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MartinUtd
03-10-2015, 11:30 AM
I didn't want to have to do this, but the new transfer rumours thread has already been derailed.

So lets have at it.

The PROS?
-He's experienced
-He's a great vocal communicator
-Leader in the locker room
-Strong tackler
-Well positioned (the high line was a coaching decision, not his)

The CONS?
-Long in the tooth
-Slow on his feet
-Arms prone to flailing (handball and foul hazard)
-Expensive contract ($364k)

It's way too early to project what kind of a season he'll have based on the Vancouver game and more specifically, letting Manneh in behind him. The way I see it is, this is the last year of his contract and we've had a lot of turn over so it's best to keep him for stability reasons. It'd be nice to give Hagglund the odd start beside Perquis because we'll want to know if they're a viable CB combination going forward. For now though, I'm happy with Caldwell. When the summer transfer window arrives I could be signing a different tune, but for now I want him on the team and in the starting XI.

BelfastBoy
03-10-2015, 11:38 AM
What he lacks in ability, he makes up for in leadership. Need a guy like this around and in the starting XI. Probably should be his last year though.

pdubs
03-10-2015, 11:45 AM
he needs to tape his arms to his sides. it bothers me to no end when he flails all over the place.

brad
03-10-2015, 11:53 AM
I look forward to seeing two experienced CB's play together for what I believe is the first time in our history.

Detroit_TFC
03-10-2015, 11:58 AM
I look forward to seeing two experienced CB's play together for what I believe is the first time in our history.

This is the key point. Our back line is weak compared to other parts of the team but it's head and shoulders beyond what we usually have to work with. I just don't know.

Red4ever
03-10-2015, 12:11 PM
Martin I love almost every contribution you make to this board and don't get me wrong, this is a discussion worth having, but I have never felt as strongly about the midfield with which we have surrounded our defenders. Let's see what they can do. This thread is a little early for this season.

Its one game. I'll jump back in and judge him after 5 or 6 games.

MartinUtd
03-10-2015, 12:13 PM
I look forward to seeing two experienced CB's play together for what I believe is the first time in our history.

Did Tyrone Marshall ever pair with Olivier Tebily? Because that's about the closest I can think in terms of experience. Too bad Tebily had to leave so quickly.

ag futbol
03-10-2015, 12:13 PM
^ agreed, too early.

One game does not a season make.

MartinUtd
03-10-2015, 12:14 PM
Martin I love almost every contribution you make to this board and don't get me wrong, this is a discussion worth having, but I have never felt as strongly about the midfield with which we have surrounded our defenders. Let's see what they can do. This thread is a little early for this season.

Its one game. I'll jump back in and judge him after 5 or 6 games.

Thanks for the kind words. I'll freely admit its too early to have this discussion. But it is a discussion people seem to want to have so I'd rather make a thread for it than clutter up the brand new (single page) transfer thread.

buddies
03-10-2015, 12:23 PM
I don't know why either Warren Creavalle or Greg Vanney aren't taking more of a hit than Caldwell for our defensive misgivings on Saturday. Caldwell was hung out to dry if you ask me. I PVR'd the game and after reading all of the stuff directed at him I decided to watch it over again on Sunday. Caldwell was the one left man on man against the second coming of Ben Johnson in Manneh but at least he was in there hacking away. Creavalle was nowhere to be found everytime a ball was lobbed in behind our defence. I don't know whether to blame him or Vanney and I'm surprised that none of the reporters covering TFC asked Vanney about it either. Either Creavalle was way out of position (often not even in his own half) or Vanney asked him to push forward. A blind man could see that we needed him back there after the first breakaway so why it took till halftime to correct the situation ... I don't know. That issue whether it was Creavalle or Vanney, it doesn't matter. It nearly cost us the game.

A Stick
03-10-2015, 12:26 PM
He's good in the air and you can see that he's a natural born leader, but he has not been the same since his mid season injury of last year. Hopefully barring injuries one of the young guys will be pushing him for a starting position by the quarter mark of this season.

brad
03-10-2015, 12:30 PM
Did Tyrone Marshall ever pair with Olivier Tebily? Because that's about the closest I can think in terms of experience. Too bad Tebily had to leave so quickly.

