sponsors.


Secondly, the infrastructure of the league was heavily changed in 1999. The league acquired nine clubs from the semi-professional JFL (former) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan_Football_League_%28former%29) and one club from J.League to create a two division system. The topflight became the J.League Division 1 (J1) with 16 clubs while J.League Division 2 (J2) was launched with ten clubs in 1999. The second-tier Japan Football League (former) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan_Football_League_%28former%29), now became third-tier Japan Football League (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan_Football_League).

The criteria for becoming a J2 club was not as strict as the top division. This allowed smaller cities and towns to maintain a club successfully without investing as much as clubs in J1. In fact, clubs like Mito HollyHock (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mito_HollyHock) only draw an average of 3,000 fans a game and receive minimal sponsorship, yet still field fairly competitive teams in J2.


Clubs in Division 2 took time to build their teams for J1 promotion as they also tried to gradually improve the youth systems, the home stadium, the financial status, and the relationship with their hometown. Clubs such as Oita Trinita (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oita_Trinita), Albirex Niigata (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albirex_Niigata), and Kawasaki Frontale (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kawasaki_Frontale) accomplished the scheme successfully. All these clubs originally started as J2 in 1999 and were comparatively small, but they eventually earned J1 promotion in 2002, 2003, and 2004 respectively. Now they are all well established in the topflight.


The league also began to follow European game formats as time went on. Originally, due to the cultural unease[citation needed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed)] of neither side coming out as the winner of a game, extra time (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extra_time), golden goal rules (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_goal), and penalty shoot-outs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penalty_shootout_%28football%29) were employed for regular league matches. Penalty shoot-outs were abolished in the beginning of the 1999 season, and extra time was abolished in 2002 for J2 and 2003 for J1.

[a.ungaro]

this sounds like exactly what we need...but north americans will refuse to watch anything less then a #1 league...

[Brooker]

you think for one second they would relegate New York and replace them with some buttfuck american city?

never gonna happen.

[profit89]

this sounds like exactly what we need...but north americans will refuse to watch anything less then a #1 league...

well then north americans are stupid and i'm hoping that garber realizes that the typical north american fan is not the kind of fans MLS wants anyway

[profit89]

you think for one second they would relegate New York and replace them with some buttfuck american city?

never gonna happen.

yeah i do.. need to let go of that north american nfl (garbage) mentality

[Brooker]

u do? why on earth would they do that?

[profit89]

Because the J-League example is already proven. They've been to hell and back. They're larger than Texas Steel now. Well, you know what i mean.

[profit89]

you think for one second they would relegate New York and replace them with some buttfuck american city?

never gonna happen.

A New York team that cant maintion topflight status, doesnt deserve to be present in the topflight as a bottom-feeder.

If you want the best league, with the best teams, best fans, then you need a system of weeding out.




.

[Brooker]

they're building them a brand new stadium that costs lord knows how much, and you think they're gonna relegate them to the USL?

[profit89]

they're building them a brand new stadium that is costs lord knows how much, and you think they're gonna relegate them to the USL?

It wouldnt be USL, it would be MLS-2... and they would have to earn they're way up to MLS-1, if they were ever to be relegated in the first place.

We're not talking USL, we're talking a viable MLS-2

I have no doubt that they wopuld make there way up to topflight given the stadium and revenue.. But they woudl have to do things right.. You see that's the key, it forces teams to do things the right way.

[werewolf]

it would be incentive for teams to win, that is for sure.

[profit89]

Read up on the J-League. Trust me, it's a great model.

[profit89]

it would be incentive for teams to win, that is for sure.

Exactly. And when you do get to the topflight, can you then imagine the revenues. They would go through the roof. All the teams would be playing for something. Even at the bottom of the table.

[jloome]

u do? why on earth would they do that?

It's a specious argument to start off with, Brooker. When was the last time you saw a big London club relegated?

That's the point: when it's allowed to develop naturally on a national basis without prejudice to size of community, the larger communities benefit from larger fan drawing bases and better television deals (due to larger consumer bases for advertising dollars) and therefore can field bigger teams -- or even multiple teams. ergo Manchester (pop 3 million) is effectively home to four premiership teams (wigan is really fucking close and so is Bolton); and that's with Liverpool and hour away, also Blackpool, macclesfield, Blackburn Rovers etc etc.

Manchester proper, however, dominates above all those, which is why it gets 74,000 a game.

In London, it's so fucking big that they can put six major premiership teams in (and I'm not really counting anything west of Teddington or East of West Ham) and still none of them are likely to go down.

Let's put it in perspective:
* MLS expands to 20 teams, with philly and seattle, plus lets say vancouver and St. Louis. But it actually goes to a 22 team premier league, by taking out two from USL, its top two teams.

Then, you start by relegating only two teams. The likelihood that LA or NY is going to finish 21st or 22nd seems highyl unlikely, but the new structure will create

* Numerous local cup rivalries between MLS Premier and USL 1 AND 2 Teams, because the lower level teams know they potentially have the chance of moving up eventually and proving cup wins aren't flukes.

* races to not be in the final four or five in points in the second half of the MLS season, due to the imminent risk of relegation.

* The chance to scale the size of the team, because three divisions allows for way more variety of community size to support it.

[Brooker]

i like the idea im just saying i doubt it will happen netime soon.... if ever.

[profit89]

part of this system mind you involves removing the salary cap somewhat or at least have it based on how much revenue you bring in.

without promotion/relegation you get teams like kc/columbus hanging around, with their pathetic fan support... under a system of relegation, if they were ever demoted they would have a hard time getting back up, which is what we want... we want to avoid pathetically supported teams being in the topflight.





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[Don Julio]

Why, on Earth, companies/investors/owners who bought MLS teams for $5-$40 M dollars would suddenly decide that they want the opportunity to risk their investment - with no tangible upside - based on poor performance from the team is beyond me.

