Argos to BMO decision - Wednesday, May 20th

[Fort York Redcoat]

Another Argos to BMO thread since we got the news last week. Let's keep it on topic the best we can in here. Thanks.


http://www.thestar.com/sports/argos/2015/02/19/argos-owner-hoping-to-get-bmo-field-deal-done-by-summer.html# (http://www.thestar.com/sports/argos/2015/02/19/argos-owner-hoping-to-get-bmo-field-deal-done-by-summer.html#)


What are peoples opinions on how this decision will be handled if it goes through?

Will there be some gladhanding press conference for celebrating Argos fans or will it be a Canada Press release that they hope most of us don't notice?

[ensco]

What is the historic ratio of users banned per Argo thread? It used to be pretty high, feels like we're slipping these days ...

[OgtheDim]

The Argos need a sugar daddy - somebody willing to lose $3- 10 million a year just to run their own toy. Braley isn't it. Nor is Tannenbaum. Nor is MLSE.


The best long term hope for TFC control of their own stadium is either

a) we grow so big that a move out of BMO is the only way to keep up with demand (i.e. if there is demand for 45K + per game)
That's not so radical an idea when Seattle is beginning the feelers to create their own SSS to build a 60K space only a few years after starting up in the home the Seahawks took over. Think about this scenario. Its 2022. TFC is averaging 30K a season with lots of demand. Do you build up to 40K and maximise the space? Or do you find a space at Downsview and build a 45k space with flexibility to go to 60K and leave the Argos behind?

b) Argo ownership wants to keep the profits of concessions and sees the wisdom behind building their own space


I think the pointy heads at MLSE are thinking a is far more likely.

2030 - New Stadium

[Fort York Redcoat]

What is the historic ratio of users banned per Argo thread? It used to be pretty high, feels like we're slipping these days ...

I'm still shocked as to how many threads there are.

[Fort York Redcoat]

The Argos need a sugar daddy - somebody willing to lose $3- 10 million a year just to run their own toy. Braley isn't it. Nor is Tannenbaum. Nor is MLSE.


The best long term hope for TFC control of their own stadium is either

a) we grow so big that a move out of BMO is the only way to keep up with demand (i.e. if there is demand for 45K + per game)
That's not so radical an idea when Seattle is beginning the feelers to create their own SSS to build a 60K space only a few years after starting up in the home the Seahawks took over. Think about this scenario. Its 2022. TFC is averaging 30K a season with lots of demand. Do you build up to 40K and maximise the space? Or do you find a space at Downsview and build a 45k space with flexibility to go to 60K and leave the Argos behind?

b) Argo ownership wants to keep the profits of concessions and sees the wisdom behind building their own space

Agree on all points but if I could add that Braley shouldn't have to be a sugar daddy for not one but 2 teams in such a small league. I feel for him on that score.

[TFC07]

Why summer 2015? Argos got plenty of time to make a deal to move to BMO field (Their lease with Rogers Centre ends in Dec 2017)

[Petor]

It's a federal election year.
Maybe the Argos can get that $10 million and use it to expand the stadium at York U.
Also could get more money into the University for other stuff, like practice facilities etc.

[TFC07]

It's a federal election year.
Maybe the Argos can get that $10 million and use it to expand the stadium at York U.
Also could get more money into the University for other stuff, like practice facilities etc.

I don't think Feds are going to contribute any money especially with oil prices being down.

[TFC07]

Agree on all points but if I could add that Braley shouldn't have to be a sugar daddy for not one but 2 teams in such a small league. I feel for him on that score.

This is true. Braley is simply a caretaker owner who is running Argos until someone steps up.

[Beach_Red]

The Argos need a sugar daddy - somebody willing to lose $3- 10 million a year just to run their own toy. Braley isn't it. Nor is Tannenbaum. Nor is MLSE.


It will probably come down to how important is the CFL to TSN, and therefore Bell. The TV business in this country has always taken place behind closed doors between a few players. A deal will be made and we'll be told about it when it's done. As always.

[Fort York Redcoat]

This is true. Braley is simply a caretaker owner who is running Argos until someone steps up.

Holy Crap! He took them on in 2010!?! It's been 4 seasons of caretaking...

[Fort York Redcoat]

Why summer 2015? Argos got plenty of time to make a deal to move to BMO field (Their lease with Rogers Centre ends in Dec 2017)

They do but I used their timeframe from the article.

[Fort York Redcoat]

It will probably come down to how important is the CFL to TSN, and therefore Bell. The TV business in this country has always taken place behind closed doors between a few players. A deal will be made and we'll be told about it when it's done. As always.

So you don't expect any fanfare over this? As bias as I am I'm still aware of the tens of thousands it will make happy...

[Beach_Red]

So you don't expect any fanfare over this? As bias as I am I'm still aware of the tens of thousands it will make happy...

Once the decision is made there will be plenty of fanfare (marketing) if it goes that way. But there's a lot of politics because it's an east-west split. I think what happens to the Argos is a minor part of a larger negotiation between these media companies. In the TV business the idea of Canadian content used to be sacrosanct (because the CRTC made is so) but it isn't anymore. It's just a matter of how quickly it bleeds out and is finally gone completely from the private broadcasters.

So, if the Argos die and the CFL suffers because of it and Bell loses that Canadian content and there are no consequences it could be an important step (Bell would like to be rid of all its Canadian content, I think). That's why I think there's a very good chance we'll never see the Argos at BMO. It's kind of a canary in the coal mine for other issues.

[Petor]

A picture speaks a thousand words, so here are a few thousand, do we really want this?

http://worldsoccertalk.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/seattle-sounders-field-600x450.jpg

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BzJCNW6CYAEJ5-i.jpg

http://www.futfanatico.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/Hashmarks1.jpg

[Mulder]

Holy Crap! He took them on in 2010!?! It's been 4 seasons of caretaking...

Yet Bob Young refers to himself of the Caretaker of the Ticats. OMG That's 12 seasons of caretaking......

[Areathrasher]

A picture speaks a thousand words, so here are a few thousand, do we really want this?

http://worldsoccertalk.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/seattle-sounders-field-600x450.jpg

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BzJCNW6CYAEJ5-i.jpg

http://www.futfanatico.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/Hashmarks1.jpg

For the sake of accuracy can you find any pictures of the caps playing on a pitch with BC Lions stuff and CFL markers on it?

Given that we will be likely sharing with a CFL team not an NFL team.

[Petor]

For the sake of accuracy can you find any pictures of the caps playing on a pitch with BC Lions stuff and CFL markers on it?

Given that we will be likely sharing with a CFL team not an NFL team.

Well, the pictures are of MLS teams dealing with pointy ball lines, I don't see the difference as the CFL basically uses the same markings that the NFL does.
However I'll try and find some Vancouver stuff for you.

[Fort York Redcoat]

Yet Bob Young refers to himself of the Caretaker of the Ticats. OMG That's 12 seasons of caretaking......

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lv31qsBzZL1qa6lp8.gif

So if there was a contest of desperation for ownership are you saying Hamilton is winning?

[Areathrasher]

Well, the pictures are of MLS teams dealing with pointy ball lines, I don't see the difference as the CFL basically uses the same markings that the NFL does.
However I'll try and find some Vancouver stuff for you.

Don't bother, you won't find anything on the scale of the Revs and Sounders pics posted above.

You wont have a Revs/Sounders situation as the CFL pitch is wider and longer so no white markings on the side of the pitch and the end zone would be behind the penalty area.

I've asked a few Caps fans if they have ever had a situation like Revs and Sounders have and they haven't. Faded markings similar to the Houston pitch you posted but nothing on the scale of Revs and Sounders.

[Fort York Redcoat]

For the sake of accuracy can you find any pictures of the caps playing on a pitch with BC Lions stuff and CFL markers on it?

Given that we will be likely sharing with a CFL team not an NFL team.


Well, the pictures are of MLS teams dealing with pointy ball lines, I don't see the difference as the CFL basically uses the same markings that the NFL does.
However I'll try and find some Vancouver stuff for you.

The point was that CFL doesn't do as much damage as NFL. Which is true but the difference is not enough to be acceptable.

[Petor]

Don't bother, you won't find anything on the scale of the Revs and Sounders pics posted above.

You wont have a Revs/Sounders situation as the CFL pitch is wider and longer so no white markings on the side of the pitch and the end zone would be behind the penalty area.

I've asked a few Caps fans if they have ever had a situation like Revs and Sounders have and they haven't. Faded markings similar to the Houston pitch you posted but nothing on the scale of Revs and Sounders.

Yes, like Houston.

http://saraborck.com/_html/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/SB1_6176.jpg

[Mulder]

So if there was a contest of desperation for ownership are you saying Hamilton is winning?

You clearly misunderstand the concept of being a caretaker for a century old institution.

[Areathrasher]

The point was that CFL doesn't do as much damage as NFL. Which is true but the difference is not enough to be acceptable.

I'm being pedantic tbh. Not saying it's acceptable either.

Given there is already a CFL/MLS groundshare in existence. Any talk of markings/paint etc should revolve around that and not the Sounders or Revs imo.

[GabrielHurl]

Caps vs SKC - Aug 10, 2014 - two days after the Lions played the TiCats

watch the highlights here - http://www.mlssoccer.com/video/2014/08/10/highlights-vancouver-whitecaps-vs-sporting-kansas-city-august-10-2014

http://i.imgur.com/ePg2vOc.png

[greatwhitenorf]

The Argos need a sugar daddy - somebody willing to lose $3- 10 million a year just to run their own toy. Braley isn't it. Nor is Tannenbaum. Nor is MLSE.


The best long term hope for TFC control of their own stadium is either

a) we grow so big that a move out of BMO is the only way to keep up with demand (i.e. if there is demand for 45K + per game)
That's not so radical an idea when Seattle is beginning the feelers to create their own SSS to build a 60K space only a few years after starting up in the home the Seahawks took over. Think about this scenario. Its 2022. TFC is averaging 30K a season with lots of demand. Do you build up to 40K and maximise the space? Or do you find a space at Downsview and build a 45k space with flexibility to go to 60K and leave the Argos behind?

b) Argo ownership wants to keep the profits of concessions and sees the wisdom behind building their own space


I think the pointy heads at MLSE are thinking a is far more likely.

2030 - New Stadium

That's been their business plan since the '80s. How's that working for them?

Interesting to note that current owner Braley has actually been involved in owning the Argos for much longer than when he officially took over in 2010. He gave previous owners Cynamon and Sokolowski half of their meagre $2 million purchase price in 2003 and covered half their annual operating losses. He's been taking on the full financial debacle since 2010.

The market has spoken loudly and clearly for decades. The Argos have gone from first down to face down.

If you took all the money that Braley has pissed away over the years trying to run this club - plus all the government handouts at Grey Cup time - and put it into building a proper home for the Argos and a showcase for Canadian football in general, they'd have a sound base to operate from.

But no one connected with this league has shown any sense of vision or ambition in running the Argos. If MLSE take over the Argos, it is only going to be on the basis that they are confident of acquiring a NFL franchise in the foreseeable future.

[Fort York Redcoat]

You clearly misunderstand the concept of being a caretaker for a century old institution.

Is that it? Did you want to define it for us or just retort?

[Initial B]

For the sake of accuracy can you find any pictures of the caps playing on a pitch with BC Lions stuff and CFL markers on it?

Given that we will be likely sharing with a CFL team not an NFL team.
I didn't notice any when I was there, or the Fury playing on a pitch with Redblacks markings. They do a pretty good job of removing them. However, both those are turf and not grass, so I don't know if you could use the same cleaner or not.

As for the number of games the Argos would play at BMO, they would only play 9 home games (with practice held elsewhere) over 20 weeks, 10 at most with a playoff game included. That's one game every two weeks, and nothing before the end of June so TFC would have a pristine pitch for at least half the season. I don't think that's so bad. The Houston Stadium has weekly football games, doesn't it?

[ensco]

I don't get it. "Braley meeting with Tanenbaum" isn't a news item, that's a meeting between a guy with no money, and a guy with no authority.

I don't see Rogers agreeing to anything that's good for TSN/Bell, so this has to be imposed on MLSE (ie it won't be done with their consent).

Which means there has to be public money to make it happen. Which strikes me as unlikely.

[greatwhitenorf]

I didn't notice any when I was there, or the Fury playing on a pitch with Redblacks markings. They do a pretty good job of removing them. However, both those are turf and not grass, so I don't know if you could use the same cleaner or not.

As for the number of games the Argos would play at BMO, they would only play 9 home games (with practice held elsewhere) over 20 weeks, 10 at most with a playoff game included. That's one game every two weeks, and nothing before the end of June so TFC would have a pristine pitch for at least half the season. I don't think that's so bad. The Houston Stadium has weekly football games, doesn't it?

But it would be a dog run when the most important games take place towards the end of the season and into the playoffs.

What about when TFC once again start playing CONCACAF Champions League games in mid-week from August on? We've had some really good games against top Mexican sides with technical level of play not often seen in MLS games. The ball's on the deck and the passing and movement has been a cut above. Best of all, our players have routinely raised their games to compete with superior talent.

We could also see CFL games impair the quality of play if our national teams choose to play at BMO or when top international sides come in for friendlies.

[OgtheDim]

You clearly misunderstand the concept of being a caretaker for a century old institution.

Institutional importance is vastly over rated by those of us who have an interest in that institution being maintained, especially in as large a city as Toronto. Keeping something going because it has existed before doesn't really work in a city where the majority of us did not grow up here.

If MLG can become a Loblaws due to corporate positioning, the Argos can go away too if the real power brokers behind the CFL (Bell/TSN) care to make that decision.

[Fort York Redcoat]

I'm being pedantic tbh. Not saying it's acceptable either.

Given there is already a CFL/MLS groundshare in existence. Any talk of markings/paint etc should revolve around that and not the Sounders or Revs imo.

I'm all for accuracy.

GM Place uses Polytan LigaTurf 240RS+
BMO Field is in discussion with Desso GrassMaster

[Mulder]

Is that it? Did you want to define it for us or just retort?

Your the one who decided to poke fun at Braley for being a 'caretaker' for 4 years. I pointed out another CFL owner who's perfectly happy at being a caretaker.

http://www.nationalpost.com/news/Michael+memory/592137/story.html

[greatwhitenorf]

Yes, like Houston.

http://saraborck.com/_html/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/SB1_6176.jpg

Could be a real boon to improving off side calls.

[Fort York Redcoat]

I didn't notice any when I was there, or the Fury playing on a pitch with Redblacks markings. They do a pretty good job of removing them. However, both those are turf and not grass, so I don't know if you could use the same cleaner or not.

As for the number of games the Argos would play at BMO, they would only play 9 home games (with practice held elsewhere) over 20 weeks, 10 at most with a playoff game included. That's one game every two weeks, and nothing before the end of June so TFC would have a pristine pitch for at least half the season. I don't think that's so bad. The Houston Stadium has weekly football games, doesn't it?


But it would be a dog run when the most important games take place towards the end of the season and into the playoffs.

What about when TFC once again start playing CONCACAF Champions League games in mid-week from August on? We've had some really good games against top Mexican sides with technical level of play not often seen in MLS games. The ball's on the deck and the passing and movement has been a cut above. Best of all, our players have routinely raised their games to compete with superior talent.

We could also see CFL games impair the quality of play if our national teams choose to play at BMO or when top international sides come in for friendlies.

Towards this line of discussion the point is not (to me) whether it will be so bad

but

If it doesn't have to happen why do this when it will only make things worse?

I quoted you gwn because by IB's POV one could say there are other teams in the CCL that have shambolic fields at that time (all the time, really).

To repeat whats above - why would we want to see an inferior product?

[Red4ever]

Hate to be the one to say it cause i don't think the argos should be here, but that Vancouver shot doesn't look that bad to me. We get close to that, I could live with it.