I think you are right - pretty sure they did, but not for very long.

Ultra & Proud
03-10-2015, 12:33 PM
I don't know why either Warren Creavalle or Greg Vanney aren't taking more of a hit than Caldwell for our defensive misgivings on Saturday. Caldwell was hung out to dry if you ask me. I PVR'd the game and after reading all of the stuff directed at him I decided to watch it over again on Sunday. Caldwell was the one left man on man against the second coming of Ben Johnson in Manneh but at least he was in there hacking away. Creavalle was nowhere to be found everytime a ball was lobbed in behind our defence. I don't know whether to blame him or Vanney and I'm surprised that none of the reporters covering TFC asked Vanney about it either. Either Creavalle was way out of position (often not even in his own half) or Vanney asked him to push forward. A blind man could see that we needed him back there after the first breakaway so why it took till halftime to correct the situation ... I don't know. That issue whether it was Creavalle or Vanney, it doesn't matter. It nearly cost us the game.

This is exactly what is was. Caldwell was left out to dry by Creavalle who was AWOL often in the first half. Obviously Caldwell has lost a step but he was playing the high line Vanney wanted and would never recover to catch Manneh. From that position I am not sure Marvel Wynne a few years back would have been able to either. But I do realize that this is a Toronto FC supporters forum so thusly there has to be a goat on the squad at all times regardless of results. I guess in the early stages of 2015 it'll be Caldwell.

jloome
03-10-2015, 12:33 PM
I don't know why either Warren Creavalle or Greg Vanney aren't taking more of a hit than Caldwell for our defensive misgivings on Saturday. Caldwell was hung out to dry if you ask me. I PVR'd the game and after reading all of the stuff directed at him I decided to watch it over again on Sunday. Caldwell was the one left man on man against the second coming of Ben Johnson in Manneh but at least he was in there hacking away. Creavalle was nowhere to be found everytime a ball was lobbed in behind our defence. I don't know whether to blame him or Vanney and I'm surprised that none of the reporters covering TFC asked Vanney about it either. Either Creavalle was way out of position (often not even in his own half) or Vanney asked him to push forward. A blind man could see that we needed him back there after the first breakaway so why it took till halftime to correct the situation ... I don't know. That issue whether it was Creavalle or Vanney, it doesn't matter. It nearly cost us the game.

Bit of both. Creavalle is an athletic freak and I suspect Vanney overestimated his ability to play two ways with a high line. It's tough at best when you have a winger helping out, but when you have a guy of Manneh's speed up front, it's very dangerous.

It may have just been a legit gamble that giving them the right channel would force the striker wide repeatedly, making him less dangerous as a forward and more of a winger. But if so they underestimated how quick Manneh is.

As for who takes the blame... no one. We won. Several of us have noted it was a tactical error, but it was corrected a half-time. I'll be very surprised if he makes the right call off the top of the game every week but because we have talent now, we have some leeway to push things and correct as the game progresses.

ManUtd4ever
03-10-2015, 12:35 PM
Caldwell's tenure dictates that he deserves a longer look and some leeway in order to adjust to Vanney's tactical approach, but if he can't cut it after a few more games, I would replace him with Hagglund in the starting lineup.

ryan
03-10-2015, 12:43 PM
Very fast pitch with top speed players. Won't face that every game.

JuliquE
03-10-2015, 02:10 PM
Caldwell's tenure dictates that he deserves a longer look and some leeway in order to adjust to Vanney's tactical approach, but if he can't cut it after a few more games, I would replace him with Hagglund in the starting lineup.


Very fast pitch with top speed players. Won't face that every game.
These two are everything.

Lumpy
03-10-2015, 02:56 PM
Long live Steven Caldwell !!!!