[Brooker]

^^^ QFT

[Keegan]

The OWNERS will NEVER agree on this. Why? Because they want big money, they don't want to have to care about winning. Imagine them being forced to compete to stay in the top division *shudder*. FUCK THOSE MOTHERFUCKERS

[bimmer]

I don't hate the idea, but I HIGHLY doubt it would work.

Japan is a completely different market from North America. If MLS was the TOP dog in NA, maybe, just maybe this could work. But as we all know, MLS is 4th place at best. As soon as a city has its team relegated, all their fans (excluding the hardcore ones) will switch over to NFL, MLB, NBA, etc. I doubt they will be able to accumulate enough revenue in a lower division in order to survive for more than a handful of years without making it back to the top division.

Not to mention what others have already said... what kind of owners would invest so much in something which could turn out to be worth nothing? :noidea:

[Flipityflu]

so you expect an owner to pay a huge expansion fee (its now looking to be up to $40 million) for the good chance of being relegated in its first season, losing any money it could generate from tv, and probably lose its fan support before it is even established.

will not work.

[Keystone FC]

Read up on the J-League. Trust me, it's a great model.

That's just it. It's a model that fits Japan but wouldn't work here.
I mean it may work at some level over here but you have to take into account other factors that lead to the creation of the J League and J2.
1) The J League was formed from the old JFL (Corporate League) which had been around since the end of WW2. They had a fan base and corporate backing from the get go.
2) J2 gets it teams from the Regional leagues (Kyushu, Hokkaido, etc...) this would mean that the MLS2 would have to get teams from the USL AND Semi-Pro leagues (NPSL, USASA) if the MLS wanted to go that route.
3) Geography...Japan is about the size of California with as many people as the US has. This allows for several clubs in several divisions to prosper in one city.
4) Facilities...There are a few clubs that use different stadiums throughout there city. This is due to that most of the stadiums are not SSS and can have events that conflict with their schedule. This also allows for fans to see their club on certain dates without traveling as far. It would be like TFC would use BMO, Varsity, and for big matches Rogers Centre.

[jmorgs88]

i think it all boils down to this, we would all love to see this system set up, the league run the same way it is in london, but it would not work in north america nor will it ever happen because of the different mentality towards sport

[Cashcleaner]

I never seem to hear any good arguments for creating a system of promotion and relegation here in North America.

Just because it's used elsewhere, doesn't mean it will work here. Furthermore, people are failing to understand how imperfect European soccer is in terms of league structures and organisation.

Why not get out of England's shadow and acknowledge the unique position pro sports and economics have in North America?

[Flipityflu]

i don't understand either Cash, and i lived in England for 15 years. i understand even less considering we were in last place in our first season, and are seriously stumbling this season. quite frankly, most of you promoting relegation would problably be the first to jump off the wagon the moment we went down.

[profit89]

I don't hate the idea, but I HIGHLY doubt it would work.

Japan is a completely different market from North America. If MLS was the TOP dog in NA, maybe, just maybe this could work. But as we all know, MLS is 4th place at best. As soon as a city has its team relegated, all their fans (excluding the hardcore ones) will switch over to NFL, MLB, NBA, etc. I doubt they will be able to accumulate enough revenue in a lower division in order to survive for more than a handful of years without making it back to the top division.

Not to mention what others have already said... what kind of owners would invest so much in something which could turn out to be worth nothing? :noidea:

The fans that switch are not real soccer fans then to begin with.. and we dont want them or such cities to play in topflight.. you need a system to weed out the phony cities.

[profit89]

One gentleman on mls-rumors blog suggested the following method... also a great idea...

"The best course of action is for MLS to expand to 18 teams and stop expanding for about 3-5 years. Allowing the new MLS teams to establish their fan bases.

Meanwhile cities that didn't make the cut but want MLS teams can use the moratorium to form stadium and franchise plans. Once 6-10 cities have these plans in place you expand by creating MLS-2. If MLS-2 has less than 10 teams then they play as two separate leagues until MLS-2 has 10 teams. Once that happens promote/relegate one team. Expand MLS-2 once it hits 14 teams promote/demote 2 teams,and when it hits 18 you do 3 teams.

After that if you want 2, 20 team leagues you promote two teams,and relegate none one year giving you 4 MLS-2 spots to fill. Then if desired add USL as the 3rd division and lower." - anonymous

[professor]

I'm not in favour of a promotion/relegation setup simply because I don't believe that N American pro football is "mature" enough to support the concept

take a look at some of the cities and venues of the USL
http://www.uslsoccer.com/teams/index_E.html

The infrastructure of some of these organizations won't have the resources to step in to the MLS if and when necessary

MLS has other issues to resolve before undertaking promotion/relegation schemes, i.e. a single table, raising the cap, expanding rosters, simplifying the rules, improving the quality of officiating

[flatpicker]

MLS has other issues to resolve before undertaking promotion/relegation schemes, i.e. a single table, raising the cap, expanding rosters, simplifying the rules, improving the quality of officiating

This is what I am thinking...

These are more pressing issues right now. Once they are sorted then we will be in better shape for a relegation system.
This will take several years.

[ensco]

Need to recognize that promotion/relegation won't occur as long as there is corporate ownership (ie MLSE,AEG etc).

I don't know what the ownership structure is in Japan, but corporations can't really accept the risk of relegation, even if it's unlikely. Relegation does happen once in a while to the big clubs, too - PSG escaped by a whisker this year, also ask a Manchester United, Leeds or Juventus fan.

It's why all the big euro clubs are either community-owned, or billionaire playthings. It's why any thinking person would be derisive about MLSE's "fact-finding" mission in the UK (aka the Richard Peddie self-aggrandizement tour).

