Is this the catalyst for change?

[Toronto_Bhoy]

Back in the winter of 2000 Celtic were knocked out of the Scottish Cup by First division part-timers Inverness Caley Thistle 3-1 at Celtic Park. The headlines in Glasgow sang their praise…“Super Caley Go Ballistic, Celtic Are Atrocious”!

For Bhoybobby, Canadian_Bhoy and I, it was one of the darkest moments in recent Celtic history but that loss was the catalyst for a decade of domination in the SPL. The “Dream Team” of John Barnes and Kenny Dalglish were sacked and Celtic hired Martin O’Neill, who restored pride and trophies to Parkhead.

Was Tuesday nights loss a blessing in disguise? Is this the catalyst for change?

[Rawkus_420]

we need a DP. hahaha bottom line, we cant finish, doesnt matter what coach you have, if you cant finish, we could have arsene wneger as a manager and it wouldnt matter...maybe our tactics would be a bit better, which may result in a few more goals, but bottom line is we're missing the quality

[Parkdale]

I like the positive slant to this thread.

There will be positives coming, but in what shape? That's hard to say.
Probably a few players who can score will be enough of a change,
just because I don't see anything really big in the near future (like real grass)

[Ratven]

Its a catalyst for change when more than a couple hundred supporters care, it may be overly bleak of me, but I don't think enough people care to push for change. And management almost certainly doesn't care.

[NateDoGG]

since MJ and JC are so content on gettin us a european striker, they should prob go out there and get him pretty damn soon.... MLSE can spend the dp money, do it, do it now!!!

[jabbronies]

no....why would you make major changes to a team that has only really played about 15 games together and a coach who has only been around for a half season and a technical director who's only been in the position for about the same amount of time?

I agree they've been playing like shit as of late, but you have to look at the whole picture here. This isn't something that has plagued this team for years on end. This is still a new team, who are only now solidifying the team structure and even then, most of the guys have been away on Internation leave or injury so they really haven't had that much time to gel together.

I don't think we should be calling for heads until at least late August early September when we know were we actually stand in terms of playoffs.

We are 1 win out of 3rd place. and if the season ended today, wouldn't we be in the playoffs??? is it top 4 or top 6 team???

[Gobi]

"Super Caley Go Ballistic, Celtic Are Atrocious”!


I just have to say that's pure genius.



But on topic, I hope you're right. I don't see anything major happening suddenly, though. It will be small steps, one at a time, if anything.

[Jimmy The Saint]

A buddy of mine has a great classification system for sports players:

1. Useless
2. Warm Body
3. Shows up and Plays to the bitter end

we have some #2s, very few #3s, and whole lot of #1s

We need some more #3s.

[Jimmy The Saint]

^^ had to fix.

[Jimmy The Saint]

^^ yeah I fixed it - sorry. Still pissed off from yesterday.

[Ratven]

A buddy of mine has a great classification system for sports players:

1. Useless
2. Warm Body
3. Shows up and Plays to the bitter end

we have some #2s, very few #3s, and whole lot of #1s

We need some more #3s.

I think you have that backwards, we definitely do NOT need more #1s :)

[Tintin]

no....why would you make major changes to a team that has only really played about 15 games together and a coach who has only been around for a half season and a technical director who's only been in the position for about the same amount of time?

I agree they've been playing like shit as of late, but you have to look at the whole picture here. This isn't something that has plagued this team for years on end. This is still a new team, who are only now solidifying the team structure and even then, most of the guys have been away on Internation leave or injury so they really haven't had that much time to gel together.

I don't think we should be calling for heads until at least late August early September when we know were we actually stand in terms of playoffs.

We are 1 win out of 3rd place. and if the season ended today, wouldn't we be in the playoffs??? is it top 4 or top 6 team???



Top 4 in each division plus the nexte 2 teams with most points regardless division. So yes we would be in today.

[Toronto_Bhoy]

We are 1 win out of 3rd place. and if the season ended today, wouldn't we be in the playoffs??? is it top 4 or top 6 team???

Is the cup half empty or half full?

We are one point from falling out of a playoff position. The 5 teams behind us are a win away from leap frogging us and dropping us to second from the bottom.

There are two questions here:

Is Mo the man to move this club forward or is it time to head in another direction?

[coisty1966]

Back in the winter of 2000 Celtic were knocked out of the Scottish Cup by First division part-timers Inverness Caley Thistle 3-1 at Celtic Park. The headlines in Glasgow sang their praise…“Super Caley Go Ballistic, Celtic Are Atrocious”!

For Bhoybobby, Canadian_Bhoy and I, it was one of the darkest moments in recent Celtic history but that loss was the catalyst for a decade of domination in the SPL. The “Dream Team” of John Barnes and Kenny Dalglish were sacked and Celtic hired Martin O’Neill, who restored pride and trophies to Parkhead.

