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Yohan
10-26-2014, 01:21 AM
Random thoughts about the shitshow that was this season. Probably going to be several random posts throughout next couple of weeks.

1. Michael Bradley

On the pitch and tactically, this ended up being TFC's biggest issue. Just where to play Michael Bradley and how? Both Nelsen and Bradley tried to figure this out, but didn't come up with good enough answer.

The biggest issue with Badly, errr... Bradley is that he thinks he's a combination of Messi and Busquets and tried to do everything at once. Ever notice how TFC played better through midfield if Bradley is not on the pitch? Far more organized with people knowing their roles better. Put Bradley in the pitch and the midfield plays like basketball. Pass the ball to Bradley like he's Kobe Bryant and just watch for things to happen and react to it. Passing the ball to Bradley means you're no longer responsible for the ball, and it's an easy way out. Frustrating.

Bradley has potential to be the best midfielder in MLS, but this season, he was far from being one. Not even close. Average at best. He can do a lot of things, but not all of them at once. So, Vanney needs to make a decision and pick a role for Bradley. Is he a box to box midfielder? Probably his best role. Or is he a DM with deep playmaking role, which seems to be Bradley's preferred role. Whichever one Vanney decides is the best use of Bradley, he needs to pick one for him, and more importantly, make Bradley stick with that role only. If he is playing B2B role, don't let him drop back too deep, because he won't be supporting the attackers if he's too deep. If he's playing DM, make him understand that he cannot allow the defence to get exposed on the counter, so he cannot venture too far up the pitch. Bradley needs to be more disciplined.

Bradley may be a high paid DP and he is a competitor who wants to win. But he needs to realize that he cannot carry the team alone, and he needs better understanding of his role within the team and not take on too much.

Yohan
10-26-2014, 01:42 AM
2. 4-3-3? Are you kidding me?

I'm a fan of 4-3-3. It's a fun formation, when it works. But in MLS, it's a very tricky formation to play, because you need technical players who are comfortable with the ball across the entire team. It's also a formation you need to have learned for a long time to get good understanding of how it works and your role in it starting from young age. Most NA players don't get exposed to 4-3-3 enough.

Right now, TFC doesn't have the players to play 4-3-3. The CBs aren't comfortable enough with the ball to start the transition out of the back. The central midfields are ok, but the wingers are the problem. Jackson has the work rate, but not the footy IQ. Oduro has the pace, but not good enough technically and doesn't track back. Wingers/wide forwards in 4-3-3 need to track back so that on defence, 4-3-3 becomes a 4-1-4-1 or a variant, so that midfield doesn't get overrun when defending. The wingers need to be able to whip in a cross consistently. Oduro and Jackson aren't good with crosses. And wingers need to be very smart when to make runs forward.

You also need an attacking midfielder who will be focus of attack in the final third. TFC doesn't have a Valeri or Higuain to run the offence in a 4-3-3. The #10 position becomes so vital that you need one main guy, and another one as back up. They will be expensive to find.

So these are some of reasons why I don't think 4-3-3 can work for TFC. What about SKC you say. Well, SKC plays 4-3-3, but they play a North American variant that relies more on athleticism than technicality. SKC plays a high pressure 4-3-3 that relies on overwhelming opposition at one area of the pitch to generate turnovers which turns into a counter attack. They play an extreme high tempo game that takes a long time to perfect. SKC has some skilled players for that bit of magic, but overall, they require everyone to constantly press and help out on defence. It's an interesting variant that requires very specific kind of players to work, which SKC has been successful in finding.

So if Vanney wants to play 4-3-3 next year, it's going to require a lot of new players. And do we really want another huge roster upheaval?

Lumpy
10-26-2014, 06:21 AM
No post-mortem can be complete without discussing the “firing”. Prior to the “firing” we were in 3rd place , at season’s end we were 7th. In our last 10 games which coincide with Vanney’s reign we scored a grand total of 9 goals and were shutout in 5 of those 10 games. Seven of these 10 games were against non-playoff teams. We only managed to get 8 points out of a possible 21 against these non-playoff teams. Our overall record for those 10 games was 2W-6L-2D. The season was lost because we did not score goals in our last 10 games and we couldn’t beat the shitty teams we played.

Lumpy
10-26-2014, 06:36 AM
Here is the flotsam and jetsam list:

Bekker-De Rosario-Defoe-Hall-Moore-Morgan -Oduro-Osorio-Richter-Wiedeman

Pookie
10-26-2014, 06:51 AM
In this discussion, as players' names come to the forefront and we discuss their potential and/or current contributions I would like to offer a little perspective. At one time or another, the following players were deemed to be unworthy of playing for TFC. Upgrades were needed. They had faults. Etc. Etc. Some to more degree than others.

Luis Silva
Nana Attakora
Jacob Peterson
Toni Tchani
Bobby Convey
Richard Eckersely
Chad Barrett
Stefan Frei
Todd Dunivant
Dan Gargan
Alan Gordon
Aaron Maund
Joao Plata
Matias Laba

…. well, as it turns out, each of the above will participate in the MLS Playoffs this year. Whether starter or depth, each was selected to the roster of teams that are much better than TFC.

I don't want to get into a debate as to why each was let go. Simply stating that when it comes to player evaluation, our club and we as fans, really don't have a track record of predicting success.

OgtheDim
10-26-2014, 08:15 AM
Ultimately, this season failed to get to the playoffs because our system we were trying to play was easy to solve. It was further hampered by getting Bradley and the inability of management to develop pieces around him to allow him to succeed.


a) Bez didn't replace Laba

b) We got a gift with Bradley but had no clue where to play him and who to put where around him

c) We spent 1.5 seasons building a system that could not adjust once teams took our midfield seriously and was too fragile at the back to be successful



For the next off season to be a success, we need

a) a second stud CD that will take over as the back line leader once Caldwell goes for 2016

b) a defensive minded first midfielder (Warner and Creavalle are not it)

c) a #10

d) decent wingers who can cross the ball and track back



5 starters


At the end of 2012, we needed 10 starters and a complete turn over.

At the end of 2013, we needed 7 starters.

At the end of 2014, we need 5.


Its progress but we should have progressed more this season - we should be looking for only 2-3 pieces.

Over the last 2 seasons we found a future stud CD in Hagglund, a great LB in Morrow, a decent enough RB in Bloom, a decent enough central mid in Osorio, an All Star CM is Bradley, a hard working pest of a striker in Gilberto, a good prospect left winger in Lovitz, and a hard working fan favourite to return with DeRo.

A number of signings that were supposed to fix things have not done the job, for various reasons - Orr, Oduro, Jackson, Defoe, Warner.

Ultra & Proud
10-26-2014, 08:45 AM
Salary cap will change a lot next season but unless it goes up significantly, we need to chop a lot of dead meat off this roster. If it does go up to $5M or thereabouts then at least we'll have decent bench as half of our starters should be on it or cut.

Off season needs list: a very good AM, a veteran CB, a RB, a CF, a true DM, at least one winger that can consistently cross, and a solid GK that can distribute from the re-entry draft. Depending on the cap we could get half or more of this list from the re-entry draft like DC did. You want a quick turnaround and acquiring proven, but pricey MLS vets is how to do it.

ensco
10-26-2014, 08:52 AM
We have to stop the recriminations, they lead to unnecessary player turnover ...

We were one of the worst teams in league history last year. We improved a fair bit from there, but the fact that the $100M didn't work was to be expected (teams in most leagues/sports generally can't buy contenders without spending $500M), it's only Leiweke's idiotic pronouncements that is muddling the issue..

This team won a bunch of games it didn't deserve early on, then was unlucky down the stretch. We finished more or less where we deserved to finish. We had some injuries but it wasn't epic (our 31 year old striker is breaking down, what a shock....) so that is not a story this time.

Overall we were quite a bit better, competitive in many games. There was significant improvement, a core group has been established.

None of this is about Vanney per se, btw. The coaching call is different. But I would want a new coach to be committed to working with what is here.

I think mgmt is in a state of constantly blowing things up because they read what we say, and are trying to please us! And I am not kidding about that.

Ultra & Proud
10-26-2014, 09:10 AM
We have to stop the recriminations, they lead to unnecessary player turnover ...

We were one of the worst teams in league history last year. We improved a fair bit from there, but the fact that the $100M didn't work was to be expected (teams in most leagues/sports generally can't buy contenders without spending $500M), it's only Leiweke's idiotic pronouncements that is muddling the issue..

This team won a bunch of games it didn't deserve early on, then was unlucky down the stretch. We finished more or less where we deserved to finish. We had some injuries but it wasn't epic (our 31 year old striker is breaking down, what a shock....) so that is not a story this time.

Overall we were quite a bit better, competitive in many games. There was significant improvement, a core group has been established.

None of this is about Vanney per se, btw. The coaching call is different. But I would want a new coach to be committed to working with what is here.

I think mgmt is in a state of constantly blowing things up because they read what we say, and are trying to please us! And I am not kidding about that.
Bottom line is that if Vanney stays and wants to play an intelligent, modern 4-3-3 then quite a few of those players who make up our core and scrapped out results earlier will be hard pressed to succeed in any system better than a Nelsen like counter game as that is what they were acquired to do. You can kid yourself about keeping a core but Vanney won't. He isn't stupid by any means. He knows that the squad was built to counter and that these players won't be able to play what he wants so he will have a ton of turnover. That's my issue. We will have a lot of turnover no matter who manages next and since it's inevitable then I would prefer an experienced manager who can stay awhile so at least the turnover won't be for nothing and we won't be doing it all again next July.

Ultra & Proud
10-26-2014, 09:19 AM
And I hope they do read what we say. Hiring noob managers and letting them turn the roster over only to be dumped fast because it's easy is what got us where we are today. As did constantly rolling the dice with unknown managers armed with new systems hoping to land an identity.

For once get a legit manager, don't care if familiar with MLS. Get him a MLS experienced assistant, keep Bez as GM/bean counter but make new manager director of player personel and technical director. Pick the right guy. Same idea as with Winter but pick the right guy with the right system and the right assistant.

pdubs
10-26-2014, 10:55 AM
Honestly the TL "playoffs" comment really fucked us. Without that and some of the hype train, if we look where we started last year, finished and where we finished this season, it has been a good improvement. In terms of the team itself I think the priority should be how to best fit Bradley into the team. What system works best for him? What players does he need around him to make our team dangerous? If we get a legit DP DM (like a Laba) and a DP CAM then I think we will see the best from Bradley.

Where does Osorio fit? I personal do not think he can play out wide. CAM is his best position but can he run our offense? I do not know if he is ready. If he is our CAM, do we get a DP wide attacking midfielder or winger? Would a DP DM, Bradley, Osorio and a wide DP winger be enough?

I think we needed one CB at the start of this season. Now we need 2 starting MLS caliber CB's. Hagglund can cover, and cover relatively well (if memory serves lol) at RB in a pinch. If Henry goes, draft another CB for more cover. Maybe we get another Hagglund type. I would personally buy out Caldwell. He will be on $300,000-$350,000 ish and that is too much for his age and the injuries from this past season.

Staying on Hagglund I think we drafted well this past year. Hagglund played too many games with Henry but he has been essentially everything we have wanted in a CB from college. Lovitz has also been quality for someone coming from the college system. These assets we need to keep and develop. Don't think Lovitz is ready to start games but coming off the bench he gives us an attacking mindset. He is always looking to go forward and will take players on. Something Oduro and Jackson cannot do.

Speaking of those two, they are both terrible frustrating. I was so pumped about Oduro coming to the team. He cannot cross and he cannot shoot. Yes he has speed but honestly I never really saw him take over people with his speed. I would get rid of him.

Jackson I like defensively. He is super fast and defensively strong. He cannot play RB we know that now. The major issue is the cards he collects. We knew he would be a problem coming in. Offensively he gives us nothing, which I would be fine with if we can fit him in a system or situations where defense and speed our key. People will say get ride of him, and I wouldn't have a problem with that. However I would keep one of Jackson/Oduro because of their speed. Personally I would keep Jackson - he is younger and defensively he help us a lot this season in that respect.

Gilberto I like - do we give him more time? I said I personally need 1 season out of him to determine if he is right for us. If the team gets a GOOD offer for him outside the league (do not want to get burned by him in the future and everyone knows this will happen) then maybe transfer him. His work rate it top notch. With a proper CAM and midfield would this provide him even more opportunities? If we add the disallowed goal in (Garber said it was a goal so in my mind i am counting it lol) and the numerous posts he hit during the year his tally could be in the 10-12 mark. Good enough for a DP striker? On the whole I would say no, however he was battling injury at the beginning of the year.

On the whole, I would keep him and see what he can do in his second season until January. Full, healthy preseason, more language and culture integration under him. Same conversation as with Bradley - what system works best for him? I think as a lone striker and proper wingers we could see the best out of him. He is young and wants to win. Like I said tho, an outside the league transfer I wouldn't really be against either, but I think we are all done with the "Defoe aged DP". Young south american striker with MLS experience? We have that in Gilberto.

Defoe- easy get rid of him. Even if he has a "change of heart" for some reason. When healthy he scores goals. When he isn't healthy he is a massive distraction.

For the love of all that is holy, get rid of - Hall and Morgan. Hall is useless and Morgan will never be our LB.

Bekker - honestly he showed more this season. With a proper DM and Bradley behind him, in the CAM where is defensively responsibility is way less can he offer us something? Maybe. He is Canadian and isn't taking a chunk of cap space, I would keep him.

More later. Need more time to digest and go in-depth position by position.

TFC07
10-26-2014, 11:00 AM
And I hope they do read what we say. Hiring noob managers and letting them turn the roster over only to be dumped fast because it's easy is what got us where we are today. As did constantly rolling the dice with unknown managers armed with new systems hoping to land an identity.