[Ossington Mental Youth]

IF it does happen (which it wont) it will happen a long long long time from now

[djking2]

The fans that switch are not real soccer fans then to begin with.. and we dont want them or such cities to play in topflight.. you need a system to weed out the phony cities.

You may only want "real soccer" fans but the current owner/investors of the MLS would gladly sell tickets to anyone willing to show up. It's also pretty obvious that the quality of the game is dependent on more fans not less.

North American or MLS "relegation" is based on ticket sales. Franchises move when the fanbase can no longer support the existence of a club. Columbus will be the next club "relgated" unless there's a miraculous growth in attendance.

[Blazer]

Why, on Earth, companies/investors/owners who bought MLS teams for $5-$40 M dollars would suddenly decide that they want the opportunity to risk their investment - with no tangible upside - based on poor performance from the team is beyond me.

Bingo. It will drive up salary spending on hogh profiled players to circumvent relegation and leave MLS bankrupt. Nobody wants that This league is not yet ready for such a step.

[ecantona7]

well then north americans are stupid and i'm hoping that garber realizes that the typical north american fan is not the kind of fans MLS wants anyway
as long as they got money, garber don't care

[Blazer]

well then north americans are stupid and i'm hoping that garber realizes that the typical north american fan is not the kind of fans MLS wants anyway

Wow! What a dumb comment.

Maybe you’re right actually. Maybe MLS should stop marketing to the fans of their respective franchises and go after European markets like Madrid, Munich, and hell why not even Man U?! I’m sure they’d love the breed of football being played over here and choose MLS soccer over their frugal game.

Bonehead alert!

[Stencils]

Someone mentioned the geography issue in terms of population concentration, but it's also an issue travel wise. Some of the smaller clubs simply couldn't cover the cost of travelling the huge distances required.

NA is just too big with too small a supporting base for the sport to handle anything like this... for now.

[flatpicker]

^ geography definitely is a big roadblock.

Also regarding geography:
While the idea of a single table is interesting I would still like to keep East and West divisions.
I like that set-up, but I would prefer have less teams make the playoffs.
That way the champions would be far more deserving then some team that squeaks in and upsets a team that had a brilliant season but is suddenly hit by injuries in the post season.
The best would be to simply have the top team from East and West declared champs of their region (with no playoffs) and then play each other for the Cup.
I think there is enough balance throughout the league to keep the race interesting for most of the season.

[Blazer]

^ This isn’t an interesting enough scenario for a playoff horny continent – having 2 teams at the end of the season battle a presumable aggregate?! People wanna see the drama of a 2/3 week playoff that may include their Cinderella pick(s). The top 4 teams should advance to the playoffs and seeded 1 through 4 regardless of their conference. All games aggregate and bada-boob-bada-bing, you have your champ.

[trane]

I agree that promotion relgation is vital for the health of the league, but the strutucure of the leage corporate owned franchise suggest that it will never be approved, there is not financial self interest to do so. But as , I think Toronto Bhoy said in another thread, when you put in relegation, it makes every football decision a business decision, meaning putting a good club together is essential for the bottom line. In north americe it is not, particulalry when you have loyal fans like us. [ This is the reason I agree with Barbarez, you cannot support blindly it is not good for the health of the club]

[RPB_RED_NATION_RPB]

not gona happen!

[I_AM_CANADIAN]

Would anyone here be surprised to know that the Football League started out with only twelve teams? A three-tiered system like the Football League uses today requires the kind of local support that North America just doesn't have right now. Most of the teams that are already in MLS don't fill half their stadiums, you can't expect that teams in "MLA Division Two" are going to get good support judging by that.

[Lateralus]

Maybe promotion and relegation wouldn't work in North America, but we could always make things interesting.
These days we've seen countless cities wanting an MLS club and thinking they deserved one. Well IF, and I mean IF, the MLS took over the USL they could make things interesting by having the USL champ have the option to buy into the MLS. They could also refuse if the current USL teams don't think they are ready and move the option to the 2nd place team or just cancel the promotion for that year.

Garber said he wanted between 20-24 teams so it could be interesting to see something like that happend.

Now I know they'd have to add a bunch of prospective teams that want to get in such as St-Louis, New York 2 and Atlanta but I think it would be fun to see these prospective MLS team duke it out for an MLS place instead of having Garber hand over franchises.

Or if the MLS didn't want to add any more teams we can have a promotion/relegation system with the winner of the USL division having the option to replace the worst MLS team by paying the franchise fee to them, that way those poor teams don't lose their 40 million dollars or whatever it is.

I'm not saying this would work, actually it probably wouldn't...but for a North American league, if you're gonna have any Relegation you'd have to compensate the loser big time.

[profit89]

If you're aim is to convert already soccer fans to be MLS fans then promotion/relegation is vital. Moving towards the fifa international standards is the only way to get footie fans to follow MLS.

If you're aim is to compete with baseball, american football, and basketball, then it is definitely not something worth pursuing. I think all of these sports are garbage but that's just my opinion.

I'm not sure which way Garber falls but i'm hoping the former. There is no use, again imo, in trying to follow/emulate other north american sports (which again, i believe are all garbage sports compared to soccer, bet hey, what do i know).

[loconet]

..they want big money, they don't want to have to care about winning. Imagine them being forced to compete to stay in the top division *shudder*....

Yup! That is precisely part of the main problem with all North American pro sports. It seems to me it is a very short-sighted way of running the leagues.

[profit89]

From "Timbers" on bigsoccer.com forums...

The possibility of relegation did not seem to deter Gullit and Hicks from spending hundreds of millions on Liverpool (an amount that could be used to buy all 14 MLS teams)... nor did it deter Malcolm Glazer from taking over Man U. Meanwhile, the Colorado Rapids owner tried to buy Arsenal, and a former San Jose Earthquake owner bought Portsmouth.