Was Tuesday nights loss a blessing in disguise? Is this the catalyst for change?

ahhhh....i remember it well! enjoyed the hell out of it and if i have to be honest, was very worried for Rangers when o'neill was signed by you lot...hate the little bugger but knew what he was capable of and he showed it by winning trophies.....as much as last night hurt i cant see bailing on this team.....gotta stay positive

[Cambridge_Red]

Just watched Carvers interview, and let me say hes really calling out either Mo or upper management. I feel for the guy we're playing some good football, but how is a 16 year old supposed to get the job done. It's asking way too much.. Hopefully something changes because the city of Toronto is going to have to accept losing to Quebec for yet another year, cause lord knows our winter team isn't going to do shit........

[jabbronies]

Is the cup half empty or half full?

We are one point from falling out of a playoff position. The 5 teams behind us are a win away from leap frogging us and dropping us to second from the bottom.

There are two questions here:

Is Mo the man to move this club forward or is it time to head in another direction?

I think as supporters, the cup should still be half full for us - we're not out of contention. We're still in this.

As for the question, is mo the man? well. Again, it's too early to start chopping heads IMO. It's not too late to sign a striker.
It sounds like people are already throwing in the towel by saying "axe this guy, axe that guy". If we start axing people now, doesn't that mean we're ready to start over again because we've failed in this attempt?

[Toronto_Bhoy]

Just watched Carvers interview, and let me say hes really calling out either Mo or upper management.

When I saw it that's exactly what I thought!

[jabbronies]

The lose to Montreal was devestating, however, was it skill that killed us or was it passion? Was it formation that hurt us or was it the lack of quality the players showed last night - this whole tourny.

We controlled the ball for 80% of the game, we just couldn't finish. ya they scored 1 goal against us, but really...how many games will a team win that can only score 1 goal a game? And is this the Defense fault they let in 1 goal, or is it the forwards fault for turning over the ball every chance they get?

We need a striker. We tried to get huckerby and he said no, we tried to get gomes and he said no, we tried to get others and they were too high priced. What should Mo do??? should he just sign a striker at all costs?? is Sukar worth 10M a year? should we just give whomever whatever money they want and hope they come through??

Strikers are a dime a dozen and the good ones already have teams that have the $$$ to hold on to them; The ones that are available and are good are either over-aged or not playing well right now. Do we want that? really do we want another Cunningham?

[giambac]

Back in the winter of 2000 Celtic were knocked out of the Scottish Cup by First division part-timers Inverness Caley Thistle 3-1 at Celtic Park. The headlines in Glasgow sang their praise…“Super Caley Go Ballistic, Celtic Are Atrocious”!

For Bhoybobby, Canadian_Bhoy and I, it was one of the darkest moments in recent Celtic history but that loss was the catalyst for a decade of domination in the SPL. The “Dream Team” of John Barnes and Kenny Dalglish were sacked and Celtic hired Martin O’Neill, who restored pride and trophies to Parkhead.

Was Tuesday nights loss a blessing in disguise? Is this the catalyst for change?


1)Start with FIRING CARVER
2) Bring in a striker

Note: I said fire Carver before you bring in a striker. IF you bring in the striker first, Carver will probaly sit him on the bench or do something to piss him off or ruin his confidence.

We can't have Carver making anymore personnel/ player decisons

If you want him to maintain a role on the team let him take care of the post game buffet table.

[trane]

I am in the midle of this they have to shape up, but I also think that we need some stability for proper growth an imprvment.

[flatpicker]

Just watched Carvers interview, and let me say hes really calling out either Mo or upper management.

http://torontofc.neulion.com/tfc/console.jsp (http://torontofc.neulion.com/tfc/console.jsp)


that team is oozing frustration... I wonder how some of the players are feeling about each other...
Do they bite their tongue or do they give shit to those that are slacking on the pitch?

[Toronto_Bhoy]

Ya know I just watched the interview for the second time.

Does anyone get the impression Carver is setting an ultimatum for Mo? The guys you've supplied me are shite…get me some players of quality or I'm offski? He is clearly not happy with the personnel he has.

Is he asking Mo, "How did this guy score 99 goals"? "This guy's going to the Olympics"?

[OneLoveOneEric]

Sweeping change of personnel isn't needed, but sweeping change of attitude is. I've said it in several threads, but put any striker you want out there, and it won't change the fact that our boys play without a shred of urgency. If they are waiting for a striker before they give it their all, then fuck 'em, that's not how professional sport should work.
I know that a DP striker would buoy spirits and probably give everyone a good kick, but it's really sad to me that that's what is needed to make them put in a 90 minute effort.

