Coach/GM Shopping

[dutch]

Coach Shopping anybody?
I dont believe vanney is going to take us to the playoffs.
what are some viable options or damnit the best available coaches in the world.
my first idea is to bring in mark watson. the canadian head coach of san jose who was just let go
impressive record considering he never had a healthy roster and champions league record to boot
assistant coach for canada since 04 and coached canada u20 2007-2010
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Watson_%28Canadian_soccer%29

http://www.mercurynews.com/earthquakes/ci_26742014/earthquakes-ex-coach-mark-watson-takes-high-road

Steve sampson from LA, I dont know if he's been out of work since 06 or what
the United States Soccer Federation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Soccer_Federation) (USSF) named Sampson as the interim coach in April 1995. But after leading the US to a surprising fourth-place finish at the Copa América 1995 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copa_Am%C3%A9rica_1995), including a 3-0 romp over Argentina (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argentina_national_football_team), as well as a victory over arch-rivals Mexico (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexico_national_football_team) in the quarterfinals, Sampson was promoted to full-time national team coach in August 1995.

Many of the players whom Sampson had brought into the team were absent from the Galaxy squad due to national team commitments for the US, Costa Rica, and Guatemala. Sampson was on the hot seat to be fired, but as the season continued the Galaxy improved and eventually won the U.S. Open Cup (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Open_Cup) and MLS Cup (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MLS_Cup) double
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Sampson


sorry if its messy.

[Wull]

I'd like to see them throw money at Lagerway to come in (that's not to say he would come of course) and allow him to pick everyone under him so we finally have a cohesive unit. Hopefully that would do enough to quell any hard feelings by players that were loyal to Nelsen and it would give us the needed experience to accommodate a coach that doesn't have the resume we would all hope for (I don't think Bruce or Sigi are coming).

[Areathrasher]

No to Watson, god no.

Lagerway is interesting. Out of contract at the end of season and hasn't signed an extension. Rumored to want a president gig, if MLSE could get him id be fine with dumping Bez and Vanney.

[Ultra & Proud]

No to Watson, god no.

Lagerway is interesting. Out of contract at the end of season and hasn't signed an extension. Rumored to want a president gig, if MLSE could get him id be fine with dumping Bez and Vanney.
This would be the only saving grace for our squad that I can see. Still I doubt it. I think next year is a 'retooling' year and we have a regression from the 'success' of 2014.

[jloome]

No to Watson, god no.

Lagerway is interesting. Out of contract at the end of season and hasn't signed an extension. Rumored to want a president gig, if MLSE could get him id be fine with dumping Bez and Vanney.

It's not just that I disagree, as I see positives in Vanney that others evidently don't agree with, it's also that Lagerway is a GM, not a coach. Bez, he could replace; but we'd still need to find a coach at that point.

If we bring in another new outside influence, he'll bring in massive change, roster upheaval, starting over again etc.

ENOUGH. It never works. You have no faith in Vanney but there's no way ten games is enough to judge someone; if we did that, pretty much every other coach in the league would have been fired at some point.

Let's do what works in other towns: a veteran MLSer coaching, someone who knows the league as GM. In other words, what we have right now; no more primadonna former premiership stars, no more reinventing the f'ing wheel.

EDIT: And Mark Watson? Jesus Tapdancing Christ, no. He's one of the leaders of the "rebellion" that got Osieck tossed after he led us to the Gold Cup for being too tough on players at the confed cup. Anyone who has listened to the guy over the years knew exactly what was going to go down, just as Mo's background should have told people what would happen if given the reins here.

[Areathrasher]

It's not just that I disagree, as I see positives in Vanney that others evidently don't agree with, it's also that Lagerway is a GM, not a coach. Bez, he could replace; but we'd still need to find a coach at that point.

If we bring in another new outside influence, he'll bring in massive change, roster upheaval, starting over again etc.

ENOUGH. It never works. You have no faith in Vanney but there's no way ten games is enough to judge someone; if we did that, pretty much every other coach in the league would have been fired at some point.

Let's do what works in other towns: a veteran MLSer coaching, someone who knows the league as GM. In other words, what we have right now; no more primadonna former premiership stars, no more reinventing the f'ing wheel.

EDIT: And Mark Watson? Jesus Tapdancing Christ, no. He's one of the leaders of the "rebellion" that got Osieck tossed after he led us to the Gold Cup for being too tough on players at the confed cup. Anyone who has listened to the guy over the years knew exactly what was going to go down, just as Mo's background should have told people what would happen if given the reins here.

Yea I know he is not a coach but if he were to come in and appoint his own staff i'd be fine with it.

I'm in the Vanney/Bez camp unless a realistic proven MLS vet becomes available (which I don't see happening)

[starter]

We need an experienced manager to move upstairs in a few years. Osieck is available ( can not care less about his political correctness ).
He also knows how to work with MLS kind of players, having worked in Canada and Australia. Keep Bez there to count MLS beans.

[Leedsoronto]

Yeh lets get an experienced manager like what Man U have done, oh erm, hold that thought a min as they are still 1-0 down at West Brom and not Top of the EPL

im in the Bez/Vanney camp for now.

[Oldtimer]

It's not just that I disagree, as I see positives in Vanney that others evidently don't agree with, it's also that Lagerway is a GM, not a coach. Bez, he could replace; but we'd still need to find a coach at that point.

If we bring in another new outside influence, he'll bring in massive change, roster upheaval, starting over again etc.

ENOUGH. It never works. You have no faith in Vanney but there's no way ten games is enough to judge someone; if we did that, pretty much every other coach in the league would have been fired at some point.



Some people are desperately seeking who won't come here. Vanney's record is based on a team he didn't build, playing a formation (4-4-2) that he doesn't like. With a DP who doesn't want to be here that he didn't pick.
You just have to listen to the man, he is a decent tactician. Give him the right to make the few changes that are needed to play a 4-3-3 or a 4-5-1 or a 4-2-3-1 and you will see something quite different from these handful of games.

[Leedsoronto]

Priceless, Fellainy put on at the half by Van H and scores within a minute Lol.

[Areathrasher]

Yeh lets get an experienced manager like what Man U have done, oh erm, hold that thought a min as they are still 1-0 down at West Brom and not Top of the EPL

im in the Bez/Vanney camp for now.

:lol: right after you posted that he brought on Fellani and he scored :lol:

EDIT: You beat me to it :lol:

[Leedsoronto]

:lol: right after you posted that he brought on Fellani and he scored :lol:

EDIT: You beat me to it :lol:

sods law rules again

[levyashin]

Unless someone like Langerway can be hired as president with a coach such as Sigi-- Bruce--- Jason,then forget about any other possibility.
Bez/Vanney is where its at.
This league has so much parity even with the coaching.
There are no Fergies or Wengers on this side of the ocean.
Look at all the retreads even Preki is still around.
Determination /Desire is what this club needs from TOP to BOTTOM until then enjoy the fact that we have a professional team at all
I could coach this team to mediocrity.:hump:

[Auzzy]

I'm not too convinced about Bez/Vanney either, but I don't see a sure bet like Bruce Arena or Sigi Schmid available.

- The other experienced/recycled MLS coaches that might be available, have already "failed" somewhere else, and/or are unproven in the MLS 2.5 environment.
- Guys with some combination of MLS playing, Academy/Assistant coaching, and/or NCAA coaching experience, are unproven as top-level professional coaches, just like Vanney. Going with them is just another spin of the turnstile.
- Experienced international coaches have their own caveats -- can they deal with / survive / thrive in MLS, with all its peculiarities?

In any case, Tim Leiweke is on his way out. Who knows what the hell happens after he is gone. Better sit tight for now. Next year might be another write-off, as Vanney & Bez continue learning on the job (as per usual) -- and at some point, there will be a new Prez/CEO or whatever Bogers decides to hire. The new guy might want to have his own say RE the GM & coaching roles.

Pretty depressing, eh? I don't know what else could happen.

The only thing that would give me much hope, would be a change in ownership, i.e., TFC sold by MLSE. (Not just a change in ownership at the Bogers level.) Not happening though.

[ag futbol]

Technically Arena failed in New York too. Add Cirovski and Zambrano to the list of potential candidates.

Overall I still think there are names, it's just as fans we can't come up with a big list because the sport isn't well covered here. Especially if we're talking about USL / NASL / NCAA talent.

[Ossington Mental Youth]

id like to see who we will be getting no matter how many wishful thoughts, Vanney

[portu]

Carlos Queiroz anyone?

[molenshtain]

Carlos Queiroz anyone?

Isn't he in jail?

[TFC07]

We need someone that is good with tactics while players (especially DP's) respect him. I personally believe players (especially older ones) don't have respect for a guy like Vanney. Vanney seems like a great coach for a young team, but not a team that has some "world class" players.

We need establish coach who can handle pressure (coaching for TFC is probably most stress up job due to drama off-field and pressure of making it to the playoffs) which TFC never had before.

Also, this whole MLS/North America experience thing is overrate. End of the day, football is football. Hire best manager for the job who has a real track record of winning.

[Yohan]

Carlos Queiroz anyone?
has a well paying gig with Iranian national team.

[Yohan]

Also, this whole MLS/North America experience thing is overrate. End of the day, football is football. Hire best manager for the job who has a real track record of winning.
pretty much every MLS team disagrees with you, and they know way more about MLS than you or me.

[SoccMan2]

Bob Bradley do whatever needs to be done to get him here, if a guy like Bob Bradley can't change this club around then nobody can. Go get this guy I'm sure his son can convince his dad to come and coach, Bob Bradley will finally take this club to the promise land, let's go get him already please.

[TFC07]

pretty much every MLS team disagrees with you, and they know way more about MLS than you or me.

Here's a thing: how many experience MLS coaches with winning track record are out there? It's very small pool unless we steal MLS coach from another team like Seattle did back when they first came to the league.

TFC can't afford to wait and develop coaches anymore (like other teams in MLS) Given pressure and stress that comes with coaching TFC team, you need someone RIGHT NOW who can manage right out of the gate.

Time to try something different here! We need proper football manager who knows a thing or two about tactics and has done something in his career.

MLS isn't super unique league that football managers outside of NA can't mange unless you think non-NA are bunch of idiots. If you look at both Canadian and US national teams, they're both manage by foreigners not NA coaches.

[Yohan]

Here's a thing: how many experience MLS coaches with winning track record are out there? It's very small pool unless we steal MLS coach from another team like Seattle did back when they first came to the league.

TFC can't afford to wait and develop coaches anymore (like other teams in MLS) Given pressure and stress that comes with coaching TFC team, you need someone RIGHT NOW who can manage right out of the gate.

Time to try something different here! We need proper football manager who knows a thing or two about tactics and has done something in his career.

MLS isn't super unique league that football managers outside of NA can't mange unless you think non-NA are bunch of idiots. If you look at both Canadian and US national teams, they're both manage by foreigners not NA coaches.
managing the national team is way different beast than a club team

[portu]

has a well paying gig with Iranian national team.

What's a couple million to MLSE?

[TFC07]

managing the national team is way different beast than a club team

But they're managing NA players (at least half of them playing in MLS) who didn't have MLS/NA experience before being hired to manage their teams.

We don't necessary need "NA/MLS" coach, we just need a GOOD manager who can get most of his players right away especially amount of money TFC has invested. We need a coach with track record who can get players respect and buy into his plan.

TFC isn't like other MLS clubs, the amount of pressure of making it to the playoffs is going to keep on increasing until they finally make it.

Do you think inexperience coach can manage $100 million roster with pressure of making it to the playoffs in his first season? Why take that risk when you can hire someone who has been in similar stressful situation?

[portu]

To elaborate on my advocation for Queiroz I believe that he has the credentials to demand respect, the experience to work with players of such a wide spectrum of talent, intelligence and adaptability to understand the rules of MLS and the tactical nous to make average players look better than simply average. I'd also add that he's not the father of any of our players thus avoiding potential drama in the dressing room.

Also, if your going to spend 7 figures on a coach go big.

Edit: Vanney may also be able to develop as a coach under Queiroz immensely if he were to accept an assistant position.

[Areathrasher]

The same Carlos Quieroz that managed the MetroStars and was awful for them?

[portu]

The same Carlos Quieroz that managed the MetroStars and was awful for them?
Of his 24 games he had there he still possessed a MUCH better winning % (50%) than Bradley (36%).

[Yohan]

But they're managing NA players (at least half of them playing in MLS) who didn't have MLS/NA experience before being hired to manage their teams.

They don't have to deal with the rigours of MLS season with national teams. They only see their players like what, maybe few weeks every year?


We don't necessary need "NA/MLS" coach, we just need a GOOD manager who can get most of his players right away especially amount of money TFC has invested. We need a coach with track record who can get players respect and buy into his plan.

TFC isn't like other MLS clubs, the amount of pressure of making it to the playoffs is going to keep on increasing until they finally make it.

Do you think inexperience coach can manage $100 million roster with pressure of making it to the playoffs in his first season? Why take that risk when you can hire someone who has been in similar stressful situation?
I agree with you for most part. I'd be willing to give a proven foreign manager a shot, but with a GM who knows MLS well.

That's the thing. MLS is apparently so different a beast that most foreign managers who doesn't have MLS experience fail. It seems that the experience of managing an MLS club is so radically different that those who are already used to it end up faring better.

It's not just the tactics. It's the travel (and doesn't help that you're taking commercial most of the time). Time zone difference. Altitude. Climate. And it ends up with you have to be a very good man manager to get the best out of your players on the few training days per week that you do get. Not like hopping on a bus to go to a city few hours away. The traveling essentially eats up 2 days a week, and travel fatigue is different than game day fatigue.

Then you deal with the byzantine MLS rules, and unless you know them well, you won't be able to build your roster with the limit cap you have.

Hence why I think NA managers have an edge. They already know what it's like over here, and the culture shock of the league throw most foreign managers off. And why I think guys like Pareja and Carl Robinson will end up doing well, because they have the experience of playing outside MLS, but also have MLS experience as well.

If you can find a manager who is not only good tactically, but also adaptable and can tolerate a lot of shit, plus a good player manager, sure. Go ahead. But the odds are very, very slim.

[Areathrasher]

Of his 24 games he had there he still possessed a MUCH better winning % (50%) than Bradley (36%).

Bob Bradley that won an MLS Cup?

[jloome]

They don't have to deal with the rigours of MLS season with national teams. They only see their players like what, maybe few weeks every year?

I agree with you for most part. I'd be willing to give a proven foreign manager a shot, but with a GM who knows MLS well.

That's the thing. MLS is apparently so different a beast that most foreign managers who doesn't have MLS experience fail. It seems that the experience of managing an MLS club is so radically different that those who are already used to it end up faring better.

It's not just the tactics. It's the travel (and doesn't help that you're taking commercial most of the time). Time zone difference. Altitude. Climate. And it ends up with you have to be a very good man manager to get the best out of your players on the few training days per week that you do get. Not like hopping on a bus to go to a city few hours away. The traveling essentially eats up 2 days a week, and travel fatigue is different than game day fatigue.

Then you deal with the byzantine MLS rules, and unless you know them well, you won't be able to build your roster with the limit cap you have.

Hence why I think NA managers have an edge. They already know what it's like over here, and the culture shock of the league throw most foreign managers off. And why I think guys like Pareja and Carl Robinson will end up doing well, because they have the experience of playing outside MLS, but also have MLS experience as well.

If you can find a manager who is not only good tactically, but also adaptable and can tolerate a lot of shit, plus a good player manager, sure. Go ahead. But the odds are very, very slim.

QFT. This is why clubs develop coaches over a few seasons, the one thing we haven't really done.

[ag futbol]

They don't have to deal with the rigours of MLS season with national teams. They only see their players like what, maybe few weeks every year?

I agree with you for most part. I'd be willing to give a proven foreign manager a shot, but with a GM who knows MLS well.

That's the thing. MLS is apparently so different a beast that most foreign managers who doesn't have MLS experience fail. It seems that the experience of managing an MLS club is so radically different that those who are already used to it end up faring better.

It's not just the tactics. It's the travel (and doesn't help that you're taking commercial most of the time). Time zone difference. Altitude. Climate. And it ends up with you have to be a very good man manager to get the best out of your players on the few training days per week that you do get. Not like hopping on a bus to go to a city few hours away. The traveling essentially eats up 2 days a week, and travel fatigue is different than game day fatigue.

Then you deal with the byzantine MLS rules, and unless you know them well, you won't be able to build your roster with the limit cap you have.

Hence why I think NA managers have an edge. They already know what it's like over here, and the culture shock of the league throw most foreign managers off. And why I think guys like Pareja and Carl Robinson will end up doing well, because they have the experience of playing outside MLS, but also have MLS experience as well.

If you can find a manager who is not only good tactically, but also adaptable and can tolerate a lot of shit, plus a good player manager, sure. Go ahead. But the odds are very, very slim.
I agree it's not the same as europe.

Where these guys are coming from, they have HUGE numbers of staff, they manage players who have been highly trained since the age of 10 and are ruthlessly professional but also cutthroat when it comes to negotiating salaries and whatnot.

Super coach comes to North America. Realizes, his staff of 50+ is now a staff of 10 people. He actually has to get his hands dirty a lot more than he did before when it comes to managing a budget and identifying talent. He can no longer afford the players he did in the past, has to look in totally different places for talent and figure out what qualities he's going to sacrifice to make things work (an entirely foreign concept). His domestic players require training on the basics of football because they haven't learned them yet in an academy or in college. Rather than focus, he gets a squad of players with varying levels of professionalism, many of which wonder whether they'll be cut shortly given a lack of contract security and be looking into a void career wise.