[Fort York Redcoat]

Your the one who decided to poke fun at Braley for being a 'caretaker' for 4 years. I pointed out another CFL owner who's perfectly happy at being a caretaker.

http://www.nationalpost.com/news/Michael+memory/592137/story.html

Me? Are you telling me that having caretaker owners doesn't concern yourself or any CFL fans??? If no you may want to explain it to almost every other sports fan as well as myself.

[Phil]

Your the one who decided to poke fun at Braley for being a 'caretaker' for 4 years. I pointed out another CFL owner who's perfectly happy at being a caretaker.

http://www.nationalpost.com/news/Michael+memory/592137/story.html

All I get from this back and forth is that the Argos are old and the CFL has a lot of caretaker owners - probably not a good sign.

As for the turf and lines, I really want to see apples to apples and understand what damage can be done or shown after a wet September / October on this hybrid surface. Seeing how BMO field doesn't have a hybrid surface yet - what kind of time does it take to install one and have it ready to play on?

I fall back to the familiar point that I wish the Argos well but I would like them to have their own facility. The only sport that loses if this goes sideways is Soccer.

[Fort York Redcoat]

Hate to be the one to say it cause i don't think the argos should be here, but that Vancouver shot doesn't look that bad to me. We get close to that, I could live with it.

Ok. I'm looking for you March 7 in the pub the first ball that goes awry because of their field turf... ;)

And remember we'd be dealing with Desso.

[Phil]

Hate to be the one to say it cause i don't think the argos should be here, but that Vancouver shot doesn't look that bad to me. We get close to that, I could live with it.

I agree, but that is pure plastic.

We are talking about the hybrid stuff, so the ground can get torn up when lets say a 300 lb dude is digging in for tackles. The elements can be at play along with the stress on the surface. If lets say the Argos play on a sloppy weather weekend, is the pitch going to be ready for a CCL game on the following Wednesday night?

[Fort York Redcoat]

I didn't notice any when I was there, or the Fury playing on a pitch with Redblacks markings. They do a pretty good job of removing them. However, both those are turf and not grass, so I don't know if you could use the same cleaner or not.

As for the number of games the Argos would play at BMO, they would only play 9 home games (with practice held elsewhere) over 20 weeks, 10 at most with a playoff game included. That's one game every two weeks, and nothing before the end of June so TFC would have a pristine pitch for at least half the season. I don't think that's so bad. The Houston Stadium has weekly football games, doesn't it?

One other element I'd like more info on

Is the Argos training sched. I just read something about them moving from Erindale last year but are they full time training at Downsview now??

[TFC07]

I don't get it. "Braley meeting with Tanenbaum" isn't a news item, that's a meeting between a guy with no money, and a guy with no authority.

I don't see Rogers agreeing to anything that's good for TSN/Bell, so this has to be imposed on MLSE (ie it won't be done with their consent).

Which means there has to be public money to make it happen. Which strikes me as unlikely.

This is true, but I am sure there's something going on background (btw: Rogers and Bell) to get this done unless Larry T is going solo and buy Argos with his own money.

[Mulder]

Me? Are you telling me that having caretaker owners doesn't concern yourself or any CFL fans??? If no you may want to explain it to almost every other sports fan as well as myself.

Bob Young bought the Ticats because his brother was a big Ticats fans and passed away. He's "Caretaking" the team in his memory. I fail to see how that's a bad thing. (you obviously do)

[greatwhitenorf]

Let's be clear about Vancouver's situation. The Whitecaps are only playing in the dome in the short term. They have plans to build a new stadium of their own near Gastown and had to play political football in order to get that situation approved one day.

When they refurbished BC Place, it was made clear to them that their stadium project would never get approval unless they agreed to play a few years in the dome to help pay off - or help justify - the costs to re-do the place. Greg Kerfoot's group still harbour ambitions of their own ground and agreed to hold their collective nose for a few years. No one with the Whitecaps is happy playing on plastic.

[GabrielHurl]

Wembley - mid November 6 days after the Jags played the Cowboys - on a Desso Grassmaster pitch - this is as close as we will know

http://i.imgur.com/eJkscjz.png

[greatwhitenorf]

All I get from this back and forth is that the Argos are old and the CFL has a lot of caretaker owners - probably not a good sign.

As for the turf and lines, I really want to see apples to apples and understand what damage can be done or shown after a wet September / October on this hybrid surface. Seeing how BMO field doesn't have a hybrid surface yet - what kind of time does it take to install one and have it ready to play on?

I fall back to the familiar point that I wish the Argos well but I would like them to have their own facility. The only sport that loses if this goes sideways is Soccer.

Here you go. A fookin' midden, mate.

http://www.thestar.com/content/dam/thestar/sports/football/2012/11/19/grey_cup_memories_amid_filth_a_thrilling_day_at_th e_argos_mud_bowl/mudbowl.jpeg.size.xxlarge.letterbox.jpeg

[Fort York Redcoat]

Just so we can see what this product is doing elsewhere here is a list of those who use the Desso

http://www.dessosports.com/sports/football/football-projects/wembley-stadium-uk (http://www.dessosports.com/sports/football/football-projects/wembley-stadium-uk)

Almaty Central Stadium, Kazakhstan
Arena de Sao Paulo, Brazil
Arsenal FC Emirates Stadium, UK
Arsenal FC training academy, UK
AS Monaco FC Training Centre, France
Aston Villa, UK
AZ Alkmaar, the Netherlands
Burnley FC Turf Moor Stadium, UK
Cardiff City Stadium, UK
Donbass Arena, Ukraine
Feyenoord, the Netherlands
Grêmio, Brazil
Huddersfield Town & Giants, UK
Leigh Sports Village, UK
Liverpool FC, UK
Manchester City, UK
Mbombela Stadium, South Africa
Metalist Stadium, Ukraine
Nelson Mandela Bay Stadium, South Africa
Ocean Stadium, France
Panthessaliko Stadium, Greece
Peter Mokaba Stadium, South Africa
Royal Léopold Uccle FC, Belgium
RSC Anderlecht, Belgium
San Siro Stadium, Italy
Santos FC, Brazil
Singapore Sports Hub
St. George's Park, UK
Stade de la Beaujoire, France
Swansea FC, UK
Tottenham Hotspur WHL Stadium, UK
VfL Wolfsburg, Germany
Watford FC, UK
Wembley Stadium, UK

Not saying any of these places have our exact travails when it comes to groundshare but I wanted to at least put out there that it can be a good product for something. I just don't believe in it for the proposed use. Once we downgrade we're not upgrading until any other tenant is gone. That is a shame.

[king10]

One other element I'd like more info on

Is the Argos training sched. I just read something about them moving from Erindale last year but are they full time training at Downsview now??

Yes, they're full time at downsview now. In partnership with MLSE.

http://www.thestar.com/sports/argos/2014/07/24/argos_maple_leafs_sports_and_entertainment_partner _on_new_practice_facility.html

While terms of the practice facility agreement weren’t disclosed, Rudge acknowledged it was a multi-year deal, and that the Argos would be paying rent to MLSE.

The team will also be using a privately run fitness facility at Downsview Park. The fitness facility is owned by another company, but is close to the Argos’ new practice facility, Rudge said. Argo coaches will also have offices in Toronto FC’s current training facility.

http://www.torontosun.com/2014/09/09/new-practice-facility-gives-argonauts-some-stability

[GabrielHurl]

One other element I'd like more info on

Is the Argos training sched. I just read something about them moving from Erindale last year but are they full time training at Downsview now??

Yes - they moved into their new facility at Downsview last September

http://i.imgur.com/VS4vgaz.jpg

[Fort York Redcoat]

Bob Young bought the Ticats because his brother was a big Ticats fans and passed away. He's "Caretaking" the team in his memory. I fail to see how that's a bad thing. (you obviously do)

I have a problem with you referring those two positions/situations as equal.

One is actively trying to rid himself of ownership, the other using it as a heartwarming term. Unless he's actively or passively looking to sell the team then the two are very different definitions. I don't see why you'd equate the two.

[Red4ever]

Ok. I'm looking for you March 7 in the pub the first ball that goes awry because of their field turf... ;)

And remember we'd be dealing with Desso.


I agree, but that is pure plastic.

We are talking about the hybrid stuff, so the ground can get torn up when lets say a 300 lb dude is digging in for tackles. The elements can be at play along with the stress on the surface. If lets say the Argos play on a sloppy weather weekend, is the pitch going to be ready for a CCL game on the following Wednesday night?

Yeah I know. Maybe i'm still wishfully thinking at this point.

Some of these Wembley videos ive been watching are great and I don't think all the lines have to go, but as you rightfully point out it's not the lack of innovation that makes this seemingly not viable, it's the unpredictability of weather.

[Phil]

Wembley - mid November 6 days after the Jags played the Cowboys - on a Desso Grassmaster pitch - this is as close as we will know

http://i.imgur.com/eJkscjz.png

That doesn't look horrible.

[Fort York Redcoat]

Yes, they're full time at downsview now. In partnership with MLSE.

http://www.thestar.com/sports/argos/2014/07/24/argos_maple_leafs_sports_and_entertainment_partner _on_new_practice_facility.html

http://www.torontosun.com/2014/09/09/new-practice-facility-gives-argonauts-some-stability


Yes - they moved into their new facility at Downsview last September

http://i.imgur.com/VS4vgaz.jpg


Thanks k and G!

[Beach_Red]

Institutional importance is vastly over rated by those of us who have an interest in that institution being maintained, especially in as large a city as Toronto. Keeping something going because it has existed before doesn't really work in a city where the majority of us did not grow up here.

If MLG can become a Loblaws due to corporate positioning, the Argos can go away too if the real power brokers behind the CFL (Bell/TSN) care to make that decision.

Yeah, I think you're right. Bell are certainly being cautious and taking their time to make the decision but ultimately it's up to them.

[Fort York Redcoat]

Wembley - mid November 6 days after the Jags played the Cowboys - on a Desso Grassmaster pitch - this is as close as we will know

http://i.imgur.com/eJkscjz.png

That's a good story and all but we'll be doing that x 9 with the odd 3 day turnaround. Until I see that I wouldn't hazard a nod but I have a feeling by then it'll be too late.

[GabrielHurl]

I believe London had a lot of rain in the weeks leading up to the NFL and England game (and given it’s London - it must have been a lot of rain)

The big mess in the middle is where the NFL logo was painted. There would be no logos on the Argos field – just the lines – logos would be added digitally by TSN.

And the endzones would be covered by the retractable seating.

[king10]

Just so we can see what this product is doing elsewhere here is a list of those who use the Desso

http://www.dessosports.com/sports/football/football-projects/wembley-stadium-uk (http://www.dessosports.com/sports/football/football-projects/wembley-stadium-uk)

Almaty Central Stadium, Kazakhstan
Arena de Sao Paulo, Brazil
Arsenal FC Emirates Stadium, UK
Arsenal FC training academy, UK
AS Monaco FC Training Centre, France
Aston Villa, UK
AZ Alkmaar, the Netherlands
Burnley FC Turf Moor Stadium, UK
Cardiff City Stadium, UK
Donbass Arena, Ukraine
Feyenoord, the Netherlands
Grêmio, Brazil
Huddersfield Town & Giants, UK
Leigh Sports Village, UK
Liverpool FC, UK
Manchester City, UK
Mbombela Stadium, South Africa
Metalist Stadium, Ukraine
Nelson Mandela Bay Stadium, South Africa
Ocean Stadium, France
Panthessaliko Stadium, Greece
Peter Mokaba Stadium, South Africa
Royal Léopold Uccle FC, Belgium
RSC Anderlecht, Belgium
San Siro Stadium, Italy
Santos FC, Brazil
Singapore Sports Hub
St. George's Park, UK
Stade de la Beaujoire, France
Swansea FC, UK
Tottenham Hotspur WHL Stadium, UK
VfL Wolfsburg, Germany
Watford FC, UK
Wembley Stadium, UK

Not saying any of these places have our exact travails when it comes to groundshare but I wanted to at least put out there that it can be a good product for something. I just don't believe in it for the proposed use. Once we downgrade we're not upgrading until any other tenant is gone. That is a shame.

Swansea ground shares with its rugby team on desso grass master. Cardiff City did from 2009 to 2012 until the rugby team left when the stadium was too large. Those are probably 2 decent examples to compare to.

[Phil]

I believe London had a lot of rain in the weeks leading up to the NFL and England game (and given it’s London - it must have been a lot of rain)

The big mess in the middle is where the NFL logo was painted. There would be no logos on the Argos field – just the lines – logos would be added digitally by TSN.

And the endzones would be covered by the retractable seating.

okay, so just being down at BMO and seeing the south end....the seats are not retractable. I assume this would be the 3rd phase, not slated for this year. How can Larry and the Argos even think about ramming this team in this year?

I am just thinking out loud here.

[Areathrasher]

okay, so just being down at BMO and seeing the south end....the seats are not retractable. I assume this would be the 3rd phase, not slated for this year. How can Larry and the Argos even think about ramming this team in this year?

I am just thinking out loud here.

They aren't. Some journo got confused when Braley said a lease could be agreed by the summer thinking he meant the Argos would be in BMO by the summer and caused all sorts of confusion.

[Phil]

They aren't. Some journo got confused when Braley said a lease could be agreed by the summer thinking he meant the Argos would be in BMO by the summer and caused all sorts of confusion.

My bad. I saw it on twitter and just shook my head. Then this virus took over and I woke up three days later. Thanks for the clarification :D

[king10]

okay, so just being down at BMO and seeing the south end....the seats are not retractable. I assume this would be the 3rd phase, not slated for this year. How can Larry and the Argos even think about ramming this team in this year?

I am just thinking out loud here.

I think they're talking about getting a deal done by this summer for 2017 move in date. Not actually getting the argos in this summer. Also yes the retractable seats would be phase 3 contingent on $30 million of funding. 10 of which (maybe 20 if you believe the province rumours) are secured.

This is the setup you'd be looking at.

Parken Stadium in Coppenhagen.

http://i.imgur.com/VnMOj5El.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/8BzIcjJl.jpg

[mowe]

That's a good story and all but we'll be doing that x 9 with the odd 3 day turnaround. Until I see that I wouldn't hazard a nod but I have a feeling by then it'll be too late.

Well priority scheduling for TFC has been mentioned many times.

I may be in the minority but I'm fine with the faded lines we've seen, it doesn't detract from the experience.

The main issue is playing surface and how much damage CFL will inflict. I'm hopeful that 9-10 games a year wouldn't be too bad.

Side note: The summer deadline is likely mentioned because that's when construction on phase 2 will start. If this is going to happen, MLSE probably wants to do all the renovation at once.

[GabrielHurl]

Phase 2 is the roof - Phase 3 would be for the CFL configuration - if it happens. Both would start at the same time

http://i.imgur.com/5Xakyfp.jpg

[Mulder]

Phase 2 is the roof - Phase 3 would be for the CFL configuration - if it happens. Both would start at the same time

http://i.imgur.com/5Xakyfp.jpg


'Phase 3' always had (and still has) the ability to be slotted into phase 1 or 2.

[Areathrasher]

Probably too late for phase 1 at this stage.

[king10]

'Phase 3' always had (and still has) the ability to be slotted into phase 1 or 2.

well to be fair I think its too late to complete the reconfiguration during phase 1 now. Its almost march.

[bones]

So if this combo turf is soooo good, why aren't the Argo's looking at talking the J's into using it and staying at a place that already works for CFL instead of effing up our place? Yes SkyDome is cavernous but so is BC Place and they can do nice things with cables and fabric I see to create better sound and feeling with smaller crowds.

[OgtheDim]

Phase 3 is the $10 million item.