PopePouri
03-10-2015, 03:01 PM
Caldwell's tenure dictates that he deserves a longer look and some leeway in order to adjust to Vanney's tactical approach, but if he can't cut it after a few more games, I would replace him with Hagglund in the starting lineup.

It extends to Hagglund as well.

Hagglund needs to prove himself on the ball. He was extremely poor during preseason.

Carts
03-10-2015, 03:05 PM
Very fast pitch with top speed players. Won't face that every game.

Ya you could tell he was weary of the plastic pitch all match. Which is good awareness, but was awkward to watch at times...

3-1 win, 3pts on the road, natural surface coming up in Columbus - let's do it all over again on Saturday...

Carts...

Section_105
03-11-2015, 12:58 PM
Also.....he was part of the group that went out of their minds getting the CBA done. he was probably still feeling the effects of all of that as well.

MightyDM
03-11-2015, 01:36 PM
The criticism of Caldwell is missing the point that a high line must be accompanied by high pressing, or the back four is systematically picked off by any competent midfielder. In the first half we were not pressing at all and this allowed the Whitecaps the time to pick us apart. Vanney seemed to point this out in his press conference with his comment about not letting them turn. It's a team mistake, not just a Caldwell mistake.

flatpicker
03-15-2015, 02:10 PM
Caldwell just limped by me in the Eaton Centre. Unless it was his clone. He looked a bit uncomfortable.

ensco
07-03-2015, 12:06 AM
He isn't coming back, is he. This is just Frings all over again.

What do we need to do to get his cap hit freed up?

Shway
07-03-2015, 12:46 AM
He isn't coming back, is he. This is just Frings all over again.

What do we need to do to get his cap hit freed up?

He would have to retire...or be put on the season ending injury list I believe.

portu
07-03-2015, 01:42 AM
Caldwell is probably never going to reach the level expected of his salary again. If he truly cared about this club he would take a pay cut

OgtheDim
07-03-2015, 06:10 AM
Funny ya'll should bring this up.

Kurtis Larson ‏@KurtLarSUN (https://twitter.com/KurtLarSUN) 9h9 hours ago (https://twitter.com/KurtLarSUN/status/616785345481437185) Caldwell out for Saturday. I'm told New York game would be optimistic at this point. Could be involved after that.


So, Philly.

Auzzy
07-03-2015, 06:13 AM
I don't even think there's a "season-ending injury list" in MLS. Cap hit & roster spot stays tied up. (Maybe one of the capoligists can correct me.) I think retiring helps -- I guess that's why they've sometimes offered retiring players coaching or front-office jobs.

MartinUtd
07-03-2015, 09:45 AM
Certainly seems like Frings all over again. If they're saying he's close to recovery then I doubt he's going anywhere until the season is over. I just hope he still has it when he does come back.

jabbronies
07-03-2015, 09:54 AM
Caldwell is done. I wished he could've played out the season, but it's been too long now.
He wasn't fast enough to begin with and this time off does not help him. Even if he does come back, he won't come back to where we need him to be.

Don't be surprised to see a "Steven Caldwell retires" thread before the transfer window closes, followed a week or so later by a headline that reads"TFC sign CB {insert name here}".

Ossington Mental Youth
07-03-2015, 10:03 AM
Wish dude would just pull the trigger instead of prolonging this

OgtheDim
07-03-2015, 10:10 AM
The team has not shut him down. And he is at training, just not with the team.

Premature this.

Discostu81
07-03-2015, 10:48 AM
If he does retire, I hope the club gives him some sort of job. Failing that, I always find him a good pundit when he's a guest for the Premier League games on Saturday (can't remember if he does TSN or Sportnet)

I've met him a couple of times at work and he's always been very nice to chat to and seems to really like it here.

Dv23
07-03-2015, 10:58 AM
Got his autograph last week at the DC game. He told me he was expecting to be back within the next 10 days or so. I didn't expect him for the LA game but I figured he'd be ready for the one after that.