Now that being said, I think a lot of coaches from central / south america would be able to make it work. they have direct knowledge of a primary feeder, experience with limited budgets, understand what it is to manager players who are less than 100% perfect. Relating to the North American player could be challenging, but the right guy could still do it I'm sure.
It would still appear to me that MLS has little interest in letting foreigners into their coaching club. The pool of candidates they use now are cheap, and I think that's their primary concern.

[dutch]

I believe we need a GM who has been a GM previously and a Coach who has previously been a winning coach in OUR league. whats vanney got? 10 games I believe. We do NOT have time on our side. You want to bring up a coach and it takes a few years, fine make him academy coach till you see potential. Most coaches all over the world dont get the wheel till they bring a small b team up out of the basement and THEN people come asking for them to run theyre club. Who comes in will have to accept our roster as is, no rebuild and if theres a couple bad apples, theyre removed. this is not hard at all. We dont need a rebuild, the major pieces are there. And were not asking people to come who have no interest. We have money and one of the best facilities in the world, in a world class city.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octavio_Zambrano
Octavio Zambrano is down in ecuador and I believe he would relish the opportunity.

6 years MLS head coach experience
UEFA A diploma, USSF 'A' coaching license

took last place galaxy in 97 from last in conference 0-3 to 15-13 and playoffs,

The 1998 Galaxy went 24 and 8 and broke all MLS scoring records, ending the year with 85 goals scored, the 1998 Galaxy became the first North American professional soccer team to make it to a CONCACAF clubs final against Cruz Azul of Mexico

got galaxy to the cup final in 99,

Zambrano still holds the best league and goal scoring record amongst all MetroStars/Red Bull Coaches, a list that includes some famous coaches amongst them: Carlos Queiroz, Alberto Parreira, Bora MIlutinovic, Bruce Arena, Juan Carlos Osorio and Bob Bradley.

1994 USISL Western Division Coach of the Year

In January 2012 Zambrano was named head coach for Deportivo Pereira (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deportivo_Pereira) of the Columbian Categoría Primera B (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Categor%C3%ADa_Primera_B). [4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octavio_Zambrano#cite_note-4) Deportivo Pereira during the second semester of 2012 broke the record of points obtained in a single season by any Colombian professional soccer team since the installment of short tournaments, the team obtained 43 out 54 possible points and went unbeaten at home for 11 months and 20 days. Was the highest scoring team in the league and the least scored against. During the first tournament of 2013 after a good start a string of injuries to main players in the defense coincided with a failure to secure a victory in 4 consecutive games and left the team out of the group of 8.

[dutch]

I just found this, WHAT ARE WE WAITING FOR!!!

august 10,2014
http://www.mlssoccer.com/news/article/2014/08/10/former-la-new-york-coach-octavio-zambrano-interested-return-mls


Overall, his .587 winning percentage is second best all-time in MLS among coaches with at least 50 games managed. Only LA Galaxy's Bruce Arena has a better winning percentage (.602).

[jloome]

I just found this, WHAT ARE WE WAITING FOR!!!

august 10,2014
http://www.mlssoccer.com/news/article/2014/08/10/former-la-new-york-coach-octavio-zambrano-interested-return-mls


Overall, his .587 winning percentage is second best all-time in MLS among coaches with at least 50 games managed. Only LA Galaxy's Bruce Arena has a better winning percentage (.602).

Yeah, he's been mentioned a lot on these boards over the various seasons as a potential. I'm not sure why he doesn't get another shot; he was an assistant at KC a few seasons ago. It's a bit weird actually; maybe he had a rep with the owners for being difficult or demanding. Seems humble and usually puts out winning teams, so it's a mystery.

One of the few I'd say might be able by experience to turn it around quickly. Having said that, Ray Hudson had a massive winning season at Miami during MLS 1.0 as well, and then had a horrible time later on, I believe with DC united.

The league was substantially below its current pace and tactical acumen when Zambrano was last a head coach, in other words. But the fact that he's won elsewhere speaks well for him. Plus, he'd be a pipeline to SA talent.

[jloome]

I just found this, WHAT ARE WE WAITING FOR!!!

august 10,2014
http://www.mlssoccer.com/news/article/2014/08/10/former-la-new-york-coach-octavio-zambrano-interested-return-mls


Overall, his .587 winning percentage is second best all-time in MLS among coaches with at least 50 games managed. Only LA Galaxy's Bruce Arena has a better winning percentage (.602).

Also, people don't always see stats as the full story. Here's a quote from the Facebook page of his former goalie at NY MetroStars, Mike Aman:

"
https://fbcdn-profile-a.akamaihd.net/hprofile-ak-xaf1/v/t1.0-1/c0.3.32.32/p32x32/32458_399050176171_6866117_n.jpg?oh=dba77944ffd395 f28101df289dc598d2&oe=54B7AEA4&__gda__=1424900585_00c56e9f409446ab231ec4ffd4d8d54 8 (https://www.facebook.com/pages/Mike-Ammann/95102901171)
Mike Ammann (https://www.facebook.com/pages/Mike-Ammann/95102901171) Quick story, in LA to play Galaxy. Day before game, OZ tells Peter Villegas to man mark Cienfuegos. We ask who is going to play wide right in mid? OZ says don't worry about it because they won't attack that side if we shut down Cien. Guess he forgot that Greg Vanney was left back and would destroy us. Sure enough, Vanney got the ball for the first 30 minutes at the Rose Bowl all alone. Thank god the players made the adjustment on the field and told Peter just to go back wide right. OZ never even knew. One of many, but you would have loved being in the locker room. He proved that good players can win games for a team, not necessarily the coaching.

EDIT: It's also rumored he was acting as a player agent while coaching and signing his own players. Don't know if that's true; same story we heard about Mo when he was here, and there was never anythign solid to support it.

[dutch]

not enough to discredit him. he wants to come which is key, those stats he posted, theyre still standing, no ones broke them yet. that stands for somthing. but bogers or the board would have to do it i believe
bez would be too scared this guy becomes director and has him demoted.

thats one of the things Im gonna miss with nelson, his contact influence. vanney&bez.....

[molenshtain]

not enough to discredit him. he wants to come which is key, those stats he posted, theyre still standing, no ones broke them yet. that stands for somthing. but bogers or the board would have to do it i believe
bez would be too scared this guy becomes director and has him demoted.

thats one of the things Im gonna miss with nelson, his contact influence. vanney&bez.....

you know who else had contact influence? Mo. Winter to a lesser extent. Stop letting people like that run this team. I gaurentee you that SKC and D.C. and Columbus and etc couldn't give two shits their managers don't have contact influence.

[dutch]

I didnt say it is a hiring factor for clubs. I agree it has nothing to do with if a coach is good but its a bonus. Im speaking from my pov. and mo brought over dichio and winter brought koevermans so you can see contacts do help. did you have any ideas for coach's? thats what the topic is

[Oldtimer]

Threads like these always go nowhere for the same reason: Bruce and Sigi aren't coming, national team coaching is not the same thing as being a head coach, foreign coaches generally have a poor record in MLS unless they also played or coached here and understand the league, who is available either coached in MLS 1.0 (which was a different league) or has been fired due to a losing record.

What most winning MLS sides do is hire someone like Vanney, who has either academy or NCAA experience. They luck out by getting one who is good, and they stick with him long enough to get through the inevitable adjustment period.

Much riskier is to hire a guy like Nelsen with zero coaching experience and zero coaching training. It's pretty stupid to do that, actually.

I don't know why people repeat like a mantra that Vanney has "no coaching experience." He has a lot of training and experience at a level behind MLS, exactly what those who become winners do. Would I pick Bruce or Sigi over him? Of course, but they aren't coming.

The team with the worst long term record before us was NY during the MetroStars era, and guess how they got there? By changing coaches every year to "win now," exactly what some here are proposing yet again. How has that worked for us so far?

[dutch]

Threads like these?
why does everyone keep saying bruce or sigi, not once did I mention them or a foreign coach.
I mentioned OZ and theres no reason we should not sign him over vanney.
theres alot of people better qualified. and we're all entitled to our 2 cents

[Oldtimer]

Threads like these?
why does everyone keep saying bruce or sigi, not once did I mention them or a foreign coach.
I mentioned OZ and theres no reason we should not sign him over vanney.
theres alot of people better qualified. and we're all entitled to our 2 cents
MLS 1.0 guy. When he was coaching in MLS, the bottom salary was $12k, Nick Garcia was "defender of the year, " there were no academies (only a draft), there were no DPs, and you had "penalty shootouts" like hockey to decide ties. Sure he might have had a good record way back then, but I would think that someone a little more familiar with a modern MLS setup would do better. You are totally entitled to your opinion. My opinion is that coaching instability is why this team has lost for 8 years. You don't have to be a Fergie or a Capello to win in this league, but you need a plan and stability.

[OgtheDim]

I was going to say, why are people going back to the 90's for a coach? We have already had a coach with tactics from MLS circa 2006. We don't need one from circa 1998.

[starter]

The reason Robinson VWC produced much better quality football then RN TFC, is because VWC already perpetuated some football identity. TFC has none to speak of. IMO TFC needs a experienced manager to establish an identity, to get away from this underdog, bunker down, passive aggressive mentality.

On recent memory, Backe and Schalibaum did better then average MLS coach did.

Picking up another rookie, and hope for the best is an irresponsible business decision.

I am sure far more rookie coaches ( local and foreign ) fail in this league, compared to experienced foreign specialists.

[Oldtimer]

On recent memory, Backe and Schalibaum did better then average MLS coach did.



Schallibaum was suspended four times during his season with the Impact and fired within one year of his start.

Backe was so "good" he only lasted 2 years, despite having one of the best DPs in the league on his team, and was replaced by Mike Petke, an American former-player "rookie" by your standards, who has done a very job coaching NYRB and shows no sign of going anywhere.

There was no reason on paper to think that Petke would do so well. Greg Vanney has exactly the same experience as Petke (he was an assistant at Chivas, Petke was an assistant at NYRB). Despite Petke's "rookie" status, they are in the playoffs.

[Areathrasher]

I really can't believe people are calling for Schallibaum.

[starter]

Schallibaum was suspended four times during his season with the Impact and fired within one year of his start.

Backe was so "good" he only lasted 2 years, despite having one of the best DPs in the league on his team, and was replaced by Mike Petke, an American former-player "rookie" by your standards, who has done a very job coaching NYRB and shows no sign of going anywhere.

There was no reason on paper to think that Petke would do so well. Greg Vanney has exactly the same experience as Petke (he was an assistant at Chivas, Petke was an assistant at NYRB). Despite Petke's "rookie" status, they are in the playoffs.

I am sure we would rather take a passionate coach that takes us into playoffs, then a politically correct one that wastes another year here.

Petke arguably inherited some of the good things Backe set up, and this is how we should be doing it.

[Oldtimer]

I really can't believe people are calling for Schallibaum.

Unbelievable, isn't it?

Vanney didn't win immediately, even though he inherited a squad that doesn't play his style. Fire him and hire the next Schallibaum, it's gotta work!

Backe actually was a very rare exception as a foreign coach in that he didn't flame out immediately. More typically, you get an experienced foreign coach, like the coach of Feyenoord, Ruud Gullit, who tanked LA Galaxy despite having a great team.

Your chance of getting a foreign coach that works out is much, much, smaller than that a coach like Vanney will work out. Gullit, Schallibaum are what is typical.

[TFC07]

They don't have to deal with the rigours of MLS season with national teams. They only see their players like what, maybe few weeks every year?

I agree with you for most part. I'd be willing to give a proven foreign manager a shot, but with a GM who knows MLS well.

That's the thing. MLS is apparently so different a beast that most foreign managers who doesn't have MLS experience fail. It seems that the experience of managing an MLS club is so radically different that those who are already used to it end up faring better.

It's not just the tactics. It's the travel (and doesn't help that you're taking commercial most of the time). Time zone difference. Altitude. Climate. And it ends up with you have to be a very good man manager to get the best out of your players on the few training days per week that you do get. Not like hopping on a bus to go to a city few hours away. The traveling essentially eats up 2 days a week, and travel fatigue is different than game day fatigue.

Then you deal with the byzantine MLS rules, and unless you know them well, you won't be able to build your roster with the limit cap you have.

Hence why I think NA managers have an edge. They already know what it's like over here, and the culture shock of the league throw most foreign managers off. And why I think guys like Pareja and Carl Robinson will end up doing well, because they have the experience of playing outside MLS, but also have MLS experience as well.

If you can find a manager who is not only good tactically, but also adaptable and can tolerate a lot of shit, plus a good player manager, sure. Go ahead. But the odds are very, very slim.

What's the odd finding NA coach with winning record? Not much better!

So why limit your choices based on geography? We're entering in new era in MLS where cap is going to increase which means we're going to see a lot more talented players joining the league. Do you trust someone like Vanney to manage these new players and DP's?

The real reason why a lot of MLS teams hire rookie American coaches because it's cheap. TFC is one of few clubs can actually afford to pay for quality manager, so why cheap out like most of MLS teams?

If CSA (just bad as TFC) can hire someone like Floro (well qualified coach with tons of experience) with small budget, then why can't TFC do the same who are rich with resources?

[Areathrasher]

Nelsen was one of the best paid coaches in the league when he was here, no?

[starter]

I think 'protectionism' and lack of scouting among the reasons behind hiring [local] rookie coaches.

[Detroit_TFC]

Richie Williams. Former asst coach at NYRB, protege of Bruce Arena. Was interim in 2009, was in line for HC job but Salzburg hired Backe instead. Now HC for US U-17.

[OgtheDim]

Nelsen was one of the best paid coaches in the league when he was here, no?

No. There was a figure of $250K a year thrown out.

[Oldtimer]

Richie Williams. Former asst coach at NYRB, protege of Bruce Arena. Was interim in 2009, was in line for HC job but Salzburg hired Backe instead. Now HC for US U-17.

No more experienced than Vanney.




So why limit your choices based on geography?

Find me a foreign coach who has done truly well in MLS without having played/coached in North America before. No? Well that's your answer.

[ag futbol]

EDIT: It's also rumored he was acting as a player agent while coaching and signing his own players. Don't know if that's true; same story we heard about Mo when he was here, and there was never anythign solid to support it.
Considering Barry McLean is running our USL team - or so I read - it would appear TFC wouldn't rule that out.

Although why TFC would want that or how it isn't completely forbidden by the league, I have no idea.

[ag futbol]

No more experienced than Vanney.



Find me a foreign coach who has done truly well in MLS without having played/coached in North America before. No? Well that's your answer.
I'd dispute that. He spent a lot more time in an assistant role than Vanney has. Also done some work for a first team that has won praise. Nothing about what Vanney has done done so far, albeit in a short period, is notable.

As far as foreign coaches go, it's more important to assess can it work now than has it worked in the past. Prior to Jason Kreis nobody wanted to hire somebody that green, now clubs are doing it left and right even though there's a high flame out rate and a lot of them just suck.

As time goes on, this league starts to look a lot more like others around the world and the idea that a foreign coach can be successful would seem, into mind at least, to be more likely.

[Oldtimer]

I'd dispute that. He spent a lot more time in an assistant role than Vanney has. Also done some work for a first team that has won praise. Nothing about what Vanney has done done so far, albeit in a short period, is notable.

As far as foreign coaches go, it's more important to assess can it work now than has it worked in the past. Prior to Jason Kreis nobody wanted to hire somebody that green, now clubs are doing it left and right even though there's a high flame out rate and a lot of them just suck.

As time goes on, this league starts to look a lot more like others around the world and the idea that a foreign coach can be successful would seem, into mind at least, to be more likely.

Show me another league where you have players earning $40k starting alongside players earning $3 million, with insane travel across multiple time zones, and I might agree.

We have yet to see an actual live example of a foreign coach that has worked out long-term. Getting a foreign coach is much more risky than getting a guy like Vanney.

Vanney may or may not be the guy. He is very tactically aware, but the team didn't perform. The question is why? I would put it down to it not being his preferred team, and not having enough time for his tactics to be taught.

[ag futbol]

Show me another league where you have players earning $40k starting alongside players earning $3 million, with insane travel across multiple time zones, and I might agree.

That is changing as we speak. Salaries are going up, travel is getting better, and why people assume foreign managers can't rap their head around the requirements of travel and adjust I it, I have no idea. That is not rocket science.

The failure rate for coaches like Vanney is still significant. The sample size of foreign coaches is small. Backe was not that bad, neither was de Los Cabos despite the Fire not doing much. The facade dies a little bit all the time.

This is no different than MLS pre-Kreis. What would you have argued then?

[Areathrasher]

No. There was a figure of $250K a year thrown out.

Compared to others, how does that stack up?

[Initial B]

Why not look to the NASL to see if there are any coaches who might be able to coach in MLS? The quality of play there is improving at the same rate (though lower quality) as it is in MLS.

[jloome]

Getting a foreign coach is much more risky than getting a guy like Vanney.

At this point, this is pure statistical reality. We have ex-MLS players in New England, New York, Dallas, San Jose, Montreal, Colorado, Portland, Vancouver, Columbus, D.C., Philadelphia....