MLSE won't do it until they are certain of its necessity - they don't want to pay for it.

[glaze]

By now it's inevitable that the Argos are coming. Too much politics at play, the Dome is kicking them out, and the easiest solution is for them to hit BMO.
But, unless MLSE buys the team, I don't think they'll be much better off. They'll still be paying rent of some sort, and MLSE will still be operating the stadium, thus likely taking a big cut of revenues related to concessions, parking, etc.

At the start they may see a bit of an attendance spike, however, many of the obstacles they face in attracting crowds, are still going to be in place. Simply put, there is still too much competition in this city for both corporate dollars, and people's time and entertainment dollar.

The biggest threat to TFC supporters is priority dates for scheduling, and the quality of the pitch. I think they'll give the hybrid surface a go for a year or two, then go back to a fully artificial stadium. No other CFL team plays on grass at this time. Many MLS teams also are still using artificial surfaces. Its too easy and makes too much financial sense for MLSE.

If we lose grass, we are going to lose our ability to bring in big time DPs like Bradley in the future. This has to be our top concern about the groundshare going forward.

[king10]

Phase 3 is the $10 million item.

MLSE won't do it until they are certain of its necessity - they don't want to pay for it.

i believe its $30 million. Includes the new argo change rooms as well as retractable stands.

[king10]

By now it's inevitable that the Argos are coming. Too much politics at play, the Dome is kicking them out, and the easiest solution is for them to hit BMO.
But, unless MLSE buys the team, I don't think they'll be much better off. They'll still be paying rent of some sort, and MLSE will still be operating the stadium, thus likely taking a big cut of revenues related to concessions, parking, etc.

At the start they may see a bit of an attendance spike, however, many of the obstacles they face in attracting crowds, are still going to be in place. Simply put, there is still too much competition in this city for both corporate dollars, and people's time and entertainment dollar.

The biggest threat to TFC supporters is priority dates for scheduling, and the quality of the pitch. I think they'll give the hybrid surface a go for a year or two, then go back to a fully artificial stadium. No other CFL team plays on grass at this time. Many MLS teams also are still using artificial surfaces. Its too easy and makes too much financial sense for MLSE.

If we lose grass, we are going to lose our ability to bring in big time DPs like Bradley in the future. This has to be our top concern about the groundshare going forward.


I really dont think mlse will go to turf. The money they save will be far outweighed by the money lost from fans not renewing because they dont want plastic. Mlse isnt dumb. Plus they already sunk so much money into the undersoil heating. And lets not forget the CSA may also have a say since it is the national soccer stadium and they dont want turf either.

[TFC07]

By now it's inevitable that the Argos are coming. Too much politics at play, the Dome is kicking them out, and the easiest solution is for them to hit BMO.
But, unless MLSE buys the team, I don't think they'll be much better off. They'll still be paying rent of some sort, and MLSE will still be operating the stadium, thus likely taking a big cut of revenues related to concessions, parking, etc.

At the start they may see a bit of an attendance spike, however, many of the obstacles they face in attracting crowds, are still going to be in place. Simply put, there is still too much competition in this city for both corporate dollars, and people's time and entertainment dollar.

The biggest threat to TFC supporters is priority dates for scheduling, and the quality of the pitch. I think they'll give the hybrid surface a go for a year or two, then go back to a fully artificial stadium. No other CFL team plays on grass at this time. Many MLS teams also are still using artificial surfaces. Its too easy and makes too much financial sense for MLSE.

If we lose grass, we are going to lose our ability to bring in big time DPs like Bradley in the future. This has to be our top concern about the groundshare going forward.

Kurt Larson source within TFC/MLSE said they're not going back to fake turf recently. MLSE and City of Toronto isn't stupid go back to fake turf unless they want to lose money and international soccer events (national team games, Euro club friendlies, Gold Cup etc.).

[Fort York Redcoat]

This is the setup you'd be looking at.

Parken Stadium in Coppenhagen.

http://i.imgur.com/VnMOj5El.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/8BzIcjJl.jpg

This setup has a different use, though. This park utilizes the high school benches to have concerts. Just so we're not looking at the grass for our own example of use.

[kshep]

If TFC goes back to turf, you might find the supporters sections all but abandoned. Not sure if people are really willing to take those steps backwards, especially since it would result in be a direct lie from management in regards to TFC being the primary importance for the grounds, ie, no full artifical surface.

The argos best best is to sink some money into York stadium in partnership with the univeristy, like Montreal has. The Argos only need 15 to 20 k seats, if they start selling out every game they could then expand as needed.

Converting the national soccer stadium, and ruining a great thing for a team that back out when they had the chance before is beyond stupid. And could result in the death of TFC in the long term if things like the pitch become an issue. Because once the conversions done, the argos are never leaving. TFC would either have to leave and build a new stadium or suffer never being able to sign any quality players again.

Of course CFL fans want this, they want the argos to be relevant. The bigger question is will the argos fair weather fans actually support them at bmo, the same site they abandoned because they were fair weather fans in the first place, I have my doubts. They didn't want to play at the ex before, can't see why they will want to go and support it at BMO this time around.

[Fort York Redcoat]

Well priority scheduling for TFC has been mentioned many times.

I may be in the minority but I'm fine with the faded lines we've seen, it doesn't detract from the experience.

The main issue is playing surface and how much damage CFL will inflict. I'm hopeful that 9-10 games a year wouldn't be too bad.

Side note: The summer deadline is likely mentioned because that's when construction on phase 2 will start. If this is going to happen, MLSE probably wants to do all the renovation at once.

Again with the not "too bad". :)

Can someone layout how priority scheduling could cure the issue of scheduling?

The MLS schedule is released
The Vcup schedule is released
The CFL schedule is released

There are friendlies and Internationals scheduled in there as well. It sounds pretty challenging to prevent at least a couple 3 day turnarounds in there.

[Fort York Redcoat]

So if this combo turf is soooo good, why aren't the Argo's looking at talking the J's into using it and staying at a place that already works for CFL instead of effing up our place? Yes SkyDome is cavernous but so is BC Place and they can do nice things with cables and fabric I see to create better sound and feeling with smaller crowds.

Because the Jays are done with them. And anything but real grass.

[king10]

This setup has a different use, though. This park utilizes the high school benches to have concerts. Just so we're not looking at the grass for our own example of use.

I know it has a different use. Of course no cfl football is played in denmark. I just mean the endzone stands would retract like that to allow room for cfl endzones.

[brad]

There have been lots of problems with the pitch at Wembely. Here is a recent article about the NFL game there prior to an England qualifier.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/wembley-pitch-completely-ruined-nfl-4631347

Google will turn up a lot of other articles on this.

To be fair though - other articles point to the heavy overuse of Wembley (it's used tons) as the main issue. That said - the article I read that said this cited the FA as the source of this, and the FA makes $$$ of the NFL friendlies. Make of that what you will ...

[GabrielHurl]

It's pretty much the same though - it retracts to allow a stage to be placed there. BMO would retract to unveil the endzones. And they are individual seats - not bench.

http://i.imgur.com/WSfGDil.jpg

[brad]

So if this combo turf is soooo good, why aren't the Argo's looking at talking the J's into using it and staying at a place that already works for CFL instead of effing up our place? Yes SkyDome is cavernous but so is BC Place and they can do nice things with cables and fabric I see to create better sound and feeling with smaller crowds.

They don't care about us. I'm not an Argos fan and don't want them in BMO, but I can certainly see how having there games at a reconfigured BMO would be a better experience (for them and their fans) the the Dome

[brad]

Well priority scheduling for TFC has been mentioned many times.

I may be in the minority but I'm fine with the faded lines we've seen, it doesn't detract from the experience.

The main issue is playing surface and how much damage CFL will inflict. I'm hopeful that 9-10 games a year wouldn't be too bad.

Side note: The summer deadline is likely mentioned because that's when construction on phase 2 will start. If this is going to happen, MLSE probably wants to do all the renovation at once.

Here's what worries me now. They say priority scheduling now. But the Argos draw similar numbers we do (I believe) and their TV numbers blow ours away. I wonder how long it will take for those priorities to flip.

[Yohan]

By now it's inevitable that the Argos are coming. Too much politics at play, the Dome is kicking them out, and the easiest solution is for them to hit BMO.
But, unless MLSE buys the team, I don't think they'll be much better off. They'll still be paying rent of some sort, and MLSE will still be operating the stadium, thus likely taking a big cut of revenues related to concessions, parking, etc.

At the start they may see a bit of an attendance spike, however, many of the obstacles they face in attracting crowds, are still going to be in place. Simply put, there is still too much competition in this city for both corporate dollars, and people's time and entertainment dollar.

One of reasons I hear from Argos fans is that the 'intimate' atmosphere of BMO Field is going to boost attendance like what happened to Alouettes. Argos is averaging 15-18k right now? BMO Field is going to be 30k. Just how many people believe Argos are going to get a boost of 12-15k to sell out BMO Field?

And just how 'welcoming' will Argos games feel playing at a stadium covered in red instead of Argos blue. The little things like presentation is part of game day experience. If I was an Argos fan, I'd still feel like an outsider at BMO Field. (unless Argos plan on rebranding to a red colour)

[king10]

Here's what worries me now. They say priority scheduling now. But the Argos draw similar numbers we do (I believe) and their TV numbers blow ours away. I wonder how long it will take for those priorities to flip.

Its written into the mlse lease agreement that tfc gets priority.

[Fort York Redcoat]

If TFC goes back to turf, you might find the supporters sections all but abandoned. Not sure if people are really willing to take those steps backwards, especially since it would result in be a direct lie from management in regards to TFC being the primary importance for the grounds, ie, no full artifical surface.

The argos best best is to sink some money into York stadium in partnership with the univeristy, like Montreal has. The Argos only need 15 to 20 k seats, if they start selling out every game they could then expand as needed.

Converting the national soccer stadium, and ruining a great thing for a team that back out when they had the chance before is beyond stupid. And could result in the death of TFC in the long term if things like the pitch become an issue. Because once the conversions done, the argos are never leaving. TFC would either have to leave and build a new stadium or suffer never being able to sign any quality players again.

Of course CFL fans want this, they want the argos to be relevant. The bigger question is will the argos fair weather fans actually support them at bmo, the same site they abandoned because they were fair weather fans in the first place, I have my doubts. They didn't want to play at the ex before, can't see why they will want to go and support it at BMO this time around.

http://static.progressivemediagroup.com/uploads/imagelibrary/nri/designbuild/news/york-nov-19-12.jpg

Last time the Argos talked with York it fell through. I don't know if it was about the money they didn't have or the track issue again. Beggars can be choosers in this case.

[Kaz]

With the Paint issue, Seattle has said the only time it is an issue is if there isn't enough turn around, if there is a Seahawks game on Thursday and a Sounders game Saturday it is tough for the ground staff to do .

What has been said is that an Argo's game will never be scheduled before a MLS game. So the Argos would never play on Tuesday with TFC playing on Wednesday, but TFC might play on Saturday and the Argos on Tuesday. If TFC has a Saturday and Wednesday game then the Argos are on the Road.


Seattle has been better at making sure that dates don't connect like that again.


TFC can have 24-26 home games during a season (with Friendlies) So the Argo's would have to figure it out. Water base paint isn't enough.

[king10]

One of reasons I hear from Argos fans is that the 'intimate' atmosphere of BMO Field is going to boost attendance like what happened to Alouettes. Argos is averaging 15-18k right now? BMO Field is going to be 30k. Just how many people believe Argos are going to get a boost of 12-15k to sell out BMO Field?

And just how 'welcoming' will Argos games feel playing at a stadium covered in red instead of Argos blue. The little things like presentation is part of game day experience. If I was an Argos fan, I'd still feel like an outsider at BMO Field. (unless Argos plan on rebranding to a red colour)

cfl capacity will be 25k. There will be no endzone seats. 25k is in line with all other east cfl stadiums.

Also cfl isnt like soccer. They dont care as much about the colour of the seats. For example prior to renos bc played in front of blue seats. Edmonton played in front of red seats. None of which were their primary colours.

[Auzzy]

Kurt Larson source within TFC/MLSE said they're not going back to fake turf recently. MLSE and City of Toronto isn't stupid go back to fake turf unless they want to lose money and international soccer events (national team games, Euro club friendlies, Gold Cup etc.).

Well maybe Kurt's source within TFC/MLSE is the same guy who promised us playoffs in 2014. "Mark it down, write it down, film it" yada yada yada. If the hybrid turf doesn't work out with CFL in the house, or MLSE is sick of losing money on TFC due to over-priced DPs and having to replace the expensive hybrid turf too often, then they will do whatever the hell they thinks works at that time. Maybe they will put in plastic turf, and "improve the experience" by adding cheerleaders for TFC games, more corporate boxes, etc. etc.

[king10]

Well maybe Kurt's source within TFC/MLSE is the same guy who promised us playoffs in 2014. "Mark it down, write it down, film it" yada yada yada. If the hybrid turf doesn't work out with CFL in the house, or MLSE is sick of losing money on TFC due to over-priced DPs and having to replace the expensive hybrid turf too often, then they will do whatever the hell they thinks works at that time. Maybe they will put in plastic turf, and "improve the experience" by adding cheerleaders for TFC games, more corporate boxes, etc. etc.


Then i think the problems would be larger than just the argos at bmo. The problem would be we need new owners. MLSE isnt dumb though, dont think it would ever come to that.

[Phil]

So if this combo turf is soooo good, why aren't the Argo's looking at talking the J's into using it and staying at a place that already works for CFL instead of effing up our place? Yes SkyDome is cavernous but so is BC Place and they can do nice things with cables and fabric I see to create better sound and feeling with smaller crowds.

Well its due to Montreal moving into a more intimate stadium and getting better atmosphere and a little to do with the piching mound. Right now its floated out and boarded down for flat configuration, but for baseball its goes into a real particular position and height. In a grass world that thing would be fixed there. I am sure there is a solution but would the Jays want to examine those costs given the tennant and the payout they get from having them there?

I guess this is where we get the inserted lecture / point that the Argos are old and that somehow means they are owed a place at a stadium.

[TFC07]

Well maybe Kurt's source within TFC/MLSE is the same guy who promised us playoffs in 2014. "Mark it down, write it down, film it" yada yada yada. If the hybrid turf doesn't work out with CFL in the house, or MLSE is sick of losing money on TFC due to over-priced DPs and having to replace the expensive hybrid turf too often, then they will do whatever the hell they thinks works at that time. Maybe they will put in plastic turf, and "improve the experience" by adding cheerleaders for TFC games, more corporate boxes, etc. etc.

Problem is that you not factoring in other events (international soccer) that they're trying to attract. Going to fake turf will be kiss of death for BMO field. They will lose a lot of potential revenue that doesn't include TFC (who before signing big on DP's were making money for MLSE and City of Toronto). Point is: if soccer gets hurt from fake turf, then BMO field no longer will become money making venue for MLSE and City of Toronto. Given how much money MLSE is currently invest into BMO field, I highly doubt they will mess it up by going back to fake turf.

[Fort York Redcoat]

I know it has a different use. Of course no cfl football is played in denmark. I just mean the endzone stands would retract like that to allow room for cfl endzones.

I was clarifying, not correcting you.


If TFC goes back to turf, you might find the supporters sections all but abandoned. Not sure if people are really willing to take those steps backwards, especially since it would result in be a direct lie from management in regards to TFC being the primary importance for the grounds, ie, no full artifical surface.

Converting the national soccer stadium, and ruining a great thing for a team that back out when they had the chance before is beyond stupid. And could result in the death of TFC in the long term if things like the pitch become an issue. Because once the conversions done, the argos are never leaving. TFC would either have to leave and build a new stadium or suffer never being able to sign any quality players again.