While the common argument against promotion & relegation ever being implemented in US soccer is that American investors won't invest in a team if there is a possiblity of being relegated to a lower division, these American investors have already demonstrated that they are willing to take a few risks (and you could argue that any investor willing to take a chance on American soccer is already taking a big risk). So, maybe they will be okay with the possibility of relegation in MLS, too. (Also: MLS already has a few foreign owners that are accustomed to the idea. For instance, Red Bull Salzburg and Chivas Guadalajara both face the possibility of relegation if they fail to perform).

Meanwhile, the possibility of PROMOTION could attract additional investors to Second Division teams. (For instance: USL teams would be worth a lot more if such a possibility existed. A team like Portland could go out and sign some big-name players, with the real possibility of a significant return on their investment.)

Ultimately, if "MLS-2" were to be created: the financial risk of of possible relegation from "MLS-1" to "MLS-2" wouldn't be that great, since MLS is still single-entity and the league pays the player salaries. Even if the single-entity setup were to change, it is likely that teams in "MLS-2" would still get a share of TV revenue and league endorsement deals. (And there is no reason that a team in MLS-2 couldn't still win the MLS Cup, if it's open to lower division teams just as the English League Cup & FA Cup are).

[Fort York Redcoat]

preacher=you
choir=me

Look at our standing in the league at its halfway point and tell me our next game is vital. It is only if people care more about the supporters shield (league winner in my book) instead of the MLS cup. With drastic change (which isn't difficult in this league) a team can go from worst to playoff spot and win "the League". It's at this time when we've been ousted from a real tournament like Champions league that I yearn for a full table to bring more meaning to our next league game. People talk about "must wins" every week but most times its only for the win on the day. If I didn't love watching the team so much the league format would really turn me away.

[profit89]

promotion/relegation is only a matter of time... Maybe 10-15 years.

People keep saying no investor wants to lose after investing millions... That is offset by investors who would be attracted to MLS-2 in the hopes of promotion, they would invest wisely as per tfc (for example). They want a return on investment, they will be forced to do things "right."

You don't invest, you get relegated/stay in MLS-2 !!!... Europe has it right !!

Let's not be ignorant because we were brought up in this crappy north american mentality re league structures.

[LucaGol]

Has anyone claiming to know what the "North American Sports fan" wants...ie. Playoffs..no relegation...stopped to consider the possibility that they might actually enjoy the fear/pain/pleasure of watching a league where teams will get relegated.

Most of the investors in MLS are soccer savvy...I'm almost certain that when they put their money into the league that they were briefed on the potential for a relegation/promotion system to unfold.

[profit89]

good point luca

[OneLoveOneEric]

The trend in North American sports right now seems to be to bunch up a whole bunch of shitty teams in the middle of the league to create the illusion that they are contenders (I'm looking at you, NHL). For some reason some people like to be toyed with rather than just getting the shit teams out of the race.

[profit89]

without promotion/relegation you get teams like kc and columbus hanging around forever... with their cheap owners who refuse on investing in the team amd their lack of fan base... they would eventually be relegated and would have to earn their way back into topflight. How?.. By INVESTING !!

[profit89]

The trend in North American sports right now seems to be to bunch up a whole bunch of shitty teams in the middle of the league to create the illusion that they are contenders (I'm looking at you, NHL). For some reason some people like to be toyed with rather than just getting the shit teams out of the race.

Excellent point Eric. North American sports are shit.

[OneLoveOneEric]

Excellent point Eric. North American sports are shit.

I wouldn't go THAT far :)
I can at least appreciate leagues like MLB where at least you have achieved something by making the playoffs. But this idea of throwing half the teams in the league into the playoffs, and getting excited if a shit team makes a run at the title is absurd to me. Why bother playing the regular season?
And why have such a massive gulf in talent between teams making the playoffs? If you're going to have playoffs, it should be for the elite teams in the league.

[profit89]

162 games a year. What a joke. Sorry dude, i just cant get into baseball.




.

[OneLoveOneEric]

^^^Not at all. As you increase the number of games, you decrease the chance of a team fluking their way through (mathematically, at least).

[tfcleeds]

without promotion/relegation you get teams like kc and columbus hanging around forever...

As someone already alluded to, not necessarily. In NA sports, if you don't have the fanbase, you move to another city...

[Alixir]

I agree with the promotion/relegation deal.
I have been a seaon ticket holder for J Leagues JEF United for over 8 years before I moved back to Canada last April, and having promotion and relegation makes the league more exciting.
But with that being said it looks like my JEF United is heading for relegation for the first time in our history this season :(

[OneLoveOneEric]

As someone already alluded to, not necessarily. In NA sports, if you don't have the fanbase, you move to another city...

^^^Or your shit, fan-less franchise is propped up for eternity by a league not willing to admit a mistake (nudge nudge again, NHL)

[profit89]

As someone already alluded to, not necessarily. In NA sports, if you don't have the fanbase, you move to another city...

You lose much more money and it's much more risky in having to relocate a team than in promoting an already proven winning formula from an MLS-2.

[TheRenter]

fingers crossed for this to ever be a possibility one day...:idea:

[tfcleeds]

You lose much more money and it's much more risky in having to relocate a team than in promoting an already proven winning formula from an MLS-2.

I like the idea of promotion/relegation being adopted by MLS as much as anyone else, but I just don't see it happening, for reasons people have already given in this thread. It would be interesting to see how the MLS-2 clubs DID fare at the gate, if they were considered a second-tier franchise in the league, with no hope of winning the League in a particular year. It just isn't engrained in the N.A. sports psyche, and North Americans in general will not support what they see as being a second rate league.