For once get a legit manager, don't care if familiar with MLS. Get him a MLS experienced assistant, keep Bez as GM/bean counter but make new manager director of player personel and technical director. Pick the right guy. Same idea as with Winter but pick the right guy with the right system and the right assistant.

Agree with this post 100%

We need a new manager with experience to lead this club before deciding which players to get waive or trade.

Once we get a new manager, then we can discuss about players.

TorontoGooner
10-26-2014, 11:36 AM
We fired a Manager who had us in 3rd place with 10 games to go. All because of politics and a blip in form.

We replaced him with the youth team coach who showed he is absolute clueless, and drove us down to 7th. SEVENTH. The club got exactly what they deserved

We will not make the playoffs under Vanney next year.

azorean
10-26-2014, 12:31 PM
Here is the flotsam and jetsam list:

Bekker-De Rosario-Defoe-Hall-Moore-Morgan -Oduro-Osorio-Richter-Wiedeman



About right, though I am tempted to ditch everyone and just start over..lol

I would add Caldwell to your list. Look at his outrageous salary and compare that with what a guy like waston just did for Vancouver at either half or a little more of the cost. Hate picking on the guy but he offers nada other than his flailing arms, wtf is up with that? He carries himself like he is leading man united or something with his air of self importance but makes little difference, just too much money for a guy like that. Just another example of tfc overpaying.

Also, osorio has potential. One to keep.

notthesun
10-26-2014, 01:36 PM
In this discussion, as players' names come to the forefront and we discuss their potential and/or current contributions I would like to offer a little perspective. At one time or another, the following players were deemed to be unworthy of playing for TFC. Upgrades were needed. They had faults. Etc. Etc. Some to more degree than others.

Luis Silva
Nana Attakora
Jacob Peterson
Toni Tchani
Bobby Convey
Richard Eckersely
Chad Barrett
Stefan Frei
Todd Dunivant
Dan Gargan
Alan Gordon
Aaron Maund
Joao Plata
Matias Laba

…. well, as it turns out, each of the above will participate in the MLS Playoffs this year. Whether starter or depth, each was selected to the roster of teams that are much better than TFC.

I don't want to get into a debate as to why each was let go. Simply stating that when it comes to player evaluation, our club and we as fans, really don't have a track record of predicting success.

I've said more or less the same in a few match threads now. I think blowing up the team would be a massive mistake at this point. Since Vanney and Bez seem to be staying, I'm hopeful it doesn't happen (I would not be against a new experienced coach at all but I'm afraid it would lead to massive turnover).

I see guys like Oduro, Warner, Jackson come under heaps of criticism during games. I have no problem with that; they've had some stinkers and it's in the heat of the moment. But when people turn around later and immediately demand we ship them out for upgrades... that I find troubling. That's a bad look. It's way too quick a reaction. If it's a guy who has consistently shown over time he doesn't have what it takes, okay (e.g. Lambe, increasingly Bekker). But the guys I mentioned have had moderately to fairly successful careers in MLS already. They're not useless. People fail to realize the issues that these and other guys on our roster have can be largely covered up when they're in a well-coached team that has a functional and understood system. Dan Gargan is a run-of-the-mill RB but he gets legitimate minutes for one of the elite teams in the league. Toni Tchani is not agile and can't dribble well, but he's been an all-star for Columbus this season because they know how to use him. Barrett is Chad Fucking Barrett yet he's contributing off the bench for Seattle because he's got a damn good team behind him. And Plata, well, we all thought the league had figured him out when he was traded.

Dallas was happy with Jackson for 3 years and he's got 4 goals for us. Oduro has a 12 and 13 goal season in MLS under his belt. Warner showed his quality in the 3-4 games right after we snapped him up before Bradley came back. They can be useful players in a proper team.

I'm not saying we necessarily must keep these or other guys, or that new players aren't needed, because they are. But when a player is not performing for us, our first reaction should be to look at the team as a whole, the big picture, and identify issues there rather than vilify individual players and look for better replacements. Doing the latter has hurt us a hell of a lot more than it has helped over the years.

azorean
10-26-2014, 01:37 PM
We have to stop the recriminations, they lead to unnecessary player turnover ...

We were one of the worst teams in league history last year. We improved a fair bit from there, but the fact that the $100M didn't work was to be expected (teams in most leagues/sports generally can't buy contenders without spending $500M), it's only Leiweke's idiotic pronouncements that is muddling the issue..

This team won a bunch of games it didn't deserve early on, then was unlucky down the stretch. We finished more or less where we deserved to finish. We had some injuries but it wasn't epic (our 31 year old striker is breaking down, what a shock....) so that is not a story this time.

Overall we were quite a bit better, competitive in many games. There was significant improvement, a core group has been established.

None of this is about Vanney per se, btw. The coaching call is different. But I would want a new coach to be committed to working with what is here.

I think mgmt is in a state of constantly blowing things up because they read what we say, and are trying to please us! And I am not kidding about that.

Was to be expected? In Mls? Wtf?.....the money that was spent on tfc was more than enough to produce at least a playoff spot. I'm sorry but especially in Mls, where the cap is so low, and throwing around mega dollars like we did and to not reach the playoffs?. That was money misspent. Give any other team our budget for this past season and your looking at cup contenders. This was a colossal failure.

Yohan
10-26-2014, 02:06 PM
Was to be expected? In Mls? Wtf?.....the money that was spent on tfc was more than enough to produce at least a playoff spot. I'm sorry but especially in Mls, where the cap is so low, and throwing around mega dollars like we did and to not reach the playoffs?. That was money misspent. Give any other team our budget for this past season and your looking at cup contenders. This was a colossal failure.
if it was 100 mil spent on entire team, then yeah.

but it was spent on 3 players that proved not enough. to win with DPs, all your DPs need to be highly productive and injury free all the time. all 3 TFC DPs were busts one way or another.

MightyDM
10-26-2014, 02:08 PM
Random thoughts about the shitshow that was this season. Probably going to be several random posts throughout next couple of weeks.

1. Michael Bradley

On the pitch and tactically, this ended up being TFC's biggest issue. Just where to play Michael Bradley and how? Both Nelsen and Bradley tried to figure this out, but didn't come up with good enough answer.

The biggest issue with Badly, errr... Bradley is that he thinks he's a combination of Messi and Busquets and tried to do everything at once. Ever notice how TFC played better through midfield if Bradley is not on the pitch? Far more organized with people knowing their roles better. Put Bradley in the pitch and the midfield plays like basketball. Pass the ball to Bradley like he's Kobe Bryant and just watch for things to happen and react to it. Passing the ball to Bradley means you're no longer responsible for the ball, and it's an easy way out. Frustrating.

Bradley has potential to be the best midfielder in MLS, but this season, he was far from being one. Not even close. Average at best. He can do a lot of things, but not all of them at once. So, Vanney needs to make a decision and pick a role for Bradley. Is he a box to box midfielder? Probably his best role. Or is he a DM with deep playmaking role, which seems to be Bradley's preferred role. Whichever one Vanney decides is the best use of Bradley, he needs to pick one for him, and more importantly, make Bradley stick with that role only. If he is playing B2B role, don't let him drop back too deep, because he won't be supporting the attackers if he's too deep. If he's playing DM, make him understand that he cannot allow the defence to get exposed on the counter, so he cannot venture too far up the pitch. Bradley needs to be more disciplined.

Bradley may be a high paid DP and he is a competitor who wants to win. But he needs to realize that he cannot carry the team alone, and he needs better understanding of his role within the team and not take on too much.

Absolutely nailed what I saw this season, and what ultimately cost Nelsen his job.

Yohan
10-26-2014, 02:08 PM
I've said more or less the same in a few match threads now. I think blowing up the team would be a massive mistake at this point. Since Vanney and Bez seem to be staying, I'm hopeful it doesn't happen (I would not be against a new experienced coach at all but I'm afraid it would lead to massive turnover).

I see guys like Oduro, Warner, Jackson come under heaps of criticism during games. I have no problem with that; they've had some stinkers and it's in the heat of the moment. But when people turn around later and immediately demand we ship them out for upgrades... that I find troubling. That's a bad look. It's way too quick a reaction. If it's a guy who has consistently shown over time he doesn't have what it takes, okay (e.g. Lambe, increasingly Bekker). But the guys I mentioned have had moderately to fairly successful careers in MLS already. They're not useless. People fail to realize the issues that these and other guys on our roster have can be largely covered up when they're in a well-coached team that has a functional and understood system. Dan Gargan is a run-of-the-mill RB but he gets legitimate minutes for one of the elite teams in the league. Toni Tchani is not agile and can't dribble well, but he's been an all-star for Columbus this season because they know how to use him. Barrett is Chad Fucking Barrett yet he's contributing off the bench for Seattle because he's got a damn good team behind him. And Plata, well, we all thought the league had figured him out when he was traded.

Dallas was happy with Jackson for 3 years and he's got 4 goals for us. Oduro has a 12 and 13 goal season in MLS under his belt. Warner showed his quality in the 3-4 games right after we snapped him up before Bradley came back. They can be useful players in a proper team.

I'm not saying we necessarily must keep these or other guys, or that new players aren't needed, because they are. But when a player is not performing for us, our first reaction should be to look at the team as a whole, the big picture, and identify issues there rather than vilify individual players and look for better replacements. Doing the latter has hurt us a hell of a lot more than it has helped over the years.
spot on. we need better talent evaluation. some players will be released or traded and that can't be helped in a cap league. but we do need to play better moneyball and not just giveaway players for free or cheap

jloome
10-26-2014, 02:11 PM
Bottom line is that if Vanney stays and wants to play an intelligent, modern 4-3-3 then quite a few of those players who make up our core and scrapped out results earlier will be hard pressed to succeed in any system better than a Nelsen like counter game as that is what they were acquired to do. You can kid yourself about keeping a core but Vanney won't. He isn't stupid by any means. He knows that the squad was built to counter and that these players won't be able to play what he wants so he will have a ton of turnover. That's my issue. We will have a lot of turnover no matter who manages next and since it's inevitable then I would prefer an experienced manager who can stay awhile so at least the turnover won't be for nothing and we won't be doing it all again next July.

We'll have more turnover with a new manager than with Vanney. He's said so himself on several occasions. And the starters we have who aren't good enough to start ARE good enough for bench depth.

I think Ensco's right; I think MLSE reads this stuff and makes decisions based on the most panicky positions.

I saw improvement under Vanney in terms of offensive movement. I saw obvious issues of learning new tactics and positional responsibities; most caretakers who come in get the bounce because they were direct assistants to the guy fired and they don't change anything tactically; Vanney has switched us up considerably.

In terms of defense and defensive movement, we had more issues after Nelsen left, but again that's to be expected.

Book it right here: we will NOT see massive player turnover this year. We may see a few fringe players (Hall, DeRo) dropped because they rarely saw the pitch or contributed. But we won't see a mass exodus.

azorean
10-26-2014, 02:17 PM
if it was 100 mil spent on entire team, then yeah.

but it was spent on 3 players that proved not enough. to win with DPs, all your DPs need to be highly productive and injury free all the time. all 3 TFC DPs were busts one way or another.

OK. So we failed. Bottom line. Like I said. Still think if every other team was given our budget, regardless of dp restrictions or what not, they would have done more. we did not.

Yohan
10-26-2014, 02:18 PM
We'll have more turnover with a new manager than with Vanney. He's said so himself on several occasions. And the starters we have who aren't good enough to start ARE good enough for bench depth.

I think Ensco's right; I think MLSE reads this stuff and makes decisions based on the most panicky positions.

I saw improvement under Vanney in terms of offensive movement. I saw obvious issues of learning new tactics and positional responsibities; most caretakers who come in get the bounce because they were direct assistants to the guy fired and they don't change anything tactically; Vanney has switched us up considerably.

In terms of defense and defensive movement, we had more issues after Nelsen left, but again that's to be expected.

Book it right here: we will NOT see massive player turnover this year. We may see a few fringe players (Hall, DeRo) dropped because they rarely saw the pitch or contributed. But we won't see a mass exodus.
We won't see a mass exodus because with increase in the cap, we likely can afford to keep all the players Vanney wants. In previous years, the high cap hit players would have to be traded to make cap room for new players.
Plus bundles of allocation cash (and we get more again for sucking) means TFC has a lot of room to add for next season.

SoccMan2
10-26-2014, 02:19 PM
Bradley is a DM that's it a very good DM nothing more nothing less he plays the same position as Laba and Warner. This team needs an attacking midfielder we can't go into next season without a proper AM, Osorio is not the answer if anybody from management is reading this go get a fucking AM do not dare go into next season without one!

Yohan
10-26-2014, 02:20 PM
OK. So we failed. Bottom line. Like I said. Still think if every other team was given our budget, regardless of dp restrictions or what not, we Still would/ should have done more.
oh I agree. pretty much all managers would love to have the wage budget TFC has. this season has told me that we suck a talent identification and the level of dysfunction in TFC is just as bad, if not worse than MoJo/Winter-Mariner years

OgtheDim
10-26-2014, 02:22 PM
...
Book it right here: we will NOT see massive player turnover this year. We may see a few fringe players (Hall, DeRo) dropped because they rarely saw the pitch or contributed. But we won't see a mass exodus.

I don't think we are going to see 12 players currently on the roster leave. BUT, our issues are obvious and do need to be addressed.

Oduro and Jackson might get better, but there is nothing in their past that indicates they can do so and provide what we require out of those positions.

As for the central defence and the lack of midfield defensive support, the failings are bemoaned by more then just people on here. Molinaro talked about this as our achilles heel back in March. If they don't address the defence, Bez should be fired at the end of next season. Caldwell & Hagglund or Henry with Warner in front of them are not good enough as a unit. If there is no upgrade in the central defensive core, we will not make the playoffs.

Yohan
10-26-2014, 02:52 PM
3. The need for depth in centrebacks.