Of course CFL fans want this, they want the argos to be relevant. The bigger question is will the argos fair weather fans actually support them at bmo, the same site they abandoned because they were fair weather fans in the first place, I have my doubts. They didn't want to play at the ex before, can't see why they will want to go and support it at BMO this time around.

To be fair, there would be a short term boost in Argos attendance regardless results. We know that as a Toronto things. Something old somewhere new is enough of an excuse.

[kshep]

http://static.progressivemediagroup.com/uploads/imagelibrary/nri/designbuild/news/york-nov-19-12.jpg

Last time the Argos talked with York it fell through. I don't know if it was about the money they didn't have or the track issue again. Beggars can be choosers in this case.

Not sure if I agree that beggars can be choosers, It's farcical that the Argos to bmo is even being considered, since they have back out of at least two stadiums deals if not a third.

As I've stated before, worst case scenario is the pitch becomes terrible and in a crucial play-off or champions League match a back pass to the keeper bobbles and bounces on a shitty Argo chewed up pitch skips the keepers foot and rolls in the net, eliminating TFC from a competition. What if something like that cost us a supporters shield, or an MLS cup.

I for one would absolutely lose my shit if this was to occur. Seems like an unlikely scenario but that the way I tend to think about the Argos being at bmo, for me as a supporter it has to be all about worse case scenerios because I love our club and can't stand the thought of being done in by a second rate CFL team.

[Auzzy]

Then i think the problems would be larger than just the argos at bmo. The problem would be we need new owners. MLSE isnt dumb though, dont think it would ever come to that.

I think you meant to say, the problems would be larger due to the argos at bmo.

Regarding the scheduling, and TFC having priority as per lease agreement: that's priority at the time of scheduling. They don't know the possible CONCACAF scheduling (or how far TFC might make it in that tournament); nor the MLS or CFL playoff schedules when the MLS & CFL schedules are set before the season starts. There are also many other restrictions, due to TV schedules, various other schedules for the different soccer teams involved, etc. They could easily end up with a footy game in BMO field 2 or 3 days after a CFL game. Or worse, maybe on the same weekend.

Will TFC then be allowed to bump the Argos out of a previously-approved slot in the schedule? I don't think so.

[Fort York Redcoat]

Then i think the problems would be larger than just the argos at bmo. The problem would be we need new owners. MLSE isnt dumb though, dont think it would ever come to that.

To what? Because they've done a myriad of things that their fans thought dumb.

[Auzzy]

Problem is that you not factoring in other events (international soccer) that they're trying to attract. Going to fake turf will be kiss of death for BMO field. They will lose a lot of potential revenue that doesn't include TFC (who before signing big on DP's were making money for MLSE and City of Toronto). Point is: if soccer gets hurt from fake turf, then BMO field no longer will become money making venue for MLSE and City of Toronto. Given how much money MLSE is currently invest into BMO field, I highly doubt they will mess it up by going back to fake turf.

Well then maybe they'll stick with a crappy hybrid surface, and spray lots of green paint all over it. Looks good for the first 10 minutes of the game or so.

[Fort York Redcoat]

I think you meant to say, the problems would be larger due to the argos at bmo.

Regarding the scheduling, and TFC having priority as per lease agreement: that's priority at the time of scheduling. They don't know the possible CONCACAF scheduling (or how far TFC might make it in that tournament); nor the MLS or CFL playoff schedules when the MLS & CFL schedules are set before the season starts. There are also many other restrictions, due to TV schedules, various other schedules for the different soccer teams involved, etc. They could easily end up with a footy game in BMO field 2 or 3 days after a CFL game. Or worse, maybe on the same weekend.

Will TFC then be allowed to bump the Argos out of a previously-approved slot in the schedule? I don't think so.

Even if I HAD faith that TFC couldn't get bumped my priority would be the National sides as well. I doubt that's been talked about much in what order of priority it is but let me tell you how nauseous I'd become learning my future road trip to Montreal is because Saputo respects our game more than my hometown.

[Auzzy]

Even if I HAD faith that TFC couldn't get bumped my priority would be the National sides as well. I doubt that's been talked about much in what order of priority it is but let me tell you how nauseous I'd become learning my future road trip to Montreal is because Saputo respects our game more than my hometown.

Yes very good point, hadn't thought of that at the moment.

[king10]

To what? Because they've done a myriad of things that their fans thought dumb.


Installing turf. It would remove too many revenue streams like rugby. National soccer games. Friendlies. Being able to sign dps.

[king10]

I think you meant to say, the problems would be larger due to the argos at bmo.

Regarding the scheduling, and TFC having priority as per lease agreement: that's priority at the time of scheduling. They don't know the possible CONCACAF scheduling (or how far TFC might make it in that tournament); nor the MLS or CFL playoff schedules when the MLS & CFL schedules are set before the season starts. There are also many other restrictions, due to TV schedules, various other schedules for the different soccer teams involved, etc. They could easily end up with a footy game in BMO field 2 or 3 days after a CFL game. Or worse, maybe on the same weekend.

Will TFC then be allowed to bump the Argos out of a previously-approved slot in the schedule? I don't think so.


Well the jays are allowed to bump the argos from a pre approved time slot if they made the playoffs. Dont see why tfc wouldnt be able to either if its written into the contract. Argos are beggars. They cant be choosers.

[OgtheDim]

One of reasons I hear from Argos fans is that the 'intimate' atmosphere of BMO Field is going to boost attendance like what happened to Alouettes. Argos is averaging 15-18k right now? BMO Field is going to be 30k. Just how many people believe Argos are going to get a boost of 12-15k to sell out BMO Field?

And just how 'welcoming' will Argos games feel playing at a stadium covered in red instead of Argos blue. The little things like presentation is part of game day experience. If I was an Argos fan, I'd still feel like an outsider at BMO Field. (unless Argos plan on rebranding to a red colour)

I've read Argo fans who think BMO will be painted blue for them, based on TV numbers.

As for the attendance #'s, the Argos have been papering for years - BMO won't change that. But, TSN and CFL apologists in the media will go on and on about how great the atmosphere is no matter how many actually show up.

[Auzzy]

Installing turf. It would remove too many revenue streams like rugby. National soccer games. Friendlies. Being able to sign dps.

^ That's why New England, Seattle, and Portland never sign DPs; or host national games or friendlies.

And thinking of the viewership, I highly doubt that TSN/Bell would allow an Argos game to be bumped for a CONCACAF game.

Plus FYR mentioned the national team games. Those are sometimes booked on fairly short notice, especially friendlies. Of course they will go to Montreal if the Argos are already booked at BMO on that day or a few days before.

[king10]

I've read Argo fans who think BMO will be painted blue for them, based on TV numbers.

As for the attendance #'s, the Argos have been papering for years - BMO won't change that. But, TSN and CFL apologists in the media will go on and on about how great the atmosphere is no matter how many actually show up.

ive heard ppl say tfc is papering as well. Especially those late season games.

[king10]

^ That's why New England, Seattle, and Portland never sign DPs; or host national games or friendlies.

And thinking of the viewership, I highly doubt that TSN/Bell would allow an Argos game to be bumped for a CONCACAF game.

Plus FYR mentioned the national team games. Those are sometimes booked on fairly short notice, especially friendlies. Of course they will go to Montreal if the Argos are already booked at BMO on that day or a few days before.

the fifa intl calendar is known a year in advance. The csa can easily reserve time slots well in advance to ensure the argos dont schedule there.

[Auzzy]

"The CSA" and "easily" in the same sentence, hmmm....

[king10]

"The CSA" and "easily" in the same sentence, hmmm....

I have faith with the new directors. Especially victor montagliani, he seems to be taking the csa in the right direction. Passed leaders didnt share his vision.

[TFC07]

Even if I HAD faith that TFC couldn't get bumped my priority would be the National sides as well. I doubt that's been talked about much in what order of priority it is but let me tell you how nauseous I'd become learning my future road trip to Montreal is because Saputo respects our game more than my hometown.

Yup. MLSE will never be right owners when comes to soccer.

They obviously have no clue what they're doing and we're seeing results of that on-field since day one. If wasn't for strong local support for soccer in this market, then TFC would have folded already like Chivas USA.

I personally believe that winning TFC team will explore in this market and truly make BMO field the place to be in summer time (sorry Blue Jay fans, but baseball is boring sport with no atmosphere whatsoever).

[Fort York Redcoat]

the fifa intl calendar is known a year in advance. The csa can easily reserve time slots well in advance to ensure the argos dont schedule there.

Can they? They have the ability to, surely. But we're talking about something with no precedent. Do you know for certain of the National teams have priority?

[king10]

Yup. MLSE will never be right owners when comes to soccer.

They obviously have no clue what they're doing and we're seeing results of that on-field since day one. If wasn't for strong local support for soccer in this market, then TFC would have folded already like Chivas USA.

I personally believe that winning TFC team will explore in this market and truly make BMO field the place to be in summer time (sorry Blue Jay fans, but baseball is boring sport with no atmosphere whatsoever).


Your last statement is a matter of opinion. I know lots of ppl who enjoy a summer ball game. People have different tastes. Nothing wrong with that.

[king10]

Can they? They have the ability to, surely. But we're talking about something with no precedent. Do you know for certain of the National teams have priority?

Not at a computer at the moment. When i get to one ill try to dig up the lease agreement.

[Phil]

ive heard ppl say tfc is papering as well. Especially those late season games.

TFC went to counting tickets sold vs. scanned at the gate. That is why the number seems inflated compared to bums in seats. This happened 3 or 4 years ago now.

[Fort York Redcoat]

Installing turf. It would remove too many revenue streams like rugby. National soccer games. Friendlies. Being able to sign dps.


^ That's why New England, Seattle, and Portland never sign DPs; or host national games or friendlies.

And thinking of the viewership, I highly doubt that TSN/Bell would allow an Argos game to be bumped for a CONCACAF game.



If other teams can sign DP's with turf you're damn right MLSE would consider it with Desso making the transition. To think they are above that, smarter than that, is to say "Never". Never a great idea.

[Fort York Redcoat]

Not at a computer at the moment. When i get to one ill try to dig up the lease agreement.

I would greatly appreciate that. It would be a big step towards this Argos talk. Except for the schedule still being to crammed to avoid the fall in quality of the pitch...

[OgtheDim]

^ That's why New England, Seattle, and Portland never sign DPs; or host national games or friendlies.

...

To be fair, Seattle didn't get a game for years, even with FIFA designating their surface as FIFA grade. And when did they last play in Portland or NER?

And, can anybody have seen Kaka or Defoe or Gerrard or Lampard going to a turf team?

A local CFL operation doesn't even compare to the money TFC gets from one international friendly. The CFL's growth potential is nowhere near as good as soccer. (Yes, Mulder, we've had this argument before but CIS attendance does not count as CFL interest). MLS has the potential to be a BIG revenue generator. Nobody, but Nobody is talking about huge future growth in revenues for the CFL. They are for MLS.

If MLSE want to spend $3- 5 million on a pitch that undercuts the future for the sake of an operational money loser, then they are far more stupid then they have been up until now.

[king10]

Can they? They have the ability to, surely. But we're talking about something with no precedent. Do you know for certain of the National teams have priority?
right of the City/Board to use the stadium for a significant part of any available dates annually on a cost recovery basis only for the City, CNE, World's Fair and Olympics (subject to use for regularly scheduled major league soccer games and FIFA games) and for other public events; http://ottawa.ca/cal...Main Report.pdf (http://ottawa.ca/calendar/ottawa/citycouncil/ec/2009/02-24/8-CSS0013-Document%201%20Main%20Report.pdf)

not to mention the lease agreement w the argos can be drawn up so they are behind the csa in priority

[Fort York Redcoat]

Yup. MLSE will never be right owners when comes to soccer.

They obviously have no clue what they're doing and we're seeing results of that on-field since day one. If wasn't for strong local support for soccer in this market, then TFC would have folded already like Chivas USA.

I personally believe that winning TFC team will explore in this market and truly make BMO field the place to be in summer time (sorry Blue Jay fans, but baseball is boring sport with no atmosphere whatsoever).

Haha as much as I personally agree with you concerning America's pastime this still paints a picture for me of the sports landscape:

https://cdn3.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/C53bxQfxgLS_MFSc2-Zn1htvSfM=/0x0:3990x2660/709x473/cdn0.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_image/image/45743438/LangRomero.0.0.jpg


So do we hope they only have girls?g:D

[Phil]

If other teams can sign DP's with turf you're damn right MLSE would consider it with Desso making the transition. To think they are above that, smarter than that, is to say "Never". Never a great idea.

I fall back on the 'return on investment' point of view. Why would MLSE invest millions in grass and the heating infrastructure only to yank it up so they can get 10 more dates at home, threaten the franchise established there and cut off / limit other events there that they *still* get a cut on.

You are right, never say never, but the money end (the only end they seem to understand) doesn't point to plastic being the answer.

[mowe]

Again with the not "too bad". :)

Can someone layout how priority scheduling could cure the issue of scheduling?

The MLS schedule is released
The Vcup schedule is released
The CFL schedule is released

There are friendlies and Internationals scheduled in there as well. It sounds pretty challenging to prevent at least a couple 3 day turnarounds in there.

There could be a few 3 day turnarounds, probably for cup games. But I think you're overestimating how crowded the schedule will be.

Argos play 9-10 games mid-June to mid-November. That's 20 weeks. This year TFC has 14 games in that span, a little higher than normal due to the reno. Add in 2-3 playoff games (I know...), 2 VCup, and 2 CCL.

MLS schedule comes out first so we get priority for all dates. CFL commissioner has said he's willing to work with TFC on scheduling.

They could do TFC Friday/Sat, Argo Sun/Mon to allow for five day turnarounds. Schedule VCup, CCL, and friendlies on weeks Argos are away (which will be 10 weeks of the time frame I stated).

Really shouldn't be too hard to maintain a minimum 5 day turnaround after Argos games. I imagine we'll get more home games before mid-June too.

[Yohan]

To be fair, Seattle didn't get a game for years, even with FIFA designating their surface as FIFA grade. And when did they last play in Portland or NER?

And, can anybody have seen Kaka or Defoe or Gerrard or Lampard going to a turf team?

Well, Gillette stadium is hosting Gold Cup games.

Throw enough money at a player and they get enticed? Dempsey and Martins may not be top tier player, but Seattle has other things going for them to make it attractive

[king10]

Well, Gillette stadium is hosting Gold Cup games.

Throw enough money at a player and they get enticed? Dempsey and Martins may not be top tier player, but Seattle has other things going for them to make it attractive

Is gilette bringing in a temp grass surface tho?

[Beach_Red]

I've read Argo fans who think BMO will be painted blue for them, based on TV numbers.

As for the attendance #'s, the Argos have been papering for years - BMO won't change that. But, TSN and CFL apologists in the media will go on and on about how great the atmosphere is no matter how many actually show up.

And in a small stadium the atmosphere might actually be good - there's no reason an Als-Argos game wouldn't have good atmosphere, or Ti-Cats-Argos in a good stadium. Of course, that stadium should be a CFL stadium and also home to university and even high school football in the GTA.

But we have no sports entrepeneurs with any vision in this city, it's all corporate money acting the way corporate money always acts.

[TFC07]

Well, Gillette stadium is hosting Gold Cup games.

Throw enough money at a player and they get enticed? Dempsey and Martins may not be top tier player, but Seattle has other things going for them to make it attractive

But aren't they putting real grass top of their fake turf like they have in the past?

[Areathrasher]

To be fair, Seattle didn't get a game for years, even with FIFA designating their surface as FIFA grade. And when did they last play in Portland or NER?



Yanks played a Gold Cup game in Portland in 2013.
Yanks are playing a Gold Cup game in Foxboro this summer.