When are people here just going to lump it, stop trying to break the mold because it's American? Has anyone watched New England under Heaps? He lost eight in a row last season. And after three years of building with him, they're a pretty damn good team. Same with Dallas, and their ex-MLS player coach has only been there a year, making the most of what Hyndman couldn't.

All of these teams recognize realities that there are differences when most of your athletes are American and not European; they learn the game differently, their physiology is different (as the cream of elite athletes in the U.S. still go to other sports); they travel constantly, have much less prep time, much less coaching time generally. There's a ton for someone new to pickup, whereas the veteran MLS guy just knows the stuff.

Anyway, people need to just look at the reality; don't argue "what ifs", because we've been doing that for eight lousy years. Let's go with what other people are doing successfully, stop reinventing the wheel and build a winning team. Build it, not hire or buy it.

[jloome]

Why not look to the NASL to see if there are any coaches who might be able to coach in MLS? The quality of play there is improving at the same rate (though lower quality) as it is in MLS.

Again, why?

We've seen what works in other places. Vanney has his 'a' license, has a few years as an assistant; when he was at LA, Bruce Arena said he'd be a great coach someday. And tactically, he seems to know what he's talking about, which is definitely a first here. He's also blunt and honest in assessments and doesn't seem to be playing politics.

If people react based on the end of this season, the debacle just starts all over again.

[OgtheDim]

Compared to others, how does that stack up?

Information seems to be out there that Schmid and Arena are in the million range. I'm pretty sure Kreis isn't paid a pittance to build NYCFC. Kinnear is getting a raise to go to SJE. New contracts for Vermes and Ben Olsen, IIRC are going to be up there as well.

A bit of digging gets some old info

http://www.espnfc.com/story/485610

[Areathrasher]

A bit of digging gets some old info

http://www.espnfc.com/story/485610

I saw that too but it given it's from 2007 didnt take much notice.

Arena and Sigi are probably out there on their own in the highest paid stakes and Nelsen probably would have been in and around the best of the rest.

That Guillt salary is a warning to those that want to splash out. Be careful what you wish for :lol:

[OgtheDim]

Add Curtin at Philly to that list of building young coaches towards success.

[Yohan]

At this point, this is pure statistical reality. We have ex-MLS players in New England, New York, Dallas, San Jose, Montreal, Colorado, Portland, Vancouver, Columbus, D.C., Philadelphia....

When are people here just going to lump it, stop trying to break the mold because it's American? Has anyone watched New England under Heaps? He lost eight in a row last season. And after three years of building with him, they're a pretty damn good team. Same with Dallas, and their ex-MLS player coach has only been there a year, making the most of what Hyndman couldn't.

All of these teams recognize realities that there are differences when most of your athletes are American and not European; they learn the game differently, their physiology is different (as the cream of elite athletes in the U.S. still go to other sports); they travel constantly, have much less prep time, much less coaching time generally. There's a ton for someone new to pickup, whereas the veteran MLS guy just knows the stuff.

Anyway, people need to just look at the reality; don't argue "what ifs", because we've been doing that for eight lousy years. Let's go with what other people are doing successfully, stop reinventing the wheel and build a winning team. Build it, not hire or buy it.

Again, why?

We've seen what works in other places. Vanney has his 'a' license, has a few years as an assistant; when he was at LA, Bruce Arena said he'd be a great coach someday. And tactically, he seems to know what he's talking about, which is definitely a first here. He's also blunt and honest in assessments and doesn't seem to be playing politics.

If people react based on the end of this season, the debacle just starts all over again.

There is a massive movement to weed out MLS 1.0 managers, at least the ones that seems to not be able to adapt to MLS 2.0 (and arguably, we're already in MLS 2.5-MLS 3.0 era)

Teams are willing to give ex players turned coach a shot at managing, because they feel these guys have the MLS experience, but young enough to learn and adapt to the new MLS and also flexible to incorporate influx of better foreign talent in the league.

Old guys like Steve Nicol, Mariner, Hyndman, I guess FOs feel like these guys aren't going to be able to adapt. Or they are good enough for D2/D3 teams, like Preki. I don't think Yallop will find another gig if he gets fired from Chicago. Same I think for Klopas in Montreal. Speaking of Mtl, it's interesting that you'd think Joey Saputo is one of owners who'd be gung ho about finding a foreign manager. But I think last couple of seasons, esp with Schallibaum in charge, taught Saputo a thing or 2 about realities of MLS. (and coincidently, why Jesse Marsch was a better hire than Schallibaum in a lot of regards)

So in that regard, Vanney is probably one of better candidates out there, if you're looking for a young guy with coaching badges. (Vanney is doing a course with French FA, as well has having his USSF badges)

[Areathrasher]

Another couple of things on bringing in a foreign coach or any new one for that fact.

How does potentially not having a proper preseason if there is a lockout and starting the season on the road for two months play into potential choices?

[OgtheDim]

Another couple of things on bringing in a foreign coach or any new one for that fact.

How does potentially not having a proper preseason if there is a lockout and starting the season on the road for two months play into potential choices?

Obviously teams with stability in the manager position and in the clubhouse will have a leg up. A huge turnover in either over the off season is not going to be a good thing.

[dutch]

just a side note, Octavio Zambrano created the MLS reserve team and academy when he created Metrostars Black. some of the best coaches are old coaches. and he never stopped winning when he left MLS

[Detroit_TFC]

Another couple of things on bringing in a foreign coach or any new one for that fact.

How does potentially not having a proper preseason if there is a lockout and starting the season on the road for two months play into potential choices?

That is a damn good point. Beginning of 2015 season will be a terrible time to break in a new HC.

[starter]

As in case with Nelsen, Vanney is a smooth talker, and a student of the game.
But if he joined an existing business he would be given a junior position, and not a project leader role. Even if a project leader position was vacant, he would not get it-- business would look for a person with pedigree.
Trying to rationalize that others do that, may still be characteristics of bush league.
Vanney could be OK ( or not ), but we should want to be best, and that is not how it is done.

[Areathrasher]

As in case with Nelsen, Vanney is a smooth talker, and a student of the game.
But if he joined an existing business he would be given a junior position, and not a project leader role. Even if a project leader position was vacant, he would not get it-- business would look for a person with pedigree.
Trying to rationalize that others do that, may still be characteristics of bush league.
Vanney could be OK ( or not ), but we should want to be best, and that is not how it is done.

You're contradicting yourself here.

[Mattsp71]

That is changing as we speak. Salaries are going up, travel is getting better, and why people assume foreign managers can't rap their head around the requirements of travel and adjust I it, I have no idea. That is not rocket science.

The failure rate for coaches like Vanney is still significant. The sample size of foreign coaches is small. Backe was not that bad, neither was de Los Cabos despite the Fire not doing much. The facade dies a little bit all the time.

This is no different than MLS pre-Kreis. What would you have argued then?

if you get the chance their is video of Backe at the SuperDraft and he had no idea what was going on, it was Richie Williams that was pulling the strings. Thierry Henry will make a good coach and he does understand MLS.

[Oldtimer]

As in case with Nelsen, Vanney is a smooth talker, and a student of the game.
But if he joined an existing business he would be given a junior position, and not a project leader role. Even if a project leader position was vacant, he would not get it-- business would look for a person with pedigree.
Trying to rationalize that others do that, may still be characteristics of bush league.
Vanney could be OK ( or not ), but we should want to be best, and that is not how it is done.

Looking for a guy with pedigree? So you've got Bruce, Sigi, and Dutch thinks OZ would do? They are not coming here. Who else? Show me this miracle non-existent winning coach who is not foreign, has first team MLS experience, and is not a washed-up MLS 1.0 coach who can't adjust to the modern era.

Like Jeremy Loome points out, most MLS winning teams grow their coaches, they don't just splash cash. If Vanney were available, I'd expect you'd find 2-3 teams that would be interested. That wasn't the case with Mariner, or with Schallibaum when he left Montreal.


if you get the chance their is video of Backe at the SuperDraft and he had no idea what was going on, it was Richie Williams that was pulling the strings. Thierry Henry will make a good coach and he does understand MLS.

Which is further evidence that foreign coaches don't work well in MLS.

[starter]

Looking for a guy with pedigree? So you've got Bruce, Sigi, and Dutch thinks OZ would do? They are not coming here. Who else? Show me this miracle non-existent winning coach who is not foreign, has first team MLS experience, and is not a washed-up MLS 1.0 coach who can't adjust to the modern era.
Like Jeremy Loome points out, most MLS winning teams grow their coaches, they don't just splash cash. If Vanney were available, I'd expect you'd find 2-3 teams that would be interested. That wasn't the case with Mariner, or with Schallibaum when he left Montreal.
Which is further evidence that foreign coaches don't work well in MLS.

I subscribe to idea that MLS moving closer to the world football, and would not be requiring any MLS credentials when choosing a manager. I view MLS knowledge as a form of protectionism maintained by those who get to benefit from it.

[Relja]

Grab Radomir Antic :).

[ag futbol]

Looking for a guy with pedigree? So you've got Bruce, Sigi, and Dutch thinks OZ would do? They are not coming here. Who else? Show me this miracle non-existent winning coach who is not foreign, has first team MLS experience, and is not a washed-up MLS 1.0 coach who can't adjust to the modern era.

Like Jeremy Loome points out, most MLS winning teams grow their coaches, they don't just splash cash. If Vanney were available, I'd expect you'd find 2-3 teams that would be interested. That wasn't the case with Mariner, or with Schallibaum when he left Montreal.



Which is further evidence that foreign coaches don't work well in MLS.
There is no reason why we couldn't get Zambrano. The narrative that only Arena and Sigi are elite and nobody else is worth chasing is false.

[Yohan]

I subscribe to idea that MLS moving closer to the world football, and would not be requiring any MLS credentials when choosing a manager. I view MLS knowledge as a form of protectionism maintained by those who get to benefit from it.
MLS will always be an alien creature with a single entity and byzantine rules

[jloome]

There is no reason why we couldn't get Zambrano. The narrative that only Arena and Sigi are elite and nobody else is worth chasing is false.

That may have more to do with Zambrano and some of the player-related shenanigans that used to go on in the league; one KC fan online told me he'd clearly been frozen out by the league for his role in bringing in players. But then, you'd expect if that was the case he'd know himself and not make a public deal of getting another MLS gig, which he did in august. So who knows.

[starter]

MLS will always be an alien creature with a single entity and byzantine rules
I foresee more finesse teams with addition of Orlando and NY, which should improve overall league level, and we need invest in the right places, not in a couple of primadonnas, but in the football culture.
Vanney, as much as I like him, is a one of a dollar a dozen ex-players with no experience. I could see Danny Dichio or Jimmy B ( he has 1 win as a coach in MLS :) ) easily instead of him.
We should look on what is common between MLS and world football, and not on how we are different.

[Yohan]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KY0DtIqflG4

does this guy know exactly what's going on in his team?

[dutch]

Old timer did you not see the article I posted. Mls soccer.com did an article with oz in august. He wants to come back to mls. He Is totally available to tfc. How many times are people gonna quote the "not reinvent the wheel speech" you can listen to the audio but you don't have to drink the Kool aid. They want us to think van ney is the guy because frankly they don't want to spend more money and look more irresponsible.

[jloome]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KY0DtIqflG4

does this guy know exactly what's going on in his team?

Yes.

[prizby]

Find me a foreign coach who has done truly well in MLS without having played/coached in North America before. No? Well that's your answer.

Gary Smith won MLS Cup in 2010

[molenshtain]

never mind...

[Oldtimer]

Gary Smith won MLS Cup in 2010
Odd that they got rid of him the following year... but maybe he's the one exception.

However, all those complaining about Vanney's supposed lack of experience would never have hired him because he was like Nelsen, an ex-player with ZERO coaching experience before coaching Colorado.

[Yohan]

Odd that they got rid of him the following year... but maybe he's the one exception.

However, all those complaining about Vanney's supposed lack of experience would never have hired him because he was like Nelsen, an ex-player with ZERO coaching experience before coaching Colorado.
Gary Smith is an oddball hire, because he never really expected to end up in Colorado, just circumstance of events ended up with him becoming the manager when Clavijo got fired. He was suppose to be working for Arsenal as a scout at the time.

And his contract didn't get renewed because Rapids FO suck balls and are full of morons. Smith wasn't brilliant, but he kept Rapids as a mid table team, and won an MLS Cup. But that was only achieved after Smith was in charge for 3 seasons.

Smith went on to manage Stevenage in League One, but got sacked and haven't had a job since 2013. Played some simple English style football. Most of you don't want him as manager lol.

[Hamilton_Red]

This is as dumb a myth as there is..foriegn coaches can't do well in MLS. There are very few coaches or people for that matter who understand the crazy mls drafts. A good coach who understands football is the priority..hiring a nerd like Bez to understand the cap and draft issues is secondary. Tactics...motivation...chemistry...some leadership to attract the best players. I think it would be the bestmoney TFc spent to put down a Million a year for a world class coach.

[dutch]

"Find me a foreign coach who has done truly well in MLS without having played/coached in North America before. No? Well that's your answer."

"Gary Smith won MLS Cup in 2010"

"They fired him the next year, dosent count"......ok

[Yohan]

"Find me a foreign coach who has done truly well in MLS without having played/coached in North America before. No? Well that's your answer."

"Gary Smith won MLS Cup in 2010"

"They fired him the next year, dosent count"......ok
Rapids didn't fire Gary Smith...

[MightyDM]

Again, why?

We've seen what works in other places. Vanney has his 'a' license, has a few years as an assistant; when he was at LA, Bruce Arena said he'd be a great coach someday. And tactically, he seems to know what he's talking about, which is definitely a first here. He's also blunt and honest in assessments and doesn't seem to be playing politics.

If people react based on the end of this season, the debacle just starts all over again.

i agree that Vanney speaks well. So far, though, his apparent knowledge doesn't translate onto the field. Remember, if he is here all of next year, he still will not have the head coaching experience by the end of next season that Nelsen had when he was fired.

[dutch]

If he stays, I dont want us to spend a a month and a half below 8th doin the aron winter "wait for it...wait for it......fuck!"
us giving him a chance is just that. One real good chance.
I dont want to hear bez justify his faith in a coach when he's losing, when truthfully its only because the season is not mid way yet.
He gets to talk to bez all winter, he gets his buttload of superdraft picks, he gets his own full preseason. thats it a real opportunity and chance
We stay below 8th for 8 games straight at any time, thats enough for me.

[OgtheDim]

This is as dumb a myth as there is..foriegn coaches can't do well in MLS.....

So even though it been pointed out to you that foreign coaches have not done well, you still call it a myth?

I get people are ticked off at the season that has passed, but chucking out reality is not helpful.

[Oldtimer]

This is as dumb a myth as there is..foriegn coaches can't do well in MLS. There are very few coaches or people for that matter who understand the crazy mls drafts. A good coach who understands football is the priority..hiring a nerd like Bez to understand the cap and draft issues is secondary. Tactics...motivation...chemistry...some leadership to attract the best players. I think it would be the bestmoney TFc spent to put down a Million a year for a world class coach.

Calling it a "myth" doesn't make it true. If you look at the supporters' comments over the years for the US teams whenever a foreign coach experiment is tried, they say it because that's the record. Your argument is exactly why the Galaxy hired Ruud Gullit.

So Gary Smith is unemployed? Funny how no MLS side wants him. If you'll remember, that cup run was more of a fluke of a good run rather than a consistently good team. In fact, it was held up as a reason why MLS should switch to single table instead of playoffs on this very board.

We'll need a better example than Gary Smith to say that foreign coaches can do well in MLS. I have a scientific approach: I'll believe it when I see it, not just take a blind leap of faith that spending money will solve TFC's problems. If you go by the record, keeping Vanney around for several years should get us into the playoffs, statistically speaking.

[Areathrasher]

Gary Smith, brought into the club to run the academy and ends up first team coach.

Sounds familiar.

[Kingvikingstad]

Unless there's an obvious hire, I'm more and more okay with Vanney as our coach next year.

It's hard to judge a coach who took over a team in shambles, losing non-stop before he was hired and with a best player who just didn't give a shit.

The tactics he tried to set up are almost irrelevant because it can take half a season to do that even after a full training camp.

I assess him without a knock against him for missing the playoffs because it's really not his fault. It would have been a miracle if they made the playoffs.

The question then is, with all the respective coaches available and pretending Vanney never coached a half-season here already - is he the best hire?

[Ossington Mental Youth]

Unless there's an obvious hire, I'm more and more okay with Vanney as our coach next year.

It's hard to judge a coach who took over a team in shambles, losing non-stop before he was hired and with a best player who just didn't give a shit.

The tactics he tried to set up are almost irrelevant because it can take half a season to do that even after a full training camp.

I assess him without a knock against him for missing the playoffs because it's really not his fault. It would have been a miracle if they made the playoffs.

The question then is, with all the respective coaches available and pretending Vanney never coached a half-season here already - is he the best hire?

im with you. re your question someone posed the following 1) If TFC was a new entry to the league, didnt have the history it does, would Vanney be a valid candidate 2) If other teams in the league were looking for a new coach and Vanney was available would they select him. I suspect the answer for both would be yes

[Ultra & Proud]

It's hard to judge a coach who took over a team in shambles, losing non-stop before he was hired and with a best player who just didn't give a shit.
But easier to judge one who inherited a team securely in the playoffs, who were on a bad run partially due to injuries, and make them worse down the stretch when fully healthy. From that alone I question his ability to lead. Tactics perhaps but inspiring a team and being the leader, I don't see it from that sample size which will be almost 1/3 of a season after we lose this Saturday. Like I said earlier, even Mariner had a solid dead cat bounce. Vanney couldn't even inspire that. With him at the helm next year is lost already and this thread should be aimed at finding manager #10 and we should have about another 8 months before we need to hire a new one.