Most MLS teams build their squad defence first, because if you can't keep the opposition from scoring, you're going to lose and it's easier to defend than to score. So, your CBs need to be good.

You need 5 good CBs with 3 MLS starter calibre. That sounds like a lot, but with injuries and fatigue, you're likely going through at least 4 of your CBs. This is how I see a good CB depth chart. This chart is very loose with definitions.
1. Commanding CB. Organizer with experience. Likely cost around 250-350k. (Chad Marshall, Omar Gonzalez)
2. Solid CB. Good #2 CB with at least some experience. Can fill in #1 in need. 150-275k. (Matt Hedges, Jeff Parke)
3. Decent CB. Experienced, but ok quality. Or a youngster with high potential with some experience under belt. 100-175k (Doneil Henry, Pa Madou Kah)
4. Depth CB. Varying level of MLS experience. Cheap, does the job, but not expected to play first team a lot. High NCAA draft pick can go here also. 60-100k. (Stephen Keel, Nick Hagglund)
5. Rookie CB. HG or draft pick. Rookies with not much experience, and gets their mins either on loan, or during Cup games. 45k-70k. (Karl Ouimette, Christian Dean)

Toronto had 1 solid CB Caldwell and one decent CB in Henry. Hagglund should be depth or rookie and shouldn't have expected to get so many mins. Orr is a depth CB and he played out of position. You need at least one solid CB to lead the defence. When Caldwell went down, that became an issue because when you have 2 young CBs, it just not going to work, no matter how good their potential may be.

Because of injuries and fatigue, your squad often ends up relying on how good your 3rd and 4th CBs are. Dallas lost George John all season. Most teams would probably suck if you lose your #1 CB for the year. But Dallas has another stud in Matt Hedges who'd normally fill #2 spot. And got a lot of mins out of their #3 guy Stephen Keel. And they also had #4 Walker Zimmerman who is a young up and comer at 21, but still pitched in with 10 games. So Dallas managed to survive losing John, because they had depth.

If TFC wants to succeed, we need 2 solid CBs. Caldwell is on his last legs and he should be in #3 role, splitting time with Henry. Hagglund is #4. If Vanney wants to play more attacking game, TFC will need to spend a lot more on CBs, maybe one on a DP, because you'll need that higher individual quality to make up for lack of protection from midfield. If Vanney plays more defence first game, TFC can get away with spending less, but will need better organized defence that defends collectively, plus a defence first DM to shield the back four. Either way, we need help on defence.

azorean
10-26-2014, 03:56 PM
3. The need for depth in centrebacks.

Most MLS teams build their squad defence first, because if you can't keep the opposition from scoring, you're going to lose and it's easier to defend than to score. So, your CBs need to be good.

You need 5 good CBs with 3 MLS starter calibre. That sounds like a lot, but with injuries and fatigue, you're likely going through at least 4 of your CBs. This is how I see a good CB depth chart. This chart is very loose with definitions.
1. Commanding CB. Organizer with experience. Likely cost around 250-350k. (Chad Marshall, Omar Gonzalez)
2. Solid CB. Good #2 CB with at least some experience. Can fill in #1 in need. 150-275k. (Matt Hedges, Jeff Parke)
3. Decent CB. Experienced, but ok quality. Or a youngster with high potential with some experience under belt. 100-175k (Doneil Henry, Pa Madou Kah)
4. Depth CB. Varying level of MLS experience. Cheap, does the job, but not expected to play first team a lot. High NCAA draft pick can go here also. 60-100k. (Stephen Keel, Nick Hagglund)
5. Rookie CB. HG or draft pick. Rookies with not much experience, and gets their mins either on loan, or during Cup games. 45k-70k. (Karl Ouimette, Christian Dean)

Toronto had 1 solid CB Caldwell and one decent CB in Henry. Hagglund should be depth or rookie and shouldn't have expected to get so many mins. Orr is a depth CB and he played out of position. You need at least one solid CB to lead the defence. When Caldwell went down, that became an issue because when you have 2 young CBs, it just not going to work, no matter how good their potential may be.

Because of injuries and fatigue, your squad often ends up relying on how good your 3rd and 4th CBs are. Dallas lost George John all season. Most teams would probably suck if you lose your #1 CB for the year. But Dallas has another stud in Matt Hedges who'd normally fill #2 spot. And got a lot of mins out of their #3 guy Stephen Keel. And they also had #4 Walker Zimmerman who is a young up and comer at 21, but still pitched in with 10 games. So Dallas managed to survive losing John, because they had depth.

If TFC wants to succeed, we need 2 solid CBs. Caldwell is on his last legs and he should be in #3 role, splitting time with Henry. Hagglund is #4. If Vanney wants to play more attacking game, TFC will need to spend a lot more on CBs, maybe one on a DP, because you'll need that higher individual quality to make up for lack of protection from midfield. If Vanney plays more defence first game, TFC can get away with spending less, but will need better organized defence that defends collectively, plus a defence first DM to shield the back four. Either way, we need help on defence.

Yohan, you really think Caldwell is worth keeping at his salary?!...I would take any of the other guys you listed over Caldwell. I haven't compared salaries but from what you listed they are all better and cheaper options. Why keep the guy? He has not proven to be a difference maker yet his salary is of one that should be. He is almost a liability on defense with his flailing arms. He seems to have some leadership ability but that is not good enough when everything else is lacking and you are making 400 grand in a small cap league like Mls. He is easily replaceable for what he brings. look at some other Mls signings in comparison, goncalves a little more but look what he means for NE, it is not even comparable, bernardez is way cheaper, Watson, the list goes on. I don't hate Caldwell, but he ain't worth what he's making. End of.

Yohan
10-26-2014, 04:13 PM
Yohan, you really think Caldwell is worth keeping at his salary?!...I would take any of the other guys you listed over Caldwell. I haven't compared salaries but from what you listed they are all better and cheaper options. Why keep the guy? He has not proven to be a difference maker yet his salary is of one that should be. He is almost a liability on defense with his flailing arms. He seems to have some leadership ability but that is not good enough when everything else is lacking and you are making 400 grand in a small cap league like Mls. He is easily replaceable for what he brings. look at some other Mls signings in comparison, goncalves a little more but look what he means for NE, it is not even comparable, bernardez is way cheaper, Watson, the list goes on. I don't hate Caldwell, but he ain't worth what he's making. End of.
it's the matter of whether you can find someone to take Caldwell at his salary. nobody in MLS wants him at his current cap hit, and if Caldwell's agent wasn't stupid, he'd have ensured Caldwell has a guaranteed contract.

so we're more or less stuck with Caldwell for next season

pdubs
10-26-2014, 04:40 PM
it's the matter of whether you can find someone to take Caldwell at his salary. nobody in MLS wants him at his current cap hit, and if Caldwell's agent wasn't stupid, he'd have ensured Caldwell has a guaranteed contract.

so we're more or less stuck with Caldwell for next season

Can we use the 1 buyout we have per year on Caldwell? Or are there stipulations to using the buyout? Have things changed?

Yohan
10-26-2014, 04:44 PM
Can we use the 1 buyout we have per year on Caldwell? Or are there stipulations to using the buyout? Have things changed?
yes you can. it has to be done during the off season

pdubs
10-26-2014, 04:45 PM
He is probably my number one candidate then lol. Like the guy, hate the back loaded contract and his injuries.

Yohan
10-26-2014, 05:14 PM
He is probably my number one candidate then lol. Like the guy, hate the back loaded contract and his injuries.
Caldwell actually has been injury free for most of his career with TFC. the one this season IIRC is the only long injury absence he has with TFC

pdubs
10-26-2014, 05:40 PM
Caldwell actually has been injury free for most of his career with TFC. the one this season IIRC is the only long injury absence he has with TFC

True but next season he will be turing 35. Have to weight what he brings with the potential for more injuries. Idk

notthesun
10-26-2014, 06:05 PM
Caldwell is getting up there in age but I vote we keep him for the simple fact that moving him means we need to acquire not one but two stud CBs. We have a decent chance of being able to land one good CB, good enough such that him and Caldwell paired together are a formidable duo. We know what we've got in Caldwell; with a good partner we'd be solid in the back. I have little faith in management's ability to hit the bullseye on two CBs. There's also value in backline familiarity and we know at least one of our backline players will start next year (Morrow), with others possibly staying with the team and playing a role, so that's a plus for keeping Caldwell too.

It's incredibly disheartening to see a team like Vancouver come back from Costa Rica with a beast like Waston while we're stuck in our 8th season still searching for a rock solid CB. Given our history of failure in the CB position, the thought that we'd need to sign two bona fide starting CBs to have a legitimate backline to begin next season would make me incredibly anxious.

azorean
10-26-2014, 06:26 PM
Caldwell is getting up there in age but I vote we keep him for the simple fact that moving him means we need to acquire not one but two stud CBs. We have a decent chance of being able to land one good CB, good enough such that him and Caldwell paired together are a formidable duo. We know what we've got in Caldwell; with a good partner we'd be solid in the back. I have little faith in management's ability to hit the bullseye on two CBs. There's also value in backline familiarity and we know at least one of our backline players will start next year (Morrow), with others possibly staying with the team and playing a role, so that's a plus for keeping Caldwell too.

It's incredibly disheartening to see a team like Vancouver come back from Costa Rica with a beast like Waston while we're stuck in our 8th season still searching for a rock solid CB. Given our history of failure in the CB position, the thought that we'd need to sign two bona fide starting CBs to have a legitimate backline to begin next season would make me incredibly anxious.

I hear what you're saying about familiarity and all but at that price.No Thanks. There are players out there, you just have to look and scout well. Colombus came up with Gonzalez who they flipped for a profit to an Italian club. Kc found Colin. Sj finds Bernardez. We see Watson and what he is doing. These are all players that were all much cheaper options yet more effective than Caldwell. No cap and it wouldn't really matter, but having Caldwell make as much as he does makes no sense on this team. He isn't horrible but just overpaid IMO and I think we could do better.

Initial B
10-26-2014, 07:29 PM
The way I see it, a lot of these players should be moved to TFC's USL Pro team when they bring it on line next year. Use the upgraded Salary Cap ($4-5 million) to get better talent for the main team. But that assumes that TFC has the ability to recognize talent. So I think the main priority this off season is to put together the best Scouting Corps in all of MLS.

OgtheDim
10-26-2014, 07:34 PM
I asked Larson on Twitter if he thought TFC might use the buyout on Caldwell. He believes Caldwell is part of the plans for next season. :banghead:

Yohan
10-26-2014, 08:21 PM
I hear what you're saying about familiarity and all but at that price.No Thanks. There are players out there, you just have to look and scout well. Colombus came up with Gonzalez who they flipped for a profit to an Italian club. Kc found Colin. Sj finds Bernardez. We see Watson and what he is doing. These are all players that were all much cheaper options yet more effective than Caldwell. No cap and it wouldn't really matter, but having Caldwell make as much as he does makes no sense on this team. He isn't horrible but just overpaid IMO and I think we could do better.
Aurelien Collin's contract is up at the end of the season. He's looking for a huge raise. If TFC is willing to pay (likely approaching small DP money), he might be available. Will be 29 come March.

Pookie
10-26-2014, 09:31 PM
The way I see it, a lot of these players should be moved to TFC's USL Pro team when they bring it on line next year. Use the upgraded Salary Cap ($4-5 million) to get better talent for the main team. But that assumes that TFC has the ability to recognize talent. So I think the main priority this off season is to put together the best Scouting Corps in all of MLS.

Yes on scouting but no on moving the bulk of players to the USL.

Why?

Because you can't.

All contracts are held with the league. All of them. TFC can't bury contracts in the minors like the Leafs can. It's simply not a function of MLS.

Now, they can waive them. But the bulk of guys are on guaranteed money meaning TFC's budget (or cap as some call it) still takes the full hit.

MLS teams essentially choose players from the pool of contracts the league has. Which is why replacing Gordon or Plata or Eckersley or others is usually a lateral move.

The real key to improving the roster comes from the Discovery Signing route (Max 6) and the Draft. Scouting is key to doing both of those well.

Brooker
10-26-2014, 10:00 PM
I would rather have Ernest T Bass as manager than Vanney. If he's not gone next year it doesn't matter what the hell we do.

Yohan
10-26-2014, 10:02 PM
Yes on scouting but no on moving the bulk of players to the USL.

Why?

Because you can't.

All contracts are held with the league. All of them. TFC can't bury contracts in the minors like the Leafs can. It's simply not a function of MLS.

Now, they can waive them. But the bulk of guys are on guaranteed money meaning TFC's budget (or cap as some call it) still takes the full hit.

MLS teams essentially choose players from the pool of contracts the league has. Which is why replacing Gordon or Plata or Eckersley or others is usually a lateral move.

The real key to improving the roster comes from the Discovery Signing route (Max 6) and the Draft. Scouting is key to doing both of those well.
It doesn't matter for roster spots 21 to 30 that doesn't have a cap hit. LA has been moving players from MLS to USL squad and vice versa pretty much at will, almost like a NHL farm team system, at least when domestic transfer window is open.

tfcocd
10-26-2014, 10:16 PM
We'll have more turnover with a new manager than with Vanney. He's said so himself on several occasions. And the starters we have who aren't good enough to start ARE good enough for bench depth.

I think Ensco's right; I think MLSE reads this stuff and makes decisions based on the most panicky positions.

I saw improvement under Vanney in terms of offensive movement. I saw obvious issues of learning new tactics and positional responsibities; most caretakers who come in get the bounce because they were direct assistants to the guy fired and they don't change anything tactically; Vanney has switched us up considerably.

In terms of defense and defensive movement, we had more issues after Nelsen left, but again that's to be expected.

Book it right here: we will NOT see massive player turnover this year. We may see a few fringe players (Hall, DeRo) dropped because they rarely saw the pitch or contributed. But we won't see a mass exodus.