Brazil played Portugal in Foxboro in 2013 and Portugal are playing Mexico there in June.

[TFC07]

Yanks played a Gold Cup game in Portland in 2013.
Yanks are playing a Gold Cup game in Foxboro this summer.

Brazil played Portugal in Foxboro in 2013 and Portugal are playing Mexico there in June.

But they're putting grass for those games though.

[king10]

Yanks played a Gold Cup game in Portland in 2013.
Yanks are playing a Gold Cup game in Foxboro this summer.

Brazil played Portugal in Foxboro in 2013 and Portugal are playing Mexico there in June.

were some of those games on temp grass surfaces?

the canmnt doesnt want to playon turf. Thats been made clear

[Mulder]

There could be a few 3 day turnarounds, probably for cup games. But I think you're overestimating how crowded the schedule will be.

Argos play 9-10 games mid-June to mid-November. That's 20 weeks. This year TFC has 14 games in that span, a little higher than normal due to the reno. Add in 2-3 playoff games (I know...), 2 VCup, and 2 CCL.

MLS schedule comes out first so we get priority for all dates. CFL commissioner has said he's willing to work with TFC on scheduling.

They could do TFC Friday/Sat, Argo Sun/Mon to allow for five day turnarounds. Schedule VCup, CCL, and friendlies on weeks Argos are away (which will be 10 weeks of the time frame I stated).

Really shouldn't be too hard to maintain a minimum 5 day turnaround after Argos games. I imagine we'll get more home games before mid-June too.

CFL Teams are required to submit a list of dates available home dates for next season to the league commissioner by September. The Commissioners office is to distribute a draft schedule to the teams for comments by October 15th.

[Beach_Red]

To be fair, Seattle didn't get a game for years, even with FIFA designating their surface as FIFA grade. And when did they last play in Portland or NER?

And, can anybody have seen Kaka or Defoe or Gerrard or Lampard going to a turf team?

A local CFL operation doesn't even compare to the money TFC gets from one international friendly. The CFL's growth potential is nowhere near as good as soccer. (Yes, Mulder, we've had this argument before but CIS attendance does not count as CFL interest). MLS has the potential to be a BIG revenue generator. Nobody, but Nobody is talking about huge future growth in revenues for the CFL. They are for MLS.

If MLSE want to spend $3- 5 million on a pitch that undercuts the future for the sake of an operational money loser, then they are far more stupid then they have been up until now.


Shh, they're still negotiating the CBA....

[Fort York Redcoat]

right of the City/Board to use the stadium for a significant part of any available dates annually on a cost recovery basis only for the City, CNE, World's Fair and Olympics (subject to use for regularly scheduled major league soccer games and FIFA games) and for other public events; http://ottawa.ca/cal...Main Report.pdf (http://ottawa.ca/calendar/ottawa/citycouncil/ec/2009/02-24/8-CSS0013-Document%201%20Main%20Report.pdf)

not to mention the lease agreement w the argos can be drawn up so they are behind the csa in priority

I appreciate the quote and the link (I got it saved for full perusal throughout this process now thanks!)

but this doesn't exactly put me at ease since this could all be renegotiated, no?

[king10]

I would greatly appreciate that. It would be a big step towards this Argos talk. Except for the schedule still being to crammed to avoid the fall in quality of the pitch...


Check out the previous page. I posted a portion of the lease agreement.

[Areathrasher]

But they're putting grass for those games though.

So?

The question was when did those venues last host the USMNT and International Friendlies.

[Fort York Redcoat]

CFL Teams are required to submit a list of dates available home dates for next season to the league commissioner by September. The Commissioners office is to distribute a draft schedule to the teams for comments by October 15th.

Um. This goes way against what I was getting thus far.

CFL sched is submitted before MLS or Vcup or friendlies are decided then? That sounds challenging.

[king10]

I appreciate the quote and the link (I got it saved for full perusal throughout this process now thanks!)

but this doesn't exactly put me at ease since this could all be renegotiated, no?

there you are. Yes of course it could be. But im sure the csa and mlse will be at the negotiating table. They are primary tennants. If the argos dont want to be third priority too bad they have nowhere else to turn. Plus the cfl has said they would be willing to work with soccer on scheduling. 30 soccer games to work around is better than 81 jays games. The argos would be stupid not to accept tfc and csas terms

[king10]

So?

The question was when did those venues last host the USMNT and International Friendlies.


But ppl said mlse would switch to turf to save cost. Installing temp grass surfaces to attract friendlies and NT games isnt saving costs

[OgtheDim]

On another note, a lot of the issue with gridiron usage at Houston and Chicago is mandated local use, mostly by high school football teams.

I give it 1 season of Argo usage until there is a push to have the Metro Bowl at BMO instead of the Dome.

So, add 1 game per year to that list of gridiron games.


I give it 3 seasons until a Vanier Cup comes to call.

And, don't forget, Braley has 3 more Grey Cups he can cash in on - he'd love a Vanier Cup/Grey Cup double weekend - wouldn't that be wonderful if we are in the playoffs at that time.

[king10]

Um. This goes way against what I was getting thus far.

CFL sched is submitted before MLS or Vcup or friendlies are decided then? That sounds challenging.

argos were always scheduling around the jays. Wasnt a problem then. Cfl would know they have to schedule around soccer. The outgoing commisioner accepted that

[king10]

On another note, a lot of the issue with gridiron usage at Houston and Chicago is mandated local use, mostly by high school football teams.

I give it 1 season of Argo usage until there is a push to have the Metro Bowl at BMO instead of the Dome.

So, add 1 game per year to that list of gridiron games.


I give it 3 seasons until a Vanier Cup comes to call.

And, don't forget, Braley has 3 more Grey Cups he can cash in on - he'd love a Vanier Cup/Grey Cup double weekend - wouldn't that be wonderful if we are in the playoffs at that time.


Ofsaa bowl games were at centennial stadium last yr. ron joyce stadium at mac this year.

And vanier cup would be last week of november so unless tfc was hosting the mls cup it wouldnt affect the field.

[king10]

Ofsaa bowl games were at centennial stadium last yr. ron joyce stadium at mac this year.

And vanier cup would be last week of november so unless tfc was hosting the mls cup it wouldnt affect the field.


And of course they can just bid on hosting the events in different years

[Fort York Redcoat]

there you are. Yes of course it could be. But im sure the csa and mlse will be at the negotiating table. They are primary tennants. If the argos dont want to be third priority too bad they have nowhere else to turn. Plus the cfl has said they would be willing to work with soccer on scheduling. 30 soccer games to work around is better than 81 jays games. The argos would be stupid not to accept tfc and csas terms

Again with the "stupid"

You presume a lot in this situation, k.

The Argos have fell out of deals over less. And I wouldn't call them "stupid" for it. Simply misguided.

[kshep]

I question anyone's commitment to support or follow TFC if they at all think that the argos moving to bmo is a good thing, as a TFC supporter our only commitment should be for what is best for TFC period. Full stop.

I consider myself a man of principal, as such, if the argos to bmo happens I personally will never watch or support TFC again. Because it will mean a complete lack of commitment by ownership to protect the interest of the club and professional soccer in my opionion.

This does not have to happen, and if it does I'm out.

[king10]

Again with the "stupid"

You presume a lot in this situation, k.

The Argos have fell out of deals over less. And I wouldn't call them "stupid" for it. Simply misguided.

well if theyre stupid enough to not accept the terms then they wouldnt be playing at bmo and there would ne no issue

[Mulder]

Um. This goes way against what I was getting thus far.

CFL sched is submitted before MLS or Vcup or friendlies are decided then? That sounds challenging.

It's right in the CFL constitution.

http://media.cfldb.ca/documents/appendix-e-part-2-cfl-constitution.pdf

(b) Not later than September 1 in the calendar year preceding the schedule year each MemberClub shall inform the Commissioner which dates, if any, are not available for a game in its homestadium, and shall further advise which dates are most preferred for its home games.(c) The Commissioner shall prepare, or cause to be prepared not later than October 15, a draftschedule of games to be played by each Member Club and shall distribute a copy of the totalschedule to each Member Club for its comments.

I have no idea when MLS or VCup schedules are decided, or at least the drafts. If a Draft schedule is complete for the CFL 4 months before the actual release. I'd imagine it should be something similar for MLS as they have to fit in more games with more teams.

[king10]

I question anyone's commitment to support or follow TFC if they at all think that the argos moving to bmo is a good thing, as a TFC supporter our only commitment should be for what is best for TFC period. Full stop.

I consider myself a man of principal, as such, if the argos to bmo happens I personally will never watch or support TFC again. Because it will mean a complete lack of commitment by ownership to protect the interest of the club and professional soccer in my opionion.

This does not have to happen, and if it does I'm out.

dont think its a good thing. Only a sensible thing given the options. Im a huge canmnt and tfc supporter as well as the cfl. They arent mutually exclusive.

[kshep]

argos were always scheduling around the jays. Wasnt a problem then. Cfl would know they have to schedule around soccer. The outgoing commisioner accepted that

Doesn't mean the new commissioner has too though, different man, different opinions, different aganda.

[king10]

Doesn't mean the new commissioner has too though, different man, different opinions, different aganda.


Well if thats the case the argos wont be at bmo because mlse wont agree to any terms where soccer isnt first.

[Fort York Redcoat]

I question anyone's commitment to support or follow TFC if they at all think that the argos moving to bmo is a good thing, as a TFC supporter our only commitment should be for what is best for TFC period. Full stop.

I consider myself a man of principal, as such, if the argos to bmo happens I personally will never watch or support TFC again. Because it will mean a complete lack of commitment by ownership to protect the interest of the club and professional soccer in my opionion.

This does not have to happen, and if it does I'm out.

Question away but not here.

Everyone is entitled to support the way they want. You are free to attend or abstain or protest in a way you see fit but there is no need to call out other people's dedication to this club.

It won't be tolerated. Please refrain from this line of attack again.

Thank you for your co-operation.

[Beach_Red]

Again with the "stupid"

You presume a lot in this situation, k.

The Argos have fell out of deals over less. And I wouldn't call them "stupid" for it. Simply misguided.

But they always had the Dome to fall back on in those situations.

[Fort York Redcoat]

well if theyre stupid enough to not accept the terms then they wouldnt be playing at bmo and there would ne no issue

harsh.

[OgtheDim]

.And vanier cup would be last week of november so unless tfc was hosting the mls cup it wouldnt affect the field.

Conference final second legs were the last week of November.

And there is talk of the Cup Final being played up until Dec 14.

(Don't get me started on what is going to happen when WC 2022 happens in Nov Dec)

[king10]

harsh.


Sorry i dont mean to be harsh towards you. I mean tfc has to show the argos whose boss in negotations. Give them a take it or leave it offer regarding scheduling priority. Tfc and the csa has the leverage. Argos arent really in a bargaining position. They have no stadium to fall back on.

[Fort York Redcoat]

It's right in the CFL constitution.

http://media.cfldb.ca/documents/appendix-e-part-2-cfl-constitution.pdf

(b) Not later than September 1 in the calendar year preceding the schedule year each MemberClub shall inform the Commissioner which dates, if any, are not available for a game in its homestadium, and shall further advise which dates are most preferred for its home games.(c) The Commissioner shall prepare, or cause to be prepared not later than October 15, a draftschedule of games to be played by each Member Club and shall distribute a copy of the totalschedule to each Member Club for its comments.

I have no idea when MLS or VCup schedules are decided, or at least the drafts. If a Draft schedule is complete for the CFL 4 months before the actual release. I'd imagine it should be something similar for MLS as they have to fit in more games with more teams.

Oh, M, I wasn't doubting your authority on CFL scheduling I was referring to the scheds you don't follow (like myself, I don't know how early they need to decide either). With the little notice we get here following Vcup and friendlies it has to be a challenge adding another schedule to the mix.

[kshep]

dont think its a good thing. Only a sensible thing given the options. Im a huge canmnt and tfc supporter as well as the cfl. They arent mutually exclusive.

Might not be, but your a pointy ball fan which I happen to think is one of the most boring pro sports in the world, you have a divested interest in seeing the argos at bmo, I don't. Which means I reserve the right to think the argos to bmo is the biggest bunch of bullshit in the world, as a soccer supporter and a MLS TFC first soccer supporter( I've stopped watching other soccer for the most part and only watch MLS exclusively outside of champions league/euro cup) I am completely enraged that this might happen, to the point that I would walk away and start following and supporting another MLS side that places soccer as its first priority.

[Fort York Redcoat]

But they always had the Dome to fall back on in those situations.

What's the Sched look like in Fort Mac? g:D

[king10]

Might not be, but your a pointy ball fan which I happen to think is one of the most boring pro sports in the world, you have a divested interest in seeing the argos at bmo, I don't. Which means I reserve the right to think the argos to bmo is the biggest bunch of bullshit in the world, as a soccer supporter and a MLS TFC first soccer supporter( I've stopped watching other soccer for the most part and only watch MLS exclusively outside of champions league/euro cup) I am completely enraged that this might happen, to the point that I would walk away and start following and supporting another MLS side that places soccer as its first priority.

you're entitled to your opinion as i am to mine. Cheers

[kshep]

Question away but not here.

Everyone is entitled to support the way they want. You are free to attend or abstain or protest in a way you see fit but there is no need to call out other people's dedication to this club.

It won't be tolerated. Please refrain from this line of attack again.

Thank you for your co-operation.

Noted, wasn't meaning to attack anyone directly. Will do a better job of policing myself in the future, my apologies to anyone offended.

[kshep]

you're entitled to your opinion as i am to mine. Cheers

Agreed, seems we agree to disagree. Hope to meet up with you some match day for a pint or two. Cheers

[Fort York Redcoat]

Might not be, but your a pointy ball fan which I happen to think is one of the most boring pro sports in the world, you have a divested interest in seeing the argos at bmo, I don't. Which means I reserve the right to think the argos to bmo is the biggest bunch of bullshit in the world, as a soccer supporter and a MLS TFC first soccer supporter( I've stopped watching other soccer for the most part and only watch MLS exclusively outside of champions league/euro cup) I am completely enraged that this might happen, to the point that I would walk away and start following and supporting another MLS side that places soccer as its first priority.

May I suggest, as we've talking about supporting in general, that it doesn't take you switching teams to show your feelings on the matter. As mad as this makes you I'm sure you've enjoyed following your local. You never going to BMO doesn't belittle you as a supporter. Catching every game on tele or down the pub and having a gab here, Hell coming to T.O. for away games at Joe's shows a commitment and dedication that not everyone is able to do.

If it does or doesn't go down, know I'll be there at Joe's for away games. Hope to see you there.:thumbsup:

[brad]

TFC went to counting tickets sold vs. scanned at the gate. That is why the number seems inflated compared to bums in seats. This happened 3 or 4 years ago now.

This was league wide, was it not? Considering the leauge often cites "attendance" as proof of leagues growth/strength, it's not surprising.

[kshep]

May I suggest, as we've talking about supporting in general, that it doesn't take you switching teams to show your feelings on the matter. As mad as this makes you I'm sure you've enjoyed following your local. You never going to BMO doesn't belittle you as a supporter. Catching every game on tele or down the pub and having a gab here, Hell coming to T.O. for away games at Joe's shows a commitment and dedication that not everyone is able to do.

If it does or doesn't go down, know I'll be there at Joe's for away games. Hope to see you there.:thumbsup:

I see what your getting at, and yeah maybe I might be a tad over the top.. tends to happen being welsh :). And yeah I love supporting K-W United, have seasons and am thankful that I can take my boy to see live matches 20 mins from home.

Speaking of Joe's, is the atmosphere on game days conducive to bring a 4 year old, it's been a few years since my wife and I have made it to Joe's before a match, mainly because we favor taking the train in these days. Would love to get the boy out for a March to the grounds this year, as he loves the club and was right in the middle of the post game supporter rally after the Portland win, trying his best to chant and dancing up a storm.