[MightyDM]

Unless there's an obvious hire, I'm more and more okay with Vanney as our coach next year.

It's hard to judge a coach who took over a team in shambles, losing non-stop before he was hired and with a best player who just didn't give a shit.

The tactics he tried to set up are almost irrelevant because it can take half a season to do that even after a full training camp.

I assess him without a knock against him for missing the playoffs because it's really not his fault. It would have been a miracle if they made the playoffs.

The question then is, with all the respective coaches available and pretending Vanney never coached a half-season here already - is he the best hire?

Vanney inherited a team in third place that had played at a .500 clip in its previous few games. To say it was in a shambles is simply not factual. It was in third place. Yes there were lots of injuries and yes the team was not doing as well as pre World Cup, but overstating the position isn't helpful. In this context, it is impossible to say anything positive about Vanney's coaching ability.

[Ultra & Proud]

Vanney inherited a team in third place that had played at a .500 clip in its previous few games. To say it was in a shambles is simply not factual. It was in third place. Yes there were lots of injuries and yes the team was not doing as well as pre World Cup, but overstating the position isn't helpful. In this context, it is impossible to say anything positive about Vanney's coaching ability.
The only positives known about Vanney is that he slightly improved set piece taking and gives a good interview. On the negative side, our offense is slightly worse than before and the defense far worse. Since he didn't wholesale change our tactics, the whole 're-adjustment' to new tactics excuse isn't viable.

Furthermore, when Nelsen was sacked Bez said we aren't in the excuses business and all Nelsen had was excuses (it's true though). So what about Vanney? All I hear are excuses. Not blaming refs and such like Nelsen (also true) but blaming the squad and the previous regime. That would be the same regime that had the team in the playoffs until being removed. I would rather Bez and Vanney just keep quiet if they are both staying as I am tired of the blaming the past regime for initial failures and then using 'gelling' as the excuse when failure continues the next season. I have heard these excuses far more than I ever needed to and if anything, that is our team identity; firing management, player turnover, and endless excuses. The TFC way.

[Initial B]

Again, why?.
Why not? MLS teams pick players from the lower divisions, why not coaches? If coaches can extract performance from players at that level, then I think their likelihood of getting that performance from MLS calibre players should be just as good. Didn't TFC try to get Adrian Heath from Orlando at one point?


If people react based on the end of this season, the debacle just starts all over again.
I agree with this. I'm willing to give Vanney another season to see if he can turn things around. We've been through 8 years of futility, what's another year? And who knows, maybe he'll surprise us. I told myself I'd give TFC 10 years to make the playoffs before finding another club to support.

[PopePouri]

Vanney inherited a team in third place that had played at a .500 clip in its previous few games. To say it was in a shambles is simply not factual. It was in third place. Yes there were lots of injuries and yes the team was not doing as well as pre World Cup, but overstating the position isn't helpful. In this context, it is impossible to say anything positive about Vanney's coaching ability.

Right but Vanney hasn't had an inform Defoe who was the only reason we were in that place. Without him, we're an average to below-average MLS side with no creativity in midfield and no depth at CB.

Let me ask a question, under Nelsen's tenure, when last did we completely dominate a side or win by more than 2 goals?

[glaze]

Whatever it takes to keep Bradley.

If he likes Vanney, then give him a full season. If he wants change, then find the right coach.

[Ultra & Proud]

Let me ask a question, under Nelsen's tenure, when last did we completely dominate a side or win by more than 2 goals?
Not many but then again, how many times have we done that under Vanney? Also, under Nelsen were we totally dominated very few times and for the most part were in all of our matches until the end, including road matches. The same cannot be said for Vanney and the squad is the same. This wasn't an Aron Winter record player turnover situation either.

[starter]

I understand the sentiment to keep Vanney since that what what apparently Bezbatchenko told him.
But I bet you Bez was expecting more from the move in the short term, and just might be realizing that Vanney might not be the man.
I do not believe Bez should be making these decisions, and that is where we need a experienced football figure ( with or without MLS experience ).

[Ultra & Proud]

FWIW I think Nelsen's TFC wasn't the right way to go. It was failing under Nelsen but under Vanney it went from failing to failure. With a real, experienced tactical assistant Nelsen may have been able to succeed but with Ol' Fran there, nope. Not enthused by Vanney's lackluster staff either.

[dutch]

But easier to judge one who inherited a team securely in the playoffs, who were on a bad run partially due to injuries, and make them worse down the stretch when fully healthy. From that alone I question his ability to lead. Tactics perhaps but inspiring a team and being the leader, I don't see it from that sample size which will be almost 1/3 of a season after we lose this Saturday. Like I said earlier, even Mariner had a solid dead cat bounce. Vanney couldn't even inspire that. With him at the helm next year is lost already and this thread should be aimed at finding manager #10 and we should have about another 8 months before we need to hire a new one.

Thats exactly how I feel and why I started this thread. people tend to think he had a team in shambles and only a couple games. NO he had OVER a 1/4 of a season and got only 2 wins!?!?
This is all about finding coach #10

[dutch]

I understand the sentiment to keep Vanney since that what what apparently Bezbatchenko told him.
But I bet you Bez was expecting more from the move in the short term, and just might be realizing that Vanney might not be the man.
I do not believe Bez should be making these decisions, and that is where we need a experienced football figure ( with or without MLS experience ).

Thats what I was thinking and to tell you the truth
If he isnt questioning his own move after this, We are in a whole world of pain to come.

[dutch]

I agree with this. I'm willing to give Vanney another season to see if he can turn things around. We've been through 8 years of futility, what's another year? And who knows, maybe he'll surprise us. I told myself I'd give TFC 10 years to make the playoffs before finding another club to support.

jeesus! "whats another year?!?!?" I dont know how to answer this, whats a year of TFC worth to you? seems like not very much. to me its at least 1/9 of our entire history, Id kill for a summer filled with great soccer. also one more year hung over our heads by the rest of MLS and anyone else who watches, I'd give my left nut to shake that. it means the world to me and it should to bez that we get out of this hole. by any means possible. no more free years for anybody

[jloome]

Rapids didn't fire Gary Smith...

They rejected his contract option. Same thing.

[jloome]

The only positives known about Vanney is that he slightly improved set piece taking and gives a good interview. On the negative side, our offense is slightly worse than before and the defense far worse.

I just don't know what team you were watching. Really. Our defense was a shambles in Nelsen's last ten games; and our offense under Vanney actually approach competent at getting shots on net, even if it didn't finish them. Under Nelsen, we never looked like a threat unless Defoe got into isolation somehow. I couldn't disagree more with an assessment.

[jloome]

jeesus! "whats another year?!?!?" I dont know how to answer this, whats a year of TFC worth to you? seems like not very much. to me its at least 1/9 of our entire history, Id kill for a summer filled with great soccer. also one more year hung over our heads by the rest of MLS and anyone else who watches, I'd give my left nut to shake that. it means the world to me and it should to bez that we get out of this hole. by any means possible. no more free years for anybody

If it means the world to you, look at what works in the rest of the league and have the patience to emulate it. This team will NEVER be turned around just by a coaching hire. It's a multi-year process.

[OgtheDim]

Its funny how on the internet everybody but ourselves has selective amnesia.

[Ultra & Proud]

I just don't know what team you were watching. Really. Our defense was a shambles in Nelsen's last ten games; and our offense under Vanney actually approach competent at getting shots on net, even if it didn't finish them. Under Nelsen, we never looked like a threat unless Defoe got into isolation somehow. I couldn't disagree more with an assessment.
Nelsen's last 10 matches gave us some points and tight matches minus the Revs debacle. We were sliding but that slide directly coincided with Caldwell and Morrow going down to injury. Yes chances were not great but the amount of goals scored was higher stats wise under Nelsen. Not many clean sheets against and no Defoe for a few of those matches too. Under Vanney we've had many clean sheets against and I really don't care how many shots go towards goal. Look at that Houston match, what 26 shots, 7 or so on target? That's called wasting your chances and wasting possession. You have players firing from all over the pitch proves nothing except no ideas on how to work the ball low and/or counter with pace. UNder Vanney we beat a defensively frail Portland and Chivas. Enough said about that.

[Areathrasher]

Nelsen's last 10 matches gave us some points and tight matches minus the Revs debacle. We were sliding but that slide directly coincided with Caldwell and Morrow going down to injury. Yes chances were not great but the amount of goals scored was higher stats wise under Nelsen. Not many clean sheets against and no Defoe for a few of those matches too. Under Vanney we've had many clean sheets against and I really don't care how many shots go towards goal. Look at that Houston match, what 26 shots, 7 or so on target? That's called wasting your chances and wasting possession. You have players firing from all over the pitch proves nothing except no ideas on how to work the ball low and/or counter with pace. UNder Vanney we beat a defensively frail Portland and Chivas. Enough said about that.

And blowouts in DC and KC

[starter]

Just hypothetically, who would more likely our players listen to ( including 'stars' ), Floro or Vanney?

[Ultra & Proud]

And blowouts in DC and KC
Places where that isn't uncommon (for us especially) and we were sporting bad line ups due to injury.

Not sure why Vanney gets a free pass. The sample size is reasonable and there is little positive to look towards. Based on these 10 matches, what is it I am supposed to be looking forward to in 2015? Is this supposed to drum up my excitement for buying more season tix? Or is selling the continually easy sell of turnover, cheap talk, and hope enough to satisfy most? It was for me 7 times already but enough is enough. The longer we lap up this pablum we consistently get fed from the brass and accept 'promises' as truths then we will always be in this boat. I refuse to give them the easy road on this anymore.

[Areathrasher]

Places where that isn't uncommon (for us especially) and we were sporting bad line ups due to injury.

Not sure why Vanney gets a free pass. The sample size is reasonable and there is little positive to look towards. Based on these 10 matches, what is it I am supposed to be looking forward to in 2015? Is this supposed to drum up my excitement for buying more season tix? Or is selling the continually easy sell of turnover, cheap talk, and hope enough to satisfy most? It was for me 7 times already but enough is enough. The longer we lap up this pablum we consistently get fed from the brass and accept 'promises' as truths then we will always be in this boat. I refuse to give them the easy road on this anymore.

No offense bud but i'm not sure what you are trying to say here, you're sick of the turnover so want Vanney out? (More turnover)

[ag futbol]

. This team will NEVER be turned around just by a coaching hire. It's a multi-year process.
I agree.. But

We are at a juncture where we are rebuilding anyway. It is a great opportunity to for once get the right people in place. I think it's much more reasonable to be patient with someone who has done it before - be it here or elsewhere in te world - as opposed to hang our hat on people who we wouldn't be interested in if they weren't already sitting in their seats.

People who have never succeeded can't hold on in this environment when things go poorly. We're saying we need stability but this is a plan that doesn't offer any.

[jloome]

People who have never succeeded can't hold on in this environment when things go poorly.

I think you're confusing them "not surviving" with them being fired by MLSE.

I'd also note that none of those people have been recently MLS players or staff. That model is working at EVERY OTHER TEAM doing well. The only two exceptions, LA and Seattle, have lifelong MLS winning coaches at their helm.

There has never been a case in this league where going outside proved to be the smart move. Hudson, Zambrano, Yallop -- every one of these guys had U.S. Soccer ties from their playing days.

In fact, the only guy without a U.S. soccer background to win the cup is Gary Smith... and he was a scout for Arsenal who was brought in, like Vanney, to setup Colorado's youth program.

For once, let's do what everyone else does. Let's not try to get someone "better" from a higher league. It has never worked before, it has led to disastrous turnover after disastrous turnover. Enough. A little Einstein logic, please. Let's stop repeating what doesn't work.

[Ultra & Proud]

No offense bud but i'm not sure what you are trying to say here, you're sick of the turnover so want Vanney out? (More turnover)

I am sick of our cycle of hiring inexperienced managers who are really no more than interim managers, just waiting to be dumped. That's the thing here. It's too easy. Most are really lame ducks before they even start. Problem is that they will turnover the squad and then hold fast for 18 months tops and then we do it again. Never have we used our resources ($$$) to hire a big time manager and giver him full control of personel, tactics, everything. Winter was close but he had Mariner and that wasn't a good working relationship. He was also inexperienced.

The thing is; are we so naive that we actually figure that by consistently hiring these types of managers that we will be bound to land the next Kreis? Or do they see it to be easier to hire this type of manager because they are nobodies and can be dumped at a moments notice and no one will care because the carrot of hope will be dangled yet again and the vast majority will go right for that carrot? Nowadays I am not sure.

Bottom line for me; I don't want Vanney, an interim without the tag manager turning over the squad to fit his tactics and beliefs when he is most likely on the chopping block next summer, barring us coming out strong and not riding the 'gelling' excuse for too long. We have never tried a successful experienced manager yet. Get one and give him a good chunk of Defoe's salary along with meddling free control of the squad. Then ride that out. I would have more faith in that because crap shooting on the inexperienced is what has lead us to being the farm team for the rest of the leagues better sides.

[ag futbol]

Just to add on to my last post. People have brought up the other inexperienced coaches in this league, well look where they've started: places where soccer is not as centre stage as it is here.

Which franchises are closest to TFC in this league? Seattle, LA, RBNY, NYFC (next year), maybe Portland. The rest are smaller markets or places where soccer is far less relevant. None of these teams, except RBNY, hired or have hired inexperienced people.

That should be the benchmark, if we are obsessed with using one. Not a place like NE or CLB where nobody is paying attention and the cost of failure is lower.

[ag futbol]

I think you're confusing them "not surviving" with them being fired by MLSE.

I'd also note that none of those people have been recently MLS players or staff. That model is working at EVERY OTHER TEAM doing well. The only two exceptions, LA and Seattle, have lifelong MLS winning coaches at their helm.

There has never been a case in this league where going outside proved to be the smart move. Hudson, Zambrano, Yallop -- every one of these guys had U.S. Soccer ties from their playing days.

In fact, the only guy without a U.S. soccer background to win the cup is Gary Smith... and he was a scout for Arsenal who was brought in, like Vanney, to setup Colorado's youth program.

For once, let's do what everyone else does. Let's not try to get someone "better" from a higher league. It has never worked before, it has led to disastrous turnover after disastrous turnover. Enough. A little Einstein logic, please. Let's stop repeating what doesn't work.
With the exception of Nelson, where it's arguable, the others were on a road to nowhere and the organization simply did the obvious. Bad plans that had to be undone. Some of them quit on their own or let it be known TFC could shove the job up their ass rather than take an extension. Who would you have liked to have kept longer? What would it have accomplished?

[Ultra & Proud]

Just to add on to my last post. People have brought up the other inexperienced coaches in this league, well look where they've started: places where soccer is not as centre stage as it is here.

Which franchises are closest to TFC in this league? Seattle, LA, RBNY, NYFC (next year), maybe Portland. The rest are smaller markets or places where soccer is far less relevant. None of these teams, except RBNY, hired or have hired inexperienced people.

That should be the benchmark, if we are obsessed with using one. Not a place like NE or CLB where nobody is paying attention and the cost of failure is lower.
Add to that the fact that no team in the history of this league has had a run of consistent failure like us.

I don't want to take a big risk anymore. All new hirings are of course a risk and internationals are spotty at best but I want us to minimize that risk based on a legit track record. Not a Winter selling a foreign idea one or another selling grit and being hard to break down because he was a defender one either. How about get someone who has done something for a professional side both tactically and by building a squad that has had some success in a league preferably with some financial restraints? You know, some proof that they know what they are doing before giving them the job like most other jobs. Not just talk and words. If this was year 4 then sure. We can wait and build and we did that. And then tore it down and repeated continually. With the state of the squad and the mental state of the fans who are attached to this team I think it's time to do what has a better, tangible shot to succeed and not just keep rolling the dice year after year.

This is the time to do it and get it right enough that we don't regress next season and build from there. With Vanney honestly how many of you would be willing to bet on that?

[Areathrasher]

Fair enough. I'm in Jloome's do it the MLS way camp.

[dutch]

I'm in for giving the 2nd highest winning mls coach in history and highest goals in a season record holder for both galaxy and NY
Another kick at the ball. He wants mls back and we owe it to our selves to give it to him. He is the most successfull mls coach we would have ever had. Vanney had his chance, he got 10 games, he dosent justify another 30. Zambrano has never gone 2 wins in 9 games in his whole career...
I just don't get it

[Ultra & Proud]

Fair enough. I'm in Jloome's do it the MLS way camp.
I was too but I think we've burned that bridge too many times now. I think they need to hire a manager that will be more difficult to just dump on a whim that what we've had in the past.

[Canary10]

Toronto is not a place where a green coach can come in and grow and learn with the team. That might work in smaller markets, but not here. Pay the money and get an undisputed top flight coach.

[Areathrasher]

I was too but I think we've burned that bridge too many times now. I think they need to hire a manager that will be more difficult to just dump on a whim that what we've had in the past.