The next step after the failed 2 striker DP approach is to build the team around Bradley and add a proven attacking midfielder at least 4 years younger than Defoe. South American, with min 3 years success in a European league sounds like the appropriate target for an MLS team looking to break into the elite clubs of MLS.

If Gilberto doesn't pan out with Bradley and DP AM it will be season 10 where they have to top the bloody big deal with an 'a list' striker and buy another attendance bump in the 2/3 full 30000 seater.

tfcocd
10-27-2014, 12:12 AM
We won't see a mass exodus because with increase in the cap, we likely can afford to keep all the players Vanney wants. In previous years, the high cap hit players would have to be traded to make cap room for new players.
Plus bundles of allocation cash (and we get more again for sucking) means TFC has a lot of room to add for next season.

Its probably typical in mls to turnover 8-10 players in a 30 man roster.

The sign of a settled side would be seeing most of the turnover in the 12-30 position with a higher percentage in the 21-30 slots. For good clubs these players would be upgrades and create more competition to get into starting 11 and ensure less impact to the side when starters are injured or rested.

TFC is not a good side but the positive is less turnover required in the starting 11 than last season. Still likely need 5 upgrades and I suppose another building step would be to successfully upgrade 3 starting positions for season 9.

The depth outlined for CB is the blueprint for every area on the pitch. Each key role should have a high paid, experienced player with different levels of quality supporting as depth in that role. That is the type of roster you enhance with DPs through the spine of the team.

Pookie
10-27-2014, 06:39 AM
It doesn't matter for roster spots 21 to 30 that doesn't have a cap hit. LA has been moving players from MLS to USL squad and vice versa pretty much at will, almost like a NHL farm team system, at least when domestic transfer window is open.

Sure and those are good development opportunities for them.

But I don't think he is talking about roster spots 21-30. I believe his comment was directed at your Caldwells, Jacksons, etc.

Moving non budget, non playing players to the USL would have little impact on the 1-20 that comprise the first team.

portu
10-27-2014, 08:11 AM
If Jackson stays below the 180k mark I don't see why we don't keep him. He's at something like 120k IIRC.

Oso is good enough for this level and has played this type of system (4-3-3) before at youth level (u-12 - Nacional) and with SC Toronto. I know this for a fact because his ex-coach at SC Toronto and the guy who got him into Nacional and TFC Academy is my high school soccer coach (he has a UEFA B licence but has settled down because of family). Anyways Oso has a place on this roster at the 11/12 spots.

gdg_9
10-27-2014, 09:14 AM
Aurelien Collin's contract is up at the end of the season. He's looking for a huge raise. If TFC is willing to pay (likely approaching small DP money), he might be available. Will be 29 come March.

I'll admit I haven't seen Collin play a ton, but from what I saw last night against NYRB, he is not worth anywhere near small DP money.

Maybe it was just a bad game from him (as it seemed to be for most of KC), but the NYRB attack got through the KC defense at will.
The only reason the score wasn't MUCH worse is that every time NY got anywhere near or even in the box (which was alot), they were looking for BWP no matter what, trying desperately to get him his record breaking goal.

Canary10
10-27-2014, 09:16 AM
Collin and Caldwell would be a mean muthafuckn set of centre halves!

gdg_9
10-27-2014, 09:24 AM
Aurelien Collin's contract is up at the end of the season. He's looking for a huge raise. If TFC is willing to pay (likely approaching small DP money), he might be available. Will be 29 come March.


Collin and Caldwell would be a mean muthafuckn set of centre halves!

If you are going to spend almost the equivalent Cap hit of 2 DP's on your CB's, you can do ALOT better than Collin and Caldwell.
In this league, with a hard cap, that would be a disaster on our roster.

portu
10-27-2014, 09:33 AM
If you are going to spend almost the equivalent Cap hit of 2 DP's on your CB's, you can do ALOT better than Collin and Caldwell.
In this league, with a hard cap, that would be a disaster on our roster.

I don't think that we could do A LOT better but I do think that a pairing like that screams liability with a guy who seems to give reason for a red card every weekend and a guy hitting 35 next year.

gdg_9
10-27-2014, 09:40 AM
If we're going to throw DP level money at a CB, why not back that truck up for Edgar?

Oldtimer
10-27-2014, 09:58 AM
The real key to improving the roster comes from the Discovery Signing route (Max 6) and the Draft. Scouting is key to doing both of those well.

true. Don't forget the academies, as well. a good academy system can really help.

brad
10-27-2014, 10:03 AM
If we're going to throw DP level money at a CB, why not back that truck up for Edgar?

I like Edgar, but no way is he DP caliber. Should be aiming higher.

jloome
10-27-2014, 10:25 AM
I like Edgar, but no way is he DP caliber. Should be aiming higher.

For defenders we should be looking within the league first, as MLS seems to produce some good ones.

gdg_9
10-27-2014, 10:40 AM
Defoe back in the UK already... couldn't even be accountable and stick around for Wed's postmortem interviews.

Armen Bedakian ‏@ArmenBedakian (https://twitter.com/ArmenBedakian) 17m17 minutes ago (https://twitter.com/ArmenBedakian/status/526755709065887744) Defoe back in the UK? RT "@ExtensionsLeona (https://twitter.com/ExtensionsLeona): Look who I bumped into @IAmJermainDefoe (https://twitter.com/IAmJermainDefoe) at my local tesco "

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B089hYHIAAEFM4D.jpg

(https://twitter.com/ExtensionsLeona/status/526707359784394753/photo/1)

Canary10
10-27-2014, 10:48 AM
For defenders we should be looking within the league first, as MLS seems to produce some good ones.

Also should look at stockpiling some from this year's draft. The best chance of (quick) draft success usually comes from defenders and we are perpetually low on decent ones. Wouldn't hurt to have a stockpile. Excellent trade bait too.

Richard
10-27-2014, 11:38 AM
Lol at Defoe.

Canary10
10-27-2014, 12:13 PM
Just wanted to point out to anyone that remembers (and to the few people that took me up on it), that I won my bet: Urruti scored more goals than Gilberto (10 to 7). How Gilberto escapes peoples' wrath on here is beyond me. Way over paid for his production. We could have taken Chad Barrett if we wanted that level of production, and still have the DP slot for Laba. He doesn't have the killer instinct in front of goal, and he isn't a leader of the line. He's a second striker at best.

Canary10
10-27-2014, 12:14 PM
If you are going to spend almost the equivalent Cap hit of 2 DP's on your CB's, you can do ALOT better than Collin and Caldwell.
In this league, with a hard cap, that would be a disaster on our roster.

I'm not saying take Collin, just that I wouldn't want to meet that central defense pairing in a dark alley.

ag futbol
10-27-2014, 12:29 PM
Collin and Caldwell would be a mean muthafuckn set of centre halves!
Wouldn't be the right combo IMO. It's 2x the same player back there. We'd get abused by small quick forwards who pull into pockets of space. Wouldn't get much in terms of considerate positional play.

Forward play in this league is getting better and MLS cracked down heavily on muggings in the box. Defenders have to evolve from what they were in the past.

Caldwell had some atrociously bad games this year. I'm surprised everyone wants to overlook those so easily. We can do better.

Initial B
10-27-2014, 12:42 PM
It doesn't matter for roster spots 21 to 30 that doesn't have a cap hit. LA has been moving players from MLS to USL squad and vice versa pretty much at will, almost like a NHL farm team system, at least when domestic transfer window is open.
Yes, I was thinking more along the lines of our younger, cheaper players that fit in those slots, like Aparicio, Bloom, Hagglund, Weideman, Hamilton, Roberts, Becker, Lovitz, Morgan, Mannella and whatever draftees or prospects Bez manages to dig up in the off-season. Maybe even add DeRo on that team to provide veteran leadership/mentoring. I'm assuming Henry is gone and Oso is good enough to stay up. The remaining players that are starters (Oduro, Warner, Jackson) will be either traded, released, or shoved down into the 12-20 slots while TFC uses the increased cap space to get quality players from South/Central America and better MLS journeymen that are out of favour with other clubs. Removing Moore, Caldwell, and Defoe should leave about 6 international slots open - those slots should all be top starters, considered almost like DP slots. TB has to make those signings count.

MartinUtd
10-27-2014, 12:43 PM
Just wanted to point out to anyone that remembers (and to the few people that took me up on it), that I won my bet: Urruti scored more goals than Gilberto (10 to 7). How Gilberto escapes peoples' wrath on here is beyond me. Way over paid for his production. We could have taken Chad Barrett if we wanted that level of production, and still have the DP slot for Laba. He doesn't have the killer instinct in front of goal, and he isn't a leader of the line. He's a second striker at best.

People only remember that run of games where he justified his price tag. It was way more fun shitting on my editorialized thread title than owning up to the reality of the situation. What was the bet for, anyway?

Canary10
10-27-2014, 12:45 PM
People only remember that run of games where he justified his price tag. It was way more fun shitting on my editorialized thread title than owning up to the reality of the situation. What was the bet for, anyway?

I bet that Urruti would score more goals than Gilberto. And he did, 10 to Gilberto's 7.

Fort York Redcoat
10-27-2014, 12:47 PM
Just wanted to point out to anyone that remembers (and to the few people that took me up on it), that I won my bet: Urruti scored more goals than Gilberto (10 to 7). How Gilberto escapes peoples' wrath on here is beyond me. Way over paid for his production. We could have taken Chad Barrett if we wanted that level of production, and still have the DP slot for Laba. He doesn't have the killer instinct in front of goal, and he isn't a leader of the line. He's a second striker at best.

Escapes wrath? Like from anyone, right? You're asking why it isn't every single poster here not raging on him?


Because if you want to try and say that Giberto escaped wrath entirely this season have I got a forgotten thread for you, buddy.g:D

Canary10
10-27-2014, 12:50 PM
Escapes wrath? Like from anyone, right? You're asking why it isn't every single poster here not raging on him?


Because if you want to try and say that Giberto escaped wrath entirely this season have I got a forgotten thread for you, buddy.g:D

Ha ha. Touche.

Derko
10-27-2014, 12:52 PM
Yes, I was thinking more along the lines of our younger, cheaper players that fit in those slots, like Aparicio, Bloom, Hagglund, Weideman, Hamilton, Roberts, Becker, Lovitz, Morgan, Mannella and whatever draftees or prospects Bez manages to dig up in the off-season. Maybe even add DeRo on that team to provide veteran leadership/mentoring. I'm assuming Henry is gone and Oso is good enough to stay up. The remaining players that are starters (Oduro, Warner, Jackson) will be either traded, released, or shoved down into the 12-20 slots while TFC uses the increased cap space to get quality players from South/Central America and better MLS journeymen that are out of favour with other clubs. Removing Moore, Caldwell, and Defoe should leave about 6 international slots open - those slots should all be top starters, considered almost like DP slots. TB has to make those signings count.

That is asking an awful lot from an accountant, I don't think he has the football mind to evaluate good football talent, he can however work with the number. I don't really trust Tim B anymore. I really think he is just a numbers man. thoughts

Areathrasher
10-27-2014, 12:57 PM
I bet that Urruti would score more goals than Gilberto. And he did, 10 to Gilberto's 7.

I won the over under bet that was set at 5.

What do I win?

Canary10
10-27-2014, 01:04 PM
I won the over under bet that was set at 5.

What do I win?

Was that a real bet? Pints were the other bet, so why not...?

Initial B
10-27-2014, 01:11 PM
That is asking an awful lot from an accountant, I don't think he has the football mind to evaluate good football talent, he can however work with the number. I don't really trust Tim B anymore. I really think he is just a numbers man. thoughts
Well, there's one way we'll find out for sure - the Re-entry Draft is coming up in 7 weeks. It is crucial that Bez picks the best players available. Look at how well DC did last year, picking up Franklin and Boswell to completely revamp their backline and Espindola to provide goals. I'm curious to see if TB can work similar magic though being further down the table. If he pick players whose advanced stats seem like a steal, but then prove to be a cancer in the locker room, then we'll know Tim's just a numbers guy.

Areathrasher
10-27-2014, 01:20 PM
Was that a real bet? Pints were the other bet, so why not...?

Ah, i'm just messing around.

The guys that took under are quiet though :lol:

Red I
10-27-2014, 01:55 PM
If Bez is a stats man, he probably should take a look at the assist leader chart for the year... LD = 19, Valeri = 14, Keane = 14, Henry = 14, Martins = 13, J. Morales = 12, P. Morales = 12, B. Davis = 11, Maidana = 11, Sarvas = 11, Rosales = 11, Dempsey =10

He started the year saying that 2 DP strikers were essential for success - ummmmm, no. If neither can link all that well, you better have a creative element in your midfield

Phil
10-27-2014, 02:24 PM
[QUOTE=Initial B;1703222]That is asking an awful lot from an accountant, I don't think he has the football mind to evaluate good football talent, he can however work with the number. I don't really trust Tim B anymore. I really think he is just a numbers man. thoughts

I think Tim, like any GM should be working closely with the coaching staff to identify and get target players that fit their style. Nelsen did that and Tim used their networks to get their targets in under the cap. I think Vanney being assistant GM and now coach has a pretty good idea of what he wants and again (yes its a broken record with TFC) didn't get a window to properly get the players he needs to play his style. Now if they strolled along and said Vanney is not the guy, then I am fine, not sold on anything right now.

I do think we have a good core to build with. Some good talent to move for players that will fit our system, or retain to play what it is the team will be playing. From all I hear Nelsen was a good guy but out of his depth, couldn't hold the room, didn't adjust tactics and didn't scout teams. Its also clear that people with agendas were putting themselves ahead of the club, something that I can bet frustrated Tim B in the end.

ensco
10-27-2014, 07:46 PM
This is very interesting, the most constructive thread like this I have ever seen on these boards. Good, thoughtful discussion, and a pretty consistent view (only real discussion is on whether to keep Caldwell).

jloome
10-27-2014, 08:13 PM
[QUOTE=Initial B;1703222]
That is asking an awful lot from an accountant, I don't think he has the football mind to evaluate good football talent, he can however work with the number. I don't really trust Tim B anymore. I really think he is just a numbers man. thoughts

He played professionally and in college. EDIT: He was also in the U.S. Olympic team pool as a teenager.