Ps. His favorite thing is to walk around singing TFC-CHA-CHA-CHA TFC-CHA-CHA-CHA, and he automatically assumes any soccer team wearing red is TFC. Might just be the dad in me, be he makes my day!

[WestStandGeoff]

It's a federal election year.
Maybe the Argos can get that $10 million and use it to expand the stadium at York U.
Also could get more money into the University for other stuff, like practice facilities etc.


I don't think Feds are going to contribute any money especially with oil prices being down.

I think it's deeper than that - Feds have already said no to others asking for stadium money. Quebec city wanting a new arena to attract an NHL team back is a good example... new CFL stadium in Regina that's currently under development (without fed dollars) another good one.

So if they gave money to Argos to move to BMO, it would make them look bad by changing course on established policy, and more so piss off the rest of the country by apparently giving Toronto something nobody else is allowed to have.

[Fort York Redcoat]

I see what your getting at, and yeah maybe I might be a tad over the top.. tends to happen being welsh :). And yeah I love supporting K-W United, have seasons and am thankful that I can take my boy to see live matches 20 mins from home.

Speaking of Joe's, is the atmosphere on game days conducive to bring a 4 year old, it's been a few years since my wife and I have made it to Joe's before a match, mainly because we favor taking the train in these days. Would love to get the boy out for a March to the grounds this year, as he loves the club and was right in the middle of the post game supporter rally after the Portland win, trying his best to chant and dancing up a storm.

Ps. His favorite thing is to walk around singing TFC-CHA-CHA-CHA TFC-CHA-CHA-CHA, and he automatically assumes any soccer team wearing red is TFC. Might just be the dad in me, be he makes my day!

Sweet. :)

I would reckon that the home opener will have a march your boy would enjoy (probably not RIGHT at the front ;) for safety's sake )

As for gamedays nowadays there's always a couple kids around (It's been 9 years. That kind of thing happens as you well know :) )

[WestStandGeoff]

I see what your getting at, and yeah maybe I might be a tad over the top.. tends to happen being welsh :). And yeah I love supporting K-W United, have seasons and am thankful that I can take my boy to see live matches 20 mins from home.

Speaking of Joe's, is the atmosphere on game days conducive to bring a 4 year old, it's been a few years since my wife and I have made it to Joe's before a match, mainly because we favor taking the train in these days. Would love to get the boy out for a March to the grounds this year, as he loves the club and was right in the middle of the post game supporter rally after the Portland win, trying his best to chant and dancing up a storm.

Ps. His favorite thing is to walk around singing TFC-CHA-CHA-CHA TFC-CHA-CHA-CHA, and he automatically assumes any soccer team wearing red is TFC. Might just be the dad in me, be he makes my day!

I've been bringing my (now) 2 1/2 year old since he was born, and I've never felt it was a problem. Joe and his wife are always glad to see the little guy, and make a point to come say hi. It is a bar, so you don't expect conversations to sound like a Disney movie, but with that said everyone has been welcoming and respectful of the "next generation RPB's".

[kshep]

Excellent, sounds like we'll have to take the early train down and join the masses. Cheers fellas.

[sully]

http://cfldb.ca/stadium-status/toronto/

this article has some informative background for where we find ourselves now with the argos a

[kshep]

http://cfldb.ca/stadium-status/toronto/

this article has some informative background for where we find ourselves now with the argos a

Good read, leaves me full of dread that it might actually happen. Oh well though, it's not my stadium nor my soccer team to ruin, just along for the ride for the time being. Will keep my fingers crossed that it doesn't go through.

[OgtheDim]

Pardon me if I don't really care about an opinion piece on a CFL blog.


Has about as much weight and depth as twitter.

[MightyDM]

I think it's deeper than that - Feds have already said no to others asking for stadium money. Quebec city wanting a new arena to attract an NHL team back is a good example... new CFL stadium in Regina that's currently under development (without fed dollars) another good one.

So if they gave money to Argos to move to BMO, it would make them look bad by changing course on established policy, and more so piss off the rest of the country by apparently giving Toronto something nobody else is allowed to have.

on one of the other threads they cite some huge figure of public $$$$$ for CFL stadia - not my figure but worth checking out. I think they say $1 BN

[Still Kicking]

The most hopeful section of that CFL blurb (imho) - my underline below. The problem remains that the Argos are just not to be trusted to be the drivers towards the best (or any)two sport integrity solution. They are a sinking ship and have been for decades now. If the NFL ever creates an award for inspiring the most people to become fans of the NFL - the Argos would win it every year. To think that any of the remaining Argo fans think that Mistake by the Lake version two is anything but a disaster in the making...but I guess beggars can't be choosers..

"Options to protect the integrity of the field for both tenants have been suggested including a hybrid natural/synthetic surface, grass varieties that stand up to athletic use, moveable field turf surface to be placed on top of the grass surface for football games and painting and removing lines for each sport as necessary."

[Fort York Redcoat]

To think that any of the remaining Argo fans think that Mistake by the Lake version two is anything but a disaster in the making...but I guess beggars can't be choosers..

"Options to protect the integrity of the field for both tenants have been suggested including a hybrid natural/synthetic surface, grass varieties that stand up to athletic use, moveable field turf surface to be placed on top of the grass surface for football games and painting and removing lines for each sport as necessary."



The mistake by the lake was deemed as much for the weather as much as the design of the stadium. It may be a mistake to move them back there but not because of the same level of discomfort for the fans. BMO would at least have a roof and could never be the wind tunnel the previous stadium was.

A movable surface on top of grass can be done 2 ways - cheap so the grass suffers or
incredibly expensively to preserve both surfaces. NOT likely with the teams we're talking about.

[Still Kicking]

The mistake by the lake was deemed as much for the weather as much as the design of the stadium. It may be a mistake to move them back there but not because of the same level of discomfort for the fans. BMO would at least have a roof and could never be the wind tunnel the previous stadium was.

A movable surface on top of grass can be done 2 ways - cheap so the grass suffers or
incredibly expensively to preserve both surfaces. NOT likely with the teams we're talking about.

Hear, Hear, hey, hey. I was at The Grey Cup 1982. I remember that cold, cold rainy day. One set of stands covered, the other exposed. The chanting of "we want a dome" (82 was the first year that beer could be sold in Ontario stadiums!!!). I say flip a coin on the question of weather versus design as the basis of the "Mistake". Hey, it was an awful design when the Argos were sole sports tenants prior to the Blue Jay era. The CNE built it for grandstand shows and various events like car races and police games and Scottish marching band competitions. The Argos as orphan tenants goes back more than a half a century...

Fully agree that the movable surface on top of grass will not be likely considering the Argos have no money, lose money every year and can't be trusted to act in their own best interest, never mind care about a soccer pitch...

[MKR]

i have a question about CFL and MLS teams sharing the same stadium. Sorry if it has already been answered at some point earlier, but you know when the whitecaps and the BC Lions played out of that one stadium when BC place was being renovated.... well didn't that one have natural grass?

[GabrielHurl]

Empire was artificial turf

[Phil]

Empire was artificial turf

Largley noted as about the worst surface in the MLS outside of the skydome.

[Petor]

Well, now that MLSE gave the city a $100,000 "gift" to keep some rinks open maybe they can use that leverage to keep the Argos out?
Wishful thinking, I know, but at least they are buddy buddy for now.

[Auzzy]

Well, now that MLSE gave the city a $100,000 "gift" to keep some rinks open maybe they can use that leverage to keep the Argos out?
Wishful thinking, I know, but at least they are buddy buddy for now.

Sshhhh, or the City will have to return that money as well. They already had to return $100k to GFL... ;)

[TFC07]

Well, now that MLSE gave the city a $100,000 "gift" to keep some rinks open maybe they can use that leverage to keep the Argos out?
Wishful thinking, I know, but at least they are buddy buddy for now.

It means nothing! MLSE could easily block Argos move to BMO field if they wanted to especially since CFL isn't willing to pay $10 million to get Argos there. City of Toronto isn't going to force the issue. We already saw City of Toronto back down once when MLSE wanted to revise original BMO field renovation agreement which kick Argos out until they had money to get in.

City of Toronto don't really care about Argos that much as we make it out to be, they're just being political when comes to Argos (they're trying to make everyone happy for sake of votes). City of Toronto doesn't want to be seen as anti-Argos because that will mean someone might not vote for them. (Politics is fun, eh?).

[Pookie]

A little historical perspective for those against hand outs and government funding.

MLSE paid $10M for the franchise and contributed $8M to the stadium while receiving approx $70M in funding in corporate welfare.

Absolutely no way MLSE invests that out of their own pocket with projections of 14k in their financials.

Without a hand out, TFC doesn't exist.

Value for the Argos is about the same.

Stone throwers beware, this Home of TFC may be built of glass.

[TFC07]

A little historical perspective for those against hand outs and government funding.

MLSE paid $10M for the franchise and contributed $8M to the stadium while receiving approx $70M in funding in corporate welfare.

Absolutely no way MLSE invests that out of their own pocket with projections of 14k in their financials.

Without a hand out, TFC doesn't exist.

Value for the Argos is about the same.

Stone throwers beware, this Home of TFC may be built of glass.

No not really since MLSE has kept on invested on BMO field (grass, north stands and now expansion with roof) while Argos never contribute one cent for Sky Dome and don't look like they're willing to invest in BMO field either.

Argos' owner is having trouble selling Argos for $10 million! So no, they're not same level/value as TFC.

[Beach_Red]

A little historical perspective for those against hand outs and government funding.

MLSE paid $10M for the franchise and contributed $8M to the stadium while receiving approx $70M in funding in corporate welfare.

Absolutely no way MLSE invests that out of their own pocket with projections of 14k in their financials.

Without a hand out, TFC doesn't exist.

Value for the Argos is about the same.

Stone throwers beware, this Home of TFC may be built of glass.

It will be interesting to see what happens if MLS lose a season (or part of a season) negotiating the CBA. MLSE is going to have someone playing on that stadium...

[BuSaPuNk]

No not really since MLSE has kept on invested on BMO field (grass, north stands and now expansion with roof) while Argos never contribute one cent for Sky Dome and don't look like they're willing to invest in BMO field either.

Argos' owner is having trouble selling Argos for $10 million! So no, they're not same level/value as TFC.

Exactly.

MLSE has spent more in renovations then the actual stadium is worth. Not to mention surface changes and the North end seating.

Argos have done no such thing over the 30 plus years at the dome.

Argos can't find a buyer at $10 plus million where as TFC is already valued in the hundreds of millions.

[Petor]

It will be interesting to see what happens if MLS lose a season (or part of a season) negotiating the CBA. MLSE is going to have someone playing on that stadium...

Really? And if they do go on strike but settle in a couple of months or less, rescheduling the season will be a pain as well as the Voyageurs Cup games.
What happens to that other team?

[OgtheDim]

Without a hand out, TFC doesn't exist. .

Like every other sports team.

Value for the Argos is not the same by any means though. Investment by the Argos hasnt existed since the days of Bruce McNall - and the money for that was mythical. Before that the Argos operated like every other CFL franchise - parsimonious.

[glaze]

I'm an Argos fan, I would like to see them succeed. But it is very hard to sympathize with them when as noted their ownership in recent history, has always been looking for a handout.
TFC, and its supporters have created a great game experience at BMO Field. It isn't fair to risk damaging that for some charity case of a franchise.
If the Argos want us to be supportive, they should at least put some money forward. Not through the league, or through the government, but some actual money.
It's sad that the Argos have not had solid ownership, but what does it say about a team when noone in the country with deep pockets wants to buy the franshise with a long history, and in the largest market?
Heck, it appears that MLSE doesn't even want to own the club, and they want to have a monopoly on every franchise in this city.
Argos at BMO seems to be a done deal. But we can still remind MLSE, and the Argos, whose house it actually is.

[Cashcleaner]

A little historical perspective for those against hand outs and government funding.

MLSE paid $10M for the franchise and contributed $8M to the stadium while receiving approx $70M in funding in corporate welfare.

Absolutely no way MLSE invests that out of their own pocket with projections of 14k in their financials.

Without a hand out, TFC doesn't exist.

Value for the Argos is about the same.

Stone throwers beware, this Home of TFC may be built of glass.

People can still watch and enjoy TFC and still oppose the concept of corporate welfare for multi-billion dollar sports consortia, though. I know I would have much preferred it if MLSE just went ahead and constructed their own stadium according to their needs rather than asking for financial aid and tying themselves up to the conditions placed upon them by the city and province.

Also, I would hesitate to say that without government cash there would be no TFC. MLSE could have possibly gone about the franchise bid themselves exclusively or some other group in the city could have invested in a franchise - don't know what the chances of either of those scenarios happening are, but it wouldn't be beyond the realm of possibility. Saputo was able to build his stadium initially without any significant government subsidy, though the Quebec government did throw in cash for the upgrades when the Impact moved up into MLS.

[Mulder]

No not really since MLSE has kept on invested on BMO field (grass, north stands and now expansion with roof) while Argos never contribute one cent for Sky Dome and don't look like they're willing to invest in BMO field either.

Argos' owner is having trouble selling Argos for $10 million! So no, they're not same level/value as TFC.

If you cared to look, you'd find out that the Argos owners at the time did contribute to the construction of the Skydome.

Always seem to forgotten is that $145m of the $570m cost of the skydome was privately financed.

[OgtheDim]

If you cared to look, you'd find out that the Argos owners at the time did contribute to the construction of the Skydome.

Always seem to forgotten is that $145m of the $570m cost of the skydome was privately financed.

Not quite - the investors got in and gained exclusive advertising rights. The 3 big beer companies at the time got in so they would have a chance to put in beer later. O'Keefe paid $5 million as a beer company, not as owners of the Argos. Labatts, as the owners of the Jays also put in $5 million more, so I can see why the Dome became baseball friendly and sold Labatts at first.

In reality, the Dome was financed through strip mining future revenue streams. And the Argos put in the bare minimum.

[MightyDM]

If you cared to look, you'd find out that the Argos owners at the time did contribute to the construction of the Skydome.

Always seem to forgotten is that $145m of the $570m cost of the skydome was privately financed.

It was supposed to cost $120 million.....

[Fort York Redcoat]

Value for the Argos is about the same.

Talk about reaching...

Pook, you are really out there with this one but let me help

If one takes into account the attractive tv market of the Argos over ours and ignores the value of actually buying the franchise then, yes, in that world of give and take, in someones eyes, the value is comparable.

[Mulder]

Not quite - the investors got in and gained exclusive advertising rights. The 3 big beer companies at the time got in so they would have a chance to put in beer later. O'Keefe paid $5 million as a beer company, not as owners of the Argos. Labatts, as the owners of the Jays also put in $5 million more, so I can see why the Dome became baseball friendly and sold Labatts at first.

In reality, the Dome was financed through strip mining future revenue streams. And the Argos put in the bare minimum.

Yet O'Keefe used the Argos not playing there as leverage to get in on those advertising rights after they were originally excluded. Owner investment is owner investment no matter how you try and spin it.

[Fort York Redcoat]

Yet O'Keefe used the Argos not playing there as leverage to get in on those advertising rights after they were originally excluded. Owner investment is owner investment no matter how you try and spin it.

How "one" spins it. Og said there was investment. Another user was stating there was none. Just saying.

While you're here can you remind us how the partnership(s) with the 2 Toronto Uni's fell through again? I'd appreciate to have the info in here.

[Mulder]

How "one" spins it. Og said there was investment. Another user was stating there was none. Just saying.

While you're here can you remind us how the partnership(s) with the 2 Toronto Uni's fell through again? I'd appreciate to have the info in here.