Well I don't think a bridge can be burned if they haven't built one in the first place I.E they never did the MLS way properly.

And getting a top-flight coach will be no easy feat. You're only going to get someone that's washed out somewhere else or is on a downward trajectory/close to retirement.

[Canary10]

Well I don't think a bridge can be burned if they haven't built one in the first place I.E they never did the MLS way properly.

And getting a top-flight coach will be no easy feat. You're only going to get someone that's washed out somewhere else or is on a downward trajectory/close to retirement.

Won't be easy, but we'll spend money on anything!!

[Ultra & Proud]

Well I don't think a bridge can be burned if they haven't built one in the first place I.E they never did the MLS way properly.

And getting a top-flight coach will be no easy feat. You're only going to get someone that's washed out somewhere else or is on a downward trajectory/close to retirement.
Maybe but with the way the upper management usually is, do you think someone like Vanney will be around long enough to properly grow as manager? And if the growth rate is slow and full of what we have seen these past 10 matches, will there even be a half full BMO after expansion? Also, since our squad is proven to be mentally weak, do you think a guy like Vanney can command the respect of the players much less that of top flight DP level talent?

[Ultra & Proud]

Won't be easy, but we'll spend money on anything!!
It'd be hard as they are doing well but GBS is doing a good job managing Lanus in Argentina. Someone like that who now has a few years of managerial experience and knows MLS would be a good fit.

[Oldtimer]

Just to add on to my last post. People have brought up the other inexperienced coaches in this league, well look where they've started: places where soccer is not as centre stage as it is here.

Which franchises are closest to TFC in this league? Seattle, LA, RBNY, NYFC (next year), maybe Portland. The rest are smaller markets or places where soccer is far less relevant. None of these teams, except RBNY, hired or have hired inexperienced people.

That should be the benchmark, if we are obsessed with using one. Not a place like NE or CLB where nobody is paying attention and the cost of failure is lower.

Preki was experienced. He was even coach of the year one year.


I'm in for giving the 2nd highest winning mls coach in history and highest goals in a season record holder for both galaxy and NY
Another kick at the ball. He wants mls back and we owe it to our selves to give it to him. He is the most successfull mls coach we would have ever had. Vanney had his chance, he got 10 games, he dosent justify another 30. Zambrano has never gone 2 wins in 9 games in his whole career...
I just don't get it


I know you started this thread to advocate for your guy. It doesn't seem anyone is biting, but football is a matter of opinions, isn't it?

I'm for keeping Vanney over any MLS 1.0 guy, no matter how great. MLS at that time was equivalent to USL Pro today.

I'll keep Vanney over almost any foreign coach.

If you give me Bruce or Sigi, I'll dump Vanney in an instant. This BTW, is Molinaro's opinion too: keep Vanney unless you can get one of the great 2-3 MLS managers.

[Ultra & Proud]

I'm for keeping Vanney over any MLS 1.0 guy, no matter how great. MLS at that time was equivalent to USL Pro today.
I agree. No MLS 1.0 managers either. And no CMNT peripheral coaches or ex-players thank you. We have enough history filled with failure without adding some more on the pile.

[Areathrasher]

Maybe but with the way the upper management usually is, do you think someone like Vanney will be around long enough to properly grow as manager? And if the growth rate is slow and full of what we have seen these past 10 matches, will there even be a half full BMO after expansion? Also, since our squad is proven to be mentally weak, do you think a guy like Vanney can command the respect of the players much less that of top flight DP level talent?
If you listen to the latest TSNFC podcast, DeVos says that Vanney is well liked and respected by all the players that he has talked to. He also stresses that he talked to some that aren't in the team at the moment.

His first 10 games weren't great by any means but its a small sample with extenuating circumstances. I want to see how this side looks after a preseason with him.

Also, I mentioned this before, but a season with a potential lockout and 2 month road trip to start the season isn't the best time to bring a new guy in. Esp a forgien one.

[ag futbol]

Preki was experienced. He was even coach of the year one year.
.
He also had Mo above him, something that would prevent practically anyone from being effective. But point taken, experience / success taken in isolation without critically thinking about whether it can be repeated doesn't mean much. Nobody wants to hire Osorio and he took a team to a MLS cup final. Everyone knew it was a fluke.

I just think letting someone learn on the job under the guise of "this is the best chance we've got" is not the thing to do. We can poach someone else's formerly inexperienced coach, who now has experience. We can look elsewhere asides from strictly MLS (NCAA, USL, whatever). We can think hard about what qualities would allow an experienced foreigner succeed here.

I disagree the idea some Green MLS insider makes up for all his shortcomings by being familiar with the league. I will take someone who tried and failed, like say Jesse Marsh, over someone who is supposed to get it right from the get go.

Hiring inexperienced people like Vanney is as risky of a proposition as you can get.

[starter]

When Moe's job was on the line, he chose to bring in Preki to save his gig, not a rookie coach.
When money are on the line, people tend to make more sensible decisions.
Preki was not the worst that had happened to this club. Not saying we need Preki, but all in favor of experience.
Afraid that Bez is not mature enough to see it this way.

[Richard]

Should rename the thread to President/GM/Coach Shopping.

Seriously what has Bez done in his career to deserve the power he now has as GM? Okay. He is a top notch lawyer who can decipher the mysterious MLS rules, but what talent evaluation skills does he have? What has he legitimately done in that past that can suggest he knows how to acquire players through connections, and identify talent. I have les confidence in him than Vanney although not by much.

I think with TL on the way out it would be wise to get a real football president(with no GM tag) and actually keep him around unlike Payne.

[molenshtain]

Should rename the thread to President/GM/Coach Shopping.

Seriously what has Bez done in his career to deserve the power he now has as GM? Okay. He is a top notch lawyer who can decipher the mysterious MLS rules, but what talent evaluation skills does he have? What has he legitimately done in that past that can suggest he knows how to acquire players through connections, and identify talent. I have les confidence in him than Vanney although not by much.

I think with TL on the way out it would be wise to get a real football president(with no GM tag) and actually keep him around unlike Payne.

He had a very good draft and has arguably won all four trades he's been apart of?

[prizby]

Odd that they got rid of him the following year... but maybe he's the one exception.

However, all those complaining about Vanney's supposed lack of experience would never have hired him because he was like Nelsen, an ex-player with ZERO coaching experience before coaching Colorado.

if i remember correctly front office and smith didn't see eye-to-eye in terms of how to build the roster

i'm in the experienced coach or bust camp right now, unless someone can really convince me otherwise

[MightyDM]

No-one has mentioned John Carver.

[PopePouri]

No-one has mentioned John Carver.

As a success?

[ag futbol]

He had a very good draft and has arguably won all four trades he's been apart of?
That's a wash at this point because we have no idea what part of that is Nelsen and what part of it is Bez. Media has spun it both ways. Someone reported he was against all the trades but he was overruled by Leiweke who backed Nelsen.

But at face value, given the philosophy he's parroting with Vanney I doubt moves like Oduro, Warner, etc... Were on his agenda. Those are not the guys you get to play the style of football they talk about or have been trying to play at the end of the season.

[molenshtain]

That's a wash at this point because we have no idea what part of that is Nelsen and what part of it is Bez. Media has spun it both ways. Someone reported he was against all the trades but he was overruled by Leiweke who backed Nelsen.

But at face value, given the philosophy he's parroting with Vanney I doubt moves like Oduro, Warner, etc... Were on his agenda. Those are not the guys you get to play the style of football they talk about or have been trying to play at the end of the season.

The only guy who reported the trades were Nelsen's idea is a an awful sports journalist, routinely get's things wrong and from one source. Most assume it was Nelsen who fed him that story.

And regardless of how these players will fit in under Vanney's plans, Bez has shown a knack for acquiring domestic talent. We got deeper in four spots by trading very little away. I personally think He'll have another really good off-season with all the cap-space and draft picks we have.

[Oldtimer]

Hiring inexperienced people like Vanney is as risky of a proposition as you can get.

Again, he's not inexperienced, he was an assistant at Chivas. It's like having the VP of a company become the Prez, it's not that big of a leap.

[bones]

Again, he's not inexperienced, he was an assistant at Chivas. It's like having the VP of a company become the Prez, it's not that big of a leap.

So VP of Nortel becoming Prez of Blackberry then? :)

[Canary10]

To me there are only really 4-6 guys that have had enough experience and success in this league that they would command immediate undisputed authority and respect (the MLS Mourinho if you will): Sigi, Bruce Arena, Bob Bradley, and probably Dom Kinnear (who has already been poached) and probably Jason Kreis (who is obviously going nowhere). At a stretch, maybe Peter Vermes too. Outside of that, pretty much any other coach will have some downside. If it's not one of those, I don't think it's worth the conversation.

[Wull]

Is everyone forgetting that Vanney was brought in because the squad was supposedly better than they were showing? He was going to get more out of them, they were better than their form suggested etc.

I have seen nothing from Bezbatchenko to suggest that his decision-making is worth hanging my hat on, Vanney included.

[ag futbol]

Again, he's not inexperienced, he was an assistant at Chivas. It's like having the VP of a company become the Prez, it's not that big of a leap.
One year as an assistant at the worst outfit in the league followed by working in an academy does not make you experienced.

[Detroit_TFC]

No-one has mentioned John Carver.

I'd take Carver back in terms of what he can offer but the things that made him nuts before are even worse in the league now (batty refs, interfering league office, etc). It's certainly possible with eyes wide open he might be able to deal with it now but it's a risk. If he seriously put himself forward for coming back, I'd ask him a hundred times, "can you deal with MLS bs?"

[Canary10]

Is everyone forgetting that Vanney was brought in because the squad was supposedly better than they were showing? He was going to get more out of them, they were better than their form suggested etc.

I have seen nothing from Bezbatchenko to suggest that his decision-making is worth hanging my hat on, Vanney included.

Totally agree. I think Nelsen's firing was a huge mistake Bez should pay for, but I won't disagree with anyone who says the team was under-performing under him. A good coach would have gotten much more out of the team in the last ten games. Somehow Vanney instead managed to bring us to new depths of under-performing.

But you know how it works around this team. When the facts don't fit the original narrative, you change the narrative. So now it's not an under-performing team. Now it's a team that was never that good to begin with. (Which kinda makes you wonder how Nelsen got so much out of a bad bunch of players early on, but that's a whole other narrative).

[TFC Tifoso]

No-one has mentioned John Carver.

and no one should either in my humble opinion......Carver had arguably the most talented TFC roster, prior to this year, and couldn't get the job done just the same......in addition to his complaining (refs, or who can forget his famous quote, "Get me my DP or I'm going home."), and he ultimately did take his ball and go home......good guy apparently to some.......but not a very good coach for us......

[Oldtimer]

To me there are only really 4-6 guys that have had enough experience and success in this league that they would command immediate undisputed authority and respect (the MLS Mourinho if you will): Sigi, Bruce Arena, Bob Bradley, and probably Dom Kinnear (who has already been poached) and probably Jason Kreis (who is obviously going nowhere). At a stretch, maybe Peter Vermes too. Outside of that, pretty much any other coach will have some downside. If it's not one of those, I don't think it's worth the conversation.

Agreed. That's my perspective, as well (I don't think I'd give a chance to Vermes, though).
If you don't get one of those guys, stick with Vanney. Anything else reeks of desperation, which is never the way to make a good decision.

Don't forget that Vancouver tried to get a major guy but failed. Just having $$$ isn't enough (and Vancouver had enough $$$ to hire one of these guys, plus a nicer climate than Toronto).

[Oldtimer]

Billy Beane as an MLS manager?

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2014/oct/17/billy-beane-soccer-baseball-oakland?CMP=twt_gu

[Wull]

Totally agree. I think Nelsen's firing was a huge mistake Bez should pay for, but I won't disagree with anyone who says the team was under-performing under him. A good coach would have gotten much more out of the team in the last ten games. Somehow Vanney instead managed to bring us to new depths of under-performing.

But you know how it works around this team. When the facts don't fit the original narrative, you change the narrative. So now it's not an under-performing team. Now it's a team that was never that good to begin with. (Which kinda makes you wonder how Nelsen got so much out of a bad bunch of players early on, but that's a whole other narrative).

That run of games over the summer was killer due to injuries and the sheer number of games. We all complained about the schedule at the time and I argued with journalists covering the team that the games in hand wouldn't amount to much due to it. I'm no huge admirer of Nelsen but you should only change it if you can upgrade and a youth coach isn't a proven upgrade right now. (Vanney may well go on to be a good coach but this is not the environment for us to sit with two inexperienced guys that have been part of yet another front office shitshow and hope that they eventually figure it out because their showings to date have been poor)

Throw the money and full autonomy at Lagerway and see what happens, he'd probably have to bring in a rookie coach but if it's people he's seen for years on the RSL staff we'd at least have a cohesive unit and some experience guiding us for once.

P.S. I'm shocked that Payne's name hasn't been tossed around seeing as Leiweke is leaving

[Areathrasher]

Payne is working for USSF and NCAA

[Oldtimer]

Throw the money and full autonomy at Lagerway and see what happens, he'd probably have to bring in a rookie coach but if it's people he's seen for years on the RSL staff we'd at least have a cohesive unit and some experience guiding us for once.


One might think Lagerway would be the answer, but he's actually just a capologist and contract person. His training is as a lawyer. Kreis was promoted to coach by the owner/operator of the club, not by Lagerway. Kreis selected the players for Lagerway to obtain. Lagerway actually knows much less about players and coaches than Bez.

[Wull]

One might think Lagerway would be the answer, but he's actually just a capologist and contract person. His training is as a lawyer. Kreis was promoted to coach by the owner/operator of the club, not by Lagerway. Lagerway actually knows much less about players and coaches than Bez.

He brought through Kreis' assistant who'd been there for years and was able to keep the ship sailing on quite well. If he can get someone he knows and has worked with that was there for a while, I'd be more comfortable with that than what we currently have (although having a similar guy who had been here for years would be better but we keep churning through those too so why not do it one more time so everyone is on the same page?)

[Areathrasher]

One might think Lagerway would be the answer, but he's actually just a capologist and contract person. His training is as a lawyer. Kreis was promoted to coach by the owner/operator of the club, not by Lagerway. Kreis selected the players for Lagerway to obtain. Lagerway actually knows much less about players and coaches than Bez.

Really? Where did you see this, ive been reading up on him lately and haven't seen any of this.

Regardless, Largerway got his law degree after finishing his MLS playing career so he isn't just a lawyer. Also he is rumored to want a president position if you go by what RSL fans say.

[Kingvikingstad]

It wouldn't keep what you two had written, likely because it was too long, but this is in reply to MightyDM and Ultra & Proud.

Nine game windows.

Nelsen

T 1-1 (H)
T 2-2 (A)
L 2-1 (H)
L 3-0 (A)
W 2-0 (A)
W 3-2 (A)
L 4-1 (A)
T 2-2 (H)
L 3-0 (H)

OVERALL: 2-4-3 (9 PTS)
HOME: 0-2-2 (2 PTS)
AWAY: 2-2-1 (7 PTS)

PPG = 1
12GF
19GA


Vanney

L 1-0 (A)
L 2-0 (H)
T 1-1 (A)
W 3-0 (H)
W 3-2 (H)
L 3-0 (A)
L 1-0 (H)
L 3-1 (A)
T 1-1 (H)

OVERALL: 2-5-2 (8 PTS)
HOME: 2-2-1 (7 PTS)
AWAY: 0-3-1 (1 PT)

PPG = 0.88
8GF
14GA

I've been a TFC fan for as long as they've been around, I know what the collapse looks like and the team was headed for a collapse. Regardless of which coach you look at it wasn't good enough. Excuse my hyperbole, but my point was that we were in an extended rut, which is true. If you're asking whether Nelsen should have been fired in the first place at that point in the season despite our current run of form, I don't think so. Does that inherently mean everything that resulted afterwards was Vanney's fault? No. Beyond the semantics of how badly we were doing before Nelsen was fired and the discussion of what could have been, I was (and am) aiming my thoughts more at how to judge Vanney.

How well can we judge a coach that took over a team that had their star striker unhappy and not playing, second star striker injured soonafter, captain injured around the same time, and having no say on the roster assembled. I mean, I haven't even gotten into how hard it is to change an entire team's tactical mindset midseason, from playing hoofball to a more progressive, modern game. Van Gaal is playing with some of the most intelligent footballers in the world (yes I know his tactics are more difficult) and it's taking him time, with a training camp to boot. Should Van Gaal be given all the blame for United's early season inconsistency - I'd say definitely not.

For all these reasons I place limited value on the third of the season Vanney has been here. The results haven't improved no, but they haven't been worse either which suggests to me that he's had very little effect.
Ultimately I'm left with the same point I made initially. Is Vanney good enough (results this season aside) to be the manager at TFC next year? Basically, if you were unaware Nelsen was fired and heard Vanney was hired, would you be happy with the hiring?

Based on his credentials, I don't think he's all that bad unless we're prying a big name within MLS or trying to get an established, successful manager outside of MLS (i.e. Bob Bradley). Unless we get a high profile manager, I'm okay with Vanney as the fallback.

[Ultra & Proud]

I'm okay with Vanney as the fallback.
After 8 years of shit and all the off the field stuff we get subjected to, I expect a f*ck of a lot more than settling on a fall back at the most important off field position the team has.

[OgtheDim]

After 8 years of shit and all the off the field stuff we get subjected to, I expect a f*ck of a lot more than settling on a fall back at the most important off field position the team has.