I think Caldwell still has plenty in the tank. We can probably find someone to compete with him for a starting role. We certainly need at least one more experienced central defender.

notthesun
10-27-2014, 08:19 PM
Random thoughts about the shitshow that was this season. Probably going to be several random posts throughout next couple of weeks.

1. Michael Bradley

On the pitch and tactically, this ended up being TFC's biggest issue. Just where to play Michael Bradley and how? Both Nelsen and Bradley tried to figure this out, but didn't come up with good enough answer.

The biggest issue with Badly, errr... Bradley is that he thinks he's a combination of Messi and Busquets and tried to do everything at once. Ever notice how TFC played better through midfield if Bradley is not on the pitch? Far more organized with people knowing their roles better. Put Bradley in the pitch and the midfield plays like basketball. Pass the ball to Bradley like he's Kobe Bryant and just watch for things to happen and react to it. Passing the ball to Bradley means you're no longer responsible for the ball, and it's an easy way out. Frustrating.

Bradley has potential to be the best midfielder in MLS, but this season, he was far from being one. Not even close. Average at best. He can do a lot of things, but not all of them at once. So, Vanney needs to make a decision and pick a role for Bradley. Is he a box to box midfielder? Probably his best role. Or is he a DM with deep playmaking role, which seems to be Bradley's preferred role. Whichever one Vanney decides is the best use of Bradley, he needs to pick one for him, and more importantly, make Bradley stick with that role only. If he is playing B2B role, don't let him drop back too deep, because he won't be supporting the attackers if he's too deep. If he's playing DM, make him understand that he cannot allow the defence to get exposed on the counter, so he cannot venture too far up the pitch. Bradley needs to be more disciplined.

Bradley may be a high paid DP and he is a competitor who wants to win. But he needs to realize that he cannot carry the team alone, and he needs better understanding of his role within the team and not take on too much.

News today that Bradley is having another surgery to correct a nerve issue in his foot. Same issue that he had a procedure on shortly before leaving for the World Cup. Evidently he's been playing with whatever issue it is all season essentially. I really wonder if it limited his ability to cover ground on the pitch like he showed in the first 3-4 games.

MightyDM
10-27-2014, 10:33 PM
News today that Bradley is having another surgery to correct a nerve issue in his foot. Same issue that he had a procedure on shortly before leaving for the World Cup. Evidently he's been playing with whatever issue it is all season essentially. I really wonder if it limited his ability to cover ground on the pitch like he showed in the first 3-4 games.

his problem was covering too much ground, although perhaps some of his defensive lapses (NE game, for example) were due to this

notthesun
10-27-2014, 10:38 PM
his problem was covering too much ground, although perhaps some of his defensive lapses (NE game, for example) were due to this

Covering ground and trying to do everything are very different. Watch the opener vs. Seattle again to see the former. One of best MLS performances I've ever seen.

JuliquE
10-28-2014, 08:12 AM
Covering ground and trying to do everything are very different. Watch the opener vs. Seattle again to see the former. One of best MLS performances I've ever seen.
Yeh, he's just being overextended -- trying to do it all, and, in the end, sometimes doing nothing to any great affect. Needs a proper DM and AM, in particular, both to give him confidence to know he can pick his moments, more, and the team will be alright, as well as giving him better passing options/movement to work with, in exploiting his quality vision/read of the game.

Canary10
10-28-2014, 09:02 AM
I absolutely think Caldwell needs to be in this team next year. He has a ton of character and leadership. The team really flagged when he was out. We looked quite a bit better at the back with him. If we can find him a solid partner I think we'll be ok.

Also think it's nuts to talk about dumping Oduro. Against Montreal the team looked like it had gone to sleep until he came in. Out and out speed is a huge asset, and you can't teach it. The guy is the fastest player in the league. That's worth a lot. Remember the KC home game? He turned Seth Sinovic, who is a top MLS defender, into a pretzel so many times he eventually had to be red carded to stop him.

jloome
10-28-2014, 12:46 PM
I absolutely think Caldwell needs to be in this team next year. He has a ton of character and leadership. The team really flagged when he was out. We looked quite a bit better at the back with him. If we can find him a solid partner I think we'll be ok.

Also think it's nuts to talk about dumping Oduro. Against Montreal the team looked like it had gone to sleep until he came in. Out and out speed is a huge asset, and you can't teach it. The guy is the fastest player in the league. That's worth a lot. Remember the KC home game? He turned Seth Sinovic, who is a top MLS defender, into a pretzel so many times he eventually had to be red carded to stop him.

Agreed and agreed. That doesn't mean we don't need a wide player, as Lovitz isn't ready and Jackson isn't a starting winger, in my opinion. I'm not sure where you play him, to be honest. He does offer speed and strength and he's a great athlete in terms of reacting to avoid problems, but he doesn't have great technique or passing ability.

ag futbol
10-28-2014, 01:03 PM
Oduro is a headless chicken and at best a situational player rather than an every day starter. We need a winger who actually has a brain and can consistently provide service and can move off the ball. Our central mids might go on strike of they have to deal with Oduro's idiocy for another season. A simple triangle is beyond him.

Caldwell is getting older / expensive / not as good as others around the league who are counted on to do the same thing. I'd heavily think about it before committing.

jloome
10-28-2014, 04:43 PM
Oduro is a headless chicken and at best a situational player rather than an every day starter. We need a winger who actually has a brain and can consistently provide service and can move off the ball. Our central mids might go on strike of they have to deal with Oduro's idiocy for another season. A simple triangle is beyond him.

Caldwell is getting older / expensive / not as good as others around the league who are counted on to do the same thing. I'd heavily think about it before committing.

I agree Oduro makes poor decisions but he offers a lot in terms of penetrating the other end quickly and creating space, can score the odd goal, beats his defender. Yeah, he's not the ideal starter but he's a decent role player. I think you're overstating his inadequacy.

Areathrasher
10-28-2014, 04:46 PM
That is asking an awful lot from an accountant, I don't think he has the football mind to evaluate good football talent, he can however work with the number. I don't really trust Tim B anymore. I really think he is just a numbers man. thoughts

:lol: We really need to have a definitive stick to beat Bez with, is he just a lawyer or an accountant?

From Rollins piece today...


When it comes to the draft they did a lot right. Despite drafting at a spot where not much should have been expected, TFC managed to select a player in Nick Hagglund that actually had the most appearances of anyone drafted in the 2014 draft.

That's the potatoes of TFC's draft. The gravy was Daniel Lovitz. Simply put, the second round of the draft is next to useless. The median appearances of players drafted last year in the second round is actually zero (ave is 3.3). Lovitz had 17 appearances.

Lovitz was a useful player that added creativity and width off the bench. Hagglund looks like a guy that's going to be a replacement level MLS defender for the next 5-6 years. That's a home run in the context of a MLS draft in 2014. It's a grand slam home run from the 11th pick.

When you factor in that the draft was very much Tim Bezbatchenko's baby this past year -- Ryan Nelsen basically parachuted in at the combine after most of the work was done -- you have to have some hope that something useful can come out of Toronto's selections in next year's draft where they have four first round selections, including three in the first 11 picks.

Yohan
10-28-2014, 04:54 PM
:lol: We really need to have a definitive stick to beat Bez with, is he just a lawyer or an accountant?

From Rollins piece today...
It's one of few reasons to keep Bez. He's already done the homework on superdraft more or less. Put in a new guy, and he doesn't know the needs of the squad compared to what's available at the draft.

TFC can't afford to make a hash out of the next draft. TFC has to pick up at least 2 depth players who can make immediate contribution, with all 4 picks looking to make contributions in 2016

notthesun
10-28-2014, 05:56 PM
I would consider moving Oduro to a regular striker, ideally not a starter. Those 12 and 13 goal seasons didn't come when he was on the wing. He could fill in there when necessary but if he's playing up top he can use his speed to get in behind the back line, something he was rarely able to accomplish on the wing. If we sign a DP AM, he'll be getting a lot of through balls to run onto, and coming off the bench against tired defenders only makes him more threatening.

That's when he becomes a real weapon. See Moore's goal against Montreal when Bradley played a long through ball and Oduro took off, whoever was marking him was out of the play as soon as the ball was played because of Oduro's speed.

molenshtain
10-28-2014, 06:14 PM
That is asking an awful lot from an accountant, I don't think he has the football mind to evaluate good football talent, he can however work with the number. I don't really trust Tim B anymore. I really think he is just a numbers man. thoughts

he's won all four of his trades and drafted well.

jloome
10-28-2014, 06:17 PM
he's won all four of his trades and drafted well.

Much of the vitriol towards Bez seems to ignore that he's doing the "job" part of his job pretty well.

OgtheDim
10-28-2014, 06:40 PM
Laba was not replaced.

Unless he and Nelsen thought Bradley was a DM, that is on Bez.

Derko
10-28-2014, 07:43 PM
Much of the vitriol towards Bez seems to ignore that he's doing the "job" part of his job pretty well.

Don't get me wrong, he is doing his job as you put it 'Pretty Well' but I just think he should be the numbers guy who facilitates contracts within the salary cap, which is what he was brought in to do, not panic and fire the entire coaching staff when the team is in 3rd place, and having a losing streak. Better teams than TFC go through dry spells, but by god does the coaching staff get fired. And I am not saying Nelson would have kept TFC in a playoff position, but does it just appear to be the usual panic move, by an inexperienced GM. in my opinion. And I don't ignore that fact and take offence to your conjecture that some folks on here. don't look at things with an open and objective mind. I do respect your opinion and insight.

Yohan
10-28-2014, 07:53 PM
Don't get me wrong, he is doing his job as you put it 'Pretty Well' but I just think he should be the numbers guy who facilitates contracts within the salary cap, which is what he was brought in to do, not panic and fire the entire coaching staff when the team is in 3rd place, and having a losing streak. Better teams than TFC go through dry spells, but by god does the coaching staff get fired. And I am not saying Nelson would have kept TFC in a playoff position, but does it just appear to be the usual panic move, by an inexperienced GM. in my opinion. And I don't ignore that fact and take offence to your conjecture that some folks on here. don't look at things with an open and objective mind. I do respect your opinion and insight.
that's the thing. it wasn't a panic move. Bez planned to be the guy in charge for a long time. noticed that Bez pretty much had the new coaching staff on standby the entire time, by hiding them in TFC academy?

jloome
10-28-2014, 08:56 PM
that's the thing. it wasn't a panic move. Bez planned to be the guy in charge for a long time. noticed that Bez pretty much had the new coaching staff on standby the entire time, by hiding them in TFC academy?

It's true. He had the performance coach hired in March but he was never introduced publicly.

molenshtain
10-28-2014, 09:13 PM
And it wasn't just a panic at a poor run of form. It was firing a coach who had completely lost the plot and had numerous key players disillusioned with his training regiments, among other things.

Yohan
10-28-2014, 11:38 PM
4. Right wing wrong way

One of criticism of Nelsen is that he built the team to play only one way, which was counter utilizing pace. Hence why TFC has Jackson and Oduro. Both have good pace, but very little footy IQ. Oduro has some finishing. Jackson has better technical ability, but inconsistent. Jackson also has defensive work rate, but Oduro has better temperament. Both can play more than 1 position.

Oduro had base salary of 250k, while Jackson is at 150k. So, both should be about starters in any MLS club, but they have been inconsistent throughout their careers. So the question is, is it individual fault, or is the manager not using them correctly? Jackson had a 4 goal, 7 assist season in 2012, while Oduro had a 13 goal 4 assist season in 2013. So both of them are capable of putting up good stats. But are they worth keeping?

In MLS, you'll never get the perfect player. The manager that can fit a player into his system within the cap is going to be successful. You'll never get perfect player, but you'll have to make do in a lot of cases. I think both players can fit within Vanney's system.

If Vanney plays 4-3-3, Jackson is a fit at right wing. He'll never be the smartest footballer and he's always one red mist away from a red card, but he'll work his ass off and track back on defence, which is critical for a winger in a 4-3-3. He can cross and he does have that Brazilian magic to beat a defender 1v1, both not consistently, but you make do. He'd fit well in SKC's high press 4-3-3 actually. Keep his assignment simple and you'll get use out of Jackson. Once you expect too much out of Jackson, that's when his game goes haywire.

Oduro is a striker, not a winger. Because he has no crossing ability, he can't keep a defender honest. On wing, a defender will stand off, negating Oduro's pace and dare him to cross. That makes him useless. Oduro needs space to run and he's the threat when he has a throughball or a lob to run onto, while he's playing off the last defender. It's more effective if you have an AM who knows what he's doing. Having Oduro up front means the opposition defence can't play a high line for the fear of getting caught too far up the pitch. This creates room for the midfield to pass the ball around. Play him as a CF and to his strength, especially as 2nd half sub keeps opposition defence off balance esp when fatigued.

By no means I'm saying keep Oduro and Jackson at all cost. If a fair trade comes along, sure, trade one or both of them. But both still has uses. TFC just has to play these guys to their strengths, and I think they can work under Vanney's system.

Hamilton_Red
10-29-2014, 12:21 AM
News today that Bradley is having another surgery to correct a nerve issue in his foot. Same issue that he had a procedure on shortly before leaving for the World Cup. Evidently he's been playing with whatever issue it is all season essentially. I really wonder if it limited his ability to cover ground on the pitch like he showed in the first 3-4 games.

yes there was a distinct drop in his form due to the injury. He was dominant in those early games ...he was playing inured at the WC...and never fully recovered when he returned. This rest and surgery could be very good for him and we will have him back to his best in March.