UofT - (Varsity Stadium) - Temporary President of UofT cancelled plan due to nimby complaints.

York was cancelled because it seemed Ted Rogers and David Braley begged C&S to keep the Argos at the dome, there may have been other factors, but the way it's described it wasn't just a "free rent stay" They considered it, but untimely got bad advice from the now current Argo owner who many Argo Fans hate.

Both detailed here

http://www.thestar.com/sports/argos/2013/06/21/argos_would_have_prospered_at_varsity_exowner_says _cox.html

[Fort York Redcoat]

UofT - (Varsity Stadium) - Temporary President of UofT cancelled plan due to nimby complaints.

York was cancelled because it seemed Ted Rogers and David Braley begged C&S to keep the Argos at the dome, there may have been other factors, but the way it's described it wasn't just a "free rent stay" They considered it, but untimely got bad advice from the now current Argo owner who many Argo Fans hate.

Both detailed here

http://www.thestar.com/sports/argos/2013/06/21/argos_would_have_prospered_at_varsity_exowner_says _cox.html


Cheers. That clarifies things greatly.

Is Braley still ok with owning the Lions or does he want out of both B.C. and Toronto ownership?

[Mulder]

Cheers. That clarifies things greatly.

Is Braley still ok with owning the Lions or does he want out of both B.C. and Toronto ownership?

Said he wants to sell them by the time he's 75. He turns 74 this May.

[Fort York Redcoat]

Said he wants to sell them by the time he's 75. He turns 74 this May.

Thanks again.

[sully]

John Tory on cp24 tonight. You can tweet questions to #askthemayorcp24

[CanadaLFC]

Just a thought. Are there any ideas of doing an online petition for those that are whole-heartedly against this? Do you think that might be a good idea?

[Fort York Redcoat]

Just a thought. Are there any ideas of doing an online petition for those that are whole-heartedly against this? Do you think that might be a good idea?

I don't know who is running this but it does reference a rednation online article. Could be one of those boys.

http://www.noargosatbmo.ca/content/keep-the-argos-out/

[Mark TFC]

I don't know who is running this but it does reference a rednation online article. Could be one of those boys.

http://www.noargosatbmo.ca/content/keep-the-argos-out/

Whoa... a whopping 105 signatures!

[DeRo Fan #1]

I really hope they find somewhere else.
MLSE does all this work for TFC and BMO Field, the Argos just can't barge in here.

[Fort York Redcoat]

Whoa... a whopping 105 signatures!

Well talk will be getting more frequent about it and I shared this one since it was already started. So be it.

[FRANKIE65]

Whoa... a whopping 105 signatures!


Well talk will be getting more frequent about it and I shared this one since it was already started. So be it.

Make that 106!!!!!!!!!!!! Shared it on FB, too.

[TFC07]

Guys, petition and sending emails to John Tory and co is useless (they don't have anymore money to invest into BMO field).

If you want to voice your opinion, then email MLSE since they're ones who have money to make it happen especially since Argos/CFL isn't willing to pay $10 million (or $20 million if provincial government doesn't pitch in).

[TFC07]

I really hope they find somewhere else.
MLSE does all this work for TFC and BMO Field, the Argos just can't barge in here.

MLSE exactly isn't innocent on this issue either. They're ones who bought up this issue with their upgrades! If I was in their shoes, I would sit back and let City pay for expenses and upgrades needed to fix BMO field (it already needed an upgrade before MLSE decided to expand to 30K since it has some maintenance issues due to BMO field being built cheaply. It would have cost city around $10-15 million to make necessary upgrades to keep BMO field running).

[Beach_Red]

MLSE exactly isn't innocent on this issue either. They're ones who bought up this issue with their upgrades! If I was in their shoes, I would sit back and let City pay for expenses and upgrades needed to fix BMO field (it already needed an upgrade before MLSE decided to expand to 30K since it has some maintenance issues due to BMO field being built cheaply. It would have cost city around $10-15 million to make necessary upgrades to keep BMO field running).

MLSE are opportunists, they have no love for any particular sport. Right now MLS is the best investment but who knows, that could change. They're never going to rule out anything completely.

[TFC07]

MLSE are opportunists, they have no love for any particular sport. Right now MLS is the best investment but who knows, that could change. They're never going to rule out anything completely.

Exactly.

MLSE could easily stop this Argo move if they wanted to (they sort of have in the past with north stand and amount of concrete they used on it which it make it hard and expensive to knock down north stand to make room for CFL field).

MLSE already made their ROI from TFC (they only paid $10 million to get into MLS and now TFC is worth north of $100 million).

[Fort York Redcoat]

Exactly.

MLSE could easily stop this Argo move if they wanted to (they sort of have in the past with north stand and amount of concrete they used on it which it make it hard and expensive to knock down north stand to make room for CFL field).

MLSE already made their ROI from TFC (they only paid $10 million to get into MLS and now TFC is worth north of $100 million).

Just to clarify, nothing must be done in the north. It can remain as is but the south can come down and those retractable seats put in. I can only put my faith in the board room pissing match preventing this from happening.

[Cashcleaner]

MLSE exactly isn't innocent on this issue either. They're ones who bought up this issue with their upgrades! If I was in their shoes, I would sit back and let City pay for expenses and upgrades needed to fix BMO field (it already needed an upgrade before MLSE decided to expand to 30K since it has some maintenance issues due to BMO field being built cheaply. It would have cost city around $10-15 million to make necessary upgrades to keep BMO field running).

Exactly. I've never believed the line that guys like Paul Beirne loved to spin about how they'd love nothing more than to keep BMO Field soccer-specific. If the company can find more tenants that will allow them to squeeze more capital out of their investment, they're not very likely to say no. It's all about maximizing the revenue they could get from the facility. Argos to BMO Field makes quite a bit of financial sense to almost all parties involved except TFC and it's fans specifically.

[Shakes McQueen]

Exactly. I've never believed the line that guys like Paul Beirne loved to spin about how they'd love nothing more than to keep BMO Field soccer-specific. If the company can find more tenants that will allow them to squeeze more capital out of their investment, they're not very likely to say no. It's all about maximizing the revenue they could get from the facility. Argos to BMO Field makes quite a bit of financial sense to almost all parties involved except TFC and it's fans specifically.

I think ultimately if the City wants this done, then MLSE can't do too much about it. However, I've seen little evidence that the City is leaning THAT hard on them, and plenty of evidence that MLSE/Leiweke WANT the Argos to come to BMO, because they're convinced they can have their good playing surface cake, and eat it too. They want BMO Field to become a hub for all kinds of sports and events, because obviously it makes them more money.

Of course, it has also been made abundantly clear to Leiweke that the fans don't want this move, and it's clear that he's gotten that message, because he's commented about the sentiment publicly. At this point, what can you do? You either walk away from the team (which I think would be incredibly premature, to say the least), or b) make noise so they do everything possible to try and preserve the soccer experience for the fans and team alike, and remain cautiously hopeful that they will take that to heart.

My hope is that these talks fall through because no one wants to put up the money necessary to do the retrofitting for the Argos, and they go somewhere else.

[Hamilton_Red]

Surely this is a done deal. There is no way the stadium modifications were done for #TFC - no way to justify this with the recent season's attendance problems.

[Shakes McQueen]

Surely this is a done deal. There is no way the stadium modifications were done for #TFC - no way to justify this with the recent season's attendance problems.

By the same token you could say there's no justification for potentially further alienating your fanbase - especially when it's to accommodate a team you don't even own.

[Beach_Red]

By the same token you could say there's no justification for potentially further alienating your fanbase - especially when it's to accommodate a team you don't even own.

That's question, isn't it. Would the revenue from Argos games be enough to make up what might be lost in TFC revenues?

[Shakes McQueen]

That's question, isn't it. Would the revenue from Argos games be enough to make up what might be lost in TFC revenues?

MLS soccer has a billion times the growth potential, even if MLSE decided in a year or two to buy the Argos outright. If they look at TFC as a long-term investment, and it's an either/or proposition, then I don't see any way the revenue from the Argos remotely makes up for it.

Who knows what MLS franchise values could conceivably be in 20 years.

[Cashcleaner]

I think ultimately if the City wants this done, then MLSE can't do too much about it. However, I've seen little evidence that the City is leaning THAT hard on them, and plenty of evidence that MLSE/Leiweke WANT the Argos to come to BMO, because they're convinced they can have their good playing surface cake, and eat it too. They want BMO Field to become a hub for all kinds of sports and events, because obviously it makes them more money.

Of course, it has also been made abundantly clear to Leiweke that the fans don't want this move, and it's clear that he's gotten that message, because he's commented about the sentiment publicly. At this point, what can you do? You either walk away from the team (which I think would be incredibly premature, to say the least), or b) make noise so they do everything possible to try and preserve the soccer experience for the fans and team alike, and remain cautiously hopeful that they will take that to heart.

My hope is that these talks fall through because no one wants to put up the money necessary to do the retrofitting for the Argos, and they go somewhere else.

Yep, I'd agree with all that. And like you mentioned, the ball isn't really in one particular court - both MLSE and the City have a say when it comes to usage of the facility. And you're right about the lack of pressure from the city to put this plan in motion, although council may just figure it has bigger fish to fry now with the new mayor and his new platform focused at transit and city infrastructure.

[Shakes McQueen]

Yep, I'd agree with all that. And like you mentioned, the ball isn't really in one particular court - both MLSE and the City have a say when it comes to usage of the facility. And you're right about the lack of pressure from the city to put this plan in motion, although council may just figure it has bigger fish to fry now with the new mayor and his new platform focused at transit and city infrastructure.

It's possible that, privately, councilors are putting pressure on MLSE to accommodate the Argos - but there certainly hasn't been any public evidence of this. On the other hand, there was lots of talk from people Leiweke, about the various kinds of events they'd like to see at BMO Field.

I'd say there's still likely to be serious hurdles to the Argos coming to BMO - for starters, I wouldn't be shocked if they have to come up with the money for the renovations to the stands to accommodate the CFL field. Considering Braley (over-) values his entire team at around $10 million, there's no chance he puts up that cash. Which leaves the CFL itself. And "garnishing" lost revenues for teams who are still waiting for their new stadium to be finished (an example previously offered by someone), is not even close to the same as the CFL putting up money to get one of their teams a new home.

And if the money is put up as a loan of sorts to the Argos, that's only going to make buying the team that much less appealing. I'll go on the record as saying if they don't end up in BMO, the Argos probably end up playing in the outskirts of Toronto. The bottom line is that they just aren't a lucrative property. Maybe Bell buys them, just to preserve the value of their CFL television rights.

[Auzzy]

I think there was public evidence of the Exhibition Place board (an agency of the City) and specifically Mark Grimes wanting the Argos at BMO Field. For them, it's hoping to get more income in, and building their fiefdom -- plus Grimes is generally a big gridiron booster. Of course also the mayor at the time, his name has slipped my mind. :D Now Tory is mayor, former CFL commissioner, I'm sure he's also supporting it. There hasn't been any other decision since the election, so that remains the Exhibition's official position, who represent the city in this matter. Mark Grimes was re-elected as councillor, but I don't know if he's still running the Ex board.

I agree with Shakes that financially it's not a sure thing.

[greatwhitenorf]

UofT - (Varsity Stadium) - Temporary President of UofT cancelled plan due to nimby complaints.

York was cancelled because it seemed Ted Rogers and David Braley begged C&S to keep the Argos at the dome, there may have been other factors, but the way it's described it wasn't just a "free rent stay" They considered it, but untimely got bad advice from the now current Argo owner who many Argo Fans hate.

Both detailed here

http://www.thestar.com/sports/argos/2013/06/21/argos_would_have_prospered_at_varsity_exowner_says _cox.html

It's a little hard to take anything Cynamon and Sokolowski say seriously. Especially to Damien Cox, Hamilton boy,Ti-Cat fan and hardly soccer's best friend.

First of all, anything coming out of the collective mouth of C & S was put there by David Braley. He gave them half of the money - $1 mil of a feeble $2 million - to buy ownership of the Argos, at that time being run by the league after their second bankruptcy. Braley also underwrote half of the losses incurred annually during the C & S tenure. He has effectively been owner of the Argos since 2003, but the league was too embarrassed to admit this until they had no choice when C & S tossed what was left of their keys on the table.

Cox is an ardent Ti-Cats fan. The one thing the Ti-Cats need more than anything - well, other than a bank statement in anything but red ink - is a healthy rivalry with the Argos. That healthiness extends to the Argos financial state. If they flounder, the Ti-Cats suffer. So Cox is more than willing to lend his profile to the cause.

I can't stand Damien Cox. He's a poseur of the first order. He shows up on Sportsnet junior telecasts or on NHL draft spouting an alleged expertise about junior hockey players like he's watching them closely. What a joke. There's a running gag amongst junior hockey fans about Damien Cox sightings in OHL arenas. Of course, there all false alarms. The man never attends games in person unless it's the Memorial Cup where the studio is set up, yet he's propped up as an expert.

So when he takes dick-tation at the feet of David Braley's CFL sock puppets, it breeds nothing but cynicism and skepticism. It's all agenda driven drivel and none of it is good for MLS.

[greatwhitenorf]

Surely this is a done deal. There is no way the stadium modifications were done for #TFC - no way to justify this with the recent season's attendance problems.

The Leafs will play as many outdoor games as the NHL permits them to stage. And they will stage them annually because it's good for the industry.

They will make more money from the first outdoor event than they'll make from many seasons of Argos rentals. It won't just be one game. It will be a whole week of events and nostalgia tied into it. The Marlies and OHL and alumni will play preliminary games. The whole Ex grounds area will be turned into a giant hockey-themed carnival. There'll be merchandise out the ying-yang and money will flow like shit through a goose.

The Argos are just a troublesome, irritating footnote that dolts like Mark Grimes are trying to push onto MLSE's lap.

The city? All they really care about is facilitating the staging of good things that reflect well on Toronto and, above all, make money. Factor in the long-term ability of TFC and soccer events in general to make money and the only element in the stadium equation that isn't a dead-nuts lock to make money is the Argos. But they are capable of fucking up things on the soccer side.

They're aptly called The Boat Men and as boat owners well know, a boat is a hole in a lake you pour money into.

[king10]

The Leafs will play as many outdoor games as the NHL permits them to stage. And they will stage them annually because it's good for the industry.

They will make more money from the first outdoor event than they'll make from many seasons of Argos rentals. It won't just be one game. It will be a whole week of events and nostalgia tied into it. The Marlies and OHL and alumni will play preliminary games. The whole Ex grounds area will be turned into a giant hockey-themed carnival. There'll be merchandise out the ying-yang and money will flow like shit through a goose.

The Argos are just a troublesome, irritating footnote that dolts like Mark Grimes are trying to push onto MLSE's lap.

The city? All they really care about is facilitating the staging of good things that reflect well on Toronto and, above all, make money. Factor in the long-term ability of TFC and soccer events in general to make money and the only element in the stadium equation that isn't a dead-nuts lock to make money is the Argos. But they are capable of fucking up things on the soccer side.

They're aptly called The Boat Men and as boat owners well know, a boat is a hole in a lake you pour money into.

The 2017 outdoor game won't even be held at BMO....

http://www.thehockeynews.com/blog/toronto-to-get-all-star-game-and-outdoor-game-in-2017-source/

The outdoor game involving the Leafs will apparently be held at Rogers Centre with the roof open and not at the outdoor BMO Field, the source said.

Also you say the city is concerned about facilitating and staging good things that reflect well on Toronto. A CFL (canada's only national league) franchise folding doesn't really reflect well on Toronto(Canada's largest city).