The only exception I can see currently is US college sports, where a team in a lesser conference, like the MAC or SunBelt, will still draw 20,000-30,000 to a gridiron football game, given their team has no realistic chance of winning a national championship or being in a premier bowl game. Of course, with conference realignment, and program success, it is possible that these schools can one day join a "bigger" conference, which in some ways, is like a form of promotion. But then again, football is so much more a part of American culture than soccer is, it is practically religion in the US, so that is why this can work...

[profit89]

... It just isn't engrained in the N.A. sports psyche, and North Americans in general will not support what they see as being a second rate league.


USL numbers having been rising steadily. The league is healthier than it has ever been and growing.

[Cashcleaner]

Australia doesn't have promotion/relegation either? Call me crazy, but I'm sensing a pattern develop. If only I could put my finger on it...

http://64.13.252.151/forums/%5BIMG%5Dhttp://img.photobucket.com/albums/v221/Cashcleaner/NorthAmerica.png%5B/IMG%5Dhttp://img.photobucket.com/albums/v221/Cashcleaner/NorthAmerica.png


http://64.13.252.151/forums/%5BIMG%5Dhttp://img.photobucket.com/albums/v221/Cashcleaner/Australia.png%5B/IMG%5Dhttp://img.photobucket.com/albums/v221/Cashcleaner/Australia.png
http://64.13.252.151/forums/%5BIMG%5Dhttp://img.photobucket.com/albums/v221/Cashcleaner/UnitedKingdom.png%5B/IMG%5D

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v221/Cashcleaner/UnitedKingdom.png

Well, I give up. I don't what the difference is here. :rolleyes:

[profit89]

Russia has promotion/relegation

http://thebreakthrough.org/blog/2008/05/02/russia%20map.gif

[profit89]

And A-League (Australia) is implementing a plan for promotion/relegation

[Beach_Red]

The biggest thing working against relegation is really the huge competition for fans from other sports. I don't know what it's like in Europe or Japan, but do they get 80,000 people out for college games? Do they have a hundred college teams in every sport? Are there three other major team sports already well established (can't really count hockey as it isn't that established in much of the US)?

If halfway through the season three quarters of the 'single table' was already eliminated there are just way too many other sports to spend money on.

I think soccer will move up to and be even with the top two sports in most US markets, and I think it wil happen fairly soon, but it can't be structured too differently while it's still trying to get established.

Someday, though, sure, the MLS will look just like soccer leagues in the rest of the world. It'll be a little tricky figuring out exactly when to make that change, but it's not now.

[Dunc]

I'd be extremely happy if there ever were promotion and relegation in US/Canada soccer, and an eventual merger of the MLS and USL.

I want the fear of relegation to be a fire under MLSE's ass, I want them to have a motivation to do their best to give us a fucking good side to support. Relegation as a possibility is favourable to us as TFC fans because it makes sure we aren't going to be another Maple Leafs that can just tumble along in profitable mediocrity. We know that we're likely going to sell out every game whether we're in first or last place under the current system.

Promotion and relegation battles are one of the greatest things in football. Maybe it's because I don't support a top three side, but every English premiership season I don't give a shit about who wins, but I find myself captivated by the relegation battles even when I'm a neutral in them.

I really think we are missing out in the MLS by not having fairytale promotion stories, all those nail-biting final games of the season that you rarely if ever find in any sport other than football.

Also, some teams just don't belong in the top tier. With a dissolution of the current extent of MLS' profit-sharing rules, we'd likely see smaller markets like KC and Columbus take their rightful place as second-tier teams, provided lower teams prove that they can replace them and have a shot at the first tier.

Maybe rather than a straight relegation system, maybe the bottom two of the MLS and the top two of 2.MLS have a playoff. That way we'll probably only see movement if it's justified.

I think from a supporters' point of view, pro. and rel. are in our best interests. If TFC ever took the fall, we know we'd still be here, and we'd have promotion to strive for. Being relegated isn't the end of the world. If it scares off casual fans... then in my opinion fuck them, let them walk and come back when we make it back to the top.

[profit89]

Beach, we're talking long term here, of course. Expansion has to happen slowly and promotion/relegation has to be implemented slowly.

It's funny how the Americans, a typically capitalist society, use a league structure model revolving around parity and the Europeans, typically viewed as socialists, use promotion and relegation, a system devised to weed out the mismanaged and under-supported crappy teams in a survival-of-the-fittest way. Very odd.

[profit89]

I'd be extremely happy if there ever were promotion and relegation in US/Canada soccer, and an eventual merger of the MLS and USL.

I want the fear of relegation to be a fire under MLSE's ass, I want them to have a motivation to do their best to give us a fucking good side to support. Relegation as a possibility is favourable to us as TFC fans because it makes sure we aren't going to be another Maple Leafs that can just tumble along in profitable mediocrity. We know that we're likely going to sell out every game whether we're in first or last place under the current system.

Promotion and relegation battles are one of the greatest things in football. Maybe it's because I don't support a top three side, but every English premiership season I don't give a shit about who wins, but I find myself captivated by the relegation battles even when I'm a neutral in them.

I really think we are missing out in the MLS by not having fairytale promotion stories, all those nail-biting final games of the season that you rarely if ever find in any sport other than football.

Also, some teams just don't belong in the top tier. With a dissolution of the current extent of MLS' profit-sharing rules, we'd likely see smaller markets like KC and Columbus take their rightful place as second-tier teams, provided lower teams prove that they can replace them and have a shot at the first tier.

Maybe rather than a straight relegation system, maybe the bottom two of the MLS and the top two of 2.MLS have a playoff. That way we'll probably only see movement if it's justified.