[Jimmy The Saint]

Just watched Carvers interview, and let me say hes really calling out either Mo or upper management. I feel for the guy we're playing some good football, but how is a 16 year old supposed to get the job done. It's asking way too much.. Hopefully something changes because the city of Toronto is going to have to accept losing to Quebec for yet another year, cause lord knows our winter team isn't going to do shit........


That was my thought as well - he was calling out Mo and the suits to get something done already.

He has "some" quality players, but they are quality in the position they play in, and the majority of them are not pure goal scores.

Qualified: NONE of them are pure goal scorers.

Damn I miss Danny D.

[Smenge]

The team is much better than last year's, and it will continue to improve. TFC did not lose to monteal, in fact, we took 4 out of 6 points from them. The game against Vancouver, where they loafed in the last 10 minutes cost us the trophy, more than what happened last night. Adding one or two proven forwards will make the team much better, and the supporters will be able to sleep again.

[noochie]

I genuinely believe that management is just a disappointed as we are and wants to make a positive impact. Given that the team has only been around for 18 months I am not sure that it is time to pull the parachute yet, but yes changes are needed. I still feel that one of the more important changes will be a new playing surface. It doesn't speak well to the viability of a franchise if you are constantly having trouble drawing in talented people.

Take away the fact that we play on a plastic pitch... what are other major factors that would prevent players from playing here?

[jimiv]

Last night was a tale of two teams, the first team was when Cunningham was not on the field, it looked like a team that was hungry for a win.

Then Carver put out Cunny, enter the second team, they looked like a frustrated bunch, who didn't want to make this guy look good.

Perhaps there is a "team" protest on the field by the players, I hope not..but at times it sure looks like it....

Bench him or release him just get rid of him.

[TicTacTabarnack]

Take away the fact that we play on a plastic pitch... what are other major factors that would prevent players from playing here?

Hmmm ... As per Huckerby Sun and a Beach Bum lifestyle? Good question though.

I also thought that the plastic pitch is a nuisance as it might put us at a disadvantage when adjusting to playing on real grass during away games.

[ExiledRed]

Then Carver put out Cunny, enter the second team, they looked like a frustrated bunch, who didn't want to make this guy look good.

Perhaps there is a "team" protest on the field by the players, I hope not..but at times it sure looks like it....



Mate,

They put the ball to his feet six yards in front of an uncontested goal.

Cunningham doesn't need a concerted effort from the players to look bad, he does fine by himself.

[Derko]

We don't need a DP, we just need 2 strikers that can put the ball in the back of the net. Doesn't need to be high priced does he?

[RPB_RED_NATION_RPB]

We don't need a DP, we just need 2 strikers that can put the ball in the back of the net. Doesn't need to be high priced does he?

dIDNT WE HAVE ONE IN buddle?


sEEMS WHO COULDNT score here...but he has a ton in LA!!!


its the turf!!:hump::D

[ben_vw]

We obviously need to change something. I don't think it's the coach. Nor do I think it's Mo Johnston. What does need to be changed?

- Get us grass. Field Turf has scared away Ronnie O'Brien, who is one of the league's best right midfielders, and Darren Huckerby who would have made a huge difference for us.

- Ditch the 4-5-1 for a 4-4-2. I don't care if we have to bench Edu. If it's better for the team, do it.

- Sign a DP. We need that big striker. The leader, the guy that just breathes confidence through the side. The guy we know will put the ball in the net.

- Sign another striker on top of that DP signing.

- Get rid of Cunningham. When you are the 4th leading scorer all time in MLS and a 16 year old kid is better than you, leave early before having to take a walk of shame.

- Sit Velez for a couple matches. He was solid for a string of matches about a month ago but since then looks like the Velez of old. Once Olivier Tebily is healthy put him in.

This is what our starting eleven SHOULD look like ASAP

--------------------Sutton----------------------
----Wynne---Tebily----Marshall---Brennan---
-------------------Robinson--------------------
-Ricketts--------------------------------Robert-
-------------------Guevara---------------------
------DP Striker-------------New Striker------

[bhoybobby]

Just watched Carvers interview, and let me say hes really calling out either Mo or upper management. I feel for the guy we're playing some good football, but how is a 16 year old supposed to get the job done. It's asking way too much.. Hopefully something changes because the city of Toronto is going to have to accept losing to Quebec for yet another year, cause lord knows our winter team isn't going to do shit........

Agreed, I posted as much on another thread. Mo showed some promise with earkier signings, but...............

We're gonna be hurting for depth. I blame him for the Cunny debacle & allowing it to continue.

The season is slavagable, but quality additions are needed. My personal take is Carver is a good coach who's bee short changed by Mo.

There should be change, but don't count on it.

[james]

Its a catalyst for change when more than a couple hundred supporters care, it may be overly bleak of me, but I don't think enough people care to push for change. And management almost certainly doesn't care.

i know what you mean. This match was such a let down, i really want to get it across to the team and players how much of a disapointment it was....but what could we do? most people probably didnt really care, they just care more about making the playoffs or something.