Ur not going to get it.


I hear you. I would love to have one of Bradley, Schmid or Arena.

Its not going to happen this season.

It might in 2015.

[Kingvikingstad]

so do I. I know exactly what you're saying and I agree, I'm just trying to be realistic as well. I'm not going to get my hopes up anymore.

[Oldtimer]

He brought through Kreis' assistant who'd been there for years and was able to keep the ship sailing on quite well. If he can get someone he knows and has worked with that was there for a while, I'd be more comfortable with that than what we currently have (although having a similar guy who had been here for years would be better but we keep churning through those too so why not do it one more time so everyone is on the same page?)

You don't say? He hired as a head coach someone who had no head coaching experience, just experience as an assistant, and it turned out well? In other words, he hired someone like Vanney, someone who some people think is totally unsuitable.

So tell me again why you want to replace Bez.

Relevant to the discussion is what the Dynamo is looking for in a coach:


The coach presumably must have head coaching experience, but Canetti will interview current Dynamo assistants Wade Barrett (http://www.chron.com/search/?action=search&channel=sports%2Fdynamo&inlineLink=1&searchindex=property&query=%22Wade+Barrett%22), Steve Ralston (http://www.chron.com/search/?action=search&channel=sports%2Fdynamo&inlineLink=1&searchindex=property&query=%22Steve+Ralston%22) and Tim Hanley (http://www.chron.com/search/?action=search&channel=sports%2Fdynamo&inlineLink=1&searchindex=property&query=%22Tim+Hanley%22) next week if they seek the job. All three assistants declined to comment through a Dynamo public relations assistant this week.

In other words, they will promote a current assistant, or get a coach from the outside with experience. This is what winning teams do.

http://www.chron.com/sports/dynamo/article/Canetti-sets-requirements-for-Dynamo-coach-5838566.php

[Wull]

You don't say? He hired as a head coach someone who had no head coaching experience, just experience as an assistant, and it turned out well? In other words, he hired someone like Vanney, someone who some people think is totally unsuitable.

So tell me again why you want to replace Bez.

Relevant to the discussion is what the Dynamo is looking for in a coach:



In other words, they will promote a current assistant, or get a coach from the outside with experience. This is what winning teams do.

http://www.chron.com/sports/dynamo/article/Canetti-sets-requirements-for-Dynamo-coach-5838566.php

Again, if we had a guy who had been here for years, knew the setup, knew the players, the politics etc. was well liked and respected then I would be all about hiring him. Greg Vanney doesn't fit that bill and, again, he may turn out to be a good coach but this is not the club to be cutting your teeth at right now. If we had a few years of relative calm, some moderate success etc. then okay BUT you can't say any of that so I do not want him or bezbatchenko here. It's really that simple to me.

[Oldtimer]

It wouldn't keep what you two had written, likely because it was too long, but this is in reply to MightyDM and Ultra & Proud.

Nine game windows.

Nelsen

T 1-1 (H)
T 2-2 (A)
L 2-1 (H)
L 3-0 (A)
W 2-0 (A)
W 3-2 (A)
L 4-1 (A)
T 2-2 (H)
L 3-0 (H)

OVERALL: 2-4-3 (9 PTS)
HOME: 0-2-2 (2 PTS)
AWAY: 2-2-1 (7 PTS)

PPG = 1
12GF
19GA


Vanney

L 1-0 (A)
L 2-0 (H)
T 1-1 (A)
W 3-0 (H)
W 3-2 (H)
L 3-0 (A)
L 1-0 (H)
L 3-1 (A)
T 1-1 (H)

OVERALL: 2-5-2 (8 PTS)
HOME: 2-2-1 (7 PTS)
AWAY: 0-3-1 (1 PT)

PPG = 0.88
8GF
14GA

I've been a TFC fan for as long as they've been around, I know what the collapse looks like and the team was headed for a collapse. Regardless of which coach you look at it wasn't good enough. Excuse my hyperbole, but my point was that we were in an extended rut, which is true. If you're asking whether Nelsen should have been fired in the first place at that point in the season despite our current run of form, I don't think so. Does that inherently mean everything that resulted afterwards was Vanney's fault? No. Beyond the semantics of how badly we were doing before Nelsen was fired and the discussion of what could have been, I was (and am) aiming my thoughts more at how to judge Vanney.

How well can we judge a coach that took over a team that had their star striker unhappy and not playing, second star striker injured soonafter, captain injured around the same time, and having no say on the roster assembled. I mean, I haven't even gotten into how hard it is to change an entire team's tactical mindset midseason, from playing hoofball to a more progressive, modern game. Van Gaal is playing with some of the most intelligent footballers in the world (yes I know his tactics are more difficult) and it's taking him time, with a training camp to boot. Should Van Gaal be given all the blame for United's early season inconsistency - I'd say definitely not.

For all these reasons I place limited value on the third of the season Vanney has been here. The results haven't improved no, but they haven't been worse either which suggests to me that he's had very little effect.
Ultimately I'm left with the same point I made initially. Is Vanney good enough (results this season aside) to be the manager at TFC next year? Basically, if you were unaware Nelsen was fired and heard Vanney was hired, would you be happy with the hiring?

Based on his credentials, I don't think he's all that bad unless we're prying a big name within MLS or trying to get an established, successful manager outside of MLS (i.e. Bob Bradley). Unless we get a high profile manager, I'm okay with Vanney as the fallback.

Good analysis. So only 1 point difference? That is not significant.
So Vanney is as good a fallback as any.

[Initial B]

^^ And to me, Wull, it's simple that getting rid of TB and/or Vanney will not produce that relative calm. Vanney has an endorsement from Bruce Arena, has been an Assistant Coach with Chivas, and has been in the organization for at least a couple of months before becoming coach so he is familiar with the lay of the land.

We all need to understand: There is no quick fix to what ails TFC. There is no coach/exec in shining armor that can save this franchise. The one thing this club has never tried is to leave things status quo for more than 18 months. That's what's got us into this mess in the first place. We may as well grin and bear it for the next two years and see if they've finally got it right by then. I understand that there might not be any fans left by that time, but I don't see what other choice we have that gets us off the hamster-wheel of futility other than to just STOP.

[Canary10]

^ And to me it's simple that getting rid of TB and/or Vanney will not produce that relative calm. Vanney has an endorsement from Bruce Arena, has been an Assistant Coach with Chivas, and has been in the organization for at least a couple of months before becoming coach so he is familiar with the lay of the land.

We all need to understand: There is no quick fix to what ails TFC. There is no coach/exec in shining armor that can save this franchise. The one thing this club has never tried is to leave things status quo for more than 18 months. That's what's got us into this mess in the first place. We may as well grin and bear it for the next two years and see if they've finally got it right by then. I understand that there might not be any fans left by that time, but I don't see what other choice we have that gets us off the hamster-wheel of futility other than to just STOP.

There is no calm to preserve. Calm went out the window with 10 games to go in the season. Getting rid of Vanney will have zero effect on team stability.

[NolbertoS]

I'd hire Osieck as TFC's president. You can't go wrong with a man with great international credentials. As a coach, I'd get on the phone with Martin Rennie. TFC needs a man that has made the playoffs at least and knows the MLS Rules. At least with Martin Rennie, the TFC ship will steer in a good direction, and after 2 years of him, than you can get a big name coach to guide TFC to the MLS championships. Or how about Wilmer Cabrera in Chivas USA. He has done a decent job with the shitty side he was put in charge of. He has played in the Colombian National team, knows Central and South America pretty well and if MLSE gave him an open book check, would probably do wonders at TFC. I think we should realize that our objective next year is just making the playoffs, after Year 2 and 3, than we can talk about winning the MLS championship. Might as well start correcting the TFC ship properly.

Edit: I'd also relegated Bez to just a bean counter now. The man isn't experienced enough to evaluate talent and players. He's more of a numbers guy.

[Ultra & Proud]

There is no calm to preserve. Calm went out the window with 10 games to go in the season. Getting rid of Vanney will have zero effect on team stability.
This is it. When he was hired he should have been straight up called interim. You don't fire a manager with a team in the playoffs with 10 matches left and permanently replace him with an unknown at this level. It is ridiculous. We all know Nelsen was failing so an interim manager would be fine and then offer the obligatory end of season review before deciding a new manager. Naming him the permanent manager, with him never managing a match yet, was very foolish. We'd may as well start just signing lower level players without trials.

[Wull]

^^ And to me, Wull, it's simple that getting rid of TB and/or Vanney will not produce that relative calm. Vanney has an endorsement from Bruce Arena, has been an Assistant Coach with Chivas, and has been in the organization for at least a couple of months before becoming coach so he is familiar with the lay of the land.

We all need to understand: There is no quick fix to what ails TFC. There is no coach/exec in shining armor that can save this franchise. The one thing this club has never tried is to leave things status quo for more than 18 months. That's what's got us into this mess in the first place. We may as well grin and bear it for the next two years and see if they've finally got it right by then. I understand that there might not be any fans left by that time, but I don't see what other choice we have that gets us off the hamster-wheel of futility other than to just STOP.

I'll grin and bear it if they get me someone that has shown even a modicum of success in that position. It's far easier to sell me on patience when someone has prior outcomes to point to rather than the latest "what if he ends up okay?" rookie

[OgtheDim]

There is no calm to preserve. Calm went out the window with 10 games to go in the season. Getting rid of Vanney will have zero effect on team stability.

Actually, apart from the flare up today over Henry, which largely is media/supporter driven, the players have indicated things are calm compared to what they were.

People need to seperate supporter angst from within the clubhouse feelings.

[OgtheDim]

I'd hire Osieck as TFC's president. ....


MLSE won't touch him. His comments about women make him unhirable in North America.

[Ultra & Proud]

There is no quick fix to what ails TFC. There is no coach/exec in shining armor that can save this franchise. The one thing this club has never tried is to leave things status quo for more than 18 months.
If the status quo was good or had an obvious upside then sure. No one can show me any evidence that Vanney will succeed based on what we've seen already. If we had an experienced manager who succeeded elsewhere then sure, growing pains are acceptable. With a nobody like Vanney, one good bout of growing pains will equal manager #10 and another roster overhaul in the course of a season. Then we can have manager #10 saying, "How come we don't have a player like that (Gilberto post trade)?" and we can tell him that we traded him for allocation and draft pick. :facepalm:

[OgtheDim]

If the status quo was good or had an obvious upside then sure.


That's the unbreachable divide here.

People who believe Vanney isn't good enough to justify the stability

vs.

People who believe Vanney isn't bad enough to justify the instability.

Bez seems to have made his choice. It remains to be seen if MLSE decides otherwise. But, the chances of Vanney staying here into next season would be quite high.

[Canary10]

Actually, apart from the flare up today over Henry, which largely is media/supporter driven, the players have indicated things are calm compared to what they were.

People need to seperate supporter angst from within the clubhouse feelings.

I wouldn't worry about the players. A month of dating doesn't a marriage make.

[OgtheDim]

I wouldn't worry about the players. A month of dating doesn't a marriage make.

So, what do you mean by team stability?

[Ultra & Proud]

That's the unbreachable divide here.

People who believe Vanney isn't good enough to justify the stability

vs.

People who believe Vanney isn't bad enough to justify the instability.

Bez seems to have made his choice. It remains to be seen if MLSE decides otherwise. But, the chances of Vanney staying here into next season would be quite high.
We should re-word Lieweke's early quote: Why can't we be not bad enough?

The double negative makes it.

[starter]

Re: Osieck

MLSE won't touch him. His comments about women make him unhirable in North America.

Bring him in !

[Canary10]

So, what do you mean by team stability?

He's been there too short a time. We already created the instability be changing the coach with 10 games to go. Anything TFC does now is inconsequential to stability.

[OgtheDim]

He's been there too short a time. We already created the instability be changing the coach with 10 games to go. Anything TFC does now is inconsequential to stability.

I understand that view, but a lot of people who follow MLS don't see it that way.

[Canary10]

I understand that view, but a lot of people who follow MLS don't see it that way.

For the record, I wouldn't bother bother changing unless it was for Sigi, Bob Bradley or Bruce Arena. Other than that it's six of one, half dozen of the other.

[OgtheDim]

For the record, I wouldn't bother bother changing unless it was for Sigi, Bob Bradley or Bruce Arena. Other than that it's six of one, half dozen of the other.

That's my view, actually.

[Areathrasher]

Great post Kingvikingstad :thumbsup:

[MightyDM]

As a success?
No one has mentioned Carver at all. And he was quoted as being interested in coming back.

[MightyDM]

I'd take Carver back in terms of what he can offer but the things that made him nuts before are even worse in the league now (batty refs, interfering league office, etc). It's certainly possible with eyes wide open he might be able to deal with it now but it's a risk. If he seriously put himself forward for coming back, I'd ask him a hundred times, "can you deal with MLS bs?"

That all makes sense.

[MightyDM]

Totally agree. I think Nelsen's firing was a huge mistake Bez should pay for, but I won't disagree with anyone who says the team was under-performing under him. A good coach would have gotten much more out of the team in the last ten games. Somehow Vanney instead managed to bring us to new depths of under-performing.

But you know how it works around this team. When the facts don't fit the original narrative, you change the narrative. So now it's not an under-performing team. Now it's a team that was never that good to begin with. (Which kinda makes you wonder how Nelsen got so much out of a bad bunch of players early on, but that's a whole other narrative).

This is what I have been trying to say. With one small change - firing Nelsen when he was fired was the mistake. End of season, if they did not make the playoffs, would have been different.

[MightyDM]

It wouldn't keep what you two had written, likely because it was too long, but this is in reply to MightyDM and Ultra & Proud.

Nine game windows.

Nelsen

T 1-1 (H)
T 2-2 (A)
L 2-1 (H)
L 3-0 (A)
W 2-0 (A)
W 3-2 (A)
L 4-1 (A)
T 2-2 (H)
L 3-0 (H)

OVERALL: 2-4-3 (9 PTS)
HOME: 0-2-2 (2 PTS)
AWAY: 2-2-1 (7 PTS)

PPG = 1
12GF
19GA


Vanney

L 1-0 (A)
L 2-0 (H)
T 1-1 (A)
W 3-0 (H)
W 3-2 (H)
L 3-0 (A)
L 1-0 (H)
L 3-1 (A)
T 1-1 (H)

OVERALL: 2-5-2 (8 PTS)
HOME: 2-2-1 (7 PTS)
AWAY: 0-3-1 (1 PT)

PPG = 0.88
8GF
14GA

I've been a TFC fan for as long as they've been around, I know what the collapse looks like and the team was headed for a collapse. Regardless of which coach you look at it wasn't good enough. Excuse my hyperbole, but my point was that we were in an extended rut, which is true. If you're asking whether Nelsen should have been fired in the first place at that point in the season despite our current run of form, I don't think so. Does that inherently mean everything that resulted afterwards was Vanney's fault? No. Beyond the semantics of how badly we were doing before Nelsen was fired and the discussion of what could have been, I was (and am) aiming my thoughts more at how to judge Vanney.

How well can we judge a coach that took over a team that had their star striker unhappy and not playing, second star striker injured soonafter, captain injured around the same time, and having no say on the roster assembled. I mean, I haven't even gotten into how hard it is to change an entire team's tactical mindset midseason, from playing hoofball to a more progressive, modern game. Van Gaal is playing with some of the most intelligent footballers in the world (yes I know his tactics are more difficult) and it's taking him time, with a training camp to boot. Should Van Gaal be given all the blame for United's early season inconsistency - I'd say definitely not.

For all these reasons I place limited value on the third of the season Vanney has been here. The results haven't improved no, but they haven't been worse either which suggests to me that he's had very little effect.
Ultimately I'm left with the same point I made initially. Is Vanney good enough (results this season aside) to be the manager at TFC next year? Basically, if you were unaware Nelsen was fired and heard Vanney was hired, would you be happy with the hiring?

Based on his credentials, I don't think he's all that bad unless we're prying a big name within MLS or trying to get an established, successful manager outside of MLS (i.e. Bob Bradley). Unless we get a high profile manager, I'm okay with Vanney as the fallback.

I don't see how you can come to that conclusion on those facts. The only possible optimistic conclusion is that Vanney is a totally unknown quality. And if you look at the last five games of Nelsen, the only losses were against two of the best in the east, so arguably things may have been turning around.

The stats raise something else I wondered about all year - the team did far better on the road under Nelsen than at home, and I think he has the best road record ever. Funny that this was not matched by home performances. Wonder why.

[MightyDM]

You don't say? He hired as a head coach someone who had no head coaching experience, just experience as an assistant, and it turned out well? In other words, he hired someone like Vanney, someone who some people think is totally unsuitable.

So tell me again why you want to replace Bez.

Relevant to the discussion is what the Dynamo is looking for in a coach:



In other words, they will promote a current assistant, or get a coach from the outside with experience. This is what winning teams do.

http://www.chron.com/sports/dynamo/article/Canetti-sets-requirements-for-Dynamo-coach-5838566.php

vanney may have potential. It's just that there is no evidence of it. Unfortunately, the evidence that exists is the opposite.

[MightyDM]

Good analysis. So only 1 point difference? That is not significant.
So Vanney is as good a fallback as any.

By that standard Nelsen should be the coach.

[Oldtimer]

vanney may have potential. It's just that there is no evidence of it. Unfortunately, the evidence that exists is the opposite.