I think from a supporters' point of view, pro. and rel. are in our best interests. If TFC ever took the fall, we know we'd still be here, and we'd have promotion to strive for. Being relegated isn't the end of the world. If it scares off casual fans... then in my opinion fuck them, let them walk and come back when we make it back to the top.

Totally agree. 100%.

[profit89]

Being relegated isn't the end of the world. If it scares off casual fans... then in my opinion fuck them, let them walk and come back when we make it back to the top.

:iagree:

[Beach_Red]

It's funny how the Americans, a typically capitalist society, use a league structure model revolving around parity and the Europeans, typically viewed as socialists, use promotion and relegation, a system devised to weed out the mismanaged and under-supported crappy teams in a survival-of-the-fittest way. Very odd.

That's true. Of course, sports in the US has always been riddled with anti-trust lawsuits and "special" considerations. Most teams and leagues have rather 'interesting' pasts and it's only been fairly recently that sports team ownership has been completely corporate in the US.

But it really looks like the trend is towards globalization (duh!) and that will probably hold true in sports. The US has tried to export its brand of football and that's been a failure everywhere. Is baseball still as popular in Latin America and Asia as it used to be? Hockey has really maxed out.

Within twenty years we're going to see a single table league in North America with teams good enough to compete with any in the world. We'll probably see some kind of super-league competition, too.

Of course, the playing seasons will have to line up, too, when wil that happen?

[Cashcleaner]

Russia has promotion/relegation

http://thebreakthrough.org/blog/2008/05/02/russia%20map.gif

Yes, and using the Russian Premier League as an example for a financially sound and secure sports organisation is probably not a great idea. That said, their logos are kick-ass...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/3/32/CSKA.png

[profit89]

Today MLS Commissioner Don Garber is expected to announce a firm expansion plan which would include 20-24 clubs. (http://www.canada.com/montrealgazette/news/story.html?id=3b7c2eed-dac1-4396-9d2c-44a746fde3d1)

The question is this: Once MLS has 24 clubs what does it do with the other investors who might want in?

The conventional wisdom is further expansion.

Just let 'em in right?

Wrong.

If MLS does decide to go to a single table as has been rumored then expanding beyond 20 or 24 would make the schedule too long.

One needs to understand the reasons promotion and relegation happened in other countries to understand why it is inevitable here.

Promotion and relgation were a solution to a problem that has not existed in the US. The problem of having too many suitable clubs and not enough spots in the league to accomodate them.


Once demand for entry into MLS outstrips supply of spots in the top flight then the solution of pro/rel becomes relevant.

The conventional wisdom that it wouldn't happen is based on a league that 10 years ago had to go begging for investment. We are no longer that league. Just a few short years ago the idea that new clubs would come into the league selling out the capacity of their stadiums and there would be billionairs clamoring for MLS clubs would have been considered at best, extremely optomistic.

Now is a new day.

Evidence?

LA Galaxy jerseys outsell every other team and sport in this country.

Toronto FC has a waiting list of for people wanting season tickets

Seattle has already sold 16,000 season tickets and likely to also have a waiting list come 2009

DC United ratings on local TV higher than the baseball, Washington Nationals

All this leads to new investors wanting in MLS.

Indeed, should a limit of 24 clubs be imposed then the natural and most logical thing for MLS to do would be to open up a 2nd division within its business structure (rather than try to absorb the USL) in order to let in new investors. An MLS2 if you will with similar but less lucrative TV and sponsorship deals.

Buying into MLS at that point would mean buying into the possibility rather than the certainty that you could be in the top flight and thus give these new clubs something to work hard to achieve: MLS1 status.

MLS is not the NFL. It is not baseball, nor basketball either. It is a soccer league. As such its system should conform to the standard way soccer leagues are run around the world.

One of the reasons MANY of us are fans of this game is due to its international nature. The fact that it is played the same way all over the world.

The reason so many pine for promotion and relegation in MLS is precisely because promotion and relegation are part of the game EVERYWHERE in the world, not just in Europe.

Soccer is a game which has international standards and rules governing it. However it is also one with shared international themes.

We all eye the passionate fans of the sports in other countries and wish we saw more of that here but let's be honest. There is not a lot on the line for missing the playoffs.

The passion of fans week to week all around the world is partly due to the fact that every game matters. Every point counts on whether your club stays up in or goes down from the top flight.

MLS Commissioner Don Garber is aware of this (mms://a1503.v115042.c11504.g.vm.akamaistream.net/7/1503/11504/v0001/mlbmls.download.akamai.com/11504/2008/open/allstar/072308_mlsasg_commish_presser.wmv), as is Deputy Commissioner and Garber's likely successor, Ivan Gazidis.

They also are keenly aware that this is an issue which has kept fans of soccer in the US from becoming MLS fans. Imagine for a moment if those who passionately and monetarily support clubs like Manchester United, Boca Juniors, or even Everton and Tigres, in the USA decided to support their MLS clubs.

That is the dream. And that is a dream that will only come about from a raise in the credibility of MLS amongst those fans according to the statements made by Don Garber in yesterday's State of the League Address.

MLS is one of only two leagues in the world without promotion and relegation. The other one, the far younger, Australian A-League recently discussed plans for a promotion and relegation system. (http://australian-a-league-update.blogspot.com/2008/05/ben-buckley-plans-for-promotion-and.html)


You can bet MLS suits are watching this closely for if the A-League, a far less stable league financially than MLS, in as competitive sports market as Australia can adopt promotion and relegation then MLS with it's billionaire owners can as well.

In Australia soccer is behind much bigger sports such as Aussie Rules Football, Cricket, two codes of Rugby and motorsports in terms of popularly. In other words it is a market not unlike the US and the A-league has far less well heeled investors queuing up to invest.

American investors understand promotion/relegation.

One need only look at the amount of American investors involved in owning, operating or investing in clubs in England.