Kaz
10-29-2014, 12:32 AM
This season can be stated one way.. Michael Bradley... if we hadn't picked up Bradley we'd be in the playoffs. We didn't know how to use him, we didn't have the players to use him, he is a great players but not the right player.

Part two. We Signed Gilberto but then Signed Defoe... that is another situation where we signed the wrong player to go with the players we already had. If we had signed a Strong Attacking Mid DP, and a decent MLS forward Nelsen would likely still have a job.

OgtheDim
10-29-2014, 06:35 AM
Nelsen didn't believe in an AM. He thought Gilberto and Defoe would make a good tandem.

As for being in the playoffs without Bradley, maybe a midfield of Laba and Osorio would have gotten us there - but I doubt it.

I'd rather have Bradley then Laba - Bradley you can build a team around. Laba is a great player, and a DM is a must. But he's not as impactful as Bradley.

Derko
10-29-2014, 08:03 AM
And it wasn't just a panic at a poor run of form. It was firing a coach who had completely lost the plot and had numerous key players disillusioned with his training regiments, among other things.

Agreed, but that was the perception, in my eyes anyway, and you know how much power perception can have.

michaeltfc91
10-29-2014, 08:38 AM
Defenders: Bloom was good until he had his baby, I don't know why, but he must have lost a lot of sleep. Creavalle looked alright. If Bloom returns to pre-world cup form our right backs are fine. Caldwell is needed at least for one more year. Henry and Hagglund better stay as they will be great for the next 15 years. We need one more center back behind them in case Caldwell is injured. Finally, Morrow and Morgan as our left backs nothing wrong with that.

Center Mids: We are wayyyy too one dimensional. Give the ball to Bradley and run away from him. We looked better without Bradley, but that is because we played as a team without him. When he got back after the World Cup, we relied on him. Literally give the ball to him no matter how much pressure he is under and your job is done. We made him look wayyyyy worse than he actually is and put him under a lot of pressure. That is because no one cares that colin warner or kyle bekker is standing beside Michael Bradley. Put Osorio there. It worked in the beginning of the season I don't understand why we didn't leave it like that.

Wingers: Our wingers stunk. How many times did a winger cross a ball from open play and our striker headered the ball not even in the net, but on target? 0. Oduro is all speed, no talent, please leave. Jackson is okay, can chip in a few goals and is an okay defender with mls experience. If he is one winger, we need another on the other side such as Brad Davis that will whip in balls all day. Can't play with 2 wingers that are all speed, no crossing. Lovitz is a nice backup, I disliked him a little, but he has potential he's fine

Strikers: Defoe, get out. Gilberto is a stud and will score a bucket of goals next year with a smile on his face. Moore is good enough to play beside him, maybe add one more decent striker if Dike doesn't work out. Wiedeman and De Ro are the 4th and 5th strikers, that's fine

We don't need to revamp the roster. That is the last thing we need. Get rid of Defoe, Oduro, Orr and that's pretty much it. If Dike goes, fine or Bekker whatever but we better not see 10 new guys on the field

Finally: Why is Kansas City giving hometown boy Matt Besler DP Money and we are dying to sell our stud hometown CB Doneil Henry? GTFO the man is going to be Canada's captain, he should be on our team from age 16 until he retires.



The season had some positives, there were a lot of great memories including the season opener at Shoeless, the comeback vs. Columbus and the amazing time I had in Montreal.

However, next year will have greater memories.... We will start off well, the fanbase will be back and we won't cruise into the playoffs, we will cruise into the top 5 places of MLS and make the semi finals at least while winning the Canadian Championship.

FRANKIE65
10-29-2014, 09:38 AM
[QUOTE=michaeltfc91;170344816

The season had some positives, there were a lot of great memories including the season opener at Shoeless, the comeback vs. Columbus and the amazing time I had in Montreal.

However, next year will have greater memories.... We will start off well, the fanbase will be back and we won't cruise into the playoffs, we will cruise into the top 5 places of MLS and make the semi finals at least while winning the Canadian Championship.[/QUOTE]


Another positive was the comeback against Portland. The place was jumping, the team was fired up, Bradley was a madman!

Nice to see the optimism, hope you're right.

Kaz
10-29-2014, 10:17 AM
Did he though? he seldom played the two late, was it someone else the believed it and he just towed the line?

Laba could have played a decent DM roll with a DP AM upfront with two forwards that compliment each other, (not who get in each others way) we might have. We played better without Bradley... Not because Bradley was a bad player but because we constantly just gave the ball to Bradley. Then when he had the first surgery he wasn't really as capable though still very good.

We had a hard time getting the ball into the box this year. We didn't have the offensive tools we needed. Worse we traded offensive tools for defensive one.


Honestly Gilberto, Moore, DP AM/Osorio and Laba/Strong MLS DM and a coach that new how to use them could have performed very well... it would have avoided the Bloody Big Deal crap and we'd all be less angry.

At the beginning of the year I said it was a Laba vs Gilberto issue, it was a Laba vs Bradley because it was Bradley's in the same position that forced him out. In the End because our coach and players didn't now what to do with him, Laba likely would have been better. Heck even with Defoe, Laba would have been better. I think given the staff we had, Bradley was the mistake. (By no means do I think he is a bad player, I just think he would have been better served with a different mentality of the coaching staff other then... give the ball to the DP.. and hope he can get it to a forward.


We had other problems.. way too many injuries for example and as good and not enough experience at the back. And apparently a player owned by a Cyprus team but is still playing here... (what is the point of selling a players rights to a club that doesn't want him.) I have to wonder if Payne was a better man for the job. Tim B, still looks like Liz Lemon's agent to me (30 Rock) and has seen moneyball too many times.

gdg_9
10-29-2014, 12:22 PM
A lot of talk about Oduro. Here's my take...

There is only one factor that should determine whether Oduro is kept, and that is the salary cap (or "budget") in the new CBA.

Oduro has speed to burn, but his technical ability on the ball and soccer IQ off of it are pretty bad.
He's just not good enough to be a starter on a successful good team.
Ask yourself, if we traded Oduro to most of the teams in the playoffs, would he start for them?
I would say the answer for the majority of the teams would be "no".

That being said, he can still play an effective role in this league.
The role he is most suited for is as a 2nd half sub, brought on to use his speed to run at and to get behind tired defenders.

The problem with this is that Oduro is being paid $250k.
Under the current cap, you simply can't afford to devote that much of your budget to a bench player.

Now, if the new CBA results in a much higher cap, where Oduro's salary can be better justified for a bench player, great! Keep him.
Otherwise I think TFC should be looking to replace him as depth with a cheaper alternative, and use the freed up budget to bring in a better upgrade on the wing.

Yohan
10-29-2014, 12:31 PM
A lot of talk about Oduro. Here's my take...

There is only one factor that should determine whether Oduro is kept, and that is the salary cap (or "budget") in the new CBA.

Oduro has speed to burn, but his technical ability on the ball and soccer IQ off of it are pretty bad.
He's just not good enough to be a starter on a successful good team.
Ask yourself, if we traded Oduro to most of the teams in the playoffs, would he start for them?
I would say the answer for the majority of the teams would be "no".

That being said, he can still play an effective role in this league.
The role he is most suited for is as a 2nd half sub, brought on to use his speed to run at and to get behind tired defenders.

The problem with this is that Oduro is being paid $250k.
Under the current cap, you simply can't afford to devote that much of your budget to a bench player.

Now, if the new CBA results in a much higher cap, where Oduro's salary can be better justified for a bench player, great! Keep him.
Otherwise I think TFC should be looking to replace him as depth with a cheaper alternative, and use the freed up budget to bring in a better upgrade on the wing.
He scored 12 goals in 2011 and 13 goals in 2013. So he's not a total thud.
Some players fit better on some teams than another. (see career of Kenny Cooper) It also helps if TFC plays Oduro on his natural position, which is CF. If you get 12-13 goals every season out of a 250k, that's a money well spent. He's not a winger.

I'm not advocating Oduro should be the starting striker, but you do need better context of a player's career prior to arriving at TFC to understand what a player offers.

gdg_9
10-29-2014, 12:45 PM
He scored 12 goals in 2011 and 13 goals in 2013. So he's not a total thud.
Some players fit better on some teams than another. (see career of Kenny Cooper) It also helps if TFC plays Oduro on his natural position, which is CF. If you get 12-13 goals every season out of a 250k, that's a money well spent. He's not a winger.

I'm not advocating Oduro should be the starting striker, but you do need better context of a player's career prior to arriving at TFC to understand what a player offers.

He's also turning 30 this year and will soon start to regress, while MLS continues to get better, especially in terms of technical skill.

I don't think our opinion's are really all that different.
He's not good enough to be a starter going forward on a contending team (which is what we should be striving to be).
And under the current CBA, he's paid too much NOT to be a starter.

Like I said, if the new CBA results in his salary making more sense in a sub role, then I'm all for keeping him as a late game, injection of speed substitute.

Yohan
10-29-2014, 12:59 PM
He's also turning 30 this year and will soon start to regress, while MLS continues to get better, especially in terms of technical skill.

I don't think our opinion's are really all that different.
He's not good enough to be a starter going forward on a contending team (which is what we should be striving to be).
And under the current CBA, he's paid too much NOT to be a starter.

Like I said, if the new CBA results in his salary making more sense in a sub role, then I'm all for keeping him as a late game, injection of speed substitute.
He's 30, but he's leaps and bounds faster than most players in MLS. his pace should be good till 32-33. I think he'd be a start for a lot of teams in MLS, a team that can play to his strength. Hell, if Bradley Wright-Phillips can bag 27 playing for NY, I don't see why Oduro can't get at least 20 if he had Thierry Henry feeding him the balls and I don't think BWP is that much better than Oduro.

speckles
10-29-2014, 02:38 PM
:lol: We really need to have a definitive stick to beat Bez with, is he just a lawyer or an accountant?

From Rollins piece today...

I know someone who there that has suggested an entirely different picture on the draft pick process...what really is the truth. Think management is on a major PR campaign to save their butts

Areathrasher
10-29-2014, 02:49 PM
I know someone who there that has suggested an entirely different picture on the draft pick process...what really is the truth. Think management is on a major PR campaign to save their butts

Do tell...

ironcub14
10-29-2014, 04:20 PM
Really enjoying Yohan's and other's takes on some of the players in this thread. I agree generally with the issues raised here, with players needed at CB (we need 1 or 2 more), CM/DM (we need a new partner for Bradley, whether that be Osorio or a new player), wings (Jackson's mediocre, Lovitz is alright, Oduro is a headless chicken who should perhaps be moved to play as a 2nd choice striker or transferred out).

I'd like to quickly ask about midfield, as teams will need good CBs and wings in most of the standard formations anyways. What formation would you like to see for TFC in 2015 under Vanney? Yohan talked about the incompatibility of TFC in a 4-3-3 in the 2nd post (agreed). And I really did not enjoy the 4-4-2 this season, which I thought was designed specifically only because we had 2 DP strikers and much turnover and no other reason, and did not work out as hoped in the end.

ironcub14
10-29-2014, 04:21 PM
I've seen a lot of people calling for a DP #10 to be signed, and I am wondering if these people would like to see a 4-2-3-1 for 2015. I think that's a really good standard formation that should be adopted over the 4-4-2 whenever possible, and it could give a specific midfield role for Bradley as a deep-lying playmaker in one of the two holding mids, while employing a destroyer next to him and a #10 in front who can float outside the penalty area when we are attacking deep in opposing territory. We may have to bring in the destroyer and the #10, but I would also like to see Osorio given a shot at #10. I personally think we could use a DP at wing (or even CB) instead of at #10 at this point.

As for wingers, I am more in favour of putting lefties on the right flank, and putting righties on the left flank, for them to cut in-field and exchange quick passes with the striker and the mids, instead of just crossing from the touchline and praying all game long. I'd love to see what Lovitz could do from the right flank, and with a dynamic right-footed winger cutting in from the left flank. Seeing the usually poor crosses from the right flank from the right boot of Oduro and Jackson was pretty frustrating.

speckles
10-29-2014, 05:44 PM
Do tell...

I was told it was a team effort however Nelson made the final calls at that time, part of the ongoing friction with Bez, Nelson wanted Haglund early on and trained with him as a pet project with the other defenders at practice.. The defenders in the team were especially upset losing him as a coach.

Part of the problem was the power shifted during the season to Bez. who disagreed with some of the players Nelson wanted to bring in. Some players fall into each other mans selections, team was split before the firing. Suggestions that Nelson was too close to both parties in some of the deals...created distrust...if you get what I mean without suggesting something without proof.

Areathrasher
10-29-2014, 05:52 PM
I was told it was a team effort however Nelson made the final calls at that time, part of the ongoing friction with Bez, Nelson wanted Haglund early on and trained with him as a pet project with the other defenders at practice.. The defenders in the team were especially upset losing him as a coach.

Part of the problem was the power shifted during the season to Bez. who disagreed with some of the players Nelson wanted to bring in. Some players fall into each other mans selections, team was split before the firing. Suggestions that Nelson was too close to both parties in some of the deals...created distrust...if you get what I mean without suggesting something without proof.

Thanks for sharing.

One data point that leads me to lean more to Rollins account was that Bez was the one scouting at the Las Vegas combine prior to the league run one before the draft. Although, I can totally see Nelesn trying to take over things at the draft and wanting Hagglund.

Yohan
10-29-2014, 11:44 PM
5. It's Better to Have a Good Playmaker than a Good Striker

Let's first clear this up. most playmaker in MLS play central attacking midfielder role, but this is not the case all the time. You can be a playmaker from from any position in midfield or even as a striker. Generally a CAM ends up being a playmaker because he can dictate the match more easily from centre of the pitch. But you can be a playmaker from the wing a la Landon Donovan, from more deep, second striker role like Thierry Henry or deep lying CM/DM a la Patrice Bernier.