T-boy
07-03-2015, 11:19 AM
I don't even think there's a "season-ending injury list" in MLS. Cap hit & roster spot stays tied up. (Maybe one of the capoligists can correct me.) I think retiring helps -- I guess that's why they've sometimes offered retiring players coaching or front-office jobs.

If I recall correctly there is a "season ending injury list", however the players cap hit remains, but the roster spot opens up. Or the international spot opens up, one or the other. Somebody else can clarify which is correct!

ManUtd4ever
07-03-2015, 11:33 AM
MLS has to address this issue. Teams have to be given cap relief for players on LTIR. The status quo effectively penalizes teams for circumstances beyond their control.

T-boy
07-03-2015, 11:36 AM
(K) SEASON-ENDING INJURY REPLACEMENTS
A team with a player lost to a season-ending injury can replace that player on its roster, while remaining responsible for the full amount of the injured player’s salary. A player can be placed on the season-ending injury list once another player has been signed as a replacement (provided the team has budget space). International player limits still apply at the time a season-ending replacement is made (with the player being replaced not counting against those limits).

TFC_Allez
07-03-2015, 01:41 PM
Unless one of our current central defenders picks up an injury, he won't and shouldn't get any playing time. Great guy and all but I think he's a gigantic waste of cash to be sitting on the bench. At this rate, he won't crack the starting XI anytime soon nor does he deserve a spot. The back 4 (barring the Gold Cup absence of Morgan) have been playing well...wouldn't make sense to change it.

I think he should cut his losses and call it a career. May sound harsh, but he'll be taking himself out of limbo and allow the team the cap space to pick up maybe multiple pieces we could use for the second half of the season.

OgtheDim
07-03-2015, 01:49 PM
Oh, he'll start. The plan this season always was to have Caldwell and Perquis with the kids backing them up. That's not going to change. They'll bring him in slow and like but we are going to need him come September. 1 injury or red card to Perquis and ya'll will be happy to see that tall Scot in the back.

MartinUtd
07-03-2015, 01:58 PM
Given this current stretch of international call ups, I wouldn't mind dropping Zavaletta for Caldwell and stick Hagglund on the right. Caldwell can then babysit him and bark orders to get back in position. Nothing against Zav, but that seems to be a good use our depleted resources.

Auzzy
07-03-2015, 01:59 PM
(K) SEASON-ENDING INJURY REPLACEMENTS
A team with a player lost to a season-ending injury can replace that player on its roster, while remaining responsible for the full amount of the injured player’s salary. A player can be placed on the season-ending injury list once another player has been signed as a replacement (provided the team has budget space). International player limits still apply at the time a season-ending replacement is made (with the player being replaced not counting against those limits).

Thanks for clarifying. Now I remember, TFC has been in the same spot before!

ag futbol
07-03-2015, 02:00 PM
I think the current pairing works well between Perquis's aggression and Zavaleta's positional sense. I wouldn't mess with that for now.

We're heading towards offseason buyout for Caldwell, that much is obvious. No more charity positions please, I respect the guy but this gets floated far too often.

MartinUtd
07-03-2015, 02:02 PM
I think the current pairing works well between Perquis's aggression and Zavaleta's positional sense. I wouldn't mess with that for now.

We're heading towards offseason buyout for Caldwell, that much is obvious. No more charity positions please, I respect the guy but this gets floated far too often.

Isn't he out of contract after this season anyway?

ManUtd4ever
07-03-2015, 02:26 PM
Zavaleta has had issues with his distribution, but he has really stepped up when the team needed help on the backline. Kudos to management for selecting him in the re-entry draft.

Richard
07-03-2015, 04:07 PM
Oh, he'll start. The plan this season always was to have Caldwell and Perquis with the kids backing them up. That's not going to change. They'll bring him in slow and like but we are going to need him come September. 1 injury or red card to Perquis and ya'll will be happy to see that tall Scot in the back.

I like it when an experienced defender is paired with a young guy, I think this is the best way to develop your defenders as get your older guys to show them the ropes. Caldwell should be a backup and only played when Perquis is out, we need a younger defender paired with him to cover for his lack of speed. Having a Caldwell/Perquis pair isn't also entirely good when our starting DM isn't exactly fast, we need a bit of young blood in there to balance it out.