Indeed MLS or "would be" MLS investors such as Jorge Vegara, Stan Kronke, Dietrich Mateschitz, Paul Allen, George Gillett, and David Beckham already understand it.

More importantly, American soccer fans understand promotion and relegation and it is one reason many are fans of the game overseas.

It is the reason that 60-80,000 turn our to watch storied teams from other leagues where it exists. It is also why many have stayed away from MLS.

Don Garber has explained that the league is going to be aggressive in pursuing and converting these fans, many of which are unfairly dubbed "Eurosnobs" to MLS fans.

The reason is simple. They already get the game, their dollars are currently supporting the sport, albeit overseas and they are an easier convert than Joe Six Pack American Sports fan who takes what Jim Rome has to say as gospel.

For MLS to gain new fans in America it will have to become as Garber suggested, more credible and relevant in the eyes of these fans.

Expansion makes the league more relevant to those currently without a team.

Promotion and relegation makes the league more credible to those who are fans of the international game.

The day when a Fire jersey is as revered among these fans as a Celtic or Club America one is when MLS has arrived. And that will only happen when MLS becomes a meritocratic league like every other one in the world and adopts promotion and relegation.

The Australian A-League knows this. And MLS knows this. When they will be prepared to implement it is the only question.



--RK for MLS-Rumors.net

http://www.mls-rumors.net/2008/07/editorial-why-mls-will-eventually-adopt.html

[profit89]

^bump

[I_AM_CANADIAN]

What happened in England is that more and more clubs were trying to gain membership into the Football League, and they couldn't accomodate them all into one schedule, so they set up the tiered system. And the sport was so popular that they couldn't just limit the whole league system to just twenty or so teams.

Other posters in this thread seem to think that MLS should buy up a bunch of USL-2 clubs that get a couple hundred fans per game and expect that to work out. In North America, we haven't got anywhere close to the kind of fan interest that can justify and support having 30+ teams and multiple divisions.

And I hope there's nobody Australian to offend on here, but nobody cares about the A-League.

[profit89]

What happened in England is that more and more clubs were trying to gain membership into the Football League, and they couldn't accomodate them all into one schedule, so they set up the tiered system. And the sport was so popular that they couldn't just limit the whole league system to just twenty or so teams.

Other posters in this thread seem to think that MLS should buy up a bunch of USL-2 clubs that get a couple hundred fans per game and expect that to work out. In North America, we haven't got anywhere close to the kind of fan interest that can justify and support having 30+ teams and multiple divisions.

And I hope there's nobody Australian to offend on here, but nobody cares about the A-League.

That's what is happening with MLS.. Can't limit the whole league to 18 teams.

Would you rather not have those towns get a team at all... or would you rather have a system that tests out and rewards those towns that are capable of managing a team properly, starting up from the grassroots, with good fan support... and at the same time a system that eliminates from the topflight the bottom-feeders that drag it behind. And at the same time a system that makes teams, from top to bottom, play for something in every single match from start to end.

Forget the USL.. we're talking about developing a viable MLS-2 from scratch... And promotion and relegation could work along the lines of the Mexican league: Only certain teams, who obtain certification by meeting certain league requirements are capable of promotion.

Wiki: "At the end of a season, after the apertura and clausura tournaments, one team is relegated to the next lower division, Primera División A (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primera_Divisi%C3%B3n_A), and one team from that division is promoted and takes the place left open by the relegated team. Currently, the relegated team is determined by computing the points-per-game-played ratio for each team, considering all the games played by the team during the last three seasons (six tournaments). The team with the lower ratio is relegated. For teams recently promoted, only the games played since their promotion are considered (two or four tournaments). The team promoted from Primera Division A is the winner of a two-leg match between the champions of the apertura and clausura tournaments of that division. If a team becomes the champion in both tournaments, it is automatically promoted."

[I_AM_CANADIAN]

That would lose tons of money for the league, people have to appreciate that MLS don't actually have very much of it. And right now, we don't have even ten markets that really look like they could support a team, St. Louis, Vancover and Montreal are the only ones I'd say would get good fan support out of the cities they're considering.

And the way it works in the English leagues is what you've just suggested, teams have to meet certain requirements, they have to have an all-seater ground to play in the Premier League, it has to be a certain size, they have to be financially secure, blah blah blah. In fact, since the Football League started accepting promotions from the Conference, probably over 50% of the teams who earned promotion weren't accepted into the League because they didn't meet requirements.

I would love to see a league with multiple divisions and promotion and relegation, it would improve MLS's image in Europe by a hundred times, and make the season a lot more interesting for fans and for clubs. And it will happen in the future, for anyone who saw Don Garber's press conference on the league website, he hinted strongly that, down the road, that's what they're looking to have. But right, now, it's just not possible, for the same reason they can't get rid of the salary cap: they just don't have the money right now. Football's not an established sport in North America, it's not like baseball or even hockey where they could set up a tiered league in a month with the teams and support they have now. It's going to take a long time to build up
the kind of popularity that could support a forty or even sixty team league system.

[profit89]

No one would disagree with you there. Of course it will take time. But pro/rel will eventually happen.

And there is no reason to scrap the salary cap altogether. Need to think outside the box. Perhaps a soft salary cap whereby the cap for each team depends on what they pull in via player transfer sales, ticket revenue, etc..

Lots of things can also be done to compensate those relegated as well. Garber knows what he's doing. He'll do it right.

[I_AM_CANADIAN]

And there is no reason to scrap the salary cap altogether. Need to think outside the box. Perhaps a soft salary cap whereby the cap for each team depends on what they pull in via player transfer sales, ticket revenue, etc..

That would be a great idea, it would also serve to make each club a bit more independent from the league.