[TFC07]

http://www.thehockeynews.com/blog/toronto-to-get-all-star-game-and-outdoor-game-in-2017-source/

The outdoor game involving the Leafs will apparently be held at Rogers Centre with the roof open and not at the outdoor BMO Field, the source said.

Problem with that line is that Rogers Centre's roof can't be open during winter time. However, I agree it will make more sense to host Leafs outdoor game at Rogers Centre while host AHL and old farts pickup hockey game at BMO field.

[king10]

Problem with that line is that Rogers Centre's roof can't be open during winter time. However, I agree it will make more sense to host Leafs outdoor game at Rogers Centre while host AHL and old farts pickup hockey game at BMO field.

It's not that the roof can't be opened. It's that they seal it shut for the winter. They can obviously remove the snow and ice and "unseal" it for this winter event. Of course for a cost, which can probably be recuperated from the outdoor event.

Roof literally only needs to be opened for 3 hours. Im sure Rogers being part owners of MLSE will see how much revenue this event could make and would put in the extra funds to open the roof.

EDIT: It says the roof can't be opened or closed if temperature fluctuate above and below 10 degrees celcius. But what if they were constantly below? Im not really sure.

http://www.thestar.com/sports/baseball/2012/04/19/blue_jays_crack_open_rogers_centre_roof_for_first_ time_this_season.html

The dome is sealed through the winter, and the roof testing can’t begin until all snow and ice have melted. Given this year’s mild winter, testing was able to occur a little earlier than usual.
Temperatures below 10 C put the opening and closing of the roof at risk, said Stephen Brooks, Blue Jays Senior Vice-president, who added that the metal rails on which the roof moves expand and contract with the weather.
“At around 10 degrees, if we were to open the roof, and the temperature then dropped, we risk not being able to close it,” Brooks said, adding that the system shuts down if the roof gets out of alignment by a couple centimetres. “Because the stadium is without drainage, a roof that is shut down can be problematic if it were to rain.”

So really who knows whats going on in 2017 until its officially announced. Maybe that source has inside info. Or maybe it'll be a closed roof like in Vancouver.

[Brooker]

“There are some big hurdles to overcome and deal with,” he said without providing specifics. “But there’s never a hurdle that can’t be overcome.“It’s just a question of if you can get over it or not.”


Huh?

[ensco]

I think they could easily solve the Skydome roof issue with a million bucks - they could leave it open all winter, and use some sort of temporary bubble protection that can be removed for the game.

Could be a lot of burst pipes though if they get unlucky (remember when that happened at the BMO opener one year?)

[Phil]

I think they could easily solve the Skydome roof issue with a million bucks - they could leave it open all winter, and use some sort of temporary bubble protection that can be removed for the game.

Could be a lot of burst pipes though if they get unlucky (remember when that happened at the BMO opener one year?)

It would take more than a million....all the winter events that the skydome can host - car show, motocross, disney on ice shows, spring time fairs - all add up as moneymakers for them no?

[Areathrasher]

Surely if there was some way the dome could be open during winter, it would have been done already?

[TFC07]

The only way to get it done is rip off roof (which they might have to do anyway if they end up with grass) and winterized Rogers Centre (replacing current pipes etc that can handle the cold).

[Rudi]

Surely this is a done deal. There is no way the stadium modifications were done for #TFC - no way to justify this with the recent season's attendance problems.
Except the stadium still can't accommodate the Argos with the current modifications. It would need the final phase.

[Petor]

Except the stadium still can't accommodate the Argos with the current modifications. It would need the final phase.

Yup, so we are looking at 2017 at the earliest for the Argos unless the CFL agrees to let them play on a smaller field until phase 3 is done.
A lot can happen between now and then.

[ensco]

It would take more than a million....all the winter events that the skydome can host - car show, motocross, disney on ice shows, spring time fairs - all add up as moneymakers for them no?

It's Disney on Ice, 2-3 monster truck things ... and that's about it.

I have no idea what they make on those.

You can see it all here.

http://events.rogerscentre.com/

[Shakes McQueen]

Also you say the city is concerned about facilitating and staging good things that reflect well on Toronto. A CFL (canada's only national league) franchise folding doesn't really reflect well on Toronto(Canada's largest city).

They aren't going to save an economically failing football team in a second-tier football league, because of concerns about it "reflecting badly" on the city. That doesn't even make sense, because the team is a private entity, and playing in a half empty stadium already looks plenty bad.

And who would it reflect poorly towards? Other Torontonians? The same people currently not bothering to attend Argos games? Does the rest of the world care about our CFL team? You don't financially prop things up, simply because businesses failing might "look bad" to... someone.

I also have no warm fuzzies about the fact that the CFL is "Canada's only national league", or that the Argos are North America's oldest pro sports team. Both make interesting Trivial Pursuit questions, but not much else.

[Pookie]

It's possible that, privately, councilors are putting pressure on MLSE to accommodate the Argos - but there certainly hasn't been any public evidence of this. On the other hand, there was lots of talk from people Leiweke, about the various kinds of events they'd like to see at BMO Field.

I'd say there's still likely to be serious hurdles to the Argos coming to BMO - for starters, I wouldn't be shocked if they have to come up with the money for the renovations to the stands to accommodate the CFL field. Considering Braley (over-) values his entire team at around $10 million, there's no chance he puts up that cash. Which leaves the CFL itself. And "garnishing" lost revenues for teams who are still waiting for their new stadium to be finished (an example previously offered by someone), is not even close to the same as the CFL putting up money to get one of their teams a new home.

And if the money is put up as a loan of sorts to the Argos, that's only going to make buying the team that much less appealing. I'll go on the record as saying if they don't end up in BMO, the Argos probably end up playing in the outskirts of Toronto. The bottom line is that they just aren't a lucrative property. Maybe Bell buys them, just to preserve the value of their CFL television rights.

The $10M could come in a lot of ways.

A cheque is one. But instead of a cheque, they could offer a shiny new Grey Cup game that also generates approx $10m.

It isn't unheard of. In fact, the FIFA U20 to BMO probably mitigated a lot of the investment MLSE made at the beginning.

[Shakes McQueen]

The $10M could come in a lot of ways.

A cheque is one. But instead of a cheque, they could offer a shiny new Grey Cup game that also generates approx $10m.

It isn't unheard of. In fact, the FIFA U20 to BMO probably mitigated a lot of the investment MLSE made at the beginning.

Did the last Grey Cup in Toronto generate $10 million in profit for the Argos?

[Fort York Redcoat]

Did the last Grey Cup in Toronto generate $10 million in profit for the Argos?

When have those numbers ever been trustworthy, though? It's a he said/she said that sounds as accurate as reported attendance numbers.:rolleyes:

[OgtheDim]

Teams view for those Grey Cups and are ticked that Braley has a deal with 3 more coming up in the next 10 years that he can use in either Vancouver or Toronto.

Its a money spinner.

[Fort York Redcoat]

The $10M could come in a lot of ways.

A cheque is one. But instead of a cheque, they could offer a shiny new Grey Cup game that also generates approx $10m.

It isn't unheard of. In fact, the FIFA U20 to BMO probably mitigated a lot of the investment MLSE made at the beginning.

Are we saying that the Grey Cup is such a rare prize that it would be a decider here with the BMO expansion situation?

As much respect that I have for the institution of the league Toronto has hosted Cups when it should've gone elsewhere and ignored the cups for years at a time. The only difference now would be one new venue for the event and the feel being more like Hamilton than Vancouver.

I'm sure people would find it fun, kitch, but it seems pretty funny to have the event minutes away from a place that doesn't need to be expanded to look ramshackle.

[Pookie]

Did the last Grey Cup in Toronto generate $10 million in profit for the Argos?

Actually... Yes

"Toronto Argos owner and Canadian senator David Braley earned as much as $10 million in profit as the host of the 100th Grey Cup."

http://m.thestar.com/#/article/sports/2012/11/27/grey_cup_argonauts_owner_david_braley_set_for_up_t o_10_million_in_profits_sources.html

[cdnorman]

Problem with that line is that Rogers Centre's roof can't be open during winter time. However, I agree it will make more sense to host Leafs outdoor game at Rogers Centre while host AHL and old farts pickup hockey game at BMO field.

I find it hard to believe they'd go through all the effort to put this at the dome. Part of the appeal of these outdoor games is the outdoor feel, no domed-in stadium will provide that.

[Fort York Redcoat]

Actually... Yes

"Toronto Argos owner and Canadian senator David Braley earned as much as $10 million in profit as the host of the 100th Grey Cup."

http://m.thestar.com/#/article/sports/2012/11/27/grey_cup_argonauts_owner_david_braley_set_for_up_t o_10_million_in_profits_sources.html

"two people familiar with the event told the Star."

Why wouldn't they name those people and their stations?? Not a conspiracy really, I'm just pointing out that one can find someone to say anything...

[TFC07]

Actually... Yes

"Toronto Argos owner and Canadian senator David Braley earned as much as $10 million in profit as the host of the 100th Grey Cup."

http://m.thestar.com/#/article/sports/2012/11/27/grey_cup_argonauts_owner_david_braley_set_for_up_t o_10_million_in_profits_sources.html

Don't forget that taxpayers give $10 million to CFL for 100th Grey Cup event.

[TFC07]

I find it hard to believe they'd go through all the effort to put this at the dome. Part of the appeal of these outdoor games is the outdoor feel, no domed-in stadium will provide that.

True, but MLSE is looking to make a huge profit which they can at bigger stadium like Rogers Centre than BMO field. Also, it isn't uncommon to host "outdoor" game in domed stadium (example: Vancouver hosting it at BC place)

[Fort York Redcoat]

True, but MLSE is looking to make a huge profit which they can at bigger stadium like Rogers Centre than BMO field. Also, it isn't uncommon to host "outdoor" game in domed stadium (example: Vancouver hosting it at BC place)

http://www.infrasave.com/wp-content/gallery/bc-place/2012-09-08-BC-Lions-Football-0988-MKH.jpg


bit different, no? The Dome is either open or closed.

[greatwhitenorf]

The 2017 outdoor game won't even be held at BMO....

http://www.thehockeynews.com/blog/toronto-to-get-all-star-game-and-outdoor-game-in-2017-source/

The outdoor game involving the Leafs will apparently be held at Rogers Centre with the roof open and not at the outdoor BMO Field, the source said.

Also you say the city is concerned about facilitating and staging good things that reflect well on Toronto. A CFL (canada's only national league) franchise folding doesn't really reflect well on Toronto(Canada's largest city).

The dome talk might be true. It might also be MLSE taking a fall-back position in case BMO Field expansion hits a glitch.

The folding of the Argonauts isn't a reflection on the city of Toronto. Certainly not the government of the city, which is what I alluded to in the post you quote.

The folding of the Argonauts would be a reflection of the withering interest in the CFL by the sports fans of Toronto and environs. It would also be a reflection on the league's lack of wit and vision that they keep declaring how important the market is yet have not come up with a way to house the Argos in a venue that makes Canadian football a priority in order to properly promote and cultivate the sport in such a vital location.

Two bankruptcies and David Braley's philanthropic involvement as de facto team owner since 2003 suggest that that reflection has been there for decades. CFL fans are either unable or unwilling to look at it.

[Beach_Red]

^ Maybe now that the NFL-to-Toronto talk has stopped we'll some actual planning by the CFL in Toronto.

[greatwhitenorf]

True, but MLSE is looking to make a huge profit which they can at bigger stadium like Rogers Centre than BMO field. Also, it isn't uncommon to host "outdoor" game in domed stadium (example: Vancouver hosting it at BC place)

No doubt Rogers would love to see an outdoor game in the baseball stadium they own. That's win-win squared. For maximum value, they'd have to have the Habs in as opponents.

After that, people will learn that sitting three or four or five, even ten times further away from the action as they would at the ACC is nothing to get excited about and it would be a tougher sell. They'd also want to stage outdoor games against a number of other worthy rivals like Buffalo, Detroit, Ottawa.

So, by shifting subsequent games to BMO Field, they'll be able to market a fresher, more intimate experience because fans would only be two or three or four times as far away. They'd also have the CNE grounds to expand game-related events to and by the time the second or later games are arranged, the roof is on at BMO and all the logistics there are well in hand.

[greatwhitenorf]

The NFL-to-Toronto talking might have stopped.

Don't assume the NFL-to-Toronto thinking hasn't.

If MLSE take over the Argos, that absolves the NFL of any guilt should an NFL-to-Toronto opportunity arise.

[Beach_Red]

^ I didn't realize there was any ownership looking into it. Without corporate ownership - which the NFL doesn't allow - and no stadium I didn't think there was anyone interested in spending the money it would take to bring a team to Toronto.

[Blizzard]

I agree, but that is pure plastic.

We are talking about the hybrid stuff, so the ground can get torn up when lets say a 300 lb dude is digging in for tackles. The elements can be at play along with the stress on the surface. If lets say the Argos play on a sloppy weather weekend, is the pitch going to be ready for a CCL game on the following Wednesday night?

I'm late to this but Phil is right. The grass may end up looking fine but it may also be hiding the lack of smoothness of the earth under the grass.

This used to be the case regularly when the Blizzard were sharing Varsity with the U of T Blues way back when. It also used to be the case in Edmonton when the CMNT was playing during the CFL season. Even if they'd managed to clean up the lines and keep the grass healthy, we'd later hear about how awful the footing was between the hash marks and the bad bounces were obvious to all of us.

In regards to scheduling of CCL, ya, we could be screwed if we can't get the matches schedule for the week after a TFC match ..... or, as often they are back to back/week to week, we might have to play the first or second match away depending on how the the schedule comes to together.

Whatever happens, it will be a challenge for TFC management. I just hope we can put this off to the 2018 season (at the earliest). I also wish MLSE hadn't put so much money into the current stadium so that it would be easier to walk away to a new facility if the Argos thing turns out to be a disaster. They're not going to walk away from BMO anytime soon after this investment.

[Fort York Redcoat]

The NFL-to-Toronto talking might have stopped.

Don't assume the NFL-to-Toronto thinking hasn't.

If MLSE take over the Argos, that absolves the NFL of any guilt should an NFL-to-Toronto opportunity arise.


^ I didn't realize there was any ownership looking into it. Without corporate ownership - which the NFL doesn't allow - and no stadium I didn't think there was anyone interested in spending the money it would take to bring a team to Toronto.


I think we're seeing gridiron prioritizing. Why think about NFL to Toronto when the homeless Argos question has to come first?

Once that's done I'll start the "NFL team to expanded BMO" threadg:D

[Initial B]

I'm late to this but Phil is right. The grass may end up looking fine but it may also be hiding the lack of smoothness of the earth under the grass.
In that case, they'll probably use a water drum like I use on my lawn to flatten it out after every CFL game. I think professional groundskeepers will know how to remove any lumpiness from the pitch.

[Blizzard]

In that case, they'll probably use a water drum like I use on my lawn to flatten it out after every CFL game. I think professional groundskeepers will know how to remove any lumpiness from the pitch.

As a last resort, they could do that. It's terrible for the health of the field though. I suppose that as long as they aerate it immediately afterwards, it could be ok. Not sure how heavy they can go considering all the builg in drainage pipes that exist though.

[MightyDM]

In that case, they'll probably use a water drum like I use on my lawn to flatten it out after every CFL game. I think professional groundskeepers will know how to remove any lumpiness from the pitch.

They didn't seem to know how at Wembley. It's a very real concern. It isn't that long ago that we had trouble recruiting DP's because of our turf. A shared use field adds back that barrier. Imagine if someone got hurt! Is a Giovenco going to be so ready to come here? It will certainly be a barrier.

[Justin10000]

It's amazing MLSE will prioritize 8 CFL games over 18 TFC games.

[Mulder]

It's amazing MLSE will prioritize 8 CFL games over 18 TFC games.

10 actually. (11 including playoffs)