It does, does it?

So let's look at Jason Kreis' first 9 games then:

T 3-3 (H)
T 1-1 (A)
L 2-1 (A)
T 0-0 (A)
T 0-0 (A)
L 0-1 (H)
L 3-2 (A)
W 2-1 (H)
L 1-2 (H)

OVERALL: 1-4-4 (7 PTS)
HOME: 1-2-1 (4 PTS)
AWAY: 0-2-3 (3 PTS)

PPG=0.78
7GF
16GA

By the standard of 9 games, Nelsen and Vanney are both greater than one of the greatest coaches MLS has seen so far.

Conclusion: anyone who is basing their evaluation of Vanney on 9 games may want to reconsider their methodology! You can't tell anything at all based on 9 games.

So how did RSL become one of the best teams in MLS? They picked a coach and stuck with him, even though he had a losing record at first. You probably don't want to hear this, but it's the Toronto "win now" mentality that has made this team lose for 8 seasons.

[Initial B]

so how did rsl become one of the best teams in mls? They picked a coach and stuck with him, even though he had a losing record at first. You probably don't want to hear this, but it's the toronto "win now" mentality that has made this team lose for 8 seasons.
qft +1!

[FRANKIE65]

it does, does it?


You probably don't want to hear this, but it's the toronto "win now" mentality that has made this team lose for 8 seasons.

bingo!!!

[jazzy]

So how did RSL become one of the best teams in MLS? They picked a coach and stuck with him, even though he had a losing record at first. You probably don't want to hear this, but it's the Toronto "win now" mentality that has made this team lose for 8 seasons.

and all Toronto teams , unfortunately . Always wondered if behind the scenes Toronto pro athletes get immensely frustrated with the intense microscope we always put them under . Which of course destroys a winning environment before it even starts . Patience is so severely compromised here. Maybe it's justified , but at one point we'll have to find some patience . ..................and there is the curse of the Maple Leafs .....oy vey .

[molenshtain]

So how did RSL become one of the best teams in MLS? They picked a coach and stuck with him, even though he had a losing record at first. You probably don't want to hear this, but it's the Toronto "win now" mentality that has made this team lose for 8 seasons.


and all Toronto teams , unfortunately . Always wondered if behind the scenes Toronto pro athletes get immensely frustrated with the intense microscope we always put them under . Which of course destroys a winning environment before it even starts . Patience is so severely compromised here. Maybe it's justified , but at one point we'll have to find some patience . ..................and there is the curse of the Maple Leafs .....oy vey .

And big cities like NY, LA and Chicago don't have similar win now mentalities? our teams are just collectively managed incompetently. That's the only difference.

[MightyDM]

It does, does it?

So let's look at Jason Kreis' first 9 games then:

T 3-3 (H)
T 1-1 (A)
L 2-1 (A)
T 0-0 (A)
T 0-0 (A)
L 0-1 (H)
L 3-2 (A)
W 2-1 (H)
L 1-2 (H)

OVERALL: 1-4-4 (7 PTS)
HOME: 1-2-1 (4 PTS)
AWAY: 0-2-3 (3 PTS)

PPG=0.78
7GF
16GA

By the standard of 9 games, Nelsen and Vanney are both greater than one of the greatest coaches MLS has seen so far.

Conclusion: anyone who is basing their evaluation of Vanney on 9 games may want to reconsider their methodology! You can't tell anything at all based on 9 games.

So how did RSL become one of the best teams in MLS? They picked a coach and stuck with him, even though he had a losing record at first. You probably don't want to hear this, but it's the Toronto "win now" mentality that has made this team lose for 8 seasons.

i agree with you, and that's why it was wrong to fire Nelsen. But there isn't any evidence to suggest Vanney will succeed, and there is evidence to suggest he won't - the play of the team, for example.

[dutch]

I know you started this thread to advocate for your guy. It doesn't seem anyone is biting, but football is a matter of opinions, isn't it?


I created the thread because I believe there's many coaches who are better equipped for the task.
I never made it to advocate OZ at all. Actually when I started, I was looking at recently fired coaches like jens keller from schalke and paulo di canio from sunderland, albert ferrer from cordoba. they can all be faulted, everybody can. Di canio is a proud fascist apparently, but as I kept looking I couldnt honestly find anyone who fit better to our needs than OZ. He will make it back to MLS very soon and he will be successful imo

[ensco]

So many years of this "Kreis needed a year" point being made, we get it already.

RSL had 7 or 8 future all stars on their 2008 roster. Do we have that?

[dutch]

I'd take Carver back in terms of what he can offer but the things that made him nuts before are even worse in the league now (batty refs, interfering league office, etc). It's certainly possible with eyes wide open he might be able to deal with it now but it's a risk. If he seriously put himself forward for coming back, I'd ask him a hundred times, "can you deal with MLS bs?"

Carvers been assistant manager at newcastle for a few years, he is following his dream as a toon. he was the right guy with the wrong roster lol

[molenshtain]

Carvers been assistant manager at newcastle for a few years, he is following his dream as a toon. he was the right guy with the wrong roster lol

The roster wasn't Carver's problem. He should have walked himself and the team into the playoffs with that roster.

[dutch]

Agreed. That's my perspective, as well (I don't think I'd give a chance to Vermes, though).
If you don't get one of those guys, stick with Vanney. Anything else reeks of desperation, which is never the way to make a good decision.

Don't forget that Vancouver tried to get a major guy but failed. Just having $$$ isn't enough (and Vancouver had enough $$$ to hire one of these guys, plus a nicer climate than Toronto).

you'd give vanney a shot before peter vermes? if he was actually dumb enough to come here, I mean. thats crazy and ridiculous, to me anyways. hey did you get free pizza at a meet the gm event? lol

[dutch]

The roster wasn't Carver's problem. He should have walked himself and the team into the playoffs with that roster.

I know we all love that 2009 team. but our defence was really pathetic. only 3 teams let in more goals and we had stefan frei in goal.
than again we think this is our best roster yet and again only 4 teams let in more goals and we had a really great joe bendik.
We all know defence has been our weakness every year but looking back we have never fixed this problem. great goalies but we're a sieve
cant blame a coach for that.

[Oldtimer]

you'd give vanney a shot before peter vermes? if he was actually dumb enough to come here, I mean. thats crazy and ridiculous, to me anyways. hey did you get free pizza at a meet the gm event? lol
I didn't go, lol.
Actually on second thought I would give Vermes a shot. I just think he wouldn't like it here and we'd have the coaching equivalent of the Defoe situation.

[OgtheDim]

I didn't go, lol.
Actually on second thought I would give Vermes a shot. I just think he wouldn't like it here and we'd have the coaching equivalent of the Defoe situation.

Vermes has a Mom who hangs around?

That might explain why he's the most cranky b**tard in the league. (I'd hate him - his tactics are OK, but he creates the most whiny bunch of players in this league)

[Kingvikingstad]

i agree with you, and that's why it was wrong to fire Nelsen. But there isn't any evidence to suggest Vanney will succeed, and there is evidence to suggest he won't - the play of the team, for example.

Simple question. How long do you believe it takes a manager to change the tactics of a team within MLS? How long in midseason?

I'll tell you what occurs to me when looking at Nelsen's last 9 and Vanney's first 9 games.

Generally speaking. A team playing at home is more likely to keep possession, control the run of play and be offensive in their mindset; the result of which is often that they concede less goals. On the other hand, a good road record often means you've set up your tactics well to play on the counter. Being bad on the road often means your team is fragile mentally and your tactical setup is too offensive for your talent level, while being bad at home usually means you lack creativity to break teams down because they take less chances in their defensive form.

With these beliefs and having watched the games, I'd suggest Vanney is a far better tactician offensively, yet tried to play too similarly away - though this may have been due to needing any points necessary down the stretch - while Nelsen lacked offensive creativity he was better at setting up his counter tactics for away points.

GOALS SCORED AT HOME:

NELSEN: 4 scored in 4 games during the 9 game stretch.
VANNEY: 7 scored in 5 games during 9 game stretch.

GOALS SCORED AWAY:

NELSEN: 8 scored in 5 games during the 9 game stretch
VANNEY: 2 scored in 4 games during the 9 game stretch

From doing this exercise, it seems to support Vanney's team being better at breaking teams down offensively with creativity, while Nelsen was far better at recognizing the team speed and using that to his advantage on the counter away. The problem was that Nelsen's teams played the same way at home and squandered possession or didn't know what to do with it when the other teams gave them possession and bunkered.

While the execution of Vanney's tactics will not be close to high level from just a 9 game stretch midseason, it does give you an idea into the mindset of how he wants to play home and away.

[Ultra & Proud]

GOALS SCORED AT HOME:

NELSEN: 4 scored in 4 games during the 9 game stretch.
VANNEY: 7 scored in 5 games during 9 game stretch.

6 of Vanney's 7 goals came in matches against the sub NASL level Chivas and the defensively very poor Timbers. Toss in the 7th against the worst team in the east and one of the worst in the league and there you go. Basic stats don't always tell the whole story.

[MightyDM]

Vanney seems like a decent man. But he is not stability, experience or any of that. He is essentially an untried coach, with a poor record for a few games. We should be doing a proper search and if he is the best we can get, then hire him.

[Oldtimer]

6 of Vanney's 7 goals came in matches against the sub NASL level Chivas and the defensively very poor Timbers. Toss in the 7th against the worst team in the east and one of the worst in the league and there you go. Basic stats don't always tell the whole story.

... and Kreis' home loss came against the 2007 TFC, certainly the worst team ever in MLS history (remember that goal-less streak?). Selective stats works both ways, I'm afraid.

My point is, forget the stats, look at Vanney as a new hire. If we can't get a coach with first team experience and a decent record, is he a reasonable choice? I would say yes.

If we can get a top notch alternative, fine. Vancouver tried that and failed, Robbo's been OK for them.

[ag futbol]

So many years of this "Kreis needed a year" point being made, we get it already.

RSL had 7 or 8 future all stars on their 2008 roster. Do we have that?
I'd rather just point out all the guys who have failed post Kreis (where Kreis was used as a justification to hire in the first place) and leave it at that.

Doing nothing in the name of stability is not a strategy that allows you to be competitive.

[jazzy]

and all Toronto teams , unfortunately . Always wondered if behind the scenes Toronto pro athletes get immensely frustrated with the intense microscope we always put them under . Which of course destroys a winning environment before it even starts . Patience is so severely compromised here. Maybe it's justified , but at one point we'll have to find some patience . ..................and there is the curse of the Maple Leafs .....oy vey .


And big cities like NY, LA and Chicago don't have similar win now mentalities? our teams are just collectively managed incompetently. That's the only difference.

maybe ...but doubtful ,...Toronto is easily the hockey capitol of the world , ( wait and see if they ever win). Their fans live and die for the team and they do not have as many diversions as New York , LA and Chicago for that matter . There is always another diversion , football for example in the states.......soccer , hockey at least are minor in the US relatively . No , we generally have a inferiority complex to the US in many areas , therefore the greater identification with team on a personal level and demand for our teams to succeed . This is transformed towards the team intensely game after game . Yes our teams are mismanaged in many ways but , NOTHING is overnight . But make no mistake , MLSE sucks all of this in and creates false hope every year with new promises , thats why we got Defoe , not the best striker by far , anywhere ....but he certainly was paid like it . Do you think RSL would even survive here , doubt it . I mean , they can have patience , it is Salt lake for gods sake . If teams in New York , L.A. or Chicago are not successful , the fans simply say FU...and do not show up .

[Fort York Redcoat]

Guys don't mind my edit. Just trying to get your quotes up. No content changed.

[Yohan]

I'd go for this guy, except he likely won't leave Dallas

Oscar Pareja (46)
-Just finishing his 3rd year as manager. The odds of TFC being able to pry Pareja out of Dallas is very slim. He's a career FC Dallas man, long time player and assistant manager. He left Colorado Rapids just to go to Dallas, where his family has lived for a long time.
Having said that, Pareja is going to win MLS Cup sooner or later. He combines his knowledge of MLS with South American flair (ex Colombian international). Likes going after young, but talented South American DPs. If not for injury, Mauro Diaz would have been MVP IMO. Likes using AM as focus of the attack. He's made the playoffs 2 out of 3 seasons, and he missed 2012 because Rapids were in transition.
Pareja has an eye for young talent. Traditionally, FC Dallas does well in the draft, and I'm going to guess it's because Pareja has his input. As a manager, he had 4 first round picks. They are Tony Cascio, DeShorn Brown, Dillon Powers and Tesho Akindele. I'd say all of them are legit MLS players, though Cascio had an injury all season. The bucketload of HG players in Dallas are starting to pan out as well, and I'd say Pareja has a hand in that too.

[flamehawk]

I'd go for this guy, except he likely won't leave Dallas

Oscar Pareja (46)
-Just finishing his 3rd year as manager. The odds of TFC being able to pry Pareja out of Dallas is very slim. He's a career FC Dallas man, long time player and assistant manager. He left Colorado Rapids just to go to Dallas, where his family has lived for a long time.
Having said that, Pareja is going to win MLS Cup sooner or later. He combines his knowledge of MLS with South American flair (ex Colombian international). Likes going after young, but talented South American DPs. If not for injury, Mauro Diaz would have been MVP IMO. Likes using AM as focus of the attack. He's made the playoffs 2 out of 3 seasons, and he missed 2012 because Rapids were in transition.
Pareja has an eye for young talent. Traditionally, FC Dallas does well in the draft, and I'm going to guess it's because Pareja has his input. As a manager, he had 4 first round picks. They are Tony Cascio, DeShorn Brown, Dillon Powers and Tesho Akindele. I'd say all of them are legit MLS players, though Cascio had an injury all season. The bucketload of HG players in Dallas are starting to pan out as well, and I'd say Pareja has a hand in that too.

Always looked highly on Pareja. If we were to spend big money to poach someone within MLS, he would be the one.

[spe18]

I'm not sure if this has been discussed yet, but who is the president of this team, that would monitor what the general manager and head coach are doing?

[Yohan]

I'm not sure if this has been discussed yet, but who is the president of this team, that would monitor what the general manager and head coach are doing?
Tim L. lol

another reason why Vanney and Bez will be around next season

[Yohan]

Just watching Vanney presser. Man, he does talk a good game.

[PopePouri]

Just watching Vanney presser. Man, he does talk a good game.

He needs a preseason.

[JuliquE]

Just watching Vanney presser. Man, he does talk a good game.
Read my mind. Came here to post the following:

Vanney is the guy.

[Areathrasher]

Just watching Vanney presser. Man, he does talk a good game.

Yup, bar playing up the fitness issues Vanney is doing really well here.

Bez didn't cover himself with glory IMO

[Areathrasher]

He's dreamy!

Lovely hair g:D

[pdubs]

Agreed. He says all the right things.

[Initial B]

It's easy to talk the talk, but can/will he walk the walk?

[Areathrasher]

It's easy to talk the talk, but can/will he walk the walk?

Only one way to find out.

*sack him and see him do it at another club*

JK

[PopePouri]

Only one way to find out.

*sack him and see him do it at another club*

JK

The TFC way.

[Yohan]

I changed my mind and going to support Greg Vanney for next season.

My main reasoning is that he's probably the best choice within the constraints TFC has right now. If MLSE had a new president right now, it's a different story. One of things the new MLSE president would have to do is get a new team president for TFC, who would then hire new GM who would hire a manager.

This is not the case. By the time MLSE gets a new president, too much time have gone by and not enough time to make a proper hiring. You'd think MLSE has until Jan to set TFC FO in order but this is not the case. MLS expansion draft, Chivas USA dispersion draft and re-entry draft are all coming in Dec. Bez and Vanney would have done all the prep work by now, and TFC has to protect the core players, as well, hopefully pick up couple of useful players during these drafts. After these drafts comes X mas break, then in Jan, final prep work for Superdraft is done, and TFC can't afford to screw that up. TFC must get at least 2 depth players who can contribute right away, with all 4 picks contributing in 2016 season.
Basically, the drafts from now till Jan 2015 sets up Vanney's team for 2015 season. Bez and Vanney are going to be a picking players that fits under their system, not someone else's. If TFC gets a new set of GM/manager after Jan, TFC is going to 2015 season with a team that's not built for the manager, and we risk the dysfunction we've often seen at TFC. (and you can bet there are going to be couple of other trades from now till start of preseason)

By having 10 games, Vanney had a good chance to assess TFC players under game conditions, and he has better idea how he wants the team to play, and better understanding of what players get which roles and which players to keep or release/trade. Any other manager will not have the benefit of this knowledge.

As much as you want to say money can buy the best of managers, this is not the case. There are very few experienced MLS 2.0 managers and most are young. The very best of them are likely staying in their current clubs. Arena is locked in LA, Schmid won the Supporter's Shield. They have been at their teams for a long time and have a team that they built, and their owners are willing to spend. Why would they come to TFC? They already make the most money out of managers in MLS. Kinnear just moved to SJ so that rules him out, and Pareja is a career Dallas man. Everyone else more or less have just a little bit more experience than Vanney and most are just as proven as Vanney, meaning, they haven't done much in their coaching careers yet.