But for the moment, I do think the league has to increase the top salary that each player can get in the next few years, the next step for MLS is to try to attract younger players from Europe, and they're not going to come when they could make more playing in the Championship.

[profit89]

Nobody who argues for pro/rel is saying to implement it tomorrow. But the long-term goal should be: 1. developing an MLS-2 (after "the 18") and 2. then in several years of fostering that, eventually implementing a system of pro/relegation between mls1 and mls2

Forget the typical north-american-league consumer, he's long gone. We should have no need or want in converting that stooge. Instead lets focus on converting the already tens of millions of soccer fans in America into "MLS fans."

Lets distance ourselves from that north american psyche which is engrained in us. The same 30 mediocre teams battle, year in and year out, for the title.

Here we have champions league spots to fight over and hopefully, one day, even the teams at the bottom would have something to fight for, relegation. If you mismanage your franchise, you get relegated, not rewarded with a number one draft pick.. i never understood that.

[I_AM_CANADIAN]

Same here, I used to post on the Leafs board, and the Tank Nation types (lose every single game so we can get sick draft picks and gretzkys yo and then win ten strait cups omfgz56u46U$H^$H^$) couldn't understand why I'd argue that the draft should be randomly seeded. The reason the NHL even had the draft that way in the first place was because the original six teams were miles ahead of the expansion teams, it was like the NHL against ECHL teams. The original six had well-established development systems while the new teams had nothing, that's why they organized the draft from last place to first. That system is soooo outdated and makes no sense today, losing shouldn't be rewarded, losing means you suck, and you yourself have to find a way to get better without being given a great player for being garbage all year.

[profit89]

Yes, and using the Russian Premier League as an example for a financially sound and secure sports organisation is probably not a great idea. That said, their logos are kick-ass...

Yes, Zenit winning the uefa cup.. it must be a crap league, of course. :rolleyes:

[profit89]

http://www.tribalfootball.com/article.php?id=94518

[profit89]

I think the best way to do it is have a single table like europe (18 teams) and a pro/rel system like Mexico's. One team gets relegated a year based on fewest points earned per match played over three seasons (for teams recently promoted, only the games played since their promotion are considered).

Further, as per FMF, only certain teams have the right to gain promotion:

Teams have a chance to gain promotion to the Primera División de México; nevertheless, as many teams are affiliates (reserves) of Primera División teams, only selected teams have the right to be promoted if they were to become champions (what it is called the FMF Certification and given after meeting several requisites).

[TFC07]

but north americans will refuse to watch anything less then a #1 league...

Exactly.

Some of you guys got to remember that MLS is an American league that follows American traditional (like all-star game, draft players from college, playoffs etc...). MLS needs to focus on selling their product to Americans (and Canadians). Reg/Pro wouldn't help the cause IMO.

[Rudi]

There is a better chance of leagues in Europe eliminating promotion/relegation than MLS adopting it.

Seriously, the sport is far different now than when most Euro leagues were set up 100 years ago. If England were setting up a league from scratch today, I can guarantee you that promotion/relegation wouldn't even be considered.

The start up costs lone would scare off any potential investors if they knew that they could possibly be demoted to a lower league with far lesser ROI.

As a fan of competitive sports, I love the tiered system. As a realist who lives in the modern world, I know that it is in fact an antiquated system in todays sports as a business environment.


Yes, Zenit winning the uefa cup.. it must be a crap league, of course. :rolleyes:
He didn't say crap league, he said financially sound.

[ExiledRed]

^^^Not at all. As you increase the number of games, you decrease the chance of a team fluking their way through (mathematically, at least).

Or the winner is the team that accumulates the least injuries....

[tfcleeds]

There is a better chance of leagues in Europe eliminating promotion/relegation than MLS adopting it.

Seriously, the sport is far different now than when most Euro leagues were set up 100 years ago. If England were setting up a league from scratch today, I can guarantee you that promotion/relegation wouldn't even be considered.

The start up costs lone would scare off any potential investors if they knew that they could possibly be demoted to a lower league with far lesser ROI.

As a fan of competitive sports, I love the tiered system. As a realist who lives in the modern world, I know that it is in fact an antiquated system in todays sports as a business environment.

QFT. As a football fan, I like the promotion/relegation system, but as much as I like the IDEA of it taking root in MLS, I just cannot see it happening.

As much as I hate to see it happen, there are going to be a number of Football League clubs that are going to go under in the next few years. Rotherham and Luton are two clubs that are already in serious trouble (although Luton have recently had takeover approval - still, this season in the FL is likely to be their last starting the season with a 30 point deduction). Running 72 league clubs on a full-professional level is no longer sustainable, and clubs are going to have to seriously decide whether or not they want to continue on that level, or adopt semi-pro status. Either that, or hope that some sugar-daddy comes in to inject serious cash so they can mount a serious climb up the divisions (eg. Fulham, Wigan, etc.).

In some ways, you could say that the Premier League already IS a closed entity, in that 90% of the time, the clubs that are promoted from the Championship just go back down again, not having the resources to compete at that level.

As Rudi already alluded to, if the European leagues had started from scratch in the 1990s like MLS, you would probably have the North American model in place rather than the current promotion/relegation system.

[Oldtimer]

How many of you watched the Lynx before TFC came along (I did)?
If you didn't, then why do you think other people will watch an inferior product?

[Baggio2TFC]

I apologize if this has been brought up already, but, what is the salary cap in the J league and the A leauge? I mean lets be realistic, we talk about New york being relegated...never gonna happen...with a larger salary cap...or non at all. New your, New england, TFC...probably the cream of the crop. Teams like houston, San Jose, and Columbus are teams that will be fighting to stay on top. New york, TFC= Man U and Liverpool, or AC Milan and Iner Milan, or Porto and Befica...get my drift. This will definetly work, and I think would be alot of fun to watch!!