In this case what I mean by a playmaker is a player who is the focus of the attack, who dictates the tempo on offence and who has the technical ability to pass the ball to create quality goal scoring chances. They aren't always clearly defined, because every team plays football differently, but you can usually tell who the guy who takes charge when on attack. In Toronto, it's Bradley, and not the best choice for a playmaker giving his attributes.

Pretty much every team in MLS utilizes some sort of playmaker, and these guys tend to be one of best players on the team due to their footy IQ and technical skills. A good striker will put away most of the chances he gets, but a good playmaker will get multiple players quality chances to score. Ideally you want someone who can create chances and a striker who can put them away, but if I had to pick one, I'd take a good playmaker over a good striker.

Here's why. Good playmaker makes good teammates great and shitty teammates ok on attack. Take Thierry Henry. You can't deny his quality. But through his playmaking skills, he turns his strike partner into amazing MLS players. (and when they go somewhere else, they suck) Example. Kenny Cooper scored 18 goals when playing with Henry. Bradley Freaking Wright-Phillips bagged 27 and he really should have had like 40 and that's not an exaggeration. Even Luke Rodgers, who bagged 9 in 23 playing with Henry. He now plays in English Conference and he can't score for shit.

It's nice to have a clinical finisher like Defoe, who can put away the few chances he gets. But one of issues with Nelsen is that because TFC played primarily on the counter, few quality chances were created. If you create more quality chances, eventually more of them will go in. It also means if you have the ball, then the opponent isn't attacking you. Having possession means nothing if you don't know what to do with the ball, but having a playmaker means there is at least one guy who knows what to do with the ball.

Here's an interesting stat. In 2014 season, 5 out of 10 top goal scorers were not DPs, with 4 out of 6 not being DPs. But 9 out of 11 top assist getters are DPs (Sarvas and Rosales tied for 10th) and 7 out of top 7 are DPs. Here's another interesting fact. Only twice the top 2 goal scorers in a regular season has been a DP (Donovan and Juan Pablo Angel) and since 2009 season, all top 2 scorers have been non DPs. A player may get rewarded with a DP contract later, but top 2 has not been a DP since 09.

What does that mean? It means you can find a good MLS striker without using a DP spot. A lot of factors do have to come together to be the Golden Boot winner, but Wondo and BWP put away 27 and they aren't DPs. Wondo is a bit of freak, and he didn't have service of a playmaker with SJ, but BWP benefitted from playing with Henry, or else he'd have never come close to 27 goals. Just to blow someone's mind, TFC gave away the Golden Boot winner twice, Jeff Cunningham in 09 and De Rosario in 2011.

My point? Given enough chances, even half decent striker can put up double digit numbers in MLS. So, go get us a good playmaker, TFC!

JuliquE
10-30-2014, 12:05 AM
5. It's Better to Have a Good Playmaker than a Good Striker

Let's first clear this up. most playmaker in MLS play central attacking midfielder role, but this is not the case all the time. You can be a playmaker from from any position in midfield or even as a striker. Generally a CAM ends up being a playmaker because he can dictate the match more easily from centre of the pitch. But you can be a playmaker from the wing a la Landon Donovan, from more deep, second striker role like Thierry Henry or deep lying CM/DM a la Patrice Bernier.

In this case what I mean by a playmaker is a player who is the focus of the attack, who dictates the tempo on offence and who has the technical ability to pass the ball to create quality goal scoring chances. They aren't always clearly defined, because every team plays football differently, but you can usually tell who the guy who takes charge when on attack. In Toronto, it's Bradley, and not the best choice for a playmaker giving his attributes.

Pretty much every team in MLS utilizes some sort of playmaker, and these guys tend to be one of best players on the team due to their footy IQ and technical skills. A good striker will put away most of the chances he gets, but a good playmaker will get multiple players quality chances to score. Ideally you want someone who can create chances and a striker who can put them away, but if I had to pick one, I'd take a good playmaker over a good striker.

Here's why. Good playmaker makes good teammates great and shitty teammates ok on attack. Take Thierry Henry. You can't deny his quality. But through his playmaking skills, he turns his strike partner into amazing MLS players. (and when they go somewhere else, they suck) Example. Kenny Cooper scored 18 goals when playing with Henry. Bradley Freaking Wright-Phillips bagged 27 and he really should have had like 40 and that's not an exaggeration. Even Luke Rodgers, who bagged 9 in 23 playing with Henry. He now plays in English Conference and he can't score for shit.

It's nice to have a clinical finisher like Defoe, who can put away the few chances he gets. But one of issues with Nelsen is that because TFC played primarily on the counter, few quality chances were created. If you create more quality chances, eventually more of them will go in. It also means if you have the ball, then the opponent isn't attacking you. Having possession means nothing if you don't know what to do with the ball, but having a playmaker means there is at least one guy who knows what to do with the ball.

Here's an interesting stat. In 2014 season, 5 out of 10 top goal scorers were not DPs, with 4 out of 6 not being DPs. But 9 out of 11 top assist getters are DPs (Sarvas and Rosales tied for 10th) and 7 out of top 7 are DPs. Here's another interesting fact. Only twice the top 2 goal scorers in a regular season has been a DP (Donovan and Juan Pablo Angel) and since 2009 season, all top 2 scorers have been non DPs. A player may get rewarded with a DP contract later, but top 2 has not been a DP since 09.

What does that mean? It means you can find a good MLS striker without using a DP spot. A lot of factors do have to come together to be the Golden Boot winner, but Wondo and BWP put away 27 and they aren't DPs. Wondo is a bit of freak, and he didn't have service of a playmaker with SJ, but BWP benefitted from playing with Henry, or else he'd have never come close to 27 goals. Just to blow someone's mind, TFC gave away the Golden Boot winner twice, Jeff Cunningham in 09 and De Rosario in 2011.

My point? Given enough chances, even half decent striker can put up double digit numbers in MLS. So, go get us a good playmaker, TFC!
Amen.

Gilberto alluded to it being a bit difficult, without having a proper AM feeding him; was very gracious for the efforts of his team-mates, and owned up to missing some chances.. but, conceded, as the reporter was suggesting, that an AM is sorely missed.

Hamilton_Red
10-30-2014, 12:36 AM
He scored 12 goals in 2011 and 13 goals in 2013. So he's not a total thud.
Some players fit better on some teams than another. ....

Problem for TFC is that all the players that we sign fit better into other teams!

Hamilton_Red
10-30-2014, 12:42 AM
Amen.

Gilberto alluded to it being a bit difficult, without having a proper AM feeding him; was very gracious for the efforts of his team-mates, and owned up to missing some chances.. but, conceded, as the reporter was suggesting, that an AM is sorely missed.

Yep - Vancouver just made the play-offs without a striker of any great merit. All other aspects of the team were working. In-fact they don't really have a DP (yes technically Laba and Morales are...but they are not real DP's) . While not essential though..I can't help think that a top class striker was the difference between Vancouver making the play-offs and contending for the championship. They are only a player or two away & Robinson is only going to get better as a coach. I could see that team going far on CONCACAF next season.

Yohan
10-30-2014, 12:58 AM
Yep - Vancouver just made the play-offs without a striker of any great merit. All other aspects of the team were working. In-fact they don't really have a DP (yes technically Laba and Morales are...but they are not real DP's) . While not essential though..I can't help think that a top class striker was the difference between Vancouver making the play-offs and contending for the championship. They are only a player or two away & Robinson is only going to get better as a coach. I could see that team going far on CONCACAF next season.
what the heck is a 'real DP'? lol

notthesun
10-30-2014, 02:02 AM
In-fact they don't really have a DP (yes technically Laba and Morales are...but they are not real DP's).

In that case I'll happily take a fake DP in place of Defoe.

JuliquE
10-30-2014, 07:17 AM
what the heck is a 'real DP'? lol
I thought he just meant that the two would be considered young DP's, versus real/normal DP's.

I can see what he means, in that players like that you can SOMETIMES sneak in on a normal contract (think Laba's contract is, as you probably know, circa $200k, with his transfer fee categorizing him as a young DP for one more year, if I'm not mistaken). So, I took it to mean that Hamilton_Red was suggesting these guys aren't really your mega-bucks super-stars, in the way we might be looking to fill the DP roles, in support of his point (and similar to the one you were making, earlier, in your 5. post), being an AM is just THAT important, that it got them over the line, despite him not being a big name.

Areathrasher
10-30-2014, 08:07 AM
How the hell is Morales not a "real" DP?

They paid a transfer fee for him and he earns $1.4m a year!!!

Thats just crazy talk.

JuliquE
10-30-2014, 08:39 AM
How the hell is Morales not a "real" DP?

They paid a transfer fee for him and he earns $1.4m a year!!!

Thats just crazy talk.
Again, I think that, in the case of Morales in particular, Hamilton_Red is meaning he's not a house-hold name. With Laba, it's both not being a house-hold name, nor being a mega-bucks signing, with respect to what you might generally associate with the DP tag.

Let's not get too far off track, here, guys, and blow this out of proportion. I feel like he was just making a case that an AM is THAT important, to get you over the line, that you might not even have to back up a Brinks truck for one that would have a huge impact and make a world of difference. I happen to think that's a great point, and hope that remains the focus, here.

Areathrasher
10-30-2014, 08:50 AM
Yea, they don't have a high profile with casual fans but when they are regarded by MLS commentators as two of the best players in the league and are DPs by the literal definition to call them "not real DPs" is just plain wrong.

I'll leave it at that.

ag futbol
10-30-2014, 10:06 AM
Yep - Vancouver just made the play-offs without a striker of any great merit. All other aspects of the team were working. In-fact they don't really have a DP (yes technically Laba and Morales are...but they are not real DP's) . While not essential though..I can't help think that a top class striker was the difference between Vancouver making the play-offs and contending for the championship. They are only a player or two away & Robinson is only going to get better as a coach. I could see that team going far on CONCACAF next season.
Yep. When push comes to shove they still badly need a quality striker. With that they go from bottom of playoffs to solidly in IMO.

But point taken, they used an AM - two if you count Rosales who played centrally last night and did well, an incredibly ballsy move by robo to drop Morales on a bad day - and did well without any quality up top.

Yohan
10-30-2014, 10:38 AM
Yep. When push comes to shove they still badly need a quality striker. With that they go from bottom of playoffs to solidly in IMO.

But point taken, they used an AM - two if you count Rosales who played centrally last night and did well, an incredibly ballsy move by robo to drop Morales on a bad day - and did well without any quality up top.
That was ballsy, but Morales was gassed out and not playing well all game.

Vancouver needed one half decent striker and he would have scored like 15. Hell, Kenny Miller would have bagged 15 with service Morales and Rosales were providing.

jloome
10-30-2014, 10:57 AM
... and I don't think BWP is that much better than Oduro.

geez man, I like Oduro, but this is way off. BWP is a league ahead as a finisher. NY moved him centrally, which he rarely got a chance at in England due to his stature and speed. But miles better finisher than Oduro. Miles. He's great finisher. His smarts in other areas might be called to question and most of his goals WERE from being played into space; but his positioning is great and his touch is superb, way above the average or even a good MLS striker.

JuliquE
10-30-2014, 11:05 AM
Yea, they don't have a high profile with casual fans but when they are regarded by MLS commentators as two of the best players in the league and are DPs by the literal definition to call them "not real DPs" is just plain wrong.

I'll leave it at that.
"Wrong" might be a bit of a stretch, but I concur. Generically, however, when people think of a DP, they think name recognition, as well as quality; the reality of the DP's brought into the league is that's more the exception, than the rule.

Having said that, I was only looking to highlight the SPIRIT of Hamilton_Red's post; the term "real" might have just been for want of a better word or a bit lazy, with him not caring to get into detail with exactly the kind of DP he is. From the context of his post, it's clear he actually LIKES Morales, and is suggesting that we could learn a thing or two from Vancouver (i.e. acquiring our own Morales type, a la Gilberto).

So, it was just a bit odd to see a number of posts focusing on the semantics of his choice wording; he meant well, lads.

ag futbol
10-30-2014, 11:36 AM
That was ballsy, but Morales was gassed out and not playing well all game.

Vancouver needed one half decent striker and he would have scored like 15. Hell, Kenny Miller would have bagged 15 with service Morales and Rosales were providing.
No arguments here. I thought it was a great move by Robo and not an easy one to make.

MightyDM
10-30-2014, 06:59 PM
Covering ground and trying to do everything are very different. Watch the opener vs. Seattle again to see the former. One of best MLS performances I've ever seen.
late to reply, but I made that comment to my brother during that game - "he (Bradley) tries to do too much." Terrific player, but needs a coach.

MightyDM
10-30-2014, 07:30 PM
Don't get me wrong, he is doing his job as you put it 'Pretty Well' but I just think he should be the numbers guy who facilitates contracts within the salary cap, which is what he was brought in to do, not panic and fire the entire coaching staff when the team is in 3rd place, and having a losing streak. Better teams than TFC go through dry spells, but by god does the coaching staff get fired. And I am not saying Nelson would have kept TFC in a playoff position, but does it just appear to be the usual panic move, by an inexperienced GM. in my opinion. And I don't ignore that fact and take offence to your conjecture that some folks on here. don't look at things with an open and objective mind. I do respect your opinion and insight.

see Pardew, Alan, Newcastle United, for a recent example.

MightyDM
10-30-2014, 07:32 PM
And it wasn't just a panic at a poor run of form. It was firing a coach who had completely lost the plot and had numerous key players disillusioned with his training regiments, among other things.


Sorry but but there is no public evidence of this. Other than the team being in third place. Only gossip, and there is also gossip that says he was out with players after being fired etc etc.