[Cashcleaner]

Mate,

They put the ball to his feet six yards in front of an uncontested goal.

Cunningham doesn't need a concerted effort from the players to look bad, he does fine by himself.

Quoted for truth. Furthermore, no player in his right mind would go out of his way to screw over another teammate in a game as important as Tuesdays.

Cunningham didn't want to put the effort in. It's his attitude that's the problem.

[Denis]

Not sure how apt the Celtic analogy is, though I do understand your point - looking for a silver lining in the cloud that was the Canadian Championship. Celtic are under near-unbearable pressure to win any game they play in. The team simply MUST perform and I'd argue the incredible mentality the team demonstrate (particularly at home) is driven by a fear of losing. It's not just a recent thing either. Celtic's party piece of scoring last minute winners has gone on for decades.

I can't really say that TFC players, fans, media etc have quite the same approach. Aside from a couple of triers on Tuesday, the majority of players went for a stroll on the pitch on Tuesday and that is absolutely criminal. Although I can't really see anything drastic changing this year. The team will be allowed to sleepwalk in the MLS now and not earn their wages. :(

[Toronto_Bhoy]

^^Agreed Denis…as a Jambo, nobody understands being frustrated by management/ownership more than you do! I feel for you.

The analogy is exactly as you stated…silver lining…lighting a fire…wake up call…whatever you want to call it. If you haven't had a chance to see Carver's post game presser, I recommend you look in the TFC site…I'd be curious to what you think…

[James17930]

We obviously need to change something. I don't think it's the coach. Nor do I think it's Mo Johnston. What does need to be changed?

- Get us grass. Field Turf has scared away Ronnie O'Brien, who is one of the league's best right midfielders, and Darren Huckerby who would have made a huge difference for us.

- Ditch the 4-5-1 for a 4-4-2. I don't care if we have to bench Edu. If it's better for the team, do it.

- Sign a DP. We need that big striker. The leader, the guy that just breathes confidence through the side. The guy we know will put the ball in the net.

- Sign another striker on top of that DP signing.

- Get rid of Cunningham. When you are the 4th leading scorer all time in MLS and a 16 year old kid is better than you, leave early before having to take a walk of shame.

- Sit Velez for a couple matches. He was solid for a string of matches about a month ago but since then looks like the Velez of old. Once Olivier Tebily is healthy put him in.

This is what our starting eleven SHOULD look like ASAP

--------------------Sutton----------------------
----Wynne---Tebily----Marshall---Brennan---
-------------------Robinson--------------------
-Ricketts--------------------------------Robert-
-------------------Guevara---------------------
------DP Striker-------------New Striker------

I like everything you've said there.

The only problem is, I think we too casually throw around the command 'sign a DP striker.' Something like this is not that easy. Who's worthy of being a DP (although at least we can see they are trying -- Nuno Gomes, for example).

But, basically, yes, this loss can be a catalyst for change -- change in the attitude of the players. For whatever reason they've just been hanging back lately, not being forceful enough in their chances. They may have the desire but they're not directing enough of that to their feet.

As much as losing the NCC hurts (I was so sure there was going to be CCL action at BMO this year), if they pull up their socks and makes the playoffs I still think this year could be considered a success.

[Fort York Redcoat]

“Super Caley Go Ballistic, Celtic Are Atrocious”!


I just got it. Too much.

They'll be change but catalyst suggests a blowup to me and I think we are about to see a little tinkering at best.

[Denis]

^^Agreed Denis…as a Jambo, nobody understands being frustrated by management/ownership more than you do! I feel for you.

The analogy is exactly as you stated…silver lining…lighting a fire…wake up call…whatever you want to call it. If you haven't had a chance to see Carver's post game presser, I recommend you look in the TFC site…I'd be curious to what you think…

Carver just seems to be at the end of his tether with Cunny not delivering (which to be fair, we all are) and that sitter on Tuesday was the tipping point for him. However, the job of suitably motivating the team rests at him so he is not blameless. The team in the past few games (since late June I'd say) have not been 'up for it' as it were; a good few seem unwilling to break out of a light jog.

I understand that teams naturally can't keep up high-intensity performances forever, but to go back to the Celtic analogy, whenever the chips are down there is always someone who takes charge of the situation if the 'stars' aren't going to. Celtic's crucial goals have come from all over the team; not just a couple of recognised matchwinners. Aside from Dichio, nobody quite frankly seems capable of being able/wanting to make a chance count. Robert and Guevara have lots of skill but they can't use it effectively and everyone else in the side panics once they get within 35 yards of goal.

Having said that, Toronto FC is not a badly run club by any stretch - but if we're looking for on-field success, we need changes.