I'm not picking Vanney for the sake of stability, but he is less risky choice, especially if you want to go with a foreign manager with no MLS experience. I've already made my thought clear on this but essentially it boils down to this. It is a huge advantage to know how MLS works. You may be a great tactician and man manager, but knowing the little intricacies of MLS does give you a little edge, especially when you have to know how to get the best out of your min wage player who is far below the quality of your starting 11. TFC might be able to convince a foreign manager to come to TFC like Guanzhou did with Marcello Lippi, but that's a rare case and I feel that most European manager would think MLS is a step down in their career, and may feel that once you go outside of Europe, it's harder to get back in.

If you're going with the rookie, Vanney is probably most qualified rookie available. He has a lot of experience as a coach with USSF especially in youth programs. He has been RSL's youth academy director. So he knows what to look for in youth players, if you want someone to build a team from youth. He has 2 years as assistant coach with Chivas USA. Not the happiest 2 years there, but at least he has that experience. And he has his USSF 'A' coaching license, as well as French FA's Elite Formation Coaching License. (same one Dichio went on) If you look at the list of candidates of that program, Vanney was picked by MLS FO to attend this program, so someone high up in MLS thinks really high of Vanney to pick him. (http://pressbox.mlssoccer.com/content/mls-and-french-football-federation-announce-partnership)

I'm as cynical as the rest of you when it comes to talks out of TFC. I want deeds not words. But watching Vanney's presser today, he convinced me that he at least has a plan, he knows how to implement that plan and what he needs to make that plan work. I highly recommend you to watch the presser when it comes out.
I wish TFC can go after more proven MLS manager, but TFC is not in a situation to make that change now. I feel it is more risky to go after a new manager later, when the success of 2015 season relies so much on everything going right. I do not feel a new manager is going to be a magic bullet solution to TFC's woes. Basically, Vanney is the least risky option IMO, so he gets my 'benefit of doubt' for 2015.

[barticusz]

Yohan, watched the presser after your post/recommendation. I will have to agree with you, I want Vanney to stay. He's our guy and we need to give him the opportunity to build his team. He needs at least two whole seasons.

I was of the opinion that his Nelson should never had been fired and I'll stick to that, just at the time of the season that it happened. I always wanted Nelson to be given a fair shot, and now I'll transfer that to Vanney. He's extremely well spoken and seems to have a great foundation. I want to see this team grow with him.

[Yohan]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRH1uXtBc6I&list=UUc1qA_64TEqAX9pnGJOO0Dw


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CLerHoeeYWw&list=UUc1qA_64TEqAX9pnGJOO0Dw

[Super]

I think it's risky to keep an unproven, inexperienced coach such as Vanney, but I have to agree that it's probably riskier to shake things up too much and go after a new president + head coach. We should therefore rally around Vanney, and give him our support for the 2015 season. Hopefully he'll be able to make the highest paid team in the league competitive enough to make the play-offs. I guess we'll have to see. But no more excuses, please. We can't keep going from season to season with endless excuses as to why we're not making the play-offs. LAST CHANCE given to a rookie, please. Hopefully Vanney is the right man for the job. It's a risk, but I doubt we can find an experienced coach to come into this mad house at this point anyway.

[JuliquE]

I changed my mind and going to support Greg Vanney for next season.

My main reasoning is that he's probably the best choice within the constraints TFC has right now. If MLSE had a new president right now, it's a different story. One of things the new MLSE president would have to do is get a new team president for TFC, who would then hire new GM who would hire a manager.

This is not the case. By the time MLSE gets a new president, too much time have gone by and not enough time to make a proper hiring. You'd think MLSE has until Jan to set TFC FO in order but this is not the case. MLS expansion draft, Chivas USA dispersion draft and re-entry draft are all coming in Dec. Bez and Vanney would have done all the prep work by now, and TFC has to protect the core players, as well, hopefully pick up couple of useful players during these drafts. After these drafts comes X mas break, then in Jan, final prep work for Superdraft is done, and TFC can't afford to screw that up. TFC must get at least 2 depth players who can contribute right away, with all 4 picks contributing in 2016 season.
Basically, the drafts from now till Jan 2015 sets up Vanney's team for 2015 season. Bez and Vanney are going to be a picking players that fits under their system, not someone else's. If TFC gets a new set of GM/manager after Jan, TFC is going to 2015 season with a team that's not built for the manager, and we risk the dysfunction we've often seen at TFC. (and you can bet there are going to be couple of other trades from now till start of preseason)

By having 10 games, Vanney had a good chance to assess TFC players under game conditions, and he has better idea how he wants the team to play, and better understanding of what players get which roles and which players to keep or release/trade. Any other manager will not have the benefit of this knowledge.

As much as you want to say money can buy the best of managers, this is not the case. There are very few experienced MLS 2.0 managers and most are young. The very best of them are likely staying in their current clubs. Arena is locked in LA, Schmid won the Supporter's Shield. They have been at their teams for a long time and have a team that they built, and their owners are willing to spend. Why would they come to TFC? They already make the most money out of managers in MLS. Kinnear just moved to SJ so that rules him out, and Pareja is a career Dallas man. Everyone else more or less have just a little bit more experience than Vanney and most are just as proven as Vanney, meaning, they haven't done much in their coaching careers yet.

I'm not picking Vanney for the sake of stability, but he is less risky choice, especially if you want to go with a foreign manager with no MLS experience. I've already made my thought clear on this but essentially it boils down to this. It is a huge advantage to know how MLS works. You may be a great tactician and man manager, but knowing the little intricacies of MLS does give you a little edge, especially when you have to know how to get the best out of your min wage player who is far below the quality of your starting 11. TFC might be able to convince a foreign manager to come to TFC like Guanzhou did with Marcello Lippi, but that's a rare case and I feel that most European manager would think MLS is a step down in their career, and may feel that once you go outside of Europe, it's harder to get back in.

If you're going with the rookie, Vanney is probably most qualified rookie available. He has a lot of experience as a coach with USSF especially in youth programs. He has been RSL's youth academy director. So he knows what to look for in youth players, if you want someone to build a team from youth. He has 2 years as assistant coach with Chivas USA. Not the happiest 2 years there, but at least he has that experience. And he has his USSF 'A' coaching license, as well as French FA's Elite Formation Coaching License. (same one Dichio went on) If you look at the list of candidates of that program, Vanney was picked by MLS FO to attend this program, so someone high up in MLS thinks really high of Vanney to pick him. (http://pressbox.mlssoccer.com/content/mls-and-french-football-federation-announce-partnership)

I'm as cynical as the rest of you when it comes to talks out of TFC. I want deeds not words. But watching Vanney's presser today, he convinced me that he at least has a plan, he knows how to implement that plan and what he needs to make that plan work. I highly recommend you to watch the presser when it comes out.
I wish TFC can go after more proven MLS manager, but TFC is not in a situation to make that change now. I feel it is more risky to go after a new manager later, when the success of 2015 season relies so much on everything going right. I do not feel a new manager is going to be a magic bullet solution to TFC's woes. Basically, Vanney is the least risky option IMO, so he gets my 'benefit of doubt' for 2015.
Well said, Yohan.

I feel like his time in Chivas can be valuable here, in that he has experience mitigating and manoeuvring through a circus. I've said before that, whilst appearing like the coolest of heads, in the heat of the moment, he can get pretty explosive on the touch lines.. so, strikes me as the perfect balance. This is important, because if he were TOO hot-headed, he might struggle to pick amongst the many battles there are to be fought at TFC -- too quiet, and he couldn't command the respect of the players, let alone anyone else of influence at the club.

Also just thought of the fact that, if we pick up someone from Europe, I can see them becoming quickly disillusioned with things, here, for one reason or another. TFC needs to have some years of stability and structure, before we can maybe accommodate someone from across the pond; if whoever we bring in from Europe has to do it all from scratch, I don't see it working out. So, for this and many of the reasons you mention above, I would be a bit nervous about bringing in a foreign coach, as of right now.

[TFC07]

I think it's risky to keep an unproven, inexperienced coach such as Vanney, but I have to agree that it's probably riskier to shake things up too much and go after a new president + head coach. We should therefore rally around Vanney, and give him our support for the 2015 season. Hopefully he'll be able to make the highest paid team in the league competitive enough to make the play-offs. I guess we'll have to see. But no more excuses, please. We can't keep going from season to season with endless excuses as to why we're not making the play-offs. LAST CHANCE given to a rookie, please. Hopefully Vanney is the right man for the job. It's a risk, but I doubt we can find an experienced coach to come into this mad house at this point anyway.


Agreed.

I am in getting experience coach camp, but reality is that it's going to be hard to find that experience coach right now. So I accept the fact that Vanney is going to be coach next season and I should support him.

[craz11]

I feel like his time in Chivas can be valuable here,

Because Chivas is the bastion of success in MLS, and has a storied history of developing great players from their youth system, right?

[OgtheDim]

Because Chivas is the bastion of success in MLS, and has a storied history of developing great players from their youth system, right?

One of the biggest questions coming out of the death of Chivas this week was who will their sizable academy group go to. LAG is salivating over them.

[Yohan]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nBNjGuQKkoc&list=UUc1qA_64TEqAX9pnGJOO0Dw

[Roca]

Every time I listen to this guy, I am more impressed. I really like what he said about building the team with players who know how to succeed in the MLS, that we welcome DPs but need to build a core that they'll fit into.

My two favourite quotes:

"We don't need a player who can do 16 stepovers and score a goal in one game and then we don't see him for 10 games." Gee, I wonder who he meant by that?

"I like my outside backs to get high." Coaching quote of the decade! :)

[speckles]

Every time I listen to this guy, I am more impressed. I really like what he said about building the team with players who know how to succeed in the MLS, that we welcome DPs but need to build a core that they'll fit into.

My two favourite quotes:

"We don't need a player who can do 16 stepovers and score a goal in one game and then we don't see him for 10 games." Gee, I wonder who he meant by that?

"I like my outside backs to get high." Coaching quote of the decade! :)

Talk is cheap, even i'm good at that. Make a living out of it. I simply believe we still do not have the core group of players we need and that is the center of the problem, that will decide if I renew.

The last two pre-seasons were disasters for differing reasons and placed this team chasing the game and season from the outset. Without a new manager now its simply too late for the start of next season. To get those players unless they are MLS will be ever more difficult if management keeps trashing Defoe and Nelson to cover their butts...wish they got that. I actually don't believe it has been fair some of the crap that has been thrown at them.

[JuliquE]

Because Chivas is the bastion of success in MLS, and has a storied history of developing great players from their youth system, right?
Well.. I'm not sure there's much to say about this, when you take pains to cut out the context of my post, which directly answers the implied question of why I would suggest his time at Chivas could be particularly useful here.

** * **

Anyway.. Yohan, you're posting the first, then last, then second video. There's still a third, if you watch on the TFC website, versus their YouTube channel, and not watching them in sequence takes a bit away from the impression he makes on you.

Here are the videos, in order, as from the TFC site:

http://www.torontofc.ca/video/2014/10/29/greg-vanney-end-year-press-conference-part-1-october-29-2014

http://www.torontofc.ca/video/2014/10/29/greg-vanney-end-year-press-conference-part-2-october-29-2014

http://www.torontofc.ca/video/2014/10/29/greg-vanney-end-year-press-conference-part-3-october-29-2014

http://www.torontofc.ca/video/2014/10/29/greg-vanney-end-year-press-conference-part-4-october-29-2014

[Roca]

I simply believe we still do not have the core group of players we need and that is the center of the problem

I agree with you there. But since day one, this is the first time I've ever heard our coach talk about what we actually need to do, rather than the usual platitudes about stepping up, owing the fans our best, nothing will suffice but victory, we just have to do better, on and on ad nauseam. Vanney seems to have a plan and I think he deserves a bit of time to implement it. At least when he opens his mouth, he doesn't spew strings of meaningless clichés. For that alone, I'll give him a chance.

In the end, how much worse can Vanney/Bez do than any of their predecessors? Maybe they'll grow into their jobs together and form a solid partnership. Of course, having said that, I'll look on with a healthy degree of skepticism as I renew my season's tickets.

[rocktml]

After watching Tim Bez interview today, I truly believe he has no idea what he is doing.

[sidvan]

One of the biggest questions coming out of the death of Chivas this week was who will their sizable academy group go to. LAG is salivating over them.
My guess is Beckham gets the new LA franchise and rolls all Chivas academy into the current Beckham academy.

[rocktml]

After watching Tim Bez interview today, I truly believe he has no idea what he is doing.

[Ultra & Proud]

Watched Vanney's clips and I am impressed with his delivery and also his content. One thing about him is that he is the first manager at TFC that I recall ever giving honest or correct critiques of the squad and/or match. It is refreshing to hear him identify problems that we all see and discuss on these boards and offer solutions even if it is just words. It's better than the manager saying we were the better team after losing 2-0 at home or blaming a ref for everything. Things we've done too much of.

But, I still am in the experienced name manager camp as I don't have faith in Vanney's longevity here and having another mid-season coaching staff change will just about do it for me. With Vanney as he is, combined with Bez who is looking a bit weasley these days, will Bez really give Vanney a season of growing pains and wait until 2016?

Vanney's TFC finished 2-6-2 in his 10 matches in charge and we all know that wasn't good enough. Now with our first 7 matches being away fixtures next year it's not unreasonable to suggest we could match that or even do worse. If we roll out of the gate with 8 points in our first 10 matches does Vanney survive? Does he get the benefit of a shitty schedule or does the GM do what he has to do to save his own job? I guess we'll see but history leads me believe and expect the worst as this is a road we've stumbled down many times before.

[MightyDM]

Vanney's interview was excellent, but it only confirms what we know - that he is a good communicator - and doesn't say much new about his ability to translate his clear thinking into good play.
i was most interested in his knocks against Nelsen: lack of fitness and locker room culture. Nelsen made exactly the same points when he began! Also, "sources" were recently quoted as saying Nelsen worked the players too hard (two a days)..... Which is actually consistent with Vanney's earlier comments about over work causing injuries, but not with his suggestion that players weren't fit enough.

[jloome]

Well.. I'm not sure there's much to say about this, when you take pains to cut out the context of my post, which directly answers the implied question of why I would suggest his time at Chivas could be particularly useful here.

** * **

Anyway.. Yohan, you're posting the first, then last, then second video. There's still a third, if you watch on the TFC website, versus their YouTube channel, and not watching them in sequence takes a bit away from the impression he makes on you.

Here are the videos, in order, as from the TFC site:

http://www.torontofc.ca/video/2014/10/29/greg-vanney-end-year-press-conference-part-1-october-29-2014

http://www.torontofc.ca/video/2014/10/29/greg-vanney-end-year-press-conference-part-2-october-29-2014

http://www.torontofc.ca/video/2014/10/29/greg-vanney-end-year-press-conference-part-3-october-29-2014

http://www.torontofc.ca/video/2014/10/29/greg-vanney-end-year-press-conference-part-4-october-29-2014

Well said. It makes a difference to finally, for the first time in eight years. listen to a coach who clearly understands what we're not doing on a technical level.

[Gringo Starr]

Just finished watching the the interviews. Really like how Vanney mentions doing things the MLS way and building with experienced MLS players but after watching the bez clips I'm wondering if its an approach that will be allowed to take flight. Bez talks about the ownership wanting to be a big brand on a global scale, being in the conversations for the big names. The ownership wants the big sell, the big name, the big marketing opportunity where as Vanney is saying he doesn't want the guy doing the step overs. When Lampart, Villa, Kaka start taking the headlines does ownership allow the MLS build or do the go out and get another big name for a marketing pissing contest?

[Yohan]

To be fair, Vanney has said that he values both (DP's & MLS players); he highlighted DC as exemplary, for their success using MLS-hardened players.. whilst making clear that he doesn't aim to copy them, entirely. Rather, he wants to take bits from all the more successful league sides into account, as he puts his team together.
might be reading too much into his comments, but I think Vanney will copy Bruce Arena his mentor's model, though with different formation

[JuliquE]

Just finished watching the the interviews. Really like how Vanney mentions doing things the MLS way and building with experienced MLS players but after watching the bez clips I'm wondering if its an approach that will be allowed to take flight. Bez talks about the ownership wanting to be a big brand on a global scale, being in the conversations for the big names. The ownership wants the big sell, the big name, the big marketing opportunity where as Vanney is saying he doesn't want the guy doing the step overs. When Lampart, Villa, Kaka start taking the headlines does ownership allow the MLS build or do the go out and get another big name for a marketing pissing contest?
To be fair, Vanney has said that he values both (DP's & MLS players); he highlighted DC as exemplary, for their success using MLS-hardened players.. whilst making clear that he doesn't aim to emulate their approach, exactly. Rather, he wants to take bits from all the more successful league sides into account, as he builds the team.

[JuliquE]

might be reading too much into his comments, but I think Vanney will copy Bruce Arena his mentor's model, though with different formation
As you say this, now, and in light of Arena going out of his way to sing Vanney's praises, I wouldn't be at all surprised if this turns out to be the case.

[Yohan]

http://www.mlssoccer.com/news/article/2014/11/12/american-exports-bob-bradley-satisfied-first-season-stabaek-ready-back-work

Bob Bradley doesnt sound like he's going anywhere. But his contract with Staebaek ends end of next season

[Canary10]

http://www.mlssoccer.com/news/article/2014/11/12/american-exports-bob-bradley-satisfied-first-season-stabaek-ready-back-work

Bob Bradley doesnt sound like he's going anywhere. But his contract with Staebaek ends end of next season


Too bad!