MightyDM
10-30-2014, 07:54 PM
4. Right wing wrong way

One of criticism of Nelsen is that he built the team to play only one way, which was counter utilizing pace. Hence why TFC has Jackson and Oduro. Both have good pace, but very little footy IQ. Oduro has some finishing. Jackson has better technical ability, but inconsistent. Jackson also has defensive work rate, but Oduro has better temperament. Both can play more than 1 position.

Oduro had base salary of 250k, while Jackson is at 150k. So, both should be about starters in any MLS club, but they have been inconsistent throughout their careers. So the question is, is it individual fault, or is the manager not using them correctly? Jackson had a 4 goal, 7 assist season in 2012, while Oduro had a 13 goal 4 assist season in 2013. So both of them are capable of putting up good stats. But are they worth keeping?

In MLS, you'll never get the perfect player. The manager that can fit a player into his system within the cap is going to be successful. You'll never get perfect player, but you'll have to make do in a lot of cases. I think both players can fit within Vanney's system.

If Vanney plays 4-3-3, Jackson is a fit at right wing. He'll never be the smartest footballer and he's always one red mist away from a red card, but he'll work his ass off and track back on defence, which is critical for a winger in a 4-3-3. He can cross and he does have that Brazilian magic to beat a defender 1v1, both not consistently, but you make do. He'd fit well in SKC's high press 4-3-3 actually. Keep his assignment simple and you'll get use out of Jackson. Once you expect too much out of Jackson, that's when his game goes haywire.

Oduro is a striker, not a winger. Because he has no crossing ability, he can't keep a defender honest. On wing, a defender will stand off, negating Oduro's pace and dare him to cross. That makes him useless. Oduro needs space to run and he's the threat when he has a throughball or a lob to run onto, while he's playing off the last defender. It's more effective if you have an AM who knows what he's doing. Having Oduro up front means the opposition defence can't play a high line for the fear of getting caught too far up the pitch. This creates room for the midfield to pass the ball around. Play him as a CF and to his strength, especially as 2nd half sub keeps opposition defence off balance esp when fatigued.

By no means I'm saying keep Oduro and Jackson at all cost. If a fair trade comes along, sure, trade one or both of them. But both still has uses. TFC just has to play these guys to their strengths, and I think they can work under Vanney's system.

Excellent post,

MightyDM
10-30-2014, 08:03 PM
Another positive was the comeback against Portland. The place was jumping, the team was fired up, Bradley was a madman!

Nice to see the optimism, hope you're right.

great posts

MightyDM
10-30-2014, 08:12 PM
Problem for TFC is that all the players that we sign fit better into other teams!

Brilliant response to "some players fit better on some teams than others!"

MightyDM
10-30-2014, 08:40 PM
Is there any chance Tim L will have something to do with the new LA FC franchise announced today, with Vincent Tam and Magic Johnson among the partners? They have similar messaging about becoming a world club. Not yet the bloody big deal, mind...

notthesun
10-30-2014, 09:07 PM
I'm with Yohan. Wright-Phillips is ok, better than Oduro but not that far away from just okay IMO. If Henry leaves this off-season I look forward to Wright-Phillips scoring maybe 15 goals next year.

Fort York Redcoat
11-03-2014, 10:43 AM
I just took a first look at season goals.

Plata 13
Silva 11
Defoe 11
Urruti 10

I'm well aware each of these has a story behind it but just thinking of all the money involved that just made problems in moving these players around is just mind blowing.

JuliquE
11-03-2014, 03:56 PM
I just took a first look at season goals.

Plata 13
Silva 11
Defoe 11
Urruti 10

I'm well aware each of these has a story behind it but just thinking of all the money involved that just made problems in moving these players around is just mind blowing.
And to think, those are just the more recent/relevant cases..

Dub Narcotic
11-04-2014, 12:49 AM
Well, Vancouver has lost Lee Nguyen (MLS MVP candidate) and Camilo (2nd leading scorer in Liga MX Apetura ths year). Both those players are better than anyone TFC has lost, and that was just in the last two years.

Yohan
11-04-2014, 06:05 PM
6. Thou shalt always play with a good passer DM

It's not exactly a secret. Even the best teams in the world will play with at least one central midfielder who's primary duty is more defensive than offensive. Because a team needs a shield in front of the back four, especially when fullbacks get caught out of position.

A DM plays vital part in defence. He's likely the guy who prevents opposition from attacking through the middle and reaching the defenders. He's a ball winner.If he has good positioning and anticipation, he'll intercept a lot of passes. He'll likely be a good tackler who will dispossess an opposition player off the ball. So a good DM is good for defence.

The trend in MLS is that being just a good ball winner DM is not good enough. You must also be able to contribute offensively. If you win the ball, but you cannot make an effective first pass, then a lot of your defensive work is done for naught, esp if you end up losing the ball again. And one of best times to spring an attack is on the counter, when the opposition defence has too many men forward to support the attack and the defence may not be set and organized to absorb an attack. Easier to breakdown a defence when everyone is in a bit of disarray. Hence why a lot of MLS teams play on the counter, or counter attack as one of their primary tactics.

So, instead of a traditional '6', a lot of MLS teams look for '6.5'. A guy who is a good ball winner, but can make the first pass out of the defence, linking the defence to midfield to forwards. He may also end up collecting passes from defenders who can't make a good forward pass, which a lot of MLS CBs still suffer from. Probably the best example of this 6.5 DM is Kyle Beckerman. He is good defensively, but he's also got array of passing, has a good long range shot and knows when to join the attack, having a high footy IQ. RSL knows that if Beckerman is on the ball, he'll likely not lose possession easily and he'll make an advantage forward pass from deep midfield. So the other midfielders can take a bit more risk going forward and try to overload opposition defence in certain spots. The position of passer DM is getting more critical that Seattle opted to use a DP spot on Ozzie Alonso, and Portland did with Diego Chara.

Toronto had the perfect 6.5 DM in Matias Laba, who's interception and tackles data is way off the charts. And he can make a clean first pass. I've already discussed some of Bradley's faults, but Toronto needs to use a DM who is defence first guy. From what I've seen, Collen Warner might be able to play this position, but he's been too ill disciplined going forward and I'm not sure if he's good enough defensively. Warren Creavalle is a DM by trade, but he's the traditional ball winner DM and so far his offensive skills aren't good enough.

If Vanney wants to play just 2 CMs in the middle, you cannot afford to have one of CMs be weak technically. He has to be able to make a pass. With 3 CMs, you can sorta get away with having a pure defensive DM if the other 2 are good technically, but one of faults of pure defensive DM is that he is more or less ignored by opposition defence on attack, because they know he's likely not going to be a huge threat.

DM was one of positions that MLS teams sorta skimped on wages traditionally, but with growing importance of a passer DM in modern game, it's not a position that a team can afford to be cheap. You should still be able to find a good DM without using a DP spot, but likely you will be spending 250-350k to get a good one. But it's a glaring weakness in TFC roster right now, if you do not play Bradley as a DM.

molenshtain
11-04-2014, 08:25 PM
6. Thou shalt always play with a good passer DM

It's not exactly a secret. Even the best teams in the world will play with at least one central midfielder who's primary duty is more defensive than offensive. Because a team needs a shield in front of the back four, especially when fullbacks get caught out of position.

A DM plays vital part in defence. He's likely the guy who prevents opposition from attacking through the middle and reaching the defenders. He's a ball winner.If he has good positioning and anticipation, he'll intercept a lot of passes. He'll likely be a good tackler who will dispossess an opposition player off the ball. So a good DM is good for defence.

The trend in MLS is that being just a good ball winner DM is not good enough. You must also be able to contribute offensively. If you win the ball, but you cannot make an effective first pass, then a lot of your defensive work is done for naught, esp if you end up losing the ball again. And one of best times to spring an attack is on the counter, when the opposition defence has too many men forward to support the attack and the defence may not be set and organized to absorb an attack. Easier to breakdown a defence when everyone is in a bit of disarray. Hence why a lot of MLS teams play on the counter, or counter attack as one of their primary tactics.

So, instead of a traditional '6', a lot of MLS teams look for '6.5'. A guy who is a good ball winner, but can make the first pass out of the defence, linking the defence to midfield to forwards. He may also end up collecting passes from defenders who can't make a good forward pass, which a lot of MLS CBs still suffer from. Probably the best example of this 6.5 DM is Kyle Beckerman. He is good defensively, but he's also got array of passing, has a good long range shot and knows when to join the attack, having a high footy IQ. RSL knows that if Beckerman is on the ball, he'll likely not lose possession easily and he'll make an advantage forward pass from deep midfield. So the other midfielders can take a bit more risk going forward and try to overload opposition defence in certain spots. The position of passer DM is getting more critical that Seattle opted to use a DP spot on Ozzie Alonso, and Portland did with Diego Chara.

Toronto had the perfect 6.5 DM in Matias Laba, who's interception and tackles data is way off the charts. And he can make a clean first pass. I've already discussed some of Bradley's faults, but Toronto needs to use a DM who is defence first guy. From what I've seen, Collen Warner might be able to play this position, but he's been too ill disciplined going forward and I'm not sure if he's good enough defensively. Warren Creavalle is a DM by trade, but he's the traditional ball winner DM and so far his offensive skills aren't good enough.

If Vanney wants to play just 2 CMs in the middle, you cannot afford to have one of CMs be weak technically. He has to be able to make a pass. With 3 CMs, you can sorta get away with having a pure defensive DM if the other 2 are good technically, but one of faults of pure defensive DM is that he is more or less ignored by opposition defence on attack, because they know he's likely not going to be a huge threat.

DM was one of positions that MLS teams sorta skimped on wages traditionally, but with growing importance of a passer DM in modern game, it's not a position that a team can afford to be cheap. You should still be able to find a good DM without using a DP spot, but likely you will be spending 250-350k to get a good one. But it's a glaring weakness in TFC roster right now, if you do not play Bradley as a DM.


From everything I've heard from Vanney I don't think he'll be playing a 2 man central midfield. I think he understands that's not how best to use Bradley. I think we'll be seeing Bradley playing in a midfield with a "6" and a "10" with inverted wingers next year.

Yohan
11-08-2014, 02:12 PM
7. The importance of fullbacks

It's not the most glamorous position, but it's importance in modern football is growing every year. In a way tactically, fullbacks may be one of more important positions. You have the traditional role of fullbacks, which is to provide defence from the flanks. But more steadily, fullbacks are critical part of a lot of attacks. So a modern fullbacks are not just solid defensively, but also good offensively. He must know how to defend, but also have the smarts to pick his time for his overlap runs and have the skill to dribble and deliver a good cross into the box.

In MLS, most teams cheap out on fullbacks, and for most part, because MLS teams play tight at the back, the lack of quality on FB defensively can be masked to some extent. Good MLS teams are starting to use fullbacks as key part of their attack. Fullbacks can create an overload in the midfield, creating 2v1 chances on the flanks. Whenever you create an overload in the midfield on the attack, it means someone or, some players are open, as defence shifts to try to compensate. Good teammates can exploit the channels.

Fullbacks are critical to RSL attack. Beltran and Wingert aren't individually brilliant, but working within RSL formation, they know their role. They are the primary source of attack on the flanks as RSL midfield will pinch in, so on attack when one of the fullbacks push up, RSL's 4-4-2 diamond turns into 3-1-3-1-2 with 5 in the midfield. RSL fullbacks are very aggressive, and they have the stamina to run up the flanks all game long. Seattle also use fullbacks aggressively especially on the right with Yedlin and his pace can move between defence and attack rapidly. LA runs a 4-4-2 as base, but either Rogers and Gargan will push up, creating a 3-4-3 depending on which side the attack is channeled through, or even a 3-3-4 when LA is being really aggressive. Shift from Todd Dunivant, who has been more of a defence first fullback, but smart when picking his runs to support on attack to Robbie Rogers who has been normally an attacking winger converted to fullback is indicative of how Bruce Arena is changing how he uses fullbacks from more traditional 4-4-2 couter, to more possession based attack using fullbacks to overload midfield.

So, what does that mean for TFC? It's suicidal to overcommit your FBs when your base CBs are weak. If TFC wants to play with more attacking fullbacks, the CBs have to be solid, and the DM able to cover for FBs if they get caught on the counter. Fullbacks are still the most moneyball position in MLS, and I think Morrow and Bloom are generally able to do the job. Justin Morrow has been the most consistent player for TFC this season. He may not be spectacular going forward, but he supports the attack well. He proves he's good defensively by also being able to play CB in a pinch, despite being only 5'9-10. He's a starter for most MLS teams, and on a good wage.
Mark Bloom is a bargain. He is good offensively for a fullback, with ability to deliver a cross and can use both feet. Defensively, he is prone to being caught on the counter and his positioning has been suspect, but some of it has to do with nobody organizing the defence well when Caldwell is out. For min wage, he is a good player for that price.

The thing about MLS is, fullbacks considered junk can be very effective under certain system. One man's trash is another man's gem? Seth Sinovic was waived by New England but flourishes at SKC. Not the most brilliant of fullbacks, but he fits SKC's high press 4-3-3 well. And for TFC fans, Dan Gargan is now the starting right FB for LA Galaxy. He still has his faults, but LA's defence first system shields, (plus playing with 2 good CBs in Omar Gonzalez and AJ De La Garza) a lot of Gargan's faults, and he's gotten really good with his supporting runs. One of SJ's failure this season has been trading away Morrow and Beitashour, who have been solid and were on affordable wages, and trying to break in new set of fullbacks that never quite worked out as well as before.

So, if someone incredibly better than Morrow and Bloom comes along for good price and good cap hit, sure. I'd love to have a look. But I don't think TFC should tinker too much with Morrow and Bloom combo. FBs aren't the biggest worry with TFC right now. (well, barring Bloom being away from his family and new kid)

Yohan
11-19-2014, 12:27 PM
http://www.mlssoccer.com/news/article/2014/11/19/new-england-revolution-verge-mls-cup-after-three-year-turnaround

Good article on how New England scored on good domestic talents to build a winning team.