Soccerpro
07-03-2015, 07:39 PM
I wish we could cut Caldwell now and spend on someone else. He's 34 and has been out all season.

Ultra & Proud
07-03-2015, 10:05 PM
All I can say is that *if* we make the playoffs I think a Caldwell - Perquis pairing would be a lot safer than one with Zavaleta in it. If all things being equal, everyone's health is perfect.

edit: no disrespect to what Zavaleta has done either. But in the high pressure matches, I could see his indecision on his passes costing us.

ronzilla
07-03-2015, 10:21 PM
His interviews drive me nuts i could never understand a word hes saying

SirBobSaget
07-03-2015, 11:12 PM
A full health Caldwell and Perquis pairing would be great for the playoff stretch, but how likely is a full health Caldwell at that time? Best outcome is the Dichio-move. Retire mid-season and land some lucrative post career media and coaching work. Caldwell has already took a tiny step into that world.

Hamilton_Red
07-03-2015, 11:48 PM
Yes & if you truly cared about your employer... you'd do the same. Walk up and ask them to cut your wages.

This whole element is the most distasteful aspect of the MLS salary cap system. We sit around hoping to reduce the wages of the players we are supposed to be supporting.

jazzy
07-03-2015, 11:59 PM
Everyone seems to forget his flying arms technique. It's hard to believe a senior pro waves his arms in the box . It will penalize us at the wrong time , he's a good guy but , slow and rusty . For how much $ . Hopefully he is promoted up .

WestStandGeoff
07-04-2015, 05:23 AM
Yes & if you truly cared about your employer... you'd do the same. Walk up and ask them to cut your wages.

This whole element is the most distasteful aspect of the MLS salary cap system. We sit around hoping to reduce the wages of the players we are supposed to be supporting.

Agree with the 2nd part, but your analogy is way off. Would only apply to an employee who's in the last few months of a multi-year contract that, if it gets renewed at all would be at a fraction of what it is now. Instead of seeing the door in a few months with no other comparable employment opportunities, the team effectively pays them more over a longer period and also helps them transition into a new post-playing career (if that's what interests them).

Fort York Redcoat
07-04-2015, 05:53 AM
Yes & if you truly cared about your employer... you'd do the same. Walk up and ask them to cut your wages.

This whole element is the most distasteful aspect of the MLS salary cap system. We sit around hoping to reduce the wages of the players we are supposed to be supporting.

Or every cap system in NA. Pretty common place here. In sport.

ensco
07-04-2015, 07:53 AM
Oh, he'll start. The plan this season always was to have Caldwell and Perquis with the kids backing them up. That's not going to change. They'll bring him in slow and like but we are going to need him come September. 1 injury or red card to Perquis and ya'll will be happy to see that tall Scot in the back.

Og, I'd wager you have never been a manager of a guy playing the short term disability card. You often see it as someone approaches their pension date (very analogous to the last year of a contract in sports).

When a guy in this position is always 2 or 3 weeks away, for months, alarm bells go off, for me anyway.

Of course nobody knows. Once in a while, I suppose, the guy really does come back. But that isn't the way to play it.

notthesun
07-04-2015, 09:16 AM
Isn't he out of contract after this season anyway?

Yeah I'm pretty sure this is the case.

portu
07-04-2015, 05:08 PM
Yes & if you truly cared about your employer... you'd do the same. Walk up and ask them to cut your wages.

This whole element is the most distasteful aspect of the MLS salary cap system. We sit around hoping to reduce the wages of the players we are supposed to be supporting.
Tell me it's not true that it would be in the best interest of the club to shed at least part of his salary. He's not even earning his wages right now.

Voodooman
07-14-2015, 08:36 AM
Looks like his retirement is official, shame to see. I guess he just couldn't get back into form.

He has got a job though, no idea what exactly it means, but he is the Director of Corporate Development with Maple Leaf Sports & Entertainment.